Khazad-Dum - The Faculty Lounge: An Elijah Wood Discussion

Alyon

01-01-2004, 08:30 PM

Yikes!!

I take a computer break for a couple of days and I come back to so many wonderful posts I can't catch up--not with company downstairs waiting for me. But Happy New Year everyone!
I started taking notes as I skimmed through latest posts, but I don't have time to address them all. But oh what lovely pictures!!

Quickly though--Niad, I also love the Mary Stewart Crystal Cave books. I haven't seen Excalubur---but I do love your idea of Elijah playing Merlin based on my reading of those books. I love Arthurian tales. Merlin is quite the thing in those books.

TGShaw --- I agree with what you said about Elijah hedging on whether Frodo is "the" hero, as he did at the collectorama (?), or "a" hero as he did in one recent interview during which he got very animated about Frodo's sacrifice and yet backed away when asked if Frodo is a hero. The interviewer took it as modesty, and I do too. Elijah has said he identifies with Frodo--I think he is just too modest to say much about Frodo being a hero. I think it is just modesty, because he obviously admires the character very much.

yeah, SCS--angels are often rather androgynous, aren't they?? Some of the sexiest men and women around have often been rather androgynous, in my opinion.

Here's a little deviation from Frodo (but not from EW). I saw Seabiscuit the other night and suddenly I understand why Elijah has had people coming up to him thinking he is Toby McGuire. Toby's look has changed in Seabiscuit. His hair is dyed and swept up off of his head, and he is rather gaunt so that his cheekbones are rather prominant. And of course he does have nice blue eyes. I didn't recognize him right away as Toby McGuire--I could definitely see people looking at Elijah and thinking it was him in that movie.

OH!! WELCOME Lady Wendy!! You found a good place in which to start the new year!!

(((Esmeralda)))--what a lovely New year card!!:k Two combinations, Frodo and bubbly that I don't mind starting the new year with.

(((deluby))) The pictures!! ( ((Ainon))) The ad!!! :k

Thank you all!! (now away I run).
Alyon

naiad

01-01-2004, 08:54 PM

to me it [the smile] was to his companions and said 'Don't worry, I'll be alright.' - sort of a lifting of the sorrows for a moment - though I am not sure if that makes sense. In that little nod, he lets them know that this is his choice and he is glad to make it and that he knows they will be alright in the end too. Beautifully put, Ariel. That's just how I saw it. Rikka - I know what you mean about the 'pink cherub', but in the film, this shot was NOT was one of those, IMO - what Maeglian said ;) .

Ainon - That screen cap is amazing! The torture in the eyes is hard to bear, definitely reminiscent of St. Sebatian. Thanks for posting it!

And thanks Deluby for those shots from the UK special. Perhaps we'll see those scenes in the EE edition. Were they actually played out with dialog on the telly? If so, can you describe for us pleease? For instance, what's behind Frodo's besotted look at the elvin broach, and I'm DYING to know what's behind the agony in the last shot in the series.

Tg, thanks for saying this, (and cleaning up after me, my posts always have loose ends :rolleyes: -
I feel compelled to defend Elijah a bit by putting that "Sam's the real hero" statement in context. It was in a joint interview with Sean (at ComicCon, IIRC). Sean said Frodo was the real hero, and Elijah said Sam was the real hero. I believe that at the time we had a fair amount of discussion here about how perfectly "right" that was, since the characters they played would have said exactly the same thing--and they were sitting right next to each other. On the other hand, that was an interesting addition about SA's comment, Ariel, and I quite agree with you.

Zkgrumpy - Hullo neighbor! As you sped north out of Boston to your lotr-loving nephews, you passed through my home town and on up passed where I now live! :k

Re: EW's deft handling of those tricksy questions about his views on politics and drug taking - Poised between his innate honesty, courtesy, and a modicum of self-preservation, he answers with patience and grace. Way to go Elijah!

Esie - Loved your Frodo toast - thanks, and To You!

Happy New Year {{{All Here}}}}!!!
(a little late to those across the Water)

Here're links to two lovely Lij pics in case you missed them:

http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1317&perpage=25&pagenumber=43
(go to Hobmom's post on 26 December)

http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1317&perpage=25&pagenumber=44
(look for white.jpg)

honeyelf

01-01-2004, 09:26 PM

We went to see "Peter Pan," and it was OK. The lead, Jeremy Sumpter I believe, is very cute but I thought his acting could have been better.

What's the first thing my husband says when we leave the theater?
"I was sitting there the whole time thinking 'Peter should have been played by Lij!'" :D

Later I asked him if he really thought so, and he said "Yes! The movie could have used some excellent acting!" :D

I guess he's one blessed with "eyes to see!" Actually I was speculating with Alyon (Hullo!) that my husband is developing his own sort of fascination with Elijah. He's watched that Conan interview more than once. Maybe he's just responding to having spent nearly a year with Elijah being practically an invisible guest, in my head at least.

I've snapped a twig.

Honey!

kuduk

01-02-2004, 08:10 AM

Hi all. I hope you had nice holidays. I sure did. I had a lot of nice family time and got to see ROTK 5 times! Its surpassed Fellowship as my favorite movie of all time. I now see it as the visual Readers Digest version. I have to mention that hubby said about Aragorn and Arwens kiss at the coronation (as finally the beginning of their consummation): not Try 17, try 90.

It wasnt until the 4th or 5th time that I really appreciated EWs performance as a whole. I hope the Academy isnt slow like me.

For Christmas my lovely hubby gave me the Huck Finn DVD, the LOTR movie soundtrack set, the BBC LOTR and Hobbit on CD, a lovely hardback set of LOTR, the LOTR Trivia game, and Tolkiens World book of illustrations. Relatives gave me the TTT Calendar (I had the ROTK calendar last year, go figure) and the ROTK Visual Companion (Im making my wish list for ROTK EE scenes.):)
I guess Ill be happily busy.:)

This is my farewell post in the Faculty. Other commitments prevail. It's been fun. I might pop in to the Trilogy thread from time to time.

ainon

01-02-2004, 08:35 AM

Welcome, Lady Wendy! You're right at home here. :)

Rikka ... oh dear. I'd hoped that you would have seen the movie by now! ((((Rikka))))

Kuduk - a farewell?! :eek: :( Well, I hope you'll still have time to pop in here too from time to time :) and you'll certainly need ample time to enjoy all the goodies you have there! Take care! :k

Honey, thanks for that pic. I knew the scene looked familiar on screen!

Originally posted by Maeglian
Hmmm.... I couldn't remember that Frodo looked *quite* so much like a chimney-sweep in that scene..... :o :D Well, there's nothing for it but to go and watch the film again. What a drudge! However.... at the risk of sounding like a heretic.... did anyone else than me think that Elijah could have played the final couple of sentences in that scene somewhat more low-key than he did, to even *greater* effect?

That thought definitely crossed my mind on first viewing, but now that I've gotten to love that scene so, whatever opinions I have now would most likely be biased by the sheer angst quotient of strawberries. :D

Hobmom, thanks for sharing the interview, and THANK YOU for those Elijah pics. (((naiad)))

Linked from TORN:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,106175,00.html

The Oscars particularly are so political and it seems to be a popularity contest more than anything, Lord of the Rings star Elijah Wood told Foxnews.com. So often it doesnt seem as if its about the merits of a performance or the merits of a film. Its how good the publicity is behind it or the marketing campaign from Miramax.

Flourish

01-02-2004, 08:57 AM

Ainon, now that I figured out the time difference between us I realize you are quite a night owl! :D

Question for all of you--Remember the spy reports of a tightly-guarded scene with Elijah and Sean that was filmed with minimal crew on a closed set? (Am I remembering this correctly?) Now that we see that the Cirith Ungol scene gets a "G" rating (all ages), what scene do you suppose required a closed set??:confused: Would PJ have closed the set for the Wheel of Fire speech, perhaps, to afford the actors an intimate environment in which to achieve the film's emotional peak?

tgshaw

01-02-2004, 11:51 AM

Welcome to Lady Wendy and welcome back to Rikka!

Kuduk, if you can't post regularly, that doesn't mean you have to stay away!! Please drop in when you have a chance (even if you don't have time to keep up with reading the thread).

Originally posted by Flourish
Now that we see that the Cirith Ungol scene gets a "G" rating (all ages), what scene do you suppose required a closed set??:confused: Would PJ have closed the set for the Wheel of Fire speech, perhaps, to afford the actors an intimate environment in which to achieve the film's emotional peak?
While filming was still going on, there was a report sent by one of the Tolkien language experts working on the movies. He said he "happened" to watch the Cirith Ungol scene being filmed (I remember that specifically, because he talked about the multitude of times Sean had to say the "...in naught but your skin" line before PJ was satisfied with it). If it had really been a closed set, I doubt if someone not involved in the scene would have been allowed to watch.

So, I don't think it would have been CU. I don't have a specific guess as to the scene, but IIRC there were occasions that sets were closed when the scenes involved something PJ and/or New Line really wanted to keep secret. That might add some more possibilities.

-------------

Interesting article on the Oscars, ainon. I wonder if Elijah felt free to make those comments because he doesn't think he'll be a contender? As the article said, I'd imagine it would be harder for someone who continually says negative things about the Oscars to be given one (not that Elijah's done that; he's someone who very much "pays his dues," which the industry usually likes). I did notice in one of Sean A.'s interviews that I read recently (possibly the IGA one??), that the interviewer made several efforts to get him to say something negative about the Hollywood awards scene, and instead he'd respond by saying how much good the Academy does and how proud he is to be a member of it--well, he is thinking about going into politics some day :p . And, more seriously, it would be a difficult position to be in, IMHO--that is, to be a voting member of an organization that has a history of not recognizing the type of movie he's "plugging" in that same interview.

Lady Wendy

01-02-2004, 01:25 PM

Prim
Maeglian
Alyon
Ainon
Tgshaw
and Honey...
Thank-you all for welcoming me to your lovely Lounge, may all your carpets be hoovered and your furniture well polished !!! :D...
:k

Honey,
BTW, is there truth to the rumor that Elijah was the one they originally wanted for the role? He would have made such a beautiful Peter!

I think I remember reading that somewhere as well...maybe in an interview at A&F most likely...I seem to recall that the reason he was regretfully turned down was because he looked too old...and that pleased him no end, as you can imagine !!!

Hobmom,
Thank-you for posting that little Q & A session, and I have to agree with zkgrumpy as to the banality and /or the irrevelence of the questions asked....
As for his over-diplomatic response to the drugs question...did anyone else immediately think he has been instructed to never admit to taking anything in the least illegal as it would be bad for his image, but at the same time, he's torn because he is inherently a truthful person and doesn't like lying ? - ( you have to admit, with all the time he spends with people in the Indie music scene, at gigs etc, there's very little doubt that he's probably taken a few things in his short, but eventful, life...or I'll eat my hat :D !!! )

I wonder...if any of you here could ask Elijah Wood just one question...what would your question be ???

Rikka,
How hateful not to get to see ROTK yet...how long do you have to wait ? ( Oh, for simultaneous worldwide release...why can't they do it...why, why ???:confused: )

As for that truly delightful smile he gives directly into the camera, at the Grey Havens, this came as a beautiful and very welcome surprise at the end of an emotionally draining three and a half hours....and I agree that the fact that he looks directly at YOU - there in your cinema seat - with such an open, honest, and gentle smile just gets you right in the heart...( talk about Cupid's arrow, this brings new meaning to the phrase " Gets you right there " ...

Kuduk,
Farewell, before I've even said Hello :D !!
Sorry I didn't get to know you better, but de-lurk once in a while and say Hi anyway !!

naiad

01-02-2004, 05:34 PM

Just came across this must-read (critical) commentary on TORN:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/living/articles/2004/01/02/they_took_our_precious/

Sadly, much of it is true, IMO, and, though I admit to having fallen for the movies, ROTK especially, I find little in the article to disagree with. It's worth reading, I think, lest we get carried away by the multi-layered beauty of Elijah's Frodo.

shilohmm

01-02-2004, 06:06 PM

Welcome, Lady Wendy! If I may ask - why was there a link for here at TORC?

Please come back and visit once in a while, kuduk - we're gonna miss our nurse Klingon! ;)

Thanks for the New Year Wishes, Ezzie. :)

Flourish,
Elve kept track of a long list of questions we had going for EW, but as Maeglian says, they were mostly about EW's acting and I don't remember any that were particularly LOTR. But I may have forgotten. :o

originally posted by Lady Wendy
I wonder...if any of you here could ask Elijah Wood just one question...what would your question be ???

I'd want to know if he had kids who were in the movies, whether there'd be anything he would want to do differently from the way his mother handled things - anything he'd prefer they didn't experience that he did. But the problem with that question is that if he *did* have anything he would change, he probably wouldn't admit it out of loyalty to his mother!

Originally posted by naiad
I find little in the article to disagree with.

I read it, but I think the reviewer and I watched different movies. :p I totally disagreed with the motives she gave movie Frodo, for instance. And I liked many of the changes with Aragorn (although of course I am not crazy about the Arwen dying thing). I do rather agree with much of what she says about book Merry and Pippin, though.

Sheryl

naiad

01-02-2004, 06:25 PM

Glad to see a disagreement, Shilohmm :D I guess it is this that you take issue with? -In another bewildering alteration, the tricksy Gollum tries to make Sam look guilty of taking more than his share of the hobbitses' . . . hobbits' depleted stores as they make their perilous way through Mordor, and Frodo falls for it. Frodo falls for it. And then he tells Sam to go home. If in the books the bond between Frodo and Gollum is undeniable, the one between Frodo and Samwise is one nearly as thick as blood, making such a scene impossible.So, you must mean that Frodo does NOT fall for it (discussed earlier in this thread, as I recall). I too prefer to work the scene out that way, but if I hadn't read the books and was not prepared to think much about what was being shown, I suspect I'd take Frodo's response at face value. Of course, a good deal is reclaimed in the Frodo's 'I need you on my side,' speech to Sam. And there are other favorable changes in the film (such as the development of Theoden and Eomer's characters) which build on rather than alter the original. Again, I wonder what those who are not rooted in the books might think of the article (or perhaps it's not relevant in that case).

Alyon

01-02-2004, 07:08 PM

Niad

I have to agree with you--though I am told with more viewings I might feel differently. I am dying to see it more. I am totally won over to the drama and beauty of it, but haven't gotten over certain changes--especially the thematic ones.

this quote from the article that Stormy posted earlier still resonates with me:

"Tolkiens original Frodo, though he starts out a bit naïve, is a morally rich, exceptionally mature character. As he struggles against the rings control, he actually grows in wisdom and moral stature, reflecting what Tolkien called in a letter the theme of the ennoblement (or sanctification) of the humble. And though he is not always able to be as steadfast as Sam, the often overlooked truth is that Sam doesnt have to fight the same battle Frodo does. Which is why Ive always thought that honoring Sam over Frodo honorable and faithful though Sam is is a bit like honoring Simon of Cyrene over Christ.

The comparison isnt such a wild exaggeration as it may appear. The truth is that Frodo has many of the characteristics of a Christ figure, chiefly a willingness to sacrifice himself, to forgive others, and to bear an awful burden for the sake of others. And that hardly means a lack of drama. When the ring takes control of Frodo one final, terrible time at the climax of the story, it is in such sharp contrast to what weve come to expect from him especially without our having been subjected to the kind of foreshadowing so dear to Peter Jacksons heart that we fully grasp the horror of the situation. As Baylor University professor Ralph C. Wood puts it in his new book The Gospel According to Tolkien, Tolkien demonstrates that the mightiest evil can summon forth the very highest good in a character like Frodo, even as it defeats him. Moreover, as the scene plays out, we grasp three truths that are fully in line with Tolkiens deeply Christian imagination: that moral strength can carry us farther than we could have imagined possible; that even the greatest human moral strength cannot stand against the strongest evil (a Christ figure is not Christ, as Tolkien would have been well aware); and that there is a Power in the world greater than we can understand, great enough to save us when we cant save ourselves.

Tolkien emphasized qualities in his hero an iron will, unfathomable courage, humility, selflessness, and wisdom that help to make these points. Jackson and his writers, though they did include all these qualities in some degree, chose to deemphasize them for the sake of their modern conception of psychological drama. Their movies, moving and powerful as they undoubtedly are, are nevertheless the poorer for it."

Gina R. Dalfonzo is a writer for BreakPoint and a graduate student in English at George Mason University.

__________

I am told with more viewings all of this won't bother me. You probably all think me crazy--but I really haven't been able to see it again since the trilogy. I am dying to. I want to. Soon soon soon.

I probably would be changing my mind already if there weren't so many reviews saying Sam is the hero....

ElanorSam

01-02-2004, 11:42 PM

Originally posted by shilohmm

I read it, but I think the reviewer and I watched different movies. :p I totally disagreed with the motives she gave movie Frodo, for instance. And I liked many of the changes with Aragorn (although of course I am not crazy about the Arwen dying thing). I do rather agree with much of what she says about book Merry and Pippin, though.

Sheryl

I agree that the reviewer and I must have watched different movies. And I even disagree with what she says about Merry and Pippin. To quote her : "In Tolkien's version, Merry and Pippin are transformed through war from unsophisticated but far from simple-minded young fellows into the "fearless hobbits with bright swords and grim faces" who will later put things to rights back in the Shire. In Jackson's film, they're reluctant warriors at best. As in "The Two Towers," the director uses them almost exclusively for comic relief, having other soldiers belittle their martial prowess and playing up their weakness for ale."

The comic relief scenes she mentions are at the beginning of ROTK. What about Merry saying he wants to fight? What about Merry's heroism in going with the Riders of Rohan, of staying with Eowyn during the Witch King encounter and stabbing the Witch King? What about Pippin's complete transformation into a very mature and brave hobbit indeed in ROTK, and the way he risks his life to save Faramir? What about Merry and Pippin being THE VERY FIRST ONES to run after Aragorn at the Black Gates? What, was she in the bathroom during all these scenes? By the end of ROTK, Merry and Pippin HAD been transformed into "fearless hobbits with bright swords and grim faces".

ElanorSam

01-02-2004, 11:50 PM

Originally posted by naiad
Glad to see a disagreement, Shilohmm :D I guess it is this that you take issue with? -So, you must mean that Frodo does NOT fall for it (discussed earlier in this thread, as I recall). I too prefer to work the scene out that way, but if I hadn't read the books and was not prepared to think much about what was being shown, I suspect I'd take Frodo's response at face value. Of course, a good deal is reclaimed in the Frodo's 'I need you on my side,' speech to Sam. And there are other favorable changes in the film (such as the development of Theoden and Eomer's characters) which build on rather than alter the original. Again, I wonder what those who are not rooted in the books might think of the article (or perhaps it's not relevant in that case).

Well, those that are not rooted in the books have nothing to compare the movies to, so I think it's not relevant. And I think she's making the sending Frodo back part MUCH too simple. IMHO, it is not simply that Frodo thinks Sam is eating lembas on the sly. Not at all. That is such a simplistic reading of that scene! The sending Sam back part is the culmination of a whole series of scenes, in which we see Frodo worn out by trying to keep the peace between Sam and Gollum, Gollum being the only one who knows the way into Mordor, Gollum playing on Frodo's fears of the ring corrupting everyone by suggesting Sam wants the ring, and then poor Sam, at exactly the wrong moment asking if he can carry the ring to help Frodo out. It's a lot of things together that play into that scene, not something as simple as Frodo being gullible enough to think Sam has eaten too many lembas! And I think non book readers can see that, too. At least my non book reader friends did.

deluby

01-03-2004, 12:11 AM

Welcome, Lady Wendy! :)

Originally posted by whiteling:
Am I right, they are from "The Quest fullfilled - A director's vision"? This documentary was aired here just yesterday and it was lovely!
Yep whiteling, that's the one.

Originally posted by naiad:
Were they actually played out with dialog on the telly? If so, can you describe for us pleease?
No naiad, there were no dialogue in that part, only PJ talking about Elijah.

I've made 2 clips of those, if anyone's interested, you can go to this page and download them there:
Edited couple days later: I've taken down the clips, if anyone still wants them, PM me.
They are zipped .wmv files, one 1.26MB and the other 650KB. I'll leave them up till Sunday night or Monday morning coz I don't know what they'll do to my webspace. ::fingers crossed::

(((((Kuduk))))) Please come and visit us when you have the chance. :)

Have a nice weekend everyone!! :k

Maeglian

01-03-2004, 05:13 AM

(((Kuduk))) - hope you'll look in on us sometimes even if you don't post! :)

I have a lot to say about the review(s), but unfortunately no time right now. Will see if I can get back to it later.

I just *have* to leave you with this link to an interview with Elijah, though. It's great! It covers the topic of mercy - the way he/they saw it and tried to portray in the films, whether Frodo was looking to some "higher power", - and he even discusses the "last smile from the ship!"

One can agree or disagree with the way they saw things or tried to portray them, but it casts much light on what they were thinking when making the films.

A must-read! :)

Elijah interview on RotK (http://promontoryartists.org/lookingcloser/movie%20reviews/Q-Z/returnoftheking-elijahwood.htm)

whiteling

01-03-2004, 05:53 AM

Deluby, it's a mercy to have you with us! :) I've taped the said docu but haven't the technical equipment (apart from the know-how) to share it with the Faculty. Thank you!

(((Kuduk))) - We'll miss you :( ! Please, visit us from time to time. Take care!

WELCOME to Lady Wendy :) !

From naiad: I wonder what those who are not rooted in the books might think of the article.

Naiad, I've read the books (having seen the film first) and I guess I'm one of those who are not so "deeply" in the books. I really can understand most of the objections that have been made in the article and of course there are heavy and cardinal alterations from book to film. As far as I'm concerned I look up to book and film as two separated things. I think, the films are congenial interpretations of Tolkien's book. And that works (at least for me). I feel no difficulty to follow the film-makers vision.

Maeglian - many thanks for the wonderful interview :k !

mel headstrong

01-03-2004, 08:10 AM

I didn't read the article... I'm still on a 4th-viewing-high. But I agree with this:
Originally posted by ElanorSam
The sending Sam back part is the culmination of a whole series of scenes, in which we see Frodo worn out by trying to keep the peace between Sam and Gollum, Gollum being the only one who knows the way into Mordor, Gollum playing on Frodo's fears of the ring corrupting everyone by suggesting Sam wants the ring, and then poor Sam, at exactly the wrong moment asking if he can carry the ring to help Frodo out.
And also, I think, Sam's increasingly-violent dealings with Gollum. Leading up to the scene in which Frodo sends Sam home, we had Sam calling Gollum names in TTT, then Sam hitting Gollum after he overhears Gollum's pool discussion, then Sam pulling his sword out when Gollum reaches for Frodo on the stairs, and finally Sam hitting Gollum repeatedly during the lembas argument. On the 4th viewing, it seemed as though Frodo was also reacting to the escalating violence (though Sam's offer to help with the Ring was clearly what tipped the balance).

The more I think about it, the more I wonder how much of Frodo's decision to send Sam home was Ring-induced paranoia, and how much was concern for Sam -- concern that the Ring was getting to Sam. There's Frodo's response to Sam's increasingly violent behavior, there's the way Frodo tells Gollum that he has to "destroy the Ring... for both our sakes" after Frodo nearly throttles Gollum. And there's the way Frodo tells Sam that the Ring would destroy him in the Tower of CU.

And in the back of my head, I wonder how much Frodo remembers Galadriel's warning that the Ring would destroy them all?

I wonder if people who haven't read the books might actually see Frodo's motives more clearly -- those of us who have read the books have layers of interpretation of the books between ourselves and the movie, and things that aren't in the book are very jarring. But I think Frodo's development in the movie is very internally consistent.

Mel

ainon

01-03-2004, 09:48 AM

Hello ElanorSam and welcome to the Faculty! I've always enjoyed reading your posts. It's a pleasure that you'd pop in here. :)

I don't believe I'll want to read that review. If the reviewer thinks that of Billy Boyd's Pippin then I know for a fact that she and I weren't watching the same movie! :p

Anyway, I agree with what Elanor and mel said about Frodo and the Stairs lembas scene.

Spoiler: Book reference

I'd just add that in my opinion, if you're talking about an audience that has simply watched the three movies without getting the very important point about what the Ring does to the people come near it, and this audience then superficially accepts that Frodo is merely gullible to Gollum's trickery, then that same audience is unlikely to appreciate the dynamics that of a "Thief!" scene in the CU after Sam has gone through all the trouble to going to rescue Frodo. There's no way that Frodo could ever be redeemed in the eyes of a superficial audience then, no matter how good Elijah's acting or how faithful the dialogue - the sheer hurt in Sam's eyes will ensure that! So to me, shifting the dynamics of that moment in the book to the Stairs in the movie does the perfect job of maintaining the essential spirit of the book, while allowing every level of the audience to understand both Frodo and Sam.

/Book Spoiler

Deluby - THANK YOU!! :k :k :k We even get Elijah talking about the post-Moria tear scene. Ooh. Brilliant.

Maeg, thanks for the interview. Great stuff there - covers practically most of what we would ask too. Except I'm sure we would have phrased the questions better. ;) I especially liked what Elijah had to say about mercy. Fitting too, that the interview would end with a question about his last smile.

Originally posted by Lady Wendy

As for that truly delightful smile he gives directly into the camera, at the Grey Havens, this came as a beautiful and very welcome surprise at the end of an emotionally draining three and a half hours....

I'd always imagined that the perfect ending to the movies for me would be a shot of Frodo smiling, probably as he gazes upon the green shores of Valinor. What RotK the movie gave me was even better - Frodo smiling at his
friends, and well, smiling at us. Perfect. :)

Ariel

01-03-2004, 10:05 AM

Originally posted by ainon
if you're talking about an audience that has simply watched the three movies without getting the very important point about what the Ring does to the people come near it, and this audience then superficially accepts that Frodo is merely gullible to Gollum's trickery, then that same audience is unlikely to appreciate the dynamics that of a "Thief!" scene in the CU after Sam has gone through all the trouble to going to rescue Frodo.
Exactly. I had a post to that effect in the ROTK thread too. As much as that scene initally grates, I had come to realize what they were doing with it and no longer have any issue with it. Sure, it makes it so that one of my favorite scenes (Frodo, with sword advanced,... *swoon*!) was out - because why would Frodo stand against Shelob when he was the only one in the cave and didn't have to protect Sam - but I still have that scene in the book and can imagine it. ;)

To any who might be interested, the harem now has a website of its own. Just a couple of pages that include an explanation of what it is and some links to the archive and the thread and such. It is just starting out and is a bit light on content, but I am pretty proud of it. If anyone would like to see it, PM me and I will link you (it links to some non-pg sites so I am not going to include the link here).

Ariel

naiad

01-03-2004, 11:01 AM

{{{Faculty}}} for the last bunch of considered, articulate, and thought-provoking posts. :k

Maeglian - Thanks for linking us to that excellent interview. Elijah's ability to subtly correct any skewed assumptions of the interviewers and then to so well-express his answers to difficult questions always amazes me (though, more on this below). Also, your reactions to any interview (if you get around to posting them :) ) would I'm sure be interesting.

Deluby - Thanks for the exceprts from the special. Any one know were we might find a complete version? (I'll check the frodoandsam site).

ElanorSam

01-03-2004, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by ainon
Hello ElanorSam and welcome to the Faculty! I've always enjoyed reading your posts. It's a pleasure that you'd pop in here. :)

I'd just add that in my opinion, if you're talking about an audience that has simply watched the three movies without getting the very important point about what the Ring does to the people come near it, and this audience then superficially accepts that Frodo is merely gullible to Gollum's trickery, then that same audience is unlikely to appreciate the dynamics that of a "Thief!" scene in the CU after Sam has gone through all the trouble to going to rescue Frodo. There's no way that Frodo could ever be redeemed in the eyes of a superficial audience then, no matter how good Elijah's acting or how faithful the dialogue - the sheer hurt in Sam's eyes will ensure that! So to me, shifting the dynamics of that moment in the book to the Stairs in the movie does the perfect job of maintaining the essential spirit of the book, while allowing every level of the audience to understand both Frodo and Sam.

Hi, Ainon. Thanks for the welcome! I was blown away by Elijah in ROTK, so have been doing a bit of posting over here, where I am with kindred spirits in my feelings about this amazing actor!

Great post. I especially agree with your comment above. Some in the general audience would NEVER have liked Frodo after that, so I think they made a wise choice in altering the scene and moving it forward.

tgshaw

01-03-2004, 11:59 AM

Welcome, ElanorSam :) !

Originally posted by ainon
Anyway, I agree with what Elanor and mel said about Frodo and the Stairs lembas scene.
Same here, especially with the effect of Galadriel's statement that "One by one it will destroy them all." All--Sam's the last one and now Frodo sees signs that Sam's starting to fall. Even if some of Frodo's worry is Ring-induced paranoia, it's not entirely unreasonable: Sam's getting more violent with Gollum, then asks to carry the Ring. Frodo has Galadriel's words in his mind, and he doesn't want things to end up with Sam as they did with Boromir. In fact, he could very easily hear echoes of Boromir's "If you would but lend me the Ring" in Sam's "I don't want to keep it." Frodo also has the memory of how, even in Rivendell, the Ring could make him an enemy to Bilbo. If it could do it with Bilbo in Rivendell, it could certainly do it with Sam on the borders of Mordor. With Frodo already under too much strain to cope with the fights between Gollum and Sam, how could he hope to deal with a really Ring-obsessed Sam?

It might be harder for people who know the books to connect the scene with Galadriel's words, since that statement--and, really, the whole use of the idea within the story--is original to the movies. So IMHO it's one of those things that wouldn't work if you took the scene and stuck it in the middle of the book, but makes sense within the movies.

And, personally, I think Gollum was the only one who thought his little "trick" with the lembas actually worked--it was a way for the movie to set up a confrontation between Sam and Gollum, and to provide an impetus to send Sam back up the stairs; I don't think it did much beyond that.

Even the first time I saw the movie, the only words of Frodo's in that scene that sounded possibly Ring-induced to me were "No, it's you." That line seems to have an air of paranoia in the way it's delivered (trusting in Elijah's delivery there :) ). But when he actually says, "Go home," IMVHO he just seems weary and disheartened. Galadriel's statement was meant to make him see that he had to leave the Fellowship and finish the quest on his own, and it seems to be coming true very literally. (And, again, a consideration that isn't present in the book.)

naiad

01-03-2004, 12:14 PM

I agree with the above.

ElanorSam - Look forward to checking out your posts at the ROTK thread :) .

Re: Elijah's segration of goodandpure/Hobbits and evil/Sauron (in the recent linked interview and elsewhere) - I don't think I ever saw Tolkien's universe quite so simplistically, even at Lij's age. Good and evil - or at least their potential - can be latent in each opposite, and the movie doesn't really overlook that either. EW probably (based on his customary perception) knows this but simplifies matters to focus on the interview question. Any other opinions?

Hobmom

01-03-2004, 01:50 PM

Since the ballots for Oscar nominations went out to Academy members the other day I have sent an email to the Academy about our Oscar for Elijah Petition today. Though we can still sign it till next week.

Here is what I sent to the Oscar folks....

"Dear Academy Members,

This is to inform you of an independently run online petition to ask you to seriously consider a Best Actor Nomination for Elijah Wood for his excellent performance as Frodo in 'Return of the King'.

This is the link to the petition which will remain active for one more week.

http://www.petitiononline.com/EliOscar/petition.html

It has already received over 2600 signatures and comments from people all over the world who appreciate Elijah Wood's talent and hard work on the Lord of the Rings Trilogy and 'Return of the King', especially.

This petition is not connected to Elijah Wood or his management but was run by private citizens."

I hope it helps just a little to get them to seriously think of him for a nomination.

Lady Wendy

01-03-2004, 02:21 PM

Hello again..
Shilohmm,
" If I may ask - why was there a link for here at TORC? "

Well, there is a thread there called "Frodo's Kitchen", where all of us Frodo-obsessed ladies go to talk and analyse to death all the various complicated aspects of Frodo's Quest and the devastating efffect it had upon his psyche, and the chat there is not at all dissimilar to this thread...

We also have another thread called "The Green Dragon Inn", which is much more for light-hearted banter, everyday natter and the odd swooning session...( you know how it is !!! )...and, of course, parties and celebrations are held in the pub too...

One of the ladies who posts regularly there ( not Honeyelf, I hasten to add :D ) obviously lurks here every so often, because she linked us to here,with the comment that there were quite the most interesting Frodo/Elijah discussions going on in here...so you see, your fame spreads before you !!!

And so here I am...I hope you don't mind ?

Ainon,

I'd just add that in my opinion, if you're talking about an audience that has simply watched the three movies without getting the very important point about what the Ring does to the people come near it, and this audience then superficially accepts that Frodo is merely gullible to Gollum's trickery, then that same audience is unlikely to appreciate the dynamics that of a "Thief!" scene in the CU after Sam has gone through all the trouble to going to rescue Frodo. There's no way that Frodo could ever be redeemed in the eyes of a superficial audience then, no matter how good Elijah's acting or how faithful the dialogue - the sheer hurt in Sam's eyes will ensure that! So to me, shifting the dynamics of that moment in the book to the Stairs in the movie does the perfect job of maintaining the essential spirit of the book, while allowing every level of the audience to understand both Frodo and Sam.

Your ideas here are quite the most excellently plausible explanations for PJ's little digression from the book...and had I given it as much thought, I probably would have come to exactly the same conclusion...so Bravo, for putting it so clearly :D !

Mel,
wonder if people who haven't read the books might actually see Frodo's motives more clearly -- those of us who have read the books have layers of interpretation of the books between ourselves and the movie, and things that aren't in the book are very jarring.

Now this is a very interesting and original premise, and I do wonder if you may be actually right to a degree here...do we over-analyse the motives of Frodo and Sam, and indeed PJ sometimes...may it not be the case that occasionally, we should forget the book and go with the flow where the movies are concerned ? Sometimes I wish I could see the films without the foreknowledge of the book, just so that I could enjoy them without the contamination of pre-knowledge of the plotlines and motives...particularly the ones that are missing :D

Do the non-book audience enjoy these movies more because of the lack of anoying missing scenes, or do they miss out on very important plot-lines and motives that haven't come across in the movies so well?...
For instance, many people who haven't read the books seem to be very confused as to why Frodo has to leave at the end of ROTK...is he going across the sea to die ? Is he going to Paradise with the Elves ? Why ? etc,etc...( I've lost count of the times I've had to explain the whole Grey Havens scene to people who lack the book knowledge, and let's face it, the movie should stand up on its own without the Extra scenes of the Extended cut DVD...

So, that comment from Mel has much more to it than at first obvious...

Ariel

01-03-2004, 03:09 PM

Originally posted by Lady Wendy
For instance, many people who haven't read the books seem to be very confused as to why Frodo has to leave at the end of ROTK...is he going across the sea to die ? Is he going to Paradise with the Elves ? Why ? etc,etc...( I've lost count of the times I've had to explain the whole Grey Havens scene to people who lack the book knowledge, and let's face it, the movie should stand up on its own without the Extra scenes of the Extended cut DVD...
Yes, I have found myself directing non-readers to pieces of fanfic in order to help explain what was going on. :rolleyes: Nice as the film is, that is one area that I can definitely find fault with.

Ariel

zkgrumpy

01-03-2004, 03:34 PM

Contains spoilers!!!!

Originally posted by naiad

Sadly, much of it is true, IMO, and, though I admit to having fallen for the movies, ROTK especially, I find little in the article to disagree with. It's worth reading, I think, lest we get carried away by the multi-layered beauty of Elijah's Frodo.

Nope. I don't agree. (Dang. Three days in New Hampshire and I turn into a disagreeable Yankee granite-farmer!)

Re: Merry and Pippen: They were comic relief in the books, too. Their feasting on a pile of rubble, with Pippen falling asleep and Merry smoking was hilarious in the book, and in the movie. And the reviewer has it all wrong. They were more addicted to pipeweed than to ale. They found ale in the storehouse, but the rapture and drooling was saved for the pipeweed.

We saw their transformation into grim-faced warriors in Moria, when they saw Frodo fall and attacked the troll. We saw it go further when they pelted the Urukai with stones and drew their little daggers to try to defend Borimar. I had no problem with the depiction of the Big Folk belittling their military prowess. They did in the book, too. Merry tried to go along and was turned down. Pippen did a very dangerous and foolish thing with the Palantir, and though he more than redeemed himself, he was also dismissed as too small to fight.

I know that Frodo's sending Sam away is controversial, but I think it was a kind of shorthand to show how lost Frodo was between the Ring's influence and Gollum's manipulation. I believed it as much as I believed Frodo's calling Sam a thief in the book in the tower. PJ just shifted the place and incident. The lembas incident was invented, but it was entirely true to the whole thread of how the Ring was corrupting Frodo.

I think it's an interesting point that - um - sorry - forgot who :o - made about Sam's increasing violence showing the Ring's growing hold on him. It's true - Galadriel said that the Ring would destroy them all, and Sam wasn't as immune to the Ring as I'd like to believe. How soon would Sam defending Frodo against Gollum have twisted around to Sam defending the Ring against Frodo and Gollum? Even Sam's love for Frodo wouldn't have been immune to the Ring. It makes sense that Frodo would have seen Sam's fury as corruption by the Ring and realized that he had to ditch Sam just as he ditched Borimar and Aragorn.

~grumpyandbackfromtheColdNawthintothebosomoftheOldDominion

Maeglian

01-03-2004, 04:56 PM

I'll say one thing for the "Frodo sending Sam home" scene: All of hobbit-centric fandom seems to be debating and dissecting this, and it makes for a lot of good and insightful reading!

I think the scene works extremely well, combining the sentiments of various canon incidents with pitch-perfect movieverse Frodo and Sam at that point in the story. I've written at length on my view over in the "RotK spoiler thread" so I'll try to spare you all a full repeat, and try to add some new stuff.

However, I will say that the reviewer who thought Frodo fell for the lembas theft thing can't even have watched the scene very well. It's not the lembas theft that has Frodo send Sam away, - the lembas disappearing only makes Frodo despair and panic for a moment because "That's all we had!" Without it, they can't finish the quest. And the quest *is* and remains Frodo's main priority. And THEN Sam and Gollum are seriously and violently fighting once more, - and Frodo has to spend energy he doesn't have to spare on separating them. This exhausts him so much that he collapses. And THEN Sam offers to carry the Ring - causing strong Ring-and-Gollum-induced paranoia to hit Frodo on top of the despair, stress and worry and the total physical and mental exhaustion caused by all the previous goings-on in the scene. *That's* when Frodo send's Sam away. It's absolutely not about the lembas theft, - that only sets the action in motion. What it *is* about, others have described very well already in the posts above and I won't repeat it.

On to other things I've read and like to comment on:Tolkien emphasized qualities in his hero an iron will, unfathomable courage, humility, selflessness, and wisdom that help to make these points. Jackson and his writers, though they did include all these qualities in some degree, chose to deemphasize them for the sake of their modern conception of psychological drama. Their movies, moving and powerful as they undoubtedly are, are nevertheless the poorer for it."
Gina R. Dalfonzo I'm very curious about how this reviewer would have liked to see the courage, humility etc. portrayed in the film. What PJ is doing, IMO, is showing us all of this; - but in a "realistic" setting where the heros also happen to despair, make errors, fail, quarrel, be frightened out of their wits, etc. The fact that they have these "failings", to me only serve to emphasise the courage and selflessness they show in nevertheless perservering - going on, going on, never giving up. When Frodo has fought off Gollum after Shelob's lair, he has nothing left. No phial, no Sting, no food, no guide, no friend and helper...... For a moment he despairs, but then he sets his jaw and goes on.

Sam collapsing in a sobbing heap, or Frodo frothing at the mouth after having been stung by Shelob are not a pretty sight - that's part of the reason I love the films and the story they tell. I don't think it would have such an emotional impact or ring so true if what the heros go trough, and what they *do*, wasn't painful and ugly to watch, if they weren't less than perfect, less than heroic. Despite their "humanity" of not being perfect, they go on, and that makes me respect their courage and selflessness all the more. Perfectly courageous heros are easy to dismiss as "too otherwordly" or "pure fantasy" or (as in many an adventure film) "action heros". But OTOH, the pain and dirt and fear and failings of the LotR heros can make us uncomfortable...... because they seem so *real*, and yet they end up achieving the unachievable.

Part of what really gets to me in the Frodo sending Sam away scene is the dirt and grit. The slippery cold dirt and mud of those stairs seems so real you could reach your hand out and touch it. And there Frodo and Sam are, so utterly exhausted that they're sleeping on the edge of the abyss, their cheeks resting on the bare, cold, dirty and wet stone. This is what their physical exhaustion makes them do; - their mental exhaustion is equally realistic and tangible: Causing tempers to flare, mental stress to reach breaking point, and allowing paranoia to take hold. That may be psychological drama, but to me it doesn't deemphazize the wonderful qualities of Frodo and Sam - it makes them stand out more.

I think I see at least 3 "added" psychological elements in that particular scene:
1) Frodo reaching a breaking point where he just can't take Sam and Gollum's increasingly ugly fighting anymore, and
2) Gollum trying to reach his goals through cleverly manipulating and constantly lying to another person, and
3) Sam's despair over Frodo seemingly not believing him, trying so hard to convince Frodo that it's counterproductive.

Those scenarions and feelings I could easily releate to any number of "modern day" examples..... Take for instance, a parent trying desperately on the basis of well documented evidence to convince his/her child that the obscure sect she's about to join will be harmful to her, and is only out to make an obedient "slave" out of her; - only to have the child embrace the sect even closer in defiance of the parent's interference. That is what Sam must be feeling when Frodo seemingly won't listen to "the truth" about Gollum and even seems to chose Gollum over Sam. And that is just *one* small element of the "psychology" of that scene! I find it difficult to dismiss scenes from the films that include psychological elements as long as they work so well within the context, are acted to perfection, and enhances the possibility of connecting with the characters and relating to their emotions. In this scene, I think such elements work surprisingly well.

But then, I'll freely admit to loving the whole "Frodo sending Sam away" scene. If nothing else, look at Elijah's acting there! It's fantastic, running over such a wide specter of exhaustion, panic, despair, suspicion, worry, sorrow, fear...... Give him an Oscar! :)

Edit:
Every time I write something like this, I feel that I should somehow feel obliged to mourn the fact that Frodo may not be as wise, mature and reflected in the film as in the book. But film!Frodo works so wonderfully well on his own, for me (in RotK, certainly), that I just can't find it in me to complain about anything at all that might be different from book to film. Also I feel certain a case can be made for film!maturity and wisdom - certainly there at the very end after return to the Shire. Must think some more on that. :rolleyes:

ElanorSam

01-03-2004, 10:38 PM

Beautiful, thought provoking post, Maeglian. Thanks for taking the time to write this!

And thanks for the welcome, tgshaw (have I mentioned how much I enjoy your posts where you draw upon your vast knowledge of Tolkien?) and naiad. Don't know how much I can continue posting now the holidays are almost over, but I have been enjoying the Faculty very much.

ainon

01-04-2004, 09:06 AM

Maeg, long have I missed your wonderful and excellent theses and analyses. :k :notworthy: I'd add just one thing to your brilliant example: in the movies, I think Frodo knows full well that Gollum can turn treacherous at any point which is why he needs Sam's support - he certainly doesn't deny Sam's claim that Gollum's a villain. But he also needs to keep trusting Smeagol. Unfortunately, Sam simply never gave Smeagol a chance.

Elanor, I hope you'll still be able to keep posting with us. It's always a drag when holidays are coming to an end. :p

Grumpy, I take it you're back in your own cozy home now, sleeping on your soft feather pillow? :)

Well, Wendy, now that you figure we're <cough>sane<cough> enough to hang out with ;) what's your stand on the appreciation of angst? :D

Ariel, your avatar rocks.

Originally posted by Ariel
Yes, I have found myself directing non-readers to pieces of fanfic in order to help explain what was going on. :rolleyes: Nice as the film is, that is one area that I can definitely find fault with.

That sounds like a good thing! Introducing them to fanfic, I mean. ;) I don't know what the movie could have done any different with an audience that can't believe there's any more story to tell after the Ring has been destroyed, and amazing as it is to comprehend, there're people who apparently won't sit an extra 20 minutes for pure unadulterated hobbit angstness. :rolleyes: I think the movie summarised everything succintly. What I imagine though, is that the audience isn't necessarily collating the information. One friend assumed that Frodo was going on another adventure, because that's what Bilbo says. :p Once I reminded her that Frodo was ill, and that he was essentially going to where the Elves call home, she was fine with it. And didn't bother to want to know more, although she did muse with wonderment that the LOTR movies are movies where one has to think while watching. Oh well. We have all kinds of audiences for the movies ... the way I figure, those who do ask questions and want to know more about Frodo's departure are the ones who're genuinely curious and interested beyond the movies, and that's great because we might even get them to go to the books now. The rest - well, they've watched one jolly good yarn.

The site that Maeg linked to for Elijah's interview also features interviews with some of the other cast, and the director and scriptwriters. Since we'd talked about this a page or two back, here's more from PJ about the CoD finale.

http://promontoryartists.org/lookingcloser/movie%20reviews/Q-Z/returnoftheking-jackson.htm

Q: One of the major themes is that in the very last stage, Frodo fails. He is spared the fate of Gollum and Isildur only by chance, fate, Providence, whatever you want to call it. Do you think that for us, watching the film, as we struggle with our own inner demons, that this has any resonance? I'm thinking particularly in regard to some of the ideas in some of the addiction-recovery programs of the acknowledgement of a Higher Power. Do you think there is anything we can take away [to that effect] from the films?

Jackson: It's a good question. I'm not sure. We modified the film a little bit from the book. We tried to have our cake and eat it too. This is not really answering your question, but. We did want to honor the sense that it was the pity of Bilbo that was ultimately going to lead to the destruction of the Ring.

Bilbo not killing Gollum, and Frodo not killing Gollum at various stages of the story - many people would have regarded that as the sensible thing to do. Frodo showing pity to Gollum was a factor that led to the destruction of
the Ring directly. Tolkien made that connection very simple in the book. In the book he had Frodo injured with his finger being bitten off and then Gollum dance for joy on the edge of the Crack of Doom, and then he slips and falls
into the lava. Tolkien just did it the most simple way that he could for what he was trying to achieve.

In the movie, we felt that there was a problem with that. We felt that audiences - a lot of people haven't read the book, of course - would feel very let down and would actually judge Frodo badly for just sitting there watching as the ring got accidentally destroyed, and they'd feel that Frodo would have failed essentially in his quest, and it was an accident that stepped in. We had to be careful in the movie to keep Frodo from looking bad because of that.

So I said to Elijah, "We've obviously modified it. So when Gollum dances on the Crack of Doom, we want you going back for the Ring. Now, you know, it's really got to be ambiguous as to whether you're going back to take the Ring
and destroy it and complete your mission or whether you want to take the Ring for yourself [in a way] that's got nothing to do with destroying it." And Elijah said, "Oh, I think I want it!" [chuckles] So I said, "Just play it in a very ambiguous way." So Frodo went for Gollum - Elijah went for the Ring. The two of them fought: Andy Serkis was there, and Elijah, and the two of them fell in.

So we still tried to preserve what was important to Tolkien - the sense that it was the pity that [resolved the conflict.] There's nothing that takes away from that. If Gollum hadn't been there, if he had been killed earlier, then Frodo would have just kept it. We still had the presence of Gollum being the catalyst that led to its destruction.

[Regarding the added scene of Sam rescuing Frodo from the cliff.]

We didn't want to make Frodo heroic. We wanted to make Frodo feel that he had failed. At that point, he's free of the burden - the Ring is destroyed and it's no longer having that power over him. There's a sense that Frodo feels like he wants to let go, he feels that he has failed, and Sam says, 'No, don't do that.'

Am I the only one getting a kick out of the way PJ describes it: "Frodo went for Gollum - Elijah went for the Ring"? ;)

tgshaw

01-04-2004, 11:04 AM

Edit: Simulposted with ainon, so just dropped back in to say :D to this...
...although she did muse with wonderment that the LOTR movies are movies where one has to think while watching.
...and a "me, too," to this.
Oh well. We have all kinds of audiences for the movies ... the way I figure, those who do ask questions and want to know more about Frodo's departure are the ones who're genuinely curious and interested beyond the movies, and that's great because we might even get them to go to the books now. The rest - well, they've watched one jolly good yarn.
Now I have to scroll back up and read the interview :) .

-----------

Originally posted by Maeglian
...I'm very curious about how this reviewer would have liked to see the courage, humility etc. portrayed in the film. What PJ is doing, IMO, is showing us all of this; - but in a "realistic" setting where the heros also happen to despair, make errors, fail, quarrel, be frightened out of their wits, etc.
First, a disclaimer: I haven't read that review and don't plan to; I'm trying to avoid as much negativity as I can about the RotK movie (couldn't do it with FotR or TTT, because I had too many issues with them myself).

So I can't speak to the reviewer's specific comments, but I certainly didn't see a lack of courage, humility, or any other virtue I can think of in RotK or in the movies as a whole. And I believe that one of Tolkien's greatest strengths in developing his characters is that he did just what Maeg says: showed us those qualities in a realistic setting and in realistic people.

I've said before that I think some (not all, by any means) of what some have interpreted as the "wimpification" of Frodo in the movies comes from the fact that it's easier to intellectualize, skim over, or avoid his weaknesses on the page than it is when the movie puts them literally "in our face"; Elijah's acting doesn't make it any easier--he shows so clearly what Frodo's feeling that it's difficult to argue it away. It was the scene at the Black Gate that made me realize that an important part of what Frolijah does for me is to show me the "inner Frodo"--those things that book-Frodo must have felt but didn't feel free to express, whether during the actual events or in the way he wrote about them later (which, IMHO, is something Tolkien paid careful attention to when "rewriting" the story). And, IMVHO, some of the screenwriting has been insightful in that way. Frodo's "heart attack" in TTT has deepened the way I read the passage where he's determined to find a way out of the Emyn Muil so he can be out of the line of sight of Barad-Dur because, "There's an Eye in it."

...I don't think it would have such an emotional impact or ring so true if what the heros go trough, and what they *do*, wasn't painful and ugly to watch...
There's one part of the movie where I have a hard time following my own advice, and not dropping my eyes or looking at something else. It's absolutely excruciating for me. That's Frodo's panic and terror (for lack of stronger words) in Shelob's lair. It starts when he realizes he can't tell which direction Smeagol is calling from, and ends with him as a cowering heap as far away from the passage as he can push himself, with even his hands drawn in to his body. And I know it's so difficult for me not just because it's frightening to think of myself in a similar situation, or because I'm afraid of what's coming next. It's mainly because I don't want to admit that Frodo could be a cowering heap! Would most people be cowering heaps in that situation? I sure think so! I wouldn't think less of anyone for it. And IMHO most of the non-book-readers I worry about during that scene (what will they think of Frodo?) would feel the same way. In fact, there's one line that I've expected to hear some laughter over but haven't heard even a chuckle through six viewings: "Now that I'm here, I don't think I want to." I haven't taken an exit poll, but my guess would be that the audience is so identifying with how they would feel in that situation that they don't see Frodo's line as humorous at all. I may hear some laughter in future viewings--but from what I've heard (or not heard) to this point, I think most people are "getting" the situation as well as Frodo's response.

That "cowering heap" is the same person who then pulls out the phial and Sting and finds his own way out of the lair. I think if we hadn't seen the terror--if Frodo had simply said "huh" and continued on his way through the tunnels--he might have been an "action hero" the audience could cheer for, but I don't think they would have identified with him.

------------

What's below is stuff I was just thinking of as I was writing it, so beware of unfinished construction zones: hard hats recommended to deflect book-Frodo-related thoughts :p :
...Sam's despair over Frodo seemingly not believing him, trying so hard to convince Frodo that it's counterproductive.
I think this dynamic is there in the book, as well, although the increasing violence and Gollum's manipulation ratchets it up in the movie. IMVHO, in both the book and the movie, Frodo and Sam have a hard time "connecting" about Gollum, because they have different concerns and respond to each other's concerns by coming out of their own. That makes Sam feel as if Frodo isn't listening to him, which, as Maeg says, just adds to the misunderstanding.

Hmmm... might be easier to give an example... In the earlier "I need you on my side" scene in the movie, the exchange goes something like this (after one of Sam's conflicts with Gollum)--

Frodo: We're lost.
Sam: I don't care. I won't wait around for him to kill us. You don't see it, do you? He's a villain.
Frodo: We can't do this alone, not without a guide.

From the outside, it's not hard to tell what's going on there, but when you're inside a dynamic like that it's more difficult to see that you're not connecting. Frodo's first line is, to him, the concern that overrides all others: "We're lost." Sam responds, "I don't care..." Well, Frodo doesn't have the option of not caring--he has to get into Mordor. It's like their dialogue at the Black Gate, when Sam doesn't want to follow Gollum but can't give Frodo any other choices.

Then Sam's "You don't see it, do you? He's a villain." Frodo very likely does see it, but he doesn't say that to Sam in his reply (doing so might have eased Sam's mind a bit). Instead, he comes back, again, out of his own necessarily single-minded aim: "We can't do this... without a guide." (Hmmm... speaking of psychology... that's a perfect response from someone who's a Meyers-Briggs "intuitive", such as Frodo. He skips a step in the reply, possibly not even noticing that he's doing so. But when talking to Sam, who's his "opposite letter"--a "sensate"--that doesn't work. [But, sadly, neither of them seems to have taken the Personality Inventory, so they can't sit down and discuss their differing communication models :rolleyes: .])

But, really, speaking of psychology, this just shows how marvelously Tolkien understood his characters. I doubt if he sat down and said, "Let's make Frodo an INF who's in the middle on his J/P aspect, and have Sam be an ESFJ," but they're such real people that their psychology can be parsed as it could be with "real" people. And, even more interesting, the movie adds that scene, but still keeps the interaction between the two pitch-perfect (IMO).

The kicker--and where the book and the movie might have had different outcomes--is Frodo's, "Trust me." Another beautiful intuitive jump over a couple of steps--"Yes, Sam, I do see it. I know he's a villain. But we need him. We can't do this alone, not without a guide. That's what he is--a guide. Don't worry, I know what he's capable of, and I know what I'm doing (or, at least, I hope so). Trust me." But Sam, being not only a sensate (processes information through his senses, so needs to hear statements) but also an extravert (used to "thinking out loud"--so not realizing that Frodo, as an introvert, is processing things internally), doesn't "get" the steps in-between, which to Frodo are assumed. Since the two are on a much more level playing field socially in the movie, there's bound to be conflict.

In the book, OTOH, I think Sam would have done just what he did--not be happy with Mr. Frodo's choices, but go along with them because he is, after all, Mr. Frodo. That's probably one reason (not the only one) Sam never got sent home in the book. It's possible that in changing the social relationship between Frodo and Sam the movies not only made their relationship more "acceptable" to modern audiences, but also made the psychological dynamic between the two of them much more complex--and much more likely to cause problems.

hobbityme

01-04-2004, 11:50 AM

Hello Everybody!

I'm new to this board and I didn't know where else to ask this but according to this article

http://metromix.chicagotribune.com/movies/mmx-0312070189dec07,0,5550603.story?coll=mmx-movies_heds

Elijah Wood might be playing the son of a circus strongman... does anybody have any info about this at all?

Thank you so much! I've been busy reading hundreds of pages here and I can't believe I've finally found a board that's so insightful!

Ariel

01-04-2004, 12:22 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
It's mainly because I don't want to admit that Frodo could be a cowering heap! Would most people be cowering heaps in that situation? I sure think so! I wouldn't think less of anyone for it. And IMHO most of the non-book-readers I worry about during that scene (what will they think of Frodo?) would feel the same way.
Again, it isn't what the film character gets to do that I regret, but what he doesn't get to do. For example, without Sam in the tunnel, Frodo has no reason to act in any way other than the one the movie shows, but in the book (and not just in this scene but in several of the ones filmed) he demonstrated his courage because he was protecting someone other than himself. I wouldn't say that film Frodo was really any whimpier than book!Frodo, but he had fewer opportunities to show it, especially in TTT. I, too, worry what non-book readers will think of Frodo (although much less than I thought I would) and the nominations and accolades Elijah isn't getting seem to bear that up. The GP is not very sophisticated and I fear the away PJ presented Frodo goes right over most of their heads. All they seem to see is a character who they can't easily admire... nor, it seems, can they give the actor who played him his right and proper due.

Originally posted by tgshaw
..."Yes, Sam, I do see it. I know he's a villain. But we need him. We can't do this alone, not without a guide. That's what he is--a guide. Don't worry, I know what he's capable of, and I know what I'm doing (or, at least, I hope so). Trust me."
And though I could see all these things in his simple dialog, I doubt a non-reader, who has only had PJ's version of Frodo to go by, would. Without book knowledge, this scene can EASILY be read as Frodo is clueless and Sam is the only one who knows what is really going on... and THAT was something I never got from the books.

Very good post, Maeglian. And though I know it doesn't sound it, I don't really have any real issues with ROTK. It's done far better than I expected it to be three years ago (or even last year after seeing TTT). I thought I was going to hate the 'Sam go home' bit a lot more than I did, but other than wanting it more clear that Frodo is sending Sam away partly for his own good (which he probably wouldn't realize until after the heat of that scene had passed) I can't fault it. EW's wonderful acting in that scene is what makes the whole thing work. How can you fault that?

LOL! Good point, ainon. As much as I dissect these films, I forget that to many, they don't have to make perfect sense, have the proper motivation and have each arc resolved. It is very true that few people do think about a film (or indeed even want to!). They just want the good guys to win and everyone to live happily ever after. :rolleyes:

Ariel

Lady Wendy

01-04-2004, 12:34 PM

Ainon,
Well, Wendy, now that you figure we're <cough>sane<cough> enough to hang out with what's your stand on the appreciation of angst?

Sane ? Sane ?...Are you quite mad ?!!! :D :D :D :D :D...( Wendy drifts off into wild cackles of maniacal laughter.....)

Well, I for one, am not sane at all...where's the fun in that ?...Mad as a Hatter, me...
As for my stance on the vexed question of Angst...I, personally, cannot get enough...particularly Frodo-angst...and particularly when it's in the form of really well-written Fan-fiction...( which, of course, some of you will be more than familiar with ;) )
At Frodo's Kitchen, we have Shadowfax and Connie-marie, who run the West of the Moon fan-fiction site, regularly posting....in fact, it was Connie who set up our two threads in the first place...

So, as you can see, I'm just a Frodo-angst addict...can't get enough, don't want to get enough !!!

As for PJ's comments on the CoD sequence in ROTK, I, too, found the prospect of Frodo going for Gollum and Elijah going for the ring quite fascinating...there is the suggestion that Elijah was taken over by the character as well as his character's yearning for the ring...a bit disconcerting when Elijah said " Oh, I think I want it "...

tgshaw,
There's one part of the movie where I have a hard time following my own advice, and not dropping my eyes or looking at something else. It's absolutely excruciating for me. That's Frodo's panic and terror (for lack of stronger words) in Shelob's lair. It starts when he realizes he can't tell which direction Smeagol is calling from, and ends with him as a cowering heap as far away from the passage as he can push himself, with even his hands drawn in to his body. And I know it's so difficult for me not just because it's frightening to think of myself in a similar situation, or because I'm afraid of what's coming next. It's mainly because I don't want to admit that Frodo could be a cowering heap!

I've never thought of our Frodo as some kind of action hero at all, quite the opposite, in fact, and therefore I don't have any problem at all with him cowering in a heap on the floor...OK, I'll admit it - it's just fodder for my angst-addiction, I'm afraid :D

Tolkien's main theme throughout this book was the thought that the smallest person could change the course of the largest historical events, and they don't come much physically smaller than Frodo..however his spirit and integrity was his greatest strength, and this was mainly due to his innocence and purity of heart...his incorruptability was his biggest weapon against Sauron and the Ring, and yet even he gets sucked in by it...in the end he thought he failed because he didn't do exactly what he set out to do...if only he'd known that he succeeded in his mission the minute he spared Gollum's life...the fact that he didn't understand this was the biggest reason he had to go off to the Undying Lands at the end of the book...

I don't think that the cinema audiences are thinking of anything else other than their own fear when Frodo is confronted by Shelob, and they empathise with him enormously...I certainly did !!:rolleyes:

If there's one thing that Elijah did REALLY well, in these movies, it was to make us the audience empathise with his situation at any given time...he communicated his feelings so well, and I think you're spot on when you say that PJ and Elijah played it with this in mind...to show the inner Frodo above all else, whereas the book shows us simply what he did and said...

Thank you for your marvellous insights into the psychological aspects of the misunderstanding between Frodo and Sam...I wonder whether Fran and Peter knew that they were writing it that way, or whether it was purely an intuitive thing ?

mel headstrong

01-04-2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
First, a disclaimer: I haven't read that review and don't plan to; I'm trying to avoid as much negativity as I can about the RotK movie (couldn't do it with FotR or TTT, because I had too many issues with them myself).
Me too, tg. :) Me too.

Interesting thoughts about communication difficulties with the different personalities... and how the changed social status affected them. I think I agree.

Ariel:
And though I could see all these things in his simple dialog, I doubt a non-reader, who has only had PJ's version of Frodo to go by, would. Without book knowledge, this scene can EASILY be read as Frodo is clueless and Sam is the only one who knows what is really going on... and THAT was something I never got from the books.
I disagree that a non-book reader wouldn't know what's going on. I think Elijah's acting (Mel remembers where she is :o ) makes it clear that there's more going on than what is being said in the dialogue. (In fact, the scenes where I wonder if I'm reading too much into the performance as a book reader are ones that are closer to the book -- for instance, at the beginning of the movie, when Sam says he's saving lembas for the journey home, I read Frodo's expression as saying "- I do not think we need give thought to what comes after that..." , or in Mordor, where Frodo keeps lifting his hand as if to ward off the Eye.)

Not that everyone's going to see it. You've got to read subtle facial expressions, and pay attention to what people aren't saying, and a lot of people just don't do that. (But that seems right, too... I mean, most of the people I know in Real Life thought Frodo was a wimp in the books and wouldn't appreciate his form of courage if they ran across it in real life. So the Academy reflects the reaction of the book hobbits in the Shire after the Scouring.)

Welcome, hobbityme. There was some discussion about the strongman's son role a few months ago. I don't know anything more about it.

Mel

Alyon

01-04-2004, 01:18 PM

I am here to bow down to those of you who said that with repeated viewings those things that were unsettling at first watch become so much less relevant. I did drag myself and A.D. out late last night to see it again. Now I could watch it knowing what to expect (what wasn't in there). I also apologize to poor Sam, because I think I previously ignored him somewhat in my need to have everyone see Frodo as the hero. Sam is wonderful and Sean plays him very well----he is indeed one of the heros. And (as I thought from the beginning)--Elijah is so magically sublime as Frodo, I, like all here, cannot understand why we aren't hearing everyone gush over his performance. Even if all details of the book were in play, and yet if the actor cast didn't have the light, the magic, the abiltiy to love and suffer so beautifully, that Elijah has--then it wouldn't have worked a fraction as well. That Elijah can make Frodo so magical, so soulful, is the truist tribute to the book.

I think EVERYBODY should have repeated viewings of the movie. I think I get too personally invested in wanting everybody to KNOW and to see what Frodo is doing. Not just us, who will watch and interpret and analyze--but everybody. There are so many details in the movie--and so many directions to take one's thoughts--it does take repeated viewing and lots of reflection to decide what you think it going on. I really hope that people who like the movie (not just those of us who are already super tuned to the story) watch it again and again. Because that is my hope for more complex evaluation to come about. It isn't just because the audience is superficial that they might not get the themes, or be able to properly interpret all of Frodo's motivations from his facial expressions...there is just so much going on to try to figure out. ( Yeah..like the grey havens---I, like those who have already written about it have had to explain that one quite a bit--and it is pretty important. It is hard for someone to have the true emotion it deserves if one doesn't know what is going on and where Frodo is off to)...and also, like A.D., who watches carefully, didn't remember until I told her that when Frodo meets up with Gandalf after M.D., he is seeing someone he thought was dead!! Because as an audience we have seen Gandalf alive through the last two movies, and yet with so much going on, and so much time having passed since he fell in Moria, it is easy for someone to forget that Frodo doesn't know he has come back. Which does change the moment a bit. So I wouldn't call an audience shallow to not figure it all out right away. We interpret Elijah's Frodo already knowing Frodo. Already knowing what Tolkien said in his letters... if it were a simpler movie to take in all at once, I'd say maybe...but I think you need to let someone see it several times first before deciding they are too simplistic.

I love the layers of detail in the movie that get thrown in there that the audience sort of has to swim with. "Mithrandir??? why is he Mithrandir, now?"

I react too much to what I hear the very first audience and reviewer reaction is/was. And that WAS simplistic. But again, I wonder if reaction would change with repeated viewings. Since people are seeing it again and again, there is hope. I don't think Frodo's quest and sacrifice has been written enough about. I don't think Elijah's acting has been written enough about. But then my fault has been in blaming the movie for that--and really for the very things I have been lauding it for...for the level of detail and depth that is hard to comprehend in one viewing (especially for the tolkien novice)--but does make the movie continually rich and satisfying to delve into again and again.

As an aside--I spent an evening with a friend recently who surprised me greatly. She didn't enjoy the movie very much. NOt enough hobbits, too many battles (it's usually either that, or the reverse, isn't it?). She is not--or I didn't think she was, a Tolkienite. Then she surprised me by leaning over and looking at me intently, and she started talking about the compassion of Frodo. She said she read the books three times straight when she was 13--because Frodo's pity made such an impact on her. She said she wasn't raised that way. She was raised to be competetive with others and take no prisoners. So Frodo's pity changed her life. She said "in the movie, it looks like Frodo is just being deceived by Gollum!"

So for me, I believe in pity so much that I want people to get it right away. I want them to want to be like Frodo.
Ah well--so thus my initial reaction. Now, I know I see Frodo's pity. I see his beauty and his sacrifice. I probably shouldn't worry about what others see. But the message is such a good one.

So I loved it. I am forever grateful for Elijah. I think this movie will be seen so much throughout time that if the message isn't clear now, it will eventually be.

Oh--watching with AD the first time was so fun because she was spoiler free and tense throughout. The second time was interesting because as an actor she can't help but see each scene from the view point of camera set up and actors position etc. Now that she is able to read reviews etc--she is stunned that Elijah isn't getting more attention. She even stomps about it on occassion!!

sorry for the long post. You all have covered so many details in such a great way. now I just ramble about my feelings --so what is that about??;)

tgshaw

01-04-2004, 02:37 PM

Alyon, beautiful post :) ! IMHO there are so many similarities between the movies and the book, and I don't mean plot-wise or character-wise, but the way people approach them. A lot of people read LotR once, think "Oh, that was a pretty good adventure story/fantasy book/whatever..." and then move on to something else. And Tolkien wrote it in such a way that an approach like that works just fine--he said he was trying to write "a really long story" and was glad if people enjoyed it for that.

But "the story" is what the people who read it once are going to get. They may see glimpses of deeper connections, a wider world, more complexities in the characters, etc. (depending on the reader), but unless they're intrigued enough by those glimpses to want to go back and discover more, that's where it will stop.

Yesterday, I was sitting next to a girl in her upper teens who was holding seats for her parents, so we had a little time to talk before the movie. She said she thought Tolkien was "all right for his time" but her favorite was Terry Brooks [no comment]. She'd read LotR once, in fifth grade, and I suggested that she might want to read it again, now that she's older, because there's so much in it that someone in fifth grade wouldn't pick up. She said, "Well, I was reading at college level when I was in fifth grade," and I replied that I wasn't talking about understanding what the words meant... She kind of nodded, so maybe she at least heard what I was saying, but then her parents came and that ended the conversation. [And I was very, very good--not even mentioning that I read at three years old and by first grade could read anything I pulled off a shelf--but that doesn't mean I could understand it, if you take my meaning. :rolleyes: .]

So, there are people who read the book once and stop. There will be even more people who'll see the movie once and stop, because watching even a 3 1/2 hour movie takes less commitment than reading a 1000 page book. But, as ainon said earlier, if nothing else they've seen a really good movie--certainly better than most of what they could be watching!

Others will see the movie again, or multiple times. Many have gone to the book. Others just ask questions from people like us ;) -- Since it's been cold enough to wear a coat, I've found my Fellowship brooch to have something of the effect of wearing an "I work here" nametag :p ; , so people do ask questions.

And, IMHO, it's all good. Of course, if they want to go deeper, that's even better!

I think the movies have that same kind of effect on people because they have details and layers that you can't completely take in immediately, and some people will realize that and want to know more. The characters are complex (compared to most movie characters). And one thing I think the movies have done very well is make it completely obvious that there's more to this story, these characters, and this world than we're seeing on the screen. Those who are interested will go looking for it, and those who aren't... won't... which has always been the case.

IMHO, the movies do something else Tolkien did in his writing--they don't make everything crystal clear and unambiguous. Scenes can be interpreted different ways, characters can be understood--or misunderstood--from various angles, events can be seen to have varying significance... just like in the book. IMVVHO, for someone to get really "hooked" on Tolkien's creation, the person has to love the questions as well as the answers--because answers will always bring new questions, but questions don't always have answers (meaning, usually, that they have too many possible answers). People who enjoy that kind of thing will get involved in it and those who aren't won't... just as always.

And there's always hope--I actively disliked Bilbo for 30 years before I started to understand him. I'm sure that some of the people who misunderstand Frodo will have a similar experience--as long as they keep digging around in Middle-earth.

----And Alyon, once your daughter's read the book (she is going to read the book, isn't she :eek: ;) ?), it would be interesting to get some of her reactions, especially about the infamous "character arcs"--that is, did she connect better with a Frodo who starts out younger and less independent than he does in the book? Did some things about book-Frodo surprise her after getting to know him through the movies? (And where did Tom Bombadil come from :p ?)

Maeglian

01-04-2004, 03:02 PM

sorry for the long post.Alyon, don't you know from this one page alone that long posts are the norm here? :) Let me try to out-long you in the following! :rolleyes: I'm happy that a renewed viewing put you at ease about issues, and that you love the film. I truly love the film.

Welcome, Hobbityme! :) Like Mel says, there was some speculation in the thread a while back concerning the "Strongman" movie, but nothing's been heard since then.

I'm just a Frodo-angst addict...can't get enough, don't want to get enough !! Lady Wendy, I think you're in good company. I'm already looking ever so much forward to getting my hands on the RotK DVD, so I can play certain scenes in slo-mo. Some of them purely for the angst value. That scene where Sam and Frodo are hiding outside Minas Morgul, now.... Have you *ever* seen sweat put to more angsty use?
I think Elijah's acting (Mel remembers where she is :o ) makes it clear that there's more going on than what is being said in the dialogue. I think so too. (No surprise there..... :rolleyes: ). I also agree with Alyon about the repeat viewings that should be compulsory for anyone who really wants to get the nuances of the story and the characterization. I think that's part of why this movie is bound to become a classic - that there's so much subtlety there that you *can't* catch half of it on one viewing.

I actually think the "movie "Grey Havens" are perfect in that respect, too. They work wonderfully (I think) for us who know the book well. And they work as a spur to others who've not read the books, to either see the film again or to read the book. I've had several friends ask me, on various occasions, during the last few weeks, what happened at the Grey Havens. "- Why did Frodo leave? - Where was he going? - Was he dying?" I think it's fabulous that the film dares to end with such a beautiful nod to the fans, and such a total spur to others to "find out more!"

From tg
I think some (not all, by any means) of what some have interpreted as the "wimpification" of Frodo in the movies comes from the fact that it's easier to intellectualize, skim over, or avoid his weaknesses on the page than it is when the movie puts them literally "in our face"; Elijah's acting doesn't make it any easier--he shows so clearly what Frodo's feeling that it's difficult to argue it away. That's one of the reasons why I admire Elijah Wood's acting as Frodo so much: He's playing the lead in this huge trilogy, - and he's so totally unafraid for his character to be judged a "whimp". He shows all the fear and pain, without reserve. He doesn't ACT to get the acting *noted*, either. And he shows Frodo's greatness, the mercy and all, - but in such subtle ways, easily overlooked by those looking for big dramatic gestures.

Sometimes I wonder whether those who protest the portrayal as diminishing the courage and selfnessness of Frodo have unconsciously established some kind of mental "Saint Frodo" image in their mind; - that is, they've pictured Frodo like we see the saints in old paintings: Being tormented, being taunted, being killed, - but with their minds unaffected, their faces serene, gazing calmly into another reality. (We're back to St. Sebastian again, I'm afraid! :o ) And Movie!Frodo isn't like that at all - the torment affects every aspect of him: Body, mind and soul, often in the most uncomfortable-to-watch manner. There's nothing immediately "uplifting" or comforting there. It's painful. Until the end.

There's one part of the movie where I have a hard time following my own advice, and not dropping my eyes or looking at something else. It's absolutely excruciating for me. That's Frodo's panic and terror (for lack of stronger words) in Shelob's lair. Oh, I agree! Although the moment I find most hard to watch, is a little later than the one you mention. When Frodo is caught dangling in that web, nearly not able to move, not able to flee, Shelob slowly crawling up behind, those *immense* spider legs, Gollum taunting him..... the total panic of that scene: Is that what nightmares are made of, or what? :eek: The first couple of times I could hardly watch that, it was so horrible.

(Actually, that's one of the scenes where I'm curious about how they filmed it: How did they make him dangle in the web like that? Was he hanging from wires? )

From Alyon
Frodo's pity made such an impact on her. She said she wasn't raised that way. She was raised to be competetive with others and take no prisoners. So Frodo's pity changed her life. She said "in the movie, it looks like Frodo is just being deceived by Gollum!" This is one of the complaints I've seen the most concerning the portrayal of Frodo - that his pity and mercy aren't very clear, especially since he never *talks* about it during RotK. At the same time, I was intriegued to see how emphatic Elijah was about this element in the interview I linked to some while back. When asked whether it was chance, fate, or providence that helped the destruction of the Ring, Elijah answers: "Its mercy. Its in the book: Its Frodos mercy for Gollum that destroys the ring. Had Frodo killed Gollum, he would have possibly gotten to Mount Doom and he would have kept the ring for himself and the world would have been doomed." So obviously this *was* a very important point in the interpretation, for all they didn't have Frodo talk much about it. They must have trusted that the story as it played out, and the acting, would demonstrate the mercy despite the lack of exposition in dialogue. And it *is* there to see..... I think especially in that invented fight scene after Gollum has just taunted the helpless Frodo in Shelob's web..... when Frodo actually lets Gollum go after *that* and after having had Gollum attack him viciously; - what *else* could that be, except pity and mercy? (And as in all Frodo scenes, there are so many additional layers.... the contrast to the Smeagol/Deagol fight, and Frodo's wanting to destroy the Ring for both our sakes"...) That little scene alone could bear a lot of analysis!

Incidentally, I also think that the fact that Frodo equates himself so clearly with Gollum in the films, and obviously sees himself in him, is a sign of that humility some critics say they can't quite see in the movies' Frodo portrayal. Frodo sees this despicable, contemptible wretch, this lying, sneaking, Ring-addicted murderer.... and understands how he became like that, emphatizes, and recognizes that that might well be himself, or that he can in time become like that. He doesn't seem to think at all that he's better, purer, morally stronger, less corruptible.... He's wrong in that, of course. But his humility seemingly doesn't let him see it.

From tg
But, sadly, neither of them seems to have taken the Personality Inventory, so they can't sit down and discuss their differing communication models And STILL some reviewers complain of too much pshychology! :D

(((Ariel))) (((ainon))) (((ElanorSam)))

mel headstrong

01-04-2004, 03:18 PM

from Maeglian:
When asked whether it was chance, fate, or providence that helped the destruction of the Ring, Elijah answers: "Its mercy. Its in the book: Its Frodos mercy for Gollum that destroys the ring. Had Frodo killed Gollum, he would have possibly gotten to Mount Doom and he would have kept the ring for himself and the world would have been doomed."
So... do you think Elijah has read the book, or parts of the book, now? Chunks of the Frodo and Sam chapters, at least? I wondered that when I listened to him talk about the Ring representing Power in the cast commentary of the TTT DVD, too. Did he read parts of the book, or did all that come from discussions with PJ and Fran and Philippa and Sean and Andy? Because on the surface, those aspects aren't in the script. They don't come out in the dialogue.

In any case, it seems as though in recent interviews Elijah shows a lot of insight into the character and the story (moreso than in the first pre-FotR interviews, though perhaps that's because he couldn't reveal where the character went until the third movie was out).

Mel

Maeglian

01-04-2004, 03:34 PM

Mel, in the latest interviews I've read, when Elijah's asked outright, he admits he still hasn't read the book. So I suppose this point must have come across in the discussions with PJ and the rest of the cast and screenwriters. Surely there must have been some discussion and explanation in the team, for instance, concerning why the dialogue and action at "the end of all things" was changed to focus so much on Frodo's caring and love for Sam, rather than him talking of mercy and forgiveness of Gollum.

Although I suppose he *must* have read some of the Frodo and Sam chapters of the book.

Flourish

01-04-2004, 03:49 PM

(Actually, that's one of the scenes where I'm curious about how they filmed it: How did they make him dangle in the web like that? Was he hanging from wires? )

I saw the answer to this question yesterday in Cinefex magazine, which I skimmed in a bookstore but didn't buy. As best I can recall, they strung him from cords made of the same rubbery stuff the rest of the webs in the lair were made of. Sorry I don't recall the name of it! If I'm in the store again I'll look in the article more carefully.

honeyelf

01-04-2004, 07:23 PM

Alyon said:didn't remember until I told her that when Frodo meets up with Gandalf after M.D., he is seeing someone he thought was dead!!

I love the way Frodo wakes up laughing to see Gandalf, but it's also a rather angsty moment. I imagine that upon seeing Gandalf, Frodo might think himself dead until his cousins burst into the room and onto the bed. His laughter intensifies then, like "oh, I get it, I'm still here then!"

The Grey Havens: My husband says the hugs go on far to long, and even if he can stomach the hugs, the long gazes are too much. Hullo? Silly man, Frodo is never to see these dear hobbits again. He can hardly take a polaroid can he? He must try to remember their faces. He is fortunate to be able to have that moment to hold them close and look into their faces in that way. How many of us will have that opportunity on our departure?

A twenty-something gentleman at work says the movies are masterpieces. I asked him if the movie made him cry at all. He said "no, but it's hard watching those characters be parted after the bond they've formed." Did I mention he's one of my favorite co-workers? He gets it! Hope for his generation! :D

When Frodo sends Sam away in that infamous scene, I'm trying very hard to come to terms with Frodo's state of mind there. Actually, I think I can understand reasons why he might have done so. What I don't understand is why Sam would actually leave. This is the hobbit he loves most, who is now in the hands of a murderer! Wouldn't he follow? Did he really need to find the discarded lembas to propell him back up those stairs?

When he and Sam are sitting there "at the end of all things" the dialogue really isn't how I understood Frodo. I always thought that a small part of why Frodo left was that he lost the capacity to remember and enjoy the simple things of his previous life as an ordinary (thought noble) hobbit. I remember reading about recovering crack addicts, and how they never again can feel emotional highs and lows, or take great joy in their life. This is why it is so easy for them to slip back into their old addictions again. I would think Ring addiction, or at least Frodo's continuing desire for the Ring would be somewhat like that.

One scene I miss in the movie, which would make clearer why Frodo had to leave, is his first illness. He cries out "it is lost, and all is darkness." IIRC. Not quite right, but my husband has the book (which he is reading for the first time.) Anyhow, I'd have traded that scene for the rather sketchy one in the Green Dragon. Although Elijah's understanding of the scene, that they are really like Viet Nam vets who've been through something no one else there has is wonderful. OK, I'd like both those scenes IN. :D

There have been so many wonderful posts recently! TG, Grumpy, Maeglian, Wendy, Alyon! So much I'd like to respond to!

Welcome HobbityMe!

Honey!

naiad

01-04-2004, 08:15 PM

That's one of the reasons why I admire Elijah Wood's acting as Frodo so much: He's playing the lead in this huge trilogy, - and he's so totally unafraid for his character to be judged a "whimp". He shows all the fear and pain, without reserve. He doesn't ACT to get the acting *noted*, either. And he shows Frodo's greatness, the mercy and all, - but in such subtle ways, easily overlooked by those looking for big dramatic gestures. Exactly, Maeglian (your posts are wonderful)! Frodo's MERCY shows even in his 'We can't do this alone' and 'Go Home' to Sam, in his 'for both our sakes' to Gollum, and even - somehow, deeply burried, in the level resolve in his last approach toward Gollum/Smeagol who now holds aloft the Ring of Power. Tg affirms this in her annotated version of Frodo's reply to Sam's 'can't you see it?'

So for me, I believe in pity so much that I want people to get it right away. I want them to want to be like Frodo. Ah well--so thus my initial reaction. Now, I know I see Frodo's pity. ...I see his beauty and his sacrifice. I probably shouldn't worry about what others see. But the message is such a good one. Beautifully said. My feelings too {{{{Alyon}}}.

Ainon - Thanks for the PJ excerpts. Knowing his thought process was heavily weighted in the direction Tolkien was at pains to express helps.

Honey - Nice comment on Frodo's first site of G upon his recovery (also on your colleagues sensitive response to rotk). Are you familiar with some of the fanfics that reveal Frodo's confused state at that point (I beleive, one is by Aratlithiel)?
Re: "What I don't understand is why Sam would actually leave...Did he really need to find the discarded lembas to propell him back up those stairs? " I didn't quite see the Sam 'flleeing' scenes that way. Sam fairly tumbled down the slope/stairs after Frodo's words - understandably. The lembas crumbs, which he ate, bolstered him with the physical and mental strength he desperately needed in order to continue the climb to follow Frodo's trail, though at a slight distance (quite as in the book).

These posts are the best! I'm dying to return for viewing #3 and plan many more to hoan in on every nuance and subtlety with which Elijah (nods to PJ) has thought to grace Frodo.

Back to the routine tomorrow..... But HAPPY 12th NIGHT (tomorrow)!!

BunnieBugs

01-04-2004, 08:49 PM

Originally posted by mel headstrong
So... do you think Elijah has read the book, or parts of the book, now? Chunks of the Frodo and Sam chapters, at least? Elijah admitted recently (was it on Conan O'Brien?) that he never finished the books. I know he started them (maybe made it half-way, if that), and that Sean read him relevant parts of the Frodo and Sam stuff, but I somehow don't think he will ever finish them himself. At least, not for a long, long time.

tgshaw

01-04-2004, 10:48 PM

Welcome, HobbityMe! :)

Originally posted by honeyelf
I love the way Frodo wakes up laughing to see Gandalf, but it's also a rather angsty moment. I imagine that upon seeing Gandalf, Frodo might think himself dead until his cousins burst into the room and onto the bed. His laughter intensifies then, like "oh, I get it, I'm still here then!"
This was talked about some in the RotK spoiler discussion thread, and I said there that I think it might have taken him even longer than that. After all, the last time he saw Merry and Pippin they were being chased by a bunch of Uruk hai--IMHO it wouldn't have been too surprising to find out they're dead, too. Seeing an elf would cause some confusion, and someone else pointed out that Legolas is the only person who comes to the door whose name Frodo doesn't say--he just looks at him. But whenever he starts sorting things out, I don't think it'd be instantaneous--I'd think he'd be in a somewhat confused state of mind for awhile. In that scene, his joy at being reunited with his friends seems to override everything else, including any concern about whether he's dead or alive, which IMHO is a lovely statement about the character.

When he and Sam are sitting there "at the end of all things" the dialogue really isn't how I understood Frodo. I always thought that a small part of why Frodo left was that he lost the capacity to remember and enjoy the simple things of his previous life as an ordinary (thought noble) hobbit.
I think I saw his memories "at the end of all things" a bit differently, as my immediate thought was that they're a reversal of what he said in the Wheel of Fire speech. When he gives that speech, he's in an extreme state of mind and body, and I think his inability to recall things is quite literal (in the book he says something about knowing that such things happened, but not having any memory of them, which is more ambiguous but, IMHO, still pretty frightening). So what I saw in the "end of all things" memories was also quite literal--that the Wheel of Fire no longer completely filled his sight and mind, allowing him to access memories again, which in itself would be a tremendous relief after what he'd been through. So I guess I saw it as more basic than being able to enjoy things as he had before--he was happy about simply being able to recall them.

Tolkien also points out that in that scene Frodo expects to die at any moment, which actually allows him to be more at peace than he would have been otherwise. His difficulties begin later, when he has to live with the scars and wounds and feelings of guilt and isolation. When watching the movie, I find part of myself wishing that he could have died then--when he was so much at peace, especially with himself.

Ariel

01-04-2004, 10:57 PM

I should be used to being at odds with the Faculty. :p Dont worry, Ill go away soon. Vacation is almost over.

I have to agree with Alyon first viewings are very disconcerting and much rubs you the wrong way, but even after one viewing I knew I would have none of the issues I had with TTT (which people tried to explain too). It gets much better with subsequent viewings, but I also think she hit close to my bane.

And (as I thought from the beginning)--Elijah is so magically sublime as Frodo, I, like all here, cannot understand why we aren't hearing everyone gush over his performance. <snip> I think I get too personally invested in wanting everybody to KNOW and to see what Frodo is doing. Not just us, who will watch and interpret and analyze--but everybody.
Bingo.

And though I know that not all book readers get Frodo, and I expected not all film goers to get him either, and though logically, I know I am the only person who needs to see him in his true light, Id sure like everyone in the world to.

I don't think Frodo's quest and sacrifice has been written enough about. I don't think Elijah's acting has been written enough about. But then my fault has been in blaming the movie for that
Well, I have been blaming the audience. :D Nothing like going to see the movie with a bunch of people who walk out saying I liked everything but the ending or who was that goof with the moony eyes?* (actual quotes heard upon exiting the theater) And the next person who praises every acting job in the film to me EXCEPT Elijahs is going to get throttled. I do hope, as others have detailed, that subsequent viewings help people see the depth in Elijahs performance. It did me, but I cant help thinking hes throwing pearls before swine.

[by tgshaw] I actively disliked Bilbo for 30 years before I started to understand him.
OK, them are fightin words ;)

[by Maeglian] Sometimes I wonder whether those who protest the portrayal as diminishing the courage and selfnessness of Frodo have unconsciously established some kind of mental "Saint Frodo" image in their mind; - that is, they've pictured Frodo like we see the saints in old paintings: Being tormented, being taunted, being killed, - but with their minds unaffected, their faces serene, gazing calmly into another reality.
I think you are wrong there. The Frodo in my mental image is the one from the book, complete with just as much angst (actually more) than the film version, snapping at Sam in the tower and fainting in Faramirs arms. Definitely angsty, definitely gritty and real. Though maybe this is where I differ from the rest of you, I guess I just dont think PJs vision is any more valid than mine is simply by virtue of him making a movie. Do I think he got things right? Yes! Do I think Elijah was brilliant? Of course, but there are things lost from book to film; there have to be, and some of those things were things I really liked. I think its silly to think that anyone (even PJ) is going to be able to make the RIGHT characterization of the characters for EVERYONE he wrote his own and used the tools (cgi and actors) he had on hand to make it darned close, in fact far closer to the spirit of the books than pretty much ANYONE else could have but, and in this I think Tolkien himself would back me, my interpretation of the book characters is naturally going to be the right one for me. PJs is excellent, but I think expecting everyone who ever read these books first to be shoehorned into someone elses interpretation (no matter how good it is) is simply asking too much.

So, Maeglian, rather than question my view of Frodo (which I think is pretty close to Tolks own words having read the thing for as many years as I have) I question PJs not saying that he got things wrong but that I think this or that might have made it closer to my own vision of Frodo. Its the exact same thing that ANYONE who had read a book and then seen a movie based on the work is likely to do. I just dont see how PJ is right and I am wrong but rather they were slightly different views of a very complex story.

Ariel

BLOSSOM

01-05-2004, 01:37 AM

So many wonderful posts over the last week or so, ladies - Maeg, Tg, ainon, Ariel, Alyon, Honeyelf, Whiteling, Mel, naiad, Lady Wendy - hope I haven't forgotten anyone. So many views and opinions to digest. So many things to respond to, and I never seem to fit them all in, so I'll just attempt a couple.

Originally posted by Tg:
There's one part of the movie where I have a hard time following my own advice, and not dropping my eyes or looking at something else. It's absolutely excruciating for me. That's Frodo's panic and terror (for lack of stronger words) in Shelob's lair. It starts when he realizes he can't tell which direction Smeagol is calling from, and ends with him as a cowering heap as far away from the passage as he can push himself, with even his hands drawn in to his body. And I know it's so difficult for me not just because it's frightening to think of myself in a similar situation, or because I'm afraid of what's coming next. It's mainly because I don't want to admit that Frodo could be a cowering heap! Would most people be cowering heaps in that situation? I sure think so! I wouldn't think less of anyone for it.
__________________________________________

I wouldn't think less of anyone for being terror-stricken in Frodo's situation there either, Tg. His reaction in Shelob's Lair is very real, and IMHO very 'human.' His initial despair when he realizes Gollum's betrayal, and knows that he is very much alone, is palpable. As a viewer I feel Frodo's fear, I share his sense of desperation, loss and wretchedness as he speaks Sam's name with tears in his eyes.

Shelob's Lair - 'Sam.' (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/SLxSamx.gif)

Originally posted by Maeglian:
I'm very curious about how this reviewer would have liked to see the courage, humility etc. portrayed in the film. What PJ is doing, IMO, is showing us all of this; - but in a "realistic" setting where the heros also happen to despair, make errors, fail, quarrel, be frightened out of their wits, etc. The fact that they have these "failings", to me only serve to emphasise the courage and selflessness they show in nevertheless perservering - going on, going on, never giving up. When Frodo has fought off Gollum after Shelob's lair, he has nothing left. No phial, no Sting, no food, no guide, no friend and helper...... For a moment he despairs, but then he sets his jaw and goes on.
_____________________________________________

My feelings exactly, Maeg.

I love Frodo's expression of resolve immediatley after he 'sees' Galadriel. He finds courage in the midst of his despair, and he goes on.

Shelob's Lair - Frodo's resolve (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/SL2cr.gif)

These gifs are small in size, but if you save them you can zoom in to make them larger. I'm limited to file size on IM, more's the pity.
Btw, if anyone would like to see gifs of any particular Frodo ROTK scene. please ask. I'd be more than happy to oblige. I realize the quality isn't great - roll on August and the TE DVD. I'm slowly working my way through, but it's quite laborious having to stretch each individual screencap before you can animate the sequence. So who needs a life? Not me.:) Maeg, hopefully I should be posting an End Of All Things gif within the next couple of days.

One of the most moving ROTK scenes for me is this one:

Frodo's Torment (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/FrodoxsTorment.gif)

I posted this gif just before Christmas, and Im posting it again because of the profound effect this very short scene had on me. I recall it vividly from the book - and was thrilled to see that PJ had included it in the film. This is one of the images that kept swimming around in my head after my first viewing of ROTK, but this one in particular stands out in my mind because of how I felt when watching it. I think I now know why it resonates with me so strongly. Seeing that scene played out on screen reminds me of how I felt when I saw my desperately ill father lying in a hospital intensive care ward, hooked up to countless machines. Its seeing someone I love suffering, and knowing theres nothing I can do to help, nothing I can do to relieve that suffering. I wanted to run as far away as possible so I wouldnt have to see him suffer, so I wouldnt have to see him like that - my father but not my father.
This is exactly how this image of Frodo fending off the vision of the Eye/Wheel of Fire makes me feel. I see his suffering, and its harrowing. Its heart-breaking to witness Frodos physical and mental decline, to see him clutching the Ring in his right hand as if to shield it, to prevent the Eye from seeing it, while his left arm swats at the air, trying to wipe the vision he sees 'with his waking eyes away. It makes me feel how Sam must feel there, as hes walking behind Frodo, watching his friend become weaker, witnessing his suffering, his constant internal struggle against an evil that Sam surely cannot fully comprehend. I dont know how Elijah did it, but once again, as ever IMO, he nailed this scene to perfection.

Which brings me to a quote from PJ in the LOTR Official Movie Guide, talking about Elijah being cast as Frodo:
What can I say about Elijah? Elijah is playing Frodo as if he actually were a hobbit caught in these circumstances and dealing with them in the only way that he possibly can - as a hobbit. You feel, seeing the films, that its not acting or performance, which makes it very real. I cant possibly imagine anyone else in the world who would be better suited for the role of Frodo Baggins.
________________________________________

Many people have remarked how it is possibly this realism, this sense of not seeming to be acting, as the reason for Elijah getting so little critical praise/recognition for these films. I really do not understand this. This is what great acting is all about - making it appear real to the viewer, so youre not thinking This is an actor playing a part, but This is the character and these things are happening to him. Throughout the trilogy IMO Elijah is outstanding. His performance embraces and emotes beautifully all of Frodos own strengths and failings - blame PJ and co for any film failings/weakness not book-canon. Elijahs portrayal of Frodo is profoundly moving, he has a depth and complexity that belies the actors years. Elijahs Frodo is open and honest, subtle and measured, light and dark, at once real and ethereal. Elijah is Frodo. Praise him with great praise!

Welcome Lady Wendy and ElenorSam. It's always nice to have new voices to listen to. Glad you both found your way here.

Shireling - are you there? I was happy to see that you have now posted some thoughts on ROTK in your LJ. Hope you're feeling better after your 'flu bug. Sending hugs and tissues - for the 'flu and Frodo.:)

End of rambling thoughts.
Bye.

ainon

01-05-2004, 01:45 AM

Welcome HobbityMe! Pull up a chair, join us! :)

Whoa. The Faculty has been busy! Great posts, everyone. I'd love to hear more of Alyon's Daughter's take on things too. :)

Originally posted by tgshaw
I actively disliked Bilbo for 30 years before I started to understand him.

:rolleyes: Problem there, tg, is that you never read "The Hobbit" first. If you had, then you'd have been grumpy about who this upstart of a Frodo Baggins is, and why does Bilbo have to go? Why? Why? :D :D

I've yet to start a conversation with a stranger about LOTR. And I certainly don't know what I'd do to a stranger who says to my face, "What? That bug-eyed fellow? Couldn't stand him!" I think I'm non-violent, but .... :o OTOH, I do have RL acquantainces who clearly don't give Frodo a second thought. Sigh. And I read a local review recently where the reviewer decided that RotK is an incredible movie but doesn't have Oscar-worthy performances, and Elijah's certainly nowhere up there where fine and brilliant performances shine. :rolleyes: But I'm just gonna write him off as an idiot because see, he complains that third movie doesn't have enough Elves, unlike the first two movies, and then he goes and says that the Elves at Helm's Deep was a travesty, and so if we're gonna have a reviewer going on and on about Elves and not hobbits, then he ain't worthy of the honour of reviewing RotK. :p

Originally posted by Maeglian
This is one of the complaints I've seen the most concerning the portrayal of Frodo - that his pity and mercy aren't very clear, especially since he never *talks* about it during RotK.

Oh sure. And I suppose if Frodo *had* talked about it at the end there then there'd be more people grumping 'why does PJ have to hammer that point home so blunty? he's afraid the audience can't get it? couldn't he figure out a subtle way to do it?!" :p

After all, the notion of pity and mercy were established in the movies as far back as FotR, and it's the three movies together make up one story. It's true that it's not quite fair to expect everyone to remember stuff from a movie that came out two years ago, and I guess even if they didn't have Frodo actually talking about it, we could have had Gandalf mentioning it in yet another exposition scene - but I love the movie the way it is. At the very end, when it's just Frodo and Sam together and the Ring has been destroyed, I'll take Frodo's memories and Sam's Rosie with ribbons in her hair anytime. As Maeg mentioned, everything's already there to see and understand through the three movies. Better to have a memorable scene of such exquisite heart-wrenching angst than a tutorial about the importance of forgiving wretches, surely? ;)

I love Frodo waking up and seeing Gandalf. Is it just me - my take is that Frodo does know he's waking up alive (because I like the idea that maybe Frodo sees that an eagle has him airborne, and as he drifts off he has the sense that he's flying, and that he's safe after all) and then seeing Gandalf - that was the last thing he expected and he can't believe for a moment that Gandalf is real. I love the way Gandalf's concerned face then crinkles up into that smile, and the two of them start laughing together. It mirrors the first time we see the two together in FotR, and yet it brings home just how much heartache the two have had to face since that time.

Lady Wendy, you're so gonna be happy here. Perfect sick company for endless, endless angstings. ;) Have you checked out tgshaw's marvelous Frodo being stabbed by WiKi pictorial analysis (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id162.htm)? :cool: Okay, so tg wasn't doing it for the sake of letting us see Frodo get stabbed, but uh, well, it does let us see a frame-by-frame of Frodo getting stabbed, which is always nice and uh ... I'll quit now. :o

honeyelf

01-05-2004, 02:09 AM

Blossom, wonderful gifs and thoughts! Ariel, don't go away so soon! If we all agreed it would get might boring around here! Great post as ever TG!

TG
His difficulties begin later, when he has to live with the scars and wounds and feelings of guilt and isolation.

Yes! But I also expect that there was some Ring-withdrawal early on. And then depression, which does diminish enjoyment, and kind of leave you in a state of "greyness."

Maeglian:
Sometimes I wonder whether those who protest the portrayal as diminishing the courage and selfnessness of Frodo have unconsciously established some kind of mental "Saint Frodo" image in their mind; - that is, they've pictured Frodo like we see the saints in old paintings: Being tormented, being taunted, being killed, - but with their minds unaffected, their faces serene, gazing calmly into another reality.

I've only ever read the books twice, (so far! can hardly wait to crack them again!) and that is exactly how I read Frodo the first time through. I saw St. Frodo trying to patch things up between Gollum and Sam. And I actually thought the movies had ratchetted up the angst somewhat.

But then I read it again this past fall. This time I read it out loud to myself. Just me and a little glass of wine and a very lovely book. I really picked up a lot more of the subtleties of the story, partly because of the repeat reading, and partly because of the lines being so much more lyrical, profound when spoken aloud.

Ariel:

The Frodo in my mental image is the one from the book, complete with just as much angst (actually more) than the film version, snapping at Sam in the tower and fainting in Faramirs arms. Definitely angsty, definitely gritty and real.

Yes, fainting into Faramir's arms was one of the things that made me sit up and take notice that something was going on here. Here's Sam -- frankly a little drunk -- and having just spilled everything, and Frodo just kind of does a little shut-down.

Another moment was when they are on the Gorgoroth, and Sam comes back from finding water or something. He finds Frodo laying flat on his back, his arms outstretched, staring straight up into the sky! Whoa! He's at war there, battling against the eye, and his total prone-ness, pronality? is indicative of a very intense inner strain.

Blossom:

This is exactly how this image of Frodo fending off the vision of the Eye/Wheel of Fire makes me feel. I see his suffering, and its harrowing. Its heart-breaking to witness Frodos physical and mental decline, to see him clutching the Ring in his right hand as if to shield it, to prevent the Eye from seeing it, while his left arm swats at the air, trying to wipe the vision he sees 'with his waking eyes away. It makes me feel how Sam must feel there, as hes walking behind Frodo, watching his friend become weaker, witnessing his suffering, his constant internal struggle against an evil that Sam surely cannot fully comprehend.

Yes! That is a wonderfully chilling moment!

Another that I love is the scene at Minas Morgul, when the WiKi has just emerged, and is shrieking. The hobbits' reactions, and especially Frodo; "I can feel his blade!" Just a really powerful and frightening moment.

But I can't help wishing that Frodo had his moment there when he reaches for the Ring and finds the star phial instead. I loved that moment in the book, with the WiKi coming full on at him, and then turning away at the last moment. And then Sam supporting him across the bridge.

Honey!

shireling

01-05-2004, 10:41 AM

Shireling - are you there? I was happy to see that you have now posted some thoughts on ROTK in your LJ. Hope you're feeling better after your 'flu bug. Sending hugs and tissues - for the 'flu and Frodo.

Yes, I'm here Blossom:) I am better now thanks. Have been reading through all the wonderful posts here - don't feel that the few ramblings I put on my LJ can compare really.

Thank you for the lovely gifs you've been posting - particularly 'Frodo's Torment' - what a moving scene that was!

One thing I did mention on my LJ - I'd loved to have seen just one flashback to Frodo as he was in the early Shire scenes in FOTR - a sort of shock reminder of how happy and carefree he was compared to how he is on the slopes of Mount Doom - perhaps Sam remembering this as he watches him. Ok, I know we don't need reminding but possibly this could drive it home to the less obsessed (unfortunately that would seem to be the majority of the audience in my case) , and I'm a sucker for flashbacks anyway.

Loved what you said here, Blossom:

Throughout the trilogy IMO Elijah is outstanding. His performance embraces and emotes beautifully all of Frodos own strengths and failings - blame PJ and co for any film failings/weakness not book-canon. Elijahs portrayal of Frodo is profoundly moving, he has a depth and complexity that belies the actors years. Elijahs Frodo is open and honest, subtle and measured, light and dark, at once real and ethereal. Elijah is Frodo. Praise him with great praise!

You have expressed my feelings perfectly - praise him with great praise indeed!!

Am hoping to go to Viewing No. 3 tomorrow:D

Narya Celebrian

01-05-2004, 11:13 AM

Originally posted by honeyelf
But I can't help wishing that Frodo had his moment there when he reaches for the Ring and finds the star phial instead.

Oh, but they did include this moment - but in Shelob's lair, instead of at Minas Morgul. When Frodo falls on his back, his hand originally reaches for the ring, and then the look on his face changes, and he reaches for the phial instead. I really appreciated that this was included - but I think it goes by fairly quickly, so it's easy to miss.

BTW, I've been loving the discussion here. Thanks to tg and Maeglian particularly, I haven't had to go to all the work of writing out my long thoughts on the issues - you two have been articulating them perfectly. Thanks! :D :k

honeyelf

01-05-2004, 11:25 AM

Of course you're right, Narya, and I did see that moment. But I really like that the phial can turn away the WiKi too.

For that matter I wish they'd put in the bit where Frodo holds up the star phial as the ship is sailing away. In the books it seems the phial some how focuses it's weilder's courage. When Frodo holds up the phial on the ship it's as if he's telling Sam "I'm not leaving because I lack the hope or courage to continue, but because I still have hope and courage." I think Sam needed to know, that this wasn't the equivalent of choosing death, but a last act of courage.

Of course with the ship sailing into the setting sun, maybe he did and I've just missed it to date because of all the light around it.

Honey!

Flourish

01-05-2004, 12:39 PM

When Frodo holds up the phial on the ship it's as if he's telling Sam "I'm not leaving because I lack the hope or courage to continue, but because I still have hope and courage." I think Sam needed to know, that this wasn't the equivalent of choosing death, but a last act of courage.

Honeyelf, that's such a lovely thought. The depth of meaning in that scene (and what we all bring to it) seems inexhaustible.
:)

zkgrumpy

01-05-2004, 01:30 PM

Problem there, tg, is that you never read "The Hobbit" first. If you had, then you'd have been grumpy about who this upstart of a Frodo Baggins is, and why does Bilbo have to go? Why? Why?

Oh, yes, I remember feeling the same way. Who the heck does this Frodo guy think he is? <g> Then I got sucked into the book and read the whole thing in one weekend (ah, youth - I was 23 or 24 at the time)

From Honeyelf (I'm *trying* to remember people's names! Honest!):

When Frodo holds up the phial on the ship it's as if he's telling Sam "I'm not leaving because I lack the hope or courage to continue, but because I still have hope and courage." I think Sam needed to know, that this wasn't the equivalent of choosing death, but a last act of courage.
:) [/B]

tgshaw has this as part of her sig. It's from Rivendell (book):

'Still that must be expected,' said Gandalf to himself. 'He is not half through yet, and to what he will come in the end not even Elrond can foretell. Not to evil, I think. He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.' --from Many Meetings

I see the white robe/wheel of fire/stern Frodo scene as the fulfillment of Gandalf's Rivendell musings. I see the phial scene when the ship sailed away as the bookend to what Gandalf said.

Pardon me while I burst into tears, willya?

I wish I could explain why, whenever I think of Frodo and the Grey Havens, I get a tremendous feeling of grief and bitterness and loss in the pit of my stomach. Between Sam's "...and I can't come", and "You cannot always be torn in two", and "All that I have, or might have had..." (there it is, I think - "might have had"), and the image of the last thing Sam sees of Frodo is the phial, it just breaks my heart. I don't think any book (Jane Eyre runs a close second) has ever had that effect on me.

PJ's version, with the backward look and smile, softened the whole thing and gave us hope that Frodo was going to be well and happy again. I didn't feel that in the book.

Whatever Tolkein's vision of that scene was, that's how it hits me every darned time. And now I've got tears running down my face yet again.

Dang, I love that hobbit.

2.5 hours till I see RotK again. :::: cheering up slightly ::::

~grumpy

tgshaw

01-05-2004, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by ainon
Problem there, tg, is that you never read "The Hobbit" first. If you had, then you'd have been grumpy about who this upstart of a Frodo Baggins is, and why does Bilbo have to go? Why? Why?
Exactly! I read LotR first, immediately fell in love with Frodo and thought Bilbo was a coldhearted jerk to run out on him just because he wanted another "holiday." :mad: Then, to top it off, he sits in Rivendell for years without even letting Frodo know he's alive and well! (That's the only thing I didn't like about him--but, well, since it affected Frodo, that was enough!)

The point of my post, though, was that my opinion changed when I got to understand Bilbo better, so there's hope for people who don't quite "get" Frodo now. So, ariel, no need for a fight ;) -- Now, ten years ago... :eek:

I've (of course :o ) written something about the affair for anyone who's interested: An Apology to Bilbo (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id124.htm)

Regarding Frodo not using the phial when the WiKi passes by--I'm guessing PJ & Co. didn't want Frodo (or the audience ;) ) to think of it at that point, in order to make it more unexpected in Shelob's lair.

-------------I'm posting from work. Had written some stuff on the phial at the Grey Havens that got eaten (the stuff got eaten, not the phial or the Grey Havens :rolleyes: ) but don't have time right now to redo it (or figure out a better way to word this sentence :p ). Will try to add something later.

Hobmom

01-05-2004, 02:33 PM

Been reading all the great posts here.

I think it's taken me the three viewings I've gotten in so far to be able to relax enough and really begin to appreciate what a brilliant movie ROTK is and how excellent Elijah is. The film is SO huge and packed with so much emotion that I just couldn't take it all in the first one or even two times.

My third viewing was a few days ago and I really began to LOVE this film. And of course Love, Love, Love Elijah's Frodo!

There definitely are those certain people in each audience who just don't seem to get Elijah or Frodo and fortunately a good number of those who DO. Those who like me and my Mom just sit there at the end not wanting to move. It's such a relief to look around the theater as the credits and the beautiful portraits of the cast roll(Elijah's is the FIRST ONE! Thank you, PJ!) to see others sitting their wiping their tears away or just as unable to budge as I am. We 'non-leavers' seem to sorely perplex the poor clueless young ushers standing around with their tidy-up brooms. I mean "What are we sitting there like that for?" "How dare we?"
And we just look at them sadly because they just don't have 'the eyes to see'.

Then there are *shakes head* the 'elf fans'. There was one Orli fan..OK I like Orli but REALLY!..... sitting in our row last time who actually got up during the 'wheel of fire' and 'end of all things' scenes to go to the bathroom!!!! She deliberately waited for those scenes because 'the elf' wasn't in them! At least she didn't go past us but went out her end of the aisle or I would have been tempted to trip her. Philistine! (Where is Serena when I use the word Philistine? Where is Serena?)

I cannot understand how some people cannot see how wonderful Elijah is as Frodo and what he has accomplished. WHY can't they see it? Even if I didn't have this crush on him that I do I would SEE that he is a brilliant, one of a kind, actor. His talent is undeniable. And remember I was one of those ones who cringed when it was first announced that Elijah was going to play Frodo. Of course he totally won me over but I didn't WANT to like him. But look at me now!

And then there are those who only see how great Sean is in this movie. And he is! Sean is really wonderful and I hope he gets a supporting Oscar ...but.... Elijah is an actor in a class all by himself and he deserves his Best Actor Award. It is everything that he does in his beautifully nuanced portrayal that is the heartbreaking back drop for everything else in the three films. Every other character's actions hinge on what Frodo does. Sean can only react to what Elijah put out there for him to react to. And Elijah gave him more than enough.

Those gifs are so heartbreaking to watch. Thanks BLOSSOM! They really show the depth of Elijah's talent. He makes you really FEEL what Frodo is feeling. The utter terror in Shelob's Lair. The horror of always having that EYE filling his mind as he so painfully tries to brush it away with his so-very-weak hands. His complete exhaustion of body, mind and spirit. It HURTS to watch him. It's SUPPOSED to hurt!

Maybe that's what bothers some average movie-gers. Elijah makes them feel and perhaps some would rather not feel those things. They'd rather laugh or look away or giggle about 'the elf'.

Well, I can't wait to see ROTK again and wallow in the exquisite Elijah induced angst. I'll probably see this as many times as I did FOTR if not more. It just gets better and better each time I see it.

I think the highest praise I've heard personally came from my Aged Mom, who generally doesn't want to sit so long for a film.... After our last viewing as she was pretending not to be sniffling she said "Let's stay and see it again!" And she would have, too!
Then on the way out she said that the parts that really got to her were "Wheel of fire" and "end of all things". Of course she wouldn't call them that but she was able to recognize that THOSE were the scenes that mattered. Go Mom! I have trained her very well.:D

Maeglian

01-05-2004, 02:50 PM

Oh my! I did a totally stupid thing! :rolleyes: For whatever reason I popped the EE FotR in the DVD player and watched the film for all of 5 measly minutes: From Sam and Frodo stand in that corn field and Sam worries over the next step being the "furthest from home he's ever been" - right through to when Sam complains he'll never be able to sleep out in the wilds.

With RotK fresh in mind, the contrasts and comparisons were just about enough to *slay* me!

The food and comforts, now: Sam preparing that pan of fat sausages while they're smoking their pipes..... and after Sam complains that he can't sleep, he grabs some comfort food and starts chewing away while Frodo does his rosy-cheeked "secret Sam smile". I've never noticed Sam eating there before, but NOW I do! Oh, the contrast to RotK! :(

And their camping and sleeping out of doors: With blankets, and a nice fire going, at with full bellies..... and yet Sam complains he'll *never* be able to sleep out there. The contrast to the 2 of them sleeping on that stony precipice above Minas Morgul! :(

Not to mention them watching the elves departing for the Grey Havens! **Meep! Meep!**
At one point I'd *love* to have a comparison pic between Frodo and Sam as FotR Sam says "I don't know why ..... it makes me sad" and Frodo and Sam *at* the Havens. At the end of the FotR scene there, Frodo is quite pale, and still, and pensive-looking. Not all that unlike how he looks at the Grey Havens, perhaps...... But there are differences.

**sniff**

Your gifs are the BEST, Blossom! Thank you once more! :)

Ariel, I wasn't trying to make a case for PJ being right and everybody disagreeing with him in anything being wrong. Very sorry if it came across that way. I should have qualified the paragrah to state more clearly that my reaction was based on some newspaper reviews I've read, where I honestly get the feeling that the reviewers can't have taken time to envisage how the horrors Frodo experiences would impact him *at all*, and so complain on the underlying basis that the way he *is* being portrayed makes them feel really uncomfortable.

Hobmom, how great about your mother! My mother asked me some little time back whether a hobbit was the same as a rabbit. :rolleyes:

Lady Wendy

01-05-2004, 03:26 PM

Ainon,
Lady Wendy, you're so gonna be happy here. Perfect sick company for endless, endless angstings.

OH FAB!!!...You can never have too much Frodo, IMO, specially since the illustrious Mr Wood has seen fit to bring him to life in such a flawless performance !! I was much impressed with TG's website...
TG, you're a genius for analysing EJW's micro-expression-acting...this is something I hadn't even considered, but now you come to mention it, it really IS true, isn't it ? I think that, really, I've known this all along about Elijah, but haven't given it crystallized thought, if you know what I mean !! What he can do with his eyebrows is truly a wonder to behold :D :D :D...as for the stabbing at Weathertop, yes, it all does seem to be in the tiny facial muscles, which he doesn't necessarily have control over, but somehow he manages to convey the tiniest shifts in his thought processes, and emotions, thus conveying volumes without actually opening his mouth...next to this talent, the script is almost, but not quite, redundant !!!

Honeyelf,
Yes...There are a few scenes that I wish had been included...Frodo collapsing into Faramir's arms with sheer mental and physical exhaustion would have been wonderful, but this wouldn't have fitted in with the film version of Faramir, methinks...

Frodo holding up the star-glass after fumbling for the Ring, for the first time to ward off the Witch-King would have also been a fabulous moment...
And, of course the final holding up of the star-glass on the boat as it sailed away from the Grey Havens, dwindling to a point of light as it faded into the Western horizon would have been a magical last moment for Frodo...kind of like a star being set into the sky for the first time, to commemorate him and his sacrifice for the whole of Middle-Earth...to remind Sam of his dearest friend who left...

Did anyone else half expect Frodo to fade into a sepia-coloured drawing when he turned and smiled at the camera for such a long time at the end of the Grey Havens scene ?

When I read that chapter in the book, I was left with a very tangible sense of Frodo passing away into the mists of time, to be remembered only as a legend, even after thousands of years, and generations of Sam's descendents had been born and died, Frodo was still remembered as a Hero of the past...this made me unimaginably sad, as no book-passage has ever done before or since...

whiteling

01-05-2004, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by Lady Wendy

Did anyone else half expect Frodo to fade into a sepia-coloured drawing when he turned and smiled at the camera for such a long time at the end of the Grey Havens scene ?

Oh, YES :) !! *sigh* - what a beautiful image! This almost painted smile made me literally hover out of the theatre...

(((Faculty))), I bow in awe to all the admirable posts recently - :notworthy: - and Blossom, your gifs are awesome!
Thank you all so much!

WELCOME, ElanorSam and Hobbityme :) :) !

tgshaw

01-05-2004, 04:07 PM

Edit: A couple of posts snuck in there (not unusual when I try to do this from the office--often have to write a sentence or two and come back later). But I just wanted to say to Lady Wendy that just about everything on my website--and, I'd say, everything in the "glossary"--harkens back in one way or another to the Faculty :) . The microexpression theory is a good example, as one person (peaceweaver, maybe?) ran across an article on the scientist who was studying it, and shared it here because it made her think of Elijah. I found a couple of the researcher's articles online. And things just kind of went from there. This thread is really a great international collaborative research group! :k

Although I know other people do occasionally visit my website, the Faculty is who I try to keep in mind as my "audience" when I decide what to post. So requests are always welcome. I won't be putting any RotK pics there until the DVD officially comes out, as I keep it "crebain-free" to make the amazon.com police happy :) .

Originally posted by Hobmom
It's such a relief to look around the theater as the credits and the beautiful portraits of the cast roll(Elijah's is the FIRST ONE! Thank you, PJ!) to see others sitting their wiping their tears away or just as unable to budge as I am. We 'non-leavers' seem to sorely perplex the poor clueless young ushers standing around with their tidy-up brooms.
Yes, it's nice to not be the only one there at the end of the credits this time around :p . I've written more about that in the Completely Postive Celebration Zone thread (not the exact title) in the RotK part of the Trilogy forum.

Our ushers have been very nice about it all--considering they have to clean the place up quickly to get it ready for the next showing :) . I try to move out of their way when they get to my row.

think the highest praise I've heard personally came from my Aged Mom, who generally doesn't want to sit so long for a film.... After our last viewing as she was pretending not to be sniffling she said "Let's stay and see it again!" And she would have, too!

Well, I posted about this in the other thread, too, and thought it might be best if that's the only place I talked about it :o . But, strange as it seems, I found that two in a row did help settle the emotional overload ;) .

Hobmom

01-05-2004, 04:49 PM

I hope my last post was Elijah-centric enough. Though I veered a bit into ROTK territory I was concentrating on Elwood and his performance.

I'm finding I'm only just beginning to let it sink in that ROTK is finally here and I've seen it and Elijah's magnificent Frodo three times already. And the beauty and poignancy of the whole experience is beginning to gel more clearly as a whole for me now.

So much was done just right. And Elijah did everything he was given to do SO WELL that I will be watching this movie till the DVDs wear out. (When we get them.) Even more than I do with FOTR.

So I guess I am still in rambling mode when I post about ROTK, Frodo and Elijah. And this makes it difficult to stay purely on-topic. But it seems this is an after-effect from the films that is working its way into all of our posts of late.

Let's call it Post-ROTK Frolijah Syndrome.

Edit- Tg.... I keep meaning to tell you I love your quote from Elizabeth Barret Browning. A lady after my own heart, she was. Is that a direct quote or a paraphrase. I must get her poems.

tgshaw

01-05-2004, 05:36 PM

Originally posted by Hobmom
So I guess I am still in rambling mode when I post about ROTK, Frodo and Elijah. And this makes it difficult to stay purely on-topic. But it seems this is an after-effect from the films that is working its way into all of our posts of late.

Let's call it Post-ROTK Frolijah Syndrome.
I agree--it's awfully hard to keep things in their separate "compartments" right now :) . But IMHO that just shows how well everything came together in the movie.

Edit- Tg.... I keep meaning to tell you I love your quote from Elizabeth Barret Browning. A lady after my own heart, she was. Is that a direct quote or a paraphrase. I must get her poems.
As far as I know, it's a direct quote. The reason it says "by ear" at the end is because I was scribbling it down in church on Christmas, as the priest opened his homily with it. He was kind enough ;) to repeat it at the end, so I could check what I'd written. But I can't say if it's completely correct.

What it brought to my mind immediately was the thought from this thread about people who see a unicorn walking down the street and say, "Huh, weird horse." I figure those are the ones who sit around plucking blackberries :) .

IMVHO, it resonates with how Tolkien looked at things, although he would have worded it differently. And I see it very much fitting in with the other two quotes in the sig.

naiad

01-05-2004, 09:30 PM

Dear Ariel - Your last post was excellent! The pull of the book, the draw of the film, you described perfectly. Your comments very much align with my own thoughts about the original and the interpretation (especially your mental image of Fro - "Definitely angsty, definitely gritty and real") . And I love that avitar :D

Amazingly, it's Elijah's Frodo, particularly in ROTK, which brings PJ's vision into confluence with Tolkien's. The portrayal of this character, who's integrity on screen I most feared for, turns out to be what I love most about the films. And when I think how easily PJ could have botched Frodo and gratuitously muddied Middle Earth (in light of the blubbering Arwin travesty in fotr, glaring discontinuties and dearth of Frodo in TTT, and even much of the TTT commentary) ~shudder~.

The Gray Havens and CU were about as perfect as I could have hoped, with Frodo's compassion and bravery at work in both scenes.

Lady Wendy, don't you think Frodo's Parting Smile (as you say, nearly fading into the eternity of a work of art) quite made up for the omission of the raised star-glass? I even decided (as soon as I saw it) that Frodo's collapse as he tries to separate the fighting S & G, MIGHT make up for the lost swoon into Faramir's arms - almost.

One omission I missed terribly - the episodes of Frodo's declining health, first noticed by Gandalf on the Weathertop anniversary ("Are you in pain, Frodo?").

What Narya said about your posts Tg, Maeg et al.

Heartrending gifs, Blossom, and your comments as well.

{{{Hobmom's Mom}}}

Missed planned 3rd rotk viewing last night, due to foul weather. Now must wait til NEXT weekend to see his performance - I mean the movie- again... :rolleyes:

Oh, and uhh, I hope it's ok to repeat these from Alyon and Ariel, a little bit out of context:Elijah is so magically sublime as Frodo, I ... cannot understand why we aren't hearing everyone gush over his performance. I think I get too personally invested in wanting everybody to KNOW and to see what Frodo is doing. Not just us...--but everybody. ........I don't think Frodo's quest and sacrifice has been written enough about. I don't think Elijah's acting has been written enough about. I know that not all book readers get Frodo, and I expected not all film goers to get him either, and though logically, I know I am the only person who needs to see him in his true light, Id sure like everyone in the world to.

Ramble, ramble,..... sorry :rolleyes: Will stop.

ElanorSam

01-05-2004, 10:43 PM

Thanks for all the welcomes! I love this thread - some of the most interesting and profound discussion about ROTK on the net is taking place right here!

honeyelf

01-06-2004, 12:25 AM

Grumpy:
I wish I could explain why, whenever I think of Frodo and the Grey Havens, I get a tremendous feeling of grief and bitterness and loss in the pit of my stomach. Between Sam's "...and I can't come", and "You cannot always be torn in two", and "All that I have, or might have had..." (there it is, I think - "might have had"), and the image of the last thing Sam sees of Frodo is the phial, it just breaks my heart. I don't think any book (Jane Eyre runs a close second) has ever had that effect on me.

The Grey Havens, book or movie, always makes my cry like I've never cried at any such before. But, while it is so sad, it is also hopeful. Perhaps I see it that way because I'm a christian, and I have a strong belief in an after-life. Whatever the case I see hope as well as grief.

I think Frodo left as much for Sam as for himself. He blessed Sam with "too much to be, and do, and enjoy..." as well as "all I have, or ever would have had." And he knew, I think, that Sam could not have come to his full potential, as husband, father and mayor of the Shire, with Frodo remaining in Middle Earth, and Sam loving him too much to watch him struggle with his demons, and not try to do something.

It reminds me of that scene at the end of "Saving Private Ryan" when Tom Hanks tells Matt Daymon, with his dying breath "Earn this." Frodo wanted Sam to enjoy the Shire that they had fought so hard to save. It seems to me that when Frodo says that Sam -- as a ring-bearer -- may also come to Valinor one day, it is really contigent on Sam living a good, useful life. (That was not how I saw it on my first reading; then I understood it as "it may be granted by the powers that be if they they wish" but I didn't think Sam had any input. Now I think his life of service to the Shire was how he "earned this.")

OK, now I've gotta hunt up the tissues.

Bear with me here a minute, while I digress. Promise that I will be right back to the topic at hand.

I just finished watching an excellent series on PBS called "Manor House." A modern family was ensconced in a manor house,while individuals volunteered to act as their servants. They were recreating life as the two classes would have lived it in 1911, up until the beginning of WWI, over the period of three months. There was much resentment on the service side of the equation; they did not think that the people upstairs appreciated the sacrifice of self, individuality and freedom made to keep the masters happy and carefree. In the last episode they talked about the war, how the young masters of these very wealthy families often took servants with them. (Nearly come full circle now!) The college age son of the Sir and Lady of the house was saying that, given that circumstance, he didn't believe he could have returned to the old life of being waited on by his servants, that he's have had to re-examine that relationship. It was quite moving when I think that those young men and their servants were what inspired JRRT.

Honey!

shadowcatshadow

01-06-2004, 03:47 AM

I heard somewhere that Elijah said he wants to play Someone who is Messed Up in the head. Was this what he meant by the Hitman he played in "Chain of Fools?" or did he mean an abusive guy, sort of like a Dorian Gray tye or Edward Hyde has a good looking ladies man?

ainon

01-06-2004, 09:43 AM

Blossom! THANK YOU! :k :k We'd simulposted yesterday and somehow I missed seeing your gifs till much later. Requests? Well ... I don't know if ... aww heck. We all know how sick and depraved I am. :p Could you please do a gif of Frodo reacting to the WiKi at Minas Morgul? You know. "I can feel his blade."? :bats eyelids and pretends that the question is really just a sweet, innocent question: ;) It's such splendid acting by Elijah, no? Those micro-expressions waiting to be studied! Parallels to Weathertop and the Dead Marshes! Oh fine. So I'll come right out and say it. The Angst!

I was watching parts of the TTT SEE DVD last night and I noticed this: in the Dead Marshes, the Nazgul flies overhead, Frodo grabs his shoulder and we see a flashback of the WiKi stabbing at Frodo, and then we cut back to Frodo's face reacting to the pain in the Dead Marshes. In RotK, Gandalf is telling Pippin about the Witch King of Angmar, and there's flashback to Weathertop - Frodo's scream of pain as he's stabbed. And then, when the scene comes in Minas Morgul where Frodo grabs at his shoulder again -- no more flashbacks. The fact had already been established by the two previous differing POV flashbacks. :cool:

Lady Wendy:
When I read that chapter in the book, I was left with a very tangible sense of Frodo passing away into the mists of time, to be remembered only as a legend, even after thousands of years, and generations of Sam's descendents had been born and died, Frodo was still remembered as a Hero of the past...this made me unimaginably sad, as no book-passage has ever done before or since...

I know that feeling you speak of, although for me it came from reading the Appendix, and noting Frodo's place in history where he'll be remembered long after all others had passed, and until come the day when even he will be forgotten. It was the somewhat dry recorded bits of history in the Appendix that really made LOTR feel 'real' to me, I suppose, made me believe that Frodo Baggins could have lived once long ago, and made safe the world for us. Strange as it sounds, I'd say it was the Appendix that lifted LOTR from being a mere novel to something that I really wish had been real history.

Honey, thanks for telling us about 'Manor House'. And I've always been very touched by Tom Hanks' "Earn this" in Saving Private Ryan, so I like the analogy you've drawn there.

Hobmom, that's great to know, that your mom enjoyed the movie, and all the scenes that really mattered! :D

And ... back to our geek of honour. :)

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11695.jpg

zkgrumpy

01-06-2004, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
I heard somewhere that Elijah said he wants to play Someone who is Messed Up in the head. Was this what he meant by the Hitman he played in "Chain of Fools?" or did he mean an abusive guy, sort of like a Dorian Gray tye or Edward Hyde has a good looking ladies man?

I saw RotK for the 2nd time last night. During the previews, they showed previews of "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind". Way too much of Jim Carrey, way too little of The Lad Himself (Who's the star of that thing, anyway? And can I endure a Jim Carrey movie for the sake of Elijah?). I think there were exactly two tiny clips - one of him opening a door, another with his eyeballs falling out. Is that what he means by playing a guy who is Messed Up in the head? :eek:

Slow night; there were only about 10 people in the theater. It was matinee pricing, too, so was only $6. Everybody was very quiet, except for the sniffling that started during the "strawberries" scene and continued past the Grey Havens. I think only one person left during the credits.

Unlike first time, I bawled my eyes out (well, sort of). I also saw more - things that I'd gotten wrong or completely forgotten, I saw.

The Shelob's Lair sequences had me on the edge of my seat, even though I sort of knew when she was going to sting him. I'd forgotten that the scene was in two parts - frustrating that they cut away without letting us know what happened! Just like the Osgiliath scene, where I could almost feel the adrenaline draining out of Frodo's body as he sits there like a lump (Yay Elijah!), I could almost feel his heart pounding and the adrenaline rising as he struggled to get his exhausted limbs to work. I had missed how Galadriel hauled him to his feet, and how that transformed into the scene in the Lair.

It's an unusual author or actor who can transmit feelings/emotions/whatever so well that I can almost feel what the character is feeling - the sweat on the hands, the stickiness of the walls, the chill, body and soul, that he felt when he woke up in CU. If anything, I was even more impressed this time around.

I also noticed what someone pointed out when Frodo and Sam were embracing at the end - Sam's grief was lessened and he seemed more at peace, or at least understood something, when he finally stood back. Either Frodo said something, or had gained elven telepathic ability.

~grumpy (I also noticed with great satisfaction that Merry rode with Eomer to the battle at the Black Gate. Hah. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, Eomer!)(Eomer is a babe)(I came home with a cold)(can I go again tonight?)(Maybe tomorrow)

Lady Wendy

01-06-2004, 01:11 PM

zkgrumpy,
I think there were exactly two tiny clips - one of him opening a door, another with his eyeballs falling out.

:eek: :eek: :eek:

Yikes...what are we in for ???

Wendy cringes at the thought of Elijah's beautiful eyes being abused in this dreadful manner...

Just like the Osgiliath scene, where I could almost feel the adrenaline draining out of Frodo's body as he sits there like a lump

Contraversially, I adored the Osgiliath scene...I know, I know, it sets the movie up for all kinds of potential plotholes, and it never happened in the book...yeah, yeah, etc,etc,...
Well, I for one loved the whole scene, and at the end of the fight with Sam, where the slow realisation dawns that he's nearly killed his best and, right at that moment, only friend, he drops his sword, and slumps down against the wall, in total shock, and, yes, you can tangibly feel the adrenalin ebbing away, at a rate of knots ...and then he comes out with this line that absolutely slayed me completely...
"I can't DO this, Sam "...

Well, I was a heap on the floor of the cinema, I can tell you !!!

Alyon

01-06-2004, 07:05 PM

Lady Wendy re Osgiliath:

and at the end of the fight with Sam, where the slow realisation dawns that he's nearly killed his best and, right at that moment, only friend, he drops his sword, and slumps down against the wall, in total shock, and, yes, you can tangibly feel the adrenalin ebbing away, at a rate of knots ...and then he comes out with this line that absolutely slayed me completely...

Yes Yes Yes. It was just done so poetically and gracefully. I couldn't help but love it. The arc of acting through violence and then realization was stunning to see. It was music (I think of Elijah's acting as music, sometimes).

Said by Honeyelf re Grey Havens:
I think Frodo left as much for Sam as for himself. He blessed Sam with "too much to be, and do, and enjoy..." as well as "all I have, or ever would have had." And he knew, I think, that Sam could not have come to his full potential, as husband, father and mayor of the Shire, with Frodo remaining in Middle Earth, and Sam loving him too much to watch him struggle with his demons, and not try to do something.

Frodo wanted Sam to enjoy the Shire that they had fought so hard to save. It seems to me that when Frodo says that Sam -- as a ring-bearer -- may also come to Valinor one day, it is really contigent on Sam living a good, useful life. (That was not how I saw it on my first reading; then I understood it as "it may be granted by the powers that be if they they wish" but I didn't think Sam had any input. Now I think his life of service to the Shire was how he "earned this.")

Sweet thoughts, Honey. I do think you may be right about him whispering something to Sam during that embrace. I'd like to think so

by Niad:

One omission I missed terribly - the episodes of Frodo's declining health, first noticed by Gandalf on the Weathertop anniversary ("Are you in pain, Frodo?").

Oh, Yes, Niad. I agree with so many of your thoughts. On this I think it would have made Grey Havens more comprehensible to those who don't already know. I know a man who really likes Frodo (after the Fellowship he mused wistfully that he wished he had Frodo as a best friend). But the lines about a wound that never heals was not enough for him to understand why Frodo went away. Again, with reflection it makes sense. But so much is going on at that time. Lots of veterans have physical wounds that never heal--and Frodo was referring to his knife wound. Okay, so my friend is a little literal--but that's what he thought it mainly was. A big bad knife wound. .:rolleyes:
OOOhhh I know they didn't have time, but I would have liked them to rev up the pain a little, so the audience saw how it was Frodo's soul that still suffered. And the wounds were no ordinary wounds. I wanted to see that, myself. I wanted to see all of the cost of Frodo's quest. Poor Frodo (Yes, I wanted to wallow in it all a little more. I admit it. Sick Alyon. :)

Ariel:

Well, I have been blaming the audience. Nothing like going to see the movie with a bunch of people who walk out saying I liked everything but the ending or who was that goof with the moony eyes?* (actual quotes heard upon exiting the theater) And the next person who praises every acting job in the film to me EXCEPT Elijahs is going to get throttled.

Oh, well, yes, definitely. You hear those things, it is definitely time to think unflattering things about the audience. Totally there with you on that.

Did anyone see Elijah on Ellen Degeneras today??? We had snow today--not too much--but it is unusual enough so that the city shuts down and every TV station has continuous coverage of SNOW (as if we couldn't look out the window and see it ourselves). Thus Elijah was pre-empted.

Ainon:
It was the somewhat dry recorded bits of history in the Appendix that really made LOTR feel 'real' to me, I suppose, made me believe that Frodo Baggins could have lived once long ago, and made safe the world for us.

Oh....I like that!!! :D

enaiowen

01-06-2004, 09:01 PM

as usual :rolleyes: Maybe one of these days I will have time for a proper post again. But just had to say:

Wonderful posts everyone. I don't really have to post because all I could say is "Me too!" :D

And Blossom:
Lovely, heatbreaking gifs. Could I add my voice to ainon's and request that Minas Morgul gif she was asking about? Please? I'll make you some cookies. :)

enai

naiad

01-07-2004, 01:28 AM

Alyon and Ainon, loved your comments about Tolkien's histories adding to the reality of the tale, and that quote about Frodo making the world safe for us (...tears coming on).

Zkgrumpy and others - I love your onsite cinema depictions. I get a sort of vicarious rush as if I were there, having just watched the film again (which I'm dying to do).

Re: Frodo's illness - When I reread the books 2 years ago after a long hiatus, I'd fortgotten Frodo's early symptom when on the road home. When I stumbled on it right at the start of a chapter, I was overcome with weeping. My colleage at work - the only one of the many lotr-loving geeks at the office who'll talk! - also lamented the light touch on Frodo's failing health. " Didn't he faint at some point?" he asked.
Though I can't recall if Frodo fainted anywhere but in his bed, (since Faramir's cave), I agreed because it was nice to see that a guy cared enough to wonder about it.

Re: The Osgiliath scene - I have grown to love it. Around the second viewing, I began to see Frodo's attack on Sam as a direct response to the immediate presence of the wiki and his subsequent confused mental state. Watching closely, you see the wiki accosting Frodo, lunging at him. Frodo is still staggering from the onslaught, his eyes unfocussed and bemused, holding aloft the ring and in a very fragile state indeed, when he's grabbed and brought down by an unseen assailant -Sam. Instinctively, Frodo resists (as he's been trying to resist the wiki with every waking breath even when it is not present) and draws his sword. But, being Frodo, he does not run his 'enemy' through but holds him at sword point. In that moment, you can see his eyes clear and he recognizes who he's been fighting off. Of course, he drops his sword and collapses with horror at what he's nearly done.

Just back from a visit to Tgshaw's galleries. Oh my! Besides heaps of gratitude, and post-swoon blubbering, I have one comment - about the Parting Smile cap. I have yet to see one that matches the perfection of its appearance on film. Maybe the power of that expression lies in its fleetingness, for captured in a hold-frame, it is flat, almost ordinary - quite unlike the wonderful Elijah micro-expressions we've become so enamoured of. To reveal all the nuances of promise and reassurance, the Smile seems to require the full force of Elijah's breath, flesh, and movement....(uhhhm, yeah)

shadowcatshadow

01-07-2004, 03:56 AM

Today on the Ellen Degeneres show, Elijah mentioned something about biting his toenails. :eek:

Ellen told him not to say that because Fangirls are out there and heard him. :eek:

I thought it was funny, I also liked how he didn't CARE and just mentioned his legs were flexible. I got a gross cartoon pic in my head briefly, but his manners made me laugh. it made me feel good that this shows his HOLLYWOOD image is NOT him. :)

Flourish

01-07-2004, 09:01 AM

The classical radio station I listen to has started running ads for ROTK yesterday--the first one featured a couple of sound bites from PJ and Howard Shore and talked about the score a little bit. This morning I'm hearing a new one with sound bites from PJ and Sean Astin. The narration mentions quotes CNN as saying that "both Elijah Wood and Sean Astin deliver award-worthy performances" and Rolling Stone as saying that "Sean Astin is the emotional heart of the film."

Sean then says something about how what PJ wanted, and what he tried to achieve, was honesty in the film's emotional scenes.

I'm kind of hoping that there's another ad coming where Elijah will say something about the films. If I hear it I'll let you know.

peaceweaver

01-07-2004, 09:01 AM

Dropping by with a little tidbit I encountered while poking around at ToRN: This comes from a piece in the January 6 edition of Variety , entitled "Best Actor Dark Horses:"

Who: Elijah Wood

What: "The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King"

Why: While Peter Jackson (news) may deservedly get most of the accolades, it was Wood who led the charge to Mordor and was the central character of the trilogy.

If only.....

Goldenberry

01-07-2004, 11:30 AM

If only indeed, peaceweaver. Still, it's good to see someone at least acknowledging his merit in print! We'll have to console ourselves with that, I'm afraid.

Alyon, I feel your pain--pre-empting scheduled programming to inform everyone about what they can see out their window?:rolleyes: During Ellen's chat with Elwood, our local cable system chose to conduct a test of the emergency broadcast system that cut a full minute from an already-short segment!:mad: You didn't miss much. They spent most of their time talking about nail-biting. As shadowcat mentioned, he started in on the subject of toenail biting, and Ellen cut him off by saying (paraphrasing here) "oh, don't do this. There are so many cute women who like you, don't do this to them":p

They talked very briefly about his having his first apartment. Then Ellen noted their birthdays are two days apart, and she asked him if he would do something with her to celebrate. :D

tgshaw

01-07-2004, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
If only indeed, peaceweaver. Still, it's good to see someone at least acknowledging his merit in print!
Yes, and in Variety, so at least not everyone in "the industry" doesn't see how good he is.

scs and Goldie--Thanks for the notes on Ellen's show. It's shown during the day here, so I'm at work while it's on.

scs--I just "got" the connection between biting your toenails and having flexible legs... :rolleyes: ewww....

BunnieBugs

01-07-2004, 12:16 PM

For interested parties: frodoandsam.net (http://www.frodoandsam.net) has the clips of Elijah on Ellen posted. She works fast! Big hugs to her, as I didn't get to see it due to winter storm coverage. :k

http://img3.photobucket.com/albums/v32/bunniebugs/2.jpg

Dangermouse

01-07-2004, 12:28 PM

Waives "hi" to ainon! I'm finally delurking...

I loved EW in all of LOTR, but it's ROTK and conclusion of his arc that made me appreciate how brilliant he really is. Warning: ramble follows.

Elijah doesn't get to do the "cool" stuff, as fighting: he just walks, and then he crawls. But I am mesmerized when he is on screen. I never think "bathroom break." It amazes me how he can inject such change, such fluidity, such depth into despair and tiredness and grit-your-teeth determination. I never think I am watching Elijah as Frodo. I am just watching Frodo of the Shire. I do not think "brilliant performance on MD." I think: "Frodo is hurting."

He really does inject amazing variety into his role: if you think about it, he is frightened/tired for a large part of the movies. But its different every time. He is frightened at Weathertop. He is frightened at first in Shelobs cave. But how utterly different are the frights: In FOTR, he is still innocent, unknowing: it is a fright of a child encountering dark and realizing that there are monsters in it, but who is without knowledge. The fright is Shelobs cave is different: it is total, perhaps even more so then in WT, because
there are not friends (even unconscious ones) nearby, and because he *has* seen what goes bump in the night at this point, and he knows what true horror is now, and because he is weakened by the Ring. But yet, his fright in SC is also more grown up, precisely because of all of the above: he collects himself after a moment: hes dealt with horrors before: he will be
afraid and yet will deal. And somehow, Elijah manages to convey all of this vast difference, character attitude and change using the same face and body, and in utilization of the identical emotion, but the result is vastly different and conveys so much. It boggles my mind.

Just as his determination is different in the above scenes: in Weathertop, when he pulls the ring away, he doesnt know what would happen. It is both a greater courage then in SC (because he is yet untutored in hardship) and lesser (he doesnt know that bad stuff that can happen). But it is so different from his defiance in SC: when he knows how bad things can get, and fights determinedly, much more like a much matured hobbit he is now.

He portrays someone who is slowly losing himself, his basic Frodoishness, but we never get Elijah being less Frodo though ROTK, we get Frodo being less Frodo. And I will never inderstand how he does that.

When I watch him, I forget it's a movie. I forget Frodo is a character. I forget everything but his pain or joy. And for that, Elijah deserves every award on the planet.

Hobmom

01-07-2004, 02:10 PM

I have lots of caps from the Ellen Show
HERE (http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Ellen%20Show/?sort=descending)

Here are a couple.

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Ellen%20Show/218.jpg

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Ellen%20Show/21.jpg

Edit- I just found this preposterous quote from an article about the Oscar race at TORN-

That's not to say women don't like ``Return of the King'' when they see it, but women are already voting with their feet. According to the studio's own research, they make up a statistically irrelevant percentage of the film's audience. This absence of a strong female constituency for ``Return of the King'' will cause the most lauded of the ``Rings'' to fall into the fires of Mount Doom.

Article Here (http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/entertainment/movies/7642134.htm)

:confused: :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

Umnnn..... Then who are all those female-seeming people who keep going back to see it over and over and over again???? I rarely see men on repeated viewings, just other ladies like us.

zkgrumpy

01-07-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
Today on the Ellen Degeneres show, Elijah mentioned something about biting his toenails. :eek:

Ellen told him not to say that because Fangirls are out there and heard him. :eek:

I thought it was funny, I also liked how he didn't CARE and just mentioned his legs were flexible. I got a gross cartoon pic in my head briefly, but his manners made me laugh. it made me feel good that this shows his HOLLYWOOD image is NOT him. :)

I wonder if this is a not-too-subtle attempt to divert some of the screaming hordes of little girls away from him by saying something really gross, sort of like the weird hair at times and those - those - *shirts* that he wears sometimes. :::: making sign of cross with fingers to ward off evil shirts :::: Or maybe it's just the adolescent potty humor that he and the other ex-Hobbits seem to do when they're together.

I sympathize with the nail-biting, though I haven't been able to reach my toes with my mouth since I was about 3 (now, I'm lucky to be able to *see* my toes!). I bit my fingernails down to the nubs until my late teens or early 20's, when I was able to switch over to biting the skin around them. That's more painful, so it reminded me enough that I was able to stop.

Of course, then, I gained about 100 lbs...then lost 100, then gained 140, then lost 45, then gained 60...

Remember the parable of the swept and garnished house, when the demon was cast out, the house was empty, and the demon went and got his pals and came back, making things seven times worse than they were? Personally, I'll be a lot happier if the kid bites his fingertips off than if he grows beautiful nails and replaces it with some other ghastly compulsion. He's admitted to a smoking "problem" (commentary on one of the DVD's) and you don't bite nails like that for no reason.

He's mentioned River Phoenix (some interview) - I hope he gets the point. He's too d**ned good and needs to make lots and lots of movies.

Selfish little bugger, aren't I? :p

BTW, thanks for the DeGeneres pics. He looks like a hobbit in those, doesn't he? Hair is nice. Shirt and tie are nice. What did the one interviewer say? "...a sprite of a man with eager eyes..." Oh yes.

~grumpyandsneezy
(btw, stopped dieting in '98 and have been losing weight ever since)(Hah. So there.)(Take that, Jenny Craig!) :p

tgshaw

01-07-2004, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Hobmom
Edit- I just found this preposterous quote from an article about the Oscar race at TORN-

Uh, yeah... the writer also says Sean Penn is "the best actor of his generation." :rolleyes:

On grumpy's remarks about nailbiting, smoking, dieting and other nasty habits ;) ... I've realized I need to have an online obsession going at all times (it's like knitting, y'know--my hands just have to be doing something :p ). A few months ago I discovered a website I really like to shop at... Movie tickets are cheaper than clothes, so I'm glad to have another movie to obsess over :) .

shilohmm

01-07-2004, 07:35 PM

Sean Penn a great actor? Whoo, boy.

originally posted by tgshaw
I've realized I need to have an online obsession going at all times (it's like knitting, y'know--my hands just have to be doing something ).

Yep - gonna get tendonitis in my scrolling finger if I don't get this addiction a bit more in control, though. :D

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
(btw, stopped dieting in '98 and have been losing weight ever since)(Hah. So there.)(Take that, Jenny Craig!) :p

My sister, who had been dieting and gaining weight since she was six, swore off diets at about the same time, and started following the advice of Jean Antonello (eat good food when you're hungry until you're full, everytime) a few years later - she lost fifty pounds in the past year alone, and is now two dress sizes smaller than when she graduated from high school. Which is to say, after all these years she finally got down to her ideal weight - by abandoning dieting!

Sorry for the totally OT post, guys. :o Had the stomach flu Saturday and still feeling nausiated and uninspired in terms of posting.

Enjoying the conversation tremendously. Thanks, all. :)

Sheryl

ElanorSam

01-07-2004, 11:32 PM

Originally posted by Dangermouse
Waives "hi" to ainon! I'm finally delurking...

I loved EW in all of LOTR, but it's ROTK and conclusion of his arc that made me appreciate how brilliant he really is. Warning: ramble follows.

When I watch him, I forget it's a movie. I forget Frodo is a character. I forget everything but his pain or joy. And for that, Elijah deserves every award on the planet.

Welcome Dangermouse! I loved your post. I had the same experience with fully appreciating Elijah in ROTK. I thought he was very, very good in FOTR and TTT, but in ROTK I just thought he was brilliant. He blew me away. How can such a young actor portray such complex emotions? Amazing. Then when I watched my EE DVD of FOTR and TTT after seeing ROTK, I really appreciated the character arc Elijah took Frodo through the course of the three movies. Really brilliant work.

(And I always enjoy your posts over at COE, too)

honeyelf

01-07-2004, 11:38 PM

That's not to say women don't like ``Return of the King'' when they see it, but women are already voting with their feet. According to the studio's own research, they make up a statistically irrelevant percentage of the film's audience. This absence of a strong female constituency for ``Return of the King'' will cause the most lauded of the ``Rings'' to fall into the fires of Mount Doom.

:o :o :o :o :o

That's my home town newspaper! Obviously I haven't been going to this movie enough. I'm gonna have to write that person a letter!

OK. Here's my first pass at a letter, input welcome:

Dear Mr. Newman,

I read with interest your article on this years Oscar hopefuls, particularly because it featured the final chapter of my favorite movie triology, Lord of the Rings: Return of the King. I was surprised to read that According to the studio's own research, [women] make up a statistically irrelevant percentage of the film's audience. This is news to me! Im a woman who has seen this movie 4 times already, and eagerly anticipate my next viewing. I saw the last installment, The Two Towers, 18 times! I have several friends who have also seen the film multiple times, all of them women, and all of about my age range well just call it middle aged.

Whats the attraction? Is it the endless battle sequences and sci-fi special effects? No, it is the relationships between the characters. Too many movie males cant be heroes without a gun in their hands. Worse yet are the movies with men who are overgrown children, and utterly hopeless without a woman to tell them what to do. The males in The Lord of the Rings -- be they hobbits, dwarves, elves or men -- are strong because of their friendships, because they are willing to take on an impossible job with nothing but their bare hands (and feet,) because they can cry. They are more like the real men I know in my life; able to admit vulnerability, and able to care for those around them.

No female constituency for these movies? Id invite you to take a quick look at the internet. Look at Khazaddum.com or TolkienOnline.com, where the bulk of posters are female, and rethink your statistics.

Sincerely,
Pamela F.

BunnieBugs

01-08-2004, 12:34 AM

I've just learned that Elijah and Peter Jackson are scheduled to be on Charlie Rose here in the states, but there is some debate as to the air date. I was told tomorrow night at midnight (technically Friday AM) but my schedule says Saturday (technically Sunday AM).

I didn't think the show varied by location, but I could be wrong. So, check you local listings, and get your VCRs ready! :)

ainon

01-08-2004, 01:08 AM

Dangermouse! It's wonderful to see you delurked here! And with such a perfect post. :k

Originally posted by Dangermouse
I never think I am watching Elijah as Frodo. I am just watching Frodo of the Shire. I do not think "brilliant performance on MD." I think: "Frodo is hurting."

Absolutely. There's never that 'Oscar moment'. What we see transcends that kind of trivialism actor doing the best job of his life stuff. What we see is *real*, darn it!

Peaceweaver, thanks for sharing the Variety snippet. In yesterday's TORn update there was also an interview withViggo Mortensen (http://www.backstage.com/backstage/features/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=2061454) and I thought he had interesting things to say. Like this bit here:

So reacting and being open to what was going around me was essential to getting across the internal journey that the character was on. And that adage that if you are thinking something, if you are working in that way, the audience will feel and see and know it--I think that's true. You just have to have faith in doing things the right way. Some people don't trust that and they overdo it, either physically or verbally. That is dangerous. And sometimes people do it just to draw attention to themselves and away from others.

-------------------------------

http://www.theasc.com/magazine/jan04/sub/images/image6.jpg

That's from American Cinematographer (http://www.theasc.com/magazine/). :) Geek and Andrew Lesnie swooner that I am, I read that article. There're like, whoa, a lot of lights involved in making LOTR. :D The pertinent Frodo part:

Frodo's increasingly wretched appearance underscores his mental and physical struggle with the ring's malevolent power. "As Frodo gets filthier and filthier, his skin starts to look like that of a coal miner," says Lesnie. "I found that Elijah's eyes, which are very bright anyway, really started to glow. By the time he's standing over the Crack of Doom, claiming the ring as his own, he's glaring at Sam through the tops of his eyes, and with all the light coming up from below, he looks like he's bordering on insanity."

Well, speaking of bitten nails, I came across this.

Elijah Resolves To Kick Hobbit Habit

Lord of the Rings star Elijah Wood has resolved to stop biting his nails in 2004 - because he hated seeing his chewed up fingers in the trilogy's final film The Return of the King.

The actor, who plays hero hobbit Frodo Baggins in the films, rarely makes New Year's resolutions - but he's determined to stop biting his nails this year.

He says, "I bit my nails while I was in New Zealand working on the movies and I've been biting them ever since and it's in the film. If you watch the movie and there are these tight shots of Frodo with The Ring you can see that he has no nails.

"They kind of let it go because they thought, 'Well, he's burdened by The Ring and maybe he'd bite his fingers.' Maybe it's a hobbit thing, and it's a hard hobbit to break.

"I got applause from Sir Ian McKellen for being a real man and showing my imperfections."

http://www.teenhollywood.com/d.asp?r=56894&cat=1027

In the Design Team TTT commentary Dan Hennah talked about Elijah's bitten fingernails, how nobody ever considered hand make-up or whatever to cover up the fact that Elijah's hands aren't perfect. :)

-----------------

Thanks, Hobmom and Elvellon and Bunnie for the sights of Elijah with much improved hair. :D PJ & EW on Charlie Rose - that's great news!

Honey, you go tell that Mr. Newman! :p But ... if he's really referring to the voting group (in which case one wonders how he got his statistics for that group) then I guess we'll just resign ourselves to the fact that the women who make up the bulk of the Oscar voting group aren't the kind of women we wanna hang out with. :rolleyes:

*waves to Enai* :k

Maeglian

01-08-2004, 01:16 AM

Hi, Dangermouse!

Honey, it's great that you go to the trouble of writing a letter like that! :)
However, I'd kindly ask you to not specifically mention KD in your letter. I'd rather not have journalists coming over here to have a look, and trying to make sense of what's going on; - and perhaps writing about it, perhaps even sarcastically..... People who don't *get* us, could have loads of fun on our expense on the basis of many a post here, I'm afraid.

Hobmom

01-08-2004, 01:46 AM

Elijah is on the Charlie Rose Show Friday night! An hour-long show! Yes!!!!!

Honeyelf- Give it to Mr. Newman!!! I love your letter! That poor man is seriously out of touch with reality and needs to know that the majority of LOTR fans are women. I still haven't any idea where they get that demographic claiming guys are the main fan-base. Not anywhere I've ever been! Every real LOTR fan I have ever known in the past thirty years up till now has been a woman. Of course there are some guys on the LOTR boards like our own Moggy here and the few guys at TORN but the ladies are the ones buying all the tickets and Fro-dolls etc. etc. Wake this man up!

shadowcatshadow

01-08-2004, 03:23 AM

What is wrong with this guy? Is he biased?

He sounds like akin to the guy that stares at the girl in the Sci Fi book section of the Bookstore, because he's NEVER seen a GIRL that knew SO MUCH about Science.

Again, :mad: What is WRONG with this Guy? :eek:

peaceweaver

01-08-2004, 09:51 AM

I loved Elwood on the Daily Show. :) He talked about Music! And let Jon Stewart make the self-deprecating remarks. No bodily functions discussed!

Next up is not only EW talking with Charlie Rose, but Sean Astin with him!
At least according to Rose's web site. http://www.charlierose.com/index.shtm
Don't worry, Goldie, I'll tape it!

(Hmmm, I wonder if that means the rumor that PJ will not be at the Lincoln Center thing this weekend is true? But maybe it means that Sean will be there!)

Flourish

01-08-2004, 10:09 AM

Argh, Peaceweaver! What rumor, please? :confused:

honeyelf

01-08-2004, 10:41 AM

Maeglian, that makes sense to me. I'll expunge the mentions of specific boards.

You all see our lovely 'Lijah on the Daily Show last night? That was a boring interview. John Stewart not only interrupted Elijah repeatedly, but he also interrupted himself!:eek: Good grief, man! What's that thing called where you can't stop talking? Glossilalia is it? :rolleyes:

Honey!

Second pass at the letter. This is probably it:

Dear Mr. Newman,

I read with interest your article on this years Oscar hopefuls, particularly because it featured the final chapter of my favorite movie triology, Lord of the Rings: Return of the King. I was surprised to read that According to the studio's own research, [women] make up a statistically irrelevant percentage of the film's audience. This is news to me! I have seen this movie four times already, and eagerly anticipate my next viewing. I saw the last installment, The Two Towers, multiple times as well, as have several of my friends. Step into any afternoon showing of the film; youll find mostly women there, if my experience is any indicator.

Whats the attraction? Is it the endless battle sequences and sci-fi special effects? No, it is the relationships between the characters. Too many movie males cant be heroes without a gun in their hands. Worse yet are the movies with men who are overgrown children, and utterly hopeless without a woman to tell them what to do. The males in The Lord of the Rings -- be they hobbits, dwarves, elves or men -- are strong because of their friendships, because they are willing to take on an impossible job with nothing but their bare hands (and feet,) because they can cry. They are more like the real men I know in my life; able to admit vulnerability, and able to care for those around them.

Further, this movie series was much more than a special effects extravganza. There was incredible acting. Elijah Wood and Sean Astin, Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee respcetively, made their characters come alive on the screen. Young Mr. Woods acting is exquisite. Never do you see this actors ego prance across the screen; he became his character, with all the vulnerability and pain that entails. If the academy can overlook acting like that then I say Off with their heads! Long live the Academy!

Sincerely,
Pamela F.

peaceweaver

01-08-2004, 11:53 AM

Golly, Flourish, I don't want to be the cause of trouble. I saw on someone's LJ a report that PJ would be there by "live feed" rather than in person. Given that origin, perhaps it is better to assume this report is spurious. I sure hope he shows!!

zkgrumpy

01-08-2004, 12:06 PM

Originally posted by Hobmom
[B]
Edit- I just found this preposterous quote from an article about the Oscar race at TORN-

:confused: :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:

What she said!!! So that's Today's Outrage #1. :::: watches as Elizabeth Cady Stanton, Emmaline Pankhurst, Lucretia Mott, and Susan B. Anthony spin slowly in their graves ::::

I don't care if it was qualified as "statistically". I still get steamed when I see "women" and "irrelevant" in the same sentence.

I'd love to see this research. How did they do it? Stand at theaters and count? Keep track through ticket sales? What was their sample size and how was it chosen? Margin of error? Did it have any other statistical basis other than gazing into the panantier? (sp)

Today's Outrage #2: In the depths of the night, while I was scaring the cats into psychotic breaks coughing, I switched on the TV. It was "The Messenger", I think - Joan of Arc. They showed a commercial for RotK - lots of clips of battlefields - one of the Ring dangling over the pit (Frodo), one of Frodo kissing Sam at GH :::: waterworks start ::::, a number of others. The commercial mentioned its four Golden Globe nominations - best picture, best director, best score, I forget what else. No actors. None. I guess it didn't hit me till now. How the frell do they think it got to be worthy of a best picture nomination? I know that various actors (The Lad included, I think) have said that PJ would act out all of the roles, but jeepers. he didn't do it himself! It's frustrating that *all* of the actors in major roles were so good that none stood out, which is *precisely* how it should be for pete's sake! I fear that Our Lad is doomed to go unrecognized for a phenomenal accomplishment for any actor, not to mention one in his first really adult role over three movies, with transition from child actor to adult actor done so seamlessly.

If he and some others are not nominated for Oscars, this member of the statistically irrelevant plans to boycott all Academy Award shows in the future, and I will make it a point as long as I have a computer to send a message to the Academy and the sponsoring network explaining exactly *why* I am boycotting. Harrumph. :::: stomping around in a fine fit of ~grumpiness ::::

~grumpyandstatisticallyirrelevant

Maeglian

01-08-2004, 01:04 PM

I'd love to see this research. How did they do it? Stand at theaters and count? Keep track through ticket sales? What was their sample size and how was it chosen? Margin of error? Did it have any other statistical basis other than gazing into the palantier? That's what I'm wondering, too. Over the last 2 years there's been articles at intervals, always saying the same; - that women do not like and are not watching the LotR movies. Every time I'd really like to know what they base it on. Did someone *ever* do a proper statistical investigatiojn and sampling, or is this nothing more than someones opinion, based on the old "truth" that only adolescent boys/men can possibly be interested in "Fantasy"?

I did read an article in one of the UK newspapers some weeks back, concluding that "Jackson makes geeks of us all". It didn't specifically discuss women as a Group, nor limit itself to LotR. Rather, it argued that currently everyone; - men and women, old and young, the in-crowd and the geeks, are openly showing interest in LotR and other various fantasy and Sci-fi "franchises". I don't think they had any statistics to show, though, other than the booming business that this kind of merchandise, films and shops are experiencing, plus they interviewed various very diversified people who were out shopping in (I think it was) the Forbidden Planet.

Based on nothing more that what I myself *think* :rolleyes:, I think that UK article hit closer to the truth. But I *would* like to see some serious statistics, though.

honeyelf

01-08-2004, 01:09 PM

I e-mailed Mr. Newman at the Mercury News. Here is what he had to say. The last paragraph is particularly interesting.

Dear Ms. Farmer,
>
>Thank you for your letter. I would like to pass it on to the editor of our
>Feedback column, but we would need your permission and the city in which you
>reside.
>
>Because of the volume of mail this story has generated, particularly from
>women who have seen LOTR 4-5 times, I'm unable to respond in detail. But
>your letter was one of the more thoughtful ones, which is why I'd like to
>print it.
>
>Best,
>Bruce Newman

whiteling

01-08-2004, 01:11 PM

I found a cute pic in the January issue of the German "Cinema" mag. It shows our boy in his favourite status - the charmer ;) .

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Frodo_HahnimKorb.jpg
The underline reads:
Cock of the walk: Elijah Wood as the female Production Assistants' darling.

We've seen similar pictures, haven't we ;) ?

Alas, Rotk makes for a twelve-sided title story in this mag, but there is no one single word about Elijah or Frodo :mad: :confused: ! Despite this odd coverage Rotk was seen by over 7,762,216 moviegoers here. - In my three viewings to date I've seen slightly more women than man in the theatre. (But that's only the irrelevant observation of a member of a fringe group called women :rolleyes: ...)

Honeyelf, thank you for writing the letter and thanks for the alterations (are you sure you want to cut off their heads ;) ?)! :)

honeyelf

01-08-2004, 01:18 PM

Whiteling:
Honeyelf, thank you for writing the letter and thanks for the alterations (are you sure you want to cut off their heads ?)!

This is the final paragraph of my letter as Mr. Newman saw it:
Further, this movie series was much more than a special effects extravaganza. There was incredible acting. Elijah Wood and Sean Astin, (Frodo Baggins and Samwise Gamgee respectively,) made their characters come alive on the screen. Young Mr. Woods acting is exquisite. Never do you see this actors ego prance across the screen; he became his character, with all the vulnerability and pain that entails. If the academy can overlook acting like that then I doubt their validity as arbiters of cinematic excellence.

Thank you for that adorable picture of our boy! It actually took me a minute to recognize him. He is being Elijah, but in Frodo-drag, and there is a remarkable difference between Elijah and Frodo isn't there?

Honey!

Maeglian

01-08-2004, 01:26 PM

Honey, a very good letter! :) And I'm a bit surprised that you got a reply, but all the more glad that they wanted to recognize the point you're making and wanted to print the letter.

Whiteling, a *big* thank you for that picture. :) Elijah with Mordor clothes and makeup and with weary and exhausted Frodo eyes! That's a first, it's as if he's been caught in the transition, in the middle of being a little bit Frodo, a little bit himself, for once....!

I kind of envy that production assistant. :o
Perhaps I shouldn't admit that. :o

Dangermouse

01-08-2004, 01:34 PM

Thanks for the welcome everyone!

honeyelf: I loved your final paragraph.

I honestly don't know what this research is beased on. Every time I saw ROTK (and TTT & FOTR) in theaters, the male/female divide was at least 50/50. Granted, it might have been a fluke once or twice, but I've seen LOTR a combined total of 16 times in the movie theater: it is statistically improbable for every single one to be a fluke.

And just look at all those teenybopper mags with Elijah and Orlando on the cover. Or just go to ff.net where every other story is about a member of LOTR discovering true love with a cute, modern-earth Mary Sue. I doubt it's the men who write these.

LOTR is actually more emotional, more moving, more real than a lot of so-called "women's movies." When was the last time a movie gloried in manly men who cry, hug and are unashamed to show their love for their friends?

/end vent

It does really bother me that Elijah is so overlooked this award season. The whole of the trilogy is structured around him and wouldn't work without him. I watch him, and he is Frodo, and my heart breaks every time. It is Frodo's horror, and Frodo's weariness, that convey the immensity of the Ring's evil and Sauron's power. It is his face I remember when I walk out of the movie theater (and it has nothing to do with hormones, either. Much as I love EW's acting, I don't swoon for him. It's really the trio of Aragorn, Legolas and Faramir that give my hormones a work-out). And when you think how young he was when he accomplished this amazing feat....grrrrrrrrr! Stupid Awards. :rolleyes:

My new favorite thing about Elijah's performance in ROTK? The physicality of his acting in ROTK. It seems like a trivial thing to say, but I love the way he acts with his body. You can school your voice, and your expressions, but to act with your whole being is amazing. Let me explain: watch the way he falls in front of the Eye-searchlight. He doesn't fall gracefully: he folds and falls totally with no holding back: it's the fall of someone who is utterly without reserves of energy, who is completely overcome by the horror around him. Who literally has no strength left. Or the way he runs on MD: it's someone who is running on pure adrenalin and ragged nerve, not someone who is using the last of his strength because there is no strength. Or the way he crawls and then is visibly overcome by gravity. I have no idea how he does it. I am thinking of compiling a list of all these moments from LOTR...I need a life ;)

Saw him on the Daily Show: he looked adorable. I am always taken aback by how normal and "non-Frodo" he is :)

Maeglian

01-08-2004, 01:41 PM

Hey! I just realized we may have the possibility of hearing the opinion of PJ and Elijah Wood themselves concerning which demographic group(s) constitute the lotR fan base, and their impression of what kind of people are showing the most interest in and emotional response to and (not least) appreciation of LotR (the film, story and acting both), and whether they believe the films appeal equally to men and women; - and what they base their opinion on....

Flourish, is that a question you would consider asking them if you get the chance at the Lincoln Center? :) In a less convoluted form, of course! :o

And of course, it would be interesting to hear our attendees' view concerning the demographics of the people who've managed to get tickets to the Lincoln Center event. Just from this message Board, I know at least 5 *women* are attending!

Hobmom

01-08-2004, 02:46 PM

HoneElf! Way to go!!! That was a quick response from Mr. Newman. Seems the man was swamped with female reaction to his column.

It's great that he picked your letter to use in the paper. This speaks well of the renowned erudition of our Faculty members.

Flourish

01-08-2004, 05:15 PM

WTG, Honeyelf! Congrats on writing such a noteworthy letter that speaks for so many of us.

Peaceweaver, not to worry. I haven't heard anything to suggest that PJ's not coming, and since he is supposed to do a couple of hours' worth of Q&A on Sunday as well (which unfortunately I can't attend--I'm only going on Saturday), I can't imagine that doesn't mean, "in person." Fingers crossed!

Maeglian, that's a great question! I've written it down and tucked it away with my extra roll of film (which I just ran out and bought--for once I didn't have any! :eek: ). Thank you!

I would imagine that, if in my wildest dreams I got to ask a question, PJ would say something very tactful about how they intended the films to appeal to everyone on many levels, LOTR fans and general audience, men and women, old and young, blah, blah---but then my follow-up question would be, Does the actual fan base for the films as far as you know match those expectations you had? Or words to that effect....:o

I have to admit, I am very curious about what the audience will be like on Saturday. I'm hoping they are more like LOTR geeks than pure film geeks (though tickets were made available through the Film Society of Lincoln Center, which I believe is for film geeks primarily)--my daughter is hoping for a really enthusiastic crowd with lots of clapping and cheering and laughing and so forth.

And I'm indebted to the generous souls in the Harem for information suggesting that at least 12 of them are going, and none of them are male. ;)

Ariel

01-08-2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by whiteling
I found a cute pic in the January issue of the German "Cinema" mag. It shows our boy in his favourite status - the charmer ;) .
Oh, Whiteling! I ADORE that picture! That has got to be the sweetest, cutest most DARLING pic I have ever seen! Now, I know our boy is reported to be a sweetheart, easy going, talented and dedicated, but that picture also suggests he's pretty nice too. You can see in both their faces how comfortable they are - no big time Hollywood star there! LOL! Oh, I love that shot! Thank you so much for sharing it with us!

And thank you, Honeyelf, for sending that letter! Good for you! I am VERY glad he got a lot of feedback and I hope they DO do a real study of LOTR audiences. I think those who make these assumptions would be in for a big surprise.

Re: the actual fanbase of LOTR. I was actually going to have something along those lines for one of my questions. I have no idea how we will get to pose these questions or if, but I am planning on refining them on the bus tomorrow.

And yes, whether it is because my most LOTR focused fan connections are the internet or because I am female myself (though most of my non-LOTR friends are male), MOST of the folks I know who are into LOTR ARE female. Anecdotal evidence but when taken into account with all the rest of your observations...

Ariel

zkgrumpy

01-08-2004, 07:16 PM

Return of the King: Putting your money where the math is

Dear Mr. Newman,

I read your column concerning "them thar statistically irrelevant wimmenfolks" and their supposed aversion to Lord of the Rings: Return of the King. In your column, you mentioned research that the studio had done. Would you please provide some information about that research?

1. How did you become aware of it? Who was your point of contact? Was the study published? If so, in what publication was it published?
2. Who exactly did the study?
3. How was it conducted? What methodology did it use? Did they do a survey, a study with a randomly selected control group, exit polls, fingerprints or DNA from movie ticket stubs - what?
4. What was the sample size, and how was it obtained?
5. What statistics were produced?
6. What was the margin of error?
7. When will the entertainment industry and media figure out that women watch sword/fantasy/cult movies and TV shows as intensely as the menfolks, and possibly appreciate and discuss it in greater depth?

Thank you for your attention to this crucially important matter.

tgshaw

01-08-2004, 07:40 PM

Originally posted by Ariel
And yes, whether it is because my most LOTR focused fan connections are the internet...
Ah, yes, the internet... Let's see, that has something to do with computers, doesn't it? But, My Heavens to Betsy!!! You don't mean you girls actually know how to use those things?! :eek: :eek: :rolleyes:

------------

grumpy, as my boss would say, "Those are extremely cogent questions regarding the above-subject research :p ." Does anyone else feel the urge for a grant proposal here ;) ?

shilohmm

01-08-2004, 08:11 PM

honeyelf,
Great letter!

ElanorSam,
Greetings! Hadn't realized you were new to this thread; I've read and enjoyed your posts elsewhere. :)

Dangermouse,
Crumbs, DM! Crikey! Imagine seeing you here! :D

tgshaw,
I've been long thinking we need a grand proposal on this topic. I could *swear* I'd seen mention of a study that FOTR had mostly male viewers in the theatre, but that TTT was more evently divided because women saw the videos and realized what great a great flick LOTR was, but I haven't a clue where I saw it.

Followed a link from Ele's LJ and wandered a bit, found an Elijah Wood Mah Jong game for your entertainment:

http://www.splinter.bravepages.com/mahjongg/woodmahjongg/wood.html

Sheryl

Hobmom

01-08-2004, 08:59 PM

Zkgrumpy- You DID send that letter to poor Mr. Newman didn't you? I certainly hope so!

I can just imagine his desk being flooded with letters and his email inbox overflowing with all the female feedback on his big mistake of an article!

Heh, heh, heh!

And he probably just thought he was writing a regular, rather forgettable Oscar prediction article. Little did he know it would get picked up online and shown to millions of female LOTR fans who would then be more than glad to edify him with accurate information regarding his assumptions.

Oh poor, poor Mr.Newman. LOL. Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards or lady LOTR fans.

ElanorSam

01-08-2004, 11:58 PM

Honeyelf - congratulations! You wrote a great letter, and I'm shocked you got a response back. PLEASE let us know what they actually print in the paper.

zkgrumpy - loved your letter, too! I thought along those lines when I read that article, too. What kind of study? How was it conducted? What questions were asked? I've seen FOTR in the theaters 10 times, TTT 6 times and ROTK 7 (so far - 8th to come this weekend) and the audience has been pretty evenly divided between women and men. So WHERE are they getting these numbers? I'm so glad you wrote and challenged him on this.

shilohmm - thanks for the nice welcome. I'm enjoying being here.

Dangermouse- I loved your post about the physicality of Elijah's acting in ROTK. It was so beautifully written and so perceptive. I am envious of the way so many on these boards can analyze the movies. Not me - I'm an accountant, and I'm afraid live up to the stereotype - I'm far more comfortable with numbers than words. But I just love reading all these perceptive and analytical posts. They add so much to my enjoyment of the films. Thank you, everyone, for taking the time to post your thoughts.

ElanorSam

01-09-2004, 12:00 AM

Originally posted by Hobmom
And he probably just thought he was writing a regular, rather forgettable Oscar prediction article. Little did he know it would get picked up online and shown to millions of female LOTR fans who would then be more than glad to edify him with accurate information regarding his assumptions.

LOL, LOL. I'll bet he has never written a column that got so much feedback!

hobbityme

01-09-2004, 12:49 AM

Hello everybody!

I'm so glad to see so many people having enjoyed and LOVED Elijah's performance so here's a link to a poll. It's on the right hand side!

Right now, Elijah's not even getting up there with Sean Astin even if he totally deserves Best Actor!!!

http://www.theonering.net

Let's all vote and get him up there!!!

shadowcatshadow

01-09-2004, 01:55 AM

Notice how when he plays the Charmer, Elijah doesn't look as if he is wearing a False Face. The Charm just BLENDS into his NATURAL Personality.

He IS Who he SEEMS to be, it's called in Psychology. Right? :D

BLOSSOM

01-09-2004, 09:04 AM

Oh Whiteling. That picture is adorable. Lucky lady! Thank you!

Hobmom - thanks also to you for those lovely Elijah on Ellen pics.

Honey - great letter.

Welcome Hobbityme - I think I forgot you in my last post - sorry. Btw, I voted for Elijah at TORn.

Dangermouse - beautiful first post. You've definitely come to the right place.

Ainon and Enai - the Minas Morgul gif. Sorry it's taken a while - I haven't been online for a few days, and only just saw your posts. I had already done some MM gifs, and so I've strung a few short ones together to make a longer one, ending with the 'I can feel his blade,' shot:

Minas Morgul (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/MinasMorgulex.gif)

Enjoy, and thanks for the cookies, enai.:)

Looking forward to hearing about Elijah's appearance on Charlie Rose. For us deprived UK'ers, will some kind person across the Pond fill us in with the details, please? Hopefully it will appear on Elve's site.

Must run.
Bye.

zkgrumpy

01-09-2004, 09:55 AM

Just found this on TORN. Though I'm not going to dignify the site by giving them a single hit, I hope to [insert name of benificent and hopefully wrathfull deity here] that The Lad's publicist is doing his job and has issued a "cease and desist". The copyright holders for the movie could also issue one if they're using pics. TORN seems to be pretty much on the ball at least they blew the whistle on these people.

Why? Why would someone do this?!?

Last week TORN was contacted by the folks who run [expletive deleted].com, they claimed to be running 'The Official Elijah Wood Website'. The tone of their letter left me doubting its authenticity. After a little investigation TheOneRing.net can now confirm that this site is NOT AFFILIATED with Elijah Wood in any way. His publicist remarks 'It is not legit. Elijah has no official site and has not given anyone permission to claim they are.'

~grumpy (has anyone yet admitted that the USA's "Do Not Call" list doesn't work?)(They used to call me)(Now they're harrassing me)

"You ended that sentence with a preposition! B*ST*RD!" -- Col. Jack O'Neill

Flourish

01-09-2004, 11:04 AM

Grumpy, if you mean, why do people make websites like that, I guess they're fans of a sort. If you mean, why do they pretend it's official, they obviously want the hits and the attention, and they wanted to see whether they could get TORn to help them promote it. I have a lot of respect for the folks over there at TORn--they've done a consistently great job and they're obviously not fools.

(Maybe Dom and Billy did it!)

I will probably tape the Charlie Rose show because it's on late and I was planning (ha!) to get some sleep tonight to get ready for the trilogy thing tomorrow. (I'm leaving at around 8 AM tomorrow to drive into the city and don't expect to be home before 1 AM on Sunday. :eek: ) If all goes well (and nobody beats me to it here or at TORn), I'll try to post something as soon as I can watch the tape. (Anyway, Blossom, I owe you one! ;) ).

How about this for a question for PJ tomorrow: "Looking back over all the dramatic changes, cuts, and shifts you had to make to the books in order to bring the story to the screen, is there anything you would do differently now that you've reached the end?"

He'd be crazy to answer that, though.

EDIT: Just got this from the Film Society of Lincoln Center--what happened to Viggo and Sean Bean?! :mad:

FURTHER UPDATES:

Cast members Sean Astin (Sam), Bernard Hill (Theoden), Andy Serkis (Gollum),
Liv Tyler (Arwen) and Elijah Wood (Frodo) will be present at various events
during the weekend.

Please Note: Peter Jackson is unable to attend in person, but will
participate as scheduled on Saturday night and on Sunday via live satellite
feed from New Zealand

Well, a few new tickets are apparently available if anybody's interested. Centercharge has them, or you can go to the box office today, or you can get on a standby line there tomorrow. I'm a little disappointed by these last-minute changes, I have to admit. My kids really wanted to see Viggo......:(

Lady Wendy

01-09-2004, 02:27 PM

Honey,
I'm so glad you submitted your excellent letter to that newspaper...and also so glad to see that you got a reply from Mr. Newman, who is probably now regretting that he ever set pen to paper with regards to LOTR's supposedly non-existent women fans :D !!! Egg on his face or what ???
I agree that the final draft was better without the "Off with their heads" quote, although it was quite amusing and very Red Queenish !!!
Please tell us if yours was the only letter printed on the subject, or whether they were brave enough to print a whole load of Mrs Angry letters from all these irate females...

tgshaw,
Ah, yes, the internet... Let's see, that has something to do with computers, doesn't it? But, My Heavens to Betsy!!! You don't mean you girls actually know how to use those things?!

ROFLMAO :D :D :D ....

zkgrumpy,
Your letter echoed exactly what most of us were all thinking when we read this article, and indeed most of these articles that purport to get their information from some kind of official statistical research or other...a bit of a mystery that, eh ?
( Well they didn't ask ME, for a start !!! )

Whiteling,
Your picture is absolutely lovely...there weren't any others to go with it, by any chance ???
He and the girl in the pic seem so totally at ease with each other, there can be no doubt that Elijah, very likely, charmed the pants off most of the female production staff, you can just see it in his impish look...and to think I could have been on the costume-design team, if I'd done what I was originally thinking of doing for a living, costume-designing for film and theatre - these movies were EXACTLY the kind of thing I had in mind..and can you imagine getting Elijah into his costume and make-up every day, for a living !!! How Fab :D:D

Well, for anyone else who comes from the Good Old UK, like me, here is something that you should all definitely know about :-
http://www.aaaevents.co.uk/

Hobmom

01-09-2004, 04:36 PM

Alyon

01-09-2004, 08:02 PM

Charlie Rose tonight everyone. THis might be good.

Belated welcomes to ElanorSam and Dangermouse. More lively and smart women. I love it here. I'm glad you're here.

Whiteling--I can't get over that picture. Don't you wish you could turn the corner and see just THAT walking down the street, in those very same clothes and hair and THAT smile??? My goodness, sweetness and beauty and angels and princes come to life!!!:cool:

Honey--you are so good--the letter is fantastic. Give it to 'em good.:D :k

TG--I've neglected to mention your site and how wonderful it is to peruse through. Thanks for all the good work. and I also forgot to answer your question--will A.D. read the books??? Oh yes for sure. In fact you know how I had to keep my mouth shut (no spoilers) for the last couple of years?? Well after we saw the movie the first time I opened my mouth to finally spill everything and she tries to shut me up!!! She said, don't tell me anything about the book!! I want to be surprised. I said NO WAY. It's MY turn!!! I've waited all these months in tortured silence and I get to SPEAK!! So I did. Though there certainly is much for her to discover. She will definitely read the books.

By the way--We are going to Sundance in a few days and I will look for Hobbits. Sean was there last year. We are going because A.D. is in a movie showing there--I've hestitated to mention it because it seemed wierd to do so. But it is exciting for us and I hope you'll be thinking good wishes. I'll PM anybody who wants to know the name of the movie. Wanted to keep it a little anonymous on the board in a sort of superstitious way.

But I do have a fantasy of running into hobbits. Not likely, but the thought will keep me jumping.

Has anyone read Andy Serkus' book on The Making of Gollum?? A.D. bought it and it is a fun read. But what really strikes me is the wish the Elijah would talk as much about Frodo as Andy talks about Gollum. Or Ian about Gandalf or Sean about Sam. That boy is too modest. I remember during cast commentary for the Fellowship he mentions his own character about twice. I would love a book about Frodo and all the little details about script and filming. I understand the CG thing gives Andy a lot to talk about. But there certainly would be alot Elijah could tell us that would facinate me, at any rate.

On a cute little note. A friend (yes, another friend) and I had coffee the other day and I asked her about the movie. And for some reason we both got shy. She loved it. I loved it. We talked about a few theme things...We talked about Gandalf and Sean. And then I sort of said, "oh yeah, and wasn't Frodo fantastic?" (in a sort of looking at the ceiling way). And she looked at the table and quietly said "He was exquisite!! Fantastic. He was a hobbit. I could look at his eyes and his face for hours. Beautiful acting." I said kind of quietly and solemnly, "I really like Frodo." and she nodded quietly "I do, too."

It was so wierd because we both sounded so shy but full of emotion. Probably because it almost seemed sacriligeous to be picking apart this beautiful being, in a coffee shop. By two women who are, well....not his age.

wood

01-10-2004, 12:05 AM

hi everyone!!!
i have seen faculty, ice storm,huckel berry,oliver twist,try 17.
i love this movies now i have orderd flipper is there any one
who have seen it? i cant get enough of elijahs movies
he is the best actor in the world (to me)!
oh i forgott i have seen bumbelbees flys anyway to what
a god movie this are i have seen them all lots of times!!!
i cant stop wathing his butiful face and eyes!!!!!!!!:k ;) :cool:

zkgrumpy

01-10-2004, 01:54 AM

I too wish that Elijah would talk about Frodo as much as Sean/Sir Ian/Andy Serkis/etc talk about their characters. It may be difficult, first because he's 10 years younger than Sean, second because Frodo is a role that is acted from the inside out, third, because of the kind of actor that Elijah is.

Most of Frodo takes place in Frodo's mind/soul/spirit. Otherwise, he walks, stumbles, runs, makes love to the Ring, fights a little bit, and yells at Sam a lot. I think it would be a lot harder to verbalize Frodo, especially for a "natural" like Elijah. I suspect he doesn't have to verbalize to act.

The Charlie Rose thing was nice but waaaaaay too short. Elijah was wearing a really nice striped shirt with a coordinating tie - it didn't make him look like he was dressing up in his big brother's good suit. Sean wore a b&w striped shirt and a pin-striped suit jacket. In the wide shots, it was evident that Elijah's shirttails were hanging out, and that both Sean and Elijah were wearing blue jeans (BUSTED!) ;) I couldn't tell about Andy. He always looks hung over (sorry).

There will almost certainly be a transcript on TORN; usually seems to be so I won't summarize and I still can't seem to work the dad-burned video capture correctly. Harrumph. As my grandma said of the (manual) egg-beater: "Oh, I don't understand them new machines".

Elijah's hair was sticking out all over, of course, but looked good. It looked like hair that's been growing out since he shaved it this summer.

They all sat around looking terribly mature and intelligent. ;) Occasionally, Elijah seemed to get a "Please don't call on me - call on that big kid over there" expression, but of course handled himself very well.

One really cute thing that I don't think could be acted was when Charlie asked if PJ had to do anything special to form a bond between Sean and Elijah to portray the closeness between Sam and Frodo. They both chuckled, got this indescribable expression of affection, and said, almost in unison: "He cast us". I don't think they could fake those expressions.

There was the occasional giggle from Elijah, and one big WHOOP! of laughter from him when Andy did Gollum's voice for Charlie.

Maybe it was just the more serious nature of the program, but Elijah looks older. Of course, he *is* four years older than when filming started! But he's starting to look like a true adult. He's losing his baby face - getting the angles and corners and facial definition that grownups get.

I was noticing something else today, while lying on my bed of pain (well, bronchitis anyway) and watching the movies yet again. ;)

At the beginning of FotR, I suspect they filmed at least the interior shots of Frodo through gauze or softened them somehow, because Frodo looks so young and innocent. At the Council of Elrond, I was doing some microexpression analysis (I *LOVE* that Zoom button on the remote!!). I think that I've gone through a shift in perception. Elijah's big blue eyes are striiking and I think they're the first feature that everyone notices. Frodo's curls, along with those eyes, make him look young, vulnerable, innocent. I think my gaze has finally torn itself away from Elijah's eyes to the rest of his face. All of a sudden, I could see what he's going to look like in 20 years. He's got a marvelous set of cheekbones, a beautiful profile (eatcher heart out John Barrymore!), and a *very* strong-looking jaw and chin, complete with cleft. Dimples and softness will become angles and creases and he's going to be even more of a knockout than he is now.

In any case, I got a whole different picture of Frodo at the Council of Elrond. He looked a lot more mature than I gave him credit for up until today.

~grumpy

honeyelf

01-10-2004, 02:44 AM

ZKgrumpy:The Charlie Rose thing was nice but waaaaaay too short.

Yeah! How come he makes three actors divy up a half-hour, then gives a "whole half" hour to Alec What's-his-face? But Elijah and Sean were adorable. I've saved it on my Tivo so I can watch it again.

Loved Sean acknowledging that this movie may be good for young men in that it shows that males can care tenderly for one another. I'm making a hash of what he said, though.

Advantage to my new Projector set-up: I can listen with the picture off! At least half my brain was occupied with wondering how Elijah manages to just get more and more beautiful.

Blossom, thank you for the Minas Morgul gif! :k I can almost "feel his blade" there too. Frodo looks nauseated by the pain and shock of it. He makes me feel a little nauseous in sympathy, remembering that kind of shocky state you get in when in real pain. lackofsleepismakingmeratherinarticulatehopei'mmakingamodicumofsensehere

Glad my letter has your stamp of approval! Wouldn't want to put the Faculty to shame!:D

Honey!

ainon

01-10-2004, 05:30 AM

Blossom! Thank you, thank you, thank you! Hold on, I'll make you a layered pandan cake. :k :k ((((Blossom)))) I'm so content to just stare at it in immense appreciation ... thank goodness Honey's stepped in with some wise Faculty analysis - which I absolutely agree with - for what makes that scene so incredible. ;)

Speaking of which, great letter Honey! And well, whatyaknow? A reply. Good!

Originally posted by Hobmom
Oh poor, poor Mr.Newman. LOL. Do not meddle in the affairs of wizards or lady LOTR fans.

LOL!

Thanks for the early pre-TORN Charlie Rose update, grumpy. :)

And to everyone going to the Lincoln Centre - or who've gone, I think it'd be, by this time - ENJOY! '

whiteling

01-10-2004, 05:37 AM

Happy Birthday, Viola Took! :)
Have a great day!

Dangermouse :) sorry, I forgot to say WELCOME to you in my last post! Loved your first post about the physicality of Elijah's acting. Yes, he acts with every fibre of his body, doesn't he? Perhaps we should do (in addition to the micro expression thing) somewhat like cell acting research?!

Sheryl, the Elijah Mah Jong is too much for me. That sight of this bunch of multiple twinkling little Elijah tiles... I don't know, I think I'm not enough hyperactive to do this. :p

Blossom, your gif kills me :) ! Thank you! Honeyelf is very right - it's makes one really feeling sick. But what a difference to his "feeling the blade" moment in TTT! There the sharply pain hits him just suddenly like here. But in Minas Morgul he is so much weaker and his reaction comes near to throe.

Alyon, loved your tale about your coffee shop experience. How sweet :) ! *blush*

Lady Wendy said:
Whiteling,
Your picture is absolutely lovely...there weren't any others to go with it, by any chance ???

Wendy -
Sad to say the cutie pic I've posted was by far the most interesting one. Maybe the following is nice, too:

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/cave.jpg

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/costumes.jpg
I love to see the word HERO written on his costumes ;) !

BLOSSOM

01-10-2004, 07:48 AM

Ainon and Enai - Are you ladies trying to fatten me up? Cookies AND a layered Pandan cake. I really shouldn't - oh, go on then! I have absolutely no willpower!

Grumpy - thanks for the details on the Charlie Rose show. I love watching Elijah in interviews. He has the most expressive face. I could look at him for hours.:) Interesting comments about how Elijah's looking more 'adult' these days. He was beautiful before, but he just seems to improve with age. I don't know what it is exactly, but that young man just HAS something.

Alyon. Congratulations to A.D. on her movie role. Enjoy - you must be very proud of her.:)
I liked your coffee shop story too. I love it when I unexpectedly discover someone else who appreciates Elijah. While hubby and I were visiting my sister last night, one of her elderly neighbours came in. She knows I'm a Rings fan - she won't watch the films herself, because of 'the horrible faces.' (her words) She asked if I'd been to see 'the latest one' yet. It turns out her sister loves the LOTR films, although she hasn't read the books. Anyway, Shirley - the neighbour - said that when her sister saw ROTK it made her cry - :) - and went on to say that her sister told her the acting is great, and that the 'young lad who plays the main character' - (again, her words) is 'wonderful.'
To which my 11-year old nephew pipes up: 'Oh, don't get her started on Elijah Wood.' Who? ME?:rolleyes:
To which Shirley replied, 'Yes, that's his name. My sister says he's a fantastic young actor.'
All this with no prompting from me - just her sister's opinion. I don't know her, but I think I'd get along just fine with Shirley's sister.:)

I got Andy Serkis's Gollum book off hubby for Christmas, Alyon. He has nice things to say about Elijah in there. But yes, I would LOVE to hear more from Elijah about his thoughts on Frodo. I heard that Sean Astin would be doing a book - possibly entitled, 'There And Back Again' - about his experiences on the LOTR films. I imagine there would be lots of Elijah-related material in that one, considering how close they became.

Whiteling - thanks for that new behind-the-scenes pic. I've been going through the extras on the FOTR AND TTT DVD's doing lots of behind-the-scenes gifs. There are so many lovely shots of Frolijah/Elijah - he always seems so pleasant and 'normal' with everyone - just like he is in that adorable 'charmer' pic you posted earlier.

Flourish, and anyone else going to The Lincoln Centre - have a good time. Be sure to come back and tell us all about it.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY VIOLA - HAVE A GOOD ONE!

I'm off to view the Elijah 'Daily Show' interview which has been downloading from frodoandsam.net while I've been writing this post. Thanks, Elve.
Bye.

peaceweaver

01-10-2004, 12:22 PM

I await with bated breath the reports of the Lincoln Center attendees. :)

And wasn't Elwood lovely on the Charlie Rose show? Yes, it was too short, and zkg, I agree that he occasionally looked like he didn't want to be called on. :p All three guys were articulate, informed and personable. My son who was watching over my shoulder guffawed loudly when Andy did his Gollum voice.

In case you haven'e heard: A&E is doing not one, but TWO shows on LOTR tomorrow (Sunday, January 11): They are airing a TWO-HOUR special on the trilogy as the feature in a program called "Breakfast with the Arts." It airs at 8 am eastern time. And then they are doing another show on "The making of LOTR" at 10 PM eastern time. I don't know how much new stuff will be there, but by golly, that's why Eru invented fast forward!! ;)

whiteling: those photos are lovely. Frodo hero. Yes. Elwood the Charmer. Yes.

honeyelf: Excellent letter, girl. :)

Big hellos to those Faculty members who have recently joined the discussion. And Happy Birthday to Viola Took!!

Dangermouse

01-10-2004, 04:06 PM

peaceweaver: thank you for posting the showtimes for tomorrow...now I have my trusty VCR at the ready! All the LOTR goodness...

On the subject of random people appreciating EW: I just recently found out my Mom is a fan! She is utterly bored by LOTR (doesn't like epic or fantasy) but she commented that EW was amazing and that she saw him when he was a kid in "Avalon" and couldn't believe someone that small could be that good. Said he had a "god-given talent!" (her expression, not mine). That almost makes up for her not liking LOTR! :)

BLOSSOM

01-10-2004, 06:33 PM

Apologies for posting again so soon, but just had to pop in to pass on some news to any UK Facultiers with access to satellite or cable TV:

I was scrolling through the channels a few minutes ago and came across Elijah! That made me sit up and pay attention! It was the interview he did on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart. (the one I downloaded tonight) Unfortunately I only caught the very end when Jon Stewart told Elijah he was one of the nicest people in the business (that's our boy) and the credits rolled. :(

Oh, damn and blast it, I thought, I missed the chance to tape it. But then I scrolled through to Sunday's programmes, and guess what? Elijah's appearance is repeated on Sunday 11th January (technically that's later today) at 11.30pm on channel 513 - CNN. Set those VCR's.

I also noticed that Late Night with Conan O'Brien is also scheduled for 8.45pm on Sunday 11th January, on channel 510 - CNBC. I know Elijah did this show recently, though the programme synopsis doesn't give details of the guests. But it's worth taking a look.

Carry on.

tgshaw

01-10-2004, 09:09 PM

A Very Happy Birthday to Viola!! (Although in that part of the world, I suppose it's over by now :o .)

I've been reading all the wonderful posts here, but just haven't had anything to add--partly because most of the TV being talked about is on channels I don't get :( . I've had the Charlie Rose website bookmarked ever since he interviewed PJ w-a-y-b-a-c-k, and just checked to see if they had the audio download available yet for the January 9 program. So far they're only up to January 2, but I'm sure they'll have it soon.

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
I too wish that Elijah would talk about Frodo as much as Sean/Sir Ian/Andy Serkis/etc talk about their characters. It may be difficult, first because he's 10 years younger than Sean, second because Frodo is a role that is acted from the inside out, third, because of the kind of actor that Elijah is.

Most of Frodo takes place in Frodo's mind/soul/spirit. Otherwise, he walks, stumbles, runs, makes love to the Ring, fights a little bit, and yells at Sam a lot. I think it would be a lot harder to verbalize Frodo, especially for a "natural" like Elijah. I suspect he doesn't have to verbalize to act.

YesYesYesYes!!! I think that's exactly true. Even from the way Elijah's responded to some questions over the last few years, it sounds as if much of what he does isn't consciously planned--I do think he's learning to "hone" the natural gift that's there as he gets older. IMVHO, a lot of what he does couldn't be consciously planned.

----Those comments from grumpy, and the ones from dangermourse (Hi :) ) about Elijah's physical acting, lead to the only thing I really have to offer right now: the January updates (finally) on my website. Been having some trouble with my DVD program, so instead of making a new batch of screencaps, I "had" to use ones I'd already taken :rolleyes: . Ever since I first saw the scene with Sting at Sam's throat in Osgiliath, I've been totally blown away by what happens in those few moments. I hadn't posted the caps yet, partly because there were so many of them, and partly because there were things that came up in discussion here that I wanted to get on the site first. But, they were sitting there waiting to be used, and since I couldn't take new ones... ;)

A warning that there's a heckuva lot of screencaps involved and, even though they're divided among 6 pages, they can still take a long time to load. As usual, the interpretation is strictly my own, and I'd love to hear comments--there's so much going on right now that I don't expect people to have a lot of time for "intensive TTT study" at the moment, but maybe when things show down a bit on other fronts. :)

There are a few other new things posted for January, some serious and some not :) . Easiest thing is to click on the "www" at the bottom of this post and go from there.

Immediate edit: Oh, oh, oh, I forgot!! I was watching FotR this afternoon (the DVD program's not completely out of commission) to check my memory on some lines I'd quoted on the website and was totally surprised to see flash before me a smile very similar to Frodo's final farewell at the Grey Havens. Not exactly the same, but close enough to stop me in my tracks. It's when Frodo smiles in response to Gandalf's remarks about what amazing creatures hobbits are. ---- So, just wanted to pass that on. --- resume normal discussion, please :p .

Alyon

01-10-2004, 10:18 PM

Said by HoneyElf:
Loved Sean acknowledging that this movie may be good for young men in that it shows that males can care tenderly for one another. I'm making a hash of what he said, though.

I liked the way Sean talked about the tender moments in the movie. He didn't try to explain them or defend them--he just sort said, they are there, they are real, and if boys are going to react uncomfortably to them, well then, they need to see them. They go for the battles, and the side dish is the tenderness and that's a good piece of medicine. Though he didn't say those exact words. I don't remember his exact words but it felt fresh to me. He didn't spend time justifying a thing. Just said it's good for boys to see it and if they are uncomfortable, then it's good to broach that boundary. Now I'm the one who has made hash....but whatever...it was brave and sweet.

Blossom--that is a sweet story about your sister's neighbor's friend (did I get that right?)--it is nice to hear about the various connections in the EW admiration society. Thank you.

Regarding books. Wouldn't it be nice to have more volumes like the Weapons and Warfare book, on various different subjects? Artifacts, family histories, architecture, clothing? (I guess I also want something with more hobbit info in it). speaking of Weapons and Warfare--a great book--until you look at the Frodo and Sam entries. Again--I love Sam and he is a hero--but in the book it says he is the greatest hobbit of all time--and the one with the greatest inner strength. I love Sam, but I beg to differ...

Wow--I'm off topic. From Frodo to EW. Charile Rose was on the other extreme of interviews from Jay Leno. Just a little too serious so that you don't get the guests feeling comfortable enough to josh around. But it was nice to hear some real answers. It was good, but if it had been allowed to go on longer it might have developed a little more easy rhythm

zkgrumpy

01-11-2004, 02:37 AM

From Charlie Rose. I had quite a struggle with my Bad Twin Jessica over some of the captions. I lost. ;)

Do you see what I mean about his looking more adult? It shows especially when he sits up. When he pulls his head down into his shoulders he looks like he's about 16.

http://www.geocities.com/zkgrumpy2003/charlie1.html

http://www.geocities.com/zkgrumpy2003/charlie2.html

~grumpy (it's bitterly cold here)(My bathroom pipes sound like Fangorn Forest)(This is not good)

shadowcatshadow

01-11-2004, 02:44 AM

I also noticed that in "The Bumblebee Flies Anyway" that Elijah somehow looked like a MAN instead of the TEENAGER (clueless) in the movie storyline.

He looked like a Man with a Youthful face (he still LOOKED 14), but the BODY was somehow BIGGER more DEFINED. :D :cool:

(Compare "Flipper" and it looks like in REVERSE an OLD face, on a 14 year old's body. Ever notice that there is a sharp difference between a MAN'S body, even if the Face looks young? Somehow his chest and shoulders were bigger, more developed.)

I was also a little shocked at seeing Elijah's body in TBFA, because I thought of the book version, and it DIDN'T mention NUDITY. (has this EVER happened to some of You?)

I also wonder how Elijah got his voice to go Falsetto on SNL. Did he suck on Helium? Did his voice REALLY get that high? Because THAT was SO hilarious. :D

Lady Wendy

01-11-2004, 02:53 AM

Alyon,
On a cute little note. A friend (yes, another friend) and I had coffee the other day and I asked her about the movie. And for some reason we both got shy. She loved it. I loved it. We talked about a few theme things...We talked about Gandalf and Sean. And then I sort of said, "oh yeah, and wasn't Frodo fantastic?" (in a sort of looking at the ceiling way). And she looked at the table and quietly said "He was exquisite!! Fantastic. He was a hobbit. I could look at his eyes and his face for hours. Beautiful acting." I said kind of quietly and solemnly, "I really like Frodo." and she nodded quietly "I do, too."

Do you know, this struck a chord with me too..at work there is someone, who is one of my section managers, and when FOTR first came out, I mentioned that I'd been to see it and was blown away by it, and she immediately reacted extremely enthusiastically about the fact that she was SOOOO looking forward to seeing it because LOTR was her favourite book of all time, and that she had the big illustrated version with pics by Alan Lee...she went to see the film and absolutely loved it...so later when the Ext.DVD came out, she was hoping and hoping that her boyfriend was going to get it for her for Christmas ( he did !)
After that, she moved position within our team and she was no longer my personal section manager, and I only see her at occasional times like breaks etc, and do we discuss LOTR ? Do we Hell...it's a funny thing, when you're older we tend not to own up to obsessions with people at work, particularly our managers or bosses, because we somehow feel that we shouldn't be so immature, ie behaving like a teenager, about a movie...it's ridiculous really...why shouldn't we own up to a few passions ? Just makes us more Human, I reckon...I'd happily discuss LOTR with her, but owning up to a love for an actor who is young enough to be my son, well I'd rather NOT expose myself to potential ridicule thank-you !!! :rolleyes:

zkgrumpy,

I'd certainly agree with your thoughts about Elijah looking older and more adult - more angles to his face etc...I think that Elijah will be one of those actors who will look good all their lives because of their excellent facial bone structure...not to mention that he's just an allround thoroughly NICE person, and he's definitely keeping it real, as he says !!! There's no huge over-inflated ego there, and that's what's so good about him, imo. Those God-given eyes will always be a good instrument for him as an actor, given that he can convey so much with them, emotionally speaking.
As for the role of Frodo, yes, it IS largely an internal role this, and Elijah's talents in this direction become all to obvious the minute he stood up from under the tree as Gandalf's cart came clattering down the lane...Somewhere, on some message-board or other, I read that someone's friend who'd never heard of Elijah Wood before, gave an audible gasp when that scene happened, and said " My God, is he for real ???" Hmmm, yes, my thoughts exactly ...

Blossom,
Thank-you so much for the heads up about the interview on CNN tonight...I'd never have even thought of checking out that channel, it's one that I never watch...We have cable and we've clustered all our channels together according to type, so I'll be taping channel 43 tonight then !!! Elijah seems to be really doing the chat-show circuit to death right now, but only on US TV it seems...well, he's due to come over to us in April to start filming "Hooligans" ( this wouldn't happen to be taking place at Ealing Studios. by any happy chance, would it ?...right up my street...I should be so lucky !!! ) so we should be getting him on our chat-shows, imagine him on Graham Norton, that would be a laugh ...OOH can't wait....:D :D :D

honeyelf

01-11-2004, 07:13 AM

Alyon and Blossom, I loved your stories about meeting fellow UFOs.

This has yet to happen to me. Found out another of my co-workers is a LOTR fan, though she is an elf-fancier. Told her my favorite characters are Frodo-and-Sam, as there is very little point having one without the other:D She said that she thought movie Sam was too weak since he was constantly bursting into tears! :confused: This from a very young woman who claims to love the books over the movies! I asked when was the last time she read the books, because Book!Sam was constantly bursting into tears! :confused: She said "well, it makes sense in the books, but in the movie why would he cry when Frodo tells him to go home?" :eek: Um....just a thought, but maybe because the person he loves most in all middle-earth is no longer rational, and has chosen a murderous little creep as a traveling companion???

Wendy:
I'd happily discuss LOTR with her, but owning up to a love for an actor who is young enough to be my son, well I'd rather NOT expose myself to potential ridicule thank-you !!!

The one time I did ask someone what she thought specifically of Elijah Wood in the movies, she only said "He was OK." Yeah, one of those "hmmmm....weird horse" people.

Regarding the Charlie Rose interview, when Mr. Rose asked the lads about the fan reaction and Elijah responded that the fans seem pleased, but some had minor quibbles. Do you suppose the fans share their "quibbles" with him??? (If I ever met him and got a chance to thank him for being Frodo, I don't think I'd waste time talking about my quibbles!) My husband thought that this was was a particularly ungracious answer, and that Sean's was better, but maybe their experiences are just different? (Must admit I got a tad defensive for our boy! Lovely Lij being ungracious? Maybe just a wee bit young, slightly inexperienced? Never ungracious! No, not ......Master...;) )

If I'm not making a lot of sense put it down to insomnia.

Honey!

zkgrumpy

01-11-2004, 01:02 PM

I finally figured out how to use that ding-blasted eggbeater. Here's links to captures from that Primetime 'Lij broadcast a few weeks ago.

http://www.geocities.com/zkgrumpy2003/primetimelij1.html

http://www.geocities.com/zkgrumpy2003/primetimelij2.html

http://www.geocities.com/zkgrumpy2003/primetimelij3.html

~grumpy (you *can* get to these links, can't you?)

Flourish

01-11-2004, 01:17 PM

Here's my report on yesterday's event (also posted at TORn). I took pictures during the Q&A from our seats in the eighth row (!) but with a conventional camera--they won't be ready for a while and then I have to get somebody to scan them.

The final question in the Q&A was about Frodo's smile--I'm betting that was someone from here who asked it so I will let her tell her story. ;)

Meanwhile, here's mine--

What a wonderful day! We had not just the very great pleasure of seeing the three films back-to-back in a superb theater with an adoring audience (and with the luxury of meal breaks in between) but the chance to see the actors in person and feel the thrill that ran through the house when they walked out on stage, and the rush of excitement and affection for them that brought the entire audience to its feet to cheer and applaud them. And this was a pretty sophisticated New York crowd, mind you! We basically went wild.

Elijah Wood and Sean Astin introduced FOTR, Andy Serkis and Bernard Hill introduced TTT, and all four of them introduced ROTK and did the Q&A afterwards.

The actors spoke a lot about their surprise and pleasure in finding that people are grateful to them for "getting Sam right" and so forth (someone shouted "Thank you!" from the back of the house), and about their amazement at how big a phenomenon the films have become and their assured place in film history (enthusiastic applause). Elijah asked the FOTR audience how many had already been to Trilogy Tuesday and it looked like about half the 1100 people there were hollering and waving their arms in reply. He appeared quite happily astonished.

Before ROTK he asked how many in the house had already sat through FOTR and TTT, and of course virtually everyone cheered madly. Sean said something about how insane we were, and how we would probably sit through even more if it were possible (loud cheers and applause), but I didn't get the same sense of pleasant kidding from him that I got from Elijah on the same subject. Sean went on a little too long about "idiots" for tact, I thought.

Elijah also asked the audience whether they thought the EEs were better than the theatrical versions (we had just sat through the EEs of the first two films). Immense cheers!

When Andy Serkis was announced to introduce TTT, he didn't come out right away--instead there was heard a brief but acrimonious backstage discussion between Gollum and Smeagol about whether to "go out there" or not. Andy won and came out to a very enthusiastic reception.

The films were wonderfully presented and the audience was great. We cheered and laughed, and most of the last half-hour of ROTK was accompanied by huge bursts of happy applause.

For the Q&A the actors were joined by Peter Jackson in the form of a huge video picture live via satellite from New Zealand. They all were relaxed and happy and took questions from the audience with grace and good humor. When the image of Peter appeared on the screen the actors got silly and were bowing down before it, which PJ said was quite appropriate. (I'm not sure he could see the proceedings as well as hear them; I don't think so.) Then they had him hold his hands out and make scooping gestures while they pretended to tumble about in his fingers. That was pretty hilarious--and probably the cheapest special-effects shot I've seen in quite a while.

There was nothing original in any of the questions or the answers--at least not if you've been reading about the films even a little bit on the Internet or in the print media! Someone asked about the omission of Tom Bombadil and the Scouring of the Shire and the audience booed him, but PJ gave his usual calm and rational answer. Other questions for the actors that I can recall off the top of my head were about what they're doing now, whether they had any difficulties working in NZ for such a long time (Bernard Hill said the hardest thing about it was leaving), and what was the most memorable or resonant line they felt their character had in the films.

Sean said, "That's easy, it's 'I can't carry it but I can carry you." (huge applause)

Bernard Hill said, "I know your face."

Andy made a joke about Gollum's lines that I didn't quite get because of laughter from the audience, but he said he particularly liked Gandalf's line, "Do not be too ready to deal out death and judgement. Some who die deserve life..."

Elijah didn't seem to have an answer ready, but Sean suggested, "The Shire has been saved but not for me," to which Elijah agreed.

Early in the Q&A Bernard Hill got into a long and solemn monologue--I think in answer to a question about the relevance of the films' themes of good and evil in today's world--in which he spoke in rather oblique terms about the way the real world has changed in the last four years and how that gave scary prominence to those themes, and finally he worked himself up to mentioning 9/11 and the Two Towers-Twin Towers thing. There was no reaction from the audience--perhaps it was respectful silence (this was New York after all), but I had the idea that the evening had had such a party atmosphere until that point that just no one wanted to hear about the World Trade Center right then.

I think it was PJ (or perhaps Bernard Hill) who said something about Sean and politics, and PJ was chanting, "Sean Astin for president" which got a big round of applause. Sean responded by saying that there were quite a few New Zealanders at the ROTK premier who were promoting PJ for prime minister "and they weren't kidding."

Andy talked a bit about the "addiction" theory that motivated his characterization of Gollum's little problem with the Ring, and he gave generous credit to the screenwriters Philippa Boyens and Fran Walsh (more applause) and to all the technical people he'd worked with. He also mentioned that when his agent called him about a "three-week voiceover job" for an animated character on the Lord of the Rings films, at first he told his agent he wanted to turn it down and said, "There are lots of parts in that movie--can't you get me a better one?"

Peter had combed his hair and wore a striped polo shirt that the actors kidded him about because they said it was dirty. Honestly, I couldn't tell.

All the actors have made quite a few films since LOTR wrapped so it's amazing that they're still willing to talk about their experience so often and so readily. They each spoke a little bit about what they're doing next--I think if I understood him correctly that Andy said he would like to continue exploring CGI and motion capture roles as a sub-genre of acting (one very interesting thing about watching ROTK and TTT back to back was seeing the huge improvement in Gollum's articulation that was possible in a single year). Sean said he had a lot of scripts to look at, and Bernard Hill said he was leaving the screening early "to go to Sean's room and nick a few of those scripts." He went on to say that he was very reasonably priced and was sure that Peter would vouch for his good working habits. Solemn nods from huge Peter!

Elijah said he'd shot "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" this year and paid Jim Carrey what seemed like a very backhanded compliment on his acting performance in it--I can't remember exactly how he worded it but I thought it was one of those damning-with-faint-praise things and it raised Peter's eyebrows for a moment. Elijah then mentioned the film he's making in England this spring called "Hooligans."

Sean said he'd met with Robert DiNiro that day and characterized him as "shy." He said he hoped they'd be working on something together soon. The audience seemed to agree.

Peter answered a question about a possible film of "The Hobbit" by saying that it is a somewhat problematic situation at the moment since New Line has the rights to make it but not to distribute it, and they would like to have both. He also said the storyline is far less complex than LOTR, which presents filmmaking problems because it is such a linear tale. What would also make it hard to adapt, said Peter, is the ending, in which after all the fuss about defeating the dragon Smaug, he is killed by a character who appears out of nowhere and the story continues on to a huge battle in which the dragon has no part. New Line hasn't spoken to him about "The Hobbit" at all, said Peter, but if they got the rights he hopes they will because, as he's said before, it would be "strange" if anyone else made the film.

There were flashbulbs popping all over the place during every appearance of the actors on stage, but virtually no opportunity for autographs during the event unless you were in the front row and caught the actors as they were walking off the stage. No matter--it was enough of a thrill just to be there!

Ariel

01-11-2004, 07:20 PM

Flourishs report is quite excellent and I have little to add to it except that it was Hewene who asked the smile question, and it was actually more specifically about the nod than the smile. LOL. Elijah didnt seem to remember even doing it, but generously went along. PJ explained what he believed it to mean in very round about terms that I wasnt sure I understood, but after he finished, Elijah said yeah, but he also thought it might have meant Everythings gonna be OK.

I was grinning ear to ear.

Originally posted by Flourish
someone shouted "Thank you!" from the back of the house

Several people did It was really sweet.

Oh, and about PJs shirt it was a bit dirty he wore this striped maroon and grey and yellow polo shirt. There was a stain in the front (right about where stuff always hits my shirts :rolleyes: ) but it wasnt too distracting on Saturday BUT.. the really funny thing is he had the same shirt on on Sunday! LOL! Complete with stain! I commented on it to my seatmate (a haremite) and then when the actors came back in on Sunday for the Conversations business, Elijah picked on him about it too. I felt kind of sorry for PJ! HEHEHE but I guess if he is making the kind of money he is now he can wear anything he pleases.

Originally posted by Flourish
Elijah said he'd shot "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" this year and paid Jim Carrey what seemed like a very backhanded compliment on his acting performance in it--I can't remember exactly how he worded it but I thought it was one of those damning-with-faint-praise things and it raised Peter's eyebrows for a moment.
He said Jim Carrey gives one of the best performances I have ever seen(slight pause).. out of him. (laughter) No, really. (More laughter)
(I recorded it)

More later.

Ariel

Flourish

01-11-2004, 07:49 PM

Thanks, Ariel. Is it OK to mention the smile/nod question, then? Elijah really didn't remember what he had done but Peter simply said it meant, "Thank you," to which Elijah then added that it meant, "You'll be all right... without me."

Looking forward to hearing about today's event!

Ariel

01-11-2004, 10:48 PM

Originally posted by Flourish
Is it OK to mention the smile/nod question, then?
Geez, I hope so! LOL! And yes, you are correct - that is exactly what they said. Good memory! My recording device got bits of things (much crowd noise) and I wasn't recording things I had heard before, but that was a piece I had to rely on my memory for. Good job remembering it.

There were several others at today's event too - it was a very interesting talk with PJ about his earlier films and his career. He really is very laid back and unpretentious and seems rather adamant about remaining so (Yeah!). I had seen his earlier works and found the segment of how he began in film quite fascinating. All in all a very good sort of fellow, I thought.

I am afraid a more detailed report on the actors session will have to wait until tomorrow when I have had some rest, (or when someone else who was there posts) but it had some good information and some very cute clowning around by the boys. At one point the AV equipment cut out and we lost PJ for quite a while. The actors started relaying accounts of some of the bloopers they had while on the set; the incident with Viggo and Bernard and the action figures was described and the tendency that SA had of wanting to get a closeup shot somewhere in FOTR seems he was rather eager to get one and PJ didnt want him to. When PJ came back, the audience was quite enthusiastic about the possibility of seeing these bloopers and PJ mumbled about putting something on a DVD so hopefully he will consider it more seriously.

OK signing off for some much needed sleep.

Ariel

ainon

01-12-2004, 12:58 AM

(((((Flourish & Ariel)))))

So this was what you had to contend with, huh? :D

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11728.jpg

Thank you both for your early reports! Flourish, it was cool to see yours up at TORn, and think, "Hey, my friend wrote that!" ;) Hope you guys have had time to rest ... now start telling more! :cool:

Grumpy, yes, I'm seeing the pics. Thank you. :k Very, very much liking his RL hair now. Please, don't let that chance even if he's off being a football hooligan. :p I *love* those behind-the-scenes Frolijah pics.

Whiteling, thank you too for sharing more pics! That pic of Elijah sitting with Sean - okay, that's not at all a comfortable position for legs to naturally be in. :p

Originally posted by honeyelf
She said that she thought movie Sam was too weak since he was constantly bursting into tears! This from a very young woman who claims to love the books over the movies! I asked when was the last time she read the books, because Book!Sam was constantly bursting into tears! She said "well, it makes sense in the books, but in the movie why would he cry when Frodo tells him to go home?"

And just another thought - wouldn't she cry too if something like that happened to her? :o I'd always figured that one thing the movies had done well was to really put forth just how human the characters are - how easy it is to relate to each and every one of them in ways similar to our own RL. Guess that didn't work for everyone. :rolleyes:

Anyway, the local LOTR fan charter had an article about the LOTR movies (http://lotrien.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2004/1/6/lotrien/7013171&sec=lotrien) and the lessons we learn from it. Kinda brings a smile to the face.

tgshaw - thank you for many great pages of Osgiliath goodness! Gotta agree with what you said about how heartbreaking some of those caps are. :( As usual, excellent analysis - the best we can have since not one commentary really addressed it. Well, PJ & co did say they wanted to mirror Frodo vs Gollum with Sam on the wrong end of the sword this time. And Elijah & Sean were clearly disappointed that their extended fight scene didn't make the final cut - anyone else felt like patting them and saying, "There, there."? :D

Blossom, you have more gifs you say? :gasp: We'll be good to you if you shares those gifs with us, oh yes. Cookies? Cakes? Grilled trouts? Fried anchovies? You name it and we'll makes it, oh yes. :D

Viola, I missed your birthday! It's bad enough I got you and Prim twinned :p but now I'm late with your real day ...

Happy Belated Birthday, Viola Took!

BLOSSOM

01-12-2004, 04:38 AM

Flourish - Thanks so much for your Lincoln Centre report -You lucky thing, you!!!:)

Grumpy - Thanks to you for the lovely pics - they're all beautiful.

Ainon - Hi. Thanks for the offer of trout, anchovies etc. I don't eat fish, or meat, but anything veggie would be gratefully received.:)

I DO have more gifs, but I'm afraid I'll have to pass on your request in this post, ainon - I have something else to share with you all.

I don't quite know where to start - I'm feeling so emotional about this. I discovered something this morning, or rather I heard something that I hadn't heard before. Now I NEVER notice things before anyone else - I'm usually the last one to catch on to anything, but I think I've found something on my rare species of crebain that no-one has mentioned before - well, it's been mentioned generally, but not specifically.

Oh, get on with it, I hear you all shout! OK, here goes...

ROTK SPOILER WARNING. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE HAPPY/HEARTBREAKINGLY EMOTIONALLY WRECKED DO NOT READ THIS.

I popped the crebain in the DVD this morning and was happily/angstily skipping from one Frodo/Sam scene to the next. Finally I arrived at The Grey Havens. Now I've read that people think Frodo may have whispered something to Sam as they hugged, but I haven't seen anyone say exactly what it was he said, or what they thought it was he said.

This particular crebain has absolutely rubbish sound that really jarrs on the ears, but I heard something on it this morning that reduced me to a jibbering wreck. First of all I THOUGHT I had heard it. Backtrack. Yes I'm SURE I heard it. Multiple backtracking with sound turned up as loud as I can stand it. Now I KNOW I heard it.

It comes just after Sam sort of snuggles closer in to Frodo's shoulder, and the shot moves to Frodo - here:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/ILoveYou.jpg

Frodo whispers: 'I LOVE YOU.'

WAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!

It's almost not a whisper, but more of a sigh. It slayed me, and I can't get it out of my head.

I didn't notice this in the cinema. but then I was sobbing, so maybe it's understandable. Has anyone else heard this? Ainon? Check your crebain!!! Anyone going to see ROTK at the cinema please, please pay special attention here. Please come back and tell me you heard it too! Tell me I'm not imagining it. I'm not. I know I'm not. I just checked it again on the computer with my headphones on, so it was right in my ears, and it's there. It's there, and I'm a puddle on the floor!

Frodo loves Sam!!! :) :) :)

The rest of the day will go by in a haze for me.

Blossom signs off in a mist of tears.

Off course, my obsession could just have sent me over the edge...

Apologies too if you are all aware of this already and I've completely missed the discussion! :confused:

I just thought - ainon, doesn't your crebain have subtitles? I haven't seen any mention of those three beautiful little words from you.

Flourish

01-12-2004, 07:53 AM

Wow, Blossom. I can honestly say I didn't hear a thing in that scene at Lincoln Center the other night (there's music building up in the background isn't there?), and it was by far the best sound system I've ever been able to enjoy any of the films with. However, if you heard it, you heard it. It's certainly a lovely idea.;)

Ariel, hope you're getting that well-earned rest. I didn't want to be stealing anyone else's thunder by telling that story, that's all, but I'm glad it was OK to report on it.

Ainon, lol! :k My 15 minutes of fame, yeah. :o

OK, I remembered something else from the Q&A, and again it's not new but just in the interests of full reporting--

Someone asked PJ whether any particular paintings or styles of art had inspired the look of the films, the costumes and so forth. PJ of course mentioned the conceptual artists John Howe and (oops, memory just blanked), and he said it was decided early on that the Elves would have a sort of Art Deco look to their culture. He felt, PJ said, that the Elves had probably invented Art Deco during their time in Middle Earth, and that we had merely rediscovered it in the 20s (appreciative laughter). He also said that the culture of Rohan had been based in that of Scandinavia and the North, which was what Tolkien had also had in mind, and that dictated a certain look for the Rohirrim in the film.

(Thinking about that answer this morning makes me shudder over something I read recently at CoE, that there was an idea floating around very early in the planning process that the Rohirrim should speak in a generic American accent. That's so stupid it just can't be true! :D )

Ariel

01-12-2004, 08:36 AM

No problem, Flourish. You are a more well known poster than I am in this thread and I am sure folks would rather have your report than mine. It is in actuality Hewene's 'thunder' so I will leave further elaboration to her. It simply made me happy to see that one of the ideas I had presented had been sort of confirmed.

Validation, of a sort... kind of. Hey, I am easily amused, what can I say? :p

edit: I also haven't heard anything said between Frodo and Sam during their hug - in any viewing or on my crebain - but if you did, Blossom, go for it. Your interpretation is as valid as anyone else's, right?

Ariel

shireling

01-12-2004, 08:45 AM

Oooh! I wish I could go to London in April! I think Elijah IS planning to be at that event. He will be over there filming 'Hooligans' around that time and he said he would be at this big autograph signing event then in London.

I'm at work and was just browsing through the Faculty posts when I came across THIS little message from HOBMOM. Had great trouble suppressing a hysterical squeal:D Can you remember where you read this Hobmom? I only recently learnt about this event and of course I know that Lij is filming here in April. I've been hoping he'd be able to take a break to attend CM5 which starts 30th April - perhaps he was referring to that but then if he said London it is more likely to be this one - sorry, I'm rambling like a complete lunatic here but the thought of having another chance to meet him affects me like that. I know I'm greedy, many people don't get one chance, but I keep tormenting myself with the thought that I didn't make the most of the few moments I had with him and let nerves get the better of me. If there is a next time I'm determined it will be different.

Enjoyed the details

I don't quite know where to start - I'm feeling so emotional about this. I discovered something this morning, or rather I heard something that I hadn't heard before

BLOSSOM, I'm so hoping you heard right - I shall certainly be listening out for that next time.

Love your reports Flourish & Ainon:)

Bridget Chubb

01-12-2004, 11:48 AM

Oh, my God.

Thank you, Blossom.:)

mustnotcryatwork.Mustnotcryatwork.:o

I know I'm greedy, many people don't get one chance, but I keep tormenting myself with the thought that I didn't make the most of the few moments I had with him and let nerves get the better of me. If there is a next time I'm determined it will be different.

Oh yes, Flourish - when I met Sean, I actually forgot to ask him for a hug when I got his autograph.:o I was just too excited to think. I was very lucky that I got another chance that day to ask him - and I'm so, so glad I did.:) If you do get to meet EW again - and I hope you do! - don't let your nerves make you shy!

whiteling

01-12-2004, 12:00 PM

Did you hear that?!

*Someone shouted "Thank you!" from the back of the Faculty*
That was me ;) !
:k Flourish and Ariel :k - many many thanks for your great LC reports! It's fun to read.

Tg, I'm still thinking over and digesting your 6 Page Osgiliath analysis... I've visited your site yesterday and scrolled through the caps for at least an hour. It's most astonishing and as you said I've been totally blown away by what happens in those few moments! Absolutely. I was taken aback by the huge number of facial expressions. Honestly, I find it hard to believe what slightest nuances become apparent on his face. - Thank you :k ! (Oh, and I love the Froshadowing subsitutes :) LOL!)

Grumpy - thank you for your eggbeater made screencaps :) ;) !
*hands Grumpy a cup of hot ginger/lemon tea with honey*

Originally posted by shireling
BLOSSOM, I'm so hoping you heard right - I shall certainly be listening out for that next time.

What she said. Blossom, that's awesome!!

zkgrumpy

01-12-2004, 12:01 PM

I forgot that thing that was on A&E last night! I came on it about 1/2 way through! It's the one that they showed on Primetime 'Lij, but I think it was edited a little differently, because there were things in it that I didn't remember. I'm looking for repeats.

When Sean and Elijah were sitting with their backs to that phenonmenally beautiful view of the harbor, they talked about Elijah's eyes. Sean said he'd spent literally hundreds of hours looking into Elijah's eyes during the shooting, and went into great detail describing the "eclipse" nature of them, and the little golden lights behind the blue. :::: melt ::::

PJ also talked about Elijah's eyes and the large number of closeups, because his eyes are so expressive. He said that Elijah thinks something, and it shows in his eyes.

I've said before that I had a feeling that a lot of people on that shoot fell a little bit in love with Elijah.

P.S. Didn't Billy look *wonderful* at the Critics Choice awards?!?

I also noticed something chilling last night when watching TTT (yet again). You know how they made Gollum's eyes an exaggeration, almost a caricature, of Frodo's (Elijah's) as a subtle link between them? I noticed something else. Gollum's fingernails are chewed down to the nubs.

:::: shudder ::::

Originally posted by BLOSSOM

ROTK SPOILER WARNING. IF YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE HAPPY/HEARTBREAKINGLY EMOTIONALLY WRECKED DO NOT READ THIS.

Frodo whispers: 'I LOVE YOU.'

WAAAAAAGGGGHHHH!!!

:::: sniffle :::: :::: snorch :::: :::: bawl ::::

I'm not surprised, though. In the book, at one point, Sam's watching Frodo sleep, and says to himself, matter-of-fact-ly, that he loves him. And Frodo, when he left, said that Sam could not always be torn in two; that he was meant to be well and whole.

Dad-gummit. There I go again. :::: wail ::::

~grumpy (I think I'll admit that I have the flu)(I'm just not shaking this thing)(Much rest and albuterol today)(Warm amber liquids would be nice)

Alyon

01-12-2004, 12:57 PM

Blossom!!!
Frodo whispers: 'I LOVE YOU.'
Ohhhhhh, my heart is thumping madly!!

Grumpy!!!

Sean said he'd spent literally hundreds of hours looking into Elijah's eyes during the shooting, and went into great detail describing the "eclipse" nature of them, and the little golden lights behind the blue. :::: melt ::::
and
PJ also talked about Elijah's eyes and the large number of closeups, because his eyes are so expressive. He said that Elijah thinks something, and it shows in his eyes.

How marvelously beautiful. My thumping heart needs a break. But I don't want one...

Thank you Flourish and Ariel for your reports!!! Read a report on TORN--can't wait for the blooper reel.

Grumpy--I hope you feel better soon. C and Zinc (but not on an empty stomach) is my recommendation.

Blossom!!! A fellow veggie!! Want some vegan fudge? It's actually good and it's my breakfast this morning! :D:cool:

Alyon

honeyelf

01-12-2004, 01:30 PM

Blossom, I'm going to see RoTK again tomorrow night. I shall listen verrrrrrry carefully. Though honestly it doesn't make a whit of difference to me whether Frodo says it or not! You can see it, very nearly feel it! We know Frodo and Sam love each other dearly, and how could they not after everything they've been through together. (Don't you just love that moment in TTT when Sam is talking and Frodo can't hear him, at Osgiliath, but you can see Sam mouthing the word together over and over?)

Is anyone else feeling a tremendous sense of loss and depression that this is all over? The movies are done. I can go to every EJW movie between now and the end of time, and he'll never be Frodo Baggins again. I don't know how to describe what I'm feeling just now, but I feel so sad and alone.

My letter didn't make the feed back column in the local paper. Someone wrote a long treatise on gay marriage, or some such socially relevant issue and hogged all the space. :p :rolleyes: S'OK. Last time I wrote a letter to the paper it was on taking children to R-rated movies. It became the opening paragraph in an article on the topic. (I was definitely ANTI.) Someone in Authority over me saw it, and months later took me to task for it. Never mind. Don't ask.

Everyone who's been reporting on this weekend's event, thank you! Great stuff!

Honey! whowillnowprobablyhavetoskiplunchtomakeittoworkontime:rolleyes:

BLOSSOM

01-12-2004, 01:32 PM

Regarding Frodo's 'I love you.'

When hubby came home from work today, I sat him down in front of the TV, (actually I tied him to the chair - only joking) popped the crebain in the DVD player, fast-forwarded to The Grey Havens, and told him to listen very carefully.

You're right, Flourish, the music builds to a bit of a crescendo there, and as I said earlier the sound on my crebain is astoundingly bad. I didn't give hubby any notion of what Frodo might be saying, I just told him to listen in the appropriate spot. First time he heard something, but couldn't make it out, so I backtracked and turned up the volume. This time he heard it.

'I think he's saying, 'I love you,' he said. I was so happy that someone else heard it, and heard the same words that I did, and that it wasn't my imagination.

I've been thinking about it (I've hardly thought of anything else all day - my stomach does somersaults everytime I hear it in my head) and I'm wondering if perhaps we're not meant to hear it - if that makes any sense at all. Why is it there if the audience isn't meant to hear it? But I said this to hubby, who got a bit deep and meaningful himself (unusual for him) and said, 'Yes. It's a private moment between Frodo and Sam.' It almost feels like you're eavesdropping on something very special between these two - Frodo's words are intended for Sam's ears only.

As I said, it's barely a whisper - almost a sigh, and the words are uttered through that sigh. I'm now totally convinced that Frodo says' 'I love you.' It's so softly spoken, and so beautifully delivered by Elijah. I honestly cannot believe I'm the only one who's noticed this, but I've heard no reference to it from the actors, no questions put to them about it - it's a bit of a mystery.

Since I heard this I can hardly bear to watch this scene. Those three whispered words make Frodo's kiss on Sam's forehead, his lingering gaze into Sam's face before he turns away even more poignant and heartbreaking. I can't watch it - even to do screencaps - without crying - even more than It made me cry before. I mean it REALLY upsets me, and I'm not sure if it's because I'm happy that Frodo's told Sam that he loves him, or sad because he told him and then had to leave his most beloved friend behind.

And Sam's expression certainly alters right after Frodo utters those words. It's so, so beautiful, and I think very brave of PJ & co to include this, albeit in an extremely inconspicuous and subtle way.

I so badly want one of you ladies to hear those words. They ARE there. I know it in my heart.:)

I thought it was interesting too, Grumpy, that in the book it's Sam who openly tells the reader, 'I love him.' I wish that A&E documentary had aired here in the UK. Lucky Sean, getting to look into 'The Eyes' for so long and so often. Bliss!

In my eyes Elijah is mesmerising throughout the entire Grey Havens scene. The others are crying, but the sadness in Frodo's eyes breaks my heart everytime.

I'm rambling - sorry. I'll shut up about it now.

Ainon, I started to make screencaps for a gif of Frodo and Sam's GH hug, but a visitor turned up unexpetedly, so I had to leave it. I'm in Cornwall all day tomorrow, so I will get it done as soon as possible. Watch this space.

Must go - have to get up VERY early.
Bye.

Alyon, Honey - just saw your posts.

Alyon - your vegan fudge sounds delicious.
Honey - Listen VERY carefully.:)

hobbityme

01-12-2004, 01:48 PM

Blossom, that would be beyond amazingly wonderful!!! I am definitely going to listen out for that this weekend.

However, a thought just crossed my mind when you asked why it was so soft. Perhaps it's Elijah telling Sean. I mean maybe it's because the scene was so beautiful and sad that at that moment, Elijah felt it appropriate to express that to Sean.

It definitely would have helped Sean feel more sad than ever that the experience of filming is almost over.

Steelsheen

01-12-2004, 02:13 PM

Originally posted by Flourish
Someone asked PJ whether any particular paintings or styles of art had inspired the look of the films, the costumes and so forth. PJ of course mentioned the conceptual artists John Howe and (oops, memory just blanked), and he said it was decided early on that the Elves would have a sort of Art Deco look to their culture. He felt, PJ said, that the Elves had probably invented Art Deco during their time in Middle Earth, and that we had merely rediscovered it in the 20s (appreciative laughter).

Did he really say Art Deco?? That surprises me. Art Nouveau, surely...all those flowy lines and sinuous motifs and tree/flower/flowing hair designs...:confused:
Art Deco is later, very angular and spare, no frills or curves...think New York's Chrysler Building as opposed to a Tiffany lampshade...

Lady Wendy

01-12-2004, 02:26 PM

Blossom,
I'm intrigued with your revelation about Frodo's whisper to Sam at the Grey Havens...
I've only seen this marvellous movie once, believe it or not, and I'm dying to see it again...( not until January 24th, I'm afraid )
and when I do, I will listen VERY CAREFULLY INDEED !!!
You don't live anywhere near Ealing in London, do you, by any chance ?...( I would love to watch ROTK with someone as mad about Frodo as me !!! )

OK,
I feel a rant coming on..:eek: :eek: :eek:
( With apologies to Honeyelf, who has probably seen this little episode of mine elsewhere...)

Well, I have just watched the interview with Our Lij that was screened on CNN last night here..this was the very disappointingly brief appearance he made on the Jon Stewart show...I was expecting a half hour interview and my video clocked it at exactly SIX, yes six minutes, count 'em, ROTK clip included !!!...hardly worth having him on, was it ? I do believe I made the same complaint about the Jay Leno interview not so long ago too...what is it with US TV ? Do they think that all you viewers will get bored with someone after ten minutes max, or what ?...I have watched a lot of US TV in my time, either in the US itself, or in Canada, ( as you may or not know, my husband is Canadian-born of British parents, who still live there, so we get to visit quite frequently ) and I have to say that I get the same impression every time...

1)SOOOOO many bloody adverts !!!
2)Everyone shouts ..
3)They believe that no-one in America has an attention span longer than your average goldfish !!!...

What ARE they afraid of ?

Hands up who would LOVE, just for once, to watch a really good in-depth interview with Elijah Wood, lasting, ooh say, about an hour, with NO ADS ( Hurray for the BBC )plenty of clips and really good intelligent questions, that really make Elijah think and show off that intelligent brain we all know he has, lurking there somewhere ...Sort of like "The Actor's Studio " but better...the presenter of that one's SOOO po-faced and pseudo-intellectual..he doesn't fool me you know !!!

Anyway, having had my rant about the dreadful standards of US TV, ( pardon me, I don't mean to be rude, but really !!! ) the interview was actually quite amusing, brief though it was...

JON "You're coming on here to promote the movie, of course...We're hoping to give it a little bump, I know things have been rough lately..."

ELIJAH "It needs a little help..."

And later on...
JON "This is a little film that really CAN !!...."

And the thing about someone, somewhere in Hollywood just dying to make LOTR 4...

"Get me Tolkien on the PHONE !!!..."

Yes, for such a short interview, it did have its moments...

The subject of Elijah starting his own record label came up as a future project he was very interested in....this is absolutely amazing because only a few months ago, I was amusing myself, as you do, with forecasting where EJW would possibly go, in terms of his career, in the future...
And the conclusion I came to was this...

1) He would probably go the same way as Johnny Depp as far as picking roles he was interested in doing...as opposed to doing roles just for the money, publicity, or advancement of career aspect...

2)He would very probably invest a lot of money from LOTR in starting a record label, giving a lot of the bands he sees in various clubs a leg up with their careers...I thought of this because of his very great and well-publicised love of all kinds of music, to the point of being obsessive about it, so it wouldn't be a very surprising step for him, I think...

So to say I was unsurprised with this revelation of his would be an understatement, to say the least...
Good Luck to him in his venture,I say...

I'll be watching "The Ice Storm" next Saturday, I expect...perhaps that will have slightly more than six minutes of Elijah-goodness in it...
Steelsheen,
Did he really say Art Deco?? That surprises me. Art Nouveau, surely...all those flowy lines and sinuous motifs and tree/flower/flowing hair designs...

Yes, you're absolutely correct....Rivendell is without doubt, the most Art-Nouveau set I've seen in a long time...beautiful !!!:

hobbityme

01-12-2004, 05:17 PM

Moving away from the LOTR tangent...

So, what have I been doing all morning?

Reading Charlie Kaufman's first draft of "Eternal Sunshine of a Spotless Mind." What provoked me to do this? One of two things: Elijah Wood and a conversation with a friend who I haven't spoken to in ages who watched a special pre-screening of it in NY.

Having read the screenplay and from my friend's comments, Elijah really departs from the typical "geeky guy who pines for girls" to "creepy guy who pines for girls."

I'm saying this after finally having watched All I Want this weekend (which was a nice little movie btw.) where he plays the nerdy, introverted Jones.

In ESoSM, he plays Patrick who basically involves himself in the unethical "reproduction" of actions that Jim Carrey's character, Joel, actually does to win over Kate Winslet's Clementine.

It's a supporting part but a good one at that. Something that Elijah could definitely chew on. Based on my friend's opinion, Elijah was a standout because he played creepy and pathetic to perfection. He tells me it's not the usual thing you see out of him (he's seen several of his movies) and he thinks that it will definitely get some attention from the critics. His words were something like "he's pathetic and slimy but weirdly, you can't help but feel sorry for him because you know people like that who don't mean to do bad but just can't help themselves."

I LOVE the screenplay by the way. It's fresh, inventive and well, it's Kaufman.

I'm extremely excited for this movie to come out. Not only will I get my Elijah fix, but it's gonna be a wacky ride.

shadowcatshadow

01-12-2004, 05:36 PM

Actually, I think of Frodo and Sam as BROTHERS. The "I love You." indicates that Frodo understands that:

1. He isn't alone.

2. He understands that he needs Sam.

3. Sam isn't going to leave Him.

4. It's okay to Cry. (this is why Frodo is different from the other so called He Man characters.:cool: :D He IS a Real He Man character. :D )

5. It is also okay for two guys to Express Love, and NOT be considered HOMOS. (why don't Shakespeare's Prince Hal and Falstaff have this PROBLEM? :confused: )

Maeglian

01-12-2004, 06:46 PM

Thank you to Flourish and Ariel for the Lincoln Center event write-ups. They make for the most interesting of reading! :)

Blossom, I've seen the film a number of times now but I've never heard that whisper...... :eek: Will keep my ears sharpened next time! However, if it's there, it isn't "officially" there (i.e. it's not in the script that is handed out by New Line when other language's subtitling is prepared.)

Nevertheless, I've been certain from the first time that Frodo *is* indeed whispering *something* - the way his eyes turn towards Sam, and not least the way Sam changes his facial expression from devastation to more composed attention while he's still hugging Frodo indicate that to me. And their hug certainly lasts long enough for something to be whispered. I'd figured it would be something like "You may follow me when it's time - but not for many years yet" - as a precursor to Frodo's voice-over when Sam returns home (" You cannot always be torn in two....")
But "I love you!" is lovely, lovely, lovely! :)

Oh, and thank you so much for the Minas Morgul gif. No other angst compares to Frodo angst. :o

Honey, sorry your excellent letter didn't make it into the paper....... Too bad! :( It could have opened an eye or two.

Steelsheen, great to see you posting here.
Yes, the style of the elves is definitely Art Nouveau. One of my favourite artstyles, that, - the flowing curved lines and the slender and varied flower- stem- and leaf imagery in all; and the ladies with the flowing hair..... Frodo's bedroom in Rivendell made me almost forget Frodo himself for a moment to ogle the furnishings with amazed admiration and glee. Certainly his bed there and the lady carved on it is as Art Nouveau as they come! :o

Belated very happy birthday to you, Viola! :)

Oh, I bought the January issue of SFX magazine, which has an interview with EJW. They ask him what he thinks of his (quote)"followers' fervent hobbit-worshipping". He explains that he's being stopped quite a lot by fans, but continues that he can understand that because he's a fan himself, and says: "If I saw Frodo walking around I'd get pretty excited too!" :cool: Now how can one *not* love him saying something like that? :)

Flourish

01-12-2004, 06:49 PM

Steelsheen you are of course absolutely right--I meant Art Nouveau.:o May I plead lingering fatigue from the weekend?

*goes away to rip up art history degree and hide*

Well, it was getting old anyway....... :rolleyes:

EDIT: I have a picture from the Lincoln Center event!--I'll try to figure out how to share it with you. Meanwhile, my thanks to whoever mentioned my "next time" meeting Elijah Wood, but I have never met him at all--somebody else said that.

Steelsheen

01-12-2004, 07:15 PM

Oh, Flourish, that's a relief! :D You being fatigued from the weekend's excitement I can totally understand! (Talked to Ezzie before she left NY for home...we had a great time at my house, with Linthilde and Malindorie)
PJ being in error, now that's a little bit harder!!! ;)

I luuuuuuuv Art Nouveau, it's my last favorite artistic movement, everything since has been absolute rubbish...and we're not the only ones who think the Elves invented it...an author friend of mine who wrote two mystery novels with Earth elves (not very nice, more like the TRUE Sidhe) as protagonists also attributed Art Nouveau as an Elvish invention...makes perfect sense to me!!!

Yes, I've been lurking in the thread for a while...nothing really to say yet, but I'm sure I'll find something...

EDIT: Oh, for starters, what the heck are crebain? And why are they called that? And why is a single one plural??? :confused:

Bridget Chubb

01-12-2004, 10:02 PM

Originally posted by Flourish
Meanwhile, my thanks to whoever mentioned my "next time" meeting Elijah Wood, but I have never met him at all--somebody else said that.

That was me.:o I meant shireling, of course. Time for me to go hide.:o

erendis

01-12-2004, 10:45 PM

Bloosom, I wonder if that line that Frodo says to Sam was ever in the script? What if Elijah was just saying that to Sean on camera? This could be one instance where Elijah felt so much for Sean that Elijah could stop acting, yet still be in character.

ainon

01-13-2004, 03:42 AM

Hello Steelsheen! Wonderful of you to delurk with us! Welcome! :D

Hobbityme - thanks for sharing your impressions of the ESotM script! I downloaded that too last year, but after flipping through to find out how many pages EW appears in ;) I stored the script away. Reckon I should remain spoiler-free. But maybe I should go ahead and read it after all.

Blossom - awwwww! I wish I could help but you don't want to trust the kind of subtitles pirates come up with.

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/migo.jpg

No, I am NOT sharing any of the really worse ones!

Not that our legit ones are any better. According to our theatrical translation, Sauron is a forgerer*. Really. That's why he's so so Evil. Forgerer. Rhymes with murderer. Y'know. Baaaaaad.

*literal = Sauron forged the One Ring ...

But I'm digressing. :o Since I'm just no help I'll spend time sighing angstfully instead. ((((Blossom)))))

Lucky Sean Astin to be staring into those eyes (http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/biru/?action=view&current=havensfs.jpg&slideshow=true&interval=3&sort=descending) day after day after day .... I wish my crebain were as pretty as yours, Blossom. Well, crappy quality notwithstanding, I did get a cap of a complete blink! ;)

Anyway, Grumpy, was Sean Astin saying all that right in front of Elijah? What'd the boy do as he listened to all that? :D

Originally posted by BLOSSOM
Ainon, I started to make screencaps for a gif of Frodo and Sam's GH hug, but a visitor turned up unexpetedly, so I had to leave it. I'm in Cornwall all day tomorrow, so I will get it done as soon as possible. Watch this space.

I will, I will, I will, I will! :k Okay, so no trouts, no anchovies ... tell me you love bananas. Because we have banana desserts aplenty. You haven't lived till you've had crispy hot banana fritters, I'll tell you that. :D

shadowcatshadow

01-13-2004, 03:42 AM

Was that Elijah's real Falsetto voice that broke the kid's glasses on SNL? I peeded in my pants because I was laughing so hard when that happened. :D

zkgrumpy

01-13-2004, 09:22 AM

Re: "I love you"

I don't think it's homoerotic (assuming it's really there). I think it's a tremendous bond between those two guys who have been through hell and back, survived, and need to move on. It's a wartime bond forged in combat. We saw it in the look that they exchanged when Sam stood in the doorway after Frodo woke up.

Lucky Sean Astin to be staring into those eyes (http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/biru/?action=view&current=havensfs.jpg&slideshow=true&interval=3&sort=descending) day after day after day ....

Anyway, Grumpy, was Sean Astin saying all that right in front of Elijah? What'd the boy do as he listened to all that? :D

Oh, he did the expected - shuffled, "aw, shucks", looked off to the side, giggled, looked like he wanted to crawl under his chair, then finally pulled his bottom eyelids down so the red part showed and hammed.

I'll look at the original Primetime 'Lij tape and see if it's there and see if I can be a little more specific.

~grumpy (back at work)(they said I had to come in; they didn't say I had to sit up straight)(having plague of frogs)(Water heater gave out)

ainon

01-13-2004, 09:38 AM

very quick post to post Flourish's pic! :cool:

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/Flourishsbigday.JPG

p.s. Thanks, Grumpy. :) But dang. They made you go to work? :( Well, be darned with 'em. :p Hope you feel better soon! (((((Grumpy)))))

Flourish

01-13-2004, 09:56 AM

Ainon! :k :D You ROCK! Thank you so much!

Hope you all enjoy the view. ;)

hobbityme

01-13-2004, 10:53 AM

Ainon, the script is awesome. But from what I've heard from my friend, Patrick is much more fleshed out in the final draft which is what is translated onscreen.

Originally posted by ainon
Anyway, Grumpy, was Sean Astin saying all that right in front of Elijah? What'd the boy do as he listened to all that? :D

Aside from pulling his lids up, he also gave Sean a big hug. It was really cute. He looked really bashful.

I guess this is a little bit off topic.

"One obstacle for New Line is that the majority of successful best picture contenders have built additional momentum with nominees in the lead acting categories. However, while the distrib is running a lead actor campaign for Elijah Wood (news), " Return of the King " is very much an ensemble piece, and more likely to figure in the supporting ranks, where Ian McKellen (news), Sean Astin (news), Viggo Mortensen (news) and Miranda Otto (news) are being pushed."

[ur'l]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040106/va_sp_ev/not_of_this_earth_1[/url]

I have already settled into the idea that Elijah's performance (no matter how much I feel it's the best of the year) will not be nominated. It's soooooo frustrating because I have seen all the other best actor contenders and I think Elijah does rank up there with the best of the best. I guess I have always been inclined towards those really internal, subtle performances but it's just so unsettling to see such a powerful performance get so overlooked like this. I guess it also has something to do with his young age but that shouldn't be a factor. That's what makes me so mad when Sean Astin gets a lot of recognition (which is deserved) and Elijah Wood so little because his role is not as flashy or does not contain any of that industrial strength angst (the Sam kind) that the Academy just LOVES.

Oh well, I guess I'll just wait it out... he'll get it one day for sure.
If Tom Cruise gets nominated I will seriously blow my head off... he was NOWHERE in the vicinity of Elijah's performance.

So unfair.

Hee hee, continuing my yahoo news surfing I came across this:

Snippet:
Johansson isn't the only one with jet lag. Within two weeks, Peter Jackson (news) and "The Lord of the Rings" actors traveled from New Zealand to L.A., London, Berlin, Paris and Denmark and then New York.

"I had strep throat when I was in New York, and then we flew to Toronto and I got rid of my strep throat, but then it replaced itself with a cold," says "Lord of the Rings" star Elijah Wood (news). "And then it manifested itself as the flu by the time I got to New Zealand. So I had the flu in New Zealand, which was definitely a bummer, especially since I so badly wanted to be healthy so I could enjoy the celebration."

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/variety/20040112/va_sp_ev/the_fast_and_the_serious_1

Sorry for all the consecutive posts. Did I mention I love this thread?!

Alyon

01-13-2004, 12:07 PM

Hobbityme:

Thanks for all the nice posts and info. Good to have you here!!

Interesting comments about ESoSM. Sounds very interesting, though I'd rather see him play someone who isn't pathetic and pining for girls. But that can be done many ways. Whiny or strong. Wormtongue, anyone?? Brad was great. Looking forward to seeing it.

The Oscar stuff kills me--but maybe this will be one of those performances people look back on in years to come and will say "and he didn't win the Oscar, Tom Cruise did. Can you believe it?" Remember, the Beatles didn't win but two (pretty sure it was two) Grammys during their time, either.

Ainon!! Thank you thank you for the pic. It's terrific!!

Okay--a backwards question. Did anyone else think Frodo should have lost his WHOLE finger??? Boy does alyon want the angst ratcheted up again?? Yeah, the whole finger...

erendis

01-13-2004, 01:15 PM

Quick Q on the continuing saga of I Love You: Blossom, is your crebain a Oscar-type DVD or is it somebody with a video camera in the theatre? Do you hear coughing and stuff in the background? Right now, that line is three possibilities: Frodo really did say that to Sam -- unlikely, or else it would have been louder, or it would have been subtitled. Elijah took the opportunity to say this to Sean -- more likely, and (for me) even more emotional. The line was really spoken by some nitwit in the audience making a gay joke and it wound up on the crebain. :rolleyes:I'm just tyring to work this out..

Viola Took

01-13-2004, 02:57 PM

Just delurking quickly to thank blossom, whiteling, peaceweaver, TG, and ainon for their birthday wishes. I will not reveal my age...being slightly miffed at a young niece (my namesake) who kept reminding me of my age for the entire day !! -actually for her anyone over the age of 10 must be ancient -haha

Nice to know that ainon has finally worked out that I am not Prim's twin :eek: :D :D (you are not allowed to aim a trout at my head as I still consider it my birthday and therefore declare an amnesty on trouts)

I still don't have a lot to say about EW's performance in ROTK. I am still overwhelmed by the whole thing. Prim (we watched it together twice in nz before I returned a couple of days ago) was upset because her first impressions were that they failed to show Frodo's strengths as well as his weakness, and allowed Sam to shine as the "hero" in ROTK. On the first viewing I agreed, then on the second I watched EW more carefully and decided that there was more subtlety in his acting, mostly in terms of his facial expressions rather than what he said, which made him less the weaker character of the two than at first appearance. The grim determination to climb mount doom clinched it for me.
Must admit too, that despite knowing the book, the look on his face when finally faced with throwing the ring into the lava, I really wondered if he would also throw himself off the ledge...very convincing!

viola

p.s finally got to see one of the Air NZ planes with LOTR painted on the side, not unfortunately the one I was travelling on, but on the tarmac at Auckland international airport...I took a photo as proof ! :D (mind you it was so far away its a good thing its digital and I can enlarge it :D :D ;)

Flourish

01-13-2004, 03:02 PM

Hobbityme, did you mean, what was Elijah doing in the photo Ainon posted for me? He was just holding a cordless mike, like the other actors. I forgot to mention that Andy had a tiny videocamera and he was filming the audience with it. :D

Bridget Chubb

01-13-2004, 03:10 PM

Hobbityme, rather than making consecutive posts, you can edit your original posts.:) There's an "edit" button on the bottom right-hand side of every post, next to the "quote" button. I've already merged together your last posts here, but in the future please use the edit button. Thank you!:)

Prim

01-13-2004, 03:42 PM

Hmmm. I very much doubt there's an "I love you" whisper there at the Havens. Remember almost all the sound was looped so the actors had to do all the dialogue again and then the sound specialists added all the extra sounds etc etc. I think if PJ had wanted a line like this he would have made it more intelligible.

If it was an EW to Astin aside it would have been removed. Jackson is not nearly as easygoing as he seems. He's a hairsplitting perfectionist IMO: he would not cast a blind eye to an unauthorised aside. And since they scrutinise the sound so carefully (adding even things like the faint sound of cloth moving on cloth :yes...I've just-finally- watched the more specialist EE TTT commentaries ;) )I don't see how it could have been missed.

I think the line is out of character somehow too. Though I'm not sure why.

I just read on TORC that Astin was not happy with the cut of "If I can't carry it then I can carry you.." (paraphrased: I can't remember the wording) . He thought it was his best line but a poor take. Some Astin bashing followed, I'll spare you, but someone did add the thought that if Astin is right then perhaps Jackson chose the one we get to see because he didn't want EW too overshadowed.Since I think Astin does indeed overshadow EW in most scenes of RoTK I thought that was interesting.
(If you read Viola's comments then you'll have noticed I'm not that happy with Frodo in RoTK though hasten to add I suspect the problem is a directorial one rather than EW's acting. I seem to be the exact opposite of Pearl come to think of it :rolleyes: ).

Maeglian

01-13-2004, 03:56 PM

Flourish and ainon, you make a great team when it comes to bringing pictures to the news-starved masses! :) The four of them are colour-coordinated! (In nice contrast to what PJ was wearing, looming over them on that big screen in other pics I've seen.... :D ) And the CTJ seems to be infectious! :eek: :cool: Elijah's wearing something else for once, but Andy is sporting his very own CTJ look-alike!

I'm almost ready to cancel appointments and free enough time to get myself back to a cinema and watch and listen out for the "I love you". (Although I agree with Prim, it's either officially there or not at all -and I've not heard it, nor seen it in subtitles, during any number of viewings.... :( ) Actually, I liked Erendis' possibility #3 very much ("The line was really spoken by some nitwit in the audience making a gay joke...." ) Oh, of course I'd love it for Frodo to actually *say* this to Sam, but think about it: [totally sappy mode] Such is the true magic of this movie that even intended mockery is turned into pure truth and beauty and enhances the experience! :cool: [/totally sappy mode]

From Alyon
Did anyone else think Frodo should have lost his WHOLE finger? Yes, I thought so, but not for the angst value! That gory stump, spurting blood profusely, was enough realistic-looking angst and pain for me **shudders***
BUT it irks my sense of logic: Frodo puts the very large Ring on his relatively small finger; - and yet the part of the finger that Gollum tosses away seems to be fixed within the Ring. Now, we do know that the Ring adapts its size based on its own mood and to fit the wearer, but nevertheless; - did it really decide to go into massive shrinking mode to fit snugly onto the middle section of Frodo's finger?

***Maeg decides to try something else than extreme nitpicking..... *** :o

ainon, that little slide show of the impact of the Grey Haven Eyes could prove utterly addictive to anyone exposed to several consequtive rounds of it. I managed to quit just in time..... ;)

hobbityme

01-13-2004, 04:19 PM

Thanks Bridget Chubb! I'll remember it for next time.

Flourish, I was answering to a question but what picture is this that you speak of?

Prim, I don't know. You also could take it this way: Sean Astin believed to have said the line more powerfully or felt more powerfully about the way he delivered it. It's really subjective. I think that the only reason why people might think that Astin overshadows Elijah is because he has the "in your face" scenes that it's impossible not to be the center on screen. Actually, I think that this scene is kind of over-acted on Astin's part. I especially did not like that way he threw Frodo over his shoulder like kitty litter. Definitely did nothing for me. But perhaps I'm biased because of the way I pictured it in the book.

But a trend I'm seeing here with some fellow Tolkienites. While Astin is good upfront the first time, Elijah's performance becomes more jarringly good with repeated viewings. He really was the standout for me... hence me looking for message boards to talk about his performance... hence me ending up here.

Astin bashing you say? We'll see about that! Where did you say this was?

wood

01-13-2004, 11:47 PM

hi!!
i dont now if its just me but i cant finde enywere something
about EW performance except from here.Is it just us who
can see his outstanding performance in this last movie?
:confused: :confused: :confused:

BLOSSOM

01-14-2004, 02:53 AM

Welcome to The Faculty Lounge, Steelsheen. Nice to see you here.

Originally posted by Grumpy:
Re: "I love you"
I don't think it's homoerotic (assuming it's really there). I think it's a tremendous bond between those two guys who have been through hell and back, survived, and need to move on. It's a wartime bond forged in combat. We saw it in the look that they exchanged when Sam stood in the doorway after Frodo woke up.
______________________________________

No, Grumpy - it's not homoerotic at all. Your quote says it perfectly. It comes across to me exactly the same way.

Originally quoted by Prim:
Hmmm. I very much doubt there's an "I love you" whisper there at the Havens. Remember almost all the sound was looped so the actors had to do all the dialogue again and then the sound specialists added all the extra sounds etc etc. I think if PJ had wanted a line like this he would have made it more intelligible.

If it was an EW to Astin aside it would have been removed. Jackson is not nearly as easygoing as he seems. He's a hairsplitting perfectionist IMO: he would not cast a blind eye to an unauthorised aside. And since they scrutinise the sound so carefully (adding even things like the faint sound of cloth moving on cloth :yes...I've just-finally- watched the more specialist EE TTT commentaries )I don't see how it could have been missed.
____________________________________

I totally agree with your points there, Prim. I really cannot explain it.

With the majority of people doubting it's there at all I'm now feeling less than confident in my own ears - not to mention my mind! But hubby heard it too. Of course if none of you have heard it it's understandable if you all think I have lost my mind!

Erendis - I'm not entirely sure I know what an Oscar DVD is. But my crebain was handed to me as a surprise on Christmas Day by a family member - and, although I stress again that the sound is atrocious, you cannot hear any audience coughing etc. How I heard this whisper on such a poor soundtrack I don't know. I can't explain it, but I heard it. The 'I love you,' is spoken incredibly softly, and I can understand how it could go unnoticed. But after repeated backtracking and listening again and again - I'm sure in my own mind that it's there, and that it's Elijah's beautiful Frodo voice - it's just too meaningful and subtle to be an audience 'gay joke' - doesn't sound like that at all, - it sounds incredibly heartfelt and it just really affected me emotionally. I'm sorry if you all think I've gone nuts.:eek:

There's only one thing for it:
I think you should all come around to my house and we'll have a concentrated listening session with the sound turned up to full volume!:)

I'm going to be devastated if it ever comes out officially that this line ISN'T there, and never WAS there, and was never INTENDED to be there. I'll feel such a fool!:o

Lady Wendy. Sorry, I don't live anywhere near Ealing. I live in the West Midlands, otherwise I'd love to watch ROTK with you. I've never had the LOTR experience with another Frodo-centric either, and it would be lovely. We could discuss Frodo and Elijah for hours, and hours...

Originally quoted by Hobbityme:
But a trend I'm seeing here with some fellow Tolkienites. While Astin is good upfront the first time, Elijah's performance becomes more jarringly good with repeated viewings. He really was the standout for me... hence me looking for message boards to talk about his performance... hence me ending up here.
______________________________________

Same here, Hobbityme. Although Elijah grabbed my undying attention the first time I saw FOTR, his performance impacts even more with multiple viewings. His Frodo is awesome.
ESOTSM sounds interesting. I remember reading a review somewhere a few months ago by some critic who had seen a special screening of the film, who said that Elijah's character stood out as being 'creepily pathetic' - IIRC. I say good for him. He's trying new things, expanding his range, and hopefully people will notice him and appreciate him for this.

wood - There must be other places where Elijah appreciation is shared. I don't know - but I'd guess there's nowhere quite like The Faculty Lounge!

ainon - I LOVE bananas!:)

Great posts, and lovely pics, ladies. Hobmom - Flourish - ainon - Thanks.:)

Random

01-14-2004, 06:59 AM

Hi Faculty!

I think this may be my first post at the Faculty, which seems mad seeing as I lurk almost everyday!

Anyway the discussion about the I love you reminded me of one that took place amongst x-files fans when the X-files movie came out. Right at the end (er, spoilers follow, if youre interested!) Mulder has rescued Scully from the weird alien Artic thingy. This massive alien ship passes overhead and Mulder sees it but Scully seems to have passed out and missed the whole thing, which is a shame as it would be inconvertible proof etc. Anyway (there is a point to this post, I promise!) some fans said they thought they could pick out Scully saying I saw it! I saw it!. And when you listened to the scene again, you could definitely hear it.

This doesnt help much because I dont know whether it was officially corroborated, but just thought I would use it as an example where there has been a very quiet piece of dialogue that has been noticed!

BTW, I am so looking forward to Eternal Sunshine. The trailer is lovely. Not enough EW of course. :D

tgshaw

01-14-2004, 07:57 AM

Still nothing new to offer (but that doesn't mean I can't find something to say ;) ), but thanks to Flourish and Ariel for Lincoln Center reports, and to everyone who's posted news, pics, and other good stuff :) --including the info on ESOTSM. I'm glad EW's next movie is one I'm actually looking forward to seeing for other reasons, too! A Kaufman script can't hurt.

Originally posted by hobbityme
...However, while the distrib is running a lead actor campaign for Elijah Wood (news), " Return of the King " is very much an ensemble piece, and more likely to figure in the supporting ranks, where Ian McKellen (news), Sean Astin (news), Viggo Mortensen (news) and Miranda Otto (news) are being pushed."

Oh well, I guess I'll just wait it out... he'll get it one day for sure...
I've said before--and my emotions still say--that I'd rather have Elijah not get nominated for Frodo at all than to get a supporting nomination. IMHO, the fact that the studio's pushing him as a lead says that they understand the role (v-e-r-r-y interesting that they've dropped Viggo to supporting; IMHO, the roles are about equal in the movie, so maybe says something about the acting...?). If Elijah's not nominated at all and Sean and/or other(s) are nominated for supporting, I think that "supporting" keeps things in perspective.

Yes, one day for sure. The Academy always seems to be playing catch-up, giving out awards to people who should have gotten them the year before... :rolleyes:

But I think the quote is right in saying this is an "ensemble piece"--and it should be. Tolkien wrote the book in such a way that for 50 years readers have been... uh... discussing ;) who the main character is. Now, if the movie as a whole doesn't walk off with some major awards there's something wrong. Yeah, a fantasy's never won Best Picture or Best Director, but that just means it's about time--and if LotR done this well can't break that rule I don't know what could!

If Tom Cruise gets nominated I will seriously blow my head off... he was NOWHERE in the vicinity of Elijah's performance.
Oh, not seriously, I hope :eek: . We'll need you around to kvetch and scream and write indignant letters with the rest of us ;) .

"I had strep throat when I was in New York, and then we flew to Toronto and I got rid of my strep throat, but then it replaced itself with a cold," says "Lord of the Rings" star Elijah Wood (news). "And then it manifested itself as the flu by the time I got to New Zealand. So I had the flu in New Zealand, which was definitely a bummer, especially since I so badly wanted to be healthy so I could enjoy the celebration."
See, we knew they were working the poor kid too hard. Completely screwed up his immune system--strep throat, FES! Give him some rest, already.

On the "I love you" question: I doubt, too, that it's in the actual movie--for the reasons already given, as well as the fact that (unless that particular snippit was reshot later on) the Grey Havens was one of the first parts of the movies to be filmed, so the actors would hardly be in farewell mode. But, Blossom, that doesn't mean I disbelieve what you're hearing--who knows what can turn up on a crebain! Especially this year, with the Academy not letting the studios send DVDs to the voters anymore, it's hard to tell where they're coming from. You may just have a collector's item there.

Originally posted by ainon
...but you don't want to trust the kind of subtitles pirates come up with. No, I am NOT sharing any of the really worse ones!
Awww.... P-l-e-a-s-e?? ;) Maybe we need a thread in the Trilogy forum for those again.

Oroginally posted by hobbityme
I especially did not like that way he threw Frodo over his shoulder like kitty litter. Definitely did nothing for me. But perhaps I'm biased because of the way I pictured it in the book.
Maybe he thought it was the safest way :) . IIRC, while Sean was talking about the difference between his and Elijah's attitude toward "safety on the set," Sean said that probably the most dangerous thing Elijah did during the entire filming was letting him (Sean) carry him up the rocky slope of an active volcano wearing those slippery hobbit feet. (And there are a couple of times during it that I hold my breath!)

Originally posted by Random
I think this may be my first post at the Faculty, which seems mad seeing as I lurk almost everyday!
Well, then, by all means come in and grab a seat and stay sane with the rest of us :p :p !

Glad to see Steelsheen delurk (and I see the crebain question got answered in the Trilogy :) )--and "Hi" to anyone I may have missed saying it to.

----------

And just one thing I mentioned in the "little things I liked" thread that should be added here: While Frodo and Sam are standing, looking out over the Plains of Gorgoroth, we see that effective eyebrow acting (not to mention eye acting) can be done even from beneath an orc helmet :) .

ainon

01-14-2004, 09:15 AM

Hiya Random! Welcome. I was an XF fan. I remember those XF days of everything having to have some significance worthy of conspiracy. :D

(((Viola))) Aww shucks. Vacation over, old dear? :o ;)

Hobbityme, thanks for the links! The Sean Astin quote is from Time.com (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1101040119-574886-2,00.html)

Blossom, your RotK crebain - it wouldn't happen to be blocked by a black patch at the bottom portion of the screen, would it? With the screen at an odd slight angle? Like this:

http://www.villagephotos.com/viewimage.asp?id_=7611779

If so, then the origin is the same. The black patch blocks the theatrical subtitles. In which case the same crebain must have flown far and wide. I don't know if that means I should be proud, or if I should crawl somewhere and hide. :rolleyes: Sound quality isn't half bad and the audience - if present at all - was obediently quiet. I did try listening to it last night on my computer, and you're right, there *is* something. Could be a whisper. :)

tg, I'm gonna ignore you. :p :D But I think it is a consolation and an improvement that this year, the swashbuckling pirate subtitler had decided to name Gollum 'Smigel'.

Ending this post with a

GOOD LUCK to Alyon's Daughter in Sundance!

And remember - if you meet any hobbits, BRING THEM HERE! ;)

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11770.JPG

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/3401.jpg

Steelsheen

01-14-2004, 09:21 AM

Thanks, Faculty members, for all the nice greetings! :k It's a fine thread, to be sure...especially since certain other ones make me run away screaming like a little girl! :eek: ;)

Moondancer

01-14-2004, 09:38 AM

First post so ...please be patient with me.
[I have a tendency to ramble a bit....I hope not to bore you too much ;) ]

I discovered the LOTR books in my library. It had a hard cover with nothing on it (typical in those days for my library), so it had no comment on the back, no picture. I noticed the book because it was such a huge book, filled with elves, dwarves, wizzards, trolls and weird creatures like orcs, hobbits,...
I was intrigrued by it all so I took it home and....loved every page of it. Never before was I so captivated by a book, really stepping out of my world and stepping into middle earth. I especially loved the elves and the relationship between Sam and Frodo.
But when I first read the book, I didn't know that it was such a legendary book (I found that out a couple of years ago, when a friend of mine was reading the book and I told him how much I loved it...He told me about the legendary status and he was surprised that a women liked that book so much - he thought that it was more a guy book:rolleyes: )

When I heard about the movies, I ignored it at first because I thought (as many did) that it was simply impossible to do. The first rumour I heard was that they were thinking of Sean Connery as Gandalf and I hated that idea (good that that rumour was dismissed quite quickly).
When did I start to be interested in it?
When I heard that Elijah Wood was going to be Frodo.
The first time I noticed Elijah was in Forever Young. Well....I was fascinated from the first moment I saw him.
Since then, I saw Radio Flyer, Paradise, The Good Son, The War, The Adventures of Huck Finn, North, Deep Impact, The Faculty, The Ice Storm....oh yes, Flipper too. :D (my 3 year old Godson loves that movie and I discoved by accident that my sister (his mum) has a bit of a crush on Elijah. She was watching it with her son and she kept commenting what an adorable kid Elijah was - I don't see her blush that often)
My fascination with that young actor has never gone away.
I was surprised that he was going to be Frodo but....I just knew that he would be perfect for it.

I only discovered this forum a couple of days ago. I had a look now and again at some reviews but mostly, I stayed away from the LOTR sites.
You see, I wanted to view this trilogy with my own eyes. I didn't want to read too many opinions of others, especially the Tolkien fanatics who like to nitpick at everything.
So, having seen the trilogy...I'm now ready for the many opinions and forums and I started to search the net and...oh lord, where to start.:eek: :eek: :eek:
I stumbled on this forum by accident and ...er...I don't know where to start.
So, I decided to start in The Faculty, mainly because Elijah Wood is such a brilliant, fantastic, amazing Frodo. I'm very grateful to him for his performance. I will probably never have the chance to meet him (I live in Belgium) but if I do, I'd simply like to thank him for giving us such a beautiful Frodo (not only physically pretty;) )

I don't think he's going to get an Oscar for it or even a nomination, because:
*he's perhaps a bit too young to be nominated for male lead (not my view...age is irrelevant for me)
* typical Hollywood male leads who get nominated for the Oscars in the male lead category are mainly two types. 1) Dustin Hoffman in Rainman, Sean Penn in I am Sam, Daniel Day Lewis in My Left Foot (you know...the diseases, handicaps,...and this is not a criticism to those kind of roles or those 3 actors, because they're brilliant) and 2) the heroes, the problem solvers,...like Russell Crowe in The Gladiator, Mel Gibson in Braveheart (again: no criticism to those actors...I like Russell Crowe, the actor, a lot)
Elijah Wood's Frodo does not fall into those categories.
* Frodo kind of fails in the end. Frodo is taken over by the power of the ring. He wants to keep the ring. It's only because of the struggle with Gollum that the ring ends up being destroyed. I feel that Hollywood is very reluctant to give an award for portraying a characters who fails (...although, in my mind this is *censored* because Frodo is still a hero as far as I'm concerned. I just think that it's not Hollywood's idea of a hero)
* Elijah Wood's acting is so subtle that it does not seem like he's acting. It looks so natural and that's not only due to the amazing eyes but his entire body language is very subtle.

OK, I started to read this thread yesterday....and the progress through the pages is very, very slow. So much to take in. So many beautiful thoughts. So, I'm going back to the beginning of the thread now.
I just wanted to thank you guys for the lovely thread. It's an excellent thread without the 'fangirl' feel to it.

......:D Anybody still awake? I warned you about my ramblings.:)

Dangermouse

01-14-2004, 10:33 AM

Hi Moondancer! :k

I agree with everyone who's frustrated that EW's performance is not getting lauded enough. It's the most moving and subtle performance I've seen all year, which is why it's probably getting overlooked. There aren't any "oh, look, he's acting well" moments, because it doesn't seem as if EW is acting at all. In fact, there is no Elijah, just Frodo.

Pearl

01-14-2004, 10:57 AM

Welcome to KD, Moondancer. :)

Great first post ... and I think your comments on why you don't think our li'l Lij will not be nominated for an Oscar are extremely perceptive. I agree with you. EJW is a very talented young man and we all love his Frodo but I just don't think it's gonna happen.

Prim, I am sorry you were disappointed by ROTK Frodo. :o I am indeed the exact opposite. I was infuriated with some of the things PJ 'made' Film Frodo do in FOTR (or not do!) and I felt that in TTT Sam was being built up as a stronger kind of hero ... but Astin definitely didn't overshadow Wood in ROTK for me. No way. (And I dearly love Astin's Sam.) But in ROTK Elijah took Film Frodo to places where Film Frodo hadn't been before ... so although I was moved by all of Film Sam's stuff in ROTK, it was Film Frodo who dominated ROTK for me ...

perhaps because I was so pleasantly surprised. :) At last - at last!!! - PJ seemed to get 'my' Frodo right.

tgshaw

01-14-2004, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Moondancer
First post so ...please be patient with me.
[I have a tendency to ramble a bit....I hope not to bore you too much ;) ]
Welcome, Moondancer :) . What a lovely post! :cool: Thanks.

If you're really going back and reading all 218(?) pages of this thread, you'll soon learn that we don't have a problem with rambling--By that I don't mean that we don't ramble, but that we don't have a problem with it :p ! This is one place you don't have to apologize for running on and on... especially when saying such nice things about LotR and Elijah.

Originally posted by Pearl
At last - at last!!! - PJ seemed to get 'my' Frodo right.
YesYes! IMVHO, Frodo was one of several characters who finally became "who they were born to be" in RotK. Frodo being the most important among them, as well as the most brilliantly acted (in my extremely unbiased opinion ;) ).

Alyon

01-14-2004, 11:50 AM

((((Ainon)))) Thank you. Thank you. We leave shortly so this is probably my last post and my last chance to partake in such captivating reading for a couple of weeks. And it's a quick one.

Welcome to everybody new!! Seems an avalanche lately. It's wonderful.

Back to the finger. Yes all of that Maeglian--all the logic that doesn't work when only part of the finger is bitten off. You are right you are right. Ah... and what about this? However can there be songs about Nine-Fingered Frodo, when he definitely still has nine and a half??? Tell me that. I definitely want a song.

Unless I have time to sneak one in later--then this is it for awile. See you in two weeks!!
Alyon

hobbityme

01-14-2004, 11:58 AM

Blossom - well, the way said friend was talking about Elijah, it seems that he actually uses his eyes and face very much in this movie as well... except it's totally different the way he uses them, somehow to elevate his dialogue. (totally different facial expressions from the "soulful" look that Frodo has). As for him trying out his range... Hooligans I heard, is a very violent and dark movie so we'll see what happens there.

tgshaw - you know what, thinking it over in a few days, I think it would be somehow good, from a career perspective, for Elijah not to get nominated for an Oscar because it will allow other people not to attach him to closely to Frodo while not being able to see him as being able to act as anything else. I'm going to go for a Peter O'Toole scenario.

Moondancer - welcome!

ainon - thanks for the source. The article made for an interesting read.

Pearl - here, here!

Anyways, while I'm on the topic. Elijah might not win the Oscars or get nominated, but we sure can get him noticed by some moreonline polls I've come across. Some needs registration but it doesn't take that long.

So, without furthur adieu...

IMDB
http://imdb.com/features/rto/2004/poll/bestof2003

EMPIRE
http://www.empireonline.co.uk/awards2004/

AOL
http://www.moviefone.com/features/standAlone.adp?page=ama2003_vote_nominees

zkgrumpy

01-14-2004, 12:14 PM

some vague reactions etc...

Oscar: Alas, they're not going to award an Oscar to a young whippersnapper when Tom Cruise is nominated. J. Ron Hubbard would probably sue the Acade - er - never mind. :D

Besides, like someone said, the Academy doesn't like characters that go downhill throughout the movie. There wasn't any great epiphany and turnaround for Frodo; he went until his strength and eventually his will gave out, and never came all the way back.

"He ain't heavy, he's my brother":

Sam was force-feeding Frodo from CU on. On Mount Doom, Sam gave Frodo all of the water at the end, and forced him to eat the rest of their lembas. One of Sam's big inner debates was about the food and water. Sam finally resolved his own debate, leading to the sentence in the book: "His will was set, and only death would move it" (or something like that).

When Sam carried Frodo in the book, he carried him piggy-back. The fireman carry is a much safer and more realistic way to carry a person; I'm not surprised that they used it in the movie for safety and to spare Sean's back. Aragorn used it at Weathertop, too (movie). I think that scene resonates so strongly with me because Sam was also depleted, had suffered from bearing the Ring, even that short time, and had been depriving himself of water and food for days. Despite that, Sam's will, determination, and character increased throughout the story, while Frodo's strength lessened. Sam wouldn't have gotten that far without Frodo's calm, grim determination; when Frodo's strength failed, Sam was there to carry him. At Shelob's lair, in the book, when Sam was agonizing about whether to take the ring from (dead) Frodo and continue or to give up and go home, he argued that the task was appointed to Frodo. Then, the answer came that the Council had appointed companions so that the task would not fail.

I just can't see that difficulty with the two roles. They're not in conflict or contest. Frodo's strength declined from Weathertop on - possibly from Bree on. Sam's physical strength declined, but he was not as badly affected because he didn't carry the Ring. They are just two very different roles, played by two very different, very talented guys. The performances were just beyond belief.

The fact that the entire Faculty has fallen hopelessly and happily into those big blue eyes has nothing to do with it. :p

I just had a thought about that song, btw - didn't it come out in the 70's, when LotR was so popular in this country? There's a line: "It's a long road, from which there is no return...". That could be taken right out of the scene on Mt. Doom. I wonder....

This just in:

http://sfgate.com/columnists/dailydish/

ELIJAH KEEPS HIS CHARMS COVERED
"The Lord of the Rings" actor Elijah Wood is constantly pestered by fans trying to get into his underwear -- so they can see his Elvish tattoo.

The 22-year-old star and nine of his castmates on the trilogy got body art to commemorate the filming experience and their friendships -- but the sentimental design is causing him more problems than he'd anticipated.

A source says, "The problem is that Elijah's tattoo is near his hip, just below his waist.

"He thinks a lot of female fans know this and ask to see his tattoo just as a way to get him to flash his underwear.

"Guys are just as bad most of the time."

~grumpy

Flourish

01-14-2004, 12:26 PM

Grumpy, I know what you mean, of course, but the purist in me has to say this anyway--Frodo's physical strength declined throughout TTT and ROTK, through fatigue, deprivation, injury, fear, exposure, sleeplessness, and etc. But his moral strength and his will were actually strengthened by his struggle with the Ring the longer he went on (Tolkien's letters). Otherwise he could never have withstood the Ring as he did, right up until the Cracks of Doom where it at last achieved its indomitable strength and broke his will...

(the on-topic part follows;) )

...all of which Elijah portrays with breathtaking fidelity.

tgshaw

01-14-2004, 12:33 PM

In one of those weird things that happen sometimes when I'm posting in bits and pieces from work, the following started out as an edit of my last post, but then ended up with several posts in-between, so I made it a new one. In a way, it almost fits better here after grumpy's and Flourish's remarks...

Been thinking about the recent discussion regarding the more conventional type of "action hero" whom the audience likes and roots for but doesn't necessarily identify with vs. the "flawed" hero whom the audience identifies with on a more personal level. Sam's two "here I come to save the day" appearances in RotK--first to fight Shelob and then to rescue Frodo from the tower--come across to me as closer to the conventional type. I especially noticed that in both cases we see Sting before we actually see Sam (first time in the corner of the screen, second time with the blue blade coming through the orc), which struck me as the way "action heroes" are sometimes shown--the first one, especially, had me picturing Westerns when all we see on screen initially is the hero's gun and holster.

Not that this is necessarily a bad thing. I don't think either Frodo or Sam are conventional heroes in the book. But if PJ thought the audience would appreciate one in the movie, Sam was certainly the one to pick, as even in the book he's more "externally" directed than Frodo is, and doesn't have a sense of failure at the end. Details such as the shots of Sting that I mentioned make me think this was planned all along and doesn't result from Sean's acting (except by his playing the character the way the director wanted).

OTOH, the audience reactions a lot of people have reported during Frodo's time in Shelob's lair--and when she's stalking him afterward--IMVHO show the movie does a good job of presenting Frodo as the second kind of protagonist: one that the audience tends to identify with more personally, rather than cheering him on from the sidelines. That doesn't mean Frodo can't be strong, which I think he is in RotK, but we need to have more of a sense of what he has to deal with internally in order to be strong. And that's where Elijah's acting is at its best.

I do feel like this is starting to "ramble" a bit--guess what I'm trying to say is that IMHO PJ & Co. had these roles planned from the start, and chose the right actor for each of them.

Moondancer

01-14-2004, 01:25 PM

One of the reasons why I appreciate Elijah's performance is that Lij is not afraid to show doubts, weakness, fear,... How many young Hollywood actors would not try to bring in a touch of "macho", a bit of resistence in an effort to show to the public that he's not a "whimp". :rolleyes:

Somehow, in this society of ours, it's not allowed to show those kind of emotions without being called a loser,... That's especially the case for men.
(I love that line of Gandalf at the end of the movie - that he wasn't going to tell those hobbits not to cry because crying is not always a bad thing)

A typical Hollywood hero does not show that in the face of danger. Especially in the 80's, you could see a lot of those kind of heroes (Rambo for example).
I remember reading an interview with Russell Crowe, promoting The Gladiator. One of the things he really pushed for whilst playing Maximus was that he didn't want to portray that character as a typical macho hero. He said that a person, facing great danger and not feeling any fear is a fool or a sociopath.
He added that to him, being a hero means: facing your inner demons, your fear and still face the danger head on.
That's what Frodo does. He knows what sort of effect the ring will have on him. He knows that this mission is a bit of a suicide mission for him and yet...he still goes to Mount Doom.

I don't understand why so many Hollywood movies have to have a happy ending.
One of the strenghts of the LOTR books is that the ending is bittersweet.
After the destruction of the ring, I felt so bad for Frodo.
Merry, Pippin and Sam became important hobbits, leading a happy life, playing an important role in their hobbit society.
Frodo suffered from his injuries, had to deal with his inner demons (the fact that he did surrendor to the power of the ring after all). He saw life in The Shire pass him by. He showed typical signs of a classic depression.

It's obvious that Sean Astin's Sam has more chance of getting a nomination. Sam never gave up, it was tough at times, but he never gave in.
That Sam didn't have to face the burden of carrying the ring for a longer time, is overlooked by many viewers of the movies.
...Now, don't get me wrong. I loved what Sean Astin did with Sam. He was brilliant and I would be thrilled if he would be nominated.
One of the scenes from the book I missed in ROTK, was when Sam had the ring in his possesion and in the book, you can read the negative impact of the ring on him. So, as a reader, you think: "Wow, Frodo must be strong to be able to fight off the negative effect of the ring for such a long time". There's a hint of it in the movie, but it's not clear enough.
Somehow, some people fail to see how strong Frodo really was.
I feel that they should have shown that impact on Sam more clearly. It doesn't diminish Sam because he was still strong enough to give the ring back to Frodo.

BTW, thanks for the welcomes.:)
*back to reading this thread*

wood

01-14-2004, 01:55 PM

welcome moondancer andto all new ones!
i totally agree with your thougts moon dancer
you read my mind!!!!:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Moondancer

01-14-2004, 03:14 PM

Found this:
Press release - Jan. 14, 2004
It's about Stephen Spielberg's Shoah Foundation.

Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak - New Web Based Exhibit Unveiled

Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak - an interactive
English-language web exhibit designed for American middle school students, aged 11-14, will be launched on the Foundation's new website. Narrated by Peter Coyote, Elijah Wood and Natalie Portman,

Children Speak highlights testimonies from four survivors who were children during the Holocaust, and allows students to interact with the testimonies, while simultaneously exploring historical overviews, archival film footage, a glossary, maps, and survivors' personal photos. By using the web exhibit, students can participate in a dynamic environment where they can explore themes of identity, responsibility, and friendship guided by stories of survival and life before, during, and after the Holocaust. A teacher's guide with lesson plans for educators will also be available.

(That new website is launched in March 2004)

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040114/law076_1.html

hobbityme

01-14-2004, 03:24 PM

Thanks for that moondancer! Sounds really interesting and good.

I also found something about Eternal Sunshine for anyone interested. Apparently there's an all-new trailer that will preview on ET tonight. Don't know if it's the same one that's been circulating on the web for the past couple of months but anyways, here's a bit more info

http://et.tv.yahoo.com/movies/2004/01/14/eternalsunshineofthespotlessmind/

Don't know if this is right place to put all this stuff but if it's not, please tell me. Because I know it doesn't really have anything to do with analyzing Elijah's acting.

tgshaw

01-14-2004, 05:41 PM

Thanks for the update on the Shoah Foundation project, Moondancer. It was announced so long ago that I'd kind of forgotten about it. I remember Natalie Portman being named, too, along with Elijah. IIRC, that's what started the discussion of Elijah's Jewish roles--The Witness, Avalon, North. BTW, I did read North-the-book after that discussion, and as Brunhild said, the Jewish heritage aspect is very strong--but I don't think it's even mentioned in the movie. In fact, it seems almost symbolically omitted, if that's the right way to put it: The character closest to the one Bruce Willis plays is an older Jewish man in the book--turned into the Easter bunny in the movie :rolleyes: .

BLOSSOM

01-15-2004, 02:18 AM

Originally posted by ainon:
Blossom, your RotK crebain - it wouldn't happen to be blocked by a black patch at the bottom portion of the screen, would it? With the screen at an odd slight angle? Like this:
_____________________________________

ainon, your pic isn't showing up for me at the moment, but there's no black patch on my crebain. The angle looks OK too.
One big downfall is that it jumps a few scenes. We get Legolas climbing up the Oliphaunt, and suddenly it cuts to Sam fighting the orcs in the dark dower - 'And that's for my old Gaffer.' Which means Frodo's first scene in the tower, when the orcs are arguing over the Mithril shirt, and he realizes the Ring has gone, is missing.:(

The whisper you heard, ainon. That is IT.

Hubby and I went to see ROTK at the cinema yesterday - only my second viewing in the theatre - and we paid special attention during Frodo and Sam's GH hug. It is definitely THERE, in the film itself. Hubby turned to me immediately and whispered, 'Yes. He said it.' I'd say it sounds like a sigh, and 'I love you' is barely whispered 'through' that sigh, if that makes any sense.

It's quite beautiful.

I completely understand all of your various thoughts and reasons for why it shouldn't or couldn't be there. It's so subtle, and I have to say it's really, really easy to miss it. The problem is that in the cinema it goes by so quickly, and there's only one chance to hear it - if you miss it first time, it's gone. With the advantage of crebain and backtracking you can listen over and over, and once you've heard it, you hear it every time.

During the film yesterday, as Frodo approaches the pass that leads to the dark tower, with the camera looking up at him - what a beautiful jaw-line shot that is - and Shelob appears above and behind him, a woman a couple of rows in front of us actually exclaimed loudly, 'Oh my God!'

Welcome Moondancer. Yes, it seems a lot of people fail to 'see' Frodo's inner strength and courage, and this seems to have reflected in some critics' take on Elijah's performance. I agree with what Grumpy said about Frodo and Sam being two very different roles, both played brilliantly by two very talented actors. Elijah stands out for me BECAUSE Frodo's struggle is so internal, and he portrays the character's gradual mental and physical decline flawlessly. Of course Sam's courage is presented in a much more obvious way - you can SEE it, it's there - there's no way the audience can really doubt his courage. With Frodo, although there are times he fights back - he stabs at Shelob with Sting - he fights quite ferociously when Gollum attacks him - his very personal battle is completely bound up with the burden he carries, with the evil of the Ring, and with his own will. With each new day that dawns Frodo grows weaker; each step towards Mordor tortures his body and torments his mind; his very soul is being eaten away. And still he goes on... What's not to admire about that? What's not to admire about a young actor who portrays that torment and degeneration, that loss of self, to heartbreaking perfection?

I could scream when I see him labelled a 'whimp.' Frodo's fear and apprehension is a very real reaction to the situations he finds himself in - your quote from Russell Crowe is very apt, I think, Moondancer - 'a person facing great danger and not feeling fear is either a fool or a sociopath... being a hero means: facing your inner demons, your fear and still facing the danger head on.'

Amen to that.

If there were one thing I'd say that was slightly lacking IMHO in ROTK is Frodo's post-quest suffering. I think this could have been emphasized a little more - one short scene would have done it - Frodo lying in his bed in Bag End - isn't there a line in the book (can't remember exactly, but it just came to my mind) where Frodo says to himself, 'It is gone.. all is dark and empty.' I think the inclusion of this, or something similar, would have made it clearer how much Frodo was suffering, how difficult he was finding it to adjust to his life back in The Shire. OTOH, when I interrogated... er, should I say asked... hubby why he thought Frodo left, he immediately replied, 'To be healed.' He must be more sensitive than I thought!

Frodo's voiceover is simply divine. I could listen to that voice for hours.

Hobbityme. Any Elijah-career-related links are welcome here. I'm sure we're all interested in this wonderful actor's post-LOTR work. Thanks.

Alyon - Good luck to A.D at Sundance.

When are Mariole and Serena coming back, I wonder?

Sorry, I rambled again.
Bye.

shadowcatshadow

01-15-2004, 02:29 AM

It was great to see "Child of the Night." On tv.

Frodoshadowing: 1. Luke uses a stick like a sword to cut through tree limbs, escaping imaginary Crocodiles. 2. He uses his VOICE to save the lady, like Frodo LOSES a FINGER to Save the World.

"The Bumblebee Flies Anyway" Foreshadowing. Luke is hypnotised to REMEMBER the Killer of his Dad. Barney is hypnotised to REMOVE the persistant memory of Parents being killed by a car. BOTH happened at NIGHT at age 8. :eek:

whiteling

01-15-2004, 03:19 AM

Steelsheen and Random - glad to see you delurked :cool: !

And Welcome to Moondancer :) - good that you found your way hither.

Wonderful post, Blossom, thank you :) ! Regarding the whisper - that's what I call a great research result! -

I think you are right, Frodo's post-quest suffering should have been more emphasized. His remark you quoted is so
heartbreaking... although a friend of mine (she knows the books very well) said she found Frodo's post-quest condition too doleful :confused: - tell me, can one feel too melancholic after that sort of journey ??!

Hey, I've found a pretty new TV interview with Elijah (http://www.zdf.de/ZDFde/mediathek/0,1903,VI-2043413,00.html). It was done for the same channel (ZDF) which presented the lovely
show "Wetten dass". It's a pity - the interviewer is male so this one is very focused on facts ;) . The interviewer is hardly to hear but I suppose that doesn't matter. It's quite long (about 6 minutes). Fingers crossed you all can get access. Enjoy!

*Mariole .... Serena ... - are you out there ....?!*

ainon

01-15-2004, 04:29 AM

Welcome Moondancer! Wonderful posts. Looks like you've come to the right 'home'. :)

Just a mention - the fact that Elijah himself is not campaigning for the Oscars tells us all that needs to be said about his chances, I think. The fact that New Line had opted to name him as their Best Actor candidate anyway will have to be enough. Right from the beginning PJ's said that Frodo is the hero, and that whoever played Frodo would be the most important person. That fact remains true.

Sorry about the missing pic. :o Apparently VillagePhotos has changed the rules. No more direct linking. Unless I pay for it. Sigh. Fewer and fewer freebies available! What is the world coming to? :p :D

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/crebain.jpg

Originally posted by BLOSSOM
The whisper you heard, ainon. That is IT.

Well, if your crebain has it and my crebain has it then it's hardly a coincidence no more, is it? :)

If there's more to post-Quest scenes I'm happy to wait till the EE. My best friend (non book reader) refers to the post-Quest segment as 'all the mushy mushy stuff will they get over with it so that I can go home?' No, our Frodo shouldn't be rushed. His angst should be explored to the deepest ... umm ... angstness. ;) Anyway, movies are a visual medium. Frodo looks sick, Frodo mentions he's sick, Frodo very obviously looks unhappy, Frodo says he ain't exactly feeling warm and sunny 'bout home ... that's more than enough for the theatrical version. IMO PJ has a fine sense of timing - just how far he can go, and just when to pull back. I think that's how he balanced the actors' performances as well. Every actor complimented the other. No one actor grandstanding, drawing all attention only to himself. Well, unless he's King Theoden or would-be-King Aragorn telling his men that of course it's hopeless, of course everyone's going to die, of course there're too many enemies ... so LETS GO DIE. ;) :cool:

Whiteling - your video: is it streaming, or will I be able to download it on a 56K modem? :p Thanks all you guys, for sharing all the articles that've been found. Here's another one those

http://www.usatoday.com/life/movies/news/2004-01-14-lotr-farewell_x.htm

Elijah Wood, Frodo the hobbit
Favorite moment in King: "When Frodo collapses on the side of Mount Doom, and Sam tries to make him remember the Shire."
What will you miss most? "Working with Peter, the crew and the actors."
What won't you miss? "The press tours. They are an exhaustive process."
What would you toss into Mount Doom? "I don't know if I have anything that I would so desperately want to get rid of. We come in contact with things in our lives for a reason, negative and positive."
What's next?Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind, opening March 19; the voice of Mumble the penguin in Happy Feet, a computer-animated comedy.

Okay. I thought *I* was sick. But Maeg and Alyon nitpicking a severed finger brings sickness to a whole new appreciative level. :D :D

Mariole, Serena and for that matter Sheryl! Been a long while, m'ladies.

((((Faculty))))

Moondancer

01-15-2004, 05:38 AM

I'm at home with a terrible cold *tries very hard not to feel sorry for herself :D *. So, in between the sniffles, the sneezing, the coughing and the little naps....I'm emerging myself in Middle Earth: one of the DVD's in the background, reading this thread (making slow progress, I can't make myself speed up and skip a few pages or so, because there are so many great posts).

originally posted by ainon
Just a mention - the fact that Elijah himself is not campaigning for the Oscars tells us all that needs to be said about his chances, I think.

I don't think it's that important to Elijah.
Elijah Wood keeping his fingers crossed for Peter Jackson
[from Contact Music]

Elijah Wood is willing to miss out at next month's (FEB03) Academy Awards for his role in Lord of the Rings, as long as director Peter Jackson gets a gong.

For two years running, the JRR Tolkien trilogy has missed out on the big gongs such as best picture, best actor and best director only winning Oscars for cinematography, effects, make-up and music for The Fellowship of the Ring.

But this year, critics predict The Return of the King get the recognition it deserves - and Wood is keeping his fingers crossed.

He says, "I don't generally put any importance on the Oscar. However, in this case, it has been such an incredible achievement for him (Jackson) and for everyone else involved.

"To have adapted these books and put them on film, they way he had, in the time that he has, is an incredible achievement and I think it needs to be recognised.

"More than anything, I think the symbolism of what it would mean to get an Oscar would be a special thing, after all this time. For the academy to acknowledge that these are great films that have merit and aren't just fantasy films, would be important as well."
http://www.wizardnews.com/story.200401141.html

I agree with this. I'd love to see Elijah be nominated but I guess that it won't happen. But, Peter Jackson should really be awarded for this.

Other topic now: about Elijah Wood's acting career.
Remember MacC. Culkin (from Home Alone)? In those days, he was the number one kid actor. The one who had proven his box office strengths. Elijah Wood was lesser known by the public, but more respected, as an actor, by the movie insiders.

Culkin was an example for parents on "How not to guide your son or daughter, the child actor". With him, the acting became less important, less of a joy and more of a real job, bringing in the money for the family (which is quite a responsiblity for a young actor). Culkin's father was his manager and he gained a reputation for being terrible to work with. He got such a power trip over his son's career.
So, when they wanted to do the movie "Richie Rich" (which is apparently a very popular story in the US, so an important movie). The first name on their list was young Culkin. His father knew this, so he made very high demands during the negociations and the father didn't want to be reasonable because he knew that the producers really wanted his son for this part. So, one of the producers said no to the demands. The father said something like: "my son is the only one capable of headlining a movie like that", to which the producers said: "You want to bet?"

So, they stopped the negociations with Culkin and father and went to Elijah Wood and manager. He agreed to do it and they shook hands on it. Elijah went on to prepare for this role.
Father Culkin heard this, he was shocked by the fact that his son was ignored like this so, he contacted the producers and said them that his son wanted to do it after all on their terms.
Result: they contacted Elijah to tell him that, despite the oral agreement, Culkin got the role.

In those days, we (here in Belgium) could see an entertainment show on CNN each day (1/2 hour each day). They reported about this extensively and it was very nice to see. It was a big news story.
One day they did a special about it.
Most of the people who had worked with Elijah were very angry about the way this boy was treated. One of the directors who worked with Culkin and Elijah, reported that they were making a huge mistake. He said that, sadly, because of the way his parents were pushing him, Culkin had lost his childhood. You never saw the kid behind the actor. Culkin was never playfull, he always acted like a mini-adult. Sad to see. Elijah on the other hand, could give you the most amazing acting performances but once the camera's switched off, he was just another kid. Very nice to see that in Hollywood.
A lot of people who had worked with him reported how much of a delight Elijah was to work with and what a talented young actor he was/is, about the excellent way in which his mum was guiding him. Directors he worked with, actors,.... Really a lot of big names wanted to talk about Elijah.
It was so nice to see and they were all furious about the way they USED Elijah to get to Culkin.
Mel Gibson (!) came to the CNN studio to talk about it. They told him that it was amazing that he came to the studio, especially for this. Gibson said: "When I came to Hollywood as a young adult actor, I knew that not everything is fair in Hollywood. These ugly games happen behind the scenes and if you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. But, Elijah is only a kid. How DARE THEY DO THIS TO HIM. [I remember it quite well, because Mel Gibson was really very angry about it]. They should be so lucky to get him for the role."

Anyway...I wish that I kept that tape about that special. It was quite something to see those big names talking like this about Elijah. I remember thinking that this kid must be something special to make those important actors and directors talk about him with so much passion.

[see? I was not kidding about my tendency to ramble...;) ]

PS Forgive me my language mistakes (my first language is Dutch).

Ariel

01-15-2004, 06:08 AM

Originally posted by ainon
your RotK crebain - it wouldn't happen to be blocked by a black patch at the bottom portion of the screen, would it? With the screen at an odd slight angle? Like this:

Just an FYI, mine does not have that bar and is pretty much flat on. There must be more than one cruising the aether. Mine also has excellent sound.

Originally posted by hobbityme
As for him trying out his range... Hooligans I heard, is a very violent and dark movie so we'll see what happens there.
Oh, wonderful! I have been dying to see him in something dark! *cracks knuckles in anticipation *

Originally posted by Moondancer
One of the reasons why I appreciate Elijah's performance is that Lij is not afraid to show doubts, weakness, fear,...
Exactly! He also doesnt seem all that interested in the things most Hollywood types are fame, closeup shots, making sure his name gets top billing It is quite refreshing. I only hope that attitude doesnt make it so that we dont get to see him work as often.

Edit: BTW - Welcome Moondancer. I am little more than an occasional poster - almost lurker myself - and not really a 'regular' but I did want to welcome you anyway.

Still reading and posting.

Ariel

BLOSSOM

01-15-2004, 06:34 AM

Whiteling - Thanks so much for the link to that Elijah interview. Oh, I wish we could download those and keep them, but it seems all of his German interviews aren't downloadable (is that a word!).

I could barely hear the interviewer, but don't you just love watching Elijah as he's listening to the questions? I like quite serious interviews like that, and I loved the beginning, when obviously they were getting prepared, and Elijah was chatting away to the guy off-camera. Lovely. Thanks again, Whiteling.:)

ainon - that's a shame about Village Photos. No, my crebain doesn't have the black 'crooked' section. Love that cap, btw. I love Frodo's reaction there after he puts the Ring around his neck.

Moondancer. Hope you feel better soon. Wow, I hadn't realized that about Elijah and Macauley Culkin. I know Culkin's father was rather difficult, to say the least, but I didn't know Elijah had been involved in anything like that. He must have been disappointed. I hate that type of thing - they should have told Culkin senior what to do, and stuck with Elijah. Was that before or after 'The Good Son?' I do feel quite sorry for Mac Culkin. With a father like that, making demands and such - makes you realize how fortunate Elijah has been with his mother's steadying influence and support. And the great thing is, Elijah readily admits that he adores his mother - Aahh! How wonderful that all those people spoke out against the way Elijah was treated, but at the end of the day, Culkin senior got his own way.:( Thanks for sharing that with us.:)
Btw, our ex-neighbour is moving to Belgium shortly.

SCS, it's great that you saw 'Child In The Night.' What's your verdict on this one?

Ariel, don't re-lurk.

Bye.

Moondancer

01-15-2004, 06:53 AM

Originally posted by BLOSSOM
Was that before or after 'The Good Son?'
I'm not sure. It was around that time, though but I can't remember it exactly. :confused:

After the Home Alone success, Macauley Culkin came to Belgium to promote a movie in Europe. They organised an interview session with a lot of international reporters in the garden of an hotel or something. So, each reporter took Macauley for a walk and an interview.
So, one of the Belgian reporters, writing for a quality magazine, wrote afterwards what a terrible interview it had been: very artificial, Macauley acted like a little brat apparently, making the reporters feel like lesser mortals, believing the hype around him.
Later, I read a review by the same reporter of the Good Son. He referred to that bad interview and said that he was glad to see that Elijah was outshining Macauley in every possible way (which is a very nice review for Elijah but...you do indeed feel a bit sorry for Macauley and they way he was raised in Hollywood).

erendis

01-15-2004, 08:38 AM

From IMDB

The Good Son 1993
Richie Rich 1994

So I guess that's how the produces knew to go to Elijah when Culkin Dad said no -- after all, there were probably hundreds of kids actors in Hollywood worth a second look. They must have checked out Culkin's movies, seen Wood act circles around Culkin, and filed Wood away for future casting possibilites.

Nasty as it was, I can see why they ultimately went with Culkin. The cartoon Richie Rich has very famous blond hair, and they just can't get around that. Elijah does not have the coloring for a blond wig. Culkin was the bigger box office draw at the time. But it wasn't nice to use Elijah like that, and I'm very happy to see that Mel Gibson stuck up for him.

Goldenberry

01-15-2004, 10:50 AM

Welcome, moondancer! And stop apologizing for a) the length of your posts, which have been full of interesting information and observations; and b) your command of English, which is better than many native English-speakers.:)

I had no idea about the Richie Rich controversy. It is great to read about powerful and famous people standing up for him. What a dramatic statement about the importance of upbringing and environment in shaping a person: the difference between Elijah and poor Macaulay Culkin.

The recent discussion of acting has me wondering once again why all the industry types who vote on awards don't see what we do. Presumably they know more than the average educated moviegoer about what goes into a great performance or film. So why do they fall for the obvious performances time after time? You know what I mean: the physically or mentally handicapped, the down-and-out losers, the beautiful person hiding behind a fake nose; and on the other hand the classic hero types. Their choices for acting and 'best picture' awards are often quite shallow. Oh wait--so is Tinseltown!:rolleyes: :D

zkgrumpy

01-15-2004, 11:31 AM

Originally posted by BLOSSOM
Moondancer. Hope you feel better soon.

Yes, dear, you have my sincerest sympathy after this past week. If it's anything like I have, it's miserable. Please take care and watch out for secondary infection. :::: uploading hot tea with honey and lemon, and a large steaming mug of hot buttered rum for good measure, along with a big pot of chicken soup ::::

Wow, I hadn't realized that about Elijah and Macauley Culkin. I know Culkin's father was rather difficult, to say the least, but I didn't know Elijah had been involved in anything like that. He must have been disappointed. I hate that type of thing - they should have told Culkin senior what to do, and stuck with Elijah.

I had no idea! Most of that stuff goes past me. That Mel Gibson (!) would take the time and effort to do that is amazing (but then he's pretty amazing - one of the few superstars that I really, really like since I saw him in Gallipoli in the early 80's :::: thumping cane :::: ).

I suspect that the long-term effect on The Lad would have been professional maturity. Someone just posted what he said about what would he throw into the crack of doom:
What would you toss into Mount Doom? "I don't know if I have anything that I would so desperately want to get rid of. We come in contact with things in our lives for a reason, negative and positive."

Whattaguy!!!

I can't say I'm sorry, though. Everything that Elijah has done, I believe, led to his being available, at the right price and with the right credentials, to play Frodo. :::: trying to visualize Culkin as Frodo; brain short-circuits :::: :eek: Had he become a superstar at that age (whatever it was), it's doubtful that he (or his manager/agent) would have been willing to become part of a production with so many strong roles. Instead, he's worked steadily since he was a whippersnapper, putting in sound performances and gaining critical praise even for roles in weak movies, and was in the right place at the right time to go rent a cheesey hobbit costume and make a tape. :) I read a whole lot of reviews of his stuff last night, and it's pretty amazing. Rob Reiner and the whole North movie are roasted; every darned critic ends up with some variation on "Elijah was great...".

SCS, it's great that you saw 'Child In The Night.' What's your verdict on this one?

Dang. I'm still waiting for this one from Amazon. I guess I have to go and rattle their cages a bit.

Ariel, don't re-lurk.

Why is Ariel lurking? :confused: :(

BTW, I saw most of the Saturday Night Live thing from frodoandsam.net. Jeepers he's a cutie!

~grumpy

Moondancer

01-15-2004, 11:48 AM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
Welcome, moondancer! And stop apologizing for a) the length of your posts, which have been full of interesting information and observations; and b) your command of English, which is better than many native English-speakers.:)

a) LOL...OK, I'll stop doing it.
b) thanks! :)

I'm at page 42 of this thread at the moment.
I love the theory about the microexpressions but most of the links to pictures are broken, so it's difficult to see what you mean.

I love how people react to Elijah.

The journalist of SFX magazine, interviewing him in New York last year. She begins the article saying that Elijah - like a typical star - is fashionably late. She and 2 colleagues are worrying about a plane they have to catch until Elijah storms in the hotel.
...But one flash of Elijah Wood's baby blues as he comes breezing in with a thousand apologies and the biggest eyes I've ever seen in my life and all is forgiven...
Awww

And further in the article, when Elijah is talking about the making of the trilogy , she writes:
..."It was very gruelling, very different. An incredible experience but very difficult." Wood looks almost pained at the thought of it. He then pauses and closes his luminous eyes. A shadow almost seems to fall over the room. It's spooky. Perhaps he really is a hobbit. Then he looks up and the room is bright and alive...
Beautiful.

A couple of pages later (p. 42), I see what David Wenham (Faramir) has to say about Elijah and....wow.

[thinking of the bitten fingernails]

[I]originally posted by zkgrumpy
:::: uploading hot tea with honey and lemon, and a large steaming mug of hot buttered rum for good measure, along with a big pot of chicken soup ::::
I have a big pot of hot tea with lemon in front of me as we speak.
:)

I think that Elijah and his mum have made some very wise decisions in his career. He practically never starred in one of those rather dumn and typical kids movies. Most of the movies were quite adult orientated with him playing just a kid (quite often a troubled kid, like in Radio Flyer). They never seemed to go for the easy choices, the easy money projects.
His fame never came sudden so he was able to get used to it.

peaceweaver

01-15-2004, 12:07 PM

Chiming in to say hello to new faculty members! :) And to wish good health and speedy recovery to those colleagues who have fallen into...whatever. ;)

The Screen Actors Guild just released their list of nominees for best actor. I was hoping against hope that *this* group would "get" the performance that EW gave in RoTK, but alas, alack, they did not have eyes to see. (Though they did recognize Johnny Depp for POTC!). I predict their choice will be Bill Murray, for Lost in Translation. Yawn. Return of the King was nominated for their 'best ensemble' category, though, and they should blow everyone else out of the water.

In the face of such industry blindness, the only sane response is to shrug shoulders and get on with life. I just hope that, since they seem incapable of giving accolades to whom and when they are deserved, that the powers that be in Hollywood at least shower Elwood with good scripts.

Here's a little present for you all. From the National Board of Review event. Feast your eyes!

Edited to add: By an amazing coincidence, I just discovered this interview which asks EW about his memories of The Good Son! Typically, he discusses only the positive! And the tagline for the interview is "The Sexiest Hobbit Alive!" :D
http://www.stanforddaily.com/tempo?page=content&id=12677&repository=0001_article

wood

01-15-2004, 02:20 PM

i just wonder how EW will feel in his heart if sean astin gets
a nomination and his not?i now they is very god friends but
recently i notest in sean interwius his not talk about ew as
often as he has before.i dont no mybe its just me but i dont
like sean very much i think he likes to talk little to much about him self not like EW who often put other first.that is of cuse one
reson we all love him so much.

on sunday im going to see him on screen again its the nerest
to him il ever be.my chances to see him in real life is very very small i have to love him from distans.(his the man in my dreams)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Ariel

01-15-2004, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
Why is Ariel lurking? :confused: :(

Quick post...

Because, my dear, this thread is SO involved and SO interesting and requires so much thought for responses, that often I don't have time to do anything but! LOL!

I have committments in the harem, so I can't drop that, so when RL comes to call, this thread is the one I reluctantly fall behind on...

And speaking of RL... gotta go. :(

Originally posted by wood
.i dont no mybe its just me but i dont
like sean very much

Gotta add... When watching the two of them in NYC, I saw no tension between them, but EW definitely lets SA 'step forward'. I never saw EW vie for attention or try to get a word in edgewise - he always lets others speak first - though once he started, the others generally were polite enough to let him have his say.

There was a story SA told about the first film - PJ had said that Sam would not be the focus of the first film and so SA had had no closeups yet. They all seemed to have known about SA being desperate for a closeup shot and teased him about it - to the point that when he finally got one (Bag End table) Ian M tried to pull his chain by blocking the camera with his own body. It was very funny, but it changed my impression of SA. EW had tons of closeups and would not have begrudged SA his share, but can you even see EW being that desperate to get one? I don't.

Makes SA seem more like the norm for Hollywood (not that that is bad) and EW nicely different.

Ariel

Maeglian

01-15-2004, 04:13 PM

Welcome, moondancer! :)

From ainon
Just a mention - the fact that Elijah himself is not campaigning for the Oscars tells us all that needs to be said about his chances, I think. I'm not disputing your statement, I'm just curious: Exactly what would he be doing if he was campaigning for an Oscar nomination? I've never bothered with such things at all except when it comes to these films, and although i read articles on them and follow the box office development her and in the US quite devotedly, I really do not know much about what serious Oscar campaigning entails. I do know that Elijah's been very visible on the US media scene, doing a *lot* of talk shows and other media appearances and that SNL show, and with good coverage and heaps of interviews in movie magazines etc...... wouldn't that count as campainging in a way? I thought the Academy were supposed to crack down more heavily on overt campaigning? I guess likely best actor candidates are Tom Cruise (ugh!), Russel Crowe, Bill Murray..... ? What kind of campaigning have they been doing that Elijah hasn't? Or is it the studio that's been more active on their behalf than New Line has been on Elijah's?
(A lot of questions, I know - but I find the topic fascinating, so I hope someone'll take the time to enligthten me a bit. :) )

From Ariel
When watching the two of them in NYC, I saw no tension between them, but EW definitely lets SA 'step forward'. I never saw EW vie for attention or try to get a word in edgewise - he always lets others speak first... Just like on the cast commentary! I'd really, really appreciate getting a separate Elijah commentary for the RotK EE DVD, so as to get to hear more of *his* comments and thoughts. He's so very polite, too polite IMO, letting others go on at great length...

zkgrumpy

01-15-2004, 05:52 PM

Originally posted by wood
[B]i just wonder how EW will feel in his heart if sean astin gets
a nomination and his not?

If EW is the professional that he seems to be, and if he and SA are truly friends, he will be very happy for him.

Of course, I may be entirely wrong and he'll go out and get smashed and throw a tantrum if he doesn't get a nomination, but I think he's too much of a professional for that.

i now they is very god friends but
recently i notest in sean interwius his not talk about ew as
often as he has before.

Take another look at the pics that I put on my dinky site (linked in this thread). Look at the expression on Sean's face when he looked at Elijah. If that look is fake, then Sean indeed deserves a Best Actor nomination. ;)

i dont no mybe its just me but i dont
like sean very much i think he likes to talk little to much about him self not like EW who often put other first.that is of cuse one
reson we all love him so much.

They are doing a job for which they're getting paid - promoting the movie for its release and for awards. When they're in an interview, they are not there to talk about each other but about their own work, thoughts, etc.

They're two entirely different personalities, and I think it's a tribute to both of them - in fact, to all of the actors who became good friends - that they made friends with people from different cultures, different ages.

They remind me of Mozart and Beethoven. EW is like Mozart, who had music flowing out of him from about age 5, and it seemed effortless and resulted in beauty that was so pure and light and just stunning. SA is like Beethoven, who was more heavy-handed, wringing huge magnificent works out of himself. Both depended on their music for their living. Both were great, both changed music forever. They just did it differently.

But Mozart died a pauper. :(

I like Sean. He's verbal but always seems to have something worthwhile to say. He loves history; a man after my own heart. Elijah is - well - just beautiful. I was blown away by both performances, and I think one wouldn't have been what it was without the other.

I encourage you to not create competition where it doesn't really exist. We don't really know these guys - just what they say and what they let us see. Elijah appears to be not tremendously ambitious, but he's been steadily employed since he was 8 and worked very hard to get the part of Frodo, so there's some level of ambition there. Sean appears ambitious - wants to get into directing. That is not a bad thing, especially in an industry that is so difficult.

on sunday im going to see him on screen again its the nerest
to him il ever be. my chances to see him in real life is very very small i have to love him from distans.(his the man in my dreams)

The nice thing about admiring someone from a distance is that you will never be disappointed by his little shortcomings, and will never see if he has feet of clay. :)

I'm going to see it again this weekend if it kills me!!!

~grumpy (now, after all that, why is it that I'm *here* and not over on Sean's board?) :p (BTW I just saw a site with some really, really *hot* pictures of Elijah. He ain't no little kid! :::: fanning self :::: )

hobbityme

01-15-2004, 06:55 PM

About this whole Elijah/Sean thing, I do remember reading somewhere how proud Eljiah was of Sean, especially since he has a shot at an Oscar nomination. I think Elijah knows of his dismal (non-existent) chances. Of course, this doesn't really take anything away from his performances, just that AMPAS is really just half about substance and half about politics. The Best Actor category is waaaaay too tough and too filled with the more "suitable" candidates. But we should all really relax because we know he'll get it one day. ;)

Another tidbit on Elijah/Sean relationship...
Sean was actually the one who found Elijah's apartment in NewYork and was the one who wanted to take control of decorating it. And Elijah at the airport for I believe the LA premiere was carrying Ally (Sean's daughter) all throughout. They're really very close and I think that both really do love each other like brothers.

shadowcatshadow

01-15-2004, 07:10 PM

What is my verdict on "Child of the Night?"

I thought it was great for an 8 year old to act the way he did. If it had been Maculay Culkin, he would have gone after the Grandfather, killed him, and we would have had a psycho 8 year old running around, plus he'd ALSO make a Fugly Peter Pan. (Isn't Peter Pan about Sweetness and Light? I htought so).

I thought it was SO cool when he asked to hypnotised to help him remember the crime. (Wouldn't you like to do relax him like this anyway?
:D )

But HOW does an 8 year old NOW how to act like this? Was there SOME dysfunction his Elijah's family? or is he just plain Brilliant? :confused:

I think it's both. :D

tgshaw

01-15-2004, 07:28 PM

hobbityme kind of beat me to the punch with her last statement :) . I was going to say that not all the relationships between the "hobbit boys" are the same. For example, Elijah and Dom are friends--they're interested in a lot of the same things, enjoy the same music, hang out together, both have a "single guy" type of lifestyle, etc. But from the start, Elijah and Sean have said they feel like brothers, which is a whole different kind of relationship. Sean's 10 years older than Elijah, has a whole different lifestyle and a whole different set of interests (even when asked what types of movies they'd like to be involved with in the future, they gave almost opposite answers), and their personalities are miles apart. But between brothers, none of that matters--any love and caring and connection are deeper than any of those things. And I certainly think they'd be deeper than any competition between the two (and, really, they aren't even competing against each other, since they'd be considered in separate categories).

From things Elijah has said lately, I do think there's one thing the Academy could do that would thoroughly get him riled--that's if PJ doesn't get the recognition he should this time around.

-------------

(And just a bit on Maeg's question about "campaigning"--from all I've heard, that seems to be something the studios engage in rather than the actors. Miramax seems to be the "pro" at it :rolleyes: .)

------------

A note regarding Child in the Night--grumpy (or anyone else), if you've ordered a new copy of the VHS from Amazon and haven't heard anything--except for emails asking you if you want to keep waiting :rolleyes: --you might want to try for a used copy instead. I waited for months until Amazon finally said they couldn't find a new one, then I ordered a used one (from the Amazon site--if someone's selling a used copy they link to it from the page where they show the "regular" one). In the wake of the LotR movies, more people have been listing used copies for sale. If there's nothing at Amazon, you can try half.com (I think they're still around, although I haven't bought anything from them for awhile). Bottom line is, don't hold your breath for a new one from Amazon--they'll give it a good try, but they can't always find one.

---------------

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
But HOW does an 8 year old NOW how to act like this?
That's the kind of question that's gotten this thread to 218 pages long with no end in sight :p ! "How does he do it?" is the question, indeed. His director from Huck Finn said he was a natural--didn't have to intellectually analyze the character he was playing as a lot of actors do. And a lot of what he does has to be natural, since he was doing it so young--and I don't just mean he was acting when he was young, but that he was acting brilliantly when he was young :confused: . Even in Child in the Night, which had low production values and a short filming time (hard for the actors to really "get into" their characters), he does an awfully good job.

What a lot of it comes down to, IMVVVHO, is that Elijah seems to have always been character centered. Unlike a lot of actors, he doesn't ask, "How would I feel in this situation?" Instead, he asks, "How would feel?" In one interview regarding LotR, he said that he tried to look at everything from Frodo's POV--and not just in regard to scenes, but even to things that would happen to him off-set during the day. IIRC, he specifically mentioned this in connection with [i]breakfast--how would Frodo feel about the runny eggs (okay, I don't remember what he said that specifically, but that was the idea :p ).

But I do think it's that kind of empathy with the character that lets him "disappear" the way he does, and that allows him to show the incredibly subtle, nuanced, and often undefinable emotions that he does. So often, he can't even define them, or remember exactly how or why he acted a shot in a specific way (the final smile/nod at the Grey Havens is a great example of that). I also think it has a lot to do with the way he can express emotions that he personally has never experienced, which a lot of actors also have trouble with.

Oh, my, I could keep on here for a long time, but don't know quite what I'd put in the next sentence, so it's probably a good place to stop :) .

Ariel

01-15-2004, 07:32 PM

One other funny story from NYC...

There was a part where PJ was describing the relationship between Frodo and Sam and both the 'boys' were sitting quietly in front of the monster-sized broadcast PJ. EW was slouched; looking at his feet (does that boy always wear bell bottoms?) and SA still had his coffee cup (though I'll have to check my pics on that fact). At one point, PJ said that Frodo and Sam were modeled after a British officer and his batman, and EW, surreptitiously and down by his hip, pointed one finger over at SA, closed his eyes, scrunched up his face and nodded with a look that most eloquently said Dammed straight, babe! Hes the help, as it ought to be..

I almost fell off my chair laughing.

I truly see no rivalry between them, but as was noted, they are simply two different types of people. What I was getting at was that EW is probably a less common type, while SA is more what you would expect from Hollywood one who is more aggressive in marketing himself which, in all honesty, will probably get him more work than EW in the long run.

Personally, I like the EW type better. But that is just my preference.

I had some other observations about the way the actors handled the crowd but much of this is definitely just my perception. I felt EW had an uncanny ability to command an audience. It may have just been my focus, but the young man was able to play the crowd with the merest glance I swear he had laser beams for eyes. Hed focus on someone in the crowd and it really felt like he was looking at you! There was a gal behind me who shouted something and I saw him look up. The look on his face really said Chill out and she did. If I hadnt seen it, I would not have believed it.

Of course, it could have been entirely my imagination too. :p

Ariel

tgshaw

01-15-2004, 08:13 PM

Ariel--I'd love to see him operate in person! Because things he's said--and things others have said about him--over the last few years make me suspect you weren't imagining anything! He seems to have an uncanny knack for reading people (the basis of the whole "microexpression theory of EJW acting" ;) ) that he thinks is perfectly normal. Maybe since he's been getting more attention he's realized that not everyone's like him in this, but it seems to be something he does without really having to concentrate on it. He has an incredible focus on other people, which I'm sure comes partly from the fact that he's so un-self-centered, but I think his natural gift for it goes even beyond that. I certainly think it's something that helps him become a character (from the audience's point of view :) ).

Hobmom

01-15-2004, 08:50 PM

After what Ariel said....which certainly confirms what I've seen of Elijah, though sadly not in person, is that Elijah may just become a brilliant stage actor. He could be beyond McKellenian!

He has such stage presence and those finally tuned nuances of face and body language. Now I think he may have realized he can handle being up there in front of large audiences and that he has that incredible chemistry with them. Dom and Billy keep urging him to try stage acting and I am now completely convinced he MUST do this!

We know he is magnificent on film but he could be superlative on stage.

He belongs on Broadway. And YOU KNOW I will go to see him when that happens!

mel headstrong

01-15-2004, 09:19 PM

I wonder if this sense that Elijah is really, genuinely nice and not at all self-centered will help (eventually) end up getting an Oscar. In watching the campaigning in the last couple years, I've noticed a fair amount of talk about how various actors are viewed in the acting community, along with talk about how good their performances are. I get the sense that actors who are really well-liked by their peers often get rewarded eventually -- and that everyone feels really good about it when it happens. Elijah just seems like the sort of person that that could happen to... eventually.

The comment from Mel Gibson from Elijah's child acting days makes me think about it. It seems as if Elijah's been building goodwill unintentionally for a long time already.

Saw the movie again today. Someone a couple rows ahead of me started spontaneously clapping when Frodo sets his shoulders and continues on after his vision of Galadriel. A woman (?) after my own heart... :D

I don't understand how the heck any of you have managed to get through a real life encounter with the Eyes and lived to tell about it. :o You're strong women, you are. :D

Mel

wood

01-15-2004, 11:10 PM

ok!!
i will not bring it up again it was stupid.
i really think they are great actors,both of them.
sorry if i upset anybody!!!!!!!:( :( :(

BunnieBugs

01-15-2004, 11:14 PM

There is a brief but interesting interview here: The Wave (http://www.thewavemag.com/pagegen.php?pagename=article&articleid=24507) ...which contains this snippet, which I love:

TW: Is it hard to watch your old films?
EW: No, I actually love watching them. I think its hilarious, because I dont have any connection. I saw Avalon the other day it was on TV and its my equivalent to naked baby photos. Its funny and it trips me out. It really does trip me out, because Im now 22 and I dont know how I did that at eight. I dont have any connection to it anymore. Its wild to watch.

:D :cool:

Bridget Chubb

01-15-2004, 11:36 PM

Lovely, intelligent post, Grumpy.:) I'm biased, and I know it - but I would hate to see the intelligent, thoughtful discussion here decay into meaningless comparisons of EW with SA (or anyone else), just to make Elijah look good. He's not perfect either, folks - let's not forget that.;)

Prim

01-15-2004, 11:51 PM

Wood : you did not upset anyone. It's a valid question and variations of it are being asked all over the net. Don't apologise!
I agree with tg they are like brothers but as a sister of three (and I have to point out here that despite having friends I love a great deal I always seem to have so much more fun with my sisters) nonetheless sibling rivalry is a fact of life. I think EW, as a sweetie, would be as conflicted as anyone else. Joy for a good friend. Disappointment for himself. Normal. Healthy. And just a bummer part of life. (feeling two things at once )

Blossom: I'm glad you heard the "Whisper" in the theatre and that Ainon agrees a whisper is heard there. My cold water approach is not at all to diminish your joy but just a natural scepiticism and also at base a fear that if this line is used and is picked up by too many viewers then we are going to get a redoubling of "homo-eroticism" comments along the "I told you so" line; and I think after cruising several sites I have had so much of this claptrap already that I am at the point of developing a nervous rash.:mad: So I admit it: my scepticism has a personal motivation behind it.
Nonetheless, as a true Fac member, I will make a point of listening for it next time I see the film. Which might be a while the way things are going .

I'm terribly tempted to ask for *cough* RoTk crebain.....yet....nah. I'll wait. Yup. Waiting. Sigh. Waiting. Of course, my high minded moral stance (not to mention the venal desire for a perfect copy ;) ) could be partially appeased by a few more choice caps????

Pearl thankyou for your thoughts. :) I do appreciate EW's and Jackson's vision of Frodo but admit to disappointment. I have no intention of souring others delight and thus will not ramble on in detail. We all have our own unique visions and its a c'est la vie sort of thing to me. And the film as a whole works so well for me that it was a delight anyway.

edit: that sounded a bit ungracious. I do really like EW's performance and totally enjoy the film. I just would have focused a little more on Wood than on Sam, or the other plotlines. Not hugely more. Just a few more lingering takes (one second more), a slight change of angle. Minor "mood" stuff.

ainon

01-16-2004, 12:16 AM

Feeling better today, I hope, Moondancer and grumpy? :) Anyway, Moondancer, there's a bunch of us English as second-language mutilaters here too. :D Do you get LOTR dubbed, or subtitled?

Peaceweaver, thanks for the SAG update! No acting nominations from them either? Sheesh.

Ariel - LOL! Thanks for sharing another Live!Elijah moment. I'm still getting over my intense jealousy at you and Flourish for having been so lucky! :cool:

Bunnie - that snippet is a hoot! Thank you. :k

Originally posted by Maeglian
Exactly what would he be doing if he was campaigning for an Oscar nomination?

I imagine what Sean's doing. :) I don't actually know anything so those who do know are welcome to trout me soundly for making stuff up :rolleyes: but I imagine the same rules apply whether it be for politicians or academicians or actors. If you're not as well known as Russell Crowe or Bill Murray, haven't been the business long enough to impress by sheer looming/legendary/awe-inspiring presence, then you have to be out there reminding people (the Academy voters, in this case) who you are, and which character you played, and why should people care. Elijah did his media rounds in support of the movie, yeah, but there's not much now to remind people just who the heck he played. Voters have a lot of movies to watch and aren't as inclined to remember every single actor and character, nor do they need to care; unlike us who care about nothing other than RotK and Elijah Wood! :D

And like tg said, the studios do whatever's necessary to make sure voters won't forget, or won't ignore certain movies and performances. IIRC, last year New Line did what it could for Andy Serkis -- there were a lot of articles detailing how much work Andy did for Gollum, that Gollum was performed by a living, breathing actor, etc, etc. Right now we're having many a Sean interview where we're told again that he played Samwise Gamgee, the hobbit in RotK who carried Frodo up the slopes of Mount Doom. Spoilerishness aside, fans and ordinary movie-goers really don't need that kind of info anymore. But voters might.

It's still nice to hope that maybe, just maybe voters won't need reminding as to who Elijah is, and who he was in LOTR, just as voters really shouldn't need to be told *again* that Peter Jackson directed the most ambitious movie trilogy project of all time. I know I'll still be hoping! :p Still, I think it's a gesture on the part of New Line to put Elijah as their one Best Actor candidate. RotK is an ensemble and by rights Elijah could have been grouped with Sean, Viggo and Ian McKellen, or Viggo could have been a co-Best Actor candidate to balance things out.

(((wood))) okay. :) I like what PJ says about how much care went into the casting:

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1074211360

[question Andrea Giles from OneRing.Net?] You seem to have a knack for picking people who work well together and people who fit in to their roles. Is that something you were constantly aware of?

PJ: "Films are such strange things. Often on films, not all the time, you end up working with strangers, with people you hadn't met prior to the experience. I was very much aware that, as a long project, if we ended up working with people that didn't get on with each other or didn't like it, it would make it a very difficult project. Normally a film shoot is eight or 12 weeks and this was 15-16 months of principal shooting. When we were casting the movie or talking to crew members for instance, we did think of two things. One was the skill or quality of the person. Secondly, we met with just about everybody beforehand, and just wanted to make sure they were nice people - and I know that sounds rather simple and rather naïve, but it was very important to us to work with nice people for that length of time. Basically the answer is yes, we did have to take that into account and also take it very seriously."

Moondancer

01-16-2004, 03:40 AM

Originally posted by ainon
Anyway, Moondancer, there's a bunch of us English as second-language mutilaters here too. :D Do you get LOTR dubbed, or subtitled?

We get subtitles (thank God for small mercies). The only bad part of it is that I live in a country where 3 languages are spoken, but mainly 2: Dutch and French. So, a lot of the movies have subtitles (not all of them) in 2 languages and that takes up image space.

My sister lives in Germany (where they hardly ever get to see the original version, I think) and to me, you lose quite a bit by having to listen to another voice doing the talking for the actor.
Only the kid movies get dubbed here in Belgium and in the theaters, they offer you the choice to watch the movie in the original version or the Dutch version.
My other sister has a Dutch copy of Flipper. It's really funny to listen to Elijah talking in Dutch (and it's an accent from Holland, not Flanders (Belgium)).

Edit to put in a link from TheOneRing.net. It's not about Elijah so ...a bit off topic but we've been talking about Sean Astin so ...
Article title: "I'm a selfish jerk and why you should forgive me"
http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/11782
Sean Astin has grown up in Hollywood, with two famous parents. He knows the industry as a real insider. He knows how to play the game. He has knowledge of what it takes to get noticed and he's willing to play the game.
But at the same time, he strikes me as a person who feels guilty about actually playing along.
Anyway, I like him (from the little I know him of course).

honeyelf

01-16-2004, 08:25 AM

grumpy says:
(BTW I just saw a site with some really, really *hot* pictures of Elijah. He ain't no little kid! :::: fanning self :::: )

Spill it, grumpy! Please tell us WHERE?:)

Hobmom says:
He belongs on Broadway. And YOU KNOW I will go to see him when that happens!

Look for me! I'll be in the cheap seats! Does it matter that Broadway is on the other side of a very large continent? Not in the least!:D

Well, Blossom, I finally got back to the theater again it see IT. (5th time.) I listened, but I didn't hear anything during the Grey Havens hug. Guess we law abiding types who don't know where crebains hatch or nest or whatever :rolleyes: will have to wait till the real thing comes out on DVD.

Which, BTW, will probably be the next time I see the movie. Where I can cry and Snorfle in the privacy of my own home. :( :(

Moondancer, thank you for the link to "I'm a selfish jerk and why you should forgive me"! Can we say it all together now?

"I am not Sam"

Is this some kind of pointy-ear syndrome? I mean, remember Leonard Nimoy? Maybe another symptom is having "slash" written about you? Hmmmmm. :D

Regarding Elijah and Sean, I read a really sweet interview recently here (http://promontoryartists.org/lookingcloser/movie%20reviews/Q-Z/returnoftheking-elijahwood.htm)
in which Elijah is asked if he has a "Sam" in his life. I think this should put to rest any notions of rivalry!

Elijah's answer:
Ive got a few people in my life that keep me centered. All of my friends and my family. In a lot of ways, Sean is Sam to me. We may not see each other every day and I may live in a different state now. But there is a real truth to the relationship that we had in comparison to Frodo and Sam. Not as intense as that, but we became brothers. We love each other very much despite differences.

What a sweet, brave, honest answer! I love that this adorable kid is so open-hearted.

Well, I've got a sore throat, so I'm planning on lying low all day, and watching "Chain of Fools" again. Maybe if I'm really good, and gargle lot's my husband will take me to the Dave Matthews and Friends concert that I bought tickets for months ago. I'd hate to miss it!

Oh, speaking of being a "selfish jerk" :rolleyes: I keep forgetting to say "Hullo!" and welcome to Dangermouse, SteelSheen, Moon Dancer, And ElanorSam. I probably forgot somebody so please forgive me!

Honey!

tgshaw

01-16-2004, 08:30 AM

Thanks for the Wave interview, BB--I liked this bit, too:
TW: What has been your weirdest fan encounter with Lord of the Rings geeks?
EW: Whats really weird to me is when people come up and say that Im exactly as they imagined Frodo, which I cant really comprehend. Im just a person that was asked to come to New Zealand to play this character and I tried to play the character in the best way that I could. The fact that people see it that way freaks me out. I cant understand that.
...Well, of course he can't understand it--it was all planned by Higher Powers Beyond His Control! As Gandalf says to Bilbo at the end of The Hobbit (well, kind of--this is from memory): "Surely you don't disbelieve the prophecies just because you played a part in carrying them out! You don't imagine all of this happened solely for your benefit, do you? You are a wonderful person, Mr. Baggins, and I am terribly fond of you, but you are only one small hobbit in a very large world, after all." :) [To which Bilbo gives what seems to be--IMHO--a very elwoodian reply: "Thank goodness!"]

erendis

01-16-2004, 09:51 AM

The impression that I got from Lincoln Center was that Elijah much prefers the regular folks to the Hollywood types. When they were in the middle of telling blooper stories, Elijah said "We could do this for hours." He smiled a bit and had this look on his face that PLAINLY said that he would sit there and tell blooper stories for hours, by himself if he had to, and if they would only allow him to.

And yes, Elijah can hold an audience. He has a dozen versions of :rolleyes: and :p, and used all of them while the others were speaking. He's definitely a facial-expression sort of guy. It makes me want to see the visuals of the cast commentaries. All those times he was "quiet" and "unassuming" and "letting the others talk" -- for all we know he could have been silently laser-beaming the hobbits with those sarcastic Eyes.

I am still unsure how Elijah would handle Broadway though. He's very good at being himself when on stage, but could he project a subtle character on stage? I'm not sure. And his size really would be a detriment. You can't do close-ups and box tricks on stage.

wood

01-16-2004, 10:22 AM

please grumpy!
tell us the link to this hot stuff on elijah!!!please!!!:eek: :eek:

whiteling

01-16-2004, 11:04 AM

Originally posted by Moondancer
My sister lives in Germany (where they hardly ever get to see the original version, I think)

Unfortunately you are right, Moondancer. I am in Germany and thank goodness my home isn't too far away from our former capital city Bonn. There is a cinema theatre showing original versions and the small audience consists of international students, few scattered diplomats and dubbing-haters like me :p .

Ainon, :o apparently I'm not only living in a dubbing-obsessed country but also in "the land of the fastest streaming videos" :rolleyes: - sorry for being thick on this issue! Is there NO way for you to see such goodies? Bummer! :(

Sorry for interrupting, please carry on... :)

zkgrumpy

01-16-2004, 12:46 PM

quote:Originally posted by wood
please grumpy!
tell us the link to this hot stuff on elijah!!!please!!!

Down, girl! Down!!!

I'm sure y'awl have seen these but I just encountered them yesterday. I was *not* prepared for the G.N.S.(*) Or the smudgy-eyed-smudgy-faced one. Or the leather-clad one.

http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrs...umbs.mv?ewood+1

~grumpyandfeelinglikeadirtyoldcradle-robber
(*) Gratuitous Nipple Shot

Originally posted by wood
ok!!
i will not bring it up again it was stupid.
i really think they are great actors,both of them.
sorry if i upset anybody!!!!!!!:( :( :(

:::: giving wood a great big huge fuzzy hug ::::

Oh, wood, nobody's mad at you or thinks you're stupid!!! You expressed an opinion, and people discussed it! If there's any compliment that anyone can give you, it's that they thought enough of what you said that they disagreed with it! It takes time and care to write a response, and I think you should feel very good that you contributed such a great topic to the discussion!!! I know I enjoyed thinking about it!

:) :) :)

Obligatory 'Lij reference: I noticed that SFX magazine refers to him as "Ol' Blue Eyes" :)

The "just chill" look that EW gave someone at Lincoln Center: that fits with what we've heard - that Elijah thinks something and it shows in his eyes. Personally, I'm not sure that I'd want to be on the receiving end of a look like that!

~grumpy

hobbityme

01-16-2004, 06:52 PM

Just as we were mentioning Sean/Elijah/Oscar thing...

Here's what Elijah actually thinks about the whole thing:

This is from Cinema Confidential

Q: How do you feel about Sean Astin possibly getting an Oscar nomination for his role?

ELIJAH: The man deserves it. Its an incredible, tour de force performance. Hes absolutely brilliant. He deserves anything he gets. He makes me cry so many times and hes so wonderful to work with and a dear friend. I support him, I want everything for him.

You can read the whole interview here:
http://www.cinecon.com/news.php?id=0312171

Rather sweet of him I say!

Just a separate question, where can I find the link to the SFX interview that's being mentioned lately???

tgshaw

01-16-2004, 07:15 PM

hobbityme--Well, I just have to say I'm shocked :eek: ;) at some of the language in that interview... I mean... "pretty unique"??!!! :eek: :eek: I don't think I've ever caught Elwood in a grammar mistake before!! :D And he says it twice!! :p

ainon

01-17-2004, 03:46 AM

Originally posted by Moondancer
We get subtitles (thank God for small mercies). The only bad part of it is that I live in a country where 3 languages are spoken, but mainly 2: Dutch and French. So, a lot of the movies have subtitles (not all of them) in 2 languages and that takes up image space.

Same here.

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/ayat.JPG

But that's the pirates' subtitling. Theatrical subtitles are smaller and lower. Well, you get used to reading and watching at the same time so you feel like you're missing The Eyes. You make yourself stop reading the subtitles, and then you miss Pippin's throat in the scene where Gandalf talks about death. It's very difficult business watching movies.

Then you get the real DVD and can presumably watch the screen clear off all words! The joy! And you want to leave the English subtitles on anyway so you can really read what they're saying. :rolleyes: :p

Awww, whiteling, it's okay. Don't suppose it's screen-capable ... ? ;) And according to TORn, Charlie Rose interview with Elijah & Sean has been archived: http://www.charlieroseshow.com/archives/archive.shtm . Streaming file. Hmmph. :mad: :p

Thanks for the articles, hobbityme! Grumpy, can't get to yours. :confused:

Saw the film again today, and no thanks to Maeg and Alyon :p I spent too much time concentrating on just how Gollum bites invisible Frodo's finger off. I realised that Gollum must have grabbed at the Ring and tried to loosen it, then couldn't bother with the trouble of Frodo fighting him off and so bit the finger clean off - he gets the Ring and gets rid of Frodo. So there. No shrinking Ring thing going on, and perfectly reasonable gory stump of pulsating blood for all to see. I'm proud to be able to report this, even if I am too lazy to come up with new sentences that do not keep using the word ''off'. :D

Prim

01-17-2004, 04:33 AM

even if I am too lazy to come up with new sentences that do not keep using the word ''off'.

Dang it. I'm never going to be able to see that scene in quite the same way again!!! ;) :D :D :D

Lady Wendy

01-17-2004, 04:41 AM

Hello again,

Haven't had much time to post lately, so now I have to catch up a bit...
Blossom,
I could scream when I see him labelled a 'whimp.' Frodo's fear and apprehension is a very real reaction to the situations he finds himself in -

I went off to our Pub quiz recently, and a friend there mentioned that he had just been to see ROTK the previous night, and liked it very much, but he thought the ending was interminably long, and that he could have cheerfully thrown Frodo off the edge into the fires of Mt Doom itself, he was THAT irritated with him...( Grrrr ! )

So I have to agree with you that not everyone GETS Frodo and his personal quest at all...I didn't get into any kind of deep discussion with him about this because the quiz was just starting and, frankly, I really don't think anything would have pursuaded him that Frodo had any redeeming features at all !!!
Therefore, I have to regretfully agree with you and Ainon about there being just the right amount of Frodo-angst at the end of ROTK, for your average cinema-goer, ( in fact, too much for some, as I've just illustrated )...however. come the SE DVD and that will be a different story, methinks....Yes, I want MUCH more Frodo-suffering, and I want it made absolutely clear where he is sailing off to at the Grey Havens, and why...
Of course Frodo was a hero... even though he ultimately failed in what he was aiming to do, he still got the Ring THERE, which is more than most people would have been able to do, and nearly killed himself with the effort...
How can ANYONE not get this ???

Maybe we've all been reading far too much Fan-fiction ( can you do that ??? Can you ever have too much :D ??? )

Moondancer,
Welcome to this thread...I, too, am very new here, but I DO like it...so many like-minded ladies, and the discussions are so much better than the all-too-frequent swooning threads that are peopled by little girlies who can't string two words together without swooning in the process :D :D :D...Yes, you'll like it here...

I thought your revelations about Elijah and Macaulay Kulkin were absolutely amazing...I had no idea about this little saga, as EJW never ever refers to it...a bad memory, possibly ? ( he has said. however, that he pitied M.K. for the way he was pushed into the whole acting arena, and very thankful for the way his Mum brought him up to see that the important things in life wasan't being famous or earning shedloads of cash for being just a pretty face ) It's unbelievable that parents' ambitions for their offspring can reach new lows like this...how Elijah was used as blackmail bait was truly despicable, imo...

Erendis,
still unsure how Elijah would handle Broadway though. He's very good at being himself when on stage, but could he project a subtle character on stage? I'm not sure.

I would LOVE for him to come to London and star in something in the West End here...( we've been having a whole wave of Hollywood stars over to do this, courtesy of a particular agent who is specialising in this )...but I agree that at the moment, all we've seen is how he CAN handle a live audience while being himself...but I think that maybe that is harder to do than hide behind the persona of a character in a play, don't you think ?
He was asked once, in an interview, whether he would consider doing stage acting at any time...and his reply went along the lines of
"Yes, I will have to face my personal demons sometime...it's good for me and will test me out ...I like jobs that stretch me as an actor "
So, looks like we'll be seeing him up on that theatre stage as soon as he gets up his nerve...and now that he's faced live audiences at various conventions and at the likes of SNL, then maybe this will happen sooner rather than later...

Uh-oh..Real Life intervening..gotta go
Will be back later to edit again with something else that I wanted to say !!!

Moondancer

01-17-2004, 05:45 AM

Originally posted by Lady Wendy
I thought your revelations about Elijah and Macaulay Kulkin were absolutely amazing...I had no idea about this little saga, as EJW never ever refers to it...a bad memory, possibly ?
I have a feeling that Elijah doesn't like to dwell on those kind of things. Certainly not because if he talks about it - how they used him to get to Macauley - it might cast a dark shadow on Macauley himself and Elijah had a good time with him when they did The Good Son together (or so it seems after reading a couple of interviews about it). Macauley was as much a victim of it as he was.
As others have said, I think that this is why Elijah praises his mother so much. He has seen the other side of the coin, by watching how Macauley was raised and used.

I wonder how Elijah deals with bad reviews, bad comments, ignorant comments,...
I have a feeling that he's better at it than I am. I feel a bit overprotective whenever I read negative comments about him.
Reading his interviews, I think that he has a good head on his shoulders and ...what's more important: a very strong identity, a very clear image of himself. Because of that, he can read positive and negative commments without it changing his image of himself.
I mean, a lot of those stars seem to depend on the image others have of them. Their identity and their own image of themselves as an actor (or singer,...) depends a lot on what others think of them. A lot of those Hollywood stars seem to be rather insecure.
I'm not saying that Elijah doesn't have doubts or anything but he seems to have a clear identity of himself without needing others to confirm that.
That's also an observation that Sean Astin made, isn't it? I think it's a huge asset and one that not many of the bigger stars have.
Many of the stars are so unsure underneath that 'cool' image.

About wanting to throw Frodo into the fires...
I really think that people have trouble seeing that much vulnerability on a silver screen.
We are used to seeing big emotions from children, but as we grow up, we learn to shield our emotions because it's safer that way. Showing your emotions make you a bit vulnerable and people are very afraid of that.
I think that some people (and certainly more men than women) have a bit of trouble identifying with Frodo because we have learned to hide our emotions and it throws them a bit ...to see an actor who can portray these emotions so well.
But, most of the comments I have seen of Elijah's Frodo have been very positive.:)

G.N.S?.... Where? .....*clicks on Grumpy's link without success* :(
Grumpy...can't see it either.

Originally posted by ainon
[B]Then you get the real DVD and can presumably watch the screen clear off all words! The joy! And you want to leave the English subtitles on anyway so you can really read what they're saying.
Yep, happens to me too. :rolleyes: :)
It's really difficult to ignore the subtitles, isn't it? Even if you have the option to switch them off on the DVD.

Edit for a couple of EJW movie warnings:
- message to possible lurkers from Flanders, Belgium.
they're showing "The Adventures Of Huck Finn" on tv tomorrow afternoon (sunday, VT4)
- they're also showing "The Faculty" on the BBC (this evening).

wood

01-17-2004, 06:48 AM

grumpy:

i cant see the link either. what is wrong?

Ariel

01-17-2004, 08:11 AM

Grumpy, are those the shots from the old Premiere mag? I have those scanned if they are...

If this (http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/Darlingboy.jpg) is one of the ones you are refering to, I do have the rest, including the G.N.S. through sheer, black chiffon... :rolleyes:

Personally, I adore the above shot... being the angst maven that I am. It was my first avatar back at the blue place... *sniff*.

Ariel

Lady Wendy

01-17-2004, 09:24 AM

OK people,

G.N.S?.... Where? .....*clicks on Grumpy's link without success*

Seems we have a little bit of a broken link here....let the link-fairy put it right :D :D :D !!!...

Enjoy !!!

Elijah pics...Yummm!! (http://www.the-movie-times.com/thrsdir/actors/gallery/galleryThumbs.mv?ewood+1)

Moondancer,
Yes, you're probably right about Elijah getting on well with M.K....he was good friends with him when they did "The Good Son" together, and, somehow, whether it's all part of the star-good-behaviour-in-public syndrome, or whether it's a genuine part of his persona, he doesn't seem to be the type to rubbish anyone else in his profession, in the Press or anywhere else for that matter...it's just not a professional way to act, and I think Elijah is nothing if not professional in his attitude to his work and his co-stars.

Now then, apologoies to you all because this has surely been discussed in here before, probably a long time ago...

Well, I finally saw "The Ice Storm" a couple of nights ago...
I must say, it was a very emotionally charged film, if you know what I mean - full of strained very-near-the-edge moments....didn't you just want to shake Wendy's mother and tell her to loosen up and SAY what she's thinking, for God's sake ?...( Not surprising her marriage was on the rocks - if I was married to her, I'd probably be having an affair as well, just for some Human contact !!! )
As for Our Lij's character, Mikey Carver, well he was the perfect example of a withdrawn teenager, just on the verge of discovering sex for the first time...you really saw the distance between him and his Parents, no more so than when his Father came home from his business trip and said Hello to both his sons, and Mikey turned around and said
"You were gone ??? "
That to me, spoke volumes...kudos to Elijah's acting skills here...
As for the experimental kiss in the empty swimming-pool, well, I do hope he's improved his kissing technique since that was filmed :D...mind you, I think I read somewhere that this was his very first kiss in a movie, and his mother was on set as well, which he found both embarrassing and off-putting at the time..(Well, it would, wouldn't it ? )
To my mind, he played the awkward, angst-ridden, fumbling teenager to the very best of his ability, which IS considerable, as we know...and the fact that it needed the death of poor Mikey to show everyone just how very selfish they all were being made this film into a masterpiece of angst-ridden relationship drama...

What did you all think of this movie ? I know that tgshaw has done some screencaps-study on her LJ site, which I found interesting, although it'd be really good to see some study into his awkward sex-scene with Christina Ricci ( who was excellent, as always ) ...don't you think ?
(Hint, hint !! )

honeyelf

01-17-2004, 11:01 AM

I can't stay long. Have to go to work. :mad:

To say Ice Storm was depressing is putting mildly.

One thing that really struck me was the way the Kevin Klein and Sigourney Weaver characters couldn't tell their children what was right because they would have had to examine their own lives in order to do so. So they hedged around, acted outradged in one moment, then once the initial flash of horror had gone, retreated to mush-mouthed platitudes about choosing what's right. (Or in KK's case saying that Mikey just wasn't the right one. ) It was very true to the whole social millieu of the 70's.

Elijah was fantastic as always. Loved that science report scene. It smacked of a child so battered by the morally degenerate situation around him that he'd retreated to aplace where he could experience anything without allowing it to hurt him; life was just a meaningless string of sensations.

Ariel, I love that "dirty" picture you linked to above! His eyes are so blue and it's just so sexy. Ugh. That was very nearly swooning! :o

Gotta go iron my clothes.

Honey!

wood

01-17-2004, 11:03 AM

yummmi.... great pics some of them i havent seen..
:eek: :eek:

i have seen ice storm a cuple of times, i think its a great movie
its really a movie about realationships betwen parents and
teenage about to find out about ther bodys and sexualiti.
i think the actors where all very god in this movie.:) :)

oh i forgott the kiss in the swimmingpool maybe spolie!!! if you have seen
try seventeen the kiss between him and franka ponte
was totally diffrent:k :k :k

tgshaw

01-17-2004, 11:11 AM

Originally posted by Lady Wendy
Now then, apologoies to you all because this has surely been discussed in here before, probably a long time ago...
;) Your point being...? :confused: Ohhh, like we might not want to talk about it again? Not likely :p !

...if I was married to her, I'd probably be having an affair as well, just for some Human contact !!!
...and then to not get it from his mistress, either, who's in the affair for the sex and walks out (and drives off!) when he wants to talk!

As for Our Lij's character, Mikey Carver, well he was the perfect example of a withdrawn teenager...
And, I'd say more than withdrawn--he's really created his own little world, in which some things can be perfect, unlike the one around him. (His appreciation for geometry reminded me of how my fascination with the periodic table sucked me into science--such order and perfection that's, on some level, real! Although as time went on, I came to prefer the messiness and unpredictability of biology :) .)

As for the experimental kiss in the empty swimming-pool, well, I do hope he's improved his kissing technique since that was filmed...
Well, now, that's something that did get discussed quite a bit here--the general conclusion, I believe, being that the awkward kissing is part of the character. I did notice one new thing just within the last couple of weeks, which maybe everyone else saw immediately. I hadn't realized that in the swimming pool scene, before the kissing starts, Mikey puts his gum behind his ear! I LOL when I saw that--it's just so Mikey! When I'd seen the scene previously, I thought he was scratching his head or fiddling with his hair. I was so impressed by this, in fact, that it ended up in the "feature" on my website about winning the attention of women (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id205.htm):p .

What did you all think of this movie ?
I think it's an excellent movie--not easy to watch, both because of the negativity and because of things that are being done and communicated "below the radar," you might say, and aren't always immediately apparent. At least one review I read called Ang Lee's direction "heavy handed," but I thought it was perfectly suited to the movie. This is one example (along with Bumblebee, IMVHO, although the Ice Storm's superior) where a movie stands head and shoulders above the book it was taken from.

The acting is wonderful across the board (and in answer to your closing question, that very much includes Christina Ricci :) ). I'd love to see Elijah have another opportunity--or opportunities!--to work with Ang Lee. In an interview just after the movie was made, Elijah said the two of them worked together to figure out just who Mikey was (the book gives no insight into the character at all). And, aside from Frodo, IMHO Mikey's the most intriguing character Elijah's played. Also the most difficult for him, according to that same interview, which says to me that Ang Lee's one of those directors who can push him to the boundaries of his talent.

I know that tgshaw has done some screencaps-study on her LJ site...
That makes me sound more web-savvy than I am! I'm totally mystified by live journals and blogs, and would have no idea how to even maneuver someone else's, much less have one of my own. (In fact, I sat looking at that "LJ" for some time, trying to figure out if it was a new way to write "Lij" :o , before I realized what it stood for.) Nope, mine's just an ordinary, regular website. -- I do have the option with my webhost to add a discussion forum, if that ever seems useful, but it seems this forum takes care of any needs at present.

I have had some requests for more Ice Storm caps--Mikey's display of football prowess :( is one scene that's been asked for. I do try to spread things out somewhat among Elijah's different movies, but will try to get back to the Ice Storm before too long (probably not much from the specific scene Lady Wendy brought up, since I try to keep things PG--although one cap from it also made it onto the "winning the attention of women" page ;) .)

Somewhat along the same line, I'd really like to do something from The War, but don't know where to start. Are there any suggestions for a shot/scene that might be good for frame-by-frame research :) ?

wood

01-17-2004, 11:16 AM

what a pic Ariel have you more like that:eek: :eek: :eek:

Moondancer

01-17-2004, 11:45 AM

Jeez...I love this thread.
I can't bring myself to skip a page or even one post. It's intriguing.

I'm on page 86 at the moment, in the midst of a religious discussion concerning Ash Wednesday.
As a side note, deluby posted this:
From Oscarwatch, LOTR forum, posted by Bob Burns:
I believe that Wood has made a real, personal sacrifice playing Frodo - that he has left something of himself in his journey as an actor playing his character that he will never recover. I feel pity for his Frodo and pity for him. It is my opinion that his portrayal will not be understood until the movie is complete and that when it is complete it will be seen as important.

Wood does have the Hollywood resume to qualify for a major award - the problem is that he is young. Best Actor almost always goes to guys that are 40 or more. But I feel strongly - as I believe PJ and the rest of the cast will as well - that Wood is the most deserving member of the cast.

Wood's role, though, is an Oscar role. McKellen has been very complementary of Wood's work - and I think he was referring to ROTK. Pushing Frodo and Sam makes all the sense in the world.

The critics were pretty mean to Wood in TTT - if that doesn't change he won't have much of a chance. This is part of the sacrifice he is making to play the character. People - particularly men - like to see action heroes be more manly/studly. Frodo's heroic qualities are in some ways feminine. Part of the negative reaction to Wood's portrayal of Frodo has been sexist - the kind of sexism that says that men/boys have to conform to certain stereotypes. Compare Frodo to Luke Skywalker for example.

Few young actors get Best Actor nods - they get some supporting actor nods - and the character Frodo is a character that can create ambivalent feelings - particularly in men. But I still think they have to - must - back him completely for a best Actor nod.
Some history - Frodo is based on an historical figure named Frodo, a Germanic king who was a contemporary of Jesus. King Frodo fostered peace and prosperity for his people, but he was not revered in northern legends, he was considered weak, ineffectual, because he was not greedy for power and war-loving.
That's why Wood may not be respected for his portrayal of Frodo - the character Frodo disturbs strong unacknowledged prejudices that, unfortunately, we still carry with us.
That corresponds exactly with what I think only better written :) :)

The Ice Storm. It's one of those uncomfortable movies, heart breaking at times but...it's one of my favourite EJW roles.
He really needs a director who is willing and able to push him.
As somebody else in this thread said: an 'average' performance of Elijah corresponds with a 'good' performance of a lot (if not most) other actors.
I think that a French movie director would be a good experience for him. They like to take a different view on things.
I wish that I could analyze the movie Ice Storm further but I only saw it once (rented from the video store) a couple of years ago.
I ordered it through Amazon a couple of days ago.

Tgshaw...I checked out your site (screencaps...study of microexpressions of Elijah Wood). Very interesting. The "Osgiliath: Iternal Battle" series is fascinating.