WOO-HOO and HOORAY on 4000 POSTS!

Mmh, Champagne (hic!) was delicious and now I'd like to stand a beer to everyone... please choose: nice ale (brown, pale, bitter) for the English, Bud and Lager for the American... I've (hic!) brought yummy bavarian beer brewed from wheat (brown, pale, crystal, alcoholic, nonalcoholic) - let's have a hearty party ;) !

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Ale.jpg
Supplied by FreeFoto.com


Hi, Rikka :) !

I think I'll just have another ale!

Congrats everyone!!! It's been a joy to be in the company of such admirable Faculty members.

My son accidentally killed our CD burner the other day (it only cost $10 with rebates so no huge loss) and my hubby suggested a DVD one in the future. Whoo hoo!

In the meantime, in honor of the 4000, I have a Party!Fro request. You know the part just under the big firework before the party scenes where Frodo is in the background and he dances in from the left but gets ahead of the group so he stops, turns and waits? When I want a laugh I zoom and watch. But I've never seen it screencapped. Does it work on zoom? Please, please can I have it? :)

Congratulations to the Faculty on 4,000 (+) posts!

Whiteling, it's so hard to decide among those delicious brews--may I have a sampler, a small (or large;) :D ) glass of each?

I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, but by the time this thread hits its next big milestone, perhaps I'll know more of you excellent and admirable Faculty members a bit better.:) :) :)

Many thanks to the actor and fine human being who has inspired over 4000 posts on topics ranging from nostril acting to microexpressions to sternocleidomastoid supporting roles: Elijah Jordan Wood.:cool: :D :k

4,000 POSTS!

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/8506d6d4.gifWOOHOOO!!! :cool: :cool: Congratulations, everyone! :k


Welcome back Rikka! And I see you, Carly. Where on earth have you been?! :)

nurse, I know the Party!Fro you're talking about. Gives me a hppy chuckle too, each time I see it. I can't do the capping for you right now but I'm sure someone else will! :D





~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Stepping to the side for a while to pick up on a pre-party conversation ... I got here late, but I do have time to reply now! ;)


Originally posted by Brunhild
Maeglian--Can I point out that your comments about Try 17 are pretty close to what some critics said about Frodo? I'm afraid there's a role-independent pattern at work here: EJW does not quite succeed at taking viewers where they are not willing to go.

I think that's true for every actor. Otherwise everyone would always love or hate the same actor every time. :D Sometimes something as petty as 'I don't like the way he smirks' is enough to put a viewer off an actor's performance - no matter how good that actor may be in a particular movie.

I readily admit I'm not partial to Elijah's performance in 'Try 17' because I've seen that kind of role before, done much better. I think of it as an Adam Sandler type role (I mean that in a complimentary way. Sandler has the 'hapless sap to whom things keep happening which he'd rather not have happen but hey, there's this nice girl with whom he can have a happy ending' stuff down pat ;)). Perhaps I'm less impressed with Elijah's Jones Dillon because I've got predetermined standards, but well, that's just the way it is. :o

Btw, one thing that we haven't considered yet regarding the way some people dismiss Elijah's work is that while *we* know he was an incredible child actor, he was never recognised as one by the masses. People knew he existed, but he never pulled a Haley Joel Osment to put himself up as a frontrunner as the actor everyone pays attention to. People who only remember him for 'Flipper' or 'Deep Impact' might be inclined to simply write him off. Especially if they weren't particularly partial to Frodo to begin with. After all, even in the books, Frodo was not everybody's favourite. There're many fans out there who prefer any of the other of Tolkien's characters over Frodo. A similar pattern of fan distribution would be expected for the movies too, I think.

Congratulations, Faculty, on the staggering amount of information amassed here! :) :)

________________

Maeglian--I guess I should not have dropped that OT remark about Ben Kingsley :). [brief OT explanation] In the Death and the Maiden, he shows how an ordinary man can commit horrible atrocities. It's not even stated clearly that his Dr Miranda is indeed guilty--the point is that he can be... This is why a dictatorship needs very few real monsters to keep it going. Most of the dirty work gets done by nice, regular people. [/OT explanation]

:cool: WAY TO GO, FACULTY! Best wishes for the next 4,000! :cool:

Wow! 4000 posts! :cool: I'm impressed, but not surprised. ;) :D

{{{{{Faculty}}}}}

Originally posted by tgshaw

...and no one seems to have noticed that Niph just gave the Faculty Lounge its 4000th post!!!


O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay! :D

I brought some sparkling cider for those of us who aren't into champagne. And some cake and cookies for everybody.

http://www.frigateportjefferson.com/images/zoom/cake.jpg

I'd like to celebrate not just 4000 posts, but the people who've arrived here or delurked for the first time since the 3000 mark. Welcome, again!

Mariole, loved your recent research, and I really need to get to Winter's thread to tell her how much I enjoyed that...

Hi, Rikka, and nurse/kuduk (I laughed when you said your new name sounded Klingon - my first thought!). And hi to Carly and Ezzie and Narya and Niph and Elda - haven't seen you guys here lately - and haven't been up to speed on the other threads to see you there much, either. Bah.

And I had lots more to say, but my middle daughter has just informed me I promised to help her use one of her educational gifts from her birthday, so I guess I gotta get going. *sigh*

I really need to perfect that cloning process. Three of me would still have plenty to do. ;)

Sheryl

Special Anniversary Issue of The Faculty Gazette

entirely devoted to

Hot Elijah Wood Bashing

Our headlines:

Wood Burns To Ashes In Hell's Kitchen As Wooden Burns Walks By -- by the Editors
Want Another Try, Elijah? -- by Ainon, Maeglian, and Prim
Mercator Corrected: North Not Top Of World -- by Tgshaw
Masticating Scenery -- by Mariole
Frodo Falls A Lot But Far Short Of Great -- by Brunhild
Thumbs Down: The Animated Movie That Must Not Have Been Made -- by the Editors

About Try 17

I found out that many of you didn't like the movie and Wood's acting in it. Your arguments are interesting for me... because I myself do like this movie and Jones role!

Try 17 became a pleasant surprise for me. Even after reading good reviews on it in Russian movie magazines, I went to the theater, fearing to find there something like American Pie (I hate youth comedies of this kind)....

Well, this movie isn't a great masterpiece, for sure. As far as I know, the director only starts his independent path in cine. He had very interesting ideas, but he didn't manage to embody them completely. But in general IMO the movie is good – funny and clever at the same moment. In Russian reviews a genre of this film was determined as drama/comedy – that was true… And Try 17 is not so easy as it seems to be at a first sight – with its derisive intellectual games with reality and imagination that change places, interlace, sprout through and mirror in each other…

I laughed a lot, but its humor is always "with brains" and isn't trite even in the most... eeeee... "risky" moments…;) Like, for example, that Jones little discomfiture with erotic dreams… Jones face – when he just wakes up and understands what's going on… this mix of emotions… he-he-he...is not gag for gag, it's funny because so true about a boy of this age. And in general about all teenagers – at this period of life our body so often betrayed us in the many mocking ways… And in the whole movie Wood's Jones seems to me very true – I recognized in his reactions some teens I saw in my everyday life… And – something of myself when I was a teenaged, too ;)

Wood's acting as Jones also was a kind of surprise for me. I agree with many of you that didn't try to put a lot of his soul in this character… But his work in this movie seems to me very professional! In Jones role I found out that EW "childhood" is completely in the past – now he's a grown up professional actor, not a gifted child actor any more. And I like this.

In fact, this is the first time when I see Wood basing his work on role not on his natural talent, but on his professional skills. I mean in his pre-LOTR movies I saw a boy with a fantastic gift who had a natural ability to "become" other person, to "die" in character… He did it as he breathed – and directors used it. But in Try 17 the director didn't need this type of acting, and EW has to work in different acting technique he didn't use to – to be inside" and outside" the character at the same time, to live his life – and to… how to saw… to comment it! The structure, form of the movie seems to me complicated enough - I had a strange feeling that all the events at the screen were going not in "real" time, but through the memory of the main hero… if you follow me. Damn, it's too difficult to express difficult things in foreign language…grrr…:( May be I will tell now a crazy thing, but looking at Jones, I couldn't stop thinking about… the Catcher in the Rye, Holden Colfield (sorry, I'm not sure in spelling of the name) – but grown up already and just looking back, thinking of his 17…

Originally posted by Brunhild
...This is why a dictatorship needs very few real monsters to keep it going. Most of the dirty work gets done by nice, regular people. [/OT explanation]
It is possible to bring this on topic :) -- My first thought on reading the explanation was how closely this fits Gary Sinese's character in The Witness. Except that the poor guy can't shut off his conscience. Some very subtle acting from him in that short, BTW, as you watch the character implode. Subtle acting by Sinese, that is--Elijah basically stands around. But... wouldn't it take talent for a kid that age to stand there with absolutely no expression on his face (which is essential to the story, as I understand it)? Maybe that's how he learned to act nothingness ;) .

Brunhild--Love the headlines :D -- I'd try to think of some more but work has me a bit zoned out. Someone should be able to come up with something for Flipper :p ...

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Speaking of which... IMHO part of the equation is that Elijah's a "working actor" and has been since he was 8. Those several months off after he finished the primary shooting for LotR was the longest he'd ever gone without a job, IIRC. When you work so steadily, for so many years, you're bound to have a few clinkers.

In a related matter, after Haley Joel Osment was mentioned here, I was curious enough to check him out on IMDb, to see if he'd worked as much as Elijah--and I may have to start a fan club for him! At his age, the kid has 25 acting credits :eek: , including a couple of recurring TV roles (I sure didn't remember that he'd played Avery on "Murphy Brown"). I've never heard of most of the things listed, so don't know how many of them are full-length movies, and a lot of them are as a "voice" on an animated piece, but, still, that's not bad! Another "working actor" definitely :) .

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I thought the discussion on the "willingness" of the audience was interesting--mostly because it made me think of the "willing suspension of disbelief" Tolkien said was needed to fully enter into a fantasy. The author doesn't force the reader to accept the secondary creation as real, but the author needs to do a good enough job that if the reader is willing, he or she can suspend disbelief without being yanked back into realizing it's "just a story." A hard thing for an author to do, and I'm wondering if it couldn't also be applied to the relationship between an actor and the audience.

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Sheryl, I was hoping you'd show up with some goodies :) .

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Edit regarding Rikka's simulpost: I also liked Try 17 and Elijah's acting in it--There are a number of movies in which a lot of people think the acting is too low-key, where I just see that as making them more real. EJW movies I've felt that way about include Deep Impact and Bumblebee (although I think a lot of people do "get" Barney--that is, realize he's almost forced to be nonemotional, and that the character wouldn't be realistic if played otherwise). Interesting idea about seeing the whole movie as being played out in the character's memory. [Sorry--I know my brain isn't quite putting words together intelligibly right now :o .]

Welcome back Rikka! And I see you, Carly. Where on earth have you been?! ainon, that made me want to look over my shoulder just like Smeagol when Gollum left! "I told him to go, and away he goes, Precious!" I just love that line!

So nice to be remembered. My foster kids left, and I have a new one. Lots of angst, broken heart mending, busy, busy, busy. I swear, I must love drama, cuz I draw it like a magnet! Wasn't able to enjoy myself for a long time, then I needed to come back to immerse myself in the Middle Earth Crew again, just to restore what I call my sanity. I really feel sorry for all those who consider me (us) crazy. Where in the world can they go for this kind of healing?!

Have enjoyed (almost) every minute of catching up again. Coming back to Elijah and Orlando, especially, is just like catching up with kids who have gone off on their own. And being here is just like being back with family! :D

I haven't been able to afford the DVD yet so I'm ignorant of the bonus stuff, but I am wearing the DVD rental out. I'm so glad it's out, and I WANT THE EXTENDED VERSION NOW! :D

from Brunhild I'm afraid there's a role-independent pattern at work here: EJW does not quite succeed at taking viewers where they are not willing to go


Hmmm. If I read Maeglian's post from last page correctly then I believe one of her main points was that we, The Disappointed Ones, were indeed very "willing to go".

BTW I totally agree with Maeg's post but must rush rather than analyse (dang) as a thunderstorm is threatening the power.

edit: back, briefly, to clarify.
I mean I agree with Maeg that the acting in Try 17 was bland and that I failed to be engaged; depite being a Fac member. :eek:

This despite the intense enthusiasm with which I sat myself down, threatened the kids into bed and glued myself to the screen.

I love EWs work in LoTR but have yet to react viscerally to any of his other roles . Except Mikey in Ice Storm. This leads me to wonder (again) whether EW is indeed a "director's" actor. Both these films have a director with a very strong vision, and co actors of great experience.
This is not at all a negative. I think this could be a very good thing: if an actor is adept enough at reflecting the director's vision rather than his or her own, mightn't we get a broader range of character interpretation ?

I work with teens every day and have done for the best part of a decade. To me Jones just doesn't ring true. That he is passive is fine. But where is the (submerged) angst?

The clearest comparison I can give is Frodo from the extended FoTR sitting hunched on the flet listening to Aragorn argue to Haldir. No lines. No body movement. Huge tension communicated by his body language and facial expression. Now Frodo has a lot more to be angsty about than a teen with no father. Yet these issues, to a teen, are large enough to warrant a lot more emtion, however repressed, than we get from Jones. Watching TTT has totally reinforced this opinion.

OK. Enough said. I know this is not too welcome to some of you. Sorry: rest assured that whenever I watch LoTR I am genuinely flabbergasted by young Mr Wood and so much more so on small screen. Frodo is so totally believable here. I am predicting RoTK will be very difficult to watch.

Nice to see you back Rikka and Carly! :)

Bummer Ainon. Glad you enjoyed the Marathon anyway. I would have gone home and sulked. :p

Just popping in to wish you all belated congratulations on 4000 posts!

This thread brings me a huge amount of enjoyment (and not just for the Fro-pics ;) ). It is witty, entertaining and educational. :)

Here's to the next 4000!

Originally posted by Prim
I love EWs work in LoTR but have yet to react viscerally to any of his other roles . Except Mikey in Ice Storm. This leads me to wonder (again) whether EW is indeed a "director's" actor. Both these films have a director with a very strong vision, and co actors of great experience.
I'll agree (again :) ) with the idea of Elijah being a "director's actor." I've thought this, also, ever since my pre-FotR viewing marathon. You can (usually) tell from EJW's acting how good the director is.

Another character of his that I "react viscerally" to at appropriate times [great term, BTW] is Huck Finn. The director for that one was not experienced, but he knew what he wanted. And working with a cast including Jason Robards, Robbie Coltrane, Courtney B. Vance, Ann Hesche, and, uh, the guy from Beauty and the Beast :o , couldn't have hurt.

Avalon was the epitome of a "director's movie," and Barry Levinson is a very good director--on top of that, Elijah was playing the character who was based on the director/writer! It was another very good movie/role, IMHO. His angst at believing he'd destroyed the family business was so right, I thought, for a kid that age--when everything that happens has to somehow be because of you.

Stu in The War also kicks me in the gut a few times--I don't know anything about the director for that one... But some people have said EJW has a pretty good Mississippi accent there (I have no idea), and whenever he has a good accent you know he's had a good director because that's not something he comes by naturally. (Compare to Oliver Twist--which IMHO had some other director-related problems, too--where Elijah said in an interview afterward that the accent had been "easy" to do; uh, maybe, but it was also pretty bad, and evidently no one bothered to point that out to him.)

IMHO, when you have a good director with a strong vision, even actors who don't have to depend so much on the director will tend to cooperate. Some of the other LotR actors argued some points with PJ, and occasionally convinced him to change something, but it doesn't sound as if anyone simply refused to go along with him. The difference comes, of course, when you don't have that kind of director and the actors have to interpret things on their own.

It would be natural to follow the director's lead, I'd think, when you've been acting since you were knee-high to... anything :) . I'm hoping Elijah is gradually growing out of such strong dependence on the director. The "one brief shining moment" that I look at is that less-than-a-minute with Rosario Dawson at the end of Ash Wednesday. Putting aside any comments on Ed Burns's overall directing (and writing :rolleyes: ) talents, the director's commentary makes it clear that he does very little direction of the actors, spending most of his efforts on other aspects of the movie. And during most of the movie, Elijah's acting shows it. But if he pulled that last scene off basically on his own, he does have it in him to fly solo when he needs to--and when he lets himself. IMHO, it's another of those "not pretty but it shouldn't be" scenes; the character's almost embarrassing to watch, but IMVHO that's exactly how he would have been!

That is just one brief scene... But even with PJ there were such moments as "Frodo's silent. Take it from there" (not the exact quote, I'm sure), where EJW was able to pull things off. I don't know if Elijah will have enough movies coming out in the next couple of years to judge whether the growth process is continuing. But if he can keep learning from the good directors, and then put what he's learned into practice when he has a not-so-good director, IMO he can get to the point where he trusts his own judgement enough to find the character without much help from the director.

((((Carly)))) Well, it's good to have you back! And extra hugs for the new kid. :) Right now you have the Middle Earth crew and Orlando's Caribbean Pirates crew ... it's fun times for an obsessive ... err ... I mean - *passionate* ... fan! ;)

Yo Sheryl. You know, those cookies finally look like something I see here too. All right. Gimme some!

Brunhild - LOL! And Mariole, I forgot to congratulate you on your excellent presentation. Jawlines will never be mere lines again.

Originally posted by tgshaw
I thought the discussion on the "willingness" of the audience was interesting--mostly because it made me think of the "willing suspension of disbelief" Tolkien said was needed to fully enter into a fantasy. The author doesn't force the reader to accept the secondary creation as real, but the author needs to do a good enough job that if the reader is willing, he or she can suspend disbelief without being yanked back into realizing it's "just a story." A hard thing for an author to do, and I'm wondering if it couldn't also be applied to the relationship between an actor and the audience.

I reckon it does, but it shouldn't be something the audience realises. There're countless character actors out there whom we see all the time but somehow never notice, because they're so good at what they do: being characters. Among them, we have the actors who've become stars, and the best of them are still always able to play diverse character types, and are always able to bring their viewers with them. Take Al Pacino. A sampling of Al Pacino's best roles have had him on the extreme opposite sides of the law: Mafia Don ('The Godfather'), bank robber ('Dog Day Afternoon'), lawyer ('And Justice for All'), cop ('Heat', 'Insomnia'). Anthony Hopkins is another actor who's done extremes - he's Hannibal Lecter, but he's also the guy who played C.S. Lewis ('Shadowlands'). And of course, we have Robert De Niro. I mention these guys by name because they're actors who've had long film careers, they use silence and stillness in their work, and they're masters at saying volumes without dialogue. Sure they're way old, but still -- kinda like Elijah. ;) :D

As a movie fan I'm pretty flexible about 'willing suspension of disbelief'. A movie can be a fluff waste of time and money like 'Charlie's Angels 2' and still be watchable because I can see the actors are having fun and I'll give them that, kick back my shoes, and have fun with them. Adam Sandler can convince me of his ordinariness and miserableness and woeful bad luck, and I'm game. Characters can be passive and low-key because that's what they are, but if I'm with them, then I'm with them. IMHO, there're great movies that you watch and get blown away by for one reason or another, and there're movies that are made for the pure purpose of entertainment. As far as I'm concerned, if the movie entertains me, then that's already a job well done, even if I may not necessarily recommend the movie to anyone else afterward. :p

Anyway yeah, I agree with Maeg and Prim about Elijah's take on Jones. If I break the scenes apart and do Faculty analysis sure there's stuff to study 'little things I liked' style (it's Elijah, so I'm not 'unwilling', in other words), but the overall sense of the character just doesn't work for me. Just because.


While we're on this line of technical discussion, the following quotes are all from Edward Norton. Yeah, yeah, I already did this before :p (http://www.edward-norton.org/articles/proj10.html) but well, Norton's an actor who can talk on and on and on about his craft, and it's nerdy fun to read his interviews. Not to mention Faculty deja vu-ish at times. ;)

Q: Can you talk about the psychological reasons behind your need to be an actor, or do you fear that deconstructing it in such a way might be detrimental to your process?
I was wary of deconstructing it for a long time, but I'm much less so now - I don't know why. I think I've come to grips with the fact that not intellectualising it is actually a pose. There's a craft to it, just like there is to anything else, and that's something you should be proud of.

The close-up is a completely artificial perspective provided by the camera, and that's why directors will often tell actors to do less, but good actors come to understand intuitively how tiny gestures have to be - if they're necessary at all - when the camera's in there.

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... there are certain tricks of voice or the way you use your eyes in relation to the camera that can help you, as well as tricks of stillness and silence - pauses and stares - which I think are greatly underestimated in terms of the impact they can have. If there's one working actor who has a corner on the intensity of stillness on film, or who most profoundly understands how terrifying a stare can be, as opposed to what you might call generalised indications of anger through gestures or scowls, it's Robert De Niro. I think a lot of film acting is about coming to an understanding of those kinds of techniques.

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Once you've channelled into an emotion, all kinds of interesting things can happen and you learn to trust yourself in the moment. It's a broad generalisation, but I would say that acting on film often has a lot to do with what happens off the lines, through non-verbal gesture.

Q: How do you develop an awareness of what the director or director of photography will be seeing in the camera?

Well, it does become intuitive. You don't have to break out of character every time and say "Where are you framed up?" because you learn about the different lenses, or you might hear the director say 'Let's go to a 35' in which case you know you're wide. On 'American History X', (director) Tony had a fondness for shooting the actors just below the hairline but just above the chin. You obviously can't express things in that proximity that you could in a medium shot, because it would just look ridiculous blown up to 60ft by 30ft. So you have to know how to scale things down. Ultimately, in terms of connecting with the intensity of a scene, I think it's something that's not deconstructible. It's just a facility I think I have.

originally posted by tgshaw
I thought the discussion on the "willingness" of the audience was interesting--mostly because it made me think of the "willing suspension of disbelief" Tolkien said was needed to fully enter into a fantasy.

It also may be that we have problems with EW performances not because we're unwilling to go where he wants to take us, but because where he's trying to take us isn't credible to us. Prim found EW's passiveness/lack of body language in Try 17 unbelievable; but it may be that was what the director or author was looking for. While I agree with Prim that teens are easy to "read", and that Jones didn't have the right body language, I felt I was seeing Jones through someone else's eyes, and I know other people *can't* read teens the way I can.

I can think a teen is obviously indicating pain and defensiveness and even fear, while another adult insists that the same teen is impossible to understand and interprets the teen's position completely differently. My dad is one of those people who seems totally blind when it comes to body language and nonverbal communication. He hasn't a clue. I think a lot of the people watching Jones were like my dad - for various reasons (often just that they were so tuned in to their *own* emotions), they weren't very tuned in to Jones as a person, and so were unable to see him as he really was.

I felt that the lady who was sweeping the room was one of the few who really saw Jones as a person, and I felt that EW was somehow warmer and more vulnerable in those scenes - because I was "seeing" the character through her eyes. Th movie felt very disjointed to me because the viewers' relationship with Jones was odd - we see him from "outside" most of the time, through the eyes of others, but at the same time we're allowed inside his fantasies.

I suppose it may be that we see Jones as he'd like to be seen - unaffected by his own past - but again, seeing into his fantasies seems to negate that. The director seems to want it two ways at once - wants us to see Jones as Jones would like to be, while at the same time revealing Jones as he really is.

Then again, perhaps Jones himself really is a good actor - perhaps he actually does manage to disguise his pain and control his own responses in a way that most teenagers fail to do. Maybe that's what that what Mandy Moore's character means with her, "as good an actor as you" line - that she can see Jones is a good actor because he is so in control of his own body language.

originally posted by Prim
I think this could be a very good thing: if an actor is adept enough at reflecting the director's vision rather than his or her own, mightn't we get a broader range of character interpretation ?

Ooo, what an intriguing point. I agree, I think. It's as if the actor has access to more concepts of reality.

Originally posted by tgshaw
But even with PJ there were such moments as "Frodo's silent. Take it from there" (not the exact quote, I'm sure), where EJW was able to pull things off.

I wonder if it's less that EW needs a director hovering over him telling him how to do a scene and more that EW needs someone to bounce off of in discussing his character. He needs the opportunity to really discuss and think about his character, and a good director gives him that opportunity. The director probably influences his interpretation of the character, and he's clearly willing to try to fit the director's vision, but I think the important part is just that someone gets him thinking and focused.

I think EW does better with parts where he *understands* the character in a very profound way. I thought he did just fine with Try 17, but I also didn't think Try 17 was a stunner movie - I don't think the writer or director had thought through the character as they should have, and neither did Elijah. Nobody knew what the character was, deep down, and it showed. The plot itself was very disconnected. But considering what the plot gave him, EW did fine.

If EW could talk the character with a good writer, I think that'd help him just as much as talking it with a good director. The guy who did Huck Finn had a very clear vision - he was writer and director and had thought it through a lot I believe - and EW was able to pick that up. Ed Burns, OTOH, just wanted to make a movie about Ed Burns, IMHO, and despite the fact that he was writer and director he really didn't have much to "give" EW in terms of understanding EW's character. In reality, the main "motive" behind all of Sean's actions was to make Francis look good and give him the opportunity for grand sacrifice...

I wonder if EW's better moments in his poorer films are shot later in the schedule - whether he gets a better grasp of the character over time even without much discussion. It also might be that he understands what his character is doing and feeling in certain shots, just because he's thought it through more or is just imagining how *he* would feel in that situation. I can imagine him considering Sean's reaction to seeing his wife and child again, in part because it's a pivotal scene, but also because EW hasn't lived that and would have to think about it in order to approach it at all.

I suspect that his best acting is when he has a deep, intuitive understanding of the character - but I also suspect he sometimes gets that understanding by talking about the character outside of the acting situation. In fandom, there are fanfic authors who have to "talk story" in order to write good stuff - they bounce the idea off of others and discuss it considerably before actually tackling the thing. The story is theirs, but it's "fully formed" when they write it (at least in terms of plot and character motivation) because of the conversations they had before, even if the story is very different from the one they discussed.

By the same token, some actors have to think their part through to do their best. EW isn't a method actor or anything, but I suspect he has to have a deep understanding of the character, or at least a deep understanding of his version of the character, in order to apply the intuitive acting he does best. His acting is intuitive and unconscious - but his unconscious works best when it's been previously "filled" with a lot of consideration of the character.

Maybe that's one reason why good actors can encourage good performances from other actors - the good actor discusses the characters with his fellows. I think EW can get in trouble thinking too much about his *acting* - but thinking about his character is all for the best.

Sheryl

edit for simul-posting:

originally posted by ainon
Yo Sheryl. You know, those cookies finally look like something I see here too. All right. Gimme some!

Actually, I thought most of those cookies looked vaguely synthetic - obviously machine made and probably full of preservatives. :p I should have hubby post some pictures of the deadly stuff I've made on our website and link to that - except of course he's most likely to take pictures of our kids' birthday cakes, and since they pick the cakes the cakes are most likely made with canned frosting and tons of gumdrops and candy corn and things - doesn't matter how nasty they are because the point to that sort of thing is not to eat it but to decorate it, y'see....

whiteling,
one of the things I meant to say yesterday was that my sister says she wouldn't have survived her year in Germany without the nutrients in beer. She's a vegetarian and can't tolerate high fat food, so apparently her options were limited. ;) She didn't drink beer much before going to Germany, but now she'll track down a good import once in a while just for the nostalgia value. Your post made me think of her lectures on how awful american beer is... :D

Sheryl

Fascinating acting discussion, Tg, ainon, Sheryl... thanks for the Norton quotes, ainon! It's so intriguing when he describes the "technical basics" which are essential for every (good) film actor, and it reminds me of an acting class Michael Caine did in the Seventies for television. It's somewhere buried in my video collection :o , but I clearly remember the unique moment (after he explained all important acting tricks) where he slipped completely into character. The very moment before you heard all about "scaling down", close-ups, camera lenses and - *MAGIC!* - suddenly you only see a human being, a character you are absorbed by totally...and that's the point where "technique" becomes the steppingstone for art :) .

That's so an interesting topic, but I'm too dog-tired to write more for the moment. *Sigh*

Just this one: Sheryl, it's good to know that your sister survived her stay here by means of our beer. I'm a vegetarian too and I like to supply my need of vitamin B by drinking a good pint, occasionally ;) !

nurse - he's late to the party!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-9/93723/lbungaapi.JPG

And I so obviously can't zoom in. Which means I so can't get the Party!Fro you asked for. Sorry. :o

We can still laugh it up, though. :

http://home.villagephotos.com/2003-7/13204/a'in/lfrolawak.JPG





Sheryl:
Actually, I thought most of those cookies looked vaguely synthetic - obviously machine made and probably full of preservatives.

LOL! Yes! That's why that sort of stuff would so obviously be universally available! :p :D

whiteling - Michael Caine is :cool: Even in campy stuff like that 'severed hand out to get him' movie. :p ;) I remember a Reader's Digest interview where Caine talked about how he learned that blinking can ruin a close-up, so he trained himself not to blink. Apparently, he can outblink the longest close-ups. I think Anthony Hopkins knows that trick too. Watch Hannibal Lecter: he never blinks, except for half blinks, and I'll be danged if those half blinks don't creep you out more than him not blinking at all. ;)

Whoa, check out the Faculty silence. Is everyone off nursing a hangover from our 4,000 post blast, or what? ;)

Just popping in to say that I'll be out for a long weekend in the mountains. I'll be catching up Sunday evening to see all the scintillating research that has been published in my absence. Perhaps I might be able to post a bit more of my own. You think I was stopping with the mandible? Au, contraire! I have a new segment of research already planned. Ainon, your latest set of party pics will likely be included in the upcoming treatise. It shows a splendid example of --

But I don't want to "prepublish." You'll just have to speculate on the new body part on your own. See you all Sunday! :p

Mariole! You imp!

What body part are we gonna evaluate next??? :eek:

We wants it, yes we do, Precious! :cool:

You're really making us wait until Sunday? I know I lurk more than post, but I'm lurking with gusto! ;)

Let's have it! *insert panting smiley here*

I finally finished capping Fro-TTT and I'm moving all the caps and other pics HERE (http://www.imagestation.com/mypictures/)

The newest and last TTT album is up.

Ainon--thanks for Party!Fro !!

Mariole--When I saw tg's 9/5 avatar this morning, I thought, "cheekbones!", then with your post (ooh, I can't wait for the explication!!!) and the party Fro pics hint... anyway, that's my guess: cheekbones! No, not those, mind out of gutter, please!:o

Have a nice time in the mountains!

Carly--nice to see you here and around kd!

Hobmom--continued thanks for the screencaps!

Hobmom's
http://groups.msn.com/ElijahSummer03/ttt.msnw?action=ShowPhoto&PhotoID=1774
shows some excellent supporting work by mandible and cheekbones, not to mention a strong noseline despite a soft scm.

Well, that's about as far as this lowly research assistant can go until professor Mariole comes back.

Oh, and if I'm totally off on my body part guess, I'm not going to mind *too* much studying yet another member of the EJW supporting cast. ;)

from Sheryl It's as if the actor has access to more concepts of reality.

Yes. And that's just what I was fumbling around trying to say. I agree with tg that being able to "find" the character on your own even with a poor or passive director shows an actor's maturity. But even harder I think is suspending your own values/perspective and projecting convincingly someone else's vision. With so many actors carrying around such huge egos this would be doubly difficult. I wonder if this is the path down which young Mr Wood is headed? He certainly does not suffer from huge ego.:)

Then again, perhaps Jones himself really is a good actor - perhaps he actually does manage to disguise his pain and control his own responses in a way that most teenagers fail to do. Maybe that's what that what Mandy Moore's character means with her, "as good an actor as you" line - that she can see Jones is a good actor because he is so in control of his own body language.

:p I have to say that I don't buy it, but what the heck: a very intriguing take on things Sheryl!!! I'm starting to feel as if I'm heading down one of those hideously tangled philosophical tracks of: what is real? How do we know its real? Is my real your real? Can we ever really know?
or are we all just trapped in The Matrix? :eek: ;)

re other actors: Cool. I love Robert de Niro and Al Pacino. And both can have mesmerising eyes too. Another link.:cool:

Just a note to say that if you want to view the screen-caps on that last link you will have to sign in on that site. It's free and no big deal. But I can store EVERYTHING there for free. I was seriously running out of space in the last place.

And if you click on the individual pics you will get the full size version. AND when you get into the 350's or somewhere around Osgiliath I did a bunch in full pc screen size from the Nazgul/Ring scene on. So if you click on each pic you will get a full size pic of that scene.


Drop in and see and have fun. Many mandibular shots, BTW.:D

And a serious study of 'tear acting' after Sam's UN speech.

Originally posted by kuduk
... anyway, that's my guess: cheekbones! No, not those, mind out of gutter, please!:o
From the Party pics, I was going to guess cheeks--with the same stipulation ;) .

P.S. I tried to pick an avatar for the weekend that provides a good visual aid for reviewing recent studies :p (from "The Ring is treacherous.").

Originally posted by tgshaw
From the Party pics, I was going to guess cheeks

Yes, those full, rosy, shiny party cheeks. :)

:o

I'm not sure if the link I posted up there works. If it doesn't try THIS LINK (http://www.imagestation.com/members/Hobmom2)

LOT'S OF ELIJAH/FRODO/ALL THE TTT CAPS AND PICS!

Well, here I am, I stranger to you all, sitting here drinking a glass of wine. I call to my 15 year old daughter (who is an actor)--"Come here, Honey! They are now talking about Edward Norton!" She (who, like me, loves Frodo, though Pippin is her favorite), says "Mom, you have to post! They are celebrating their 4000th." And I say, "No, honey. I only lurk. She looks at me with both love and scorn and says, "go on!"

So I do. You guys are great. Thank you. Frodo culture has carried me through a lot of things this summer. Thank you Thank you Thank you. I'll write again when you reach 8000. (or maybe sooner). You guys are the best.

Well, third time's the charm, they say - this is my third attempt at posting, so we'll see. So far it's been my own incompetance that's done them in. :rolleyes: The last one was quite long, too. *sigh*

Hi, Alyon! Thanks for your kind words. You don't really have to wait until post 8000 to post again, y'know. ;) Although if you do, I will probably be in awe of your restraint. Yeah, that really motivated you to post again. :rolleyes:

originally posed by ainon
LOL! Yes! That's why that sort of stuff would so obviously be universally available!

Hooookay. If that's how you feel, I'll be sure to have some Twinkies and HoHos for you next time. :rolleyes: Mind you, there's a midwest restaurant that actually makes an ice cream dessert with HoHos that's actually not too bad as synthetic food goes. But Twinkies have gotten really nasty since they added vitamins...

originally posted by Prim
I'm starting to feel as if I'm heading down one of those hideously tangled philosophical tracks of: what is real? How do we know its real? Is my real your real? Can we ever really know?


I suddenly feel an almost irresistable urge to take this conversation to an extensive Ed Burns discussion... Presumably because I find Ash Wednesday even more surreal than the Matrix. ;)

Hobmom,
Thanks for the glorious collection of screencaps. :cool: I had great hopes of filching a few and sticking them on our website thingie so I could show Frodo Grimly Determined To Kill If Necessary and Frodo Murderous With Ring Madness on the same page/in the same post, but hubby informed me he was messing around with the site and, er, did it in somehow. Guess we'll see if he managed to fix it. :p

I watched TTT yesterday, and I am kicking myself for not watching it more often in the theatre. I will *NOT* make that mistake with ROTK! I had forgotten that my eyes begin watering about a third of the way in and the rest of it is very hard to watch. What's strange is that half the time my brain is thinking, "Why did PJ do it this way?" or "Hey, this works beautifully," or "When am I going to see some hobbits again?" or otherwise wandering, but my emotions are completely engaged anyhow. Very odd.

If ROTK manages to connect my brain and emotions as tightly as FOTR did, I am dead, dead, dead.

Anyhow, back to my long-delayed comparison of Frodo with his sword at someone's throat. Since PJ positioned them in parallel relationships to the beginning and end of TTT, he obviously meant them to resonate against each other, right? ;)

I think Frodo carefully planned the battle against Smeagol. I mean, obviously Frodo and Sam were expecting and prepared for Gollum's approach and meant to take him prisoner if possible, but I think Frodo continued planning and analyzing during the altercation. He wanted to capture Gollum alive if possible, for instance, and despite getting pretty bashed and despite the threat to the Ring, he didn't pull his sword until Sam was pinned and clearly in danger.

At which point Frodo is willing to kill, if necessary, but he's still in control of his emotions. His face is full of determination and grim purpose, but there's no hatred and really not a lot of anger, even though Gollum bashed him on the head and otherwise flung him around pretty good.

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordGollum.1.bmp

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordGollum.2.bmp

What I most notice, watching that scene, is how Frodo is so *there*. I'm not sure how to explain it, but Frodo is normally such an internal character, and here he's very externally focussed. He is in charge, but he also has a lot of compassion. It's later that he tells Sam he pities Gollum, but I think from the beginning he was determined to be as fair and considerate with Gollum as possible. He'd taken Gandalf's words to heart.

And notice the pupils of his eyes. They're quite large - that's part of the "openness" of his face. In contrast, when he attacks Sam in Osgilliath, his pupils are much smaller:

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordSam.2.bmp

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordSam.3.bmp

I think this parallels Gollum's pupils being smaller than Smeagols. (Hey, you in the back, pointing out that Frodo's dealing with Gollum at night and Sam during the day - just pipe down! It fits with the theory so it goes, got it?) I think this picture of Frodo attacking Sam is a classic example of "blind rage" - when Frodo was dealing with Gollum, he was outwardly focussed; he was considering everyone, and concerned for everyone. But when he attacks Sam, no one else matters - he's inwardly focussed, and all that matters is keeping the Ring.

I am in awe of EW's ability to do these two scenes that are so parallel in terms of action, and yet play them so differently. In both he is determined, in both he is angry, in both he is willing to kill - but the differences in Frodo's mind are so profound, and EW *shows* that in his face, in the way he controls his actions. PJ adds to it a bit - his "straight on" shots of Frodo with Gollum are tighter than the ones with Sam - he only tightens in on Frodo's face while attacking Sam after Frodo begins to come back in control.

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordSam.5.bmp

But it's mostly EW's face. I wish PJ had held the camera on Frodo's face clear through the realization - he switches to a long shot at that crucial point:

http://12.247.113.67:8205/FrodoswordSam.4.bmp

This is a lovely shot, a classic in the angsty "brother against brother" scenario (which is usually good friends where one attacks the other under some sort of delusion or evil influence), but *not* what I wanted to be seeing at that particular point.

I'm trying to remember when we've seen clearly every transition on Frodo's face as the Ring takes over, he acts under the Ring's influence, and then he realizes that he *is* under the Ring's influence. IIRC, in the, "Can't you see what's happening?"/"Mine, my own" scene either Frodo's behind Sam or his back is to the camera when he's presumably transitioning out. There is of course the scene where Faramir is toying with the Ring, but that isn't the subtle thing I'm thinking of - there the Ring is trying desperately to act, and Frodo knows what's happening. That's plain old wrestling based on sheer force of will.

What interests me are the times when the Ring *influences* Frodo, without Frodo initially realizing it. The first time is probably when they're hiding from the Nazgul, under the tree roots. Then Frodo is so dazed Sam has to haul him to his feet to get moving. But I don't think Frodo really realizes what's going on until Amon Hen, when the WiKi is advancing on Frodo and Frodo gets focussed on the Ring - I think that's when Frodo first realizes just how evil the Ring is, and when he first consciously fights against it. That altercation you see clear through, and it's all done by EW's acting.

I do really like the scene in the cave when Sam tells Frodo to put the Ring on - even though that's sure not book Sam! - because EW does such a gloriously angsty job of confessing that the Ring is taking over. Frodo's recognized it, and that's a horrible thing to have to admit to ones self. I suspect that just Frodo's willingness to recognize this fact armors him against the Ring. Probably most people would *not* be willing to admit that vulnerability - they'd try to insist what they were doing was right, even though deep down they knew it wasn't right, and they'd further refuse to recognize how influenced they were by the Ring.

Random thoughts about Frodo attacking Sam. As Sam's racing up to stop Frodo, he passes at least two Gondorians racing down - PJ does not portray the humans as paralyzed by the presence of the Nazgul as the book seems to indicate, but they clearly are less willing to tangle with it than Sam is! While Frodo's very much in control when dealing with Gollum, he's not only dealt with the Ring longer and more tired when dealing with Sam, he's also been dragged to Osgiliath against his will by Faramir - he's been battling not only the Ring, but Faramir, on another front. He's far more stressed, and so the Ring gets a much better grip on him.

EW shows that growing frustration very well, I think. Book Frodo didn't have to deal with a good guy who was not being controlled by the Ring but who insisted on interfering with his mission anyhow, dragging him clear off course and threatening to drag him even futher - I'm thinking I can even go with Frodo's despair there. Oh, well, truth is, any excuse for EW to play angst...

Sheryl

edit:

Well, it's working for me, sooo... until someone tells me they're not working, screen grabs courtesy Hobmom. :)

Sheryl

Welcome Alyon, and thank you for a beautiful first post. :) Many thanks to your daughter for outing you into our midst. ;) Now, don't be a stranger anymore. You know our insanity. You're tempted to be as doomed as we are. Don't resist. Come. We'll be nice to you if you're nice to us. In other words, relurk fully, or you're gonna have to endure a whole lotta cliched efforts to get you to delurk fully. :p :D


Hobmom - niiiice. :cool: Thank you! :k I'm on vacation, actually, and using a computer with slower Net access so it takes ages for the images to load, but each loaded image is well worth it. Well, at least till the phone bill comes.

Sheryl, that long-awaited report is a very well-researched post. Very wonderfully illustrated. Alas, at after midnight (the only time I can get time alone on this computer) the only profound thing I can say is: I'm sorry, but Twinkies and HoHos are not universal. But if you'd like to talk M&Ms, and ponder the mystery of how they do too melt in your hand, well, we could get something going. ;)

Prim ... I had a feeling you'd get a Matrix plug in there somewhere. :D

Mariole, hope you had a relaxing weekend. Does this mean your RL homework is all done, and you'll be able to devote ample time to Frodo body parts now? Err. No, that sentence does not mean what it seems to mean. Geez, you people. :o :p


And hey, isn't it a relief that Elijah isn't a part of this?

http://et.tv.yahoo.com/celebrities/2003/08/26/davidspadedickierobertsintv/

Although, hey, it might've been fun .... :D

Congratulations, Faculty colleagues! 4000+ posts!!! And chock full of wonderful research, too! Thank you all for your brilliance and wit!

Sorry to be late arriving for the party...RL has been verry busy this week.

Welcome, Alyon, and don't dare go back into lurk mode! :)

Me, I'm betting that Professor Mariole's next research project is the Adam's Apple. :D

Sheryl: that is a wonderful analysis of the difference between Fro at the beginning of TTT and at the end. You are certainly right that PJ deliberately set up those shots to contrast with each other; I mean, by rights they shouldn't even have been at Osgiliath, right? The difference between the way Frodo behaves with Sting at Gollum's throat, and the way he behaves with Sting at Sam's throat is a very powerful marker of the greater power of the Ring, and Frodo's deterioration in its grip. In the first instance, he weilds Sting to save Sam; in the second, he weilds Sting to kill him. Your observations about the pupils, etc. are terrific. Many thanks. :k

ainon: have you seen the reviews of that movie? A real stinker by all accounts. Thank God EW has managed to avoid all those cliches.

And I am still withholding my analysis of EJW's Jones Dillon. When does All I want get released in DVD?

Popping in to say "hi" and welcome to Alyon :)

And to say thank you! to Sheryl for the illustrated research. Good stuff! I loved the comparison between the two attack-with-Sting scenes! :)

We had a discussion about whether or not they'd digitally shrunk Frodo's pupils under the Sam-attack to make him more Gollum-like quite a long while ago, before caps of any kind were available to us...... This makes it much easier and more interesting! I'm still thinking they *are* using pupil size to underline the Gollum/Smeagol similarity, but I don't think they've tampered with Frodo's eyes digitally, they probably just used strong light?

ainon, hope you're having a nice holiday (Insert "envy, envy" smiley here!)

Another week coming up...... hopefully with the extended Mariole research, so we'll find out whether we're talking cheeks or adam's apple or something inbetween. Uhm.... that would be..... chin, right? :D

(((Faculty)))

Sheryl- I noticed you saved the pics as bmp files. Save them as jpgs and they will be smaller and load faster. They take awhile to come up as bmps.

Glad everyone is enjoying them! Feel free to snatch as many as you like! That's what they're there for.

Originally posted by peaceweaver
And I am still withholding my analysis of EJW's Jones Dillon. When does All I want get released in DVD?
September 16 :) . Which reminds me that I need to get over to amazon and change my debit card number before they send the order out--they still have my "pre-identity crisis" number.

I should be getting The War in the same shipment. Then will have to decide what to order next--and when I can afford it ;) . Not that I'm low on screencapping material :rolleyes: -- I still have Avalon and Ice Storm sitting here barely touched. Always open for requests, of course--IIRC, there's still a "back-ordered" request from before the website switch for Mikey's delight during the storm. Will have to check that out :) .

All of the Osgiliath discussion has been thought-provoking, with supremely educational visual aids :) . I was looking at the parts of the scene where Frodo is under the Nazgul's "spell"--to see just how much he was under its control. Frodo's eyes are locked onto the Nazgul immediately and stay that way until Sam grabs him.

But as far as Frodo fighting against it--I do believe we've got another time when Frodo had to be completely knocked out of the picture before the Ring and/or the Nazgul could get him to do what they wanted. Some people have said Frodo's face looks "relieved" as he starts to put on the Ring there. But IMO, he's not relieved--he's in dead hobbit mode!! He looks relieved because all his face muscles are slack. I assume he stays on his feet just because that's where they want him.

Here's a comparison between one of the "dead hobbit" pics from the Nazgul flyover scene in the marshes (rotated to put him in an upright position) and two frames from the Osgiliath encounter. IMHO, if anything, he actually looks "deader" in the Osgiliath pics:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/ToxPost.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/rotate-2.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/rotate-match.jpg

After the tumble down the stairs, the Ring's clearly in charge. But does anyone have a theory about what's going on before the tumble, when Sam grabs the Ring and Frodo obviously reacts with pain (see Sun/Mon avatar)? Is it Frodo trying to break free? Is it the Nazgul-Ring axis irate over the interruption--maybe even a reaction of pain from them at having the link severed? An overload of free-flowing angst :eek: ? Can't figure that one out.

Of course, the Nazgul and/or Ring are never completely in charge or Frodo would have put on the Ring immediately--to say nothing of Sam getting his throat slit.

from Sheryl
But it's mostly EW's face. I wish PJ had held the camera on Frodo's face clear through the realization - he switches to a long shot at that crucial point:
...notice what a strong resemblance that long shot has to the drawing PJ was determined to recreate for the Taming of Smeagol scene? Except that it's reversed. Another purposeful parallel? And another extremely geeky observation that I'm sure we could find some significance in if we tried hard enough ;) -- During the victim's-eye-view shots, when Frodo attacks Gollum he appears from the bottom of the screen, and when he attacks Sam he comes in from the top.

But getting back to PJ switching the camera shot at that point... [looks around furtively for any sign of the Spanish Inquisition]... I have a suspicion there are transformations even EJW has a hard time pulling off. Yes, I know, hard to believe (and bordering on heresy :eek: ). But the same thing happens during the Nazgul flyover scene--we don't see the exact moment Frodo slips over the edge into dead hobbit mode. We get a shot of Sam for that instant.

I do wish PJ had left out the lens distortion in the Osgiliath shots, though. For me, at least, it makes it harder to tell what Frodo's facial expression actually is as it changes.


----------------


And a welcome to Alyon and thanks to her daughter (okay, now when are you going to post ;) ?). As you can tell, we need all the help we can get. :rolleyes:

I had to delurk to say hello to Alyon, who delurked just long enough to get caught in our web! Don't go away, Alyon! Tell us what you love about the story, the books, or the movies, and what your daughter thinks of them! We love fresh blood! :D Umm..I mean, a fresh point of view.

Sheryl, thank you for that wonderful post. The pics (thanks Hobmom, too!) were of some of my favorite Frodo moments. And they are moments that Elijah should long be proud of, too!
What interests me are the times when the Ring *influences* Frodo, without Frodo initially realizing it.Sheryl- There is a moment that flashes by quite fast in the scene where Sam is telling Frodo he knows why Frodo snapped at him, that I saw the Ring's influence on Frodo, but he either caught it or it went by so fast he didn't notice it. :rolleyes: That is to say, he was acting like he didn't notice it or he got the better of it. :rolleyes: At least, that was my instant recollection when reading your description.

When Sam says "It's the Ring. You can't take your eyes off it. I've seen you". At that point, the look on Frodo's face becomes so suspicious, then PJ cuts away to Sam again. Frodo's expression there was pure gold, and it certainly wasn't a Frodo-reaction to Sam watching him with the Ring. He certainly didn't like Sam watching The Ring! And now I think of it, that initial reaction may have been part of what caused him to snap again at Sam "It's my task! Mine! My own!" (I think I got that right, without going back to the DVD to check exactly)

Anyone have any other thoughts on that moment? Alyon, can we entice you for a reaction? Probably not, but worth a try! ;)

Well, I'm glad some people enjoyed my rambling on about the two sword-at-the-throat occurances. I didn't think I was any too coherant, but I reckon the pictures made up for it. ;)

Originally posted by ainon
Welcome Alyon, and thank you for a beautiful first post. Many thanks to your daughter for outing you into our midst.

Alyon,
I'd like to know if your daughter is a stage or screen actor, or both. Then I want to find out what both of you think about the possibility of EW acting on stage. Just for starts. ;)

Originally posted by ainon
But if you'd like to talk M&Ms, and ponder the mystery of how they do too melt in your hand, well, we could get something going.

Link to "the Making of M&M's" below. If you click on the "History" button, you will discover that the key component of M&M's and their supposed ability to not melt in your hand was *ripped off* from some unknown probable-Spaniard.

I don't know about you, but I was devastated by this revalation. Yet another childhood hero bites the dust.

http://www.flatbush.org/projects/ZahavaB/makingof.htm

And while I admit they melt in your hand if you hold them too long (mostly a problem when sharing a bag, in my experience), at least it's a colorful and non-greasy melting...

originally posed by peaceweaver
by rights they shouldn't even have been at Osgiliath, right?

:D

I still get distracted watching that scene by the memory of my first viewing, when the guy beside me (longtime fan) responded to Sam's line with, "You got THAT right."

originally posted by Maeglian
but I don't think they've tampered with Frodo's eyes digitally, they probably just used strong light?

I don't think it's digital, or his pupils would have enlarged as Frodo regains control after attacking Sam, which I don't remember happening. I'd check, but that would mean taking the sound away from the kids' computer, and I've done that a bit much this weekend. :p

originally posted by tgshaw
But does anyone have a theory about what's going on before the tumble, when Sam grabs the Ring and Frodo obviously reacts with pain (see Sun/Mon avatar)? Is it Frodo trying to break free? Is it the Nazgul-Ring axis irate over the interruption--maybe even a reaction of pain from them at having the link severed? An overload of free-flowing angst ? Can't figure that one out.

I love that bit. (You're all so suprised.) My theory is that we're seeing the pain Frodo is always feeling when the Ring takes over that way. Frodo *has* to be fighting the entire time, because, hey, it's Frodo - we know Frodo isn't completely done in because he manages to come back, therefore he's fighting. Besides, if he wasn't in there fighting he would be able to come back so rapidly when offered the opportunity. Also, it's clear that the Ring taking over like that takes a lot out of Frodo, so logically he's in pain while it happens. Well, at least when you run the facts through my angsty brain, that's the logical conclusion. ;)

That's another reason his despair at the end seems valid to me - the guy has been through an absolute wringer. On top of getting dragged around by Faramir and fighting the Ring's efforts to switch over to a human (which I would assume continued after the scene in the cave, if in a more minor way), that's the longest time the Ring has ever taken Frodo over that way, and Frodo's suffering from serious exhaustion. Anyone who is at all depression prone is even more depression prone when exhausted. I would compare Frodo's momentary despair there to the prophet Elijah's, who showed up the prophets of Baal and then fled Jezebel's wrath and did your standard "I wish I were dead" sort of speech. God didn't yell at him for wimping out or scold him for losing courage - God just fed him and put him to bed - his despair was a physical thing, and the solution was a physical thing, and there was no blame to Elijah.

Same with Frodo, IMHO. His despair there was mostly from exhaustion, and Sam's talk, while encouraging, mostly gave him the time to gather his depleted resources enough that he could regain his perspective and go on.

originally posted by tgshaw
I have a suspicion there are transformations even EJW has a hard time pulling off. Yes, I know, hard to believe (and bordering on heresy )

Bordering, nothing! 'Tis the thing full and entire! :mad:

My theory is that PJ is holding back for an Oscar moment there - he's going to show Frodo falling under control of the Ring and then wrenching free full force, close up and on camera sometime in ROTK, and he doesn't want the impact diffused by comparatively minor transitions.

Whoops! :o

I will not anticipate I will not anticipate I will not anticipate...

That little slip up was your fault, tg. :mad: :p ;)

Carly,
After your discussion I really have to go back and rewatch the "Mine! My own!" scene. ;) It does seem like he's slipping in and out of Ring control there - he almost escapes it, Sam says something else and he's back under the spell almost entirely. But IIRC, both times he's being taken over or (the first time) escaping, he's either in the background or facing away from us - we only get clear shots when he's himself or nearly completely under the influence.

I also wanted to check out the Hobbits hiding from the Nazgul in the Dead Marshes with the Nazgul in Osgilliath - I hadn't made tgshaw's :cool: "dead Hobbit" connection, but I was thinking there were some parallels there. Maybe I'll compare the quality of the grimaces of pain. ;)

My guess on which body part Mariole will study next - the filitrum (probably misspelled that). :D Which would make a nice cheerful contrast to dead hobbits and grimaces of pain - some say humans couldn't smile without it. ;)

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
My guess on which body part Mariole will study next - the filitrum
You've done it! You've figured out how he does it! He has a body part the rest of us don't (and one I can't find in my Webster's or Mosby's Medical and Nursing Dictionaries). :p :p

Welcome Alyon and daughter. As a Faculty member once told me, "You have entered the realm of the ladies of the Wood, you cannot go back" :D

Sheryl--ramble on!!

Originally posted by kuduk
You've done it! You've figured out how he does it! He has a body part the rest of us don't (and one I can't find in my Webster's or Mosby's Medical and Nursing Dictionaries). :p :p



:p

It's that little dent centered over the lip right under your nose - I am no doubt misspelling it.

Philtrum?

Philitrum?

Filtrum?

Phylum?

Fillet?

Not helping, am I?

:D

Sheryl

I'm pretty sure it's "philtrum." At least, that's the Greek spelling. ;)

I learned that word when Dominic waxed poetic about Billy's philtrum in a recent edition of the fan club magazine: "Seventeen things I love about Billy" would have been an apt title.

Thank you, Faculty, for posting such wonderful research this weekend! Sheryl, I loved your Gollum/Sam encounter comparisons, with commentary by all and supplementary research by tg. I certainly never consciously drew those parallels before. I wonder if it was in fact intentional? Given the research, I'm pretty well convinced (I guess I was just too numb at the whole Osgiliath idea to process anything as subtle as artistic symmetry in the theatre). Either way, those tableaus make for a lovely contrast.

from Sheryl
the guy beside me (longtime fan) responded to Sam's line with, "You got THAT right."
:D

I was one of those who thought "day vs night" for the pupil reactions, but I'd changed my mind before I even got to your explanation. After all, it's really just a sound stage, neither day nor night, but all up to the lighting. If you want Frodo's pupils large, you light him that way (or put those drops in his eyes, whichever!). I'm glad we're getting back to the Ring Encounter line of research. I think it's a rich vein. Hobmom, I'll peruse your mother lode of pics when I get a chance. I assume you put some Faramir ones in there?

Carleenya, I'm so glad you're "lurking with gusto!" Keep it up! I really enjoy your comments.

from ainon
Does this mean your RL homework is all done, and you'll be able to devote ample time to Frodo body parts now? Err. No, that sentence does not mean what it seems to mean.
Oh, I wouldn't be put out if that sentence meant what you didn't mean it to mean. We're all adults here, engaged in scientific research. For the good of the outfit, and all that ... :D

But to answer your question, Yes! I have successfully delivered all the new books in rough draft form. Whew! It was a hairy 3 weeks. But now that I'm down to the revision level, I'll have some time for recreational posting.

I really enjoyed reading your body part speculations. Yes, it was a cheap parting shot, but I loved seeing your reactions! Contenders are cheekbones and cheeks (with no double entendre whatsoever), the philtrum, adam's apple and chin. Yes, you got it! The right answer was definitely posted. I'm working on a few comparison pics. This will be a very weak bit of research, but it personally intrigued me so I felt I must pursue it to its bitter end. In fact, I will probably pursue all of these topics to their bitter end depending on how much time I need to kill before ROTK comes out. Anyone with meaningful acting comments, please post them, or you might see worse things than body part comparison pics going up on this board.


Ooh, ooh, tg, request! *waves hand in the air* I'd like to see the "space cadet" scene from Ice Storm where Mikey fails to catch the football. The real reason? I love the way his hair moves when he runs (this is my form of "cloak action addition"). The reason I will state publicly: I want to see if the "vacant Mikey" look is anything like the "vacant Frodo" look. I don't think it is, it's just a lame excuse that I will float publicly in hopes of throwing you all off. Is it working? :o


from Alyon
I'll write again when you reach 8000. (or maybe sooner).
While I cannot possibly match the emotional potency of a 15 year old daughter, let me just say "Welcome" and hope that you will join us again before the 8,000 post mark. Cheers!

Originally posted by Mariole

Contenders are cheekbones and cheeks (with no double entendre whatsoever), the philtrum, adam's apple and chin. Yes, you got it! The right answer was definitely posted.

Sheee. And Prim had the gall to call me a tease. :rolleyes: ;)

Sheryl

Oh My, I am overwhelmed by your welcome, and also rather intimidated by your invitation to post, though I thank you sincerely. Will I have to come up with something intelligent to say?? I am kind of scared. Lurking is easier.

I know I have no chance of matching the level of knowledge and scrutiny you all have (which I am quite in awe of)--but since you asked, I will say that what interests me most deeply about Tolkien, the movies, Elijah--this whole phenomenon--is something about how stories can be translated into reality. I wrote about this once (under a different name) at another site (my only other internet post). I think it was titled, To Deliver Reality. What interests me in stories is how they can help us live. Not just to fantasize--but help inspire us to live and create lives and a world that we can believe in. Frodo attracts me because he is a hero that triumphs (and he does triumph, in my mind) with earthly magical qualities that are reachable to us--they are not from out of this world--he triumphs with heart and soul and love and endurance (pretty magical)--not with an otherworldly magic or with extraordinary muscle. Granted he is blessed with an extraordinary dose of his goodness (I lapse into a dazed smile for a moment... allowing myself to digress internally, to contemplate said Frodo) . BUT (waking myself up) all of us can learn from his fight and try to access those qualities in ourselves to cope with our daily struggles, and maybe on a bigger level, in world struggles (I mean, what else is working?). What interests me in Elijah is that I think, as a person, he is Frodo in that sense--he values those qualities. I love that he talks about living well being more important than career. That he thought swimming with dolphins an important reason to act in a not-so-great film. I love that his focus is not on competing with others. I think it took a person like that to reawaken Frodo for us. To give us a hero we can feel inspired by and take to heart. He is a very useful hero in that sense. And I am awfully grateful to Elijah Wood for bringing Frodo alive as a real person. Just as Peter Jackson tried to make Middle-Earth a real place. Just as all of the actors believed in their characters. I hope Elijah always believes in Frodo. Though I hope to see him in many movies, I imagine being allowed to be Frodo has to be as important to him as whatever career moves he might have in front of him. I do wonder what roles he will take--what does Frodo do next??? (I am sorry--I have yet to have my coffee and this makes me giggle to myself thinking of Frodo auditioning in his elven cloak) (get a grip).

More seriously, I think Elijah is a wonderful example, for young actors, or for anyone, for that matter. His perspective is healthy and generous. We need that in this crazy world.

Ah, and you asked about the daughter's perspective on a couple of things. The daughter (my daughter) will likely put her two cents in when she comes home from school--but from over my shoulder. She dare not look to closely at this site because she is scrupulously avoiding any place that might contain hints as to what happens in the next movie. My daughter is extremely into LotRs, but has not read the books and is determined not to know anything so that she can experience the full impact of the story. She suffers much (friendly) abuse from school mates who think not reading them thus far is improper---and so she asks--"Won't they (meaning The Faculty) scorn me?" I assure her not. I am sure many of you share the delight of watching these movies with someone who doesn't know the end. It is so so so fun!!!She intends to read the books as soon as the movies are over, I promise you. But since she started with the movies first, she wants to finish the movies first.

And to answer Shilohmm about film and theater. Yes, she has done some of both and her comments and mine probably won't be too much different than those I suspect you guys have probably already brought up (as you are so thorough!). Theater acting and film acting are different because in theater you have to act very big--an actor has to convey gestures and presence to the back of a theater. Film acting has to be very small, because your face is magnified magnified magnified--and much should be conveyed in small ways. We know Elijah is the master at this. As to how he would do in theater--I am guessing that he could do well. Because he has so much energy in real life. He has learned to contain it for film making. He has great control and focuses that energy into expression. But given the chance he could probably use that energy in a larger way in theater. Also, those eyes are such an advantage....someone in the back row could see those piercing blues, even without stage makeup. I am no expert. Those are just my thoughts.

Thank you all again. I will now go have my coffee.
It's about time.

Alyon - lovely to see you posting again and that coffee is very well deserved! Hope it was good! I think you've nailed to a T why the posters here are so taken with Frodo and Elijah both. Thank you! :)

Also looking forward to having your daughter post over your shoulder..... Let us know if that means we'll have to start marking any RotK comments as spoilers, of course. I know people in RL who are totally into LotR and who haven't read the book and avoid spoilers like the plague, so I understand her standpoint. Although I could never do that myself, I'm not strong-willed enough....... I'd have thrown myself at the book in a hurry. In fact, that's exactly what I did, all those years ago, and that was after seeing the *Bakshi* movie! :o


Mariole, you big tease! Looking forward to the cheekbone research. That's it, isn't it?? Or maybe...... No. I will NOT speculate! :D


I'm following the discussion of TTT Ring-impact on Frodo with *great* interest. I've had too little time to re-watch TTT yet (only once so far :o ), so I'll have to check the scenes in further detail. What a chore! ;)

Hello Alyon,

a (belated) welcome to the Faculty Lounge :) ! Thank you for your lovely post - I love your thoughts about Frodo and Elijah. I hope your daughter will discover that we are completely harmless. Crazy but harmless :D !

Hi, Mariole - congrats on your finished work and I'm looking forward to your brand-new results of scientific research ;) !

Just popping by to welcome Alyon to The Faculty Lounge. What a lovely post! :) I hope you'll join us and contribute on a regular basis. It must be very difficult for your daughter to remain spoiler-free for ROTK - she must be strong-willed - I couldn't wait to find out what happened to Frodo and Sam the first time I read LOTR 30-odd years ago. I'm sure she will love the books when she does read them.

I've been a bit wrapped up with RL issues for the past week or so - mainly one sick Jack Russell Terrier - again. Last October our Holly had a serious liver infection, and now she has pancreatitis!:( We spent a few sleepless nights during last week watching over her, and she had to spend a night at the vets on a drip.(sob!) We've been so worried about her, but the good news is that with anitbiotics, painkillers and some very un-appetizing-looking low-fat dog food she seems much better now - she has got her bark back, and wants to play. Not sure yet whether it's an acute flare-up or if she will need long-term treatment - more blood tests on Friday. Fingers (and toes) crossed!

I've managed to lurk a couple of times this week just to catch up. Sheryl - I loved your comparison of the TT Gollum & Sam attacks. I think Elijah is amazing in both scenes. Your comments I would say are spot-on. With Gollum Frodo is Frodo, with Sam Frodo is lost somewhere inside himself - he simply isn't there mentally- and it takes Sam's pleading, 'Don't you know your Sam?' to bring him back. Frodo's anguished expression as he returns to awareness and realizes what is happening is heart-wrenching.

Haven't had much time with Holly being ill to create any TT collages or other goodies yet, but I think Hobmom's screencaps and Tg's cap sequences on 'frodolives' are wonderful.

Mariole - I can't wait to see your next research project! You're certainly putting that grant cash to good use - for the purposes of serious Faculty research, of course!;) Keep up the good work.

Hello again to Carleenya and kuduk. (seems strange not calling you 'nurse') It's nice to see you both posting again.

deluby - Have you caught up yet?

We already have one occasional "poster" who's in the same position as Alyon's daughter regarding RotK: Kelsey, aka LetYourLoveShin[e]. So it probably wouldn't hurt to label any RotK book spoilers--but I know it's awfully easy to forget in the midst of a discussion! I think if I'd seen the movies before reading the book, I might be doing the same thing as those two are (if I could control myself :eek: ); I'd probably want to get through the story in one medium before tackling another. As long as they eventually venture into the real Middle-earth ;) :) .

Alyon, I completely agree with you about Elijah being the right person to portray Frodo not only because of his acting skills but because of his values and his heart. I still think JRRT was pulling some strings on that casting, especially with all of the "coincidences" that led up to it... :)

Beautiful thoughts, too, on "To Deliver Reality"--that's so much how I resonate with Tolkien's writing (which, for me, Frodo's always been the center of). Don't know if you've ever ventured over to my website--but you might enjoy some of the Tolkien-related essays there, besides all the EJW-related pages :) . No URL needed, just click on the "www" at the bottom of this post.

Which brings up a general question for anyone here--with the webhost I have now, I can add a forum to the website, but I don't know that it's really needed. I know there are some non-KD visitors there, because once in awhile one will email me, but I think most of the "regular audience" is reading this thread, too. If there are people who think it might be fun, you can PM me--otherwise I'll assume there's no reason to start one (that way no one has to send me a message saying they think it's a really bad idea :p ). My guess is it would end up with more of a Tolkien slant than an EJW slant, just because that's not covered as much here...

-----------

Most important, many :k :k :k to (((Holly))).

originally posted by Alyon

I think it took a person like that to reawaken Frodo for us.


I like that phrase - "reawaken Frodo for us." :cool:

Alyon, tell your daughter there's one other person in the Faculty who isn't reading ROTK, at least, until she sees the movie. Can't remember who it is at the moment, though. :rolleyes: :p [tgshaw did! :D] I doubt I'd have the self-discipline to do that, but I think that's as valid an approach as reading the book first. Have you read Winter's first response thread in the FOTR forum? She hadn't read LOTR, and I find her observations fascinating - not to mention brilliantly written and hilarious. :D

(((((BLOSSOM))))) ((((Holly))))

It's so hard when our critters are hurting. :( I'm glad she's doing better.

I'm going to argue against your position that "it takes Sam's pleading, 'Don't you know your Sam?' to bring him back." Maybe. I think Sam helps Frodo to come completely back, but I also think the Ring miscalculated there - Frodo wouldn't let it force him to kill Sam, and I suspect it was Frodo's desperation as he realized what was going on that caused the first "crack" in the Ring's hold on him there. Must be a really strange internal process, though - I doubt Frodo thinks, "Ack, the Ring is forcing me to do something terrible" - he thinks, "What am I doing?" Only in retrospect would he realize how much influence the Ring had on him.

kuduk,

Just for you, I went and tracked down the first place I'd ever seen the word - in Elliot S. Maggin's Superman:Last Son of Kryton; apparently he spelled it, "filtrum" and the Warner books editor didn't correct him. I confess I wondered for a while if he'd made it up - it was in a science-fictiony setting. :p

Couldn't find the interview BunnieBugs referred to; it's not in either of the last two issues of the official fan mag although I do remember reading it in the Playgroup or Mob I think. My two visual dictionaries, however, spell it "philtrum". That's one thing they agree on - one of them insists the bit of the nose dividing the nostrils is the "septum," while the other insists it's only the septum *inside*, while the external part of it is the "columella." And they disagree on the proper spelling of the technical name for the nostrils - one spells it "nares" and the other "naris." The one that prefers "naris" says the outside curve of the nose over the nostrils is the "ala"; the other one is silent on that issue.

The one that prefers "naris" also gives the nose a root and a dorsum, while the other combines the two into the "bridge". Nothing new or particularly disputed in the discussion of the eye, but I had no idea that the parts of the outer ear had so many names… I suddenly have the urge to write a g-rated seduction scene wherein someone is nibbling on the victim's ear. "She gently kissed his helix, then she tongued his intertragic notch and breathed gently into his external acoustic meatus." - doesn't that sound romantic? Or pornographic? Or something? :p :D

I particularly like the "intertragic notch," also known as the "antitragus," which name I like much less. Must go search Hobmom's screen caps for EW's intertragics sometime…

Sheryl

edit:

simulposted with tgshaw -

Wasn't someone here asking after the Two Ringbearers and you'd taken it down? Or was it the essay you'd taken down? I was surprirsed to see The Two Ringbearers up, at any rate. :p I ended up reading through all the FOTR picture collections last night long after I should have gone to bed. I went looking for the "It's My Movie" page for HR's positive movie thread and got distracted.... ;)

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
Couldn't find the interview BunnieBugs referred to
I don't know that it's important, but it's in the June/July 2003 issue of the magazine (it has Merry on the cover). I don't have it, but it can be read over at the site that shall not be named. And it's worth a read -- it's a hoot! Love that Dominic.

And the article spells it -- in fact, Dom spells it -- filtrum. :)

Just saw your post, Sheryl. Since I'm still at the office, I checked Dorland's Medical Dictionary, and... oh, my... :o I have to warn you that their entry on "philtrum" is a bit... racy!

The word comes from the Greek "philtron" which means "love potion." Definition 1 for philtrum is, "the vertical groove in the median portion of the upper lip, a part of the prolabium." Definition 2, however, is, "a philter," which the same dictionary defines as "a substance or object alleged to provoke love or carnal appetite."

How the word for "love potion" got connected with the upper lip... it doesn't say.

(The prolabium, BTW, is "the prominent central part of the upper lip." From the Latin word for lip. Nothing too exciting there.)


Now just saw BB's post :) -- Dorland's does have an entry for something called the "filtrum ventriculi" also called "Merkel's filtrum"--it says that one's from Latin, but doesn't say Latin for what :confused: . It's defined as "a depression between the two projections formed in the lateral wall of the vestibule of the larynx by the arytenoid and cuneiform cartilages." Okay... You'd think that if something was called "Merkel's filtrum," there'd be some kind of generic definition for filtrum, but there isn't--at least not in Dorland's.

So was Dom looking down Billy's throat for some reason?? :p


P.S. to Sheryl--Yes, one of the nice things about the paid hosting site is plenty of space to put back up all the pages I'd had to take down. I'd always kept the pages intact on my hard drive, so didn't have to recreate anything--just fit it into the new page design.

Okay, the last two pages is just glaring evidence of why I LOVE THIS THREAD! :k You guys are such a hoot & a half. Give you a word you don't know, or a body part you haven't investigated :eek: and you're off and running! No wonder lurkers are afraid to post around here - I was scared of joining in with such intelligent posters myself for ages! :)

But that was ages ago, and everyone here is really so nice, even if they are brainiacs! No one ever made me feel simple, but it has sometimes been a challenge to keep up. That is, it would have been without the accompanying pictures, which is really what we all come back for, now isn't it? ;)

I wonder if they would let me into college if my application stated the reason I wanted a college education was to fit in better in The Faculty Lounge of Khazad-Dum! :D Never mind. If the college profs didn't know what Kazad-Dum was, I would lose all respect for them anyway. :rolleyes:

Nice post for a Lurker, Alyon! You must have been lurking around a long time - you fit right in here! You know, we had quite a discussion a very long time ago about Elijah acting on the stage. I'm sure I was in the minority in that I didn't want his subtlety touched by the magnification of acting that would entail. I just love his subtle expressions. I think he's awesome! I realize, on some level, that this is a very foolish attitude. Look at the wonderful acting done by Ian McK & Sean Bean, for example, who both have vast theatre experience. But I just think that Elijah's such a young natural that I don't want him "fiddled with" (so to speak). ;)

It's so cool to experience this story with a newbie - but I don't know how you can exert such self-control as to not tell your daughter more than she wants to know! I have wondered how I would have reacted to PJ's epic without the life-changing experience of reading the books at a young age. But how cool it would be to envision these characters when I read it. It's good and it's bad. You are so lucky that your daughter shares your joy in LoTR. What a great thing to share as friends. Thanks for joining us! I'm glad you did! :cool:

Wow, I'm really enjoying all the intelligent discussion that's going on. Thanks for joining us, Alyon. There's something to be said for having an "unspoiled" viewer to sit through the movies with. I have a friend I take and each time it's a riot! I hope I won't disappoint Carleenya too much, as I'm afraid I'm going to bring the "intelligence" density down a notch with this post.

I will get into the analysis of tonight's special body part shortly, but first I feel I have to give one final nod to the sterno-cleido-mastoid. This is a favorite body part of mine, so it gets one more mention.

Take the following picture. Notice how the strong vertical line of the sterno-cleido-mastoid draws your attention up to the face. It's virtually impossible to put your eyes anywhere on this picture except on Frodo's face, so strong is this upward pull. I defy you to look anywhere else in this frame -- you just can't do it, can you? Nope, the vertical nature of the scm, bolstered by a particularly strong showing from the mandible, just anchors your attention on Frodo's delighted expression. This frame has always been filled with "movie magic" to me, which must be why I so enjoy looking at it. I have visited this view time and again. Thank you, sterno-cleido-mastoid.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/scmp3.jpg


But enough of that. On to tonight's topic, which is ...

The line in the cheek.

Tg and kuduk were right! Although they gave me credit for considering the entire cheek, which was more than I deserve. And I seriously want to delve into these other body parts -- uh, so to speak. The cheekbones and especially the adam's apple should be a very rich field. Not to mention the philtrum -- "love potion," eh? The things you learn in LOTR fandom... :)

Anyway, as a mental refresher, here is ainon's original party pic:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/c1.jpg

That cheek. That line.

Why (you might ask) does Mariole care about the line in the cheek?

It has to do with aging. And here, all you spoiler-resistant people might want to jump ship. I'll be engaging in a mildly spoilerish, speculative discussion of what happens to Frodo's character in ROTK.

The thing that started me off on this train of thought was the following spoiler pic from the third movie. Although it looks to me clearly posed, it does reveal something peculiar about our hero. He appears to have lines on his face, such as might be caused by extreme mental fatigue and perseverance beyond normal physical tolerance. Out of respect for our spoiler-lite crew, I'll post this as a link:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/frodolite.jpg

I did the best I could to reproduce both the lightened and unlightened version of this pic. In both shots, it really looks as if Frodo (as well as the other hobbits) has aged.

Now, no one has remarked on this before -- well, maybe I did, once or twice perhaps, but that Elijah Wood guy looks young. Yes, I'm afraid in his normal day-to-day life he doesn't look anywhere near 50. So I was thinking, how are they gonna age this guy? He's a kid (imagine derogatory inflection applied before I watched FOTR and was completely seduced by his character).

I already noticed the trick with the hair. Give the guy dark hair so you can put flecks of white in it, as an indicator of the stress he's gone through. Call me a dim-witted reader if you like, but when I read about Gandalf telling Butterbur that Frodo was "fairer than most," I always took that to mean that his hair was on the blond side. It took a (male) friend of mine to point out, after I was puzzling about this in the movie, that Tolkien meant fair as in "nice looking." Duh. So for me, seeing the dark hair was a "dead giveaway" that PJ was going to try to age Frodo by putting streaks of white in his hair (they'd never show up on a blond). I still don't know if this will come to pass.

What surprised me was the lines. Our boyish Movie!Frodo has quite the unlined face. Yet the lines on his face in this pic look quite natural, even regal. It's as if his character has been burned away to reveal the noble spirit inside.

So I set out to find those lines. They were there all the time, in plain view. You see them most in an extreme expression, such as a wince or a yell or a grin. In the series below, the leftmost pic shows the most extreme expression (cheek lines pronounced). You can see them in the side view pretty easily, but when he turns his head to face front -- poof! They disappear. The expression is exactly the same, but you can't see them at all. They are the amazing disappearing lines.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/c2.jpg


I've come to the conclusion that they simply aren't highlighted -- accented by dirt or makeup or whatever. Since the camera sees "flat," it won't particularly pick out the lines. In the series below, Frodo's beaming smile accentuates the cheek lines. The middle shot does not directly follow the first; it just shows how, at a severe angle, you can see where the line of the cheek narrows the face. If the face beyond this line were to be "shadowed" with makeup up to the mandibular flare, it would make the face appear very narrow -- perhaps as a way for us to get our "thin and starved" Frodo?

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/c3.jpg

In the soft expression in the final frame above, you can see how the lines, barely noticeable in young Fro, could be accented to make him appear older. Once you know what to look for, you can identify the latent cheek musculature even in many full-front shots, as in the following:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/c4.jpg

So, am I just making this up? Does anyone else see these lines? Has everyone left this conversation because their attention has been focused back upward by that amazingly powerful sterno-cleido-mastoid?

I await, as always, the Faculty's impartial determination. :p

Mariole, my luv. You're not quite....right, are you, dear? ;)

Nice piccies, tho! :D

Oh, and BTW,I hope I won't disappoint Carleenya too much, as I'm afraid I'm going to bring the "intelligence" density down a notch with this post.

I will get into the analysis of tonight's special body part shortly, but first I feel I have to give one final nod to the sterno-cleido-mastoid.If this is bringing the intelligence density "down a notch", I feel a sudden kinship to The Missing Link. :rolleyes: You just can't help being smart, can you, dear. :D

originally posted by BunnieBugs
I don't know that it's important, but it's in the June/July 2003 issue of the magazine

Of course it's important - that is a hilarious interview. I was just too lazy to dig past my Funk and Wagnalls dictionary and Strong's Concordance to get to the older issues of the fan mag after checking the two most recent (which were in the top layer of that shelf) - *knowing* the interview was down there motivated me. :p

originally posted by tgshaw
How the word for "love potion" got connected with the upper lip... it doesn't say.

Ought to be the lower lip, I'd think - doesn't the lower lip have more nerve endings? ;)

originally posted by tgshaw
So was Dom looking down Billy's throat for some reason??

One never knows, with those two, but his use of the word filtrum isn't evidence - he says, "The space between his nose and his lip. I think it's called the filtrum."

originally posted by tgshaw
I'd always kept the pages intact on my hard drive, so didn't have to recreate anything--just fit it into the new page design.

So I was hallucinating when I thought you'd added shots to the "Cry if I want to" page?

originally posted by Carleenya
The Faculty Lounge of Khazad-Dum! Never mind. If the college profs didn't know what Kazad-Dum was, I would lose all respect for them anyway.

Yeah, but think about it - if they know Khazad-Dum from the book or the movie they'd think "The Faculty Lounge of Khazad-Dum" would contain a bunch of educated orcs! :eek: :D

Originally posted by Mariole

So, am I just making this up? Does anyone else see these lines?

You're on the right track, kiddo. It's been many moons since I did any studying on movie make up (and that, of course, was mostly oriented toward s-f effects and monsters :p ), but I do know that if you want a character to look younger you soften the lines of the face, and if you want him to look older or stressed you accent the lines of the face. That's why you put a bit of vaseline on the lens if you're filming someone you want to look younger - it softens the contrast. The somewhat "out of focus" result was so obvious when the camera was on Cybill Shepherd of Moonlighting that when the (failing) show on the rival network, Riptide, did a parody of Moonlighting, the camera was just flat out of focus when on the female character...

I remember flicking through a book on "beauty" make-up, with pictures of female stars before and after make-up, and it is incredible what they can do with colored goo and the right lighting. You can change the whole contour of the face, which is what I assume they'll do/have done with Frodo. I expect they had to do some work on changing EW's face a bit to blend the reshoots with the original stuff, too, since the planes and shape of his face have changed a bit. Then again, maybe they didn't bother; not everyone is obsessive as the Faculty, and most people would probably go with the flow and just excuse any oddities as curiousities of different light and angle.

I keep intending to see if I can pick out the pick-ups, but I haven't been able to disengage enough from the story yet! :rolleyes: :D

The human face does change a great deal in appearance with a change in light, angle of shot, and expression - that's one of the reasons digitally created human characters are such a challenge to do well. There are, what, forty? sixty? facial muscles that work in ten related groups of varying flexibility, and if a program doesn't consider them all the resulting character's face doesn't change the way a human's would. One anti-aging technique is injecting the face with botox, which relaxes muscles and thus makes the person look younger - although I once read an article claiming that actors who use botox can't act as well, because the faces' muscles are less or non-responsive, so their expressions are muted!

Not a problem EW is likely to face in the near future. :rolleyes: I confess that I, too, looked at an early still from the film and said, "Why did they cast a kid as Frodo?" And then the first time I watched the movie I was sold on him about the time he joined Gandalf in the cart...

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm

Yeah, but think about it - if they know Khazad-Dum from the book or the movie they'd think "The Faculty Lounge of Khazad-Dum" would contain a bunch of educated orcs! :eek: :D

Or dwarves, maybe. That'd be a bit more plausible.:D

Welcome, Alyon!:)

Will I have to come up with something intelligent to say?? I am kind of scared.

Nah, that part's optional. They still let me hang around, after all.:D But you don't have to worry about that - wonderful post!:cool: I like your thoughts on "To Deliver Reality.":)

Mariole - awesome.:D And Sheryl, great sword-attack comparisons. (Now I'm really regretting loaning out my TT DVD...as if my withdrawal wasn't already bad enough...:rolleyes: )

Well, I wrote this last night but my browser crashed. :(
I'm just vain enough to still post it. :)

Ah, Mariole! As usual, you more than come through. I do see them, I do!


Originally posted by Carleenya
I wonder if they would let me into college if my application stated the reason I wanted a college education was to fit in better in The Faculty Lounge of Khazad-Dum!

I’d been needing a good excuse to get my Master’s. :)
Then maybe I could put together an intelligent, insightful and hilarious Faculty essay like Sheryl, tg, Mariole, Maeg, etc. instead of just agreeing with quotes and throwing out extraneous comments! Well, somebody needs to fill the lower echelon to entice lurkers to post! :)
Although, come to think of it, the senior Faculty members extend such warm welcomes to all…well I’m enjoying myself.

Back to the quotes and extraneous:

Originally posted by shilohmm

Have you read Winter's first response thread in the FOTR forum? She hadn't read LOTR, and I find her observations fascinating - not to mention brilliantly written and hilarious.
[/B]
Alyon and daughter: I HIGHLY recommend this,
http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2126
but there are major RoTK book spoilers in her comments after the last section on 8/17/03.

Sheryl-thanks for the anatomy research re filtrums (filtra?), etc. If I’d known how racy outer ear or “pinna” (no, I’m not making it up :)) terminology could be I would’ve kept that old anatomy and physiology text.

tg, I imagine you chose today’s avatar while investigating Merkel’s filtrum and nasal septums. From that view we could study his uvula and frenulum too! (Be still my heart!) :D

FWIW: I noticed the other night that Elijah seems to have blue lower eyeliner (ala Lady Di) on in “release him or I’ll cut your throat” and black or none in “you will lead us to the black gate” and Murderous Frodo in Osgiliath.


I’ve always found it interesting that Frodo brings the sword closer to Sam’s throat after
“it’s me…Sam…don’t you know your Sam?”. It’s like the Ring is tightening it’s hold when it feels resistance. It also reminds me of the ‘methinks he doth protest too much’ part of the Huck Finn One Take Scene. There’s that moment when he starts to realize just how wrong he is and defensively pushes back against it.

As a fellow Tolkien virgin when we saw the first two movies, I’m curious about Alyon’s daughter’s reaction to Osgiliath, not knowing the whole Farfromthebookamir history. Did it make sense to her, within the confines of the movies?

Personally, I’m still on the “relief” and “pain” side of the Osgiliath ring-offering emotional theory (although looking at that one “dead hobbit” Osgiliath still I do see tg’s point). I actually tried to explain this (relief, pain, anger, etc.) to my daughter when we watched the movie the other night, carefully avoiding any blatant sexual reference. You could just about hear my husband roll his eyes. He was one of those who blurted out something like “you‘ve got that right!” to Sam’s “by rights we shouldn’t even be here” the first time we saw the movie.

I guess I play devil’s advocate with the Osgiliath scenes, though I sometimes feel like I‘m defending North or Flipper. ANYWAY, despite all the purist complaints and the logic complaints, just look at his face! How many different emotions register from “they‘re here“ to “I can‘t do this“?!: I started to name as many as I could think of but that destroys the purity of the performance.
I don’t have to be able to read music to enjoy Mozart and I don’t have to completely understand…..what I‘m trying to say is Elijah Wood can act a hell of a lot better than I can write….well, actually that’s not saying much….“ARRGH!”, once again!

from kuduk
I guess I play devil’s advocate with the Osgiliath scenes, though I sometimes feel like I‘m defending North or Flipper.
:eek: :D :p :eek: :D :p :eek: :D :p

I second the request about the newbie Farfromthebookamir reaction. Alyon, would your daughter be willing to venture an opinion, over your shoulder perhaps?

I will say that I took my sister, a complete Tolkien neophyte, to the second movie. Almost every one of her questions where she began, "I don't understand why..." turned out to be a Peter Jackson deviation from the book. Not that she wouldn't probably have had questions anyway, but I began to feel that Tolkien was being seriously vindicated as every single source of puzzlement came from an adaptation, vs. canon.

Sheryl, thanks for your comments on lighting and make-up. It's really amazing how they pull that off.

And Carleenya, not to worry. As long as you stand well back of the do-not-cross line, and throw energy bars and plastic mugs of coffee into my cage, I'm quite safe. :p

Blossom -- :k to Holly. Glad to hear that she is getting better. ((((Blossom & family))))

Alyon, wonderful, beautiful post! After all the deep thoughtful Frodoness you've shared (which made me smile and feel all warm and nice), and the acting info (always cool to read stuff like that from real people who really are into the craft in RL), this is a step in the shallow direction, but hey, you feel safe and comfortable amongst us, right? So ... you into Sick Hobbits? Are you? Especially of the fevered pained variety? Named either Frodo or Pippin? :D

*Alyon's daughter starts to wonder just what she might have gotten her mother into*

Cheers to your daughter for sticking to her guns and not spoiling herself one way or the RealTolkien way. ;) I read the books when I was a kid and while I wouldn't seriously wish to trade the years I've known Frodo, I do sometimes wonder what a joy it must be to sit and watch unspoiled as the spectacle of Middle Earth unfolds before me.

Originally posted by shilohmm
I think Sam helps Frodo to come completely back, but I also think the Ring miscalculated there - Frodo wouldn't let it force him to kill Sam, and I suspect it was Frodo's desperation as he realized what was going on that caused the first "crack" in the Ring's hold on him there. Must be a really strange internal process, though - I doubt Frodo thinks, "Ack, the Ring is forcing me to do something terrible" - he thinks, "What am I doing?" Only in retrospect would he realize how much influence the Ring had on him.

Yeah, that's my take on it too. Not adding anything to the discussion, but I am enjoying all the points and all the pics. Tonight is my last night on vacation, and I plan to spend it by just staring at things, reading things, and not thinking much of things. Which is how I'm justifying to myself the hour and a half spent watching Valentine earlier tonight. But at least the really annoying brats did die .... :rolleyes: :o

Mariole - I've always noticed lines in actors' cheeks. Never really knew why I was noticing them, but those lines would occasionally have added angstiness to scenes (irrespective of whether the actor has acting talent or not. look, when you're into angst, the thing that really matters is how well the character bleeds. that the actor can make the character look like it really hurts when he bleeds is the grand bonus)

*and now Carly starts to consider how far away she needs to stay from ainon*

Anyway, thank you for bringing Frodo cheeklines of the nonbuttvariety into the annals of Faculty research. Much obliged, and very appreciative of Sheryl's added comments as well. Will comment with better wit (yeah, right) and postulate comparison caps of Frodo or nonFrodo variety after vacation is officially over. For now, if you'll all excuse me, I think there's another really bad movie coming on in about ten minutes ....

Originally posted by kuduk
...How many different emotions register from “they‘re here“ to “I can‘t do this“?!: I started to name as many as I could think of but that destroys the purity of the performance.
I don’t have to be able to read music to enjoy Mozart and I don’t have to completely understand…
Exactly! And if we understood it all, when could we ask, "How does he do it?" :p .

The way Elijah shows emotions--and not just at Osgiliath--is one of the things that convinces me a lot of it comes from being able to connect somehow directly with the character. So often in one shot there are so many emotions combined that I can't separate them all--just as would happen in those situations in "real life." I'd imagine a lot of actors could think, "Okay, now, I'm going to look angry," and be able to do it. But how do you "plan" to look determined with a touch of pride and a bit of coolness, while making it clear that you're in pain because the other person doesn't understand--but, then, neither do you, exactly--and you also have to include uncertainty that you're trying to cover up with that determination, mistrust that needs to look like trust while the audience knows it really isn't, profound physical and mental fatigue that you're fighting against, fear that you're making a horrible mistake but a sinking feeling that it's unavoidable, and--always somewhere in your mind at every moment--"if only Gandalf were here" and that constant, subtle pull of the Ring? (Otherwise known as, "Lead the way, Smeagol.")

Sheryl--Yes, dear, I'm afraid you're hallucinating. You might want to get a cold compress and lie down for a bit. ;) -- Actually, I have toyed with the idea of replacing the pics on the "It's My Movie" page with results of my own screencapping, but I've never done it. Along with the pages of really bad jokes (which I note no one has been clamoring for :p ;) ), it's something I put together before the FotR DVD was released, so they're all pics snatched off the web.

-----------

Wonderful anatomy lesson as always Mariole (can I guess that you were ROTFLYAO while writing that paragraph about the eye being drawn ever upward...? :D ).

It's kinda flattering when we get posts talking about our intelligence, but it also gives me the feeling that we're pulling off one of the greatest scams of all time (I mean, are we actually so convincing that it looks like we know what we're talking about :eek: :confused: ? Exceptions made for peaceweaver regarding art history, erendis on camera angles, and Goldenberry on medical matters, since they actually do know what they're talking about :) .)

I brought home this big, big stack of papers from work today to go through and prepare this evening. I have no time to visit the Faculty. I'm sure you'll all believe me after reading this short post. :D Ack! I have no willpower!


First things first: (((Blossom))) Oh, I know how too well how bad it feels when your dog is really ill. Best wishes for a swift recovery to (((Holly)))

Carly - so good to see you posting here again! :) Don't go away again now!
From tg
It's kinda flattering when we get posts talking about our intelligence, but it also gives me the feeling that we're pulling off one of the greatest scams of all time. What she said. I mean, I *hope* everyone else is a scam too 'cause otherwise I'd probably be too timid and embarrassed to ever post another word. :o

(Yeah, I hear you all laughing: That'll be the day!) :o From ainon
I'm justifying to myself the hour and a half spent watching Valentine earlier tonight. Wow! Even in my serious Angel-watching days way back when I never managed to justify watching that one. Although I did read a David Boreanaz interview where *he* justified taking the role in that film; - your utter boring standard tripe about how the role was challenging and interesting, and how he thought he could get to understand the character and really "find" him for the audience. Yeah right. Why can't they just tell the truth, although politely? In case anyone's asking why this DB-bashing memory is relevant here; - hey, did you ever see EJW go on like that in interviews when talking about a two-dimensional role he'd taken on, in his case for instance to get to swim with dolphins? ;) Otherwise, ainon, dear, I think this holiday is getting to you. Are you sure you don't need a big dosis of films about healthy, happy, rich, smiling, carefree, beautiful, lovely, kind people to counter all this angst? :D From Kuduk
I’ve always found it interesting that Frodo brings the sword closer to Sam’s throat after “it’s me…Sam…don’t you know your Sam?”. It’s like the Ring is tightening it’s hold when it feels resistance. That's interesting. I've noticed that too; - the way the tip of the sword really presses into Sam's uhm.... neck? Throat? (Suddenly feeling anxiety that I don't know an obscure medical term for it! :o ) Anyway, it ups the angst and the tension a *lot* when that happens *after* those dear and emotional words from Sam. The way I've interpreted it, is that this far in the scene (that would be after Sam grabbed him), Frodo *has* been fighting the Ring, of course, but so deep inside that he isn't consciously aware of what's happening or that he's even fighting it - his will and mind are still too tightly in the Ring's grip. But Sam's emotional words manage to get past the Ring's death grip on Frodo, and Frodo's conscious will really starts clawing its way to the surface to regain control. As that happens, and before his conscious will really manages to take hold, there's a tiny vacuum in the transition period from subconscious to conscious fight, and that's when the Ring sees its chance and makes him move the sword to kill..... (Shudder)
From tg
But does anyone have a theory about what's going on before the tumble, when Sam grabs the Ring and Frodo obviously reacts with pain From Kuduk
Personally, I’m still on the “relief” and “pain” side of the Osgiliath ring-offering emotional theory (although looking at that one “dead hobbit” Osgiliath still I do see tg’s point). I actually tried to explain this (relief, pain, anger, etc.) to my daughter when we watched the movie the other night, carefully avoiding any blatant sexual reference.The way I've seen this, is that just before Sam grabs him, Frodo's feeling immense relief and...... would it be possible to dub it "the extasy of surrender"? The pain, stress and tension of the constant tough defensive fight disappear, leaving his face slack in their wake as he gives in? I don't think that the Ring taking over is painful; - in fact I think it's probably the opposite, if nothing else because the constant pain of resisting the Ring is gone. And judging by previous scenes, the Ring may well induce quite ahem... pleasant feelings as it's taking over. Probably makes it even more tempting to give in, give up, let it go.

So *that's* why he's showing a flash of rage and pain when Sam grabs him and disturbs the Ring-trance, has been my thought: The Ring is making Frodo act according to the Ring's will, but it's also making Frodo himself resist and resent and even fear the possibility of going back to the fight and the pain and that long slow defeat.From Sheryl
I keep intending to see if I can pick out the pick-ups, but I haven't been able to disengage enough from the story yet!
So which scenes do we *know* are pick-ups? The Sam/Frodo Osgiliath fight is one. Seems to me that the "task is mine! My own! - Can't you hear who you sound like?" scene must be another. I know that one has been extensively covered in "making of" documentaries - at least the part where Andy Serkis dives into the icy stream - but did the Sam/Frodo part of it get filmed during pick-ups? Anyone with more recent watching of special features than me?From Mariole
I defy you to look anywhere else in this frame -- you just can't do it, can you? Nope, the vertical nature of the scm, bolstered by a particularly strong showing from the mandible, just anchors your attention on Frodo's delighted expression.
Yeah right. ;) What tg said. There's *nothing* else to look at in that picture whatsoever. Especially for a haremite like yourself, who surely never heard of or thought of or discussed the NOR. :D Nice try, though!!! From Mariole
Although it looks to me clearly posed, it does reveal something peculiar about our hero. He appears to have lines on his face, such as might be caused by extreme mental fatigue and perseverance beyond normal physical tolerance.
The lines on his face in that spoiler pic you posted are very noticable. Although I wish we could get a better quality pic. I've seen the opinion posted elsewhere that the lines just come from poor picture quality. I'd like for that to be disproved! (Maeg takes a small moment to swoon happily over that beautiful picture, the full version of it. Isn't it just unbelievably *right*!!! ) Uhm.... anyway, the lines are clearly noticable to me, and I am in full agreement with your most excellent research on the facial lines and their use in making Frodo thinner, careworn, exhausted and older-looking. Sheryl's makeup comments enlightened this further. :)

Of course I had to immediately check The Poster (That's the Frodo picture of all time, to me!) to see if the line is visible there. After all, that's right before Mt. Doom..... the makeup dept. must have had a field day! And yes, the line's visible, although barely. In fact, the area between the line and the mandibular flare (sp?)represents a clear triangle that I suppose is the one will be shaded. However, in that picture, with the lightning there, it's the paleness and the dirt and those sore red eyes that draw the attention. :(
From Sheryl:
"She gently kissed his helix, then she tongued his intertragic notch and breathed gently into his external acoustic meatus."
I salute and congratulate you, Sheryl. You've created and defined Faculty!Porn in a few sentences! :cool: Bring it on! :p(Although it will make the mods' lives miserable :rolleyes: )From Sheryl
That's one thing they agree on - one of them insists the bit of the nose dividing the nostrils is the "septum," while the other insists it's only the septum *inside*, while the external part of it is the "columella." And they disagree on the proper spelling of the technical name for the nostrils - one spells it "nares" and the other "naris." The one that prefers "naris" says the outside curve of the nose over the nostrils is the "ala"; the other one is silent on that issue. Mariole, I hope you're taking notes here! Wonderful opportunities for minute and richly illustrated research! I'm sure everyone here are looking forward to that just as much as me! :k

That is, if they're still more than semi-conscious after reading this loooong post, which luckily for everybody, now has come to an end!

Originally posted by Maeglian
So which scenes do we *know* are pick-ups? I'm pretty sure that the final sequence about "Samwise the Brave" was a pick-up. There have been a couple of instances where pick-ups were being discussed (one of them was in the "Making of a Hobbit" short on MTV last year) and that scene in the woods was shown being filmed. I think there's also a reference in one of the extras on TTT DVD, but I'd have to go digging to figure out where I saw it.

Sometimes it seems to me that The Wig is a giveaway. There are times when it just looks a bit different -- longer in the front, shorter in the back -- and I think of that as "the pick-up wig." ;) I might be hallucinating, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out I'm right.

The variations in the wig actually bother me a bit. Not so much from scene to scene, because you can usually justify it with, "Oh, he slept on it funny" or, "He must have washed/cut it" or something. But when it's different within the same scene it bugs me, even though I try to ignore it. :rolleyes: But what can ya do? :p

The connection between the philtrum and the word 'philtre'='love potion' is one of those little linguistic puzzles relished by linguistics geeks (such as JRRT ;)). Both words come from the Greek word philtron, which is formed from the verb phileo meaning 'to love' by adding the instrumental suffix tron. So 'philtron' is something by which love acts, e.g., a love potion or... the grip of the Cupid's bow. Do we happen to know an actor with a cupid's bow mouth? :p

This is quick--but I must say The Faculty is as nice as it is interesting. And of course as intelligent as you all so modestly deny it is. Ah, you all know your worth--though I am still waiting for you all to resolve what the correct spelling of filtrum/philtrum is (which is funny to me because it was one of the first words my daughter learned--I blame my husband for that). However, this system may have an intelligence flaw as my last post was my second post, and it still claims it was my first. Hey!! what gives? (though I wonder if it will re-count once I post this one). (I want credit for stepping out into public, and for doing it more than once).

Thank you Shilohmm and Kukuk for the references to Winters remarks, I will gladly follow up and read those.

Ainon--are you asking if I like angst and heart-clenching scenarios? Is that what you are asking?? Well.....how did you know? Oh, yes.
Hobbits in heart-wrenching/heart-clenching scenarios? Oh, yes, some more. Please.

I know what you mean, Carleenya, about theater acting. It can be rather unsubtle. Do you think it might ruin Elijah's finer instincts? That would be tragic. I hadn't really thought of it before Shilohmm asked me. But now that I do, I kind of think he would do quite well. When finding the right level of gesture, he would be able to convey a lot of personality into the distance of theater. His face would be very visible, I think. I don't think he would have to act too broadly to convey a scene. He obviously has a lot of control--he could just notch the energy and movement up a bit for stage, and focus the intensity....yeah...I'll bet he would do quite well after finding the appropriate level. I'm more of a film fan, but now I'm getting interested.

TG---I definately will check out your site--thank you for inviting me. I am not as saavy with internet travel, posting etc as most of you, but I am finding this all facinating (I still haven't figured out the basics of underlining text, etc.). The Faculty was truly a remarkable place to find after dipping into a forum here and a forum there on other sites. Not to put anyone else down--but this is quite refreshing and entertaining and educational. And funny. I love the funny.

Also, the pictures. I forgot to mention the pictures....love the pictures. Thanks one and all for the pictures.

Thanks again for encouraging me to post. You have made me feel quite welcome. And the daughter in question will post. I'm just often on while she is at school. But soon....she has some interesting things to say.

Originally posted by Maeglian
But Sam's emotional words manage to get past the Ring's death grip on Frodo, and Frodo's conscious will really starts clawing its way to the surface to regain control. As that happens, and before his conscious will really manages to take hold, there's a tiny vacuum in the transition period from subconscious to conscious fight, and that's when the Ring sees its chance and makes him move the sword to kill..... (Shudder)


*drool*

That is awesome. And oh so angsty.:D I love it.

Alyon: occasionally the site will mess up and not count a post, but your last one was counted so I think you're okay now.:) Also, you can find out far more about fancy posting tricks than you'll ever need to know, right here. (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/misc.php?action=bbcode#buttons)

Sheryl, Faculty porn?:eek: I'm disappointed in you.;) :p [/mod mode] - ROTFL!:D

Alyon, I'm clapping with delight! You're one of The Faculty now, can't you just feel it?! I am still waiting for you all to resolve what the correct spelling of filtrum/philtrum is (which is funny to me because it was one of the first words my daughter learned--I blame my husband for that).Now, this is not something you hear just everyday - is your husband a physician, by any chance- or just a bloomin' genius? :D The first word my daughter said was "More!" as my husband was shoveling food into her mouth as fast as the spoon would go!

Funny about you not feeling "internet savvy" yet. Everything I learned about the internet - and I mean everything, I learned from the wonderful posters at the original Faculty home of Imladris (which later became Council of Elrond, from which we moved here to KD...oh, never mind!) Anyway, I learned to surf sites, how to post pictures, even something about "chat etiquette" from all these great gals. (And the occasional visiting gentleman Orc) I knew absolutely nothing and while I still have oodles to learn, I gab away now like an old pro. :rolleyes: You can ask these people anything and they or the Mods will lead the way holding your hand. I hadn't the slightest idea what a discussion board was, and when I first began prattling on about how much fun it was, my friends were warning me about "dangerous chat rooms". Took me awhile to even figure out the difference between what they were talking about and this lovely place! Now I have even met a bunch of KD posters, and they are absolutely the most caring, fun bunch of intelligent adults you could ever hope to run across. Lucky, lucky, lucky the day I just had to find a place to talk about the first Movie or bust! You will enjoy it, too, I'm sure! :) psssttt...I'm told the Mods are one of the major reasons this site is so much superior to the type of person and post you will find in some other places. But don't tell them I said so - we can't have our Mods getting big(ger) heads! :D I still have to laugh at myself when I had to call my daughter in to ask what ROTFLMAO meant. Most of the others I figured out by the way they were used, but on occasion, I still ask. After all, I am not from the internet age, myself! But I'm grabbing on with both hands now, all thanks to PJ and his glorious crew!

BTW, I have also learned some fabulously campy British slang on these boards, and you better believe I have to ask about those sometimes, too! :eek:

I agree with BunnyBugs about the wig. I dislike seeing the difference when least expected - it kinda pulls me out of the scene for a second. But only because when the wig is just perfect, so is Frolijah.

tgshaw, as always, I agree so much with your The way Elijah shows emotions--and not just at Osgiliath--is one of the things that convinces me a lot of it comes from being able to connect somehow directly with the character. So often in one shot there are so many emotions combined that I can't separate them all--just as would happen in those situations in "real life." I'd imagine a lot of actors could think, "Okay, now, I'm going to look angry," and be able to do it. But how do you "plan" to look determined with a touch of pride and a bit of coolness, while making it clear that you're in pain because the other person doesn't understand--but, then, neither do you, exactly--and you also have to include uncertainty that you're trying to cover up with that determination, mistrust that needs to look like trust while the audience knows it really isn't, profound physical and mental fatigue that you're fighting against, fear that you're making a horrible mistake but a sinking feeling that it's unavoidable, and--always somewhere in your mind at every moment--"if only Gandalf were here" and that constant, subtle pull of the Ring?And how glorious the opportunity for a soul of Elijah's depth to be able to live in that character for so long - and that the character is so multi-layered and so well known that he really had something to "sink his teeth into". What other characters can you think of that would offer such opportunity? There must be a few, but they don't come right to mind. Poor Elijah (and the others, too!) will have to deal with much more single dimensional characters in their future roles. :(

estella rose,

I keep forgetting to ask - you don't get to see ROTK until considerably after the rest of us, but did you get the DVD on schedule with the rest of the world?

something Rikka posted that maybe got lost a bit in the 4000 celebration

And Try 17 is not so easy as it seems to be at a first sight – with its derisive intellectual games with reality and imagination that change places, interlace, sprout through and mirror in each other…

Anyone else game for a comparison of the treatment of reality in Try 17 versus that in Chain of Fools? Not quite sure where I'm going with it, definitely need to see both movies again first, but Rikka's description here made me think of CoF as well, and in both cases EW's character has, er, an active fantasy life. :p Guess I'll let it percolate through a while. Rikka's comments on the humor of Try 17 would provide a basis for comparison of the two movies in that area as well…

originally posted by Bridget Chubb
Or dwarves, maybe. That'd be a bit more plausible.

Yes, quite plausible I think, which is why it's not half so amusing. :p Besides, someone at Imly was convinced Staplesnout went to Eton, and provided considerable evidence as I recall, so we know there is such a thing as an educated orc - he just got the school wrong. ;) And "Elijah's Educated Orcs" has pizzazz and a certain liveliness, while "Elijah's Educated Dwarves" just kind of… lacks energy, don't you think? :D

Originally posted by tgshaw

Sheryl--Yes, dear, I'm afraid you're hallucinating.

Ah. Well, that explains a lot about my daily life lately, now, doesn't it? :p

Originally posted by tgshaw

It's kinda flattering when we get posts talking about our intelligence, but it also gives me the feeling that we're pulling off one of the greatest scams of all time

Yeah, the Faculty excells at baffling them with... well, you know. ;)

Got TTT going - I love it at the Black Gate, when Smagol says, "master says to show him the way into Mordor, so good Smeagol does as master says so," and Frodo says, "I did" - and it is so clear that Frodo is wondering, "What in the world was I thinking when I said that?" :D

originally posted by Maeglian
I don't think that the Ring taking over is painful; - in fact I think it's probably the opposite, if nothing else because the constant pain of resisting the Ring is gone. And judging by previous scenes, the Ring may well induce quite ahem... pleasant feelings as it's taking over. Probably makes it even more tempting to give in, give up, let it go.

I think the entire Osgiliath sequence creates more disagreement than any other section we've analyzed. :p Not saying it's a negative thing, but our interpretations (and those I've seen elsewhere) are all over the map. I wonder if there's anything on the Extended DVD that'll "tighten the focus" on the possible valid interpretations of that scene.

I think when the Ringbearer *doesn't fight* the Ring taking over it's pleasant - I'm also convinced that the first time Frodo really fights the Ring, really recongizes it as evil, is Weathertop. It's the scenes prior to that where giving in to the Ring seems pleasant. Since then I've always seen a bit of fear or pain or anger in his face when the Ring is in charge. I think some of his anger in the "Mine! My own!" scene is just a manifestation of the anger fighting the Ring creates - he's angry and frustrated over the constant battle, and Sam gets the brunt of it. I don't think it's always a strong feeling of pain or anger - I think often he's fighting on a subliminal level, and it's more of a low-level stress than a conscious awareness of feelings of pain or anger.

Like a constant, low level headache, which really gets to you over time, but isn't stabbing pain. Or like allergies that creep up on you, where you feel steadily worse but you aren't consciously aware of it so you don't take any drugs for it until you get caught in a sneezing fit. :p

Even in Osgiliath, as he's moving toward the stairs up until Sam tackles him I see some pain and (particularly) fear - not strongly, but I think that's because the Ring is in primary control. I think there he's like someone with a one of those low-level grinding headache whos is asleep - you can see they're in pain, their face isn't as relaxed and peaceful as it should be for a person deep asleep, but at the same time the pain isn't extreme enough to keep them awake, either.


originally posted by Maeglian

Sam's emotional words manage to get past the Ring's death grip on Frodo, and Frodo's conscious will really starts clawing its way to the surface to regain control. As that happens, and before his conscious will really manages to take hold, there's a tiny vacuum in the transition period from subconscious to conscious fight, and that's when the Ring sees its chance and makes him move the sword to kill..... (Shudder)

I think Frodo and the Ring are fighting for control all through here, but OTOH I don't know how much of it I think is conscious - I guess I would agree that Sam's words help Frodo to focus his conscous will against the Ring in a way it wasn't there before. I see that last press of the sword to Sam's throat as the Ring's last desperate attempt to regain complete control over Frodo, rather than as the "transition point" between subconscious to conscious fight.

I think what's hardest on Frodo *is* the fact that much of his fighting against the Ring is unconscious.


ROTK spoilers
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I also think that part of Frodo's problem after getting back home is wondering how much the Ring *did* control, and how much was him. I don't think it was just the events at Mount Doom that haunted him - I think he fretted over the whole period he had the Ring, wondering how much of what he did "wrong" was the Ring influencing him and how much was his own weakness - and he probably gave the Ring far less power in his mind than it had in reality. And part of the pain of being the Ringbearer was that same issue - he'd catch himself doing things out of character or that he believed to be wrong (losing his temper with Sam), and then wonder if he was just weak and couldn't handle the stress of the trip or if it was the Ring influencing him.

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End spoiler speech



Aragorn does his, "All my choices have been ill" kind of thing in the Breaking of the Fellowship - but whenever one of Frodo's choices seems to go wrong, Frodo has the added concern of, "Did I decide that because it's what the Ring wanted, or because it's what I should do?" Frodo shows extraordinary resilience to the Ring while wearing it merely by *not* collapsing or freezing up under that added, "What do I do/did I choose or did the Ring?" kind of agonizing.

I think in the "Mine! My own!" scene, it's hard for Frodo and for the viewer to know how much of what he says is Ring influenced, because probably most of what he says is true - he does have a strong need to see Smeagol as redeemable, for his own sake. And he does need to hang on to the idea that "he was meant to have the Ring," because there is a sense where that knowledge is the only thing enabling him to go on with any confidence at all! The problem is that the Ring can work with that knowledge and turn it against him. Frodo doesn't know, Sam doesn't know, and the viewer doesn't know precisely where the line between "Frodo" and "Ring influence" lies.

Part of the agony of bearing the Ring is not knowing where self ends and the Ring begins, and the longer he carries the Ring the harder it is to draw that line.

originally posted by Alyon
He obviously has a lot of control--he could just notch the energy and movement up a bit for stage, and focus the intensity....yeah...I'll bet he would do quite well after finding the appropriate level.

Your comment earlier about EW's normal energy and someone else's a while back on their sister doing better with roles close to her own personality got me to thinking of something I've considered before - the fact that EW doesn't claim a lot of angst in his real life, and is a very energetic person, but most of the roles that've really knocked us out he's playing a very angsty person who is not terribly twitchy. ;) I wouldn't go so far as to say he plays best those character he is like the least, but it is interesting. I do think actors do best with characters that deeply interest them, for whatever reason.

But then, we all do best with what deeply interests us, I suppose. :)

Sheryl

RL has kept me too busy (again :rolleyes: ) to actually join in recently, though I have managed (barely ;) ) to keep up with the lively and interesting discussions, which have been particularly invigorating the last few days. :)

There is so much I would like to comment on, but I only have time to mention one thing. I know a lot of people see the apparent relief on Frodo's face as the ring approaches his finger as 'pleasant', but to me it has always had a very different connotation. As Sheryl noted, I too have always seen much pain and fear on his face as he is drawn towards the Nazgul, and it is so apparent to me that he is fighting the ring's call, and resisting the command to put it on.

What I see in his face as his eyes start to close and the ring approaches his finger is not 'pleasant' relief, but the incredibly painful relief someone feels when something they fear and have been resisting is about to happen or come true. It's not that they WANT it to happen - it's that they no longer have to anticipate or worry about it; the uncertainty about it has been removed. So while they do not welcome it, and are far from glad (indeed, may be deeply grieved), the relief is for the end of the waiting; the end of the uncertainty; the end of the fight to make it NOT happen.

I don't know if I'm explaining this clearly at all. It's like a parent whose son or daughter has gone missing - and they wait through the long days, anticipating the doorbell, imagining scenarios in their head, worrying that the worst has happened, telling themselves everything will be OK, but with that dread in the pit of the stomach. When the doorbell rings, and the policeman is standing at the door with that look on his face - that is the moment when they close their eyes, just as Frodo does in this scene - slowly, painfully, overwhelmed by the dawning knowledge of a grief that is yet to fully come - and yet at some level relieved to finally know, even while resisting the reality of it. Or when someone who has had worrying symptoms for months, and gone through numerous test, and all the ups and downs of the uncertainty and worrying, is finally told - yes, you do have cancer. It's the worst possible news, but the uncertainty is over. THAT is the relief I see on Frodo's face - not accepting, not liking the outcome, filled with pain and fear, and yet relieved to finally know what the outcome of his long resistance of the ring will be, even though it is the worst possible outcome.

There are physical changes that I expect to see in 'pleasant' relief - a slight uplift in the muscles of the mouth or eyes, increased openness in the face. I see EW taking Frodo to a different place here - 'painful' relief, where instead the face closes in, the mouth and eyes seem to deflate and draw inwards.

I have no clue whether this will make sense to anyone else, but it's certainly the way I've always seen those few moments when the ring is approaching his finger.


Oh, and Sheryl, I think "Elijah's Educated Dwarves" is so fraught with interesting possibilities that I'm either going to have to write a treatise on it or leave it completely alone. :D :p

:confused:

Has anyone heard of EWood1981?


Is this an aol email address? If not, what is the rest of this address?

:confused:


Thanks so much.:D

Originally posted by shilohmm
Got TTT going - I love it at the Black Gate, when Smagol says, "master says to show him the way into Mordor, so good Smeagol does as master says so," and Frodo says, "I did" - and it is so clear that Frodo is wondering, "What in the world was I thinking when I said that?" :D

That's one of my favorite parts. Each time I see the movie I wish the editor had not pulled away from his face so soon after that.

Originally posted by shilohmm
Even in Osgiliath, as he's moving toward the stairs up until Sam tackles him I see some pain and (particularly) fear - not strongly, but I think that's because the Ring is in primary control. I think there he's like someone with a one of those low-level grinding headache whos is asleep - you can see they're in pain, their face isn't as relaxed and peaceful as it should be for a person deep asleep

Yes, with added exhaustion and a certain amount of despair and inevitability.

Originally posted by shilohmm
he probably gave the Ring far less power in his mind than it had in reality.
Part of the agony of bearing the Ring is not knowing where self ends and the Ring begins, and the longer he carries the Ring the harder it is to draw that line.

Underlying his personality is an extraordinary of amount of self-responsibility and, later, self-recrimination.

Originally posted by shilohmm
Your comment earlier about EW's normal energy and someone else's a while back on their sister doing better with roles close to her own personality got me to thinking of something I've considered before - the fact that EW doesn't claim a lot of angst in his real life, and is a very energetic person, but most of the roles that've really knocked us out he's playing a very angsty person who is not terribly twitchy. ;) I wouldn't go so far as to say he plays best those character he is like the least, but it is interesting. I do think actors do best with characters that deeply interest them, for whatever reason.
[/B]

The amount of physical control that Elijah has over his own body and face fascinates me. His mom enrolled him in modeling school (at, what, 7 years old?) to channel his enormous energy. If they gave him the foundation for his control, they should be doing lots of business. ;) Well, I suppose there is a certain amount of talent and hard work and experience involved. :)

(quote from Narya):
What I see in his face as his eyes start to close and the ring approaches his finger is not 'pleasant' relief, but the incredibly painful relief someone feels when something they fear and have been resisting is about to happen or come true. (end quote)

I totally agree. The cheeks and jaws are slack but the pain and fear still show between the eyebrows.
Maybe it's simplistic but I think, along with the exhaustion, fear, pain, self-doubt and control of the Ring there is an element of letting go.

[NotWorthy smilies] for Sheryl's and Carly's comments (And on Kuduk's simulposted additions :) ) on Osgiliath, and on Frodo's constant fight with the Ring. IMHO, that would have been harder to deal with than the "acute" episodes--although if Sam hadn't been there, those would have been fatal.

Sheryl, regarding the pre-Weathertop Ring incidents: When the hobbits are hiding from the Ringwraith in the Shire, I do think Frodo is resisting putting on the Ring. He hasn't experienced that temptation before, and at first I don't think he knows what's going on, so we may get a bit of that "pleasant" sensation. But then he seems to realize, and does fight it. One of his "What the *** was that?" moments with the Ring IMHO--After the hobbits make a break for it and Merry asks, "What was that?" I assume he's referring to the Nazgul, but Frodo's looking at the Ring, and probably asking the same question. (I've always kind of liked that little juxtaposition.)

I don't know quite what to say about the one at Bree. In both the book and the movie, in order for that incident to happen Pippin has to say something stupid and Frodo has to do something stupid--neither of which are beyond the realm of possibility :p . If there's any time when we don't see Frodo fighting against the Ring in the movie, I think it would be then. Since he hasn't had much experience with it yet, it'd be easy for him to think, "Gandalf said not to put it on, but I'm not putting it on. It's okay to just sit here and play with it," (especially if playing with it is pleasant in some way). Of course, as in the book, all the Ring needed was an opportunity... but he doesn't understand that at this point.

Something else I've been noticing about a lot of the Ring incidents--and Eye incidents--is that Frodo is deathly pale immediately afterward. Have to give the make-up people kudos for how well they do "deathly pale"--have you watched the blood slowly drain out of Boromir's face as he dies :eek: ?

Anyway, this is definitely true for Frodo when hiding under the tree roots (when Sam pulls him up), the "heart attack" at the beginning of TTT, after the Nazgul flyover, and the aftermath at Osgiliath. I'm not sure about some others, but lighting may be a factor in making those harder to see--Bree, Gimli's ax-whack at the Council, Galadriel's mirror, Faramir's swordplay. After Weathertop, of course, he has a reason to look "deathly" anything, and Amon Hen gets a bit complicated because that's the one time he makes a conscious decision to put on the Ring rather than being tempted by it. But in the ones where we do see him so pale afterward, it really shows what he's been through. And I can't help but think that when we first see Frodo and Sam "climbing around on rocks" as the Two Towers logo comes onscreen, Frodo must have recently been through a power struggle with the Ring--he looks so much tireder than Sam, which isn't usually true, and is quite pale.

------------

[i]from Sheryl
I think some of his anger in the "Mine! My own!" scene is just a manifestation of the anger fighting the Ring creates - he's angry and frustrated over the constant battle, and Sam gets the brunt of it. I don't think it's always a strong feeling of pain or anger - I think often he's fighting on a subliminal level, and it's more of a low-level stress than a conscious awareness of feelings of pain or anger.
I'd agree with this--some Ring effect, especially in the "Mine! My own!" line, but other things going on, too. And Sam doesn't help any. (Not to knock Sam, specifically. If anyone in this story were perfect, there wouldn't be a story.)

In pre-TTT interviews, Elijah talked so much about Frodo wanting to save Gollum so he knows he can be saved, that I expected it to be talked about overtly, but it isn't. If I hadn't read those interviews, I'm not sure I would have gotten the full impact of Sam's, "You can't save him," which causes Frodo's first outburst. Sam doesn't realize that, in Frodo's mind, he's just said that Frodo can't be saved; possibly the only person Frodo's been counting on for support has just said there's no hope for him (but I believe Frodo when he says, "I don't know why I said that," because it's not necessarily conscious).

And if I'd been in Frodo's position (I almost said "in Frodo's shoes" :D ), I probably would have whacked Sam up the side of his head at "You've got to fight it." --- "What the bloody *#&%($ do you think I've been doing all this time?!"

Anyway, there are some expressions Frodo gets during that scene that indicate there's Ring influence going on, because they're not "natural" hobbit ones--such as wrinkling up his nose before he turns on Sam the first time--but IMHO there's also a lot of normal human/hobbit reaction to constant stress, fear, and uncertainty.

[b]I see that last press of the sword to Sam's throat as the Ring's last desperate attempt to regain complete control over Frodo...
I've been going over the screencaps of Frodo's attack on Sam quite a bit, trying to get some sense of what's happening. I'm not sure how much I'm understanding, but there's one thing I found interesting. At the very beginning, when Frodo's first moving in, he's moving in for the kill--watching the sword position from frame to frame, the path it was following would not have ended with the sword being held at Sam's throat. And it's coming down fast. Something of Frodo had to step in there and block the Ring--and he had to do it fast. The entire time must have been one horrific battle without even a momentary break--a battle taking place, of course, inside him. No wonder he says, "I can't do this," afterward!

---------

At this point, I have to make an observation that (IMVVHO) is all at once amusing, touching, amazing, and strange: It's another realization of how much we treat these movies in the same way we treat the book; as I've said before, it says a lot for these movies (despite their flaws) that this is even possible.

It's just amazing that we can analyze scenes the way we've been doing--down to what's happening inside a character at any particular moment, and why it's happening. And if Elijah would say tomorrow, "Oh, no, that's not what I was trying to show at all," it probably wouldn't make any difference! Remember when Ian McK said that Gandalf's expression when Frodo volunteers at the Council is one of pure pride and love? A lot of viewers (including me :p ) said, "Oh, no, it isn't! There's obviously some pain and sorrow there!" Hey, we know what we see, right :p ? For some things in the movies--as in the book--I don't really want to have a clear-cut answer, because speculating and analyzing is too much fun. :) It's one way I see the movies having "the spirit of the book."

-------------


Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
:confused:

Has anyone heard of EWood1981?


Is this an aol email address? If not, what is the rest of this address?

I don't know what the "EWood1981" you've run into is specifically used for, but E. Wood was born in 1981, so I assume it's connected to that. Actually, that would be such a well-known combination to EJW fans that it could be part of a number of email addresses. If it's, say, part of a URL, typing it into a search engine exactly as listed may come up with the rest of the address. But, again, it may come up with quite a few of them. It would be anything but esoteric knowledge among Elijah Wood fans, and they could be using it for a lot of different things.

Maybe someone else has heard of something specific using that label?

By Narya:


What I see in his face as his eyes start to close and the ring approaches his finger is not 'pleasant' relief, but the incredibly painful relief someone feels when something they fear and have been resisting is about to happen or come true. It's not that they WANT it to happen - it's that they no longer have to anticipate or worry about it; the uncertainty about it has been removed. So while they do not welcome it, and are far from glad (indeed, may be deeply grieved), the relief is for the end of the waiting; the end of the uncertainty; the end of the fight to make it NOT happen.

THAT is the relief I see on Frodo's face - not accepting, not liking the outcome, filled with pain and fear, and yet relieved to finally know what the outcome of his long resistance of the ring will be, even though it is the worst possible outcome.





Narya, I agree completely with you! I've had to repeat the whole part because I want to confirm every single word of your wonderfully expressed description. Yes, I too see on Frodo's face the long desired certainty, the longing and yearning for relief. It's a "so be it" - whatever it is...

But even "pleasant" relief can look quite similar...
The Osgiliath close-up always reminded me of a certain work of art and finally I've remembered - tried to find a frontal picture of Holy Theresa, but this was the best I could find.


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/rotate-match.jpg http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/sttheresa-bernini-3.jpg


The baroque sculpture of Bernini is called "The Ecstasy of the Saint Theresa". The saint awaits the pain of being pierced by an angel's arrow (a symbol of God's love hitting the center of the heart). Now, I wouldn't call Frodo's Osgiliath expression "ecstasy", but there are a few facial similarities. As you, kuduk, already figured out are Frodo's cheeks and jaws relaxed, but his forehead is still strained. The saints forehead is smooth. She also knows that the following moment will be full of pain and perhaps despair but she gives in for the Good.- Somehow means Frodo's expression to me a mixture of painful certainty, a breathless moment of anticipation and deadening caused by the influence of the ring.

Whiteling--I suspect that Tgshaw will have something to say about your astute comparison! I'll only remark that Bernini's St. Therese is discalced (as the full image (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/b/bernini/gianlore/sculptur/1640/therese1.html) shows) and refer to the theologically flavoured discussion in another thread started by this post by Tgshaw (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=162362#post162362).

Wow, what fabulous discussion! Thank you! :) (This is an appreciative yet "not worthy" smilie.)

Narya, you're breaking my heart. Wow. I guess I said that already, but still. Yes, all this discussion is ripping my little heart in two. Poor Frodo! Wonderful EW and PJ, to put all this emotion into a movie!

Just to add that I never liked the "It's mine, my own," conversation. It seemed too heavy-handed. I think PJ does better when he sticks closer to Tolkien's own words, because I kind of twitch when I try to figure out what he's trying to get across with some of his made-up actions and dialogue. Although I think tg's analysis of that scene sounds like a fine interpretation. I'm just a Purist at heart; I want the real words, and the real scenes!

Whiteling, what a neat statue -- and Brunhild's link! :eek: I'm sure you all read the text beside it. Erotic, indeed. Who was saying that Frodo never looked lovelier than when he was surrending to the pull of the Nazgul/Ring at Osgiliath? Well, whatever board it was on, there definitely seems to be an element present -- no matter how "saintly" the subject! :D

Just dazzled by all this good thought-provoking stuff. Will reread when I'm not supposed to be working!

Edited per Sheryl's post:
I looked at that link to the "digital makeup" for that actress. OME! :eek: Boy, even I'd look good with all that help! :p

Spoilerish comment about Boromir dying -- skip this if you want to preserve the magic:
It wasn't make-up that made him pale. On one of the specials they showed how they selectively highlighted his face and lightened it digitally to make him look dead. They also selectively lightened Aragorn's eyes in that scene, so you could see his expression better vs the back-lighting. Really cool stuff!

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
So while they do not welcome it, and are far from glad (indeed, may be deeply grieved), the relief is for the end of the waiting; the end of the uncertainty; the end of the fight to make it NOT happen.


Exactly. Beautifully put, excellent illustrations. What she said. :D

originally posted by tgshaw
If there's any time when we don't see Frodo fighting against the Ring in the movie, I think it would be then. Since he hasn't had much experience with it yet, it'd be easy for him to think, "Gandalf said not to put it on, but I'm not putting it on. It's okay to just sit here and play with it," (especially if playing with it is pleasant in some way).

Well, if I may make use of all the sexual imagery flying around, I think it's the difference between seduction and rape. Before Weathertop, Frodo resists, but there's a part of him that toys with the idea of submitting and thinks the pleasure of submitting might be worth it. Since the Ring has that "in", it makes use of it - tempting Frodo with some form of pleasure. But after Weathertop, the Ring doesn't have that option the way it did - Frodo isn't going to buy that illusion easily, so the Ring mostly switches over to force or some other form of manipulation without seduction.

Not entirely - there's still the Ring petting scene - but particularly when the Ring wants Frodo to do something Frodo doesn't want to do, the Rings "seductive" qualities aren't going to get it very far; the Ring is trying to regain that aspect, but at this point it can only make use of it when Frodo's not under pressure and Frodo's guard is almost completely down. If Frodo is resisting the Ring, he's very armoured against seduction. He knows giving in would be the end to his pain, but he does not truly believe or seriously consider the idea that it would be a better choice than fighting.

In Bree when he's toying with the Ring, he's giving in to the experience. There's no torment to it. My eldest says he looks, "Relieved." But when he's petting the Ring in the marshes, she says he looks tortured - and I agree. There's torment to any pull the Ring has on him at that point, and the pleasure is more memory than reality somehow. His self-hatred for the hold the Ring has on him is the predominant feeling.

originally posted by tgshaw
Something else I've been noticing about a lot of the Ring incidents--and Eye incidents--is that Frodo is deathly pale immediately afterward. Have to give the make-up people kudos for how well they do "deathly pale"--have you watched the blood slowly drain out of Boromir's face as he dies?


:cool: I'd noticed it, but not every time you mention it, and not on a particularly conscious level.

I hope the Extended TTT will have more on the make-up, but I suspect a lot of what we'd like to hear isn't "spectacular" enough - bits on make-up people tend to be on stuff like major appliances rather than on all the much more subtle things they do. If we get anything like that with ROTK it'd probably be on how they made the cut on his neck (I'm assuming everyone has seen the publicity poster!), rather than how they made his face look older and more stressed.

Bet money we won't see discussions on stuff like how they made Arwen look so lovely as Elrond's giving his "Give up on that boy!" speech, but I suspect it would look a bit fuzzed if I paid attention. :p Here's an example (this is done digitally, but it's the same effect as they used to do with vaseline on the lens):

http://www.internetcampus.com/makeup.htm

If that doesn't take you to the right point on the page, scan down a tiny bit to the side-by-side photos of the lady.

Sheryl

edit:

originally posted by Mariole
I kind of twitch when I try to figure out what he's trying to get across with some of his made-up actions and dialogue.

LOL! Yeah, all the stuff that made the least sense to me in TTT does seem to be PJ additions. I think the "Mine! My own!" scene is brutally obvious compared to JRRT's words, but OTOH I think it works pretty well cinematically. One of the reasons movies tend to highten the emotional power of some scenes is that it's easier to get the point across that way - particularly when you're working with something as large and complex as LOTR, you just don't have the time to make some points more subtly. I think the "Mine! My own!" scene does convey a lot efficiently, but I also suspect most first-time viewers will miss much of it.

After tgshaw's comments I wonder if I would have caught some of the undercurrents of that scene without having read or heard some EW interviews. I know my understanding of the scene hasn't changed much with subsequent viewings, so the undercurrents were clear to me from the first, but I can't remember whether I saw the interviews before or after I saw the movie the first time. :p

Sheryl

edit:

I keep forgetting - we can't be Dwarves, Bridget. None of us have beards. :p

Sheryl

Originally posted by Brunhild
Whiteling--I suspect that Tgshaw will have something to say about your astute comparison! I'll only remark that Bernini's St. Therese is discalced (as the full image (http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/b/bernini/gianlore/sculptur/1640/therese1.html) shows) and refer to the theologically flavoured discussion in another thread started by this post by Tgshaw (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=162362#post162362).

I got beat to the punch on that one. Whiteling posted that head shot just before I left for work--I was late already (per usual) and worked very hard telling myself "No, just go to work. You already have it up on Imagemagician, so you can link to it from there." When I got to work, of course, there wasn't any time. The version I have is pretty much the same as Brunhild's, so I won't bother now... but if the topic ever comes up again :) .

BTW--If this was the part of the post being referred to:
...The OCD's and the O. Carm.'s have a long-standing dispute over which group St. Therese was part of, and it's fun to check out statues of her to see if the person who made it gave her shoes or not ... But, I don't see how anyone could dispute Frodo being discalced.
...a little clarification. I was talking there about St. Therese (French--sorry, don't know how to make those little marks over the e's, and that was probably confusing :o ). Bernini's statue, of course, is of St. Teresa (Spanish)--there's not much argument about her, since she started out as an O.Carm., and then founded the OCD's. And, yes, the incident with the angel's arrow was after she became discalced (but I imagine even the O.Carm.'s occasionally pray with their shoes off ;) ).

...BTW, if you haven't checked out the angel's face... do! The little guy certainly seems to enjoy his job. :p

This is still a quick post from work... will have to come back later to comment on scenes, etc.

So many great posts in a great discussion that I haven't time to respond to them all.

But I had to post these.
I think I stumbled over what could be a fantastic role for Elijah... if anyone ever decides to film an epic like this.

Look at these pics of Alexander the Great.
http://www.sangha.net/oleg/photos/New/Nov08_40.jpg

His nose is off in this one but....
http://sangha.net/messengers/alex-profile3.jpg

http://www.beazley.ox.ac.uk/CGPrograms/Dict/image/alexander.jpg

Considering that Alexander only lived to be 31 and did just about everything imaginable from being a tortured youth (by Aristotle, no less!)to world conquerer, cruel tyrant to his enemies yet benevolent to the peoples of the conquered lands, much court intrigue, dies tragically young...etc. etc....

What do you think? It would give Elijah more range than he's ever had to play apart from Frodo. I'd go to see it, that's for sure!

What do you think? It would give Elijah more range than he's ever had to play apart from Frodo. I'd go to see it, that's for sure!Hobmom, you would go see Frodo if he was playing a dancing tomato, and you know it! So would I, for that matter. :cool:

Nice pics. Hmm, Alexander the Great, huh? An interesting character, to be sure, but again - do enough people know enough about him to offer the layers of personality that Frodo has? I don't think so. But I can't think who does!

Keep trying. There must be someone out there for Elijah to portray that everyone feels like they "know". Hamlet is the only role that comes to mind for me, but there must be more! I swear, my head has been so buried in Middle Earth for so long now that I can't remember any other literature that has made a major impression on the public! (Don't even think about saying Harry Potter.)

I think he would do an incredible job with the role of Jesus, but not until he's older. Too young for that just now. Give him time. But in a well-done script of the life of Jesus, he would be able to move us all deeply, I'm sure of it. Talk about angst and ecstasy - in spades, boy! :) And it is quite believable that one could awaken to the love of God in those eyes!

Of course, it's also possible that in a beautifully-crafted script, he could pull off an awesome Lucifer, too. If the Harem wrote it, it would guarantee a smash hit at the box office! :D

Hobmom, you would go see Frodo if he was playing a dancing tomato, and you know it! So would I, for that matter.

LOL! Well..maybe. And only if his head sticks out of the tomato costume.

I looked up on IMDB about movie versions in the works on Alexander and YUP a huge thing is being done...BUT....Do they pick the right actor? .... NOOOO! They picked Leonardo DiCaprio! I don't think he looks one bit like Alexander. He's pretty good but I don't think he has the range Elijah is capable of.

I've often thought Elijah would be a wonderful Jesus but he will have to wait just a few more years to do that. There hasn't been a really excellent version since the late '70s when they did "Jesus of Nazareth" with William Powell(the British actor) in the lead. Very good production. But it would be nice if somebody gave it a quality redoing.

I still think Elijah should do Romeo before he gets too old for it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgshaw
One of his "What the *** was that?" moments with the Ring IMHO--After the hobbits make a break for it and Merry asks, "What was that?" I assume he's referring to the Nazgul, but Frodo's looking at the Ring, and probably asking the same question. (I've always kind of liked that little juxtaposition.)
[QUOTE]

Thanks! I never understood that look of his (at the ring) before, though it seems obvious now.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgshaw
And if I'd been in Frodo's position, I probably would have whacked Sam up the side of his head at "You've got to fight it." --- "What the bloody *#&%($ do you think I've been doing all this time?!"
[QUOTE]

Yes! Ok, here I differ from most of the opinions I’ve seen here and maybe (kuduk reiterates, sorry) it’s partly since I saw the movie before I read the book, although having a Tolkien purist complain during and after the movie colored my reactions somewhat.
To digress further, I read with interest the (sorry don't remember which Fac member) mention that Tolkien virgins' reactions of not liking or getting parts of the movie were mostly parts that were changed from JRRT. That would be an interesting research project.
Back to the scene: I didn’t understand people being upset about Frodo’s reaction to and anger at Sam. I thought, given the circumstances, it was pretty mild and he apologizes right away. I especially like the “what do you know about it, nothing”. Fewer truer words have ever been spoken. That is followed by Sam’s “you’ve got to fight it” and I agree with tg’s take on that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgshaw
Anyway, there are some expressions Frodo gets during that scene that indicate there's Ring influence going on, because they're not "natural" hobbit ones--such as wrinkling up his nose before he turns on Sam the first time--but IMHO there's also a lot of normal human/hobbit reaction to constant stress, fear, and uncertainty.
[QUOTE]

Ditto.


[QUOTE]Originally posted by tgshaw
At this point, I have to make an observation that (IMVVHO) is all at once amusing, touching, amazing, and strange: It's another realization of how much we treat these movies in the same way we treat the book; as I've said before, it says a lot for these movies (despite their flaws) that this is even possible.
It's just amazing that we can analyze scenes the way we've been doing--down to what's happening inside a character at any particular moment, and why it's happening. And if Elijah would say tomorrow, "Oh, no, that's not what I was trying to show at all," it probably wouldn't make any difference! Remember when Ian McK said that Gandalf's expression when Frodo volunteers at the Council is one of pure pride and love? A lot of viewers (including me :p ) said, "Oh, no, it isn't! There's obviously some pain and sorrow there!" Hey, we know what we see, right :p ? For some things in the movies--as in the book--I don't really want to have a clear-cut answer, because speculating and analyzing is too much fun. :) It's one way I see the movies having "the spirit of the book."
[QUOTE]

Kuduk nods head fervently. Well, that’s why I’m here!

Sheryl, fascinating seduction/rape discussion regarding ring influence.

I must go watch the ring petting scene again to see what you saw.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carleenya
[B]Hobmom, you would go see Frodo if he was playing a dancing tomato, and you know it! So would I, for that matter. :cool:
[QUOTE]

Tomatoes, penguins, short hairy footed people. You name it, I'm there. :D

edit-I simul-posted with Hobmom-yes the head sticking out would have to be a pre-requisite. :)
BTW, I've been quite impressed by your Heart, Mind and Soul of Frodo thread.
Leonardo Di Caprio? Ack, gack, cough. Where are these casting agents brains?!

Leonardo Di Caprio? Ack, gack, cough. Where are these casting agents brains?! Hah! Did you say brains?!

Hollywood, with rare exceptions, believe (maybe with some reason) that the money is in the names they build up the most. The "stars" they push in your face so often that you want to take out a Restraining Order to keep them 100 feet away from you for awhile. Take J-Lo & Ben. Now, I have nothing against either of them, but I am quite sure that they would prefer a minute of privacy once in awhile. And I know way too much about their love life. I wish them well, I wish them long happiness, and I wish them a few minutes out my sight once in awhile! :rolleyes:

As much as I want Elijah to be appreciated for his talent, and to be in demand by the best directors for the juiciest parts, I never, ever, ever, wish him that kind of spotlight. *shudder* But it can be done half decently somehow. It don't feel like I know too much about DeNiro or Hoffman, or even Newman and Redford, who were much more attractive in the way Elijah is. (And I do think he's attractive, altho he certainly is able to hide it! :rolleyes: ) Of course, I'm sure one could make a study of them if one was so obsessed. :D But that would be me hunting down info on them, not the in-your-face Hollywood crap that makes me feel like the "stars" are stalking me! :eek:

Hey, now I think about it, how does Johnny Depp manage to stay out of the news as much as he does? He's attractive, he's cute, and he's talented. What's his secret, a Hobbit-hole somewhere? :confused:

Sorry, don't know how I got off on this rant. But I really like this kid. And no matter how old he gets, I'll always be older, so he's The Kid to me! The Talented Kid. The Sexy Talented Kid. Okay, I'm quitting now. :D

Originally posted by Carleenya
Hey, now I think about it, how does Johnny Depp manage to stay out of the news as much as he does? He's attractive, he's cute, and he's talented. What's his secret, a Hobbit-hole somewhere? :confused:

Johnny lives in France, for the precise reason (among others, I'm sure) that he gets treated like everyone else there. None of that celebrity lack of privacy or special treatment. :cool:

from kuduk
Yes! Ok, here I differ from most of the opinions I’ve seen here and maybe (kuduk reiterates, sorry) it’s partly since I saw the movie before I read the book, although having a Tolkien purist complain during and after the movie colored my reactions somewhat.

...Back to the scene: I didn’t understand people being upset about Frodo’s reaction to and anger at Sam. I thought, given the circumstances, it was pretty mild and he apologizes right away...
As a long-time book reader, I think my problem with the scene starts with Sam. I'm not saying Sam should have been kept as subservient to Frodo as he is in the book, but some of the lines he's given in several scenes IMHO seem as if he's not "tuned in" to Frodo; IMVHO, even a non-subservient Sam would be aware of the fight Frodo's going through constantly and would try to support him in it instead of telling him flat-out that he's not trying hard enough.

from Sheryl
In Bree when he's toying with the Ring, he's giving in to the experience. There's no torment to it. My eldest says he looks, "Relieved." But when he's petting the Ring in the marshes, she says he looks tortured - and I agree. There's torment to any pull the Ring has on him at that point, and the pleasure is more memory than reality somehow. His self-hatred for the hold the Ring has on him is the predominant feeling.
During the Ring petting, I see a glimpse of an expression Frodo has while holding Sting at Sam's throat. Not nearly as strong, of course, but it's that look of a confused small child--I'm not sure how else to describe it. It probably could be called tortured, in a way. It's as if he's can't quite understand why he's doing what he's doing. I hadn't thought of the self-hatred there, but it really fits--especially since PJ seems to be trying to emphasize the link between Frodo and Gollum.

The seduction vs. rape parallel is very good, too, IMHO. The Ring kind of "blew its cover" at Weathertop--with some help from the WiKi who thought the game was over. After that, the Ring's not going to be able to trick Frodo anymore; it's going to have to use force.

Originally posted by Carleenya
Hobmom, you would go see Frodo if he was playing a dancing tomato, and you know it! So would I, for that matter. :cool:
Yes, but what would the tomato's motivation be :p ? [Sorry, Dustin Hoffman method actor joke from Tootsie :rolleyes: ]

Keep trying. There must be someone out there for Elijah to portray that everyone feels like they "know".
I've hesitated to bring this up, although I've been thinking about it for months (which will be obvious from the length of my "spiel"), because I was afraid people would think it was too religious. But with Teresa in Ecstacy gracing the page, and Carly suggesting Jesus as a role, what about Francis of Assisi? He's someone people think they know, so you'd at least have an "Oh, yeah, I've heard of him," base to start with and could build up to the more complex person who really existed. And having played Frodo would actually be good background experience.

Francis starts off as a wealthy young partier with lots of friends, then becomes a soldier (riding a horse and wearing fancy Italian armor), gets captured and held as a prisoner of war for a year under conditions that are designed to make sure the prisoners will never be physically able to fight again. Holds himself (and his fellow prisoners) together during captivity, but after being released goes through severe PTSD. Actually does try to become a soldier again, but his body won't take it, so he goes through even more angst because that had been his only goal all his life. Then a spiritual awakening which could either be played as gradual--which it really was--or as more sudden if needed for time constraints and dramatic build-up. Worked with lepers and other kinds of really fun, cinematic things :rolleyes: .

Nasty father--beats his wife regularly and locks Francis up, and isn't too particular about how he makes money. Francis ends up disowning him (obligatory naked scene when Francis takes off all his clothes in front of the whole town--including the bishop--and gives them back to his father). Then a small community starts forming around Francis, beginning with a few of his friends. And after that all kinds of things happen that would have to be sifted through to find a coherent thread to follow. (And I haven't even mentioned Clare!) ---- With the present world climate, I'd love to see a well-done scene of Francis' meeting with the Sultan during the time of the Crusades, during which they actually treated each other with respect and honored each other's religious beliefs.

Francis was shorter than most people, was very charismatic and attracted people by his personality, and died in his 40's. The only problem I can see is that Francis had a great voice and did a lot of singing. But maybe that could be gotten around ;) .

The thing is, there's a teacher at the university I work at whose historical novel about Francis is at this moment being turned into a screenplay. The book was published a few years ago. It's considered a novel because she's added dialogue, etc., that we don't know occurred, but it's historically accurate and would probably be filmed on location in Italy (trying to think of what might be "new" about the experience to attract Elijah, since I'm sure the pay wouldn't be $3 mil!). I've been aching to suggest to her that they offer him the part, but I don't know her that well so have been reluctant to contact her out of the blue just to say that one thing. I'll be on a retreat with her in a few weeks--maybe I should pack my VHS of FotR to send home with her, as she very likely hasn't seen it.

And it is quite believable that one could awaken to the love of God in those eyes!
Which is exactly the way Francis affected people :) . He brought a positive spirituality into a time in history when a lot of religion was negative. I think it could be a great part.

Tgshaw--
I am so glad you said that about Sam. I agree. I think Sam is way out of line asking telling Frodo he has to fight the ring. I'm always floored when I hear him say so with seemingly so little understanding--and I wish Frodo would slap him!! I love Sam, but I am afraid that people just seeing the movie will take the lead from Sam's remarks to think that maybe Frodo isn't fighting enough. I wish the dialog made it more clear there just how much Frodo is fighting and that maybe was doing a pretty good job, considering. Sam could have been encouraging instead of accusing. I've read the books many times, but now am so immersed inthe movies that I can't quite remember how it goes in the books...but my thought is that Sam would be a bit more admiring and though he differs with Frodo about Gollum, he does have respect for Frodo's wisdom. Even at the Black gate--we know Sam isn't trusting of Gollum, but it almost comes off as if Sam thinks Frodo is so clearly making a big stupid mistake--and yet what kind of choice does Frodo have?? There is that big black gate in front of them and to me it looks like no way Frodo could suceed by making a dash for it. Frodo is making the best of bad choices. Even in the preview of RotK don't we hear Sam saying plaintively something like "don't you see?" (regarding going into Shelob's lair, I think)--and I get the feeling there is this set up for Sam to be pointing out Frodo's bad choices because he is now under the influence of the ring. But in my opinion, Frodo knows he has to go forward and there are no good choices....I think he does pretty well given what he has to choose from. So I love Sam and he is looking great--but I"d like to see him convey a little more respect for Frodo's position and thought processes, and not just tell him ---it's the ring making you act that way. GRanted, Frodo does lose his temper and we know the ring is getting at him. But who wouldn't lose their temper? --Sam was not exactly being polite himself...

Thank you Bridget Chubb for the link to the fancy posting instructions. I shall have to practice.

And Carleenya--you so have me pegged!!! You made me laugh. All those initials did, and sometimes still do, have me stumped!!! In fact it was some sort of test for me to figure at least a lot of them out before I attempted at posting. BUT since you brought it up--you tell me what ROTFLMAO stands for. I haven't a clue!!!

Oh I'm sorry--two posts in a row. I don't think you're supposed to do that, are you.

But, Oh, I said something bad. I don't really want Frodo to slap Sam. Not really. (I had to say that before the powers of middle -earthcame down to punish me). (If I knew my codes I would be putting some of those words in italics, or underlining).

And I love the St. Francis of Assisi idea. Love it.

Don't worry, Alyon, it's taken care of.:) Next time you want to add something, just click on the little "edit" button on the right-hand side of the post.:)

And regarding Sam (you all knew this was coming:p ) - No, he doesn't approve of Frodo's trust in Gollum. But, once Frodo's made his decision, he goes along with it. He respects Frodo's wisdom enough to go along with it even when it feels totally wrong to him. I also think that everything he says, whether it's telling Frodo he has to fight the Ring or saying "don't you see what's happening?", comes from his love and worry for Frodo. He wants to help him, but he doesn't know how. He protests against trusting Gollum because he knows that doing so will put his master in danger - and that's just what he should do. Sam's purpose on the Quest is to protect Frodo, and while sometimes his efforts put extra strain on Frodo, he's only doing what he feels he has to do to protect him.

Tg, the way you describe that St. Francis synopsis, story, psychology and underlying message, I think this could really work. It sounds great. Go ahead and mention EJW's name to your teacher acquaintance; - after all they can't say more than "no".

And St. Francis is one of the saints who's actually relatively well known, well, at least known by name and a couple of small stories, in non-catholic countries. (Whereas these various Theresas, now....... :o ) However, there could be so many pitfalls in a story of this particular kind. (I've been reading more than a bit about the controversies surrounding Mel Gibson's film about Jesus, you see.) Is it known who'll be directing the St. Francis project, or isn't it far enough along for that?


Anyway, I think it's safe to say that the Alexander the Great role train has left the station. There are actually 2 major Alexander projects in the works: One directed by Baz Luhrman, starring Leo DiCaprio, and one directed by Oliver Stone, starring Colin Farrel. Quite an impressive list of names just there.


Whiteling, I was most amazed by your Frodo / St. Theresea comparison. Quite unnerving and very apt.

Quick post from work. Been a challenging thrill to keep up with the Faculty of late. ;)

Originally posted by tgshaw
[B]As a long-time book reader, I think my problem with the scene starts with Sam. I'm not saying Sam should have been kept as subservient to Frodo as he is in the book, but some of the lines he's given in several scenes IMHO seem as if he's not "tuned in" to Frodo; IMVHO, even a non-subservient Sam would be aware of the fight Frodo's going through constantly and would try to support him in it instead of telling him flat-out that he's not trying hard enough.

I always saw it as Sam trying very hard to be there for Frodo and very much in tune with Frodo, not Sam not understanding Frodo. :) I love that scene because it's a scene that's very RL, IMO -- ever been sick and miserable and you've tried everything to feel better, and then a helpful friend who means well says something helpful, and your instinct is to just snap her head off? :p ;) Sam's trying very hard, within his means, and he never gives up on Frodo. That's something that's maintained all through the two movies so far, and it's something I definitely love Sam for. :)


Originally posted by Alyon:
Ainon--are you asking if I like angst and heart-clenching scenarios? Is that what you are asking?? Well.....how did you know? Oh, yes.

Birds of a feather flock together ... :D

Hobbits in heart-wrenching/heart-clenching scenarios? Oh, yes, some more. Please.

Welcome home, my friend. You've reached a safe haven. ;) CU is so gonna be the angstiest of all angstses!


Narya, love your post about Frodo at Osgiliath. :k


((((Faculty)))))

tg, Alyon and Bridget: enlightening discussions on Sam. I never agreed with the "Frodo is too whiny in TTT" complaint but I did wish PJ had turned down the Sam whininess (sp?, well he does like that pony :)) just a tad. I think he could have done that without destroying the themes of the ring's pull, Sam's protectiveness and Frodo and Sam's tension over Gollum.

The St. Francis of Assisi story sounds wonderful, though I don't know if I could still drool over the angst without feeling just a tad blasphemous. I know I couldn't for Jesus. OK, I think I need to get my priorities straight.

Colin Farrel as Alexander the Great?:eek: For once, kuduk is speechless.

Just piping in on the Alexander the Great/Francis of Assisi scenarios:

As far as I am concerned, Alexander the Great was a raging megalomaniac. But he was cute. So Colin Farrell is perfect casting!!:p Leo DiC as Alex is a little harder for me to comprehend... I have trouble envisioning EW in that role.

Elwood as Francis of Assisi? hmmm...right age, he could get away with the body type (he is so thin that an ascetic would be easy for him to play), and of course he has the acting chops. Interesting idea. But he would have to stop swearing, right? :rolleyes:

Nice discussion on the Sam/Frodo relationship. I thought that PJ was putting words into Sam's mouth that underscored what was happening in silence to Frodo ("don't you see the ring's taking over), which to my mind shows a lack of faith in his audience's being able to understand what is going on.

Originally posted by kuduk
tg, Alyon and Bridget: enlightening discussions on Sam. I never agreed with the "Frodo is too whiny in TTT" complaint but I did wish PJ had turned down the Sam whininess (sp?, well he does like that pony :)) just a tad.

Sam is whiny?!! :eek: :confused:

Oh well, I guess it's again one of those instances where I think I know what whiny means, but other folks have different definitions for it. :p :D I loved Sam in TTT, I loved how believable he was, and how hard he tried for Frodo. He might have missed the mark sometimes (to our POV, that is; in his situation everything he tried was the best he could do, I'd say), but he sure never gave up on his master.

No! I'm not trying to suck up to Bridget. :D

Anyway, this one's worth maybe a lame chuckle or two: Link removed

And TORn's Widescreen Fullscreen comparisons (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/orig/8465_orig.jpg) kinda fills in on stuff we talked about several pages back, although IIRC our discussion angle was more on how much fullscreen Frodo we'd get with the Fullscreen option .... ;)

I thought someone was making a movie of Alexander without EW - have we discussed that here before? I never watch movies with Jesus in them (unless we're talking Ben Hur level), so I'm not lobbying for EW to play Jesus at all.

St. Francis is another matter entirely. :cool: Mind you, most of what I know of St. Francis I picked up from a Marvel comic about him. :p And what I most clearly remember about that is a reviewer grumbling that (a) the nude scene was poorly handled because the artist seemed more interested in covering his character up than in dealing with the emotional power of the scene and (b) how the whole thing was kind of stilted and pretty when the actual history was far more powerful and rugged.

Plus I figured the daddy in the story was your standard Marvel "dense dad who doesn't understand" - I had no idea he really was a bad guy. And the Marvel comics version totally skipped the angst of St. Francis' imprisonment. Humph. Going on tgshaw's report, I say, "Bring it on! EW can do this! What's more, I want to see EW do this!" :D

tg, I'll second Maeglian's suggestion - find the opportunity to suggest EW to the person who wrote the book. And could you share the name of the book, please? I'd like to track it down. Come to think of it, I think I have read more on St. Francis - I read G.K. Chesterton's book on him, but GKC tends to be more ideologically interesting than historically informative when it comes to biographies. ;)

Alyon,
ROTFLMAO means "Rolling on the floor laughing my ass off". Let's see, have I used any acronymns in this post? :p Ah, just "IMHO" - In My Humble Opinion." Another one I use a lot is IIRC - "If I Recall Correctly."

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb
Don't worry, Alyon, it's taken care of.:) Next time you want to add something, just click on the little "edit" button on the right-hand side of the post.:)

Of course, if you're me, half the time you go to quote someone (that button on the far bottom right), you hit the "edit" button instead, and the system informs you you can't do that to someone else's post. *sigh*

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb

I also think that everything he says, whether it's telling Frodo he has to fight the Ring or saying "don't you see what's happening?", comes from his love and worry for Frodo. He wants to help him, but he doesn't know how.

Hey, Bridget, remember our PM conversation way back when we first met at Imly, how I insisted that Sam would have been a much more assertive person and a leader like Merry if he'd been raised by someone not the Gaffer? PJ agrees with me! :cool: :D

I kind of agree with peaceweaver that the "Mine! My own!" conversation beats us over the head with the obvious, but it does seem true to Sam's character. In the book, Sam's character was raised by a guy who pounded in to him the idea that he has to "keep his place" and otherwise told him he didn't know what he was doing and to leave his betters in charge. I mean, just look at some of the stuff Sam reports as, "My old gaffer always said about me" - put down after put down! But the guy still goes on to be Mayor. Frodo helped, of course, but how many guys raised as Sam was would have the strength of character to make use of that help to rise that high, particularly since Frodo himself left and wasn't there to offer moral support?

PJ does not have Sam raised by *that* Gaffer - movieSam was raised by a Gaffer who is comfortable sitting with Frodo and telling him to his face he's "cracking", and Sam is not convinced he needs to "keep his place" in the same sense at all. With this different background, Sam is more assertive. He knows Frodo is in pain, he cares about Frodo, and he's frustrated by the situation. He is also the type of person who wants problems solved. BookSam was freed of a lot of stress by completely shutting out that part of his personality, in that he saw his responsibility as serving Frodo. MovieSam sees that as his responsibility as well, but he wasn't raised with the "servants should be silent" mentality pounded into bookSam. Unlike bookSam, movieSam believes he has some responsibility to try and help Frodo by suggesting solutions, if you will.

MovieSam reminds me of my dad, particularly in the scene in question. He figures that if carrying the Ring is Frodo's job (bet money he's up on Gadalf's take on that), therefore Frodo ought to be able to carry the Ring without being in such pain if he'd just try a little harder! Took me years to understand that when my dad "yelled" at me to try harder, he was actually trying to be supportive. :rolleyes: Not the best way to go about it, but true to that type of personality, IMHO. I think that even bookSam has a certain blindness to what Frodo's going through - he's a more "task-oriented" person, and less internal, and he just flat doesn't understand all the twisted implications of being a Ring Bearer.


ROTK spoiler
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The fact that Sam almost imediately puts on the Ring once he is in charge of it shows the depth of his misunderstanding - just as the fact that he manages to give it back later shows the strength of personality. He does not realize the true danger of the Ring, even after watching Frodo with it all that time. He doesn't consciously view himself as immune to the Ring or stronger than Frodo - but I think on some level even bookSam thinks he can handle the situation better than Frodo. But he's smart enough to realize his error once actually in the situation. I am really, really wondering/worried about how PJ handles this. I am curious about what Sam experiences while in Ringworld, but I am also concerned because of all the talk of Frodo and Sam battling across Mordor - I think in the book Sam has a slightly better understanding of what Frodo's going through after wearing the Ring himself.

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End spoilers

originally posted by ainon
CU is so gonna be the angstiest of all angstses!



It had better be! Radiates implacably demanding vibes at PJ. But even if it isn't, the book still is. :)

Bother.

I will not anticipate, I will not anticipate, I will not anticipate.

Or maybe I'll just reveal my lack of willpower. *sigh*

Sheryl

edit:

originally posted by ainon
No! I'm not trying to suck up to Bridget.

I was starting to wonder... ;) Then I decided you've just been listening to her too long. :D

Sheryl flees the Mod's wrath.

Sheryl

Originally posted by kuduk
...but I did wish PJ had turned down the Sam whininess (sp?, well he does like that pony :))
kuduk--that one took me a few seconds :D :D -- I think that would be "whinniness" :p . Edit: Awww, you changed it :( .

I think he could have done that without destroying the themes of the ring's pull, Sam's protectiveness and Frodo and Sam's tension over Gollum.
I don't have any problem with the tension over Gollum, or over following him (although Sam's not as physically harsh with Gollum in the book--it's kind of hard to show how tightly a rope is tied in a movie). IMHO it's an important conflict in the story that both Sam and Frodo know it's not really safe to follow Gollum, but Frodo has to deal with the fact that there's no other choice except giving up... which he's not going to do.

And I wouldn't expect Sam to understand all the ramifications of "You can't save him." As I said, I don't think I would have caught it if I hadn't read the pre-movie interviews. The only line that really bothers me is the "You've got to fight it." Even something like, "I know you're fighting it, but..." would have given Sam credit for some awareness of what's going on.

We're pretty sure that scene was a pick-up, but does anyone know about the scene with Sam telling Frodo to use the Ring to turn invisible and escape? It seems to me those two scenes reflect each other, with Frodo's line about "You tried to tell me..." IMHO, that scene's also a bit "off"--in that I think Sam would know at least that Frodo shouldn't put on the Ring--and I'm wondering if they were added at the same time.

The St. Francis of Assisi story sounds wonderful, though I don't know if I could still drool over the angst without feeling just a tad blasphemous...
Well, he is an eligible bachelor for a good part of the story. :)

Maeg--I don't know who's directing, but it's probably someone no one's ever heard of (not a high-budget movie, as I hinted before); actually, I think someone did tell me, but the name didn't stick, so it was someone I'd never heard of, at least. But knowing the book author and knowing a fair amount about Francis, I'm certain there wouldn't be the problems connected with Mel Gibson's movie. The most controversial thing about that one is, well, Mel Gibson, and his extremely right-wing religious leanings. He makes fundamentalist televangelists look like absolute liberals!

Added to that is his claim that he's going to use the gospels "literally," which might be okay if everyone understood what they're seeing, but I don't think a majority of the movie-going public would when you're dealing with culture and writings that are from 2000 years ago.

Neither of those problems would affect this movie on Francis.




Colin Farrel as Alexander the Great?:eek: For once, kuduk is speechless.
...and Leo? Could I dust off an old favorite Faculty phrase we haven't seen for awhile? "At least it's not Josh Hartnett." :p ;)



[i]Edit re peaceweaver's simulpost:

Elwood as Francis of Assisi? hmmm...right age, he could get away with the body type (he is so thin that an ascetic would be easy for him to play), and of course he has the acting chops. Interesting idea. But he would have to stop swearing, right?
Just onscreen--he pulled off Frodo okay in that area :) ...

...I thought that PJ was putting words into Sam's mouth that underscored what was happening in silence to Frodo ("don't you see the ring's taking over), which to my mind shows a lack of faith in his audience's being able to understand what is going on.
Thanks--I think that's a big piece of what bothers me about it that I hadn't been able to put into words.

Egads!, what a great bunch of posts! Now I remember what being a Faculty Member means - you can't just "flit" thru this thread, glance at pictures, and move on to the next silly, swoony little idea. The subjects in here, even when they are totally off the wall :rolleyes: have great weight, and one has to focus and think. Sometimes that's asking a lot. :D *edit* Now I remember that's why we started this thread in the first place. Imagine trying to follow and involve oneself in this type of conversation, interspersed by swoony posts by those whose socks were bored right off by all this "talk, talk, talk"! Interestingly, the swoonier threads have now evolved, IMO, into very intelligent stuff of a different nature, including vignettes written with as much talent as any recognized author could ever hope for. All in all, this Site has a collection of some of the smartest people I have ever met, in every thread! And we still know how to swoon, too! *end edit*

It is so interesting to hear how many different interpretations of Sam's behaviour even viewers who agree on the basics have! Reminds me what a difficult job PJ had, to try to please us. Amazing that he pulled it off at all - and that by good directing and awesome actors, IMO. I am so thankful for the multi-layered acting and dialogue in these Movies. Surely even Tolkien would have approved if he could read all the deep thought and dialogue it has generated!

As a Methodist who hasn't practiced formal religion for a long time *hanging head* what little I knew of St Francis of Assisi was that he was a Saint (duh) so he must have had lots of "soul" if you know what I mean, and that he was beloved by all animals. (Which in itself indicates lots of soul, to me.) Our tg has completely sold me on the idea of his life being well worth portraying, and I would love to see EW in the role! He could so pull that off, and we would get to see his particular talents at their best. However, I beg for the Wig or long hair. It does change his face so (shades of a very deep analysis of The Wig long, long ago!) and frames his expressions so well. The role as tg describes would be something Lij would carry with him, as he does his Frodo role, both in his own heart and in the world's view of his talent. Bring it on! :D

Sheryl, I am so glad you brought up Sam's gaffer! I remember when reading the book, thinking "emotional abuse-what a jerk!" but I tried to rationalize that I am unaccustomed to the "class system" portrayed in that time period. Perhaps beating that into the heads of one's children actually did them a benefit, since rising above one's "station" was, in fact, impossible in their RL. Imagine how miserable your children would be if they were raised to believe they could be anything or do anything they put their mind to, in a world where that was just damn impossible due to the prevailing culture. Whether that was true or not, the gaffer's rearing of Sam had everything to do with Sam's view of himself and the world around him, and it had not yet occurred to me how different this would be in the Movies. The "gaffer calling Bilbo cracked" scene in the Pub actually bothered me, as it was so out of character for the book gaffer. As PJ obviously did this with purpose, indeed, how could we expect Sam to act exactly the way he did in the books?! Good call!

Alyon, Sheryl kindly informed you of some of the most-used abbreviations you will run across. We also use RL (Real Life) and BTW (By The Way) a lot. When we use others, speak up if you can't figure them out! But now that you have the idea, you'll be surprised about many you understand from now on.

Originally posted by shilohmm

originally posted by ainon
No! I'm not trying to suck up to Bridget.


I was starting to wonder... ;) Then I decided you've just been listening to her too long. :D

Sheryl flees the Mod's wrath.

Oh, you're such a kidder, Sheryl. Come on, admit it, you loved TT Sam too.;) :D

ainon, I had to remove your first link - there was a bit of questionable stuff on that site.:o :k

originally posted by tgshaw
We're pretty sure that scene was a pick-up, but does anyone know about the scene with Sam telling Frodo to use the Ring to turn invisible and escape? It seems to me those two scenes reflect each other, with Frodo's line about "You tried to tell me..." IMHO, that scene's also a bit "off"--in that I think Sam would know at least that Frodo shouldn't put on the Ring--and I'm wondering if they were added at the same time.

I think it is. It's got the most obvious poor continuity in the movie - Frodo and Sam are in a completely different position during that discussion than they are when Faramir enters, but the way it's cut there shouldn't have been any time gap.

I'd probably agree with your now-non-existent Mel rant. I cannot comprehend his whole point in having the thing in the original languages - what in world inspired that?

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb

Oh, you're such a kidder, Sheryl. Come on, admit it, you loved TT Sam too.

'Course I do. Of all the hobbits, SA's Sam is closest to the character I knew from the book. Plus he's got those lovely hazel eyes. :p I still think you and ainon have a suspiciously similar view of him, though. ;)

Sheryl

I think we haven't had enough foolishness here lately :). So what about a comment on the Frodo and Sam relationship from Johann Wolfgang von Goethe set to music by Franz Schubert? The original song was ineptly titled Der Erlkoenig but that had to be corrected along with some other minor 'mistakes.'

The One Ring

Who's trekking so late through the windy night?
It's Samwise holding his Master so tight.
Ringbearer's cradled safe in his arm,
He holds him sure and he holds him warm.

"Why is your face so frightened?" says he.
"The One Ring, Oh Samwise, talks to me
Of terrible Kingdom and its cruel crown."
"It's raindrops, Master, falling down."

The One Ring speaks:
Yes, my hobbit, come go with me!
The games I play, you'll like them, come see.
The fire's hot in the Mount of Doom,
His Lordship's Dark Fortress, you will see soon.

"Oh Samwise, Oh Samwise, can you not hear
What the One Ring promises? I fear!"
"Be calm, my Master--my Sir, be at ease.
The wind blows the dry leaves off the trees."

The One Ring speaks:
My halfling boy, won't you come with me?
I have minions in whose care you'll be.
My minions dance round the One Great Ring.
Each night they'll cradle you, dance and sing.

"Samwise, dear Samwise, can you not see
The One Ring's minions staring at me?"
"My Master, yes, I see it so well:
Gray marshlands on which the moonlight fell."

The One Ring Speaks:
I love you for your beauty of course,
But if you don't listen, I will use force.
"Samwise, dear Samwise, it's torturing me.
Of One Ring's grasp, Samwise please, free me."

Dread falls on Samwise, heavier than stone,
In loving arms he feels Frodo moan.
At last, Mount Doom; with fear and dread,
Sam looks at his Master; but he looks dead.

Original lyrics (in German and English) here (http://ingeb.org/Lieder/werreite.html).

Woah, Brunhild, that was priceless :) ! Thank you!
But I'm pretty sure good old Goethe turns over in his grave... :D

Oh, my gosh--now I can use the new acronym I learned from The Faculty. ROTFLMAO. Thank you, Brunhild. I will be singing it my sleep tonight.

Oh, please don't anyone think I don't love TT Sam. I love both Frodo and Sam in those bickering scenes. I love the emotion and the acting. Its just that after repeated viewings I come to wish some of the lines had just been tweaked abit. I mean, I KNOW that Sam only wants to be supportive and is worried about Frodo. But I agree with tgshaw that if he had just said something along the lines of (quote) "I know you're fighting...but ..". Because I think it may convey to someone who hasn't read the books that maybe Frodo isn't fighting enough, in Sam's opinion. But I don't blame Sam for that. Just a little tweaking of the lines by the writers, please.

Kind of like in the Weathertop scene I know you guys have talked so much about. To me, knowing that Nazgul merely flying overhead are supposed to make mighty soldiers drop their weapons in fear--then it makes sense that when all of their malice is focused right on Frodo, that he would drop his sword. But I still have had to explain that to some people who haven't read the books. Frodo is not being a wimp. And in this case, in TT, Frodo is not being weak. (IMHO).

The scene is great and Sam is great. I just want the audience to not misunderstand at that point...and perhaps I am over concerned where I need not be.

Another little piece of language that trips me up a little is Frodo asking Sam "Why do you always have to run him down?" It just sounds a little too modern to me. Love the sentiment. But the words always make me smile a little. (Oh--I am going to feel really stupid if I find out that those are Tolkien's words!! Oh NO!! Run for the book!).

So I don't question Sam. He proves himself enough in that movie. Just wish the scriptwriter fined-tuned that bit a little more. (Said with all due respect to said writers).

Hello, all. This is Alyon's daughter.

Well, I'd just thought I'd comment here on what my mom just said (meaning she just told me that I should come up here and write something).
I, having not read the books, did not at all think that Sam didn't know Frodo was fighting the power of the ring. I knew that Sam didn't entirely understand what Frodo was fighting, but that he was concerned about what he was going through and needed to tell him to stay strong in his fight. I didn't get the feeling at all that he thought Frodo was weak or not trying to resist the power. Obviously he's perceptive in that he's noticed how Frodo wasn't sleeping, eating or acting entirely normal, so I assumed that could also see how much Frodo was struggling. I think he was only worried about him and encouraging him to continue to resist the ring's power.
So, I guess some people who hadn't read the books may have thought differently, but that's how I took it.

(So now Alyon gets back on to admit that she is wrong--at least some non-book readers got it. Maybe they all did. I worry too much....Though I have to say that my kid is very hobbit-centric, having a particular empathy for and understanding of them. In my defense she has a friend to whom we do often have to explain these hobbit things. This might color my perception).

'Alyon's Daughter' - welcome! Thank you for your insightful first post. :) Pull up a chair, stay! We promise to be good and spoiler-mark every spoiler. Make yourself comfortable! A welcome gift for mother & daughter (and a good time to gratuitously post favourite hobbit pics)

http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/film-images/film-frodosam01.jpg

http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/film-images/film-pippin04.jpg

Thanks to Elve for the images.


Brunhild, that was brilliant! LOL!!

Sorry about that link, Bridget. I frequent that site myself, and I should have known better. :o I only checked that that one page was 'clean' and overlooked that the links from that page might not be! :eek: (((Bridget)))

Originally posted by Alyon
But I agree with tgshaw that if he had just said something along the lines of (quote) "I know you're fighting...but ..". Because I think it may convey to someone who hasn't read the books that maybe Frodo isn't fighting enough, in Sam's opinion. But I don't blame Sam for that. Just a little tweaking of the lines by the writers, please.

I think most of us who love Frodo love Sam too. :) :k Anyway, it's really only all about individual perception in the end. Like, if I'd heard the line "I know you're fighting ... but .... " then I probably would be the one annoyed with the writers for turning the sentiment into some Hallmark movie moment. ;) The line in the movie being as it is, though, that made me go, yeah, that's what an ordinary fellow would say, someone who thinks he does understand to a certain extent, but who can never really understand fully because he's not experiencing it himself. Now, how's that for a roundabout way of saying it? :p

I mean, IMO, if Sam never understood Frodo, he wouldn't know that Frodo is fighting the Ring. I hear the way he says "You have to fight it!" the way a caring friend tells you "Yes, I know that @#%! medicine tastes like @!$@ and you don't think it helps; just take it!" Stating the obvious, sure, but close friends have an irritating tendency to be like that.

I think if Sam didn't believe in Frodo as a Ringbearer, he wouldn't have suggested that Frodo use the Ring to try and escape while they're held captive in HA. They're in dire straits, and if there's one time when it's a good idea to be invisible, well, that was it. No harm, surely, in taking a risk and using the Ring once, for a jolly good cause? In fact if I were an audience watching LOTR that's what I would be thinking ... Frodo's the Ringbearer, ain't he? Why can't he? Just once? So I also saw that scene as a way for Sam to get the question out in the open on behalf of the audience. I should confess though that even as a bookreader I used to toy with the idea of Frodo actually using the Ring himself, so okay, maybe it's just me.

As for Frodo being perceived as weak ... sigh. I kinda gave up on that issue long ago. LOTR is an ensemble movie, so let people choose their favourites and if they don't like Frodo, then fine. I'll have him and share him with folks who do like him, and I'll practice ignoring folks who diss my Frodo. 'course that's easier said than done, but, well, at least I sound darn magnanimous when I say it, don't I? :D :D


Doubling back to Maeg's post some pages ago about the atrocity that was 'Valentine' :p I just watched 'Identity', starring John Cusack and assorted folks who die one by one, and I gotta say that the genre (if you can call the 'bunch of people whom you just know are gonna die one by one' story type a 'genre') has been very nicely revitalised. I enjoyed that movie thoroughly. And I'll gamely bring this back on topic by observing that, gee, all those 'one by one's in 'The Faculty' and yet they never actually followed the convention to rightful deathly end, did they? :)

Sam, Sam, Sam. I love Sam, I do. I would almost go so far as saying I like book Sam more than book Frodo (at this point).

But, re my comment about movie Sam whining in TTT:

In FOTR we have "'I'm going to Mordor alone', 'of course you are and I'm coming with you!'"

In TTT we have "you can't save him...you've got to fight it...I don't believe you (to Gollum)...he'll throttle us in our sleep"

In FOTR we have "don't you leave him Samwise Gamgee. And I don't mean to, I don't mean to" (*sniff, whimper*)



OK, I just watched just a few TTT scenes to check dialogue and maybe I'm off base, but my point is still that in FOTR Sam is selfless but in TTT, especially the scenes with or concerning Gollum, Sean Astin's portrayal of Sam strikes me as going beyond protectiveness of Frodo to being selfish and resentful.

He seems to have developed this annoying upper lip
(or should I say filtrum?;)) curl when Gollum is around.

For those more familiar with the book, how does the tension between Sam and Gollum in the movie compare to the book tension?

I do love the "great tales" scene though. Vintage Elijah and Sean.

Ainon-thanks for the pics! Especially the first, sigh...

Alyon's daughter--how about registering yourself? I'd love to hear more from you both!

Now, dear Faculty colleagues, it is me who needs your help and advice...
I've climbed over the first 30 posts (Sheryl, see my new title and you may imagine me bearded :D) and I'd like to create an avatar. Can I use a screencap and do you mind, if I take it from you, Hobmom, Tg, ainon or Elve?
Thanks to ainon I have an internet provider for images (photobucket). Please, could anyone of you explain, how I can change a screencap into an avatar... What must I do?

Alyon, it's such fun to discover and to learn all the internet tricks, isn't it? I consider myself rather a newbie yet. But to speak with Manuel, the spanish waiter in John Cleese's "Fawlty Towers" Hotel: "I learrrn. I'm getting betterrr!" (At least I hope so :o ;) !)

Hi to "Alyon's daughter"! Please continue taking part in here :) !


(((Faculty)))

Congratulations, Senior Whiteling! ;) Sure, go ahead, take any caps of mine that you want, although I don't recall that I ever came up with much of 'em. It's only on very rare occasions that I snap outta my lazy streak to get anything done. :p To change a cap into an avatar, you must shrink it to the right size (I believe tg's the best person to give that tutorial :) ), then upload it to photobucket, and then link to it. That's just a summary. PM me if you need details. :)


Originally posted by kuduk
OK, I just watched just a few TTT scenes to check dialogue and maybe I'm off base, but my point is still that in FOTR Sam is selfless but in TTT, especially the scenes with or concerning Gollum, Sean Astin's portrayal of Sam strikes me as going beyond protectiveness of Frodo to being selfish and resentful.


I think that's precisely the point. ;) Two's company. Three's a crowd. Sam is Frodo's best mate on this long perilous quest. Sam depends on Frodo, Frodo depends on Sam. They trust each other with their lives.

Then this thing joins the troop. A wretched, horrid thing. He should be killed! And he's certainly not to be trusted. And yet ... Frodo trusts that thing? Frodo accepts Gollum's word over Sam's? Suddenly it's not just Sam and Frodo anymore; it's Frodo, Sam and Gollum, and wouldn't you know it, there are times when Sam has to admit that Gollum does seem half decent, and oh, how that must gall.

I think that's why I loved TTT so much first time I saw it. The dynamics were so real. Sure, still couched in movie terms (because well, it is a movie ;) ) but the way Sean and Elijah play it, it's all so familiar! I mean we've all been there, I think? When we're kids in school and we have best friends, and suddenly an 'outsider' joins the group and that 'outsider' becomes a friend to you far too fast for your best friend's liking? Or vice versa? Still happens when we're adults too, except we try harder to pretend we're not sulking and thus become more miserable. :p

I'm only talking about my perceptions of the movie. Honestly can't remember the dynamics in the book. :o

Originally posted by Alyon
Oh, please don't anyone think I don't love TT Sam. I love both Frodo and Sam in those bickering scenes. I love the emotion and the acting. Its just that after repeated viewings I come to wish some of the lines had just been tweaked abit...

...Another little piece of language that trips me up a little is Frodo asking Sam "Why do you always have to run him down?" It just sounds a little too modern to me. Love the sentiment. But the words always make me smile a little.
What she said :) . And all of the lines I wish could be "tweaked a bit" are in those two scenes that seem to have been added at the same time. IMVHO, they just don't quite fit in. (There does seem to be a tendency for scenes that are added later to not quite "gel" with the rest--seen a few times in the FotR SE, IMHO.)

(Oh--I am going to feel really stupid if I find out that those are Tolkien's words!! Oh NO!! Run for the book!).
:p No worries there! Although there is a scene with a similar theme (involves the word "sneak" for those who've read RotK).

As far as tension between Sam and Frodo in the book, IMHO the movie does pretty well interpreting the tension over Gollum. And I give Sean A. a little leeway on the "annoying" facial expressions, because he has to show the "inner Sam" there the way Elijah often has to show the "inner Frodo." During much of the Gollum tension in the book we're in Sam's POV, so we know what he's thinking--and he thinks a lot of things he doesn't let onto outwardly. In the movie we have to see those thoughts (and it's kind of hard to make it obvious that someone's "sucking his teeth" :p ). Really the only line regarding Gollum that bothers me a bit is the overly modern "...running him down..." Even the rest of that sentence is okay as far as I'm concerned. It's the lines regarding the Ring in both of the added scenes that just seem out of place to me. I don't remember any tension about that between Frodo and Sam in the book. Interestingly, though, Sam does the major portion of the complaining at the beginning of TTT.

And, as has been said, this isn't a big deal... if that's the worst I have to complain about in these characters' dialogue, that's pretty darn good!
--------------------------


from whiteling
Please, could anyone of you explain, how I can change a screencap into an avatar... What must I do?
I have a program on my computer I use to do this, but I think there are some internet sites where you can do it for free if you don't have a photo editing program. (Maybe even photobucket, but I don't know--I'm sure someone else does.)

You basically have to do two things--change the pic into a .gif file and resize it so it's no more than 50x50 pixels (and you don't have to know what a pixel is--whatever program you use should list that as a measurement option).

50x50 pixels is pretty small, so you'll want to crop off any part of the screencap that's extraneous before you do any resizing.

The picture you start with will probably be a .jpg (I think some of Hobmom's are .bmp's), but that doesn't really matter. Some programs just have you use the "save as" function to change to a different type of file (just change the .jpg or .bmp to .gif and save the pic that way). Some photo editing programs have special functions for the process, but the instructions shouldn't be too difficult. And any editing option you use will have a way to resize the pic down to 50x50 pixels (that limit is set by KD, BTW, to hold down bandwidth use; if you try to use something larger it won't "take"--which I found out accidentally :o ).

After changing the pic to a .gif and resizing, you can do some tweaking if you want (ooo, that's the fun part :cool: ). I'm still learning different tricks for this, after almost a year of using a different avatar nearly every day, and there are still some pics I get frustrated over when I try to make them clear at that small size. Brightening and sharpening usually help, and sometimes other functions do, too (contrast, color correction, etc.). But that's all something you can play with as you go along. You can always open up the file you're using and "spruce up" the avatar if you learn something new.

When the avatar's ready, go to your "Member control panel" and "Change options." Click "Change avatar" and it'll take you to a page where you make a link to it. You can either have the avatar online (like at photobucket) and link to the URL, or you can keep it on your hard drive and link to it as an attachment. I do the latter, since I change them so often, but I know some people feel safer not linking into their hard drive.

----IMHO, it's fun to make your own avatar, but if you want, there's a standing offer for almost any of the ones I've used (they're all on my hard drive)--if you let me know which one you want, I can email it to you. ---- BTW, that's maybe a good offer to repeat with so many new members showing up. You can PM me if there's one you'd like to use. [There are a few I occasionally reuse, so selfishly keep for myself :rolleyes: .]

I have no idea how the people do it who have various pictures flash in rotation in their avatar, so if you want to do that I'm no help at all :( . Have fun :) .

Movie!Sam's reaction to Gollum is very much like Book!Sam's reaction to Gollum. Sam in TTT is resentful of Gollum, certainly, but so is Book Sam! Tolkien talks of Sam's jealousy in the Collected Letters ... and as ainon says, it is perfectly understandable, born of his great love and protectiveness towards Frodo. Movie!Sam in TTT does not come across as selfish to me. He IS more aggressive with Gollum than Book!Sam is ... but not much more.

I thought the movie got the Frodo/Sam/Gollum dynamic pretty much nailed. :)

The only thing I've got against Movie!Sam is that he's so damn preachy at the end of TTT. :p But that's PJ's fault, not Sean Astin's. ;)

I love Movie!Frodo's compassion towards Gollum ... although it is rather different from Book!Frodo's motivation. Film Frodo is more like an addict who pities another addict's plight. I think that's a valid interpretation. :) But it's not really how Tolkien portrays Frodo's mercy on Gollum. His Frodo is more detached. I can't yet see Elwood's Frodo rounding on Gollum on the slopes of Mount Doom, 'if you touch me again you shall be yourself cast into the fire ...' etc. And perhaps that would undermine PJ's softer, more vulnerable characterisation of Frodo.

EJW as Jesus? Actually, I can see that ... kind of. I'm a Christian and don't object to film portrayals of Jesus, if they are done reverently of course, and EJW is a sensitive actor. :) I'm not sure how helpful it is to portray Christ with such divinely blue eyes though ... it's such a Western cliche. Jesus was a Mediterranean Jew ... far more likely to have had brown eyes!!!!!

Red Letter Day! We have Alyon and Daughter posting now! How wonderful it is to hear new input from people who appreciate the depth of what they are seeing (and will be reading.) Welcome, Alyon's Daughter! (Hey, wasn't that a famous Elf Maiden in Middle Earth? :D ) Alyon, you may not be right about non-readers getting certain points the way the movies played it, but I have the same concerns you have most of the time. When I sometimes read of PJ's playing "down" to the viewers - usually said with scorn - I think "There are two kinds of Viewers he has to deal with - and one of those groups needs to be played down to." Since he needs their money too, to be successful, what can you do?

Originally posted by Pearl
I'm not sure how helpful it is to portray Christ with such divinely blue eyes though ... it's such a Western cliche. Jesus was a Mediterranean Jew ... far more likely to have had brown eyes!!!!!
I was waiting for someone to point that out. :) Actually, Orlando has better coloring for the project, but I cannot begin to think of that. It's just wrong. :eek: But Jesus has been portrayed by Caucasians so many times now that I have just accepted that Jesus would be Jesus, no matter how he really looked. Whether he was the Son of God or "merely" a Prophet, to sway people the way he did in masses indicates an incredible ability for oration. But to move people on an individual basis as he did, I have always believed there must have been something extraordinary in his eyes. Whether they saw The Truth, or His Beliefs, they had to have been deeply moved when looking into his eyes. And Elijah could pull that off with his physical looks and acting ability. I don't think I have ever seen anyone who could act as pure as Frolijah, nor convey so much in micro-expressions.

But, I'm all for the Francis of Assisi idea now. :) What an incredible life he led, and what an incredible person it must have made him. Here's where my mother's old expression works for me - "What doesn't kill you makes an Indian Brave of you." Just to survive what he did is astounding, but to become so much more after - I would love to see the whole story told well! And EW is just the boy to pull it off! Do you think we could get PJ to direct? He seems to get so much more out of Elijah than any director has since. (If so, put a clause in his contract about not adding any new female characters, or blowing any RL female characters' influence on his life out of proportion, please. ;) )

Ainon, many thanks for your kind offer :k and Tg, your avatar tutorial in very great detail made me speechless...you answered every question imaginable - thanks a million for such great support :k !
Weekend will be fine to follow your instructions.

As for the topic "EW as St. Francis" - I think it would be a wonderful role for him. I'd very much like to see him preaching the birds (I love birds, no I'm bird-obsessed!) - And if he had been born as woman he would make a marvellous St. Bernadette, right :cool: ?

Originally posted by Carleenya
...Do you think we could get PJ to direct? He seems to get so much more out of Elijah than any director has since. (If so, put a clause in his contract about not adding any new female characters, or blowing any RL female characters' influence on his life out of proportion, please. ;) )
Well, we know EW will work for scale if he's interested enough in a project and thinks he can learn something from it. I've never heard that about PJ--and he'll be getting back to King Kong as soon as LotR lets him ;) .

The only RL female who would be likely to get blown out of proportion would be St. Clare--and if they stick pretty close to the book, that won't happen in this one. There are a couple of little-known RL women whom I'd love to see "pop up" in a movie, though. Not a "big influence" on Francis, but friends of his and interesting characters in their own right :) .

Originally posted by shilohmm
I still think you and ainon have a suspiciously similar view of him, though. ;)

Well, you know, I always said that ainon was a smart one.




;) :p

Brunhild, I remember reading/listening to Der Erlkoenig back in high school Music History class. That always freaked us out.:eek: I love your version!

whiteling, and tg - just FYI (that's "For your information," for anyone who's wondering;) ) - Avatars can also be in .jpg format (along with probably some other formats, but I don't know which ones.:o ) You have to download a special program to make the animated ones - if anyone's interested, PM me and I'll be happy to animate one for you or tell you what you need.:)

Welcome, Alyon's daughter!:)

re Sam's you've got to keep fighting line:
I totally relate to that line. It's very much a mother's line. The *desperate because they can't help their child so they tell him off instead* line. I have always seen Sam (book and film) as very "mothering" to Frodo : he cooks, tells him to sleep, supports, does the boring practical stuff and occasionally nags.This "fight it" line is borne out of frustration, helplessness and love. Sam would like to take the burden from him and knows he can't.

Of course, its totally unhelpful to berate the struggling. But very motherish. (I speak from repeated experience here). :rolleyes: It so much easier to grump than to weep. (And Sam is on the verge of tears later in this scene).

Practical personal example follows (skip if boring...;) )

My youngest son became very ill with an unspecified virus recently. Result: dehydration and brief hospitalisation. Once back home he started to drop off taking fluids again (it made him nauseated to drink). What does his mother do? TELL HIM OFF! How totally useless to a wee boy who was feeling wretched, struggling to do as asked and failing. I wasn't really angry with him though: just scared and helpless.
Its just so much easier to be angry instaed of scared.

BTW he did get better and my mood improved. :)

I was walking back to my car in downtown Chicago today, and unexpectedly encountered (for the first time!) the Frodo Bus Stop billboard! I had seen both the Aragorn and Gandalf posters, and had concluded that New Line hadn't made one of Frodo. Imagine my surprise to see a larger than life size image of Frodo from TTT in living color staring at me from the wall of the bus stop! It was heart attack Frodo, no less! :eek: Nearly gave me a heart attack!

But I'm not complaining! :cool:

Re: Love interest for Francis of Assisi (now there's a phrase I never thought I would ever write. :p ) We must remember that a life of Francis would have to explore his life before his conversion! If only to enhance the drama of his renunciation of worldly pleasures. The possibilities are staggering! ;)

(((Prim))) Glad to know the wee one is OK.

ainon: Thanks for posting the "Legendary Frodo and Sam" pic. I love that one!

Strange but true.

In Bossier City, Louisianna, there is a bar called Blilbo Baggins, Bar and Grill.

It is just a tiny bar all by itself on the road, past the Boats.

:eek:

Well Imagine That!

:D

Catching up.......... :)

Good to hear the little one's better now, Prim! Totally agree with you on why Sam speaks as he does in the "Mine, my own!" scene.

And as for the HA scene where Sam tells Frodo to put on the Ring, Sam has never bothered me there either, nor seemed to "not understand" because:

1) I agree with Rikka, that this scene has been shifted around.... originally it was meant to follow in sequence *after* the Faramir Ring-lust episode, at which point Sam would consider very desperate measures necessary to get Frodo away from Faramir, even if he *does* understand quite a lot of what the Ring's doing to Frodo.

2) It's necessary for the general newbie audience. "Hey, that Ring makes him invisible, right? Why doesn't he just put it on for a moment and sneak out of there, then?" Frodo's explanation of why he doesn't do that takes care of that newbie quibble for that scene and any following. That's OK by me.


Brunhild, I really enjoyed the "Erlkönig" LotR adaption! I met that poem for the first time while still at school, and as opposed to some of the other Goethe texts we had to read that just went right over my head at the time, I suppose :o - that one I *really* loved, and still does. Think I knew it by heart at the time. "Wer reitet so spät durch Nacht und Wind..." Brings back memories, that does! :)

Guess it's the imagery, the emotions of fear, desperation and love, the spookyness, the supernatural element, the sadness and the"destiny" element....... At that age I also read LotR for the first time and loved it to pieces. Other *poems* that I read and loved at the same time were Keats' "La belle Dame Sans Merci" and Tennyson's "The lady of Shalott". I'll admit, there is obviously a common denominator in the enjoyment of these various poems and of LotR, and of the Arthurian sagas..... In case anyone here are with me in that, I'd like to mention that both the two poems have been very beautifully Frodo-fied by haremites:

Peachy has written her version of "Lady of Shalott" that is archived under poetry on the harem fanfic site. Here's a tiny excerpt:He fought the web, he fought the gloom,
He walked like lightning into doom,
And horror fell belike his tomb,
While monstrous smoke rose like a fume,
And night fell over Orodruin.
Out flew the web and floated wide;
But Sam’s heart crack’d at Frodo’s side;
“Don’t go where I can’t follow,” cried
he, weeping for all lost. And Niphredil has written a version of Belle Dame Sans Merci, whith Frodo as the knight palely loitering and the Ring as the Belle Dame - I *know* this was posted in the harem thread, but that one's such a mastodont by now, so it's difficult to find one specific post in there. The search function doesn't really help, by text or by poster name, when the posts are so numerous. But I know it's in there, somewhere! And it's very good!

Have a nice weekend, everyone! :)

Blossom, please check your PM box :) !

Whiteling--congrats on the avatar! That's a nice choice, too.

shadow-I have several good memories of my parents (my Dad was a big LOTR fan at the time) taking me to The Hobbit Hole restaurant in Houston (this would have been early '70's). It was actually shaped and decorated, inside and out, like a hobbit hole. It wasn't as nice as Bag End in the movie, but still pretty impressive (my Dad will vouch for me:)). Inconspicuously, there were small framed drawings that I later learned were Alan Lee &/or John Howe illustrations. The Hobbit Hole served health food type sandwiches with names like Gandalf, Withywindle, etc.

This summer my husband and I checked into it and found the Hobbit Cafe. We went and learned it was the same establishment, but had been moved to another (larger) location. The new location is still somewhat cozy but is not shaped like a hobbit hole:(. In addition to the small drawings there are large movie posters, action figures for sale and life-sized stand-up (2D) hobbits. The one really nice thing was the multiple conversations I overheard (ok, eavesdropped on, while wandering around looking at pictures and posters) about the book and movie. It reminded me of a college town coffee shop, gone somewhat commercial.

Any Houstonians ever been to the original Hobbit Hole?

Edit: Very, very nice avatar, whiteling. Congratulations!


Had a bit of a Deep Impact flashback last night. Went out to an observatory north of the city where they had a special Mars viewing. When I got there, a group of students were setting up their own telescopes outside the observatory, looking at star charts, etc. A woman and her maybe-10-year-old daughter were behind me in line, and the woman asked the girl, "Do you know why they're using red lights? Remember, Grandpa explained that to us?" I wanted to stick my hand in the air and jump up and down yelling, "I know! I know!" :p

Before anyone thinks they missed something, I didn't learn about the red light from the movie itself--I learned about that from the critique of the movie at badastronomy.com, where an astronomer talks about the science in various space-related movies, telling what they got right and what they got wrong. He says that in Deep Impact's opening scene, they get almost everything right. The stars they're identifying are right, etc. And the students' use of penlights to look at their charts is correct--except that they should be using red light instead of regular white light because your eyes have to adjust to the darkness again after you look at something under white light (even from a penlight). He gives the movie leeway on this, as he says it would be hard to see the actors' faces in red light, and he could understand why the movie would find that important. (He said most astronomers would create the red light through the "high-tech method of covering the end of the penlight with red cellophane." :D )

Once again, evidence of how educational it is to be an Elijah Wood fan :) . BTW, the badastronomy.com site is pretty funny, as well as educational. The only thing I have against the astronomer who writes it is that he would rather have seen less of Leo's storyline because it was boring :rolleyes: . Of course, as we know, if that storyline had been emphasized as much as it should have been, it would have been much more emotionally engaging ;) .

Originally posted by peaceweaver
I was walking back to my car in downtown Chicago today, and unexpectedly encountered (for the first time!) the Frodo Bus Stop billboard! I had seen both the Aragorn and Gandalf posters, and had concluded that New Line hadn't made one of Frodo. Imagine my surprise to see a larger than life size image of Frodo from TTT in living color staring at me from the wall of the bus stop! It was heart attack Frodo, no less! :eek: Nearly gave me a heart attack!

But I'm not complaining!
Ah, another reason to visit downtown Chicago. Excuses were much easier to come by when I lived in Dubuque. I kinda miss being able to run over for a weekend now and then. Our bus stop billboards here advertise things like "Make Money Working at Home." :rolleyes:


Regarding the rest of this post, I'm beginning to think we should forget about the current movie about Francis, which is going to cover all of Francis's life and be basically religious. Instead, some accomplished angst maven(s) could put a screenplay together focusing on the earlier part of Francis's life, which would have time for all the angsty stuff the current movie will have to leave out. We'd go far enough into his life to have an uplifting ending, of course, but that could be done easily while still ending the movie before he's tonsured (i.e., has the hair shaved off the top of his head--I somehow have the feeling that wouldn't go over real well...). And, of course, we could leave out most of the singing...

Re: Love interest for Francis of Assisi (now there's a phrase I never thought I would ever write.) We must remember that a life of Francis would have to explore his life before his conversion! If only to enhance the drama of his renunciation of worldly pleasures. The possibilities are staggering!
In a number of ways... It's true we don't have many details about precisely how wild his youth was, so a movie could go pretty far before being accused of contradicting known historical fact. Wouldn't want to introduce Clare in that role, though; she would have been a young child at that point. So someone would have to be invented. But I'd hope a movie would show any relationship as an actual love interest (even if immature), rather than having Francis "using" women in any way--he seems to have never been a mean kid, just the type who runs around with the "in" crowd (and very likely headed up the "in" crowd most of the time he was part of it--I could see Elwood in that role very easily :) ).

Like a lot of saints, Francis talked about what a terrible sinner he'd been before his conversion. But the professor who wrote this particular book has a rather angst-friendly opinion about that (I've heard her give a few lectures on Francis and/or Clare, besides reading her book). She believes we moderns all too easily jump to the conclusion that sex is involved whenever we hear the word "sinful"; most people earlier in history didn't think that way. IMVHO, that's also the main reason no one had a problem with the eroticism of "Teresa in Ecstasy" until the 1800's (as noted in the text at the site Brunhild linked to).

Anyway, the point being that even if Francis did have an "active sex life" before his conversion (which we don't know, one way or the other), he probably wasn't referring to that when he talked about having been a sinner--because in those days that wouldn't have been considered "the worst thing you could do." She thinks it's much more likely that he was referring to having killed people--which he almost certainly would have done during his time as a soldier.

This would have been up-close-and-personal, down-and-dirty Medieval war. And the enemy wasn't some faceless foreigner made non-human through propaganda--it was your neighbor down the road in the next city-state. The war Francis was in was fought over the placement of the "property line" between two cities, so we really are talking "nextdoor neighbor." Are we seeing some good angst potential here? Possibly even moreso because it's historically accurate? (Kind of boggles my mind, at least, to think of St. Francis of Assisi sticking a sword into someone as he looks into his face--possibly even someone he knew, since he traveled around a bit selling his father's cloth goods--and I'm betting that wasn't in Sheryl's Marvel comic book!)

Want to make it even more interesting? According to property-ownership records discovered within the last decade or so--new stuff, historically speaking, Francis's father would have owned some of the land being fought over. Most men of his father's age and position would have considered it their duty to go into battle themselves, but his father stayed home... Happily sent his son, though. (Well, he did buy him fancy armor...)

Kind of starts to give a background to Francis's post-conversion absolute pacifism and rejection of owning property (to say nothing of disowning his father).

BTW--it was asked earlier--the name of the book I've been talking about is Francis: a Novel and the author is Joan Mueller. You can buy it online. I will say--as much as I like this woman and as much as I respect her historical acumen (both of which I do!)--she is not a very good novelist :o . She's written a number of scholarly books on Francis and Clare, and IMHO she's much more "at home" in that kind of writing. I can see how her book could give great background for a movie, because she really understands the culture of Francis's time and does wonderful descriptions of things. (After she describes Francis's fancy Italian armor as he lovingly inspects it piece by piece, let me tell you I'd love to see "someone" in it! :p .) But a riveting storyteller she's not.

Luscious, wonderful, gorgeous pics!! Thank you, Ainon!!

O... M... E...! :eek: :D For anyone who's not completely avoiding RotK spoilers, there's a great opportunity for international research collaboration over in the "Official RotK Spoilers" thread. Are the action figures pictured on this page: http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=163861#post163861 actually available anywhere? Not that I'd want a set... ROTFLMAO!!

There are RotK book spoilers on that page, but nothing new for anyone who knows the basic story--well, except for these action figures! Never before seen, for sure :p !

And IMHO this is very on-topic. We're talking about something that's supposed to look like Elijah, FES!


-------

Abbreviation guide:
On Tolkien discussion boards: OME = Oh, my Eru!
On normal discussion boards: OMG = Oh, my God!
On Tolkien discussion boards: FES = for Eru's sake!
On normal discussion boards: FGS = (well, you get the idea)

Note for those who haven't read the Sil[marilion] -- see how I snuck that one in ;) ? :
The Supreme Being in Tolkien's cosmos is called Eru (The One), or sometimes Iluvatar (The Father). Somehow it seems a bit less like swearing to use the name of a subcreated god :p .

Sheryl here I am to answer your question, and I’m only 4 days late!!!

You asked about the DVD release Down Here. It was at the same time as the rest of the world (for once :rolleyes: ) The cinema release schedule is the thing that is all topsy-turvy. I have my copy, and I’ve managed to watch it once plus the extras a couple of times.

It was excellent seeing it again. Like you, though, I’m sorry I didn’t see it more on the big screen while I had the chance, just to get the sweep of the imagery and immerse myself in Middle-earth. DVDs are great for critical viewing (the zoom, slow motion and pause functions do get a good work out), but there is So Much of this story, and it’s bliss to see it on a great big screen. (With Great Big Sound.)

I have to commend everyone for the recent discussion on Osgiliath, and the sequence of emotions struggling within Frodo as he is tormented, teased and almost taken by the Ring. Also the ‘It’s mine’ scene, and the way Sam’s character has taken a somewhat abrupt, questioning turn. And yet, I don’t’ think it’s so far removed from real-life to take it away completely from book Sam. I think, amongst many things said, Prim’s description of her anxiety about her little boy captures it exactly. (I hope he's fully recovered now, Prim.)

I wish I could add more here, but time is pressing, and really everyone has already articulated it much better than I could. I spend so much time nodding at my computer screen in agreement I’m beginning to resemble one of those, what to they call them, bobble heads (?)

I have been away for work, and away from regular computer access, so I actually have a couple of weeks of Faculty work to catch up on, so just quickly:

Would you believe I took notes! I hope these make sense now…

Ainon I loved your account of LOTR under the stars. Well, under the clouds. Sounds like fun. I’ve seen FOTR and TTT back to back (in a comfortable cinema, I might add) and it was an incredible experience. FOTR remains absolute magic, and TTT benefited from the cumulative emotional effect.

Hello nurse/kuduk, nice to see you again. It’s great reading the book out loud to a small child – I’ve recently finished reading it with my young son. They have the most, how shall I say, direct way of viewing things.

Originally posted by Maeglian
… I shall remember for a long time the emotions I had when seeing the "Pieta" and "The Poster”

Amen to that. And I’d add the recent picture of the four hobbits, which made me gasp and jump out of the ‘Net so I could recover. A very powerful image

Hob mom - screencapping genius! Long have I wandered amongst the wondrous imagery you have provided.

Congratulations tg! Frodo lives indeed!

Mariole said:

“So let me be honest and say that I'm looking for reassurance. I am greatly looking forward to ROTK because I want to see more Frodo Frodo Frodo -- I really love this guy!”

Me too! Me too! I have seen FOTR more than 2 dozen times, and TTT quite a few as well, and I have yet to watch the film all the way through without focusing primarily on Frodo. I have managed to look across at Sam sometimes, but not much.

CONGRATULATIONS FACULTY ON 4,000 POSTS!

Brunhild, I loved the Faculty Gazette, and then you topped that with ‘The One Ring’!

Welcome Alyon :D

Sheryl, that is a brilliant ‘Frodo with sword at someone’s throat analysis’.

Mariole said: “This frame has always been filled with ‘movie magic’ to me, which must be why I so enjoy looking at it. I have visited this view time and again. Thank you, sterno-cleido-mastoid.”

I’ll say Amen to that too. I can’t take my eyes off that…sterno-cleido …thing.

You’re correct. I am overwhelmed by the knowledge of Faculty members, and their ability to discuss lines on cheeks with wit and intelligence. I am learning new things every day! Thank you to Mariole and to Sheryl for the fascinating outline of … lines.

Blossom, I hope Holly continues to improve.

Like Whiteling I also find myself in the dizzy realms of being a no-longer-junior Member, and I’m eligible for an avatar picture all of my own. Decisions, decisions! (Thanks to tg for the tutorial, I’ll try and put it into effect tomorrow!)

Now I’m caught up. Now I have good intentions of staying that way.

{{{Faculty}}}

********ROTK (book) spoiler***************










Today I read the following (RoTK, Mount Doom, after Sam 'realizes' that he no longer has to worry about provisions for the trip home because there will *be* no trip home):

"But even as hope died in Sam, or seemed to die, it was turned to a new strength. Sam's plain hobbit-face grew stern, almost grim, as the will hardened in him, and he felt through all his limbs a thrill, as if he was turning into some creature of stone and steel that neither despair nor weariness nor endless barren miles could subdue."





********end RoTK book spoiler *********






and it reminded me so much of Narya's post about a possible explanation for relief on Frolijah's face during the ring-offering in Osgiliath.

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
What I see in his face as his eyes start to close and the ring approaches his finger is not 'pleasant' relief, but the incredibly painful relief someone feels when something they fear and have been resisting is about to happen or come true. It's not that they WANT it to happen - it's that they no longer have to anticipate or worry about it; the uncertainty about it has been removed. So while they do not welcome it, and are far from glad (indeed, may be deeply grieved), the relief is for the end of the waiting; the end of the uncertainty; the end of the fight to make it NOT happen.


Although with Frodo it is (control, fear, pain, exhaustion, pull) RELIEF, then anger/hate, shock, despair (with nuances of a half a dozen other emotions) but with Sam it is (worry, fear, disbelief, acceptance), RELIEF and determination (with maybe a few other emotions). I never realized there were several kinds of non-pleasant or slightly-pleasant relief.


It's good to see you estella rose!

Those are hilarious action figures in the ROTK spoiler thread.
I wonder at what point in the story Frodo would be holding aloft a sheathed Sting? Oops, that sounds vaguely dirty.:o

Hi to estella rose :) :) .

kuduk--wonderful parallel between the two characters. Although, as you said, the emotions are different, they do seem to have something of the same effect.

When I was making screencaps from the rare Malaysian collector's edition of TTT ;) , I said something about realizing that Osgiliath would have to be taken in "small bites." I've been chewing on one of them for the last couple of days--Frodo's attack on Sam, from when he first draws his sword to when he's definitely backing away.

I have gone beyond, "How does he do it?" to "I must be imagining things, because no one could be this good." :eek: In fact, I'm having some deja vu at the moment--seems to me I got this excited about a scene in FotR and was told by others that what I was seeing was just coincidence (can't remember the scene or the circumstances :confused: ). But what I saw here was 159 frames--and all through them the "upper hand" in the internal battle going from the Ring, to Frodo, back to the Ring, back to Frodo...

Just takes a few seconds on screen, of course. Reminds me of when I was just starting to screencap and wanted to get a "representative" pic of Frodo while he was staring at the Ring during the argument at the end of the Council. There was no representative moment; Elijah's face was changing all the time. (My first awakening to the frequent need for series of screencaps :p .) In these Osgiliath shots, you can add what he's doing with the sword to what he's doing with his face.

I'm not going to get into a lot of detail, because I wouldn't know where to start! Of course, there are a lot of "signals" we can read now that we wouldn't have caught a couple of years ago--and I'm still learning more--the recent discussion here of the differences between the time Frodo holds Sting at Gollum's throat and when he holds it at Sam's was very helpful.

This gets back to the question I occasionally ask myself--If you can only see these expression changes on screencaps, what good are they to the "normal" movie viewer (I put "normal" in quotes because otherwise, of course, it would imply that we're not normal :eek: )? But I'm sticking with my comparison to the brushstrokes on a painting. Each brushstroke adds to the cumulative effect, even if people looking at the painting don't analyze each brushstroke (but, you know, some people do analyze paintings that way--so maybe we're not so abnormal after all ;) ). It would be obvious--I hope--to casual moviegoers that Frodo's fighting with the Ring during this episode, but it's the small things that add up to tell them that and to show it realistically.

I may have bit off more than I can chew before October--but I'll have at least some of this on the website by then. It's hard to even talk about it without the pics right here.

One minor point--that scene has the most beautiful, elegant, and graceful dropping of a sword that I've ever seen... pure poetry. And, naturally, you can tell it's exactly the way it would have "really" happened. :)

I hear what you're saying, tg, about not being able to find a representative screen cap of a particular scene. Sometimes it's frustrating, because I can't get just the right view. It's as if all those fleeting expressions together make a glorious synergy, something that defies being broken down into easily chunked, displayable parts. My overall impression of a scene may never be captured in a frame. It's too complex. But I feel it when I see it. Boy, do I feel it. *happy sigh*

Mariole looks to the left, and to the right. Nodding heads as far as the eye can see. She concludes that she must be normal, or she wouldn't be finding this wonderful agreement. She thumbs her nose at the rest of the world, and contentedly ambles off.

I love the sword-dropping scene. So much eloquence without saying a word.

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__2_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__14_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__18_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__19_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__21_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__22_.jpg http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/PDVD51__26_.jpg

Why was Sam attacked in the first place?

Was Frodo simply mad and tired at Sam's constant whining or was he under the influence of the Ring?

Maybe Frodo got in touch with his Inner Self, and his Beserker Rage sized Temper came out? Notice how powerful his remorse is when he hurt Sam.

It might have been sudden, but would Sam have had it in him to punch Frodo out if he hit him first. I would think he would be able to do this. :D

What would Frodo say or do if this happened? Imagine the loo on his face then. :D :eek:

I love the sword-drop. He doesn't throw it or even really drop it. He just loosens his grip and it falls. Then he closes his fingers again as if it's still there. Did it take that long for his brain to register that he'd loosened his grip a bit too much? Totally and completely "out of it"--exactly as it should be... And then that tiny bit of relief (as in the final pic Hobmom posted) before he's "come to" enough to realize everything that's happened--all he knows is that the battle's over, at least for the moment (IMHO).

Edit: I really, really wasn't going to publish any updates until all the October additions were finished, but, gee, it's just so nice to feel useful again :p ! Here's the sword fall with the whole sword included ;) (and, yes, it does look pretty funny if you scroll it backwards :) ): http://www.frodolivesin.us/id193.htm



Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
...was he under the influence of the Ring?
Yeah, that's rather the idea behind the entire scene.

Maybe Frodo got in touch with his Inner Self, and his Beserker Rage sized Temper came out? Notice how powerful his remorse is when he hurt Sam...
Aha--now I've got a question for you, SCS (or anyone else who might know): Where did the idea of a "berserker" come from in the first place? Did Stephen Donaldson think it up, or did he "borrow" it from someone else*? But don't worry, it's not something you'll run into with Tolkien--whenever a character of his goes berserk, there's a perfectly logical explanation for it :p ! (...Here's hoping PJ stays the course.)



*Stephen Donaldson spoiler for anyone who might be reading or thinking of reading his Thomas Covenant books







*Not that I'm questioning Stephen Donaldson's creativity. For some reason I prefer heroes who don't rape and murder their daughters (when they're not berserk), but he's certainly original :( ).







End of Stephen Donaldson spoiler

The sword falls as beautifully as its master does. But not so often :D :).

tgshaw--"Berserk" comes from the source frequented by Tolkien himself :p. Berserkr is an Old Norse word denoting a warrior consumed by the frenzy of battle. Its literal meaning is "bear shirt"--it was believed that if a warrior put on a bear-skin shirt he would gain the power of the bear. Beorn from The Hobbit is a descendant of this legend, too. --- The word had been used to describe an insanely violent person long before Stephen Donaldson was born. According to Merriam-Webster, it dates back to 1818.

And I thought the whole "berserker" thing only had to with Wolverine. :p I gotta broaden my angsty horizons ... although tg's little spoiler piece there does give me cause for concern. :eek:

I love the sword-drop too. That was what I used to watch for, when seeing the movie on the big screen. Somehow I'd tear my eyes away from Frodo's face to watch the way he just lets go of that sword.

Hobmom, your pics are mind-blowing stupefingly angstheavenly. :k

Mariole

It's as if all those fleeting expressions together make a glorious synergy, something that defies being broken down into easily chunked, displayable parts. My overall impression of a scene may never be captured in a frame. It's too complex. But I feel it when I see it. Boy, do I feel it. *happy sigh*


Mariole, that's such a precisely accurate way to put it. Oh yes, definitely nodding with you here. I've been kinda doing this too with a couple of other movies I'm watching right now. Uh. Well, yeah. Other movies. With an actor who is not EW. Heh. I'm mentioning it though because I was listening to the director's commentary for that movie and found out that on one occasion when I thought something happening on screen looked too painful - well, that was because it was real. A little (not serious) accident, and the footage was used in the movie. Anyway, to bring this back on topic, I'm kinda revisiting the discussions back when, related to EW's 'stabbed by wraith blade' acting in FotR and how 'real' that looked. I'm saying the obvious, obviously :D but yup, there is a discernable difference indeed between acting real, and really for real.


Whiteling - congratulations! wonderful choice for your avatar!

Great to see you again, estella. :k

Glad to hear the kiddo's all well now, Prim. :)

Oh, and thanks tg, for the Francis of Assisi script outline. ;) I'm off to check out your sword-drop page now.

From tg
Where did the idea of a "berserker" come from in the first place? Did Stephen Donaldson think it up, or did he "borrow" it from someone else? This is one time we notice the varied background and cultural multitude of the Faculty. :) "Going berserk", and the term "berserker" is so much a part of my cultural heritage (vikings and all that) that I wouldn't even have thought to explain it if I ever used it. Not that going berserk is something I personally get up to much. :rolleyes: But it's certainly a commonly used term over here. (I haven't read Donaldson so have no idea how he uses the term in his writing). OTOH, I am woefully ignorant about all these saints that keep popping up in the discussion. Clare, for instance; - I don't know who she is. :o

From Tgshaw:

But I'm sticking with my comparison to the brushstrokes on a painting. Each brushstroke adds to the cumulative effect, even if people looking at the painting don't analyze each brushstroke (but, you know, some people do analyze paintings that way--so maybe we're not so abnormal after all ;) ).




Tg, I love your "brushstroke comparison". I often do paintings in watercolours (do you say so in English?). I put one layer of colour on top of the other. It's a very slow process - you have to wait until every coat is completely dry but with every new layer the picture deepens and the colours start to glow. The finished paintings done in this special technique do not show single brushstrokes, the effect results mainly from the "multilayeredness". Compared to acting technique I'd say there are actors who only do doodles, others who paints with oil colours or coloured pencils... IMHO EW is a "watercolour painter", and the "multilayeredness" of emotions he expresses at the same time gives his performance this incredible depth.

Mariole, I'm still nodding :) !

Brunhild, many thanks for your explanation of "berserker" - very interesting!

Estella rose, good luck with choosing and creating your avatar and have fun ;) !

Maeglian, I'm sure, Tg can give you a detailed vita of St Clare :) !

(Pst, ainon and Bridget, I'll watch "Shawshank Redemption" in the next few days, I've got it on video... perhaps I'll second your subliminal campaign :D !)

Donaldson uses "berserker" for a specifc type of creature that he invented (as Tolkien does with "orc," "troll," etc.) rather than for a human who's gone berserk (even a mutated one :p ). What I was hoping to learn from SCS (who seems at least to be a bit younger than me :) ) is if there are other fantasy authors--or possibly RPGs--out there using the word for that specific purpose. Sorry I wasn't more clear :rolleyes: -- yes, I do understand the use of the word in regard to humans, but thanks for all the interesting information :) ; I hadn't realized it was so "Nordic" in origin.

--------------

whiteling--Yes, English uses the word "watercolours." Of course, in American it's "watercolors" :p [sometimes written as two words]. I'm not artistic enough to come up with a parallel to a certain type of painting, and that one sounds very nice. Thanks.

-------------

ainon--regarding "really real" acting--because of the "depth of pain" shown, I've always assumed the take used in TTT of Aragorn kicking an orc helmet when he thinks Merry and Pippin are dead is the one in which Viggo actually broke some toes. PJ said afterward he'd thought it was just really intense acting :rolleyes: . Well, whatever works, I guess :p .

Originally posted by tgshaw
that scene has the most beautiful, elegant, and graceful dropping of a sword that I've ever seen... pure poetry. And, naturally, you can tell it's exactly the way it would have "really" happened. :) [/B]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brunhild
[B]The sword falls as beautifully as its master does. [QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hobmom
I love the sword-dropping scene. So much eloquence without saying a word.
[QUOTE]

What they said!! :) Bobbing along with you all :)

I think the fall (more of an inner-collapse than a fall) and sword drop are my favorite part of TTT. The timing and sound are almost as good as the acting. OT: My all time favorite sound bite is FOTR after Gandalf's fall, with Aragorn running up the stairs, the music swelling and the arrows flying. *sniff*

Lovely watercolor analogy whiteling!

Regarding true pain vs. acted pain. Due to a death in the family, as many of you know, I've had the unfortunate chance to see some real-life angst lately and it strikes me as being not only not as pretty but not as *expressive* as superbly acted angst by EW. He somehow makes it REAL and incredibly expressive of the inner life of Frodo at that moment (while being beautiful to watch).

Hobmom-may I use your eloquence quote as my signature? Let me know if you want me to remove it. Thanks for the beautiful screencaps!

Kuduk- No don't mind at all! Thanks. That make two times I've been sigged!

Originally posted by ainon
And I thought the whole "berserker" thing only had to with Wolverine. :p

Yeah, I thought the same thing.:o :p I haven't heard the word used in any other fantasy/RPG/etc., tg - don't know if anyone else has.

Loving the sword-drop discussion.:cool: Thanks for the pictures, Hobmom and tgshaw - yeah, I was far too amused by scrolling backwards and watching the sword float back up into Frodo's hand.:o :D

P.S. Love the new avatar, ainon.;) *giggles madly*

Originally posted by kuduk
I think the fall (more of an inner-collapse than a fall) and sword drop are my favorite part of TTT. The timing and sound are almost as good as the acting...
I don't know quite how they do this, but even though we hear everything, the sound of the sword dropping is done in such a way that, IMHO, we're told it's the first sound Frodo has heard since the beginning of the Nazgul attack (when he can't hear Sam)--except for those wingbeats :eek: (geez, that sound spooks me out more than anything I see in the movie, especially during the scene in the marshes :eek: ).

Regarding true pain vs. acted pain. Due to a death in the family, as many of you know, I've had the unfortunate chance to see some real-life angst lately and it strikes me as being not only not as pretty but not as *expressive* as superbly acted angst by EW. He somehow makes it REAL and incredibly expressive of the inner life of Frodo at that moment (while being beautiful to watch).
It was during the scene at the Black Gate that my inner purist piped up with "Yeah, that's how scared and frustrated Frodo was, but he never would have shown it like that," and I realized that, for me anyway, that's exactly what Elijah's Frodo does--lets me see inside Frodo. I hadn't thought about it in regard to real-life angst, but isn't it interesting that we connect so well with his shows of emotion? IMVHO, in Elijah's acting we recognize the way the emotion feels rather than the way it looks externally. Even the beauty of it says something about the true nature of human grief and sorrow--the "one tear" scene speaks to how we feel when we lose someone we love, even if we don't look that "pretty" doing it. Very fitting for Tolkien, IMVHO, as it shows human emotion with true dignity--I'll have to reflect on this a bit, as it's the first time I've ever thought about it... Thanks for sharing it, kuduk.

What I meant by Beserker Rage was the look in Frodo's eyes when he attacks Sam. What girl wouldn't be frightened by tht look?

Also is Sting anything like King Aurthor's Excalibur, the "Singing Sword?" Isn't Sting supposed to be "different" from an "ordinary" sword? If it is, then it would have certainly dropped from Frodo's hand, because it wouldn't do Evil in a Rightious hand, would it? :confused:

Well, I've always liked the sound of the word 'berserk', but I guess that's beside the point. :p So is there some way to extrapolate and say Wolverine has Nordish roots? :D Oh, and thank you, Bridget, and my compliments to your new avatar! Our avatars go together wonderfully, don't they?

Originally posted by tgshaw
ainon--regarding "really real" acting--because of the "depth of pain" shown, I've always assumed the take used in TTT of Aragorn kicking an orc helmet when he thinks Merry and Pippin are dead is the one in which Viggo actually broke some toes. PJ said afterward he'd thought it was just really intense acting :rolleyes: . Well, whatever works, I guess :p .

LOL. Well, we do see Viggo anguishing with great emotion there, and I suppose if I were the director it wouldn't immediately occur to me either to interrupt that to ask, "Is it just me, or was that kick a little on the hard side? Broke some toes, did you? Are you in pain? Or is that one heck of an emoting roll you're on? Oh. Emoting? Sorry, carry on, no, no, go ahead, don't mind me .... " :D


I hadn't thought about it in regard to real-life angst, but isn't it interesting that we connect so well with his shows of emotion? IMVHO, in Elijah's acting we recognize the way the emotion feels rather than the way it looks externally.

Thanks for sharing, kuduk, and well said, tg. :)

The scene in that other movie had the character being beaten in the face; I'd seen the actor in many other movies exhibiting incredible range *and* providing very well appreciated angst (hey, look, I am what I am, right? ;) ) but in this particular instance, the first punch to the face had me wincing in a genuine 'oh my goodness' way, as opposed to genuine angst-appreciative 'oh ... my' way.

all those in thread who are not angst-appreciators start inching their way to the door ....

That first punch had been a real accidental punch to the actor's face. He didn't break out of character so that footage was used, and edited in with further beatings the character received. It's hard to pinpoint just how it's possible to tell the difference while watching the scene; I'll go with the fact that the actor himself was totally caught by surprise and his unsuppressed reaction was definitely as real as you can get.

Or maybe my sick Angst Appreciation skills are a tad too fine-tuned. :o :p

Right. Now that everyone is totally seriously disturbed :p let's revisit some lighter (and somewhat out-of-focus) sword moments. ;)

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/93723/Capture_11.jpg http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-6/93723/Capture_12.jpg


Hope you enjoy the movie, whiteling!

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
What I meant by Beserker Rage was the look in Frodo's eyes when he attacks Sam. What girl wouldn't be frightened by tht look?
Thanks, SCS--you never know what's going to spark an enlightening discussion around here :p .

One thing that's struck me is how bestial Frodo's expression is there. It reminded me of the post during the discussion of the "mine... my own" scene about Frodo not looking quite hobbit-like just before he turns on Sam. At issue there was the nose-wrinkling. And, boy, is there nose-wrinkling during the Osgiliath attack! Which slowly goes away as Frodo regains control. So, out of due attention to the research at hand (a.k.a. abject curiosity), I went back and watched Frodo's attack on Gollum. Even when Frodo's at his full display of anger, there's nary a nose wrinkle in sight.

I hope the attack on Sam is the scene where PJ told Elijah he didn't "believe" his hatred and had him do it over again--I don't know that I'd want to see it any more believable than that! But IMHO it's really interesting that Frolijah (not quite sure where to draw the line between character and actor here) had to become "subhuman" in order to express it. Exactly right, though--of course ;) --to show the Ring's hatred. IMHO another case of the Ring having to knock Frodo out of the picture before it can act on its own.

Also is Sting anything like King Aurthor's Excalibur, the "Singing Sword?" Isn't Sting supposed to be "different" from an "ordinary" sword? If it is, then it would have certainly dropped from Frodo's hand, because it wouldn't do Evil in a Rightious hand, would it? :confused:
Sting is "different" because it was made by elven smiths, as are the swords Merry and Pippin were given by Galadriel in the FotR SE (referring only to the movie, here). One quality the elvish smiths could produce is one we've seen in action a couple of times already, in FotR--glowing blue when orcs are close. Depending on how much the RotK movie sticks to the book, there's another quality of elven swords we may see a couple of times--just being a heckuva lot better than swords made by mortals; they can cut through some things the mortal-made swords can't.

But IMHO this is another example of Tolkien's subtle use of "magic" (is it magic or is it skill?). Sting isn't sentient--it doesn't glow blue because it "knows" orcs are around, but because the elves built that quality into it.

Now, what PJ will do is hard to say. I'm hoping he doesn't use Sting in the same way he did Frodo's elven cloak. In the book, the elven cloaks hide the wearer because the elves make them in such a way that they blend in so well with any kind of natural surroundings--again, because the elves have the skill and knowledge necessary to do that, not because of any overt magic as appears to be used in the movie. I know a lot of people disagree with me on this, and see the way the cloak works in the movie as part of that ability to blend in with the surroundings, but it just went a bit too far for me.

If the RotK movie has Sting "deciding" or "refusing" to do anything, it will definitely be beyond the bounds of what Tolkien wrote.

As with any good fantasy writer, Tolkien's system of magic has to be understood within the particular world the author has created. Just because Arthur's sword acts in a certain way (in a certain version of his legend), that doesn't mean a good magical sword in a different story can't be completely different--as long as that author sticks to his or her own "rules." Each fantasy world you enter is going to have magic that operates somewhat differently than it does in any other world, all based on what the author decides to do.

Tolkien tends to downplay magic more than a lot of fantasy writers do, partly because he wants to emphasize the nonmagical efforts his characters have to rely on. Even though the Osgiliath scene isn't in the book, IMHO the attack on Sam stays true to Tolkien in this: it's Frodo who keeps Sting from killing Sam (or, I should say, who keeps the Ring from using Sting to kill Sam). Frodo's will is battling against the Ring's will throughout the entire thing, and Frodo's will is strong enough to eventually control the outcome. But that interior battle takes absolutely everything he's got. He drops Sting afterward because he's totally and completely spent, physically and mentally, not because of any magic in Sting.

Observations on Try Seventeen/All I want

I’ve been thinking about this little flm (probably waaay too much :p) and want to offer some thoughts about it now that it has been released widely. Be Warned: Spoilers be here!

Given the basic plot, this movie might be classed as a “how will he get her to bed” flick. But I thought it was much more than that. It certainly is a “coming of age” film, which in our culture often means initiation into sexual experience. There is definitely that element here, but there is also more. It is about self-knowledge and self-actuation. Jones’ character at the beginning of the film is bland and generic (didn’t someone say this is an Adam Sandler-type role? :eek: ) Jones has no knowledge or understanding of his life, his parentage, his prospects. He doesn’t stand up for himself, he is a follower of others’ habits and ideas, he says very little, except to his Mother over the phone. And he invents his life in scripted fantasies which no one reads. The first sentence in the film is addressed to him, “Are you lost?”

So this film is about him finding his place (the apartment) and then his identity, as much as it is about finding a girlfriend. Refreshingly, the main character’s experience is not only sexual in this film, nor is it only the trying on of adult behaviors like smoking :mad: and drinking, it is the experience of deep emotion—even pain. (Jane says to Jones about the photo she takes of his maced face that it looks like the first time he felt pain.) Jones doesn’t behave like your stereotypical randy young man: he wants experience that counts, not just experience for its own sake. He’s not looking for notches in his belt. Thus the unconsummated experience with Lisa.

Lisa is the flighty actress, shallow and “easy.” (is there some comment on the profession there?) By contrast, Jane is the feisty artist, complicated and distant. Who was it who pointed out that her car serves to symbolize the relationship between Jones and Jane? I really like that idea.

Jones is to a certain extent likened by the screenplay to Hamlet (the 2B speech). Like the Danish prince he thinks too much and acts too little, his father has gone missing and he blames his mother, there is a play within a play. I wouldn’t want to push this too far, now. ;) The dynamic between Jones and his mother is very interesting. He accuses her of crippling him, essentially, because she won’t tell him about his father. Poor Blanche.

There is some interesting color symbolism here. Blanche is colorless, like her name. (Although I thought Elizabeth Perkins was great in the role) She has been dominated by men throughout her life, is afraid to talk directly to her son, afraid of losing him (her “chance”) Jane is Red (her coat, her darkroom) and passionate. Jones, well, Jones is beige throughout most of the film. It is only toward the end that he begins to wear other colors. And only at the very end when he puts on the rich suede jacket (and becomes a leather-wearing biker of the sort both Jane and Brad fall for). That’s when Jones locks away his typewriter and his bagel delivering bellydancer, and begins to live in the world of experience rather than fantasy.

I would not argue that this film will withstand the test of time, but it is a cut above the usual teenage angst fare. And there are some howlingly funny moments: the immediate cut to a smug, smoking Jones after his night with Jane; just about any time Brad was on the screen; EW’s delivery of the line, “ You best say goodbye to those buttons, you no-armed son of a …”

I know some of my Faculty colleagues were less than impressed by EW’s performance , but he was supposed to be bland for a large portion of the film. And I’ve read reviews critical of the casting because of Wood’s size and youthful appearance. (I sure hope that people write decent scripts for him so that this issue goes away.) The director, like so many others, can’t resist the temptation to do close ups on EW’s face. But I was impressed with the physical nature of Wood’s performance: Jones’ oppressed body language at the beginning of the film, the slapstick falls and stumbles, and the gusto with which Jones shoots the absurd weapons in his more violent fantasies. In my opinion, Wood has great comic timing and should seek out more comic roles.

But then, I liked “North.” :)

Peaceweaver, I'm happy to read your comments about Try Seventeen, as I, too, found much to like about both the film and Elijah's performance. Some of his line deliveries were great, and I think he would do well in other comedies (I'd already decided that after seeing Chain of Fools, anyway).

I think my favorite parts of the movie were the scenes that Jones had with Brad and with his mother. He really had some chemistry with those two, and they played well off each other.

And I think they did a huge disservice to the film by renaming it something as bland as "All I Want." Talk about dooming it to anonymity! Besides, I thought one of the funniest moments in the film came with the revelation about what the title "Try Seventeen" referred to.

I really liked the film. But then, I liked Flipper. ;)

Nice to know that some people liked Try 17 and North. I agree that it's not a "teenage angst" film or an "Adam Sandler" comedy. IMHO, it resembles certain Woody Allen movies: A short sensitive guy dreams of becoming a writer and feels attracted to tall ladies who do not always belong to his age group :p. Of course, the hero is young (and good looking ;)), there are fewer one-liners and more physical action, but otherwise it's Manhattan gone Midwest.

Well, let's make it four in a row... I'd agree with what the first three have said :) . [And the only EJW movie I've really, truly disliked is, well, you know... ;) . I just think North and Flipper aren't as good as a lot of his other movies (and I liked Flipper better than several of them).]

I definitely agree that Try 17 isn't a typical teenage angst movie. In fact, it's almost an opposite of one, but not in such an obvious manner that you sit there thinking, "Oh, I see what they're doing..."

While most teenage "coming of age" movies show a kid moving out and away from family, facing life on his (or her) own for the first time, this one shows a kid settling down for the first time. He never mentions any friends from his previous life--the only person he seems to have had any kind of a relationship with is his mother. Some of what he types to his dad is connected with that--how he might stay in that apartment for a long time, and that he's "making new friends every day." Even that little smile he gets while watching the landlady clean the apartment before he moves in feels to me like the tiny beginning of a sense of belonging. (And, yes, that "Are you lost?" statement at the beginning--while he's sitting absolutely alone--says a lot.)

And definitely "ditto" to the remark about him wanting experiences that matter. Jane's statement about the photo looking as if it's the first time he's felt pain seemed a bit cliched to me when I first heard it, and I suppose it is in a way, but I also think it may be hinting that Jones has never really felt anything before, so everything he's feeling now he's feeling for the first time. Yes, he's "initiated" into sex, but before that he's initiated into caring deeply about someone which, from what we know about him, is something else he's never felt before. He's not upset about Jane going off with Steve because it means he won't be able to have sex with her (at least, not mostly), but because he thinks it's bad for her.

--Also "ditto" to EJW's great comic timing (which also shows up in The Faculty, IMHO). And "ditto, ditto" to thinking the name change is stupid--if they wanted to change it, with a movie as unusual as this they should have been able to come up with a more distinctive name; makes me suspect they want to hide the fact that it's not a typical teenage angst/sex movie.

Could say lots more (and I guess I did in the earlier discussion on this) but don't have time right now.

[BTW, I think the person who mentioned Adam Sandler meant it as something positive. ;) ]

:) :) :)

Happy Birthday tg!!

:) :) :)

Happy Birthday, tgshaw! :k

http://frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/film-images/film-frodosam12.jpg

two young and dashing party hobbits dropping in from frodoandsam.net to celebrate this joyous occasion. a little early, but they're eager.

:) :) :) :) :) :) :)


Thanks for the in-depth review, peaceweaver. Yeah, I meant Adam Sandler in a good way. Along with Ben Stiller (note though that I am referring to their better movies, and not stuff like 'Little Nicky'! :p ) and John Cusack (whom I love and adore and will watch in anything ... even if it had to be 'Serendipity'), among others, and certainly Woody Allen (who's too often too neurotic for me, but I won't diss a good time at the movies if he gives that) -- all of whom are very good in the type of work that they do. JMHVO, as a movie viewer. :)

Well, Flipper was cute!

http://frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/cast-images/cast-elijah-flipper02.jpg

:confused: :confused: :confused:

erm...tgshaw's profile says her birthday is December 31.

And the great K-D Birthday Minder says nothing about today being her birthday.

Not that I'm trying to stop the celebration or anything!;) :p

Anyway, it's good practice for Sept. 22 when we celebrate the Baggins Birthdays.:D

Carry on!:) :) :)

Originally posted by Goldenberry
erm...tgshaw's profile says her birthday is December 31.


Well, I know it's *sometime* around September because I started the Cathedral on her birthday last year. (She said helpfully. :p ) Plus I seem to remember that it's the same month as Frodo and Bilbo's (not, mind you, that I can usually tell you the date on that one, either, beyond, "September, October, in there somewhere..." - hey, I can't remember own kids' birthdays half the time!) So I buy it. :D

Happy Birthday, tgshaw!

A lemon birthday cake:

http://www.wagnersbakery.com/_Products/Cakes/Large/white_lrg.jpg

and some pumpkin cheesecake ('cause I'm wanting some, that's why!):

http://www.meals.com/imagesrecipes/28208s.gif

Actually, when I make pumkin cheesecake I don't swirl caramel on top, but, oh, well...

Sheryl

Originally posted by Goldenberry
:confused: :confused:

erm...tgshaw's profile says her birthday is December 31.

And the great K-D Birthday Minder says nothing about today being her birthday.

Not that I'm trying to stop the celebration or anything!;) :p

Anyway, it's good practice for Sept. 22 when we celebrate the Baggins Birthdays.:D

Carry on!:) :)
Well, this is a bit weird. After reading this, I checked the part of the control panel where I'd entered info, and it has my correct birthday (Sept. 18, 1954). But when I go in through the "members" page to my profile there, it says Dec. 31, 1969. The KD calendar does have it listed on Sept. 18. I'd always assumed those lists were automatically connected, but evidently not :confused: . If I could actually roll back the 15 years, I wouldn't mind switching :p . But I have enjoyed the feeling over the years that I'm kind of celebrating with the Baggins Boys :) .

Is this a mod-fixable mix-up? Not that it's a big problem, but I can see it would be a bit confusing. IIRC, the Dec. 31 date might have been a "default" the site used until you had your actual birthday entered into your profile, but I don't know why it hasn't changed.

---------

Sheryl--We must have been on the same wavelength. I brought bagels for everyone at the office this morning--with pumpkin cream cheese! It's just a step or two from there to pumpkin cheesecake, isn't it? :)

And thanks to ainon for the party hobbits, and estella rose for the greetings with her new pink-cheeked avatar :) .

--------

[Hmmm... wonder if I can do enough post-slutting to hit 1000 on my birthday ;) . My other celebration will be putting in some extra time at work. When my boss asked me today, I said, "Gee, I can't think of a better way to spend my birthday!" Only trouble is, my workaholic, literally-minded boss thought I was being serious! Not that it would have made any difference if I'd said something else. :rolleyes: ]

Is this a mod-fixable mix-up? Not that it's a big problem, but I can see it would be a bit confusing. IIRC, the Dec. 31 date might have been a "default" the site used until you had your actual birthday entered into your profile, but I don't know why it hasn't changed.

Sorry, tgshaw, but this is beyond my skill to heal.;) It's a bug in the vBulletin software - anyone born before a certain date automatically gets the Dec. 31 birthdate in their profile.

We know the truth, though!:D (We're starting the celebration a day early, then? Oh well - extra partying is *always* a good thing!:D )

Happy Birthday, tgshaw!!

http://thepusherrobot.perlmonk.org/chubs/images/other/birthdaytgshaw.jpg

Hmmm... wonder if I can do enough post-slutting to hit 1000 on my birthday ;) .

Taking the occasion into account, I'll pretend I didn't see that.;) Yeah, come on tg! You can totally do it!:D

:k

Now that the mystery is resolved:

Happy Birthday, tgshaw! (Tomorrow!)

If you just enter the day and month of your b-day and leave out the year, like I did ;) :D, your profile will show the correct day. I don't even know where this KD calendar resides.:rolleyes: Still computer-impaired in some respects, I guess!

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb
...anyone born before a certain date automatically gets the Dec. 31 birthdate in their profile.
Ah, so vBulletin stops counting at a certain point ;) . That's very considerate of it :p :p .

Thanks for trying and thanks for that beautiful gift :) !

Taking the occasion into account, I'll pretend I didn't see that.;) Yeah, come on tg! You can totally do it!:D

:k
Well, a couple here, two or three in the Trilogy forum, and maybe one in the Green Dragon... That doesn't sound too unreasonable, does it :) ?

Happy Birthday, tgshaw! :) :) :)

Oh, many many lovely cakes already - please try this nice Schwarzwaelderkirschtorte - it's delicious!!


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Torte.jpg

O Frabjous Day!

The Dean of the Faculty has a Birthday!!

Happy Birthday, tg!

And what a beautiful day it is here in the Midwest. Enjoy it!

Hoping for the best for our east coast colleagues...

Well, since everyone else has started the party early, I think I'll do the same even though there's yet an hour to go before the actual big day:

Happy birthday, tg!

Many happy returns!

And early congratulations on those 1.000 posts, too - you can do it, and soon! :)

Have a happy, happy birthday, TG! Hope you have a great day!

In other news:

I don't know how accurate this is, but it was just pointed out to me and I feel vaguely ill over it. So, naturally, I have to share. :p This is a link to the Oscar Watch forums:

Oscar Watch Forums (http://www.forums-oscarwatch.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4093)

I don't know where they get their information or whether it's true. :(

Bunnie, seeing who they'll promote as Lead Actress, I don't think I'll be losing sleep over this *quite* yet. Although the rest of it, now, that I *could* see. I would be interested in hearing Erendis's opinion on this, though, she's very knowledgable about the Oscar politicking of the movie industry. (Hey, this is on topic as long as we consider who's noticably absent there.)


New Line has started shipping the RotK posters. That means, soon enough I'll have The Poster ready for framing. I know that one just *needs* to go up on a wall here; there's no way I can't have it up. But this far all my LotR & Frodo stuff except books have been kept strictly on the other side of the PC monitor screen...... And, well; - I have a small challenge for the bright minds and keen brains in the Faculty:

What would be good and valid examples of calm, rational, unbiased, non-emotional, non-swoony reasons why that particular one simply needs to be *the* LotR poster on display?

I'm sure I could mention a whole *lot* of rational reasons like that, it's just that they keep slipping my mind. Especially when I look at The Poster. :o :rolleyes: :o

Now, Maeg, would that be *this* poster?

If so, who needs reasons? But you could rationalize that this poster features the most important character in the Trilogy, that it epitomizes that character's perserverance and sacrifice, and that it is an effective and affecting image.

But all you need to say is that it is beautiful.

Happy early B-day, tg!

Go 1000 go!

Happy Birthday, tg!

Hope you have a wonderful day, and that your boss is just as clueless about that as s/he appears to be about everything else.

Go, tg! 1,000 posts, yea! :D

If anyone is interested and doesn't already know. The original double sided 27x40 posters can be ordered seperately at hollywood dreams online. The Frodo and Sam poster is available without having to purchase the entire set. And the best part-they're cheap- $13.49 plus shipping.
Not sure about linking directly as they handle merchandise for R rated films as well but...


its a .com address ;)

Well, back to lurking.

Enai

Popping in to say that my official Try 17/All I Want dvd came today and you know what that means.....

New, bigger, better caps starting here....T17 Caps- New (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289094047)

Just getting started..... more to come. Hey! He's in every shot! What's a girl to do?:D

http://overthebrandywine.com/cakes/tg03.jpg

Tg - Will you reach the magic 1000th post today I wonder? It's a sure thing.

In the meantime: HAPPY BIRTHDAY Tg!!!

I thought a little collage might be appropriate. I did this one especially for you, and though I couldn't include all the pics I thought you would like, I think some of these are from your favourite Frodo moments so far.
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/FrodoTg.jpg

Hope you like it, and that it's not too angsty for your birthday - I couldn't resist sneaking a little 'Secret Sam Smile' in there at the bottom.:)

Sheryl always sends such lovely cakes. And that torte (I won't even TRY to SPELL, let alone SAY, it's full name) of Whiteling's look scrumptious. Oh, and Bridgett's even has a bow. Don't eat them all at once, Tg. Have a great birthday! :)

I don't seem to have posted much lately - RL and all that! I have managed to lurk now and again to absorb the brilliant thoughts, observations, screencaps etc that you ladies have delivered over the past week or so.

I loved the 'Sam-telling-Frodo-to-fight-it' discussion. I adore Movie Sam, I love the expression of hurt and dejection on his face when Frodo turns on him in the Gollum-catching-fish scene. I do sympathize with Sam, and understand the feelings and emotions he is experiencing, but at least he is in control of his own thoughts and actions. I adore Movie Frodo even more!!! And I find I sympathize with Frodo more in this scene, because he's so NOT in control of what he thinks, says or does. One minute he's rounding on his best friend, then he's apologizing, then he's rounding on him again. I love the way Elijah works through these conflicting emotions - it's not just the vocal delivery, it's the awesomely convincing expressions that cross his face - light and dark, and all shades of grey in between. Pity; anger; contrition; more anger; confusion - it's all there. Whiteling put it perfectly when she likened Elijah's performance to watercolour painting (an art form I have dabbled with myself) - it IS multi-layered, and it's difficult to see where one layer overlaps another, but certainly in Frolijah's case the end result is artistic, moving and beautiful.:)

Far too many more interesting points for me to remember or comment on - not that I could add anything worth saying to all of your insightful contributions.

Whiteling - Congratulations on your avatar. Great choice.

Welcome to Alyons Daughter.

Thanks to all who sent kind thoughts to Holly. She is much better, though she is spending today at the vet's undergoing tests to see if the problem has cleared up completely. We should have her back this afternoon. Can't wait.

Bye.

Happy Birthday, Tgshaw! You are less than half as old as a half decent old halfling :).

Maeglian--All other LotR posters were ridiculously cheesy so you had to settle on this one which was at least marginally compatible with the book :p.

That Oscarwatch forum post lost ANY credibility when it came to the bit about Liv Tyler as Best Lead Actress.:rolleyes: She probably has less screen time than Judi Dench had in Shakespeare in Love, for which she won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar! New Line wouldn't do this....would they?

I have come to terms with the fact that Elwood is not going to be promoted or nominated for Best Actor by telling myself that this is good, because it follows the path of the actor whose career I'd like to see Lij's parallel: Johnny Depp.

Peaceweaver, even though I loathed Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas, Depp's performance was fascinating!:p

Viggo turns in a good performance as Aragorn, but to me, Aragorn is a one-note tune compared with the richness of Frolijah's emotional symphony.

If anyone from ROTK wins an acting Oscar, it may well be the first time a character/actor who has been made into an action figure has been so honored!:D

I'm with Goldie on the Oscarwatch forum. The "you heard it here first" and insider tone contribute to its lack of credibility. Liv Tyler indeed.

That said, I still hope within my heart of hearts that the nominators surprise me and acknowledge the job that Elijah Wood has done in these movies. I have no expectation that he could possibly win , seeing as how this is a *fantasy* movie, and he is so *young* and all. But a nom would be nice...just not in the "supporting actor" catergory. :mad:

Oh yes, Goldie, I think Fear and Loathing inspires just that!:p

Blossom: what a lovely collage! :)

Hobmom: just had a peek at those new caps. :k You are a wizard!

Just popping in to say: Happy Birthday Tgshaw! and leave a little bit of Elijah behind.

http://hometown.aol.com/ghyste/images/littlebad.bmp

No...I didn't say a little bit of Elijah's behind :rolleyes:

Liv Tyler for Best Actress? After two films of pushing everyone for Best Supporting they finally decide to push someone for Best and it's Liv Tyler? There. is. no. God.

Liv Tyler for Best Actress? Well, imagine if Liv actually won?! That acceptance speech probably would be something else. Do you think it'd top Gwyneth Paltrow's? Inquiring minds want to know! :D ( Though by and large I like Liv's Arwen very much. Liv wasn't the one wrote the script or edited the film. )


tg, nice to see that you've given all those anguished, screaming, Ring-influenced Frodos a rest and have returned to happy, lovely party Fro as your avatar for your birthday. :)


Peaceweaver, yes that *is* The Poster. Thank you for the excellent argumentation you provided. :)
And thank you, Brunhild. Yes, I could see that work: "Yes, I know, that poster *is* a little.....uhm. But I did want a LotR poster, and RotK *is* the last chance, and well; - you should have seen the other posters!" Of course, if anybody wonders about those others, the Gollum one will be a perfect example, n'est-ce pas? And as for that "uhm" there; it's totally true, since I'm certain I'll go all non-verbal once I have that poster here.

OK. You all probably think I'm totally nutty about this. You're very probably right. :o :eek:

Happy Birthday, tg! Greetings from a fellow-Nebraskan;)
although I have since moved away, a piece of my heart remains

Wow--I feel kind of bad that I haven't had a chance to thank all for their greetings during the day, but it started early and ended late at work. I peeked in during the day a few times, but didn't want to start a post since I probably would have had to stop in the middle of it! BB, thanks for the link to the Oscar Watch article; I agree that I'm not going to give it a lot of respect, although I'll be surprised if the person who most deserves an Oscar from LotR gets nominated. Hobmom, haven't looked at the Try 17 pics yet, as I want to be a little less bleary-eyed when I do that :) . Got my notice from Amazon that my order was shipped yesterday, so I should have The War and, well, "All I Want" :rolleyes: before too long.

whiteling, your cake made my mouth water--and had me trying out my rudimentary German. I think I can figure out Black-[something]-cherry-cake, so I'm going to make a guess that "Waelder" is Forest?

Thanks to Ezzie and Blossom for the lovely piccies, and to Ghyste for the "little bit of Elijah" :p .

Maeg, yes, thought I'd pull out a happy Fro for today. I'm seriously low on avatars--only have enough for a few days--so I thought about putting anime Frodo back into action for today, but ainon's picture of the boys at the Party inspired me :) . I'll have to get busy on some new ones; can't imagine what I've been doing with my time :rolleyes: .

And--besides those I've mentioned anywhere above--also thanks to peaceweaver, kuduk, Mariole, Brunhild and Angelica for your birthday greetings. It didn't end up being a very "special day" in general, but coming here takes care of that :k :k .

And, yes, after a few comments in the Trilogy forum, and finally remembering where the line was from in the Green Dragon quote game, I'm making my last stop here to end the day with #1000 ;) . {{{{Faculty}}}}

Happy Birthday, TG! (It's still your birthday where I am!)

And congrats on 1,000!

I won't take any Oscar talk too seriously until November / December, since so many of the Oscar-worthy movies are slated for release then. Heck, I probably won't take any Oscar talk too seriously until the Oscars are over. I absolutely refuse to get worked up / excited / crestfallen this year, as the Oscars are like many other awards - 60% about quality and 40% about politics. I think PJ and his crew have got the recognition where it counts, at the box office, and they have clearly shown their quality - no one associated with this film will need to worry about whether they're going to get work in the industry again, Oscar or no Oscar. These are the first films where I have ever known the names of the costume designer, and the composer, and the scriptwriters, and the SFX guys, and a whole slew of other individuals who will always have my undying gratitude. They have made their mark.

Now imagine Arwen as blond and..............................Gweynith Paltrow

:eek: Horrors!

Thanks, Narya... :)

And I agree with all you said about the Oscars. Some of the best, most famous, and most popular movies didn't win Oscars, but nobody remembers that when they're watching them years later. Winning "important" Oscars (i.e., the ones fantasy movies have never won :rolleyes: ) does give a movie a bump at the box office from people who wouldn't have gone to see it otherwise. But I don't think casting directors use them to decide whom to use in a role--they'd be shooting themselves in the foot [feet?] if they didn't base that on actors' actual work and talent.

As said many times before, if LotR has put Elijah into the financial position that he can take only roles he's really interested in, more power to him. I just hope he finds enough of them to keep him (and us ;) ) busy.

Tg, congratulations on your 1000 Posts (wow!) and 100 points for you - Wälder/Waelder means indeed Forest.
In English it would be "Black Forest gateau". Unfortunately the cherries got lost in this name.

Blossom, what a wonderful collage! My hubby saw it and said: "That's great!" I'm very happy that he is so fond of Frodo/Frolijah. His personal LotR's favourite character is Gandalf but also in his opinion Frodo is the hero; the heart, the soul and the foundation of the story...
this leads me to the Oscar Watch...
Originally posted by Ghyste
There. is. no. God.

- and no brain, obviously :rolleyes:. Bah! I'm not listening!



Well, when I stumbled over a picture in our weekly programme guide, I had a strong sense of déjà vu -


http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/frodo_sam_oli.jpg http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Nolte_und_Short_Stern-TV_August_2003_Stern-Nr.35.jpg






Of course, I may be wrong, but isn't the guy rightmost the same Martin Short Elijah met a few month ago at E-Click?
You see, it's all happend before :p. Now, dear Faculty colleagues, can this be pure chance? What hidden magic did PJ see in an action comedy from 1989 named "Three Fugitives", that he wanted Frodo and Sam exactly look like Nick Nolte and Martin Short?? I am faced with a riddle ;) :D !

Ran across a rumor on another board that the LOTR actors will *not* be on "Inside the Actor's Studio" this month - anyone up on that? I keep intending to track down peaceweaver's post way back when and get the precise date to try and con someone into taping it for me but haven't yet - it was this month, though, right?

Sheryl

edit:

Dug up the "upcoming shows" scedule of "Inside the Actor's Studio, which goes back to August and up to October 26, and no "Cast of the Lord of the Rings." My guess is that Bravo updates it's website far more reliably than my local library, so it's probably accurate. Which means no guys on there for a while. *sulks*

One the upside, maybe this means we'll see just EW himself sometime - except he doesn't talk much about "how he does it" and may not be interested in an interview where that would be his primary topic.

I never do manage to stay "on the upside" very long, do I? :p

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
Ran across a rumor on another board that the LOTR actors will *not* be on "Inside the Actor's Studio" this month - anyone up on that? I keep intending to track down peaceweaver's post way back when and get the precise date to try and con someone into taping it for me but haven't yet - it was this month, though, right?

I think it was supposed to be on the 29th or so, but I checked the schedule online and there is no mention of the cast on the schedule anywhere. I'm guessing it must have fallen through. :(

Edit: This just in from TORn: The Lord of the Rings Inside the Actor's Studio taping is off and is not likely to happen soon. My source is a producer for Bravo TV. He stated to me that the studio tried to make it happen, however getting everyone's schedule together was daunting. Just did not work out.

PJ and the cast were SUPPOSED to be on Inside the Actor's Studio on Bravo this month but now they're not on the schedule.

This past week Elijah was in London doing voice over work for ROTK and PJ was supposed to be there soon, too. Also the scoring is going on as well with Howard Shore.

I think they are all too busy right now to all get to NY for that show. I hope they have rescheduled to be on it nearer to December.

Edit- OOPS! Bunnie and I posted at the same time!

Re: Bravo TV's Inside the Actor's Studio

The website for this program has a schedule of when interviews are being aired. The current schedule does *not* show the cast of LoTR for September or October. However, I have read that the cast will be *filming* a discussion for the show (this month?) which will be aired later this fall. No confirmation, though.

But if anyone (else) is interested Johnny Depp *is* scheduled to be featured on this program on October 19. :)

Congrats, tg, on the millennial post! ;)

ooh, whiteling, very nice parallel to the Nolte/Short movie. What film is this? You are right: Martin Short has interviewed :rolleyes: Elijah on "Primetime Glick."

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
the Oscars are like many other awards - 60% about quality and 40% about politics.

Gee, I always thought it was the other way around: 60% politics, and 40% quality....:p :D

Geez, you guys are quick! :D

I'm gonna second Angelica's stats - that was always my understanding of the Oscars. ;)

Sheryl

Rats. TORN just posted a report that Bravo has cancelled the group discussion with the LoTR cast, citing difficulties in getting everyone together. :(

Happy Birthday to tg! :)

Sorry this is so late- I haven't been in for a few days (hectic end of term time).

I've given up on the Oscars- I watched them with great enthusiasm the first year, was thoroughly disgusted, and didn't bother next time around . I can't be bothered this time neither. :mad: I never knew before coming onto boards like this just how much politicking actually went on. It was quite a surprise: it never ocurred to me that how much hand shaking, partying, and sucking up directors and actors do could affect the outcome. Guess that's one of the (dis)advantages of living so far away from Hollywood.
But I just can't take it seriously anymore.:rolleyes:

Found this little snippet in my copy of USA Today:

Next up for Elijah Wood: Memory eraser

As much as he loves playing hero Frodo Baggins in The Lord of the Rings trilogy, Elijah Wood is just as thrilled to break out of that character and into the wild creation of Charlie Kaufman, screenwriter of Adaptation and Being John Malkovich and now Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. "It was very refreshing to play a character who was so completely the opposite of Frodo, in such close proximity," says Wood. (The final film of the trilogy, The Return of the King, opens Dec. 17.) "I play this kid named Patrick, a technician who works for a hospital that erases people's memories." In the movie, Kate Winslet has her tumultuous memories of an affair with Jim Carrey erased. Carrey tries to do the same, but the results are quite different. The rest of the cast is similarly impressive: Tom Wilkinson (In the Bedroom), Kirsten Dunst (Spider-Man) and Mark Ruffalo (You Can Count on Me). Eternal Sunshine opens early in 2004.

"similarly impressive" they say....:)

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Eternal Sunshine opens early in 2004.
Didn't the last news we heard--a few months ago--say the plan was to release it in late 2004? This sounds as if we might be seeing it sooner than that. According to IMDb, "Happy Feet" isn't due to be released until 2006 :eek: --animated films can take longer to make than live-action ones, so I still hope that doesn't mean we won't see anything of Elijah in between!

"similarly impressive" they say....:)
Yes, that's very nice :) .

Disappointing news about the Actors Studio program.

Thanks for the b-day greetings, Prim---not really late on this side of the world :p . And, yes, it would be nice to see all the hard work on these movies recognized by "the Academy," but that bunch is a pretty small part of the population :rolleyes: . The LotR "franchise" has already made more of a splash in their voting than any fantasy movie(s) in history.

Originally posted by tgshaw
I still hope that doesn't mean we won't see anything of Elijah in between! In an interview conducted during ComiCon, Dominic mentioned that he and Elijah would be working together next year. No details, completely cryptic, perhaps just wishful thinking... but I have to hope it's true!

Originally posted by peaceweaver
..nice parallel to the Nolte/Short movie. What film is this?

Sorry, peaceweaver, I haven't any further information about "Three Fugitives". I only saw the picture and couldn't help laughing because of the similarity to Frodo and Sam. We have reason to doubt if it is a gap of education not to know this particular piece of movie history :p !

:)

Popping in again with some more T 17 caps.....HERE (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4289073347)

from whiteling

quote:
----------------------------------
Originally posted by Ghyste
There. is. no. God.
----------------------------------



- and no brain, obviously ...
LOL-- :D whiteling, anyone who can come up with a response like that has no need to ever apologize for her English skills :) !

From its showing schedule, Spy Kids 3D looks like it's about ready to skip town, so I went to see it this afternoon (with a friend who has absolutely no desire to read or see anything Tolkien-related--yes, there are these poor people who need our prayers and sympathy :( ). It's just a fun movie--but IMHO it's a very fun movie :p ! And Elwood's performance fits that bill just fine.

That same friend also went to see Secondhand Lions (which I haven't seen), and I asked her if it was true that the first RotK trailer was being shown with that movie. She said she couldn't remember seeing it, but she hadn't paid much attention to the previews. I said, "Oh, I think you would have noticed that one." :rolleyes: :p

----------

Awww, Hobmom, that's such a cute flash of a smile in your avatar :) .

Ok, colleagues: ya wanna see a trailer for Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind? (It features about 2 nanoseconds of Elwood, though.)

Harry Knowles gives you two options, realplayer and windows media, neither of which neither he nor I could make work. :(

But at the 'site which shall not be named', Ms. Allegro has a quicktime version.

This film looks great!

Hello, dear Facultites. I will now reveal why I have been largely absent lately. Last week my hard drive died, right in the middle of a file. I've been working on the client's computer, and finally got my home system back up and running this weekend. What a chore!

I didn't lose much data, as I had a fairly recent backup. (It still killed my entire weekend 9/13 so I could deliver my book on Monday; sigh.) However, I did lose that lovely ROTK trailer that was posted at Latham Film. Apparently they don't let you download it anymore; you can only play it. Does anyone have the trailer tucked away somewhere where I can download it? Thanks!

Still extremely busy, but grateful that most of my programs are back up and running now. Cheers!

(((Mariole))) -- Glad things are getting somewhat back to normal. Sorry I can't help with the trailer :( .

I linked into some ESOTSM material on Yahoo through frodoandsam.net. The trailer's there, but again only in Windows Media Player and RealPlayer. After it did its little check of my system, it suggested I get an update of Media Player, so I downloaded that. By the time that was loaded, I didn't have time to do anything with the trailer before I left for work. So hopefully tonight I can find out if the newest program update makes any difference.

I also didn't get my avatar changed to Birthday mode before I left home, but I keep the Baggins Boys' Birthday Cake on imagemagician for just such emergencies:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/cropcap334.jpg

In celebration of The Birthday of The Mr. Bagginses of Bag End!

I'm wearing my Fellowship brooch at work today--one person has even figured out why ;) .

tg: the ROTK trailer will be shown with Secondhand Lions, but not until the 26th. (this coming Friday) I guess NL didn't have it ready for the Sept 19th debut of "Lions." I wonder how the Box Office tracking will be for that flick, with the Tolkienites holding out til the 26th.;):p

Thank you, thank you, for the lovely Birthday Picture!

Just popped by to say:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY FRODO & BILBO!

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/MyDearBoy.jpg

Sending love, wherever you are! :k

BLOSSOM that is a lovely composite of the Baggins men!

What program do you use?

As young Huck Finn would say - 'Well thank you for the compliment,'(IIRC) Hobmom. (I love young Elijah's delivery of that line)

In answer to your question, I use MGI PhotoSuite 4 for the collages. Really easy to use - It must be, even I can do it!:confused: I find it very calming and relaxing too, playing about with lovely pics of Frolijah and hopefully creating something vaguely artistic.:)

oh, Blossom, that was so beautiful and touching. *sniff*

where's my hankie?

Blossom, putting down my hanky, I'd just like to say - "vaguely artistic" is the understatement of the year! Thank you so much for sharing your moving collages with us :k !

Ah, what a refreshing, relaxing place. Yesterday I worked 8 hours straight, spent 15 min in the teachers' lounge and then was immediately grabbed for an unscheduled 1 hour meeting (that could've taken 15 min.) before I could get to *my* two hours of paperwork. :mad:

No fear of that at the Faculty Lounge. I think I'll kick off my shoes, fire up the DVD and sip a little Zinfandel. There! What, it's 5 in the morning? Well, I can dream anyway. :)

Thanks for the screencaps, Hobmom! I kept scrolling back and forth from caps 42 to 46 (from her 9/20 link). (Try it, it’s fun!)
I could easily tell each emotion/thought change in each cap. That’s Elijah Wood for you. My psyche and heart know instantly what his character’s thinking and feeling without my mind even defining those emotions and thoughts.

Thanks for the Bree Gate caps on your site, tg.
Lovely determination through the fear and weariness.

Blossom-thanks for another beautiful collage.

I got Try 17 the other day! I think hubby and I will have a date to watch it this evening (grandparents taking kids to practice)!
We also picked up Shrek, Veggietales’ Jonah, Speed Racer (watching that with the kids Sunday brought back great childhood memories!) and Monty Python’s Holy Grail movie for hubby. Ok, I watched Shrek Sat night with the kids, parts of Monty Python the other night with hubby and Monday Night Football last night (go Broncos!). So, I’m *entitled* to all I want, right?? ;)

Well, real life calls.

Blossom--a heartachingly beautiful collage. One of my favorite movie scenes (nothing better than having those two actors on screen together--especially when they're playing characters who love each other so much).



RotK book spoiler







I hope we get a wonderful payoff at the end of RotK:
from JRRT
His [Bilbo's] companionship was really necessary for Frodo's sake -- it is difficult to imagine a hobbit, even one wo had been through Frodo's experiences, being really happy even in an earthly paradise without a companion of his own kind, and Bilbo was the person Frodo most loved.






End of RotK book spoiler






Still waiting for Try 17. I figured this would happen when I pre-ordered from amazon, but it was still the easiest way to do it... Maybe I'll have a note in my mailbox after work tonight telling me I have a package to pick up.

After getting sidetracked for a couple of months, I've been working on the requested scene of Mikey delighting in the ice storm. I'm finding it kind of difficult to capture the emotion in screencaps, because so much of it is "audio"--we see his running and sliding mostly in long-shots, and hear him shouting in delight. Most of the close-ups show more awe than happiness, or show him recovering his breath after sliding down the street. There are a couple that I think may be good, though, after I lighten them up some so we can see his face better.

From looking at those scenes again, I think Mikey may be the EJW character closest to Frodo in the way they're acted. Not that the characters themselves are much alike, but there's something about the way he holds his mouth for both of them (more "centered") and the somewhat restrained voice. Before I ever saw or heard Elijah as Frodo, I thought he was doing something differently with Mikey's voice than I'd heard him do with any other character. My feeling of similarity between the two characters may just be based on the fact that, IMHO, they're the two characters who end up looking and sounding the least like Elijah.

Tg, thank you for that wonderful book quote. Lovely :) !

I'm very much looking forward to seeing your screencaps of Ice Storm Mikey. You are right, Ang Lee is a director who works a lot with sound and sound effects. His pictures reaches full force only in connection with sound. When I listened "The Ice Storm" with headphones, I was deeply impressed by the handling of sound. Wonderful spare use of asiatic seeming music... the frozen clinking of the branches, the icy raindrops - that all gave me goosebumps and made me feel really like standing in the midst of an ice storm. And that calamitous noise of the broken power cable :eek: ! *shudder*

I'm not sure if this is the right thread to post this link, but I believe it was Elijah's performance as Frodo that led this brave, young woman to reach the conclusions she did concerning her situation and Frodo's.


http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/091503_01.html

caution: tissue alert!

Could another actor have caused this lady to "connect" the way she did? Doubtful...

methinks this lady belongs in the Harem ;)

(If the mods wish to move this post somewhere else, please do so.;) )

No Angelica, I think this was the right place for that very moving personal story of how Frodo's battle against the Ring mirrored the writer's own against cancer.

I think it would benefit all of us to read this lady's account of what LOTR, and Elijah's Frodo, in particular, meant to her.

It put's what is really important in life into perspective.

And I think the Professor would, and Elijah should, deservedly feel mighty proud.

Angelica, many thanks for posting the link to that essay. Very powerful, and moving.

Food for thought to start the day.

Angelica - I read Sophia's moving essay yesterday at TORn. Here is someone who completely recognizes and understands Frodo's quiet heroism - she shares that very special quality with him.


Quote:
In The Two Towers, I could see the change in Frodo's character. No more Mr. Nice Guy. He got testy. And he almost gave the ring up at Gondor. I could see why. Towards the end of my treatments, with my immune system in shambles, my sanity all but lost -- I wanted the Nazgul to just "come and get it." But there were "Sams" in my life that luckily talked some sense into me:
________________________________________________

It will be difficult to watch the Osgiliath Frodo/Nazgul scene again without thinking of Sophia and the profound feeling of empathy she has with Frodo at this point.

Quote:
My idea of the term hero has been redefined by this movie. After dealing with my illness and its repercussions, I discovered that no one could save me -- except ME. No one could save Frodo from his perilous path -- except Frodo. Like me, Frodo is small and frail. What strength or courage could come from us -- the "halflings", the weaklings -- or so they all thought. Heroes are not the big and brawny, the rich and powerful -- what have they done for us lately anyway? Heroes walk amongst us every day and they are also someplace else --WITHIN. Ask any cancer survivor. Like Frodo, we have our friends for support, but we also have faith, hope and the WILL TO SURVIVE. Nazgul be damned.
________________________________________________

What great courage and determination this lady has.

I so agree with Hobmom and Goldenberry. We should all read this and feel proud of J.R.R Tolkien, Frodo, Elijah, Sophia and all who struggle against seemingly overwhelming odds with that inspirational strength of spirit.

Please continue the wonderful discussion about that wonderful essay.

But I just found something really cool! And WHY does this always happen when I am broke! So near and yet so far!

Hobbits Playing Charades in NYC Monday (http://orlandomultimedia.net/news2003/sept/news09242003c.html)

I hope we get pics of this!!!!

Those tickets are $250! EACH! Ai! Ai! :(

Yeah but, Elda!!!

Elijah and two extra hobbits!!!!

Grab Meryl and go and get pics!

I know, I know.. I don't have the money either! Dangnabit!!! But this has got to be great!

Angelica, thank you for posting that link! That essay was beyond moving, it's about as powerful a discussion of the impact and relevance of Frodo/LotR that I've ever read.

It ties in as a very strong real-life testament to the discussion in my absolute favourite essay over at Frodo and Sam net, too. (One Step More: The Heroism of Frodo Baggins) That one I've actually sometimes used to buoy myself up a bit when life's been tough lately. One step at a time, one day at a time, keep going.......

Sophia's essay made it all stand out even clearer. And that bit about children with cancer, showing hidden strengths like the LotR main hobbits.... :( :(

Where is ainon? - I recall that she actually compared movie-Frodo's snapping at Sam, his suddenly-flaring temper, his sometimes utter despair, to the emotions and reactions of cancer patients some time back. This certainly underlines the truth of that.

And btw, hobmom, the link to the charades thing in NYC was fun, but my thoughts once more go to the KL Faculty member: EJW and Edward Norton both will be present! - but it's on the other side of the world. Ack.


Edit: Elda, I'm with Hobmom, I think. At some point in time you simply *must* be fated to at least see EJW in person from a better vantage point than a sleet storm where he's just whisked by in a car. Yet - the price of that event: :eek: :eek:

Hobmom, Elda - Elijah, Dom and Billy and charades? - I would LOVE to see that! Isn't the 29th the date they had set up for 'The Actor's Studio?' I'm so disappointed that won't be going ahead - who knows, we may have got to see it here in the UK eventually.

Just saw this at TORn. I know we have only a few more days to wait to actually SEE the ROTK trailer, but someone HAS seen it, and the details are
here: (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1064418201)

Hi to Maeg - Yes, where IS ainon?

Blossom; - I read that over at TorN, and I tried my best to visualize *this*, but I did find it soemwhat difficult, even if it's supposed to be a dream:


Spoiler, if the trailer rumours turn out to be true!
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Galadriel leaning against Frodo who is lying on the ground
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End spoiler, if spoiler it is!

Maeg - I wondered about that too. The mind boggles!!!

Yeah, Maeglin, I wondered about that *spoiler,* too. I remember a long-ago interview with Cate Blanchet (sp?) and she said that

SPOILER
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Galadriel appears to Frodo "in his darkest hour"
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END SPOILER


What do you suppose that meant?

erm, shouldn't this discussion be over at the ROTK Spoilers thread?;) :eek:

Hey guys. Been kinda preoccupied with some stuff - nothing big, just kinda had me not so on-line as much. (((Maeg & Blossom))) :k

Blossom, I love your birthday collage! Immensely gazeable. Thank you. How's Holly doing now?

Angelica, I'm adding my thanks to you for posting that link. I haven't really been checking in with TORn of late, so I would have plain missed it if you hadn't shared it with us.

Mariole - how're you? :)

Originally posted by Maeglian
And btw, hobmom, the link to the charades thing in NYC was fun, but my thoughts once more go to the KL Faculty member: EJW and Edward Norton both will be present! - but it's on the other side of the world. Ack.

Sigh. You said it, Maeg. I'll try to be stoic about this. True, there's no chance in heck in me ever seeing this stuff (unless an altruistic members of the audience take to bringing hidden camcorders into the place and releasing the footage on internationally available VCDs *cough*) but maybe Elijah Wood and Edward Norton will sit down and decide on what movie they'll do together, and then they can start talking about stuff, and anayse acting techniques and whatever, and then one day, when Elijah's finally succumbs ... erm, I mean ... agrees to our stalking ... uh, no, no, I meant to say persuasive invitations to attend the Faculty Moot, he'll be more than ready to be freaked out by - uh, fascinated - yeah, that's it, as we go through his movies frame-by-frame and did I have a point to any of this? Well, no. Just being stoic. Rather than being sulky about not seeing hobbits and Edward Norton together on one stage. And thinking about how many hours it'll take to download the RotK trailer come Monday. Yup. I'm just fine. :p :D

Hurriedly veering back to Faculty matters ... tg, you're doing Mikey's scene? All right! :cool:

Yes, Angelica, thanks for that link. I'm assuming the author signed her real name, but it's very fitting that her first name means "wisdom."

IMHO, it really says something about these movies that they've been bringing to so many people the same kind of support the book has been giving all these years (and Sophia manages to say the things she does by referring to only the movies). Even though the Professor certainly would have disagreed with some of the films' details if he'd been here to comment, I do believe he rejoices over each person who's helped in any way by the spirit of his story and his characters.

And when I read things like that essay, it helps my "inner purist" settle down a bit. I haven't been, shall we say, overly fond :rolleyes: of Sam's "UN speech," but if some people are responding to it the way Sophia has, I'm not going to complain. The same thing happened to me with the hand grasp between Frodo and Sam at the end of FotR. I went from actively disliking it (because I thought Sam's near-drowning was too melodramatic) to having it as my home computer wallpaper after reading other people's responses to it.

And, as Hobmom said, Elijah's portrayal of the "inner Frodo" was essential, and he has every right to rejoice right along with Tolkien over people who've found hope in the character. If these movies become classics (which, IMHO, is a sure thing), EJW as well as JRRT will be touching people's lives for generations. I'm sure Elijah has some realization of that now, and I hope he sees it more and more as the years pass.

It's because his acting can have enough emotional power to affect people that I hope (maybe selfishly) that Elijah continues to focus on movies that have something positive at their core (even if it's simply to make people laugh). Not that I'd mind seeing him play the villain once in awhile ;) -- I'm talking about the movie itself, not necessarily his role. It sounds as if ESOTSM may give us a bit of that, with his character running somewhat counter to the film's positive message. His most negative movie to date is undoubtedly B&W (no, not the worst ;) , just the most negative), and even that movie doesn't glorify all the nastiness it shows; IMHO, the most negative thing about it is that it doesn't seem to show any hope of change.

Which provides a nice segue to his second most negative film (because it at least shows people have the ability to change)--
Originally posted by ainon
Hurriedly veering back to Faculty matters ... tg, you're doing Mikey's scene? All right! :cool:
Here y'go: Mikey's Delight from The Ice Storm (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id192.htm). I'm still working on some October updates, but since this page is ready I went ahead and published it. As I've posted on the page itself, there are plot spoilers there.

BTW, Try 17 finally got here. The War, which I hadn't had on DVD, came in the same order, so that one's "open for requests" now :) . That would be requests for November, of course (I tell myself :o ). The only purpose of trying to stick with once-a-month additions is so that I won't spend all my time at it--as opposed to just more time than I should :rolleyes: , which is basically a constant state. Comments on Spy Kids-3D are also up.

I watched Try 17 straight through last night, and I'm afraid the DVD just made me like it--and Jones--more. I found the love scene even more touching and beautiful. So it seems this will be one movie that different people will just continue to feel differently about. Which is :cool: .

Later: I forgot earlier that I was going to ask if anyone can explain for me the following sentence from the back of the DVD: [After mentioning Jane's ex-boyfriend showing up] "Jones enlists the aid of Brad (Aaron Pearl), his wacky downstairs neighbor, and they concoct a scheme that could get him what he wants... and a lot more!" [BTW, the "..." is in the original--I didn't omit anything.]

Brad was a help and a support for Jones, but if the two of them "concocted a scheme," I sure missed it :confused: .

* waves*

I'm working deadline, which was made harder due to my recent hard disk crash, so I haven't had time for participating as I would like. But I must say, those pics of Mikey in the storm have sparked some ideas. Eventually, something will be posted about them.

Regarding the DVD cover blurb, I noticed it and puzzled over it as well. I'm afraid my dismissive comment was that it was simply cooked up by the marketing dept who really didn't have much of a clue how to describe the movie, and tried to cram Brad's character in there any old way they could. Many creative and highly interpretive paragraphs are written on the backs of books and DVDs that either bear no relation or sometimes outright spoil the work they are supposed to promote. Blegh. (Where's that stick-out-tonge smiley when you need it?)

I love how Tolkien's work continues to reach people through the various media. That's the thing about a work of art -- once you create it and let it loose, it isn't yours anymore. It's your child, perhaps, but it has its own life and makes it own impact and connections with people. All you can do it watch, and let it make its own way.

) What do you suppose that meant?

:eek: I think I'm glad that I've been away for far too long......


It's been RL+++ (and still is unfortunately-didn't even get the opportunity to watch the War when it was on TV here recently-not helped by the *dratted* reception) but I am lurking.

I am definitely avoiding ROTK spoilers though so don't be surprised if you don't hear much from me. spare moments are spent enjoying the TTT DVD :D :D

keep up the good work ((faculty)))


oh, and a belated but heartfelt birthday wish for TG (:k )

viola

Angelica- thanks for the inspiring story
Ainon and Mariole-glad to see you back!
tg-lovely Mikey delight
((faculty))



------------------------Try 17 spoilers to end of post---------------------






Originally posted by tgshaw
Later: I forgot earlier that I was going to ask if anyone can explain for me the following sentence from the back of the DVD: [After mentioning Jane's ex-boyfriend showing up] "Jones enlists the aid of Brad (Aaron Pearl), his wacky downstairs neighbor, and they concoct a scheme that could get him what he wants... and a lot more!" [BTW, the "..." is in the original--I didn't omit anything.]

Brad was a help and a support for Jones, but if the two of them "concocted a scheme," I sure missed it :confused: .

I puzzled over that too but decided they meant the car repairs. It’s not exactly right chronologically or motivationally, but DVD box writers often don’t seem to care about details or subtlety. Hence the definition of "wacky downstairs neighbor". Ten or twenty years ago it would have been "wacky downstairs gay neighbor".

A few comments after my first viewing:

During the first 15 minutes my self-talk was “don’t roll your eyes…keep an open mind…oh, I should’ve just rented it!” It felt very stereotypical and Elijah seemed dull or, at times, like eye-squinching Frodo lost in the city. (Okay, so I’m going through Wig withdrawal)

Then a few bright spots started to break through, then it started to shine so bright I wondered why I doubted.

Tg wrote (I hope she doesn’t start charging me royalties): “In turns it's touching, funny, serious, lighthearted, sympathetic, maddening, extreme, and subtle, just like life.”

Very, very true. IMO, this movie can’t be pigeon-holed as a particular genre.

Some favorite lines:

“I live here, you lunatics!”

“I think it was the deer’s fault” (he obviously misunderstood Lisa’s comment, in a perfectly Jones way)

“Try 17” and “that was the most exciting thing I’ve ever seen, in real life"
(Jones and Jane are great together but so are Jones and Brad.)

“If you have a problem with nice, I can $%#@ Lisa” (Not liking the delivery the first time, I later went back and watched this twice more and have decided that it is perfectly appropriate for the characters and situation. It’s not said in anger, but in compassion.)


I did not like Lisa. And I don’t mean in a “you’re not supposed to like her, she’s the competition” way. In the scene with no furniture where Jones tells her she could sit on the trunk, was Mandy’s direction to be playing an actress who was playing a part? It felt totally artificial to me. I think it detracted from the story (the way IMVHO LivArwen detracted from FOTR).

I think I’ll wear out the DVD on the Jones and Jane and Jones and Brad parts. But how many times do I need to watch it to stop hating the name Jones Dillon? It’s great as a name for his fictional western saloon character but in real life...?! Well, actually, in my work I deal with a lot of kids (of very young mothers) who were given unfortunate names and I suppose Blanche may have been the same way.

IMO, it’s easy to forgive this movie because there are so many great parts. It’s like life.

Hey Viola. Good to see you. Sorry to hear about the overabundance of trout in RL though. :p *hugs*


tg - thanks for the Mikey page! And I love that you called it 'Mikey's Delight'. Yeah, that sheer delight is infectious -- I was smiling even just looking at those screencaps; because screencaps, being excised from the movie, don't hint what's coming next so you don't get bogged down by that sense of 'uh-oh. he's happy. he's soooo gonna get it in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 ... hah! I knew it! oh. owww' doom that decades of movies have attuned us to. Which also means, angst-sucker I may be, but I'm filled with gratitude, my dear tg, that you did not include caps of what happens next.

That zipper in the hood ... it drives me nuts in a not-nice way, but like you say, tg. It's so Mikey. :p Technical comment: cool background. Very thematic. You storyboarded it that way, didn't you, tg? ;)

----------------------

Ah. 'The War'. Plenty of angst to choose from!

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Stu-4tangis.JPG

Including the Faculty-patented voice Froshadowing that we get in this scene (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Stu-0tangis.JPG).*


Something about the way he looks up at his mom here reminds me of the way Frodo looks up at Gandalf (Blossom's beautiful PreMoria collage (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/PreMoria2.jpg)) I don't mean the angle, or the expression on his face. There's just this something he does *as* he's making eye contact with each respective co-star.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Stu-ibu2.JPG


And this light-shining-upon-Stu moment would be nice if capped from a DVD. Personally, I roll my eyes whenever that light beams upon Stu right on cue, but I tell myself it's just a Froshadowing of a very literal sort. :p

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Stu-lightshining.JPG


*froshadows to the Bag End scene between Gandalf and Frodo, where Frodo realises that the Ring is his responsibility. Being a bit vague about it because I'm not too sure how much to spoil, but bonus points go to those who can write a post-length essay about it. ;)


-----------------------------


... eye-squinching Frodo lost in the city.

While Jones never reminded me of Frodo, this line made me LOL! Glad you enjoyed the movie, nurse. D'oh. Kuduk. :)



(((Mariole)))) Good luck facing down that deadline!

-----------------------------


Right. Finally! I got the whole 5.5 MB preliminary trailer downloaded from TORn. Hooboy. Frodo Frodo Frodo. And I'll be danged. I am all glazy-eyed angst-appreciative witless, but I gotta say ... that Aragorn is the swooniest Dude this side of a hobbit thread. Ehem.

I agree wholehearted with all what has been said on Angelica's link - Maeglian, you put it very pertinent, describing LotR as a buoy in times, when Fortuna's wheel turns downwards.
Story and films can really be an anchor (I know from my own experience), and very elevating and nurturing - (Btw, Maeg, I haven't a clue what KL means? :o).

Tg, very nice screencaps of Mikey! EW wearing that red anorak always makes me smile - I can't help it, he resembles "Bibendum", aka the "Michelin Man" :D !

Hi, Mariole - good luck with meeting your deadline! - Ahem, you mentioned... "those pics of Mikey in the storm have sparked some ideas"... - Mariole, you master of suspense :p !

Hi, Viola - hope RL is getting better for you!

Kuduk, thank you for the Try 17 review!

ainon - gorgeous Stu pics, especially the "Froshadowing of a very literal sort". It looks like a scene from a Passion play.
Enjoy the trailer :) !

Have a great weekend, all -

(((Faculty)))

Well, I came down with a cold from Mordor, so I figured it was a good time to finally rent and watch Ash Wednesday. You know, when I'm too weak to get up and run away from all the walking... :p (you have all prepared me well, I think. ;) )

Wish me luck. :D

Oh, and TG, those are GREAT screencaps of Mikey. Something about them made me start thinking about Mikey in a different way than I had before, and I have a half-formed idea about him that I have to think about for a bit, and do a little research, then I'll share.

ainon - Hi. Great Stu pics - I love that film - and thanks for using my Pre-Moria collage for your Stu/Frodo comparison.:)
And thanks for asking about Holly. She had more tests last week, and they came back normal, thank goodness. So she is now back to her usual, energetic self, happily wrecking all her toys again.:rolleyes:

Drat - I saw the news about the trailer being on TORn earlier, and clicked to download it - but it wasn't there! :( There must be a spanner in the works again. Oh well, looks like I'll have to wait until Monday.

Mariole - Hope the work eases up for you soon.
Viola - It's nice to know that you're at least managing to lurk when RL allows. :)
kuduk - I'm glad you enjoyed 'Try 17' (Much the better title) after the shaky start. I really like Elijah in this film, and agree with what others here have said about his great comic timing.
Tg - Wonderful Mikey screencaps.:) Thanks for those and all the other great material at frodolives.
Hello Whiteling.:)

I don't know if anyone recalls this (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/wendebeefrodos.jpg) stunning artwork of Smiling Frodo/The Poster Frodo someone (sorry, I can't remember who it was) brought to our attention a while back. I was browsing at The Bag End Inn and saw these amazing pictures by the same artist. Well worth a look:

Picture 1 (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/wendeebee1.jpg)

Picture 2 (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/wendebee3_small.jpg)

Picture 3 (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/wendee4.jpg)

Picture 4 (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/littlerest.jpg)

Bye.

I was so glad to read the essay Sophia wrote -- Angelica, thank you for the heads-up.

These are exactly the kinds of stories that mean so much and why Frodo's story is, IMO, so important--because it can be so personal. And Frodo has to call on qualities in himself that all of us can hope to try to access when we are challenged. It is so inspiring. I don't know why, but I know so many people who are struggling this summer. And I hold Frodo's image close to me to try to keep strong as I try to help. I have a friend--a beautiful, brilliant, charismatic man (with dark curls like Elijah --I mean like Frodo) who has, after resisting for years, had a bipolar breakdown--and I watch him struggle against the disease and the against the effects of the meds just to keep his mind. And no one knows how he has stayed so strong. And I watch Elijah's Frodo in TTT and I think what grace he gains in the end. And I have hope...and I can calmly pass that hope on.

TGShaw said if Sam's UN speech affects people like it did Sophia, then she might not feel so much of her original objections. YEY!! I feel I have to have that attitude in the face of things that seem pretty dire. Not only, for example, my friends health--but (and believe me-- I don't usually go for corny) I've worked for various causes over the years, and I think to keep going, you kind of have to have this corny sense of fighting for good and of hope in dark places. So I take it seriously!! I'm sure it doesn't work for everyone in my position--but it works for me. And I think it's hobbit like. My kid--who is quite a sophisticated thinker--also says, yeah, you can think of it corny--or choose not to. It's just that hobbits are SINCERE. And these days people are so jaded that it is hard to take sincerety without a giggle. I love just the simple idea of sincerety that is actually played out and made real. THese hobbits aren't just talking!! They are doing!! So let em talk. My daughter and I threw socks at my husband when he opened his mouth to PERHAPS say "corny". I buy it in the circumstance. And I buy it from such a good hobbit. I sure understand someone else not liking it--you could look at it either way. But I get meaning from it, so I like it. And I, too, liked how Sophia related it to her own fight against cancer.

Oh Ainon and Maeglian?--do Edward Norton and Elijah fans often go together? I've seen his name in here more than once. My daughter is a huge EN fan.

Loved all the pictures... and birthday greetings (late) to Frodo and Bilbo and tgshaw!!

*Holy* *Elbereth*

Blossom, that "Smiling Frodo/Poster Frodo" picture, and the fourth link picture, "a little rest," just break my heart.:( I get a lump in my throat just looking at them. ROTK is going to kill me outright...

Oh, Blossom--those pictures are gorgeous. Thank you thank you!!

that sense of 'uh-oh. he's happy. he's soooo gonna get it in 5 - 4 - 3 - 2 - 1 ... hah! I knew it!

Woman, you are *sooo* suspicious. :p I usually watch cheerily and get thunked by the disaster. Except in action movies naturally where disasters are endless and time consuming. Then I find myself waiting for the black guy to bite it. :rolleyes:

Who was the actor that played Stu's mum in the War? I know that face but can't put a name to it. I've always quite liked her work.

Whiteling: KL refers to Kuala Lumpur- Ainon's home.

Narya: I was so distracted by the not that coherent plotline of Ash Wednesday that, (don't look Ainon), I actually Failed To Notice The Walking. This is strange since when I saw Brothers Mullaney (much the superior to this effort I might add) the walking was one of the things I noticed first???:confused: I should watch the movie again I guess...but well...the motivation simply isn't there. :D
Though as I recollect the film did lead to a fascinating discussion here about what Ash Wednesday actually means and other symbolism in the film so it wasn't a total failure. :D And EW is very creditable in this. When Burns gives him some screen time that is.:rolleyes:

Greetings Alyon. I don't think I've "met" you but then I'm rarely here lately. I still loathe Sam's UN speech but must admit that the sentiments expressed are touching and IMO very true (and ultimately very Tolkein since they appear elsewhere and in a less oratorial and much more intimate and thus effective format). I just think Jackson totally blew the packaging. Fortuneately modern technology (the FF button) has solved this problem for me. :) But like tg I've become remarkably fond of the handgrasp at the end of FoTR.

Viola sent me the magazine Film Review which has no real info about RoTK but has some nice shots of Frodo in Shelob's tunnel, covered in sticky webs (ick) and looking rather perturbed. No Sting though: not in his hand or its scabbard??? Huh?

Blossom - Gorgeous pics! Thanks for posting them. :k

How about the name rusty James from "Rumble Fish?"

"That's my name, 'Rusty James.' " "I hate it when people just call my 'Rusty' it makes me feel like I've got no pants on."
:eek:

:D what's NOT to love about a character like this? :D

Those pics are lovely, Blossom! I'm particularly partial to sleepingFrodo, where he's lying on his side. I just love that shot in the movie, and now it's such a beautiful piece of work.

The trailer I was downloading was the incomplete trailer that aired on American TV - barely a minute, and already that huge. I'm speaking as a modem-user. You people with ISDN and whatnot, go away. :p I don't wanna know how you could download that stuff in just oh, two to three seconds. :p Anyway, I just know I'll drive myself crazy if I try to download the full trailer from home when it comes out, but then today, I just happened to be at work and I found out about the Asian version that TORn had up and I kinda downloaded it to my office computer. So now I know. I'll do the same thing when the NewLine releases the trailer on Monday/Tuesday. Then I'll burn it to a CD and bring it home.

http://home.villagephotos.com/2003-7/13204/a'in/rotk.jpg

As for the Asian version, the quality is that bad. And there're subtitles to boot. But it's something. :D So if you guys can't wait till Monday, and TORn still isn't coming through, try:

http://pubnix.org/~mark/ROTK_Trailer.mpeg

http://www.nightly.net/lotr/rotk.mov

Same video, different formats. Warning: VERY large file. If you're a modem user. :p


---------------------------------------


Hey Whiteling. I'm here in KL, Malaysia. :)



(((Narya))). Hope you're feeling better. How dedicated you are to brave all that walking while you're so unwell. But, now that you've seen it, you're perfectly welcome to join Bridget and I as we endeavour to find ways to stop Ed Burns from taking another step. :D Bridget and I have kinda lapsed in our duties; just heard that Ed Burns is now starring with Dustin Hoffman is a new movie; title has totally slipped my mind. :p We must save the world from Walking Ed Burns!


(((Prim))) There you are! Stu's mom was played by Mare Winningham, she of the 80s teen movie crowd. Wasn't she always the virgin who'd lose the guy to Demi Moore? :p I can't believe you missed Ed's piano-accompanied walking ...

Originally posted by Prim
Viola sent me the magazine Film Review which has no real info about RoTK but has some nice shots of Frodo in Shelob's tunnel, covered in sticky webs (ick) and looking rather perturbed. No Sting though: not in his hand or its scabbard??? Huh?

You sure that he was in Shelob's tunnel? And that he wasn't, like, maybe, just waking up in some strange enclosed place, feeling quite ill, wondering what the hey ... ? Hey, I can speculate the worst, right? ;) But I think I know the pic you're talking about. Could be just a promo shot.


----------------------


Alyon, thanks for sharing that post with us. And I like what you said, about the hobbits being sincere, and us audience accepting that sincerity, rather than writing it off as 'corny'. Sam is as sincere as you can get - for real. Every time I watch, I'm more and more impressed with Sean Astin. He pulls it off, makes it work.

--do Edward Norton and Elijah fans often go together? I've seen his name in here more than once. My daughter is a huge EN fan.

I am a huge EN fan, yes! :) I finally managed to see all of EN's movies, but he doesn't do many of them, alas.

Originally posted by ainon

Hey Whiteling. I'm here in KL, Malaysia. :)



Er, sorry, ainon... I wondered what KL could possibly mean - "keep laughing", "Knight Lancelot" or "Knowledge laboratory" :confused:... :k

Re: Trailer summaries - Woe is me! I SO hope that dead-looking Frodo will not be the highlight of EW's role in ROTK. That is exactly what I'm dreading. Think I'll skip the trailer.... perhaps I'll skip the movie... :(

RotK spoilers:

Well, first off, I think any significant discussion of Rotk spoilers does belong in the RotK thread - there are people here who are trying to avoid them. I'm not one of them - but I know there are others! :) But your post deserves an answer here, I think.

The shot you're referring to, he doesn't look dead, just exhausted. Which he is at numerous points in the book, as well. It's canon. The quest was hard on Frodo. It would be far more disappointing if PJ did NOT convey how Frodo suffered, because that is what makes his continuing on despite how he suffered so meaningful.

There are also other shots of Frodo in the trailer in which he is very active - climbing that impossible mountain, defending Gollum, his 'vision' of Galadriel, running from Shelob holding the phial - and if you've read the spoiler info on it you'll know that.

So if you're getting uptight about one 2-second shot in a trailer....and ignoring all the rest...and comtemplating not seeing the movie because of it... :rolleyes: . Try to look at it as a whole. And don't prejudge an entire three hour movie based on one moment (which may be straight-out-of-Tolkien, for all we know of it), especially when there is simultaneous evidence that there is far more to Frodo's role than that moment.

Thanks Narya. Your words are encouraging. I hadn't read all the impressions. It's just that for me (and for many here I guess), Frodo is the inspirational and aesthetic core of the book and I wouldn't want to see the movie eviscerate him (prematurely). You've reassured me. :)

So much good stuff to read and think about, I'm not sure where to start--or stop ;) . It's probably a good thing that my time's limited here because I'm planning to go see the RotK trailer this afternoon. I understand there's some kind of a movie attached to it :confused: . I may stay and watch that, too, if it's any good :p . BTW, if I have any comments afterward, they'll be over in the Trilogy/RotK forum--there's an active discussion about it going on over there for any who want to get some varied opinions and speculations, and since we've got some people here who haven't even read the book yet...



Try 17 spoilers





Originally posted by kuduk
During the first 15 minutes [of Try 17] my self-talk was “don’t roll your eyes…keep an open mind…oh, I should’ve just rented it!” It felt very stereotypical and Elijah seemed dull or, at times, like eye-squinching Frodo lost in the city. (Okay, so I’m going through Wig withdrawal)

Then a few bright spots started to break through, then it started to shine so bright I wondered why I doubted.
That was how I felt, too. I wonder if it was even planned that way--to have us first see Jones as a kind of stereotypical "kid who doesn't fit in" and then get to know him gradually as an individual.



Tg wrote (I hope she doesn’t start charging me royalties):...
No, no... one of my favorite things is when someone says, "I read somewhere..." and it's something I wrote :o . Even if the person doesn't agree with what they read! :) I've always taken it as a compliment from Brunhild (who hasn't been around for awhile, either :confused: ) when she throws some of my own words back at me during a discussion.

“I think it was the deer’s fault” (he obviously misunderstood Lisa’s comment, in a perfectly Jones way)
Hmmm.... I took that in a completely different way--that is, I think he was pretending to misunderstand her. IMHO, Jones understood her perfectly, and that statement was one of the "clues" that allowed him to confront Steve so directly with what had happened. First time I watched the movie, I wondered how he could be so certain about that--he makes it a statement more than a question when he talks to Steve in the hospital. Then the second (and third) times through the movie, I started picking up all the pieces that Jones had been able to put together to come up with the correct scenario. I hope he doesn't abandon his plans to become a writer--he's a great observer of life and human nature!

I did not like Lisa. And I don’t mean in a “you’re not supposed to like her, she’s the competition” way. In the scene with no furniture where Jones tells her she could sit on the trunk, was Mandy’s direction to be playing an actress who was playing a part? It felt totally artificial to me. I think it detracted from the story (the way IMVHO LivArwen detracted from FOTR).
The difference for me between MandyLisa and LivArwen is that Arwen isn't supposed to be an actress playing a part--she's supposed to be an Elven princess. OTOH, IMHO Lisa is very much "an actress playing a part," even in her real life. She comes across to me as someone who sees herself as always "on stage" in one way or another, very conscious of what effect she wants to have on people and of how to get it. Maybe I'm projecting this onto her because of other people I've known who are like that, but she does seem to have that kind of self-conscious way of doing things.

I think I’ll wear out the DVD on the Jones and Jane and Jones and Brad parts. But how many times do I need to watch it to stop hating the name Jones Dillon? It’s great as a name for his fictional western saloon character but in real life...?! Well, actually, in my work I deal with a lot of kids (of very young mothers) who were given unfortunate names and I suppose Blanche may have been the same way.
I used to work in a hospital medical records department, and one thing we recorded was the names given to babies born in the hospital. Let me tell you, some of them were :eek: :rolleyes: :confused: ... and just about any other smilie you could use!!

There were a few things in this movie that struck me as being... I don't quite know how to define it... "purposeful" but not necessarily "symbolic." Each of the main characters has a name that could be seen as stereotypical of who they are if we took them as stereotypical people--I really don't know how to say this. Blanche as the Southern belle (although we don't know if her last name is DuBois). Brad as the "gay guy" (maybe not quite as stereotypical as "Jeffrey," but...). Lisa as the flighty blonde. Jane as the female whose "substance" is more important than her looks. Steve as... well, a guy. And, except for Blanche, they're all extremely common first names. Then we get someone with "Jones"--one of the most common surnames, as well as one that's considered pretty "generic" in the U.S. (non-ethnic, non-regional, etc.) --as a first name.

As I said, I don't know if this is supposed to mean anything or if the writer was just having fun with the names, but it seems a bit beyond likely coincidence; in a group of that many people you wouldn't expect everyone to have such common names. If I were going to try to come up with some reason behind it (any help--or alternate theories--from Mariole? ;) ), it would be that in some ways the characters can seem stereotypical but as we get to know them they become less and less that way. Especially true of Jones, IMHO. And interesting with him because up until this point in his life he seems to have actually been living as something of a generic person: "The first time you've felt pain." "No funny accent."

Probably just crazy thoughts, but I thought they were actually an interesting bunch of names (and notice that we never know anyone's last name except for Jones?).






End of Try 17 spoilers





from ainon
Technical comment: cool background. Very thematic. You storyboarded it that way, didn't you, tg?
Well, it wasn't quite that planned... I have about a gazillion backgrounds for web pages and love to play around with them, but they usually distract too much from the content so I have to sigh and just use a solid color. Thought I'd try that particular one with those pics because the dark blue and the sharp edges seemed to fit the idea of an ice storm. I was completely surprised when I scrolled down the page afterward and saw that it looked like there was sleet or rain coming down in the blank spaces between the pics! The effect comes from the fact that the pictures are moving while the background is stationary. Just a bit of serendipity.

There are still people to thank for belated birthday greetings, and kind words about the website, and beautiful comments and insights and lovely pictures... but now I must be off to see the trailer or I'll just make it in time to see that "movie" thing :rolleyes: . That reminds me--speaking of the KL discussion--the one that took me the longest time to figure out after I started posting at Imladris was Oz. I thought, "Are they saying they live in a place that's out of touch with reality?" :confused: :p

Some Try 17 Spoilers:






tg-thanks for the thought provoking post. Regarding the "deer" comment I thought he figured that out from several clues including Lisa's comment about saying sorry, Brad's comment (I'm paraphrasing) about Jane having a biological weakness for the leather biker type, and Jane's comments about Steve, uh, 'messing' her up. Maybe it's simplistic but I thought Jones had the realization of what happened in the hospital just before he confronted Steve.

I like your take on Lisa's always being on stage. Makes sense to me.

Another thing I liked about Try 17 was that the relationships and conversations felt "gender real". In real life, when sexuality is (supposedly) not an issue, there are differences in how men and women relate to each other that, IMO, are rarely shown in movies. I especially liked the dialogue between Brad and Jones while shooting at the beer cans and while fixing the car.
(Very un-stereotypically "wacky downstairs {gay} neighbor"). It kind of reminds me of your screen-cap series on Frodo and Sam turning in unison to look at Rosie.

The RoTK trailer and the heart-stoppingly gorgeous WB Frodo pics that Blossom posted are ............... (my brain is frozen)

I'm jealous of those watching the trailer in full theatre screen, I hope you're enjoying it! Then you can come home and download the Asian version and watch it again and again.

edit-two last Try 17 comments after watching a few scenes over:

1.) I stick with my "deer" theory

2.) Originally posted by tgshaw
I watched Try 17 straight through last night, and I'm afraid the DVD just made me like it--and Jones--more. I found the love scene even more touching and beautiful. [/B]
I've just realized that the scene before and after the "love scene" are just as much, if not more, about (unselfish) love. Jones has certainly grown. As much as I preferred "Try 17" to "all i want", IMO this movie is at it's heart neither about acting your age (nor losing your virginity), nor about selfishly getting what you want. Somewhere there is a good title for this movie. But hey, better a good movie with an unfortunate title than vice versa.



I thought KL was "King Lamoni" :D Seriously:o

was browsing at The Bag End Inn and saw these amazing pictures by the same artist. Well worth a look:

BLOSSOM - I just had to tell you what a coincidence it is that amongst those pics was 'A Little Rest'. Last weekend my computer crashed and I lost everything on my hard drive. I won't dwell too much on this horror story but I have since been frantically searching for the sources of all my pics etc. This pic was one of the things uppermost in my mind because it is one of my favourite pieces of Frodo/Sam artwork but I just couldn't remember where I'd originally found it - I did look at BEI but couldn't see it. Anyway I decided to take a break and quickly pop into the Faculty to see what was happening - and there it was, like a miracle! This pic was based on an actual photograph taken of two soldiers in the trenches during the first world war - they are in exactly the same pose. It so encapsulates the tragedy of Frodo and Sam's plight, two little hobbits trapped in a nightmare not of their making - just like those poor soldiers in WW1. Thank you for posting it and saving me a lot more searching:)

As a follow-up to the"Try 17" discussion, I might mention that the film has now been released on video and DVD in Scandinavia. I noticed that by pure coincidence in the local supermarket. The release has not been surrounded by any marketing whatsoever;- even the home page of the distributor and the main movie site for new films and videos do not mention it at all.

However, the film retains its original name, at least, in this particular release. The cover has a nice pic of EJW and the text reads: "No sex in 3 years...? TRY 17" Thereby spoiling a punchline right away, but using "Sex" as a fire-sure way to draw *some* attention to it. Oh well.......

Anyway, one of the extra features listed is "behind-the-scenes". Anyone seen that?

As a Scandinavian Faculty member, will you be getting the DVD and researching the behind the scenes to report to the rest of us?:)

Shireling - Nice to see you.

What a coincidence about that 'little rest' pic!:eek: - Cue 'Twilight Zone' music. :) I was so impressed with those paintings, and that one in particular is just heart-breaking. Zoom in on Sam's face and it's so perfectly Sean/FilmSam and his expression there to me says, 'I know you're hurting, but I'm here and I'll never leave you.' It's almost like a father comforting a sick or frightened child. Sob! It SO represents Frodo and Sam's desperate situation and the strength and depth of their relationship. I'm hoping we're going to see moments like this in the film, and I know Elijah and Sean will break our hearts. I would love to see the original WW1 photograph that inspired this painting.

I'm so sorry to hear about your computer crash.:( It's terrible when something like that happens, and you lose so many treasured pics, articles etc. It happened to us last year, and now I always put anything I want to keep straight onto CD - just in case. I'm sure you have most of your treasured Frodo/EW items saved, but if there's anything you've lost - video clips etc - that you cannnot find, I'm sure there are plenty of people here who would be only too pleased to help if they can - myself included.

Btw Shireling - Over 50 posts now - are you going to get an avatar soon?

I managed to download the ROTK trailer yesterday - it is very dark, but OMG! I cannot wait for tomorrow to see the clearer official version. Even hubby said it gave him goosebumps watching the poor quality one!

Roll on December! :)

I wasn't planning on seeing Secondhand Lions (mostly to see the trailer) but my husband surprised me by suggesting it so we went today. When we got there, there were three (newly placed) ROTK posters up (the Frodo Poster, Arwen and Aragorn) right next to the Secondhand Lions poster. We paid our money and settled in, watched several trailers followed by a non-RoTK New Line trailer and then the movie started. NO ROTK trailer!!!! We just sat there in shock for about 15 minutes.

Afterwards I spoke with the manager who seemed totally clueless about it but did give me the good news that they will be showing the re-release of the Fellowship and Two Towers prior to RoTK. (squee!!) I will be e-mailing his manager to see if I can get some sort of rain check for today.

*******SO, if you're going to Secondhand Lions and expecting to the the Return of the King trailer, call the theatre first!!******

I live in a large city and certainly would have gone to one of the other, oh 100 or so, theatres if I'd known. The local paper did have a story on the trailer being shown with the SL movie this weekend here. :( :(

Anyway, at least we have the Asian version. We recently got a DVD-ROM :):) and copied it onto there but can't get it to play on our DVD player that's connected to the TV. Any suggestions? We got DVD+RW discs at the suggestion of Best Buy but they don't seem to be the right kind to play on the TV (but do work on the DVD-ROM so at least I can save memory off the hard drive).

I guess this was off topic but I wanted to commiserate with people who could understand.

BTW, my hubby registered at Khazaddum and has enjoyed Faculty stuff so, although I'll be (pleasantly) surprised if he posts here anytime soon, we do have at least one male lurker. :)
Maybe my King Lamoni mention will bring him out of lurkdom if he's out there.

Oops--realized later that I should have used a:
Try 17 Spoilers warning





Originally posted by kuduk
...Regarding the "deer" comment I thought he figured that out from several clues including Lisa's comment about saying sorry, Brad's comment (I'm paraphrasing) about Jane having a biological weakness for the leather biker type, and Jane's comments about Steve, uh, 'messing' her up. Maybe it's simplistic but I thought Jones had the realization of what happened in the hospital just before he confronted Steve.
This is really what I was trying to say, too, but probably got too simplistic in my post. Yes, I do think Jones put all the pieces together just before he confronted Steve (there's still something of an "ah-ha" in his voice--and with Elijah delivering the line, I'm inclined to trust that). Another piece I'd add is the sexy photo of Lisa, along with Lisa saying that Jane took pictures of her once "and now she hates me." There are probably more that don't come to mind right now--or that I haven't even noticed yet!

IMHO, Lisa's line about saying she was sorry was confusing to Jones, because he didn't understand what she was talking about (neither did I :p ). So I think his reply about it being the deer's fault was meant as more of a cover-up, or a way to get past the point in the conversation (hmmm... new thought... Would Lisa, for some reason, have wanted him to ask what she was talking about there? She's usually pretty good about knowing exactly what she's saying/doing.). What I was trying to say in my previous post was that I don't think he really thought Lisa was apologizing for the car accident, but that he realized it must be about something else--even if he didn't know what the something else was at that point. So he filed it away with all the other stray bits of information he's picking up.

There are a couple of reasons that I can completely believe that all this cogitating and puzzle-solving was going on in Jones's brain. First, he does care about Jane, and IMHO when you truly care about someone you tend to connect things to that person.

The second reason goes back to a previous statement about him being a writer, and so a good observer (which he talks about in the first letter we see/hear him type to his dad). Philip K. Dick said that every [fiction] writer has to be a conspiracy theorist. Now, Dick was truthfully paranoid, but IMHO that statement still fits--readers expect all the pieces to fit together in fiction, even though that seldom happens in real life. On one level, this movie could almost be looked at as a commentary on writing--there are also a lot of stray bits in the story that never add up to anything, and Jones has to sort out what fits from what doesn't and add the pieces together. I really hope he's not putting that typewriter back into the trunk forever :) .

I especially liked the dialogue between Brad and Jones while shooting at the beer cans and while fixing the car.
(Very un-stereotypically "wacky downstairs {gay} neighbor").
I also liked Brad--and the two of them together. At first I wondered if Brad was acting kind of like a surrogate father to Jones, but that didn't seem to fit--after watching the movie again and thinking about it some more, IMVHO he acts more like a "surrogate older brother" to him. The more I think about how he interacts with Jones, the more that makes sense to me--does anyone else see that in their relationship?

I've just realized that the scene before and after the "love scene" are just as much, if not more, about (unselfish) love. Jones has certainly grown. As much as I preferred "Try 17" to "all i want", IMO this movie is at it's heart neither about acting your age (nor losing your virginity), nor about selfishly getting what you want. Somewhere there is a good title for this movie. But hey, better a good movie with an unfortunate title than vice versa.
Yes, yes, yes, to all of this (including the last sentence :) ). After Maeg mentioned the "behind the scenes" feature on the Scandinavian DVD I checked mine and, of course, the U.S. version doesn't have that :rolleyes: . The only added feature we've really got is the original trailer. If someone saw only that trailer, they'd think Jones spent 90% of the movie "making out" with Ma, Lisa, or Jane (we see the dream sequence with Ma without being told it's a dream, and the sheet-draped fantasy "art instructor" without being told that she's a fantasy). This is one more thing that makes me wonder if the marketers didn't think the movie would attract enough of an audience on its own terms. It's as if they wanted to take something that really isn't "just another teenage movie" and make it seem like one.

Along this same line, I liked that the movie didn't have "getting Jane" be the turning point for Jones, but rather finding out the truth about his father--including the phone conversation with his mother after he drops Jane off at Steve's. He says good-bye to his fantasies, plays country for ska-boy, etc., before Jane comes back. Instead, the breakthrough comes when he tries to type his first "post-revelation" letter to his father.

One question regarding Jane coming back--interesting that she's heading the same direction Jones is. Had she come back to find him gone and so followed him? I've never gotten the feeling that he was heading back to Steve's to "rescue" her--he just seemed too carefree to be really heading anywhere (and, of course, the motorcycle would never had made it!)--but what did others pick up there?




End of Try 17 Spoilers
-----------



P.S. I did see the trailer twice yesterday,with Secondhand Lions in-between; don't tell the multiplex police :eek: . The theater had the Aragorn, Gandalf and Frodo posters up in the lobby :) . SHL reminded me of Try 17 in one way--it started out generic and got better (but it took it most of the movie to get to the "better" part). I am gaining some respect for HJO--checked his filmography at IMDb and at age 14 he's been as much of a "working actor" as EJW was at that age. Does emotions well, too, although he could learn to nuance them a bit more.


And "Hi!" to kuduk's husband :) !

Will you all allow me a moment of immaturity (with promises of more to follow, I'm sure)? You all probably already know this, but I just heard Dominic on the Sharon Osbourn show say that Andy Serkus was given the "second" "One Ring." Dominic said Elijah was really annoyed (don't know if he meant seriously or jokingly annoyed)--- and that Frodo and Gollum would have to fight it out. (Or some such). Okay--I'm already in a fever pitched tizzy--not yet having seen the trailer but jazzed up enough reading the descriptions. So I admit that I'm ready to be reactive. They may think it's cute giving Gollum/Andy the ring because after all the character really really really wanted it. But But But....it may be a little thing...but I think Elijah should have that ring and Elijah alone. I admit that I am presuming to feel indignant on his behalf.

Okay. Immature. Pout. The Ring's evil anyway...who wants it....oh well. This is probably old news ..... but this is the first I heard of it and I can't very well complain about it at the dinner table....

Alyon, if it is any consolation, I thought the exact same thing :p when I heard that little bit of news on the osborne gab show. Indignant for Elijah's sake...yup, that's what I thought. maybe you should come have dinner at my house!

I finally got to see the trailer (without subtitles, and in a clear version), and I am psyched. But I know this is not the place to discuss it...

((kuduk)) what a drag that the theater didn't show it! :mad: New Line definitely owes you one!

And nice observations, kuduk and tg, on the dynamic between Jones and Lisa/Brad/Steve/Jane in Try Seventeen. You are inspiring me to watch the movie again. ;)

Darn kuduk, that sucks that you didn't get to see the trailer at the cinema. At least here, we know that trailers seem to be apended to any which movie at random, so while I can hope to see the RotK trailer if I go watch a movie at the theatre, I don't expect to see it. I never did see either the FotR or TTT trailers on the large screen.

Originally posted by kuduk
Anyway, at least we have the Asian version. We recently got a DVD-ROM :):) and copied it onto there but can't get it to play on our DVD player that's connected to the TV. Any suggestions?

Depends on the format of the file. DVD players that connect to TVs can't play Quicktime format, but should be able to play .mpeg files. Check your DVD player to see what video formats it can play. :)

Hello, kuduk's hubby! :cool:


Quick update on EW news: 'Neuwirth, Graham, Hawke Join "Celebrity Charades" LAByrinth Theatre Company Benefit, Sept. 29' (http://www.playbill.com/news/article/81889.html)

Very, very, very small images from wireimage.com. His hair ... oh man, what do we do about that hair?

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/1565595.jpg

originally posted by peaceweaver
And nice observations, kuduk and tg, on the dynamic between Jones and Lisa/Brad/Steve/Jane in Try Seventeen. You are inspiring me to watch the movie again.

Exactly what I was thinking. :cool:

Originally posted by ainon
Very, very, very small images from wireimage.com. His hair ... oh man, what do we do about that hair?


Point and laugh?

:D

Sheryl

Originally posted by ainon
Quick update on EW news: 'Neuwirth, Graham, Hawke Join "Celebrity Charades" LAByrinth Theatre Company Benefit, Sept. 29' (http://www.playbill.com/news/article/81889.html)
Eldalieva and Meryl Marie were there. Details in the Harem.

I was offline or on limited internet time, but I skimmed through a couple pages here and I think I caught someone wishing tg a happy birthday. So happy belated birthday, tg!

Mel

Originally posted by ainon
Very, very, very small images from wireimage.com. His hair ... oh man, what do we do about that hair?

from Sheryl
Point and laugh?
I wish I could, but it hurts too much. First the buzz cut, now this. It's like he's trying out for some kind of Worst Hair award. I really hope this is only a temporary trend to fend away LOTR teenage groupies, and that he will return to normal once this huge blockbuster thing is all past and he can go on to some more routine roles. I really hope that. I really, really hope that.

Sigh. He has such beautiful hair, if he'd just leave it alone. Let's all hope he gets a role where he has to have normal hair, and that it's a long shoot, with callbacks needed months later. Perhaps this Francis of Assissi thing. * hope hope hope*

Uhm.... wouldn't the Francis role require a tonsure? :eek: :D


I was surprised to hear there was no behind the scenes on the American version of Try 17. Hmmm.....maybe I *should* contemplate buying it?


Still waiting for the full&detailed account of Meryl's and Elda's exceptional night out! But I guess the harem'll be the place to go for that.

Originally posted by Alyon
...I just heard Dominic on the Sharon Osbourn show say that Andy Serkus was given the "second" "One Ring." Dominic said Elijah was really annoyed (don't know if he meant seriously or jokingly annoyed)--- and that Frodo and Gollum would have to fight it out. (Or some such)...
I don't know anything about the Sharon Osbourn show (how serious it is, etc.), but I admit to taking anything Dom says with enough grains of salt for a good marguerita :p , especially if it involves joking about Billy and/or Elijah. So it's kind of hard to say what the truth is (this is the first I've heard of it).

I'm not sure what he'd mean by the "second One Ring." If only one was used during filming, then Elijah's got it--but he did get it before all the reshoots and pick-ups were done (at the end of primary shooting, IIRC, but I could be mistaken). If Andy got one that was used during some of the reshoots/pick-ups, I can't imagine that would seriously upset Elijah.

And if Dom said something about Frodo and Gollum fighting it out, well, sounds like a typical Dom comment to me; I don't plan to get too upset about it unless something comes from another source. But, then, I didn't see the show, so I don't know what the setting of the remark was. Did he say what he meant by "the second One Ring" :confused: ?

-----------------------

Regarding the hair--mayhaps Elijah spent too much time with Martin Short. Anyone besides me remember Ed Grimley [or something like that]?? A really annoying (purposefully so) Martin Short character who wore short pants and said, "I must say," all the time, and wore his hair exactly like that :p :p !! The other possibility is that EJW's auditioning for a part as a Kewpie doll :) --although in that case he'd have to do something about his lack of chubbiness. ;)

And, Maeg, yes, that's one of the points for making a movie of Francis' early life--you could have a good movie, with a very satisfying conclusion, and still end it before he receives the tonsure ;) .

---------

BTW, for the next few weeks I'll be dropping in but hoping no one takes it the wrong way if I don't reply to--or even notice :o --everything. The visits will mostly be very quick ones, and usually from the office (which basically means the avatar won't be changing as often :rolleyes: ). But I'll end tonight with a "quick" thanks to Mel for the birthday greetings :) .

Re: the hair

Ainon, Mariole, Tg - yes, you are right... Elijah's hair is, er, how shall I put it...- strange.

But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. If we were a bunch of crested tits we would love his hairdo!

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Haubenmeise_klein.jpg

Right :D :p ?!

TG-- I checked the video tape and Dom didn't actually use the word "second".

This is what he said as best I can get it down when Sharon Osbourn asked who had the ring:

Dom: "Elijah!...But you know what they did though this year? It was really cool. They gave Elijah the ring at the end of the first film...and then they gave Andy Serkus, the guy who played Gollum, the ring at the end of refilming this year. And Elijah was really really annoyed that they had (a few words I couldn't get as S.O. was talking...but something about two rings, I think). So now Gollum got one and Frodo's got one, and they got to fight for it....So I thought that was cool." Then he went on to talk about how all the hobbits were given a set of feet.

So alright. As much as I like Andy, this niggles at my sense of proportion or something. The world is just not quite right with Andy/Gollum having Elijah/Frodo's prize. I'll just have to stew about it until something better comes along. Oh yeah. There is the hair ... that also is not dinner table talk as my 15 year old tells me "So what? He experiments. That's great." She admires him for not being wrapped up in his looks. She's right. I like him for that, too. I really do. But I can't help hoping it grows out just enough before the tour....

I will meditate on Whiteling's picture of the crested tit. And adjust my perspective....yes, now...with a little concentration I can truly believe the hair is .... ... okay. If I'm good, by next week I'll be loving it. Sure I will.

Thanks for the welcome, Prim. Nice to meet you, too. And thanks, Peaceweaver, I'm ready for dinner... And for movie night with Ainon---(we have two or three EN movies out from the library at this very moment. You won't mind seeing them again?).

Whiteling's crested tit led me to the unavoidable conclusion ;) . We now know what breed of penguin Mumbles belongs to :D :

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/CoE/109845.jpg

Awwwwww... they're so cute!

I believe there were several different sizes of the Ring used during filming, so it's entirely possible that Andy was given one. But I generally don't believe anything that rascal ;) Dom says. Now if Sean Astin said it, I'd be more likely to assume it was true...

Mel

Augh! Whiteling! I avoided a coffee spew by mere instants as I puzzled over the "crested tit" -- and then your birdie came on the screen. BIG belly laugh! Oh, I love you! :k

Alyon, I don't think we're required to like the hair. I think liking it is optional. I just browsed the comments section over at Always & Forever (I'm eating dinner at the moment, so I get to browse) and some of the younger crowd are just gah-gah over the mohawk. "It's soooooooooo cute!" So it's probably an age-related thing. Personally I don't like the spikey-up hair either, but it's not up to me. In fact, I'm breaking my own rule by discussing this. I made a rule with myself that whatever Elijah does with his life is none of my business even remotely. So when I get twitchy and worry that he's drinking too much or smoking or pinning safety pins through his skin (actually, I've never worried about that, it's just an example), I tell myself firmly to BUTT OUT! It's none of my business.

But that won't stop me from looking longingly at pictures of long-haired Mikey in Ice Storm. Sigh. I'm a child of the seventies, and I know my preferred look. (shaggy)

Tg, those penguins are disturbingly reminiscent of the charades. You realize I will never be able to watch Mumbles without thinking of this whole incident. Sometimes I regret how good the Faculty is at research. :p

I can easily see PJ giving Andy a ring. He probably is trying to make up to him for cutting every single second of his performance out of the movie and replacing him with a CGI character. Whether Elijah was really upset by it ... :rolleyes: Thanks for posting that, Alyon!

from Maeglian
Uhm.... wouldn't the Francis role require a tonsure?
Uh, you got me! Through the heart! LOL. I admit I was imagining Young!Sexy!Francis at one of his wild parties, being incredibly charasmatic in a completely plot-driven way to show how he could later become the leader of this particular sect. I admit I never mentally got past the wine swigging and lopping off of enemies' heads. But then, the tonsure would be a weird hair reversal of the current mohawk, so maybe the Zen of the universe demands that Elijah be so shorn. It would certainly fit in with the "experimental hair" phase he seems to be going through.