Rats- if only that grieving shot of F and S was clearer and Sam didn't look so odd. It would make a gorgeous (if tragic) desk top wallpaper.

Does anyone have RoTK at hand? Does Sam carry Sting around Mordor or does he give it back to Frodo after CU? I can't remember and can't find my copy.

I ask this because I think its quite possible that PJ, as he has done so often before, will ignore book canon and leave Frodo in his own clothes rather than putting him in orc clothing, apart from perhaps a cloak and sword/belt)*; and the scene looks so tragic it could easily be either Choices or Mt Doom. When I first saw it I wondered if its the scene where Frodo sleeps in Sam's lap and Gollum watches; but that wouldn't explain why Sam looks so grieved.


* I mention this as pure speculation since Jackson's orc clothing is very bizarre and very "macho", unless they choose it carefully Frodo could end up looking very odd instead of immensely more tragic (which I believe would be Tolkein's intent ie the clash between virtuous hobbit and foul orc clothing).
It may also have come to the Powers that be's attention that there's an awful lot of women watching the disintegration of the hobbit's soft clothing with great interest.;) Thick orc gear could seriously interfere with this.
I'm only half kidding here- didn't they auction off some fabric and it was very popular???

Nice to see so many of the troops return. :)

Prim

Originally posted by Cadmo

Does anyone have RoTK at hand? Does Sam carry Sting around Mordor or does he give it back to Frodo after CU? I can't remember and can't find my copy.


Hi, Prim! :)

If I'm not mistaken, I believe Sam returns Stong to Frodo after CU. I seem to remember Sam himself taking an orc sword when he gets clothes for Frodo.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. :D

{{{{{FACULTY}}}}}

I looked it up myself this afternoon when I noticed that Sam had Sting. In CU, Sam gives Frodo an orc blade to go along with his orc clothing, but I cannot find any passage that says Sam gives Sting back to Frodo.

Later, in Mordor, Frodo tells Sam, "But Sting I give to you. I have got an orc-blade, but I do not think it will be my part to strike any blow again." So I think that Sam carries Sting from CU to Mount Doom.

And yes, Cadmo...many of us chicks are avidly tracking the disintegration of the soft clothing. I'm still mourning the loss of my beloved tweedy coat in TTT!!!

Ahhh! Thanks, Elda. I had it backward then, I guess. (No big surprise there :p) :D

And a little something just to add to the fun :)

No lovely soft waistcoat in that picture as far as we can tell correct?


Apparently he lost it somewhere between Osgiliath and


HERE.....

I'm at work. I shouldn't be here. But darn it all, how I can I *not* be here?! :o

Thank you thank you thank you tg for posting that, and thanks to all who'd tracked it down! The image is flipped, isn't it? Sting should be hanging on Sam's left. And I think I can see Frodo's cloak on the ground ... but still wondering where's Sam's cloak is. I'm agreeing with Ele here about what this scene must be :(

Best not to think about that too much while I'm at work though!

-----------

Some other quick notes while I have the computer ...

MsU! {{{MsU}}} :) :k Blossom, hope the finances clear up soon. Can't have you deprived this way!

Originally posted by Maeglian
All of this *is* probably meant to show that Faramir is very conflicted and hasn't *really* decided what to do yet, despite his words to the opposite..... it just doesn't seem altogether clear to me.

I just thought it meant Faramir's a sensible, logical fellow who's yet to comprehend that the Ring can cause that much trouble. :p After all, where are the hobbits going to run to? The Nazgul's flying around, his men are petrified, he's got greater things to worry about right then, and he has no idea that Frodo would be so affected by the Nazgul. As for why he doesn't hold on to the Ring himself, I don't think he would want to. He felt the temptation in HA; he knows that wasn't 'right'. If the Ring is safer in the hands of its bearer, then best to leave it there.

And anyway, wouldn't any of Faramir's men be just as tempted as he himself is to take the Ring? Shouldn't he worry over one of them taking it on the way to MT?

But then, Faramir's decision to let Frodo go with the Ring after Frodo has demonstrated how close he is to falling completely under the Ring's influence, is still my pet peeve as that osgiliath scene now stands.

Forgive me now for what I'm about to say ... <gulp> but uh ... aren't those nitpicks from the book itself? Best moments of Frodo angst in those chapters of course ;) but the whole Faramir letting them off to Mordor never sat well with me in the book. Just talking tactics, Faramir's pretty much letting the hobbits walk into certain doom, based purely on the faith that this Frodo chap is telling the truth and not being delusional (Frodo's swooning and fainting spell is great angst, but if I were Faramir it wouldn't have impressed me really. "This is a Ringbearer? How'd he even get this far?"). I tend to suspend my disbelief that a wise Captain from Gondor would take the word of an inexperienced and clearly weakening halfling from the Shire there. It's nice to read and all, but if I start to really think about it, it all kinda falls apart for me.

<tries vainly to hide from flinging trouts>

The movie -- just from a movie perspective, my take on it is that Faramir now sees that any chance of using the Ring is futile - it's not a weapon at all for one thing, it's a bloody nuisance - *and* he sees that the Ring, despite the terrific chance there, had failed to destroy Frodo. It's the visual evidence for viewers and Faramir that Frodo is stronger than the Ring. Anyway, he can't provide cover for Frodo since he's needed elsewhere - we do see the war raging after all, but he can let Frodo go. Whether Frodo makes it or not, at least he won't hold Frodo back anymore.

Anyway, that's just my take on it. It's a very TV movie approach to it, IMO, but oh well. Whatever works.



edit: thanks for the pic, enai. did we ever speculate where this could be?

about the coat - we do know where Frodo lost it! it's behind his head as he napped in the opening scene for the coney sequence. we see the coat one last time when he goes to his/Sam's bag to get the pan.

Ainon


No trouts here. Unless they're aiming for both of us :p

I agree 100%. How's that for the complete opposite of a good trouting.


While I enjoy that section of the book as much as the next person, it became less and less believable to me as I got older. So I started looking a bit deeper into all that was going on there.

Among other things I have come to the conclusion (looks quickly around to find nearest exit and starts edging that way) that Frodo does not finally reveal all to Faramir because they have reached an understanding but because (checking distance again to exit) Faramir had finally succeded in wearing him down to the point that he was too exhausted to fight it anymore. In fact (one hand on the door now) the entire encounter prior to "The Forbidden Pool" with Faramir was one long interrogation session using a number of classic methods. (opening door ever so slightly) A little bullying, a few very leading questions that provide information no matter how they are answered, feed them and get a little liquor into them, get them to let down their guard by talking of mundane things such as home and family, (Ainon, DUCK!) and next thing they know they're singing like canaries.

Enai runs as fast as she can dodging flying trout as she goes.

Ah, who is the "they" you two are running from, hmm? :D :cool:

Ainon's not quite right. Frodo's swooning was not because his journey and burden finally wore him down. With Sam's help, Frodo still had the strength to resist the evil of the Orcs, the Ring, fight off Gollum's tricks, and endure the physical hardships of the journey, and he was doing fine. Faramir was impressed with that, and he certainly saw that Frodo had the strength to continue. No, the final blow to Frodo is Faramir's kindness; it was the last thing he expected, especially given Boromir's behavior. Enai is right about the interrogation. Here's this big strong manly blue-Eyed gravelly-voiced he-man *AHEM* *COUGH* Captain of Gondor being all sneaky, then menacing, until he gets his info. But then Faramir reveals his true nature and goes soft at the end. Frodo was unable to fight off Faramir's love. *SWO* oops. Well, blast, I'll swoon anyway. :p

Frodo was figuratively and literally exhausted, and Faramir offered a figurative and literal safe bed for him. That's why he swooned. And that's why *I* swooned.

EDIT: Sorry ainon and enai, I should have added all the IMO's. I don't want to sound like my interpretation of Faz is the only one.

ALSO, why is New Line officially releasing those calendar pictures, we wonders? If they were unwanted leaks, then they would try take the pix down, or, if they were tolerating the leak, they would just do nothing, and let the geeks do the scan-and-analyze, right? But, they're uploading a 23 MG file just for us, so either it's intentional, or they decided to make a leak official. But why? I can't imagine their starting RotK publicity so soon, what with TTT still in theatres and Oscars yet to be won. Just what is their intent? Are they "apologizing" for TTT? Obliquing praising PJ? The more I learn the less I understand. :confused:

Haven't gotten caught up AT all... but wanted to submit the following for your consideration.

The more I look at that shot, the more I like it BETTER, reversed. For some reason, Sean (the only one whose face you can really see) looks more 'himself' in the reversed shot. Just putting this up for your consideration.

http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/CirithUngolrev.jpg

This picture has lit more of a fire under my angsty heart than anything since Weathertop.... I am hopeless!

Ariel

Originally posted by erendis
ALSO, why is New Line officially releasing those calendar pictures, we wonders?
I think they're making the pictures widely available so that the existing calendars aren't all sold for a gazillion dollars on E-bay. Look at how that one guy that Ariel ordered hers from raised the price from $30 to $100 (with calendars with errors going for more) in just a few hours, and then saw them all disappear. TORN's front page (which New Line actually reads, as opposed to our speculations... ) says the calendars were promotional items for people in the movie business, not supposed to be for sale.

Mel

tg said:
yes, Vita, I always assumed the reason movie-Frodo lied was to protect Gollum. Could I ask why you thought he was doing it before you came to that conclusion, as that's the only reason that ever occurred to me?

tg, I had no other explanation for it. I haven't seen the film enough yet to have another reading. So I guess I'm with you! ;) I agree about Oliver Twist, too. Couldn't force meself to watch the whole thing.

Ariel: That picture seems more "correct" to me reversed, too. Thanks for posting it. "For your consideration"? Are we allowed to vote for Oscars? I know who *I'm* voting for, and the film hasn't even been completed yet!!

Blossom
What I was NOT so impressed with when I came back here were those pics of the pheasant shoot!!!

Sorry to go back to this subject again in the middle of the wonderful RotK speculations.

(((Blossom))) Maybe this will make you feel a bit better about it or maybe not!

As a vegetarian too, I would rather not see Elijah or any of the other LotR actors on a pheasant shoot. However, to give them their due, if it was a pheasant hunt, then I would imagine they were going to eat anything they caught, as apposed to fox hunting where it is purely for the joy of killing. So, though I don’t embrace the idea, I don’t see it as any worse than somebody going fishing or even buying meat from the supermarket. And they do all look mighty dapper in their hunting outfits :) :p

Originally posted by Ariel
http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/CirithUngolrev.jpg



Ariel, bless you! This is so much better. I can see both of Frodo's hands now. Oh. His lips are so pale ...

This picture has lit more of a fire under my angsty heart than anything since Weathertop.... I am hopeless!

I know. Me too. I'm imagining what the shot would be like from over Sam's shoulder. I keep thinking of that little shot we have of Mikey in the Ice Storm, only this time it is Frodo ...


-------

Erm ... about the other matter ...

Enai - Hey, leave the door open for me! :D

erendis - oh, I know why Frodo swooned. ;) It's still on my wishlist of things to see, even though I don't think I'd technically like to see it in the film because it might not work very well (now how's that for very confused :p ). Frodo-centrically and from the angst standpoint I love those chapters. :)

My problem is when I try thinking too hard (always a bad idea), looking at things from Faramir's POV ... why would he believe Frodo? Why let Frodo go unprotected into Mordor? What are the chances for Frodo not to be caught by the enemy and for the Ring to be returned to Sauron? I know what Tolkien told ... but <gulp> there are times when I don't know if I buy it ... :eek: But I never have problems with Faramir's character himself. {{{erendis}}} :)

that pic is so touching,really,makes me sad,but still happy,they are such good friends...:)

Originally posted by ainon
...the whole Faramir letting them off to Mordor never sat well with me in the book. Just talking tactics, Faramir's pretty much letting the hobbits walk into certain doom, based purely on the faith that this Frodo chap is telling the truth and not being delusional

It's just occurred to me that in the book, Tolkien makes it clear, to the readers and to the characters, that Gandalf is an acquaintance and counsellor to both Frodo and Faramir. I don't have the book with me so I can't quote any scenes, but I do know this is something that could boost the mutual trust between them..."any friend of Gandalf's is a friend of mine," so to speak. Faramir might let Frodo and Sam walk off to their doom, perhaps in part because of his trust of Gandalf...although even so, Faramir tells Frodo, "I do not think Gandalf would have wished for this." (my paraphrase.)

I wonder if Book Faramir's confidence in Frodo might have something to do with Boromir as well? I've always felt that Faramir had a pretty good idea of what his brother was like..."Alas for Boromir, it was too sore a trial!" Knowing that a powerful warrior like Boromir went after the Ring...and that Frodo was still strong or wily enough to escape him...might make Faramir confident that there's more to these little halflings than meets the eye.

As for why Faramir trusts that Frodo is telling the truth...well, I think we have to remember we're dealing with a story, a myth. In real life, we get the wool pulled over our eyes by clever liars all the time, and everyone's got something up their sleeves. In a story, especially a great, epic myth like this, the good guys usually look and act like good guys, and they always have some sort of keen power of perception that allows them to see another's "Elvish air," or "an air of far-off Numenor!"

Just my 2-cents.

Originally posted by erendis
No, the final blow to Frodo is Faramir's kindness; it was the last thing he expected, especially given Boromir's behavior. Enai is right about the interrogation. Here's this big strong manly blue-Eyed gravelly-voiced he-man *AHEM* *COUGH* Captain of Gondor being all sneaky, then menacing, until he gets his info. But then Faramir reveals his true nature and goes soft at the end. Frodo was unable to fight off Faramir's love.

OMG, yes.:( That is absolutely right, and it pretty much sums up why I love their encounter more than anything else in the book. If only Tolkien had let us see what happened when they meet again, after all was over.......

(Thanks for the welcome, everyone!)

thanks for the info Hallah and Eldalevia. Its so frustrating when you can't find your book!!! It's got to be here somewhere.:mad:

I won't weigh in on the Faramir thing since I'm still so hugely disgruntled by the film except to say no trouts coming from this direction. :D I agree with Elda's point that as it is an epic myth it requires a lot more suspension of disbelief than most novels .
Laugh; just had a thought: here we are quite cheerfully talking about halflings, 500 year old once-hobbits, Rings of Power, Flaming Eyes, etc and then.... agonising over credible human motivation. I think there's no group quite as satisfyingly insane as Tolkein geeks. :D:k I just love this board.

Hi maggie!!- another kiwi. Gosh if I count both my sisters ( waves to Azalea Lurker at Large ) then with a few more recruits the kiwis can stage a Faculty takeover. :eek: ;)

Originally posted by Cadmo
here we are quite cheerfully talking about halflings, 500 year old once-hobbits, Rings of Power, Flaming Eyes, etc and then.... agonising over credible human motivation. I think there's no group quite as satisfyingly insane as Tolkein geeks. :D:k I just love this board.


LOL, Cadmo! Isn't it wonderful?

Hi, Maggie! I have a large soft spot in my heart for Kiwis, since my (much too brief) visit to your beautiful country recently. Everyone I met there was so lovely. Except for the cop outside of Greymouth who caught my husband in a 'speed trap', and gave him a ticket. :mad: :rolleyes: But then, cops are the same everywhere, I suppose.

Nothing to add to the current discussion. My brain turns to mush every time I see the 'Pieta' Sam-and-Fro picture.

Tg - thanks so much for your recommendations regarding 'Huck Finn' and 'The Good Son.' I bow to your superior knowledge on Elijah's past work and will get 'Huck Finn' first.:)

However, I have just checked on Amazon UK, and 'The Good Son' is indeed listed in the DVD section for EW; in fact, it comes in at number two of Elijah's most frequently requested DVD's, behind 'Forever Young'.

I don't know why, but whenever I log on at amazon, they recommend 'Harry Potter' to me!:rolleyes: I have only ever ordered EW related material - it must be the fantasy-related link between HP and LOTR.

EE, yes, I know, and I totally agree with you about the fishing, fox-hunting and buying meat etc. - but I am a total sop when it comes to animals. I want to believe the very best of Elijah, as he really seems such a well-adjusted, pleasant young man. Must be those naughty Brits Dom and Billy having a bad influence on him! That said, I would never attempt to inflict my own beliefs on others, and he must have had his own reasons for joining in - if he even did. It's just that he seems to really love dogs - and dolphins - and I can't see any difference between dogs, cats, cows, birds, fish or anything else - but that's just me, so I'll shut up about it and not mention it again. Promise.

That pic - I was messing around with it last night until I gave myself a headache, trying to zoom in on 'the hand', and make it clearer. The closer I got the grainier it became, but to me it really does look like Fro's fingers protruding from fabric. But then again I'm probably way off.
Ainon - Yes, I do feel deprived not being able to see TTT again for at least another three weeks. It's mental torture, that's what it is!!! And I can't really contribute anything to the brilliant discussion on one paltry viewing, except to repeat yet again how wonderful Elijah was. Thanks for the concern, but I expect I'll live. Back to the pic -yes, Ainon, Fro's lips are INCREDIBLY pale there!!! OMG, poor baby!!! You see, EE, I still love him really. As I am zooming in and out of said picture last night , trying to get our Fro and Sam's ghastly situation into perspective - all for the sake of research, and my own angsty curiosity, you all understand - Hubby looks across at me and enquires what I am doing. I explain, and ask if he can make out aforementioned fingers. His reply? 'Shall I call for the men in white coats to come and take you away now?' Cheek!!! He thinks we're all mad, but is still keen to see TTT a second time, bless him.:) Btw, he has decided that Gimli is his favourite character.

Well, I must be off. 'The War' is on here in the UK tonight at 11.35pm, and if EW is on TV, whether I have the DVD or not, I just have to watch! MsU, I will look and listen out for any 'twin' reference in there.

Viola, Prim, Azalea - Blossom rushes off, crying 'The Kiwi's are coming... the Kiwi's are coming.' And you're all very welcome!

Bye.

Hullo, all! {{Faculty}}

--pheasants

It strikes me that Elijah (being the very shy and well-brought up lad that he is) would not consider making a public fuss no matter what his private feelings were about the hunt. :) And it also strikes me, that ifBB and DM had arranged the outing, again, he wouldn't fuss no matter what.

It almost seems (gross speculation) that despite being the star, he is NOT the strongest personality among the hobbits. I mean, Sean feels compelled to protect him, like a big brother. BB and DM find it awfully easy to fool and mislead him ( tig game among others) and remember, he is the YOUNGEST of the guys. So he may have been only tagging along with his friends. :)

---Faramir

On this I always thought (IMO) that although Faramir didn't like the option of letting Frodo go with the Ring, he could find no better alternative. I always thought he did believe Frodo was telling the truth and that was due both to Frodo's demeanor and Sam's demeanor as well.

Seems clear Sam didn't mean to blurt out the truth and both of their reactions would have convinced Faz that he was hearing all the truth at last. And he doesn't like letting Frodo go with the Ring...but he can't think of any better alternatives. Obviously, it can't come to Minas Tirith...all the powerful Wise in M.E. have refused it already...what is left to do?:eek: Faramir can't go with Frodo, he is needed in Minas Tirith more urgently than ever. So he had no choice but to trust that Frodo was correct and he did not actually KNOW anything specific about Cirith Ungol.

-----Movie Fro's Lie

I really disliked this. :mad: I saw it as movie Frodo thinking 'I'm already in enough trouble, why ask for more by admitting a relationship with a creature Faramir doesn't like?' Although the book's 'chance companion' is not 100% correct, book Frodo does say "I have him in my care for a time" . And that conveys a whole different world of meaning than "He is bound to me and I to him."

If Frodo's motives are so good, then why is Sam so surprised at his response? Sam is startled to hear Frodo lie, and Frodo looks back at him almost guiltily.

However, I like tg's interpretation so much better, I will try to imprint it in my brain. ;)

----Spoiler Pics

I am really hoping that these do mean that New Line is paying attention to the fans. I don't go to other boards, though. Those of you who do--is there a lot of outspoken disappointment over Frodo/Sam/Faramir? Is that why we're getting these?

Huge scan of that ROTK pic at War of the Ring here. (http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/rotkgallery/imagepages/image3.shtml)

It is so gorgeous...

THE LIE ABOUT GOLLUM - I never had a problem with Frodo ‘lying’ to Faramir about Gollum in the movie. To me, his statements in the book are prevarication, at best: “He is only a chance companion met upon our road, and I am not answerable for him.” (IMHO, this is as much a lie as denying him outright in the movie – Gollum is far far from a chance companion.) In the book, Faramir continues to question Frodo partly because “ the Captain was not satisfied with Frodo’s account of himself at several points”; he could tell Frodo was clearly trying to hide certain things from him. And in the book, at the Forbidden Pool, this is reinforced when Faramir says “In all our words together you have not once spoken of your gangrel companion.” Clearly, Frodo has been trying to hide / disguise his connection with Gollum.

In the movie, even in my first viewing I understood that saying there was no third member of their party was a way of protecting Gollum, not of betraying him, just as Frodo’s prevarication about and avoidance of discussing Gollum was in the book. (If they don’t think he’s important / don’t think he exists, they won’t go looking for him and potentially harm him.) This is a dangerous ploy for a captive, and I believe movie Frodo knows it – Faramir clearly doesn’t believe him, and if this is proved to be a lie, it could threaten their own safety, by reducing their credibility or angering their captors. Yet Frodo still makes this choice – and even when seeing the movie the first time, I thought Sam’s glance at Frodo was due to his knowledge that Frodo had potentially put them in greater danger by trying to protect Gollum, and he was questioning that choice. I saw Faramir’s recognition of this in the look in his eyes and the way he raised his eyebrows – Sam’s look had the effect, of course, of letting Faramir know this creature was important to Frodo. And so, when movie Faramir did find Gollum, he did not kill him right away – he used it as an opportunity to test Frodo further. (Another point for Frodo in movie Faramir’s eyes? Putting the safety of a companion above his own?)

BTW, would this be a bad time to say I love cats and dogs and horses with a passion, but have no problem knocking a fish over the head and frying it up for supper?? ;)

I agree with Narya's interpretation of Frodo's lie about Gollum--I think Frodo also hoped that by shielding Gollum from Faramir and his men, whom he had no reason to trust, he might also keep from them exactly the information that movie Faramir got from Gollum after all--knowledge of the Ring and its whereabouts. Clearly Frodo knew that although neither he nor Sam would speak of it, Gollum could not be expected to keep secret the driving force of his life for the last 500 years.

Sam's reaction to Frodo's saying "There was no other" was the classic movie response to your buddy's lie in a tight spot--Sam blew it with that look and gave the game away.

But, Narya, Gollum IS a companion met by chance on the road. There are few other ways Frodo could describe him that would be both truthful and NOT mention the ring. Frodo manages both these aims without telling a frank lie.

And Frodo goes on to say: "If you come on him, spare him. Bring him or send him to us. He is only a wretched gangrel creature, but I have him under my care for a while." Again, literally truthful but gives quite a different impression than : "There is no other."

And I don't see how Frodo thinks he will protect Gollum by pretending he doesn't know him. Faramir already knows he exists...since he's taken them captive, it's logical to assume he will probably try to take Gollum captive as well...Frodo denying that he knows him certainly is not going to make Faramir say "Oh, well, since you say that, it must have been a figment of our imagination and we'll just forget about him then." :rolleyes:

And Frodo knows that Gollum will try to follow them. He can't not, drawn to the Ring as he is. That makes it practically a guarantee that Gollum will get close to Henneth Annun. If Faramir does believe Frodo--that Gollum is nothing to him, then he'd just kill him as an intruder. And if he's captured instead, then Frodo will be shown to have lied.

No matter how you slice it, I can't see that Frodo's lie making any logical sense. It increases the risk to Gollum--not decreases it. And damages Frodo's honor to boot.

Further, I completely disagree about Frodo lying in the books: He says quite plainly: "I told no lies, and of the truth all I could."
That says it all, unless you take the position he is lying when he says that. :rolleyes:

Not saying everything possible on every subject Faramir brings up is no more the 'absolute truth' or admirable than what Frodo does, which is to tell all the truth he deems wise.

And Faramir agrees: "You spoke with skill in a hard place and wisely, it seemed to me."

I chalk movie Frodo's action up to being less mature than book-Frodo. I can understand it, but I still see it as being quite a departure from the book.

For those who do not venture into the harem thread, the long-awaited phial pic...

http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/calendarfull/images/m.jpg

Fantastic. :cool:

Stormy, I think the difference lies mainly in what we view as being a lie. I think in our definitions we may be drawing a different line along the continuum between truth and lie. I use a fairly broad definition of lying that includes half-truths, prevarications, avoidance, serious down-playing, technical truths that are worded with the intent to mislead, etc. I understand these are used for difference reasons, and just as with outright lies, also understand them as not necessarily being ‘wrong’ dependent on the circumstances. Shades of grey, and all that. ;) However, my kids and my staff know they might as well tell me the whole story, because I don’t view anything else as being the actual truth! And they also know I don’t freak out about lies, unless they are deliberate and malicious – otherwise, on important matters, we just keep working through the partial truths until we get to the real issues and the whole truth.

In the book, I don’t see Frodo’s ‘chance companion’ as even a half-truth – IMHO it is a significant prevarication. Gollum’s been stalking them since Moria – he’s a known murderer – he’s obsessed with the ring and they know he poses a potential danger to them - he is their guide, and by necessity they are following his lead and counsel as to how to enter Mordor. To me, a chance companion is someone you meet at the bus stop, and have a casual conversation with on the way to your destination. Perhaps it is the meanings we each ascribe to the language that is used that is the main difference in how we see this.

The Phial
Wowsville. :cool: Our boy looking like the hero he is! And which PJ should have allowed him to be in FOTR.

The Lie
Frodo does not lie to Faramir in the book. He is economical with the truth ... :p ... but he does NOT tell Faramir an outright falsehood. I don't despise Movie!Frodo for doing so, he is doing what he thinks is best ... but Book!Frodo is of course far wiser. And neither he nor Book!Faramir ('I would not even trap an orc with a falsehood') tell lies.

My review of 'The War'
BBC1 showed it last night and I video'd it, not having seen it before. It's a good film, not outstanding, but I enjoyed it a heck of a lot more than Elijah's other films, and he is wonderful in it. What a feisty little bugger Stu is! :) I loved him to bits. :p

I enjoyed the evocation of 1970 Mississipi, and all the other kids were excellent, including Lexi Randall, who plays Stu's sister Lidia. It gets rather schmaltzy and sentimental in places, but not as bad as I'd feared ... Elijah's is the standout performance, no question. :)

Having seen how GOOD he is when he's being feisty, it makes me want to trout PJ even harder for not letting us see more of Feisty Frodo in FOTR. Now I know that Elijah could have done 'by Elbereth and Luthien the Fair, you shall have neither the Ring nor me!' at the Ford scene, and frankly it makes me want to scream with frustration. What we got instead in FOTR was Big Blue-Eyed Helpless Fainting Frodo. Blech. Blah. Pearl trouts PJ!

Oh, OK, our dear Geekboy can't help his gorgeous, mesmerising Big Blue Eyes. ;) But Movie!Frodo should have been more of a Feisty Little Bugger, not a Whiny Little Bugger. :rolleyes: And yes, I'm talking about both FOTR and TTT.

Hello maggie! Welcome and enjoy your stay at lovely Khazaddum! :)

Bunnie ... thank you. Are we lucky enough to keep getting increasingly larger versions of this pic every day? If this keeps up, by the end of this week I'll be totally spent! :p

Blossom - I see his hands down by his sides. Ariel's pic is the best so far, I think. Look down to the right, by Sam's thigh. You can just make out a thumb.

Ele - thank you too. That phial pic is just beautiful.

Btw, Harry Knowles' ramblings about the new ROTK pics can be read here (http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/display.cgi?id=14138). Mild spoiler warning/rumours.



Prim:
Laugh; just had a thought: here we are quite cheerfully talking about halflings, 500 year old once-hobbits, Rings of Power, Flaming Eyes, etc and then.... agonising over credible human motivation.

LOL! Good point. And thanks. I needed that little reality trout. ;)

stormyday :
And Frodo goes on to say: "If you come on him, spare him. Bring him or send him to us. He is only a wretched gangrel creature, but I have him under my care for a while." Again, literally truthful but gives quite a different impression than : "There is no other."

And I don't see how Frodo thinks he will protect Gollum by pretending he doesn't know him. Faramir already knows he exists...since he's taken them captive, it's logical to assume he will probably try to take Gollum captive as well...Frodo denying that he knows him certainly is not going to make Faramir say "Oh, well, since you say that, it must have been a figment of our imagination and we'll just forget about him then." :rolleyes:


Just my take on it: movie Faramir describes Gollum as a rather unfavourable creature, implying rather negative attributes to him. Frodo has to be quick: he's got to convince Faramir that he and Sam are not orc spies. Frodo could say, "Spare Gollum", but Faramir seems to have formed an opinion about Gollum already - that anyone associated with Gollum can't be up to any good. Frodo's not going to win an argument there; well, he could try, but he needs to establish who's side he's on first, and being associated with a chap with an ill-favoured look greatly damages his case ;) and he must surely dread what these men will do to Gollum. So IMO he does the quickest and best thing in his situation - he avoids the issue, hopes Gollum will have the sense to save himself, and declares that there is no other.

But of course Faramir knows Frodo's lying, and can immediately guess why. And Frodo knows Faramir knows. IMHO his reaction at the Forbidden Pool later had to do with dismay that Gollum had managed to track him down, rather than the fact that Faramir's found Gollum. There's a stalemate, and personally, I believe Faramir respects Frodo for not snitching. Anyway, Narya says it all better. :)

Not quite related to the current discussion but there's this little thing I just so absolutely love about that part of the movie: in the scene leading to the Forbidden Pool - Faramir standing over Frodo, Frodo waking up and just quietly looking up at Faramir, no startling, no fear. And when Faramir tells him to follow, he gets up and goes. No sign of weakness, nothing to give the game away. Frodo must have had to been through quite an interrogation earlier, but he had revealed absolutely nothing to Faramir, and if he has to go through another round of interrogation now, then so be it. I just love that scene and what it says about Frodo.

About Sam ... each time I see his reaction to Frodo's "There is no other", I think - 'Sam, don't play poker'. :D


I chalk movie Frodo's action up to being less mature than book-Frodo. I can understand it, but I still see it as being quite a departure from the book.

Oh, but that's not giving credit to movie Frodo! He was brilliant there. Notice how he casually changes the subject and starts talking about the seven companions they had, and that they all set out from Rivendell. He mentions the loss in Moria, but doesn't mention Gandalf's name, presuming perhaps that Faramir wouldn't know of Gandalf - which is a pity, for mention of Gandalf's name might have helped Frodo somewhat. He mentions his other companions, emphasising the different races, ensuring he's secured Faramir's attention and curiousity. Then he gets to the men, and makes a point to name drop "Aragorn son of Arathorn and Boromir of Gondor". If there're names that Faramir would recognise surely it'd be those two. Then notice the surprise on Frodo's face when Faramir reacts to Boromir's name the way he does.

I agree it's a departure from the book, but the essential elements of the story remains, IMO, and Frodo impressed me lots. Anyway, just my take on things. :)


edit: Not arguing with anyone over movieFrodo - we all see him differently after all :) -- but I honestly don't get where the 'movie Frodo is whiny' comes from? (sadly I can see why some people think book Frodo is whiny :rolleyes: ) But movie Frodo ... the fellow barely speaks ... when does he whine? :p :D

[Completely off-topic] I clicked on the AICN link for Harry Knowles's comments. It's a long time since I looked at AICN. Their 'Talkback' is hysterical. Talk about Beavis and Butthead! Wouldn't care to read it too often though ... !

That high-res ROTK pic of Gollum ... for the first time EVER, I am reminded of Yoda. :p [/completely off-topic]

Stormyday, you asked a question a few posts about about whether there is widespread disappointment about Frodo and Faramir in TTT on other messageboards. You betcha! My sister-in-law Diamond of Long Cleeve began a thread at TORC on how she felt about Frodo's portrayal in TTT, and a lot of people chimed in to say they agreed.

Not every Frodo-fan feels the same way. But yes, I was not the only Frodo-fan who was genuinely ticked off by TTT's Frodo ( I have calmed down a lot now and am much more peaceable about the whole thing). Basically, I should have been more outspoken about Frodo's treatment in FOTR. A lot of people think he was too wimpy in that, and that was where the real damage was done. If anything, TTT Frodo is an improvement. But a lot of people obviously think that TTT Sam (who is of course marvellous) outshone TTT Frodo.

As for Movie!Faramir, fan reaction has been pretty negative. I really like him now, but I think PJ misjudged that one. :p

ainon, you asked, 'when does he whine?' Good Lord, does he ever stop? :D

Oh, OK, I'll be serious. My worst moment in TTT comes when Frodo, horrified at having attacked Sam, drops Sting (now that's a good moment) and then he says (and this is the bit which sets my teeth on edge', in a really, REALLY whiny way, 'I can't do this, Sam.'

I feel like slapping him. Yes, that's right. My beloved Frodo Baggins, as played by Elijah Wood. I FEEL LIKE SLAPPING HIM.

Purely my own highly subjective reaction. ;)

Darn it, I have these interesting thoughs in my head and I can't articulate them. Okay, short version: I didn't keep exact time, but it took me at least 10 minutes to read over this discussion about Frodo's Lie. Could Movie Frodo think all those thoughts, in that little pause when Faramir says "speak?" I don't think so. Now, Book Frodo would be able to, because -- and this is a thought thought for me to articulate -- Book Frodo had days of Tolkien's thoughts to draw on, and time to think.

In other words, book Frodo looks all fine and intelligent and believable, if the reader has time to think with him. If I wanted, I could get to that part of TTT, close the book, take 10 minutes to think about what Narya and Stormy posted, re-open the book, and find that only two seconds have past. Frodo's still there, and Faramir is still there, patiently waiting for Frodo's response. It's like Frodo can stop time. In fact, this is what Tolkien must have done, when he was writing. He constantly stopped time to give his characters exactly the right words. In a book, if the character seems to come up with something mature and smart in those 2 LONG seconds, to us it won't seem fake, because we took a few minutes to digest it too.

Up on the screen, it's a totally different situation. Frodo's got 2 real-time seconds; he can't stop time up there. Sam is waiting, Faramir is impatient, the clock is ticking. If I were a non-reader, I would have been fine The Lie, because you know what? If I had two seconds, that's what *I* would come up with too. However, if Movie Frodo, who has about 2 seconds, managed to say what Book Frodo, who had 10 minutes, said, he would look fine to the book reader (because the book reader had put in his 10 minutes previously), while he would look too far smart to the non-reader. Of course you can retain some of the Frodo's wisdom, but in tight situations, can you retain all of it? If you did, Movie Frodo would sound too smart, too unreal, and contrived.

I know this is making no sense at all and I hope someone can explain this better. But it think it would help to explain why it seems all the movie characters are less mature than in the book.

-------------
On an easier note, Meryl(?) asked somewhere if the Frodo Faramir discontent was widespread. Spork just posted a comic strip that in the Harem that listed Faramir as a bad plot change. I've heard of discussions and debates about this situation on TORC, TORN, and there's a big thread on CoE about it. keep it up ladies. The more concern we raise, the more likely PJ is to give the matter some real screentime in RotK.

Oooohhhh Ele! Thanks for posting the Phial Pic! *sigh*
Uh, does anyone know how to remove drool from the keyboard? :D

Sheesh. Talk about a reality check. Bleah.

After reading the many thoughtful posts about Whiny Wimpy Movie Frodo (whether or not I agree;) ), and the relative lack of effusive critical praise for Elwood's stunning performance thus far, I have come to a shocking (for me, anyway) conclusion:

We may have to wait years to watch Elijah pick up a Best Actor Oscar statuette. Because it probably is not going to happen for him in ROTK.

*sigh* :(

Erendis, I see what you are saying and I agree, in the "real time" of the film of course no one has much time to think, and Frodo is under such stress as it is, it's conceivable he said the first non-incriminating thing that came into his head. I'm completely sure I would have done the same in his situation, and I still think he hoped to get away with it.

You know this reminds me that there is another difference between book and film Frodo that reflects more positively on film Frodo, if you think about it. In the book Frodo explicitly considers letting Faramir's men kill Gollum and "be rid of the miserable voice for ever." Of course he doesn't do it! But in the film, as he hesitates, I see only indecision and pity on his face....

Pearl, I don't think anything anyone says about movie Frodo will console you. I just want to say that though I am not having such a hard time accepting that the films are an interpretation, not a re-creation, of the books, I do sympathize and wish I could help.:( I would not pass up the opportunity to love these films for anything.

Now I've only been here for a little while but you all have already got me thinking about things I never considered before, and so while running this morning I found myself considering hobbit clothing and gear for the first time.:p

Some pages back someone wondered what happened to Frodo and Sam's stuff after their release by Faramir since it looked like Frodo no longer had his pack post-Osgiliath. But by the time he slid down the slope to rescue Sam, if he still had his pack then (which we know must be nearly empty as Sam has all the food), he had to be wearing his cloak OVER it or he would never have been able to pull off that little camouflage trick. (Can anyone remember or verify?) So maybe he's still doing that at the end of TTT, though why he bothers to keep it when, as I said, it must be empty..... and why Sam isn't hiding *his* under his cloak.... well, it's a thought, anyway.

As for their coats in the film, the hobbits are going South and it must not only be getting warmer (Ithilien is springlike already in early March) but they must also realize that the last stop on the train is a volcano, so no coats needed there.;)

As for why Frodo isn't wearing his coat in the Choices photo, well, he's not wearing it in the Phial photo either. The only question, I guess, is what happened to his vest (though I believe these are staged photos, not screen caps, so they might not be accurate to the shot footage in every detail). Perhaps we'll see him take the vest off at the top of the pass, when he and Sam are rather heated from the climb.

...Oh be still my heart. I can't believe how geeky I'm becoming.:eek:

Oh, Goldie, please say it ain’t so!!! I will have to restrain myself from doing serious damage to my tv if someone like Adam Sandler :rolleyes: or Eminem :rolleyes: even gets nominated for a best actor Oscar before EW does! I have read enough critical comments about Wood’s performance in the two LoTR films so far to accept that the industry will overlook his fine work in these movies. But I’m hoping against hope that RoTK will show the world his “quality.” Didn’t no less a connoisseur than Ian McKellen say that Elijah was amazing in the third movie? I think it may be too much to expect tha he will WIN an academy award for RoTK, but I surely hope that he will be nominated (and not for any stinking supporting actor category, either.)

Pictures like the one of Frodo with the phial (must not swoon…) give me hope that the writing in this film will let Film!Frodo morph into Book!Frodo.

Not to ruin anyone’s day, but while trolling through the IMDB today, I discovered that Elwood’s name is no longer linked to their page for “Thumbsucker”!!!! And a Keanu Reeves *shudder* website (what I do in the name of research…:rolleyes: ) is saying that KR will play the title role!!! This is v. confusing, since I distinctly remember EW saying that this film is coming up for him during the PR blitz he just completed. Does anyone have information on this? :confused:

edit: oh Flourish, welcome to Geeks R us!

Originally posted by Pearl
A lot of people think he was too wimpy in that, and that was where the real damage was done. If anything, TTT Frodo is an improvement.
I'm basically in that camp, though I wouldn't use the word "wimpy." Young, naive, and helpless would be more my word choice. After all, a lot of people (my darling but clueless husband among them, bless his silly macho heart) feel that way about book Frodo. But book Frodo has a quiet inner strength that I rarely see in FotR movie Frodo (a bit at Bree, and more as the Fellowship is breaking). And more than that, book Frodo has a certain selflessness to him... or maybe a better way to put it is that he constantly wants to protect his friends, thinking he should go alone even when he's still in the Shire. Maybe his mirror scene in FotR is supposed to convey his desire to protect Sam and his cousins from what lies ahead, but it's buried beneath the heavy-handed warning from Galadriel about the Fellowship being tempted by the Ring.

Oh, OK, I'll be serious. My worst moment in TTT comes when Frodo, horrified at having attacked Sam, drops Sting (now that's a good moment) and then he says (and this is the bit which sets my teeth on edge', in a really, REALLY whiny way, 'I can't do this, Sam.'
Yes. That's the point at which that scene breaks down for me. Up until that point, I can tell myself "ok, Frodo's in a trance, and there's that scene where the WiKi rides out from Minas Morgul where Frodo's will is barely strong enough to avoid putting on the Ring, and besides, the acting between Elijah and Sean is so brilliant as Frodo holds Sting to Sam's throat that my Inner Purist is beaten down by my Outer Movie Fan." But right about there the scene breaks down, and although I can find places in the book where Frodo says he can't do various things and a lot of Sam's speech is shifted lines, it just doesn't work very well for me as a scene. (If it worked for me dramatically, I probably would have forgiven it... I am not a die-hard purist. I accept the scene between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen because it works well for me as a scene.)

At this point, I ought to say that it took me a lot of viewings to figure out the appeal of FotR movie Frodo, and that I came to terms with him mostly because of the detailed analysis of Elijah Wood's acting by the Faculty. (((((Faculty))))

As for an Oscar... I've heard more praise of Elijah's acting on TTT than I did for FotR. (PJ's final cut of FotR, by focusing on the main story and cutting out character moments, left a lot of scared/horrified Frodo reaction shots that are what stick in your mind on the first viewing, rather than the subtle nostril acting and stuff.) But I doubt anyone will get an acting Oscar for any of these movies. There are just too many characters and too many strong performances, and with the multiple storylines you may get many different opinions about who the lead actually is, based on what sort of story each person is most interested in.

And besides, if Elijah actually got a Best Actor award for RotK, he would be quite a bit younger than the youngest man ever to win one (for a role he mostly filmed before he was 20!).

Mel

[delurk]

Hi, everyone!

You all pretty much know my opinion, so nothing new here. I just cannot shut up, cannot shut up, cannot shut up...:D
Want to weight a little about Frodo's lie to Faramir.

It may be one of sublime cultural differences, or maybe just a difference in our understanding. Maybe it has smth to deal with me being from Russia, maybe it does not, but without any thinking, I'd say the same thing Frodo did. If I was on a mission with any of you, guys, :D and I were captured, I'd deny everything right away. Nope, I am alone. Nope, there is nobody else. If any additional info I give could help your capture, why give it. At that point Frodo was not yet sure of Faramir's intentions. The immorality of a lie in such situations never entered my mind, not now, not when I was a kid. As I was brought up, it would rather be considered immoral not to lie.

Plus, as Erendis points out, there really is no time to think the options through.

That particular scene never bothered me, although others did. I admit I did have problems with Osgiliath standoff, and I was deliberately looking for the proper context to put it in. The lie scene, in contrast, felt completely natural to me.

Pearl, Mel how weird is that. You hate the "I cannot do it" line, and I totally swoon over it! ;) Nope, not because I like how EW looks there.:p And even not because I am fond of his acting. Strangely, I recognize book Frodo there: the only thing that could break him is the realization that Ring is ultimately stronger than his will. It does work as a movie scene for me, because (if you cut the middle off Sam's speech :D)) these lines are exactly what I would expect Frodo and Sam to say at that moment, strangely enough ;).
And I see the great foreshadowing and setup of the future there: Frodo's guilt that he KNEW what he is up against, but could not resist till the end. :( ((((Frodo))) nobody could have...

Originally posted by tata bolger

Pearl, Mel how weird is that. You hate the "I cannot do it" line, and I totally swoon over it! ;) Nope, not because I like how EW looks there.:p And even not because I am fond of his acting. Strangely, I recognize book Frodo there: the only thing that could break him is the realization that Ring is ultimately stronger than his will. It does work as a movie scene for me, because (if you cut the middle off Sam's speech :D)) these lines are exactly what I would expect Frodo and Sam to say at that moment, strangely enough ;).
And I see the great foreshadowing and setup of the future there: Frodo's guilt that he KNEW what he is up against, but could not resist till the end. :( ((((Frodo))) nobody could have... Tata, I am so glad you said that. I have heard that some viewers actually laugh --laugh -- at that line, and it just appalls me! :mad: My heart just goes out to him there, he sounds so miserable and on the edge of despair. :( I refuse to even consider whether it sounds whiny or not. To me, it has never sounded that way.

I don't think he ever really believes that he can do it, but he's determined to get as close to succeeding as he can. In his moment of shock at almost killing his friend, the line makes perfect sense to me. In his despair, he's just allowing himself to voice something that is probably always in his mind anyway.

My 2 cents about Frodo lying to Faramir in the book and in the movie.

In the book Frodo tells Faramir about "their companion" not only because he can't tell a lie, but because he wants to protect Gollum. He says: "don't harm him, if you find him, just bring him to me". If Frodo didn't tell about Gollum, Gollum couldn be shot right away: Faramir already told him about their orders to kill anyone who wanders in those lands, and Gollum surely doesn't look as trusty as the hobbits. But in the book we have totally different relationship between Frodo and Faramir.

Frodo can trust Faramir in the book almost from the very beginning, he can trust him that if he asks for his companion, Faramir would do as he asks.

Not so in the movie: Frodo can't tell anything about Faramir and his motives there. He has no idea what is going to happen to them, and that's why he desides not to tell anything about Gollum.

I agree with Erendis: Frodo didn't have time to think, and also the circumstances were different. Frodo might have thought that if he won't tell about Gollum then Faramir's men would just kill Gollum on the spot, but he can't be sure that if he SAYS Faramir about Gollum the result would be much diferent.

Say it ain't so, BunnieBugs: people in the theater have laughed at Frodo's "I can't do this, Sam"?!! Some people have a very strange sense of "humor".:rolleyes:

Without even thinking about it before today, I've just always interpreted that line as Frodo's full, horrified realization of the enormous task he has taken on in trying to destroy the Ring. He finally understands that the Ring may not only destroy him, but could also lead him to destroy his friend, before he can destroy IT. Book Frodo doesn't think he will make it either, but my take on his attitude in the book is more fatalistic (and realistic) than whiny. And I don't see film Fro as whiny either. He's being honest.

....... I don't think that, if Elijah Wood didn't get one for the very Frodo-centric FOTR, he's going to get an Oscar for The Return of the King, realistically.

New Line seems to like putting all the actors in each movie up for Best Supporting awards anyway. It really is an ensemble work.

Originally posted by tata bolger
Pearl, Mel how weird is that. You hate the "I cannot do it" line, and I totally swoon over it! ;) Nope, not because I like how EW looks there.:p And even not because I am fond of his acting. Strangely, I recognize book Frodo there: the only thing that could break him is the realization that Ring is ultimately stronger than his will. It does work as a movie scene for me, because (if you cut the middle off Sam's speech :D)) these lines are exactly what I would expect Frodo and Sam to say at that moment, strangely enough ;).
Actually, that line doesn't bother me so much (and I agree with Goldie's take on it). Somewhere into Sam's speech the scene loses it for me, though. And "What are we fighting for, Sam?" really bothers me. Book Frodo knew fairly early on that his was essentially a suicide mission -- that's why he tried to leave Sam behind at Parth Galen. But he also knew what the stakes were, and that he had to try, and to keep trying, regardless of how hopeless things were for him individually. Even when book Frodo could no longer remember the things that were worth saving about the world, he still had that determination left. If it hadn't been for that determination left over from understanding the stakes involved, I'm not sure he could have withstood the battering his mind took in Mordor as long as he did.

Mel

"What are we fighting for, Sam?" really bothers me.

I don't like Sam's speech that much--it's one of the few that seem a bit contrived to me, but concerning Frodo's words--

When he says, "I can't do this, Sam," to me it only mirrors what he says several times in book ROTK (and I think a lot of us have satisfied ourselves that in many ways this whole scene at Osgiliath is really Minas Morgul transposed forward, so we are almost in book ROTK anyway, if you see what I mean). Frodo tells Sam on quite a few occasions that he has no hope left, which is exactly what I think he means here--only in the film script it's a little more personal (*I* can't do this) and more poignant.

About "What are we hanging on for," well...... after you have Sam announce that people in the big stories were hanging on to something, then somebody has to ask him, "What?" It's just a classic cadence, and Gollum sure isn't going to do it, so Frodo's elected.:p

Originally posted by Flourish
I don't like Sam's speech that much--it's one of the few that seem a bit contrived to me, but concerning Frodo's words--

When he says, "I can't do this, Sam," to me it only mirrors what he says several times in book ROTK

I HATE that speech of Sam's -I call it his soliloquy, and it doesn't fit well with the speech cadences of the rest of the film. But I agree with Flourish...Frodo's expressions and his "I can't do this" I thought was great and I'd watch it again and again. Another good example of his acting skills (that was what this thread was about, wasn't it????? ;) ;))

Whiny? *who* said whiny??? (Viola readies her trout ;) )

As for the Faramir scenes -I liked them. They are different from the book but I thought they worked and decided *not* to go back to the book to see how different they were.


Elevensies, the phial photo is fantastic...love the look on EW's face, and think the web is stunning in the background. :D

viola

Hope Goldie doesn't mind if I post the link to the article at TORN regarding book Faramir that she mentioned here and posted in the Faramir thread: http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1040683523 It's basically saying that book Faramir wasn't necessarily being kinder to Frodo & Sam than movie Faramir--he was just a more canny interrogator. Not that either version of him is a "bad guy," but both are serious about their job. It makes a lot of sense to me, partly because it rings true with how Tolkien wrote it--not just the step-by-step turn of events, but the way he switches back and forth between the POVs of Frodo (who somewhat understood what Faramir was doing) and Sam (who... well... didn't). Even though JRRT uses omnicient POV, he doesn't often jump back and forth multiple times during an episode like he does in that one.

I'll weigh in on the side of liking "I can't do this, Sam." After the discussions we've had here about what's going on while Sting is at Sam's throat, IMHO it's even more moving that Frodo says this not because of any hardship he has to go through himself, but because it's just taken every ounce of his will to not kill his best friend--and he knows it won't get any easier. The fact that he says it out loud, and to a specific person, makes me think he's looking for some support--which he gets, although if I were in that situation I don't think that particular "soliloquy" would have been my first choice :rolleyes: . It uses some of the most beautiful lines from the book (from the "story" dialogue), but IMHO mucks them up something awful [another British phrase that says just the right thing ;) ].

Ele, thanks for that large phial pic. :) :) . Since I barely have time to come here, I sure don't see things at other sites unless some kind soul posts or links to them here.

And speaking of barely having time... This semester I've started on a new work schedule that leaves me a lot less time for posting than I had before--both because the hours are different and because there's less chance to sneak in a bit of posting during the work day ;) . So if I'm not around for a day or two at times, you'll know it was just extra busy. Can be kind of frustrating--There was so much to read when I came here tonight, and so much to comment on, but I just have time to say a few things. I'm behind on answering PM's, too, so to anyone who's waiting--sorry :o . (And the guy on the email list has said he shouldn't have used the word "girly" to describe Elijah, so he changed it to "pretty boy" :rolleyes: . He definitely needs some education, which I will try to give him, but that takes time, too.)

(((Faculty)))

Hi guys. I just wanted to offer up my two cents on the current discussion about movie Frodo. Please know that this is all my most humble opinion, and I respect everyone else's, though I can't help but feel a little sad that everyone is so disappointed in him! :(

Basically, after reading many of the recent posts, I am beginning to feel like a total freak. Am I the only one who was completely blown away by Frodo in TTT (and in fact, by the whole movie itself)? All I know is he has touched me in a way I never knew possible. I naively thought before that I understood that aspect of reality the ring symbolizes, and what it does to a being's body, mind and soul, but I realize now that my comprehension was sorely lacking. After looking into the eye's of Eliah's Frodo, I now see it a bit more clearly. He is the expression of a being losing his connection to Love and Truth, only to be slowly consumed by fear and doubt and the need for control and possession. It is the great mythological theme of all time, and in my eyes it appears on that theater screen as plain as day. It broke my heart and made me cry for the three hours of the movie, and for many hours thereafter. I still don't know if it was Elijah doing that, or the way Frodo was written in the script, or some divine thing coming through that was completely out of everyone's control, but there it is. Or maybe it's all in my head and there is no such thing occuring in the movie, which is what I'm beginning to seriously wonder about since I don't hear anyone else talking about it!

I have pondered all this long and hard, and what is boils down to for me is that, as we all know, Tolkien has created another telling of a universal theme that has been told countless times throughout all cultures in countless ways. When PJ and company set out to make the films, the sole task they had before them was to offer up an interpretation of that story on film that also held true to this basic theme. And in my eyes they have done it beautifully - I feel it in my bones when I watch the film - that unspeakable thing is being told yet once again. I hear, see and feel that theme coming up and speaking through every aspect of the film - the landscape, the music, the acting, the art, the costumes, even the colors. It is even a more vivid rendition of the theme than the book itself for me. And for me, the details of how they did it is irrelevant, as long as the thing gets said. It's like any art form, there can be countless variations of a single work of art, and as long as these variations maintain the essence of the original, they are all beautiful and profound, even if they look a little different.

So... all this craziness to say, there is one vote here for Frodo, Elijah, and PJ! :) I think they have created a magical thing.

And I absolutely love The Osgiliath scenes. Although I do have some problems with Sam's speech. I said before that I found the tone and language to be inconsistent. It would sound perfect then all of sudden it would sound very modern and it felt very much like one of those concession bits for New Line. None of my complaints about that scene stem from Frodo.
I have been defending movie Frodo a long time now and to tell the truth I actually think (prepares to duck) that in many ways the film is an improvement. Don't get me wrong. I have been in love with Fro since I was 11 and can no longer count the number of times I have read the books but there are times when he just annoys the heck out of me. It's hard for me to explain exactly what I mean but I will say that I could certainly believe more in the Frodo that PJ gave us than the one Tolkien sometimes put forth. Book Frodo is lovely and in the context of the written word he works wonderfully but I truly have my doubts about how some of his scenes would have transferred to the screen.

I know that AATF is a serious problem for many here but it didn't bother me. (although think that had Arwen offered up her plea for his life in Elvish it would have gone a long way toward fixing the melodramatic edge that line had) Nor did his reaction to the Wraiths at Weathertop. I mean at the Ford I wanted to scoop him up and drag him off (Behave Pearl:D ) Anything to get him to stop standing there.
Bakshi's version of this scene was very close to canon (aside from the slo mo stuff) and it near 'bout drove me insane. Even in the books I kept yelling at him to "Just run for Heaven sake. Run!"
Weathertop is the same. I've seen Frodo confront the WIKI and it was not a pretty sight. Again this was Bakshi's version and I have no doubt that PJ and Elijah could have improved on it greatly but I think the basic problems remain. There's brave and then there's...well you know. And both of those two scenes always leaned more toward the latter for me. (waits resignedly for her trouting)
I also liked being "let in" so to speak. Book Frodo was always so closed as far as what he was going through. I think that is why some people can come away from the books without an understanding of just exactly what he accomplished and what it cost him. He was so determined to do it alone that he wouldn't let those who were willing help him beyond what he felt he had to accept out of courtesy. And yes that determination is one of his greatest strengths but I see it as something of a weakness as well.
We also have Tolkien's descriptions. Mostly you get the impression that he was just very tired all the time. In fact in TTT he was stumbling and staggering as early as the Dead Marshes. He also said then that he was beginning to doubt his ability to see it through to the end. In contrast, movie Frodo was awake, fully alert, and moving on his own two feet until Sam took him down on top of that tower. Nor did he ever question what they were doing. It was not until much later-after he had been nearly strangled by Gollum, half drowned in the Marshes, had literally, physically felt the presence of the wraith there as well, been thrown about by some rather burly Rangers and endured a surely harrowing interrogation at their hands, been dragged to Osgiliath though every fiber in his being rebelled against it, had a serious close encounter with lovely flying Wraith and was nearly snapped up by Fell Beast and then to top it all off, coming within a hairsbreadth of murdering his best friend-that he began to crumble under the strain. "I can't do this Sam." Whining? I should say not. Showing some very human (and completely endearing frailty? Definitely. You bet. I can't fault him for it at that point. Stating the obvious? Perhaps. After all Sam doesn't say to him "Aw, come on now sir... sure you can." He says...
"I know. It's all wrong." They are in way over their heads. They knew it from the start and the point has just been driven home...with a sledgehammer. I want to see some fear and doubt. It makes him even more real to me than he already is.
I love that he lost his temper with Sam and what's more I loved how he lost his temper. Very controlled, not raging and screaming.
Even the confrontation at Osgiliath had a certain amount of deadly calm about it.

"What are we holding onto, Sam?" I saw that as one more step back toward clarity. Sam has always kept him grounded firmly in the realm of reality. I think that is what Frodo is reaching out for here. That bit of light dancing on the water just above his head. He's still trying desperately to keep from going under.

Elve:
In case you missed it I agree 100% :D

(((Elvellon))) - well, if you're a freak, then I'm a freak too. So you're not a lone freak, anyway! I love TTT - it captured the essence of Tolkien's work even better for me than FotR. Much as I loved Fellowship, and felt it captured Middle-Earth really well, I also felt it missed out some on the the darker / epic / mythic elements of Tolkien's tale, which I'm now finding wonderfully expressed in TTT.

I think you're not hearing so much from the 'I loved it' people for a couple of reasons. IMHO, perhaps the main one is that we just don't have so much to work through, so the urgency to figure it out isn't there. We're the lucky ones that get to bask in the glow of contented happiness! ;) And until everyone's comfortable listening to us talk about how much and why we do like it, without it bringing up really strong feelings for those who don't, I'm content to, for the most part, just take part occasionally and on limited subjects. I figure eventually everyone will come to a point where they're comfortable with what they like and don't like, and what they understand and don't understand, and the full-blown analysis will start up again!

I just received the invoice for my calendar (for which I paid the original $30). It has been shipped!
Oh happy day!

:D :D :D :D :D :D
Enaiowen does a happy little dance.

what I liked about Jackson's interp of Frodo et al, is that he makes the story PERSONAL for each and every character...

well, except for Merry and Pippin in FOTR, but youseguys would have to go to the Pippin thread to hear my gripes about THAT.

Am I the only one who was completely blown away by Frodo in TTT (and in fact, by the whole movie itself)?

NOPE...not the only one! Virtually the entire take that Jackson and Wood have taken with Frodo has not only been on target in my eyes, but a vast improvement on the character (debate is out on whether or not he did the same for my hobbit-love, Pippin...)....whilst book Frodo is wonderful in his own way, there is a sense of "beyond the world" that makes it hard to understand what is making him tick. I have somewhat the same problem with Merry. Is this a Brandybuck trait??? Dunno...but that is what makes those two characters all the more mysterious and interesting...not to mention loveable!

...oh, and bobbit, you're being lured to the Pippin thread, are you not?????

Am I the only one who didn't have a problem with Sam's soliliquay?? IMO it worked okay - it was all book verse anyway.

Permit me please to ramble for a bit about something I was thinking of recently - how this time next year all the speculation will be over and we'll have seen all the movies. I really can't wait to see RotK but I think I'll also be a bit sad when I finally do because there'll be nothing else to look forward to (okay, except the Special Edition RotK). For all my eager anticipation for TTT, 2002 still flew by, and now we're half way through this whole experience.

Er, did that make sense? :eek:

I did have some reservations about TTT when I first saw it, but most of my problems - amazingly - came not from the Frodo and Sam story-line, but from the happenings the other side of the river. Elve, Narya, Enai - I'll second your opinions about Frodo in TTT.

Happy Birthday, Viola!! :k

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/quest/quest037.jpg

Have a lovely day!

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/quest/quest032.jpg



------------

Elvellon, you're a darling. :) Count me in as another freak who loved all that was to be seen in TTT movie Frodo, and who greatly appreciates the little tweaks PJ made.

Enai - your whole post. Ditto. To everything! I kinda said something similar about Weathertop at CoE today. We're having quite a bit of Faculty synchronicity here, you and I. {{{enai}}} I'll gladly share whatever trouting that comes. Although sharing that calendar would be nicer! :D

Btw, long ago in Imly (or was it CoE?) Lit Discussion, didn't we find out that we also share similar angst ideas from back when we were young, about Frodo possibly being aware despite his paralysis after Shelob's attack?


Hi esgaroth! I haven't had time to lurk at the Playgroup ... I think I better get there again!

Eyrie, your ramble made perfect sense to me! And same here. {{Eyrie}}

Flourish ... ah, you're fully initiated into intensive geekdom study now! Frodo's coat was very sadly left behind in Ithilien, as these helpful study props will show:

from versaphile.com

Frodo asleep. Quite a sight to behold. On the big screen.

http://versaphile.com/caps/ttt/coney/coney01.jpg

Last glimpse of the coat, and a wonderful look at Alert!Frodo.

http://versaphile.com/caps/ttt/oliph/oliph01.jpg

Remember these? How we were all speculating about where this was, and why their coats were gone, and what's Sam doing with his sword, and why could we see the Ring?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/FxSxith.jpg

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/quest/quest029.jpg

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/quest/quest030.jpg

pics from elijahhobbit2002.com

Well, since I'm already posting pics, I'll post this one too. I just like it, for some reason.

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/quest/quest044.jpg


{{{tgshaw}}} And good luck with that man ... 'pretty boy?!' :rolleyes: :p

EE -- I didn't exactly have a problem with Sam's speech, in that I didn't hate it, at least. I recognized the passages, and understood the cinematic reasons for the whole "soliliquy" thing... but I have to wonder how effective it is in the film when I actually found my attention wandering from what he is saying! :eek: I think Sean did a wonderful delivery, but somehow it just didn't quite click for me. I'm hoping that on future viewings, perhaps it might resonate a bit more.

I am simply dying at this point to see the film again! It's just not that easy to coordinate in my life, unfortunately. So each viewing is so precious. (*snerk* 'precious.' That didn't hit me until after I'd typed it...:p )

Oh, and...

Happy Birthday, Viola! I hope your day is filled with nice things! Here's a Frodo hug for you:

http://frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/frodo/frodo-090.jpg

Ainon, LOL! Thank you--I learn something every day, but it isn't usually SO enjoyable as you made it.

Enaiowen--what you said. Couldn't have said it better!:D

*slides slowly down the slippery slope to geekdom......*

That cap of Frodo sleeping in Ithilien suddenly reminded me of that picture of Elijah sleeping on that horrifically messy bed...since Dom said that Elijah can fall asleep "anwhere, at any time," I wonder if he was actually sleeping when that shot was filmed! When Gollum drops the coneys in his lap, he really does look like he's just woken up. Thanks for the great pictures Ainon...that one of Frodo and Sam at the party is a new one for me and it's just lovely. I so love Party Fro. I miss Party Fro.

Enai, you do a better job of convincing me of Frodo's strength than PJ did! :p

How frigging brilliant you all are!!!;)

Elve, Enai, and all - lots of great points and I agree with most.

By MelAnd "What are we fighting for, Sam?" really bothers me. Book Frodo knew fairly early on that his was essentially a suicide mission -- that's why he tried to leave Sam behind at Parth Galen. But he also knew what the stakes were, and that he had to try, and to keep trying, regardless of how hopeless things were for him individually. Even when book Frodo could no longer remember the things that were worth saving about the world, he still had that determination left.

You are absolutely right! But I think movie-Frodo's "What are we holding on to?" is a little more than declaration that HE has no hope for survival, and a little more than just exaustion. I think Frodo understands quite clear what is at stake re: his own life, and made peace withit long ago. Remember Black Gate scene? He was prepared to walk in there with no single shred of doubt.

But in Osgiliath the stakes are even higher. If anything, this incident should make Frodo realize that he himself might turn into an instrument of evil, simply because his will is not strong enough. He just almost killed his best friend. Remember Boromir's "you will take the Ring to Sauron!" (similar line in the book, in slightly different words). Frodo must have had doubts about his mission: if he is not able to resist the Ring's power, what good are his good intentions? Isn't he in all the good faith essentially doing just that: taking the Ring closer to Sauron?

Now let us play with Sam's speech a little : :D(from memory)


-------------------------
-I cannot do this, Sam...

-I know, Mr. Frodo. By rights, we should not even be here (darn right! :D), but we are... It is like in great stories, Mr. Frodo, the ones that really matter. ...(And smth about not wanting to know the end...I do not qiute remember...) CUT: the dreadful (sorry who liked it) "new day will come" and stuff like this... BACK TO THE SPEECH: I understand now: folk in those stories had every chance to turn back, only they did not! They kept fighting, because they held onto something!

-What are we holding on to, Sam?

-That there is some good in this world, Mr. Frodo, and it is worth fighting for!
---------------------------------
(PJ really needs to create make-your-own-movie kit. I'd buy it!)

What follows is totally my speculation, does not necessarily make sense: :D

So this is how I (want to;)) understand the "what are we holding on to?" line: This is all good about heroes and stories, Sam, but they had a clear line between black and white, and all they had to do is keep fighting for what they held dear. But what if you are not sure? What if you are not sure of YOURSELF? What if you cannot resist this evil and all your determination is indeed playing into the hands of The Enemy? What if black and white lines start to blur like that?
You have to give it to Frodo's wisdom - he has forseen EXACTLY what would happen.

And the only answer to this is - it does not matter if you are strong enough to win. What matters, is that you simply do your duty while you can, until you drop/or else. Then, there is no more blurring black/white lines, everything is clear. In a sense, the less you think, the better - "be like Sam";). Sam has no idea what is going on, but ironically he is the one who is so fundamentally right in his understanding.

I still want to find a screencap of the look Frodo gives Sam after those words.

Re: PJ treatment of Frodo in FOTR and TTT and in general
I loved it, though I would not say it is an improvement in character (blasphemy! :D) PJ did take a number of heroic moments from Frodo in FOTR, and among those I grieve mostly not over Weathertop or Fords, but over Barrow-downs. To think of that, in both Weathertop and Fords there was nothing at stake regarding Frodo's bravery. He could have just dropped from the horse at the Fords or (like in the movie) drop his sword at Amon Sul. The result would be same. In barrow-downs, in contrast, there was a dilemma before him: escape and save yourself, or fight back for your friends. There he had to make a concsious choice. IMHO this is the one most important character-defining pre-quest Frodo moment: he just absolutely COULD NOT LEAVE HIS FRIENDS, even if it ment mortal danger for himself. Unfortunately, out of the movie...

IMHO the other most important character moment for Frodo post-quest is when he sees the destruction of the Shire, sees his own home violated, has Saruman in his power, and... lets him go. Out, as well. :( Alas.

And I also miss the final dialog with Faramir: (smth like) - "I do not think Gandalf would have you go to th certain torment and death. - You say you cannot lead me over the mountains, but over the mountains I am bound by the solemn undertaking to The Council..." Such a polignant scene, full of emotions and grief and says so much about both characters! And it could actually work in TTT, right after Faramir lets them go, maybe in some shortened form, without mentionings of Gandalf and Council, if you wish... Rats!

But in general, I do love what PJ did. I think his Frodo story line, esp in TTT is as deep as the book itself. True, it does not make you cheer for Frodo, sometimes the opposite - it gives you very uncomfortable emotions. But it makes you think hard. The scene where he pets the Ring is awesome - it makes you feel disgusted and ashamed for Frodo! To think of that - it makes you FEEL LIKE FRODO DID when he realized what he is doing! Same with Osgiliath and its disturbingly "religious" imagery - saintly Frodo "giving" The Ring to Nazgul. I do not remember who (thank you, whoever you are) and where reminded me of this quote from FOTR, when Frodo has the Ring on on Amon Hen: " He heard himself crying out: Never, never! Or was it: Verily I come, I come to you?"


And, last, but not least, ;)
Happy Birthday, Viola!! :k

Hi people,

(Has a Bill & Ted moment) Woah, so many posts, so many posts! :D

Happy Birthday Viola! Hope you had a lovely day! :)

Elevensies - merci beaucoup for the lovely big Phial pic! :) God, those spider webs are sooo thick and sticky looking, yuck.

Elve - I love TTT Frodo too :) I just wish there was more of him, I mean while I'm on the edge of my seat during the non-Frodo scenes and really enjoying the other aspects of the film, I'm always thinking, where's Frodo when are we gonna see him again?! :D

About the Frodo/Faramir/Gollum thing. Maybe this has been mentioned before (apologies if it has) but even though Frodo doesn't admit to knowing of Gollum, doesn't Faramir mention his 'gangrel companion' at the Forbidden Pool? So maybe Frodo does mention his 'gangrel companion' at some point, perhaps to be shown in the SE DVD? Or does Faramir just see Gollum and say 'gangrel' without having prior knowledge of the word and accquanting it to Gollum?

What is a gangrel anyway? :p

Eldalieva - I love that bit when Gollum bounds over to Frodo and drops the rabbits in his lap. Gollum is really quite cute there! He reminds me of my dog when he drops his ball for me! Big blue eyes (Gollum's not Jed's) :)

http://www.serkis.com/images/9987.jpg

Awww...


Bloss - did you enjoy The War? They showed it up here on Tuesday instead of Wed, I put the tape on to pre-record it and settled down to watch something else, then curiousity got the better of me and I went back to my room and saw that it wasn't recording! :eek: So I just pressed record manually and it taped it then. I only missed the first 15 minutes or so, so it wasn't so bad. Am glad I taped it, EW is great as Stu :)

I'm going to see the film with a friend again on Sunday, my other friend can't make it then so I relented and said I'd see it with her maybe next week or the week after, one has to make sacrifices in life :D

Bye for now,

Luth x

Well, I have finally had an opportunity to read some of the thoughts of the Faculty on TTT - and I must say, it seems you have all had to do some stretching to reach the conclusions you have. While I see some very good points, I also feel that much of what has been discussed here is assumed from a knowledge of the books or from a generous helping of wishful thinking. ;) Not that what anyone has said here was wrong but that the conclusions reached were not readily apparent to this viewer.

I went in with my inner purist as muzzled as I could manage her (and yes, she is a bear) but the problems I had I feel sure I would have seen had I not known the story. I stand by my position that too much of the character development that I feel was needed was not included in the final film. I've never had a problem with PJ's Faramir characterization, though I didn't see the character I had come to know from my reading, I accepted the character as presented. He was fine, believable and quite understandable... until the end, that is. ;)

by Maeglian
But then, Faramir's decision to let Frodo go with the Ring after Frodo has demonstrated how close he is to falling completely under the Ring's influence, is still my pet peeve as that osgiliath scene now stands. If they include nothing else in the extended DVD, they simply must include some more motivation, action or dialogue that makes the true background for this decision clearer.

Bingo. The problem I had was also with the abruptness of the supposed turnabout in Faramir's decision. It DOES appear to me to be a leap for him to go from not trusting these two, even learning what he has about what happened to his brother, to letting them go at risk of his own life. You get to see a bit of his change of heart, but honestly, if I put myself in movie!Faramir's position, I would NOT feel in any way disposed to letting Frodo go off to Mordor with Sam and Gollum! What we SAW that Faramir saw would have given him no reason to respect Frodo at all - and no reason to believe that Frodo would have any chance of keeping the ring away from the Nazgul if they ever crossed paths again (something that is actually MORE likely inside of Mordor than outside it). The only one who did any talking (that we saw) was Sam! From what I saw, I would have found it more believable for Faramir to have said, 'here, Sam, your master is a twit, you are the only one with any sense, maybe you should take this ring?'

by ainon
Forgive me now for what I'm about to say ... <gulp> but uh ... aren't those nitpicks from the book itself? Best moments of Frodo angst in those chapters of course but the whole Faramir letting them off to Mordor never sat well with me in the book.

Ainon, I love ya, dear, but I am going to meet the above comment with a resounding NO! In the book Faramir learns to RESPECT Frodo for what he is planning on doing - and NOT based on hearsay from Sam! It is in the careful bandying of words and counter-posturing that Faramir learns Frodo's worth and what a skillful and determined leader he is. Faramir says something to the effect of being as he was a fair judge of men's hearts, he would hazard a guess at hobbits' - and from THAT he is able to allow Frodo and Sam to go. He RESPECTS Frodo enough not to hinder him on his quest. Yes, he would rather Frodo and Sam were not going, but in the book, he sees Frodo as an equal - on par with himself - but with a far more difficult and dangerous mission. He admires the conjones Frodo has - even if he thinks the mission is doomed - and that is why he helps them as much as he can. That is part of the reason that he wants to know the name of the pass F&S are going towards - because he would warn them if he could - offer them ANY help he can possibly spare. He is a fellow fighter in the same battle Frodo and Sam are fighting - and because of that, he salutes them. The BIGGEST problem with the movie is that we never get to see Faramir learning to respect Frodo - and without that respect, the whole sequence of events looks completely unjustifiable! No, to me, the book makes PERFECT sense - and is admirable and touching and heart wrenching beyond belief - but in the MOVIE - without seeing Faramir gaining respect for Frodo, it looks as unjustified as you seemed to think the events in the book were.

by Mel Headstrong
But right about there the scene breaks down, and although I can find places in the book where Frodo says he can't do various things and a lot of Sam's speech is shifted lines, it just doesn't work very well for me as a scene. (If it worked for me dramatically, I probably would have forgiven it... I am not a die-hard purist. I accept the scene between Frodo and Aragorn at Amon Hen because it works well for me as a scene.)

Exactly my complaint! I never had a problem at AH... and yes, I could see the purist's problems with that scene, but it just didn't hit me as off. It worked for movie Frodo and movie Aragorn - Regardless of the logic flaw of knowing the orcs were attacking and still not realizing his friends might die. I always figured he thought they were equal to the fight. But at Osgiliath, the scenes as presented just don't work very well, and I don't think they would even if I didn't know the story.

OK... I am posting this from the airport on my laptop... this should SHOW you just how hopelessly addicted I am! I will download the rest and see what else you have to say - but this is my argument so far.

Ariel

Originally posted by Ariel
and I must say, it seems you have all had to do some stretching to reach the conclusions you have.
WEll, IYHO of course. We need to be a little careful here - to say we're reading things into the movie that AREN'T THERE is no more valid than for someone to tell you that you just failed to see what IS THERE. We have honest differences of opinion and perception about what the movie showed and didn't show. And it's all fine, and we're all good and wonderful, and these differences are both expected and acceptable. :k :k

I can't take the time to go into it now, but in another thread I was relating how many of the people I know who DO NOT know the books well, or haven't even read them, were able to pick up on an awful lot that some of those who DO know the books really well seem to feel is missing from the movie. In other words, PJ may not have done it the way some of us would have liked to have seen it, but somehow he managed to convey many of the themes / messages / characterizations we feel are important to those who DID NOT have a book background to fall back on. More on this later (tomorrow probably :rolleyes: if I have time).

BTW, HAPPY BIRTHDAY VIOLA. If we were in the Harem, I'd suggest you take a nice walk with the Squire, but since we're not, I'll just send you a Happy Birthday that is the color of his eyes!!!

Re: stretching the conclusions. I have no problem with the fact that one has to "work" on the movie to truly understand it or form an opinion. The book LOTR is no less (gee, more! :D) complex. People analyse it and overanalyse it, and look for smth that "is not there" as my snobish co-workers would put it...:rolleyes: Conclusions do not have to be apparent, IMHO. It is true that movie genre is much more about first impressions and subconscious imagery. After all - it just flies by before your eyes, there is no time to go back and re-view in the cinema. But some amount of non-apparent depth should be expected of a good movie, this is what makes a good movie (this comment is NOT about Faramir part! :D).

Often, book-readers have conflicting opinions about some themes, it is all natural for the movie as well. It is only good to hear them all.


Originally posted by Ariel
In the book Faramir learns to RESPECT Frodo for what he is planning on doing Enthusiastic yes here!!! Paradox: we had a strikingly different reaction to the movie, yet we both miss the same thing and both agree that this is a flaw. :D It seems that the whole movie impression boils down to the reaction to that single episode: for some it did spoil the whole movie, for some it did not. Fascinating!


Originally posted by Ariel
The problem I had was also with the abruptness of the supposed turnabout in Faramir's decision.....if I put myself in movie!Faramir's position, I would NOT feel in any way disposed to letting Frodo go off to Mordor with Sam and Gollum! What we SAW that Faramir saw would have given him no reason to respect Frodo at all - and no reason to believe that Frodo would have any chance of keeping the ring away from the Nazgul ...
I loved your post, esp all the respect points - v. true. I disagree on one thing, though. Technically, Faramir in the book never had to ask himself if Frodo is able to keep the Ring from Nazgul for two reasons: first, Nazgul and The Ring were less powerful in the book. Second, he never witnessed Frodo-vs-Ring weakness moments. I believe here moviemakers walked themselves into a trap: the changes to the book led to the necessity for other changes. Snowball effect.

And in general, the main motivation for Faramir to let Frodo go should never be his belief in Frodo's ability/or lack thereof. That is the trap Boromir walked in: he did not believe in the success of the quest, and Ring worked on that, giving him all the motivation. Boromir-under-the-influence decided he knows better than the whole Council of Elrond. Faramir understood and accepted its decision - no other way, period. If anything, there are indications that book Faramir also thought the quest was doomed, but as you point out, he did let Frodo go out of pure respect - respect to the Council's decision, and to Frodo as it's member and a worthy fellow fighter, shouldering an impossible burden.

What we have in the movie, is Faramir witnessing Ring's work - easy to misinterpret; Gandalf or Council never mentioned; Frodo tells a lie - works well to create the reason for distrust - hence the suspense, etc. But on the other side of that thin line - the reasons for respect are little to be seen. We can think and rethink this episode through, and I personally do not see it as a change to characters - but rather gaps in storytelling. I do not see it as a logically inconsistent either - given the circumstances and proper brainwork Faramir's decision is fine with me. I only wish it would be supported by a couple of lines from Faz himself, not only by my own speculations.

What I wouldn't give to see those chop-chopped scenes on the cutting room floor!

You can all get out your trouts now (eek) but my feeling about most of the changes is that just because it's possible to complain doesn't mean I, personally, have to.

I admit I didn't come to this acceptance of TTT until I'd seen it--I complained a lot beforehand, but in retrospect I think it was because I just plain enjoyed having something LOTR-related to talk about during the endless wait, and I have some very patient friends--but in truth I would much rather love these films for all the truly *great* things about them--not the least of which is the glorious opportunity they offer to even the most casual escapist like me to actually LIVE in Middle Earth for a few blissful hours. I never hoped for such a chance when I first fell in love with the books years ago, and I'd be a fool (imo) to disregard it or let the fact that it's someone else's personal vision and not in every detail my own get in the way of my enjoyment of it. It's a gift!

Of course I understand that everyone doesn't feel that way, and I'm learning from hearing your thoughts.

EDIT: Tata, really good points about Faramir and the plot holes!

Oh my, stay away for a couple of days and there is so much to read and to see here - I am stunned!!

((((((Faculty)))))))) Have I ever mentioned I love you all?


Happy birthday Viola!!! If you're currently in the UK, this is still the actual birthday!


Welcome, Maggie, and Hi!! Esgaroth! :)


EE, - I'm totally with you on the RotK anticipation issue!
On the one hand, I would like to see the film NOW!!! NOW!!!
.........But, OTOH though, it's also great to be able to enjoy the anticipation and build-up, to be able to hope and wish and dream and worry and ponder and speculate, but to yet not know with certainty.

BTW, I am in full agreement with you and Blossom about the hunting issue too. And one thing I certainly would like to hear much more about when we meet (only 2 weeks now!! :cool: ) is vegetarianism. :)


(((((((Elvellon))))))) it means a lot to me, and probably to others here, the way you are able to take one step back and look at the total experience and message of the LotR films, the way you so eloquently and emotionally point out the utter beauty, awe, grandeur and magic that imbue and radiates from the films: - PJ's interpretation and EJW's acting, as well as the magnificence and wonder of the mythological, universal themes.


Narya, ainon, Enai, Tata, Mel, Flourish, Ariel, Pearl, Bunnie, - thank you all for your continued interesting, and considerate posts and views on the TTT Osgiliath scenes and their interpretation. They enable me to think through them and then nod my head in agreement, to see many new and certainly varied, but all equally valid, nuances and interpretations, and to (- on some occasions -) feel the need to consider and actually formulate *why* I disagree.


Erendis; - hope you don't mind that I swoon for your explanation of the reason for the book Swoon at HA? Wonderful and enjoyable and oh-so true and poignant explanation :)


*The* ultimate (?) RotK picture
Oh, how I love that F&S picture! The pale lips............ thank you to all who've posted and re-posted it.
That one cries out for an "official" name for us to use in future references to it, doesn't it? Has it already been named, perhaps by the harem? (Haven't been able to visit there yet). Is the "pieta" picture the name for it??
From ainon
I'm imagining what the shot would be like from over Sam's shoulder. I keep thinking of that little shot we have of Mikey in the Ice Storm, only this time it is Frodo ... You said it, dear. Oh, the aaaaahhhhnnnnnggggssssttt! :o :rolleyes:


The phial picture
Thank you, Elevensies, for posting the better version of that one. I notice the mithril shirt is showing there....... That makes every sort of sense given the importance it will have for the action both in CU and later when the Black Gate opens.
Strange, really, that the mithril shirt saves Frodo's life in 2 ways; - in Moria it protects its wearer from a spear thrust as it was actually made to do. In CU it is the shirt's immense value that actually protects Frodo and Sam from the orcs through working on destroying them through their immense combined evil and greed.

I'm rambling now..... Well, it *is* a wonderful pic. :)


I just have to get in my 2 cents worth on several of the topics that have been discussed here or is currently being discussed. Especially Osgiliath. But I can't just now; - I'll have to post some more a little later.

Just dropping in to says thanks (((faculty))) for all the birthday wishes. :k

I'm still in new zealand so I started my birthday early...:D , as its now my birthday UK time I think I shall start over :D :D

Spent the afternoon yesterday in the best possible way...wine, Cadmo, and the PJ commentary over the FOTR DVD, with two nephews (mostly spellbound, except for constant queries about why we had to listen to the man instead of just watching the film on its own...and could we watch the alliance battle just one more time?) :D

I came away with several impressions..one, that a lot of our discussion and previous conclusions weren't that far off what PJ/Fran/PB were thinking when they wrote the script, two, that several things that we disagreed with or didn't understand, were done in the context of three films, and three, that Phillipa Boyens has the most amazing grasp of the book, moreso than PJ and Fran (oh, and they get on very well together too...loved the joke about Fran's scream used for the black riders as a response to PJ buying the rights to film the Silmarrillion, and the quip "pain is temporary, film is forever")

viola

Big smooches to all Faculty colleagues for so eloquently interpreting the film. You are all so articulate that I simply agree with whomever's post I have most recently read. :) Afraid I need some more access to the film before I can make up my mind.

But I thought you all might be interested in knowing that apparently Elwood is in NYC right now filming the "Sunshine" thing. You can read about it here:

http://movies.yahoo.com/shop?d=hp&cf=prev&id=1808457309


I was amused to note that not only does he work with fellow Peter Jackson alum Kate Winslet in this movie, but is reunited with Tom Wilkinson, with whom he worked in Chain of Fools. :cool:

New York Faculty Members: be on the lookout!

Oh and thanks ainon for those lovely pictures! Happy Birthday, Viola!

I'd like to think I might bump into Mr. Wood on the subway, as one young fan apparently did the other day, but I have no plans to be in the city at the moment and I doubt he's got any yen to visit the suburbs. I've alerted my sister, though! If she spies him in Tower Records or something I'm sure she'll tell me.;)

(Anyway, what the heck would I say?? :p )

Originally posted by Flourish
I'd like to think I might bump into Mr. Wood on the subway, as one young fan apparently did the other day...

He rides the subway?

I have to process this new information.

I have to start re-applying lipstick before I leave work.

Hello Faculty! <<<HUGS>>>

I am sorry I don't post anymore. It is all I can do to lurk out here enough to keep up with everyone else, much less find time to actually post.

I agree with so much that I have read, and disagree with an almost equal amount. Overall I have very few problems with TTT, Frodo or Faramir. I accept the interpretation of the director for what it was...an interpretation of the book character. Frequently book characters don't translate well to film. I think PJ did an outstanding job.

On the movie as a whole....I loved it...but not immediately. I had to think about it...mull it over...before I accepted the changes PJ made. My immediate reaction was not so much over what was in the movie, but what was not...and that is again based on the translation of a book to film. I understand the changes he made, I appreciated Sam's soliloquy for what its purpose was and I had no problem with Faramir.

Frodo was perfect, as was Gollum and Sam. I anticipate Pippin and Merry to shine in ROTK so wasn't even too upset about them spending the movie in a tree.

That is about all I have time for. I miss you all and miss the opportunity to post. I keep hoping my life will slow down to about the pace it was last year at this time, but that doesn't appear to be in the cards. There have been more cutbacks in staff, but the work has increased. It makes no sense to me or anyone else in the department. Anyway, enough whining...keep up the terrific analysis and remember that even though I don't participate, I am lurking and watching what you have to say.

Love you Faculty.

MsU

This is for Elda and anyone else who might, just might, run into Elijah on the subway and might need a good topic of conversation. I'm going to try to cut and paste this, cause the original article has a cuss-word in it (out of Elijah's mouth, bad boy ;) ).

But at least now I know that if I ever find myself needing to hold a conversation with Elijah Wood and do not want to immediately confess to exactly how long I've been a fan of Frodo Baggins, I can always just talk about modal jazz or something.
From a magazine called Blender
The Stone Roses Remind Me of Frodo Baggins!
If there’s one thing Elijah Wood loves more than keeping Middle Earth safe, it’s the hundreds of albums he drags around to movie sets. But nü-metallers, beware: Wood hates your guts!

By Nick Duerden

Elijah Wood strolls through a Hollywood theater complex, a bag of CDs in one hand and a cigarette in the other. He sits at an outdoor table and orders coffee. And matches. Wood smokes a lot. In a couple of hours, he sucks on six or seven cigs as though they supply oxygen.

Despite the smokes, and the almost-beard that’s struggling to assert itself on his angelic face, Wood could still pass for 14. At 21, he’s already established a strong acting career. In 1997, he had a notable turn as a stoned high schooler in Ang Lee’s The Ice Storm, and today, thanks to an inescapable three-part fantasy saga called The Lord of the Rings, he’s a global superstar.

Wood, playing head hobbit Frodo Baggins in the trilogy, is eager to see The Two Towers, the new installment: “I haven’t seen it yet, but I know it’s going to be much better than the first one.”

Movies, it seems, are only Wood’s second-favorite subject — when he talks about music, his blue eyes blaze: “I love music so much. But I would never try to be like other actors and attempt to make some myself. I mean, have you heard 30 Seconds to Mars?” Upon learning that Jared Leto’s nü-metal act has somehow managed to evade Blender’s ears, Wood nearly shouts: “****ing awful, man! I love music too much to ever do it any harm.”

This fall, the nü-metal-hata’s been preparing to embark on a worldwide promotional circus for The Two Towers by winnowing his collection to the bare-bones 300 CDs he’ll bring along for company. “One day, I’d love to have my own label,” he says, dragging on cigarette number seven. “Just something small. But highly influential, of course.” Of course. . . .

SMASHING PUMPKINS
SIAMESE DREAM
Virgin, 1993
“This was the first band I ever really worshiped, and this album meant everything to me. I’ve always stuck by them because of Siamese Dream, even though most people I know hate them, or, more specifically, hate Billy Corgan. I hope that in years to come people will reappraise it and realize that Corgan was perhaps the greatest songwriter of his generation.”

THE STONE ROSES
THE STONE ROSES
Silvertone, 1989
“I discovered it in New Zealand when we were filming The Lord of the Rings. Every time I play it, it fills me with memories of Frodo Baggins. It’s so innovative and progressive, and it has influenced so many people. The band’s story is a sad one, because the success of this record effectively ruined them — but maybe it’s even better because of that. My favorite album ever? Could be.”

VERBENA
SOULS FOR SALE
Merge, 1997
“I came upon them by accident, reading an article in a magazine. That’s what I do: I read about all different kinds of music, then I go out and experiment. It didn’t exactly sound like my thing, but I liked their enthusiasm, so I bought it. This is just a brilliant record.”

MILES DAVIS
KIND OF BLUE
Columbia, 1959
“This was the first record that really got me into jazz, back in ’96, ’97. I’d heard a little jazz at that point — Coltrane, Ellington — but I was intent on finding the perfect introduction. As soon as I heard this, I thought it was unbelievable. I’ve since branched off into lots of other kinds of jazz, but this remains a special album.”

BLACK SABBATH
PARANOID
Warner Bros., 1971
“I got into this during my mid-’90s metal stage. There is absolutely no correlation between this and the current crop of nü-metal, which, if you ask me, can get ****ed. I hate all that ****: Limp Bizkit and Disturbed can go to hell. It’s not rock at all, and if it is, then it’s not good rock. The only band that comes close is maybe Queens of the Stone Age. The others suck.”

BUFFALO DAUGHTER
NEW ROCK
Grand Royal, 1998
“Whenever I get tired of American music, I start reading, searching the Internet and browsing through record stores for weird ****. This is one I came up with recently. It’s two girls and one guy from Japan, and they do rock and dance-type electronica, with funk and soul thrown in. They do things with music that no American band can do. It’s impossible to get tired of. Check it out.”

THE SUNDAYS
READING, WRITING AND ARITHMETIC
DGC, 1990
“I absolutely adore this album. I was really into discovering new things when it came out — I must have been 10 — and here was this cute band from England that the British press was going wild over. I liked the fact that I got it before any of my friends! The Sundays haven’t been very productive since, have they? [Sighs] I really do love them.”

THE METERS
LOOK-KA PY PY
Sundazed, 1970
“The Meters started in the ’60s in New Orleans and were partly made up of Neville brothers — as in the Neville Brothers. It’s the kind of thing I like to hear with a few buddies when we’re going to have an all-night session, you know? It’s that kind of music: instant atmosphere. It may be hard to dig up this album, but you have to try to find it — it’s worth it.”

A TRIBE CALLED QUEST
MIDNIGHT MARAUDERS
Jive, 1993
“I like a lot of hip-hop — always have. I like the delivery, the poetry. And Q-Tip must have the best rap voice of them all. This has to be my favorite rap album, or at least my joint favorite alongside De La Soul Is Dead, which is another truly fantastic rap album. If I had to pick one? OK, this one, but just by a whisper.”

PRINCE
1999
Warner Bros., 1983
“I’ve always loved Prince. He’s a genius. Or was a genius — he hasn’t done anything great for almost a decade. But the years ’79 to ’88, he was untouchable. He couldn’t write a bad song. I think 1999 is funkier than anything he’s ever done before or since, and it probably contains my favorite Prince songs, from ‘Lady Cab Driver’ to ‘D.M.S.R.’ It has so many different flavors, this album — it’s awesome.”

(There's a long list of other recommended albums -- if you want to see the whole list, look for the link to the article on TORN.)

Happy Birthday Viola! It's not tomorrow yet in the US...

Mel

I just love reading all this discussion/exchange of views/opinions.

Elve, enainowen, esgaroth (hello, are you new to the Faculty?) Flourish, Ainon, Narya - I'm really pleased you're all so impressed with movie Fro. Wimpy??? Whiney??? NO WAY!

Hubby comandeered the computer last night, so I took the opportunity to watch the extended DVD of 'Fellowship' again. It got me to thinking of all those nice (NOT) people who have suggested that EW has only one expresssion in LOTR - wide-eyed, frightened Frodo. They are SO wrong (or misguided - whatever). Yes, Frodo is scared; yes, he runs from danger, drops his sword and backs away from the ringwraiths; but isn't that the natural thing a young innnocent in an impossible situation would do? He is out of his depth, and while the other characters may be SHOWN to have more courage, Frodo was the ONE person the ringwraiths, the watcher and the cave troll were after. Only him; because he had the Ring, because he had been brave enough in the first place to take on the responsibility of removing this evil from The Shire. Watching FOTR again last night, I was struck anew by the gradual change in Frodo's character. At the beginning he was a happy, carefree young hobbit - and here Elijah gave him such innocence, exuberance, and energy. But once Bilbo had gone, and he learned the truth about the Ring, and took the burden upon himself, (you all know Gandalf didn't ask Frodo to take it - Frodo's words in Bag End were, 'What must I do?') Frodo's world changed utterly. When faced with the uncertainty, the knowledge that HE was being hunted by pure evil, that HE was carrying an object with a palpable power, then Frodo himself began to change. How could he not?

Yes, he WAS extremely frightened, and Elijah portrayed that very real and understandable fear on so many different levels. IMHO the depth and range of Elijah's performance is quite astounding. On the whole, (although he is the central character here) and especially in the latter stages of the film, Frodo doesn't have a lot to say, but Elijah conveys so much emotion with a glance, an expression - it's as though his character's thoughts and feelings are reflected in his eyes - It's just awesome!!! The added scene when the Fellowship leave Rivendell is, I think, a perfect example of this. The expression on Frodo's face when Gandalf says, (IIRC) 'The Fellowship awaits the Ringbearer,' is just amazing. It is only on screen for a few seconds, but as he turns to walk under the arch, not knowing which way to go, all the trepidation and apprehension is there, the sheer weight of the task he has taken on is written in his features - that sort of, 'Who, ME? Goodness, what have I done? What do I do?' A lost yet resigned look, if that makes any sense. Again, this is perfectly displayed in the added scene in Lothlorien, when Haldir is arguing with Aragorn, and everyone looks towards Frodo. Frodo's whole demeanour here portrays clearly what he is experiencing internally; guilt at Gandalf's demise, despair at the belief that the others blame him, and the evil he brings with him, for Haldir's reluctance to let them into Lothlorien. He has the weight of the world (or Middle-Earth) on his shoulders, and it shows. Superb! I realize and accept that everyone has their own opinion, but to my mind anyone who fails to 'see' Elijah's internal emotional conflict is missing out on an immense talent!

Now, however much you like or dislike PJ's take on the storyline/book v film Frodo, Elijah's performance is inspired, moving, emotional, heart-wrenching (not to mention swoon-worthy!) and all the more impressive when you consider that he was only eighteen when he took on the very demanding role of Frodo Baggins!

I guess most of you here have seen TTT several times by now, and I (sob) have only managed one viewing to date. However, during that one swift (it went by so quickly) look Elijah impressed me yet again with his interpretation of Frodo's decline, the Ring's increasing hold over him, the pity he felt for Smeagol (for I think it is Smeagol who Frodo identifies with; it is who Gollum WAS, and the hope that he is not COMPLETELY lost, rather than who he IS, that touches Frodo), and the despair he suffers when he realizes that he almost killed Sam. On my single viewing I felt there were things PJ SHOULD and COULD have done differently - I DO miss the eventual 'understanding' that develops between book Frodo and Faramir, and the respect that Frodo earns from Faramir. But I DID come away with the impression that this film Frodo was more determined, more forthright, more outwardly courageous - the Black Gate was well done - HE WOULD HAVE GONE INTO MORDOR ALONE THEN - HE WOULD!!! HE WAS SO DETERMINED!:) :eek:
It was confusing as to how Faramir came to the decision to let Frodo go after the Nazgul episode in Osgiliath, and I hope the extended DVD will add some much-needed explanation here. (Though I DO think Elijah's delivery of 'They're here! They've come, was totally CHILLING. Brilliant!).

Goldie - I can't believe there are people who laughed at his, 'I can't do this, Sam.' As with the, 'What are we holding on to, Sam?' line, I agree with Tata here - Frodo was aghast at what he had just done. He doubts his own strength, will, resistance - call it what you will - he needs reassurance that he CAN carry on, that he MUST continue, no matter what the consequences may be. Dear old Sam provides the desired encouragement, however corny/contrived it may seem (New Line?). I WOULD have liked PJ to emphasize the fact that Frodo realizes quite early on in TTT that for him, it is a journey of self-sacrifice, that he honestly believes the only thing waiting for him at the end is death. I do need to see it again, as first impressions are often revised on further viewings, but one thing I am cetain will prevail - my continued admiration of young Mr. Wood!

As for ROTK. EE, yes, I share your thoughts on that. While desperately wanting to see the third film NOW, the thought that it will all be over (other than us lot continuing to discuss it for ever and a day! - We will, won't we?) is quite depressing!

Elevensies - thanks so much for posting that wonderful, angsty, beautiful Phial pic. I know there is much speculation on the Fro and Sam pic, but that Phial pic brings pure joy to my heart (Am I sad, or what?). Now THAT is what we want to see! BRAVE, COURAGEOUS, DETERMINED, Frodo, facing HER, SHOWING HIS QUALITY (the Captain isn't the only one with quality). Be still my beating heart.:rolleyes: Please, please, please, please, please, please let that scene be in the theatrical version of ROTK, PJ! You owe it to Elijah and Frodo!

Ainon - what's that you said? Frodo AWARE although paralised by Shelob's attack!!! OMG!!! What are you trying do to to me, girl? :eek: :eek: :eek:

Maeglian. Hi. Are you a veggie? Sorry I won't be at the Brit Moot, but I do wish you all a wonderful day! I'll be thinking of you. I know, I could go for my second viewing of TTT on that day, then I would feel 'connected' to you all. It's pay day the day before, so that would be the perfect time. Yes, I think hubby and I will definitely go then.

Luthiea. You always make me smile when you call me 'Bloss'. I borrowed the name from my dear late mom's nickname. Her real name was 'Iris', but my lovely late dad, 'Tom', used to call her 'Blossom', which often got shortened to 'Bloss'.
Yes, I did enjoy watching 'The War' on Wednesday, thanks. I have the DVD, but it's such a great little film that any excuse will suffice!
Your mom and dad make me LOL. Falling asleep during TTT, indeed, though it was lovely of them to go with you. Our Holly sends your Jed:k

Well, I think I have rambled on for far too long, without contributing anything worthwhile to TTT discussion - again! Feel free to ignore me until I am better qualified to join in, after further TTT viewings. Narya, I have really enjoyed your TTT posts in the Trilogy thread - they are a pleasure to read. In fact, I think I'll head over there now and see what's going on.

Happy birthday Viola!!!

MsU - sorry you haven't much time to post these days. But it's nice to know you are still out there lurking sometimes.

Mel. My, he really knows his music, doesn't he? I love music too, but haven't even heard of a lot on Elijah's list. Being 49, I'm from the James Taylor, Joni Mitchell, Van Morrison, B.B. King era, (and I have a passion for Andrea Bocelli, the Italian tenor!) though I do like a lot of contemporary stuff - Coldplay, Bjork, David Gray, Travis etc.

I'm really going now. Bye all.
Love, Blossom.

Spent the afternoon yesterday in the best possible way...wine, Cadmo, and the PJ commentary over the FOTR DVD, with two nephews ...

I have noted the order of those two highlighted (by me) nouns, Viola. Charming.:rolleyes:


from Flourish
I would much rather love these films for all the truly *great* things about them--not the least of which is the glorious opportunity they offer to even the most casual escapist like me to actually LIVE in Middle Earth for a few blissful hours. I never hoped for such a chance when I first fell in love with the books years ago, and I'd be a fool (imo) to disregard it or let the fact that it's someone else's personal vision and not in every detail my own get in the way of my enjoyment of it. It's a gift!

Absolutely and totally agree. For all my grumbles re Wenham, the unscary Nazgul and Sam's corny speech I have to say the movie still whizzes past too fast. And I still feel a faint sense of let down coming back into the real and much more mundane world. I'm definately going to go again!!!!

from Blossom
But I DID come away with the impression that this film Frodo was more determined, more forthright, more outwardly courageous - the Black Gate was well done - HE WOULD HAVE GONE INTO MORDOR ALONE THEN - HE WOULD!!! HE WAS SO DETERMINED!


Yes, me too. And re the "whine" (I prefer to see it as a brief lapse into despair) Frodo not only has just tried to kill his best friend, but has looked into the depths of Hell- straight at a Nazgul on a winged carrion beast. Jackson tragically IMO doesn't emphasise the horror of the Nazgul nearly enough (in the books soldiers throw down weapons, run blindly, fall to the ground etc but Faramirs lot seem awfully together,) and this has a very deleterous effect on Frodo's courage. Nonetheless, it is significant that he stands on the parapet alone: noone is going out there to either save or restrain him. So he gazes at Hell on his own. No wonder he thinks he can't do it. The wonder is that he gets up and tries again. I wouldn't.

Here in the central U.S., there's still time to say, Happy Birthday, Viola!! And here are a few more folks who wish you the same--- :p
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/outtakes/3131-crop.jpg

Lu--That picture of Smeagol is darling! Think they'll make stuffed dolls of him ;) ?

Vita--Always glad when you're on the job keeping up with news on EW's upcoming movies. The article you linked to on the Jim Carrey movie said that the screenwriter is getting so well respected that he can get A-list actors to play even the supporting roles--and specifically names Elijah. So, guess the "bad" news is that he's in a supporting role, but the good news is that some objective observers have decided he's on the A-list. If the movie's anywhere close to the level of wonderful weirdness in the same writer's "Being John Malkovich"--well, this is one I'm really looking forward to!


Originally posted by enaiowen
...I have been defending movie Frodo a long time now and to tell the truth I actually think (prepares to duck) that in many ways the film is an improvement. . .
I've never trouted anyone--yet--but if it comes to defending book-Fro, I'm ready with my Rainbow... Sure, a lot of the character wouldn't work as well on screen, and I love movie-Frodo, especially (maybe because) Elijah's playing him, but to replace him in the book :eek: ?! There's just too much depth to him, of which the movie shows us what it can. The movies are much more layered than most films, but they can't even approach what Tolkien put in the book--regarding characterization most of all (IMHO).
...Even in the books I kept yelling at him to "Just run for Heaven sake. Run!"
Well, it's not like he's deciding to sit there, FGS :eek: !! He's being held by the combined wills of all nine Nazgul, with the WiKi leading them. They aren't able to draw him back only because of an Elven-trained horse, the strength of Frodo's own will, and the name of Elbereth. Even from across the river, the WiKi breaks Frodo's sword and strikes him dumb (so he can't call on Elbereth again, I've always assumed). "Come back... Come back... To Mordor we will take you," isn't an idle threat--it's exactly what their combined wills are trying to do with all the power they can muster. In the face of that, I'd say Frodo does pretty well to hold his ground!

It's something of the same situation at Weathertop. Frodo's resistance is shown differently in the book than it is in the movie, but it's just as strong (funny, I usually have to argue the reverse of that statement ;) ). Again, he saves himself by calling on Elbereth (which Aragorn says later was "more deadly" to the WiKi than the sword) and by "resisting to the last," as Gandalf says. While Aragorn certainly helps drive off the Nazgul, he doesn't save Frodo--and the Ring--as he does in the movie.
I also liked being "let in" so to speak. Book Frodo was always so closed as far as what he was going through. I think that is why some people can come away from the books without an understanding of just exactly what he accomplished and what it cost him.
His "interiority" is one of my favorite things about him. It's what's let me read the book God knows how many times (literally!) over the past 33 years and still keep discovering new things about him and getting new insights into his character. I can see us discussing the nuances and subtleties of movie-Frodo for a few years, but 33? Or, for some people, 48? Like so much in LotR, book-Frodo is made of layers upon layers upon layers; it's always possible to go deeper. A mystery in the true sense of the word, IMHO. It's true you can't completely understand him the first time you come away from the book--if you could, there'd be nothing left to discover. One of the things about the movies that IMO helps keep the "spirit" of the book is that they're able to provide some of that layering, but nothing compared to the book itself.
Showing some very human (and completely endearing frailty? Definitely. You bet.
Yes, definitely, in both versions. :)

I needed to pop out of Lurkworld to say how much I love the (((Faculty)))
Such wonderful, wonderful discussions!
I think I will second Vita's statement that I share the opinion of whoever's post I last read, such is the eloquence with which everyone writes. :) So, at the moment, I am in complete agreement with everything tg has said. :D:D

I'm still in time (half an hour!!) to say
Happy Birthday Viola!!

I love the new RotK pics! The Frodo-hand issue confused me (does it still confuse anyone else?:confused: ) so I edited the would-be hand right out of the picture. And now, finally, I can see Frodo's real hand. Yay!

A Birthday Present - Frodo's Hand! (http://www.imgmag.org/images/daisytighfield/frodoandsam2.jpg)

Keep up the good work, everyone :) :)


edit: Looks like Ariel snuck in right after me, but since any comments I made to her would be practically a double post, I'm going to comment here.

(((Ariel))) Giving opinions is what its all about, Ariel! And I, for one, love hearing yours!! I'm admit without hesitation that I liked FotR better than TTT (lack of hobbit-hugs, among other things ;)) - but that's just my opinon. Everyone has one, and it's a good thing, otherwise none of us would be here! We'd all be lurkers! ;) You're allowed to express criticisms just as much as others are allowed to express their hopes (however misguided you think they may be) that you'll come to like TTT. Though you have made it clear you already do. :)
I'll stop now, since the influx of posts after Ariel's will likley say all that I have said much better than I did. Besides, i think I've gone over my smiley quotient ;)

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
WEll, IYHO of course. We need to be a little careful here - to say we're reading things into the movie that AREN'T THERE is no more valid than for someone to tell you that you just failed to see what IS THERE.

Well, I did say ‘in this viewer’s opinion’ at the end of that statement. And yes, I have been feeling very much like people are trying to tell me that there is something wrong with me because I haven’t seen some of the things they have. Well, I have read the posts, looked at it honestly, and still don’t see what many others have reported. Don’t get me wrong, I do want to enjoy the movie – and much of it I do – but I am not trying to piss people off, I just found there were things about this film – and they had little to do with PJ’s interpretation – that really mar my viewing experience. The don’t need to mar yours and I am glad that they don’t but please don’t be angry with me if I am the one who has the problem. Be glad you aren’t bothered.

And please don’t waste time digging up facts on which neighbor of yours liked the movie – I am glad for them… really… but I couldn’t care less what anyone else liked – I have never listened to the masses with anything and am hardly likely to start now. I had some issues with the movie… things that made it hard for me to enjoy it – that is MY problem. I have kept out of the thread because for some reason people have taken offense to me making comments. Perhaps it is the way I word them, but I don’t see what is so criminal in me liking FOTR better and feeling it is a better movie. That is just my opinion – and I thought that is what this thread was for?

Originally posted by tata bolger
[B]I have no problem with the fact that one has to "work" on the movie to truly understand it or form an opinion. The book LOTR is no less (gee, more! :D) complex. People analyse it and overanalyse it, and look for smth that "is not there" as my snobish co-workers would put it...:rolleyes:

Well, perhaps I am going by a fairly shallow criteria, but I am looking first and foremost to how a film makes me feel. I fell in love with FOTR because of the way it made me FEEL things… It may not be scientific or deep, but that is what I go with first. I don’t think that is a bad criteria – and it is probably one lots of people use – but it didn’t help me in this case.

Tata, your argument about not knowing what Faramir would have done in the book if he saw Frodo face the Nazgul is a good one – but we have so much more to judge him by in that text, that I fancy I would have a pretty good idea of what book Faramir would have done. Movie Faramir just isn’t given to us in enough depth to be able to say too surely so I just went with what ‘I’ would have done considering what we know he has seen. Considering how well PJ has gotten most of the other characters, I really DO feel in Faramir’s case, there are good character development moments filmed that we haven’t seen that would support his actions later. I too want a gander at that cutting room floor!

Originally posted by tata bolger
Enthusiastic yes here!!! Paradox: we had a strikingly different reaction to the movie, yet we both miss the same thing and both agree that this is a flaw. :D It seems that the whole movie impression boils down to the reaction to that single episode: for some it did spoil the whole movie, for some it did not. Fascinating!

Very true, but I wish people didn’t think that it spoiled the whole movie for me. What it DID do was make me feel that FOTR was better than this one, BECAUSE of stuff like that. I didn’t hate TTT – and have stated that MANY times… but it seems people don’t believe me. I wouldn’t put a film I hated as my #2 film of all time…

Originally posted by tata bolger
We can think and rethink this episode through, and I personally do not see it as a change to characters - but rather gaps in storytelling. I do not see it as a logically inconsistent either - given the circumstances and proper brainwork Faramir's decision is fine with me. I only wish it would be supported by a couple of lines from Faz himself, not only by my own speculations.

Bingo. Your speculations are just more generous than mine. I have asked PJ’s website for the real scoop… I would rather his explanations than my speculations.

Flourish – I don’t want to get into an argument, but I do feel that when someone creates a product, especially one that some of my feedback might help, then making comments is necessary. How on earth can someone gauge the effectiveness of his product if there is no feedback? Am I grateful for PJ’s work? You betcha – were there things I felt didn’t work about is production, yes. I have as much right to comment on the product as any of you… And the upshot of your comments seems to me to be, ‘quit your bellyaching, I don’t want to hear it’ – which is something that saddens me greatly. It is as if only ONE view of this film is the acceptable one… and that mine, because I had some issues, is not.

Ariel

tgshaw since you posted while I was typing I'll address some of your observations first. :)
No, I would never want to replace Book Fro with Movie Fro either. Just because he sometimes annoys me doesn't mean I don't love him. (Hey, my hubby drives me crazy sometimes too but I'm not looking for another one LOL)
However I still feel that for myself the movies addressed some minor issues that I had with the book character and that while Book Frodo was lovely there are still some moments that might not have played the way we have them pictured in our minds. I would rather not see them at all than to be disappointed. And yes despite my impatience with our dear Hobbit I do like the Ford of Bruinen in the book and would have loved to hear Frolijah say 'You shall have niether the Ring nor me!" In fact enai might have taken to swooning right then and there :p
But.. I would rather not hear it than to hear some horrible delivery that will be forever etched in my mind. As it is I have Frodo's stand and Arwen's stand which is far better-for me- than a botched version of the original.

Well, it's not like he's just deciding to sit there!

Granted. But all the stopping and starting was more than my poor nerves could take. I just wanted him safely on the other side of the river and he wasn't cooperating! :eek: :rolleyes: :)

As for a movie version, consider all the debate that Osgiliath has raised. Here we are learned collegues all who know full well how it would affect Frodo to be in that close proximity to one of the Nine(even before he got to the the top of that tower) and yet we had folks who thought he was offering the Nazgul the Ring or worse challenging it! If we had that much trouble after being shown time and again that Frodo is acutely affected by their presence how would Bruinen have played to those who don't know that yet? That scene on film -canon though it was-just seemed to drag on and on. And while I feel fairly certain that anything done by PJ and Elijah would be a vast improvement over Bakshi's version, I think there are just some problems inherent in that scene that would make it very difficult to pull off convincingly IMHO.
The same with Frodo's "interiority". Again, while it worked in the book and was certainly part of the enigma that was Frodo Baggins I still wanted a bit more of his POV. And I am not sure how it would work on film. I am remembering that quote from from Elijah when asked whether the script expanded on what Tolkien had written. It stated that the text said "Frodo was silent" Elijah said the script was the same and he had to go from there. Tolkien does that quite a bit with Frodo. He gives several descriptions of him as silent, weary, exhausted, weighed down etc...as readers we can fill in the blanks in our imaginations. We do occasionally get those staggering, heartbreaking descriptions of what he is really suffering through (usually said to us by Frodo) to help with that process but they are few and far between On film you are presented with a living breathing image and it's more difficult to get past the inital impression. I'm not sure how you would be able to portray that aspect of his character without making him appear one dimensional. I am not explaining this very well. I know what I mean but can't seem to get it down here in a way that makes sense. I guess basically what I am trying to say badly is that a quiet, moody , brooding, suffering Frodo could get rather boring after awhile. Remember the complaints from some camps about his very justified extended silence after Moria. There has to be something to keep us conected to him. We lost him in the books I don't want to lose him in the films. I don't want him to be so far beyond our reach or understanding that it's easier not to care. That would truly be tragedy. As I said these thoughts are strictly my trying to work out how some of these things might turn out on film.

Ariel about "stretching"
I can understand where you're coming from here but you know it's funny, that stuff seemed obvious to me from my first viewing on. It was extremely fascinating to discover these boards and observe as everyone hashed all this out and many came to the same conclusions that I had. And yes, I do think that prior knowledge plays a role in some of this but I don't really see that as a problem persay for the following reason.
While I don't particularly like it I do understand the need to sometimes just get right to the heart of the matter if you understand me. Jackson had the very difficult task of trying not to lose the newbies while making us happy as well. I think that as a result there is definitely some prior knowledge assumed. He gives us enough to bring a particular scene to mind and then depends on us to be able connect the dots and fill in the blanks. Doesn't mean I like it, but I can understand.
I was reminded of this tonight while watching the EE with hubby. the SB's came on screen. I was sitting there thinking. "This is great! Book canon yea!" Hubby looks at me and says "So what's up with them?" Since I know the books I could explain but the scene was completely meaningless to him before and he certainly did not seem to have any great enlightenment after my lovely expanation. He just kinda went "oh" and went back to watching the movie. I loved the EE but I do believe that many, though not all, the scenes were strictly there for us. We were the ones that missed them. And bless PJ for giving them to us because I think we are really the only ones who did.
Yes, there are things that would have made the films better for me but I warrant they're not exactly the same ones that would have made them better for you. We already disagree about Frodo's portrayal. I liked it you had some problems with it. It all comes down to interpretation and neither one of them is wrong, just different. Things that worked for some didn't work for others and that's what makes the world go 'round.
Unfortunately, what we have are two beautiful but less than perfect films. I'm not sure that even a page by page version would satisfy everyone because there's still that nagging question of interpretation. It's the reason some see Fro as a failure and an unworthy Ringbearer and we see him as the beautifully noble being that he is. But even though we agree on that point we don't all agree exactly on what it is about him that makes him special to us.
We can't all agree or soon we'd have nothing to talk about.
It's nice to hear from those who agree but I also love to read conflicting opinions because they make me think and whether I agree or not it gives a new twist to an old and much loved tale

(((((Ariel)))))

edited for typos

from enaiowen
...as readers we can fill in the blanks in our imaginations. We do occasionally get those staggering, heartbreaking descriptions of what he is really suffering through (usually said to us by Frodo) to help with that process but they are few and far between On film you are presented with a living breathing image and it's more difficult to get past the inital impression. I'm not sure how you would be able to portray that aspect of his character without making him appear one dimensional.

Much as I love to watch films I think this is one aspect where literature really does have it over film. In both media the readers/viewers bring themselves as specific and unique persons into the reading/viewing and this affects and enriches their experience. It also accounts for the huge variation in response as we are discussing at the moment.

But in a well written book I think there is much more scope for the reader to actively engage. In a film all the external details are handed to you on a plate, in a book they are only sketched and often very loosely ;like the very vague description of Frodo. So you fill in the details yourself and this makes reading the book an intensely personal experience.
Film requires much less imaginative effort- we are viewing and reacting to someone else's vision rather than our own. I think many people today like film in general better than books because they require less effort. But IMO for exactly this reason film is usually less satisfying .

This relates to what tg called "layering". It is possible to give characters, themes etc many more layers in a book simply because its possible for the reader to go back, reread as many times as they wish and at their leisure. Not to mention how much more time the author has: it takes much longer to read a novel than to watch one : even one turned into three films!!!

Frodo's "interiority" is a potential problem for the next film. In the book it works excellently: it gives readers full leeway to imagine Frodo's distress without descending into what when put into words can easily become melodrama. It will very interesting to see how Jackson directs EW in RoTK. I personally believe EW has the subtlety to give us a convincing POV from Frodo without sledgehammer tactics. Whether Jackson (or indeed New Line)will allow him to, remains to be seen.

Its going to be fraught with difficulty though: already many viewers see Frodo as whiny. In RoTK the book it gets worse!!! By Mt Doom he is literally incapacitated. If this is not handled very carefully a lot of viewers may well dismiss Frodo completely as an inconvenient psychotic burden and wonder why Sam doesn't just take the Ring and go on without him. :eek:
Well, I'm just glad its not me writing the script and directing this particular part of the trilogy. There's a fine line between angst and schmaltz. And poor Gollum's debate in TTT with himself shows how what can seem to one person (like me) terribly tragic but to others is a comic moment!!! :eek:

Well, once again enaiowen pretty much said what I would have said, so just consider yourself quoted, Enai. :D

{{{{Ariel}}}} Well, initially I was thinking I was missing something big for loving TTT Frodo when everyone else was saying he's wrong. It took me a bit of time to be happy with the fact that I was happy, that I wasn't stretching, that I wasn't seeing things, and that I wasn't trying to recreate events from prior book knowledge (even from first viewing I thought of movie TTT Frodo as an entirely different entity). But I would never say that it's wrong to not like something - I've been there, done that, for other shows/movies. There were times when I was just plain stubborn uninterested in anyone else's opinion because I was determined to simply not like things. I'm not saying that that's you! I'm just saying that I've been to that extreme before (and no, I'm not proud of it), so I know where you're coming from. :k

Besides, since neither LOTR is my #1 favourite movie of all time I'd rather that not be a discussion criteria ... :cough:

And it'd be criminal if you stayed out of this thread! I mean, one thing we're all agreeing on here has to be the angst! Sure, there's never such a thing as enough angst ;) but oooh, what we got was lovely. Gotta bow to the writers for kindly giving Frodo a most splendid heart attack right at the start of the film. For just that reason alone I'm attempting to make sure I'll be seeing the movie on the big screen as often as possible. How's that for shallow? LOL.

As for my nitpicking with bookFaramir's releasing two hobbits into Mordor. Sigh. It's one of those 'internally consistent to plot but falls apart after I apply knowledge about how wise Captains (as described by Tom Clancy, Frederick Forsyth, et al) are supposed to behave' things. I never doubt the lyrical enchantment that comes from reading those chapters; just that outer elements have bugged the believability bit for me. :rolleyes:

Just speaking for myself, I'm happy to have two different Frodos. Neither's perfect, but they're both mine and I wouldn't say movieFrodo has fewer layers than bookFrodo - if he were I don't think we'd have spent the past year discussing FotR Frodo with the depth we got into. With movieFrodo I'm still tagging along - sure I know the final outcome, but I liked being able to believe at the end of TTT that Frodo is someone who, by traditional movie logic, will be the rightful hero of the Quest. I like the feeling, thinking that PJ had lovingly ensured we'd have this brave Frodo vision to treasure for the year's wait, rather than the canon needs-to-be-rescued Frodo cliffhanger. That's just me. In all seriousness and again at risk of sheer shallowness, these two factors clinched TTT for me. It is a magnificent movie, but I am still too awfully Frodocentric for my own good. :p

----------------

Post is long enough as it is, but a few quick remarks.

It never occurred to me that Frodo's "I can't do this, Sam" could be whiny. Difference in definition. I always associate 'whiny' with well ... sounding whiny. Oh well.

MsU - it's good to know that you're still with us, and we'll always appreciate it when you do have time to post!

From CoE, Samwise the Brave did this:
http://midtown.net/taladine/images/lotr/stb_poster_will_hope_remain.jpg

Blossom - yup, that's what I thought around the second or third time I read 'Choices'. I know canon doesn't support the idea, so there's your proof that I've had sick and twisted ideas since childhood. ;)

Daisy - thank you for Frodo's hand! Oh, give up and delurk full time already! :D

Flourish, well this is a reply to something you said at CoE RotK thread actually, but yeah ... of course you should have known! LOL. You have to watch the Director's Commentary! Lots of wonderful info - at first I grumbled that PJ & co weren't saying enough about Elijah/Frodo, but after a couple more viewings (yes, I know. I need a life) I realised they were saying quite a lot about the importance of Frodo and how good Elijah is. They know what they're doing, IMO, and they know the talent they have. I'm not planning to worry. This is the director who kept the camera on Frodo during the killSam scene: that one long take *and* close-up. And Elijah proved he's more than up to the task, without needing dialogue, without any acting props. Just his face, and his eyes, and his body language.

Elda - yeah, that site has lovely screencaps. After all the rambling I've done here I'll make up for it by posting these. Adorable.

http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/appendix/append010.jpg
http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/appendix/append011.jpg
http://www.elijahhobbit2002.com/appendix/append012.jpg

enai--I guess I misinterpreted your saying movie-Frodo was an "improvement" over book-Frodo as meaning he would be in the book as well. Sorry :o And I'm not saying movie-Frodo isn't a layered, complex character, just that there isn't as much of an opportunity to show that in the movie as there is in the book. I was delighted when the first scene in TTT turned out to be a dream--Frodo's dreams were, I thought, one of the best vehicles for understanding him in the book, and I was missing them. Of course, the dream in the movie doesn't "match up" with any of the ones we witness in the book, but I think it still serves some of the same purpose--getting "inside him" at a completely unguarded moment (as well as--in regard to the movie dream--giving anyone who's been cryogenically frozen for the past year another hour or two of not being certain what happened to Gandalf :rolleyes: ).

I was actually hoping for more than that one dream when a reviewer said Frodo had dreams that led to "weird hallucinations" in TTT. I'm not sure now what she was referring to--underwater in the Dead Marshes, maybe? But "even" in the book, Frodo's dreams have some very vivid visual images that could play well on screen, IMO--especially since we see so many things from Frodo's POV already (Bilbo's and Galadriel's transformations, "Ring-on mode", etc.). Having us experience his loss of hearing in Osgiliath was a fairly good way of showing us that he's not entirely in control, IMHO, but I think even more use of the technique--showing us his sight altering, maybe what Sam looked like to him as he became more affected by the Ring/Nazgul--could have helped viewers understand more what he was going through there.

And in a complete reverse of the way I feel about the book (I've done lots of arguing with people who thought JRRT should have put us in Frodo's POV during RotK), IMHO that could be a useful technique in movie-RotK as well. PJ has said the viewers will identify with Sam in that movie, because Frodo will have gotten so strange (I forget what word he actually used, which is maybe just as well :( ). IMHO, some attention to Sam is appropriate during that part of the story, but if we could see both--what Sam's dealing with as Frodo becomes more incapacitated, and what Frodo's dealing with interiorly that's taking every ounce of strength he has--it could be effective. And from the little Frodo says about it in the book, we know a lot of what he's fighting against has a strong visual element. One reason I like being in Sam's POV in the book is that Sam is so centered on Frodo, and IMHO that brings Frodo into almost a sharper focus as we see him through Sam's eyes, but since the movie can't give us Sam's thoughts directly I don't think it would work as well there.

And I'm very, very glad we haven't gotten "voice-over" moments of directly hearing the characters' thoughts. Now that I think about it, that might be a reason that Sam's soliloquy doesn't feel right to me--as we're shown views of all the various members of the Fellowship and how each is fighting Sauron in his own way, Sam's speech begins to sound like a voice-over (to me) and the whole thing has the effect of making me feel as if I'm looking at the story from outside. Since IMHO both movies have been so good--in general--at letting us inside the story, that's a bit jarring to me.

--------I don't know that I have much to add to the discussion of the Osgiliath episode. I don't like the way it was scripted or edited (I hope no one's swept that cutting-room floor--I want to see it, too), but I don't have any original reasons to add to what's already been said. In FotR, there are scenes that I know I'll always just have to "live with" to enjoy the rest of the movie, and in TTT the two that most stand out are the Wargs-to-Brego section and Osgiliath. The latter has the advantage of Elijah's acting, which is incredible throughout, so I do actually look forward to seeing it each time. But the way the story's told there, IMHO, is pretty confusing. (OTOH, the Wargs-to-Brego section will definitely be time for a few "next chapter" hits on the DVD.)

I have finally figured out what my difficulty with the Osgiliath scenes are, and why that impacted so much of my view of TTT in total after the first couple of viewings.

Warning: You are in for a long post, and one that is strictly IMVHO. I am not trying to force my views on anyone, just to explain my feelings and views.


Intro

Let me start by repeating that by now, I think TTT is a wonderful, beautiful, great film. I love it. (Despite the wargs and Brego and the poor Faramir-in-Osgiliath editing). It sweeps along with so much emotion and magic, portraying and conveying themes and strong topics like courage, beauty, honour, and perhaps first and foremost hope and determination in the middle of hopelessness and despair. I could both cheer and cry.


Frodo's portrayal

I both adore and accept Frodo’s portrayal up until Sam starts his speech in Osgiliath. Throughout the various scenes in TTT, Frodo shows so much strength of will, pity, courage, and silent determination. But he also is made more “real” and “believable” to me through his snapping at Sam, his initial reluctance to admit the Ring’s “addicitive” impact on him, his wish to save Gollum partly in order to find some hope for himself, and his desperation when being forced towards a place where he may be totally overcome by the Ring. All of this is completely understandable reactions that serves to make him a many-dimensional character. The fact that he is not consistently courageous and determined, but shows anger, despair, near-panic and desperation, makes him a character that it’s possible to deeply love and admire, all the more so for his reacting “realistically” given the pressure he’s under.

I find that the “I cannot do this, Sam” line is completely true to the character and the emotions of the story. He has just stared into Hell, as Cadmo puts it. He has almost totally succumbed and killed his own friend. Despite the fact that it *was* his own will that managed to overcome the Ring and so save Sam, still the utter hopelessness of them ever achieveing their goal has been driven home in the worst way. Mortal dangers lurk not only in the form of horrible enemies all around, but also within himself. Even though he knew there was no real hope, it has now been absolutely proven to him, and the worst danger came from within himself. His overwhelming despair, and the way it’s acted out, are completely “right”. (Did I ever mention that I love Elijah’s acting in all of the Osgiliath scenes? :rolleyes: )


About Osgiliath and what doesn't work for me; - and why

I am not a purist in the sense that I want specific scenes from the books to be acted out in full, and I fully accept alterations, additions and major changes. What’s important to me, what makes or breaks the film for me, is whether it manages to engage me on an emotional level the way the book does, whether the film retains and conveys the beauty and wonder and truth that I feel so strongly that this story contains.

And this film manages that in full, up until 2 sentences into Sam’s speech. Then something happens to break the flow and cut off the magic.

I finally figured out what it is. It has nothing to do with Frodo being “whiney” and Sam being “strong”. I think both their characterizations are overall right and true, as long as they stay within the flow of the story.

When Sam starts his speech, the film is almost over. 3 hours of scenes and acting that has show us again and again in a continuous flow that “there is always hope”. All of TTT has shown that there is beauty and goodness and wonder and love in the world even though darkness, horror and despair may seem completely overwhelming at times. And then the magic stops. The film seems to doubt itself suddenly and to wonder whether it actually managed to convey this to the audience. “Did they get it? We’d better make absolutely sure!” And so, here comes Sam to tell us what this is really all about and what we have been seeing. He steps out of the magic and the flow of the film, to hand us a spoken overwiew over what this is about and why they, and the others that are shown during Sam’s speech, keep fighting: This is a “great story”, one that really matters. It’s full of darkness and danger. And we *should* worry; - because how can the end to all this be happy?

And then Frodo steps out of the story and the magic *too*, in order to hand Sam a line and help him move to give us the concluding punchline, like one news anchor to the other in a TV show: “What are we holding on to?” I don’t see Frodo’s question as whiny. I simply cannot see it as a natural part of Frodo’s moving portrayal at all, but rather as Frodo’s contribution to explaining carefully to the audience what this is all about.

Suddenly the 2 of them are telling us, not showing us, what the film is all about. And all at once the magic disappears.

What actually happens here reminds me of the technique that the German playwright Bert Brecht used in his plays. (The technique has a specific name, I don’t know what that is in English. Translated from German it would be "estrangement"). In the middle of a play, the actors step out of the action to deliver soliloquies on the topic of the play, what’s been happening and the meaning of it. Or they direct rhetorical questions at the audience. This prevents the audience from losing themselves in the story and being swept along with the play’s emotions. Instead they are forced to objectively consider the themes of the play, and consider the story and topics as it develops.

This form of theatre has never worked on me. I am just like Ariel, who says:I am looking first and foremost to how a film makes me feel. I fell in love with FOTR because of the way it made me FEEL things.
Poor Sam is really made to drive the point home, too: “But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.” IMO, this is *really* overdoing it. It’s driving the point home with a sledge hammer. It moves beyond true emotion to being plain cheesy, calling out to be parodied. My own reaction to this is the urge to contribute further “famous” lines such as “Tomorrow is another day”……..

And this comes on top of the problems with the editing in the scene that follows; the IMO inexplicable actions of Faramir in letting the hobbits go. I have posted at length about that before, so I won't repeat it.


So; - what *would* have worked for me?

A *very* few changes would have made sure the magic continued, that the flow of emotions wasn’t interrupted. If Sam had just said a few lines conveying his will to go on and his belief that it’s still worth it, without the too-plain reference to the “meaning of great tales”. If Frodo had gotten to his feet by himself, without saying anything, if he had squared his jaw like he does on the riverbank at the end of FotR as he decides to go on. If he’d given the slightest nod and his face had shown willpower and determination in the face of all the grief and despair………

In short, if PJ had remained true to what he’s otherwise done, as Ainon describes here:This is the director who kept the camera on Frodo during the killSam scene: that one long take *and* close-up. And Elijah proved he's more than up to the task, without needing dialogue, without any acting props. Just his face, and his eyes, and his body language.
That would have been enough for me. It wouldn't have made TTT completely perfect (they'd have to re-edit and include more Faramir both at HA and in Osgiliath to achieve *that*!!), but it would have worked much, much better.


Conclusion

My problem with the Osgiliath scene apart from the poor editing and lack of Faramir in the latter half, isn’t Frodo being too "whiny", or Sam being too "bossy", because they aren't. My problem is the fact that the wonder and beauty and magic are interrupted and diminished in order for the film to use the wonderful characters Frodo and Sam to step out of the story for one moment, to stop up and tell me what I have been seeing, to interpret my emotions for me.

It’s unnecessary. It breaks the magic. It undermines the film's belief in its own ability to convey its story and message. I hope they alter it in the EE TTT DVD (when they also add to and improve the Faramir scenes. Please, pretty please, PJ?!)


------------------

Edit:
Obviously I was writing this before tg posted. I think we're onto something of the same.

Frodo's sword and strikes him dumb (so he can't call on Elbereth again, I've always assumed). "Come back... Come back... To Mordor we will take you,"

I can't believe I've never realised before why that was why they struck him dumb!

At least it wasn't permanent - good heavens - can you imagine? :eek: :(

enai, ainon - I can just say 'ditto' to most of your posts and save a lot of cyber-breath!

BTW, ainon, I was scrolling down as I read your posts, and thought, "oh, those are nice pictures" until I saw the last one. It's so wonderful! I'll just have to save it to my hard drive and edit out the guy next to him scratching his nose... it detracts from the overall wistfulness of the picture a little! ;)

Yesterday I said I'd try to find the post on how many of the people I know who DO NOT know the books well, or haven't even read them, were able to pick up on an awful lot that some of those who DO know the books really well seem to feel is missing from the movie. This was from a discussion in the Faramir thread. These are just my observations and thoughts, as I ponder how we 'see' the movie, and how book lovers are reacting so differently to it.

Originally posted by Carleenya
I think you need to be a book reader to get a lot of things in PJ's Movies.

I understand exactly why you say this, and I would agree that in a lot of instances book readers can get a lot more depth out of certain things because of their knowledge (and can enjoy certain things that are obviously 'gifts' to book readers). But from going to the movie with both non-book readers and more casual book readers (as opposed to us, the 'we-have-our-favorite-lines-memorized-and-can-discuss-this-for-hours' reader), I've actually begun to think that sometimes it works against us when watching the movie. Everyone I know who hasn't read the books or who has read them, but only a few times or not for several years, had absolutely no problem with movie Faramir. They said they understood him and his actions, INCLUDING letting Frodo and Sam go.

I admit that as a Faramir lover, my feeling in my first viewing of TTT was that things were 'missing'. But I'm pretty sure now that I felt something was missing because I was looking for my book Faramir on screen, and for particular motivations and interactions, and specific EXPLANATIONS from the book. In that context, letting Frodo and Sam go is not seamless, but within the movie I do actually see motivations for it - I just wish they were expressed more fully (which I understand now means 'expressed more the way they were in the book.')

But the non-book and casual book readers I went with DID feel there was sufficient motivation - and surprisingly enough, the reasons they give are almost always very very close to book canon ('he was a better person than his brother, and knew the ring would only harm his people', 'he knew Frodo could withstand the ring better than he could', 'he knew the ring had to be destroyed, not used'). So whatever PJ did to disappoint the book readers here, he sure did manage somehow to communicate these ideas to a significant part of the audience - and the part of the audience that should have had the MOST problem understanding this, if it was presented inadequately, because they don't have book knowledge to 'fill in the blanks', if that was necessary.

Meanwhile, I'm still trying to figure out how exactly how these people picked all of these ideas up from scenes that book lovers feel so inadequately express them. But PJ must know a little about how to make movies, if so much of what we WANTED to see communicated here was – just not in a way that book canon lovers could ‘see’ it.

********************

IMHO, much the same seems to be true of Frodo’s characterization in the movie. Some book lovers like it – other’s found it really lacking. In the majority of the reviews I’ve read, which I would suspect are largely done by non-book-lover reviewers, many have made comments along the lines of “Frodo’s finally found his mojo.” (This is, of course, a paraphrase! ;) ) And one good friend of mine, who knows the books really well, felt TTT redeemed the character of Frodo, as he had really disliked the ‘weak’ Frodo of FotR, and felt in TTT he was finally showing his strength and inner resolve.

I’m finding it fascinating that we can all watch the same movie and seem to see a very different movie, and yet this does make perfect sense. All the communication classes teach that two people can be in the same conversation, and yet perceive what was said, and what was meant, totally differently. In fact, they can come out with exactly opposite impressions. If that is true in a relatively simple, short conversation, how much more likely it is that it will be true in a 3 hour, multi-layered movie based on an incredibly complex book that we all have ‘interpreted’ ourselves over the years?

The reality is we all don’t view FotR the same way either – we’ve just reconciled ourselves to (or we fast forward through) the parts we don’t like as much. In my case, the things I like in FotR so outweigh the things I don’t that I still receive it every time as a gift, despite the things that make me cringe. There is virtually nothing in TTT that makes me cringe, so from my perspective, I enjoy it as a whole movie even more. But that’s just me. :)

Edit: Much conversation ensued while I was typing! I'll have to come back a little later to read and comment, as I have to go in to work today. :( The pace has definitely quickened in the Faculty!

Maeglian, that was an excellent explanation of what worked and what didn't in the Osgiliath scene. Yes. That's exactly my response to it, except stated much better. :)

tg -- it would be interesting to see some of the Mordor experiences from Frodo's point of view, but I really hope that we don't see anything as over-the-top as Frodo's view of Bilbo or Galadriel. I think the Osgiliath scene was far more effective with the simple effect of blurring the sound, and then showing Elijah and Sean's acting, than it would have been with additional effects. You can tell from Elijah's acting as he drops the sword that he saw SOMETHING that wasn't Sam... and in that case, I would rather use my imagination than see what was in PJ's imagination at the time. The wraith-world works for me, and Frodo's dream works for me, but Galadriel (and to a lesser extent, Bilbo) throw me out of the movie for a moment and make me over-aware of special effects.

Mel

Ariel, it seems that you might have misunderstood me. I thought I was being very careful to say that my last post (about why I'm not fighting these changes) is a comment about me alone, and that I both understand and welcome the fact that others disagree with me. Sorry if that wasn't as clear as I wanted it to be.

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
BTW, ainon, I was scrolling down as I read your posts, and thought, "oh, those are nice pictures" until I saw the last one. It's so wonderful! I'll just have to save it to my hard drive and edit out the guy next to him scratching his nose... it detracts from the overall wistfulness of the picture a little! ;)

Oh, I hope you'll share it with us when you do fix it! :)

Just a very quick post before bed ... great explanation, Maeg. I don't seem to mind it because from the very first I felt like it was a TV movie moment. In other words, a concession, like the Bill the Pony bit outside Moria (which I never would have known was a NL influence if PJ & co never talked about it). If PJ alters that bit for the DVD that'd be great, of course.

Good night Faculty! A little gift, courtesy of Nilmandra at CoE's New Pics thread. We haven't seen him this neat in a while. ;)

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/nilmandra/frodo_close.jpg

(((tg)))

Isn't that what discussion and debate is for :)

Maeglin: I think you've hit the nail right on the head. I have had a hard time expressing just what it is about that bit that bothers me.

Suddenly the two of them are showing us, not telling us what the film is about. All at one the magic disappears.

I do believe that's it exactly. I mean the speech is pretty much straight canon and Sam delivers it beautifully. Frodo's response is lovely as well so I couldn't figure out why it didin't work for me like it should have. By rights I should have been in tears at that point and I wasn't. You have just solidified my thoughts on that for me. Thanks!

Mel: definitely Just step aside and let the boy act! If nothing else that scene in Osgiliath proved he doesn't need any technical help. Of course we knew that already didn't we? :D

Ainon:about Shelob

Yep, that was me :rolleyes: Great minds think alike they say :p
That was the stuff of my worst nightmares for awhile after I read the books. I knew, just knew that Frodo was aware of what was going on around him that Sam was leaving him all alone to die in that dreadful place :eek: :( (hey, I was 11 years old at the time- as well a serious arachnophobe) Well, the latter still applies. I honestly don't know how I will get through those scenes! :(

While I am over here and logged on I might as well drop by and say that I have been reading a lot of your discussion. Probably the most academic Frodo (and movie) discussion on the web... :)

Since I have come to appreciate EW's Frodo much more this time round I really like following the discussion, although I rarely can think of something to say.

Oddly enough I *like* Sam's 'UN' speech.
I do think that the two times when they discuss stories in the books go some way towards what PJ is doing in that scene, as well as Sam's moment when he sees the star in Mordor... for me this works well as representing Sam's extraordinary attitude that (in the book) is coming out much better in Mordor...

For me the intercutting of scenes made it probably less poignant - after all, Sam's sentiments in the book about hope etc. come without any knowledge of what is going on, out of útter hoplessness through ignorance of the doings of their friends in the West.

Still - PJ managed to cut to gether the stories in a way that led towards the end of the film, and that, surely, was the main aim of the exercise, I should guess. After all, PJ was painfuly aware of the difficulty of a film without beginning and end!

And for me Frodo isn't whiney at all. In that I completely agree with Maeglian! Tears were welling up when he said 'I can't do this...' (with Sam's reaction, although, in Osgiliath 'by rights we shouldn't even be here' is somewhat comical, and presumably this is not deliberate).


What can I say? I have problems with the plot holes that leave Faramir's actions without an explanation, but I have no *major* problems with Frodo and Sam (apart from Sam mentioning the ring so openly in frint of everyone!!! :eek: )

Last but not least, I was in some unease about the Nazgul scene - but I have since accepted that the Nazgul doesn't actually see Frodo (like in Minas Morgul) .... I have to say that the IMAGE of Frodo opposite the huge raising Nazgul on his fell beast has the potential of becoming iconic!!!

Elwen

Maeglian- I agree!! That makes so much sense!

Elwen: I loved the hero/great tales discussion in the books but there they are much more intimate and don't feel like a "speech". It just doesn't work for me in movie TTT, though Astin gives it his best shot. The comments where they walk throuh the trees (Sam the brave) seems to work much better. Shorter, punchier, more of a conversation than a speech, book canon and a nice parallel to the end of FoTR.

I am not adding anything here. Just one more post and I can get my avatar. :D

(((Faculty)))

Maeglian and tg hit the nail on the head!! Let me join in the chorus of voices saying that is exactly what was wrong with Sam's speech. I had no problems with what he was saying (aside from that it went on a little too long) it was the fact that he was saying it! PJ breaks his own Rule#1, Show Don't Tell! Also the fact that the speech turns into some kind of voice-over montage doesn't do a thing for the suspension of disbelief that is supposed to be maintained throughout a movie like this! Everyone in the theatre wakes up at this point, suddenly remembering oh yea, i'm watching a movie!, which is not a good thing to be reminded of until the credits roll, IMO.:rolleyes:
Actually, I found Galadriel's earlier speech had a similar effect (all the young captain has to do..etc) or maybe I was just confused as to why Elrond and Glads seemed to suddenly have a telepathic link.:rolleyes:
I agree that the very end of TTT is much better, much more real. They could probably have slipped in a few 'people in great tales didn't know what the end was going to be' lines in there and it could have worked better. Then again...well, who knows.;)

I think the TTT EXT DVD might improve the problem with Brego the Wonder-horse by telling us just why he is a wonder-horse and why he is eager to snog Aragorn.;) Then again, if they edited that whole seqence out altogether it would fix the problem completley!:D

Narya, I agree about what they did to Faramir. I loved him in the book, too, and might not have minded his "improved character arc" if we had just been given a little more explanation behind it! At first I blamed it on the acting, but now I think the problem once again lies in deleted scenes and important dialouge and action that is missing .:( We shouldn't have to wait for November for these things!! :mad:

ainon- you'll never get me to fully delurk, never!
Those behind-the-scenes pictures are adorable, but does anyone else notice that there's someting very wrong with Elijah's left eye??(our right, his left) :eek: I loved that picture at first, but now it scares me!! I'll post it again...for the benefiet of those who loved it ;)
http://www.imgmag.org/images/daisytighfield/append012.jpg
i wonder if he's making faces at dom...

So it's true what they say in the actors'commentary on the SE--

Elijah's eyes *are* digitally enhanced--and not to make them larger, but to straighten them out. . . .:D

(And, um, hello, and this discussion *is* wonderful to read. I shall now re-lurk for a while longer.)

LOL - the poor boy is just recovering from a yawn! The pictures are in sequence - in the third one, it's just taking longer for his right eye to re-open all the way...:)

Narya is very glad there is no camera catching HER expression every moment of the day. :eek: ;)

A good point was made at CoE that Brego the Wonder Horse was actually necessary. Everybody else had made it to Helm's Deep, so Aragorn was the only one who knew about and reported the progress of Saruman's Army, so he essentially served as an inadvertant scout. I had no problem with not explaining who Brego was. I just figured he was some random riderless horse who sensed that Arwen was dipping into her Bottomless Barrel of Grace again :rolleyes:, so Brego wandered over and found Aragorn that way. Even without Arwen, wouldn't Rohan horses be trained to help out humans anyway?

I remember not minding Sam's speech, just the edited overlay of events. Stormyday said "it provided plenty of clues to gather up the coats and the kids and beat the crowd out the door," and she's right. It's definately got a wrap-up feel to it, as is someone looked at the camera and said "okay kiddies, the moral of the story is..." And I still think it was a New Line intervention. I just don't see PJ doing it voluntarily. (By viewing #5 I was tuning out the words and just watching those lovely images of the River flooding the caverns.)

Daisy, you're not alone on thinking Gladdie's speech was of the same ilk. It's funny, I LOVED the Prologue Voiceover, but that's because the voiceover covered events that happened before the FotR timeframe. But you have no business doing a TTT-event voiceover during TTT! (and for the same reason, IMO Bilbo had no business doing a Hobbiton voicoever during Hobbiton on the SEE -- *dodges trout.*) BTW, Glads says "You have forseen it," while we have a cut trailer scene of Arwen saying "Tell me what you have seen." So it must have been another last minute change. *sigh* :rolleyes: However, at least we had no Arwen at Helm's Deep, and for that we should be grateful...

I'm also happy to see eveybody placing the blame for the Faramir mess where it belongs, and not on Wenham or Wood. :) Phillippa Boyens has said that Darling Dave is a "potent and powerful actor," and boy is he ever, mmm-hmm. *cough* My only complaint about Faramir is that there wasn't enough of him. :(

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I REALLY hope that's Elwood in the middle of a wink...yoiks...
Although, that is the same weird Eye configuration that we have in the Phial shot. :eek:

ooh, just saw Narya's post. I guess Lij just had some Eyelid-stickage.

That last pic of Elijah is from the part on the SEDVD where he has just finished yawning. We all look kind of funny after a big yawn.

Edit-
Oops..Sorry Narya. I didn't see you had just mentioned the same thing.

Ainion, You were heading to bed, I was heading to the theater :D

It just keeps getting better and better.

A couple of things that I saw that I wanted to share:

1. At the Black Gate: Gollum's pupils contract while he's talking about the "Tunnel"

2. Osgiliath: Our dear fiesty little hobbit is shrugging the hands off his shoulders as they are being shepherded through the city.

3: Osgiliath: Faramir grabs Frodo and gets him to safety. Sam it appears, is left to follow on his own. Which of course he does. :)

Oh, and for those who are keeping track of Frodo's vest. He still has it at the end of the film. ;)

Maeglian, sign me up to the long list agreeing with you about Sam's speech. Perfect explanation!

Daisy, Glad's speech did sound OK to me up until she mentioned Ring wanting to get to people, and Faramir :rolleyes:. Now, for those stupid, I'll explain what will go on in the last third of the movie... :D

Ariel (and everyone), sorry. I should not have used the words "spoiled the whole movie" - it is inaccurate. At least as far as I know no one here hates it altogether. My bad.

Your comment about how you (we all!) judge movies by how they make us feel is actually very true. Although I love to go back and think/rethink TTT now, I did not do it on the first viewing, but liked it nonetheless. Why? (or why not?) I have only a vague hypothesis (read: "I am hardly making sense, but here goes..":D). The difference is probably deeper - maybe in the very mechanisms our brains process the information and how our emotions arise. Different "buttons" pushed - different result. What we do on/after the repeat viewings is again very individual.
May I blame it all on the Myers-Briggs personality type, please... :D *smack* Gee, what was that? :confused: Trout?... :confused: Err... Elda?... :D

Re: scenes on the cutting room floor. I am surprised that Erendis, The Voice of Reason :k, still did not rightfully comment that there might not be all-that-much character development in there, or at least not what we are hoping for... But hope dies last...;) At least we know there is a speech for the dead Southron - may work very well setting up the Faz character.

Narya, about PJ's setup of Faramir's decision in the eyes of the newbies. I think PJ did a very good job presenting the Ring's power, explaining it's history and ways, Boromir's story was v. well done, Council and the decision to destroy the Ring - v.clear. It is not the problem for newbies to understand right from wrong and what should/should not be done. But, strictly speaking, Faramir did not see any of these events! We (and newbies) have to assume that he has prior general knowledge about the Ring and it's power (which is book canon - he is Gandalf's pupil), and Osgiliath was just a last thing that finally made his mind. Maybe it is easier/more natural for newbies to "bridge" the events, they had to do it in more places than book-reader's did.

Elwen, I suspect that image of Frodo vs Nazgul is what determined my whole impression of the scene. I saw the little hobbit facing THAT, and my heart just skipped. Later we may analyse and conclude... but to be honest, it was that moment that sold me the Osgiliath in the theatre the first time. The power of imagery...

Originally posted by erendis
I remember not minding Sam's speech, just the edited overlay of events. Stormyday said "it provided plenty of clues to gather up the coats and the kids and beat the crowd out the door," and she's right. It's definately got a wrap-up feel to it, as is someone looked at the camera and said "okay kiddies, the moral of the story is..." And I still think it was a New Line intervention. I just don't see PJ doing it voluntarily.

It totally feels like New Line intervention. Perhaps it made them nervous that a lot of people felt like FoTR "just ended!"...as if there's something wrong with that. Is the movie-going audience so stupid that they need a big closing speech to tell them to get their popcorn bags off the floor and start filing out the door? And it had the kind of "TV" feel to it that PJ so adamantly said he was trying to avoid. He fought really hard with New Line over not putting a "what happened last time" prologue onto TTT, and he won that battle. Alas, I think he lost the battle over how the movie ended.

Re: Post-yawn eye stickage. Elwood was also shaking his head in that shot, the kind of "whoa!" thing you do when you're trying to wake yourself up, so that could also account for the mis-matched gaze.

Tata...did you say Myers-Briggs?????

Elda pulls a chain. A trapdoor opens above Tata's head and she is buried in an avalanche of trout. :p ;)

Tata, I would have thought these people were ‘bridging’ gaps if any of them had referred to things they knew from the previous movie or even previous events in TTT as justification for Faramir’s actions, but none of them did. They always talked about things that specifically happened in the interaction between Faramir and Frodo.

As book lovers, we want to see more, because we know there is so much more to see – and we feel there isn’t enough of the wealth of material available actually shown in the movie for it to make sense. But I’m wondering if this isn’t like looking at a large fish net, with thick ropes. Because we’re used to a net with large ropes interwoven with a much finer mesh, and the fine mesh is missing, we only see the holes – the larger ropes that are left don’t seem sufficient. But those who aren’t looking for the fine mesh are looking at this net, and although they’re only seeing the larger ropes, it still looks like a perfectly fine net to them, capable of catching fish just as efficiently as one with a finer mesh would.

The people I know who don’t know the books really well, or at all, have told me they have no problem with the Faramir scenes, either in his interaction with Frodo and Sam, or in his decision to let them go. When I ask them why, they always give answers directly from that interaction – never from a broader perspective. In other words, no one has said “well, he lets them go because Gandalf would have wanted it” or “he obviously knew about the history of the ring” or anything of that nature. Their explanations have always been combinations of believing Faramir came to trust Frodo (because he tried to protect Gollum, because he tried to warn him about the ring, because when Sam told him about Boromir Faramir realized Frodo had been protecting him from knowledge of his brother’s weakness), and thinking Faramir came to realize how terrible the ring was, and how little it would serve him (the ring tempted him, the ring brought the Nazgul to them, the ring had a power that could not be controlled by him or any other man.)

Maybe these aren’t the fine mesh we would have liked to see PJ put in the movie, but they are not ‘bridges’ IMHO – they’re actual ‘ropes’ within the Faramir / Frodo scenes that seem to have made enough of a net for the interaction and its results to make sense to people who weren’t anticipating and looking for the fine mesh.

(After writing this post, I’m beginning to feel a little tied up in ropes myself… :rolleyes: and I have absolutely no clue if this will make sense to anyone but me... ;) )

Narya, that made sense to me. :) Like you, I find it very interesting and surprising how the non-readers seem to "get" Faramir and his motivation from the F&F scenes alone. I would never have thought so.


About Faramir

My own experience from discussing the film (with people who *have* read the book, but aren't in any way into Tolkien/LotR fandom) is that they are consistently fine with Frodo's portrayal (more so than I was in the beginning), but they gripe about Faramir, who they believe was shortchanged and altered too much. The comment most commonly heard is that he was so honorable and likable in the book, and in the film that didn't show in his character or his actions until the very end. They think he seemed very harsh and proud and even "violent". These comments are made by people who have read the book once and therefore had pre-conceived notions about Faramir, and who only go to see the film once, and so do not discover the "layers" and the nuances that Wenham and PJ put into the character. Those become apparent only upon repeated viewings, which I think all of us here have experienced.

While I do appreciate that PJ apparently did get Faramir and his motivations right and understandable for non-readers, I still think he didn't completely nail him for many more "casual" readers and movie-goers, and the number of people who have actually read the books is significant and growing.

We'll see what happens in RotK. Seeing the screen time given to the royal family of Rohan in TTT, I hope equal time is given to the Steward of Gondor's family in RotK. From AICN spoilers and comments made by Philippa Boyens I believe that will actually be so. And thinking of the events in the book, and the spoilers, my anticipation is simply skyrocketing. (Argh! And I've promised myself I won't do the anticipation overload one more time. )


Galadriel's voice-over

About the "show, don't tell" approach to TTT, I agree that Galadriel's voiceover should have the same effect as Sam's speech in stopping the action and breaking the magic, in order to make sure that the audience really "gets it". And I do think her VO is not in any way necessary in the film. But luckily, for some reason though, Galadriel's VO doesn't break the flow for me and I don't mind that it's there.

I think there are 2 reasons for this. Firstly, her comment; "It works hard now to find its way back into the hands of men. Men, who are so easily seduced by its power. The young captain of Gondor has but to extend his hands, take the ring for his own and the world will fall. " That one actually serves to build suspense for me. It's not; "Look here's what is happening, do you get it? It's rather; - "Look, here is what the odds say is likely to happen in the next scenes. But..... will it? And also this part of the VO helped me understand what exactly the Ring is doing in HA, and it underlines how amazing it is when Faramir later on doesn't claim the Ring after all.

Secondly, although I will certainly never manage to reach a level of Angst Maven-ness like for instance Ariel or ainon, I shudder each time at: The strength of the ringbearer is failing. In his heart, Frodo begins to understand. The quest will claim his life. That goes straight to *my* heart. :(

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Ainon, thanks for the pictures! I love them (strange eye movements and all)!

Blossom, I forgot to answer your question last time: No, I am not vegetarian, but I am considering it, because of my strong views on animal care and welfare.

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
The people I know who don’t know the books really well, or at all, have told me they have no problem with the Faramir scenes, either in his interaction with Frodo and Sam, or in his decision to let them go. When I ask them why, they always give answers directly from that interaction – never from a broader perspective.

I also found this to be true. My husband, who has still not read the books :rolleyes: had no problem with Faramir letting Frodo go. When I asked him why, he gave answers similar to the ones Narya received. He felt that PJ gave Faramir sufficient reasons for him to make the decision he did, particularly Sam's outburst about Boromir. Hubby says that alone would have made him seriously consider his position regarding the ring.

I also had no problems with Faramir, and I can't tell you how many times I've read the book. Once I got past my initial puzzling reaction to the film, I was pretty much fine with the content and how PJ decided to put it all together.

Welcome to Faculty, Primula Baggins! :) For all who don't go to CoE, Primula posted the most heartwrenching speculation for how RotK might end, pre-Havens departure. It's so good to have you join us here!

Hi Elwen! Actually, I think Sam's "By right we shouldn't even be here" is PJ's little nod to disgruntled fans. :p

Originally posted by Maeglian
Narya, that made sense to me. :) Like you, I find it very interesting and surprising how the non-readers seem to "get" Faramir and his motivation from the F&F scenes alone. I would never have thought so.

Which is why we shouldn't underestimate the audience. :) Sure, there are idiots who laugh when someone is dying on screen, or idiots who keep poking their partner and asking, "Who's that?" every time a supporting character that had just been introduced five minutes ago appears on screen. If we ignore these idiots, there are plenty who get the story, because all the essentials are there for them to see. And at least for me, my undertanding of the Faramir parts of TTT was based only on what I saw on screen. I don't think I could fall back on the book even if I wanted to considering how different the circumstances are.

Anyway, I'm someone who barely remembers what Faramir is like in RotK. My Frodocentric reading habits meant that I hadn't reread Book 5 of RotK in years - I suppose that means I have no preconceived notions of just how Faramir should be. But when I saw TTT, I immediately liked Faramir, and liked the idea that I'll be seeing him again in the next movie. Same goes with Eowyn - I barely remember her either, but now I can't wait to see her kick some wraith butt. ;) So IMHO, PJ did a marvelous job to get me anticipating these two in the next movie, especially since neither one is a hobbit!

Narya, what you said was perfect, btw. Exactly. It's the difference between theatrical release and Extended Version, IMO. The former is what I would recommend to people who just want to get to know the story. The latter I'll recommend only if they're curious to know more. As lovely as the extended version is, I happen to agree with most of the cuts that were made. And get the trouts ready ... I agree with cutting out Lothlorien, since it allowed the movie to stay within its 3 hour mark. Those scenes are special to us, but to an audience that just wants to catch a good yarn, lembas is just food, cloaks are just cloaks that are useful camouflage, and Legolas and Gimli would have bonded anyway because they're like the quintessential buddy couple. :p We did lose Galadriel's happier, sunnier side, but again, that's a special thing for fans.

enaiowen:
2. Osgiliath: Our dear fiesty little hobbit is shrugging the hands off his shoulders as they are being shepherded through the city.

3: Osgiliath: Faramir grabs Frodo and gets him to safety. Sam it appears, is left to follow on his own. Which of course he does.


I love number 2 as much as I love the moment in HA, when he wakes up and looks calmly at Faramir looming over him. Number 3 reminds me of the corn field scene, in FotR. Such is Sam's fate ... no one ever remembers that he's there too!

Daisy
ainon- you'll never get me to fully delurk, never!

Yeah. I can see that. :D


Well, we do know Elijah's eyes aren't the same size. Or something. It wasn't so obvious when he was a kid.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/foreveryoungkecik.jpg


Hmm. Haven't done froshadowings in a long while. Here's one, although admittedly while watching 'Good Son' I wouldn't have minded if EW put MC out of his misery. Would have saved us from 'Richie Rich' ...

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/goodsonkecik.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/osgiliathpoint.jpg

Ringbearers do have that telepathy thing going between them, don't they? Elrond and Galadriel having a midnight conference was okay with me. Not surprisingly, I appreciated what Galadriel has to say too.

Cue some angst, anyone?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/asakit1.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/asakit2.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/asakit3.jpg


I miss deluby ...

ainon!

:eek:

Go, reread book 5! It is really worth it. Honestly!!!
tsk tsk.
There must be such a thing as too much Frodo-centrism.


Anyway - nice take on PJ's hint to the fans. You might be right at that, now that I think of it. :)

Elwen

Originally posted by Elwen
Go, reread book 5! It is really worth it. Honestly!!!
tsk tsk.
There must be such a thing as too much Frodo-centrism.

You might be right, Elwen. :p

Although that has never been the way I approach LOTR. I loved everybody in LOTR when I first read it, and I do mean everybody. Well, apart from Tom Bombadil. :p I loved Faramir and Eowyn from the word go -- especially Faramir. And Sam. And Frodo. And everybody.

Frodo didn't start out as my favourite character, he developed that way. Gradually I came to find his character -- and Sam's too for that matter -- as particularly interesting, because of his traumatic soul-quest and the way he (and Sam too) develops.

ainon,

could you please provide a link to Primula's post-RoTK speculation? I was over in CoE (a rare excursion) but couldn't see it.

Just passing through to let people know that as a result of increasing unease, reinforced by consternation at the effect two names clearly had on movie Smeagol, I have petitioned the gods (Moggy) and had my name changed. To the short version. Yay. :)


Going back to read posts now..

Pearl, I'll repost the relevant part of my RotK speculation at CoE (though I think Ainon was being generous--thanks, Ainon!).

I was watching FotR:SE tonight (*again*) and suddenly saw part of it in a different light. PJ, from what I've seen, loves to draw parallels between different parts of the story. Well, here's one that I think might play out in RotK. It's speculation based on the picture on page 54 of the "Making of the Trilogy" book (which, as discussed in this thread, seems to show Frodo writing in the study at Bag End).

Bilbo, writing in the study in the opening of the SE: "...the third age of this world...." Pauses, puts pen to mouth. "Where to begin?" [much on hobbits] "There's always been a Baggins at Bag End...and there always will be."

Frodo, writing in the study at the end of RotK: "..the fourth age of this world...." Pauses, puts pen to mouth. "Where to end?"

Then, "There's always been a Baggins at Bag End...

"...but no more."

:(

Now back to lurking. I really try not to post until I've been reading for longer than this. . . .

Thanks, Primula. :)

Your speculation tugs at my heart-strings! :eek: :(

Originally posted by Primula Baggins
Bilbo, writing in the study in the opening of the SE: "...the third age of this world...." Pauses, puts pen to mouth. "Where to begin?" [much on hobbits] "There's always been a Baggins at Bag End...and there always will be."

That line slays me every single time. :(

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

How am I going to cope with the sob-fest which will be RoTK???

Primula, welcome! :) I had you mixed up at first with Azalea Baggins. Sorry - my bad!
And what a heart-wrenching and believable RotK ending speculation. You may well be right.......


Prim, congratulations on getting your name back. :) I like it ever so much better than Cadmo.


Pearl; I'm keeping my fingers crossed that RotK will be *the* sob-fest of a lifetime, one that we very barely manage to survive. The only thing that would be worse is if it isn't. :eek: I really don't see how that could happen, though, with the events we know they are going to cover, and those we hope they'll include.


ainon; - great Froshadowing. Yes, it *is* time we started looking around for more of those, isn't it. And something tells me the Eye-induced heart attack is one of your TTT favourites. Don't ask me why; - just an inkling I have. :D Well, count me in too! Especially when seen in that lovely deep blue shading........ :o


I miss Deluby, too!

Hi everyone!

Hi Primula, nice to see you! :) Hiya to Maggie too and all the other newbies and lurkers!

I'm really enjoying reading all these thoughts on TTT, this place is just a great place to be :)

Prim, that's cool you got your old name back, {{{hugs}}}

MsU - lovely to hear from you, hopefully you will be able to come back soon.

ainon - thanks for the adorable yawning screencaps! Isn't he just so precious?

Mel - thanks for the interview! His musical tastes are so diverse, he's into so many bands I've not heard of!

Blossom - glad you like the name shortening! Thanks for sharing your reasons for your name, that's sweet of you. BTW are you American? An American living in England? Cos I noticed you put 'mom' instead of 'mum'? :D Jed returns Holly's :k - hey maybe we could get an doggy internet romance going on here! :D

I saw the film with a friend today for the 4th time and am enjoying it more and more with each viewing. There was quite an interesting bunch in the cinema - one lady sitting a few seats behind us gasped really loudly when Aragorn went flying off the cliff - it was pretty funny! Also there was a group of people sitting down the front who were hee-hawing with laughter when Gollum and Smeagol had their 'argument'. I mentioned people's reaction to that scene to my friend later and she said that she 'felt sad for Gollum'. I was impressed as she's not read the book, so it shows that Gollum is coming across to audiences the right way. Though it would probably take a second viewing for non-readers to see through the immediate 'funny' side of the Smeagol/Gollum argument.

Here's an interview with Elijah taken from Gear Magazine, I don't think it's been posted here yet. It's pretty interesting but I think it was conducted quite a while ago as there's mention of the Franka person ;) Also there's some swear words (raps Lij's knuckles) but don't let that put you off.

Link removed.

He is such a strong, inspiring person - I really admire his honesty and values :)

Bye for now,

Luth x

Just popping in really quickly to share one more observation from my last viewing that I forgot when I posted before. This one has to do with the audience rather than the film itself.

I was listening to the various conversations people were having as they were leaving and I heard one gentleman-who appeared to be a non or maybe very casual reader but obviously repeat viewer say to the person he was with as Gollum's song played. "That's the song I was talking about. Listen to the words. I think it's Liv's song." :eek: :confused:

His musical tastes are so diverse, he's into so many bands I've not heard of!

I'm so glad you said that Lutheia. I thought the same thing but put it down to approaching old age!!! :eek:
It's a bit easier to delude myself that I'm not a has-been now. ;) :k

Some of the audiences I've sat with laughed at Gollum also. I know his debate is bizarre, yet I think its so tragic. I always feel a bit sick at that point. Which is good really- I never felt even the remotest bit of compassion for book Gollum.

re Primula Baggin's ending theory (Hi Primula) and not intending to cast Pearl into further despair: but was there no other branch of Baggins apart from the Sackville Baggins???

Originally posted by Prim


re Primula Baggin's ending theory (Hi Primula) and not intending to cast Pearl into further despair: but was there no other branch of Baggins apart from the Sackville Baggins??? This piqued my interest so much that I pulled out the book and checked the family tree. On that tree, not only was Frodo the last Baggins, but Lotho was the last Sackville-Baggins. Who knows whether some might have been left out, though...

Concerning Gollum's Song: I had been wondering if that might not have been Liv, knowing that she (supposedly) recorded something for the soundtrack. Has anyone done a search on the listed singer?

Luthiea - Hi. Thanks for the link to that interview. It made interesting reading. If it's genuine (I'm always a little suspicious about these things) it emphasizes just how grounded Elijah is, and in his line of work, with everything going on with his career at the moment, it must be diffficult. I do respect his decision to be his own person, to be who and how he wants to be, as opposed to how 'other people' expect him to be. I like his reasoning on what defines a man, and I admire his honesty there.

What was that he said? 'I feel that women aren't as attracted to me as I'd like them to be!!!':confused: :confused: :confused: The next time that thought pops into your gorgeous, beautiful, modest head, Elijah, just come here - there are plenty of ladies in The Faculty who would beg to differ on that point!:) :) :)

Btw, Luthiea - No, I'm not American. I'm English. I think my 'mom' was a slip of the tongue in typo, though I'm from the midlands, so with my dodgy accent it would probably sound like, 'mom' rather than, 'mum.'

A romance between Holly and Jed? Aaaah!!! But she's not that sort of girl! ;) :)

Must go to bed. Bye for now.
Blossom.

Originally posted by enaiowen
<snip> I was listening to the various conversations people were having as they were leaving an I heard one gentleman-who appeared to be a non or maybe very casual reader but obviously repeat viewer say to the person he was with as Gollum's song played. "That's the song I was talking about. Listen to the words. I think it's Liv's song." :eek: :confused:

[/lurk] Oh, Enai -- you've got to go post that GEM over in the "Theatre/er" thread in the TT section of the Trilogy Forum. :eek: :D It's too good not to share! :cool:

Welcome to the Faculty, to all the newcomers and delurkers. :) It's a lovely place here .... :) And Primula, your speculation is very cool. The angstometer would *break* if that's actually done, of course .... :eek: :( :D I'm afraid to hope! :eek:

I'm still meditating on the bookFrodo/movieFrodo changes and how I feel about them .... it's a long road, and I'm a worrier! :eek: But I don't have a complaint in the world about EW's performance .... If five times is the secret, Pearl, I guess I need to hie myself to the theatre again sometime this week! :D

[lurk]

I think Sam's "By right we shouldn't even be here" is PJ's little nod to disgruntled fans

Actually, Sam says exactly that in the books...albeit at a different place. I loved the Osgiliath scene..the visuals were astonishing.

As far as Sam's speech goes...they cut that in during pick-ups. I don't think it was a New Line request. They needed a way to end the movie, basically - to bring it all together and they decided to do it with a montage and VO by Sam. Sean had the speech faxed to him and he did it in a sound studio. He's an excellent actor, because I have seen the movie 7 times now and can't tell from his voice where the orginal scene ends and the pick-up begins.

Yes, it IS "telling" instead of "showing" but the average audience NEEDS that, especially after a 3-hour movie with 3 totally different plot lines. So I can forgive it...besides, it was more Sam. :D

Also, as far as the "Gear" article and Elijah's swearing...by all reports, he swears like a sailor (and smokes like a chimney) If you read any of his interviews in more "adult" mags (such as Rolling Stone) you'll find 4-letter words coming out of that adorable little mouth with alarming regularity. :eek:

Gollum's Song:

I think the singer's name is Torrelini or something like that. Don't
have my CD handy to check.

In any case from the context of the conversation it souded like he couldn't remember Arwen's name and so was referring to Liv instead. :)

Hey, wanted to let you all know in case you haven't read the Bulletin Board yet - it appears that the Versaphile site is being hacked by adult websites, so when you link to a picture there, a decidedly non-PG picture sometimes appears instead. Therefore, we will have to disallow linking to that site. Again, if you want to use a pic from there, just snag it and put it on an ImageMagician account of your own. Thanks. :)

I have had people in my theaters who laughed as well but it seems to be just right at first. When Gollum says "Murderer" most of the laughter stops.

I myself find them to be quite unsettling-especially the one in HA "Why does it cry Smeagol" :eek:

However, I do prefer them when the focus stays on Gollum and you can see him shifting back and forth. The way his facial expressions and demeanor change between Gollum and Smeagol is fascinating. The initial one changed camera angles to make them appear to be seperate entities and didn't work for me quite as well.
Still had some first timers at my last viewing. There was a lovely young gentleman sitting next to me who got quite a shock when Gollum dropped those conies in Frodo's lap. :D


Well, it is 11:00 here and Enai is going to bed.

(((((Faculty)))) Goodnight.

I don't have anything relevant to add to the discussion at the moment, but a friend of mine has been making some gorgeous screencaps of TTT (don't ask how. Keep it secret. Keep it safe!), and she gave me permission to share this one:

http://www.imgmag.org/images/bananachunks/16.jpg

I hope she passes more along to us! :cool:

(If you happen to see this, sweetie, thanks! :k )

My Gawd, you people are wonderful thinkers. This has been the best thread on the site since it first began (all the way back before CofE to Imladris, wasn't it?) and it has not lost a whit of value in all that time. The posts today are still as informative, insightful, thought-provoking, and well expressed as anything found anywhere on the Web. One cannot just "glance over" the last few pages and jump right into the conversation here - it takes uninterrupted concentration, and I for one am addicted to the endorphin rushes when a new concept or explanation strikes home! :cool:

That said, I have nothing of worth to add. :rolleyes: I have loved every post and every minute of the effort it took to catch up with four kids in the house! However, I do have a question....
Originally posted by tata bolger
Re: scenes on the cutting room floor. I am surprised that Erendis, The Voice of Reason :k, still did not rightfully comment that there might not be all-that-much character development in there, or at least not what we are hoping for... But hope dies last...;) At least we know there is a speech for the dead Southron - may work very well setting up the Faz character. tata, to what speech for the dead Southron are you referring, and how do we know that it was filmed? I obviously missed something!

I am hoping you refer to Sam's internal thoughts on the possible life of the dead Southron at home and how he got involved in the battle, etc. from the book. I loved that glimpse of Sam's good heart in the book, but never dared hope it would be filmed, as I don't know how I would do that without dialogue. Am I way off base? Please explain further!

Thank you all for everything! Just everything! (((FACULTY, OLD & NEW)))

Originally posted by Carleenya
I am hoping you refer to Sam's internal thoughts on the possible life of the dead Southron at home and how he got involved in the battle, etc. from the book. I loved that glimpse of Sam's good heart in the book, but never dared hope it would be filmed,

Well, it was filmed. Only they gave the lines to Faramir, not Sam. Whether it makes it into the ExDVD remains to be seen.

I have had people in my theaters who laughed as well but it seems to be just right at first. When Gollum says "Murderer" most of the laughter stops.

In my four viewings of The Movie, most of the laughs came from the "you don't have any friends" line, but everybody was deadly serious for the rest of the debate. I have to admit that that line made me smile a bit too.
[OT - though the one time I did feel very guilty for laughing during my first viewing was for Gimli's "You could have picked a better spot" because all around was so serious I actually thought it inappropriate to laugh]

Anybody else notice that just before the Smeagol / Gollum debate, Frodo is seen lying fast asleep not bothering with the ring at all? Maybe when Gollum caught him fondling it earlier in the Dead Marshes scared him out of petting it. In fact, we don't see him petting it all all after the Dead Marshes, do we?

Again, I'd just like to say thanks to all the Faculty for such wonderful comments and discussions. I have very little to add to it (not very articulate when it comes to writing, even less articulate when it comes to speaking :)), but I do really enjoy all this discussion.


Maeg:
...would like to hear much more about when we meet (only 2 weeks now!! )

Yes, just two weeks to go. Nervous yet? I am - though looking forwad to it too :)

Blossom ... since you'll be watching the movie on that Saturday anyway, I don't suppose we could persuade you to come to London to watch it with us pretty please . I understand about shortage of funds, but it would be great to see you.

Hello Jewelsong!

Bunnie - please thank your friend for that screencap. I do hope she'll share more too!

Luthiea - thanks for that's a great interview! So there's the breadwinner issue again. And the house belongs to him. Does Jay Leno know this? :p

Elevensies - :eek: Sorry about the versaphile link! That was the one screencap I didn't have to time to upload to my imagemagician account. :o I've fixed it now, and when I can, I'll go back and delete other links from previous posts.

Elwen - I'm waiting till after the movies to reread the books. I like the feeling of being 'reminded' of nonFrodo stuff while watching. ;)

Enai - ROTFL! Arwen singing curses at Frodo?! And we thought she adored him so in the last movie ...

Eyrie - nope, we don't see Frodo petting the Ring anymore after the Dead Marshes. I get a chill every time I see him do that, even as I admire how Elijah is silently channeling Ian Holm there. The "It's mine! My own!" bit gets me every time too. Never would have thought that Frodo would get his chance to say those infamous Ringbearer lines, and in that almost re-enactment of Bilbo's confrontation with Gandalf in Bag End. Anyone else half-expecting Frodo to also say, "My Precious"?


----------

So 'Try Seventeen' is to be released in theatres? Here's the movie poster: http://always.ejwsites.net/images/17Movie.jpg

I've seen 'Ash Wednesday'. Tonight I'd just like to tell you all about the cover of the VCD. There's the title 'Ash Wednesday'. We see Elijah's face, smaller than Edward Burns' face. The names of two of the movie's actors grace this cover: Brian Burns, Elijah Wood. Who the hey is Brian Burns, you ask? Well, the end credit lists the names in order of appearance, and Mr. Brian Burns' name is first. Interestingly enough, Elijah's name is 4th. Edward Burns, alas, is buried way around 10th credit or so. Clearly the first name on the actor's list couldn't be ignored, but the fact that Elijah's name is being used to sell this movie is making me so proud of our boy's growing fame.

And shamed. Very shamed. As I should be. But oh, I really wanted to share that bit of 'trivia' with the Faculty. LOL.

Umm ... if anyone's wondering why I'm being so vague about this odd little tale, my hint is: I'm in Asia. We have ... sources.

-----------

Froshadowings

I forgot to define what that is for all our newbies and lurkers out there! Froshadowing is when we find a scene done by Elijah during his early acting years, pre-LOTR of course, that reminds us of Frodo. Elijah's done enough movies in his lifetime for us to be able to find Froshadowings for almost every Frodo scene, and in some cases compare how much he's grown - literally and as an actor. I have no idea why we do this, actually. Was it so that we could justify our need to watch every Elijah Wood movie ever made, including 'Flipper'? :D

These are from 'Ice Storm', obtained from www.elijahhobbit2002.com

We rarely see the kid laughing, so I thought this would be lovely to see on this page.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/mikeylaugh.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/mikeylaugh2.jpg


ICE STORM SPOILERS : ENDING OF MOVIE

These are possible Froshadowings for 'Return of the King'. I'm posting only links, because these pics reveal the ending for 'Ice Storm'. Please do not look if you don't wish to be spoiled for 'Ice Storm'.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/mikeyamati.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/mikeybmati.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/mikeymati.jpg

Aw, ainon, you're making me cry. :( Po widdle Mikey. :(

Correction: Upon further investigation, turns out the aforementioned site itself contains adult content, so it's not permitted to link to anything there. Sheesh. Hope a few sites out there will stay clean.

Originally posted by tata bolger
Re: scenes on the cutting room floor. I am surprised that Erendis, The Voice of Reason :k, still did not rightfully comment that there might not be all-that-much character development in there, or at least not what we are hoping for... But hope dies last...;) Yep. Wet blankets and dry humor, that's me. :D :D :D

Of course Tata's right, and now she's being the wet blanket. :k Who knows what's going to make it into the TTT SE DVD? I have to admit the FotR SE DVD was a bit of a shock. For nearly a year I had been selfishly mentally "filling in" the "lost exposition" for FotR newbies with my own images with such concentration, that I think I subconciously convinced myself that those scenes were on the DVD. And when, lo and behold, my little mental movie wasn't there, :eek: I was disappointed -- how dare PJ have different ideas than me. :rolleyes: Go me. :rolleyes:

I'm sure there are Aragorn people out there who are mentally filling in about Brego the Wonder Horse, and Arwen people out there who are mentally filling in a few more kisses and Frodo people who are unconciously fully expecting Feisty Fro to magically appear in November. ;) They oughtta know better. And I am sure that there's a Totally And Officially Slain Faramir Swooner out there who is fully expecting the Perfect Captain to magically appear in November. And SHE oughtta know better. ;)

EE; - Nervous, who, me? (Realizes that came out in too squeaky a voice and wows to rehearse saying it with much more confidence) No, I'm not. Or not very much, anyway....... I'm really looking forward to the hoot. :) :cool:

ainon, you have seen Ash Wednesday and all you talk about are the credits? :confused: This is just to build up suspense because you'll post your review of the film soon, right?


Vague spoilers for Ice Storm
*
*

Those pictures of happy Mikey are really nothing but angsty beyond words, after you've seen the film. What tragic irony that he is so happy and carefree and unafraid of molecules just then....... :(
We recently had an ice storm here too, with rainfall that froze on the ground and was made slick by more rain. It was almost impossible to walk on plain ground, lots of people broke their legs or wrists, and I can say for certain that I would never have even crawled, much less walked and skipped, out on a diving board over an empty pool! In that scene, Mikey *really* has his head far, far up in the clouds, feeling completely invincible or immortal and *alive* because of the clean air and the icy beauty.........

But yup, those links could well be Froshadowings for RotK.


*
*
End Ice Storm stuff

We don't see Frodo petting the Ring anymore after the Dead Marshes. I get a chill every time I see him do that, even as I admire how Elijah is silently channeling Ian Holm there. The "It's mine! My own!" bit gets me every time too. Never would have thought that Frodo would get his chance to say those infamous Ringbearer lines, and in that almost re-enactment of Bilbo's confrontation with Gandalf in Bag End. Anyone else half-expecting Frodo to also say, "My Precious"?Yes, certainly. I have to stop myself from whispering "My precious" for him in the cinema. I even thought it was a bit over the top at first, until I realized Frodo believes he's referring to the Task, not the Ring itself.

In the intro to the Smeagol/Gollum debate, I think we see Frodo sleeping with the Ring grasped firmly in his hand, although he isn't petting it, just holding it. The skin on the back of his hand looks really chapped and dry there.......
And in the scene that Bunnie posted that lovely, swoonworthy cap from, his bitten fingernails look *really* painful.
Staring at his hands at all, not at all! I mean; who, me? :confused: (Realizes that came out in far too squeaky a voice and wows to rehearse saying it with much more confidence) :o

Erendis, I fear I am one of the people who subconsciously have already decided that Feisty Fro and pensive, honorable Faramir are on the EE DVD. I'd *better* school myself to wait and see instead!

Oh yes, that reminds me: ainon, you'll get no trouts from me for saying that it was OK that the Gift-giving wasn't in the theatrical FotR. I agree with that. There are just 2 small scenes in the EE DVD of FotR that I *really* disagree that they cut out of the film. Both have great visual beauty and impact, and both are obvious foreshadowings for later events in the film(s): One is Frodo and Sam watching the elves depart from ME. The other is Gandalf and Frodo's little talk as they come down from Charadras.

(Why do my small posts always end up so long?? :rolleyes: at self)

This Ice Storm talk (and pictures - thanks ainon) reminds me of something I meant to comment on in my last post - re Mel's posting of the Blender interview:

In 1997, he had a notable turn as a stoned high schooler in Ang Lee’s The Ice Storm

Er, Mikey wasn't stoned was he? He was just ... er ... in his own little world without the aid of drugs. Surely?

I really MUST see that movie again. I didn't like it the first time I saw it, but it was one of the first movies I saw after LotR specifically becase Elijah was in it, and I didn't have the knowledgable Faculty insights regarding the movie at the time, so another viewing is probably on the cards.

Yes, EE, in the movie Mikey was just spacey without benefit of chemicals. Maybe somehow they picked up that the character was a drug user in the book. *shrug*

Hello to everybody! Hi tata bolder!

I'm very glad to find all of you again! :k
You - and my beloved Non-swoon EW tred from Imladris!!! I missed you so mush after Imladris crash.

Great thanks to ainon - she told me where to find you.

As I can see the discussion here is great as always. Hope to join it again, soon... But first I have to read it all - there so many interesting thoughts (and pics! ;) )

Prim, I'm glad you're *you* again.:)

ainon, that Froshadowing pic from The Good Son is amazing! I didn't even remember that scene, not having watched the film on the Spanish language station recently.:D

Hi, Rikka! You really have been away a while--did you find the Faculty at CofE during our brief stay there?

For those who've read The Ice Storm: was Mikey a drug user in the book? :eek: Somehow I never got that impression from the discussion here. It's so heartwrenching to see those screencaps of a smiling, happy Mikey just before...*sob*

Yes, Goldie, Mikey was considerably less likable in the book. Which makes me really, really grateful for screenwriters taking a bit of license. ;)

Welcome back, Rikka! Good to see you here! :)

People, if you haven't visited the harem today, now's the time to go there!
Elevensies has posted the most *amazing* high-quality TTT screencaps. Each and every one enough to break a poor person's heart. There's this lovely, lovely sad pic of Frodo with tear-filled eyes.... (sigh, sob)

Ahem.......

Honestly; - I am not going to bother everyone by posting several times each day! :o
But I’ve just experienced an unexpected and impromptu TTT research possibility; and I have to write this while I still remember it. I just had a meal with friends I haven’t seen in a while. One of them, who knows I am a Tolkien fan, but has never been interested in LotR herself and hasn't read the book, told me she’d just seen TTT. She went on to practically gush and rave about the film, describing it as amazing, wonderful, unbelivable. She loved it. I told her that fans of the book have noted some obvious differences compared to the film, and that we wonder about the impact of the film on those who haven’t read the book. She didn’t mind answering some questions on that background. So here is our little Q (mine) and A (hers) session:

On what’s going on:

Q: Why does Faramir let the hobbits go?
A: He comes to understand that the Ring is nothing but evil, that it *must* be destroyed.

Q: Who do you see as the main hero, or heros, in LotR?
A: The little guy who carries the Ring is the true hero, the story is mainly about him, isn’t it?

Q: Don’t you think he may be seen as a little, well, - weak - for a “hero”?
A: Well, he gets quite broken down and exhausted, doesn't he, but that’s because of the effect of the Ring.

Q: What about his companion, Sam?
A: Yes, I guess he *is* more visible than in the first film….. I guess he’s more active…?

Q: What do you think the film is all about?
A: Good vs. Evil, ….oh, no, rather: That there’s always hope even when everything looks the darkest.


And then, on to speculation:

Q: Who of the two interested ladies will wed Aragorn in the end?
A: Eowyn!

Q: Will the Ring be destroyed?
A: Yes!!

Q: So what do you think will happen?
A: Even though Gollum is planning something evil at the end of TTT, his good side will win in the end and he’ll help them out. But one of them, probably Sam, will be killed. And it will be very, very scary when they finally show the really bad guy, the worst of them, (Sauron) in person! :eek:
-----------

She’s not planning on reading the book and she absolutely didn’t want me to reveal if her speculations were correct; - she wanted to wait for RotK the movie.

My not-very-scientific conclusions based on this less than statistically significant sample:
Non-readers really do get main points when seeing TTT. If anything, poor Sam needs more credit then he’s getting. His actions in RotK will hopefully earn him that. And on top of that, newbies certainly have no easy guessing what’s going to happen in RotK, so a lot of the stuff there will come as a real surprise.

All of which only goes to show: It sure does seem PJ *is* really getting it right. :cool: :)

not only was Frodo the last Baggins, but Lotho was the last Sackville-Baggins. Who knows whether some might have been left out, though...

Thanks for the research Bunnie. :) I guess from Grey Havens on Bag End became a Gamgee hereditary residence. That's not so bad.


Thankyou Goldenberry; funny how names somehow do affect you (despite Shakespeare's rose and cabbage thing...)

re extended TTT: since I'm not really a fan of the SE FoTR (with the exception of the gift giving just to see Galadriels wonderful smile) I'm unconcerned about the SE for TTT. I'm assuming there will indeed be one: did Jackson ever say there would be one for each film?

edit: Maeglian that research ;) was very interesting.

"But one of them, probably Sam, will be killed." Crumbs I was thinking just this myself after reading the threads in the TTT forum and thinking about "typical" patterns of movies. It seemed to me that double heroes are a bit unusual (unless its a male/female love thing :rolleyes: ) and killing a hero's "friend" off, after the half way mark is quite common. :eek:

Well, since Elevensies pulled the rug out from under me :D and posted the screencaps over at the Harem that I was going to share, I have a few more that I will post here, and then the Harem will just have to come visit us! ;) Here we go:

Edit: Sorry! Images had to be removed due to bandwidth problems.

Originally posted by Prim
"But one of them, probably Sam, will be killed." Crumbs I was thinking just this myself after reading the threads in the TTT forum and thinking about "typical" patterns of movies. It seemed to me that double heroes are a bit unusual (unless its a male/female love thing :rolleyes: ) and killing a hero's "friend" off, after the half way mark is quite common. :eek:
Maeglian, is there any way you could see RotK with her (the first time she sees it, that is)? It just makes me think of Shelob and everything... how long will PJ leave us thinking Frodo's dead??

It's really too bad how many non-canon almost-dead moments there were for various characters in TTT (though there has been one named character who dies in each movie, with Haldir's death at Helm's Deep). I guess there are a lot of characters who almost die (book-canon) in RotK, though...

Mel

It's been two weeks since I've seen TTT, and it'll be at least a few more days before I get a another chance, so I don't feel able to add much to that discussion. Need to at least get it fresh in my mind again. Love reading what everyone has to say, though--gives me a lot to think about/look for next time :) .

With the similarities between the pictures of Bilbo and Frodo writing in the study, I wouldn't be at all surprised if PJ uses that as a "frame"--at least in the extended version, since we don't get that view of Bilbo in the theatrical version. I have to say Bilbo's line about a Baggins "always" living at Bag End struck me as a bit odd, which makes me even more suspicious that it's a set-up for something else. After all, Bilbo's father built the place (mostly with his wife's money, we're told ;) ), so it's not like it's been in the family for numerous generations. (Not trying to spoil anyone's emotion-fest there--just explaining why IMHO the line sounds as if it's been added for some specific reason.)

Greetings to all new and returning folks--and to Prim's old/new name. (Think Vita might be able to do the same thing?)

ainon, we talked about that Froshadowing moment during a Good Son discussion a long time ago, but no one could get a pic of it... Now, if you (or anyone else who has access to a DVD of that movie) could get some pics of Mark waking up and following his aunt--who's wearing a long, white robe--down the stairs, that would be wonderful! Great Mirror of Galadriel Froshadowing--IIRC, the aunt's even barefoot. In the U.S./Canada region there's no DVD version of The Good Son, but if someone outside that area has it... :)

Thanks for those Ice Storm pics, too, ainon. Bunnie, I'll add myself to the list of people wanting to thank your friend for that screencap. It seems like such a l-o-n-g time til August; I've found myself at times while watching TTT thinking, "Oh, that shot will make great screencaps!"--and then remembering how long I'll have to wait. :p Edit: And even more while I was writing! Oh, how lovely :cool: ]

Lutheia, if there were any important/interesting bits from that Gear interview, do you think you could post them here (with the language cleaned up, of course :rolleyes: )? The link was deleted before I saw it. Having seen an issue or two of Gear in the past, I'm not at all surprised that the link got pulled :eek: ! You naughty, naughty girl ;) :p .

------------------

Well, I was really excited about this yesterday, now not so much, but I think it's still a good thing... I "had" to go through some of my Weathertop screencaps for another purpose over the weekend, then obviously decided I hadn't wasted quite enough time :rolleyes: , so I've posted the batch that I'd strung together some months ago to make a "slideshow" of the encounter between Frodo and the WiKi. 120-something of them, divided into seven pages on my website. Series like that take way too much memory to store on ImageMagician, but I have enough space on my website to have a limited number of them posted at the same time.

When I'm viewing the web pages on my hard drive, if I keep my finger on the "down arrow" the pages scroll quickly enough that they look almost like animated gifs (the trick, I've learned, is to put them quite close together). So I was excited, thinking I could share them with everyone that way. But, alas, when I access the pages on the web--from either my home computer or the one at work--they just won't scroll fast enough to get that effect. But they're still there to be looked at and copied, and anyone who has a slideshow feature on their computer can use them that way. (The comments on the webpage are still from the excited time--suppose I'll have to change them a bit.)

The link to that part of my website is below. I have other sets of caps, too, that I could post and can, of course, make more ["Hi, I'm Trudy, and I'm a screencap addict." There's a reason I change my avatar so often!]. So if there are any requests (from FotR only, I'm afraid), let me know. I think I almost have myself convinced that it would be okay to buy DVD's of some of EW's movies that I already have on VHS, so I may be able to do some of those in the future (and Ash Wednesday will be out soon). But I don't have "connections," so won't be able to provide anything from TTT until August. Anyway, here's the link: Friends/Mellon (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id83.htm)

I've been concerned that all of those "near deaths" might lessen the impact of Shelob for the audience. You don't want people sitting there going "Yeah, been there done that. We all know he's not dead this time either."
In the book it was Frodo's lack of response when Sam took the Ring from him that finally convinced him that he was truly dead. Given Frodo's intense reactions to anyone coming near it in the film that should also (hopefully)hold true for the audience as well.
That is an incredibly heartbreaking moment and I hope Jackson hasn't diminished it with all the other near misses we've had.
Not for me of course. If Lij and Sean get it right (and I know they will) it won't matter how many times I've been down that particular road with them, I will be an emotional wreck and after that... on to CU:( :( :(

Rikka! Glad to see you've made it here! Welcome back! :)

Prim - I forgot to mention last night how glad I am that you're you again. You've always been a Prim to me.

tgshaw - hah! nice try, pretending you ain't no angst maven. ;) Very nice and very much appreciated Weathertop pages. Thank you. :k

About fake deaths -- we may scoff, but I think we gotta admit that the Aragorn-falls-over-cliff moment works among quite a few of them newbies. Even in my quiet theatre experiences I've heard murmurs of "No, no, he not dead ... " in half-disbelieving manner, rather than cynicism. All those who do get cynical about movie deaths will be in for a huge shocker when it's Frodo's time though. Frodo's lack of response will be what clues them in, I'm sure.

Between you and me, Bunnie, we might be able to post the whole movie yet! LOL. These were from the site that from now on shall no longer be named. You all wanna see a feisty fellow?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_0notalone.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_1notalone.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_2notalone.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_3notalone.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_4notalone.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_5notalone.jpg

And for Maeglian:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_0tangan.jpg

Frodo's hand. Hmm. To each her own ... :D

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Ash Wednesday

spoilers

A couple of things to rant about first:

Elijah's character Sean Sullivan is very clearly a 21-year-old kid, scared, and seemingly naive and innocent (never mind that he's also killed 3 men in cold blood). It's mentioned at least two or three times that he is 21. There's also mention that he married at 18. What the hey was the problem with all those critics who kept picking on how he was too young to be believable?!

Never seen an Edward Burns movie prior to this one. His camera moves drive me nuts. He likes to do these quick MTV style chopping camera switches. And he'll film scenes from unusual angles, from tops of buildings, or from across the street. Then there'll be long, long takes, where the camera remains stationary. I'd be grumbling, "Will you please close-up on Elijah's face so that I can see him instead of you?" but does Ed Burns listen to me? No. Hmph.

Quick summary of story:

It's Ash Wednesday, 1980. Sean Sullivan is tending bar when he overhears three men plotting to kill his big brother. He realises he has no choice but to kill them before they leave the bar in search of his brother. This he does. We then see him in church, confessing to a priest.

Three years later, Ash Wednesday. Sean was murdered by a hitman. Big brother Francis runs a bar. Folks start coming up to him and telling him that Sean's been spotted around town - either he's back from the dead, or he was never dead to begin with. We follow Francis as he encounters one person after another, all inquiring about Sean. He picks up Sean's widow Grace (who also married young) and brings her to church, and tells her about these terrible Sean rumours. He advices her not to worry about them. Finally he returns home, to an apartment above his bar. Not surprisingly, we find out Sean is indeed alive and well, and now Francis has to get Sean, and Sean's wife and son out of town before folks start realising that Sean's death three years earlier had been faked.

My objective (really! seriously!) Elijah-centric review:

This is his first post-Frodo work, and he's not Frodo. There's nothing in his demeanour to hint that he's anything but a 21-year-old who doesn't really get what kind of trouble he's in. Speaking of which, he pulls that off very well. He is that frustratingly naive kid you just want to smack or hug or both. And I mean that as a compliment because IMO that was what he was supposed to portray. The big age gap between Sean and Francis also means that there's a bit of a 'big brother awe' thing going, which Elijah does well.

There's a long take for a scene between Sean and Francis, in which Sean tells what it's been like for him to be alone and isolated, on the run. His emotions rang very true to me there. It's a long take with a stationary camera. Elijah moves about; Ed Burns is just leaning against the wall, facing camera. So there're moments when Elijah is emoting but his back is to camera. :rolleyes:

Another scene that came out well, also as quite a long take, is when he confronts Francis about what Francis might have been doing with Grace during his 3-year absence. There was a trailer of this scene on-line -- in the trailer it looked like both Ed Burns and Elijah were underacting. Actually, that's the style for pretty much everyone in the whole film.

Elijah swears the f-word a LOT. Along with everyone else. Including the priest. I haven't the faintest clue why.

Elijah and Ed Burns share a number of scenes where they just sit and talk. A few mildly interesting moments there. Problem is, despite Sean's apparent naivety, he *is* someone who had killed 3 men. There's something very strange about a character who's supposed to be aiming for a new start, and exemplifies what is good in the family, but at the same time does not seem to comprehend the consequences of his act of murder, and is apparently ignorant about his family's 'business'. So while Elijah does well in his scenes, and I can imagine Faculty-worthy discussions for some of them, I can't say that his character Sean Sullivan did much for me.


end spoilers

Lookit! The "secret Sam smile". :)

http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/17ending/tttcap_1195.jpg

Ainon -- Whoo-hoo! I can practically turn those caps into a mini-movie if I scroll fast enough! :cool: Awesome. And that fourth one? Just... whoa. Get 'em, baby!

So, do I gather that Maeg is a "hand person" too? Because, fingernails aside, Elijah has beautiful hands. That particular shot doesn't do them justice by a long shot.

Elevensies! The Secret Sam Smile! Awwww... So sweet. *sniff*

That's all I had to say, really. I just love this influx of new pictures! :)

I've only seen one Ed Burns film, "The Brothers McMullen," which I remember liking a lot. I was disappointed "Ash Wednesday" reviewed as poorly as it did.

Great pix, everyone. I don't know how you do it, but keep 'em coming.:)

Yeah, Flourish, I liked The Brothers McMullen a lot too. Unfortunately I think Ed Burns believed the press he started getting - you know how it goes... young upstart makes good film on shoestring budget, it gets rave reviews and lots of showings, upstart begins believing he really is the Next Big Thing and relaxes his standards. He really hasn't had a good film since McMullen. Maybe he can recapture the magic somehow.

Ooh ainon, I just adore that bit. The fourth pic especially just makes me... *woosh* off to the harem :D

Forgot to drop this off last time... here's your avatar, enai! Hope you're able to save it successfully this time. :)

ainon: I am sooo jealous that you have already seen Ash Wednesday.

Elijah swears the f-word a LOT. Along with everyone else. Including the priest. I haven't the faintest clue why.


LOL! I think they call that sort of dialogue "color" or something.

In addition to the "Brothers McMullen," which i liked a lot, too, Burns has written, directed, acted in a tepid film called, "The Sidewalks of New York." I think he thinks he is drama's answer to Woody Allen. :rolleyes: Many of the critics of AW have remarked that Burns overreached in this one. I sure would like to see it, though.

I am even *more* excited to see "Try Seventeen" though. I still can't find a reliable release date for this one. Valentine's Day would be good, though! :)

Maeglian: :k for the wonderful analysis of the Osgiliath scene. I do love the thoughtful way this crowd discusses things.

hello to Rikka!!

That last cap of Ainon's (not the hand ;) ) seems a bit different to the others to me.
Is this the Gollum sequence- its been a while since I've seen the movie . Just checked properties: so yep, it is.
EW/Frodo looks almost repulsed and sad to me. The expression on his face seems more complex than plain anger. And this is not the result of me staring at it for too long! It was my first reaction. For a moment I wondered if it was Frodo attacking Sam because of that hint of something else. But now I suspect that already Ew is trying to show Frodo's begining of Gollum revulsion/sympathy.
Could be wrong though: its a bit early in the morning for me to Think Great Thoughts.

Thanks for the Ash Wednesday summary Ainon. Im *so* impressed. You have in true faculty style managed to discuss a movie in an Elwood centric manner and still remain objective. I really want to see this movie .







SPOILERS



I admit to being a bit disappointed that EW plays a genuinely nice character (murder notwithstanding :rolleyes: ). I had hoped he would do another Homicide like role: cute psychopath, hard to like or hate.


One question though: pm this to me if its too excessively spoilery. If Sean doesn't know what his family's business is, then how does he know how to kill the three men and how does he actually go about it? Its not like its part of college curriculum or anything. Not here anyway!!





end SPOILERS




Ok Sheryl- I know you're very busy but if you are lurking come and say a brief hello so we know you are ok.

OME... I am caught up.... will wonders never cease?

Too bad I don't have anything to say (not that that ever stopped me before :p).

Ariel

Thanks for the "Ash Wednesday" review, ainon!

spoiler
*
*
It sounds strange to me too that so little seemingly is made of the psychological and mental impact of Sean's actually killing 3 people. Doesn't add to the realism since apparently he's not in any way supposed to be evil or a psycho........ :confused: A very interesting read and thorough review though!

*
*
End spoiler

I have only seen one Ed Burns movie; -"She's the one". I liked that one. Not the kind of film that stopped you sleeping at night, but with an interesting story and a good cast. The strange thing is that the tagline for that one really resembles the one for Ash Wednesday, if you disregard the genre: "A romantic comedy about two brothers... and the one thing that came between them.


Ooooh; I love the "secret Sam smile"! :)

From ainon:
Hmm. To each her own ..... Oh, come on! Can’t you leave me to my firm delusion that all I was doing, was pointing out that Frodo holds on to the Ring whenever he's resting or sleeping, and I just incidentally happen to notice how his hands look. :o


Mel, I don’t know if I’ll be able to watch RotK with my friend, she lives in another town. However; I’ll make sure to get her opinion on the film!


About fake deaths and audience opinion on RotK: - I’m actually thinking that people will believe that Frodo is *really* dead in RotK because:

* He won’t react when the Ring is taken (well, he probably won’t. Who knows what PJ has in store?)

* Standard plot development expectations leads people to think that one of them *will* actually die

* And all the fake deaths so far will probably lead people to think; - this time’s it *has* to be real. They can’t be doing the fake death thing one more time!


Some thoughts on “Hope” and “Despair” and the book-to-film plot changes:

It struck me how many times various statements about deep despair, alternatively hope in the middle of utter hopelessness, are made throughout TTT the movie. Here are a few of the times where the word “hope” is actually used:

- “It’s hopeless! Every orc in Mordor’s going to hear this racket!” (Sam)
- “But do not trust to hope, it has forsaken these lands.” (Eomer)
- “She stays because she still has hope.” (Aragorn)
- “Why do you linger here when there is no hope?” (Elrond) –“There *is* still hope.” (Arwen)
- “They say that it is hopeless.” (Haleth) –“This is a good sword, Haleth, son of Hama. There is always hope.” (Aragorn)
- “Whatever luck you’ve lived by, let’s hope it lasts the night.” (Gimli)

I’m pretty certain there are more. And there are so many statements of despair, here are but a few examples that stand out:

- “You’d find more cheer in a graveyard.” (Gimli)
-“That’s it then. We cannot get past that.” (Sam)
- “They cannot win this fight. They are all going to die!” (Legolas)
- “All that was once green and good in this world will be gone. There won't be a Shire.” (Merry)
- “Their numbers are too great. By nightfall we’ll be overrun.” (Gondorian soldier)
- “The fortress is taken. It is over.” (Theoden)
- “I can’t do this, Sam.” (We all know who!!)

I don’t really have time to write as much as I’d like on this, but it struck me how clearly visual and verbal despair grows throughout the film in all the 3 different storylines, interrupted by brief glimpses of hope, and then returning even stronger; - until almost the very end of each storyline. It also occurred to me how the book—to-film changes that LotR book fans have sometimes found difficult to see the purpose of, really serve to underline the “there is still hope, even when things look the absolute darkest” theme. In each storyline in TTT the movie, hope is not really hanging in the balance any more, but has actually been quenched. Then suddenly and in the nick of time, something unexpected happens to reawaken it:

* Helm’s Deep: Almost all the people of Rohan are gathered in the caves, in contradiction to the book. And the odds they are fighting are much worse than in the book. So the despair and the risk of immediate destruction of Rohan is greater, until the last minute appearance of Eomer and his surprisingly large army.

* The Ents have actually refused to help, and Merry and Pippin are being brought away, when Pippin has his bright idea, which leads to pure gambling on his side, which surprisingly pays off.

* Sam and Frodo are being taken to Gondor against their will. Faramir has several times through word and action refused to heed their pleas, and is determined to keep the Ring for Gondor. Then something even worse happens when Frodo almost completely falls under the spell of the Ring and it comes close to being found by the Enemy…. Yet this unexpectedly makes Faramir reconsider and let them go after all.


Seen in this light, Faramir’s sudden and seemingly un-motivated change of heart in Osgiliath makes much more sense to me in terms of the overall message of the film.

Seen in the context of “hope in the face of despair”, and considering the numerous statements of despair that can be found in the spoken dialogue in the film, it also makes a tad more sense that Sam is allowed to repeat the message of hope so many consecutive times in his speech: “But in the end, it’s only a passing thing, this shadow. Even darkness must pass. A new day will come. And when the sun shines it will shine out the clearer.”

(I still don’t like the speech though).

And now that this grew so long, I realize I should probably have posted in the TTT section. Sorry that this last didn’t really have much to do with EJW. :o

Originally posted by Maeglian
Standard plot development expectations leads people to think that one of them *will* actually dieMaybe I'm desperately clutching at straws here, but perhaps PJ has been boosting the idea of "Sam as Hero" so that non-book readers will more readily believe that Frodo is dead and Sam will have to complete the mission?

Heck - I've got to believe something to get me through the next 11 months

I've always assumed that the repeated references to "Hope" are a nod to peole who know what Estel means - but then, I'm really shallow :D

Prim--It would certainly agree with the book for Frodo to already be feeling pity for Gollum when he holds Sting to his throat. IMHO, it's pretty clear in the book that he does it basically to save Sam, who's jumped into more trouble than he expected. Not so clear in the movie, as there's more of a fight with all three of them involved (IIRC--it's been awhile). Do you think there's a change in his expression that gives a tiny hint of what will happen when he's holding Sting to Sam's throat?

The discussion on hope is interesting--on one hand, I've always considered "hope without guarantee" to be one of Tolkien's strongest themes, but OTOH most (not all) of the quotes Maeg gives are movie invention. Maybe the scriptwriters felt the need to be less subtle about it in the movie? The "great stories" discussion--especially the parts of it not used in the movie--is brimming with it. IMHO, some very effective events are replaced with words in Sam's closing speech, with much less than the original effect. The most noticeable one is Sam's return of hope after seeing the white star (that doesn't actually come up until RotK, but the words are put into his speech at the end of TTT, so I don't expect to see the event). I think that's part of what made a lot of the movie feel rushed to me; it might not have the same effect on someone who hasn't read the book--when I hear the words I connect them with several different events in the book, which makes it feel like they've all been shoved together.

Ghyste, as soon as it was "announced" that Shelob et al. would be moved to the third movie there were comments that one reason the change might be good was that you can't expect the general audience to believe that Frodo's really died until we're into the third movie; Elijah's listed on all three cast lists, after all. And I did hear a newbie opinion after FotR that Frodo would get killed before the end. Building up Sam as hero could definitely add to that expectation. And besides Frodo not reacting when the Ring is taken (he'd better not :eek: !), if the movie sticks with the book, Sam will leave him lying there. By this time, I think the bond between them has been established enough that viewers wouldn't think Sam would go off and leave Frodo's body if he weren't sure he was dead.

---------------

Elevensies--Oohh, thanks for posting that secret Sam smile. Now I can add it to the other two. :) :)

And, ainon, thanks for the other pics--Wow! So much expression change during that short moment! ----- Glad you liked the Weathertop pics. The last couple of days, I've been looking at screencaps from the scene where Bilbo goes nuclear, and there are some really interesting expressions that flit by so quickly on Frodo's face that I hadn't noticed them. One of those times when I just gape at the still and think, "OMG! Where did that come from?" I'll try to post just a couple of them here, without getting into the whole scene. Ian H. and Elijah are amazing together in that scene--it must have been quite an experience!

----------------

I sent in my order for Ash Wednesday this afternoon, along with an order for a used copy of Child in the Night (the only used copy I've run into). I can't believe Amazon is still listing it as an available VHS after not being able to get it after months of trying. When I mentioned that to them in my email, the only response I got was that they're always clear that there are some things they may not be able to get hold of :rolleyes: .

I should get Child in the Night before Ash Wednesday is released; since it's a used copy it'll be sent separately. Also ordered a DVD of The Ice Storm for less than $10 (the price definitely helped me make up my mind as to which EW-movie-that-I-already-have-on-VHS to buy first on DVD)! ------- I've really wanted to see Child in the Night, so I'm very much looking forward to having that in my hands after waiting so long :) .

Hey, all! I hate to have to do this, but the friend who so kindly lent me her bandwidth to post those screencaps had some idiot post a link at TORN to her LiveJounal (where she was posting some of her caps), and she has just gotten slammed! :eek: So I'm going to have to go remove them so that I'm not contributing to her bandwidth problems. So sorry! :( I can't do it right now, but in a few hours I'll have to take them down. So, save them now if you haven't already! :p

Elevensies and I are working on a plan where she might be able to post the caps for me, or something... :)

((((((Elenvensies))))))) :)

Where has everybody been? If this were the Harem I would assume everyone was passed out on the floor with all these wonderful screencaps. :D

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
Elevensies and I are working on a plan where she might be able to post the caps for me, or something... :)

If you guys need the space, let me know... we have plenty and no bandwidth restriction.

Ariel

re my vague reference to the common plot set up where one hero, usually "the friend" dies: I mentioned this thought wandered around in my head ,and then stuck, after reading the TTT forum.
I found the reference!!! It was from Ainon- our resident movie freak!!!
I'm sorry I didn't credit you Ainon I just didn't know where to look!!

(Its in the R.I.P thread btw for those interested in ideas in the original)

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/tttcap_0530.jpg

I knew I'd seen that smile somewhere before ;) !

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/CAD2R5TK.jpg

IIRC, there's an even closer match out there, maybe from Forever Young, but I don't have it. The urge to buy more Elwood DVDs is getting stronger all the time... :eek:

The secret Sam smile! Thanks Ele!

About the Frodo-Gollum screencaps:

In the movie the scene is broken into three sequences. First Frodo grabs Gollum and aims Sting (caps 1 - 3). Second sequence (caps 4 & 5) has Frodo saying, "This is Sting. You've seen it before, haven't you? Gollum." We're briefly interrupted by Sam getting himself choked, then we go back to Frodo: "Release him, or I will cut your throat." (cap 5)

I guess we'll just need more screencaps to study the matter further. ;) My imagemagician account is not cooperating with my slow connection tonight though, I'll have to upload those other caps some other time (they're all from that site).

As for the Frodo-Sam encounter ...

http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1129.jpg
http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1132.jpg
http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1134.jpg
http://www.councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1136.jpg

Screencaps from The Council of Elrond (//www.councilofelrond.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=My_eGallery&file=index&do=showgall&gid=171) (yes, the other one)

-----------------

LOL - that's a cute Froshadowing, tg! So happens I'd uploaded these last night so might as well have 'em now. Maeg, I remember you had a nice description for this sequence:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_0coney.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_1coney.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_2coney.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_3coney.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/_4coney.jpg

Posted that Gollum one not so we could appreciate the sight of raw coney bite, but because of Frodo's reaction to it. It's a nice thing to look out for while watching, and I like the fact that the camera angle picks up both Gollum and Frodo's reaction.

------------------------------

Ash Wednesday

Detailed Spoilers - highlight to read


The murder is something of a spontaneous act. The three men head off to the men's room. Sean picks a gun out from under the counter, thinks about it some (very close close-ups of Elijah's face here), then he follows them. Pauses for a while outside the door, then he steps inside and shoots. Shots to the head, mind you. There's a moment of stunned shock, then he runs off to church to confess.

I don't know why Ed Burns glosses over the fact that Sean had murdered in cold blood. Sean's philosophy seems to be that he had had to kill those men in order to save his brother's life, and because of that he had to run away, leaving his wife and his life behind. Now he wants his wife back, because he's missed her so much (at the same time he's also insecure, afraid that she doesn't love him anymore). He figures Francis owes him. He's sometimes insolent when talking to Francis, but whenever he talks back Francis cuts him down, and he backs down. That was a fairly accurate portrayal of brotherly interaction, IMO - right down to the intonation when he tries to lie to big brother (Ed Burns OTOH basically sounds the same in all his scenes: the manly wiseguy). But Sean's behaviour and degree of carelessness isn't consistent with a fellow who's been hiding out for years. And I would have been more convinced if Ed Burns had written it so that Sean is slightly aware of his family's less-than-respectful approach to human life but prefers to deny it, than to have Sean totally unaware. Burns writes in a few lines where Francis is amazed that someone as smart as Sean can't figure out the truth about the family, but those lines just fall flat when it's revealed that Sean really absolutely did not know. Then again, the revelation that Dad and Big Bro were hitmen doesn't seem to shatter Sean too much. Go figure.



End Spoilers

Hmmm.... anyone else wonder why in the stewed rabbits scene, Frodo looks like he's been crying? It's possible that's just what he looks like when he wakes up in the morning (steady, Ariel... take that to the harem...;)) or do you think there is a scene missing in there that might have involved him crying?

Just a thought.

Ariel

amb trots in after Ariel

Hey Ariel heres a pic I took of Elijah at the World Prem of FotR

http://www.geocities.com/amberace/fotrlij.txt

Originally posted by Ariel
Hmmm.... anyone else wonder why in the stewed rabbits scene, Frodo looks like he's been crying? It's possible that's just what he looks like when he wakes up in the morning ([i]steady, Ariel... take that to the harem...;)) or do you think there is a scene missing in there that might have involved him crying?

I wondered about this as well, but in looking closer, it appears to me that the last one is the only one that really looks that way. In fact, he looks like he's starting to tear up in that one, which would probably be appropriate, under the circumstances.

Originally posted by amber
Hey Ariel heres a pic I took of Elijah at the World Prem of FotR


Ariel considers what she would have done to Amber had she had remembered the girl had been THAT close to The Eyes... :eek:

*Sigh* - A LOVELY pic, THANK YOU! Such a sweet guy to be signing autographs like that! The sad thing is, by the time ROTK comes around, we probably won't be able to get ten feet of him! You are a lucky lady!

Ariel goes off to sob in her cornflakes....

:D

Ariel

Luthiea comes flying in after Ariel...

Amber you've met him?! Seen him? Took a picture of him?!

You were at the World Premiere?!

:eek: OMG!!!

You lucky, lucky girl!

Details, please! Did you speak to him?

Originally posted by Ariel
Hmmm.... anyone else wonder why in the stewed rabbits scene, Frodo looks like he's been crying?

Ariel,

I think it's not because of tears - at the beginning.

It seems to me in this scene Frodo feels himself pretty bad - phisically, too! So.. when he just open his yeas... I don't know a proper word in English... well there is some blood in his eyes. This happens - you cood see such an effect in real life... when a person have some illness.. for example high blood pressure...

But later, after Smeagol talks to him about the rabbit and looks so happy.. Well then... there are tears in Frodo's eyes...really... I think that for Frodo this new behabour of Smeagol is a moment of... triumph and joy... He sees that Speagol is back to life - and, for sure, you remember how important that point is for movieFrodo... This is his hope that at the end he could be saved, too ...

Originally posted by Rikka
So.. when he just open his yeas... I don't know a proper word in English... well there is some blood in his eyes. This happens - you cood see such an effect in real life... when a person have some illness.. for example high blood pressure...

Well, yes, - it also could be just from the sunlight. You know blue eyes are far more sensitive to light than brown. ;) - I do think they were trying to make him look poorly - as that scene in the book suggests, and it may be simply that was how they did it - but I seem to recall a SE spoiler about a bit added onto that scene and thought that might have been were it was. I would dearly love to see Sam looking at him and muttering about him being too thin by half for a hobbit! *Sigh* I love that passage.

Ariel

Hi, Rikka! Nice to see you here! :k

Frodo in Rabit Stew scene: He does look sick. Not only his eyes are red, but also the eyelids and the tip of his nose. The rest of his face is so pale, his lips lost almost all the color. He looks like a person with severe cold.

Love that scene, too. Beautifully acted by both Elijah and Andy. The look at Gollum's face is priceless - he is like a cat that brings a dead mouse to his owner, as a gift. So exited of this opportunity to please Frodo, so happy to serve and waiting for praise. And Frodo - utterly shocked for a moment, then realizes that Gollum is trying to please him, and could not hold back his tears. He is both happy for this sincere outburst of Gollum's kindness (as the poor soul could express it), and shocked for the little coneys. Super!

ainon, thanks for the review. When, oh when will there finally be a non-LOTR movie that fully uses EW's acting ability!?

Tg, Prim I too, thought that Frodo sounded somewhat "unconvincing" in his "I'll cut your throat". He would, probably - for Sam, but it is like he is making an effort to say this. There is no hate in his voice, but some reluctance instead, as if he is opposed to the idea but has to do it. And (ainon, thanks for the caps!) - the difference in his facial expressions with the Osgiliath is striking. Emin Muil - Frodo, Osgiliath - not Frodo!

Originally posted by tata bolger
ainon, thanks for the review. When, oh when will there finally be a non-LOTR movie that fully uses EW's acting ability!?
Along with the right film, he also seems to need the right director. I've read reviews from a couple of film critics who've said Ed Burns is a better writer than he is a director and actor (with the implication that he should just write and hand over the other jobs to someone else). IMHO, Elijah's acting is [still] very influenced by the level of direction he gets--he needs someone like PJ who will actually tell him something wasn't good enough and have him try again. With EW's mediocre being at the same level as most other actors' good, I wonder if a lot of directors--possibly including Burns--just don't demand enough from him? IIRC, EW said that he and Ang Lee worked very hard together to get Mikey's characterization right, and that's probably his second best acting job (pre-LotR, he also said it was his most difficult--which is what he needs). As he gets more mature, he may get to a point where he doesn't need that "push" from outside himself, but IMHO he's not quite there yet.

And (ainon, thanks for the caps!) - the difference in his facial expressions with the Osgiliath is striking. Emin Muil - Frodo, Osgiliath - not Frodo!
Wow! Yes! Even in that last cap, he's not quite back to himself yet, is he--although he's getting there? Except for the very first one, those are all shots where there's such a combination of emotions happening all at the same time that I wouldn't even want to try to tease them all apart. As with "They're here," IMHO the ability to do that comes straight out of Elijah's natural acting style. "Merging" all those emotional elements is just too complicated to do consciously--but it's absolutely, absolutely right for Frodo at that moment!

I got my calendar today!!!! Hooray!!!!


That is all. :D :D

Hmmm.... anyone else wonder why in the stewed rabbits scene, Frodo looks like he's been crying?
his eyes are bloodshot from lack of sleep. you usually get that when you can't/don't sleep at night then just when you finally dose off in the wee hours of the morning you have to wake up to get to work/school. or those from the nightshift that have to do errands during the day usually get that. Sam did say that Frodo barely sleeps, so him looking like that at one point during the film fits quite well in the story. (now why is Gollum prancing about in broad daylight is another discussion altogether).

hello Ainon! i'm here, as promised :)

Originally posted by tgshaw

As with "They're here," IMHO the ability to do that comes straight out of Elijah's natural acting style. "Merging" all those emotional elements is just too complicated to do consciously--but it's absolutely, absolutely right for Frodo at that moment!

What I find most incredible, is that the camera is bare inches from his face, to get that closeup. He's staring directly into the lens (a 'barrel shot'); SA isn't there (the audience literally becomes Sam for that moment), and yet he's absolutely in the moment. Movie making is wierd.


"Actors are amazing creatures..."

chattegrise

a long time ago I found you in Imladris-that-was, right around the time of the Naming. finally I have found the Faculty again...

tg: it is so nice to see more Froshadowings!! thank you.

I've been studying (*cough*) those screencaps of Frodo with Sting aimed at Sam and the more I think about the process by which that scene was filmed, the more blown away I am by Elwood's acting there. After all, when he performed that scene, he was looking at a camera, right? Presumably that sequence is all one take? Even with rehearsals, with dialogue being read off camera, etc. that must be one difficult job. Just amazing.

I go along with those who argue that Frodo is bleary-eyed from lack of sleep and fatigue (and perhaps the bright sun) in the coney sequence. I do love that that scene made it into the movie.

Hi, LadyEowynK!!

edit: big hugs to chattegrise for finding us again! Obviously, we think alike!

Originally posted by LadyEowynKenobi
his eyes are bloodshot from lack of sleep.

Ah, very good point... I guess I was wishful thinking for that additional scene! ;) That scene IS my absolute favorite in the film - it is so completely and wonderfully Tolkien - barely a hide nor hair of PJism... :p It proves the man can do it right when he wants to.

Ariel

Originally posted by chattegrise
What I find most incredible, is that the camera is bare inches from his face, to get that closeup. He's staring directly into the lens (a 'barrel shot'); SA isn't there (the audience literally becomes Sam for that moment), and yet he's absolutely in the moment. Movie making is wierd.
I'm wondering if that's the shot where PJ said EW's "hatred" wasn't believable and had him do it again (IIRC, it came up in an interview when PJ commented that EW had more difficulty acting hate because it was so foreign to him)--or whether that's something that could still be coming up in RotK :eek: .

chattegrise :) ! So happy you found us again :) !

Hi, LEK! Only 9 more posts and you can have an avatar :p :cool: !

Originally posted by tgshaw
I'm wondering if that's the shot where PJ said EW's "hatred" wasn't believable and had him do it again (IIRC, it came up in an interview when PJ commented that EW had more difficulty acting hate because it was so foreign to him)--or whether that's something that could still be coming up in RotK
hey yeah, now there's something i've nearly forgotten. but then do remember that it seems to be on one of th earlier interviews of PJ, so it must be scenes taken during the main production, not the re-shoots. the Frodo vs Sam at Osgiliath episode is clearly a re-shoot, you can tell by the wig and the weight loss (comparing to FOTR). what did we think it was from in our earlier discussions? was that the Emyn Muil episode or CU? he was pretty convincing at Emyn Muil (one of my favorite parts in the film), dunno if that needed coaching from PJ.

Hi, LEK! Only 9 more posts and you can have an avatar :p :cool: !
hi Tg! miss you over at the other realm ;) :D. do stop by. i'm getting a pounding on defending book Frodo over there *cough* Ainon isn't helping either *cough* ;)

i planned on gettign a new avatar but the scene where they had Eowyn wielding her sword in the glittering caves isn't in :(. so for the meantime i'm stuck with the old one.

Hi, LEK and Chattegrise! Good to see you here. :)

After seeing TTT I have assumed that PJ's statement aboutf EJW and the "believable hatred" scene *had* to be about the Osgiliath close-up, but I must admit I cannot for the life of me remember when that interview was published. I think it was after the re-shoots? If it wasn't, then PJ's probably talking some RotK scene. By all accounts we are going to see more hatred there...... I'm not really certain how I feel about that, especially after reading that EJW interview that Erendis linked to over in the Faramites' thread........


Like the rest of you, I love the Ithilien stewed rabbit scene.
I also agree that initially Frodo is feeling surprised and touched and pleased by Smeagol's gift and by Semagol's obvious delight in his own accomplishment, but once he starts tearing into the raw meat, Frodo's feelings gets much more mixed. My view is the same as previously..... I read so much into his expression there: As Frodo's tired eyes fill with tears he's feeling some pity, disgust, and horror; - all mixed with gratitude and compassion. The tears are both from pity, from the absurdity of it all, and perhaps not least for recognizing something of himself in this pathetic creature.......


Come to think of it, there's something I've been meaning to ask. Why do you think the Ring chain suddenly is so much longer than before in those Osgiliath scenes? Is there some meaning behind that or is it just a blooper? It seems such an unnecessary error to make, if so; - you'd think if there were more than 1 Ring chain, they'd make them all the same length? :confused:


Have you all seen the video about creating and filming Gollum over at the Official LotR site? It's very interesting and illustrative, and it gives a good view of what EJW went through to film the scene where Gollum saves Frodo in the Marshes. Being totally submerged like that looks quite uncomfortable and cold. Whatever they payed him for the Frodo role, he certainly did earn it! There's also a small interview snippet with EJW in costume.

And Andy Serkis rocks! :cool:


Otherwise, I'm feeling a touch of enduring deep winter blues at the moment, and am having trouble coming up with much to say.

I *am* having a little fun with identifying the "CTJ" though. Once the Hugs Haven had educated me about that one, I realized that jacket is in about every second EJW picture I've ever seen!

Hi, faculty!

Just had to delurk to recommend "Adaptation", the recent release screenwritten by Charlie Kaufmann, who wrote EW's upcoming film with Winslet and Carrey. Fascinating, unpredicatable, moving, insightful...can't wait to see EW working with that kind of a script. In the 6 degrees of separation mode, Tilda Swinton, who plays EW's mother in upcoming "Thumbsucker" (another good book recommendation), is in "Adaptation"...Winslet, of course, got her start with PJ in "Heavenly Creatures"...small world, huh?

I've really enjoyed the discussion of the coneys scene...Maeglian's comments about the mixed emotions Frodo has just then, perhaps dominated by pity and abhorrence at their identity, really moved me. Frodo is touched by the affection with which Gollum presents his "kill", as if a cat brought a mouse to its master...and horrified by his recognition of Gollum's feral debauched state...

The lengthy cover article in Cinefex on Gollum emphasizes the decision to play Gollum as depraved hobbit, rather than the initial move to do slithery lizardy critter. They say that Serkis' acting contributions made that transition possible and believable.

By the way, after Adaptation, we slid in for the last 30 minutes of TTT...wow. This is the 5th time I've seen Sam's voiceover at the end...it really works for me now that I know to expect it, and that after its "distancing" as other faculty members have mentioned, I am comforted to be able to anticipate those lovely moments between Frodo and Sam.

Well, back to lurking. So often, by the time I've had a chance to read through the thread, one of you wonderful, brilliant, insightful faculty buddies has already responded...leaving my only comment to be "what she said!".


Edit: I would love to read more about the upcoming Kaufmann script with EW but I've forgotten the name of it...and couldn't find it in the last few pages. Please help! Eternal Sunshine??? Spotless Mind??? Both???

By the way, Rottentomatoes.com has lengthy interesting info re "Adaptation" in addition to the reviews quoted. It also mentions that small parts are filled by excellent actors (it shows in the film!); consistent with the earlier comment in the thread that even Alist actors like EW will accept roles in a Kaufmann script.

LEK! :k Good to see you, girl. Well, you can get that Eowyn cap from the trailer? Though I have to say I'll miss seeing a lightsabre in her hands!

Originally posted by LadyEowynKenobi
i'm getting a pounding on defending book Frodo over there *cough* Ainon isn't helping either *cough* ;)

LOL! But hey, I never pick on bookFrodo! I love him too! I just happen to prefer to defend movieFrodo because he keeps getting picked on. ;) I'm happy with both Frodos. However, I've come to terms with the fact that my bookFrodo is *my* own and I don't plan to share him. I'm not about to subject *my* Frodo to anyone else's opinions, especially not after seeing what folks can do to Elijah's Frodo! :D Likewise I have a feeling I might not like someone else's Frodo either. But I love Elijah's Frodo, and I consider that a huge joy for me. :)


About PJ's hate direction - it's from the Rolling Stone interview last year, before the reshoots. My guess is that we'll see this in CU. It would be hard for Elijah surely, to have to express such hate for Sean Astin! Other quotes about audience 'hating Frodo for what he does to Sam' (paraphrased) came out around the same time. Hence my theory that PJ's introduced scenes in TTT that will enable the audience to appreciate what's really going on with Frodo - when he's Frodo and when he's acting out of enraged Ring frenzy.

The CHUD.com interview that erendis linked to has been out for a month now. So there're folks who haven't read it? :confused: But I guess that explains why for a while I was talking about one thing while others weren't! :p


Nota, it's always a pleasure when you delurk, so please do that more often! The title is "The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind". I hope it's not just a small part though!

Btw, does the Cinefex article explain how the underwater Dead Marshes scene was done? Was it 'dry for wet'?


-------


No one's posted the Gear Magazine interview here. I've 'cleaned' it up and can post it ... but someone post after me now so that I won't be double-posting! I'll leave a present for that someone.
I've never seen this one before.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/ainon/LoTR/sed.jpg

All I have to do to earn that lovely present is post here? Ainon, you're too good to me.:)

Gear Magazine interview Pt. 1

no title, no interviewer name

Elijah Wood is no longer one of us.

Not that he doesn't want to be. He tries hard to appear like us. He puts on no airs and his rag-tag clothes betray no pretensions -- today, for instance, he's wearing a button-up shirt with Abe Lincoln on the pocket. It's equilibrium he strives for. "I like to chat with people and show that I'm as normal as they are," he says. In public, he glad-hands like a Hollywood lobbyist at a campaign stop. His blue eyes and ready smile disarm preconceptions. He's sweet. Nice. Just one of us everyday folks. But for all of that, he's no longer one of us. When women all over the globe adore you,
when people you've never met know your name and freak out when you enter the room, when you're cashing checks that outpace 99.9 percent of the world populations' annual income and you're just 21 years old -- you've officially checked out of Hotel Normalcy.

Wood's celebrity gives him superpower.

There is a lot of everyday weirdness that comes with celebrity superpower status. Like most people just out of their teens, Wood is still figuring how best to deal with friends, career and attitude. Add in the women, the money, the fame: it complicates things.

But there is an element of uncommon, perhaps even mystical, weirdness too. For you see, most of the civilized world recognizes poor Elijah Wood as a hobbit. A hair-footed little person. A fanciful creature from a non-existent world.

And though Wood would like to deny it, there are parallels: The hobbit is granted great powers that, if wielded improperly, will ruin him and destroy his world. So he decides to undertake a difficult journey and cast away his powers. Wood, meanwhile, has all the power, money and fame Hollywood can grant upon one man, more than enough to create a coke-frenzied, starlet-devouring monster. Yet Wood does his best to keep it real. He drives a regular car. He lives with his mom.

Elijah Wood has the power. And he says --no.

It's early Saturday afternoon and the diminutive (hell, he's tiny) actor and I are sitting at a sidewalk table outside of Lulus, a casual restaurant in West Hollywood. The customers are studiously ignoring Wood -- look, avert eyes, look, avert eyes. Nobody comes up and gushes. Wood is a young, hip actor, not a revered legend-demigod like, say, Pacino, so gushing is out.
Instead, people approach him with pretences. Inside a CD store, one woman asks for a music recommendation. Bumming a cigarette is another common approach: Wood never says no, but first warns that he smokes Cloves. "Oh, that's okay," they'll say. (The day before, a stoner type bummed a Clove and later complained that it made him light-headed. "He looks like he smokes pot anyway," Wood says. "Why would that bother him?")

By all appearances, Elijah Wood is king of the world. The second instalment of The Lord of the Rings trilogy is about to blitzkrieg through the holiday movie season and Wood's fame meter will notch up accordingly. He's gone from being a kid actor (Flipper) to a credible adolescent actor (The Ice Storm) to a newly-minted star. Casting him as Frodo Baggins, J.R.R. Tolkien's tiny hero, is right-on because it reflects Wood's own outsized magnetism. To see Wood in real life is to better understand why he's so damn watch able on screen, so big by being natural and small. The CGI orc hordes may be amazing to watch, but Wood's fear and loathing of the task he must fulfil is even more so. He fills Frodo's furry feet so convincingly; that he's got cred with geek hordes around the world and, somehow, manages to maintain his
appeal to women as well. It's always hard to predict what a person will do with the opportunities that life presents them. Elijah Wood and I are discussing women over eggs at Lulu's and he drops this: "I feel that women aren't as attracted to me as I'd like them to be." In the silence that follows, I watch the smoke from the Indonesian cigarette cradled in his fingers slither up the sleeve of his beat-up corduroy sports jacket. His eyes, blue like the tip of an acetylene torch -- they're that blue -- shift around in surprise at this admission. "I'm oddly insecure when it comes to
women. It's kind of strange. I'm a really confident individual and I have a lot to offer. But when it comes down to it, I break it down and say, 'Ahhhh.' My friends say that's bull****. They're, like, 'There's so many women who'd totally love to be with you.' But for some reason, in social situations, I get really nervous."

A moment passes. I'm just looking at him. Eggs grow cold. "For _____'s sake," I say. "All you have to say is, 'Hi, I'm Elijah Wood."'

"I don't really play that card with women," he says. "I guess I could, but I'm really bad at that. I don't chat women up for that purpose." He allows that, yes, he gets approached, but, "I won't make it about anything other than just hanging out. I'll take the flirtation, but it doesn't really go beyond that." He meets both friends and girls in more "organic, chilled-out" situations, he says.

"A lot of guys judge themselves on how many women they've slept with. That's bull****," he says. "Sexual prowess is not a way to define yourself. Who cares? It's used to establish the pecking order in whatever group you hang out in. It's meaningless.

"I'm a young guy in Hollywood and I'm expected to go out and do the latest 'do' every night and know all of 'them.' People try to define you by that kind of ****. But you can't define me by my job. My job doesn't define me as a person. I define myself."

The day before, Friday afternoon: He's standing there, awkwardly, staring at a window display. I introduce myself and he breaks into an easy smile. We are at a massive independent CD and record store in West Hollywood called Amoeba Music. It's the type of place that employs nerdy music savants who'd fit right in with the bearded Comic Book Guy on The Simpsons. This is Elijah Wood's world, because this is Elijah's not-so-great secret: He's a geek too. You can see it on his happily dazed face as he moves through the islands -- continents! -- of discs, asking the clerks about obscure B-sides from obscure bands.

And it's not a point of contention with Wood. "I'm totally a geek," he says later with a light laugh over burgers and espressos. "I play computer games, collect action figures..." He stops. His shoulders, about as wide in span as Sly Stallone's forearm, rise and fall with the excitement of it all.

How is it that this boyish young man is today's action hero? In the '80s, we watched Rambo shoulder-rocket helicopters out of the sky. In the late'90s, the archetype was a taut Tom Cruise bodysurfing on doomed, exploding helicopters in Mission: Impossible. But with a war with Iraq looming and the perpetual threat of terrorism lurking in the background, our heroes are...
geeks. If we're not watching Wood in The Lord of the Rings, it's the wizard-in-training Harry Potter or not-so-hunky Tobey Maguire in Spiderman.

But no matter how anti-heroic today's movie heroes appear, fiction does not always mirror reality. Consider this: Elijah Wood, a mere boy when his mom moved him to L.A. from Iowa so he could pursue a career in movies, took the lead role in a trilogy with a total budget of $270,000,000. You've got to have a certain stature to pull that off. No matter how hobbit-like your exterior, you need some serious John Wayne-type inner character to carry a franchise. The director of the Rings, Peter Jackson, agrees: "Elijah took on an enormous task. He anchored three films, shot simultaneously, out of sequence. It was the most exhausting shooting schedule I have ever seen an actor undertake."

"It was a bit daunting," says Wood. "But what was most daunting was to leave home and live in a foreign country for a year-and-a-half."

That the year-and-a-half spent filming in New Zealand was a life-altering experience is not so unexpected considering the pressure placed upon him. That he would return so unchanged is perhaps more surprising. Down under, the Rings' cast helped Wood shoulder his burden and, in the process, became Wood's true-life crew. He hangs out with Viggo Mortensen (Strider) and
Dominic Monaghan (Brandybuck), and is in frequent contact with the rest.

But back in L.A., Wood still prefers to chill at the house with friends rather than venture into the thumping house music at nightclubs. At one point in our conversation he goes so far as to say he doesn't like to party, but then retracts it. "Here's the thing," he says. "Of course I like to have a good time. But I hate clichés. Part of what I hate about the 'party' thing is that, as a young actor in Hollywood, it's expected. In New Zealand, we'd
go out to the bars on the weekends. We'd get back from the weekend and go into the office and the other people would say, 'So, did you guys go crazy this weekend? Did you have a ****ing crazy party time?' I was like... [annoyed] 'No.' I hated it because it was expected. It made me reject it all the more."

Gear Magazine interview Pt. 2

Robert Rodriguez, the director of Desperado and Spy Kids, who also directed Wood in The Faculty says, "Elijah is just the antithesis of the ****ed-up Hollywood kid. His mom did a great job." Such a good job, in fact, that she's forced Wood to go out and enjoy his money a little, to just break down and buy something already. He snaps CDs by the batch, but not big-ticket
items. "I have another check coming soon from the next movie," he says. "I saw this Mustang on a dealer's lot, a '66. It was incredible. I went home all excited and told my mom, 'This car's the ****; just so cool with black leather interior with the ponies...' It was relatively cheap too, like ten grand. So I told her about it and she says, 'Get it. Go out and buy it."' He puts on a face like he was stunned by the simplicity of it. He shakes his
head. "But I don't go out and just drop cash. It doesn't come into my head to think that's possible."

So, did he buy it? He laughs. "No."

It's Saturday afternoon at Lulu's. I'm hung over and Elijah is bright and energetic. As we sit drinking coffee, I try for a peek behind the curtain. I want to convince Wood to meet me at a bar tonight. Its not his usual scene, I understand that, but I'm curious to see him around people, fans, liquored-up L.A. women on the make. I'm certain such an environment would dash his claims of shyness, reveal as preposterous the notion that he isn't
hit-on all the time. But he has to pick somebody up from the airport tonight, he says. A friend. "Who?" I ask. Finally it drops: his girlfriend. Franka Potente, star of The Bourne Identity and Run Lola Run. They've been dating for six months and he doesn't want to blather on about it.

"Though this part is weird," Elijah says. "One day we were at a hockey game in Canada and the next day we had our pictures in the paper. Another time we had lunch in Manhattan and it showed up in a magazine the next week. I've never dealt with that before. It's a whole new element in my growing type of
thing. It's weird and awkward and funny at the same time. But it is a violation."

So is Potente "The One," Is Wood thinking of settling down at the ripe old age of 21? "Thirties," he says. "I won't be ready for a long, long time." Hey, tales of celebrity cratering abound in these True Hollywood Stories-days and Wood recognizes that his next moves, in both private life and his career, will really matter. A wrong choice now could mean the difference between following in the path of Mark Hamill rather than Harrison Ford.

Big Hollywood blockbusters can kill a career. But Wood has already mapped his route to safety. "Immediately, I want to do something smaller," he says. "Not so epic. Something different to keep stretching what I do."

I ask Robert Rodriguez, who's been talking with Wood about another role in one of his films, how difficult he believes it will be for Wood to segue from male ingenue roles to more adult roles. "if he gets the right material, Elijah can easily get people to see him differently," says Rodriguez. "He's an internal actor, very strong, and I'd love to see him in a dark role. Maybe as a villain."

He could pull it off too. Wood has, thankfully, some dark spots in there amid his sunny disposition. He tells me, "I always trip when people are like, 'What you do is so easy. You got it made, man, you don't even have to work.' It pisses me off. What do you mean? What I have to do is so ****ing hard. I love it and it's a joy, but the **** I have to deal with is so far beyond what people think. People misinterpret celebrity, misinterpret what
those lives are like. They think everything is handed to you on a silver platter, but it fills your life with a lot more complications than you'd ever imagine."

I press Elijah Wood on the subject. We talk about how he feels the need to be 'on' when he's in public, whether he feels pressured to be a man's man. "What it means to be a man these days is lost," he says, suddenly focused. "We used to have hems like Gregory Peck, heroes like Steve McQueen. They were men, but they were layered, they were sensitive. That idea has been
lost. Being a man's man; hanging out with the guys for football games; competing for sleeps-with-the-most-women titles -- that's all bull****. It has nothing to do with manhood. Too many men stand for being macho and nothing else. They're caricatures of men. Then there are the men who are girl thingies. They're too sensitive and whiny, and they don't stand for anything. There are too many men like that. That's just as bad as the other side." His own goal, he says, is to be his own man, sensitive and strong:
basically the kind of guy who doesn't give a **** what anyone thinks. That's a tall order for anyone in the entertainment business.

We made plans to hook up on Sunday morning, to pick up the new Vice City video game Elijah had pre-ordered. But as I rise from bed, hung over again, my cellular rings. It is Elijah. "I'm sorry, man," he says. Today he sounds hung over, too. "I can't make it. I had plans later in the day, but they've been bumped up." I sit back on the bed, no longer afraid of being late. He
always makes a point to be early to counteract the late-actor cliché?. "No problem," I say. All the publicity, I know, is boring. I ask If he had a good time with Franka last night and he says he did. They hung with friends and crashed at a house in Hollywood.

"Where you headed this morning, then?" I ask.

"Well," he says, laughing. "You won't believe this but..." He tells me, and I laugh too.

So, if you had the superpower and still wanted to be normal, what would you do?

Well, if it was Sunday morning and you were Elijah Wood, you'd be going to Disneyland.

ainon, thanks for posting that Gear interview. Almost seems funny that the language had to be "cleaned up" when the subject matter is all so wholesome--and I mean that in a good way :p .

I thought of Elijah's CD "obsession" the other day when someone on an email list I belong to was talking about soundtracks. He said he owns 2000 soundtrack albums :eek: ! I didn't know there were 2000 soundtracks! And this guy's not rich (as far as I know--most people on the list are teachers, FGS). Kind of makes EW's 1500 CDs pale in comparison.

(And, oh, yes, those pictures from the hockey game--that brings back memories, doesn't it ;) ?)

LEK, I've dropped in at CoE before in defense mode, but after I read your post here I went over there and nosed around, and can't find the thread where bookFrodo is being attacked. :confused: Maybe it's gone into a different topic by now.

ainon, thank you for posting that Gear article. Very interesting. Elijah sounds grounded, self actualized, gentle.

Cinefex said that the Dead Marshes was dry for wet. PJ is a "big fan" of dry for wet, believing that he can better direct his actors. Excellent, lengthy article, with several suggestions of additional scenes: climbing on cliffs with elven rope (fits with SA's comment somewhere about filming a scene in which Frodo catches a box of salt that drops from his pack...)

If anyone is interested, I'll post some quotes from the Cinefex. ? It quickly became scarce; no copies were to be found within 5-6 days of hitting our local newstands, which is very unusual for a special interest, expensive magazine like that. (they ususally hang out on the racks for weeks...) Must have been lovely Gollum on the cover! (the young book store clerk who checked another Barnes & Noble to see if they had it requested that they look for a cover with "that ugly little guy from LotR.")


tgshaw: Reading your signature, re Frodo's light, reminded me of a thought yesterday as my daughter and I watched the end of TTT: as Sam and Frodo hike on toward Mordor, and Frodo turns to Sam (saying "and so was I" with that loving, sweet sincerity), sundappled light fills Frodo's face...both as though sunlight has fallen on his face as the wind lifts treeleaves...and also as a glow from within. That light effect is not repeated in the scene...had to be deliberate. Don't we love many layered visuals!!! Perhaps one of you multitalented screencap wizards can post that shot?

Ainon, thanks for the interview. Very interesting read. :)
I don't know the magazine at all, is it normally seen as serious and reliable? There was some matters commented upon there that EJW otherwise has completely declined to talk about, so one wonders..........


Nota, I'd certainly be very interested in more information from Cinefex. :)


and tg, I *think* LEK may have been referring to Pearl's thread at CoE: "The importance of being Frodo - my passionate plea" which is a very interesting and important discussion.
I could be wrong though :o , so I guess LEK has to confirm this.

Happy birthday, Carleenya!!!:) :)

Maeg tiptoes out of the rather silent lounge. Where is everyone?

I have the new Cinefex but haven't read it yet. I kinda figured the Dead Marshes scene was "dry for wet". The last couple of viewings I studied it and it looked that way to me.

Well, actually, Luthiea did try to bring you that Gear magazine article, but she didn't have time to repost it and I the mean mod removed her link because of the language. :o So she tried!

I don't know for sure, Maeg, but I get the impression that Gear is sort of a lad's magazine - cars, women, electronic toys, that sort of thing.

I love that pic, ainon. I have seen it before, but not that large. (Can you say "desktop wallpaper"? :D )

I'm not supposed to be here ... but couldn't resist stealing time on someone else's computer ... ;)

chattegrise - welcome back! Meant to say that earlier. :k

Nota, yes please share the Cinefex secrets! I'm glad to know it was dry for wet. One reason 'The War' makes me cringe is the amount of work Elijah must have had to do in that water. :o

I've been thinking, any 'glow from within', would have been done by digital grading, right? As illustrated by the Digital Grading docu on the DVD, these things are somewhat subconcious - we don't notice the effect till it's pointed out to us. I'm wondering if there might be many such Frodo 'light' moments that we aren't consciously aware of.

tg, LEK and I were discussing ( :cough: :p ) movieFrodo stuff actually, or if you prefer, PJ and Elijah's interpretation of Frodo. BookFrodo's fine, IMO; it's movieFrodo who's having a rough time. :D Anyway, it's Pearl's 'Importance of Being Frodo' thread.

Yup, I was one of the lucky few who managed to read and save the Gear article from the link Luthiea posted. :D Agree with Maeg about stuff that Elijah's saying, but then there've also been other interviews where he seems to reveal more than he did last year. Say ... think this Robert Rodriguez will be the one to finally give Elijah a juicy villain's role?

Anyway, the reason I sneaked in here was to post something for the Faramites. I typed out a very short excerpt from SciFi magazine. I'm posting it here too for the second paragraph.


Sci Fi magazine Feb 2003

Although there were six weeks of pickup shots this summer, not all of those sequences made the final cut of the film, Osbourne reveals. "We did do some things that didn't work as planned and ended up not in the movie. Some of them I think will end up in the DVD, though, just because they are interesting story points. For instance, we did this great scene with Sean Bean and David Wenham and John Noble, who is their father, and it's really a
scene that takes place just before Boromir rides off to the capture of Elrond. It's a great scene. It's really a pity that we weren't able to find a place for it in the film."

Making the grade without fail are the augmented scenes defining the triangle between Frodo, Sam and Gollum. That relationship is integral to the film, and the improved sequences allowed Jackson to "construct a more satisfying ending to the film," reveals Osbourne.



Happy Birthday, Carly!!

I just saw on TORN that Elijah's not going to be on Conan tonight after all.

LEK, I think you should keep coming here for Frodo discussion. There are some people who aren't allowed on CoE who are pretty into Frodo, you know. :p

Does that "more satisfying ending" refer to Sam's UN speech, or is there actually a better ending out there? And if so, why isn't it in the bloody theatrical release??? :p

Mel

I was just coming in here to say the same thing, mel. How disappointing. I rarely watch Conan O'Brien but I was looking forward to seeing it tonight. Durn it. Well, I hope everything's okay with Elwood.

Rats! No Elijah tonight...and I was all set to stay up to watch him too.

Thanks ainon for the article. I wish I knew who the writer was.

Everybody have a nice weekend! I hope I can hop back in for a visit.

Ainon et al, here are some interesting comments from Cinefex...as you wished!

Cinefex #92 (Gollum on cover)

p. 74 "...For shots of the hobbits using an elven rope to descend a cliff face, Stephen Ingram and his NZFX team supported the actors from an overhead cable rig on an interior soundstage set. Rocks were later composited below."

(perhaps after Sam alludes to the clouds overhead after "nothing dampens your spirits, Sam..." Maybe we'll see that scene where the storm overtakes them, Frodo falls, and is blinded...)

p. 76 ' "I wanted a human actor in charge of the CG character," Jackson explained. "So many animators and shader writers get involved in a CG character. I was worried Gollum would end up not being as centered a character as we needed."
What Jackson proposed was shooting scenes with an actor portraying Gollum present... (shich) would not only encourage interaction and an emotional connection between the characters, it would also provide crucial reference for the lighting and animation. Andy Serkis...had a profound impact on the characterization of Gollum. "Peter became very excited by Andy's performance." Cook remarked "...it was the character vocally, fully formed. From that point on, Peter wanted to take Gollum away from a degenerate amphibian into a degenerate Andy Serkis. This kept Gollum in thematic sympathy with Tolkien, and also helped us keep the character based on a real-world naturalism, rather than simply stating that the Ring turned Gollum into a monster. Andy's take on Gollum was that the Ring had become an addiction."

(the article also mentions that a 5minute scene of Smeagol/Deagol will be in RotK.)

p. 108 (Frodo in Dead Marshes) quote from Richard Taylor: ' "We then suspended our actors from wires, looking down into the cameras, and Brian Van't Hut photographed them in slow motion with fans blowing at them through this beautiful set of hanging weed. Peter is a huge fan of dry-for-wet, because it gives him the ability to direct his actors." '

(I recall SA saying that Elijah was like a cat when he was flung around by the Watcher...I can just picture him suspended over huge fans, waving about in slow motion. Anything for his art!)

(In another section, p. 132, the speed of animation is noted to require thinking not so much in terms of poses as in thoughts and feelings. A dialog track was written for Gollum's interior thoughts!)

p. 140 (Osgiliath) '...animated Fell Beast rises up from the bottom of the frame like a Harrier jump jet. Not a moment too soon, Sam and Faramir leap to Frodo's aid. "We adapted that scene from a moment in the novel when Frodo goes into a strange trance and sees the Nazgul Witch King on his way into Mordor." noted Peter Jackson. "By bringing that into Osgiliath, which is a setting Tolkien refers to obliquely in his nove, we formed a climax for Frodo with Faramir. So we were mucking around with the book a little there, using Tolkien's material in a slightly different way." '

(I KNEW that was the scene melded in here! I KNEW it!)

Also interesting in the above quote is the reference to Faramir leaping to Frodo's aid. Did we see that in the theatrical release? Or is that something else to which to look forward in the extended DVD???

Hope you all enjoy these little quotes! I can't bring screencaps, so am very happy to share this little tidbit with you, whose discussions have brought me such pleasure and added thoughtful insights. Thank you all.

:p

I am so sad Lij won't be on Conan tonight.:(
Hope he's OK. He seemed to be sniffling in pics from the set of ESOTSM the other day.

Hmnn.... Interesting and strangely moving article in Gear. That's one of the most 'real Elijah' articles I've read.

When did that interview take place?

He says in it that he and Franka had been dating for six months. Yet in the summer he said they broke up. They only met in March. Are the two of them learning to be cagey and have been seeing each other on the sly to avoid the ***** paparazzi? Good going, Lij and Franka! It's just a shame he can't have a 'life' without those lower forms of life bothering him. Genuine, respectful professional photograghers are one thing but the paparazzi are without conciences and do invade peoples' privacy shamelessly.

I've seen on one slightly unreliable site that Franka has been spotted with him in NY this week. So who knows? In a way I hope he does have someone special. He deserves it!

So cute too is the way he is all shy meeting girls socially. Who'd have thought it with that improved 'pashima' flirting technique he's been displaying of late.

Great article. Must copy it!

Edit- That Cinefex article is fantastic,too. YES!!!!..The WK scene IS the Nazgul scene!!!!! I think most of us thought so.

Originally posted by Notabluemaia
Also interesting in the above quote is the reference to Faramir leaping to Frodo's aid. Did we see that in the theatrical release? I think we did. Frodo says, They're here, they've come, Faramir looks up and says Nazgul. Shot of Nazgul flying over Os. Frodo does his roll-eyes thing, which catches Faramir's attention. Faramir reaches out and grabs Frodo, and practically throws him against the wall in that open room. Sam aids Frodo later on the roof/parapet.

I guess you could call the Grab "leaping to Frodo's aid." I think of it as PJ's "homage" to the Swoon in HA. *sigh* :(

Nota, lots of thanks for the quotes!

Now at least there is a first-hand info that Osgiliath scene is indeed modeled after the Minas Morgul episode.

Originally posted by erendis

I guess you could call the Grab "leaping to Frodo's aid." I think of it as PJ's "homage" to the Swoon in HA. *sigh* :(

Sigh. Some homage.:rolleyes:

Originally posted by Notabluemaia

Also interesting in the above quote is the reference to Faramir leaping to Frodo's aid. Did we see that in the theatrical release? [/B]
Originally posted by erendis
Faramir reaches out and grabs Frodo, and practically throws him against the wall in that open room.... I guess you could call the Grab "leaping to Frodo's aid."

Yes, erendis, right you are... But not only this moment, from my point of view.

When Nazgul on the Beast appeared before Frodo at the wall... FARAMIR shoot and wounded the Beast - just at the moment when this nasty creature attacked (and I'm afraid - tried to eat!) Frodo! :) And the Beast fly away...

I think this good abnd brave shot could be named as "leaping to Frodo's aid", too!

By the way, today I watched the TTT again.. And in this Osgiliath scene with Nazgul it seemed to me that Sam touched the ring, when he tried to stop Frodo's hand... Did someone notice this, too, or I'm wrong?

ainon,
thank you for posting the Gear interview!It's so interesting!

but now I find out Elijah wasn't on Conan O'Brien after all! I was hoping he might talk about filming Eternal Sunshine. Speaking of which, there was a funny six-degrees-of item over at imdb.com: they had a (joke) poll on how New Line will maintain the LOTR franchise. One of the choices: Charlie Kaufmann writes a screenplay of the Silmarillion...that boggles the mind...

I've only seen TTT once (shocking, I know; blame my so-called real life); amazing imagery, but I'm not altogether happy with the way Frodo's been written for the film. I've been trying to catch up with the comments here - I agree with much of what's been said, both pro and con, but more so with some of the negatives regarding movie Frodo. There's just not enough dialogue for him. They could have squeezed a bit more Frodo time in (especially by cutting out that unnecessary Aragorn-falling-off-a-cliff episode. Sheesh!) A few times I wanted to tell Sam to shut up and let Frodo speak for himself! This has all been said before, I'm sure, but Movie Frodo's in danger of appearing as a sort of mute abused child, whereas in the book he remains most of the time an articulate and mostly self-possessed character even in some fairly extreme moments (e.g. even in Cirith Ungol he chatters on for a bit before getting round to mentioning that the ring's been taken from him). I understand film's a visual medium, "show don't tell," etc. it's unfair to compare book/movie, etc etc...but still...I probably wouldn't care as much if it were a lesser actor in the role. EW saves the movie portrayal for me, by conveying the sense that Frodo HAS more to say, even if he doesn't get to say it - he's somehow able to convey the internal layers and complexity.
I would love to hear EW reading the original Frodo passages in the book, maybe in a radio adaption, after he's spent so much time living the character.

Thanks ainon for that Gear article! Nice to see that comment from Richard Rodriguez about his acting .. someday we'll be hearing that from the likes of Martin Scorsese...c'mon Marty, you're not getting any younger... cast this kid soon!

Cheers everyone! I'll try to pop in more often. This thread is an oasis!

P.S. Hi Rikka! You're in Moscow - how interesting! Are you seeing the movie in a dubbed Russian version, or English with subtitles? I seem to remember that when the Fellowship was released, people in Russia were complaining about the voice of the actor who dubbed Frodo...is it better this year?

Originally posted by Wild Goose
P.S. Hi Rikka! You're in Moscow - how interesting! Are you seeing the movie in a dubbed Russian version, or English with subtitles? I seem to remember that when the Fellowship was released, people in Russia were complaining about the voice of the actor who dubbed Frodo...is it better this year? Hi Wild Goose,

TTT opens in Moscow only since 23/01 .

I watched TTT in December in theater, but for it I had to go to Stockholm (Sweden). It was in English, of course. :)

Since that time I managed to watch it some times at my home video in english... A genesis of my vodeotape? Well, everybody knows that in the eastern part of this world - from East Europe to Hong Kong - video pirats are a strong force. :) So here in Moscow, we, poor russian tolkienists are still have to wait the official opening of the movie, but already are able to bye it on videotape. :) By the way, I think this is a stupid mistake of Warner Brothers - their decision to move the date of the film opening in Russia from 18/12 to 23/01 only helped the vodeopirats to make money.

Last year the dubbing of russian version was really pretty bad. And the biggest problem was the voice of Frodo - childish, hysterical and in addition - with gay intonations (!!!!) As far as I know this year the have changed the actor for Fro dubbing, so Frodo in russian will have another voice (thanks Eru). I spoke with some people who visited already first showings for media - they say this new dubbing actor is better, but his voice anyway doesn't sound simular to EW original voice. This time - he is too "grown up".

Well, I don't care much. I intend to watch TTT only in those Moscow theaters where they show the movie in english.

Hi there!

Hello to Rikka too! :)

Hi to chattegrise too, lots of new folk arriving, more come each day! :D

Hi to Notabluemaia aswell, thanks for that article!

And welcome back to LEK and Wildgoose :D

Thanks ainon for posting the Gear interview in full, like Elevensies said I didn't have time to re-post it sans swear words :( :) I'd never heard of the magazine before as I'd just nabbed the article from a teenage Elijah site. I've been so busy with work and college stuff (got a scary amount of stuff to do :( ) and while I've been lurking I've not got a lot to say at the moment. It is very frustrating, I want to read everything here but I have stuff to do then I come here and before you know it it's too late to get the college work done :D Oh well...

Thanks also ainon, for your review of Ash Wednesday. I wish it would come out over here, even just on video.

If any UK Facultiers are interested Heavenly Creatures is on tomorrow on BBC2 at 11.40pm - I will have to tape it as I will be working but I can't wait to see it again it is a great film :)

x

*De-lurk*

Hi all! Welcome to all the newbies. Greetings to all the old pros.

Just wanted to thank you all for the insight and let you know that even though some of us don't participate in the discussions any longer, we still love to read them. Please keep it up.

MsU

*Lurk*

Originally posted by Hobmom
I am so sad Lij won't be on Conan tonight.:(
Hope he's OK. He seemed to be sniffling in pics from the set of ESOTSM the other day.

Wonder if he knows how many honorary mothers and aunts he has to be concerned about him :D !

I don't really have anything to contribute, but I just realized that I completely missed Carly's birthday :eek: ! So I had to pop in and say--

Hope that you had a great birthday, Carly, and that the next year is a joyful one!

Happy Birthday Carly!!

sorry to be late I've hardly been online these last few days.
Hope your kids were good to you!

That was some very interesting stuff from Cinefex Notabluemaia. I'd been wondering about that Dead marshes shot. Must have been a relief for EW to do it dry: hanging above fans sounds a bit dodgy but has got to be better than repeat shots of your head under water.

They had EW falling into a pool of water for the above ground shot didn't they?? IIRC it was shown in Return to Middle Earth. I wonder how many times he had to be dried off and then do it again? If Jackson can get poor old Andy Serkis to flounder along a frozen mountain stream FOUR TIMES I can't see him giving EW much slack. I know it's tantamount to heresy but I think after watching Return to ME that on at least two occasions it would have been completely appropriate for the actors/extras to tell Jackson to pull his head in.:mad:

They had EW falling into a pool of water for the above ground shot didn't they?
They sure did. *And* for the scene where Gollum drags him out again too; - that is shown in the little info video that is currently featured on the official site. I'd take the opportunity to recommend that again;- it's very interesting. And very telling as to what the actors had to go through to bring us LotR on screen.

Hello all! um, remember me? :o
Have been absent for a whole month, RL sucks. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/mad.gif Moved to a new house and didn't get internet connection set up until yesterday. Am surprised I survived 30+ internet-less days. :rolleyes: :p
Anyway, just spent god-knows-how-long reading through last 16 pages, :eek: and my eyes are falling out. (what an image! :p) http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/tired.gif Brain's not working right now, so just wanna say thank you to Ainon, Blossom and Maeglian for remembering me. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/blush2.gif :) And I missed all you Faculty ladies. :k

Here are something for the Faculty before I crash to bed:
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/gif.gif: http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby3/ttt01.gif

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/gif.gif: http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby4/ttt02.gif


http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/sleep.gif

Deluby, welcome back!! :) :)
It's so good to see you again, and bringing such lovely gif(t)s, too!

I must confess that of the 2, the first one is my favourite. (Bet ainon would probably be of the opposite opinion, though! :D )
I *knew* I was going to like the Ring-caressing scene from the very first spoiler I read about it, and I wasn't mistaken. It has all to do with EJW's acting and the sensuality and emotions conveyed, and very little to do with whether my inner purist thinks that scene should even *be* there. I'm totally silencing my inner purist on this topic.

Wild Goose, it's really nice seeing you here again too! And as to you comment:There's just not enough dialogue for him. (snip) EW saves the movie portrayal for me, by conveying the sense that Frodo HAS more to say, even if he doesn't get to say it - he's somehow able to convey the internal layers and complexity.
I would love to hear EW reading the original Frodo passages in the book, maybe in a radio adaption, after he's spent so much time living the character. I couldn't agree more! I have come to by and large both love and respect TTT movie Frodo as portrayed (except the Osgiliath quibbles of mine that will *not* go away), but I would have loved it if he'd have been given a few more opportunities to speak for himself calmly, low-key and collectedly, using some of the lines he gets to say (or think) in the book.

The idea of him reading some of the passages from the book is simply wonderful. I love EJW's Frodo voice.


Now, I wonder whether Sheryl still looks in on us now and then?
Maeg waves to Sheryl just in case, and hopes that all is well!!

Pops in for a quick word...

Hi Deluby! Nice to see you again. You've had a lot to catch up on there!

Erm I'm with Maegs on that first gif :o Oo-err :D

That's all I'm saying about *that* scene! ;)


Happy Belated Birthday to Carly too!

Runs out realising she's got stuff to do, that really needs doing!

*tackles deluby in welcome*

Welcome Back, Deluby!!! Hope all is well in your new house. Those animations nearly gave me a heart attack! You are a doll!:k


I second Maeg's question about Sheryl. Are you there? Won't you drop in?
And has anyone seen Elve?

Does Sam touch the Ring in Osgiliath? I think he does. I'm rather surprised no one has mentioned this before. Jackson has been so careful that no one but Frodo ever touch it that I rather doubt that it would have been accidental either. It would certainly explain the intensity of Frodo's reaction in that scene. I think (hope) that alot of groundwork was laid down in Osgiliath for what will happen later with Sam and the Ring in Cirith Ungol.
If you haven't read it yet the Review thread over in the Trilogy is
full of wonderful discussions. I think everyone has pretty much moved back over here now but it is well worth a read. :)

Sam touching the Ring in Osgiliath?

Enai, I think the possibility of Sam touching the Ring was mentioned before, but I can't quite remember where. The portrayal of Frodo, and especially in the Osgiliath scene, has been subject to very much discussion in numerous threads on various boards...... Obviously it is and will remain a controversial scene that will lend itself to a lot of interpretation and differing strong opinions. At least until we see where the plot goes from there in RotK........

I personally do not think that Sam touches the Ring, however. It's all such a blur, of course, so it's not easy to be sure. Sam tackles Frodo to get him out of the way of the Wraith, and Frodo's violent reaction IMHO is due to the fact that he's more deeply in the Ring's power than he's ever been before. The Ring is almost completely controlling him, and the way I see it, the Ring lashes out at Sam through Frodo; - angry and seeking revenge for having been twarted at the absolutely last moment from returning to its true master.

I am not sure how much of Frodo's mind is even "there" just then to register what is happening around him and with him. :eek: An attempt by someone to take the Ring would certainly register, though. After all, that was the only thing that could "rouse the dying embers of Frodo's heart and will" in the book, and *that* was as far into the story as Mt. Doom!

Here's a picture from the scene. Sam's hand is very close to the Ring, but he isn't directly touching it here, it seems to me:
http://www.fellin2theblue.com/tttcap_1125.jpg

I linked this from Hobmom's wonderful Frodo album. The link's over in the Harem; - I would really recommend paying it a visit!

(And Hobmom, if you don't want others linking to your album, please let me know and I'll take the link down at once!)


Does Gollum touch the Ring?

I think that *Gollum* manages to touch the Ring, in the "taming" scene in the middle of his fight with Frodo and Sam. There's a moment there where Sam has been knocked aside, and Gollum is lying half over Frodo, scrabbling for the Ring with those long fingers. Frodo is trying to push him away.....
Every time I see that scene it seems to me that one of Gollum's fingers actually touches the Ring. Have anyone else seen this?

It is surprising, if so. As Enai says, the films seem to stress very much that noone actually touches the Ring except Frodo.

And also, though Frodo is quite angry at the end of the taming scene, his anger seems cold, measured and under control to me, and to stem more from the threath to Sam. Wouldn't he react stronger and lose it more if Gollum actually managed to get his hand on the Ring? Or would he still manage to hold even that kind of anger under control there, since it is so "early" in the story and the deteriorating effect of the Ring on his mind seems to really be setting in later in the film?

Maeg, I was watching this Gollum scene v. closely several times and came to the conclusion that Gollum does not touch the Ring. Guess I need to go see the movie again to make sure...:D Yea, right ... looking for an excuse...

Re: Sam touching the ring

Back in December in the Trilogy thread, I talked about how I did think I saw Sam's hand touch the ring in this scene, (if he didn't touch it, he came darn close) and that this was a significant contributor to Frodo's reaction. It occurs just a second or two after the screen cap you posted, Maeg, as Sam's right hand comes up, as if he is trying to pull Frodo's hands away from the ring.

I don't have anything to do screencaps FROM at the moment, so can't find the exact moment and freeze frame it to determine if in fact Sam's hand does touch it, or just comes close. I wish I did. ;) I'll keep looking. :cool:

Narya,

Not surprised to find someone else mentioned this. The conversation was so fast and furious there for awhile it was easy to miss things. Am even less surprised to find that you are the one who brought it up. :D
I cannot be completely certain of course because eveything does happen very fast but I do still think that Sam came in contact with the Ring. Alas circumstances conspired to keep me out of the theater this weekend and this was one of the things I intended to look for even before this subject came up. I do know that it was apparent enough to me to make me take notice. I remember thinking "Now wait a minute. Did he just touch the Ring?"


Spoiler:




Since Sam does eventually have to take the Ring from Frodo after the encounter with Shelob and considering that he wears it during that short period of time





I'm not sure that it would really be out of line in Jackson's scheme of things for him the be the only other person to touch it.

As I said everything happens so quickly that it is very hard to see details in that scene and he may not come into contact with it at all but as Narya said "he came darn close" It sure will be fun looking. ;)

By the way that screen cap makes it painfully clear just how close Frodo was to putting that thing on his finger. :eek:

Originally posted by enaiowen


I'm not sure that it would really be out of line in Jackson's scheme of things for him the be the only other person to touch it.
:

Why shoult it be out of line? In fact I think that in the Osgiliat scene PJ made Sam to touch the ring with a definite intention - he's preparing the base for Sam's temptation by the Ring in the Choices of master Samwise.

I'm quite sure that JP will make Sam to go through very hard and painful temptation - somehow we (and Sam himself) have to realise that he's not able to be a true ringbearer, that this task is too difficult? for him - and that only Frodo is really suit for it.

Originally posted by Rikka
and that only Frodo is really suit for it.

Ah now, but this is why me and TTT Frodo continue to have such issues. :p

I can't see how TTT Frodo is really suited to be Ring-bearer. I can see how the Ring is screwing him up. How the darkness is entering his soul. I can see how the film has portrayed Frodo's role as Ring-bearer as a dark and inescapable destiny, and that is certainly true. But I still miss the greater courage and resolve of Book Frodo. That quiet dogged hobbit-strength which makes him go on and on and on, until his strength gives out. I get glimpses of it in TTT Frodo, but not nearly enough to satisfy me. Whereas Sam's dogged hobbit-strength is never in question, once, during the entire two films so far. (One of my former colleagues read the book last summer and her comment to me was, 'but Sam did far more than Frodo!')

Certainly how PJ handles Sam's moment of Ring-temptation will be interesting ... :p

PJ has also said that both Frodo and Sam are 'extremely brave' in RoTK.

Which may be an encouraging thought. ;)

Just an observation about Sam and Frodo--in all my years of discovering other lovers of LOTR among the people I meet, I've found that despite having the printed pages in our hands to refer to, we never come to a consensus about who is the braver or the stronger or the "true hero" of the book--Frodo, or Sam. My personal observation is that all the LOTR people I have ever been close to, male and female, have identified with Sam and found him to be the true hero without whom Frodo would be [pardon me! I'm quoting here!;) )--toast.:eek:

You can tell where I stand (and have always happily stood) from my mere presence in this thread.:cool:

My point is, there IS no objective reality about Frodo and Sam--there is only our interpretation, our reaction to the very interesting (and in my experience very telling) litmus test that their roles and characters in the book seem to impose on us as readers.

I think we all will have the same kind of response to the films. There is no objective answer, only subjective--and fascinating!--discussion.

(One of my former colleagues read the book last summer and her comment to me was, 'but Sam did far more than Frodo!')

I must admit that when I read the book for the first time last year (post-FotR) I thought Sam did more than Frodo. It was only on subsequent readings (I've read it three times so far) and with the help of discussions on messageboards (anybody remember the: "Ok - Frodo or Sam" thread on CoE - I know TG will remember it :)) that I've changed my mind. I don't necessarily see Frodo as stronger now, but see it as a combined effort.

I am almost positive that during the Taming, Smeagol did touch the ring. I noted it at the time. But it would make sense. After all he did carry it for five hundred years. It wouldn't go against PJ's nobody-but-Frodo-touches-the-ring in the movie.

BTW, I saw Heavenly Creatures last night. Personally I preferred The Fighteners.

Ainon: Going back many many pages, you said that neither FotR or TTT were your number one films. I've been meaning to ask you, out of curiosity what is your favourite film. I'm intrigued.

Welcome to Rikka and Chattegrise. I remember you both from CoE. Glad you found us again.

Happy (very belated) birthday to Carly. Hope it was a good one :)

Originally posted by Flourish
My personal observation is that all the LOTR people I have ever been close to, male and female, have identified with Sam and found him to be the true hero without whom Frodo would be [pardon me! I'm quoting here!;) )--toast.:eek:

Many people, judging from discussions on the net, do seem to support the view that if it wasn't for Sam, Frodo would be toast, therefore Sam is the real hero of LOTR.

Although there are a lot of Frodo-supporters out there too. :p

I've never seen Sam as the main hero, although I love his character and admire his heroism. Frodo has always been the central protagonist of LOTR for me. I've always seen him as the central hero -- a much misunderstood and somewhat elusive hero, certainly, and a hero without many obvious heroic qualities (as in Aragorn's and even Sam's case), but that makes him interesting. :)

But it was Ian Holm's performance in the BBC radio drama of LOTR which truly made Frodo come alive for me ... in a way which he never had before. (Bows to Sir Ian). And it was the BBC radio LOTR which made me fall in love with LOTR all over again and think more deeply about the characters of Frodo and Sam and their different styles of heroism.

Hi Faculty! I'm a faithful lurker and love all your lengthy discussions. Just delurking to put in my two cents on a favorite subject. You know of whom I speak! :)

By Pearl:
Many people, judging from discussions on the net, do seem to support the view that if it wasn't for Sam, Frodo would be toast, therefore Sam is the real hero of LOTR.

It's quite true that Frodo wouldn't have made it without Sam. But IMO if Frodo hadn't been the kind of person to inspire such fierce love and loyalty from his friend, Sam might not have behaved the same way. Love speaks stronger than duty in the end. Otherwise, why risk everything to go back for him at CU?

It is Frodo's strength of will that makes the difference. He shares with Aragorn the ability to inspire those around him to surpass themselves, and IMO that is what ultimately makes him the hero.

But I have to agree with EE---it's a combined effort. They had different but equally important qualities that made the journey possible. While Frodo took on the mental and spiritual duress of the Ring, Sam nurtured and protected him and kept him moving forward, serving as a kind of living armor for Frodo. One simply could not do it without the other.

Back to lurkdom.....:)

Welcome Meryl :D Lovely to see you here.

Otherwise, why risk everything to go back for him at CU?

Though when I read the book I thought Sam was foolish to return to Frodo. Of course it worked out for the best because Frodo wasn't really dead, but he didn't know that at the time, and I was screaming at him to leave Frodo and get on with distroying the ring. I still don't understand what good he could have done returning to a dead Frodo.

Originally posted by Pearl
Certainly how PJ handles Sam's moment of Ring-temptation will be interesting ... :p

... especially if it's consistent with what's happened to the other characters in the previous two movies, and the Ring has a more drastic effect on Sam than it does in the book. ("New Improved ONE RING: Now With Faster-Acting Evil!") :p Who knows: this time next year we might be hearing Sam-fans complaining as loud as Frodo (and Faramir) fans are now. :eek:

Tolkien takes us on the external journey with Frodo and Sam, so it's very easy to see that Frodo would have physically been toast without Sam very early on...he could have been killed at any number of points between Emyn Muil and Mordor. Where Tolkien does not take is us on Frodo's internal journey; we get very little insight into what the Ring is doing to Frodo's mind and spirit. Therefore, it's altogether possible that the Ring itself is a greater threat to the Ring-bearer than all of the physical perils...and Frodo does withstand the Ring, at least until the very end. Sam was definitely strong enough to be Frodo's "living armor," as Meryl so beautifully said, but I suspect that only Frodo was strong enough to be the Ring-bearer. Sam might have been "toasted" a lot sooner than Frodo if he'd had to bear the Ring all along, and not just for a few hours. Sam's heroism is completely undeniable, but I tend to recognize Frodo as the greater hero, if only because the demons that attack from within are so much harder to fight than those you can see and feel and touch.

I believe it's Tolkien's Letter #246 (sorry, I don't have it with me) that goes into great detail about the nature of both Frodo and Sam's heroism.

EE...it's absolutely true that, if Frodo had actually been dead, Sam's going back for him would have accomplished nothing whatsoever. But I don't think Sam was exactly looking at the situation in an analytical way at that point. Also, I think that on some subconsious level, Sam knew that Frodo was not dead, and that this, along with his love for Frodo, of course, was what made Sam turn back. And a damn good thing he did, too!

When I first read LotR, Frodo was *the* hero for me.
I saw the Ring's destructive effect and its increasing evil pressure as representing the chief danger, and Frodo managed to withstand the Ring's crushing effect on his mind for so long. Difficult as the journey was, with all the physical pain and suffering along the way, I think Frodo's ability to keep going despite that inner torment and even when he didn't himself believe that he'd make it, was the "deciding factor" for me.

I didn't pay enough attention to Sam. :o :o Although Frodo wouldn't have gotten as far as he did without Sam's practical, down-to-earth common sense, courage, physical strength and strong devotion, I still considered Frodo to be the true "hero" of the two.

It wasn't till I started discussing the book on the net that I fully came to understand and appreciate how both interpretations (Frodo, or Sam) are equally valid, and both views have merits and can clearly be argued.


However, I do think that the interpretation I would *like* to make my own, is the one Elve explained some time back: Frodo *and* Sam, or rather their joint strength, love and devotion, is the hero of LotR. :cool: :k


I don't know if I'll ever quite get that far though, because it continues to be Frodo's plight and suffering, his almost wordless internal struggle, his quiet determination in the face of hopelessness, the tragedy that is Mt. Doom after he got so far, that still moves me the most. Much as I admire and love Sam, too.

Based on the 2 films we've seen so far, I believe that PJ is going for the "joint hero" status for Frodo and Sam; - presenting them as equally important. That would certainly be my opinion based on the films if it wasn't for that annoying "Pay attention!! Here's what's been happening, and here's what everybody in this film are fighting for!!" speech of Sam's, and Frodo's dejected contribution to the same; AND the "edit-it-all-out" approach to why Faramir suddenly understands Frodo in Osgiliath. I believe both the speech and the editing may be due to New Line rather than PJ, so I'll wait for the EE DVD and RotK before I make up my mind about how I think that PJ/PB/FW really want to present the respective importance, strength and contribution of Frodo and Sam.

I do wonder, though, how much those of us who first got to know LotR through somebody else's interpretation has been impacted by that interpretation. I myself was introduced to LotR through the Bakshi movie. And though much can be said for that one, it certainly doesn't present poor Sam in a favourable light. There's no doubt that Frodo is the hero of the two in Bakshi. Sam is mostly there for comic relief....... I do think Bakshi's Frodo and Sam subconsciously did impact my first reading of LotR back in my early teens. :eek:

I am quite certain those who first met the story through the BBC adaption and the current films, are also influenced by those interpretations.

I once read about a lady who said she wanted the chance to live her life over, just so she could get to read Tolstoj's "War and Peace" for the first time once more. I would almost like to say the same about LotR. It would be *wonderful* to be introduced to the story and the characters by the book itself, without knowing anything about them beforehand.


--------------

Back to another topic for a moment:

Did Gollum manage to touch the Ring in the taming scene?
Well, if he didn't he *did* come darn close!!


http://www.fellin2theblue.com/TTTimages/notalone058.jpg

Based on the 2 films we've seen so far, I believe that PJ is going for the "joint hero" status for Frodo and Sam; - presenting them as equally important.

Well, that is how I've always seen Frodo and Sam, actually. I never thought that one was a superior hero to the other, and I still don't. I empathise with Frodo more and he moves me most, because he loses everything. :(

And you're right, Maeglian, although I first read LOTR in 1983 and didn't hear the BBC LOTR until four years later, Ian Holm's wise and noble Frodo and Bill Nighy's magnificent Sam had a big impact on how I saw the two characters, and that was when I first read the Collected Letters too. :)

I may have initially found Sam rather too good to be entirely believable ... but after reading more and studying more, I came to appreciate Sam's characterisation far more. And now I don't find his love for Frodo unbelievable at all. :)

I was furious with Tolkien for saying that Frodo was 'less interesting' than Sam. :mad: ;) But he makes up for it by saying a lot of other nice stuff about Fro as well. :p

Bakshi Sam ... :rolleyes: Enough said! :mad:

Lovely Frodo/Sam discussion.

I almost hate to interrupt it but I found this link to the first draft of the script for 'Eternal Sunshine..."! Almost a tailor made part for Elijah as Patrick, young, but an actual adult! Very quirky, romantic, semi-sci-fi. Sounds fascinating!

Of course, if you don't like plot spoilers don't read it.

ESOTSM Script- First Draft (http://www.discoverkate.com/movies/eternal-sunshine/eternal-sunshine-script.html)

Grrrrrr... I'm so ANGRY!!! At whom? At the New Line Big Bosses with their stupid 3-hours limit!!!!! After those last moment cuts they made PJ to do, some scenes of TTT became an absolute mess...This is not so obvious when you watch the movie on the big screen - in the theatre you have no time to think and analyze every moment. You are like inside a huge stream that carries you forward on and on... But in the situation when you are able to press stop-back-forward buttons, and to come back to the scene, if you feel there was something strange in it... You are risking to find some things that could make you furious... :(

Today, watching again the Henneth Annun episode, I found there a huge and crazy bug... Well, I think this is not a real bug, but the result of cutting and editing at the last moment...

I was always a bit surprised with the talk between Sam and Frodo in Henneth Annun - when Sam advise Frodo to put the ring on for escaping, and Frodo answers that the Ring is taking him... The whole scene was well done, I love it. But I couldn't understand the reason for their frantic panic (Sam) and depressive, almost paranoid (Frodo) mood... Too panic and too depressive for the current situation... But now it seems to me that originally, before all the cuts this talk had happened not BEFORE, but AFTER the scene of Faramir's temptation with the ring!

Why do I think so? Well, I try to explain.

First, the Frodo-Sam talk takes place in the DIFFERENT room of Henneth Annun. When Faramir comes to wake up Frodo to take him to the Forbidden Pool, the hobbits sleep on blankets in the empty cavern - we see stony walls and no things in it. When Sam and Frodo speak about the ring, they sit in different cavern - there are a lot ob barrels and big boxes in it... Some kind of food warehouse of HA, I suppose... And they are sitting just near those barrels on the stone floor, no any sign of blankets anymore... Then Frodo says: "The Ring is taking me"... At that moment Faramir with his sword breaks in the room, the boys jump up to their feet... And we see that there are no any barrels around anymore!!! We are back in the room where they slept - with stony walls, with blankets on the floor and only two boxes from the left with some food on them... OOOPS!

But if to suggest that originally, this talk about the putting the ring on happens AFTER Frodo's confrontation with the Ring and Faramir and his decision to take the Ring to Gondor, everything becomes logical. And the hard emotional mood of both boys is quite understandable. Sam desperately tries to find some solution how to save his master in this hopeless and dangerous situation - so comes out the stupid advise to put the Ring on. Frodo is shocked and exhausted by his recent fight with the Ring - he'd won it this time but realized once again how powerful the Ring is, how strong is it's influence on him now... So - "I can't put it on...The Ring's taking me... If I put it on." ets.

As I understand, PJ wanted to keep that "barrell scene" in the movie anyway - Sam-Frodo talk is too important for his concept. So may be he simply had to move it because was no other place for it after all the cuts? I couldn't explain in any other way a strange emotional tone of the "barrell scene", and this "different rooms" bug...

Well, what do you think about this crazy theory of mine? J

Originally posted by Pearl
Well, that is how I've always seen Frodo and Sam, actually. I never thought that one was a superior hero to the other, and I still don't. I empathise with Frodo more and he moves me most, because he loses everything. :(
I've always identified more with Frodo, because he's more like me psychologically than Sam is, so it's easier for me to understand him. But as far as who's the "real" hero, that (along with who's the main character, whose story is it, etc., etc.) is one of those 48-years-and-counting questions that IMHO will never be answered because JRRT didn't mean it to have an answer. There's no important act in LotR that's accomplished by one person acting alone, and I really think that's very deep in Tolkien's philosophy. Neither Sam nor Frodo could have made it without the other. If Aragorn hadn't drawn Sauron's attention by challenging him in the palantir, and if the armies of the West hadn't acted as one big decoy, neither of the hobbits would have made it. OTOH, if Frodo and Sam hadn't made it to Mount Doom, Aragorn and everyone else would have really been toast in the battle before the Black Gate.

Not too long ago, I posted something (must have been in the Trilogy forum somewhere :confused: ) on my conjecture about what Sam might really mean when he says something like, "I can't be their Ring-bearer, not without Mr. Frodo." (I'm at work and the boss is too close for me to pull the book out of the drawer right now.) Some people put this down to simple feelings of class inferiority, but I think by that point we can give Sam credit for getting past that--at least when it's important to do so. My theory is that the short time he'd carried the Ring at that point had already shown him clearly that it wasn't his job to be Ring-bearer--that he just wasn't cut out for that part of the task. He had enough "hobbit sense" to see how quickly the Ring was acting on him, and to realize that, in truth, he couldn't be "their" Ring-bearer. Frodo wouldn't have made it without Sam, but Sam wouldn't have made it without Frodo, either--which IMHO is exactly how Tolkien meant it to be. Since I've started looking at it that way, it doesn't irritate me so much when Sam goes back to a "dead" Frodo--IMVHO, deep inside, he knows he couldn't complete the quest without him.

I was furious with Tolkien for saying that Frodo was 'less interesting' than Sam. :mad: ;) But he makes up for it by saying a lot of other nice stuff about Fro as well. :p
He also said that Sam irritated him at times. Like a good parent--and a good creator ;) ?-- IMHO JRRT saw his characters as they really were, each with different strengths and weaknesses.

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Hobmom, I'll have to check out the link when I have time. I didn't know until I was watching the Golden Globes last night that the same screenwriter responsible for ESOTSM not only wrote "Adaptation," but that it's based on an incident in his life. Makes me quite curious to see it. The only work of his I've seen is "Being John Malkovich" which was wonderfully bizarre :D .

Another thing that reminded me of Elijah last night--Meryl Streep won best supporting actress for her part in "Adaptation," and she said she purposely didn't meet the real person she was portraying until after she'd filmed the movie because she didn't want to be influenced by her impressions of her. A parallel there for the people who grouse about Elijah not having read the entire LotR? :p

Rikka, that makes great sense.
That scenes have been shifted, or something has been edited out, has been obvious all along, since the difference in location from one second to the next (Sleeping place vs. barrel store room) can by no means be explained as just a blooper. Your explanation makes very much sense and hadn't occured to me.

Only; - at the end of the Ring temptation scene as it stands in the film, isn't that when a soldier comes rushing in and Faramir decides they'll all leave for Gondor, which they then do? Do you think that last part was shifted from another scene, one originally following the "put the Ring on and escape"?


Meryl, so nice to see you here! I loved that point about Frodo's ability to inspire others to love and loyalty. :)
Won't you continue delurking here now and then? (Said Maeglian, the perpetual harem-lurker...... :rolleyes: )


Hobmom: Thank you!!

Pearl, tg: I appreciate it immensely when you discuss or comment on Tolkien's letters. I've recently read them (as far as Sam and Frodo goes, at least), and I found them profound, thought-provoking, sometimes unexpected and almost ....... intimidating for a letter newbie. Certainly not something to be commented on lightly without giving the contents much thought first. :)

Originally posted by Maeglian

Only; - at the end of the Ring temptation scene as it stands in the film, isn't that when a soldier comes rushing in and Faramir decides they'll all leave for Gondor, which they then do? Do you think that part was shifted from another scene, something originally following the "put the Ring on and escape"?


I suppose that "barrel talk" could be a part of some "next" (cutted) scene - that the hobbits, after their confrontation with Faramir and his decision to take the ring to Gondor, were moved to some other room of HA (may be locked there, and a warehouse is a good place for it) - to wait antill all will be prepared to move to Osgiliath. In this situation I COULD imagine Sam giving his master an advice to put the ring on - to run away from the locked trap.

On Frodo, Sam and Ring-bearing ability:

I never thought that Sam understood, or realized, or even concsiously thought at any point that Frodo is better Ringbearer. (this quote comes right after Sam's vision of "Samwise The Strong") ...In that hour of trial it was the love of his master that helped most to hold him firm; but also deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden, even if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him. The one small garden of a free gardener was all his need and due, not a garden swollen to a realm; his own hands to use, not the hands of others to command. Ok, Sam is not "large enough to command others", but is Frodo? It does not look like a logical conclusion. Maybe Sam's humility did help him not to claim the Ring there, but I think he was really in his heart looking for an excuse to go back for Frodo. Sam did not choose to not be affected by the Ring, he was saved from it by his love. Just as Frodo was later saved by his pity.


Rikka, as I understood from the movie, After the "sword" scene, the rangers and hobbits were supposed to move out of HA immediately. If the barrel scene was originaly somewhere in there, there must have been more. But that would undermine the urgency. Possible, but confusing... confusing...

So many wonderful posts to respond to! I should really get a few more hours into my day!

Originally posted by Maeglian
It would be *wonderful* to be introduced to the story and the characters by the book itself, without knowing anything about them beforehand.
That was how I was introduced to it. My 8th grade English class was made to read The Hobbit and I was so enchanted by Bilbo I had to go on and read the trilogy. I remember how my father smiled knowingly and without a word of support or advice handed me The Fellowship. That was probably the only way I would have read it without a fuss (I was a most contrary youngster ;))

And though my introduction was through the book, I was a Frodo fan from the first reading. I just understood him better and my heart was far more touched by his quiet strength and ultimate tragedy. I liked Sam, how could you not like someone who loved Frodo so deeply?, but Frodo had stolen my heart. You all have wonderful insights on the Frodo – Sam thing… I agree with you 100% Meryl, Maeglian and tg – though you said it before I did, and probably a lot better ;). The reasons you gave mirrored my own, but I must confess to one more reason I was a Frodo fan. My liking of the characters was tied almost directly into the ‘angst quotient’™ each had. On that measure, Frodo scores the highest, you have to admit ;).

Oh, BTW, Gollum does touch the ring… I noted that on my first viewing. He touches it and moves it and I was fairly surprised at that because it did seem like PJ was preventing anyone from touching the ring but Frodo. I supposed that since Gollum had touched it quite often in the past, this was not such a big thing, but I hadn’t considered how Frodo’s anger should have arisen from that contact.

Originally posted by Rikka
Well, what do you think about this crazy theory of mine? J
I think you would be right on the money, Rikka! I never thought about it, but that scene WOULD have made more sense the other way around! All you would need would be a transition scene (though you could have gotten away without it) of Frodo coming back feeling horribly guilty for what he has caused to happen to Gollum, and then the sword point scene. The ‘the ring is taking me, Sam’ scene afterwards would have made a bit more sense! Good call! And I also agree that this scene could have taken place within a ‘holding area’ that they were put into while Faramir’s men prepared to leave. It would work, I tell you! Do you hear us, PJ?!

I also thought that suddenly disappearing barrel was an awfully strange flaw for PJ to have filmed.

Ariel

All of you are so wonderfully eloquent on the subject of Frodo and his special qualities, it's just a pleasure to come here and read about him.:) I like the point about his ability to inspire love--well said! And his suffering..... and even his silence. All those attracted me.

I fell in love with him when I was 12 or 13 and read the books for the first time, and that was far too long ago for me to admit to. I give Sam his due, I think, but it's Frodo I've loved and identified with ever since high school, for all the reasons you've given above. What I've also found very interesting is that in RL I seem to form relationships with "Sam" people much more than "Frodo" people. In fact I don't think I know any other "Frodo" people in RL.... now isn't that odd?:p

I guess that's why I like coming here.:D

Do any of you have a similar RL experience?

What PJ needs is a few of us to 'help' him edit!

Of course New Line wouldn't allow anything good to be left in. But it sure would be fun! For us...not PJ.

What happened to that petition to New Line who is the real 'bad editing' villain here?

As for RL Fros and Sams..Lots more Sams than Frodos.
I guess that emphasizes Frodo's uniqueness. Actually the only person similar to Frodo is Elijah and HE is a very unique individual, too.

Thinking about this though there have been a few Frodo-like teachers I remember..never as beautiful.... but the ones who inspired you by their genuine love of what they were doing and made you want to be a better person.

Otherwise I know many fine people but they are definitely more Sam-like. They would do anything for another person but they just don't have that certain 'Frodo-something'.

Well, there are 2 pics... of 2 different places

1) the "sleeping room"+ Faramir with his sword. This moment does exist in the TTT movie.

2) the "barrell room" - exactly the place of that Sam-Frodo ring talk but the moment itself doesn't exist in the TTT - but obviously is a part of that scene (before the talk, after it? Only Eru and PJ knows) :D

Such fascinating discussions, how can I resist?:D

On Sam and running back to Frodo...

I agree with Eagle's Eyrie that it's totally foolish of Sam to run back to Frodo. Frodo's dead, Sam can't do anything, and running back towards the Orcs is just about the worst idea he could have had. And he knows it!

The Choices of Master Samwise
'I wonder if any song will ever mention it: How Samwise fell in the High Pass and made a wall of bodies round his master. No, no song. Of course not, for the Ring'll be found, and there'll be no more songs. I can't help it. My place is by Mr. Frodo.'

IMHO, Sam knows exactly what he should do - keep going. Leave Frodo's body behind and go on to complete the Quest. The thing is, he can't. In his mind he understands that he shouldn't be doing this - but his heart rules his head, and his emotions won't let him leave Mr. Frodo. It has nothing to do with him realizing that he can't be the Ringbearer, or not understanding that he's most likely going to be killed and doom all of Middle-earth in the process.:p He understands that perfectly - that's why he takes the Ring in the first place, and starts to leave - but his love for and devotion to Frodo overrides all of that, and he 'can't help it' - he's got to go back.

And thank Eru he did...

(Of course, this is just my interpretation after reading the books all of twice.:rolleyes: ;) Everyone else's is perfectly valid. tg (hi tg!!!), interesting theory on the 'I can't be their Ring-bearer' line - I don't think I really understood what you were getting at before.:o I interpreted it more as "I can't do anything without Mr. Frodo - I can't keep going on this horrible quest without him." But of course, just MHO again...)

((((Faculty))))

Hi, Bridget! :)

'I can't be their Ring-bearer, not without Mr Frodo'

tgshaw said: Some people put this down to simple feelings of class inferiority, but I think by that point we can give Sam credit for getting past that--at least when it's important to do so. My theory is that the short time he'd carried the Ring at that point had already shown him clearly that it wasn't his job to be Ring-bearer--that he just wasn't cut out for that part of the task. He had enough "hobbit sense" to see how quickly the Ring was acting on him, and to realize that, in truth, he couldn't be "their" Ring-bearer. Frodo wouldn't have made it without Sam, but Sam wouldn't have made it without Frodo, either--which IMHO is exactly how Tolkien meant it to be.

I've always seen this as an indication of Sam's wisdom. As Bridget said, Sam works from his heart rather than his head. In the book, he says to himself, 'never trust your head, Samwise, it is not the best part of you.' Sam works by instinct. And in this case, his deep instinct to run back and defend Frodo's body, although this seems hopeless and crazy (and in a way selfish -- abandoning Middle-earth to its fate), it does indeed turn out to be the right instinct, as Sam discovers that Frodo is not dead and goes on his mission to save him. And besides, only a cold-hearted person could call it 'selfish' on Sam's part, to run back to his master's 'dead' body, because actually he doesn't have a hope in hell of completing the Quest on his own and flinging the Ring into the fire all by himself, any more than Frodo was able to do it on his own. So ... Frodo needs Sam and Sam needs Frodo. :)

tata said:

Ok, Sam is not "large enough to command others", but is Frodo? It does not look like a logical conclusion. Maybe Sam's humility did help him not to claim the Ring there, but I think he was really in his heart looking for an excuse to go back for Frodo. Sam did not choose to not be affected by the Ring, he was saved from it by his love. Just as Frodo was later saved by his pity.

Now that makes a lot of sense to me. :) How can little Sam Gamgee magically have greater strength than Bilbo or Frodo in giving up the Ring just like that? The Ring would have got to Sam in the end, as it got to everybody, over time, and it would have crushed him. But if Sam is saved from the effects of the Ring by the purity and strength of his love for Frodo, as well as his good plain old hobbit-sense, then that makes perfect sense to me. :) He's on the borders of Mordor, wearing the Ring, but the call of his heart and the strength of his devotion to Frodo, wins out over the siren call of the Ring (which is of course even more powerful as it gets closer to the place where it was made). Good call, tata. :)

Maeglian, looking forward to meeting you at the weekend! :)

This is a great thread. :D

Pearl
I may have initially found Sam rather too good to be entirely believable

and...

Flourish

In fact I don't think I know any other "Frodo" people in RL

Well, this is something I've thought about before, which will probably earn me a trout, but here we go anyway.

I've always thought that neither Sam nor Frodo were very realistic. They were both too-good-to-be-true characters. Sam with his unfailing love and loyality and Frodo with his unfailing bravery. I still love both characters, but as far as the realness of the characters go, I would say I know far more Pippins and Merrys in RL than I do for Frodos and Sams.

(ducks)

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
I've always thought that neither Sam nor Frodo were very realistic. They were both too-good-to-be-true characters. Sam with his unfailing love and loyality and Frodo with his unfailing bravery. I still love both characters, but as far as the realness of the characters go, I would say I know far more Pippins and Merrys in RL than I do for Frodos and Sams.

I shan't trout ya, Eagles' Eyrie. :p Looking forward to meeting you next weekend too ... :)

Well, surely ALL of Tolkien's characters are idealised. Is Arwen particularly realistic? Luthien Tinuviel? Elrond? Celeborn? Aragorn? Not really. :)

They're no more realistic than the Orcs ... they are all archetypal heroes and villains in an ancient mythology, rather than modern characters in modern novels. That's the effect Tolkien was striving for.

And the Hobbits are idealised too. Regarding Pippin, that degree of boyishness and asexual innocence doesn't remotely resemble any 29 year olds I know. Merry and Frodo maybe have some modern characteristics: they are the intellectuals out of the four Hobbits. Perhaps Frodo displays a certain amount of existential angst which makes him rather like a character out of Ibsen (as one Tolkien critic once put it). Sam is a very earthed character: yes, he is extremely idealised, just as Frodo is, but perhaps we can see examples of something approaching Sam-type love in everyday life. :)

The genius of Tolkien is that he makes these archetypal, idealised characters both likable and authentic in their own particular mythological context. I love his archetypal characters because they represent a degree of nobility which we rarely see in real life but which I believe is there somewhere in the universe. This of course ties in with my own Christian beliefs ...

This is fascinating but we may be getting off-topic here, as this is becoming a Book discussion ... my apologies. :)

*ahem*

Don't make me come in here and set ya'll straight on the whole "topic" issue.

;) :D

Hallah takes hold of the thread and gently pulls it back on topic


{{{{{FACULTY}}}}}}

Hi Guys!

I came by to drop off the Eternal Sunshine script, but I see Hobmom's beat me to it. :) I will post a picture from the set, because I don't think I've seen any here yet (they are a couple weeks old now). There is a whole page from a couple of different days (including in character - in which he looks like himself!), but I think geek boy looks particularly good in these:

Link removed.

Okay, I'm supposed to be getting ready for work, but I can't come here in the midst of a Frodo and Sam discussion without spewing forth some of my crazy ideas! :) I don't know if I've mentioned this aspect of my thoughts on it here before (I think maybe I did in the Sam thread a while back), but I'll briefly try to now. I've had a lot of interest/study/training in Eastern cultures, philosophy, and mythology, and as some of you know I work at a school of Chinese medicine (acupuncture), and over the years have gotten to where I see most things in that Chinese/Daoist perspective. So when I think of Frodo and Sam I think of a yin and yang relationship - two sides of the same coin that coexist to form one thing. Sam would be the earthly physical aspect of the relationship - without him simple things like eating and shelter would not have been tended to, and so Frodo would have never made it to Mount Doom. Sam is also the one to keep his feet on the ground and make sure that they keep going and not give into fear and doubt. The Hope Eternal. Frodo, on the other hand, represents the spiritual, mental aspect of the relationship. And it is my opinion that he is the only one who has the strength of spirit to resist the evil of the ring as long as he did without claiming for his own or going insane. I am sure Sam would not have had the mental/spiritual will to do this, just as Frodo didn't have the physical endurance to survive the journey on his own. Then there is the third thing (yes, that recurring triadic relationship). In Daoist thought there is the notion of the two (yin and yang/heaven and earth) meeting to form a third thing that is more powerful and "complete" than of either of the two things alone. So I think of the bond of friendship and love between Frodo and Sam as this third thing, which, as I have mentioned, I feel is the true hero of the story. The love conquers all theme. (I also see the Aragorn/Arwen and Beren/Luthien stories being yet another telling of this type of relationship, and it's more obvious there - the meeting of the eternal and the temporal. It's such a beautiful theme, though really sad as well, and I am one that loves that aspect of the films, even though I am in a very small minority there!)

It's really interesting to me how many themes in Tolkien's work reflect the Eastern mythologies. Many people talk about his Catholic roots and how that influenced his writings, but I really see the strong elements of the Eastern thought in there as well. The first chapter of the Silmarillion blows me away - that is the same story told in many Daoist/Buddhist/Hindu writings (as well as teachings from European cultures and Native Americans). It's that notion of the perennial philosophy - even though cultures evolved in isolation in various areas of the world, they all have a recurring theme in their art and stories that is universal. One aspect of Tolkien's writing that paticularly fascinates me is the notion of "the undying lands" and what that is and why the elves are going there, and why the ringbearers had to go there. I have an esssay floating around in the back of my mind about it all, and hopefully I'll have a chance to spew it out some day. For now, though, oh dear... I have to get ready for work! :eek:

Hugs to everyone! :k

***edit** Eek! sorry Hallah if mine is OT... I wrote it out before I saw your post. The last paragraph is probably stretching it a bit for this thread and I promise to do better next time! :)

On F&S (and I'll try to pull it on topic by saying that I think this aspect of the characters is one PJ specifically chose to emphasize in the movies--and which Elijah's Frodo shows especially well): We don't see F&S's finer qualities until they're called for--in the SE, a few minutes before Frodo takes off with the Ring, he's walking out of a pub and talking to Sam about the latter's "girl problems." Just a couple of guys. (I've got a some screencaps of the moment at A Guy Thing? (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id126.htm).) As Tolkien does say in the books--and as the movies point out over and over (IMHO)--you see a hobbit's core when it's called for, and not necessarily before. So, are there F&S equivalents in RL? I'd say, yes, definitely, but we might not realize it unless or until they're in situations where they need to dig into the inner nobility and love that they have. Then that uneducated woman down the block, or the high-school jock who went to war, can suddenly look a lot different (and so can a couple of hobbit drinking buddies :) , probably even more so in the movies because they start out at a less-developed point).

[BTW, the "Concerning Hobbits" thread in the Green Dragon has come back to life--although it's a bit sluggish with so much discussion of the TTT movie going on elsewhere; the last post is mine, so I'm kinda waiting for someone else to chime in.]

On Eastern thought: At the time of Thomas Merton's death, he was studying the similarities between his own spirituality as a Trappist monk and that of Zen Buddhism. IMHO, it's not so much that Tolkien consciously used elements of Eastern spirituality in his writing (although it's certainly possible) as that the two spiritualities share so much that elements of both can be found there. [And I'm afraid I can't think of a valid way to pull that on topic, but I don't know enough about the idea to start a new thread on it :o .]

Elve-thanks for the on-set picture. Geek boy hardly looks like a geek there! Maybe it takes cold weather to bring out his fashion sense :p ? He's got a great look going there (IMO).

Since mine is still the last post here, I'll edit in the links to a couple of other new pages on my site (still on FotR, since that's all I have, but IMHO there's still a lot to look at there!):

Two Ring-bearers (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id142.htm) has screencaps of the encounter between Frodo and Bilbo in Bilbo's room at Rivendell. Some really interesting reactions from Elijah's Frodo there. For one example, just look at these eyes! Loving cousins, eh?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/1451-85.jpg

And along a different line, thanks to the people who gave the link in the Community Bulletin Board thread, I've posted the old Imadris thread on What Did Frodo Pack? (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id140.htm), for those who remember it fondly (or not :p ).

Good to see you again, Wildgoose!

{{{Luthiea}}} Hope you're doing okay.

Thanks for the 'Eternal' link, Hobmom! Needs Adobe ... dang it, why does it have to be Adobe?

{{{{{{{{{DELUBY}}}}}}}}}}}} Love of my life! :cool: One month without the Net - I know how that feels. Been there. It's painful. :eek: So glad to know you're back with Internet connection. And thank you for the gifs. :k They're beautiful. swoon

{{{Elve}}} - it's wonderful to see you! Thanks for that pic, and for the discussion. I'm ashamed to say I probably don't know as much about Eastern mythology as you do, but yes, what little I know (from my culture and religion) is basically the same. I look forward to reading your essay!

Gladys, Meryl and Bridget - keep delurking! Wonderful thoughts on the boards tonight. {{{Hallah}}} I'll try to keep on-topic! :)

----------------

About Frodo

I didn't like him. Not at first. I read LOTR when I was around 12 -13, but I read 'The Hobbit' first. I adored Bilbo. When I started on LOTR and found out that Bilbo had been upstaged by this young hobbit, I was upset. I mean, I was offended on behalf of Bilbo. I had serious issues with Tolkien then, I really did*. So in all honesty, my motivation to get through the first half of FotR was to get to wherever Bilbo was. :D Then, I got to Weathertop, and suddenly Frodo became this most fascinating character. :)

Originally posted by Ariel
My liking of the characters was tied almost directly into the ‘angst quotient’™ each had. On that measure, Frodo scores the highest, you have to admit .

Oh, Ariel - yes, exactly! I'm glad you said it first because I would have never known how to say it. ;) Frodo's been my benchmark against whom all other characters (movies, TV and books) compare to, and so far, not one has ever come close to Frodo's angst score.

I hasten to add that all the other reasons everyone's given for being a Frodo fan are mine as well! Plus the fact that he is the protagonist, which meant (to me) that it's a given that he's the hero. Something I was surprised to realise as I grew up was that not everyone thinks Frodo is the hero, and that he's not everyone's favourite character. I felt such a huge swell of affection for Peter Jackson when he was quoted pretty much everywhere when FotR came out, saying that Frodo is the hero of 'Lord of the Rings'. Btw, I'll have to respectfully disagree with Maeg about the "joint hero" status for Frodo and Sam in the movies {{{Maeg}}} - it'll happen in Film 3, I'm sure, but I don't see it happening yet. Sam is coming into his own, and the audience will remember his worth in RotK, but alas in movie terms, Sam is still expendable :o Don't trout me! IMVVHO, Sam's in the Han Solo role right now, if you get my meaning. He's sure to come through when the hero's in a fix, but the storyteller can drop him in carbonite anytime for the hero to rescue. Yet another reason I'm eternally grateful that PJ postponed Shelob to Film 3. It's a marvelous twist and cliffhanger for the books, but putting Sam in the role of having to rescue Frodo from such dire straits would have displaced Frodo as movie hero number 1.

* I'm confessing now. Tolkien and I had a very rough relationship. I kept having issues with him, despite the fact that by 'The Two Towers', Frodo was IMH(and biased)O the most wonderful creation any author could have come up with. Like when the events at Mount Doom transpired exactly the way I expected them to. I couldn't believe that he couldn't come up with something better. I was a very fussy kid who'd seen way too many movies and figured out all the typical formulae for storytelling. :rolleyes: So in my case I wonder what my experience would have been like if I had only read LOTR as an adult. Except then I would have missed out on years of knowing Frodo. :)


---------

Gollum touching the Ring

I think he does. It explains the different fight patterns between Gollum & Frodo, and Gollum & Sam. Gollum keeps grabbing for the Ring, Frodo keeps struggling to hold Gollum's hands off. (I know I'm sick, but that bloody scratch on Elijah's knuckle always makes me appreciative of how real they must have tried to make that scene) Frodo & Gollum never actually fight each other. OTOH, Gollum vs Sam is plain dirty wrestling.


-----------

About the barrel scene

It's the same room; different set-up. The Frodo / Sam conversation is clearly from a different timeframe, but my guess is that at the last minute they felt the two scenes needed to exist together, and for whatever reason, they couldn't 'fix' it. It's something they'll be talking about in the DVD commentaries, I'll bet. :)

As for the scene ... IMHO, it's in the right place. It bridges two events for me. Prior to that scene, Frodo had just had to deal with the fact that Gollum is now in Faramir's hands, and he knows it won't be long before Gollum squeals (no pun intended). There's also the horrible guilt he's feeling over Gollum's fate, although I do find it touching that movieFrodo uses only plain trust to get Gollum to come to him (bookFrodo invokes the Precious, IIRC. MovieFrodo also tries to calm Gollum down after the capture, rather than talking over his head to Faramir's men - another thing I found so moving, which also made Gollum's cry of "Master!" so heartwrenching :( The stunned look on Elijah's face just then was perfect) Now before all that, Frodo had Faramir to worry about, but whatever interrogation method Faramir may have used, Frodo was able to keep his mission secret (we know this because Faramir had to resort to weeding the info out of Gollum). During the barrel scene, he's worrying about this bunch of Men now finding out about the Ring after all, and worse, Faramir is brother to that Ringcrazed fellow who could have killed him. So Frodo's time is running out, but he can see absolutely no way out.

At the same time, Sam makes a helpful (and obvious) suggestion: use the Ring and escape these men. IMO Sam doesn't quite understand yet what kind of power the Ring has, or what Frodo is really fighting against. Frodo's very frank revelation about what will happen if he puts the Ring on helps Sam realise a thing or two, combined with him witnessing an actual Ring temptation event ... these nicely tie in with his eventual blurting out the details of their mission: he hopes that Faramir can help Frodo, because the Ring is such a burden to Frodo.

That's my take on it anyway. I mentioned once that the fact that bookFrodo reveals details of the mission was just wrong to me - as Ringbearer he musn't reveal such things to anyone outside the fellowship - even if I highly appreciate the angst that comes with it. ;) So to me, the movie 'saves' Frodo from making such a tactical error, while allowing Sam to say what he does only because he thinks it'll help Frodo.


-----------------

Well, Eyrie, my favourite #1 movie of all time: 'Shawshank Redemption'. :)


edit

tg - thanks for an amazing and brilliant study of the 2 Ring-bearers scene! I bow to you ...

ainon,

Good choice, 'Shawshank Redemption' is certainly one of my favourite films. :)

I'll have to respectfully disagree with Maeg about the "joint hero" status for Frodo and Sam in the movies {{{Maeg}}} - it'll happen in Film 3, I'm sure, but I don't see it happening yet. Sam is coming into his own, and the audience will remember his worth in RotK, but alas in movie terms, Sam is still expendable Don't trout me! IMVVHO, Sam's in the Han Solo role right now, if you get my meaning. He's sure to come through when the hero's in a fix, but the storyteller can drop him in carbonite anytime for the hero to rescue. Yet another reason I'm eternally grateful that PJ postponed Shelob to Film 3. It's a marvelous twist and cliffhanger for the books, but putting Sam in the role of having to rescue Frodo from such dire straits would have displaced Frodo as movie hero number 1.

But ainon, that was precisely my reaction to TTT ... that Frodo had been displaced as movie hero number 1. I'm not saying that's a wrong or a right reaction ... but it was my honest, gut-felt reaction!

And hey, I have no problem about Frodo and Sam sharing joint movie hero honours, they've always been joint heroes to me. It's just that I felt Sam comes over as a stronger character than Frodo in TTT, but we've been over this countless times in the last few weeks, so I'll shut up. Trust me, I'm bored to tears hearing myself whinge about it. :p And I like Elijah as Frodo ... I do, I do, I do! :)

To keep us on-topic, perhaps this hinges on Elijah's portrayal of a more introspective hero whose battle is an internal one ... the battle for his soul. (waaaah).

tgshaw, that pic you posted of Frodo and Bilbo ...'loving cousins' is not MY response to that pic, but my true response is best kept for the Harem, as it is classic Harem material. :D

(((((Faculty))))

What wonderful posts! And I will have almost no time from now till the weekend to even go much online. RL is getting to much in the way of KD time at the moment. :(

Thank you all so much for very thought-provoking posts on mythological themes and archetypes, real-life ordinary people turned heros by circumstances, and spirituality in Tolkien's works.
Elve, I hope you get to write about the Undying Lands! I am absolutely certain it would be rewarding and inspiring to read that, just as your post above!! :)

I was going to comment about the joint hero status; - but Pearl just did and I don't think there's much I can add. My previous comment was written with the worries voiced about Sam displacing Frodo as "hero" in mind, rather than the other way around. I now believe at the end of TTT they actually are presented as equally important to the quest, even if that was *not* my immediate gut feeling...... I had to take time to get to really understand and love TTT movieFrodo, as well as rationalize those Osgiliath scenes.

Pearl; I am looking very much forward to meeting you, and the others, this weekend! :) And may I second you in your thoughts and comment about the "loving cousins" pic? :o :o :o


Edit: Tg; - I'll read the "Cousins" as well as the "What did he pack" thread as soon as may be! I know the first will be insightful and interesting, and the second will bring back fond memories of my initial daze upon seeing FotR and falling in love with it, and going on to devour absolutely everything I could find to read about it and EJW! :)

Bye to all for now!

Originally posted by Elvellon
It's such a beautiful theme, though really sad as well, and I am one that loves that aspect of the films, even though I am in a very small minority there!
Since when? The angst maven LOVES sad... anguished, tortured, etc... Any complaints I might have had had NOTHING to do with that aspect.

Originally posted by ainon
Then, I got to Weathertop, and suddenly Frodo became this most fascinating character. :)
Yep, that’s the point when he got interesting to me too… although it wasn’t until the Pass and the description of his face in the light of the phial that I fell in love with him.

Originally posted by Pearl
But ainon, that was precisely my reaction to TTT ... that Frodo had been displaced as movie hero number 1. I'm not saying that's a wrong or a right reaction ... but it was my honest, gut-felt reaction!
And mine as well. That was probably why I was so irritated the first time I saw TTT. I felt like it was one of those ‘Sam could have done it alone’ fanfics put to screen and the whole world would be imprinted with that, to my mind, incorrect view of the story. I personally feel Frodo is the main hero, but can buy the joint hero theory because I totally agree that Frodo would never have made it alone. But Frodo had something that Sam didn't - a will that was strong enough to see and hold onto the intangible goal throughout his suffering. And that's probably why that line in Osgiliath bugs me so! Frodo always knew what he was holding onto! Sam's purpose was right in front of him - his master - his was a noble and great purpose, but it was much easier to 'see' than Frodo's.

Originally posted by Pearl
...'loving cousins' is not MY response to that pic, but my true response is best kept for the Harem, as it is classic Harem material. :D
Well! I have been looking for pictures of a ‘darker’ Fro for some pictures I want to draw… ;) – it’s not the ‘come hither’ look I have been searching for, but it will do. :D

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb
IMHO, Sam knows exactly what he should do - keep going. Leave Frodo's body behind and go on to complete the Quest. The thing is, he can't. In his mind he understands that he shouldn't be doing this - but his heart rules his head, and his emotions won't let him leave Mr. Frodo. It has nothing to do with him realizing that he can't be the Ringbearer, or not understanding that he's most likely going to be killed and doom all of Middle-earth in the process.:p He understands that perfectly - that's why he takes the Ring in the first place, and starts to leave - but his love for and devotion to Frodo overrides all of that, and he 'can't help it' - he's got to go back.
This is exactly what I thought when I read it. The other interpretations were quite interesting, but THIS was what I thought initially. He doesn’t even run through all those other judgments and logical arguments, he follows what his heart tells him to do.

Ariel

This thread is for discussion on Elijah Wood. I gave a very nice reminder of that this morning, but the posts have continued along in much the same direction as they had been going prior to my post.

There are more than enough places already where in-depth Frodo discussions can take place without de-railing the thread.

Frodo's Harem (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=406)

Central Hobbit Appreciation Society (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=705)

Frodo in TTT (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1761)

Concerning Hobbits (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1364)

Sorry, Hallah. :o

I just like talking about Book Frodo so much, that's my trouble. :p

Thanks for the reminder. :)

Sorry, Hallah -

This thread has a history of far ranging topics - but we always seem to come back to the subject at hand ;). We are just used to being allowed to stray a bit as long as we don't take it too far afield (which we don't tend to). If you would like, I am sure you could move the offending posts to the appropriate threads without upsetting anyone.

Ariel

Originally posted by Ariel
And that's probably why that line in Osgiliath bugs me so! Frodo always knew what he was holding onto! Sam's purpose was right in front of him - his master - his was a noble and great purpose, but it was much easier to 'see' than Frodo's.
He [Frodo] knows, yes, but I've felt that line in the movie to be a rhetorical question in a way, really asking Sam to, "Tell me again why we're doing this--I need to hear it from somewhere outside my own head." As if he's looking for support rather than for an answer he doesn't know--which IMHO fits in especially with younger movie-Frodo. I've thought that since the first time I saw the scene, but I don't know if it's just my own rationalization or if there's actually something about the way the line is delivered that made me think that way. It's been way too long since I've seen the movie--will have to remedy that situation soon and see if I can figure out where my reaction comes from.


Well! I have been looking for pictures of a ‘darker’ Fro for some pictures I want to draw… ;) – it’s not the ‘come hither’ look I have been searching for, but it will do. :D
Yoicks :eek: ! I hope it's not a "come hither" look--or I'd have to take down my note on the webpage about being able to tell what's going on in the scene just through EW's acting, without him speaking a word of dialogue. "Come hither," ain't exactly what he's thinking right there :eek: .

Not as in "Come hider, love, to me?" :eek: :eek: :eek:

eh? :confused: :p

Yoicks! I hope it's not a "come hither" look--or I'd have to take down my note on the webpage about being able to tell what's going on in the scene just through EW's acting, without him speaking a word of dialogue. "Come hither," ain't exactly what he's thinking right there.

Oh, tgshaw, I don't think we mean that Film Frodo is actually giving anybody a 'come hither' look ... since the only other person in the room is Uncle Bilbo! :eek: :p

But taken out of context, placed in isolation, I personally think his expression in that pic is extremely 'come-hitherish' ... I'm not sure if that helps you or not!

In the context of the film, I just see an innocent lad about to put on a special gift from his uncle. And yes, you can see open trust in EJW's eyes. :)

Originally posted by Pearl
In the context of the film, I just see an innocent lad about to put on a special gift from his uncle. And yes, you can see open trust in EJW's eyes. :)
We really do see it quite differently, then, Pearl :) ! What I see is, "Ya wanna what one last time, old guy? I don't think so!" :eek: :p

(That's why I said "Yoicks!" to a "come hither" look--IMHO, it's more along the lines of "Don't even think about coming a step closer." Here's the link again, in case you want to see my reasoning: Two Ring-bearers (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id142.htm))

No, no, you're right and I'm wrong ... I had misjudged the precise moment, you see, I thought Fro was still unbuttoning, at the trusting stage, but now I realise he's at the 'oops ... you wanna WHAT one last time, old guy, I DON'T think so' stage. Yes, I can see that too.

Man, those are freakin' wonderful screencaps ... :p

Great succession of images! :)

Yes, tg, wonderful analysis!!! Wonderful pictures!


Hugs (((Hallah)))! :k
Yes, the thread has gotten off-topic somewhat, and you are absolutely right. But it was such a nice and interesting discussion, people got caught up in it. Isn't it a shame!

Oh my, I've been following this discussion about Frodo and Sam with interest, but those screencaps of the Two Ring Bearers, tg, forces me out of lurkdom!! Whoah!! Love your analysis of the scene. Elwood is just terrific there.

waves at Elve

Okay, so we have to get back to Elijah - now there's a subject I can yap about on a daily basis! :)

Sorry about posting a link to a forbidden site - I uploaded some picts to my server so I will repost. Tg, I agree, he looks very handsome with that scarf and coat. I was wondering if this is one of his character's outfits, or something from his own wardrobe.

http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/elijah/elijah-sunshine-set-001.jpg

and here are links to a couple more. The second one is from a scene in the film and that is Jim Carrey in the car.

cold ears (http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/elijah/elijah-sunshine-set-002.jpg)

elijah and jim (http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/elijah/elijah-sunshine-set-003.jpg)

Has anyone else been reading the script? I like it so far, though I haven't gotten far enough to make any valuable comments. Elijah plays the role of Patrick, and I noticed at IMDB that Tom Wilkinson plays the role of the doctor (remember Tom was also in Chain of Fools).

Something else you guys may be interested in - a friend of mine just converted the audio tape of Elijah's reading of "The Most Beautiful Gift" into mp3 format. If anyone wants these files, please PM me. This is a children's story that he did around the time of the Ice Storm, and he does a great job. In my opinion, the story isn't the best in the world (it drags in places, and doesn't have as satisfying an ending as I'd like), but Elijah's voice is very nice to listen to.

And Ariel, it's good to know someone else likes the Arwen stuff. I love it - and I think Liv did an excellent job, especially in the scene with Elrond. The angst factor is indeed very high there. (and I haven't forgotten about the Leno clips - I genuinely intend to get those made this weekend and will PM you the URL - I have no idea where time is going these days! :( ).

Hello lovely Vita! You know, it just occured to me that the S-B in your name probably refers to Sackville-Baggins. Doh! I'm a bit slow. :p

Edit: Elve posted while I was writing--so glad you reposted that pic (I was hoping you would :p ). From looking at the pic from a scene, I'd say Elijah's character is more at home in "geeky" clothes (in a good way, of course :) ). And, good heavens, I would never have identified Jim Carey without being told!

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Thought I'd let people know I got a PM from Sheryl (in response to one I sent a couple of weeks ago) and, assuming she's still behaving herself ;) , she's not lurking here. She said reading the Faculty makes it too tempting to start posting again before her "sabbatical's" over. Her kitchen is still torn up :( , and she's been getting a lot of writing done :cool: .

:rolleyes: I should be doing the same thing, but I don't have the willpower to even make the decision. So--I'm glad some have enjoyed the latest screencap page :) , as it helps me feel I'm doing something worthwhile :rolleyes: ! (Believe it or not, I even get an occasional visitor at my website who's not from KD :p .)

So glad that Deluby (hi!), ainon, Elevensies, and whoever I'm not remembering at the moment, have such great things to share from TTT, as I'm rather fixated on FotR (until next August, probably). But I think I could study Elwood's acting in that movie alone for a very long time. I was reminded the other day of a discussion we had a l-o-n-g time ago about how he seems to always be in character, with the proper emotions, even when caught in a still--more so than most of the other LotR actors--and about how that could be at least partially due to his natural acting (in that he doesn't have to "think" every move as a method actor might), [i]and microexpressions (in that he doesn't "jump" from one emotion to the next, but transitions from one to the other as you'd expect someone to do in real life).

The reminder came--believe it or not--when I'd popped in the DVD purposely to get a pic of the "thing" he wraps in a cloth to take with him when he's leaving Bag End, as I wanted to have a shot of it to use as a "visual aid" for the "What Did Frodo Pack?" thread. I was doing a bit of step-by-step viewing, as I couldn't remember exactly where in the packing process it was shown, and--OMG!--some of Elijah's acting just in those "unimportant" little shots of him getting ready to leave is amazing... perfect... I did make screencaps of a few of them, of course :rolleyes: .

I can't believe how much I'm looking forward to getting that used copy of Child in the Night (VHS, so no screencaps from me *sigh*), and then the DVDs of Ash Wednesday and The Ice Storm. Then I'll have to wait awhile til I can afford some of the other movies on DVD [When I get Child in the Night, I'll have all of Elijah's movies on VHS except for his two one-liners, and Paradise and B&W which I didn't buy because I didn't think I'd watch them enough to make it worthwhile--I occasionally think about getting them anyway, just to have a complete set. And if anyone had told me five years ago I'd say that about any actor's movies I would have thought they were nuts. -- Added thought: well, I also don't have Chain of Fools :mad: .]

Originally posted by Pearl
But ainon, that was precisely my reaction to TTT ... that Frodo had been displaced as movie hero number 1. I'm not saying that's a wrong or a right reaction ... but it was my honest, gut-felt reaction!

{{{Pearl}}} I'm not trying to change your mind. :k I will admit to still feeling somewhat bewildered though by how Elijah's delivery of that one line is interpreted so differently by different people - all of whom are Frodo fans!

Reminds me of the discussion we had in old Faculty, about the Rivendell Frodo & Sam scene - how it was possible to see that Frodo was initially somewhat reluctant about giving up the Ring before returning home; then we get the SE DVD commentaries and we're told that in that scene Elijah had been playing it straight: Frodo really, truly, honestly wanted to be rid of the Ring and go home! :p

Btw, Ariel, I never considered what transpires in fanfics (I've read only a very select wonderfully Frodoangsty few ;) ). A ‘Sam could have done it alone’ fanfic doing that to Frodo would have made me flip so we're on the same page on that!

Anyway, tg, my interpretation of that scene is similar to yours except the age thing. That never mattered much to me. :p In my warped opinion, since Elijah's Frodo hadn't been carrying on through TTT in a state of perpetual angst, I knew it was time for all the angst in the world to be dumped right on his head right there and then. :D I think we can all agree that Elijah didn't disappoint there, did he? ;)



Thanks Elve, for the pics. And now you keep posting! I hope to read that script when I can download the new version of Adobe.

elijah and jim (http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/elijah/elijah-sunshine-set-003.jpg)

That is Jim Carrey?! :eek:


tg:
... some of Elijah's acting just in those "unimportant" little shots of him getting read to leave is amazing... perfect... I did make screencaps of a few of them, of course

Which we'll see, of course? :) You're definitely doing many worthwhile things and I'm not just talking about your screencapping skills. I just read the 'Concerning Hobbits' thread - incredible posts over there!

Faculty synchronicity with tg talking about the Elijah movie collection - I snagged a copy of 'The War' DVD today (emphasis on the word 'copy'). I don't think I can recommend the original DVD version for anything other than collecting and screencapping - haven't rewatched the film yet but the pic quality is excellent, even for what I have. The DVD was made after Elijah had starred in 'Deep Impact'. The film makers' notes consist of info about the tree. Yes. The tree. They had Elijah Wood starring in their film, and they talk about the tree. :rolleyes:

tg -- have you given any thought to my PMed question to you, btw?

I, too, think that whoever is dressing Elwood for this film (and I'm pretty sure he's in costume for his role with the scarf, etc., Elve) is doing a good job. I think I'm going to pass on reading the script, though, given all that I've heard about the way scripts evolve once shooting begins.

I would NEVER have recognized Jim Carrey in that picture! :eek:

Has anyone heard ANYTHING more about the release of "Try Seventeen"? The only thing I have seen that remotely resembles a firm release date is for TODAY!!! in the Philippines.....:rolleyes:

Am looking forward to Ash Wednesday, the Film, not the religious observance. (Although the release date for this film *is* rather close to the actual Ash Wednesday.

Since I haven't seen Child in the Night yet, I'll be looking forward to your review tg.

Yup, Elve: my full name (if it weren't so many characters) would be Vita Sackville-Baggins. When I chose it (oh so many months ago) it was because I had only just realized (talk about d'oh--I read these books thirty years ago!) the joke that Tolkien was playing with the S-B's name: Vita Sackville-West was a prominent poet and novelist, whose work Tolkien surely knew. Her reputation and affiliation with the Bloomsbury group of artists and scholars probably horrified him. I haven't read any of the professor's letters, but I would be very surprised if he approved of anything the Bloomsburys did.

So should I ask Moggy to restore my old name?

Hi, everyone!

I'm just dropping a quick note. It appears as though EW may not be doing Thumbsucker after all. :( His name has been removed from the list on IMDB, and a couple of recent magazines mention only Keanu Reeves and not a hint at Elwood. In fact, at Movies.com, it says that the title role belongs to Reeves. :eek:

Now, who knows if any of this is accurate? But maybe the film was delayed to the point where it conflicted with pick-ups for ROTK, or something. Or, maybe he got an offer for something he liked better. Maybe even Eternal Sunshine is the culprit... Oh, well.