Your post made me want to comment on a lot, Alyon. :)

Ah, and yet forever now--Frodo will look like Elijah in the popular imagination. It's interesting how characters evolve when there are popular new additions to original myth and story.This is a very interesting topic, as are the examples you give. I agree with you - popular visual images and portrayals get embedded in our subconscious *and* conscious and strongly shape how we see certain mythological, historical, literary,or fairy-tale characters. On the one hand, this seems to limit each individual's free imagination, since it substitutes all the individual ideas and images each of us form when reading a story with one shared specific image or with specific characteristics. On the other hand, establishing such new common visual images is a collective creative process in itself, I suppose, and probably wouldn't work if it didn't reverberate and reflect something that many of us recognize and immediately feel to be *just right*, anyway.

I think Disney has had that kind of impact on the collective imagination too, for good and bad. Certainly when thinking of many well-known fairy tale characters it's the Disney version that first springs to mind. Same goes for Pocahontas.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes:


I think we now have slender hobbits in the lore to stay. And one with dark hair and blue eyes...and uncommon beauty. That will be Frodo. I think you are right - at least for quite some time to come. And since I readily admit to every single swoon I've ever done over Elijah's Frodo, I certainly don't mind at all that *this* is the Frodo that has become one of our "common mythological images." :)

A couple of thoughts spring forth from this; - one is, of course, the old debate of whether Frodo would have made such an impact if somebody with Elijah's talent but less of his looks had played Frodo. Remember that dreadful RotK review of some guy who was bemoaning how Elijah ruined RotK and how much better someone like Gene Hackman would have been in the role? I've always wondered if that last was a serious suggestion, or if it was an attempt at a joke (if so, also insulting to Mr. Hackman!). Personally, despite my Frolijah swooning, I feel sure that it is the incredible acting talent that mainly made Elijah's Frodo the completely *right* Frodo, the Frodo making an impression sufficient enough to enter the collective imagination's view of the Ringbearer. (If indeed he has come that far - I'm really much too biased to be a judge on this! :o But I think he has. :) )

I'm having a very hard time picturing anyone else as Frodo now, or picturing another Frodo. That nearly impossible-to-understand way that Elijah *became* Frodo and made me believe and recognize and *feel* every emotion, every reaction..... as documented in tg's "One expression" collage, for instance. There are lots of reasonably talented good-looking actors out there; - none of them has even come close to impress and amaze me in any way like Elijah's Frodo continues to do. Still, his looks do play a very important part in that too, I'd be a complete hypocrite not to admit that.

To skip to a comparison for a moment: I haven't seen "Troy" yet - but from the reviews I've read Brad Pitt isn't likely to enter the collective imagination as Achilles, nor Orlando as Paris....

Be that as it may, I've never had any difficulty with PJ's Frodo being so *young* and beautiful and vulnerable; - less mature compared to what canon would make us expect. I think the image of the bright-eyed, innocent young man who ventures courageously forth into some dreadful war (even one that's perceived to be both just and even necessary), showing courage and determination while going through hell, and then comes home changed, with a wounded soul and having lost the innocence and idealism along the way, must be the image of many of Tolkien's contemporaries participating in WWI. I find that very poignant, and very sad; - his war experiences must have informed his writing and not least Frodo's "PTSD", and I think it's fitting that movieFrodo mirrors this.
The Rohirrim getting the young boys dressed up for war echoes with the same theme and the same desperate sadness in TTT. :(

This is a very interesting topic, as are the examples you give. I agree with you - popular visual images and portrayals get embedded in our subconscious *and* conscious and strongly shape how we see certain mythological, historical, literary,or fairy-tale characters.


My story's actually slightly different from some of you, since my introduction to Tolkien was Rankin and Bass' cartoon, The Hobbit. From that point forward, my perception of the characters were those cartoons. I never saw them as "flesh and blood", I don't believe, when I read the books, and that's probably why I didn't especially like Bakshi's version of LOTR then (and still don't now). So strongly were those images a part of my LOTR experience, in fact, that there are still moments that I prefer the cartoon Gollum, voiced by the brilliant Theodore, despite loving Andy Serkis to bits (and I am just beside myself with anticipation to think of Andy doing "Riddles In the Dark").


A couple of thoughts spring forth from this; - one is, of course, the old debate of whether Frodo would have made such an impact if somebody with Elijah's talent but less of his looks had played Frodo.


I think it's clear that there surely wouldn't be as much fanfiction (of every stripe) written had Frodo not been portrayed by such a beautiful actor.


Personally, despite my Frolijah swooning, I feel sure that it is the incredible acting talent that mainly made Elijah's Frodo the completely *right* Frodo, the Frodo making an impression sufficient enough to enter the collective imagination's view of the Ringbearer. (If indeed he has come that far - I'm really much too biased to be a judge on this! :o But I think he has. :) )


I'm sure you're right, and of course, that's entirely subjective anyway. There are those that appreciate Elijah's talent but don't find him the gorgeous specimen that others of us do.

Be that as it may, I've never had any difficulty with PJ's Frodo being so *young* and beautiful and vulnerable; - less mature compared to what canon would make us expect. I think the image of the bright-eyed, innocent young man who ventures courageously forth into some dreadful war (even one that's perceived to be both just and even necessary), showing courage and determination while going through hell, and then comes home changed, with a wounded soul and having lost the innocence and idealism along the way, must be the image of many of Tolkien's contemporaries participating in WWI. I find that very poignant, and very sad; - his war experiences must have informed his writing and not least Frodo's "PTSD", and I think it's fitting that movieFrodo mirrors this.

The Rohirrim getting the young boys dressed up for war echoes with the same theme and the same desperate sadness in TTT. :(


Nothing further to add here, but you just expressed this so perfectly and beautifully, I just had to quote it :)

I'm having a very hard time picturing anyone else as Frodo now, or picturing another Frodo. That nearly impossible-to-understand way that Elijah *became* Frodo and made me believe and recognize and *feel* every emotion, every reaction..... as documented in tg's "One expression" collage, for instance. There are lots of reasonably talented good-looking actors out there; - none of them has even come close to impress and amaze me in any way like Elijah's Frodo continues to do. Still, his looks do play a very important part in that too, I'd be a complete hypocrite not to admit that.


Be that as it may, I've never had any difficulty with PJ's Frodo being so *young* and beautiful and vulnerable; - less mature compared to what canon would make us expect. I think the image of the bright-eyed, innocent young man who ventures courageously forth into some dreadful war (even one that's perceived to be both just and even necessary), showing courage and determination while going through hell, and then comes home changed, with a wounded soul and having lost the innocence and idealism along the way, must be the image of many of Tolkien's contemporaries participating in WWI. I find that very poignant, and very sad; - his war experiences must have informed his writing and not least Frodo's "PTSD", and I think it's fitting that movieFrodo mirrors this.
The Rohirrim getting the young boys dressed up for war echoes with the same theme and the same desperate sadness in TTT. :(

All I can say is 'ME TOO,' Maeg.

Thanks to all for last week's kind and generous birthday greetings. Ainon - I loved the 'card.' Thanks for that :k (ainon)

It's after midnight, so I don't think it's too early to say:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY HONEYELF!!!

Here's a little gift for you:

HONEYELF'S BIRTHDAY PRESENT (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Honeyelf.gif)

Have a lovely day!

Warning: Geeky ruminations incorporating info from The Hobbit and LotR--including the Prologue and Appendix C




It's an interesting research proposition, actually. And no kidding. It seems that the image of the adorable Frodo with longish dark hair and big feet covered with sparse bristles is a creation of one Mr Bakshi...
I would have to do some research to know for certain, but I do think some of that image of hobbits predates even Bakshi. One of my biggest complaints about Tolkien artists in general has always been that the majority of them just don't give hobbits enough hair on their feet. They brush them (their feet, that is), FES (well, at least Bilbo does ;) )! I've seen only a couple of artists whose hobbits would have enough hair on their feet to brush. I don't know why that is--maybe the artists are trying to not make them look like rabbits :confused: ?

As I would understand "proper" hobbit appearance, most of them have brown, curly hair, and IIRC we are told that Frodo had brown hair. But "brown hair" can cover quite a range. IMHO, as the only harfoot among the four Travelers, Sam would have the darkest hair and would also be the stockiest and the shortest. The other three, as fallohides, would be taller and slimmer than most hobbits, with Frodo specifically being "taller than most." RB gets those things right (in fact, in some scenes he makes Frodo too tall, IMHO); PJ gets Sam as stockiest, but beyond that...

It's my own interpretation, I suppose, that the epitome of "fallohidism" is found in the Took line, because of that bit of "fairy blood." At first I thought I'd caught RB in a mistake there, because he gave Merry lighter hair than Pippin. But then I went back and re-scrutinized the family trees and realized that Merry would actually have more Took ancestry than Pippin (geez, how geeky is it that I remember that so specifically all these years later :o ). So, PJ does pretty well with Merry and Pippin--Merry's a bit taller and has lighter hair than Pippin. But height and hair color should be more-or-less switched for Frodo and Sam. RB gets everything straight as far as hair color, but he kind of falls down on the "curly" part, which PJ does pretty well with the hair on their heads--but the hair they should have on their feet would also be curly.




End of geeky ruminations



On a different topic, I saw a short note in, I think, Film magazine (I was looking through a lot of magazines at the book store and should have paid more attention as to what I was reading where :o ) that said Robert Rodriguez had to quit the Directors' Guild in order to make Sin City, and that this might make him unable to direct the next movie he had signed on for. Has anyone seen an explanation of why he'd have to leave the Guild because of Sin City :confused: ?

-----------

Well, when I started writing this it was still before midnight here, but now it's after, so I'll wish a Very Happy Birthday to Honey! And thanks for letting me peek at your birthday present from Blossom ;) . An awesome (in the true sense of the word :) ) mega-gif, Blossom!

Has anyone seen an explanation of why he'd have to leave the Guild because of Sin City?


From what I remember reading, it has something to do with co-directing. Apparently, a member of the Guild cannot share directing credit with someone else, and Rodriguez is co-directing Sin City with Frank Miller (who wrote the books), and wanted to credit to reflect that.

I may have butchered that slightly, but it was something to that effect. I wonder whether he is able to re-join the Guild once the film is completed? :confused:

Happy birthday, Honeyelf!

:) :) :)

And also a very happy birthday to LEK, although she'll probably not read this.

Blossom, thank you so much for the lovely birthday gif(t) that we all can share in! :k Frodo being lifted by the eagle is one of the most emotional, beautiful and stunning scenes in the entire film.


PJ does pretty well with the hair on their heads--but the hair they should have on their feet would also be curly. Yes, that would be canon, but perhaps the movie feet make sense cinematically. Curly hair on the feet might perhaps look a little like the hobbits were wearing fur slippers, or fur boots :p , while the movie feet do tend to emphasize and remind the audience that hobbits are in fact a separate race, not just very short (sometimes beautiful) humans.

Another possibility is that the hobbit movie feet were inspired by the Hildebrandts. :eek: I think they look quite similar in some pictures.....

....there are still moments that I prefer the cartoon Gollum I haven't seen any of the RB cartoons (though I very much would like to see them, especially their RotK. I do think I'd have a field day with the minstrel, and the Whip with a way and all....) but Bakshi's Gollum made a strong impression when I first saw that film many years ago, and remained my main mental image of Gollum until he was joined by, and mostly replaced by, Andy Serkis' brilliant portrayal. Gollum is such a unique creation of Tolkien's, he must have been a most rewarding - and challenging - subject for all the LotR-related filmmakers.

Happy Birthday, Honeyelf ! :)

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/prost_frodo.jpg
Cheers and here's to you! Have a lovely day!

Now, your gif(t), Blossom, is of special magnificence! How beautiful *sigh*


On the one hand, this seems to limit each individual's free imagination, since it substitutes all the individual ideas and images each of us form when reading a story with one shared specific image or with specific characteristics. On the other hand, establishing such new common visual images is a collective creative process in itself, I suppose, and probably wouldn't work if it didn't reverberate and reflect something that many of us recognize and immediately feel to be *just right*, anyway.

Maeglian, wonderful reflections on our "common mythological images" and collective imagination :) ! Painting, drawing and working with pictures/images in general shows (and proofs) me the richness of collective imagination almost every day. And I'm convinced PJ comes closely to these images by means of his choice of LOTR actors (I'm speaking from a "common" point of view - the individual images may differ, of course). As for me I think Elijah's Frodo represents a type of "Frodo animus" (that's a C.G.Jung term and means in short something like this: The Animus is the personification of all masculine psychological tendencies within a woman, the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's unconscious. The anima and animus draw their power especially from the collective unconscious, but they are also conditioned by a person's individual experiences.
I don't want to go too deep into shrink drivel - but what never ceases to amaze me is how immensely enthralled many women react to Frolijah (including myself :p and besides from the fact that EW is an absolutely fantastic actor), drooling over his looks and his charisma.


Frodo - at least in the first part of the book, it's like looking at a soul. Elijah gave that soul a voice, a body, and an extraordinary beautiful face.

Beautifully put, Grumpy. Thank you. :)

http://img67.photobucket.com/albums/v203/cheryl_cat/honeyelf.jpg

Alright, it seems like Elijah's actually in Kansas, NOT Prague.

Mandan woman wins top national service award
By Tribune staff
Harriet McClelland, Mandan, has won the National Spirit Of Service Award. She was selected from 500,000 RSVP volunteers in the nation.

McClelland is a team member of "Alternatives to Violence" program at the North Dakota State Penitentiary. McClelland and two other team members are locked in with inmates for six weekend retreats a year. No guards or staff are present during the workshop, and the program is optional for the inmates. The workshop provides a safe place for inmates to practice new ways to deal nonviolently with conflict.

McClelland and Loretta Lord, RSVP director, will be at the National Leadership Conference in Kansas City, Mo., where Elijah Wood, star of the "Lord of the Rings" trilogy, will present the award Sunday.

The Spirit of Service Award pays tribute to the most outstanding participants in the Senior Corps, AmeriCorps, and Learn and Serve America service programs. Winners are chosen because they have exemplified the spirit of national service, demonstrated exceptional service of leadership and served as models for their community.

Of the national service programs, RSVP is by far the largest, and the only program whose volunteers do not receive a stipend or out-of-pocket expense reimbursement.

McClelland was the Outstanding N.D. Volunteer chosen from all volunteer agencies and programs in 2003, presented by the N.D. Coordinators of Volunteer Service.


source:
http://www.bismarcktribune.com/articles/2004/06/05/news/state/sta02.txt

Happy Birthday, Honeyelf!
:)

I'm enjoying all those gifts (Blossom's amazing gif, the pictures,...) you're getting, honey. I hope you're having a great day and will have a fantastic new year in your life.
:k

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ALL THAT I MISED!!!! :k :k

SOME LOVELY GIFTS LADYS!! I CAN LOOK AT THEM FOR EVER!!! :k :k

Kansas? Right now he's on CBS on Deep Impact. He just got married. Innocence personified. :::: sniffle ::::

I just turned it on, and wasn't terribly impressed with his delivery of his lines. Of course, he was what - 8 years younger than he is now? But my goodness - what a beautiful child he was!

~grumpy
"He fell from a star,
He fell very far,
And Iowa, they say
Is the name of the star,
And Iowa, they say
Is the name of the star" -- (with apologies to the Munchkins)

Random, if you ever lurk again, thank you for saying this (a few days back) :k :
And this love is all to do with the Lad and his great, amazingly subtle performance which gets better every time I see it, for all the reasons you’ve posted – the depth of emotional feeling, the integrity, the truthfulness, the beauty. (Beauty is truth, truth beauty – that is all ye know on earth, and all ye need to know…) Frodo/Elijah have so often evoked Keats' words.

Happy Birthday, HoneyElf!!

Fireworks?? Food?? And Hobbit movies?? Hope it's at least that good for you.

And TG---OH MY OH MY OH MY. One must be prepared before casually tripping over to your site and opening the door to THE ONE EXPRESSION Page!! Was I not listening to the heavy breathing of my fellow
Faculty members?? OH, that did not sound academic enough. I mean...there is a lot to study. To peruse. To contemplate and to give meaningful thought to...

I'm glad this is a study of the heart, not just of the mind. My heart likes it just fine...my mind says you certainly have given the naysayers a lot to explain

Thank you, everyone, for the birthday wishes, and the lovely pictures. Blossom, the gif(t) is wonderful! I love it! Whiteling, I might just overcome my dislike of beer if I could hoist a half pint with Frodo (or Elijah!)

Lots of beautiful thoughts, but I'm too tired to comment coherently ( so what's new?:rolleyes: ) I had ot work today.

Hugs,
Honey!

[QUOTE=zkgrumpy]Kansas? Right now he's on CBS on Deep Impact. He just got married. Innocence personified. :::: sniffle ::::

I just turned it on, and wasn't terribly impressed with his delivery of his lines. Of course, he was what - 8 years younger than he is now? But my goodness - what a beautiful child he was!

[QUOTE]

Well, his delivery of lines was probably royally screwed by the capping of his teeth. You could tell that it was hard for him to speak with that god awful thing in his mouth. He was almost lisping.

I still don't understand why they had to cap his teeth like that. His gap is beautiful so leave it alone folks.

Happy belated Birthday, Honeyelf!

Frodo/Elijah have so often evoked Keats' words.
It's known that Keats was inspired by a contemporary copy of a Roman copy of a Greek vase. One might certainly argue that Frolijah is a Hollywood copy of an Oxford copy of a Norse mythic figure--but I don't suppose that it's what you had in mind :). --- I'm having a deja vu moment here. I'm almost sure that I've already posted the same comment about the same Keats' quote somewhere on these boards :confused:. --- Anyhow, the conclusion could be that beauty may transcend truth in the domain of art and imagination.

the conclusion could be that beauty may transcend truth in the domain of art and imagination. I'm sure I'm way out of my philosophical depths, here.... But the beauty/truth comments made me think: Is "Beauty" more easily recognized than "Truth", despite the obvious subjectivity of both terms, because our view of Beauty to some extent rises from our "Collective subconscious" and deeply ingrained instinctive reflexes, while the view of Truth requires us to more actively also engage the brain, and to consciously reflect?

Well, I'm not sure that made any sense. :o


From Whiteling
---"Frodo animus" (snip) The Animus is the personification of all masculine psychological tendencies within a woman, the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's unconscious. The anima and animus draw their power especially from the collective unconscious, but they are also conditioned by a person's individual experiences.

Fascinating idea that Frodo/Frolijah might personify the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's subconscious. Might go a long way to explaining why many men seem to be anxious to dismiss Frodo as a pathetic, crying wimp, -that they in fact feel threatened or insecure when being reminded of his characteristics as masculine traits and of the fact that they are appreciated by women, when those traits at the same time are so far from all that our current society and many of its cultural phenomenon teach us is *truly masculine*. And no wonder that so many women embrace Frodo as a true hero, anyway.

I'm not sure that made sense, either....? :o And I haven't got any empiric evidence at all to support my statements and opinions about gender differences in Frodo-appreciation. :eek:


Hobbityme, your birthday greeting picture is utterly lovely, I hope you don't mind that I snagged it to make myself an LJ user picture and avatar.


Edit: I forgot to mention this, but it's quite weird: I hadn't planned on getting hold of "Everything is Illuminated", since my interest is more focused on Tolkien and Elijah's Frodo. However, while browsing through a small book shop yesterday, looking for a suitable birthday gift, I stumbled on EII in translated version, lying all by itself at a reasonable price on a "bargains" table. I had no idea that the book had even *been* translated. I would have preferred to read the original version, but I saw this book as some kind of sign, so I bought it. I've only read the first chapter, but that's enough to make me realize what a singular challenge the book must have been for the translator - the way Aleks uses the wrong words and mangles phrases to unintentional comic effect all the time. (Well, it's either that, or the translator is the worst there ever was!)

Maeglian,
Is "Beauty" more easily recognized than "Truth", despite the obvious subjectivity of both terms, because our view of Beauty to some extent rises from our "Collective subconscious" and deeply ingrained instinctive reflexes, while the view of Truth requires us to more actively also engage the brain, and to consciously reflect?

Well, I'm not sure that made any sense.

No...I mean yes !!!...it makes perfect sense...to me anyway!!!

The fact is that the realm of the imagination is governed by the same side of the brain as the senses...sight, taste, touch, hearing, and smell....and appreciation of all things artistic is also governed here..so it makes perfect sense that your reaction to a beautiful face - in this case, Our Frodo - is a direct result of your sub-conscious evaluation of said face in terms of aesthetic attraction...and that, in turn depends on what your own experience of what you consider to be sexually attractive to you personally...what you consider to be attractive won't necessarily be attractive to some one else ( thank goodness, or else we'd all be after the same men, and where would THAT lead to ? )

It's just that some faces get a good reaction more than others...and that depends on various things which convey good genes for the purpose of procreation:- regularity of features, evenness of skin-tone, glossiness of hair etc, etc...Let's face it...some men have got it in spades, and Our Frodo is one of them !!!

In other words, you fancy the pants off him :D :D :D...
( Never mind, eh !! )

The evaluation of Truth requires the other side of the brain, which governs the ability to reason, argue, debate, work things out, form logical arguments and opinions, and working out of mathematical puzzles etc, etc...

Not nearly so much fun, imo...don't you think ?

I wish I could remember where I read this years ago (because this is such a scholarly thread, of course I'd like to list the citation all proper ;) ), but anyway, for what it's worth, in the Middle Ages a gap between one's teeth was taken as a sign of a lascivious nature.

*runs quickly away*

Interesting discussion on truth and beauty--the only thing I might add is that, IMVVHO, the deeper we go into truth, the more it becomes true beauty, and the less it resembles "facts" and "logical arguments," which are really only its most insignificant manifestations.

On animus/anima, I've always thought Tolkien made hobbits in general--and Frodo in particular--quite in touch with their feminine aspects.

My sister is in town this weekend, which is one reason I'm dropping in fast and taking off again. But as soon as I laid eyes on our waiter at the restaurant we had dinner at on Friday night, my first thought was, "I've got to tell the Faculty about this :p !" I swear it was the guy with the remote control here ;) :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/69.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/73.jpg

If Elijah has an "I couldn't care less if you know I'm gay," twin brother, he lives in Omaha. A very personable, fun, and focused-on-the-other-person guy, too--it must run in the family :p .

---------

Finally, keeping my sanity doesn't allow me to completely stay away from RotK caps until the site's ready for July updates. The overall site's so large now, I have to publish it in "pieces," so here's the first couple of pages of the new RotK part. There's no linking to it from the main site yet, but you can reach it directly at http://www.frodolivesin.us/RotK

Happy birthday, Honey!

Regarding foot and head hair: My opinion reflects what Maeglian expressed, that the very furry feet on screen would look like slippers. I think our dear, comfortable-with-their-feminine-aspects hobbits would have gotten even more razzing by certain viewers had they trekked to Mordor wearing bunny slippers. The feet that PJ gave them were truly ugly, perhaps to offset the cuteness of the rest of their bodies.

I had always envisioned Book!Frodo with blond hair -- I think it was the "fairer than most" comment that did it. When I saw that PJ's Frodo had dark hair, I thought that PJ was going to age him by putting silver streaks in it, to show the toll the Ring was taking on Frodo. This did not happen, but I like to think there was at least a makeup test! :p So now I think, either the makeup test failed (no one believed silver hair on Frodo), or PJ was showing that this hobbit was tempted towards the "dark" side; his dark hair sets him off visually at all times from the other hobbits, and foreshadows his battle with the Dark Lord.

I really enjoyed the animus/anima conversation. However, this stands out:

from Lady Wendy
In other words, you fancy the pants off him
Now, this is psychobabble that I can get behind! :D

One might certainly argue that Frolijah is a Hollywood copy of an Oxford copy of a Norse mythic figure
Nice one, Brunhild!

*runs off with Alyon and Flourish, giggling, to do more "research" *

Now, this is psychobabble that I can get behind! Nah, Mariole, if this was true psychobabble the sentence expressing this opinion would be 3 lines long and very convoluted. I'd have a go at the pshychobabble version, but I don't know enough proper English psychobabble words. Oh, the trauma of not being able to express any sentiment in a confusingly highmindedly scientific way! :rolleyes: :D

....either the makeup test failed (no one believed silver hair on Frodo), or PJ was showing that this hobbit was tempted towards the "dark" side; his dark hair sets him off visually at all times from the other hobbits, and foreshadows his battle with the Dark Lord. .....or some ladies in makeup, or Fran and Philippa, had a word with PJ after seeing the initial wig-and-makeup test pictures. Anyway, we *do* know they did those makeup tests nearly without hair for the Gollum-wannabe look at Henneth Anun.... **shudder**. I'm glad they scrapped that idea too.

Seriously, I think they chose the hair colour to set him apart from the other hobbits. Plus, it looks good.

The evaluation of Truth requires the other side of the brain, which governs the ability to reason, argue, debate, work things out, form logical arguments and opinions The last part sounds like a general Faculty mission statement, doeesn't it? So.....if we were strictly dedicated to *thruth* only, it might just as well be the truth of Gollum's deterioration and the strange alteration of his teeth through the years, the truth behind the preserved look of the corpses in the Dead marshes, the truth about Gothmog's blubbery tumours, etc? :eek: :p

Wow, am I ever glad we're by and large using *both* halves of the brain here in the Faculty! ;)

Tg, I suppose with the likely working hours of your waiter he won't be one to watch Saturday Night Live. Too bad, considering what he missed....


Edit: I'm going back and forth betwen the screen and various evening chores..... I realized that I'd have expected someone to comment on how our understanding of what "Beauty" is, is strongly culturally dependent....

Brunhild, re: Keats' words and your comment: ... the conclusion could be that beauty may transcend truth in the domain of art and imagination. Wonderfully extrapolated! (Btw, yes the thread of inspiration is wonderful. And I too have commented on this before. ;) )

One might certainly argue that Frolijah is a Hollywood copy of an Oxford copy of a Norse mythic figure

I love it, I love it, I love it! :D Can --oops, MAY I quote you in my sig-line, Brunhild? :D

Am really enjoying the discussion of truth and beauty. Ran across this pictureThe Taming of Gollumby Darrell Sweet (http://www.nightrunner.com/cgi-bin/show_image.rb?id=2987&pn=0) I wonder how much fan-fic would be written if our movie heroes looked like these little guys?

Editted: I knew there was something else...

Regarding the anima/animus discussion, don't some movie males seem more well rounded as human beings lately? I loved "Master and Commander" because of the relationships. Hollywood used to be unable to put two men in a room without having them engaging in a p*ssing contest; there was always conflict. In M&C one important scene involves the decision on whether to go after the Acheron, or go to the Galapagos, but it's not played with the usual head-butting and chest beating.

Compare M&C to another recent movie, "The Rundown" with the 'Rock.' The two men in that movie work out their conflicting motivations by practically beating each other to a pulp. Same old Hollywood claptrap.

How much do you think that Jackson's war-time comrades in LoTR have to do with this? How much has the 2001 terrorist attack on American soil influenced Hollywood?

Just thinkin' somemore,

Honey!

I'd have a go at the pshychobabble version, but I don't know enough proper English psychobabble words. Oh, the trauma of not being able to express any sentiment in a confusingly highmindedly scientific way! :rolleyes: :D

It's terrible, isn't it ;) ?!

I realized that I'd have expected someone to comment on how our understanding of what "Beauty" is, is strongly culturally dependent....

I think, this is particularily true for Beauty in the sense of prevailing taste. Every age had and has its own ideal of beauty what concerns hair style, skin colour, fashion, slenderness (or the lack of) etc. But I think there is Beauty in a classical sense like the bust of Nefertiti or the Venus de Milo et al, portraits of a timeless Beauty, independent of religions or vogues. That's the only form of Beauty which I personally consider Truth. (And Frolijah is clearly a worthy representative of this classic concept of Beauty)


I wonder how much fan-fic would be written if our movie heroes looked like these little guys?

Brrrr - and I dread to think what that fan-fic would be about? Style counselling for poor Samwise :rolleyes: :p ?

Regarding the anima/animus discussion, don't some movie males seem more well rounded as human beings lately?

I too have the impression that the most popular male archetyp - the "Warrior" - is gradually lessening and other traits of masculinity can outcrop. The time is ripe. The world affairs have certainly their bearing on this.

i hade nothing to ad to the discussion about truth and
beauty that hadent been sade!!
you are all very intelegent people and i am very lucky to bee a small
part in this board!!! :)
i can say that to me real beauty comes from the inside of the soul!
and in people who have this it shows in there eyes and faceexpression!
i hope you understands what i mean!!!!
to mee this thits to a speciell young man who have a speciell
place in my heart for that reson!! who can i be speking about?? :D :D

oh!and be aibel to show tru feelings among other peopel is also a speciell
gift i dont beleve i have seen many man do that like elijah(and viggo) did
when they hade shot the last scen,i just couldent help my self
i just started to cry!!
oh i bee rumbeling again i hope you forgive me and know what i try
to say!!!!

...don't some movie males seem more well rounded as human beings lately? I loved "Master and Commander" because of the relationships.
I wouldn't base any general conclusion on a Peter Weir film. The man has once made Gallipoli starring Mel Gibson as a young man who gets sick of needless violence :D.

Can --oops, MAY I quote you in my sig-line, Brunhild? :D
I think yes. :StiffUpperLipSmiley:

Nice one, Brunhild!
Thanks. But if you call this nice, you clearly haven't perused my Hamlet According to PJ:

[Shameless Self-Promotion] Applauded by Maeglian and compared to a weird dream of a Tolkien aficionado by Tgshaw, Brunhild's Comedy of the Tragedy of Hamlet (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showpost.php?p=229606&postcount=7462) is a sublime piece of ironic film criticism that is uniquely funny, insightful, and supportive of Elijah Wood's acting endeavour. [/SSP]

Why is everybody looking at me like that? Well, yes, I'm too shy to put this ad into my sig :haha:.

The Animus is the personification of all masculine psychological tendencies within a woman, the archetypal masculine symbolism within a woman's unconscious. The anima and animus draw their power especially from the collective unconscious, but they are also conditioned by a person's individual experiences.
This sounds really intriguing and I'd love to contribute but...(similar to what others have been saying)...my knowledge of English isn't good enough.
Besides, I doubt that I would be able to make a valuable contribution in my own language (so, I can't just hide behind that excuse)
Psycholology,...isn't exactly my speciality that's an understatement!. I'm more a facts and figures kind of person (economist).
But...I do enjoy reading stuff like this...so, keep going. :)
I even found myself looking it up and reading about Plato,...

But I think there is Beauty in a classical sense like the bust of Nefertiti or the Venus de Milo et al, portraits of a timeless Beauty, independent of religions or vogues. That's the only form of Beauty which I personally consider Truth. (And Frolijah is clearly a worthy representative of this classic concept of Beauty)
But Nefertiti and the Venus the Milo,...are linked to a great history, mythology. Would we still find it as intriguing and beautiful if those busts had just been found without knowing what they're all about?
It's beauty, combined with fascination, that. Nefertiti's bust isn't just beautiful, it's amazing to think what she was all about.
sorry, I'm rambling again

Somewhere, somehow...somebody has probably done a study on what's considered to be beautiful beyond time and culture (what we have in common and where our tastes differ).

I had a discussion with one of my friends about beauty and attraction.
She hardly ever finds somebody beautiful. She seeks perfection. Everything has to fit for it to be beautiful. Because all humans have flaws, she never finds somebody really beautiful...even if the flaws are minor.
I'm not a perfectionist. I tend to focus on details. Things I can get really excited about (keeping it clean...don't worry :p ) are hands and eyes in the first place. Somebody with average features can become really attractive if that person has soulful eyes, expressive hands, a great smile,...
Elijah Wood doesn't have really beautiful hands, in my opinion. They're a bit too small for that and I don't like the bitten nails. But, they are expressive. I love to see how he uses his hands when he talks. That's what makes them attractive, even if I don't find them that beautiful (am I making sense?)

Beauty is not the same thing as attraction, is it? (thank god) In fashion magazines, there are plenty of beautiful people, but rarely do I find them attractive (that's because they lack personality, in my opinion).



In other news...found a silly little column. You probably need a specific kind of humor to appreciate it. See what you think of it. I merely found it a bit dumn and superficial (although, that might have been the point of her article), written to get a certain reaction out of people.
While many of my dear friends and co-workers write their UCI/New U. farewells – attempting to compress years of sweat, blood and shameful yet unforgettable drunken evenings into a stellar 20-inch legacy – I continue to quasi-slack off in this purgatory commonly known as the weeks before summer break, where the summer is so close yet six finals away—well, for me, at least. Depending on how you see it, as fate, luck or my severe misfortune would have it, I’ll be here again next year, wasting your time.
But just because I’m not leaving, that doesn’t mean that I can’t reflect at the end of the year as well.
As your Spotlight editor for the past year I’ve experienced a lot of things that I never would have anticipated. I was fortunate enough to do things that also happen to be other people’s fantasies.

Stop right there and get your mind out of the gutter.

The fantasies I’m talking about are more along the lines of sitting next to Tyrese and Paul Walker (Tyrese touched my leg—seriously) or getting all-access passes to a concert or two, complete with tour bus festivities afterward.
And despite all of the truly phenomenal experiences I’ve had thus far, the epiphany that I have most frequently is that most celebrities, rock stars and other people of star quality walk on the shorter side of life.

There—I said it. They’re short.

Seriously, it’s true. With the exception of a few individuals – like The Rock and Ashton Kutcher – most of the people that I’ve met have turned out to be tragically vertically challenged. Those who I anticipated to be short have turned out to be even shorter – think middle school-boy height – which doesn’t exactly turn me on, but going back to those of you from last week who prey on the under-aged, then hey—they’re right up your alley.

Case and point: Meeting “The Lord of the Rings” hobbits Dominic Monaghan, Billy Boyd and the ring bearer himself, Elijah Wood, I was astonished that their actual heights are indeed borderline hobbit-esque. The fact that they were about eye level to my incredible double-D’s (OK, so I exaggerated—my incredible D’s) didn’t bother me. Rather, it was the fact that each of them in their nearly-five-foot glory will make more money in five years than perhaps I’ll see in my entire lifetime—unless, of course, I drop out of college now, take my lovely D’s and go to stripper school. With the prospect of earning dollar bills from sweaty, married, overweight, middle-aged businessmen aside, the point is this: The idea of people shorter than me making more money than me thoroughly upsets me. Furthermore, the fact that this thought even crossed my mind has caused me to seriously consider getting intense counseling.

What the hell?

For the love of all that is good and weighs over 100 pounds, let’s get to the bottom of this.
It’s not their actual height that bothers me. Rather, I think it’s their resemblance to real, actual children. Children with old faces, which are the worst kind of children, if you ask me.

So there’s this potential to have a nice face, good teeth, nice eyes and chiseled features attached to little shoulders, little hands, little feet and a little ... you get the idea. Whenever I see little hands alone I feel moderately obligated to hold them as I cross the street. And to think that in actuality these little hands clutch large wads of cash to tuck into the G-strings of large (comparatively speaking) strippers kind of bothers me.

Don’t you agree?
I think I would feel better if I knew that they were getting paid in Monopoly money or something—or if they only received money once a week and they referred to it as their “allowance.”

Yeah, well, call me crazy and I probably wouldn’t argue with you.
Great – now I feel bad because I know that most people on this campus are bite-sized – perfect for the snacking purposes of large dogs, savages and most of the players in the NBA.
Given that the Dalai Lama recently visited UCI, I think it’s only appropriate to ask—what would the Dalai Lama say?
Since I’m no reincarnation of a holy being, forgive me if my prediction is a little off, but I believe that the Dalai Lama would say that the ginormous sums of cold hard cash are merely the universe’s way of compensating them for being short in this life and then he would break into infectious laughter.

This has been another waste of your time. But oh well, I just thought I’d give my two cents. I don’t want to sell myself short—haha, just kidding.
Source: http://horus.vcsa.uci.edu (http://horus.vcsa.uci.edu/article.php?id=2550)
Well, if I were to stand in front of Elijah Wood, I would be able to look almost straight into his eyes (he's only 2cm taller than I am). Nothing wrong with that view.

i have to agree with you moondancer!!
thats one reson why i not go in any deeper
discussions becuse of my bad english!! :rolleyes:
and if i was standing infront of mr.beautiful him self
i dont know what i would do!!! :rolleyes: :D :p
my hight is 1.65cm i dont know what that makes it in english
but i do know this I WOULD BE DRAWN TO HIS BLUE BLUE EYES
AND TO ME VERY BEAUTIFUL FACE!!!!! :D :p :k ;)

There have been scientific studies done to try to determine what people consider "beautiful" in the human face. I can't give any links or references at the moment but I'll try to find some in my spare :rolleyes: time....

The gist of it is that researchers mapped out the dimensions of faces most of their study subjects considered beautiful (and I do know they looked at female faces but I can't remember whether they looked at males as well). They came to conclusions about things like the distance between the centers of the pupils, the proportion of forehead to the rest of the face, the height of the ears, and so on and how these contributed to the universal perception of beauty. Interesting stuff.

Heh heh heh. Thanks, Moondancer. You can count me as one of those with a weird enough sense of humor to be amused by the article you quoted. It's not just short people -- I'm fascinated with relative size. A short person standing next to a tall person. Gandalf next to Merry next to an Ent. That kind of thing. The fascinating differences in size.

Whenever I see a tiny little person walking around in 4-inch heels (even in the airport, just to give her some stature), I think, that person has to pay full fare for a plane seat just like me. That person has a fully developed brain and goals just like me. They're just short! It's fun. Then, I look at some of these huuuuge guys (like American football players, yuck!) and I think, er, isn't that a rather excessive overabundance of mass you've got there? I mean, do you really need to weigh 350 pounds, when only 80 of it is skeletal structure? Huh, do ya? It intrigues me. I'm not sure why, but I think it must be related to liking dinosaurs as a kid. :rolleyes:

As for the comment on short celebrities, I wonder if the phrase "larger than life" has a special appeal for short people? I never knew Christopher Plummer was small. I saw The Sound of Music 900 times, and they had masked his height so masterfully (always placing him next to petite actors) that I never knew he was short until I saw him play Sherlock Holmes (who is supposed to be unusually tall), and I thought, Hey! But Chris Plummer has a gorgeous face, very sculpted and expressive, and I'm very glad that so many people can get so much enjoyment out of his talents without stopping to reflect every 2 minutes, "Yeah, but he's really short, isn't he?" (and all the follow-on questions that brings, although I'm not nearly as disturbed by all this as much as poor Tracy Ung. I have never once felt the urge to guide someone across the street; however, if it were Elwood, I might make an exception).

You have a camera. You position it low and point it up. Suddenly the audience is seeing something they wouldn't ordinarily see -- a beauty they might not otherwise ever have seen, let alone appreciate. A talent let loose to play where it won't constantly have to struggle against prejudice. To me, these are good things about the movies. Bring on the short people, I say.

Beauty is not the same thing as attraction, is it? (thank god) In fashion magazines, there are plenty of beautiful people, but rarely do I find them attractive (that's because they lack personality, in my opinion).
Absolutely, well said. In fact, many of the most popular actors (I'll pick Harrison Ford and Kathleen Turner as examples) actually rely on their charisma instead of their looks. They're fine looking people, but I don't think they would stop you on the street were it not for the engaging personalities they can project on screen.

There have been scientific studies done to try to determine what people consider "beautiful" in the human face. I can't give any links or references at the moment
Yikes. Me, too, Flourish. I'll have to look this up. What I do recall, in addition to what you mention, is that (in one study, anyway) they found that, the more "regular" the features, the more attractive the person appeared to be. So when they did composite pictures, the face whose eyes were in the most "normal" position, whose nose and lips were the most "normal" in size (culture specific -- as African and American "votes" on beauty varied largely on this value) -- that face was perceived as more "beautiful." So Elijah must be considered extraordinarily beautiful because in so many ways he's just exactly average -- go figure that out! :p

Elijah Wood doesn't have really beautiful hands, in my opinion. They're a bit too small for that and I don't like the bitten nails. But, they are expressive. I love to see how he uses his hands when he talks. That's what makes them attractive, even if I don't find them that beautiful (am I making sense?)
Making perfect sense, although I've always thought his hands were a bit too large for the rest of him :p .

I merely found it a bit dumn and superficial (although, that might have been the point of her article)...
I think that's exactly the point, evidence being:

It's a column from a college newspaper (University of California at Irvine).

The name of the column is "Wasting Your Time."

It's evidently the last column of the school year, when everyone is facing final exams and then leaving for the summer--which makes it even more likely to be "fluff" (because the author has six final exams to study for so doesn't have much time to spend writing a column but is still obligated to come up with one, and because most students are going to prefer something light to read as they don't have the time or inclination to reflect on anything serious).

The author wants to make sure that readers know she doesn't really propose we all think this way: "Furthermore, the fact that this thought even crossed my mind has caused me to seriously consider getting intense counseling." It's probably a good thing for her to make this very clear, as my experience is that many readers of college newspapers don't seem to be able to recognize satire when they read it (after a satiric column appears there are often a large number of "letters to the editor" written that make it obvious the reader took the column completely seriously).

So, IMHO, the column is primarily a case of making fun of people who do think this way about short people by making the attitude sound silly, with the author being honest enough to admit finding a bit of the attitude within herself, even though she doesn't see it as a good thing.

Maybe not too bad of a column for a week when the writer had six final exams to study for :p . But I hope she took good notes so that when she has time next fall she can come up with a more informative--even if still funny--article about meeting those particular three people. :)

There have been scientific studies done to try to determine what people consider "beautiful" in the human face. I can't give any links or references at the moment but I'll try to find some in my spare :rolleyes: time....

The gist of it is that researchers mapped out the dimensions of faces most of their study subjects considered beautiful (and I do know they looked at female faces but I can't remember whether they looked at males as well). They came to conclusions about things like the distance between the centers of the pupils, the proportion of forehead to the rest of the face, the height of the ears, and so on and how these contributed to the universal perception of beauty. Interesting stuff.

Delurking after a week at home with the children. Brain fried. :rolleyes:

I saw a TV programme about this a while back and it was really fascinating.
Here's a website I found about it;
Beauty mask (http://tlc.discovery.com/convergence/humanface/articles/mask.html)
Now if some faculty bod could apply the mask to Frolijah's face...... :z: :cool:
If you click on Timeless beauty you can see pictures of beauties from era's past with the mask overlaid. Some of them bear a surprising resemblance to Frolijah, IMHO.

Well, his delivery of lines was probably royally screwed by the capping of his teeth. You could tell that it was hard for him to speak with that god awful thing in his mouth. He was almost lisping.

I still don't understand why they had to cap his teeth like that. His gap is beautiful so leave it alone folks.

They did *WHAT*?!? :eek: :eek: :eek: They capped those beautiful, imperfect teeth? Shame on them! Geez - they might actually get an actor who looks like, you know, different than other actors.

Someone (can't find it now - sorry) talked about bright, innocent young men going off to war. Over the past couple of weeks, there have been innumerable specials and documentaries observing the 60th anniversary of D-Day. It's a very important day here, and I'm sure it's at least as important, if not more so, across the Puddle. I watched part of the official observance in France, with units from all of the countries marching, flyovers, and ships. It was impressive and somehow touching. Watching RotK afterwards affected me even more than usual, thinking of the Merrys and Pippens who hit the beaches, or the Gandalfs and Theodens and Eomers who commanded, or the Frodos and Sams who dropped out of the sky into the heart of the enemy, or Minas Tirith standing alone on the eastern front or the short, balding Aragorn with unprecedented power who walked away from it in the end. Trite, perhaps, to draw those comparisons, but that's what I was thinking of as I watched the documentaries and then RotK.

I'm not sure what I'm trying to say here. Don't mind me. I'll catch up on the discussion later, hopefully. You guys are using big words. Too big for a Monday morning. ;)

~grumpy

ZK, I know what your trying to say, and I think you said it very well.

From Moondancer
I had a discussion with one of my friends about beauty and attraction.
She hardly ever finds somebody beautiful. She seeks perfection.

I have the distinct feeling that your friend has a soul mate in whomever did the casting and makeup for "Deep Impact". Capping those teeth created much more of a standard good-looking soap-operaish guy with very white and even teeth, but somehow eradicated part of the ......personality.

From Quicksilver
Now if some faculty bod could apply the mask to Frolijah's face......

Yes indeed, the best way to ensure it's done, and done properly, is of course to do-it-yourself!

As a contribution to the cause, here's a draft letter I wrote a long while ago, when we were discussing something similar. (It's a topic well worth revisiting, btw!) I'm terribly lazy, I suppose, to re-post something instead of coming up with something new, but OTOH re-cycling is good for the environment, so here goes. ;) Should probably not be read when in a too serious frame of mind......



Dear Mr. Wood,

We are writing to you in the hope that we might convince you to participate in a scientific study focusing on proving or disproving the theory of the universal mathematical ratio for true human beauty, aka the beauty phi ratio.
As you may be aware, your face is the obvious and ideal study object for such a research project. This has been clearly established through close scrutiny of numerous still pictures of you as well as of your appearance in various film roles (especially the Lord of the Rings), by the members of several dedicated and scientifically oriented internet research communities. Foremost among these should be mentioned the well respected and much publicized Faculty.

The project would require your face to be thoroughly photographed from various angles, in addition to detailed observation, measurement and documentation of your facial features both as yourself and while in character as Frodo Baggins (ie. wearing “the wig”.) Observations and measurements involving the wig are particularly important in order to prove or disprove the much-debated theory that the measurements of several of your facial features change significantly whenever you appear in Frodo mode.

Correspondingly, there has been much discussion and several theories launched concerning the true color of your eyes, and the nature of their impact on those that look into them. We would therefore also request that the researchers be given the opportunity to further study this matter. Methods employed will of course be completely scientific in nature, and will include close observation, random eye contact endurance testing, and other relevant testing methods, all of which to be carried out under a number of light and visibility conditions deemed appropriate to the research and its documentation.

Should you agree to participate in this vitally important project, the actual observations, testing and measurements will of course be carried out by our most experienced and absolutely less-prone-to-swooning researchers. The research and its conclusions will be extensively documented and published by the Faculty.

We do hope that you realise the obvious importance of this project, and that you will agree to contribute as requested. We look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience.

Sincerely yours,

Attachement:
Specification and clarification of the project’s main parts:

1. Establishing whether or not facial features fit the beauty ratio theory
2. Establishing whether or not facial features fit the beauty ratio theory when in character as Frodo and wearing “the Wig”
3. Establishing whether there are differing results under 1) And 2), and if so, evaluating the reasons for this anomaly further.
4. Additional research on eye color and impact of eye contact.

Note: If both 1) and 2) yield negative results (ie. Face does not fit the ratio and proportionality outlined in the theory), this will be considered as absolute proof that the beauty theory in question cannot be considered valid, since obviously any sound theory on human beauty should encompass this particular research object.



***Realization dawns: Oh, you meant to apply the theory to *pictures*, I suppose! Maeg scampers off, all embarrassed....:D ***

Yes indeed, the best way to ensure it's done, and done properly, is of course to do-it-yourself!

As a contribution to the cause, here's a draft letter I wrote a long while ago, when we were discussing something similar. (It's a topic well worth revisiting, btw!) I'm terribly lazy, I suppose, to re-post something instead of coming up with something new, but OTOH re-cycling is good for the environment, so here goes. ;) Should probably not be read when in a too serious frame of mind......

:lol: Oh dear! That's perfect!

:::: choosing to take it very seriously and digging out every statistics text that I have ::::

Aha! "Handbook of Computational Statistics"! Here we are! Now...we need a hypothesis and reverse hypothesis, decide on one-tailed or two-tailed test (I've got the cats to provide the tails), margin of error, standard deviation of the mean...

I'd also like to volunteer to do at least some of the photography and a whole lot of the research...

~grumpy (they CAPPED his TEETH?!?)(Sheesh)

I'd also like to volunteer to do at least some of the photography and a whole lot of the research...




Let me in on this one, please? ;)

I have the distinct feeling that your friend has a soul mate in whomever did the casting and makeup for "Deep Impact". Capping those teeth created much more of a standard good-looking soap-operaish guy with very white and even teeth, but somehow eradicated part of the ......personality.

I could never understand why they messed with Elijah's teeth in this one but I've slowly been developing a theory that I think I proved with this go-round of watching it.

At the very beginning of the movie, Leo has braces. He hardly opens his mouth -- doesn't really smile -- so they're difficult to see but there is one line he delivers where the band of the bottom one across the lower teeth is very clear. You can see the metal glint, in fact (wish I could remember exactly what line it is -- sounds like a reason (excuse) for additional research!).

Then, a year is supposed to have passed between the initial discovery of the comet and the approaching time to impact with the earth. This is when you start to see that Leo's teeth are straight and perfect (especially in that famous Froshadowing scene of Leo with the rings in his palm, extending them to Sarah). So my theory is that since they couldn't make him physically look different (they didn't even cut his hair!), they wanted to do something to make it seem that time had passed, so giving him braces and showing the aftereffects is how they decided to do it.

Whoa! Achila! What an eye!!

Leo's braces are fairly visible in four frames, while the Beiderman family is watching the President's news conference and Leo says something like, "Nobdy say anything." (You'd think I'd have written down the line, but I was too busy looking at the pictures :rolleyes: ).

Here are the two frames (cropped, and sharpened a bit) that show them the most clearly:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/PDVD_60400.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/PDVD_60500.jpg

This didn't take as much research as it might seem ;) , because Leo's only in three scenes before the one where he proposes to Sarah. Shortly after the one above is the school rally, and I couldn't catch any glint of steel there. In the opening scene it's a bit iffy, but there's one possible sighting, especially if you're looking for it. Only thing is, the first pic below is what it looks like without any manipulation and the second is the same frame "overexposed" three times. So you wouldn't necessarily expect someone casually watching the movie to see the glint--and I'm not entirely sure the glint is from the braces. The opening scene is set about a year before the press conference/school rally, but I'd think it would be pretty unusual to wear braces for less than two years.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/PDVD_6080.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/PDVD_60800.jpg

An important addition to elwoodian research (and something w-a-y too subtle for me to expect from this movie :D ). Now, my main problem is that Elijah has some very good, emotionally subtle close-ups in the press conference scene, too--and I didn't expect to spend the rest of my life screencapping Deep Impact :p . I may have to set up a fan site ;) .

----------

Speaking of screencaps (not that I'm angling for appreciation or anything :o ), I've gotten the RotK part of my website connected to the main one now, so it may be easier for people to find the "It's gone" and "The end of all things" screencap pages. Unless there just isn't any interest in 78 pics of dying Frodo :confused: . Here's the direct link to the RotK section again: http://www.frodolivesin.us/RotK/ , but you can get there from the homepage now, too.

And, there's no way I could ever do any original art :eek: , but here's a fairly well-preserved Leonardo da Vinci sketch that was evidently hidden centuries ago in my image editor and was just discovered today :) :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/RotK/PDVD_558001-A.jpg

Whoa! Achila! What an eye!!

Leo's braces are fairly visible in four frames, while the Beiderman family is watching the President's news conference and Leo says something like, "Nobdy say anything." (You'd think I'd have written down the line, but I was too busy looking at the pictures :rolleyes: ).

I've cropped and sharpened them, and am in the process of uploading to Imagemagician--then will come back and edit them in here.

An important addition to elwoodian research (and something way too subtle for me to expect from this movie :p ).

Well, they should have figured out a way to do it differently, like have him get a haircut, because those caps (is that the word for them?) changed the shape of his mouth and you could tell that when he was reciting his lines, he really had to work on sounding normal... he also seemed a bit self-conscious in some scenes because of them.

I totally agree with you there, hobbityme!! IMHO the caps affect not only how he delivers lines, but also his ability to show nuanced facial expressions. Even with the caps, he can do that better than most actors, but he's still more limited than usual. He relies so much on those really subtle facial changes, and I'd think wearing the caps could very much "throw him off his game," because it wouldn't be the face he was used to working with.

There are lots of ways they could have shown the passage of time. My guess (and I'm only half kidding) is that they thought it would be unrealistic for a suburban American teen to not have straight teeth, since the vast majority of parents in that setting would have the kid wear braces if his teeth weren't perfect. But, please, how many people would consciously think of that while watching the movie :rolleyes: ?

But the fact that it was a bad decision doesn't reflect on the accuracy of Achila's research ;) . When searching for answers, we may not always like the ones we find :( .

Thanks for the confirming "caps", tg. I had this suspicion the last time I watched it but this time, I backed the DVD up a bunch of times to make sure. Someone announced on an lj that the movie would be on TV the night before it actually was, and when I found that it wasn't on, I simply watched my DVD instead.

What I can't understand is why they'd go to so much trouble to put Elijah in braces and then not even really show them in his mouth (or why they used this device in the first place when Sarah wasn't shown looking any different from one point to the next). Let's face it, if all us elwoodian scholars missed them, then the average moviegoer sure wouldn't have noticed it either.

What I can't understand is why they'd go to so much trouble to put Elijah in braces and then not even really show them in his mouth (or why they used this device in the first place when Sarah wasn't shown looking any different from one point to the next). Let's face it, if all us elwoodian scholars missed them, then the average moviegoer sure wouldn't have noticed it either.
I wonder if it isn't something like taking Barney's medication "aftermaths" in the Bumblebee book and using them in the movie (just as an example). That is, maybe someone on the project had an idea that was initiated but not followed through. Just a speculation, but I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of thing happens more often in movies than we normally notice.

But if that's what happened, we're left with the question of whether capping Elijah's teeth was a leftover result of the braces idea, or if the braces idea was an excuse to cap his teeth?

Regarding the braces, if they were just "pretend," they wouldn't have needed much effort. IMHO, in Deep Impact we're told enough about the amount of time that's passed without really needing visual clues; but, of course, that "telling" may have been added to the script later on.

Honey, I missed your birthday! Well,

Happy Belated Birthday, Honeyelf!

I can see from all the wonderful gifs and jpegs that it was the best kind: Frodofilled. :k

off-topic but sorta on-topic in terms of that movie adapted from books written by some English guy too, and well, there are two males too, see: honey, are you reading the M&C Jack Aubrey & Stephen Maturin books? The best of friends those two, and they just feel so real. I'm loving every page I can read about them. :)


Regarding the braces, if they were just "pretend," they wouldn't have needed much effort. IMHO, in Deep Impact we're told enough about the amount of time that's passed without really needing visual clues; but, of course, that "telling" may have been added to the script later on.

Or it could be another example of film makers who do go through the trouble of having things 'there' without resorting to do any telling, just as there are so many details in LOTR that viewers never notice at first, tenth, or even hundredth viewing! But when the detail is noticed, it's much appreciated. And I have to admit, considering how I never give much time of day to Deep Impact, I am surprised in a good way about the braces and the 'teeth-fix'. Thank you, achila and tg for this new additional fact to our Faculty library. ;)



Very much enjoying the posts on the current beauty topic. Brunhild, excellent plug for your Hamlet-by-PJ, which did live up to its excellence. :lol: And someday maybe I'll have read and seen enough parodies to actually make me wanna read/watch a real 'Hamlet' adaptation and finally see what Sheakespeare was really going on about.

Since I have nothing smart to say, I'll just link to some random comic strip at TORn (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/12759.jpg) :p


Also from TORn, the news that not all hope is lost when it comes to our young movie-going teens. :D


ROTK Nominated in Teen Choice Awards
6/07/04, 3:28 pm EST - weetanya

Nikki writes: ROTK has been nominated for several Teen Choice Awards. They are:

Best Movie, Drama
Best Actor in a Drama - Elijah Wood for ROTK
Best Actress in a Drama - Liv Tyler
Male Hottie - Orlando Bloom

The show airs August 11, 2004, 8pm/7c on FOX. You can vote here (but you
can only vote once): More (http://www.teenpeople.com/teenpeople/teenchoice/)

I'm really enjoying the posts today. Maeglian, your proposed research letter was hysterical! Yes, all by means, recycle/reuse! I'm sure this test could be done again and again. And your conclusion is absolutely sound, IMHO.
random eye contact endurance testing
Sign me up for this one, please! :)

It's shocking, Tg, how that Leonardo da Vinci sketch bears an amazing resemblance to Elijah! ;) However, displaying the Timeless Beauty link that quicksilver pointed out, included the following image:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/boyhobbit.jpg
Excuse me, but is this Frodo as a kid, or what? :D

Excellent detective work, Achila, on the braces. I never noticed that. However, the first time I watched DI, I didn't notice the tooth-capping either. :o I need the Faculty to show me what's what. :p

Ainon, I enjoyed the random comic. I missed that one.

Grumpy, that was a very moving post about D-Day. Not trite at all -- it brought tears to my eyes. Thanks for sharing that. :k

no time for profound thoughts. ([SIZE=1]I'm on my way to work and need to stop for panty-hose, too! :rolleyes: ) but I have to share this. It must be baby Frodo with Primula don't you think?

Thanks for the confirming "caps", tg. I had this suspicion the last time I watched it but this time, I backed the DVD up a bunch of times to make sure. Someone announced on an lj that the movie would be on TV the night before it actually was, and when I found that it wasn't on, I simply watched my DVD instead.

What I can't understand is why they'd go to so much trouble to put Elijah in braces and then not even really show them in his mouth (or why they used this device in the first place when Sarah wasn't shown looking any different from one point to the next). Let's face it, if all us elwoodian scholars missed them, then the average moviegoer sure wouldn't have noticed it either.

Achila, while your theory still remains valid, another theory to this braces idea could be that BEFORE he found the comet, he was considered the geeky, "uncool" kid (this is affirmed by the braces). But AFTER he found the comet, he was basically the most popular kid in school. And since popular kids always have straight, white teeth in Hollywood, well, there you go.

Honey, YES! You must be right. What a lovely find. ;) Is it Klimt?

Happy belated birthday, Honeyelf! Sorry I forgot to mention it yesterday -- hope you had a wonderful day!

Just wanted to swoop in here and thank tg for the awesome screencaps of "It's Gone/End of All Things" -- how utterly magnificent. These caps only further the eternal question -- why oh why wasn't this man given the Academy Award? Is there anyone else on the planet who can produce this blizzard of emotions one after the other, sometimes several at a time, even, and do it this naturally and this gut-wrenchingly (is that a word? It is now)? Every time I see one of these climactic scenes, I have to keep reminding myself -- he was only 18 years old....19 at most!

I love that cap from "It's Gone" that looks like he's flaring his nostrils -- EDITED TO ADD IT:

Gonna recite the Faculty motto now -- all say it with me -- how the heck does he DO that?!

PS -- Just saw what you posted, Hobbityme -- very possibly!

Hello dear Colleagues!

Belated Happy Birthday Honeyelf!

Wow, Achila! I had never noticed Leo's braces before, only the caps! What an eye! A true faculty scholar if ever I saw one!

Maeg, please let me know if you need help with the "beauty" research program...I know I have to get in line... :D

And tg, where on earth did you find that lost Leonardo drawing? Truly astonishing! So the likeness to Renaissance men is not by accident!

Love the glimpses of Frodo as a child, too!

Just a head's up: unconfirmed reports put Elwood in Prague right now! Filming on EII is slated to begin this weekend.

checks flight schedules...
I wish... :rolleyes:

Yes indeed, the best way to ensure it's done, and done properly, is of course to do-it-yourself!....


***Realization dawns: Oh, you meant to apply the theory to *pictures*, I suppose! Maeg scampers off, all embarrassed....:D ***[/i]

LOL! :lol:

Well I have printed off the beauty mask and intend to apply it to a suitable picture of Frolijah and/or EW ( this will entail searching intensively through my stash of Frolijah/EW pics- mainly Frolijah ones I'm afraid ) but I wont be able to post the results as I havent got a scanner! Isnt there any spare faculty funding available to help me publish this important research? ;) :D

Achillea, I'd never noticed the brace either. :cool:

Honeyelf (belated birthday wishes to you! ) and Mariole; Yes and Yes to those pictures of Young Frodo!

So EW is filming EIL eh? I'm reading the book at the moment and just love the fact that Alex calls Jonathan "the hero".
At least EW should realise he's playing the hero in this film! :D

Alright, I put on my lab coat, packed in (as a precaution :p ) my protective googles, a bottle of smelling salts... so, where is Maeglian's research project taking place? I'm ready ;) !

Quicksilver, too bad we won't see the stunning results of your beauty mask test series. We have to have a Faculty funding.

Honeyelf, Mariole, Baby Frodo is sooo cute.

Tg, I liked your discovery, the "Mona Frodo" drawing very much. It's also a great adornment on your website. :)


Excellent detective work, Achila, on the braces. I never noticed that. However, the first time I watched DI, I didn't notice the tooth-capping either.

:o Same here. And the whole tooth-correction/capping thingy doesn't make me liking DI not the slightest bit better, I'm afraid.

And, there's no way I could ever do any original art :eek: , but here's a fairly well-preserved Leonardo da Vinci sketch that was evidently hidden centuries ago in my image editor and was just discovered today :)
...promise not to laugh...but you had me going for a minute. :o For a moment, I was actually thinking "No way.... Leonardo Da Vinci actually made a sketch with..." until I noticed the elven brooch. :rolleyes: OK, I'm gullible...what can I say

Most of you have probably already seen this but:
http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040608/latu056_1.html
G4techTV Hosts Video Game Awards Broadcast Event on Saturday, July 31st
THE 2004 LINE-UP

What other awards show has honored skateboarding legend Tony Hawk; the world's most famous hobbit -- Elijah Wood; and super plumber -- Mario (of "Super Mario Bros." fame) all in the same hour? With the variety of performers and games nominated this year, G-Phoria is sure to serve up plenty of surprises.

Nominees for the 2004 G-Phoria Awards include:
....
Best Voice Performance - Male
* True Crimes: Streets of L.A. - Snoop Dogg (likeness) (Activision)
* James Bond 007: Everything or Nothing - Pierce Brosnan (likeness)
(Electronic Arts)
* The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King - Elijah Wood (likeness)
(Electronic Arts)
* Rise to Honor - Jet Li (likeness) (SCEA)
* The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King - Sean Astin (likeness)
(Electronic Arts)

Best Cinematic
* The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (Electronic Arts)
* Metal Gear Solid: The Twin Snakes (Konami)
* Drakengard (Square Enix USA)
* Final Fantasy X-2 (Square Enix USA)
* Ninja Gaiden (Tecmo)

...
G-Phoria - The Award Show 4 Gamers," will be broadcast exclusively on G4techTV on FRIDAY, AUGUST 6 at 8:00 PM ET/5:00 PM PT, with the pre-show broadcast starting at 7:30 PM ET/4:30 PM PT.


Maeglian, please tell me I'm not too late to sign up for the research project.
I used to be great at those 'look straight into each others eyes and the first to look away is the loser' contests when I was a kid. I can keep my eyes open for a long time without blinking...am willing to use that talent for this scientific research program of high importance (all in the name of science and all that...)
although, I admit...looking into those famous blue eyes might require a different technique if I'm actually going to find out what the colour of his eyes are without drowning in them

Deep Impact:
I noticed the braces at one time, but didn't notice that they were gone later in the movie. Really good research that!
DI is one of the only EJW movies I'm having trouble re-watching without skipping a lot of scenes.


Edit to add a link to a great piece of creative writing from Darkstone on the TORN message board:
I parve prastar aen...the beginnning has changed (http://www.theonering.net/rumour_mill/rpg/viewer/moviediscussion/40C632DC00054DCE.html)

Tg, your Leonardo is every bit as beautiful as any Leonardo's Leonardo :cool:. BTW, I like How to Steal a Million with Audrey Hepburn and Peter O'Toole very much ;).

... gallops in breathlessly on way back from southern Africa ... puff pant ....

from Mariole:
I never knew Christopher Plummer was small. I saw The Sound of Music 900 times, and they had masked his height so masterfully (always placing him next to petite actors) that I never knew he was short until I saw him play Sherlock Holmes (who is supposed to be unusually tall)

While whizzing through the ROTK DVD extras last night I caught sight of Éomer standing next to Aragorn (or rather Karl U. standing next to Viggo) - and K looked significantly shorter than V! Was flabbergasted. Éomer looks HUGE in the films - to me anyway (OK, I'm a small person and tend to sit on the floor to watch ....). It's partly the Herman Munster bronze shoulder pads which were clearly extremely cool amongst Rohirrim aristocracy in those days - but those lovely camera angels may have helped to draw him up to his full height.

Which brings me to this:

EII SPOILER ALERT!!!!!

ExtraFilms Prague is looking for extras for EII! They need:
people from the Ukraine or Russia (Rikka, are you listening??????)
breakdancers and electric boogie exponents (erm .... :eek: )
young men aged 13-17 who are expert skateboarders (ditto)
very small (in height) pretty girls
people who think they look like famous people (preferably Jewish, they say) such as, er, Einstein (but not Picasso!), George Washington (!), Mother Teresa, Freud etc. etc. (OK, so don't I look just a teeny bit like Marie Curie? Yes, I know she wasn't Jewish, but then neither was Mother Teresa ....)
old people with lined faces who look like typical grannies and grandpas (never thought I would want to look quite that old, but hey ....)

Now, why would they specify very small girls? :D

The breakdancers are presumably for Alex's Odessa nightclub sorties, imaginary or not. The famous people are a bit more of a mystery. I've finished the book, but can't quite visualise where they would fit in. Serious research called for here, I feel. Any findings will be reported in due course.
EDIT: the WHOLE of EII will apparently be filmed in the Czech Republic (not in the Ukraine after all).
See this link (http://www.extrafilms.cz)

Bet Leonardo would have killed to draw Frolijah. Or even Elijah.

PS Speaking of beauty, anyone see the Venus Transit yesterday?

Very small PRETTY girls?

LOL. I wonder if Elwood had some imput on that one? :k ;)

Moondancer, your link to Darkstone's hilarious post on the TORN message board slayed me. Thanks so much for posting that!

I am less happy about Elijah Wood and Sean Astin being in direct competition with each other for Best Voice Performance - Male. NO NO NO! Why can't we all be one happy family? (Of course, I am assuming that one of them will win. Perhaps I'll get lucky and the two ROTK choices will split the votes, so the Awful Choice will not get in the way of brotherly love and mutual admiration...)

Welcome back, Serena! I never noticed the Karl U. height factor. I'll have to look for that. You know, even Viggo isn't that tall -- maybe 5'10". He only looks tall because King Theoden is so much shorter. (Not that I've studied this...) :o

Alright, I put on my lab coat, packed in (as a precaution ) my protective googles, a bottle of smelling salts... so, where is Maeglian's research project taking place? I'm ready !
Whiteling, I think one of us has the wrong idea about this research. I packed my baby oil, bikini, and a comfy chair. However, the smelling salts are an excellent idea.

Quicksilver, your request for funding has been forwarded to the Need to Know Fan Base. We're all very excited about it (yes, I'm hanging out there). I have a baby scanner as yet not plugged in. I have no idea if that will help...

Posted by Whiteling:
Alright, I put on my lab coat, packed in (as a precaution ) my protective googles, a bottle of smelling salts... so, where is Maeglian's research project taking place? I'm ready !

Posted by Mariole:
Whiteling, I think one of us has the wrong idea about this research. I packed my baby oil, bikini, and a comfy chair. However, the smelling salts are an excellent idea.
:lol:
Briliant! :k

Whiteling, I think one of us has the wrong idea about this research. I packed my baby oil, bikini, and a comfy chair.



:D Hmm, you are right. I forgot to mention that I wear my bikini, as a matter of course, under the lab coat. :D


Welcome back, Serena :) ! Good to have you back.

Bet Leonardo would have killed to draw Frolijah. Or even Elijah.

:eek: I hope I can contain myself from such passionateness :eek: ;) !

PS Speaking of beauty, anyone see the Venus Transit yesterday?

I wish I could say, it was beautiful - but alas, the tiny point in front of the sun wasn't visible to the naked eye (I have bat sight, like a certain actor). Nevertheless it was very impressive. I feel blessed to live in times of milleniums, solar eclipses, lunar eclipses, planetary transites... it is a gift.

Must run, thunder-storm is on the way!

Ah! The research project is well under way! Volunteers are lining up! Scanner funding requests, scientific-looking researchers, bikini-babe researchers, and several more who've failed to specify their attire. ;) There's always room for more: Verification and research multiple viewpoints are a must in this!

***Maeg dithers a bit. Lab coat or bikini? Oh, a lab coat for me, I'm afraid. :o But.....protective goggles or dark sunglasses to hide where one's gaze is roving? Oh, decisions, decisions! :rolleyes: Well, anyway, the smelling salts are an absolute given! :D ***


Moondancer, thank you very much for that link! :)
Hilarious, and like proper and good satire, founded in truth. And yet....and yet: "For the time will soon come when Hobbits will play tickle party on the beds of the Houses of Healing. " ...Who, even among the staunchest canon defenders, can harden their hearts against scenes such as Frodo and Merry and Pippin squeeing and hugging and bouncing in the Minas Tirith reunion?!?
One trilogy to rule them all, indeed! My own personal inner purist has certainly diminished, and gone into the west for once and all never to be heard of again, or something.


Mariole, and Honey, thank you for the pictures of Frodo as a child/young adolescent! The Klimt one is from his painting "The 3 ages of woman", and I'm willing to bet Mariole's pic shows a girl/young woman, too. Their resemblance to young Frodo is a further reminder of the androgynous nature and perhaps also timeless appeal of the Frolijah look....


Interesting about the braces on young Leo's teeth in DI. I've never noticed that. I have to agree with Hobbityme, though. The passage of time is underlined very clearly and repeatedly in many other ways in the film, so I think the braces are there to signal "uncool geeky kid", while the straight white teeth signal "handsome, popular, courageous hero who wins the pretty girl". As such, quite the clichés, in line with much else in the film. I still believe whoever made that teeth caps decision for DI simply couldn't get their mind around someone being the "good-looking hero" without looking "conventionally perfect". Good, good,good thing PJ was not of the same opinion!

Speaking of DI, have anyone seen the very similar "The day after Tomorrow"? The persons and action in that one are even *more* unbelievable and one-dimensional than in DI. However, unlike in DI, the special effects *never* let up; - they're amazing and keep on coming, attacking your senses non-stop, - you don't get any time to breathe and to consider all those gigantic plotholes and impossibilities, thick as hail on the ground. Entertaining and even scary if one doesn't analyse the action, and of course it was pretty predictable what the outcome would be. Just like in DI. (Plus, Ian Holm! Yay!)

But what I was thinking about while watching, was how RotK was accused of being "all about special effects". Just compare it to "The day After Tomorrow", and the difference between RotK and something "all about special effects" shines out a hundred miles away. Great special effects in both, for sure, but only one has characters that are multi.dimensional and interesting and whom you get immensely invested in and come to love (or hate), only one has a story that you truly believe and which touches your heart *and* your mind. :)

Bet Leonardo would have killed to draw Frolijah. Or even Elijah.

People just keep giving me ideas :D. Lo, and behold:

The Man Without the Grey Flannel Robe*

A Hollywood SciFi blockbuster (in 3 reels).
Running time: 180 min.
MPAA rating: PG-30

Reel No. 1. Running time 2 min.
Elijah Wood goes CD shopping in Prague and walks into a time warp on Karlova Str.

Reel No. 2. Running time 3 min.
EW re-appears in the French town of Cloux in 1519

Leonardo da Vinci: Good gracious! What a beautiful young man! I'm going to draw his portrait!
Michelangelo: No, you are not! Stabs Leonardo.

Reel No. 3. Running time 175 min.
EW is posing for Michelangelo's David.

:haha:

* It's an obscure reference to Gregory Peck, actually. He played David in David and Bathsheba and the protagonist in The Man in the Grey Flannel Suit. This inspired someone to say that Peck's mundane David was The Man in the Grey Flannel Robe.

175 minutes of Elijah posing for the David and only a rating of PG-13 (or PG-30, as you wrote)???? How dreadfully unfair!!!!!! I would demand my money back!

Heh. That Michelangelo has always been a bit hot off the mark, IMVHO. Poor Leo. *sigh*

*would ask for money back, but I'm sitting through another back-to-back showing of MWGFR*

I must have spent an hour just staring at David in Florence -- amazing...

posted by Brunhild
Reel No. 3. Running time 175 min.
EW is posing for Michelangelo's David.
:z: :) (I love how your mind works, Brunhild)
Running time 175 min...so, how long would he have to stand there, posing in all his glory?
I'm willing to offer myself as a volunteer, because he'll need an assistant during al that hard work: bring him drink, food or whatever he needs. Massaging his ...erm...feet during the breaks.
I hope that they're not doing the Cirith Ungol thing (naked book!Frodo vs only naked torso film!Frodo). To use the words of sir Ian McKellan: I want to see a lot of that "skin of liquid marble"

When I was in Italy, we couldn't get near Michelangelo's David. :(

King Kong news!
Found this on Elijahfan.com (good site but does it really have to have so many annoying pop-ups?):
John has also e-mailed me saying that Elijah was in LA filming King Kong: Remember when Elijah said that he just "wanted to be stomped on by a foot?" Fran Walsh heard about it and wrote him in for a slightly larger part then that. I do not know what part or role he has- yet, but they are shooting now. The primary shooting of the film will be in New Zealand starting in the middle of September.


Everything is Illuminated...so, he's in Prague. He's already been spotted in a pub. I hear that Prague has excellent jazz pubs and it's a very beautiful city. He'll have a great time there! I've never been there myself but everybody I know who's been there adores the place.

warning...another whining session coming up about the late release date of ESOTSM in Belgium
ESOTSM is coming out in september in The Netherlands and in France they get to see it in october. So, they have the Dutch subtitles, they have the French subtitles and dubbing. Why on earth do we have to wait until november to see that movie?
/whining session.

Speaking of DI, have anyone seen the very similar "The day after Tomorrow"?

I saw it and thought it was really good. But since seeing Donnie Darko I'd watch anything with Jake Gyllenhaal in it, so it was always going to be on my must-see list. Plus, the fact that Dennis Quaid was there helped. AND it was the fourth movie in a row that I've seen that has somebody from LotR in it (the others being Hidalgo, ESOTSM and Troy).

The SFX were really good, but it promised a movie without somebody to come along and save the world at the last minute. For this reason I expected a really angsty film, and was disappointed that it never made me cry - not once.

Which brings me to Deep Impact. Yes, it has its faults, and I definitely don't think it has Elijah at his best, but I REALLY love this film - have done even before I was a fan of Elijah. And yes - it does make me cry. As cheesy at it can be at times, there are those moments that (after about a dozen viewings) still have the power to send me to tears. And for that reason alone, I rate is as one the best of its genre.

(PS: None of the moments that I cry at involve Elijah - says a lot probably).

...Who, even among the staunchest canon defenders, can harden their hearts against scenes such as Frodo and Merry and Pippin squeeing and hugging and bouncing in the Minas Tirith reunion?!?
I could name a few ;) -- but I'm pretty happy with it :) . As soon as the rumors started about Frodo waking up in the Houses of Healing instead of Ithilien, that seemed logical to me--saved time by getting everyone to Minas Tirith immediately, and it was almost a given that the Field of Cormallen was going to be omitted, anyway. My only fear was that it would end up being an "...and you were there..." Wizard of Oz-type scene, which I think it avoided (at least it didn't turn out that the entire story was an Iowa farmboy's hallucination after being hit on the head by a falling comet... or something). The only other comment I remember making at the time is that I'd be very disappointed if Pippin didn't jump on the bed (all in the name of character development, of course :p ).

One trilogy to rule them all, indeed! My own personal inner purist has certainly diminished, and gone into the west for once and all never to be heard of again, or something.
Mine has certainly faded since it grudgingly decided it would be "okay" to have Elanor older than she was in the book, seeing as how it was Sean's daughter and all... Now I'm even glad that Frodo got to meet his namesake before he sailed. I don't know if I can say it's gone, but it picks its disappointments carefully; just being different from the book isn't enough to upset it (but JRRT did spend over a decade writing that book, and he did have legitimate reasons for the way he wrote things, so there are some places...).

Mariole, and Honey, thank you for the pictures of Frodo as a child/young adolescent! The Klimt one is from his painting "The 3 ages of woman", and I'm willing to bet Mariole's pic shows a girl/young woman, too. Their resemblance to young Frodo is a further reminder of the androgynous nature and perhaps also timeless appeal of the Frolijah look....
The baby-Fro pic reminded me a lot of little movie-version Frodo Gamgee, too, who's played by a girl. The one thing I find missing from the "mask of beauty" pic is Elijah's asymmetry--which wouldn't be considered "classically beautiful" but which adds a lot of "character" IMHO.

Which brings me to Deep Impact. Yes, it has its faults, and I definitely don't think it has Elijah at his best, but I REALLY love this film - have done even before I was a fan of Elijah. And yes - it does make me cry. As cheesy at it can be at times, there are those moments that (after about a dozen viewings) still have the power to send me to tears. And for that reason alone, I rate is as one the best of its genre.
One of the sad things about DI, IMHO, is that the acting is so good that it's too bad the hole-y plot detracts from it. The acting's low-key, but I think that's perfectly realistic; IMHO, the power the characters have to touch us comes from the fact that they're everyday, low-key, person-next-door people who get caught up in this horrific situation and turn out to be heroes. Even in their heroics, they remain low-key (rather Tolkienian, in a way). The only ones who are, you might say, "trained" to be heroes are the astronauts, and even there we get some heartfelt low-key moments--for example, the quick glimpse of the Russian astronaut while the others are saying good-bye to their families (no one mentions the fact that he doesn't have the chance to do that, but you can see it in his face). It's also too bad that, IMVHO, it's Elijah's storyline that ends up with the biggest plot holes.

DI's direct competition was Armageddon, another comet-hurtling-toward-the-earth movie [Edit: Oops, just checked--in Armageddon it was an asteroid] that was released at almost the same time. I've only seen bits of it (while changing the channel :rolleyes: ), but from all accounts it's much more centered on special effects and "typical" Hollywood-style heroics than DI is. Liv Tyler's in it, but not in a huge part--Bruce Willis is the star, as "the" astronaut who's going to save the world, which says something right there about how differently the two movies look at heroism. The astronomer at http://www.badastronomy.com also gives DI higher marks for scientific realism than he does Armageddon. DI does make some mistakes, which he points out (most of all, making the catastrophy much less catastrophic than it really would have been), but it doesn't disregard the facts nearly as blatantly as Armageddon does.

For my sins, I saw Armageddon and it was just plain awful. Bruce Willis wasn't even an astronaut, but an oil miner (IIRC) - they thought that was the best occupation to save the world!!

You're right - TG - about why Deep Impact has the greater emotional impact. I hadn't thought about it that way, but it really does make sense - the fact that the story is just about every-day people that you can relate with.

:z: :)
Everything is Illuminated...so, he's in Prague. He's already been spotted in a pub. :lol:

That's Our Lad! Right down to business!

Good news about KK too - I may even have to see it.

~grumpy (I love dedication in young men) ;)

Here are the lead-ins to badastronomy.com's reviews of Armageddon and Deep Impact. Of course, the reviewer's main interest is the science, not the acting, cinematography, etc., which is the only reason I can forgive him for his one big mistake--not liking Leo :eek: !

The Astronomy of Armageddon
Note added September 6, 2001: This movie came out three years ago, but hardly a day goes by without someone emailing me about something I missed. I can't catch everything, of course, and in this movie bad stuff happened so quickly I couldn't keep up! So let me say here that I appreciate the comments, but to verify what people tell me I would have to watch the movie again, and I would rather stare at the Sun through Hubble than sit through this vile flick one more time. So again thanks for the input, but at this point I will consider this review done, if not complete. ;-) ]

Here's the short version: "Armageddon" got some astronomy right. For example, there is an asteroid in the movie, and asteroids do indeed exist. And then there was... um... well, you know... um. Okay, so that was about all they got right. Now I know that accuracy was not the main point of the movie, and clearly from the way the plot played out, realism was the last thing on the minds of the writers.


The Astronomy of Deep Impact
The producers of DI had an ambitious plan: actually collect a team of scientists and ask them about the scientific plausibility of the movie. This has been done before (as I mentioned in my page about the movie "Asteroid"', NBC claims to have used consultants; I assume they simply ignored everything the scientists said), but this time, it appears that the producers listened. At least for the most part; there were plenty of small errors (many of which I will happily attribute to "artistic license", see below), and one mighty big one, but a lot of the movie was accurate. I get the impression that the producers of DI wanted to make an accurate movie, and used the consultant's info as much as they could, but I also get the impression they had a certain plot in mind and would not change parts of it no matter how inaccurate they were.


Here are the endings of the reviews (the stuff in-between is all about specific scientific issues--interesting if you're so inclined, but I won't post it). The Armageddon review has some nice things to say about DI:

On Armageddon
Sigh. My personal opinion of the movie science was of course low, lower than even I thought before seeing it. But I also thought the plot was vapid, the direction awful (it was like an extended car commercial, someone pointed out) and had so many ridiculous things in it that I had a hard time enjoying the fun of it. It was fun, but even that was hampered by the sheer over-the-topness of it. I never once had the feeling that the Earth would be destroyed, so all the drama of the impending doom was gone. In "Deep Impact", after the first half of the movie, you never once forgot what was going on; the sense of doom was palpable, so much so that my heart was pounding during the impact sequence. In "Armageddon", the drama never existed. One of the most important aspects of a film, especially a science fiction, is the suspension of disbelief. Once you get that "Oh, come on" feeling, I disengage myself from the movie a bit, and the fun drops. I was disappointed by this movie, and not just because of the scientific ludicrousness.


On Deep Impact
That's it (for now). I'll reiterate that I liked the movie (my wife did too). I thought the critics were too harsh when they said the subplots were boring (though I could have done with less about Leo), and the rest of the movie was fine. Moments before the first impact, I wanted to stick my head between my knees and hyperventilate; that drama was very thick, and I have very vivid nightmares about big impacts. Yegads, that sequence was amazing! Anyway, by the time most of you read this the movie will have gone from the theaters, and it will not look nearly as good on television if you rent it. Still, all in all it was a good flick, and worth watching.

Hi everyone! I'm here only for a moment :( - just to say I'm still exist. :) I'm so busy in the RL, that have no opportunity even to read The Faculty regularly.

Happy birthday to all, whose BD I missed.

Since my previous post I had a chance to bridge one more gap of mine in the EW studies. ;) I saw Oliver Twist and must say that Artful Dodger and Fagin are the only "alive" characters in this primitive and poor adaptation of Dickens. This is very funny and absurd, but you start to sympathize Dodger much more than Oliver!

Many kisses to all you, ladies. :k Hope to come back here again at the end of the month...

Reel No. 1. Running time 2 min.
Elijah Wood goes CD shopping in Prague and walks into a time warp on Karlova Str.

Reel No. 2. Running time 3 min.
EW re-appears in the French town of Cloux in 1519

Leonardo da Vinci: Good gracious! What a beautiful young man! I'm going to draw his portrait!
Michelangelo: No, you are not! Stabs Leonardo.

Reel No. 3. Running time 175 min.
EW is posing for Michelangelo's David.


Brunhild, aren't you the witty one! :D :D

But your scarin' me just a bit here. ;) At one point da Vinci was (annonymously) accused of a homosexual affair with one of his models. And it is widely speculated that Michelangelo was probably a homosexual as well, though heavily closeted, in denial or both. Look at his women; they look like men without ...parts...and with boobs slapped on. That movie of yours could end up being quite the 'eye opener!'

I saw "Day After Tomorrow." It was quite silly. The ICE chase scene was a particular "favorite" of mine! :lol: And I still say Jake Guyenhaal is waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too old to play a high-schooler. (Unless being held back several grades accounts for his academic brilliance!)

thank you for the pictures of Frodo as a child/young adolescent! The Klimt one is from his painting "The 3 ages of woman", and I'm willing to bet Mariole's pic shows a girl/young woman, too. Their resemblance to young Frodo is a further reminder of the androgynous nature and perhaps also timeless appeal of the Frolijah look....

I think the Frodo Wig went a long way to create this seeming androgeny. If you look at Elijah you see a very masculine looking, albeit exceedingly beautiful young man. His brows are very pronouncedly male.

Early on in my Frolijah-obsession, I wondered aloud at one point just what it was that made Elijah so magical as Frodo. Someone said that he was 'packaged' by the media market to appeal to young girls through his androgeny. I thought this sold both EW and me short! He is very masculine, only playing a character that is more passive than our hormone saturated culture usually sees as purely 'male.' She also didn't account for his amazing talent, and acting ability. (But then she's a Dom fan, so what can I say?)

And I am way not a young girl. In fact I'm even less qualified that Jake Guyenhaal to play a high-schooler! ;)

Honey!

I think the Frodo Wig went a long way to create this seeming androgeny. If you look at Elijah you see a very masculine looking, albeit exceedingly beautiful young man. His brows are very pronouncedly male.

Not to mention the rest of him -- sternocleidomastoid fans especially take note. And honey, I'm sure a lot of it *is* the wig, although we can't discount the fact that he was 18/19 when the films were made and he was just on the cusp of adult manhood. His face still had a bit of baby softness that it doesn't have now, which was only accentuated by the wig.

The thing that people tend to forget is that it's been 4 years since the movies were shot, and the Elijah they see physically as Frodo isn't the Elijah they see on Conan or Leno or wherever today. There are moments, in fact, where it's almost a disconnect to see a 23-year old Elijah stand next to an 18-year old portrait of himself as Frodo, as he did many times during the press junkets.


EDITED TO ADD THIS PIC - - this' a new Topps Trading Card and based on the shape of his face, I'd say this was probably shot last summer during ROTK pickups. Notice how different he now looks as Frodo, as opposed to, say, the "money shot" we all know and love from the beginning of Fellowship...

Woot! About Elijah getting written into King Kong! Go Fran! I know she loves that boy and so does PJ. I didn't think they could work without him. Let's hope they keep him as part of their regular ensemble for all up coming projects. :z:

Now for the sequal to....
The Man Without the Grey Flannel Robe*


Reel No. 1. Running time 2 min.
Elijah Wood goes CD shopping in Prague and walks into a time warp on Karlova Str.

Reel No. 2. Running time 3 min.
EW re-appears in the French town of Cloux in 1519

Leonardo da Vinci: Good gracious! What a beautiful young man! I'm going to draw his portrait!
Michelangelo: No, you are not! Stabs Leonardo.

Reel No. 3. Running time 175 min.
EW is posing for Michelangelo's David.

The Man Without the Grey Flannel Robe or Pearl Earring

Vermeer drops into Michelangelo's studio. He spots EW posing for David and, rather than the usual feature, something else attracts his artist's eye. He MUST paint EW's exquisite face. And that face doesn't need an earring or anything!

Vermeer poisons Michelangelo's wine then tosses large canvas over the embarrassed EW and carts him off to his house in the Netherlands. It is awkward lugging EW secretly past Vermeer's nosy wife and many children and that maid who likes to be featured in his paintings. But somehow Vermeer manages this.

EW tries to get away but is encouraged to remain by being offered much fine Dutch chocolate and viewings of Vermeer's now unknown secret 'special paintings'. EW allows Vermeer to paint the famous 'Boy With the Blue Eyes' before the time warp catches up with him and zaps him back to modern day Prague.

Author's Note- There is, of course, no actual painting called The Boy with the Blue Eyes. But there would have been if Vermeer had seen Elijah! :D

The thing that people tend to forget is that it's been 4 years since the movies were shot, and the Elijah they see physically as Frodo isn't the Elijah they see on Conan or Leno or wherever today. There are moments, in fact, where it's almost a disconnect to see a 23-year old Elijah stand next to an 18-year old portrait of himself as Frodo, as he did many times during the press junkets.
This is one reason (among others) that I'm very, very glad NewLine made it possible to do all three movies as one project, instead of making FotR and then "seeing how it did" before deciding whether to make the two "sequels." Except for those four post-quest years, the action takes place within a year. IMHO even with the more compressed shooting schedule, it's possible to see times when Elijah is more mature than at others. One comparison that's easy to make because the scenes are shown so close to each other is his final pick-up shot of "There's room for a little more," and the scenes in the cart and at the havens with Bilbo, which were shot early on. Because he does look different from various angles, etc., I don't know if I would have guessed the age difference even there without knowing it from other sources--but I think the "grace period" had about run its course by the time that last pick-up was shot ;) .

JKR has used an interesting "device" in starting each HP book at the beginning of a new school year. I don't know if she had movies in mind when she decided to write them that way, but it does make it very natural to have the actors age along with the characters. LotR doesn't provide that luxury :) .

EE, and Rikka, very glad to see you here again! And you too, Hobmom. :)


Well, the androgyny (sp?) thing, I *was* specifically commenting on Frolijah, - not Elijah. There obviously *is* the difference that both age and wig creates.


Early on in my Frolijah-obsession, I wondered aloud at one point just what it was that made Elijah so magical as Frodo. Someone said that he was 'packaged' by the media market to appeal to young girls through his androgeny. Oh, I completely agree this sold both Elijah and you and everyone here and everyone anywhere who appreciates good acting short! Seriously, the media packaging thing really sounds like an "after the fact and scrambling-to-catch-up" kind of explanation. The media and marketers anticipated LotR to be appreciated mainly by young males, didn't they; - and it took some time before they realized what they were facing, - I seriously doubt they saw the female audience reaction to Elijah coming and packaged him as a "product" pre-fotR in that regard..... I don't think they anticipated it for Orlando Bloom either, till the first film was out and they were stunned by what had hit them. :D

I think the innocent, youthful, androgynous look was specifically what PJ was after to emphazise his vision of Frodo and what Frodo represents - that's a better explanation for the Frolijah look, IMO, than media packaging. (Plus, who'd even like to *consider* the idea that we've only bought into so much well-aimed and strategically packaged media hype? :eek: :p )


Oh, all these posts about time travel and art is making me wish for more! After finishing the visits with DaVinci, Michelangelo and Vermeer I think I'd have liked him to stop by J. W. Waterhouse or several of the Pre-Raphaelites, to pose for a painting or two on his way back to modern times.


I've seen "Armageddon" too. It was a great film. I laughed like crazy for nearly two hours straight. What's that;.....it *wasn't* a comedy?!? Uh-oh... :o

Well, the androgyny (sp?) thing, I *was* specifically commenting on Frolijah, - not Elijah. There obviously *is* the difference that both age and wig creates.

Hmmm....You're right. I guess sometimes I tend to get a little confused where the "Fro-" ends and the "-lijah" begins! :D

Editted to add: Quicksilver, I appreciate you toiling so selflessly over the beauty mask project. I'm just wondering if you need the aid of a scanner at all. Surely somewhere on the 'net you might be able to find one picture of the pitialbly charisma-deficient :rolleyes: :p subject. You could then complete the required research in Photoshop, or some other such program???

Honey!

Remember, if the movie has Ben Afflek in it, it's a COMEDY not an ACTION film.

Quicksilver, I appreciate you toiling so selflessly over the beauty mask project. I'm just wondering if you need the aid of a scanner at all. Surely somewhere on the 'net you might be able to find one picture of the pitialbly charisma-deficient subject. You could then complete the required research in Photoshop, or some other such program???

Oh, finding the pictures online are no problem. ;) Its the superimposing of the mask over the picture that I need the scanner for. (The website suggests copying the mask onto acetate and placing it over the picture, then I'd need the scanner to post the result ) I am severely un-skilled in the use of Photoshop-type programmes. How do I get the mask to be transparent?

'sides, I've always wanted a scanner. :p

Edited to add this link to an interview with EW about ESOTSM (http://romanticmovies.about.com/cs/eternalsunshine/a/etsmew030904.htm). I dont think its been posted before (too many posts to check through :o ) and at least it makes this post more on topic!

Happy Birthday, Wood :) ! Have a great day!

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Mikey_Senator.jpg
"Room service, Madam! Your birthday champagne."




Oh, all these posts about time travel and art is making me wish for more! After finishing the visits with DaVinci, Michelangelo and Vermeer I think I'd have liked him to stop by J. W. Waterhouse or several of the Pre-Raphaelites, to pose for a painting or two on his way back to modern times.


Maeg, I bet he did stop by Edward Burne Jones... :)

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Jones_RockofDoom.jpg

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/jones_greeting.jpg Well, this one is certainly Harem material ;) !

Quicksilver, hopefully my more Photoshop savvy colleagues can help you with the beauty mask! And thanks for the ESOTSM link :) !

Grattis, Wood! Hoppas du får en fin födelsedag!


Also very best wishes for a fine birthday to Voronwe! :)


Oh, yes, Whiteling, I agree! I *should* have mentioned Burne-Jones, he's one of my most beloved painters. Several of the Perseus series and many others are extremely Frolijah-like in look and mood and atmosphere and well, -beauty.


Best wishes for a nice weekend to all! :k

Happy Birthday, Wood
:)

I hope it's a fine day for you.

In the attachment (if the link succeeds :z: ) is a little gift (continuing with the Michelangelo theme).

Edit: Dougie Browsers updated his site http://www.brimson.net/
Just one quote from it:
The Yank isn't aimed at Europe, it's aimed at the US and here things may not be quite so clear cut. For the average American has little or no knowledge of either hooliganism or the culture surrounding it and with sport being such an integral part of the nations psyche -and 'soccer' in particular being a growth area - a film which portrays this much darker yet easily accessible side to the game could have a real and potentially serious impact. A fact numerous journalists and sports fans in the US are waking up to judging by the number of mails I receive asking me about it.

Happy Birthday Wood!

Sorry for the below. Best I could come up with on short notice, and I just couldn't resist! :D

Honey!

Happy Birthday, WOOD! :k
My best wishes to you.

Have a great time, dear! Be safe. Don't party too hearty. :p

Happy Birthday, Wood!

Hope your celebrating is safer than theirs :p :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/jawline3.jpg

Birthday Wishes to Voronwe, too!

Lets me bring out the cake I save for double birthday celebrations :) :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/cropcap334.jpg

quicksilver, I've seen some of those ESOTSM quotes, but I don't think I'd seen the whole interview--thanks for the link. So, Elijah came up with the same conclusion we did regarding the lack of acting noms: everyone "became" their characters just too well! But I can see how the great ensemble acting would come from that. Elijah said when he saw Sir Ian as Gandalf, he just saw Gandalf. It would make it much easier to "channel" Frodo if you felt you were actually talking to Gandalf, wouldn't it :) (and vice versa ;) )?

Moondancer, I'd always had a bit of difficulty seeing Elijah in Michelangelo's work, but those pairs of pics make it all much clearer to me :p .

--------

For some reason I've been thinking lately about the Dr. Who episode where the bad guy travels back in time and forces da Vinci to paint multiple copies of the Mona Lisa, so he can sell them centuries later and make a fortune (the idea being that if someone bought "the" Mona Lisa--after the bad guy steals the original--he wouldn't tell anyone about it). I have no idea how to tie this in to CD shopping in Prague, but the different scenarios always bring my mind back to it :p .

Grattis på födelsedagen, Wood!

and

Happy Birthday, Voronwe!

Hey, Wood! Happy whatever it was Brunhild and Maeg said! :D

And Happy Birthday to Voronwe!

Oh it is quite lovely to see all the ways past artists anticipated EJW! Love the screenplay, too.

Will be ducking out for a couple of weeks, dear colleagues. Keep up the good "research!"

And just to plant the idea: you all *did* read about the Howard Shore extravaganza coming to Chicago? Any interest in a Faculty Meeting to coincide with it?

Just asking!

And just to plant the idea: you all *did* read about the Howard Shore extravaganza coming to Chicago? Any interest in a Faculty Meeting to coincide with it?

Just asking!
I saw the thread about Seattle, but when is he coming to Chicago? :confused:

Just popping in to wish Wood and Voronwe the happiest hobbit birthday ever -- much love on your special day!

PS -- Like with our concert here in Philadelphia, Howard won't be conducting the Chicago concert (and it was announced originally that he was going to here -- :( ) I know it probably shouldn't make any difference to me, but it does somehow. Oh well.

I did find the dates for Chicago -- October 8,9. Sponsored by something called "JAM Theatricals," but I don't see an orchestra mentioned. (But ticketmaster has only October 9 listed, so I'm not sure what's what.)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WOOD!

Sorry it's a day late, but I hope you had a lovely time. :k

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Wood.jpg

And the same to Voronwe!

Happy Birthday Voronwe!
I'm sorry I missed it! Well it appears the mad little fellow in Wood's B-day greeting didn't. Look! He brought TWO cupcakes!
(thougharguablytheremaybeasmanyasthreecupcakesinthatpictureifyoucountthemadlittlefellowhimself! ;) )

Hugs,
Honey!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WOOD AND VORONWE (however late this is, hope you both had a wonderful day!)

Just about to disappear again for a couple of weeks, so there's just time to say ....

Brunhild !!!!! ROFL :D :k
Your screenplay is a page or two back, but I giggled for hours over it. Had thought of writing a 4th episode in which Leonardo gets up, kills Michelangelo, makes a quick plaster cast of Delijah, escapes with it down a wormhole into late 20th century Wellington, quickly resculpts the face to look even more beautiful - er, I mean Elwoodian, puts a Frodo wig and hobbit clothes on it and turns it into a sepia drawing on parchment which he leaves lying around for PJ to find in spring 1999 (Elijah misses all this, having fallen asleep halfway through Film 3, but Leo has memorised his features while playing dead). (Later Leo is reincarnated as Alan Lee, but that's for Film 5.)

But Hobmom got there first ! ROFL :D . Welcome back, Hobmom, Rikka, EE and anyone else I've forgotten.

Moondancer, thanks for the Delijah comparison pics! :k
Yep, Elijah is definitely better looking, however awesome David is. The fact that Michelangelo apparently sculpted him (D) without a plan, simply chiselling him out of the slab as if he'd been there all along, is almost beyond belief.

Blossom, that collage you made for Wood is beautiful.

Here's a tiny little snippet about Jonathan SF and Elijah from here (http://www.sefersafari.com/ofrah.html) :
OFRAH'S APRIL 2004 SELECTION
So ... nu... did you hear? Liev Schreiber, who optioned the film rights to EVERYTHING IS ILLUMINATED by Jonathan Safran Foer, will direct the film project of this book.. And who will play the hero? Who will play Master Foer? None other than that hobbit, Elijah Wood. He makes for a good Princeton Jew, no? The Warner Independent Pictures movie starts shooting June 14, 2004, in Prague.
Hey Liev, Elijah, and Jonathan... I'll meet you in that bar near the Altneuschul. First round is on me. I'm even willing to overlook that you smoke your cigarettes from between your 2nd and 3rd finger. Maybe I can play the dog?
By the way.. did you hear that Mel Gibson is thinking of making his next film about The Maccabees? The rabbis played down the battles and played up the miracles... maybe Mel will do the reverse.


Apparently the film rights for JSF's next novel (as yet unfinished) have already been bought ...
EDIT: here is the quote (haven't got the source):
He's an inventor, Francophile, pacifist, percussionist, jeweler, actor, detective, vegan, coin and coral collector, and romantic. He's also 9, and his dad died on 9/11. He's Oskar, the hero of the as-yet-untitled new novel (due next spring) by Jonathan Safran Foer, whose 2002 debut Everything Is Illuminated was a breakout hit. Book-friendly producer Scott Rudin (The Hours) has already snapped up the movie rights. Foer was taken aback. "The book is stylistically rather avant-garde." he says, "which makes the movie interest so surprising." Filing for Liev Schreiber's version of Illuminated (in which "Jonathan Safran Foer" is the main character) starts June 14. "Yes," Foer says, "Elijah Wood is playing me."
Oskar is a bit young for Elijah to play, sad to say. Talking of Oskars, did "Illuminated" remind anyone else of Günter Grass?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO WOOD, VERONWE & ANYONE ELSE I MAY HAVE MISSED!!

Sorry I'm late but by way of apology I send this:

http://www.ezshots.com/members/shireling/images/shireling-69.jpg

Am I forgiven? Sorry if it comes out overlarge, I haven't quite got the hang of sizing yet, but you really can't have too much of Elijah, can you? :D

Sorry I've been rather lax with posting lately, I'm always here reading but usually by the time my poor addled brain has formulated what it thinks is a good reply, someone else has already said it. :o

Uch, how sad to be so ugly....those weird big eyes...those distinctly unpretty lips, nose, chin, cheekbones....Poor boy.....

Unpretty? He sure is!

He also seems to be equal parts Alpha Male Handsomness, sort of like an offbeat version of the blend of goodness that Charleton Heston is.

Just about to disappear again for a couple of weeks...
...not to Prague, perchance :p ?


Elijah's getting quite Ivy League, isn't he? Harvard in The Yank, then Princeton in EII. Wonder if there's a good Yale script out there somewhere. :)

-------

I'm thoroughly enjoying the art and literature discussion, but just ran across something from a part of the curriculum I actually know a little something about :p . One of the problems with writing science fiction these days is that it doesn't stay fiction very long. Ready for a real-life ESOTSM experience? But this one would involve drugs.
By Kathy A Svitil in Discover magazine:

There is comfort in trusting the immutability of memory--that a favorite birthday or a baby's first laugh are unalterably imprinted in our brains. In truth, says neurobiologist Kerrie Thomas of the University of Cardiff in Wales, the mere act of recalling an event opens it up to manipulation and reinterpretation.

Thomas is experimenting on rats, injecting the animals with bits of genetic material that block the proteins needed to form new memories and to store established ones after they are recalled. She then exposed the rats to events designed to teach them to fear a previously safe place (where they would now receive a mild electric shock). Interfering with a protein called BDNF prevented the rats from remembering which locations produced the unpleasant effect. Inhibiting a second protein called Zif268 had a stranger, more subtle result: Rats were initially able to learn and remember the places to avoid but then suffered from amnesia. Without Zif268, the fear memory could not be saved again.

The implication is that putting a recalled memory back into storage involves a different chemical pathway than does forging the original memory. Dual memory pathways may help the brain increase its total computational power while incorporating new information with existing data in meaningful ways. The split also means it might be possible to interfere with specific memories without damaging all the others. Drugs that block Zif268 or related proteins could potentially suppress post-traumatic stress disorder, phobias, and drug addiction, in which persistent memories lead to damaging behavior, Thomas says.
This has even more potential than the process the doctor has invented in ESOTSM, because it's not limited to forgetting people and relationships. But the movie's method of having the subject look at all the items that bring up memories of the person to be forgotten would still work; it could just be used for a broader range of problems. For example, Patrick could forget whatever traumatic event(s) he experienced that led him to be unable to relate to people in normal ways ;) .

What I'm still trying to get my mind around here is the idea of taking a memory out of storage and putting it back again. I've always thought of memories as being similar to a picture on a wall--we can look at it, even study it, but it stays in one location. Seems they're more like a book that we take off the shelf to read and then have to put away again in order to find it later.

--Carry on :p --

Oh Dear...late as usual !!!
A BELATED HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO YOU BOTH, WOOD AND VERONWE !!!

Sorry for being late...


TgShaw,
Seems they're more like a book that we take off the shelf to read and then have to put away again in order to find it later.

Yes, that's a better analogy than the picture-on-a-wall thing...I've always thought of your memories, and indeed, the brain itself, as functioning rather like a computer, with files that you can select at will and put away at will for later perusal...so it seems that they are developing the delete function !!! :D

This is such a scary scenario, imo, from the point of view of people being able to delete at will, as in ESOTSM, that this may be one of those procedures that only gets carried out in certain medical cases, and even then, only under very strict conditions, eg : erasing deeply hidden memories that make you behave in a socially dangerous way, like raping or killing...

I've been loving very much all the beautiful Art, and who'd have thought that Frodo could have got around to sitting for so many artists down the ages ? :D...I especially like the Gustav Klimt "Baby Fro" pic, and the two Edward Burne-Jones paintings, particularly the Harem-like picture, which I will never look at in the same way ever again ;) :rolleyes: :k
Personally, I think that the movie-version of Frodo, as portrayed by Our Dear Lij of course, will colour the artists' vision of Hobbits generally, for forever more, when it comes to illustrating LOTR in future editions...

For instance, this is how he was portrayed, more often than not, ( and Bilbo too ) before the movies came out :-

http://www.nightrunner.com/gallery/tolkien/Angus%20McBride/Sketches/Frodo.gif

HE would have set hearts fluttering, now wouldn't he ? !!!
:lol:

I have been three pages behind on this thread since I was gone over Memorial Day weekend. Catching up has been great fun - the conversation lately has been terrific! Blossom's gifs, Brunhild's comedy bits, Maeg's resurrected beauty study, and more! :cool:

If you'll indulge me, I'd like to leave some birthday cakes.

Belated Happy Brithday, Blossom!

http://www.mountainmagiccatering.com/images/tieredcake.jpg

Belated Happy Birthday, honeyelf!
http://www.cakeaters.com/images/cake_s_bee.jpg

Belated Happy Birthday, wood!
http://www.ascater.com/images/maincake.jpg

I left Voronwe a cake in the Cathedral. Along with some Dante Rossetti paintings. :)

I've always thought of memories as being similar to a picture on a wall--we can look at it, even study it, but it stays in one location.

There's this huge debate over what's called "recovered memory therapy", because it can be shown that psychiatrists (and presumably others) can change people's memories after the fact, and sometimes create memories entirely. There've been some notorious child abuse cases where the evidence is that the children were *not* abused in the day care situation - but since the kids "remember" these events, they're dealing with ptsd anyhow. In essence, the abusers were the psychiatrists and social workers who put these ideas into the kids heads.

So one current theory is that memory is - or can be - pretty fluid, and that people dealing with someone's childhood memories or memories of a possibly upsetting event need to exercise care so they don't influence their patient into "remembering" things that are worse than what actually happened. One theory is that, in encouraged, some people will create memories to "explain" their own strong emotional response to their past experiences, in effect dramatizing how they felt by focusing ongoing poor relationship events that were more minor and harder to explain and making the person's response more culturally acceptable.

For instance, if someone had a father who intimidated them on a regular basis and (in their own minds) forced them to do things they disliked and humiliated them, they might dramatize this by "remembering" the father as sexually assaulting them. It's tough as an adult to point out and explain all the minor ways a parent can bully a sensitive child, which makes it tough for some people to cut contact with someone who has always brought them pain, but it's easy to cut contact if you "remember" your father physically assaulting you.

The feeling is the same, in one sense - the child experienced the parent as a bully who destroyed and ignored important boundaries - but the area has been switched from emotional to physical. Mind you, the counselors who believe in the recovered memories hotly deny this possibility - but so many of the recovered memories involve huge conspiracies and events in the past that can be researched (murders, dissappearing children) but can't be shown to have happened that the odds are strongly against some of these memories being real. The trick is, knowing which "recovered" memories actually happened, and which were introduced by the counselor or created by the person being counseled.

In the day care situation I'm remembering, the counseling sessions were often taped, so it can be shown that the counselors introduced some of the ideas. There've also been studies done with children where someone will come in to the room and do something, then the teacher will discuss the event afterwards with the children, deliberately trying to change their memory of the event - teacher insists that the stranger was dressed in a way he really wasn't, or smashed something when he didn't - and a fair number of kids will accept the teacher's view of reality.

Reading these studies unnerves me, because of course I am convinced that my memories are the true version of the event in question. :p

Sheryl

Lady Wendy, I'm really curious about the link, but it says "down for a few days". Hmmm. Maybe your advertising it overloaded it or something.


Sheryl, wow - those cakes you keep coming up with are incredible! What's that on Wood's cake; - is it bears?


Yeah, I've read about false childhood trauma memories and I'm of two minds. On the one hand, it seems likely from various multiple child abuse cases where the story gets more and more far-fetched and incredible, that the children were impacting each other (or were being impacted by therapists or worried family members) into creating severe abuse memories. Plus, there are cases where physical evidence come to light to prove they can't possibly remember what they say they do because the physical reality (colors, placement of doors etc) was different. On the other hand, it seems like very dangerous ground to dismiss the abuse memories as invented and thereby contributing to even more hurt, the hurt of not being believed, for a person with terrible memories.

I remember seeing a program on TV about a study of memory - where various groups of people were gathered together ostensibly to participate in a traffic safety program or something;- and then witnessed a staged bank robbery. When afterwards being interviewed about what they'd seen, they remembered very little with accuracy, and much of what they remembered was incorrect. Plus, the memories got more vivid (and wrong) over time - after a while several of them were convinced the robber had been toting a large gun, which he really hadn't....


Edit: Hey, how could I get into a discussion of the accuracy of memories, and the possibility of deliberately created and false memories, without mentioning "Bumblebee"? My EJW-credentials are crumbling, apparently! Not good! :eek:

***Goes and stands in the corner***

Maeglian,
Lady Wendy, I'm really curious about the link, but it says "down for a few days". Hmmm. Maybe your advertising it overloaded it or something.

Well, I don't know why it doesn't work for you :confused:...it works perfectly for me :D...I even tried editing it, so that I can actually show the picture itself, but it doesn't make any difference...all I can do, apparently, is to post a link...does anyone else have this trouble with Image links ?

I'm getting the same 'down for a few days' message, lady wendy

We’re playing with live ammunition here, ladies.

There's this huge debate over what's called "recovered memory therapy", because it can be shown that psychiatrists (and presumably others) can change people's memories after the fact, and sometimes create memories entirely.

Unlikely. Enough holes have been blown in that research that there’s severe doubt about it.


There've been some notorious child abuse cases where the evidence is that the children were *not* abused in the day care situation - but since the kids "remember" these events, they're dealing with ptsd anyhow. In essence, the abusers were the psychiatrists and social workers who put these ideas into the kids heads.

In the one I’m thinking of, the therapist questioning the children acted in a really unethical manner, and essentially questioned and coerced the children until some said what they thought she wanted them to. But there were children with physical symptoms such as tears in sensiitive tissues, and a tunnel (filled in) was eventually found, complete with some of the implements described.

So one current theory is that memory is - or can be - pretty fluid, and that people dealing with someone's childhood memories or memories of a possibly upsetting event need to exercise care so they don't influence their patient into "remembering" things that are worse than what actually happened. One theory is that, in encouraged, some people will create memories to "explain" their own strong emotional response to their past experiences, in effect dramatizing how they felt by focusing ongoing poor relationship events that were more minor and harder to explain and making the person's response more culturally acceptable.

Memory isn’t like a videotape, and just as we all see something a bit different in the LotR movies, every person has his own perspective on an event. In addition, it’s been shown (darn – I’ll have to dig around for references) that people can and do repress unbearable memories.

There are lots of studies on both sides, with probably more scientific stuff on the side that explodes the “false memory syndrome” claims. The media, in its wild search to fill up way too many hours in a day on way too many cable channels, slants its documentaries however it wants. For example, one documentary on PBS (can’t remember the name offhand) claimed that recovered memories can’t be corroborated. Her reply to complaints about her sloppy reporting was that it’s not her job to look up corroborated cases. :eek: I think it was after that documentary that an organization called the “Recovered Memory Project” was founded, concentrating on collecting reports of corroborated cases. (yes, iI found their site. Their website talks about it; the documentary in question was done by Ofra Bikel).

For the record, there is no such medical or psychological diagnosis called “False Memory Syndrome”. The term was created by the founders of that foundation, and alarmingly, it has been picked up by the media and used as if it’s valid. People who actually believe what they see on TV are then using it as if it’s a real dx.

Concering the founders of that foundation, the founder’s own brother corroborates the daughter’s story. The daughter is not some dingbat, she’s a university professor who specializes in study of memory. I beileve she’s managed to recover her reputation among her peers, for the most part, after her parents complained to the university about her. One of the defenses is that the accused are such nice-looking people, they couldn't have done it. You might want to do a search on the name of one of the founders, Ralph Underwager, and see what interview he gave to what publication.

It seems to me that we’re throwing the proverbial baby out with the proverbial bathwater. Some people lie, or make things up under duress. But an awful lot of people don’t. It would be lovely to believe that the unthinkable doesn’t happen, but it does. On top of that, the abused, who are often struggling just to function, are not only dismissed when they remember stuff, but their families, who sometimes are, in contrast, well-off, further intimidate them by threatening the therapists with lawsuits and picket lines, making it impossible for the person to get treatment. So essentially, the abusee gets screwed all over again. I think there’s also a big gender issue here, in that women who recover memories are often dismissed wholesale. Freud, bless his little cocaine-using heart, had women recover memories in the course of treatment, and though he initially believed them, was pressured into changing his views, and decided that they were wishful fantasies.

Personally, I believe that people who recover horrific memories shouldn't try to get justice. There is no such thing.

::: looking around guitily ::::

Elijah’s performance of Frodo! OK!

Frodo had a number of flashbacks during the course of the movie – one in the dead marshes. He could not have possibly had the memory as shown, because it showed him, and being inside himself, he could not have seen it that way.

In addition, Pippen’s memory at Minas Tirith of the attack on Frodo was pure fabrication, because he did not see the attack in that manner. Frodo was invisible at the time, and Pippen could not have seen the Witch King as Frodo did. ;)
~grumpy (If you remove this one, please remove the other two also in the interest of balance)

oops--we are getting into controversial territory when addressing recovered memories. I personally have very strong feelings in the area--the 90's were like witch hunting, in my opinion. And in those days the American Psychiatry Association supported the theory recovered memory--and yet has reversed itself now. NOw it acknowledges all of the damage done by therapists suggesting memories to their patients. Though there are tons of cases of real abuse, they got overshadowed so much by the wave of hysteria of people who had no idea they were abused until they went to a therapist who (because it was all the rage) convinced them that they were. It was all the rage and I saw enough of it first hand--and saw enough families destroyed by suddenly recovered memories of abuse, when there was no indication of problems before. I know first hand people told that if they couldn't remember abuse, then imagine it until they do. And the "memories "they generated after doing these imagination excersizes included UFO's and baby eating (though no dead babies were ever reported lost). Totally supported by media, courts, and the psychiatrists of America. Though not so, now. Elizabeth Loftus at the University of Washington did a lot towards debunking much of the recovered memory theories. There was nothing to prove these memories were accurate--and often much to suggest they couldn't be true. Sorry--but I could go on for hours about this as I was involved in testifying a case and did lots of research. I do know something of the scientific method and do have a degree in psychology, and was embarressed by the lack of methodology in deciding these theories. So many lives ruined...while victims of real abuse got lost in the gigantic popular wave of people saying "me too!"

BUT---this really isn't on topic, is it?????

Sorry Sorry Sorry.
I had a relative who was accused by a therapist who consulted the "universal core" (no talking involved)--and then did the rest of the deed by suggesting abuse via "recovered memory" methods. By the time the system figured it all out, so much damage had been done...

Okay. So about Elijah.....ummmm....cute, isn't he???

What I really wanted to say is that I adore you women. Even when I'm not contributing, it is so wonderful to come here and have my fix of lively intelligent women--with so much heart and appreciation of beauty.... It does me so much good.

((((Faculty))))

oops--we are getting into controversial territory

BUT---this really isn't on topic, is it?????

See, that's one of the things I love about the Faculty - when it goes way off topic, at least you all realize that's what you're doing! ;) :D A little self-moderation goes a long way, and makes my job easier! :k

Seriously, the whole discussion (and controversy) about recovered memory would make a great thread for the Rivendell forum - and would provide an interesting alternative to the heat of the political battles in other threads there. :p If anyone wants to keep discussing it (as it has clearly moved far away from discussion of anything having to do with any of Elijah's movies, and is entering both interesting AND controversial ground), then one of you brave souls can start a thread in Rivendell. I can move your current posts from here to there, if you like, or you can copy and paste them there and I can delete the posts here. I'll just leave them if no one is interested in continuing the conversation elsewhere, but this is a touchy subject, and way off-topic for this thread (as many of you have recognized ;) ).

((((Faculty)))

You're right, Narya. Thanks for being so sweet about the transgression. :k You are the very picture of diplomacy. I do beg your pardon. And I don't need to go further with the discussion on this on board as this is the only one I have time to keep up with. So unless the others want to move the posts and continue, I'll promise not to go on anymore.... (and I do want to say I respect the varying views of obviously caring posters who might have differed from me in their perspectives on this ((((Grumpy))) ). :k

Though...(playfully bringing this on topic)...I would like to recover some memories that are EW related. And I am open to any suggestion.... ;) :D

While I'm here--I think I forgot to say Happy Birthday to Wood and Veronwe!!

Many Happy Returns!!!!!

It sounds like he he is doing nothing but making up for not REALLY going to college, with all of the Ivy League scripts he's been getting lately. LOL.

I wish MY life was like that! LOL.

OK, people, especially for Maeglian and Moondancer, who were curious about what it was that I was linking to..you'll be pleased to know that I have worked out what it was that I was doing wrong ( Image-linking to a page rather than a picture...Dimwit :rolleyes: !!! )
So I fixed the previous link, but because the page has moved on quite a lot, here he is again, in all his glory...

Frodo, pre-movie vision :D! :-

http://www.nightrunner.com/gallery/tolkien/Angus%20McBride/Sketches/Frodo.gif

This is how Frodo was largely portrayed, and indeed, all the Hobbits, before Peter Jackson turned them all into real people,who are unutterably cute, and not at all like the dumpy little gnome-like creature we see here...By and large, all the illustrators of Tolkien, on the website where this comes from, portray them in the same way...and, of course, we know that in the book, Frodo was all of fifty years old when he embarked on his quest-thing, so it's not really surprising ! Now that the movies have come out, it'll be very interesting to see how similar to Elijah's Frodo future illustrations will be...

Lady Wendy, thanks for the new try, but all I see is a white box with a red cross. Copying and pasting the link takes me to the message "down for few days". (Interesting effect, though - it's like Christo's coverings. The less you see the more you become curious :D .) - Never mind! :k

If I'm not mistaken, Lady Wendy is trying to link to this illustration by Angus McBride:
http://www.torania.de/luthien/fellow/fr354mcbride.jpg

This is how Frodo was largely portrayed, and indeed, all the Hobbits, before Peter Jackson turned them all into real people,who are unutterably cute...

Are you sure that real people are really so unutterably cute? :p I've certainly met quite a few men--some of them immensely gifted individuals, btw--who are definitely closer to McBride's Frodo in the cuteness department :).

...and, of course, we know that in the book, Frodo was all of fifty years old when he embarked on his quest-thing, so it's not really surprising !
But he looked the same as he had on his 33rd birthday, which was the day the Ring came to him--no physical aging from that day until the Ring was destroyed, since he had custody of it throughout that time. And since hobbits come of age at 33, IMHO he'd look like a Man at the age of, say, 19-21 (there are other theories on that, but no matter how hobbit longevity is calculated, he wouldn't look a day over 33).

As an old curmudgeon when it comes to Frodo and Tolkien, I have to say there have been some very nice non- or pre-movie illustrations of Frodo. I know, I know, I keep saying as soon as I learn to scan :rolleyes: ...

Here's the best I can get of one of the two pics I've mentioned several times. I was able to snag a copy of the book jacket from the SFBC site. The following is the closest I can tweak it to look like the full-size jacket, but it doesn't do it (or Frodo) justice. If I wanted to swoon over Frodo, this is the pic I'd choose ;) :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/012567_lg0.jpg

I don't know when this picture was created, but it was available on the book jacket by the time the first movie came out.

My still-all-time-favorite Frodo picture was drawn when Elijah was a wee babe :) . I will have to learn to scan to post that one, though, I'm afraid. Not swoon-producing, but he's very good looking, IMHO.

Seriously, the whole discussion (and controversy) about recovered memory would make a great thread for the Rivendell forum - and would provide an interesting alternative to the heat of the political battles in other threads there.

I had no idea the issue was still so volatile! :o Sorry about that, all, and especially ((((zkgrumpy)))) and ((((Alyon)))). Since I approached it in my usually long-winded fashion, I'd prefer to not debate the RL examples and just stick with the studies showing people's memories can be influenced by others (I'm assuming, based on grumpy's unethical therapist, that we agree on that much). Those studies go way back before the "false memory syndrome" debate, and are the reason a good policeman will separate his witnesses as soon as possible - otherwise the strongest personality will often influence the others. Which I experienced first-hand once when I saw an accident but didn't join in the "wow, did you see that?" discussion after. Everyone else had seen "that young punk" clobber the old people's vehicle, while I'd seen the old people pull out in front of the kid, giving him no way to avoid the accident. :p


If I'm not mistaken, Lady Wendy is trying to link to this illustration by Angus McBride

I don't terribly mind that one. My concept of Frodo was that he was beautiful inside but not necessarily beautiful outside. My problem with most LOTR art (and I had by no means seen it all before the movies) is that the hobbits are too cutesy - the Hildebrandt's come to mind. PJ's Frodo is much more beautiful than I imagined, and his Sam fatter sometimes, but I think I can adapt. ;) I was bugged by the lack of foot fur, but I suspect the speculation on this thread that it'd look like slippers is probably true.

The following is the closest I can tweak it to look like the full-size jacket, but it doesn't do it (or Frodo) justice.

That is lovely. Whose hand is that coming up from beneath the sword? :eek: SFBC - "Science Fiction Book Covers"?

Sheryl

edit: Whoops! Forgot:


What's that on Wood's cake; - is it bears?


Yep. Confusing close-up:

http://www.ascater.com/images/bears.jpg

Looking at that I fear it's a wedding cake after all. Oh, well, maybe no one else will notice. Hey everybody, look at the pretty forest! :p

http://www.ascater.com/images/forrest.jpg

Sheryl

I'm guessing that's Gollum's hand. Or maybe Sam is losing it in that picture? LOL. Frodo looks like a Prince in a Fairy Tale in tha tpicture. the other one looks like a Charles Bronson pose or something. Beside's Hobbits are Earthy looking Mancreatures to me anyway.

What is sternocledomastoid?

Brunhilde,
If I'm not mistaken, Lady Wendy is trying to link to this illustration by Angus McBride:

Yes, yes, that's it exactly...except that mine is a B&W version...I've no idea why this website is not showing things properly for all of you, when I have said picture showing perfectly well on my computer, within my post, where it should be...maybe this is because my computer is showing a cookie-linked picture, or one saved from a few days ago, when I found it, whereas the website really IS down for a few days, and is therefore actually not available at the mo...Do any of you slightly more computer-savvy ladies know whether that may be true, or whether I'm just making it up ?!!
Well, when it is back up and running, it is worth a visit...it is the J.R.R.Tolkien-inspired Gallery at www.nightrunner.com ....artwork from simply loads of artists, including all the best known ones...tis a lovely place to browse, when you are feeling a little short on inspiration...

Tgshaw,
But he looked the same as he had on his 33rd birthday, which was the day the Ring came to him--no physical aging from that day until the Ring was destroyed, since he had custody of it throughout that time. And since hobbits come of age at 33, IMHO he'd look like a Man at the age of, say, 19-21 (there are other theories on that, but no matter how hobbit longevity is calculated, he wouldn't look a day over 33).

That is, of course, absolutely true..and the well-known reason for casting an actor of twentyish in the part....and I always accepted that thinking...so why do a lot of the illustrations of Frodo look so much older, and, gnomish...? Not all of them do, of course..the pic you posted is a very romantic vision of Fro...reminds me of that painting of Ophelia in the lake a bit...and I'm sure that I've seen a whole lot of paintings by the same artist, probably on the very website we can't access right now..curses :( !! Maybe one of you could try and access it again in a few days time, as my computer seems to be able to see it anyway...)

Oh well...

Shilohmm,
I don't terribly mind that one. My concept of Frodo was that he was beautiful inside but not necessarily beautiful outside. My problem with most LOTR art (and I had by no means seen it all before the movies) is that the hobbits are too cutesy - the Hildebrandt's come to mind. PJ's Frodo is much more beautiful than I imagined, and his Sam fatter sometimes, but I think I can adapt. I was bugged by the lack of foot fur, but I suspect the speculation on this thread that it'd look like slippers is probably true.

This particular rendition of Frodo is just far too much like a funny little man for me...but I do know exactly what you mean by too cutesy...seems like if they're not like little wizened old gnomes, then they are like Disney's Seven Dwarves from Snow White...not too much nobility of spirit being portrayed like I would want it to be portrayed, if you know what I mean...
As for the foot-fur, or rather the lack of it in the movie version...no, can't say that bugged me at all... :D:D:D

I tried mightily to edit my last post in order to answer the questions I knew would be asked ;) , but the computer kept timing out on me, and I had to get to work, so now I'm stealing a bit of time at work :rolleyes: to answer them retrospectively.

SFBC = Science Fiction Book Club

Explanation for the hands: As I was trying to say in my edit, this pic isn't a "snapshot" of a particular moment in the story, but more the author's comment on all the hands reaching for the Ring. The one coming up from below, I assume, is Gollum. The one coming from the upper right seems to be Sam's. I'd have to look at the pic again (it's at home, of course) to know who's holding the sword--either Aragorn or Boromir--and who's hand is underneath Frodo, holding him. It's quite a complex picture, wrapping around the book and onto the flaps. Interestingly, Gandalf is separated from the group, and appears to be trying to lead the others on, perhaps showing that he's not "grasping" for the Ring? Definitely set in Moria, and I think Frodo is in "dead mode" from being skewered. But, of course, the mithril shirt wasn't visible then, which leads me to believe all the more that it's meant to be more of an idea/commentary than a realistically-shown moment.

BTW, I share the dislike of "cutesy" or childlike hobbits (except for the ones who actually are children, of course). They should look like adult Men, just at half the height and without beards. Some commentators--usually those who consider LotR just a "boys' adventure book"--use the beardlessness as evidence that hobbits are meant to be people who never really grow up, but IMHO their actions in the book don't fit that idea. I think it was just one of the characteristics Tolkien gave them to set them off from Men (and to show the ones who'd been most "friendly" with Men by allowing them a few facial hairs :p ).

The pics that show hobbits as gnome-like or as "funny little men" do somewhat the same thing--that is, show their heads too big for their bodies, etc. JRRT is clear that their proportions are the same as Men's, except for the fact that more of them might be chubby, but a chubby hobbit should just look like a short, chubby Man, not a leprechaun! JRRT's own drawings show them in human proportions--the first one that comes to mind is Bilbo in "Barrels Out of Bounds." So PJ's height effects were just as they should have been, IMHO (in comparison to the "big folk" in the movies, that is; the relative heights of the individual movie-hobbits to each other didn't follow book canon).

Something else that I'd tried to edit in earlier has to do with Frodo's age as related to Frolijah. Since Elijah was at just the right physical age to portray Frodo at the time of the quest, some people (including myself) were hoping that PJ would stick to book canon and give us a 50-year-old's mind and emotions within a just-coming-of-age body. If anyone could have portrayed that situation believably, it would have been Elijah! But such was not to be, as PJ decided on a younger, more dependent and naive Frodo.

Edited to put in my $.02 (US) about hobbits:

At one point in the book, Sam is watching Frodo sleep (he did that a lot, it seems) and said to himself that he was beautiful. I don't think it was just the "glass filled with light", I think that Frodo was physically beautiful. Gandalf, I think, told Butterbur that Frodo was "...fairer than most..." - in what context was he using "fair" and am I being particularly geeky today? ;)

Didn't shooting on EiI start today?

:::: praying for someone in Prague with a good digital camera and lots of time to hang around sets :::: :z:

~grumpy

Gandalf, I think, told Butterbur that Frodo was "...fairer than most..." - in what context was he using "fair" and am I being particularly geeky today? ;)
There has been some debate (geeky? :eek: ) as to whether "fair" in that context meant better looking or with lighter coloring. Lighter coloring would be a fallohide trait, as would Gandalf's statement that Frodo is "taller than some." [I can never remember if it's taller than some & fairer than most or vice versa, but I'll follow your lead :p .] Sam's the only one of the Travelers who wasn't primarily (maybe completely?) fallohide, so the group really isn't representative of hobbits as a whole. Fallohides, as well as being natural leaders, are taller, slimmer, and "fairer" than most hobbits--that drop of fairy blood, y'know ;) .

But, of course, the mithril shirt wasn't visible then, which leads me to believe all the more that it's meant to be more of an idea/commentary than a realistically-shown moment.

I'd like to see the whole thing, if you could post it later. Or I'll go looking for it when I feel ambitious. :p


Some commentators--usually those who consider LotR just a "boys' adventure book"--use the beardlessness as evidence that hobbits are meant to be people who never really grow up, but IMHO their actions in the book don't fit that idea.

I never bought that, any more than I thought hobbits should look gnome-like. Most American Indians are beardless, but definitely not children. ;)



Since Elijah was at just the right physical age to portray Frodo at the time of the quest, some people (including myself) were hoping that PJ would stick to book canon and give us a 50-year-old's mind and emotions within a just-coming-of-age body.

I am one who hoped for that as well. *sigh* Elijah could so have carried it off. I still weep over bits of ROTK, even watching it in pieces parts with the kids making smart remarks or ignoring the movie entirely and fighting over whatnot. Not to discount PJ's skill as a movie maker, or to vehemently argue against his choices, but that boy is *good*.


At one point in the book, Sam is watching Frodo sleep (he did that a lot, it seems) and said to himself that he was beautiful.

Doesn't it say somewhere that Frodo's beautiful "for those with eyes to see" or some such? I always thought that passage indicated that Sam had "eyes to see," and it was Tolkien's way of saying, "don't discount the gardener." :p

But I suspect I'm in the minority here in arguing that Frodo was not necessarily lovely to the average viewer. ;) I do dislike pictures of Frodo that I consider ugly, but I'm okay with average-looking Frodo. And I think PJ was perfectly right to cast a beautiful Frodo - there's plenty of evidence that the average movie goer isn't going to have "eyes that can see" when it comes to inner beauty.

Sheryl

Brunhild!! :eek: The Middle Earth archaeologists will be delirious with glee since that picture proves the hitherto much-disputed existence of that elusive precursor to modern day hobbits (or "hobbitus erectus"): The Neanderthal hobbit!

Lady Wendy, I think you are right about the cookie explanation. The entire site, not just that one picture, states that it's down for a few days. But I'm always interested in LotR illustrations so I'll revisit it in a couple of days.

And wow! Tg, you're right: That picture is gorgeous! The lovely and angsty Frodo, the colours and all. I was trying to figure out which scene this is before reading your later post on the topic, but was totally confounded. Frodo's got the mithril, so it's after Rivendell. And that hand in the lower left corner must either be Gollum's, or an Orc. ( Can't be an orc, though, because Frodo's also got the Ring.) So the other hands would all be Sam's, then, but neither hands nor sword look especially Sam-like. And how many hands does Sam have, anyway? :eek: Now that I've read your explanation, I'd like to see the whole pic, if possible. It's certainly got a vaguely manacing and even creepy quality with all those ownerless grasping hands....

Thank you for posting it, it's great! :)

About the fairer than most; I've always been of two minds. My brain says Frodo had lighter colouring. My heart says he was good-looking. I suppose an interpretation that encompasses both would be the ideal solution, except that PJ has proven what the ideal solution really is. :)


Count me in as another one who did not know the memory topic was so sensitive here. Sorry. I'd just like to add that the stuff in my post related to actual occurences in my own country. And while we of course do firmly believe we're the center of the universe, the rest of the world might beg to differ; - so I doubt very much I was referring to anything anyone else here has ever specifically heard or read about.

Edit:

Sheryl, I think "those with eyes to see" referred to Frodo's inner light shining through as described by Gandalf in Rivendell, but the theme is taken up again in "Herbs and Stewed Rabbit" when Sam looks at the sleeping Frodo and sees the light shining faintly within Frodo, and also thinks that he looks beautiful. In fact, he looks "old and beautiful". So the "beautiful" there seems more related to some quality of character and spirit that has become more precious and refined and distilled as over many long years, than actual physical beauty. But however that may be, it inspires deep love and admiration and caring in Sam. And what can be more beautiful than that?

[/sappy mode] :o

I'd like to see the whole thing, if you could post it later. Or I'll go looking for it when I feel ambitious. :p
I will learn to use a scanner... I will learn to use a scanner...

It's possible that the same picture may appear somewhere else on the web--on the SFBC site, they show only the front of the book, which isn't even half of it.

...but that boy is *good*.
Nah--y'think? ;) :p :p

And I think PJ was perfectly right to cast a beautiful Frodo...
Certainly not a problem for me :p -- but to follow up on the quote just above, IMHO it's Elijah's acting ability that carries the movie, not his looks. I'd like to think that PJ would have recognized his "magic" and cast him even if he hadn't been quite so beautiful.

His physical beauty does fit with the interpretation that he's portraying the "inner Frodo"--no matter what he looked like, Frodo was undeniably beautiful inside, and more so as time went on.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR THE BIRTHDAYS WISHES!!!!! :k :k

and happy birthday to you Veronwe!!! :k

i just pup in very quickley to say i miss you all very much
but my computer has crash so i borrowing my mothers for a while
at her place dont know when i can be back!!
i hope very soon i miss to talk about mr.beautiful with you ladyes!!!

I was watching my RotK DVD over the weekend, and something occurred to me when listening to Frodo's voiceover as Sam returns to Bag End that I hadn't really thought of before. PJ's moving the story along so quickly in the beginning of FotR meant that Frodo didn't have those 17 years to "not be torn in two...one and whole for many years," so making Frodo only 33-34 in the movie makes him an even more tragic figure than he was in the books, IMO.

It took me a while but I found the passage in the book with the 'fairer than most' description in my Dutch LOTR book.
"maar deze is langer dan sommigen en blonder dan de meesten en hij heeft een spleetje in zijn kin: een parmantig mannetje met een heldere blik"

"but this one is taller than some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin: perky chap with a bright eye"
They translated "fair" as "blond"..."blonder than most"
:confused: :confused:


Wow, tg. That picture is quite something. I went looking for Frodo images and I did find it elsewhere but...only a smaller picture.

There are lots of great (and weird) images to be found. A lot of the pre-movie hobbits did look like short, old and rather weird looking little men or they looked too much like children.
http://www.dreamers.com/leviatan/Imagenes/ (http://www.dreamers.com/leviatan/Imagenes/page_01.htm)

I'd like to think that PJ would have recognized his "magic" and cast him even if he hadn't been quite so beautiful.
Yep, I'd like to think so too. PJ did say that they had been looking at many, many Frodo auditions before The One Videotape from EJW. At first Peter Jackson didn't really want to look at it (if I'm not mistaken) but somebody else (Fran?) convinced him to do so (she had just seen The Ice Storm), right?
I often wondered what made Peter stop the other auditions and say "this is him, we found him.". What exactly was he looking for and did he find right then and there?
Peter did talk about it but never really in details (at least, not that I can remember).

PJ's moving the story along so quickly in the beginning of FotR meant that Frodo didn't have those 17 years to "not be torn in two...one and whole for many years," so making Frodo only 33-34 in the movie makes him an even more tragic figure than he was in the books, IMO.
In the book, you do get to read about his time in the Shire before he had to leave and afterwards, the years he tries to have a life but realising that he's hurt too much.
You're right, movie!Frodo doesn't appear to have much time to just enjoy his beloved Shire.
But, going back to what zkgrumpy said a couple of pages ago about remembrance day.
On that day, I went to the graves of the soldiers who died in WWI and II. One was a young man (died when he was 23yrs old), he was captured by the Germans in june, tortured and he died more than three months later.
Very tragic and it didn't only make me think of Elijah with his (hopefully) golden future in front of him (the same age) but also of Frodo and his sacrifices for Middle Earth. I was happy to have brought some flowers to put on some of those soldiers' graves.

They translated "fair" as "blond"..."blonder than most" Now, why didn't I think of that? I rushed to have a look at my translated version; - and what do you know? :D It uses a word for "fair" (> "flott") that means "dashing, good-looking", and certainly not the word for "blond"! So even the translators don't agree on what Tolkien had to say about Frodo's looks.

You know, this is yet another example of that ambiguity that can be found all throughout LotR and which makes it so rewarding to ponder and discuss! :)


Concerning illustrations, have you all seen Anke Katrin Eissman's LotR illustrations? Many of them predate the movies and she has her own vision. The picture I was looking for, of Sam watching Frodo while he sleeps in Ithilien, is number 2 on this link. But there also are various illustrations of Frodo being interrogated by Faramir that I really think capture the mood and feeling of Frodo's self-possession, courage and ability at word-parrying; - while surrounded by a lot of suspicious men intent on his every word, and facing the sharp and direct Faramir. It leaves you with a sense of the wit and maturity and mental resources of book Frodo that may perhaps be somewhat lost or at least changed and expressed in other ways in Frolijah's corresponding interrogation by Faramir.

Here's the link to that particular page on her site: http://anke.edoras-art.de/anke_tolkien_lotr4.html


About Frodo going "into war" so young, and without having enjoyed 17 good years as his own master in the Shire: Yes, I definitely think it was PJ's intention in casting EJW that his youth and innocent looks should make Frodo's sacrifice resemble the tragedy of all those young men who went to war and didn't come back, or came back as marked men with lives in ruins before they could fully begin. It's my guess that Tolkien's WW1 experience was part of the reason for this choice; - I remember PJ saying something along those lines in one of the Oscar Night interviews, although I don't think he was speaking specifically about Frodo at the time, but about the "meaning of LotR" in general.

TG and all, that picture you posted is by Donato Giancola (http://www.donatoart.com/ftsy/lord.html) His work is really gourgeous, isn't it? I think that the hand with the sword is definitely Aragorn's. Don't think Sam is represented in this one at all. I think the other hand, the one nearest the Ring is Frodo's, but it's rather large isn't it.

I love his cover illustration for "The Hobbit" (http://www.donatoart.com/ftsy/hobbit.html). I could swoon over that Bilbo; he's adorable! :)

Another really nice one by Mr. Giancola is one of Faramir (http://www.donatoart.com/ftsy/faramir.html) trying to hold the gates at Osgiliath.

Come to think of it, I may just need a set of LoTR and The Hobbit with Mr. Giancola's lovely illustrations!

Honey!

**Pops in**

Honey, thank you! Those links also lead to the full book cover of LotR - with Aragorn and Gandalf in addition to Frodo. I like it even better now I see the whole thing. Several fine LotR illustrations - don't know about his Galadriel though..... she seems most of all bent on full-on seduction!

**Pops out**

I wonder if the fact that Frodo left the Shire to Sam to take care of is a sort of Death?

Did he really go to a Higher Plane when he joined the Elves? The Elves are Heavenly Creatures, right?

Does this mean that Frodo is really a God in disguise?

This is probably not going to be of use to anybody in here (unless serena still plans to go to Czechoslovakia or did I remember that not correctly?), but Elijah's going to go to a film festival there (2 - 10 July, 2004). Charlie Kaufman is also going to attend (maybe it's to do with the promotion of ESOTSM there?)

They have his picture with a short biography on the site.

http://www.kviff.com (http://www.kviff.com/desktopdefault.aspx?tabId=146#)


:::: praying for someone in Prague with a good digital camera and lots of time to hang around sets ::::
There's bound to be a couple of good photographers on that film festival, right? Maybe even an interview?

Tg, thank you for THAT illustration! *gulp* It takes me dangerously close to swoon mode. What a beautiful Frodo! And a big thank you to you, Honey, for the link to Donato Giancola's site. It's wonderful. :)
And thanks to Moondancer and Maeglian for the other links -

*Whiteling wallows in pictures, pictures, pictures*

Ahem... :D

Now, why didn't I think of that? I rushed to have a look at my translated version; - and what do you know? It uses a word for "fair" (> "flott") that means "dashing, good-looking", and certainly not the word for "blond"!

The passage "but this one is taller than some and fairer than most, and he has a cleft in his chin: perky chap with a bright eye" is in German
"Aber dieser eine ist grösser als manche und hat hellere Haare als die meisten, und er hat ein gespaltenes Kinn: ein kecker Bursche, mit klugen Augen."
"Fair" is here translated as "blond". - Maeglian, is "flott" a Norwegian word? In German it has the similar meaning of "keck", that is "perky".

So much great stuff and so little time! I nearly missed an important appointment last night looking at all the pics on those various links! I've seen quite a few of the ones on the site Moondancer linked to--mostly on Tolkien calendars over the years. Maybe the Tolkien Estate will commission Donato for a calendar (if they have, and I've missed it--there are a couple of years I didn't have a chance to buy--I'll be very unhappy). I've seen his Bilbo somewhere, too, but I don't think on a book cover. Noticed that particular cover says the book is "adapted"--a graphic novel or something, maybe?

Could go into some comments on the various artists at Moondancer's link, but don't have time :( -- and that probably doesn't belong here, anyway.

One comment on a bit of on-topic art, though--the front of the RotK DVD. I'm hoping other localities sold the same cover I've got, so most of us are looking at the same picture. The artwork looks as if it's taken from photographs or frames of the film, but if so they're definitely retouched. It took me awhile to notice that the artist got one thing exactly right--Frolijah's "jaw setting" :) . An artist who's either very observant or a reader of this thread ;) . Here's a screencap to compare it with:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/RotK/PDVD_16300-crop.jpg

Note to SCS--Your questions are ones that were asked a lot during the time when all we had was The Hobbit and LotR. But since then, we've gotten definitive answers from the Sil (regarding the Elves) and Tolkien's published letters, which would be "no" to all four :) . Brings back "old times" :p to read the questions again, though. If you want more details, just post them over in the Green Dragon :) .

In a LJ, somebody posted a link to new pictures from Prague (thanks if you're reading this, moonie)
It has Elijah with a...erm...weird hairstyle.
:lol:
Looks like the hairstyle that was popular in the beginning of the previous century :confused: (my dad used to have a similar hairstyle when he was about 18yrs old)
So....only guessing here...is Elijah perhaps playing the grandfather after all?
It can't be for Jonathan. I could be wrong here but Jonathan is a modern guy.
So, why the classic outfit + oldfashioned hairstyle?
Have a look for yourself.
EII picture (http://de.f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/ph/maiky711/detail?.dir=/261e&.dnm=91e9.jpg)
I hope it's OK to link this. The pictures are weird, though. I don't know they're real or fake.

Also, I saw a request by a casting agency to look for people who look like Elijah Wood for EII
http://prague.tv (http://prague.tv/bboard/viewpost.php?id=4284)

In a LJ, somebody posted a link to new pictures from Prague.
It has Elijah with a...erm...weird hairstyle.


What's especially funny about this is that there are some who would consider Lij's hairstyles weird -- his fauxhawk, his kitten hair, etc. This is the most conservative hairstyle I've ever seen on him and we think it's weird -- LOL!


Looks like the hairstyle that was popular in the beginning of the previous century :confused: (my dad used to have a similar hairstyle when he was about 18yrs old) So....only guessing here...is Elijah perhaps playing the grandfather after all?

That was my first impression too, although I thought it looked preppy 1950's-ish.


It can't be for Jonathan. I could be wrong here but Jonathan is a modern guy. So, why the classic outfit + oldfashioned hairstyle?

Also, Jonathan wears glasses so I don't think this' him.


I hope it's OK to link this. The pictures are weird, though. I don't know they're real or fake.

I'm pretty sure they're real -- the person who took them posts to our Everything Is Illuminated yahoogroup, and the fact that you saw them on an lj only means that they're already sweeping the fandom.

the person who took them posts to our Everything Is Illuminated yahoogroup, and the fact that you saw them on an lj only means that they're already sweeping the fandom.
Oh, great.
Is there a story (background info) attached to the pictures or not? Any extra info or is it the usual fanmeeting report?

(I hate to join yet another yahoogroup so...keep us informed, will you?)

Oh, great.
Is there a story (background info) attached to the pictures or not? Any extra info or is it the usual fanmeeting report?

Now Moondancer, I would surely be falling down on the job if I didn't share all I knew! But in this case, all she said was that she and her friend met him yesterday "in Prague on the set" and he was "sooo cute and lovely". Yep -- sounds about right -- LOL.

(I hate to join yet another yahoogroup so...keep us informed, will you?)

I think you can count on that, luv! And btw, I'm sure there are several other Faculty members who are also a part of that group, so when we know anything, I'm sure one of us will post it here too.

Thanks, Achila
:k

That was my first impression too, although I thought it looked preppy 1950's-ish.

Ah, but the tie is too wide for the fifties. More like the fourties I'm thinking. And a little formal/sober in coloration, too. Perhaps this look is Saffran's wedding suit, or something like that?

with anticipation :D ,
Honey!

Newsflash -- here's one taken today:

http://photo.wenn.com/index.php?fp=1&action=info&last_action=search&id=132930&session_id=98bfc7328465d7730d7df652a487e93b


If someone has an account and they come up with the picture you can actually see, I'll let you guys know. But notice the glasses!

Doesn't that kind of look like a Cary Grant hairstyle in the pic Moondancer linked to??? And doesn't he look a little like Gregory Peck in the one Achilla linked?? Or am I just dreaming???

:)

He does look like a good blend of Cary Grant and Gregory Peck.

Does Elijah look as if he could pull off Dylan Thomas? or does Ian Griffudd look a lot more like him (the Captain Horatio Hornblower shows dude).

Happy Birthday, Whiteling!
:)

recognize him?

HAPPY BIRTHDAY WHITELING!

Just popped in to leave your

Birthday Gif(t) (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Whiteling.gif)

Hope you're having a lovely day! :)

Happy Birthday Whiteling! I brung a gift too, but I hope you don't mind that I didn't wrap it -- he wouldn't sit still. Enjoy!

Happy Birthday, Whiteling!

Let's see--we've had cute from Moondancer, beautiful from Blossom, and all-growed-up ;) from Achila, so how about something completely different :p ?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/CoE/41-Todd.jpg
Brought to you by the Unofficial Todd Fan Club

Don't worry--you don't have to listen to him ;) :) .

Happy Birthday Whiteling!

http://www.fancycakesbylauren.com/cakes/cornelliswirl2.jpg

Doesn't compare to all the great pics and Blossom's gif, though. "The Unofficial Todd Fan Club," tg? Are there any official members or only the unofficial kind? If the second, then I'm an unoffical member. :D LJ has a bunch of fun avatars based on that sequence - Ele had one, with a tiny clip of him singing down in the corner. :cool:


It took me awhile to notice that the artist got one thing exactly right--Frolijah's "jaw setting."

What fascinates me about that shot (and it's even more obvious in the painting, IMHO), is that his eyes are scared but his jaw is determined. Not only does EW have more than one expression - he's capable of two very different expressions at once! :eek: :D

And I gotta say, having been in my share of choirs and musicals, that EW's expression as Todd there is Absolutely Perfect for that kind of guy. No Frodo-esque angst in that performance. ;)

Sheryl

Swamped by real life! Birthday wishes all around, belated and timely--and a warm thanks to all who are keeping us up to date about EW's latest projects. The news is much appreciated!

Here they are, gang! Notice Liev sitting there near him in the first one.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v236/aquila0212/prague2.jpg

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v236/aquila0212/prague1.jpg

I personally think he looks adorable and sooo young...sigh...why weren't there any boys that looked like that when I was his age....


PS -- If you see a red X, it means Photobucket is experiencing problems -- try refreshing or come back later

http://photo.wenn.com/index.php?fp=1&action=info&last_action=search&id=132930&session_id=98bfc7328465d7730d7df652a487e93b


If someone has an account and they come up with the picture you can actually see, I'll let you guys know. But notice the glasses!
You can now see the bigger version of those pictures on "That Site You Can't Link To" ;)
Those glasses! :eek: :lol: )
Edit: simulposted with Achila :)

Also, the ESOTSM is out on DVD on september 28th ESOTSM DVD on amazon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005JMJG/104-5662496-7195966)
odd...this means that the DVD is out more than a month before the theatrical release in Belgium

OH MY!! I love those pictures!! Thanks so much Achila!!
:cool:

And Happy Birthday Whiteling!!!!

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, WHITELING !!!

Here, have some Meduseld Cake...

http://www.fantasyplanet.cz/gfx/pictures_clanky/lotr_gal_velky_2004131014117658.jpg

(I just knew you'd love this lovely piece of cake craftsmanship....it's just fantastic, isn't it !!! )

Re: the EII Pics from Prague, I'm with Moondancer on this one...these are definitely pics of Elijah in 1940's style suit and hairstyle, and therefore, this certainly looks like Elijah playing the scenes of his Grandfather in flashback..remember we were speculating on whether he would be playing both roles...either that or Prague is spectacularly behind the rest of the world in the fashion stakes :D !!! Have to say I'm not convinced about the specs though...they are more like 70's style big-specs that girls would have worn ...not 40's style men's glasses...

Lady Wendy--That cake is amazing! :eek: :cool:

Achila--Thanks for the pictures. They're raising my optimism for this movie even higher. BTW, my vote for "looks most like" is Cary Grant. :) (But, boy, that second one has a lot of Gregory Peck in it, doesn't it?)

A brief note on the glasses: Kind of depends on how bad his eyesight is supposed to be. Even with modern plastic lenses, my really strong prescription can't be put into cute little frames. It's hard to tell from the pictures, but it looks as if those lenses might be pretty thick--just judging by the slight distortion. If someone had "Coke bottle" glasses in the 1940's, the frames would have to be larger than might have been fashionable.

Erm...looking at the picture again. Notice the little bag on his waist?
I'm just quoting something from the book here:

*** Book quote ***




I was finally able to prevail on the hero to give his documents. He stored them on a thing on his belt. Later he told me that this is called a fanny pack, and that fanny packs are not cool in America and that he was only donning a fanny pack because a guidebook said he should don one to keep his documents close to his middle section. (p.63)


and another quote from the meeting with Jonathan
When we found each other, I was very flabbergasted by his appearance. This is an American? I thought. And also, This is a Jew? He was severely short. He wore spectacles and had diminutive hairs which were not split anywhere, but rested on his head like a Shapka. (If I were Father, I might even have dubbed him Shapka.) He did not appear like either the Americans I had witnessed in magazines, with yellow hairs and muscles, or the Jews from history books, with no hairs and prominent bones. He was wearing nor blue jeans nor the uniform. I truth, he did not look like anything special at all. I was underwhelmed to the maximum. (p. 31)




*** End Book quote ***

OK, that second quote doesn't say much.
One the one side...erm...isn't that a fanny pack in that picture?
But on the other hand...again, Jonathan may not look like a typical American according to Alex's idea about it but he's still a modern young man.
And...on the picture, Elijah's hair does have a split.

This is a picture of the author (if the link works :z: )
Jonathan Safran Foer (http://www.wnyc.org/studio360/images/frames/FOER.jpg)

I think we need more info and more pictures to know which character he's playing in those pictures (but it's fun to speculate)

:::: head aches from peering too closely at pictures (well, that fender-bender this morning could have something to do with it too :( ) ::::

Anyway, the glasses and hair remind me very much of Nixon Administration garb - thick-rimmed glasses, fairly wide, long tie, repressive button-down collar.

I don't think it's 40's. There's a Peck/Bergman movie, "Spellbound", and glasses had wire frames (my mom and dad still had theirs from the 40's and they were gold wires). Waistbands on men were higher, and ties were wide and short.

I'm not sure about the 30's, but that outfit and hair does seem 70's. I think 30's would have had braces (suspenders) and pants fit differently when using suspenders. (Reference Frodo Baggins, LotR)

Late 50's and early 60's, young men wore striped shirts and plaid jackets, and ties were extremely skinny. Hair was also almost universally crew-cut, at least in the US. If not crew-cut, it was slicked down within an inch of its life. His hairstyle (is it a wig or did he grow it out?) would be radical for the early 60's (pre-Beatles), conservative for the 70's.

James Lipton asked Johnny Depp about his success once; JD said something about being willing to make an absolute a&& of yourself. Elijah is getting to act in some unusual roles - Frodo being the top of the list - and roles that are not necessarily cool people. This one, just from the pictures, looks promising. He's not so "cool" (or insecure) that he has a "nudge-nudge-wink-wink-I'm-really-not-this-dorky-in-real-life" attitude in his acting. Loves it, we does. The Preeeeeeeecioussssssss.... ;) Ah, the joys of watching an actor that you can actually tell from other actors...

::: hoping for some news about the shooting (so it's only been three days! So what! :D ) ::::

~grumpy

But that hair definitley has a "split." I was kinda hoping for a recurrence of the kitten hair, or even the tres geeky buzz-cut! I dunno, but that just don't look like Jonathan to me.

Weren't fanny packs an '8o's phenomenon?

Blossom, you and your gifs! Mercy! Frodo Baggins even blinks adorable. :) The little rascal! (Is there away I can save all these lovely gifs to my 'puter?)

Happy Birthday, Whiteling!

Here's a little something for you. Needs a bit of washing up, but other than that ... ;)

Honey!

Good morning ladies.

Re - EII pics - for which many thanks to Achilla and Moondancer. :)

Moondancer - yes, I noticed the 'fanny-pack,' too. And he's getting off a train isn't he? My first impression was that it must be Safran, but when I noticed the bag at his waist - and the train - well, I think now it must be Jonathan arriving to be met by Alex. But the hair - :confused: I was expecting the hero to have hair re the description you quoted from the book 'diminutive hairs with no split' - more like the real JSF's hair, or Elijah's own lovely 'kitten hair,' as Honeyelf said.

Having said all that - I think he looks absolutely adorable! Shades of Cary Grant and Gregory Peck indeed.

Originally quoted by Grumpy:
Ah, the joys of watching an actor that you can actually tell from other actors...

My thoughts exactly!

Looking forward to seeing more from Prague.

Honey - I'll pm you about saving the gifs.

Dear ladies, thank you for your birthday wishes :k !
Love your beautiful gif*t*, Blossom; great cakes, Sheryl and Lady Wendy (hey, did they also bake the members of the Rohan royal family ;) ?); and wonderful pictures, Moondancer, Achila, Honey (where's my mop?) and Tg (what a serenade). :k
Yes, I had a lovely birthday. Had the day off and went to the cinema (Harry Potter 3... fell immediately in love with the hippogriff :p ) and afterwards a nice dinner.


Great fashion discussion!


I think he looks absolutely adorable! Shades of Cary Grant and Gregory Peck indeed.

Right you are! But isn't there also a wee bit "timeless Mr Bean" look implied (ducks in anticipation of flying brilliantine tins) ? ;)

Belated birthday wishes to Whiteling. :)
I hope you enjoyed your birthday gif(t)s as much as I did! What a different EW in each one!

Thanks for those pics Achila! He actually reminds me a lot of Toby Mcguire there (in geeky Peter Parker mode )
I thought the "hero" parts of EII were set in the 90's? He looks very old fashioned there though doesnt he?

I think he's playing Jonathan there, too, mainly because of the bag. We had a discussion about those bags in the Harem once as we call them "bum bags" in the UK . "Fanny packs" would be slightly rude to Brits. :D

The Dirty picture?

It looks like the Ugliest Lawn Ornament I've ever seen! :lol:

It reminded me of Dan Akroyed when he jumped out of John Belushi's shower in the basement in the movie "Neighbors" (does Anyone remember it?) Thanks for the great laugh.

You tell that's a man not a Boy by the size of the chest and arms. LOL.

Is that his real beefy shoulder? It sure looked funny.

I loved looking at that picture though. :)

I've been away for a few days, so I know I'm too late now in saying

Happy birthday, Whiteling!

Many happy returns! :)

And now I can answer your question from a couple of days ago:
Is "flott" a Norwegian word? In German it has the similar meaning of "keck", that is "perky". Yes, it's a commonly used Norwegian word, often used as an exclamation meaning "Fine!" or "Great!" But when applied to describe a person, it means dashing, good-looking or handsome. There's no reference concerning colour of hair or other specifics of the person's looks inherent in the word.

I'm a little surprised about the EII pictures with Elijah getting off the train. Not because of his dressed-up geeky looks, he looks good no matter what he wears (or doesn't wear......:rolleyes: ), but because he looks like he's on a time travel. It's as if someone from the 1950's is getting off a train that has travelled forward in time almost to the present.

Elijah looks pretty tall in those production stills. I'm no expert, but he seems to be filling the height of that train (?) door pretty well, as if we were a good 5-6 inches taller. Is he on a box? Were trains just smaller back then? Or did they build him a hobbit-scale train car? :haha:

Or did they build him a hobbit-scale train car?
Yes, the crew had seen him in LotR, of course, and they were very surprised at how tall he was when he showed up. :p But by then it was too late to re-do the set, so they had to make the best of it. ;)

And, while I'm at it, I do have one theory that explains why the elements of the pictures don't seem to fit with each other: The pics have absolutely nothing to do with the movie, and have just been put on the internet to fake us all out :haha: .

I'm still sticking with my time travel option, Tg. :D Not only Elijah's clothes but the train itself indicates this. In past times, houses had doors so low people practically had to bend double to get in. Granted, that was a very loooong time ago, but it *was* in the past. So obviously, those who constructed the movie!train thought that the doors had to be somewhere between olden times' hobbit sized doors and modern sized doors to indicate the 1950's. :p :p


On to something else for a moment:

Congratulations on a stunning 900 posts in this version of the Faculty, tg!

:) :) :)

There are new pictures from Prague on the A&F site. I've attached just one of them.

They also posted an article about an upcoming GAP ad but on closer examination, the article was an old one from 2001.
but


Fashion retailer Gap's denim campaign features actors and musicians, including: actors Juliette Lewis, Marcia Gay Harden, Elijah Wood, Ray Liotta and Gary Sinise; musicians Carole King, India Arie, Shannyn Sossamon, Cherokee and Daft Punk; and comedian Will Ferrell of Saturday Night Live.
"The stars need money, too," says Ryan Schinman, president of Platinum Rye Entertainment, who matches corporations with entertainment and sports endorsers. "What better way to make a fast buck than shoot for 8 hours and go home with a seven-figure paycheck? That's not tough."


a seven-figure paycheck? :eek: Is that with or without the figures after the "," I mean, there's a big difference between $10.000,00 or $1.000.000,00.
Either way, it's not bad for 8 hours work.

I find it funny that the train was scaled to Hobbit size.

The punch line is that's what happens when they didn't check with anybody first.

I haven't had a good laugh in weeks. Thanks so much!

On the other hand, when I watched "The Bumblebee Flies Anyway." I too was shocked. (silly me :lol: ) His Real Height was shocking as was the fact he had a muscular body. I was so ashamed of myself, but I was looking too hard at him when I saw him at Hobbit Height.

Isn't that awful when things stick in your mind, without you're knowledge? And For no apparent reason? LOL. LOL. and LOL.

I find myself doing the opposite regarding height assumptions. When there are scenes with only hobbits in them, I forget they're supposed to be half-size and just see them as normal. I need some kind of a reminder that, "Oh, yeah, these are really little guys doing all these things," especially with all the time there's only Frodo, Sam, and sometimes ex-hobbit Gollum onscreen. I don't think this has much if anything to do with being used to seeing the actors as themselves or in "normal-sized" roles, because I've always had the same problem with the book. Unless I need to compare their height to someone/something else, I just kind of forget about it. Which is really too bad, because it makes their accomplishments even greater IMHO.

Speaking of which, yesterday I made the last frame of "The End of All Things" my home computer wallpaper. Maybe a mistake :( . It's such a gut-wrenching picture to begin with, with the two of them holding onto each other, just waiting for death. And the amount of detail added by expanding from screencap size to wallpaper size is almost too much. Absolute proof that Elijah can bring out every bit of a character's emotions even without using his eyes (to counter those who say they're his only asset :rolleyes: ). I find myself either sitting and staring at it, or not wanting to look at it at all--which, of course, is just how it should be. But I don't find myself wanting to change my wallpaper.

--------

Moondancer, I think there are very few celebrities who could get a seven-figure sum for shooting an ad (and in the U.S., that's always figured from the numbers in front of the decimal point--unless the guy's purposely trying to stretch the truth, which is possible). My guess would be that most who could rake in that much are sports figures rather than actors. IIRC, some people do manage to get a contract that gives them a "royalty" for every time an ad is shown, so if it's a popular ad that might add up to quite a bit of money--maybe he's including that in his payment figures.

And thanks for the new pic. Every bit of evidence helps in trying to solve the "mystery" :p . Hmmm... white cigarette--in character, or can't get his little brown ones in Prague?

-------

Maeg-- Good heavens :eek: ! I didn't even know it was possible to find out how many posts somebody had in one thread :eek: ! But thanks for the congratulations. That means that a little more than half of my posts have been in this thread. (((Faculty))) BTW, Maeg, I like your new "identity." :D The whole "reputation points" thing seems to have caught on a lot more in some of the other forums than it has here. Maybe because it's kind of limiting to have to give points to 20 different people before you can repeat, but IMVHO also because we're pretty good at letting each other know our appreciation without needing "points." :k

They also posted an article about an upcoming GAP ad but on closer examination, the article was an old one from 2001.

There was also a tiny mention of this (with Elijah's name and others who weren't mentioned in the article you quoted) in last week's People magazine. And someone I know on lj said there's a huge billboard of Elijah up somewhere in Queens, NY, with a new photo on it. Heavens -- imagine the traffic accidents! I can just see it now: "Officer, I'm sorry -- I couldn't help it -- I slammed into the back of that truck because I couldn't tear my eyes away from that billboard." !!!!

Heavens -- imagine the traffic accidents!

This has been a serious recurring topic over here, every year before christmas when H&M has been running their lingerie ad campaigns with a very scantily-clad Naomi Campell, Anna Nicole Smith, Elle MacPherson, Pamela Anderson and others. There's been discussion of the possible danger the huge billboards represent in the form of increase in traffic accidents, and evaluations and talk of banning the ads for that very reason. Well, the banning has come to nothing, so here I am to advocate equal opportunities in this matter: Bring on those Elijah ad billboards so we women run the same risk as men! :D

Tg, I stumbled over the post count by accident some time ago, but I've not figured out the reputation points at all. I didn't even know I was supposed to give others points. :o I trust you all know how much I like it here anyway! :)

This has been a serious recurring topic over here, every year before christmas when H&M has been running their lingerie ad campaigns with a very scantily-clad Naomi Campell, Anna Nicole Smith, Elle MacPherson, Pamela Anderson and others. There's been discussion of the possible danger the huge billboards represent in the form of increase in traffic accidents, and evaluations and talk of banning the ads for that very reason. Well, the banning has come to nothing, so here I am to advocate equal opportunities in this matter: Bring on those Elijah ad billboards so we women run the same risk as men! :D

Scantily clad lingerie ads? They're railing about traffic accidents? Harrrumph! What about sensitive children seeing pictures of nekkid wimmenfolks? It's a man's world, definitely. Women celebrities are on billboards with next to nothing on; male celebrities are on billboards modestly clothed from neck to ankle. Harrrumph. It's as bad as basketball games. Why, in *my* day men wore *shorts* when they played basketball. Now they wear these - these - baggy hobbit pants! Look how shocked we were that animated Boramir and Aragorn didn't wear pants! Back then, we had equal opportunity nekkidness! Bring back Burt Reynolds in Playgirl! Discrimination in the worst way! Equal opportunity for women! More traffic accidents for women! Death to the Gap! Bring on Speedo and Calvin Klein!

:::: ahem :::: :::: looking around sheepishly :::: :D :o :D

Tg, I stumbled over the post count by accident some time ago, but I've not figured out the reputation points at all. I didn't even know I was supposed to give others points. :o I trust you all know how much I like it here anyway! :)

Oh, is *THAT* why it keeps saying I'm not nice enough?!? ;) Harrrumph. I've a reputation to maintain, you know!

~grumpy

Happy Birthday, Wood and Whiteling! And anyone else I missed! Sorry! RL ate me this week, but I'm finally getting back and getting caught up. Your party guests are making an appearance below.

I loved those Donato pics. Just gorgeous.

I thought the discussion of repressed (or planted) memories was fascinating. (Alyon, I'd like to ask you about this in Seattle, if you're willing!) For myself, I wrote down a very important event in my life -- unforgettable. Wrote it up, and then checked the journals that I had kept at the time. I was wrong! Ten years after the fact, I had changed the order of events, assigned quotes to different speakers -- all in my "unforgettable" memory. It is a bit frightening how things can change, once we apply "meaning" to them. (And sometimes that's a good thing. Assigning meaning to PJ's TTT made it bearable for me -- another traumatic event reforged!)

Grumpy, I share your mirth at the boofy basketball pants. "What are those?" I yelled the first time I saw them, then fell off the couch laughing. My 16-yr-old niece informed me that they were "cool." I guess I'm hideously uncool. I like the Ice Storm hair.

Oh, Mariole! That's the best and clearest version I've seen of that picture yet! Aren't they fabulous?!? The facial expressions are perfect for each of them in the awe and solemnity of returning to the Shire against all odds. Frodo looks so different from the Frodo who set out in FotR...

And the costumes!! Well, it's no secret I swoon for those costumes.

from tg
"When there are scenes with only hobbits in them, I forget they're supposed to be half-size and just see them as normal. I need some kind of a reminder that, "Oh, yeah, these are really little guys doing all these things"

Me too! I tend to forget the size when it's just hobbits on screeen, too.
It's lovely when inbetween the scale effect comes across as especially poignant and uhm; - illuminating - in some of the movie scenes: Clearly showing the height of the hobbits compared to the humans and elves, but still managing to make them appear and move and behave as grown-ups, mature, - not like children. I think that scene when Frodo and Gandalf walk onto the ship hand-in-hand is one such. It simply *works*, big-time.


Scantily clad lingerie ads? They're railing about traffic accidents? Harrrumph! Well, in fairness to us wimmenfolks, there have been strong objections to both the obvious soft porn quality of the pictures and the anorectic look of some of the models. Activists have been painting "she needs food, not lingerie" and the like on the ads, and there's been quite a lot of debate in the media in previous years. So I think the traffic safety argument is really someone's idea of a legitimate reason to have the ads removed without being ridiculed for being "prude". However, this has been going on for so many years at Christmas that people have gotten used to it, and moreover it has been claimed that the protests only benefit the company in question, getting a lot of free media attention because of the controversy and hoopla....

Anyway, the most recent campaign, with not one but three ladies in scanty red silk and with pouty red lips had me seeing; - well, *red*. :rolleyes: They were everywhere: On bus stops, train stations, falling out of the local paper as advertising attachement, staring at you from huge billboards on walls and in shops and along the roads, everywhere! And these were soft porn pictures, there's no other word for it. I object to porn getting pushed in everyone's face everywhere in the public space like that, whether they've asked for it or not, and I object to everyone getting accustomed to seeing women presented like this. So again, there *were* some protests to this effect, but the media has gotten tired of it....... I suppose, or hope, that there are other women who simply do what I do: I don't shop there anymore.

And here I was, thinking the H&M ads were used in the rest of Europe and the US, too. Obviously they aren't, at least not in the US?

[/end off topic rant]

Oh, Mariole! That's the best and clearest version I've seen of that picture yet!
Ditto! I have a few versions of it saved already, but none of them are as clear as that one (so now it's saved, too, of course :p ).

It's lovely when inbetween the scale effect comes across as especially poignant and uhm; - illuminating - in some of the movie scenes: Clearly showing the height of the hobbits compared to the humans and elves, but still managing to make them appear and move and behave as grown-ups, mature, - not like children. I think that scene when Frodo and Gandalf walk onto the ship hand-in-hand is one such. It simply *works*, big-time.
And for me it works even better because I'm 99% sure it's a "natural" effect and not a "special" effect. After my last miss in the quote game, I'm not going to say I'm 100% sure of anything :rolleyes: , but IMHO we're seeing Kieran here:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/RotK/PDVD_62300-crop.jpg

When I went into the scene to take these caps, I went through it a couple of times and didn't see one shot I was especially looking for, where Frodo gets caught a bit from the side and it's even more obviously Kieran. I panicked a bit because, even though I realized it was probably a "blooper," I'd always loved that shot in the theater--I'd mentally wave "good-bye" to him and all the scale doubles at that point. Looking at the DVD this time, I was afraid they'd taken it out as a blooper :eek: (like the car in FotR). I thought, "Oh, n-o-o-o-o, they wouldn't do that, would they :( ? It's not that noticeable--he's even got his Elijah-mask on!" But then I finally found the shot--I'd been paying so much attention to how graceful Gandalf was in his robes :p that I hadn't been paying enough attention to the hobbits:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/RotK/PDVD_64101-crop.jpg

It kind of looks like Frodo's in the wrong position there. But if the pic's lightened up more it's easier to see Sam standing off to his left. So Frodo's just where he should be according to the close-ups: second from the left, but standing a bit behind the other three:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/RotK/PDVD_641000-crop.jpg

Great screen-caps, Tg!
Speaking of which, yesterday I made the last frame of "The End of All Things" my home computer wallpaper. Maybe a mistake. It's such a gut-wrenching picture to begin with, with the two of them holding onto each other, just waiting for death. And the amount of detail added by expanding from screencap size to wallpaper size is almost too much. Absolute proof that Elijah can bring out every bit of a character's emotions even without using his eyes (to counter those who say they're his only asset). I find myself either sitting and staring at it, or not wanting to look at it at all--which, of course, is just how it should be. But I don't find myself wanting to change my wallpaper.

ROTK is full of those gut-wrenching pictures. I was looking for another Frodo motive I could use as reference for a drawing but all ROTK Frodo close-ups made me dizzy at the thought of staring at it for hours and hours. Yes, it is just how it should be. Eventually I settled for a FOTR Frodo. See below.


Many thanks, Mariole :) - the Hobbit Princes are wonderful!

Sorry to interrupt the scale discussion but actually I intended to post the following sketch on my birthday (I find the Hobbit habit of bringing gifts on the own birthday very likeable :) ), but there was more work to do than I thought :o . Well, take it now as thank-you for all your kind birthday wishes! This new one is made with colour pencil and has probably not approximately as many layers as Elijah's acting. (For anyone who's wondering about the signature - my RL name has really the same initials as Elijah Wood) Enjoy! :k


http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/fotr_frodo.jpg

Carry on!

Wow, whiteling...

I'm speechless. That's amazing. The use of colors, the eyes, the chin, the mouth... :k
Beautiful and thank you for sharing this.

Utterly gorgeous, whiteling -- of course, it helps to have such a beautiful model! (and what you worked from happens to be my most favorite Frolijah pic, btw -- thanks!) Would you mind if I posted it on my lj?

Glad you like it! :)
Achila - yes, you can use it for your lj. (Will PM you on that.)
Really, your favourite pic? Yep, I quite believe it. The more I've studied it the more adorable I found it. His face is absolutely fascinating. Elusive soft and severe features, merging in the most delicate way.
At the moment I am looking for a suitable internet home for my (by now) two Frolijah sketches (I don't have an own website) and thought I'm going to submit them to the lovely frodoandsam.net. I don't know how long it takes to get accepted there. We will see. :z:
(Or perhaps Tg is willing to set up a fan art section on her brilliant website??? ;) A sketch by Leonardo has already been spotted there! :cool: )

Whiteling, that is simply beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing it with us! :k


for me it works even better because I'm 99% sure it's a "natural" effect and not a "special" effect. I've never even thought about the possibility of it not being Kieran in that entire shot..... probably partly because, as you say, it's so plainly him in that shot from the side that you included in your post. I like your idea that they kept that despite its obviousness as a "thank you" to Kieran. He deserved that!

One thing that makes the scene work so well for me when Gandalf and Frodo walk onboard, though, is the solemnity of their gait (if that is a word...?). Both are walking relatively slowly yet purposefully, Frodo/Kieran isn't goose-stepping there the way the scale-doubles often can be seen doing in other scenes to keep up.

My gollies, whiteling, that is stunner! Thank you for sharing!

And thanks to all the others posting - don't know where I would be without my daily Faculty fix. So glad you're all here. :)

Sheryl

Whiteling - that has to be one of the most beautiful pieces of Frodo artwork I've seen - anywhere. Those eyes - you've captured them perfectly. In fact you've captured everything perfectly. It's Frodo! Truly lovely! Thank you. :k

Just popping in to say -- whiteling! That is a gorgeous drawing! You really have talent! Lovely, lovely! (And that's my favorite Frolijah shot, also!)

Would you mind if I posted it in the Harem?

Thanks,
Hewene

Oh, whiteling, that was so beautiful. *sigh* I envy your artistic abilities. You can bless us with Frolijah renderings anytime you want!

And thanks, all, for the wonderful links to those other LotR and Hobbit artwork sites. I just love days like this, when I have the time to actually spend time on the internet, partaking in my favorite obsession. :D

Whiteling,
I'm just blown away by your lovely Frodo-artwork...you know, so many people have been inspired to get their pencils, pens, and crayons out in order to get Our Fro down on paper, and so few actually have any success, and yet their pics get posted everywhere...I'm so tired of seeing really bad renditions of Frodo/Elijah that I'd quite given up on seeing anything truly worthy of the term "Art"...
It takes a special kind of talent to be able to render someone's true likeness on paper, so that you know immediately who you are looking at...the eyes are usually the worst casualty, in really bad cases...but your picture is very, very good indeed...personally, I would love to see the other one too, and I'll bet that everyone here would agree with that ?...wouldn't you, ladies ?!! ;) :D

Re: Scale doubles used in LOTR...I must admit, I didn't twig at all the first time I watched FOTR, so swept up in the actual story was I...it was only when the Extended DVDwas released, with all its revelations about how they did this and that, that I could see the difference...now I can spot the use of the scale-double a mile away....not that it spoils the enjoyment for me, I accept it as par for the course, I suppose...
However, the use of Kieran at the Grey Havens, I must admit though, I didn't spot..even though it's obvious now that you point it out...

Whiteling, I LOVE our birthday mathom! It's splendid!

(And I too love the hobbit tradition of giving gifts on one's birthday. If you haven't tried it already, do so. It's a wonderful feeling!}

Honey!

Wow, thank you, thank you :o :) :o ! Guys, I'm blown away by your kind comments! I must admit that I am delighted you like my sketch.
Lady Wendy, the other one was my first attempt to get our lovely Lijah. It's here http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/frolijah/frolijah.jpg

Would you mind if I posted it in the Harem?


Hewene, I think the sketch is also great Harem material :D, so please feel free to post it there, with best regards to all your Harem sisters :k !

Re: Drawing

Strong nose and chin, innocent mouth, almost feminine skin, overwhelmingly beautiful eyes that are the physical manifestation of "...a clear glass filled with light for those who can see"...

This is one of the heartbreakingly beautiful pictures that I was talking about a while back, that it's almost embarrassing to look at because it shows so much of the character's soul. It's like all of the physical layers become immaterial and all we can see is Frodo. That one moved me to tears, whiteling.

I've thought, since I saw the movies last year, that Frodo had to go to the Undying Lands with the elves because he *did* become like Gandalf's "clear glass filled with light", and being in a normal hobbity Middle-Earthy world was a constant assault on a soul that was too exposed - the idea that if light can get out, other things can get in.

On the tapes, Frodo saw Glorfindal revealed in all of his Elvish glory. Gandalf said that it was Glorfindal's true form in the "blessed realm" and that those who had dwelt there had that form.

I think that Frodo continued to evolve when he left Middle Earth, and eventually became more Elvish than hobbit - true, he would be a very *short* elf. Being a clear glass filled with light among many beings who were pretty much the same way would allow that beautiful soul to heal.

Whiteling, I think you captured that facet of Frodo's journey beautifully.

Dang. Now I'm *really* bawling.

~grumpyandsniffly (still hoping that if I send whiteling some lines she can put them together)

Being that this is Sunday, I thought I'd share the glorious photo that Whiteling used as her inspiration (as IF I need an excuse -- tee hee! And now you can see just how well she nailed it.). When I downloaded it (from somewhere -- can't even remember now), the pic was named "Angelijah" and I've always kept it that way. I think that's a perfect name for it. Enjoy!

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v236/aquila0212/Angelijah9.jpg

being in a normal hobbity Middle-Earthy world was a constant assault on a soul that was too exposed - the idea that if light can get out, other things can get in.
Grumpy, you make me cry. Your statement brings a whole other level to Frodo's woundedness. *wibbles*

Thank you, Achilla, for revealing the source! Such a lovely rendition, Whiteling. You truly do have a talent for portraying this almost-impossible-to-capture face.

It is amazing to me to see how Elijah disappears into the different characters. I suppose that's what a character actor wants to do! But if I compare his Frodo-face/expressions to EiI, I see a completely different being standing there. And I didn't see Elijah in Patrick (ESOTSM) at all. Good job, Lij!

This is one of the heartbreakingly beautiful pictures that I was talking about a while back, that it's almost embarrassing to look at because it shows so much of the character's soul. It's like all of the physical layers become immaterial and all we can see is Frodo.
As Mariole said, I think Elijah has the gift to be able to do this with all of his characters. But this is Frodo... Seeing into his soul is... well... It's Frodo... I continue to be grateful to whoever and whatever powers were responsible for Elijah being cast in this role--there simply is no one else who could have done what he did. (And gratitude to Elijah, too, for allowing the character to lead his acting rather than the other way around--as Tolkien allowed the story to lead his writing.)

On the tapes, Frodo saw Glorfindal revealed in all of his Elvish glory. Gandalf said that it was Glorfindal's true form in the "blessed realm" and that those who had dwelt there had that form.
One of the "nods" the movies made to the book--even though it was Arwen filling in for Glorfindel. Immediately after FotR was released, some people thought it was a "blooper" that Arwen is wearing a green riding dress when we first see her, but when she goes to Frodo is in a flowing white gown. But the gown, the free-floating hair, the light, is how Frodo is seeing her, as he does Glorfindal in the book (even her "slow motion" speech fits with his state of being halfway into the shadow world). I won't go into Tolkien-geeky nitpicks about whether this was "correct" or not--I'm content that it shows us something of what Frodo's experiencing at the time.

I've thought, since I saw the movies last year, that Frodo had to go to the Undying Lands with the elves because he *did* become like Gandalf's "clear glass filled with light", and being in a normal hobbity Middle-Earthy world was a constant assault on a soul that was too exposed - the idea that if light can get out, other things can get in.

I think that Frodo continued to evolve when he left Middle Earth, and eventually became more Elvish than hobbit - true, he would be a very *short* elf. Being a clear glass filled with light among many beings who were pretty much the same way would allow that beautiful soul to heal.
Beautifully put... :( :( [meant in the best possible way]. I think at the time Frodo sailed West, there was much more happening within him than he was aware of. It's not unusual for someone in great pain to not be able to see past the suffering, making even a call to the Undying Lands seem like a punishment or a last resort, rather than an honor and a high priviledge. I agree with those who've said that by that time Frodo has grown past the Shire--grown past Middle-earth, in fact. He doesn't fit there anymore, which causes part (not all, by any means) of his pain as long as he stays there. I definitely believe his transformation continued; IMHO we see only the very beginning of it. But I don't know that I'd want him to end up completely elven. He already has that drop of elvish blood from his Took ancestors, and I could see that expressing itself more clearly in the Undying Lands. But IMVHO, a whole, healed, joyful hobbit raised to his full hobbity potential would also be a glorious thing to see :) . After all, Glorfindel's true appearance as a being of light doesn't come from his elven identity, but from having dwelt in the place Frodo is going to. (I just told someone in the Green Dragon that I'd gotten a new insight from our discussion there, even after all these years of reading LotR. I hadn't thought of that parallel between Glorfindel and Frodo, either. Two in one day :) ! I love Tolkien--and people who share things I haven't thought of :) !)

To bring things back on topic, I'm intrigued by Frolijah as he's walking toward the ship. He gets what I would call a "puzzled" look on his face. Does anyone have a take on that? Is he already starting to feel a change, and doesn't know what to make of it? Or does it have something to do with Gandalf? I don't know how to read his expression there.

---------

I've been spending less time here than usual the last few days, because of that discussion in the Green Dragon (thanks to Shadowcat who got it started :) ). They're so rare, I feel like I have to take advantage of them when they're available! So I haven't been following all the conversation as it's happened, but I did see Whiteling's "aside" about possibly putting artwork on my site. :) I'd love to do that--essays, too, that would fit on either the JRRT or the EJW side of the site (probably no fiction, just because I don't want to have to "regulate" it, but there are a lot of places for that).

But just so anyone thinking about contributing something "knows the score"--you won't get famous, or even well-known, through my site. It's not exactly a "high traffic" area. Last month, according to amazon count, I had 39 "unique visitors," so there are a few non-Faculty members who stop by but not many (and most of them are probably lurkers ;) ). I'm barely starting to stick my toe into the whole world of using keywords, alt tags, reciprocal links, etc., etc., to get a little more visibility, but I can't promise the numbers will get any higher; have to say it's not how I want to spend a great deal of my time. "Search engine optimization" is a very strange world, ruled by geeks, and I'm definitely a newbie! Of course, I'm not going to co-opt anyone's copyright :eek: , so there's no reason something couldn't be published on my site and elsewhere (as long as the elsewhere doesn't mind).

The only other caveat I can think of is that I do try to stick to publishing once a month, twice if something important happens movie-wise (or I find enough typos that I'm too embarrassed not to fix them :rolleyes: ). So things might not get posted immediately. With the site the size it is now, it can take an hour to upload and publish, so it's not something I do very often.

I've always felt my site more or less "belongs" to the Faculty, so I'm very open to doing almost ;) anything there that folks want. I'm working on Shelob's lair for July--a few people have requested it, IIRC :) .

Tgshaw,
It's not exactly a "high traffic" area. Last month, according to amazon count, I had 39 "unique visitors," so there are a few non-Faculty members who stop by but not many (and most of them are probably lurkers ).
Well, I can take some responsibility for a few of those lurkers....I have had good cause to link to your wonderful site whilst posting at the Frodo/Elijah Thread in the Movies Fandom Forum at Tolkien Online, where the ladies just LOVE to discuss Elijah's acting methods and ability, as ardently as we do here !!! They are extrememly appreciative of all your hard work, not to mention your theories that go with all the screencaps...and they were especially loving the One Expression page... I hope you don't mind me linking like this, but I do believe in the Internet being a place to share good things when you find them !!

I definitely believe his transformation continued; IMHO we see only the very beginning of it. But I don't know that I'd want him to end up completely elven. He already has that drop of elvish blood from his Took ancestors, and I could see that expressing itself more clearly in the Undying Lands. But IMVHO, a whole, healed, joyful hobbit raised to his full hobbity potential would also be a glorious thing to see

I just LOVE this thought, that Frodo continues to evolve when he leaves Middle-Earth...although I am with you when you say that you wouldn't want him to be completely Elvish...well, imho, he wouldn't be, and indeed, couldn't possibly be...his Hobbit genes wouldn't allow it...but he would more probably, evolve into something very unique to himself...I'd prefer to think of him as a one off...a Hobbit version of the Elves who also went off to the Undying Lands with him...full of spiritual light, as one who has passed into the higher realms of being...sort of, the next level up from their ordinary existence there, in ME. Yes, a whole healed Hobbit raised to his full Hobbity potential would definitely be a glorious thing to see...

from tgshaw
I'm intrigued by Frolijah as he's walking toward the ship. He gets what I would call a "puzzled" look on his face. Does anyone have a take on that?
I have always adored that quizzical look on Frodo's face as he moves towards Gandalf, just before offering his hand and boarding the ship. I felt that he was being drawn towards something that he didn't understand, yet knew was right for him. Not a moth to a flame (which can be a destructive compulsion), but as if he was answering a call from deep inside himself, responding to the spiritual resonance of this place he didn't know, but knew he was going to live in. I loved that look; it felt so very right to me. The Shire is no longer right for Frodo; he must move ahead. Frolijah's expression there let me know that, even though Frodo might not understand it, it was the best possible destiny for him. He will be welcome. He belongs there.

Oh yes, Mariole. That's how I've seen it too: Frodo has been dreading the farewell, has dreaded seeing (and causing) the anguish of his friends, has been feeling the weight of that on his mind and soul in addition to all his other burdens, and has been doubting entirely whether there will be any *use* in accepting the honour of being allowed to leave with the elves. He's sad, exhausted, depressed and alienated..... and then, as he turns from ME and moves towards the ship, and his future, he realizes, and actually starts believing, with dawning visible surprise: ME is behind, he's seen the dreaded moment of farewell through; - something new lies ahead, and it is the right thing for him! The feeling intensifies as he walks onboard, and culminates in that beautiful smile from the ship: "I'll be well. Do not grieve for me; - I have to move on. I love you; - but this is my destiny, and I can feel I'm already on the path to healing."

That's how I've seen it, at least. :)


Beautiful post about Frodo as a vessel of light, Grumpy!

The feeling intensifies as he walks onboard, and culminates in that beautiful smile from the ship: "I'll be well. Do not grieve for me; - I have to move on. I love you; - but this is my destiny, and I can feel I'm already on the path to healing."

Nice, Maeglian. And I also see some "I'll miss you but I know you'll be just fine without me" in that smile.

I don't know whether this makes sense, but I've been thinking that Frodo's feelings concerning Sam and the others might possibly be inverse of the other emotions he's experiencing before and after the farewells. While in the Shire, his state of mind may have caused him to believe, irrationally, that he was a burden to Sam and the others, that they'd be better off without him..... That might even be a motivating factor for him actually deciding to leave. But once his mind clears and the weight of depression lifts as he enters the ship, he should finally feel and truly believe that this is *not* so; - that in fact he is causing them real grief by leaving, that they sincerely wanted him to stay with them - he wasn't a burden. And so, his sorrow should increase at leaving them behind, at the same time as his joyful certainty that he's doing the right thing for himself intensifies. But as you say, Achila, - he seems to immediately move beyond that, and to understand that not only is he doing what's right for him, he's also realistic enough to know that his friends will be all right in the saved Shire, "not being torn in two", despite the fact that each of them will always miss the others.

The Grey Havens is a beautiful scene, wonderfully acted, especially by Elijah, who has to communicate what happens to Frodo without the staple tears of parting scenes. That tearless, weary, detached, and yet so very moving expression.... and the amazing range of emotions till that beautiful smile at the end! :)


Edit: ROTK EE DVD spoiler!!!
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I was sniffing around CoE, which I *very* rarely do, and happened to come across this picture. As far as I can see, it's the first visual proof that Elijah had to run in a crowd in his orc armour!!

It's been confirmed by PJ that the forced orc march is in the EE, and this *must* be a picture from it, wouldn't you say?!? Take a look!

I'm loving all the thoughts expressed in the last few posts, Frodo's inner light, and beginnning to understand that where he is going there is healing.

Maeglian, I think you're right that Frodo believed himself a burden to his friends. But even if he hadn't been up to the moment of his departure, he would have become one had he stayed, and subsequently died.

I'm not sure of that picture, Maeg. The helmet is right, but the armor is subtly different from in this pic:Sam and Frodo in orc armor (http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/9461?q=frodo+and+sam&g=1&r=0&tn=12&ts=0)
Maybe part of the armor has been removed?

Honey!

IThe Grey Havens is a beautiful scene, wonderfully acted, especially by Elijah, who has to communicate what happens to Frodo without the staple tears of parting scenes. That tearless, weary, detached, and yet so very moving expression.... and the amazing range of emotions till that beautiful smile at the end! :)

Another thing to keep in mind is that the Grey Havens scene was filmed fairly early on during principal photography, before any of the actors had really developed the relationships they would have later. In fact, Ian McKellen commented on that -- that they had to do this scene early because his time to be in NZ was shortened due to filming X-Men, and he wished it had been later so he would've been more emotionally attached to them (and portrayed it in Gandalf's goodbyes to the hobbits). So for Elijah to communicate all of what he did -- this very layered performance -- with these people he didn't know that well becomes even more astounding.

Beautiful thoughts on Frodo’s inner light and his emotions as he walks towards the ship at the Grey Havens.

I'm intrigued by Frolijah as he's walking toward the ship. He gets what I would call a "puzzled" look on his face. Does anyone have a take on that? Is he already starting to feel a change, and doesn't know what to make of it?

I think I agree with Mariole:

I have always adored that quizzical look on Frodo's face as he moves towards Gandalf, just before offering his hand and boarding the ship. I felt that he was being drawn towards something that he didn't understand, yet knew was right for him. Not a moth to a flame (which can be a destructive compulsion), but as if he was answering a call from deep inside himself, responding to the spiritual resonance of this place he didn't know, but knew he was going to live in. I loved that look; it felt so very right to me. The Shire is no longer right for Frodo; he must move ahead. Frolijah's expression there let me know that, even though Frodo might not understand it, it was the best possible destiny for him. He will be welcome. He belongs there.

And Maeglian:

He's sad, exhausted, depressed and alienated..... and then, as he turns from ME and moves towards the ship, and his future, he realizes, and actually starts believing, with dawning visible surprise: ME is behind, he's seen the dreaded moment of farewell through; - something new lies ahead, and it is the right thing for him! The feeling intensifies as he walks onboard, and culminates in that beautiful smile from the ship: "I'll be well. Do not grieve for me; - I have to move on. I love you; - but this is my destiny, and I can feel I'm already on the path to healing."

The Grey Havens is a beautiful scene, wonderfully acted, especially by Elijah, who has to communicate what happens to Frodo without the staple tears of parting scenes. That tearless, weary, detached, and yet so very moving expression.... and the amazing range of emotions till that beautiful smile at the end!

At the GH Frodo is so sad and serene, yet as he walks towards the ship I detect a sense of wonder and increasing anticipation and hope in his eyes. This is the moment all that has gone before has been leading to; this is his destiny, and I think it has taken some courage for Frodo to face up to and accept it - now he embraces it.

I’m always undecided as to which gifs I should post, but as we’re discussing this particular moment I thought I’d include this one here. It’s culled considerably from the original in order for it to upload to imagemagician, and I’ve slowed it down to make it easier for us to study Frodo’s expression.

Frodo leaving (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Leave.gif)

Achilla. Yes, I think the GH was filmed very early on, and (IIRC) this also had a lot to do with Ian Holm’s schedule. Considering this, all the actors delivered wonderful performances. I’m sure I read somewhere recently that they filmed the GH scene, and wrapped up, and then it was discovered that there had been a fault with the cameras, so they had to go back and re-shoot it all the following day - and this is what we see in the film. Of course, I could possibly have dreamt this! But as you say, Elijah’s performance is truly stunning here, as he gives us that sad, haunted, older, post-quest Frodo; a Frodo who has reached the end of his journey - when in reality it had barely started. I am in total awe of our beloved Frolijah! :)

Maeg - thanks for that orc-army pic. The helmet certainly looks like Frodo's, and according to reports that scene was definitely filmed. Looking forward to seeing that in the EE.

Don't forget that, while the GH shoot was early in the schedule for Ian McKellen, it was not so early for the hobbits. He didn't start filming until January, and the Grey Havens were filmed a week or two after he arrived in NZ. Everyone else had been around since August, so they had already spent more time on the set than a normal film would have for its entire principal photography.

Thank you everybody for the lovely comments, that's exactly why I come to The Faculty. To help me see things I haven't seen or picked up or to see another view on a certain scene (see it from a different angle).

I really love seeing how Frodo looks so pale and quite serene, while the other three hobbits are tearful and look devastated. It's so perfect. I've seen a lot of people say that this is a death scene and I don't quite agree with that (Frodo is not really dying there) but it's a farewell scene. He has to leave behind him a huge part of his life, his loved ones,... (stating the obvious here :rolleyes: )
From my experiences with relatives who have died after a long struggle,...the scene was perfect. The big emotions don't come from the person dying, but they come from those who are left behind.
When I see Frodo step towards the ship, I have often wondered what he was thinking.
At the GH Frodo is so sad and serene, yet as he walks towards the ship I detect a sense of wonder and increasing anticipation and hope in his eyes. This is the moment all that has gone before has been leading to; this is his destiny, and I think it has taken some courage for Frodo to face up to and accept it - now he embraces it
I always thought that when he was walking towards the ship, he still feels a bit unsure,... To me, he seems to encourage himself after saying goodbye to his life in his beloved Shire and his friends. He seems to be convincing himself that this is a good thing, it's the right thing to do and he'll be fine. Once he's on the ship, he's past this. Quite often the anticipation of a dramatic change in your life is more stressful than the change itself.
Also, I found it really typical that Bilbo smiled when he had to step towards the ship and said "I feel that I'm ready for another adventure" (or something like that) and Frodo had a more serious look on his face. To me, that seemed so typical for Frodo and Bilbo.

My brother-in-law has a tv room: big screen tv and a couple of days ago, he installed a surround sound system. Fantastic! A mini-theater.
When the elefaunts step on the soldiers, the sound this makes is awesome...even the image shakes a bit when the foot of the giant animal comes crushing down.
Anyway, my niece and her nephews (other side of the family) were watching ROTK. She's 8yrs old (I still think that this might be a bit too young to watch LOTR, but it's not my decision). Anyway, I sat next to my niece and we were about to watch the Mount Doom scene.
At a certain point, we see Sam and Frodo walking in their orc costumes. One nephew asked which one was Frodo. Another said "the first one". My niece replied "Nah, it must be the last one...when you're really tired, you're not leading the way, are you? No, you drag behind...so, it's the last one with Sam walking in front of him". The nephew was a bit annoyed with her answer and the fact that she actually thought about this a bit more so he said "it's only a movie, you know" (I didn't comment too much about the fact that you can easily tell it's Frodo because he has a different orc costume)
After the "Ring Of Fire" speech, when Sam picks up Frodo...my niece whispered to me "Ooooh, I want to help Sam carry Frodo" :)
When we see Frodo tied up by the wrists in the tower, she giggled and said to me "Frodo's naked". Then she saw his pants and added a bit disappointed "oh no, he has pants on" (she's only 8...what will she be like when she's a teenager) :p
It was fun hearing the comments of those kids. My niece kept on asking me why Frodo got so tired, what was the power of the ring and how does this work , why is Frodo carrying the ring?
"You see a giant eye", a nephew asked , " but does Sauron have a brain? He doesn't, does he? You can only see his eye?"
We also talked about different sorts of courage: the sort of courage Aragorn, Gimli or Legolas have in battle scenes or the sort of courage Frodo has when carrying the ring to Mt. Doom. She didn't quite understand it. She asked why a little creature like Frodo has to carry the ring and why not somebody big like Legolas or Aragorn but I explained it a bit and she seemed to understand it a bit better.

What's the right age for her to start reading the book? She's a bit too young now, but when should I encourage it? Any ideas?

As Frodo is leaving for the Gray Havens the song that should have been playing should have been: "One Love" by Pat Benatar.

It fits Frodo in general perfectly. It sounds so much like his true, manly essence.

Coming out of lurk mode for a moment to say the recent discussions of Frodo and the Gray Havens have been most interesting--thanks to all! I think I have commented before that reminding myself that Frodo has been enriched, ennobled, enlightened by his battle and his suffering somehow makes his leaving a little easier to bear. As someone said on another Frodo thread I frequent, he has "outgrown" Middle Earth. If you think how much he deserves the peace of healing, and a place among the very great, then perhaps you can see a bit of awe in Elijah's face as well, in that gorgeous scene in the film. Ennobled, but still too humble to quite take in that he really has earned this blessing--that's our Frodo.

And Whiteling, your portrait is breathtaking!

Quick answer to Moondancer before I must run off again--I'm sure my younger daughter was no more than 7 when I first read LOTR out loud to her and her sister (who would have been 10 or 11 at the time). I will admit that I left out some descriptive passages, songs, and poems when I did that, and the part about the Gondorian soldiers' heads being thrown over the wall. I stopped sometimes for explanations, recaps, etc. A year later I read it to them again and left out much less (but still the heads). Then right after FOTR came out, some months after that, they asked me to read the whole thing again and this time I left nothing out.

I have to say that reading it aloud is a wonderful, wonderful experience. I wish we all had time enough that I could do it again. But now that my kids are 12 and 15 they are hardly ever home.

Can you read it aloud to your neice? What sort of things is she reading now--chapter books? Harry Potter? Lemony Snickert? If she is going to be reading LOTR on her own, perhaps 12 or 13 is a better age to handle the sheer length and appreciateunderstand the language enough to stick with it. That's how old I was when I read it myself for the first time, back before the Earth's crust cooled.

My niece is into Harry Potter! I gave her bedsheets with Harry Potter on it for her birthday and she was in 7th heaven after that.
Also, I'd like to encourage her to read some of the Flemish and Dutch authors.
One of my favourite (if not the favourite) youth authors is Thea Beckman. She died recently, but she wrote fantastic books with a deep historical setting. My favourite book is "Kruistocht in spijkerbroek" = "Crussade in denim" (about a 16yr old boy who gets to timetravel and gets caught in the Middle Ages in a crussade - he needs to travel to a certain place to find the spot where he can travel back to our time and he goes along with the crussade to get there). Another series of books of her is a trilogy about the 100 yr war between France and England (and about things like the Black Death). This is really an awesome series: heartbreakingly beautiful.

So, she might be ready for Tolkien? She's still no avid reader although her parents and her aunt encourage it. She now reads mainly comic books like Kuifje (Tintin), Jommeke, Suske en Wiske and other Belgian comic books. (stripverhalen).
Her mother (my sis) doesn't really like the fantasy genre but her dad is a big LOTR fan, so he might read it to her (and her aunt when she has to babysit).
Maybe it's better to start with The Hobbit but besides Sam (she whispered to me that he's a fantastic friend to Frodo), Frodo,...she really loves Aragorn and Legolas,...so LOTR might interest her more.

Thanks for all the GH comments. That's how I wanted to "read" that expression, so it's nice to find other people are seeing it that way, too (and all expressed in such beautiful words--and Blossom's beautiful gif :) ). It adds to my appreciation of another shot that I absolutely love (better even than the smile). It's as Frodo begins to face the camera, before he smiles, or, you might say, the very beginning of the smile. IMHO, one of the emotions here is surprise--happy or even joyful surprise, as if just stepping onto the ship is changing him in ways he didn't expect. I think that fits with his gradually dawning awareness of the future he's moving toward. This is a small version, but at least shows what shot I'm talking about:

http://www.frodolivesin.us/oneexpression/43348590.jpg

(Elijah must do more of those "turns toward the camera" than any other actor--not that I'm complaining ;) Probably because directors realize he can.)

None of this is how I've pictured the scene in the book, but IMHO it works beautifully for the movie. Again, as the movies do so often, taking something from the book and making it more visual. I do believe we're seeing the "inner Frodo" there. :) And Elijah did seem to have an awareness of this aspect of the story. In one interview he talked about how the hobbits were better off because of their experiences, even though they had to sacrifice some innocence for them. He then said, "You might even say Frodo was better off," which is something I think a lot of readers don't quite "get." IMHO, Elijah's understanding of that is put to wonderful use in this scene.

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Lady Wendy (and anyone else)--Please link to any pages on my site as much as you want. Links are Very Good Things :) .

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I'm not ignoring the discussion of introducing children to LotR--but as someone basically ignorant about children, I'm afraid I don't have anything helpful to add. :o

That's a gorgeous cap, tg -- do you have the full sized one on your site? And speaking of which, I'm off to pimp it on my lj.

tg, do you mind if I swipe that Grey Havens smile picture to use as an avatar at my LJ? It is a perfect expression, and a perfect size for an icon/avatar. That entire sequence as Frodo steps onto the ship, turns around and slowly his face changes, first to surprise and then into the most beautiful, understanding and gentle smile, with the slight nod just before he turns away.....the first time I saw that in the theater, I was so grateful to PJ for giving this gift of hope to the audience. Frolijah's face tells us that he is going to be alright; an assurance I really needed at that moment. I am so very glad that the movie ended in that way. The book leaves me grieving and heartsick, which is certainly powerful, but I didn't want to feel so bereaved at the end of the films.

Moondancer, that sounds like a plan to me! If your brother-in-law starts reading LOTR to your neice, he'll soon know if she's still too young. And if she's not, you'll have all the pleasure of helping out whenever you visit! I wish you well---let me know what happens. ;)

tgshaw--second the motion for a large-size picture of that beautiful cap! Please and thank you! :)

Moondancer,
I've seen a lot of people say that this is a death scene

I know...isn't it daft that almost everyone who didn't read the book, just assumed that the whole Grey Havens scene was just a euphemism for Frodo's imminent death - due largely, I feel, to Gandalf's little speech to Pippin...
Whereas, on the other hand, all the people who did read the book were annoyed that Gandalf's "Far Green Country" speech to Pippin on the battlements of Minas Tirith, seemed to indicate that dying would be very much as indicated by the whole Grey Havens sequence, thus confusing everyone, and causing Book-lovers like me to have to endlessly explain to non-book-readers that "No, Frodo, didn't die at the Grey Havens...he's off to a far better place for him, for some nice Elvish-style spiritual healing, so that he could first of all live and then, at a much later date, die a happy Hobbit, when it was his rightful time to die, and not before... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Sheesh, P.J. just didn't know how much confusion he would cause... although I seem to recall that Phillippa Boyens may have had a lot to do with this incorrect interpretation, methinks...am I right ?

As for your neice being old enough to read LOTR..I was also going to suggest reading it to her in small doses, maybe...and also to introduce her to Tolkien's writing style via "the Hobbit" first...so this is obviously the best course of action...maybe she could read "The Hobbit" for herself, whilst having you read her LOTR in single-chapter installments, with discussions where necessary...

Tgshaw,
You are most gracious in allowing copious linkage to your fab site...I know that the ladies at Tolkien Online, ( who, I believe - because a little bird told me - Flourish may know as well as me..but under another name !!! ...am I not right, Flourish ?... ;) :D :k ) really appreciate the wonderful things to be found therein...

By the way, your avatar-sized pic of Frodo, turning around at the Grey Havens, is almost exactly the same as the one I made for me to use at the Middle-Earth Forum at the Empire site...Here's the link to prove it !!! :-

**link removed**

( Oh, you can read the thread if you like...;) :rolleyes: )

Achila, Flourish, and all--I actually swiped the small pic of the beginning of the smile from the "One Expression" collage, so, yes, there's definitely a full-sized cap. Here's the direct URL to the page:
http://www.frodolivesin.us/oneexpression/id125.htm

Looking at it again just now reminds me of how much better the full one is :) . He's so wonderfully just on the verge of... something. It's almost as if the smile is aching to break out, and he's just beginning to realize it...

Goldenberry, certainly you're welcome to use the small one as an avatar--I never feel as if I own any of these pics. For bandwidth's sake, just please save to your hard drive first, as the one posted in the thread is still linked back to the collage :) . -- BTW, since I was trying to get a variety of sizes and shapes for the page, I've cropped off more hair (pun unintended but not unnoticed ;) ) than I usually would for an avatar. So, if you want another version, let me know.

Blossom, thank you for the lovely gif! :) It's amazing to think that Elijah is actually walking towards a huge crowd of people and equipment probably one meter away from him, and yet manages to act those nuances so wonderfully. I never stop wondering about how film actors in general, and Elijah in particular manages to DO that!?


Oooh, yes! Movie!Frodo has left us with so extremely prolific avatar material (especially for the larger LJ avatars) that the real difficulty is choosing the right one.


almost everyone who didn't read the book, just assumed that the whole Grey Havens scene was just a euphemism for Frodo's imminent death - due largely, I feel, to Gandalf's little speech to Pippin.

I'm not certain that those who didn't read the book would connect Gandalf's speech to Pippin with the Grey Havens, since they've no reason to know that Gandalf's words are what book Frodo sees after he's taken the straight road? What non-readers have is basically the repeated insistence that Arwen will die if she *doesn't* leave - that hints strongly at a life on the other side of the sea...... Of course, there are the "Into the West" lyrics, and some might connect those to the ending scene and the combination of elven ships/silver glass, but still I'd say the films leave the non-reader audience with a *very* ambiguous ending, open for interpretations in many directions. I think that is a good thing as far as it makes people discuss the ending or even read the book to find out more! :)

I've many friends who haven't read the books and who have been interested in discussing the film ending with me, since I'm known as a Tolkien nut and presumably can explain what was *really* going on there. Their own interpretations have ranged from "Frodo has turned into an elf" to taking Bilbo's words about going on another adventure literally (AKA sequel upcoming!) to seeing it as a metaphor for dying.

Have any of you seen Mad Magazine's RotK parody, btw? I thought that one was really funny throughout. It has Frodo on the elven ship adressing the audience and obviously conveying the film audiences confusion: "Must leave. Forever. Boat. Why? No idea. No explanation. Very sad!" :D

I do agree though that for book readers, the combination of the Gandalf/Pippin scene and the credit lyrics and the book text hints very strongly at the Grey Havens as a metaphor for the death of Frodo. Philippa Boyen's words to reviewers/journalists about Frodo "essentially dying there" is consistent with that. But then, of course, one gets into a whole philosophical discussion of what it is to "die" - certainly Frodo is leaving his friends and his world forever and in that sense will be dead to them....

There was some discussion of this back in the RotK forum, both in the RotK spoilers thread and the Grey Havens thread, some while back. Very interesting topic. :)

What?! Something ambiguous?? In a movie based on Tolkien?? The very idea!! :lol:
It's been a l-o-o-n-g day. :rolleyes:

LOL! :D

Tg, you're *so* right - we love discussing all that wonderful challenging ambiguity. :) ....and discussing a certain actor who manages to convey multilayered ambiguity like noone else, of course! ;)

...and after they all got there, Frodo got a quick trim, a change of clothing (elven tights are rather baggy at the knees for him, after all), and they PARTIED!!!!

:::: running ::::

....a certain actor who manages to convey multilayered ambiguity like noone else, of course! ;)
One reason he does such a wonderful job with the material, IMHO. :)

I don't know how many people venture over to the JRRT "side" of my website, but if anyone wants to read a profoundly geeky essay :rolleyes: on the far green country description(s):
A Far Green Country: Take Two (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id245.htm)

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Y'know, I'm totally ignorant of "LJs" :o . I've clicked on people's names in their posts who've mentioned having one, and I don't see a link to a homepage or anything, so I assume it's something different--maybe personal, so no external visiting wanted?? I'm very confused. :confused:

Y'know, I'm totally ignorant of "LJs" :o . I've clicked on people's names in their posts who've mentioned having one, and I don't see a link to a homepage or anything, so I assume it's something different--maybe personal, so no external visiting wanted?? I'm very confused. :confused:

In my particular case, my lj name isn't exactly the same as my Faculty name so if you tried to find me and couldn't, that's why. It's aquila0212 (which, btw, is all the same name -- it's the genus of the golden eagle...yep...biology geek). So the link is www.livejournal.com/users/ and then aquila0212.

In my particular case, my lj name isn't exactly the same as my Faculty name so if you tried to find me and couldn't, that's why.
Well, that's not what I meant... I wouldn't have any idea how to look for any LJs at all, much less one under a particular name :eek: !! I didn't know til this moment that there was something actually called livejournal.com--I thought it was an entire "class" of web document, not a specific site (or are there multiple sites?). I really have to emphasize my ignorance here, I'm afraid.

What I meant was the name at the top of a post here at KD--If you click on my name, one of the choices (besides "send tgshaw a private message, etc.) is "visit tgshaw's home page." I thought people with LJs might have a link there, but that doesn't seem to be so.

Well, that's not what I meant. I wouldn't have any idea how to look for any LJs at all, much less one under a particular name :eek: !! I didn't know til this moment that there was something actually called livejournal.com--I thought it was an entire "class" of web document, not a specific site (or are there multiple sites?). I really have to emphasize my ignorance here, I'm afraid.

I didn't know much about LJs until recently either, and it was only because my friend talked me into it that I have one at all. There are several blog communities and LJ is just one of them.


What I meant was the name at the top of a post here at KD--If you click on my name, one of the choices (besides "send tgshaw a private message, etc.) is "visit tgshaw's home page." I thought people with LJs might have a link there, but that doesn't seem to be so. Is this because people just haven't thought of it, or because that kind of link doesn't "work" for LJs, or because it's more private than a website?

Well, I can't speak for everyone but I hadn't even thought of adding it there. And mine is fairly new anyway. I will go ahead and do that.

I've never been inside this world at all--it's completely foreign to me. I've heard of "blogging," but I don't know if the two are at all similar or related.

Yep -- as I mentioned above, there are several web logs (blogs) around -- lj is just one kind.


As you can tell, I'm totally at sea about this. I've just ignored it til now, but so many people here have been talking about their LJs that I'm beginning to be afraid it might be impolite to not visit them--but I don't know how to get there! (Yes, my hormones are messed up today. How could you tell? :o :( .)

And I have no job, luv, so I'm doing just about as well! But anyway, it is surely not impolite not to visit, although I'd love you to. I didn't give the direct link in the last post because tho there's nothing on mine that's not G-rated, there may be some people's icons in their comments that are not.

Tgshaw,
Yes...I know what you mean...you'd think, wouldn't you, that the people who have a Live Journal would link to them in their Profile here at KD...they are, after all, in possession of their own webpage...but, for some reason, they don't always, and I think that the reason for that may be that LJs are used by people for different reasons. Often, they are posting highly personal stuff that they don't necessarily want all and sundry reading about and commenting on...( in which case, why don't they just have a personal written Diary at home ? )

However, a lot of LOTR fans post loads of stories and poems and artwork that they have done on their Live Journals, and consequently there is potentially loads of very interesting stuff out there in LJ-land...

I have just recently been lurking around a few Live Journals that belong to people I have actually met at KD - ( The London Faction !! ) and they all have Friendlists, with links to other LJ users, which means that one Journal can lead to hundreds more, and it is fascinating to just go from link tolink, looking at pics and reading fanfiction, and opinions and ideas that various people have had and just jotted down...

Whether you have a Journal or not seems to depend on how much you have to offer the general Fandom Community....for instance, your own illustrious site could, conceivably, be a wonderful LJ, if you added a personal page updated every so often, with all the comings and goings of your daily life...along with links to other LJs that have stuff that interests you, for their LOTR/Elijah content...
I am currently considering whether to bother getting one of my own, or just continue lurking around other people's :rolleyes: :D

Yes...I know what you mean...you'd think, wouldn't you, that the people who have a Live Journal would link to them in their Profile here at KD...

Actually, the reason that most people don't link to their LJ's is that if they do, most of the time the link gets removed by the mods. :( Since LJ-land is pretty much a free-for-all, it's hard to keep the link within the PG-13 guidelines of KD. You might not use naughty words or post racy fanfic in your LJ posts, but people might in their replies. And then there's the whole issue of what people on your friends-lists are posting (and linking to, as well). :D

Whereas, on the other hand, all the people who did read the book were annoyed that Gandalf's "Far Green Country" speech to Pippin on the battlements of Minas Tirith, seemed to indicate that dying would be very much as indicated by the whole Grey Havens sequence

Not quite all. Long before the movies came out, my son believed the Grey Havens WERE meant to represent Frodo passing into death, and he just didn't see what the fuss was about when the movie came out, as it corresponded to his long-held belief based on his reading of the book. And I agree with Maeglian, that it's unlikely the non-readers would put Gandalf's speech together with the Grey Havens anyway. (I don't agree with my son, but his opinion was firmly set long before the topic came up, and I think he's as entitled to his interpretation as I am.)

I wasn't annoyed because McKellan did such a wonderful job delivering the lines, and Boyd in reacting, that I was very moved by the scene. And PJ & Co. did not infuse the Grey Havens scene with even a hint of death - showing Frodo healing, rather than fading, as he boarded the ship. I look on the 'far green country...silver glass' as a shifting line, anyway, which has changed its meaning from book to movie, as many other lines did.

And LOL at tgshaw - what do you mean there's ambiguity? You mean that Tolkien might have INTENDED for people to walk away from the books with some differences of opinion about what things meant???? :D :D (And how bad was PJ to let some of that ambiguity and complexity creep into the movies as well..... :D ;) )

Narya,
Actually, the reason that most people don't link to their LJ's is that if they do, most of the time the link gets removed by the mods.

Oh, of course...how daft of me !! You are absolutely right, there are many facets to LJ-land which go as far beyond the PG13 rating as it's possible to go...
Why didn't I think of that ? :rolleyes:

And, as you say, the links will get you to non-PG13 rated stuff, even if the LJ you are reading is OK...Moderating a site like this must be a nightmare sometimes, I must say !!

And I agree with Maeglian, that it's unlikely the non-readers would put Gandalf's speech together with the Grey Havens anyway.

Actually, I've seen quite a few threads at Tolkien Online and Empire which are started by non-book readers who are confused by this very scene...they have put the two together even though it really isn't connected in the film by anything more than an appearance of light on the horizon and the lyrics to Annie's song...people seem to link this together with Gandalf's speech far more often than you may realise ! God knows why !! I think that people are putting two and two together and getting five...
( As is usual, in a case like this, I have done a search at both sites but can't seem to find the exact threads I am looking for...at the Empire site, people seem to have the annoying habit of calling their thread something like "Question?" which tells you nothing at all.... )

Not everyone does assume this, of course, but it IS amazing how many people who haven't read the book, DO assume, or at least make a guess, that Our Fro is going off to die, and the end of the ship's journey will be Heaven...it just isn't made clear in the film at all, and, yes, there are probably many people who have read the book, like your son, who make the same assumption...maybe it's because this is the only way we can make sense of it, sort of a point of reference to our own cultural beliefs ?

Isn't it amazing that Elijah is the type of guy who can say things like how he loves that women have two breast and its amazing and NOT sound like a complete jerk?

On the Other Hand, isn't it Evil Elijah who yells his opinions in movie theaters about movies or directors he doesn't like?

He reminds me of the old saw: "Well You wanted a Man didn't You, and You certainly got one." :lol:

He makes me laugh. How about You all? :confused:

In my opinion, one reason why many people do see it as a death scene must have to do with the connection they make between Frodo leaving on a ship and the mythological tale about Charon the ferryman.

I'm no expert on mythology, but doesn't everybody know the tales of this ferryman (In Dutch: veerman)
I certainly remember hearing rather scary stories about the "veerman" and that you have to put a coin on each eye of the dead person, so this person can pay his or her passage in a boat to the "other" side.


In Greek and Roman mythology the river Styx was the boundary between life and the underworld. Charon the ferryman would guide the dead for payment of a coin. This became used in many burial rituals by either placing a coin on the tongue or eyes to pay for the ride. The opposite bank was guarded by the vicious three-headed dog Cerabus. The underworld was ruled by Hades (right), who was also known by the Roman name (Pluto). He was the son of Cronus and Rhea and brother to Zeus (Jupiter) and Poseidon (Neptune). His wife was Persephone (Proserpina), the daughter of Demeter (Ceres). The dead were judged by Minos, Rhadamanthus and Aeacus. Hades came to mean the underworld itself and not just the god who presided there.

Moondancer, yes! Charon the ferryman is a haunting image.
And I'd like to add that even earlier the observation of nature showed our ancestors the daily "death" of the sun (and all the other stars) in the west. No wonder "West" became the synonym for "Death" in our collective subconscious.

Love the GH discussion, very moving (and so is Blossom's gif :k ) - thank you!

tg--thank you for the link to that beautiful screen cap! And since I don't think I've said it in a while, many thanks for your equally beautiful website.

Lady Wendy, yes-- ;) --I'm Zazinka at TORC, and now at West of the Moon as well.

RL is still being persistently...... well, persistent, but I'd just like to add that, in regard to film Gray Havens, FRODO LIVES. :rolleyes:

Isn't it surprising that viewers who are savvy enough to have found Philippa Boyens' remark that "Frodo is essentially dying there" would NOT be interested enough to pick up the books and find out how elliptical/metaphorical her comment really was?

Though, to be truthful, I suppose I am way too far gone to make rational judgments about wnat Tolkien newbies might be like. ;)

First of all, my apologies for my insecurity attack yesterday--especially to those who caught it before my embarrassed editing :o . I'm really not fishing for invitations to everyone's live journals (LJ = live journals; see how much I've learned ;) ?). It was just beginning to feel like it was something I was supposed to understand, and was afraid there was something I should be doing that I wasn't (and that everyone assumed I knew I should be doing it, so why wasn't I :rolleyes: ?). Especially with people making such nice comments about my website (((Faculty))), I thought perhaps I should be reciprocating (socially inept? who, me :eek: :rolleyes: ?). I'll very happily go back to not worrying about it :) , since I still don't know how to locate them. Thanks for the patient explanations. :k

On another assumption:

...they have put the two together even though it really isn't connected in the film by anything more than an appearance of light on the horizon and the lyrics to Annie's song...people seem to link this together with Gandalf's speech far more often than you may realise !
One [positive!] phenomenon about RotK is how many people stay to watch the closing credits (I've been known to tell strangers who are getting up to leave, "Oh, you really need to stay and see these portraits," and they do :p ). So I think more people are hearing the song than would be true with most movies--and, of course, hearing it almost immediately after Frodo's departure scene. The imagery's very strong in both Gandalf's speech and in the song, with many of the lyrics matching exactly. So I don't think it's surprising that people would connect the two--IMHO, it seems to be the intent of the writers. And both places link the imagery with death--Gandalf explicitly and the song implicitly ("Dream of the ones who went before. They are calling..."; "You're only sleeping"; "All souls pass"). IMHO it makes even more sense since we know that the song (and the movie) are dedicated to PJ and Fran's young friend who died. I guess it could be asked if they let their "personal life" affect how they interpret the story--but that sounds a lot like Tolkien's definition of applicability, so IMVHO it would seem somehow against his intent to deny it to them.

Not everyone does assume this, of course, but it IS amazing how many people who haven't read the book, DO assume, or at least make a guess, that Our Fro is going off to die, and the end of the ship's journey will be Heaven...it just isn't made clear in the film at all, and, yes, there are probably many people who have read the book, like your son, who make the same assumption...maybe it's because this is the only way we can make sense of it, sort of a point of reference to our own cultural beliefs ?
Another thing I've found interesting about all three movies is that people end up asking some of the same questions, or making some of the same assumptions, us old codgers had after reading the book back in the 1960's. That's also been true of some people who ran out on December 20, 2001, and devoured LotR with no other background.

I think it's hard for us now to turn back the clock; even a lot of LotR readers who haven't read the Sil know something about it, or have heard things from it used as explanations for things that happen in LotR. Perfectly valid, of course! That's how Tolkien wanted it to be. But if you completely eliminate any knowledge of the Sil or of Tolkien's letters, including the knowledge that readers today might operate out of without even being aware of it (if that makes any sense at all :confused: ), what happens at the Grey Havens is much more ambiguous (IMHO--maybe I'm just trying to make excuses for how little we understood back then :rolleyes: ).

Apologies to all who've seen me say this before (many times, maybe :rolleyes: ) -- but all we knew about the West was that it's where the Elves went, and we knew the Elves lived forever. IIRC, the only time the Valar are mentioned is "May the Valar turn him aside," from one of Faramir's men regarding the mumak, and I don't remember ever connecting the word "Valinor" with that (I may be forgetting a mention). Elbereth was a deliciously tantalizing mystery, but we had no idea who she was or, even more, where she lived. The West was "Elvenhome" and "The Undying Lands," which seemed to go together since the Elves were immortal. So it was a pretty common assumption that Frodo was going to some form of eternal life, although we didn't know what kind, and so his sailing into the West was a parallel for death (I still have that comment from my junior high days pencilled into the "purple emu" edition). I don't have enough evidence to say it was the overall, general interpretation, but it is where the phrase "Frodo Lives" came from (based on the assumption he was going to an eternal life), so it must have been pretty widespread.

Interesting idea that we came up with this conclusion in order to fit it into our cultural beliefs--That's probably very true, and I wouldn't be surprised at all if it's still true today.

-----

[Shadowcat: My thinking is that someone who can go into a store and declare, "I need porn and chocolate," must be in touch with both his masculine and feminine sides ;) .]

I'm no expert on mythology, but doesn't everybody know the tales of this ferryman (In Dutch: veerman)I certainly remember hearing rather scary stories about the "veerman" and that you have to put a coin on each eye of the dead person, so this person can pay his or her passage in a boat to the "other" side.

Very interesting that Charon, or someone similar, is a part of local tradition in Belgium to this day! He isn't so here in Norway, far as I know, not anymore at least - you'd have had to have read some Greek mythology to know about that. Which means most here will actually have heard about him in school, I believe.

However, the image of death as a ship voyage / taking ship to the realm of death is also firmly a part of the norse mythology.... and was reflected in actual burial rites..... with the Anglo-Saxons as well. Mythology tells of the god Balder being burnt with his (floating) ship after he'd been killed. There are historic documents proving similar burials occured in real life, there are numerous old burial grounds where stones have been set to mark the place in the form of a ship's hull; - and there are the burial mounds where the deceased was interred with an actual ship. The Sutton Hoo burial was one such, and several grave mounds in Norway have yielded wonderful viking ships, the most beautiful of which is the Oseberg ship - built ca. 800 AD, and buried with a lot of fabulous and varied grave goods. There are so many interesting aspects of the Oseberg find (one of which that the person of rank being buried in the ship was a woman!) that I could write the longest post you ever saw.... but instead I'll just leave a link here to a site with a couple of pictures of the ship, which was buried in the ground for a 1000 years:

http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/osebergskipet.htm

So I would agree that there may very well be something in our "common subconscious" equating dying with a ship journey.

However, I've wondered, when newbies interpret the Grey Havens as Frodo dying - if that hasn't got more to do with a couple of other triggers: The sorrow of those left behind, the beatific smile of Frodo which is the last glimpse of him, the intense light that the ship sails into, ultimately turning white: All that reminds me of Christian-based "dying - going to heaven - finding peace there" imagery.

I doubt that the song lyrics will have anything to do with the interpretation of the scene in non-English speaking countries. I've discovered that people do not listen to the lyrics, even if they understand English very well - they just zone them out. But I also think that the lyrics do in fact speak of Frodo's death. The lyrics are filled to brimming with such imagery, just as tg points out. So personally I've included "Into the West"with the other things that lead to my thinking that P. Boyens was being literal when she said Frodo was essentially dying. I also cannot see any difficulty in accepting that as her, Fran and PJ's valid interpretation..... The *film* is still plenty ambiguous, and that is as it should be.

And the Grey Havens scene is utterly lovely. :)

In fact, Elijah himself said, with respect to the end of ROTK, that "Frodo is, for all intents and purposes, dead." I think this may have been in connection with questions about whether there could be a sequel (perish the thought!) and if Frodo could appear in it. But I don't think he meant this literally. Frodo is dead in the sense that he no longer exists in Middle Earth and could not be a player in any further stories about the Fellowship (unless it's a story about Frodo's life in the West -- hey, wouldn't THAT make a great movie?!).

Coming from an English Lit major with a speciality in medieval British lit, I loved rereading JRRT after getting my degree. One of the most prevalent metaphors in medieval lit is the paradisical land beyond a body of water (a stream, river, or sea, depending on the author) where the dear departed reside, visited by the dreaming narrator who seeks answers and/or assistance to cope with his grief at the loss of the departed one. At the end of the dream, the narrator is left with the hope of joining the loved one there in that paradise after death.

Thomas Malory used this imagery for Avalon, the land to which the dying Arthur sailed until Britain needed him again. JRRT changed this to Elvenhome for Middle Earth. The Halls of Mandos, IMO, were more closely related to Valhalla, the Vikings' afterlife. (As a sidenote, Lothlorien can be seen as an earthly version of the paradise reached after crossing streams, where the land becomes dreamlike and questions are answered.)

However, I've wondered, when newbies interpret the Grey Havens as Frodo dying - if that hasn't got more to do with a couple of other triggers: The sorrow of those left behind, the beatific smile of Frodo which is the last glimpse of him, the intense light that the ship sails into, ultimately turning white: All that reminds me of Christian-based "dying - going to heaven - finding peace there" imagery.
Interesting that neither the smile nor the intense light are in the book, although the description of the sailing there is so short that the smile could have taken place. I don't think, so, though, unless it was Frodo trying to put on a good face for his friends--the way the book has it written, it sounds as if Frodo's healing is meant to start at the end of the journey. In the book there's the light of Eärendil, but that's a very different thing--a symbol of hope throughout Tolkien's writing, and hope for Tolkien was a very different thing from its fulfillment. Even in his letters he never said that Frodo found healing before he died, just that it was hoped he would. I think that's one reason it took me awhile to warm up to that smile at the end. Besides the fact that it seemed a bit too "sappy," it was just too fast. But I also think that's why I like the expressions of puzzlement and dawning awareness that we've been talking about here lately; they do turn it into a process, instead of one quick zap of healing. I think I'd still have a major problem with that ultra-sweet smile, if that's all there was.

Another expression I find equally as interesting is the one after the smile. Innocent is not a label I'd put on that nod--it seems extremely knowing and worldwise to me. But that's exactly why I like it. IMHO, Frodo wouldn't return to a pre-quest type of innocence. He's moving beyond, not back. From what he's said, Elijah didn't intend that particular interpretation or, if he did, he doesn't remember it. But I'm not letting that change my "take" on it ;) --IMVHO, through all three movies there's a lot of the character that comes through Elijah without him precisely intending it. That's part of the gift. Elijah did make that statement that "You might even say Frodo is better off," for having experienced what he did, which wouldn't make much sense if he thought Frodo just went back to the state in which he started. So from Elijah's viewpoint, he's gained something, although I'm not sure what he would consider that something to be.

I thought of that same statement from Elijah when I read Achila's post. Because he does seem to believe Frodo gained something, I tend to agree that his statement about Frodo dying refers to his permanently leaving Middle-earth--especially with that addition of "for all intents and purposes."

Regarding a sequel, unless copyright laws are changed again, and assuming I understand them correctly :rolleyes: , LotR should be in the public domain somewhere around the middle of this century. I don't expect to be around then, but you young-uns may either have a field day or go screaming into the woods :p . Fanfic authors, start your computers ;) !

So personally I've included "Into the West"with the other things that lead to my thinking that P. Boyens was being literal when she said Frodo was essentially dying. I also cannot see any difficulty in accepting that as her, Fran and PJ's valid interpretation..... The *film* is still plenty ambiguous, and that is as it should be.
Ditto to all that :) . Is it just me, or do a lot of Tolkien lovers tend to let their heart get in the way of their inner purist sometimes ;) ? When I heard about the song and the movie being dedicated to young Cameron, I suddenly had no real problem with either the song lyrics or with Gandalf's words to Pippin. I just took it, as Maeg says, as their interpretation, as valid as any other. Because Tolkien expressly wanted readers to be able to apply the story to their own lives, I even thought, "Well, of course, that's how they'd see it." If they had taken out the ambiguity, and "forced" the audience to see it the way they did, that would be a different story, but IMHO they didn't do that.

And the Grey Havens scene is utterly lovely. :)
Completely.

Many of us have one and it is loads of fun and everything about Elwood seems to turn up there first. That's why I hang out there so much.

It seems many of us have journals but different names there. I just put mine as my webpage link here so if you click that you'll get there.

If everyone who has a journal puts that on their profile here as their webpage we can find each other.

My journal is 'friends only' but I'd love to add many of you from KD if I haven't already. Send me an email through the link on my journal info page and I'll let you in.

I have much Elwood goodness in there. :)

I can barely keep up with this conversation as I check in during a couple of spare moments in the last few days. But you guys are making me CRY!!! :eek: And though I was terribly and beautifully moved, I didn't even cry during GH in the movie!!! (though I actually am blinking back more and more each time I see it). (I know it might have been corny, but I wish that Into The West started before the credits. I would have been bawling so hard if there was music going as the ship sailed away. I would have died, probably ;) ).

As an aside-- what about the song "Use Well the Days"......? Where is that recorded?? I'm sure one of you have the lyrics???

Anyway--such beautiful beautiful commentary. But I'm sniffling away!! I miss Frodo!!! Tell me again.. Frodo Lives!! :cool: :z:

Oh--and TG...I also understand your confusion about livejournals. It seems as if many people who used to post on boards have retreated to their journals...but I like the boards where we can all come together and don't have to jump from one journal to the next (though like Lady Wendy, I do find it facinating to follow links--but it sure is easy to get lost!!)

EDIT: Simulposted with Hobmom!! So that's where you have been!! In Live Journal land. We don't see enough of you around here anymore!!! Don't you often have to have your own live journal before you can comment in someone else's? (nice to see you :) )

Thanks Lady Wendy for the link to the Fanfiction thread on Empire. Fun to get new recs.

And Mariole, YES. Interesting observation you made about memory...and it will be lovely to talk more in Seattle.

Oh--I forgot to tell you Whiteling, how gorgeous your drawing is. Thank you so much for sharing it with us!! magical!!

Alyon-
Don't you often have to have your own live journal before you can comment in someone else's?

Usually. But the journals are free.

I'm there most of the time because I have rounded up all the folks who post the latest Elijah news and pics.

I still check in here all the time and post as much as I can here too.

As an aside-- what about the song "Use Well the Days"......? Where is that recorded?? I'm sure one of you have the lyrics???

I think that was included on that special extended version of the soundtrack they released either late last year or early this year (it's the one that looks like it's in a leather case).

Don't you often have to have your own live journal before you can comment in someone else's?

No, you can comment anonymously but only if the lj owner has allowed it. I used to do this all the time before I had an lj of my own. The advantage to having one is that you can develop a friends list that returns to you the latest post from each "friend" or community you add to your list. That's very convenient and much easier than trying to remember to check every lj you fancy. And as Hobmom pointed out, the basic lj is free.

Alyon, here are the Lyrics to "Use well the days". Personally, I like the "Into the West" lyrics much better, because they seem to speak of the filmmakers' intentions and interpretations, using LotR-canon based imagery as a foundation to build the rest on.
"Use Well the Days", on the other hand, seem too much like a compilation of "beautiful LotR quotes we really wanted to use and couldn't find the right place for" - they don't make sense as a whole to me. Not that each sentence in itself isn't lovely........

"Use Well The Days (words by Fran Walsh)

Around the corner there may wait
A new road or a secret gate
And though I have passed them by
A day will come when I
Will take the hidden paths that run
West of the Moon, and East of the Sun.

I'm glad that you are here with me,
Here at the end of all things.
Night too shall be beautiful,
and blessed, and its fear shall pass.
I must leave, must cross the Sea,
The love you gave is all I take with me.

Use well the days, use well the days.
Turn your face to the green world,
Use well the days.

Seven stars and seven stones,
And one white tree from over
the Sundering Sea

Use well the days, use well the days.
Turn your face to the green world,
Use well the days"
.
.

Regarding a sequel...

Well, there *was* that USAToday article stating that NewLine had in fact the rights to make a free-standing sequel. I really, really, really hope they'll never try to do it, no matter how dire their straits.


Fanfic authors, start your computers! Oh, I guess you know they've started them a long time ago? ;) The Harem is one take on Frodo's life post Grey Havens, of course. :) And lately there have been several (IMO) good fics concerning Frodo's life post Grey Havens. They mostly deal with his ultimate reunion with Sam, across the sea. And no, I'm not trying to open up any new round of slash discussion, - fics do not necessarily have to portray their relationship as romantic to want to explore what happened if/when Sam ultimately left ME to follow Frodo. But once we're talking of ambiguous statments of Tolkien's; - there *is* the one in my sig from the epilogue in HOME. It's one of my favourite LotR related sentences, *because* of the ambiguity. It comes after Sam has been discussing with Rosie their past and their good fortunes, standing outside Bag End at night and looking at the stars, with their kids sleeping safely inside. And in the middle of this domestic bliss, as they go in.... Sam hears the sound of the sea that sank into his heart at the Grey Havens. What does it express, - regret, longing, simply a memory of things past, sorrow for Frodo's fate.....? What does it portent for the future? There are just so many possible interpretations in that single sentence! And some of them do have a bearing on Frodo's fate after he left Middle Earth. :)


In discussions like these a moderated message board is much better than LJ, IMO. Here you can pic up on topics from some days ago and follow up on them after having thought for a while, while in LJ-land you have to be around just as a topic surfaces... and there definitely are more flames and unpleasantness when there are no moderators around.


Edit: Ooops, I nearly forgot; -

Frodo lives!

Alyon, here are the Lyrics to "Use well the days".
I must have missed this. It's not in the movie, is it? :confused:

I still give "May It Be" my vote for most true-to-Tolkien song that we've heard over the credits. Very hope-without-guarantee, that one :) .


Oh, I guess you know they've started them a long time ago?
Well, yes, as far as writing them. I was doing some of it myself about 25 years ago. I meant in order to openly publish them and have them in the book stores (to say nothing of on TV and movie screens). When the book goes into the public domain, they'll be legal. I'm guessing this will cover anything pre-Sil, since the end of copyright is calculated from the death of the author (again, as I understand it). Christopher has his name on everything from the Sil on (as it should be!), so I don't think that will be in the public domain as soon.

Edit: Just thinking about the "pre-Sil" material--Oh, how I'd love to have someone do a really good production of "Leaf by Niggle" [sigh]. Not that I'd be around to see it. :rolleyes: And by that time, Elijah would be just about the right age to play the lead ;) .

Very interesting that Charon, or someone similar, is a part of local tradition in Belgium to this day! He isn't so here in Norway, far as I know, not anymore at least - you'd have had to have read some Greek mythology to know about that. Which means most here will actually have heard about him in school, I believe.
I wouldn't exactly call it a local tradition in Belgium. But, it's a story that's known here and it's something people sometimes say...don't forget to pay the ferryman.
This 'veerman' used to spook me when I was a little girl and I remember asking my dad about it when his sister, my aunt died (because I hadn't seen the coins on the eyes and I was curious and worried about that).

Stories are so important, aren't they?
I love the moon (hence my username). When I was a kid, I used to read a story (over and over and over) about the moon, being a friend, a guide in the night, breaking the dark, cold night. This story was so positive that I always felt protected when I saw the moon and it still gives me a good feeling, like greeting a friend. In my living room, I have a collection of 6 pictures of the moon (full moon, first quarter, half moon,...) taken by a Japanese photographer.
A friend of mine also remembers reading a story about the moon when she was little but it was a scary story about a man in the moon making threats in case kids misbehave. As a result, she was afraid of the moon for a long time and she still can't understand the beauty I see in it.
Two stories about the same thing, but it did have an affect on how we feel about it.

Norse mythology is unknown by me but I have often been tempted to read about it. When I was 10 or so, I read the Greek mythology and loved it (there was a time I could give you the smallest details about that...but my memory decided that those details are not worth keeping I disagree).
We only learned about the horrible and brutal Vikings who caused a lot of damage over here. So, we only get a one-sided story, I'm afraid.
There's this great Belgian 'stripverhaal' (comic book by lack of a better term) called 'Thorgal' and that deals a bit with Norse mythology.

Thanks for the link, maeglian. I have always been fascinated by those boats. They look awesome. When I first saw a picture of the movie 'Troy' - the picture of all those ships from a distance, I first thought they were going to make a movie about Vikings (didn't make the connection with the title... :rolleyes: ...it's Troje in Dutch).

LiveJournals, I am not a LJ owner and do not plan to have one (that's just not my thing...I have never kept a personal journal either). As a non-LJ user, closed and friends-locked LJ's are off limits, I guess.
There are a couple of LJ's that are fun to read like Undone's or Bunnie's LJ and they do allow anon's comments (although I have never left one...LiveJournals seems like a closed circuit and I always get the feeling I'm intruding when I do want to comment). On a LJ, others are always a guest and it's controlled by that person. A message board feels more free to me as a user.

there's a lot of the character that comes through Elijah without him precisely intending it.
I find this intriguing.
During the special screening in New York, somebody in the audience asked Elijah about the meaning of the little nod Frodo gives to the other three hobbits when he's already on the ship with that beautiful smile on his face and red cheeks and right before he turns away.
Elijah seemed to be surprised to hear about it and he replied that he couldn't remember it. He said something like: I do not remember giving the nod and it wasn't a conscious decision of mine to give a nod at that point but if you attach a certain meaning to it...that's just fine by me.

See, I like this.
On the one hand, I do hope we get to hear more from Elijah on the commentary (EE DVD) but I also appreciate that he doesn't want to explain every little detail, the how, the why, the when,...This way, it's just a present, Frodo - in a way - is a gift from him to us and we're free to use our own interpretation.
And, like others have said...a lot of things Elijah does as an actor, seem to be a result of some sort of instinct. He doesn 't seem to be the type who thinks and plans every move and gesture before every scene. IMVHO, he seems to get up there and slip in an out of character. So, even if he wanted to explain the how, the why, the when,...he probably couldn't do it. :confused:


PS I admire people who have the talent to say a lot with only a few words. ;)

This story was so positive that I always felt protected when I saw the moon and it still gives me a good feeling, like greeting a friend.
That's lovely :) . I feel somewhat the same way about Venus, although not from such a young age (since it's from Tolkien, of course :rolleyes: ). In fact, it's been a long time since I've called it Venus in my own mind, instead of Eärendil. It's such a symbol of hope, from the "original" Eärendil legend, to Galadriel's star-glass and Sam's "white star." Last winter, when it was so beautifully bright as the evening star I thought that it's not surprising at all that Tolkien saw a silmaril there.

And, like others have said...a lot of things Elijah does as an actor, seem to be a result of some sort of instinct. He doesn 't seem to be the type who thinks and plans every move and gesture before every scene. IMVHO, he seems to get up there and slip in an out of character

As has been said here many times, too, so much of what he does would seem to be impossible to do in a consciously-planned way. Especially those complex emotional mixes that are absolutely perfect but unnamable. Seems the only way of doing that would be to be so connected to the character that you know exactly what he'd be feeling and express it as he would--naturally, without stopping to put a name on it. I can imagine it just feeling "right" for Frodo to give that nod when the scene is being shot, and not remembering it afterward.

Can I just say that I cannot wait for the RotK EE dvd? Yes, the added scenes will be great, but I want to hear the commentaries! I think when it comes to the scene on the slopes of Mt. Doom (which so many of the cast members cited as their favorite in the entire film), everyone will be verklempting over it. Also, I'd love to hear what excuse the writers give for the whole "Arwen's dying" plot twist (I still can't figure that one out).

Sharpe's Girl:
but I want to hear the commentaries! I think when it comes to the scene on the slopes of Mt. Doom (which so many of the cast members cited as their favorite in the entire film), everyone will be verklempting over it.

Oh, yes. But haven't you been frustrated sometimes with the commentary??? They will come to some gorgeous scene with, for instance (ehem), Elijah being some great emotional Frodo, and someone like Ian is talking on forever about his staff or hat or something over the scene. :rolleyes: I love to hear what the other actors have to say...but in my opinion there has been far too little oohing and ahhing over Elijah's performance!! Having said that, Sean, who often is one of the overtalkers, might actually make a point of praising Elijah in this one, since I know he thinks his performance hasn't been made enough of (see TJ's sig line). And yes it's true that I love elijah's humbleness and I do think it's lovely that he didn't parse out and analyze each of Frodo's moves.. But it would be nice to hear how he "felt" during these scenes....What it felt like to be Frodo. I hope he talks....not about technique so much, but about the experience.

Moondancer:
Stories are so important, aren't they?

Oh, they are, aren't they??? Stories help you feel what other's feel. They help you make sense of life and the world and from the viewpoint of other's. It helps build compassion. I agree with you....

Maeglian----
Thank you so much for the lyrics to Use Well the Days....

Yes well, they seem pretty heartbreaking to me!!! I'd love to hear the song. I think it is supposed to be in the EE RotK????

Moondancer:
During the special screening in New York, somebody in the audience asked Elijah about the meaning of the little nod Frodo gives to the other three hobbits when he's already on the ship with that beautiful smile on his face and red cheeks and right before he turns away. Elijah seemed to be surprised to hear about it and he replied that he couldn't remember it. He said something like: I do not remember giving the nod and it wasn't a conscious decision of mine to give a nod at that point but if you attach a certain meaning to it...that's just fine by me.


Yeah, me too. And I think Elijah is Frodo there. He doesn't even have to think about it. He may do that in other roles..act instinctually. But with Frodo there is the added benefit that he really felt in a way that he is so much like Frodo (despite the fact that Elijah in 2004 doesn't have the same way of carrying himself, talking...etc.). In an interview someone here linked to recently (??) he said how scary it was how much he was like Frodo. Or maybe I saw that link elsewhere. Reading an "acting in film" book recently, I read that an actor has to find themselves in the role (not too startling, I admit). You have to find the part of you that can relate to the role. Elijah perhaps loved finding the Frodo part of himself. It also might be why he can make a creepy Patrick somewhat sympathetic (I thought he really did).

Anyway, it must have been lovely for him to be able to pull out of himself something he could truly love. I'm sure he didn't have to think about the nod, because he was living the moment and responding to it as he really felt...

I think I like Elijah so much just for that. For really being able to find such a lovely, heroic person inside of himself--and make me believe that people like that still exist....It's a good story...and it's a good example for real life.

Enough Alyon!! Begone and to dinner :o :D

EDIT: oh I forgot!!!!! Thank you Maeglian!!! He lives! He lives! He lives!!

there *is* the one in my sig from the epilogue in HOME. It's one of my favourite LotR related sentences, *because* of the ambiguity. It comes after Sam has been discussing with Rosie their past and their good fortunes, standing outside Bag End at night and looking at the stars, with their kids sleeping safely inside. And in the middle of this domestic bliss, as they go in.... Sam hears the sound of the sea that sank into his heart at the Grey Havens. What does it express, - regret, longing, simply a memory of things past, sorrow for Frodo's fate.....? What does it portent for the future? There are just so many possible interpretations in that single sentence! And some of them do have a bearing on Frodo's fate after he left Middle Earth.

For me it means a longing for eternal things, for the light that he saw in Frodo, for the ancient beauty he saw in Frodo's soul that day in Ithilien, for the truth he saw in Elanor's 'elvishness.' But that's my interpretation, and I'll leave you to have yours.

Live journals: I dabbled in LJ land for a while. I got really sick of it really fast. The kind of swooning we don't do here? Well there's loads of it there, and a good deal worse! As well as heaps of speculation, rumors and innuendo regarding Elijah's very private life, or as much of one as he's allowed to have these days. :rolleyes: I got where I was so worried about how much Elijah smoked or didn't, whom and how many he went home with on Oscar night, etc., yada yada, on and on .... that I almost loathed the sight of him! I just had to step away from it all, and remind myself that he is an actor with a job to do, and that he does it very well. I can love him just fine from a very safe, very distant distance. I've got my own kids to worry about! And I haven't even got to the part about the slashy comments about Frodo and Sam which made me wish for Dr. Mierzwiak to have a crack at my cranium! But that's just me.



Honey!

I always enjoy remembering the special showing in New York--the thrill of a lifetime, no exaggeration.

It was actually Sean Astin who said the "nod" meant "whatever your discussion group decided it means"--which got a big laugh from the audience. He was trying to cover for Elijah, I think, who'd confessed he didn't remember doing it and was clearly thinking hard about the scene and trying to remember it. What Elijah finally came up with--and I give him credit for not just shrugging it off, as it had already been announced that it was to be the last question of the evening and he could have just let Sean's answer stand and gone home--what he came up with was that the nod meant, "You'll be all right....... without me."

It fits, doesn't it? Nice save, Elijah!

Out of the Blue she asks.....

Ainon, where are you??? Quit lurking. We're talking Frodo here.

And did we lose Hobbityme to Live Journal land?? or whoops...maybe I missed a few posts?? Sorry if I did.

For me it means a longing for eternal things, for the light that he saw in Frodo, for the ancient beauty he saw in Frodo's soul that day in Ithilien, for the truth he saw in Elanor's 'elvishness.'

ooohh, that's pretty, HoneyElf!!

Flourish - thanks for that vital snippet about Elijah's take on his GH nod. I'd never known he said that - the 'without me' part, but it's just how I interpreted the gesture - perfectly Frodo and so sad.

Now to pursue Tg's question about Frodo's brief look of puzzlement as he boards the ship. I noticed it too, now that you mention it, and saw it as a reflection of Frodo's awe and perplexity of what lies at hand, the sailing ship, the company of immortals, the sea of his dreams, all representing the mysterious pathway before him, his only prerogative if he's to live.

Tg - Your 'Far Green Country' essay is wonderful - thanks for the pointer to it! The analysis of the distinction between the two quotes adds yet another facet to Frodo (and JRRT's genius) that I'd never really considered - his 'intuitive' nature as compared to the sensate Sam. As you point out, the 'impossibility' of Frodo's seeings - practical-minded as this elven-hobbit is - reveals much about him, not just as images themselves but because he chose to write that way.

Another vision similar to the Green Country arises when Haldir leads Frodo to the mount of Cerin Amroth. As the south wind blows, 'Frodo stood still, hearing far off great seas upon beaches that long ago been washed away, and sea-birds crying whose race had perished from the earth.' Shortly after, he sees Aragorn with deep perception. 'He knew that [Aragorn] beheld things as they once had been in this same place. For the grim years were removed from the face of Aragorn, and he seemed clothed in white, a young lord tall and fair,' (recalling Frodo's first sight of Arwin, as Tg mentioned).

What I love about these passages is how they express Frodo' unique experience of profound beauty, how they flash off the surface of the underlying tragedy, that someone so open and alive to this beauty will be ravaged by the most profound horror and ugliness.

It's these aspects that make Frodo not only distinctive but incomparable. Simply, no one but Frodo can be Frodo. Interesting that Elijah himself doesn't fall easily into a cutout either - and not only in terms of his acting. Remember PJ saying somewhere that when mask impressions were being taken of the actors' faces (for dolls, I think), Elijah's was one of the hardest to paint into a likeness? As for his acting style, I like to think of Ew's Frodo as similar to Peter Firth's Alan Strang in 'Equus'. PF was also nominated as a very young man for an Academy and other awards after his superb and highly intuitive performance. While I was disappointed that he made only rare film appearances after that (Joseph Andrews, Amistad - both very well acted), I respected him almost more for his shunning of fame and visibility.

Please excuse my ramble - but I did want to thank all for the fascinating discourse :k .

It was actually Sean Astin who said the "nod" meant "whatever your discussion group decided it means"--which got a big laugh from the audience.
Was it Sean?
My memory must be playing tricks with me again
I have a great memory for certain things. I can remember all sorts of events in my childhood from an early age. However, I do have a terrible memory for names and dates.
I read about this special screening somewhere (see? I do remember reading a fanreport about it but I can't remember the name of the site where I read this). So, I must have mixed up the names.
Thanks for clearing that up.

He was trying to cover for Elijah, I think, who'd confessed he didn't remember doing it and was clearly thinking hard about the scene and trying to remember it.
So, Sean Astin in Samwise-mode again?

What Elijah finally came up with...
"You'll be all right....... without me."
:)

I heard in a discussion about crotch shots, the question was asked about whether or not Elijah Wood was OLD enough to have a crotch. :lol:

Is this mean or what? :confused:

Of course he's old enough! :rolleyes: Right? ;)

Another question was two crotches in the morning, Johhny Depp's and Elijah Wood's. :rolleyes: What is a girl to do then? :confused:

Isn't that a Gross discussion of either of these two guy's? What about Their MINDS? :confused:

Echoing everyone else in saying how much I'm enjoying the latest discussions here.
Also to leave a link to a page giving details of a music programme that Elijah will be in. I dont know how many will be interested or able to view it but here it is anyway!
chart attack tv listings (http://www.chartattack.com/damn/2004/06/2101.cfm)

Have to run, but wanted to drop off a note that according to a TV ad Elijah's scheduled for the next "Ellen"--I assume it's a rerun (or a mistake in the ad). Couldn't tell from the ad if they meant the June 23 program or June 24.

"You'll be all right....... without me." Aaaw, what a lovely, emotional save, if that was what is was! :)


I don't know if "Use Well the Days" will be on the EE DVD, it was released on a special CD around the film release. I actually pondered buying it in a record shop, but for once my common sense and the need to sometimes spend money on other things than LotR :rolleyes: won out.


By tg
When the book goes into the public domain, they'll be legal.Now this I didn't know. I always thought the legal heirs took over the rights. That's very interesting. Still, there aren't many direct sequels to classics and beloved works of literature anyway, are there?...... Or maybe it's just that I don't hear about them, not being the most literary knowledgable person around. :o But there are various adaptions of classics, of course; - that would mean no legal permission was required to for instance use "Les Miserables" for a film or a musical.... (That is, if French copyright rules are the same).


From Honey
For me it means a longing for eternal things, for the light that he saw in Frodo, for the ancient beauty he saw in Frodo's soul that day in Ithilien, for the truth he saw in Elanor's 'elvishness.' But that's my interpretation, and I'll leave you to have yours. I haven't made up my mind what my interpretation is, yet - there are so many possibilities! I know the sentence touches me deeply for some reason, and it's sometimes the things that move you that are the hardest to put into your own words. The way you express it is lovely, and *much* clearer than I managed. Thank you. :)


I had a couple of "freak-outs" over the stuff that's on the net about the LotR celebrities and others long before I even discovered LJs. Nearly made me stop posting, it did...... I felt like I was condoning others' behaviour just by being on the net as a fan. Speculation and gossip (and fics) about real persons is not my personal cup of tea. But I've come around to just being careful where I dabble my internet-toes. There are topics I don't want to touch, and that I try to stay away from, whether it's on LJs or elsewhere. Then again, there are topics that I think are very interesting that others don't want to touch, so there's no easy answer. Moderated boards like this with a rating limit are "safer", also in terms of ensuring that a balance of topics within a posters' comfort zone can be found and maintained. So it's very good to have this place.


Moondancer, I loved your post about how stories of the moon have impacted your view, and that of your friend's. Very interesting and thought-provoking in terms of how what we hear as children will impact our feelings and moods and views later in life......


Norse mythology is unknown by me but I have often been tempted to read about it.I must admit that I think I may know as much about the archeologichal side as the mythological side of viking life. What I know of the religion and myths I've mostly read as a grown-up, and it's packed with life and action, symbolism, and a pantheon full of strong and colourful characters (My favourite being the ambiguous trickster Loki and his incredibly varied and scary offspring) It's often very dark, and it's pretty direct, salty, no-nonsense, no-regret stuff, - reflecting the vikings' own life one would imagine. It's a huge pity we really learn very little serious about it in school - what there is is presented as fairy tales more than anything.
(I think there must be a conspiracy at work to stop us learning our own ancient mythology in more depth. Let me call Dan Brown and ask him to write a book on it. Oh wait! ...he already did! :D :rolleyes: )

I always enjoy remembering the special showing in New York--the thrill of a lifetime, no exaggeration.

It was actually Sean Astin who said the "nod" meant "whatever your discussion group decided it means"--which got a big laugh from the audience. He was trying to cover for Elijah, I think, who'd confessed he didn't remember doing it and was clearly thinking hard about the scene and trying to remember it. What Elijah finally came up with--and I give him credit for not just shrugging it off, as it had already been announced that it was to be the last question of the evening and he could have just let Sean's answer stand and gone home--what he came up with was that the nod meant, "You'll be all right....... without me."

It fits, doesn't it? Nice save, Elijah! Um, I don't know that I ever posted about this here. :o Sorry. That was *Me* who asked EW and PJ the question about the nod in NYC. So, well, *YOU GUYS* are the "discussion group" being referenced..... :D Here, and in the ROTK thread.

Here's the blurb I wrote about it at the time (and it may well be that I mis-heard and it was Sean Astin who made the "whatever your discussion group said" comment. I think a lot of folks were laughing at that point):

And... *I* got to ask a question!!! The moderator said "No more questions" and everyone groaned and aw'd, and he said "OK, one more"... I raised my hand again, and apparently queenie was pointing at me... I asked Elijah and PJ what the meaning was behind Frodo's little nod right at the end of ROTK. I told them several of my friends were having a debate about it. Elijah said "I nodded my head?" then he started blushing and asked if he was blushing. It was obviously not a conscious thing he did, or something PJ directed him to do. He first said "whatever your friends said it meant, that's it!" But then he said, that actually, it probably meant "You'll be alright". Then PJ said "I always interpreted it as saying 'Thank You'" So I guess the short answer is, it wasn't a deliberate thing Elijah did, or was directed to do, it just came out of playing the scene as Frodo, but PJ was aware of it, and left it there. Woohoo!

I unfortunately only caught PJ's quote about it meaning "Thank You" on video. I was a little too busy to be filming!

My 15 seconds of fame.... :)

Hewene

Naiad:
What I love about these passages is how they express Frodo' unique experience of profound beauty, how they flash off the surface of the underlying tragedy, that someone so open and alive to this beauty will be ravaged by the most profound horror and ugliness.

It's these aspects that make Frodo not only distinctive but incomparable. Simply, no one but Frodo can be Frodo

Naiad, that's so beautiful bears repeating.

Hewene:
Elijah said "I nodded my head?" then he started blushing and asked if he was blushing.

Did he really?? :D That was easy. Elijah's an easy blusher!! :D :D

According to a frequent poster to the "Yank" yahoogroup, the film will be renamed "Hooligans", as it was known originally, for all markets. Still no deal in place for either the US or the UK.

Hi Hewene!

The "discussion group" comment was Sean's, flung out in full-blown protective-Sam mode while Elijah sat there thinking. ;) I'm in no doubt about that. :)

Then PJ chimed in with his "Thank you" suggestion. But everyone waited for Elijah--who was ignoring all the input--to respond. It was only after he spoke that the rest of the actors get up to leave the stage and the evening was officially over. ;)

Now this I didn't know. I always thought the legal heirs took over the rights.
They do, but it's not forever. The Tolkien Estate holds the copyrights to all of JRRT's writing. But the last I heard (seems like the rules get changed fairly often :rolleyes: ), the protection ends 75 years after the death of the author. Since JRRT died in 1973, the copyright for the writings that are under only his name (and not Christopher's) would be over about 40 years from now.

The idea, as I understand it, is that the purpose of copyright protection is to make it worthwhile financially for people to create new writing, but the ones who make the laws decide what length of protection it takes to make it "worthwhile." Most nations follow copyright laws that have been worked out internationally. I'm sure that by the time Les Miserables was adapted for the screen, it was in the public domain.

Some of how it actually plays out depends on legal savvy. Frank Baum didn't go through the right legal steps to protect The Wizard of Oz, and people started writing books based on his world almost immediately (but the law's changed since then, and I don't think that would be so easy to do now). Closer to "home," LotR came out in paperback in the U.S. before it did in the U.K. because Ace had found a legal loophole that they were using to sell "legally pirated" paperbacks of it in the U.S. One reason Ballantine went with the covers JRRT hated--they were in a hurry to head off Ace! Even after a work is in the public domain, versions of it can be copyrighted--different translations, different editions with different illustrations, etc., etc., can be protected, just not the written work itself.

Seems to me that there are more adaptations of literary works than there are sequels. Just one example is all the take-offs there have been of The Christmas Carol, with everyone from Mr. Magoo to Marlowe Thomas playing a version of Ebenezer Scrooge--Quantum Leap even had an episode that was based on it. And Charles Dickens or his heirs don't have any say in the process. I'm not sure what Shakespeare would have thought of the Gilligan's Island version of Hamlet--who knows, he might have gotten a kick out of it :p .

What I know of the religion and myths I've mostly read as a grown-up, and it's packed with life and action, symbolism, and a pantheon full of strong and colourful characters...
I researched one very small piece--the history of (what a surprise :rolleyes: ) Eärendil as a name for the morning/evening star. This is kind of on-topic, since Frolijah carries around some of its light--right?

Eärendel (the spelling JRRT first used) was being held captive by the giants--I didn't find out why, which might be interesting. Thor came to rescue him, and sneaked him out by carrying him on his back in a big basket. Only trouble was, the basket wasn't quite big enough, and Eärendel's toe stuck out of it. By the time they reached home, his toe was frozen. Thor broke off the frozen toe and threw it into the sky, where it became the star. For some reason, I just love the fact that a culture decided the brightest object in the sky after the sun and the moon was someone's frozen toe :D ! Tolkien, of course, changed the story a bit ;) .

It's been fun reading recaps of the "nod" discussion from the fan session. And many thanks to Hewene for being ready and willing to ask the question. :)

Since this next topic doesn't even come into the movies, so is even more off-topic, I'll just link to it. Wouldn't want naiad to miss any Frodocentric essays :) . Maybe you discovered it already, but it was posted the same month as the one on the Far Green Country, so maybe not. It's called Frodo's Game? (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id249.htm) and compares Frodo with the main character in Ender's Game (is Bridget lurking ;) ?)--but hopefully it's written in a way that it's understandable even if you haven't read that book (great book--read it :p --planned to be released as a movie in 2006). Anyway, part of the essay talks about why I find Frodo's reactions to Lothlorien especially moving, and since that's been brought up... :)