Hello naiad and welcome! :)

Originally posted by naiad
Ainon - That sequence of Frolijah's expressions changing - without a single physical movement - from innocence and fear to anger and obsession is incredible work from EW. How I wish it could be recognized publically! (Maybe could post this over at the Harem thread?)

Sure, go ahead, although actually those caps are from the classicxf.com site. Still waiting for the rest of the movie to go up there too. ;)

What really gives me goosebumps in anticipation for RotK is thinking how EW will do the scene in CU. Now how many emotions are we talking about there? And will PJ keep the camera on EW all through? Cutting to Sam to show Sam's reaction will also be necessary, and I love Sam, I do, and yet I don't want to miss even a second of Frodo's expressions ...


Originally posted by Maeglian
ainon, you're the interview and quote specialist of the Faculty, do you remember any others?

What?! You're giving me homework?! While I'm still at work?! <grumble grumble grumble> But okay, this is troubling because I do know where to look up what Fourish quoted:

It's from Starburst (http://www.visimag.com/starburst/293_feat01.htm)
One of Wood’s most challenging moments in The Fellowship of the Ring occurred when Frodo watches in horror as Gandalf perishes at the hands of the demonic Balrog. “I already had it my head that I had to be extremely affected by Gandalf’s death,” says Wood, “since he was my great friend, really like a family member to Frodo. Well, Peter gave me a interesting piece of direction that day. He said, ‘I want your reaction and the look on your face, to scare the audience, because they’ve never seen Frodo look like this before, or be in this much despair’. I felt that was a really good piece of direction, because it drove me to make the shot far more profound and more heartbreaking. It was an interesting thing to get my head around, because it was open-ended enough, that I could play with that thought and make it into whatever I wanted, within the guidelines that Peter had given me.”



Rikka - your Godmother's one special lady. :D Thanks for the details on what Method Acting is all about. I'm a fan of Al Pacino too, btw, although I think he's gotten rather repetitive in some of his work of late.


Originally posted by tg
It's what I thought of when Ed Burns, in the AW director's commentary, mentioned that while some of the other actors changed the wording of dialogue so it was closer to "their own words" (after being approved by the control-freak director, of course), when Elijah had the chance to do the same, he didn't want to change the script. Which makes sense--I'd think changing the dialogue, or any other aspect of the character, so the character was more like himself would be something Elijah as an actor wouldn't even think of or want. Another "anti-method" aspect of his acting? He doesn't want to insert himself into the character, but rather wants to "serve" the character he's playing?

So what else did Ed Burns say about our boy? ;) Very interesting idea you're suggesting, tg, which somehow kinda goes with what EW talked about here, from SciFi.com (http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue297/interview2.html), in response to the question
How much did you rely on the books to form your characterization of Frodo?
Well, surprisingly, I didn't use the books that much. I started reading them when I got there—and an interesting thing happened. Not a lot of the actors felt this way, because a lot of the actors used the books constantly. Everybody had their own perspective on how they were going to work, and how they would achieve their character.

For me, getting to the books and starting to read the books felt kind of redundant, because I was so involved in the world every day, and experiencing in real time the emotions that Frodo was going through, that then to consult the book and read the book, it was almost too much—especially since the book was actually much more dense than what we were actually trying to accomplish.

From that same interview,

What was the most difficult scene for you?

I always think that those moments where the Ring is starting to take hold have to manifest themselves physically and, more challenging, how is that done time and time again, and how does that progress, because it can't be the same thing every time. You have to see a progression. That's the real challenge in playing a character like this: You have to see Frodo's progression through the course of these movies, and how he descends.

No real rhyme or reason to quote that. Getting ready for the RotK anticipation buzz, that's all. :p And well, what he says about it not being the same thing every time. I think he's pulled that off so far, in the two movies. No two Ring trance scenes are exactly the same.


Deluby posted a nice big version of this before, but I just found where she must have gotten it from. ;) Only now we know what they're rehearsing.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1807950.jpg



Congrats on the 500th post, tg, and on the avatar-earning post, Tathar!

And because this is too lovely to not have on this page too:

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frosweet.jpg

{{{Faculty}}} It's the company that keeps me here too. :)

Originally posted by ainon
One of Wood’s most challenging moments in The Fellowship of the Ring occurred when Frodo watches in horror as Gandalf perishes at the hands of the demonic Balrog. “I already had it my head that I had to be extremely affected by Gandalf’s death,” says Wood, “since he was my great friend, really like a family member to Frodo. Well, Peter gave me a interesting piece of direction that day. He said, ‘I want your reaction and the look on your face, to scare the audience, because they’ve never seen Frodo look like this before, or be in this much despair’. I felt that was a really good piece of direction, because it drove me to make the shot far more profound and more heartbreaking. It was an interesting thing to get my head around, because it was open-ended enough, that I could play with that thought and make it into whatever I wanted, within the guidelines that Peter had given me.”


Great clip there, ainon -- I hadn't read that one before. :eek:

Thanks for the congrats on my avatar-earning post, EE and ainon, :k I feel really like a Faculty member now! :D :rolleyes: :D

And welcome, naiad! The more the merrier! :p

Congratulations on your 500th post, tgshaw!

Originally posted by tgshaw
And, IMHO, Tolkien fits that description better than any other author I know of. He certainly could have kept LotR the children's story it started out to be.

Another author I think fits that style is Madeline L'Engle (A Wrinkle in Time). In one of her books on writing she talks about a kid's novel she'd written (not that she really set out to write kid's novels :D ), about how this character "walked on" out of nowhere in this particular scene and she knew he belonged, so she had to go back and write him in. Having read the book in question, I haven't a clue how she got that far *without* him.

Originally posted by tgshaw

It's what I thought of when Ed Burns, in the AW director's commentary, mentioned that while some of the other actors changed the wording of dialogue so it was closer to "their own words" (after being approved by the control-freak director, of course), when Elijah had the chance to do the same, he didn't want to change the script. Which makes sense--I'd think changing the dialogue, or any other aspect of the character, so the character was more like himself would be something Elijah as an actor wouldn't even think of or want.

Hadn't heard that Ed Burns quote before. :cool:

Interesting. I directed a play-parody I wrote once, all amateur actors (waaaay amateur), one of them told me how hard some of his lines were, I told him he could rewrite them or I'd rewrite them for him so they were easier to say if he'd like, and he completely rejected that idea. He said the lines were difficult, but they were true to the character, and he didn't want them changed. He just had to wrestle with them a bit.

He was my best performer, too, even though he was one of the totally inexperienced ones, and he went on to do some acting in local theatre. People said he should go into acting professionally, but the guy was doing projects for NASA and wasn't interested, LOL!

Originally posted by tgshaw
I don't know quite how to phrase this, but IMHO it could also have something to do with the idea of "serving" the character that Sheryl brought up--it seems to me there's a difference between serving the character and becoming the character, although I wouldn't know how to put it into words :confused: .

I agree, although I can't define it any better than you can. :p I think it's because EW is not pulling that all out of himself, but also looking outside to the character? I mean, he is pulling it out of himself, but he sort of pulls it through the character before acting it.

Or something. When I told one co-writer that I believed in "serving the story," she said, "How do you do that?" "You go where the story wants to go," I explained. She gave me a look. "And you know where it wants to go - how?" "Because it tells me. How the heck do you serve the audience?" "Because they tell me."

Yeah, but they don't tell you *while* you're writing, and they're not there urging you on as you write, sooo... never could quite grasp that whole concept, but mine seemed equally bizarre to my writing partners who served the audience. ;)

Originally posted by peaceweaver

I must say, I am not fond of the pose-y nature of those photos, no matter how nice EW looks in them. I think it is because he isn't really there, but has to be just a mannequin for the clothes. He's not playing a role, he's not playing himself. It just gives me the creeps....

I think you pegged what bothered me about them. It has a very "fashion shoot" feel to it - I thought the one Hobmom posted here kind of interesting, but some of the ones in the Hug thread are even more... distant and empty. Beautiful... but, yeah. Creepy.

Rikka,
My eldest went to TTT with her godmother this past Sunday, too. :cool:

Originally posted by Rikka

He's too professional, and also a specific of his acting talent gives him this ability – to express extreme feelings and to play people in "the edge" emotional conditions... But by acting Frodo he, for sure, got some scars on his soul… And it will be difficult for him to go "out" of Frodo's character, to "get rid" of him in his professional life…

Beautifully put. EW says that Frodo will always be a part of him (and the way he says it implies, to me at least, that this is not typical of the roles he's played). I particularly like Rikka's point that EW has the specific ability "to play people in 'the edge' emotional conditions'" - oh, yes! Totally agree. The boy was born to play angst! :D

Originally posted by Goldenberry

Rikka, if one more non-native-English-speaker apologizes for her flawless English, I'll.......think of something to provide appropriate punishment. Like making you read a messageboard full of teenage IM-speak.

Make a note - contact Goldie next time I can't think of "logical consequences" when one of the kids acts up.... ;)

Originally posted by Rikka

While Fro is so childish here... A baby... Sincerely saying, I prefer another elder and more tragic Frodo - from Osgiliath scenes...

Hmmm. I love that photo, but I don't think it's 100% Frodo (most of the publicity shots I see too much EW peeking through). Yet it's very close... I think the problem is that it's Frodo a bit later in the LOTR than his clothes, if that makes sense. His clothes are new and pristine, but there's something in his eyes, some glimmer of knowing, that belongs a bit later in the series - the look would be right after he got stabbed, after he got to Rivendell, but that looks like a "Frodo setting out" photo to me, and the expression isn't quite right...

Tathar,
I had forgotten that EW said he liked creative writing until you mentioned it. We've discussed him directing before, too - I wonder what sort of movie he'd produce if he wrote, directed, AND starred!

Am I hallucinating, or did you have another avatar for a minute before you got the lovely jacket one?

Hi, naiad, and welcome! I didn't even realize that was your first post here until Tathar said "welcome." :o I guess I'm so used to seeing you in the Harem I forgot you hadn't posted here. So who is Fiona Shaw? The name is vaguely familiar, but all I know is that she's a British actress, and presumably a good one. Has she been in anything I might have seen?

ainon,
I see I'm not the only one who has noticed you've got a major stash of info somewhere. ;) Get busy on that homework! :p

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
Hmmm. I love that photo, but I don't think it's 100% Frodo (most of the publicity shots I see too much EW peeking through). Yet it's very close... I think the problem is that it's Frodo a bit later in the LOTR than his clothes, if that makes sense. His clothes are new and pristine, but there's something in his eyes, some glimmer of knowing, that belongs a bit later in the series - the look would be right after he got stabbed, after he got to Rivendell, but that looks like a "Frodo setting out" photo to me, and the expression isn't quite right...

I see what you mean... but it goes up there with my top three favorite pictures of Frodo, I think-- if only for the sake of that lovely outfit! (We are allowed to swoon over inanimate objects, aren't we?) :D :rolleyes:

Am I hallucinating, or did you have another avatar for a minute before you got the lovely jacket one?

Don't worry, you're not hallucinating! :D My original avatar -- which lasted about 20 minutes, to be more correct :rolleyes: -- was a pic of Frodo on Amon Hen. But I just love that jacket-pic, so I changed it. :)

Edit: I was just browsing, and I came across this pic:
I know it's an old one, but it reminds me of the "Frosweet" one we're all so enamored with at the moment. :D And of course this one isn't nearly as lovely as the latter, but it's pretty cute anyway. :) :rolleyes:

Welcome, Naiad! :)


Tathar, what a cute and beautiful avatar! And........ and..... I've been quoted in a sig! Yay! :cool:


Sheryl, Fiona Shaw used to act with the Royal Shakespeare in Stratford upon Avon, I know her from a "performing Shakespeare" tome I have. But that was back in 1985, so I don't know whether she's still there.

From EJW / ainon
......how does that progress, because it can't be the same thing every time. You have to see a progression.That's a good reminder! I wonder, do you also have available that snip from AICN where Harry talks about visiting the Mordor set when EJW was wearing those cloudy contact lenses? That sounded *very* creepy when read in the context of the above quote.... a scene where the Ring's impact has progressed very, very far, and where EJW is acting that out, just with his face and body language, without saying anything. I hope that little scene makes it into the film. (Shudders)

From ainon
What really gives me goosebumps in anticipation for RotK is thinking how EW will do the scene in CU. Now how many emotions are we talking about there? And will PJ keep the camera on EW all through? Oh, the anticipation! :eek: In addition, I'm also wondering how far PJ will take the otherwise established "Show, don't tell" policy in relation to CU. There's pretty angsty stuff that isn't shown in the book, only told by Frodo to Sam. I'm wondering whether we'll get to see in real time how Gorbag and Shagrat questions Frodo till he feels he's going mad, "standing over me, gloating, fingering their knives. I'll never forget their claws and eyes.". And later on, how the orcs quarrel over the Mithril Shirt, and poor Frodo lies there, "terrified". I'd like to see that! OTOH, I don't think the films have been very successful in presenting the orcs as frightening, dark personalities (except Lurtz.) The scene where Ugluk and Grishnak quarrel over food, and whether Merry and Pippin, or their legs, should be eaten, comes across as darkish comic relief rather than angst, IMO. And it *could* have been so angsty-spooky! If Shagrat and Gorbag are going to be like that, I'd rather not see much of them. But if they are scary and believable characters: Bring them on! :eek:

From Deluby
When is Bravo ever gonna have EW on their "Inside the Actor's Studio" program? What does one have to do to qualify to be on the show? IIRC even Ben Affleck has been on that show already. I recently watched a Ben Affleck scene where all I could think was:"Thank the stars that it isn't EJW having to act out this horror!" It was in a film called Dogma, one of those "Jay and Silent Bob" vehicles. I only watched the last half hour, and that just because the score was so LotR-like that I *had* to check the credits to verify whether Howard Shore had made the score. (Yes, he had.) I won't pretend that I understood the plot..... but Affleck played an angel who had been thrown out of heaven, and was trying to get back in again through a dogmatic loophole requiring him to kill a lot of people and becoming human. :confused:

The scene I'm talking of went as follows: BA-as-angel descends from the sky on large, white feather-y wings, and lands in front of a church, with a lot of corpses dotting the ground. Another character grabs an automatic rifle and starts firing at the angel, repeatedly hitting his wings. The bullets' hurtful impact is shown in very drawn-out detail; feathers flying, blood spurting, tendons and bones snapping......... Eventually, the angel is standing there with just small stumps of the wings on his back, still freshly squirting blood! :rolleyes: It was awful.... I hope EJW will *never* have to make something like that believable to an audience.

Those pics of Elijah ARE from Vogue... the magazine of far out, sometimes creepy fashion photos. So I kept that in mind when appreciating the simple gorgeousness of them. Elijah I believe does not pose for those type of photos he 'acts' for them. And rather than being creeped out by them myself I found them somehow inspirational and full of plot bunnies. And I was thinking I'd love to see him in some kind of movie where he could look like those pics and also that would have a suitably off-center, Outter Limits type of story to it.

So I am developing one of my plot bunnies into a screenplay and I'd love it if somebody would like to beta-read it for me and give me gentle criticism and advice and I hope approval. I've just started it but if anyone would be interested in reading what I have so far, let me know.

Maeglian, :D! You're surprised to be quoted in a sig when you wrote that hilarious "making-of-TTT-ending" scene? That little bit I used was the only one of my favorite parts I could really use without being forced to quote whole paragraphs of it. ;) :rolleyes:

And look at this! A bigger version of the TC/Frosweet pic!! :eek: I just found this on Maggie's Elijah Wood Site (http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/elijah/index.html) (it's actually a pretty good picture site, not too much "teenage stuff" *shudder*) Now I've found a picture to post... and within a few minutes I'll most likely be informed that this pic has already been posted before. :rolleyes:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/fellowship15/lotr141.jpg

I'm sorry, I know this isn't allowed, but *THUD* Tathar trouts herself for breaking Faculty rules and hides in a corner.

I thought PJs orcs (the Moria orcs in particular) were scary as hell in FoTR, not quite as scary in TTT once they started talking. Truthfully, though, I find Tolkien's orcs are even more comic relief than PJs---more like slow-witted streetcorner thugs than monsters. It will be really interesting to see if PJ has a lot of orc/Frodo interaction in RoTK, and how he chooses to handle it so that they orcs really scare the daylights out of us---and poor Frodo as well.

Sheryl: Before landing the part of Mrs Dursley in the HP films, Fiona Shaw was probably best known for the fuss when she played the title role in Richard II

Tathar--yes, that's one of the really early pics. One of the first two or three to show us Elijah in costume, IIRC (and one of the first to give us a glimpse of that green door). But I've never seen it so big! I actually like it better than the one that's been posted a few times on the last couple of pages--not that the latter isn't a nice picture, but there's something about his wig there that IMO looks like... a wig. As if he hasn't quite figured out how to wear it yet :confused: . It's something about the way the hair falls over his forehead that just doesn't look natural to me.

Anyway, congratulations on reaching "avatar status" :) .

And welcome Naiad :) .

from Sheryl:
Another author I think fits that style is Madeline L'Engle (A Wrinkle in Time). In one of her books on writing she talks about a kid's novel she'd written (not that she really set out to write kid's novels ), about how this character "walked on" out of nowhere in this particular scene and she knew he belonged, so she had to go back and write him in. Having read the book in question, I haven't a clue how she got that far *without* him.
...kind of like Strider (well, "Trotter" at that point--and a hobbit!) sitting in the dark corner of the Prancing Pony. JRRT said when he first saw the character there he had no more idea who he was than the four hobbits did.

Re the Vogue pics--From past "episodes" I've kind of gotten the feeling Elijah rather enjoys those kinds of shoots, and he's certainly better in them than most actors are. Must be that early modeling experience ;) .



From ainon--
quote:
------------------------------------------------------
What was the most difficult scene for you?

I always think that those moments where the Ring is starting to take hold have to manifest themselves physically and, more challenging, how is that done time and time again, and how does that progress, because it can't be the same thing every time. You have to see a progression. That's the real challenge in playing a character like this: You have to see Frodo's progression through the course of these movies, and how he descends.
---------------------------------------------------------

And you know what boggles my mind? That progression wasn't shot in order! He had to know at exactly what point Frodo was at each step of the way, and be able to pull up whichever "step" was needed for the shooting schedule.


deluby--No, I wasn't the one who contacted Bravo. Since I don't ahve cable TV and have never seen Bravo, much less that particular program, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have volunteered for that job (not that I could trust my memory about it without that "clue" :rolleyes: ).

To whoever it was :o who mentioned Ang Lee's influence on Elijah's ability to connect with his characters--from what I've read, too, I think that's probably true. I remember reading that they worked a lot together on Mikey. IMHO, Ang Lee was one of the directors that really knew how to get some great acting out of Elijah--wonder if they'll work together again.

I just got a notice on my computer that they're shutting the system down for maintenance like right now... gotta go :eek: !

Hi all :)

Welcome to Naiad :)


{{{hugs for Maeg, hope you're feeling better hun}}}

Maeg - is it just me or has that orc on the left got a beard?!

EE - I don't tell many of my friends about my *cough*internet activities*cough* (hey that sounds a bit dodgy! :p ) besides Glowein who posts at CoE, only a couple of them know I'm a member of LOTR forums. So it's a secret :D

Here's an Elijah interview that I found whilst noseying around on the net, it's an oldie from 1996 - interesting :) I don't think it's been put in here before, but I wanted to post it as it's insightful.


Elijah is interviewed by Sheila Bapat

Although Elijah Wood has been noted by critics as being "The most confident actor of his generation," his view of himself is very different. I spoke with Elijah about his perspective of himself and his career, as well as his views on the whole "MTV Generation."

Q. What do you think has been your most challenging role so far?
A. My most recent character, in a film called The Ice Storm, was one of the most difficult; this guy, Mikey, was really spacey and more complicated than the outside view. Being hard to figure out, it was hard to play him.

Q. How was he spacey?
A. He thinks a lot, and he's always somewhere else besides reality. But he sees things better than other people see them. Another really challenging role for me was probably Stu Simmons in The War.

Q. The War was a very deep movie. How does acting in movies like that effect you emotionally?
A. You have to put a lot of yourself into it, and conjure up emotions. Some actors try to think unhappy thoughts and make themselves sad. I don't really do that, but I try to make my whole body sad. I just completely put myself into the role while the camera is rolling.

Q. There are lots of young male actors your age, like Jonathan Taylor Thomas. Is it very competitive for you?
A. No. I'm not competing for roles. I think others create competition between us. Like [during The Good Son], Macauley Culkin and I supposedly had some competition, but it wasn't true. For me, acting is finding good material and doing the best I can at it, not beating another actor.

Q. People must always come up to you and say, "We've watched you grow up on film." Does it bother you that you're life seems so accessible to people?
A. It's kind of like you're under a microscope. It amazes me, because I don't realize how closely people watch me. But what they're observing is not personal - it's just a character.

Q. How have you changed as an actor from your first big role in the film Avalon to today?
A. Over the last 3-4 years, I've viewed acting in a more serious light. I think I love it more now, and I have an even greater appreciation for it. Every role since Avalon has been a step up, and has pushed me into the adult acting area.

Q. What type of support do you get from your family?
A. I'm not pushed into acting. The support I get from my family is wonderful. If I wanted to quit, they would support that decision too.

Q. Have you ever done anything to make your parents upset?
A. Little things, like if I don't feed the dogs or something. Sometimes I'll be mean to my sister, but she can be annoying [laughing]. Just brotherly things, nothing specific.

Q. How does school fit into your schedule?
A. I have a home study program. I work half on the Internet, and half with books. English has always been my favorite, because I love writing, creative writing and poetry are a lot of fun for me. I love reading, too. I have so many favorite books, like Dracula and The Hunchback of Notre Dame.

Q. I heard you're a straight A student. True?
A. Well, yeah, but on my last report card I had a few A minuses. I just want to have sthe best grades possible.

Q. Why are you concerned about your education?
A. A good education, especially English, can contribute greatly to an actor's perspective. An education also makes you a well-rounded person.

Q. What if someone told you they wanted to quit school to pursue acting full time?
A. I would say no. Education is too valuable. It forms who you're going to be, and helps you excel at more things. I guess I'm just a believer in staying in school. Quitting school is giving up, in a way.

Q. Our generation has been called the MTV Generation, Generation X, etc. Are these fair and accurate?
A. I think they're stereotypical. Yeah, there are slackers, but there are millions of people who really work hard and pursue things. Those labels don't apply to everyone.

Q. Movies have gotten a bad rap for being too violent and profane these days. Is this fair?
A. The people need to be responsible and not be influenced so much by movies. As far as content goes in films, the morals of the people have definitely declined. I mean, even just four years ago, movies that are rated NC-17 were unheard of.

Q. Do movies reflect society?
A. Yeah, because someone had to write it down - it came from someone's mind, from their surroundings and experiences. I think movies do reflect what we have become, and what we are becoming.

Q. Are there any actors you'd like to work with?
A. Lots! Robin Williams, Kevin Spacey, Tom Hanks, Dustin Hoffman. I'd love to be directed by Kenneth Branagh. He's capable of so much. He really made Shakespeare come alive [in Much Ado About Nothing].

Q. You've been really aloof about the whole dating thing. Why is that?
A. I am sincerely not dating right now, because I don't really have time for it. As far as having a girlfriend, it would have to be someone really special. But it would be a responsibility; I would want to make time for something like that. Also, I don't want to grow up too fast. Childhood is an amazing thing.

Q. How important to you is it to win an Oscar or one of those big awards?
A. Too much importance has been put on the Oscar. An Oscar for me would be a really nice compliment, but I wouldn't think of myself differently. A lot of times, after people win Oscars, they believe they're proven themselves as actors or actresses, when they're only being honored for a particular role. And when you believe you are good, you're not always so good anymore.

Q. Do you believe you're not that good?
A. I can always be better. I'm not bad, but I'm not great. If I stop striving to do better and assume that I've already achieved greatness, I wouldn't continue doing the best I could.

Q. Critics have called you, "the most confident actor" of your generation. How do you respond to praise like that?
A. You know, it doesn't even effect me. I don't understand why. I don't really have an ego at all. That's just a compliment, and it's nice, but I have to keep striving to actually achieve what was said about me.

Q. Would you do another film with animals?
A. Yeah, I love animals; they can be easier to work with than people. [In Flipper], I would have gotten right in with the dolphins on the first day if they asked me to.

Q. How do you deal with it when a film doesn't do well?
A. It doesn't really bother me that much. I'm emotionally attached to the film that I do, but more so to the role that I played. How the film does in the box office is only at the back of my mind.

Q. Do you want to direct?
A. I really do, but I hate to say that, because it is kind of jumping on the bandwagon. I just love film making altogether, and I have a great respect for it. I love creating a story, putting it on film, and executing it in a beautiful way. And I decided I want o be a director on my own, not because everyone else is doing it.

Q. What qualities in a person do you most admire?
A. I like honesty, and people that are real,who don't buy into all the bad stuff [like drugs], but who are really just themselves. It's sad because a lot of kids these days feel they have to be a certain way in order to be popular. I think being different, being against the grain of society, is the greatest thing in the world.


Well I hope you're all well and stuff, apologies if I've missed anything (bet there's loads I've not mentioned :o ) as it's been so productive in here of late, lots to see but I'm enjoying it anyways! :)

Goodnight!

Luth x

from deluby
Prim, I'm sorry the comment about giving gift made you feel uncomfortable. Didn't mean to do that at all.
I know this. :) You tossed an idea into cyberspace. This is precisely what we are here for.
So don't ever apologise to me or anyone else here for any idea tossing ever again. Never. Ever. Or ....else ;)

I'm tired and can't think of anything riveting to say except that your thoughts tonight have been very interesting reading and that I get the impression that Ang Lee was a much more hands on and specific director than PJ. But I suspect that by the time EW landed on PJs doorstep a more broad form of direction ( as in: this is the emotion or effect I want, so go find it :rolleyes: ) was probably enough.
I do wonder which directing style Ew found more comfortable to work with.

Childhood is an amazing thing.

Isn't it amazing that a 15 year old would comment on something like that?!!

OT: Re Fiona Shaw: She probably won't thank me for this, but the first thing I ever saw her in, and the thing I remember her for, is in her roll in Three Mean And a Little Lady as the English woman who fancied Tom Selleck!

Re the Orcs (and also OT): That was probably my one major disappointment with TTT that the orcs who captured M&P weren't scary enough. Some of the best angst that came in TTT the book were in M&P's capture and real danger. I didn't feel that at all with the movie and would be the one thing that I would change if I had the oportunity. Yes - not even Osgiliath or The Speach or the Warg Fight or anything else that most people complained about bothered me as much as that. I really hope they get the CU scene right. By the picture above it doesn't seem like Shagrat and Gorbag are that scary, but I suppose you can't really tell in a snap shot like that.

Originally posted by Luthiea
I don't tell many of my friends about my *cough*internet activities*cough* (hey that sounds a bit dodgy! :p ) besides Glowein who posts at CoE, only a couple of them know I'm a member of LOTR forums. So it's a secret :D
There are some people who know I'm in an online "discussion group"--but, no, I haven't mentioned nostril acting to any of them :D ... I guess I must still feel a bit strange about the whole "fandom" thing, as people know I discuss Tolkien online, and Elijah in relation to that--but not as an "entity in himself" :rolleyes: .

A few people at work have my URL, but it's mostly so they can use it when they order stuff from Amazon (which is awfully sweet of them, actually :) ); same for family members. One co-worker is actually interested in the website itself, but just in the "Fiction Fundamentals" section--if he ever strays into the "Elijah Wood Geeks" area, I'm sure I'll hear about it :rolleyes: --and if any of my brothers see it, I know I'll hear about it :D . I don't think anyone would be truly worried about it--it would just give them one more thing to kid me about. Edit: Hmmm... I do have one sister who might be a bit concerned, but--next to my mom--she's the least computer literate member of the family, so maybe I won't have to worry about her until she comes to visit this summer :) .

Thanks for posting that interview, Lutheia. And, EE, IMHO that entire interview is amazing coming from a 15-year-old. If I were going to pull out one line as an example, it would probably be:
A good education, especially English, can contribute greatly to an actor's perspective.

Of course, that interview was a few years ago, but I wonder if Elijah still feels the same way about working with Kenneth Branaugh. If so, "all" we'd have to do is get KB to make a film version of The Tempest, and convince him to cast EW as Ariel... :p

Yes, he was/is very mature for his age! And worldly wise. An old soul, definately :)

Hmmm... I do have one sister who might be a bit concerned, but--next to my mom--she's the least computer literate member of the family, Oh my mum's the same she doesn't even remember how to switch the PC on, and it frustrates her greatly! She was having a go at me before about 'spending so much time on the computer' and she told me to 'stop banging the keyboard' :rolleyes: because she couldn't hear the TV! :D

I've got too much time on my hands :p Was noseying about the net again and found this EW video interview. I've not seen it before. It's at a German site, just click on the link and at the bit at the top where it says 'Suche' type in Elijah Wood and another page will come up. Go to the bottom of the page and there's a section that says multimedia, the interview is there :)

http://www.zdf.de/



I'd missed the Fiona Shaw discussion :p but I just read EE's post and I remember her in TMAALL! She was funny! :D

Hugs,

{{{EW}}}

{{{Faculty}}}

Luhtiea, great interview there -- interesting questions I'd not heard asked before. Although I seem to recall that the "Did you dream about work" one was asked before, and by another German (?) interviewer, incidentally... :p

Originally posted by tgshaw
Of course, that interview was a few years ago, but I wonder if Elijah still feels the same way about working with Kenneth Branaugh. If so, "all" we'd have to do is get KB to make a film version of The Tempest, and convince him to cast EW as Ariel...

I've not read The Tempest...story summarization, please? :D :rolleyes: Knowing tg, there must be some specific reason that Elijah should be cast as Ariel (looks? amount of angst involved?)... ;)

Edit: All right, I've just read an online version (admittedly a silghtly abridged online version...) of The Tempest, and I can definately see why Elijah would make a good Ariel. :D But I also think he could be a good Prince Ferdinand -- 'O father,' said Miranda, in a strange surprise, 'surely that is a spirit. Lord! how it looks about! Believe me, sir, it is a beautiful creature. Is it not a spirit?'

Sound familiar? :p :rolleyes: :D Plenty of angst there, too, as Ferdinand...

Oops :o , sorry, Tathar! I was referring back to a [much] earlier discussion without remembering not everyone was around back then (see how quickly you fit in ;) ?). IIRC, the Ariel discussion was even before the Faculty moved to KD, although I'm not sure of that.

The qualities of Ariel that seemed to fit Elwood included the need for high energy and quick movement in the part, as well as smaller size and even a somewhat androgynous look being preferable (since that discussion, IMHO Elwood has become less androgynous-looking, but he could still probably pull it off better than most actors). Then there's a bit of coincidence in the fact that Christopher Guard, who was the voice of Frodo in the Bakshi movie, played Ariel in a BBC production.

He might as well get some use out of that British accent :p !

-----------

It's been a long time since I've seen the TTT movie, and had decided I'd wait until it moved to the second-run theaters which are not only cheaper but also are closer to where I live. After work yesterday, I really needed something, and came close to getting in the car to head for TTT--but if I'd gone, I wouldn't have made it to bed until about 1 am, which is a bit tough when there's work the next day! Then I remembered Maeg's use of the FotR movie several days ago -- (((Maeg))) . I specifically pulled out the theatrical version DVD because I can just put it in and watch the movie straight through without having to switch disks--and also because it brings back the good memories of seeing it in the theater for the first time, more than the SE does. It's been so long since I've just watched the movie without stopping, repeating something specific, using the step-by-step function, etc., that it was very relaxing to just watch it without thinking of all that. (Not that I didn't see anything new, but I didn't stop and study it right then.) Thanks, Maeg :) .

Originally posted by tgshaw
Rikka, can you give any insight into how a method actor would think of that? That is, if an actor were to play two different characters who were in basically the same situation and emotional state, but who were very different from each other as people, how would a method actor work that out? (Just basically! :o )
Dear tgshaw,
Beg your pardon that I couldn't answer immediately, but I have no opportunity to visit this discussion every day… :(
Now I'll try to do it.

As far as I know, basically in both American Method and Russian Stanislavsky System, when an actor gets a role he starts a process of its preparation from a very careful and detailed study of the character – biography, social and relative environment, temper and personality, habits, preferences, motives , past and present situation in the story (and in pre-story period), how his personality changes…well, absolutely everything! Even if something isn't known from the text, he had to "reconstruct" these details, imagine how it could be outgoing from what he already knows.

So the first step is RESEARCH AND UNDERSTANDING of the character. EW spoke in his interview exactly about the same, wasn't he? Normally there are a lot of talks at this initial stage – at rehearsals an actor discuss his character with his director, with other actors, thinks about him a lot…

At the end of this stage an actor already has to know his personage as well as he knows himself. And in further work, when at practical "acting" rehearsals begin (in theater), his main task is not to play "himself in such circumstances", but to "become" ANOTHER person, to transform into a personage. Figuratively, to "dissolve" himself in the character. As Stanislavsky used to say to his actors: "You have to act so that it wouldn't be possible to put even a needle between you and a character you play".

But anyway on the way to this goal any actor has to use his own body, psychic and soul – these are the only instruments he has, right? And this "me in such circumstances" thing is only one of the technical modes, used by actors to evoke inside themselves feelings, true and correct for a PERSON they play. This is not an essence and goal, but only technique.

Well, for Method (Sistem) actor generally everything is based on searching a truth of a concrete character in his concrete situation. If some feeling or gesture, common for an actor (as a person) is suitable for this character – it's OK, he may use it in the role. If not – an actor has to find another one that will be adequate for the personality of personage and situation of the play..

When an actor has to play two roles with simular emotions and situations, well, for sure there will be some simularity (you've find it yourself in Heck Finn and Frodo), but anyway those characters couldn't be absolutely similar, and a good actor, makind a researches on character, will find this difference - and express it by a great number of small detailes of behaviour and habits and so on, caused by different backgrounds and so on... Finn and Fodo are very different, any way, aren't they? So I don't think this is really a terrible problem for a talented actor.

Have I answered your question, tg? :)

Well, some actors prefer to get the right mood for his role in the the "Method" way – from an "inner", emotional truth to an "outer" truth of physical, body actions… Remember Boyd explanations how he prepares himself emotionally before "weeping" scenes? In Stanislavsky System case, as I mentioned before this sequence is different– true body language evoke true feelings... Doesn't this remind you Wood's "I need to make my body sad"? I suppose that our dear "ignoramus" (with his absence of professional education but huge practical experience), instinctively found out this methodic…or may be some of grown-up actors or directors gave his some practical advises about it in his childhood.

And all these technique methods they use mostly during the practical opening-up of the role. It's difficult to find the right things, but when they finally catch the correct psycho, physics, intonations of their role, they store them and then are able to "play them back", evoke them again when they need.

This is true also for movie actors… I couldn't find that Wood's interview, where we spoke about their work with Serkis in TTT.. But he explained in it that at first they made rehearsed and made all Gollum scenes together with Andy, so later, when he and Sean had to do the same scenes without Serkis, they were able to repeat them easily because they had known already what to act.

Of course, theater actor has a chance to look step by step for true emotional and physical expressions for the character in each scene, developing him from episode to episode… Movie actors couldn't work so sequentially…They have to "jump" into the characters on different stage of their development… And this could be difficult sometime. Wood told about this problem in interviews…

There is a quotation from EW's interview about LOTR filming (Dec. 2002)

[i]
You were doing all these different scenes that were at different points in the character's progression, so at the time it must have been a challenge to you as an actor?

It was difficult. It was certainly a challenge, particularly when we first started jumping around from film to film. We'd primarily been filming film one from the beginning, and then because of weather we had to shoot indoors and shoot something from film three. And at that point, Frodo is a shadow of his former self. He's completely gone and taken by the Ring. So I hadn't really given that part of Frodo that much thought, because I assumed it was farther ahead in the schedule. (…) And so we were thrust into film three and material I hadn't given a whole lot of thought [to], and that first time it was a serious challenge because I had to [figure out] how I was going to play this and how I was going to play the internal, evil, the kind of hatred and jealousy that's coming over Frodo at that time.


P,S. I vote for Ariel-EW in Tempest!!! :) Oh, seriously speaking this role could be good for the boy... .

Don't worry about it, tg, :k :) I'm glad I'm fitting in. :D And yes, I think Ariel would be a great choice for him...another opportunity for using his wonderful British accent! :rolleyes:

Rikka--Thanks for the explanation. I hadn't seen any info on learning a specific character through the Method before. Reading through your description of the process and trying to align it with how EW seems to operate... well, are we ready for another theory :eek: ?? This one is "in addition to" the other things we've talked about--it doesn't contradict anything.

Back in one of the lit threads at Imladris, we tried to classify some of the LotR characters (including Frodo) according to the Meyers-Briggs Personality Inventory. We didn't do any actors, of course--it was a lit thread, and at that time I don't think we knew enough about any of the actors to have a clue as to their personalities or their acting styles.

The whole MBPI thing is a "theory" of course, but I've found it to be helpful. Other people might disagree with how I've interpreted some of the following, but this is how I see it...

The only letter pair I'm looking at here is S/N (sensing vs. intuitive). Back in that Imladris thread, it was definitely decided, among other things, that Sam's an "S" and Frodo's an "N".

A person with a stronger "S" side is more apt to pay attention to the things around him that he experiences through his senses, especially the little things, and to be concerned with them (Sam deciding just which herbs should go with the stewed rabbit, and fussing about not having 'taters). The line (somewhere?) about Sam liking to have things in his pack that he could pull out when someone said they wished they'd brought it, is a pretty good example of an "S". Because an "S" tends to start any thinking process from something sensate, that process is usually step-by-step (Sam working through the decision of whether to take the Ring from "dead" Frodo). An "S" is more likely to think in concrete terms.

OTOH, Frodo as an "N" is more likely to think abstractly, without necessarily relating his thoughts to anything he can experience through his senses. And--the point I'm getting to here, finally :rolleyes: -- an "N" seems to "jump over" a step-by-step thinking process and arrive at an answer "intuitively". Compare the way Frodo uses an "N" approach to arrive at the decision to take the Ring at the Council of Elrond with the "S" approach of "The Choices of Master Samwise."

But, the thing is, an "N" only seems to jump over the steps of the thinking process. He integrates the steps so quickly and completely that--even to himself--it seems as if he hasn't gone through the steps: but he has.

Reading through Rikka's explanation of the way an actor using the Method would get to know a character, I found myself thinking, "Elijah does all that. He just doesn't break it down that way when he talks about it." As his Huck Finn director said, he does it "naturally"--which is why the director didn't want Elijah to ask him the same questions about Huck that Courtney would ask about Jim (motivation, etc.). If you think about it, to be as good an actor at as young an age as Elijah (he was, what? 8 years old when he did Avalon?), you'd have to be able to do it "naturally" (or intuitively?). Can you imagine an 8 or 10 year old consciously going through the process that Rikka describes :eek: ? And IMVHO, Elijah's Huck was as well realized as Courtney's Jim.

As he gets more mature and experienced, Elijah could certainly look at some of the aspects more consciously than he did when he was younger--and from some things he's said, I think he's done a lot of that already. Adding that onto his "intuitive" ability would seem to me to be a good thing.

So, if we take it as a theory that Elijah operates as an "N"--when he says (for example) that he tries to think of how Frodo would respond to something, he'd be looking at all those aspects of Frodo that an actor using the Method would, but he would almost immediately integrate those aspects into one character.

--That's just what struck me--something more to throw into the discussion--or not :p :p .

Rikka, thank you for that very interesting and thorough presentation; - how very daunting and challenging it must be; being an actor and striving to live up to those requirements for a role! (And how truly rewarding it must be when the actor manages to "nail" his/her character completely.)

Tg, I really think that theory about intuitive vs. sensitive approaches to acting makes great sense, certainly to an acting ignoramus like me. :o

Returning for a moment to a previous post I had about EJW's acting through facial expressions and body language, and the Frodo-in-Mordor scenes, I managed to find those AICN quotes I asked ainon for. (Found them on the very first AICN page I looked up, too; - a total surprise! :rolleyes: :D ). This has been posted some while back, hope it's OK to repost it anyway!

Anyway, here's AICN's "Geek in middle earth chap. 7" description of the location for the scene in question: "....a rocky craggy face… wet and dank looking, as if formed in the nightmare of one’s mind." And of EJW's costume and makeup: "....there was Frodo, ring ‘round that neck of his… a greenish cloak and his ever-loving Hobbit feet. They were in the process of putting these contact lenses in for him…. The lenses achieve a strange tired look in his eye and are rather thick and milky…. (snip) I feel the cloth of his cloak… a really nice loose weave… very soft… My eyes are drawn to the ring. Perhaps because it is the brightest element… the only shiny thing about Frodo."
And then the silent acting part: "A scene of Frodo… facing some rock and turning to look at us. Hidden in shadow. Kinda creepy. (snip) Peter is shooting the scene at 12 frames per second… then later at 6 frames per second. This isn’t to speed it up, but to add a memory quality to it.

Only a tiny scene that probably won't even be in the film, but I bet there was some serious acting on EJW's part in it!


Rikka, thank you also for posting that interview quote about EJW's feelings upon filming the famous squash court scene. :) If there's anything I cannot help but harbour a small worry over about RotK, is whether they manage to strike the right balance between the deep love and affection between Frodo and Sam, and the Ring's work to ruin that relationship and Frodo in particular, when he "rejects" Sam and "evil, hatred and jealousy" comes over him. From other interview quotes from PJ and others though, I believe thay will manage to strike that balance. :)

Otherwise, I have come completely to terms with Frodo's portrayal in TTT; I find it to be realistic although far from pretty, courageous, consistent, believable, beautiful, heartwrenching, and actually quite disturbing; it's impossible to be indifferent about it; - and of course I expect no less from RotK Frodo!

tg,
It's hard for me to say anything about this MBPI thing – I tried to read about it before, but understood nothing (even reading in Russian). :)

I've read a lot of EW's interviews, where he spoke about his Frodo and how he worked on this role. But, sincerely saying, I never meet in his explanations something that seemed absolutely strange or unfamiliar for me… A normal process of actor's work it seems to me… EW spoke how he thought a lot about the character, how discusses Frodo with PJ,and with his main partner –Austin… And from his ints I see that he has done his preparatory work well – he understands his character, able to explain him, analyze his motives…

While, of course, when he was 8-9 years old he worked not consciously, but intuitively… But I don't see any contradiction in it. A very strong intuition always was one of the most relevant tags of natural and strong actor's talent. And Wood for sure has a big native gift of acting. So in his childhood he worked on those inherent abilities for acting.

But now Wood is a grown-up professional and reinforces his inherent talent by knowledge, analysis and technique. But his enormous intuition is with him, too – helps him to make these "jumps' in understanding and expressing the characters may be better than many other actors. But eventually, all this conscious analysis, acting methods – they are only basis and tools that are invoked to help the actor in the process of creativity. And creativity at the end of the day is always unconscious and subconscious thing, right? If you have no real talent, if you have no ability for creation, than… alas – no preparations will help you…

Maeglian,
I'm not sure that PJ has an intention to keep "balance" in Frodo-Sam relations – he has his concept and he sequentially embodies it in life... But in fact after TTT I have no serious worries about Frodo in RotK. I already liked the EW's work in FOTR, but after his TTT Frodo I completely believe in Elijah.

I think Frodo's part in the 3d movie will be very hard, dark, tragic story of a Fall, innocence lost and unfulfilled return home...

Some time ago I've read one of EW's interviews, where he told that Frodo became so close to him that for a long time after he felt himself devastated,. is if there was him who went to the West, leaving his friends and his heart in Shire …

This doesn't sound very optimistic fin, does it? And I feel the JP's consept is quite far from optimism. I'm not sure he will give EW's Frodo consolation, rest, healing at the end… even doesn't sure that he will give a real hope for it. May be I'm wrong, of course…

Originally posted by Rikka
But I don't see any contradiction in it. A very strong intuition always was one of the most relevant tags of natural and strong actor's talent.
Rikka--I don't necessarily see any contradiction in it, just that perhaps EW doesn't have to be as methodical (meaning that in a general sense, and not referring to "the Method" as such) as some other actors do. Even with Meyers-Briggs personality types, it's all a matter of degree--no one's completely one type or the other; everyone's along a spectrum.

And, one of the reasons it sometimes helps to find out your basic "type" is that you can learn to consciously develop the side that's not the most natural for you. So, as you said, if Elijah's developing his more "methodical" side as he matures, it should only make his acting more complete.

This doesn't sound very optimistic fin, does it? And I feel the JP's consept is quite far from optimism. I'm not sure he will give EW's Frodo consolation, rest, healing at the end… even doesn't sure that he will give a real hope for it. May be I'm wrong, of course…
What I really, really want to see at the end of RotK is what Tolkien left there for us for all time -- hope without guarantee. IMVHO, if PJ can give us that, it will cover over many sins.


Maeg, I do remember that AICN report. If it's the same one I'm thinking of, the thing that seemed especially spooky/creepy/angsty to me was that Elijah was almost blind with those contacts in. IIRC, he knew Harry was there because he recognized his voice. (And, unless I'm mixing up various AICN people--which I've done before--isn't Harry pretty hard to not see? ;) )

Originally posted by tgshaw
If it's the same one I'm thinking of, the thing that seemed especially spooky/creepy/angsty to me was that Elijah was almost blind with those contacts in. IIRC, he knew Harry was there because he recognized his voice. (And, unless I'm mixing up various AICN people--which I've done before--isn't Harry pretty hard to not see? ;) )

Oh! I'd not seen this report before! :eek: Maeg or tg, do either of you have a link to the whole thing? I tried searching on AICN and couldn't find it. :confused: It does sound really spooky/creepy/angsty... The mention of almost-blind Frolijah reminds me of that part in the book, when Frodo and Sam are trying to climb down the Emyn Muil with the rope, and Frodo seems to be struck blind. (Something that's always puzzled me... any discussion on what really caused him to lose his sight?) I was disappointed that it wasn't in the movie, but maybe they'll put it back in the SE DVD. So it sounds like they were planning, at least, to visually show how the Ring torments Frodo so much that he can't see, at the foot of Mt. Doom? Interesting...

And of course, forgive me if I'm again questioning something that's already been discussed before... :rolleyes: :D

Hi, Faculty!
I enjoy reading your discussions and I just happened to have the link you asked for, Tathar:

http://www.aint-it-cool-news.com/display.cgi?id=7779

Scroll to the bottom for an index to each report. VII is the one Maeg quoted. They are all have very interesting information.

Thanks so much, Patricia! Glad you've delurked! :k

Edit: Okay, I went to AICN and read it (thanks again, Patricia!), and that Frolijah scene they were filming gave me the shivers. I hope it makes it into the movie. But this bit, too, gave me a thrill:

I sort of hang back, and watch this animatic footage of a different scene of Gandalf riding upon an Eagle on their way for Frodo and Sam…

Oh, I wonder what those eagles will look like, up-close and heroically saving our beloved hero from Mt. Doom? :rolleyes: :D December can't come soon enough!

Originally posted by Tathar
...The mention of almost-blind Frolijah reminds me of that part in the book, when Frodo and Sam are trying to climb down the Emyn Muil with the rope, and Frodo seems to be struck blind. (Something that's always puzzled me... any discussion on what really caused him to lose his sight?) I was disappointed that it wasn't in the movie, but maybe they'll put it back in the SE DVD. So it sounds like they were planning, at least, to visually show how the Ring torments Frodo so much that he can't see, at the foot of Mt. Doom? Interesting...

IIRC, Elijah's near-blindness was a side-effect; the real purpose of the contacts was to "dull down" his eyes as Frodo deteriorates. (Kind of the opposite of the "eye enhancement" some people think he gets :rolleyes: .) I'd imagine he could probably act blindness, if that was the aim.

I haven't seen any discussion of Frodo's blindness on this board, but at either Imladris or CoE there was an entire thread on it in the lit forum. IIRC, most people agreed on the cause being some kind of a combination of the lightning flash, Nazgul call, and possibly the physical shock of landing so quickly (and a speculation that it might have been something Tolkien had witnessed--possibly during WWI--but there's no outside evidence for that, as far as I know).

BTW, the "Concerning Hobbits" thread has fallen off the 30-day listing in the Green Dragon, but if anyone wants to pull it up (or have me pull it up) any discussion on book-Frodo would certainly be on topic. It usually just needs someone to bring up a new question to get the discussion going again.

---------------

Edit: Well, I was trying to be subtle when I mentioned that I'd seen something new in FotR the other night, but I guess I was a bit too subtle :o , as it didn't stir any Faculty curiosity. But I don't usually have to be asked :rolleyes: . I'm guessing I'm not the first person to see this, but I don't think we've talked about it... I think it may be the first step of the "progression" of the effect the Ring has on Frodo that Elijah talked about in that recently-posted interview. But it's one of those things that's taking place off to the side of the action, and I hadn't really noticed it before. It takes place while Merry and Pippin are crawling out of the hiding place under the tree roots. Frodo is at the very left of the picture (all of the pics I've got posted at the link below start at the extreme left end of the frame--the only cropping done was on the right).

Anyway, does this look to anyone else like it could be the precursor to the later "heart attack" scenes? He is looking down at the Ring, but IMHO there's more going on than that--especially if you look at the frames in slideshow mode. In the group of frames that have everything but Frodo cropped, no one's paying any attention to him--not even Sam, because he's busy trying to keep Merry and Pippin off his face as they're climbing out ;) . As soon as M&P are out of the way, Sam gets into action--and those caps are less cropped in order to show him. IMVHO, Sam's not just hurrying Frodo along--it looks to me as if Frodo wouldn't have been much able to even get started moving on his own.

If I've missed something in either movie, someone please tell me--but as I recall, Frodo doesn't have an "attack" like this if he does put on the Ring, although it might be hard to tell because there's always something else he has to react to at the same time: Strider grabbing him at the Prancing Pony, being stabbed at Weathertop, and falling off the Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen. But he does have progressively more serious attacks each time he successfully resists putting on the Ring. My take on this is that it's not the Ring in and of itself that causes the attacks, but Frodo's efforts to resist it--which become more and more draining as he weakens and the Ring gets stronger.

This page is listed as "under construction" right now because it's just the pics; I probably won't add any text for a couple of weeks yet: First "Attack"? (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id161.htm)

Hi, Patricia! Nice to see you de-lurking! :)


Tg, you're right about the AICN blindness in the Mordor scene - it's a side effect caused by the contacts. I cut out that part from the quote as the banter between Harry and Elijah kind of ruins the somber creepy mode of the scene description (However, it *does* illustrate how quickly and completely EJW flips out of and into acting mode. One moment merrily joking with others, the next acting Frodo-in-the-last-stages-in-Mordor!)

Well, you've given me another reason to re-watch FotR. I'd noted Frodo's delay and reaction under the tree root, but had just interpreted it as an shocked and introspective "What WAS that??" moment on his part; - trying to figure out what happened, why he nearly put the Ring on when he had no own intention of doing so.

I haven't seen any discussion of Frodo's blindness on this board, but at either Imladris or CoE there was an entire thread on it in the lit forum. Well, from spoilers we are likely to get a scene where Frodo and Sam descend a cliff face in Emyn Muil in the EE DVD, but do you think we'll also get the Nazgul call and the blindness? I rather doubt that. For one thing, in movieTTT it seems that the Marshes scene is the first time F&S become aware that the wraiths are still around, and moreover it would also take some effect away from the later Osgiliath scene. But perhaps it's in after all, to show the progression of the Ring's effect; - it *could* work if he's struck blind just for a moment, and they are not aware that the scary sound they heard in the middle of rain and thunder is a wraith....?? (OK, it *is* fun to speculate, and the EE DVD is only 8 months off..... :rolleyes: )

The Ring and wraith combination does impact Frodo severely in the movie, too, though: Osgiliath. In the film it's the sense of hearing that is lost, but at first he's still able to see; - since that shot of Sam talking without sound is seen from Frodo's POV. Although they're in the middle of a battle, the scene continues to remain eerily silent, except for the spooky sound of the wings of the Fell Beast, almost like a heartbeat, reverberating through Frodo's mind as other sensations get dulled down. Then, in a way, Frodo goes blind too; - certainly with those trance-like rolling eyes and later that unfocused, inward-directed look he does not register the action and surroundings the way he normally would. I doubt he's actually seeing the wraith and its steed right in front of him at all - all his mind and soul and senses are tied up by the effect of the wraith's call for the Ring, and the Ring itself taking over, demanding that he put it on.

Of course, in the middle of this there is Faramir's "Nazgul!" scream, and Sam's "Where are you going!?" I've taken this to mean that the scene switches POV from Frodo to "general audience". I dont think Frodo really hears either of them.

Either way, the Ring trance and the Osgiliath scenes all are filled to the brim with simply *awesome* acting from Elijah! :)

Originally posted by tgshaw
IIRC, most people agreed on the cause being some kind of a combination of the lightning flash, Nazgul call, and possibly the physical shock of landing so quickly (and a speculation that it might have been something Tolkien had witnessed--possibly during WWI--but there's no outside evidence for that, as far as I know).

Well that's an interesting thought, that it was something Tolkien had witnessed. Hmmm, I might have to do a bit of research about that.

Anyway, does this look to anyone else like it could be the precursor to the later "heart attack" scenes? He is looking down at the Ring, but IMHO there's more going on than that--especially if you look at the frames in slideshow mode. In the group of frames that have everything but Frodo cropped, no one's paying any attention to him--not even Sam, because he's busy trying to keep Merry and Pippin off his face as they're climbing out ;) . As soon as M&P are out of the way, Sam gets into action--and those caps are less cropped in order to show him. IMVHO, Sam's not just hurrying Frodo along--it looks to me as if Frodo wouldn't have been much able to even get started moving on his own.

If I've missed something in either movie, someone please tell me--but as I recall, Frodo doesn't have an "attack" like this if he does put on the Ring, although it might be hard to tell because there's always something else he has to react to at the same time: Strider grabbing him at the Prancing Pony, being stabbed at Weathertop, and falling off the Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen. But he does have progressively more serious attacks each time he successfully resists putting on the Ring. My take on this is that it's not the Ring in and of itself that causes the attacks, but Frodo's efforts to resist it--which become more and more draining as he weakens and the Ring gets stronger.

I think maybe the "attack" was a mixture of your theory and Maeg's -- certainly a shock for him either way, I'm sure. Probably a "What WAS that?!" like Maeg said, but probably directed more toward the Ring's effect on him because of his resistance. I don't know, though, it's been too long since I saw the scene... looks like I'll have to watch FOTR again. :rolleyes:

And I was curious as to what you'd noticed in watching it again, but by that time it was getting late and I was too tired to reply. :D Love those new screencaps on your site, btw, tg -- after I go watch FOTR again I'll check back and see if I've come up with any other theories. :rolleyes:

tg and Maeg: thanks for giving me a research assignment that *forces* me to go back and watch FoTR again.

Like I needed a prod! :rolleyes:

I think you are right about that moment on the road to Bree, tg. PJ seems to have tried to set up parallel moments in each of the films, and the "heart attack" in Morder may well be prefigured (no, I won't say foreshadowed ;) ) in that scene.

Maeg: your point about the sensory deprivation Frodo feels in ring trance is really good. It took me several viewings to begin to appreciate it, but now I have an excuse to try and see TTT again.

Waves at Tathar! Rikka, your expertise on acting is *awesome*!

Maeg--Yes, the Osgiliath scene in the movie is completely different from what happens when Frodo is struck blind in the book, because the latter is just physical. He gets a little concerned about not being able to see (!), but there's no hint of any pressure to put on the Ring, and he recovers quickly. So unless they changed that in the SE, it wouldn't be part of the "progressing" impact the Ring has on Frodo. Which could make it completely unnecessary to include at all (unless just as a special little "gift" to the fans, like Sam's poetry recitation in the FotR SE). In fact, IMHO that's why the "meaning" of the scene in the book gets discussed so much--because it doesn't seem to have a real purpose in the story, so there's a lot of speculation on why Tolkien included it.

And on the scene under the tree roots--at first, I thought he was just looking at the Ring, as he does after they leave the hiding place. I still think he is looking at the Ring, but after the first moment or two, he seems to have a different reaction. Maybe I noticed it because we've been looking at the more severe "heart attack" he has in TTT--but does that mean I'm reading more into it than is there, or does it mean that seeing the more noticeable attack made it easier to recognize the first one :confused: ? I did notice it at full speed while just watching the movie--but then went back and looked at it more slowly.

Edit: Tather and peaceweaver posted while I was writing (others on lunch break, perhaps :p ? ). But the only thing I have to add is that back when TTT was first released and people were trying to make some sense of the Osgiliath scene, I compared that to the tree root scene: Sam physically stops Frodo from putting on the Ring and Frodo reacts (by closing his hand around the Ring and pulling it towards him?--I'd have to go back and check that). In essence, that's what happens in Osgiliath--Sam physically stops Frodo from putting on the Ring (in the presence of a Nazgul) and Frodo reacts--but the intensity of the situation shows how Frodo's reaction to the Ring has changed since leaving the Shire.

Tg; - LOL, I think I was channeling PJ there.......
*IF* the momentary blindness in the Emyn Muil is included in the EE, no way it would happen without angst and a "heart attack" and /or the Ring acting up too. That just wouldn't *be* the PJ we know and love. :D


Edit: Woo-hoo! My 300th post! http://thorstenkaye.com/yippee.gif
(But perhaps that is cause for worry, rather than celebration? :o )

Oh, great cause for celebration :cool: ! I don't have much celebratory material here at work, but I can send a little kiss :k .
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/outtakes/8578be00.jpg

:k

Happy 300th post, Maeg! :D :k :p

Hail Fair Faculty Members!

The discussion of method acting has made me delurk and add my two cents (or two kopeikas?). Most of this has been actually said above in a slightly different order.

To begin with, acting is a bit like speaking some sort of visual language. Our primitive ancestors may have communicated that way a lot, but most modern humans cannot _deliberately_ use more than a few "smillies". However, we can still understand this language fairly well which makes acting altogether possible.

"Acting talent" is the ability to register separate "visual words" for particular notions and reproduce them fluently on demand (not unlike a capacity for foreign languages or musicality). An actor is ready for a role once his "vocabularly" and "syntax" are sufficiently rich. For instance, Ian McKellen probably had absolutely no difficulty playing Gandalf.

"The Method", known as "Stanislavski's System" to its Russian adepts, is a popular technique of enhancing your acting language. (Note that having the acting talent is presupposed, lol .) The general idea is to (a) get a thorough understanding of the character from the play/script and (b) impose the character's mindset, circumstances, and physique on yourself in order to record the largely instinctive expressions generated by your subconsciousness. (Part (b) can be implemented by using your imagination or by really eating live roaches a la Nicolas Cage.) Stanislavski maintained that applying his system should lead to more convincing acting than studying a predefined array of expressions (e.g., by mimicking) or showing your own response to onstage events. The point is that you assess expressions inherent to the character AND congenial to the workings of your nervous system.

Now, Mr Wood seems deserving of a personal thread indeed. He obviously has the acting gift. Years of child-acting opposite grown-ups have given him a solid basic knowledge of the visual language (bear in mind that kids learn languages way faster than adults and without any method whatsoever). Finally, he's got the fine sensibilities required to find his own (preciousss) expressions for more profound and disturbing emotions via the method thingy.

Having said which, I can go back into hiding because (blasphemy!) I'm not much of a Tolkien fan. I would certainly prefer to watch Elijah Wood portray "devastating angst" in - alas, unavailable - Salinger's "For Esme - with Love and Squalor"...

I watched TTT again ...
Did anyone notice before, that in "heart attack"scene at Emin Muil Frodo sees the Eye WITHOUT putting the Ring on - for the first time in the whole movie! I just realized this fact... :eek: Before he always saw the Eye only with the Ring on his finger...
One more sight of growing deprivation and deterioration of a Ringbearer, his growing addiction, isn't it?

Brunhild,
thanks a lot for so good help in explanation of the Method/Sysytem! :)

Originally posted by Maeglian

Edit: Woo-hoo! My 300th post!
(But perhaps that is cause for worry, rather than celebration? :o )

Congrats, Maeglian! If it's cause for worry, at least you're in good company. ;)

Welcome, Brunhild!

How the heck do you manage to post while still having zero posts? :D And I like that technical term, "The method thingy" - sounds like something I would come up with. :)

I do not thank you for bringing up the Nicholas Cage thingy - ew ew ew. I'd managed to clear that right out of my brain until you brought it back again, now I'm going to be thinking of it the whole time I make dinner. :p

I also suspect some Method actors don't really understand the Method. ;) That is, some Method actors seem not to really grasp the "impose the character on yourself" aspect and instead impose themselves on the character, IMHO.

I'm a Tolkien fan, but there's many another story I'd like to see EW in. And not all of them are angsty. :D

Originally posted by Maeglian

Did anyone notice before, that in "heart attack"scene at Emin Muil Frodo sees the Eye WITHOUT putting the Ring on - for the first time in the whole movie!

I noticed that while watching it, but haven't watched the movie often enough to think of it after. Makes sense - in the book, he begins seeing the eye almost constantly as he's crossing Mordor. But I don't believe book Frodo sees it as early as Bree -? Anyhow, yes, I always thought that aspect particularly ominous. And it sort of reflects Frodo's words there - he just responds to Sam's question (if Sam hadn't asked specifically about the Ring, we'd probably get another, "I'm fine" routine), but when he says, "It's getting heavier" I thought seeing the eye indicates the oppression is more than physical.

I was wondering what tgshaw noticed myself, but I seem to be in the midst of Internet lethargy. Or maybe it's spring fever - the kids have been out in the yard the last two days, it's right nice around here, if outragously muddy. It's been quiet here and in the Harem - maybe people are out enjoying the spring (or fall) weather.

I'd connected the under-the-treeroots scene to Osgiliath myself, but that's the advantage of art - it can resonate under both TTT scenes, and I suspect it does. The sequence where Frodo sits there stunned until Sam hauls him to his feet is another one I've done inch-by-inch a number of times, and I think tg's connection makes sense. I agree with Maeglian that he's stunned with shock, but I further think he's dazed, an exhausted daze. He was so focussed on fighting the thing that he's a bit wasted and unable to fully reconnect with the outside world for a minute.

I don't believe we've really dug into that scene, but I've said on the Faculty thread that I don't believe Frodo would have moved without Sam hauling him to his feet, because he's so dazed from dealing with the Ring. This was before TTT, so I think I'll leap on tg's theory as correct and just preen at my
prescience. :p

Sheryl

Originally posted by Rikka
I watched TTT again ...
Did anyone notice before, that in "heart attack"scene at Emin Muil Frodo sees the Eye WITHOUT putting the Ring on - for the first time in the whole movie! I just realized this fact... :eek: Before he always saw the Eye only with the Ring on his finger...
One more sight of growing deprivation and deterioration of a Ringbearer, his growing addiction, isn't it?
When I first saw that in the movie, I took it as it as one of the places where PJ takes a quote from the book and transfers it literally to the screen. When Frodo and Sam are trying to find a way out of the Emyn Muil, Frodo says:
...I wish we could get away from these hills! I hate them. I feel all naked on the east side, stuck up here with nothing but the dead flats between me and that Shadow yonder. There's an Eye in it...
Seeing his vision of the Eye is certainly more visual and exciting than hearing the piece of dialogue spoken :) .

from Sheryl:
Welcome, Brunhild!

How the heck do you manage to post while still having zero posts?
Yes, something very strange there, Brunhild--when your post was the last one in the thread, the board still showed Tathar's post (before yours) as the latest one. But, welcome, even if the board's computer doesn't know you're here, we do :) (and I did just see that you're now listed as the newest member, so maybe they'll get caught up with your posts soon ;) ).

And it sort of reflects Frodo's words there - he just responds to Sam's question (if Sam hadn't asked specifically about the Ring, we'd probably get another, "I'm fine" routine), but when he says, "It's getting heavier" I thought seeing the eye indicates the oppression is more than physical.
Of course, Sam doesn't see the Eye--only we do. I think Frodo's still giving Sam basically an "I'm fine" routine--"Eh, yeah, the thing feels a little heavier, but other than that everything's peachy." Sam still knows there's something wrong because he knows Frodo so well, and [i]we know because we've just seen what he's dealing with--and seeing it sure revs up the imagination when reading that nonchalant, "There's an Eye in it," in the book! It makes me look at Frodo's other "ho-hum" lines a bit differently!! How much was he hiding at that point?

Hi to all the Faculty!

I am still alive, but have been really busy since getting back to London, and intermittently travelling the globe.. and struggling with jet lag.

I haven't been able to catch up with all the pages, and am still trying to wrap my brain around this "method acting" thing...I thought I understood it, but...

Nicholas Cage eating live roaches...yeuch :eek: (I vote for straightforward acting with not a roach in sight :D )

will probably write something profound when my brain is functioning again (and Prim, don't laugh!)

welcome to all the new members and de-lurkers: {{faculty}}

viola

edit: tg re-read the quote at the bottom of your posts (the second one) and just LOVE it

Originally posted by shilohmm
I noticed that while watching it, but haven't watched the movie often enough to think of it after. Makes sense - in the book, he begins seeing the eye almost constantly as he's crossing Mordor. But I don't believe book Frodo sees it as early as Bree -?

I'm pretty sure book-Frodo doesn't see the Eye until the Seat of Seeing at Amon Hen. Before that, putting the Ring on draws the Nazgul to him, but that's it.

The Hallmark Channel is showing Huck Finn next weekend. I can't wait to watch it and see all the Froshadowings for myself.:cool:

A fellow LotR geek-friend of mine just showed me this link, and look what it is!! :eek:

http://www.marvel.com/toybiz/lotr/towers/view.php?item_no=81172

*squeal* So the Emyn Muil Elven-rope scene WILL be in the SE DVD, if this is anything to go by. But hey, where's Frodo?? Well, I can hope, anyway. *hopehopehope*

Some days ago I read PJ interview in the net, where he mentioned that the rope scene at Emin Muil definetily will be in the SEE TTT...
So we'll see it...I would love to see... mirror...:p I love this scene in the book very much, while I cannot reasonably explain - why...

Bridget Chubb,
it seems to me book Frodo sees the Eye before Amon Hen - in the Galadriel's mirror

Originally posted by Rikka
Bridget Chubb,
it seems to me book Frodo sees the Eye before Amon Hen - in the Galadriel's mirror

You're right, he does - I'd forgotten that.:o

Of course, he also sees it in Galadriel's Mirror in the movie - so his Emyn Muil "heart attack" wasn't the first time in movie-verse that he saw it without putting the Ring on.

Not that I have any insight as to the significance of this, or anything...:rolleyes:

P.S. Tathar, Sam in Mordor with Rope-Climbing Action is way cool.:D I'm so glad we'll get to see that scene in the DVD. I can totally see Frolijah saying that the rope must have frayed and Seanwise getting all upset and defending the Elves' honor.;) :D

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb
Of course, he also sees it in Galadriel's Mirror in the movie - so his Emyn Muil "heart attack" wasn't the first time in movie-verse that he saw it without putting the Ring on.

Galadriel's Mirror is also a strongest magic artefact - Frodo sees the Eye through it, via it's power. I meant that in TTT movie he start to see it without using a power of any magic things, but with his own eyes.

Originally posted by Tathar
...*squeal* So the Emyn Muil Elven-rope scene WILL be in the SE DVD, if this is anything to go by. But hey, where's Frodo?? Well, I can hope, anyway. *hopehopehope*
Hmmm... Maybe movie-Sam (or action-figure-Sam, at least :) ) is better at climbing than book-Sam. Book-Sam is totally inept at it, which makes perfect sense given that he's never been more than about 20 miles from Hobbiton. Frodo first lowers Sam (with the rope tied around him, IIRC), and then climbs down the rope himself (hadn't thought of this before, but the Ring kind of hurts its cause by keeping Frodo physically 33, doesn't it ;) ?)

Anyway, my *hopehopehope* is that if this scene with the rope is included, maybe Frodo's blindness will be, too, since the rope is also important there. Whether the rope brings back his sight is never spelled out, but the first thing he sees is the rope shining in the darkness. If PJ does make the blindness part of a bigger angst-moment, that could be very effective (but I haven't heard that the blindness scene has even been filmed, so I doubt if we'll see it :( -- but hope remains while the DVD is unreleased ;) .)

(((Viola))) -- Glad to hear from you. Take some rest; the borders are well guarded :) .


Edit: Just went back and looked at all my screencaps from the tree-root scene in slideshow mode again. I think what makes me most "suspicious" that there's some kind of attack there is that it doesn't happen immediately--Frodo just sits there looking at the Ring for 10-11 frames, then seems to be affected. Maybe I should post a few of those "before" caps? Not now, though... The sky's clear today and the sun is up just far enough to start reflecting off the monitor, so the computer won't be much use to me until late afternoon--one of the minor disadvantages of living with two walls of floor-to-ceiling windows :) . Maybe nature's way of reminding me I have lots of other things to do :eek: !

It's already Sunday, and so I'll start with a hug and a greeting:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SHERYL !!! :) :)

Many Happy Returns!!!


Thanks everyone for congrats on the 300 posts. :)
tg, what a cute AW picture! And yes, please do post a couple of those "before the first heartattack" caps!

Welcome, Brunhild! :)

Hi and welcome back Viola, and Bridget!! :)


I know the following isn't very inventive, since I'm just stealing a link that Elda posted over in the Harem, but if you read the text under this John Howe illustration that I've linked to, it *is* very relevant to this thread, so............
http://www.john-howe.com/portfolio/gallery/details.php?image_id=95
Do have a look at the other Howe illustrations on the same site, there are a couple of Mordor scenes and a Shelob one that all are quite something. And a lovely Grey havens landscape.


I wish New Line would release some spoilers or new pictures from RotK. Would be nice to have something new to speculate about, or to plain gush over!

Off topic thought that just occurred to me, tg: being the best essay-writer of the Faculty, you really should write an essay "In Defence of Frodo." I know you've already explained why you've always loved him in one of your essays (Coming of Age? Forgive my pitiful memory!), but maybe something on why he's so heroic? He's such an unappreciated character. (sigh) I was on TORn today and looking through their "Lore and Letters" section, and it was crammed full of "Sam this," "Aragorn that," and scarcely a mention of Frodo, even in the essay about Mercy and Justice! :eek: :mad: I swear, if I hear one more "Sam is the hero," I'm gonna scream. There isn't a smiley to convey my feelings at the moment. Sigh. :(

Sorry for the rant -- I've been having a bad day, I came home and the first thing I see is a bunch of pro-Sam-hero, anti-Frodo-hero essays. Even in reviews for my own fanfiction, people praise my Samwise more than my Frodo! ARGH!! :mad: I just had to get that out before I exploded. :rolleyes:

Sorry. :)

Yes! Why is Frodo so misunderstood? Why is Elijah's Frodo dissed by a few ignorant souls?

Frodo is one of the bravest hero's in all literature and Elijah played him brilliantly.

If some people don't see Swartzenegger with a flamethrower they don't see a hero!

Grumble!!!Mumble....Ninnyhammers!!!!!! Grumble!!!!!

Tathar, sometimes it *is* necessary to rant a little....... :)

I can think of a few places to visit or texts to read when craving positive and insightful views on bookFrodo or MovieFrodo and EJW's portrayal:

The "Fan writing" section at FrodoandSam.net (both essays and commentaries) has a lot of wonderful and insightful texts full of love and admiration for Film Frodo, Sam and Frodo, and Frolijah. Several of the Faculty regulars have texts over there too. Hope I'm not offending anyone when I'm saying that one of my absolute favourites remain the one I posted a link to earlier, the "One step more: The heroism of Frodo Baggins" commentary. It really pinpoints what makes Frodo different from regular action heros, and why his heroism is less illustrious, but all the more convincing, real and encouraging.


Then there's the "Frodo in TTT" thread in the Trilogy here at KD.

And the "Importance of being Frodo" thread (started by Pearl) over at CoE. (It's in the movie discussion section, down on page 2 now, I hope it's OK to post a link? http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=2146&perpage=30&pagenumber=1 There have been a various wonderful and insightful posts there, both strongly pro and con the film Frodo portrayal of course, but certainly many of the posters discuss and defend the nature of Frodo's heroism, and the film's portrayal of Frodo. Several posters who also post here have been active and very eloquent in that thread; Rikka, Flourish and ainon to mention some.


And then, of course, there *is* the professor himself. Letter 246 is a beautiful and profound defence of Frodo, isn't it? :)

But of course, I wouldn't mind reading more!!

Hello Faculty.
Blossom is back - at last. I HAVE MISSED YOU ALL! Thanks so much to Maeglian, Luthiea - hi to you and Jed from Blossom and Holly - Ainon, EE, Sheryl and deluby for asking after me. I have been away from KD for over a month due to trouble with our internet server - to cut a long story short - while phoning their helpline and going through various actions to overcome a problem, our computer ended up 'stuck in a loop' as they put it, and we had to resort to using the back-up disk. Consequently we lost everything on our hard drive - all lovely Fro/EW pics, all of deluby's lovely gifs (shock, horror!) Tg's brilliant Weathertop sequence. (Drat!)

It's taken for ever for our new server to get us set-up again, but now I'm back online I have been lurking this thread for the past week trying to reclaim at least some of the lost goodies. Sadly, most of deluby's gifs have disappeared - probably due to Image Magician's new 'no free space' policy. What I can't work out is why MY screencaps are still showing in my posts on this thread, yet when I log in at IM they're telling me my free trial is over! Curious.

I have also been struggling to catch up with you ladies - you're such chatterboxes!:) So many discussions since I was last here - more microexpressions; nostril acting; Ash Wednesday; religion; method acting - it's all here.

Welcome to Tathar, Naiad, Brunchild, and hello again to Rikka.
Prim, Viola and Azalea - :k to the three of you. I hope things are getting easier for you all. It takes time.

Well, I did go to see TTT a second time. But after being denied access to The Faculty I was getting serious withdrawal symptoms and dragged hubby to the cinema again earlier today, so I am fresh from viewing number three. (OK, I know I'm still playing catch up with most of you)

What can I say - EW is simply stunning! I LOVE the scene where Frodo gets irritated with Sam for calling Gollum names. There are so many conflicting emotions going on with Frodo here. He pities Gollum - well, actually he pities Smeagol - he is angry with Sam, then he is full of contrition and apologises to him, then when Sam mentions the Ring he gets angry again - but this time his anger is linked to his growing obsession with the Ring/the Ring's increasing hold on him. When he turns on Sam and says (something like) 'What do YOU know. The task was appointed to ME. It is MY task - MY OWN.' EW's delivery of this line was, well - disburbing, chilling, and brilliantly executed.

As for Osgiliath: whether or not you agree with the departure from the book - Maeglian, I agree with you about Elijah's performance here - EW takes us to another level in these scenes. From the moment Frodo senses the Nazgul, it's as if he ceases to be Frodo - 'They're here. They've come,' sends shivers down my spine - it's not even Frodo's voice anymore. And the expressions - I got the impression of relief here, as if he were thinking, 'If I put the Ring on the struggle will be over - I will no longer have to fight against it.' Of course, at this stage he is not capable of coherent thought, and his actions are the direct result of the Ring's influence.

It's difficult to find suitable words to express how impressed I was with EW during Frodo's attack on Sam. How can an actor playing a character become so 'NOT that character' simply by using his facial features/body language? Aggression, hate, confusion, realisation, disbelief and utter remorse were portrayed without a word of dialogue. Very convincing, and extremely moving! Elijah's eyes convey so much emotion, and like you, Tg, I get really upset when I read critics who say his Frodo has only one expression - their loss, I suppose.

While I was internet-less I spent some time doing screencaps from the SE DVD of 'Fellowship' - had to get some EW/Fodo pics back on the computer. I did hundreds, and I haven't even started on the second half of the film yet. Do you know, I'm getting so confident with my screencapping I think I could screencap for England in The World Screencapping Championships - if there ever were such a competition. Mind you, I could only enter the basic 'single screencaps enhanced with a little adjustment for easier viewing of the subject' category. I just know I would be trounced by Tg in the 'series of screencaps supplemented by intelligent and articulate commentary relating to expressions/emotions portrayed in each individual screencap in the sequence' section. And of course no-one would stand a chance against deluby in the 'screencaps lovingly placed in quick succession to form an animated gif, thus providing maximum angst fix for the viewer' category. Oh, and Ainon, you would be a sure front-runner too, in the 'providing screencaps from TTT and other never-before-seen caps and pics to the constant delight of all Faculty members' section.

Blossom's confidence has plummeted again after considering the many merits of the above three possible opponents - could be fun though! I might just upgrade my IM account now I'm back on-line. Has anyone else stayed with IM for their image-hosting?

Maeglian - LOL at your brilliantly funny 'Fly on the wall at the TT script meeting.' Love PB's line 'He looks good enough to eat.'

It's been a long day, and I'm off to bed. Hope I haven't bored you all too much with my ranting.
:k to all members of The Faculty, old and new. It's good to be back.

Just popped back to say -HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SHERYL

Happy birthday, Sheryl! :D And welcome back, Blossom, I don't think we've been properly introduced. :p

Thanks, Maeg, for the link (I haven't been there before, so I'll have to check it out) -- I really didn't mean to rant, but, well...Sigh. It has not been a good day. But the Faculty, as usual, has brightened my spirits, and at any rate it seems that it will be a good night! :)

Yes, admittedly there are a lot of essays APPRECIATING Frodo, but at the moment it seemed that the whole world was against him. :o I read several essays IN A ROW either beginning with or containing the phrase "Sam long ago replaced Frodo as the real hero of LotR in my eyes..." ARGH! :mad:

All right, better go look at some Frodo pictures before I start ranting again. :D Here's one at The Argonath (http://www.theargonath.cc):

http://www.theargonath.cc/characters/frodo/pictures/ffotrparty1.jpg

Not the greatest pic, perhaps, but I needed a FotR Frodo. :) And I like his dance, too. :o Who else would like to learn how to dance like (and with!) the hobbits? :rolleyes:

Happy birthday Sheryl!

Hope you have a really neat and memorable day. :k And it's Spring in America!!! How wonderful to have a birthday in Spring!!! :)

Tathar: rave away sweetie. The Faculty is notorious for it . ;) . And I totally agree: I do think Sam gets a lot of credit, and Frodo not enough. I regret to say that EW and PJ's interpretation actually encourages this, since so much of Frodo's struggle is internal and thus not easy to access for the average indolent- hand- it- to- me- on- a -plate movie viewer; but really basically I don't care . I think Tolkein wrote Frodo as a very special character who would perhaps resonate most strongly with a certain personality type. After years of loving the books and less time (but still significant) of loving the movie interpretation I have to say that for Frodo to be overlooked and unloved is part of his destiny. I'm starting to think that this "overlooked heroism" is an essential part of his appeal and further (yes there is more) I think EW and PJ play it that way. It's part of the unsung hero thing: if Frodo had been celebrated and acknowledged as the hero he was would the books and the movie have the same impact?? I doubt it. The one key fact that keeps bringing a lot of us back is that Frodo in no way fits the stereotypical hero. Many of us struggle with our lives and our destinies and do the best we can in varying circumstances. No credit is ever given for this. This is just part of life. But I think this huge well of hidden quiet heroism that everyone takes totally for granted is one of the perhaps subconscious themes that Tolkein and PJ and EW tap into.

As in: the most mundane people can be amazingly determined and resolutely true to their goal if in their hearts they believe in what they are doing;and I see this as Frodo's forte. And thus I don't forgive him his moments of doubt and grief. As if; :rolleyes: Those moments make him accessible to the huge number of readers/viewers who share the same ambivilance to heroism. They do what they do because there really is no valid other choice.
I agree with Jackson: Frodo is indeed the Everyman. And EW plays him as the Everyman. We all quail and we all despair. I just love the book and movie character for this. I do. They (the book and movie Frodos) both despair and they both go on. This is real life. This is so frequently ignored by the press and by the world in general. Yet I believe that this is what Tolkein was telling us. To keep on going. To fight for what we believe in, in our own way, and whether we are ever recognised for it or not.

Lutheia: random hugs, just because. :)

Maeglian: still sending you love .

Rikka: love your method acting information. Still thinking about it.

Brunhild: you come onto a Tolk's thread and say you're not a fan?:eek: You are one brave dude. ;) Cool. Argue away. We are up for it. :)

edit yet again: Blossom so glad you're back. Thank you for the kind thoughts. :)

just dropped by to say

Happy Birthday Sheryl!. big hugs and well wishes on your big day :)

Blossom, how wonderful to see you again!! Welcome back! :)

Prim, a sincere and heartfelt thank you. :k

I love your comments on Frodo. You are so right.

In following various discussion on the net, there are some posts and statements that stay with you. Over at CoE, in the MovieFrodo thread I mentioned, a poster named Padfoot said the following in one of her posts about EJWs portrayal / movie Frodo, and I found it to be so insightful and wonderful that it has stayed with me since. I hope she wouldn't mind me quoting her here:
Every single step that Frodo takes in the direction of Mordor while carrying the ring is a separate act of courage -- in the book or in the movie. That makes how many thousands of acts of courage a day? Acts of defiance are nothing beside this one central fact. That he continues his journey long after the ring acquires a stronger hold on his mind makes him more courageous in the movie, not less so.

(snip) .....Frodo succeeds by the traditionally -feminine- (read your folk and fairy tales, which Tolkien took for his inspiration) attribute of dogged passive endurance. He's not like Beowulf slaying the dragon, or Robin Hood defying his country's oppressors. He's like the young wife who walks for seven years successively wearing out seven pairs of iron shoes. He's like the sister who remains mute for seven years while gathering the nettles that sting her hands in order to make the shirts that will break the enchantment on her brothers -- and who remains silent even on the way to the stake, though a word would save her. It is the uncomplaining stoic courage of those who merely go on and on and on with a task, despite pain, despite danger, on past exhaustion, on past hope -- not the momentary-courage-and-then-it's-all- over of the typical male hero. Anyone can be courageous for ten minutes, when the danger is immediate and the adrenaline is flowing. But to be courageous for days and weeks at a time, in a dreary plodding painful way, when strength fails and all that remains is sheer determination -- that is extraordinary.

My goodness, what a demanding bunch!! :k (((Faculty))) for making me feel needed :) :

Okay, okay--I added a few "before" caps to the hiding-under-the-treeroots page, which is here: First "Attack"? (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id161.htm)

Then I went ahead and posted an essay that was supposed to be for April (in medical journals, they sometimes call this "prepublishing" ;) ). There are some parts I've really been struggling over, so it may change some more before I consider it "finished" for April. I'm trying to make it a "crossover" essay for both the Tolkien section and the "Images and Incarnations" section of the website, which is concerned with spirituality, so that affects it ssomewhat. To give due credit, it was inspired by the "One Step More" essay that Maeg linked to, and I used one of ainon's---where did that come from?--TTT screencaps. The wonders of collaboration :cool: : On "Not Getting" Frodo" (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id162.htm).

But IMVHO, there's a lot of writing around that's just as good as a "formal" essay (Edit: and Maeg just added a new one while I was writing :) ). Prim's post is one example--absolutely on target, I think, and possibly summarized in:
Originally posted by Prim
After years of loving the books and less time (but still significant) of loving the movie interpretation I have to say that for Frodo to be overlooked and unloved is part of his destiny.
I'd almost worry if movie-Frodo was universally hailed as the hero; it would seem to indicate the character wasn't handled in a way true to the book. As was talked about earlier in this thread, that was part of Elijah's courage in taking on the role. (I didn't actually mention EW in the essay, as it didn't really fit, but I do talk about the movie presenting us with Frodo's "reality" and make a couple of other statements that just assume the acting truthfully presents the character.)

Trying to write about any aspect of Frodo (book and/or movie) is frustrating (to me :rolleyes: ) because one thing leads into another, but you have to stop somewhere, so there's so much left unsaid, even about the one specific thing you're trying to talk about... and it really needs to be a book :eek: .

Wecome back, Blossom :) :cool: -- Ah, the wonders of the internet :rolleyes: ... But, yeah, it sure doesn't take long to rack up hundreds of those screencaps, does it :eek: ? My program will only store 999 of them, so every once in awhile I have to "dump" into a new file to fool it into thinking it isn't full. (But that's in large part due to my penchant for frame-by-frame study, and my packrat nature of not wanting to delete even caps I'm sure I'll never use :o ).

Hi, LEK, good to see you dropping in.

And I'm sure I'm forgetting a lot, but I can't forget to wish Sheryl a Happy Birthday and Wonderful Year!

Tried to decide how to celebrate and thought we could be "twins"--hope it doesn't mess with anyone's mind: it's only for today :p . (I did refrain from making us identical twins. ;) )

Happy Birthday, Sheryl!


*BIG CRUSHING HUGS* for Viola and Blossom!

You guys have been missed! Aww Blossom, in the Faculty there's never such a thing as 'too much' or 'too long'. :k How'd you survive for one month?! I was back in my hometown for a few days, and found out to my horror that my dad's computer was out of order, hence cutting me off from the 'net. Argh. I am so glad to be back with you all on-line now, never mind how that would sound to sane RL people. :p :D

But Blossom, I'm sorry to hear about you losing all those lovely treasures. :( Well, you do have those precious new screencaps now, and although I'm not one who stayed with IM, I'm actually hoping you will so that you'll be able to share what you've done! Screencap-viewing addict, that's me. ;) Btw, thanks for putting me in the same paragraph as tg and deluby. There's no way in heck I could even dream of being on par with them, but your post means I can sorta dream!


That's a great dancingFrodo pic, Tathar. Anyway, *hugs* - we know how that goes, yeah. So rant away here, amongst friends. We get to talking more good Frodo talk, and that can never be a bad thing. :)

And Prim, great words in your post there. Ditto. {{{Prim}}}


Luth - thanks for the German interview. I will, by some sneaky means or other, get to watch that video. I *will*. If I can grab the other lab computer early enough in the day, before anyone else comes in ...

Rikka and Brunhild - for all that acting info I insert here a wishful :notworthy: smiley here. Wow. And Welcome, Brunhild, thou of zero posts! That's a compliment, mind you. :) That EW quote in your sig is one that makes me LOL every time. I can actually just imagine him saying that, in complete geek mode. Wonder if he were wearing glasses on that day.

My browser is refusing to load the images on tg's 'First "Attack"?' page, and Maeg's John Howe link. Sigh. I so want to see them too. But at least now I can quote John Howe proper; last time I merely paraphrased him (quite relieved to see I wasn't too far off):

John Howe
The main difficulty is depicting Frodo in the face of Elijah Wood's magnificent portrayal of him. Every time I try to draw Frodo, it's Elijah that appears. Christopher Lee has done the same to me for Saruman. After years of people reproaching me my defining of elements and characters in Middle Earth, thus ruining their private pantheon of images, it's in their shoes that I now trudge along.

Well, considering what Howe said about EW, how could I not quote him? Besides, I think it is possible to imagine Howe actually saying these words aloud. This is the guy who spent like almost the whole EW-as-Frodo-considering-his-doom-at-Amon-Hen scene talking about types of movie swords, scoffing about Conan the Barbarian, and waxing about how much realism goes into making LOTR weapons. I would have trouted him for disrespect to Elijah if I weren't half-swooning for all that movie prop talk. :D


Going back to 'First "Attack"?' -- I'm not surprised that tg would notice it and lovingly serial-screencap it :) but I was kinda surprised to realise that the Faculty hadn't talked about it before. It's sorta tailor-made for Faculty scrutiny, isn't it, esp. considering how it's just that small little thing happening right at the edge of the screen? It's great that the discussion has come up now. I always saw it as primarily being a Frodo in shock moment because he never thought the Ring could do, but I always wondered if there was something more to it too (like that's a surprise), so I'm perfectly happy to go with tg's theory. ;)

While we're talking about these heart attacks, something I'd noticed a while back. Remember the TTT preview that had Frodo holding the Ring in his palm and gasping, "It's the Ring. It's getting heavier."? We don't get the exact same angle in the movie, but it is the same post-heart attack moment at Emyn Muil. However, in the final scene that made it into the movie, there's also a who-says-what dialogue shift. It's Sam who asks "It's the Ring, isn't it?" and Frodo replies, "It's getting heavier." He offers no other info, but Sam does give him this look, which Frodo steadfastly ignores and he then switches the subjec to food. That small difference between preview and movie makes a whole world of difference, I think. MovieSam asking about the Ring tells us that he's fully onto Frodo and he's a smart one too, mere servant or no; and of course it tells us Frodo isn't one to complain. That's what I really, really like from that scene. The impression that if Sam hadn't asked, it's possible Frodo wouldn't have even offered the information about the Ring getting heavier.

Which Sheryl had mentioned in her post already, but I can't go back and quote because I'm writing this off-line. {{{Sheryl}}}


-- oh well, tg and Maeg have posted while I was off-line, so now I'm off to try tg's page again, and read the essay. Thanks Maeg for quoting Padfoot here. I was every bit as moved by that one myself. :)

((((Faculty)))) Thanks for the understanding. :) :k That's a great essay, tg, and I do see what you're saying -- although I have to say I still think they should have left Weathertop, and especially his defiance at the Ford, just as they were. :o I know that it is part of Frodo's "fate" to be an unsung hero, but I can't help being frustrated by his lack of recognition. I do think that the movie, while it does display his strength well at times, is just showing the Ring's power over him growing far too quickly. The attack-on-Sam scene would never have happened at that point in the book (even if they had gone to Osgiliath) -- IIRC, the worst Frodo ever does, even under the influence of the Ring, is to yell at Sam a bit. And that when he's still dazed by poison, too. :(

That was my biggest frustration, though I've pretty much made peace with the changes to his character in FotR. :rolleyes: :) But I will refrain from passing final judgement on TTT until the SE DVD is out. And if Peter can get Shelob's Lair right, then he will have redeemed the entire movie trilogy in my eyes. :D

Can't stay, but I wanted to make sure I came by to say:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, SHERYL!!


Welcome back, Blossom! and Lady EK!!

See, I knew I'd forget something :rolleyes: ! Blossom, ainon's post reminded me that when I first read about your losses last night, I was going to mention that the Weathertop pics are still on my website--although the ISP doesn't allow direct linking to an image, they are completely "right-click, save" friendly. If all you had before was the 22 frame-by-frame caps of the sword coming out of Frodo's shoulder, I should warn you that there are now 128 caps of that scene, divided into seven pages :eek: ! What can I say? I'm weak :rolleyes: . Those multiple pages were enough trouble to link that I think they've earned a permanent place on the site, even though I'll have to take other pages down to add new ones. Here's the main page of the Weathertop caps (BTW, the infamous 22 are on the final page of the seven):Weathertop (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id139.htm)

And I was also going to say that I do still have an IM account. I'ts the cheapest one--87 cents a month, IIRC--and doesn't have a lot of storage space so I can't leave things there forever, and have to post any series on my website. When IM started charging, Bridget posted about a free site she'd found and deluby did the same about what she considered the best paid site, so that info is around... but since I have enough to deal with right now without changing that whole setup, too, I decided to cough up the 87 cents, at least for one year.

-----------------------

Tathar--I know what you're saying, and I agree--especially about the ford--but maybe for a different reason. With the scenes on Weathertop and at the ford changed or eliminated, we lose the two instances where Frodo calls on the aid of Elbereth, and I believe they're there for a reason. And in the barrow-wight scene, which is another courageous event for Frodo, he calls on Tom Bombadil when he realizes he can't cope with the situation by himself. I guess what I'd like to see is clear-cut "evidence" in the movies that Frodo knows the quest doesn't depend on his own strength, and that asking for aid when you need it doesn't show a lack of courage but rather a lot of wisdom.

[I'd started writing about how I read the Weathertop and Osgiliath scenes, but stopped as it doesn't seem the right time or place. The last thing a good rant needs is someone coming in and "explaining things" :rolleyes: . (((Tathar))) ]

And now, even if someone has simulposted again, I have to go! I've already not left myself enough time to get ready for a meeting (and I'm giving someone else a ride, so I can't shrug it off :rolleyes: ).

Thanks, tg! :k Yes, I also see what you mean about the calling upon Elbereth -- my mom (who is very much a purist Tolkien fan now...) and I have discussed it before, and we both agree that (a) it was an important, even essential part of Weathertop, the Ford, and especially Shelob's Lair, (b) that it had BETTER be in PJ's portrayal of Shelob's Lair, and (c) basically what you said about it. Tolkien talked about it in one of the letters, didn't he? Guess I'll have to go look... :rolleyes:

Originally posted by tgshaw
I'd started writing about how I read the Weathertop and Osgiliath scenes, but stopped as it doesn't seem the right time or place. The last thing a good rant needs is someone coming in and "explaining things" :rolleyes:

Oh, feel free to "explain things" -- I think I'm done ranting for a while, and if you disagree with me on the Weathertop and Osgiliath scenes, I'd be interested to know what you think. :D ((tg))

Originally posted by Brunhild, regarding Method acting:
(b) impose the character's mindset, circumstances, and physique on yourself in order to record the largely instinctive expressions generated by your subconsciousness. (Part (b) can be implemented by using your imagination or by really eating live roaches a la Nicolas Cage.)
This reminds me of a famous story about Sir Laurence Olivier and Dustin Hoffman when they they were filming Marathon Man. Dustin Hoffman arrived on set on morning looking tired and haggard, because he'd stayed up all night to prepare for a scene in which his character hadn't slept all night. Olivier looked at him in astonishment and said, "Dear boy, haven't you ever heard of acting?" :p

Tathar, Hobmom, dear ladies,
no need to be so upset on this matter... This reaction of hostility and denial of Frodo and his type of courage by majority of viewers (and even readers) is almost inevitable... Frodo will NEVER be a hero for everybody, I'm absolutely sure in it. The majority simply unable to understand him... Especially in the movie where PJ consciously stressed the unusual, non-traditional heroism of Frodo from the very beginning - from casting for this role EW... ... But this is their problem…

And I think PJ is quite right to do Frodo in this way - because in general this is what the LOTR story is about - about inner heroism and courage of soul and spirit in hopeless situation... May be all of you will not agree with me… But I'm not sorry at all that PJ got Frodo's sword actions out of the film. From my point of view all these Frodo's traditional "sword-play heroism" moments from the first part of FOTR (like Amon Sul, Barrows, or Ford) in some way had come to the plot from early variants of the book – when it was only a fairy tale sequel of Hobbit… Frodo there is more like Bilbo, not like himself in later books… Well this is in some way still brave Bingo Badding, heroic hobbit… :) Notice, no any signs of heroic deeds of this kind later in the books (except Moria, but there everybody had to fight for survival)!)


Below I repost some parts from my CoE post on this subject.
…I also want to rise my voice in defense of Mr. Frodo Baggins is the movie. From my point of view he is very courageous and strong person. (…)But arguing about the ability of Frodo(Wood) to fight the ring, nobody for some reason does mention the other great battle Frodo is engaged in - in PJ movie (it's not so obvious in the book). I'm speaking about his battle for Smeagol's soul.

From my point of view in the movie Frodo is more merciful than even in the book... Frodo fights for saving Smeagols soul with such passion, compassion, understanding and pity for the poor creature (who just tried to kill him, by the way!), and he shows such a purity and force of his soul in this fight, that he wins this battle... Battle that seemed remediless! He brings Speagol back from dark and evil depths of Gollum's soul - brings him back to love and warmth...

In the book Smeagol always was under Gollum's control. In the movie compassion and mercy of Frodo gives Smeagol a chance to say Gollum - "Leave now and never come back"... And only by the ill luck everything was ruined again...

And I ask you: a saving of a fallen soul - isn't it a real feat of a spirit? Isn't it a real indication of great spiritual strength and purity of the Ringbearer in the movie? For me there were exactly those qualities, by which he was chosen for his quest...

- - - - -
tg,
thanks a lot, very interesting thoughts.
- - - - -

- - - -
BLOSSOM,
I like your thoughts about Osgiliath scene... After every next viewing of TTT I begin to love it (and specially Wood's performance in it) more and more. For sure the boy rised there to a new level of acting.
- - - -
Sheril!
Happy birthday!
- - -
ainon
I'm glad you are back! :)

I'm clueless as to how did I manage to have zero posts. Probably typed the first one having the One Ring on :p

Here's my simplistic defense of Frodo Baggins: A month of fierce fighting is a vacation compared to a month of resisting vile torture and cunning interrogation by the Gestapo.

Brunhild,
right you are! In fact this is a very reasonable and true comparison...

Brunhild, it doesn't get more true and to the point than that!

Gladys - LOL! :)

Tg; - what can I say? Your "On not Getting Frodo" is insightful, wonderful....... and chilling!! http://thorstenkaye.com/bowing.gif
Thank you! (It even made me change my user text!)

Otherwise I've been to the cinema today to watch Chicago. OK enough and quite entertaining film, but it made me lose the next-to-last bit of respect I might have had for the Oscars. THAT film will probably take home the major awards, even though it's up against TTT? :confused:

Ugh; - I need to post a picture to take my thoughts away from that........... (from councilofelrond.com)

http://councilofelrond.com/modules/My_eGllery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1145.jpg

Rikka, the points about Smeagol/Gollum are good. I've been wondering though, how to read Gollum's winning over Smeagol in the film; - it's so closely connected to what Gollum/Smeagol sees as Frodo tricking him into captivity. That "Master trickst us" is the reason Gollum reappears and takes control. But later on, as Gollum and the 2 hobbits are being dragged against their will to Osgiliath, and in Osgiliath itself, Gollum has ample evidence that Frodo and Sam are just prisoners too, being treated rather harshly at that, and Elijah manages to show us (and Gollum) a Frodo at least who is quite desperate..... This is quite different from in the book, where I think Gollum doesn't witness anything other than Faramir and Frodo being very polite to each other and seemingly be on equal standing. Why doesn't the Smeagol side react to Frodo's captivity, why doesn't he consider the "trickery" in light of Frodo being a prisoner too? Is it just that once the Gollum personality managed to regain control, there was no going back, and no mercy for anyone who withheld the precious from him?

I wonder if we'll yet get to see the near-repentance of Gollum, or if RotK heads directly to Shelob's lair without pause......

Maeglian,
thank you for a pic...

It's difficult to give you an exact answer about Gollum/Smeagol - mostly because there are so many cuts and holes in the Frodo-Sam-Gollum part of the movie... Something else could happen on their way to Osgiliath, and in Osgiliath, too, that we still didn't see... Alas! :(

But I think that in general the greatest and unrecoverable damage to Smeagol was done by that involuntary Frodo's treachery at Forbidden Pool. And it seems to me that this treachery of confidence was even more painful to Smeagol because by his nature he was a tricky traitor himself... In fact this thief, traitor and murderer gave his confidence to someone for the first time in 500 years, right? And this someone betrayed him... that wound was almost vital for him - it ruins his just appeared confidence in a "Good Master" and gave Gollum a hole to come back... But Smeagol tried to resist Gollum's accuses of Frodo for some time... In fact, in Osgiliath we still see Smeagol (may be he tried to justify him Master exactly with the same reasons as you adduce - that Frodo was prisoner himself)... But I think, in this lost creature a new-born "good Smeagol" was too weak to survive such a blow and a pressure of returned Gollum...

But it's interesting that in the last Gollum/Smeagol argue at the end of the movie the final turning point for Gollum regaining control over Smeagol, is Smeagol's hatred... to Sam!
But Smeagol is still alive at the end of TTT (while the last line in the film - "Follow me!" - was said by Gollum...) :(
So I think that PJ will do it in the RotK like in the book... we'll see some last glimpses of "good Smeagol" at the stairs of Cirith Ungol (I think there will be this episode with Smeagol-Deagol story), but then Smeagol will be finally and completely destroyed by Sam's roughness...

Hi everyone! :)

Not had time to look at all the posts, will do soon, so it's just a really quick post tonight, cos I'm working early tomorrow.

Hello to Blossom! {{{hugs}}} Glad to have you back with us! I was wondering where you'd got too - thank goodness you got your connection back and Jed sends doggy kisses to Holly :D That's a shame you lost all your stuff though :(

Also a Happy Birthday to Sheryl!!! {{hugs}}

Maeg - congrats on your 300 posts :)

And thanks to Prim for the hugs! Have some back! :D {{{Prim}}}

Thanks everyone for all your photos and musings!

Cheers,

Luth x

Happy Birthday, Sheryl!!!

http://thepusherrobot.perlmonk.org/chubs/images/other/sherylbday.jpg

Have found a new image editing program...am never going back to MS Paint again.:p

Hope you're having a wonderful birthday!:k

tgshaw, thanks to the link to your essay - just brilliant, along with so many of the posts here! Though I'm a Sam-centric (no, really?:rolleyes: ) I do love Frodo too, and am just amazed by his determination and just how much he went through! I have run across Tolkien fans who just don't like hobbits - actually actively dislike them - including Frodo - and I just don't understand it.:confused: Don't they realize where they would be without Frodo? (And Sam, and Merry...)

But part of what I like about Frodo is that he's not a big hero like Merry and Pippin (and Sam, if he had known it.;) ) Somehow - if this makes any sense - I don't think I could feel close to Frodo at all if he was praised and popular and everyone loved him. I think I'd be scared of him - well, intimidated, at any rate. Being quiet, unassuming, not wanting fame, is part of what makes Frodo who he is. And now I have to run - am I making sense here at all?:confused:

Thank you for the welcomes, Blossom et al.

Maeglin - For your CoE quote (and bolstering of it), and tgshaw - for your essay 'On Getting Frodo', thank you (and ALL the other posters here for putting such thoughts into words). As one of you said, and I agree, it's most difficult to start commenting on Frodo because you're forced to stop somewhere - when you're no where near finished!

tgshaw - Was relieved that you pointed out in your compelling essay that Frodo, (while sensitive to forces of beauty and goodness that are outside himself), unlike the Elves, does not know a 'God'. If one thinks of religions as metaphores for the 'life force', they are, when applied or used, a means of coping with daily and catastrophic hardship. Frodo has no such, only a general sense of hope, gained partly through his eductation (of history) and partly from his own instinct (for lack of a better word). He does not even have what Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, Mother Theresa, Albert Schweitzer etc. seemed to have - images of the divine, to turn to when all other guidance is lost. This makes him, as you say, all the more a hero.

Maeglin - Thanks for that awesome screen cap of Frodo reeling from the Faramir incident. Just back from my 4th veiwing of TT and that shot sums up the essence of the movie for me.

Brunhild - From where is the EJW quote in your sig from (Let's loot the bitch...)??? AND Wohooo!!!! - a Jethro Tull fan as well - :D

Bridget, you make perfect sense to me. That's just another of my many reasons for loving Frodo too. :)

Posting and running ... will come back later if I can. But I just had to share this one now - it first appeared during the run-up to TTT but I hadn't been able to find it again since. Forgive the blurriness of the pic - that'd be because VillagePhoto needed to 'optimise' it.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1866686.jpg

Originally posted by Maeglian
Brunhild, it doesn't get more true and to the point than that!
IIRC, JRRT said much the same thing (although he didn't specifically mention the Gestapo) when responding to the letter that said Frodo should have been hung as a traitor--he compared Frodo's situation to that of prisoners who've been tortured and brainwashed, and said that there comes a point beyond which a person can no longer be held responsible for not resisting.

Gladys - LOL! :)
I was glad Dustin Hoffman was able to poke fun at his own "obsessive" approach to acting in Tootsie--his character is so hard to work with that he can't get any acting jobs. He finally lands the part of a tomato in a commercial, but walks off the set because the director can't tell him what the tomato's "motivation" is :D :D .

(It even made me change my user text!)
Maeg--do you have anything specific in mind? :eek: :eek:

Rikka, the points about Smeagol/Gollum are good. I've been wondering though, how to read Gollum's winning over Smeagol in the film; - it's so closely connected to what Gollum/Smeagol sees as Frodo tricking him into captivity. That "Master trickst us" is the reason Gollum reappears and takes control. But later on, as Gollum and the 2 hobbits are being dragged against their will to Osgiliath, and in Osgiliath itself, Gollum has ample evidence that Frodo and Sam are just prisoners too, being treated rather harshly at that, and Elijah manages to show us (and Gollum) a Frodo at least who is quite desperate.....
IMHO, we can't expect Smeagol/Gollum to react rationally to things. The words to "Gollum's Song" seem right on target to me; he's been rationalizing things for so long that he's going to see things from his own skewed viewpoint: "I can say you didn't try." Frodo betrayed him, and that's all he's going to allow himself to see, because it gives him another rationalization to justify himself. And Rikka's point that as a trickster and thief himself, he's going to be especially sensitive to that, is very good.

It also seems to me that this is another of PJ's ways of piling more guilt on Frodo, as he did by having him make the choice to go through Moria--even if hatred for Sam also affects Smeagol, it's Frodo's "betrayal" that allowed Gollum to come back. This is really interesting psychologically, because the way Smeagol is able to get rid of Gollum is to trust that Master will take care of him, so he no longer needs the Gollum side of himself in order to survive. The Smeagol side just isn't strong enough to trust that he can take care of himself--and maybe he can't. So as soon as there's doubt that Master will take care of him, Smeagol "needs" Gollum to fill the role again.

In the movie (as in the book IMHO), Gollum/Smeagol is one of the most complex--and IMVHO realistic--characters psychologically. Even ignoring the whole CGI thing, the character is amazingly well done.

naiad--Thanks for the comments. Not to go into a whole spiel on the different fates of Elves and Men :rolleyes: , but anything Frodo knows in regard to the supernatural he learned from Bilbo, and anything Bilbo knows he learned from the Elves. The Elves are tied to the Valar, not to Eru--so when Frodo's looking for supernatural help he calls on Elbereth rather than Eru/Iluvatar. And, as you pointed out, even with Elbereth--while Frodo calls on her name for help, he doesn't look to her as a source of guidance for what he should do; that seems to come from within himself. Hmmm... that line of thought sends ideas off in too many directions regarding the eventual fates of Frodo and Bilbo, so I think I'd better stop there ;) . Although the following is related:

[OT rant mode]Even though I'm Christian (and Catholic), I get upset when Christians try to "appropriate" LotR as a Christian story, and I think Tolkien would have, too (actually, he did, more than once, in his letters). Part of Tolkien's bedrock of belief--and, so, part of the bedrock of LotR--is that people who would be considered "pagan" by much of modern religion can be not only good but heroically good. When people start saying things like, "Frodo symbolizes the Christian journey," they are turning JRRT's message upside down (and I'm going to be very bold and not put an "IMHO" on that). Athough there have been people who've launched terrible abberations of it over the last two millennia, orthodox Catholic belief is that a person does not need to be Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form they may see salvation), and Tolkien as a strongly orthodox Catholic would certainly have wanted no part of any nonsense that said otherwise--he had great respect for the "pagans" whose literature he studied and had no problem making similar "pagans" his heroes because he never saw them as as any lesser than himself. (BTW, I've put "pagan" in quotes throughout because I'm not referring to people who practice paganism as a religion, but to people other religions might give that label to.) [/OT rant mode]

------------

I saw TTT yesterday for the first time in a couple of months. I took notes (in the dark :rolleyes: ) on things I hadn't noticed before and this morning am trying to read them. I know some of the comments are about Frodo--IIRC, even one or two related to things we've discussed recently--and when I've deciphered what I can I'll post them :o .

naiad,
The "Let's loot the bitch..." quote is from an "Entertainment Weekly" article. There's some funny context to it (http://www.ew.com/ew/article/commentary/0,6115,402382~7~~,00.html[URL]).

tgshaw,
A propos "JRRT said much the same thing": I've always suspected that Tolkien was somewhat simplistic too :D [Hark and lo! Do I see a leviathan trout coming my way? :rolleyes: ]

Gladys,
Laurence Olivier apparently knew the perils of excessive naturalism. Have you seen his Hamlet jump down from a rampart to skewer Claudius? Olivier did the leap himself, rendering Claudius's stand-in unconscious and knocking out a couple of the poor man's teeth :cool: :D

Originally posted by Brunhild
tgshaw,
A propos "JRRT said much the same thing": I've always suspected that Tolkien was somewhat simplistic too :D [Hark and lo! Do I see a leviathan trout coming my way? :rolleyes: ]
Well, there's simplistic and then there's simple... The truth isn't always complicated ;) . Although reading through all the threads/posts/writings from the last 50 years arguing about whether or not Frodo was "guilty" might make it seem pretty complicated, IMVHO JRRT's (and your) simple parallel makes sense to me, and most of the other arguments just muddy the water. JRRT's thoughts are (of course :) ) in beloved Letter 246.

Gladys,
Laurence Olivier apparently knew the perils of excessive naturalism. Have you seen his Hamlet jump down from a rampart to skewer Claudius? Olivier did the leap himself, rendering Claudius's stand-in unconscious and knocking out a couple of the poor man's teeth :cool: :D
Sound's like Viggo's several incidents while filming LotR :eek: . Every time I see that shot where he broke his toes (kicking the helmet beside the pile of orc carcasses) I think of PJ's, "I thought he was just doing some really forceful acting." (But it was Viggo who got the teeth knocked out--while filming a different scene.) Of course, Viggo had a penchant for "naturalism," too--wanted to do all his own stunts, took care of his own horse, wore his sword, camped out... Quite a contrast next to Elijah's snapping in and out of character instantaneously! But it seems they respected each other's acting ability.

After I'd done my previous post (related to naiad's comments), I realized it was really all in connection to book-Frodo (which most, but not all, of the essay was). It got me thinking about that same issue (God, Valar, etc.) in regard to movie-Frodo. After FotR, I figured PJ had just pulled a Bakshi and eliminated any reference to "higher beings" in the story--because neither of Frodo's Elbereth moments were left in. But after TTT, I think his idea is exactly what naiad said, even in relation to the Valar--that is, only Elves have the knowledge. In TTT, Arwen asks that the Valar protect Aragorn--and her prayer isn't explained but just treated as a "normal" thing. Her "What grace is given to me" line in FotR isn't as explicit, but could be seen as the same kind of thing. (I've thought all along that it's interesting that her line there comes at the same point in the story as does Frodo's second calling on Elbereth in the book--Aragorn fills in for E. the first time ;) .)

So, guess what I'm trying to say is that PJ & Co. haven't eliminated all reference to higher beings, they've just made them the sole "property" of the Elves. As much as I miss Frodo's moments, I have to admit that was probably the right decision for the movie; otherwise it'd have to get into Bilbo's entire history, and then explain his passing along his knowledge to Frodo, and before too long it would have used a lot of screentime. So I can see why they might have decided not to have mortals--either Hobbits or Men--"in on" the Valar in the movie.

But even in Tolkien's writings, Eru/Iluvatar isn't a personal god. He's very removed from his creation, which he's left in the hands of the Valar. So even if Frodo knew about Iluvatar, he wouldn't be likely to expect any help or guidance from him.

orthodox Catholic belief is that a person does not need to be Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form they may see salvation)

tgshaw - this both fascinates and relieves me!

Could you point me to the texts that explain this, or just tell me a little more about this belief (PM, perhaps?)

Your essay - is it on your website?

(OK, I'm not really here - I have mounds of work to do!)

tgshaw,
Just a brief comment on VM and EW. Switching the Frodo mode off and on instantaneously could be explained by the "acting language" simile in my first post (aka Brunhild's Letter 0 :D ). IMVHO, a really good actor [read: EW ;) ] should be able to speak his character's "dialect" of this "language" without "cue cards" such as prop swords and actual injuries. However, the final result may be more important than the road to it, whence their mutual respect.

Originally posted by Niphredil
Could you point me to the texts that explain this, or just tell me a little more about this belief (PM, perhaps?)

Your essay - is it on your website?

(OK, I'm not really here - I have mounds of work to do!)


Hi, Niph--glad to see you drop in! The essay's on my website. The link to the page is: On "Not Getting" Frodo" (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id162.htm)

I'll go ahead and PM you on the other (not til tonight, though, [i]after work :rolleyes: ).

--------

Brunhild--I agree about the mutual respect: I don't think either actor would really care how the other one got to the end result.

....he had great respect for the "pagans" whose literature he studied and had no problem making similar "pagans" his heroes because he never saw them as as any lesser than himself.OK, here it comes, there's no way I can't go *thud* over that! But it *is* for Tolkien, so.......... http://www.thorstenkaye.com/thud.gif

I don't have any problem with film Frodo not calling for Elbereth those times he does so in the book. I think the films show clearly enough that he is dependent on "something besides the will of evil", and the help of others. Even though these others are beings less superior than Elbereth, it illustrates the point well enough for me. Frodo's fully aware of his need for help, too, and does not hesitate to request or accept it (till he comes to believe that those helping him will fall to the Ring one by one so he'll have to go on alone.) In fact, this forms part of my "Weathertop as a film statement about the entire Frodo character development" theory, which I may eventually make myself write down and post. However, if he'd called for Elbereth, or the Valar in general, they needn't have explained that in the film more than in the book, I suppose?


Brunhild, thank you for providing the background for that signature quote. I guess being repeatedly called a little boy at 21 could make *anyone* quite cranky. Normally, EJW seems to be so charmingly open and relaxed about his height, at least. Thanks to Elve, again, I've had the opportunity to watch the talk show appearance he made with Caroline Rhea (?) back when TTT premiered. He's very direct and humorous in commenting how Liv Tyler is really much taller than him and how he had to stand on a box for the EW front page photo.

BTW, who is Caroline Rhea, is hers a well known talk show? I liked that one about 100 times better than that Leno show.

Maeg--do you have anything specific in mind? Insert evil smirk indicating Maeg considering mayhem.....not!!
No, it's simply that your essay made me realize those words are the *perfect* companion for my avatar. Spooky, angsty, dark, the both of them.

I have to maintain and emphasize my angst appreciator apprenticeship, after all. :rolleyes:

When people start saying things like, "Frodo symbolizes the Christian journey," they are turning JRRT's message upside down (and I'm going to be very bold and not put an "IMHO" on that).


I hate to do this, but... :( Personally, I see Frodo very much as the Christian journey, though I wouldn't say that he "symbolizes" it. And though JRRT disliked having his work labeled as an allegory, I do not think he would object to those of us who find parallels with his characters and Christianity. As I've discussed with a friend of mine (a fellow Christian and Tolkien fan), when Frodo accepts the Ring as his burden and task, and chooses to follow the "Narrow Road" into Mordor, he is like a Christian who accepts his own "cross" and chooses to follow the Narrow Road, through "Mordor" -- with the difference being, of course, that we, as Christians, walk the Narrow Road that leads to Heaven, only going through our own "Mordors" along the way. But in that way, also, Frodo is similar: he, far beyond his own expectations and hopes, goes through Mordor to come out safely on the "other side" and is rewarded in the end, by recieving passage to the Blessed Realm, which, I suppose, is as close to Heaven as there is in Middle-Earth -- the earth itself, I mean. I'm not going to say that Frodo's journey is exactly the Christian's journey, but there are certainly strong parallels. One of my main reasons for loving Frodo -- he is a very Christ-like figure; a perfect example to we Christians on devotion and endurance on our "journey."

orthodox Catholic belief is that a person does not need to be Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form they may see salvation)

:eek: My understanding is that you are either "saved" -- a follower of Christ -- or you are not. It does not seem to me that there is any middle ground. As Jesus said Himself, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one gets to the Father except through me." (My emphasis, obviously.) Doesn't seem like there's much room for argument. "Catholic" means Christian, so we both believe in the same God and follow the same Christ. :confused: I can't think that Tolkien would have seen it that way -- he was close friends with C. S. Lewis, who was a very, very devout Christian and wrote many books on the subject of salvation. :(



Sorry if I've offended anyone with my slightly passionate opinions. :) :k

'Fraid I have nothing more to add on any other subject...except that I think I'm getting my Huck Finn DVD today! Yay! :D :rolleyes:

Edit: Something I've just thought of, re: Christianity and LotR. I would recommend that everyone check out this WONDERFUL story by fanfiction author Jo Cronkle (hope she doesn't mind me linking to it), Beyond the Havens (http://www.fanfiction.net/read.php?storyid=1207894). It's absolutely beautiful, and IMHO, is a perfect blend of Christianity and LotR -- one that Tolkien himself would appreciate, I think. He was the one, after all, who said that, "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work, unconsciously so at first, but consciously so in the revision. That is why I have not put in (or cut out) practically all references to anything like 'religion'... to cults and practices in the imaginary world... for the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism." :D

Originally posted by Maeglian
...In fact, this forms part of my "Weathertop as a film statement about the entire Frodo character development theory", which I may eventually make myself write down and post.
Well, you're not expecting to get out of it now that you've made it public are you :p ?? Seriously, it sounds intriguing, especially since that was a scene in the movie I was originally very negative about, then after it was explained to me I grew to like it. So I enjoy seeing any insights at all regarding that particular scene.

However, if he'd called for Elbereth, or the Valar in general, they needn't have explained that in the film more than in the book, I suppose?
As someone who read LotR years before anyone but Tolkien knew who Elbereth was, I didn't have any problem with her not being explained in the book. In fact, the mystery around her just made her better, IMHO. But what the book shows us that the movies don't is how Bilbo and Frodo would know about her when no other hobbits do. I think we get a better idea in the book of Bilbo being a scholar. In the movie we don't get his poem about Eärendil, his chiding of Frodo for not knowing what "dunadan" means, his going out for a walk to "look at the stars of Elbereth," or any hint of his translation work. We're also not told about his frequent trips away from home, or the fact that both he and Frodo (probably) talk with the Elves who are passing through the Shire. In fact, the SE movie takes it the other direction, with the "Wood Elves" being a curiosity to be hidden from.

I don't suppose all that would have to be explained in order for Frodo to use Elbereth's name--I'm probably just thinking that because it's explained in the book (while Elbereth herself isn't), it would be helpful in the movie. But probably not necessary. I don't have any trouble with PJ giving the knowledge only to the Elves, though, if that's what he's actually doing. It makes things simpler and also sets the Elves more apart from mortals, which IMHO PJ's also aiming for. It will be interesting to see how that plays out at the Grey Havens.

---------------

Tathar posted while I was writing--I don't want to get too far OT with this, but will try to say just as much as is necessary to show where Tolkien's coming from.

(And, yes, Tathar, we'll just have to disagree, I'm afraid--there are an awful lot of Christians in the world and we don't all see things the same way. I purposely stay out of religious threads on message boards for just that reason--when I talk about Tolkien's faith here, I try to do so in a way that illuminates what he wrote and thought, without getting into a discussion of the veracity of it.)

Catholic belief (as well as that of many Protestants) is that each person is judged on his or her "own light"--what they know and believe. I think you'll find this in CSL, too (even though he was Protestant), when he talks about the people [can't remember their name?] who live in the desert near Narnia. (And he kind of hits you over the head with it at the end of Til We Have Faces, but he does it in such a profound and amazing way that I'll forgive him his lack of subtlety there.)

Catholics do believe that all salvation comes through Christ. But we believe that Christ's work of salvation was for everyone, whether they know him or not. Now, if a person rejects what they truly believe to be right, that's a different matter--they can refuse the gift and choose to live in the darkness, but that's true whether or not they believe in Christ.



Of course, there are Scripture passages, and logical arguments, and Tradition (with a capital "T"), and teachings from Vatican II, and any number of things on the matter--but I hope those aren't needed in order to see how this fits with Tolkien (who, interestingly enough, created a cosmos without a hell).

---And Tathar, I totally agree with your distinction between [i]applying characters and events in LotR to the Christian life, and saying it's a purposeful allegory by Tolkien. It's only the latter group JRRT got upset with, and that's the group I was referring to when I talked about people "appropriating" LotR for their own beliefs (that is, deciding it's theirs and no one else's).

a cosmos without a hell

It's strange how the name Udun appears (in the Appendices, I think) with the word "Hell" in brackets after it, isn't it? Maybe he meant hell on earth?

The very name of Hel is Norse/pagan, I suppose.

I suppose Sauron and Saruman just dissolved into nothing, and that was it.

Melkor was cast into the Void, though, not annihilated.

(These are just musings. I am very tired and off to bed!)

Thanks for that post, tg.

Originally posted by Niphredil
Melkor was cast into the Void, though, not annihilated.

I guess I was thinking in terms of a hell where Elves and/or mortals might end up after death. -- I don't know the Sil well enough to know what happened to Melkor, or to even know what the Void might actually be. But I don't remember any Elves or mortals being "threatened" with it (unless I'm forgetting something--which is entirely possible :o ). Seems like we get either the Halls of Mandos for the Elves until the end of the world, or the Timeless Halls for mortals--and for the Elves after the end of the world.

(Actually, even the existence of the Void--which I really hadn't remembered--is interesting as far as Tolkien's beliefs. Catholics do believe there is a hell--because in order for humans to have free will, they have to have an actual choice--but we're not "required" to believe any humans have actually ended up there. Hmmm... now I suppose I'll need to go read up on the Void!)

Well, I had great hopes of doing a serious long post today, but it doesn't look like that's going to happen. But, thanks, all, for the birthday wishes. :) Maeg, how did you know I love purple? :p tg, much as I appreciate being twins for a day, I think the "People who don't "Get" Frodo" essay has got to be the best birthday "present" I got. :) And, Prim, when I was a kid, living in Minnesota, it generally snowed or was snowy on my birthday - although it was in the sixties, here, and yesterday I sat in a lawn chair outside and watched the kids get good and muddy and didn't even think (much) about the crepes I should have been making...

Bridget, that looks like a purchased cake. :D

Good to see you, Blossom and Viola!

Originally posted by tgshaw

orthodox Catholic belief is that a person does not need to be Christian to be "saved" (in whatever form they may see salvation), and Tolkien as a strongly orthodox Catholic would certainly have wanted no part of any nonsense that said otherwise--he had great respect for the "pagans" whose literature he studied and had no problem making similar "pagans" his heroes because he never saw them as as any lesser than himself.

There's a passage in Romans in support of this, I believe, where Paul says people will be judged on what they know - i.e., if they never had the opportunity to hear of Christ, then God does not expect them to have made a decision for Christ or whatever. God does consider circumstances. Since a foundational Christian belief is that salvation is a gift of grace, and not earned, I've never quite understood the argument that people have to jump through the right hoops to be saved. (Don't mean to imply that's what you're saying, Tathar - I'm talking more of the 'earn your way to heaven' crowd, who come up with all manner of cultural rules that have little to do with the Bible.)

Bother, I have fended off three chillins trying to write this much - should have just done a "post and run" like ainon, but there's far too much interesting stuff going on here! Maybe I can get back after the kids are in bed, if I don't crash myself...

Sheryl

Niphredil,
The ancient german word "Hel" originally meant a hollow space underground. In Norse mythology, Hel is the name of the queen of Niflheim, the world of the dead. BTW Tolkien's Valar resemble the not infrequently erring Asas (Norse gods); Melkor would be the perfidious Loki, the god of fire (and Hel's father).

Trying desperately to bring this back on topic

I did manage to decipher one of my Frodo-related notes from yesterday--and it's regarding the Osgiliath scene. What I noticed was a "little" thing, but IMHO that whole scene does pretty well in following Tolkien's take on the Ring's evil: that it's based on taking away free will. That's why what it does to Frodo is so hideous. In the Osgiliath scene, there's that tiny bit of Frodo that remains (and I noticed yesterday that the point of Sting actually presses into Sam's neck a little--indenting it without drawing blood), and the struggle between the two (that is, Frodo and the Ring) can be seen on Frodo's face. Another parallel between Frodo and Smeagol/Gollum?

Besides that, what I noticed is related to the sensory deprivation that's been discussed here. This is a bit tricky, because we're not actually in Frodo's point-of-view, but it seems that while Frodo's under the Ring's control he doesn't hear anything but that horrible wing-flapping of the Nazgul (that sound sends shivers down my spine). The next thing he actually seems to hear is Sting hitting the ground after he drops it. I'm not sure how much of that I get from the acoustics of the scene (seems Sting hitting the ground is emphasized more than it would naturally be--even echoey, perhaps?) and how much of it I get from the reactions, or lack of reactions, on Elijah's face.

Maeglian,
I'd edited my post before I saw your exhaustive comments :) [ Brunhild flaps the wings on her helmet in appreciation. ]

You wouldn't believe it but I've met Tolkien fans who are quite "ambivalent about" and even "supportive of" Melkor :eek: Perhaps that's part of trying too hard to understand the lure of the Ring :confused:

Edit: Maeglian has apparently removed her post so mine makes little sense now. I'll try to get on topic to compensate for the loss...

Just a couple of questions: How does the Ring seduce Frodo? Why does he grow to be so fond of it? (For comparison, the Ring of Norse sagas amplified the "evil traits" of its owner. Tolkien's Ring is seemingly doing the same using Boromir's pride, Galadriel's haughtiness, the enmity between dwarves and elves etc.) But what evil is there in the soul of Frodo Baggins?

Oh, well, yes, I'd posted this loooong piece of info on the death realms of Norse Mythology, and the death goddess Hel, and her rather unusual relatives, but really, Brunhild gave relevant info about Hel in her post, so I went and removed it..... it was about as OT as I've ever been. :o

In an attempt to be more On Topic, in a follow-up to tg's post:
Yes, I hope for both EJW's and Sean Astin's sakes that the sword they were using for that scene was really blunt, when you see this: (picture from Councilofelrond.com)

http://www.councilofelrond.com/mdules/My_eGallery/gallery/moviettt/16osgiliath/tttcap_1135.jpg


((((Sheryl)))) :)

Tg, I guess I did set myself up with that Weathertop comment. :o The theory isn't sophisticated at all, really, but I'll have to get back to it in another post.


OT for a moment: I guess it's entirely appropriate to equal Loki with Melkor, but Loki is; - well, more charming, unpredictable and a trickster, and he occasionally helps the Norse Gods out, so it's much more easy to be ambivalent about him than about Melkor, I think. Maybe it's just that it's too long since I read the Silmarillion...?

Rikka,
I am most intrigued by your point that movie Frodo enables Smeagol to reject Gollum for a time. Absolutely agree - and that makes the betrayal all the more tragic. It doesn't surprise me that Gollum wouldn't see Frodo as a fellow prisoner and so forgive him the betrayal - he'd figure he was free and Frodo helped Faramir trap him, and that was a betrayal no matter what drove Frodo to it. I see movie Frodo as warmer and less Edwardian than book Frodo, less reserved and less emotionally cautious, and I think movieFrodo's relationship with Gollum reflects that difference.

And I'd forgotten that Luthiea used my second favorite color - hot pink. I once decorated my bedroom in purple, hot pink, and kind of a lime green. It really didn't look as bad as it sounds... ;)

I wonder if we will see Sam snap at Gollum on the steps of Cirith Ungol. I don't expect it at all, but it would be lovely. Not Sam snapping, but the sight of Sam and Frodo sleeping, and Gollum watching them.

I love the pics of Frodo Maeglian and ainon posted. :)

originally posted by Brunhild
How does the Ring seduce Frodo? Why does he grow to be so fond of it? (For comparison, the Ring of Norse sagas amplified the "evil traits" of its owner. Tolkien's Ring is seemingly doing the same using Boromir's pride, Galadriel's haughtiness, the enmity between dwarves and elves etc.) But what evil is there in the soul of Frodo Baggins?

I dunno that Tolkien's ring amplifies the "evil traits" of people - remember how Gandalf says he would use it intending good? I think one of the horrifying aspects of the Ring is precisely its ability to twist good intentions to evil results. Or (remembering Sam's vision), maybe it's to reshape good intentions to its own ends. Something. :rolleyes: :D

I'm really wondering how (if!) PJ is going to handle Sam's vision, and also what Sam sees in Ring World...

Originally posted by Maeglian
OT for a moment: I guess it's entirely appropriate to equal Loki with Melkor, but Loki is; - well, more charming, unpredictable and a trickster, and he occasionally helps the Norse Gods out, so it's much more easy to be ambivalent about him than about Melkor, I think.

You know, when I first read LOTR, I saw the Rohirrim as bouncing off the Plains Indians - I did realize they were blonde, and that there were aspects that didn't fit the Plains Indians, but never connected that back to the Norse. :rolleyes: Okay, so I'm slow. But one of the few things the mythology of some of the Plains Tribes and the Norse mythology have in common are trickster gods; Loki, and Coyote. Never have been able to get a grasp of the concept, myself, and the Marvel comic version of Loki hasn't helped me much. :p Eventually eldest daughter and I should get to the Nordic myths in Bulfinch - maybe I'll get a clue from that...

No, wait, he does the French and Irish. Well, somewhere around here I've got a fairly valid retelling of Odin and Valhallah and whatnot... :p

I had more to say, but I've got three different computers in the room with me (and hubby's is the noisiest :mad: ), with commentary and exclamations by the kids playing the games, and I think I'm about to go mad. Hubby gave the kids some old trashed lap tops from work that they've gotten functional - I must think of some way to *ahem* repay him...

Sheryl

Off topic again, but take a look at this report from TORn (hope its okay if I post it here?)!

In the most recent issue of the LOTR Fan Club Official Movie Magazine (Issue #7, Feb-March, 2003), there is an interview with Daniel Reeve, a (the?) calligrapher for the movies.
When asked about how he went about creating Bilbo's journal, he talks a bit about training Ian Holm to do his "Concerning Hobbits" bit at the beginning of the FOTR extended DVD. He goes on to say,

"... I had to train Elijah to write with his quill, too, and do his little bit in the journal."

Oooh, wonderful!! :eek: :D :D Frodo writing in the "journal" just might redeem TTT, if PJ doesn't get Shelob's Lair right -- December seems sooo far away right now! :( Seems like it's been a long time since there were any new spoilery pictures/news of Frodo. Sigh.


Edit: This is also off-topic, though it reminds me very much of a certain someone's "beautiful crying." :rolleyes: I posted it before, but as it recieved no notice, I'm posting it again. (I will not be ignored! :rolleyes: :D)


"Never was sorrow more sweetly set forth, their faces seeming to beautify their sorrow ... The most iron eyes ... were drawn thereby into the society of their tears."

That was written by the first biographer of King Edward VI (sigh -- my historical hero! :)...), sometime in the late 1500s, I believe. It's describing the reaction of Edward and Elizabeth to the news of their father's death. No mention of nostril acting...but doesn't it sound familiar? :rolleyes: Another Froshadowing -- just centuries in advance! Maybe there were Haremites and Faculty members even in the 16th century...:eek:

Tathar, in the Cast Commentary version of the SE, I think Dom also mentions that Elijah had to learn calligraphy, and Elijah confirms that he studied it for a couple of weeks. Guess we'll just have to wait and see if Frodo's "firm, flowing script" beats out Bilbo's "thin, wandering hand!" (And now excuse me while I have a mini-swoon over both the idea of Elijah studiously practicing his calligraphy, and over actually getting to see Frodo finishing his portion of the Red Book!)

Shilohmm, an early draft of Frodo at Sammath Naur contained a rough outline of Frodo's vision when he puts on the Ring...it's similar to Sam's in that he sees himself as a leader of hobbits, going on to do all sorts of great deeds. Tolkien abandoned this, wisely I think, because it's so much more compelling for that to be left to our imagination, especially considering Frodo's eventual decline.

Interesting OT discussion. Maybe it needs it's own thread?

On topic.....Look at this....

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frolij.jpg

Hobmom, that is a WILD, WILD picture! You MUST pop that into the Harem, too.

Is it just me, or does he look astoundingly Elvish in that shot?? Spoooooooky!

JRRT "simplistic"??? The very existence of threads like this, and the rousing discussions and debates that have arisen in the decades since Tolkien's work was published suggest otherwise. (Although, admittedly, I've always found T's treatment of Sam rather simplistic, if consciously so. Sam is partly the product of the author's professed fondness for a bit of fluff, puns, doggerel, and the like, which irritated even his friends. The resulting Sam is an easily understood 'devoted servant' - accessible, evidently entertaining, but not interesting - and incapable of easing his master's profound suffering, IMO. The most obvious example of Sam's lack is his thoughtless shushing of Frodo when he, F, is trying to express the horror of his torture at the hands of the orcs. "You won't [forget] it if you talk about it...” says Sam, as usual trivializing even the direst events. Had hoped that movie Sam would be more subdued at least but, alas, SA's even more blabby!)
Phew! - sorry for the long paren. And I'm sure many disagree with me - which kinda reinforces my original point.

All the same - I too hope that blade's not sharp that EW's brandishing at SA's neck.

LOVE all the 'passionate' posts above.

Hobmom - That pic of Frolijah - TTTTHUD!!!

*sniff sniff* I used hot pink too, Sheryl. And you didn't even notice...:( ;) :p

I remember hearing or reading somewhere - and of course now I don't have the slightest clue where :o - PJ (or Fran?) explaining that they didn't want to use the same "device" to save Frodo every time he got in trouble. (can you tell it's late? Sorry for the complete lack of coherence.:o ) That is - if Frodo or Sam (or Arwen...) calls on Elbereth at Weathertop, at the Ford, and in Cirith Ungol, people could start thinking "Well, no problem! It's all right if Frodo gets in trouble - this Elbereth chick's always there to save him!" So, since Elbereth hasn't been mentioned so far in the movies, I'm still hoping that Sam will call on her in ROTK.:) Of course, he didn't hear the Elves singing at Rivendell that we know of, in the movie, and it makes even less sense that Sam would know who Elbereth is, and...well, I'm just going to stop there now, because I'm depressing myself.:rolleyes:

naiad - just want to assure you that yes, here's at least one person who disagrees with you, and proves that Tolkien is not simplistic, and that it takes all kinds to make a LOTR fanbase.;) I'm not going to launch into a (totally OT) full-blown Sam discussion here;) , but just want to say one thing:

Originally posted by naiad
and incapable of easing his master's profound suffering. The most obvious example of Sam's lack is his thoughtless shushing of Frodo when he, F, is trying to express the horror of his torture at the hands of the orcs. "You won't [forget] it if you talk about it...” says Sam, as usual trivializing even the direst events.

IMHO, Sam is not trivializing Frodo's suffering. Talking about what happened is not what Frodo needs to do at this point - what they need to do is get out of the Tower before they're caught.

The Tower of Cirith Ungol
Sam felt that he could sit like that in endless happiness; but it was not allowed. It was not enough for him to find his master, he had still to try and save him.

I'm sure Sam would have comforted Frodo then if he could - but there simply isn't time at that point - and who knows, maybe Sam's right - putting the whole thing out of his mind (for the time being) and instead concentrating on something else (i.e. eating and escaping) was the best thing for Frodo right then.:) At any rate, I don't think Sam is underestimating what Frodo went through, or blowing it off. I don't think Sam really believes that Frodo will forget about the "claws and eyes," even if he doesn't talk about them. But talking about it could just make it worse.

I have always believed that Sam was an enormous help in easing Frodo's suffering after the Quest - he was the only one who could even begin to understand what Frodo had gone through, and he loved Frodo enough to do everything he could to help him. In the end, of course, that wasn't enough, but IMHO, if anyone could have made it possible for Frodo to find peace in Middle-earth, it would be Sam.:)


Re: "simplistic," if I'm interpreting everything correctly, I think that what Brunhild (welcome!:) ) and tgshaw were saying is not that the characters are simplistic; just that Tolkien's works contain some simple, yet powerful truths. (i.e. "mercy is good" "arrogance is bad" etc.) And now I really must sleep, like two hours ago...:o

Just popping in quickly....

What Sam said to Frodo there is very typical of old-fashioned, stiff-upper lip thinking. Totally contrary to today's 'talk it out' psychology...which is the best way to go BTW.

But considering where they were and the urgency of the situation it WAS a good idea to delay any catharsis till later.

Hobmom! WOW! Thank you, that is an amazing pic! I'll just also add my geeky observation that the hairline on that wig looks pretty much perfect too, doesn't it? ;)

Maeg - smiley-savvy now, are we? :k That one's so cute! And write the Weathertop essay already!

That bit of news about the calligraphy is exciting, Tathar. :) Some of us were guessing and hoping too that there'd be ample post-Quest in the Shire material, based on the little bits and pieces of info that've been mentioned here and there.


Brunhild! Your posts now stand counted. Oh well. Guess you couldn't remain at zero for all eternity. :D Thanks for the link to that article - it's just so absolutely hilarious. Btw, this is the pic that comes with it:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1876952.jpg



Originally posted by tgshaw
As much as I miss Frodo's moments, I have to admit that was probably the right decision for the movie; otherwise it'd have to get into Bilbo's entire history, and then explain his passing along his knowledge to Frodo, and before too long it would have used a lot of screentime. So I can see why they might have decided not to have mortals--either Hobbits or Men--"in on" the Valar in the movie.

It's kind of standard convention in fantasies that when anyone relies on a 'greater power', that power or Force (;) to LEK) will eventually be the guiding light that leads to the successful completion of the quest, be it by providing gentle prods in the right direction, or by literally providing the person with strength and/or wisdom or even special abilities that he never had before. None of this ever happens to Frodo.

Aside from what Bridget said, I'm also guessing (and I know I could be far off here because of course we won't know till Shippey's book about the adaptation of book to movie comes out, and even then we don't know if they'd touch on it) that PJ & co have removed references/dependence on the Valar among Mortals so that the viewer isn't led into thinking that Frodo (or even Arargorn) might morph into some superbeing at some point or other, courtesy of the Valar, if he prays hard enough, or if he passed yet another test. Plus, like Bridget said, we don't want folks to think that that Elbereth chick's the real hero. :D

The beautiful thing about Tolkien's LOTR is that he had created something universal that everyone and anyone around the world can appreciate. By virtue of Frodo being a hobbit, he becomes a 'neutral' universal hero for everyone: there's no arguing if he was too white or too European or whatever. By virtue of Frodo doing all that he can to accomplish his quest, the reader, regardless of religion, can find echoes in the story that fits the reader's background. I'm not a Christian, but I can easily find parallels in LOTR that fit my prophet and my religion. And because Tolkien had said that his work was not an allegory, I'm free to do so. It's not easy to find a work that can be so universally understood by everyone worldwide. It's great that the movies seem to be trying achieve that same balance. :)


To drag this back on topic, I watched some cool EW stuff last night. 'Child in the Night' being one of them - not that I'd qualify that one as being cool, but EW was impressive and fortunately not at all irritating as kids that age often are. :p Also noticed that this is the movie that has the "Introducing Elijah Wood". tgshaw ... looks like you'd purchased a collector's item there! :)

Will talk about the other stuff later, but while I remember, I was finally able to load tg's 'First "Attack"?' page. Thanks, tg! Now that I see it snipped that way I truly appreciate what a small off-centre event it was! What it reminds me of actually is Frodo's condition after fighting off the Ringspell in Henneth Annun. Right down to the way that latter event also occupied the off-centre part of the screen. Wonder how the Full Screen version would look for these kinds of scenes.


Very much on-topic is this rather cute bit of news. Aww:

And competing against adult entries is a charming documentary from 12-year-old Scotty Barlow about her crush on actor Elijah Wood...... full article (http://www.kansas.com/mld/kansas/entertainment/5402200.htm)

ainon,
The "Frodo confronts Fröken Böck" pic is great :cool: And Frodo's journey is sometimes interpreted as the gradual psychological separation of a young boy from his mom ;)

Originally posted by shilohmm


I dunno that Tolkien's ring amplifies the "evil traits" of people - remember how Gandalf says he would use it intending good? I think one of the horrifying aspects of the Ring is precisely its ability to twist good intentions to evil results. Or (remembering Sam's vision), maybe it's to reshape good intentions to its own ends. Something. :rolleyes: :D



I put "evil traits" in double inverted commas; should have written "imperfections" or "deficiencies" instead. Let me elaborate anyway. The desire to do what you think is good to people who are not asking for it can be bad. The "my good intentions have been twisted by evil forces" spiel is the typical rationale of failed social reformers, isn't it? :rolleyes: Similarly, Sam's vision is a gross amplification of his feudalistic worldview :D

So I'm insisting on my question about the nature of Frodo's temptation. IMHO it's germane ;) to EW's effort and also one of the few profound things about LOTR. (OT: Bridget, I would love to share tgshaw's opinion ;) but we were not quite in agreement about simplism. Briefly, a "simple truth" is opposed by a simple lie whereas a "profound truth" is opposed by another profound truth. I was implying that Tolkien was mostly dealing with simple truths which did make LOTR good and easy to appreciate BUT ... )

On a lark, I'd compare Frodo to (a part of) the portrayal of St Thomas Becket in "The Murder in the Cathedral" by TS Eliot (a devout Christian and more or less Tolkien's contemporary). In that play, Becket is visited by four Tempters offering him various goodies. The ultimate temptation is his own desire for martyrdom.

Does that make any sense? :confused:

Edit: I've just realised that my comments on Gandalf are essentially the last lines of Letter 246. How weird - I'm not a fan, damn it! :D

Welcome, Brunhild, and I hope I can keep this OT since every time I de-lurk to mention Frodo I seem to get noticed by the mods:eek: -- That's one of the reasons I would love to see the CoE thread about Frodo revived, the one that Pearl started that someone here mentioned (just above) is now on the second page over there. It's worth a look, if you haven't checked already, and I'm *sure* there's more to say......

Anyway, to try to answer your question, Brunhild, I have always speculated, while reading LOTR, about what the Ring might have done to Frodo. Tolkien seems to give us so little about this. The bottom line, from Tolkien's words outside the novel, seems to be simply that it offered power, mastery over the wills of others. What people might do with that power that would twist their well-intentioned actions to suit the Ring's evil nature, we never really get to see, since for most of the story the Ring is safe with Frodo, as it was with Bilbo before him.

I can only imagine, then, that the Ring might have presented Frodo with unrelenting and persuasive images of the good he could do, bending the likes of Gandalf, Galadriel, Aragorn etc. to his own will. Perhaps it showed him a vision of Middle Earth green and at peace, a grander version of Sam's vision (which *is* described in the book as a vast garden). Perhaps it tempted him with a vision of himself in charge of it all, but we have to remember that the biggest reason Frodo made such a uniquely qualified Ringbearer was his very immunity to such appeals--his humility would have kept the Ring's temptation in check far longer than anyone else could withstand it. You are right in that there really *is* no evil in Frodo Baggins for the Ring to twist, and that is why it took the entire journey, and finally the lure of the Ring at its point of greatest power, to finally topple his resolve.

I have lately wondered whether the Ring might, toward the end, have offered Frodo the power to save the life of his beloved Sam by giving over the Quest--"Take me, let me help you save yourselves and make everything you see here as green and lovely as the Shire. Sam *need not* die!"

But as a friend pointed out to me, that is an emotional appeal, not the sort of the thing the Ring normally dealt in.

Er, getting back on topic, I do want to say that I am breathless with anticipation to see how Elijah Wood will bring PJ's realization of this internal struggle to the screen. Whew!

It's my bedtime, so I reckon I'll be missing out on a very interesing real time discussion here. :cool: Well, Flourish covered Tolkien (neat on-topic wrap-up there, btw :D), so I guess I can go the shallow route :p and base these assumptions purely on how EW played it:

MovieFrodo could be vain - when Frodo declares that the task (to destroy the Ring) was entrusted to *him*, which could easily mean that he knows that is the only one who is capable of doing the deed. Sure it's true, we know that, and I'm not suggesting that Frodo is purposely being vain about his lot as Ringbearer. But how does he rationalise his task to himself, and could the Ring take advantage of that sense of duty and warp it into vanity?

Frodo begins to covet the Ring for what it is, that thing of gold and beauty. He still doesn't seem to desire its power, nor does he wield it for influenc, but he's thinking it sure is beautiful ... :eek:



edit
I actually almost forgot why I came back here tonight. :rolleyes: It's too late and too slow for me to load this up to VillagePhotos, but take a look:

http://always.ejwsites.net/images/testfrodo02.jpg

The companion 'grimy' testFrodo to the one Hobmom posted. ;)

What a LOT of things to comment on!! I have to come back here later, cause I really don't have much time just now, and there are heaps I'd like to say.....

However, -

Hobmom: Thank you! WHAT a picture!! :cool:

(((Bridget))) :)

ainon, dear, you leave *such* a tempting teaser for a picture, and then the link won't display it?!? :eek:

------------

MovieFrodo and the Ring....

I am very impressed with the fact that the book never explains what, if anything, the Ring tempts Frodo with. It leaves the issue up to endless and personal interpretation. I sincerely hope the film will leave it just as ambiguous. (Just as I hope we'll get to see film Sam's vision of himself as a ruler over an enormous garden spelled out clearly. I think we will see this, they're laying the foundation in the last TTT scene, Samwise the Brave...... ). Anyway, while the Ring tempts others; Boromir, Faramir, Aragorn.... with the possibility to fight and win wars, to become mighty rulers etc, it's been pointed out earlier that this would not easily work on Frodo. Apart from his humility, strength of will, and goodness, there's also the fact that he has so clearly imprinted on his mind that the only thing that will save the Shire and ME is the destruction of the Ring, not the active use of it.

It's extremely interesting points though, that the Ring may be warping his sense of duty and obligation, turning it to vanity related to his uniqueness, and possibly also might even work on making him revel in his own "martyrdom" and self-sacrifice. I can't really see that this happens to him in the films, though, at least not yet. I think, historically, people who made a point out of self-humiliation, self-torment or some sort of self-sacrifice often did this so they could get the respect, attention and awe of others, even if it happened after their death, and even if their wish for such respect was completely subconscious. But Frodo has no audience to much of his self-sacrifice except Sam. And as for winning respect after death, he knows that if he dies this in all likelihood means Sauron gets the Ring, in which case there'll be noone around to remember him or respect him. So I think there may not be much for the Ring to work on in that respect?

The fact that "noone but him can find the way", and that "the task was appointed to him" is played out as a heavy burden, a grief and a torment, rather than a source for any pride or vanity, however twisted by the Ring. Even his snapping at Sam ("What do you know about it....The task is mine etc.) seems mainly to be tapping into wells of inner turmoil, pain, and self-denial, rather than "vanity" or pride. There's nothing more annoying and infuriating than somebody telling you a truth about yourself that you don't want to hear, and attack is a common self-defence, especially when balancing on the verge of mental collapse. Frodo's reacting out of self-denial about the painful truth, not hurt pride or warped vanity...... I think. (Just IMVHO, of course.)

So although it's a *very* intrigueing notion, and I'd *love* to hear others' opinions too, I do not think that is the route PJ and EJW is going with Frodo.


In the films so far, the way I see it, the Ring is *shown* to work along two lines. Which doesn't mean it isn't tempting him with promises or visions also, but that hasn't really been shown yet.....

One is to break Frodo down, mentally, physically, spiritually, - removing his free will and his self, so that he won't be able to resist the Ring's will and will stop resisting, give in, and reveal it to its true master. As in Osgiliath. So in a way, the Ring is tempting him: With the release of giving in, with the peace of letting go the task and the burden he's carrying.

The second is what Elijah has described in interviews as the Ring causing obsession or addiction; - ensuring that Frodo focuses energy, thoughts, emotions and desires on the Ring. Ensuring that despite the constant pain and torment it causes, it becomes impossible for him to give it up or "do it harm". As in that Ring petting scene.

Now exactly how the Ring does this, how it causes the obsession, is also a topic for much debate and consideration, of course. However, it's somewhat difficult to not notice that in several scenes where Frodo almost gives in to the Ring and stops resisting, and in the scene where he's caressing the Ring, there seems to be an obvious element of - ahem; - physical desire displayed in the acting.

And with that I have to rush off!!

Just dropping in while my boss isn't looking. I'm sure I don't have to tell anyone that I'm salivating over all the discussion of book-Frodo, book-Ring, etc., here, but I can't get into the discussion because if I do I'll never get back on topic :eek: ! I know some people here also read and post in Pearl's thread over at CoE. But I also know that--unless the sentence has been lifted--we've got a few Faculty members & occasional posters who aren't allowed into CoE (such subversives ;) :cool: ).

So I went ahead and pulled up the Concerning Hobbits (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=129561#post129561) thread in the Green Dragon (here at KD). I've linked to the last page, because it's a thread that's jumped from topic to topic--as long as it relates to one or more hobbits :) --and there really isn't any need to read the whole thread. (The last topic was the possibility of Elf/Hobbit matings--there's certainly no need to try to continue that one :p .) Just pull the discussion over from here if you want.

Since I just have a minute, I've just pulled the thread out of the void and haven't really said anything yet--but when I get time to reply to some of the things that have been posted today, I'll probably do it over there.

Well, I'm back to comment some more. :o


Tathar, thank you for the information about EJW having to learn calligraphy. I'm already imagining the scene in RotK..... I hope that one's in!!!

And yes, your quote about "beautiful crying" *does* remind me of someone. And a particular scene in FotR. :)


Sheryl; i just *have* to know - in what kind of Marvel Comic does Loki appear? Has Marvel translated and published the Danish Peter Madsen's Valhalla comics? Because that would be waaaay cool!! :cool:


Ainon, envious that you got to watch Child in the Night. That one and "Radio Flyer" I've given up on, - it's just too long since they were released, they're completely and utterly unavailable here. Well, I'd go for Radio Flyer first, if I had the chance to choose, I suppose.


Bridget, I agree with you about Sam. :k I certainly have become a warm admirer of Sean Astin's Sam. He's made me understand, love and respect his Sam very much. :) (Despite the speech :D ) Anyway, I think one of the fantastic things about Tolkien is how he partly writes or starts out according to convention (whether it's the stiff-upper-lip convention of his own times, like Sam's "don't think about it" comment in CU) or it's the mythological or fairytale convention, like the beautiful damsel, or Isolde, sitting properly and languidly at home waiting for the knight, or Tristram, to appear. And yet the plot development and the characters are so psycologically believable and complex and so *not* based on mere convention - whether it's Frodo's PTSD, which is so well described although it probably had no label back then (?), or Eowyn's caged fire and despair.


And just to answer "yes" to ainon's comment about smiley-savvyness: http://www.thorstenkaye.com/wavey.gif


EDIT: I just need to post this comparison! Hobmom and Tg, I've used your picture references, please tell me if you'd rather I didn't link to them.
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frolij.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/outtakes/cap2857-85.jpg

Originally posted by Maeglian
Ainon, envious that you got to watch Child in the Night. That one and "Radio Flyer" I've given up on, - it's just too long since they were released, they're completely and utterly unavailable here. Well, I'd go for Radio Flyer first, if I had the chance to choose, I suppose.
Oh, I'd totally suggest you do that (if you get the chance :( ). Child in the Night is an okay made-for-TV movie, but IMHO Radio Flyer is something special. I don't know if you have a way to find used videos on the internet that will play on your equipment--that's how I got both of those movies (as well as most of my other VHS versions of EW movies :) ).

Anyway, I think one of the fantastic things about Tolkien is how he partly writes or starts out according to convention... And yet the plot development and the characters are so psycologically believable and complex and so *not* based on mere convention - whether it's Frodo's PTSD, which is so well described although it probably had no label back then (?), or Eowyn's caged fire and despair.
Really interesting insight, Maeg :cool: ! Wonder if that's why some people see his writing as conventional or see LotR as a simple battle between good and evil.

--And it wasn't as clinically defined as PTSD, so there was quite a range of conditions covered by the name, but at the time of WWI I'd guess Frodo's situation might have fallen under the label of shell shock (especially as it worsened).

--------------

Since mine's still the last post, I'll try to add to the discussion of the movie-Ring (which I think is every bit as much a different character from the book-Ring as movie-Frodo is from book-Frodo). As far as Frodo's concerned, it seems the main thing the Ring wants to do is get him to put it on so it can be found. The movie, of course, plays that idea up to a high degree, with Sauron being able to see Frodo whenever he puts it on.

The only time Frodo really uses the Ring for anything is to escape from Boromir. Other than that--besides the "accident" at the Prancing Pony--it seems to be trying to force him to put it on more than "tempting" him in the usual meaning of the word. That is, it doesn't seem to be offering him anything in return.

More a physical force than a moral one?--Which would fit with the addiction idea that we've heard is the model for both Frodo and Gollum in their relationship to the Ring. IMHO, it's the addiction idea that makes sense out of the "It's mine! My own!" scene--that scene also, of course, has the obvious parallel with Gollum, which the movie also emphasizes a great deal (Sam's, "Don't you know who you sound like?"). The addiction idea could also make sense of Frodo's reaction to anyone trying to take the Ring, and to his "fondness" for it. [As far as the element of physical attraction to the Ring in the petting scene--(hmmm... how to say this?) when Galadriel is just coming out of nuclear mode--when she looks like herself again but is still gasping for breath--IMVHO it seems like she could just be "coming out of" another kind of intense encounter. Or do I just have a good imagination? :confused: ]

So, to this point, I don't think the Ring has tempted Frodo through any thoughts of what he could do with it--but the movies haven't really diverged from the book in that yet, since in the book that doesn't seem to happen until some time after CU (I say that mostly because there's no sign of it while we're in Frodo's POV, which ends at CU. After that, we don't know what internal battles he's fighting, except from what he tells Sam--which is probably only the tip of the iceberg.)

The Ring's basic temptation is to power--specifically power over others--which seems to be about as true in the movies as in the book. The way I've always understood it, is that hobbits have high resistance to the Ring because they normally aren't power hungry (with exceptions, of course, which become especially interesting when you remember who Bilbo's heir would have been if he hadn't adopted Frodo). But even hobbits aren't completely devoid of an attraction to power, so Frodo's not "immune" to it. Those two little words... "Not yet"... as he watches the Witch King lead his army out of Minas Morgul show that. But the Ring would probably like to find a bearer it could bend more easily through a stronger desire for power.

But the question, "What kind of evil is there in the heart of Frodo Baggins?" depends on what's meant by "evil." As Maeg said earlier, Tolkien's characters aren't psychologically simple--none are completely good (not even Frodo) and none are completely evil (not even Sauron, according to Tolkien). No one's perfect; everyone has some little chink in their armor, or one little corner of pride in their heart, that the Ring can play on. It's all a matter of degree. IMVHO, that's one of the things that makes Tolkien's secondary creation and its inhabitants so real.

All the Ring can really give anyone is power over other people--that's the way it does its work. Which is how I understand the concept of it only being able to work evil, even if the person using it has good intentions. The only way the Ring can work is by taking away someone's free will (whether that someone is one hobbit or all the "free peoples of Middle-earth"). And one thing Tolkien makes very clear in his letters is that trying to take away someone's free will is inherently evil--no matter how good your intentions are. Which is why anything done with the Ring is--by definition--evil.

Movie tie-in news. Very interesting news. Copying and pasting the whole thing, but the emphasis is mine. ;)

From TORn (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/6/1048016538)

ROTK: Action Figure Goodness! - Xoanon @ 14:42 PST
entertainmentearth.com has made a bunch of ROTK action figures available online for pre-order! There are no pictures available yet, but some of the names can give you chills to think about!

Series 1 - October 2003 - Witch King in Armor, Frodo in Orc Amor, Sam in Orc Armor, Eomer

Series 2 - October 2003 - Gollum Crawling, Aragorn with Anduril, Eowyn in Armor, Gandalf The White

Series 3 - October 2003 - Eowyn, Gollum with Smeagol Phrase, Prologue Bilbo, Treebeard (8 inch), Gollum with Precious Phrase.

Series 4 - October 2003 - King Aragorn, Pippin in Armor, Harad Archer, King Theoden in Armor, Legolas


I'm kinda giddy happy about 'Pippin in Armour' too. :cool:

Oh, and the link to Always & Forever won't work if you click on it. The site won't allow it. Sorry, forgot to mention that last night. :o The link must be copied and pasted into the Address bar of your browser. I'll try and load it up to my VillagePhoto later, if I have time.

That's an absolute adorable Froshadow, Maeg! :D

Drat, ainon, I was gonna post the info on the future action figures, and you beat me to it! :rolleyes: :D Oh well. :p

Wonder when they'll post pictures of the action figures on the site?? I'm almost half-afraid to see the Frodo-in-Orc-armor one, though... it'll make December seem so much farther away! :rolleyes:

Great Frolijah picture you posted the link to, btw! I have to confess, I think I like it better than the other one (nothing personal, you understand, Hobmom? ;) ). I still prefer his hair covering his forehead (Sigh! :rolleyes: ), but somehow, even though it's back, it looks better from that dead-on straight angle. IMVHO, of course. :o

tg, that's very interesting about the form of the Ring's temptation for Frodo. I've nothing to contribute, of course :o, but you have my admiration anyway. :rolleyes:

Thank you, Maeg, for noticing the "beautiful crying" quote -- at least it hasn't been completely ignored. ;) :D Your Froshadowing was adorable! :p And your theory on the Ring's form of temptation for Frodo was interesting, too.

As in Osgiliath. So in a way, the Ring is tempting him: With the release of giving in, with the peace of letting go the task and the burden he's carrying.

Sigh -- though I will refrain from passing final judgement on TTT until the SE DVD, I have to say that I still don't like that scene. IMHO, it shows the Ring's temptation working far too well, far too soon. (Sorry, but I just can't enjoy that beautifully acted angst of Frolijah's when it's so far from canon and incorrect...:( ) I think your theory is correct, though, Maeg -- probably the temptation of giving in and recieving peace at last (or so the Ring tells him, anyway) was the worst one when he was in Mordor after CU. He was exhausted, still dazed from Shelob's poison and the orc-drink, and no doubt in pain, too, and the thought of being at peace at last would have been the greatest temptation, I think. And yet he doggedly continued on to fufill his Quest. :eek: *shakes head in admiration* Yet another example of his incredible heroism -- as if we needed any more... :)

Hello All!
Been away for a week and I'm 5 pages behind! :eek:
I see that I missed Sheryl's birthday. Sorry Sheryl! :k
Happy Belated Birthday, Sheryl!!

Congratulations on the 300th post, Maeglian! :)


And Blossom is BACK! Woohoo! http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/woohoo.gif
:D
Sorry about your data loss though. :(
I'll put up the old gifs later or tomorrow just in case you still want them. :)
Hmm, reading about lost files had me thinking I'd better start backing up those tons of pics/videos I have on my computer. I don't know if I'm gonna survive a data loss like that. :eek:
By the way, didn't Sheryl suggest several pages back that we could put together a compilation disc of various video clips and interviews of EW? You know, kind of like a basic research kit that could be distributed to faculty members. Maybe we can make a list of what clips we could put in? Since I'll be organizing my video file folder this weekend and backing them up, I figure I could burn some for the faculty. So what do you think? Good, no good?



About Elijah learning calligraphy/Fro writing with quill, remember this picture?

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/frodo150.jpg

I hope this scene is in.

Gotta go now, still have some catch up to do. :o

Originally posted by Tathar
IMHO, it shows the Ring's temptation working far too well, far too soon.

Sure, although technically it's not too soon in movie canon, where the Ring is a far more potent counterpart to BookRing. But I love that entire sequence so much because it shows that even when the Ring is that powerful, it's still unable to destroy Frodo. :)


Deluby those gifs are just cute! :cool: Thanks for posting a big version of that study pic! :k Hope you're all right?

A day late, but here's that pic. I like this one more than the sideview too, basically because I always have a thing for grimy hero faces. :D

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1885155.jpg



Say, aside from Sheryl was no one else impressed by EvilFrodo? ;) Just comparing the make-up and EW's posture there, to Frodo of the Shire -- that incredible contrast. And I'm wondering what promo shots we'll be getting for RotK. Clearly all the cute shots are strictly a thing of the past now; those FotR pics were it.


A request btw, for anyone who subscribes to Starburst magazine. In this month's issue the mag is doing a feature on Gollum, and there're some very interesting EW quotes, including his take on the Dead Marshes 'Ring-petting' scene. It's one of his favourite scenes, and was one of the pick-ups done when they went back to NZ last year. Great stuff, but I can't afford to buy it.
:o


Meant to reply to other stuff that I should have replied to earlier, but storm's brewing so I'm getting off the phonelines.

Hobmom's sideview pic (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frolij.jpg) of Frolijah (reposted by Maeglian on this page) reminded me of someone else (http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/0670-mot/fosterjo.die) :rolleyes: :eek: ;)

How can someone that dirty look that cute :cool:

Originally posted by Brunhild
Hobmom's sideview pic (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frolij.jpg) of Frolijah (reposted by Maeglian on this page) reminded me of someone else (http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/0670-mot/fosterjo.die) :rolleyes: :eek: ;)

:trouts Brunhild: :D

EFF - good to see you again. And a very fine question, indeed. ;)

I can't believe that I logged off just now without replying to this:
deluby:
I figure I could burn some for the faculty. So what do you think? Good, no good?

YES! Very good! Jolly good! Good good good good good!

Please? :) {{{{{deluby}}}}}}

Harking back to the "Not yet... not yet" quote--I think there's an entirely different thing going on there than Frodo's possible temptation to power--here's the passage, which follows Frodo's attempt to cross the bridge where Sam and Gollum hold him back. It is actually *before* they witness the passage of the Nazgul King from the gate:

"'I must rest a while, Sam,' whispered Frodo. 'It's heavy on me, Sam lad, very heavy. I wonder how far I can carry it? Anyway I must rest before we venture on to that.' He pointed to the narrow way ahead.

"'Ssh! ssh!' hissed Gollum hurrying back to them. 'Ssh!' His fingers were on his lips and he shook his head urgently. Tugging at Frodo's sleeve, he pointed toward the path; but Frodo would not move.

"'Not yet,' he said, 'not yet.' Weariness and more than weariness oppressed him; it seemed as if a heavy spell was laid on his mind and body. 'I must rest,' he muttered."

A page or two later we do see a possible indication of one particular weakness on Frodo's part, the vanity (for lack of a better word) that Ainon referred to. Frodo despairs after seeing the Morgul host, he thinks of Faramir and his men, and he weeps. "I am too late. All is lost. I tarried on the way. All is lost. Even if my errand is performed, no one will ever know. There will be no one I can tell. It will be in vain."

(Here comes the on-topic part of this post: This moment is undoubtedly the inspiration for the line "I can't do this" in Osgiliath that Elijah Wood :p delivers to such great effect.)

To finish up the train of thought above, though, I don't think book Frodo's despair at this point is Ring-induced. It's all too realistic an assessment of his situation. The apparent vanity? Well..... I never interpreted it as vanity. As I read it, Frodo saw himself as a mere instrument of the Council's will--if they were all dead and gone, there would literally be no one to report back to. If a little vanity did creep in there, well, all the more human of him. Who wouldn't want to succeed if the whole world were depending on you?

I don't think that was Ring-induced either.

Flourish, I fully agree with the inspiration for the "I cannot do this" line.
PJ also said in some interview when launching TTT that Osgiliath was their version of the encounter with the wiki leaving Minas Morgul. Yet; - in the FotR SE DVD commentary he also says that Minas Morgul will be seen in RotK. I wonder how that will come about. There's even been speculation that Minas Morgul will stand in for Cirith Ungol in the film.


Tg; for what it's worth, I *don't* think you are imagining things concerning Galadriel post-nuclear phase.


ainon - thanks for the pic. Have to slightly disagree though, as I like the other one better. Not that I'm complaining about either one..... :o


Deluby, your compilation disc idea sounds GREAT!!! http://www.thorstenkaye.com/bowing.gif
And where will you be putting up those gifs? I regretted mightily not saving more of them than I previously did.........

....very interesting EW quotes, including his take on the Dead Marshes 'Ring-petting' scene. It's one of his favourite scenes.... !!!! :cool: Oh yes, pretty pleeeaaase, anyone, someone get hold of that quote? I'd do it myself, but Starburst isn't available here........ :(
Clearly all the cute shots are strictly a thing of the past now... Yeah.... I haven't *quite* gotten used to Evil!Frodo yet. He looks slouching and shortsighted and really obsessed and suspicious. I still like cute, tormented and angsty a tad better, I'm afraid.... Give me time. :D However, they released several such pics before TTT, and by and large such scenes didn't materialize, so I'm still not sure how much of this is promotion attitudes only, and how much we'll get to see in RotK. I do believe we'll see something like that in RotK, though, I don't doubt that.........
Frodo in Orc Amor !!?? Huh - *that *could lead to a whole new round of discussion about what really happened in Cirith Ungol with the orcs..... :eek: :D

(And with that rather pathetic parting shot, Maeg tiptoes rapidly out of the lounge.........)

Flourish, it's another "Not yet" that I was referring to (I probably should have been more specific :o , as I think Maeg and I were kind of bouncing off each other from an outside reference--from an essay I've got on my website. Sorry.) Here's the quote:

Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley... And as he [Frodo] waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring... He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king -- not yet.

--A little bit of vanity in the other quote? Probably--no one in Middle-earth is perfect. But he realizes it and brings himself out of it pretty well on that occasion. Tolkien does say that part of Frodo's difficulties after the quest come from pride--wounded pride at not having been able to complete the quest himself, rather than the humility to accept that he had been used as an instrument to get the Ring that far, but hadn't been given the "grace" necessary to finish the task because it wasn't needed.

P.S. Are those two large pics from Hobmom and ainon post-quest Frodo?

Originally posted by tgshaw
P.S. Are those two large pics from Hobmom and ainon post-quest Frodo?

Well, they look like pre-Quest Frodo. Or at least EW dressed and made-up as pre-Quest Frodo. When it comes to gazing I do prefer Hobmom's pic. Those eyelashes are to die for ... :o

As for EvilFrodo, all those pics are posed promo shots, in hindsight, clearly designed to pique audience interest rather than actually pertaining to anything in the movie. I expect promo for RotK will follow a similar exaggerated route. :p

Until more news is forthcoming I'm still speculating CU the tower is definitely in RotK. Minas Morgul is a different place altogether, established in the first movie as the home for all those fancy black-robed Nazgul chaps, so the continuity remains if RotK has the army host marching out. I think PJ's talking strictly about condensing and amplifying Frodo's experiences.

tg, I've been meaning to say this for days now -- thank you for your absolutely brilliant essay. :k The 'Not yet' chills me to the bone too, every time, but I admit some little part of me always wondered if Frodo could, if he really, really wished.

So tg, would you reckon PJ & co used 'Letter 246' as reference? ;)

And last but never least, our Elvellon sends her love. :) She's been busy with RL and with updates her website. :cool:

I've been intending to post for two days, still don't have the time I'd like but I'll neglect the kitchen long enough to hit a few things...

Tathar,
The first time you did that Edward quote, I was thinking it was Edward of Edward and Mrs. Simpson fame. :eek: :D So why is your Edward such a favorite?

Originally posted by Maeglian
Sheryl; i just *have* to know - in what kind of Marvel Comic does Loki appear? Has Marvel translated and published the Danish Peter Madsen's Valhalla comics? Because that would be waaaay cool!! :cool:

Sorry, not up on Peter Madsen, but I don't think Marvel has brought them over. :( Then again, I'm pretty out of it when it comes to current comics (where's Alexan when we need her?). I was thinking back to the Thor comics and some others where Loki guested. I suspect it depended on the author and artist (Odin's horse sometimes had four legs and sometimes eight, depending on how on top of it the artist was); sometimes the mythology was played straight and sometimes not, but Loki always seemed more straight bad-guy than trickster in the comics to me. Which always kind of bugged me, actually. :D

It's interesting - that picture that Hobmom posted (and Maeglian used in a Froshadowing) looks more like the guy in the book I always visualized than any other pic of EW's Frodo I've seen - even though I suspect it's EW there, rather than Frodo. The straigh-on shot ainon posted is pretty much just EW in a costume for me. Odd.

Originally posted by deluby

Maybe we can make a list of what clips we could put in? Since I'll be organizing my video file folder this weekend and backing them up, I figure I could burn some for the faculty. So what do you think? Good, no good?

Good, good, good! I'd sure love a disc with your gifs on it. I'm still willing to copy some of the stuff I've got if there's interest.

Originally posted by Maeglian

Huh - *that *could lead to a whole new round of discussion about what really happened in Cirith Ungol with the orcs.....

Hooo, boy. That's it, I'm gettin' the trout. ;)

Although actually the ladies on the fanfic thread could probably offer you all manner of evidence in favor of that theory... :eek: Scary stuff out there - and I thought the badfic was frightening enough!

Okay, my brain seems to be on hold tonight - which pics are "Evil Frodo" that apparently I like? I do like Feral Frodo, and angry kitten Frodo, can't remember appreciating an Evil Frodo though...

Much as I'd like to jump in on the Ring discussion and defend movie Frodo's actions in Osgiliath, the kitchen calls. My cat's going to hate me - she just got settled with her chin on my arm, the kids are upstairs so she's thinking life is good, and I'm off again. Oh, well. I'll slip her some of that aging chopped turkey in the fridge and she'll probably forgive me...

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
So why is your Edward such a favorite?

You know, I've been secretly hoping someone would ask... ;) Well, for one thing, Edward VI has always seemed very much like Frodo to me -- I couldn't go in all the reasons, but some of his decisions and personality traits (that is, whatever traits they didn't beat out of royal children :eek: ) seem similar. Another similarity: he's almost ALWAYS misunderstood and wrongly portrayed (sigh... sound familiar?). He's seen by most to be a sickly, spoiled, priggish little brat, and more than that, he's always in the shadow of his older sisters and father. (Even though he ruled longer than Mary, I believe.) But in actual fact, it seems that he was very sweet-natured -- though of course he was not permitted to display any emotion whatsoever in public, or even in his personal diary -- as well as intelligent and kind-hearted. He was not "priggish," either, and his enforcement of Protestantism was what he believed to be for the good of his people.

Well, that turned out to be a much longer explanation than I thought. :o If you would really like to know more about Edward, I would suggest you read "The Last Tudor King" by Hester Chapman, which I have found to be the best and most balanced biography of Edward. But I'm actually working on my own, too -- a retelling his life in story form, sort of half historical fiction, half biography :rolleyes: -- since I feel that just not enough people know his true character. :D Not that that helps you any, but...

I'm sure you didn't really want all that information, but you did ask... :o :rolleyes: :D

Originally posted by Maeglian

Huh - *that *could lead to a whole new round of discussion about what really happened in Cirith Ungol with the orcs.....

:eek: I think I'll join Sheryl in getting that trout out! :eek: :p

Tathar, your book sounds fascinating. I love good historical fiction and especially about that time period. That young Edward bears similarities to Frodo makes him even more interesting.

I've started going on my screenplay idea for Elijah. Look I can dream can't I?

I was wondering what types of roles you'd all like to see him act in. It seems he's been doing mostly comedies of late...though Sunshine has it's dramatic side to it as does Try Seventeen.

I'd really love to see him take on a good complex angstey adult role. I wonder if Spielberg has asked him to be in anything of his. But there are so many great young directors out there doing good films and it seems Elijah wants to work with them. I hope they know what a riviting performer they have in him.

tg, thanks for clarifying.:) The other "not yet" is most interesting....

I think, though, that Frodo was given grace, and he was given it because it was necessary--it was Gollum.

Or did I misunderstand your post again? Sorry if so!:eek:

Originally posted by ainon
tg, I've been meaning to say this for days now -- thank you for your absolutely brilliant essay. :k The 'Not yet' chills me to the bone too, every time, but I admit some little part of me always wondered if Frodo could, if he really, really wished.

That "not yet" always kind of slaps me in the face, too...it just seems like such an ODD thing for Tolkien to say. Does he say it because that is what Frodo is thinking? Because somewhere in the depths of his Ring-addled mind, the delusion is growing that he might actually come out of this a victor? That is worth a healthy shudder.

Here's what Tolkien had to say about the possiblity of a Frodo-Sauron standoff (yep, it's Letter 246 again):

"In any case a confrontation of Frodo and Sauron would soon have taken place, if the Ring was intact. Its result was inevitable. Frodo would have been utterly overthrown: crushed to dust, or perserved in torment as a gibbering slave. Sauron would not have feared the Ring! It was his own and under his will."

Utterly overthrown! GIBBERING SLAVE!?!?! :(

Originally quoted by tg:

'Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley... And as he (Frodo) waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command to put on the Ring... he knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king... not yet.'

Interesting to know, Maeglian, that you remember PJ saying the film Frodo/Nazgul scene in Osgiliath represents book Frodo v the Wiki at Minas Morgul. The above quote reveals book Frodo in a strong frame of mind - still strong enough at this stage to recognize his danger and resist the 'pull' of the Ring. In total contrast film Frodo is wholly 'possessed' by the Ring from the moment he 'senses' the Nazgul's presence. From EW's chilling delivery of, 'They're here. They've come.' - he simply ceases to be Frodo - he becomes almost an empty shell, a 'host' for the Ring's will to inhabit and command, a 'vehicle' to be coerced into returning the Ring to its Master. Although some think the whole Osgiliath/Nazgul scenario portrays film-Frodo as 'too weak, too soon,' is it not a good example of film-Frodo's strength of character that he was able to summon some inner resistance at the very end, when he was on the verge of killing his friend? Sam's pleading, 'Don't you know your Sam?' (sob!) reached past the Ring's power and brought Frodo back to himself; when it came to the test Frodo's love/affection for Sam was greater than the Ring's influence.

That's how I see it, anyway. Film-Frodo IS very different from book-Frodo, but I DO think he has the same strengths and weaknesses - PJ is just portraying them in a different way. As someone said a couple of pages ago while quoting a wonderful post - from C0fE I think (sorry, can't remember who it was) - Frodo's courage and heroism lies in bearing this terrible burden day after day, despite suffering constant mental and physical torment. Every step he takes is in itself an act of courage - I think this can be said for both book and film-Frodo - and in that I am in total agreement.

Of course, it leads one to wonder just how far gone Frodo will be in ROTK. Elda - Frodo as a 'Gibbering slave' OMG!

deluby - good to see you. Thanks for noticing I was back - LOL at your lovely smileys.

Thanks to everyone for the pics, links etc. I don't say much worth listening to, but I do pay attention to all your thoughts and theories. I love it here. The Faculty is:cool:

Must run. Bye.

I meant this EvilFrodo. This better-qaulity pic makes him look significantly less evil though. :p

courtesy of http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/return01/return003.jpg



Originally posted by BLOSSOM
Although some think the whole Osgiliath/Nazgul scenario portrays film-Frodo as 'too weak, too soon,' is it not a good example of film-Frodo's strength of character that he was able to summon some inner resistance at the very end, when he was on the verge of killing his friend? Sam's pleading, 'Don't you know your Sam?' (sob!) reached past the Ring's power and brought Frodo back to himself; when it came to the test Frodo's love/affection for Sam was greater than the Ring's influence.

That's how I see it, anyway. Film-Frodo IS very different from book-Frodo, but I DO think he has the same strengths and weaknesses - PJ is just portraying them in a different way.

That's how I see it too, Blossom, and I couldn't have said it any better. :) I'm sure what truly saved Sam's life was Frodo's incredible inner strength. Frodo should have slain Sam immediately; he could have simply cut Sam's throat before Sam had time to say a word, but he did not. The Evil of the Ring couldn't touch Frodo, couldn't warp him into doing something he would never wish to do. That is nothing short of amazing. :)

I can't wait for the SE DVD, so that we get the commentaries that'll explain how EW pulled off that scene. :cool:


On the subject of post-Quest, this bit of news from TORn hasn't been posted here yet:
In the most recent issue of the LOTR Fan Club Official Movie Magazine (Issue #7, Feb-March, 2003), there is an interview with Peter Jackson. In it he is asked from Steve Stone of Markham, Illinois:

By now we all know that the "Scouring of the Shire" won't be in the films due to the fact that there can't be a second, lesser climax in the story after the larger events that take place. But please tell us if you are going to use the "Sailing away from Middle-Earth" ending, which would age the characters a year or two from their final battles in the films and provide a more fitting farewell to such well-loved characters?

The answer is "yes."


I'm not sure if this banner will show up here. I'm not sure if I like it or not, but good work went into creating it, that I'm sure and the site is a good one too.

http://www.warofthering.net/ahobbitstale/hobbitstale_banner.jpg


And these are rather nice too. Wallpapers:

1. map (http://www.lotr.com/images/LOTR_01_800X600.jpg)

2. Bag End (http://www.lotr.com/images/LOTR_02_800X600.jpg)

3. cozy interior (http://www.lotr.com/images/LOTR_03_800X600.jpg) ;)

Anyone for weird giggles at EJW's expense? :p You may click here (http://www.ricmachin.com/ElijahWood.html) (and view the original well-known pic here (http://www.tolkienonline.com/gallery/archive/elijah010910a.jpg_thumb.jpg)).

Blossom,
Where is your Signature line from?

Brunhild,
Thanks for the laugh.

Film-Frodo IS very different from book-Frodo, but I DO think he has the same strengths and weaknesses - PJ is just portraying them in a different way.For those of you who don't know I have only made it through book three (the first half of TTT) I know a little about the rest from watching the cartoon version with my children, and talking here.

Blossom I agree that Book-Frodo (BF) is very different from Film-Frodo (FF). For the most part I like BF better. However there are places that I like FF a lot more. For instance in the movie FOTR when Frodo gets stabed by the Nazgul at Wether Top, he is rendered useless by the poison. He has to be carried for days till Arwen comes to take him to her father. In the book he rides the horse and while a bit dazed he is still able to stay on top of the horse. He sits at the trolls and listens to Sam's stories. It just seems to me that BF isn't affected enough by the poison for it to be dangerous much less life threatning.

As for MF being affected by the ring... One night at dinner (I'm lucky I still sit with my whole family and talk during meal times) my daughter Heather (7) and my Son Hawken (10) and I had this conversation...

Heather: "Mommy who is your favorite LOTR Person?"
Me: "Sam"
Heather: "Why would you pick him, he isn't as cute as Legolas and he isn't as brave as Frodo"
Hawken: "Yea he's just a 'Stupid Fat Hobbit'"
Me: "Actualy I prefer Sam because I think he is braver than Frodo"
H & H: "Are you nuts?!?!"
Me: "No! Frodo is a chicken. Every time he gets scared he throws on the ring and runs"
Hawken: "I don't think your right Mom, Frodo is forced to put on the ring. The ring makes him do it, that is why it takes so long for him to put it on. He is fighting the ring, and it's powers, The only time he puts it on because he wants to is to get away from Boromir."

Well stick a foot in my mouth!!! I couldn't believe that my 10 year old is better at figuring out litature (and film) than I am.

However I still fell that Sam is the braver one, he is the Hero of the story for me. When Frodo gives up at the end, turns his back on his task, and puts on the ring and hids in Mt. Doom, Sam never gives up. Sam does not turn his back on his task "Don't you loose him Samwise Gamgee" (I don't remember if that was in the book or not) He stays and searches for his invisable master till the end.

Any way that is my thoughts on Frodo and Sam (My son's thoughts too)

Originally posted by Blossom

Although some think the whole Osgiliath/Nazgul scenario portrays film-Frodo as 'too weak, too soon,' is it not a good example of film-Frodo's strength of character that he was able to summon some inner resistance at the very end, when he was on the verge of killing his friend? Sam's pleading, 'Don't you know your Sam?' (sob!) reached past the Ring's power and brought Frodo back to himself; when it came to the test Frodo's love/affection for Sam was greater than the Ring's influence.

Well, now I feel the obligation to disagree again -- sorry. Yes, he did have enough strength to resist killing Sam even under the Ring's influence, but he should never have gone so far in the first place!! I seriously doubt Book-Frodo would have fallen so deeply under the Ring's power that soon -- and I still say that I still hate (yes, I'm sorry, but that's the truth!) that scene still, as I think it horribly distorts Frodo's character and strength of will. :mad: As I've said, though, I won't pass final judgement on TTT until the SE DVD is out. There's a slight chance PJ might be able to fix the terrible mistake he made.

Originally posted by Elf-Friend Frodo
However I still fell that Sam is the braver one, he is the Hero of the story for me. When Frodo gives up at the end, turns his back on his task, and puts on the ring and hids in Mt. Doom, Sam never gives up. Sam does not turn his back on his task "Don't you loose him Samwise Gamgee" (I don't remember if that was in the book or not) He stays and searches for his invisable master till the end.

First of all, bravo for your son!!! :D

Sigh. I hate disagreeing, but I have no choice but to defend Frodo's honor as the Hero of LotR. For one thing, Frodo does NOT give up, nor does he turns his back on the task in Mt. Doom -- as Letter 246 says: "At the last moment the pressure of the Ring would reach its maximum -- impossible, I should have said, for any one to resist, certainly after long possession, months of increasing torment, and when starved and exhausted. Frodo had done what he could and spent himself completely (as an instrument of Providence)...."

THAT, to me, is what makes Frodo the Hero -- despite his pain, grief, and exhaustion, he still carries on, doggedly, without hope even. Sam did not have to bear the Ring all through Mordor -- and, no offense meant, but I don't believe he could have gotten as far as Frodo did, were he the Ring-bearer -- and the reason he always seems so strong and brave is because of that. He does not have the increasing weight of the Ring pressing on his mind and body, so he is allowed to take care of the practical things and remain hopeful. Yes, Frodo couldn't have made it after CU without Sam, but had he been without Sam from Amon Hen, I think he would have made it past Shelob's Lair without being stung and captured (since his relationship with Gollum would have been better).

Those arguments are for Book-Frodo, of course. As for Movie-Frodo, I hold with my belief that though he is still undeniably the Hero, PJ has sorely underplayed his courage and strength. Thus he makes it seem like Sam is the real hero, because every time the Ring calls him, Frodo cannot resist the urge to put it on unless Sam stops him -- which is completely untrue to the book, at least at that point. So I have not much to say in Movie-Frodo's defense, since he is so wrongly portrayed in TTT, and it's difficult to convince people of his heroism when I myself am constantly frustrated by his lack of will. :( Sigh.

Apologies to all Sam lovers out there, but though I do like Sam, he can never replace Frodo as the Hero of Lord of the Rings in my mind.

Sorry for all my rantings lately -- it just seems like subjects keep coming up that I'm very passionate about! :rolleyes: Defending Frodo's honor is definately one of them. :D

On a lighter subject, I love that banner, ainon! That picture of Frodo, though it is from the scene I despise most out of TTT, is definately one of my favorites. They really did a good job with the banner! :)

Originally posted by Elf-Friend Frodo
...For those of you who don't know I have only made it through book three (the first half of TTT) I know a little about the rest from watching the cartoon version with my children, and talking here.
E-FF, let me make sure I'm understanding this--we may have to start labeling book spoilers around here :eek: . The main clarification I'm looking for is which cartoon version you've seen: Bakshi's, which goes to the point in the story where PJ's TTT ends, or the Return of the King? If it's the latter, we can figure you know most of the story, but if it's Bakshi's we'd best be a bit more careful (unless you really don't care about spoilers--but, boy, there's some stuff ahead that I'd hate to have spoiled for you).

For one thing, your question to Blossom about where her sig is from makes perfect sense if you don't know the story past the point where Bakshi & PJ have taken it (before I saw your "for those who don't know" note, I was wondering why someone would ask that question, as just about anyone who's read the book would place it immediately)-----but her answer could be a [i]huge spoiler if you don't know about the scene. It is a direct book-quote, if that's what you're wondering.

OTOH, maybe I'm concerned over nothing. Maybe you don't mind spoilers at all and we can just keep gabbing away ;) .

But--please :) --could you let us know what you've seen and how you feel about book spoilers?

[Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that by the time you read all the way to the end of RotK you'll know that Frodo's the real hero. :) :p ]

...It just seems to me that BF isn't affected enough by the poison for it to be dangerous much less life threatning.
I'm not going to worry about any spoilers in responding to this, since you're already reading TTT.

There isn't any poison in the book. The danger from the blade is that the point broke off inside the wound and is working its way inward toward Frodo's heart. If it reaches his heart, he'll become a wraith, so the race against time is to find and remove the tiny splinter of the blade before it can complete its work (it's already beginning to affect him, obviously). According to what Gandalf says, it would have overcome a "mighty warrior of Men" sooner than it did Frodo. I've assumed that the reason PJ changes it to poison is that it's a lot easier to get across to the audience, and it does incapacitate Frodo immediately so Arwen can do her stuff.

Kind of ironic that you'd pick that example, as most people who are unhappy about the differences between book-Frodo and movie-Frodo feel he's overcome too quickly in the movie and regret that he doesn't have the chance to ride the horse himself or face the Nazgul at the ford.

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Well, I am officially insane. I've just ordered Internal Affairs--yes, really :rolleyes: --on DVD. Yes, for a few seconds of little Elwood and his single 4 or 5 word line. What can I say? It's more fun than collecting Beanie Babies or miniature tea sets :p . I've also ordered my DVD of Avalon (in my original DVD "buying plan," I was going to get The War next, but after seeing some of Elijah's patented acting techniques already up and running in Huck Finn, I wanted to be able to study his first role with a really good director--better than I can with just the VHS). I've also done the deal with yesasia.com for Chain of Fools and am keeping my fingers crossed that it'll work on my computer. That's all I'll be buying for awhile (unless I run across a really good price for something).

I know there was probably a lot more I meant to reply to--hopefully will be back later :) .

From Hobmom
I was wondering what types of roles you'd all like to see him act in. (snip) I'd really love to see him take on a good complex angstey adult role. I agree with you, Hobmom. A complex angsty role, in a preferrably contemporary drama setting, where he can really shine in playing out emotional conflicts and make tough decisions. Also, I'd like to see Elijah try out a "seriously bad guy" role - scheming, manipulating, that kind of thing...... I think he'd excel at that. But comedy works fine, too. And romance...... :)


Well, what is there to say about Osgiliath? It seems either you really like Frodo's portrayal there, or you don't. Personally I've almost done the big 180 degree turn :rolleyes: , so although I initially was of the "too weak, too soon" opinion, I am now *definitely* among those who greatly admire and appreciate the scene and the scenario as far as relates to Frodo's part in it. So I fully agree with Blossom and ainon.......
Elijah's acting is astounding, outstanding, unbelievable - but then I never had *any* difficulty with that.
For the rest, I accept that the FilmRing is significantly stronger and more active, FilmFrodo is younger and less mature, and PJ is out to give us a gruellingly realistic and very painful picture of the deterioration and near-destruction of this beautiful soul and mind and will. Hence, instead of Frodo running towards Minas Morgul, head lolling, and having to be stopped by Sam, we get him in a Ring Trance, having to be tackled by Sam. And instead of his will stirring and moving his hand away from the Ring and towards the Phial as he watches the Wiki, we get his will stirring enough to defeat the Ring's will and save Sam. And he is in despair, yet decides to go on, in both book and film. I could go on about this. :rolleyes: However, I've written more about my take on this over at CoE in the Frodo thread, so anyone really interested can read it there. :) Also, we know there were probably "studio" reasons for some elements in that scene - I've written about that, too. ;)


EFF, have you seen the famous RotK spoiler pic of Frodo and Sam together? If so, I'd think its fairly safe to assume that Blossom's sig is from that scene.
I should warn you though, that posting here may spoil you for the part of LotR you haven't read yet..... However since you evidently know part of what happens at Mt. Doom, I guess you are quite spoiled already? :D

ainon, thanks for the better quality pic. What strikes me the most is the distinct Aragorn-like quality of the hair. The poor dear's been living rough......


From Elda
Does he say it because that is what Frodo is thinking? Because somewhere in the depths of his Ring-addled mind, the delusion is growing that he might actually come out of this a victor?
That's the way I have read this; - he thinks he could in time become strong enough to wield the Ring that way. And in addition to the whisperings of the Ring, it was Galadriel of all people who contributed to make him think so, I believe; - in explaining how he'd have to become stronger and train his will to the domination of others before he could use the Ring's power (even if that was to see and understand the mind of other Ring bearers).

Utterly overthrown! GIBBERING SLAVE!?!?!
(Maeg envisages Elijah acting that scenario out in full angsty and tortured mode......... Realizes she *really* needs to be elsewhere, and quickly too, and manages to just get herself out of the Lounge entrance before she goes resoundingly http://www.thorstenkaye.com/thud.gif )


Edit: Tg, I obviously double-posted with you. I hope you know what you're getting yourself into with Internal Affairs? That's actually one film where I am quite happy that EJW's role is so tiny - means I'll never have to watch the whole film again.

A few assorted replies to things on the last couple of pages--

Flourish, I think Tolkien and myself would agree with what you said about Gollum being the "grace" that finally destroys the Ring, at least in parallel--I don't think I'd quite use that label for him. Rather, his action means Frodo doesn't need to be given the extra grace he would have needed to actually destroy the Ring (which, Tolkien implies, Frodo would have been given if it had been necessary).

The problem is that Frodo doesn't see it that way, and in his wounded pride he wanted to complete the task himself (not a very difficult emotion to imagine, under the circumstances--to suffer so much and to come so close...). Tolkien makes it very clear that this isn't the only reason for Frodo's post-quest suffering--in fact, it plays a minor part--but it is there. He hasn't quite reached the state of perfect humility that would accept being used as an instrument so far and no farther--that would accept the success of the quest without blaming himself for his personal "failure." (This is all from Tolkien's Letters. IMHO, it's not all that obvious in LotR itself.)

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Maeg--I think I know pretty much what I'm "getting into" with Internal Affairs ;) . The reviews I read of it were actually positive, but in order to like it you have to like that kind of movie--which I don't a whole lot. But that's not why I'm buying it, of course. I've never collected anything in my life (tried stamps for a little while when I was a kid, but just couldn't get excited about them), but a collection of EW movies seems to at least have a purpose--even if I don't personally particularly like some of them. Don't know if that makes any sense, but, then, I don't think collecting Beanie Babies makes sense, either :rolleyes: , and I know people who've spent hundreds of dollars on them. Just my own little irrational quirk, I guess. :o

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From Elda:
Does he say it because that is what Frodo is thinking? Because somewhere in the depths of his Ring-addled mind, the delusion is growing that he might actually come out of this a victor?
That's how I've read it, too (with the emphasis on "Ring-addled"). I think of it as a very early stage in the process that ends with his declaration at the Cracks of Doom. We know that Frodo struggles all the way through Mordor not to put on the Ring (because we see his hand creeping towards it and then moving away), but since we're not in his POV we don't know what kinds of thoughts he's having to deal with in his "Ring-addled mind."

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I'm really torn about what to say about the Osgiliath scene. On the one hand, I totally sympathize with Tathar (although my main regret was, is, and shall be the loss of Frodo at the ford). OTOH, I'm starting to understand better what's actually going on in the Osgiliath scene--as I did earlier with Weathertop (both needing a lot of explanation from others :o )--and how it doesn't contradict what the book says about Frodo at that point although it says it very differently. We also have to keep in mind that the Osgiliath scene would take place just hours before CU; sometimes I think we lose that perspective because of Book III jumping in there. I do think there's evidence of book-Frodo's weakness that we tend to overlook or not see the full import of. It's really more from that direction that I come to my thought that "the two Frodo's" aren't that different in their levels of courage, stamina, etc.--rather than from the direction of thinking movie-Frodo is stronger than some people think he is. I don't know if that makes sense, either :confused: .

I couldn't resist posting the following quotes from Peter Jackson himself. One should have in mind, however, that true professionals (artists, surgeons, or NASA engineers) do not usually provide laymen with any significant information unless there's a disaster to explain :D.

Lord of the Rings director Peter Jackson told Cinescape Online that the upcoming sequels, The Two Towers and The Return of the King, will take the story into darker territory. "What basically happens is [the films] become darker, and they emotionally go places, which is very interesting," Jackson told the site.

Jackson added, "As Frodo's [Elijah Wood] journey with the ring continues, the ring starts to affect him more. There's an interesting dynamic that is going to happen in these films. Where in the first movie, Frodo is the audience. He's the Everyman character. In the second film, The Two Towers, the ring starts to act on him in a much stronger way. By the third film, Frodo has such a burden to carry and is starting to behave in such a strange way that I think the empathy of the audience will switch to Sam [Sean Astin], who is accompanying Frodo on this journey.

"Frodo becomes so troubled by this ring that we are now going to be looking at this story through Sam's eyes by the time The Return of the King comes out [in 2003], because we can no longer really go there with Frodo, because he has his own torturous journey that he takes on. It will be very interesting to see the three films together, because there's going to be this switch as each film becomes more intense."

Originally posted by tgshaw
[B]E-FF, let me make sure I'm understanding this--we may have to start labeling book spoilers around here :eek: . The main clarification I'm looking for is which cartoon version you've seenMy kids have all three DVD's so I know the ending of the movie. My kids walk around all the time singing "Frodo of the nine fingers". I didn't know who "she" was untill it sliped in CoE. Of course you know that alot was left out of that movie so I feel I still have a lot of surpries ahead.
For one thing, your question to Blossom about where her sig is from It is a direct book-quote, if that's what you're wondering.
That was what I was wondering, but also a question was asked in CoE, about the scene where Frodo is "ring sick" and Sam is talking to him, you see Sam's face but you can't hear him. I was wondering if she read lips and figured out that he was saying that there cause it would fit.
Meg, Yes I agree with you it will also fit where you mentioned (That is if you are talking about the calender picture.)
But--please :) --could you let us know what you've seen and how you feel about book spoilers? This is how I feel, if I don't want to be "spoiled" then I shoudn't come here. I skip parts that I feel are revealing things I don't want to know, and just enjoy reading everyones oppinions about things. SO don't worry about me, just keep on typing.
[Also, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that by the time you read all the way to the end of RotK you'll know that Frodo's the real hero. :) :p ] This will be at least a year from now. I am going to stop in book four where the movie stoped. Then go to The Hobbitt and then Silmarillon. Then after ROTK comes out I will finish TTT & ROTK. And seenig that I am partial to Sean, it may be a hard switch. (Don't get me wrong I have "fallen" for Lij too since LOTR, but no one will ever replace Sean in my heart.

Originally posted by Elf-Friend Frodo
This will be at least a year from now. I am going to stop in book four where the movie stoped. Then go to The Hobbitt and then Silmarillon. Then after ROTK comes out I will finish TTT & ROTK. And seenig that I am partial to Sean, it may be a hard switch. (Don't get me wrong I have "fallen" for Lij too since LOTR, but no one will ever replace Sean in my heart.
You do seem pretty well informed, since you know you shouldn't even finish TTT if you don't want to get ahead of the RotK movie :) .

And, while this is a thread about Elwood, and I think he's potentially the best actor in the history of film, I wasn't talking about him (or Sean) ;) . I guess I didn't specify that I was talking about when you finish reading RotK. (I default to book-Frodo even without thinking about it--guess I've just known him so much longer :) ).

Elf-friend Frodo, just a word of friendly caution for you:) -- I remember from a brief set of posts we exchanged at CoE that you had been given a very strange of idea of the end of the story, something to do with Frodo hiding in Mordor with the Ring for several weeks while Sam ran around looking for him???:eek:

I gave a very cautious answer to your question about it in the other thread, but since you don't mind spoilers as much as I thought, and since you don't plan to finish reading the books for a while, I just *have* to say to you that that ending is TOTALLY AND COMPLETELY WRONG.

It's not what's in the book, and I will bet my last dollar it's nothing like what will be in the film--no matter HOW the film may diverge from the book, it's NOT going to go down that completely idiotic road. It is totally illogical, it could never happen given what we're told about Frodo, Sam, OR the Ring, and it does a great disservice to the themes of the original and its very fitting and appropriate resolution.

So any assumptions you may be tempted to make about the heroism of any of the characters will be skewed by this completely screwed-up cartoon film, whichever one it is. (And it should be burned!)

Sorry to get heated!:D I just thought I read between the lines there that you were still working with that really bizarre idea as a base.

Regarding that scenario Flourish mentioned: :eek: :eek: !!! It's been 8 or 9 years since I've seen that animated RotK movie, but I think I'd remember something like that! Yoicks! E-FF, is that possibly your 7-year-old's explanation of it?? (That is the movie "Frodo of the Nine Fingers" is from. -- If anyone remembers Tim Benzadrine's sig at CoE with "I hate Glen Yarborough" in it, well, guess who provided the music for that movie :rolleyes: ? And while I try not to hate anyone per se, I'll agree about the music.)

Brunhild--That PJ interview has been around quite some time, and was pretty well dissected, discussed and digested when it first came out, so if you don't get as much reaction to it as you thought you would, well, that's why... But we've got a lot of new people posting since then, so maybe they'll want to jump in :) .

[I think it's interesting that what PJ's talking about is pretty much what Tolkien does with the POV in the book.]

Hello! Im sorry to burst in here (I *do*) post on KD...its just that Pippin was my 'first...ahem...interest....'...but Pippin can't be himself without Frodo...so please know I love Frodo as much...well...*almost* as much...

well, I am also here to implicate someone y'all DO know....yes, enaiowen, you cannot escape...

She and I have been friends since...oh dear...well I wont go there...but both of us would be so pleased if y'all woudl go check out OUR version of LOTR...actually, it was HER idea...I swear! (go to the history portion in the Gate...)

okay enough of that...

here it is:

Home Sweet Barad-dur : A Day in the Life of the Dark Lordess (http://www.geocities.com/homesweetbaraddur/index.html)

We hope you enjoy it...adn please drop us a note in the guestbook...

I just got a look at the funny Elwood 'portrait' Brunhild posted above and it deserves to be seen simply for the fact that it illustrates that most people do NOT think he has a backsloping forehead. ( Erendis...) ;) BTW Where is she?

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/EWportraitLOL.jpg

:eek: Rankin-Bass has Frodo putting on the Ring and *hiding* for weeks? :eek: Whatever for? Well, I've seen caps from RB and heard the infamous whip song, but I think that twist I didn't know about. In that case, no, definitely do not use RB as guide to what will happen in PJ's Mt Doom scene!

From the interview posted by Brunhild:
Frodo becomes so troubled by this ring that we are now going to be looking at this story through Sam's eyes by the time The Return of the King comes out [in 2003], because we can no longer really go there with Frodo. Yes, we did discuss this in great detail before TTT premiered (including resounding "as if!!!" comments from me and others :D :o ) but I'd say that after TTT the interview warrants some new discussion. PJ turns out to have been right - already with the TTT Frodo a lot of viewers had difficulty in really "going there" with him, what with the Ring trances, despair and desperation in the latter scenes of the film. I'm therefore pretty certain this trait will increase significantly further with RotK. PJ and EJW may give us a very disturbing Frodo, and I guess "going there" with him will require a *lot* of analysis and discussion, which is what we are here for! :)
(That said, I *hope* I'll be able to go there and understand Frodo and the effect of the Ring........ The initial disappointment after TTT was unexpected.)

I have no choice but to defend Frodo's honor as the Hero of LotR. ...Frodo couldn't have made it after CU without Sam, but had he been without Sam from Amon Hen, I think he would have made it past Shelob's Lair without being stung and captured (since his relationship with Gollum would have been better).
Apologies to all Sam lovers out there, but though I do like Sam, he can never replace Frodo as the Hero of Lord of the Rings in my mind.
... subjects keep coming up that I'm very passionate about! Defending Frodo's honor is definately one of them.

Tathar - You said that so well! I feel exactly the same. I'd go even further and say that a Sam-free Frodo would have more fully engaged Gollum's sympathy and the resulting, more sustainable partnership would have left Frodo in a stronger (and unpoisoned) state by the time he confronted any orcs. He'd have made it to Crack of Doom, I think.
IMO, Sam could never have been the Ring Bearer because, first, he'd not have been chosen, second, he'd not have volunteered, and, third, if he somehow ended up with the ring, he'd have been too paranoid and impulsive to judge friend from foe, without Frodo's intelligence and purity of mind to resist the ring's influence over the long haul. I know I'm Frodo-centric and don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm loath to see the enduring strength of Frodo's thoughtful and sensitive nature overlooked in favor of conventional 'Yangy' heroes.

Ainon - Great EvilFro pic! Though he doesn't look evil to me. EW's eyes are wide open and clear; his expression intense, focussed, and a bit curious. I don't see 'possession' in it but maybe an awareness that possession is at hand. Btw, I saw that pic at a site which quoted an early ROTK ad which summarized the action of movie 3 as Aragorn's regaining his kingdom, Frodo's continuing his quest, etc, in that order. Was miserable when I first read it (over-reacting as usual :rolleyes: ) - How can the reluctant claiming of a crown (arguably to 'get the girl') be more important than ridding the world of a great evil??? In book, and movie, Aragorn's task is clearly secondary though supportive of Frodo's. Am trusting that the advertising copy was merely sloppy and not reflective of PJ's take (oh I hope!).

Elf-Friend Frodo. Firstly, welcome to The Faculty. Regarding my signature - As Tg pointed out, it is a direct book quote. (As interesting as it would be to be able to lip-read, it is not one of my finer talents!) Seeing as you are planning NOT to continue reading the books before the film trilogy is complete, I don't want to spoil it for you. However, if your curiosity gets the better of you, I'll just say it's from The Two Towers - Book 4 (The Ring Goes East) - Chapter 10, entitled, 'The Choices of Master Samwise.' I would guess the exact page number would differ with so many editions of the book having been published - in my set it's Page 173, and the quote is in Sam's dialogue right at the bottom of the page - 4 pages into the chapter. You have more strength of will than I have - I would never be able to wait another year to see what happened to Frodo. (though PJ may yet have some surprises up his sleeve!) Also I would say you have a very perceptive 10 year old there. :)

Tathar - that's what we're all here for - to express our feelings and opinions, and it's fine to disagree with something you feel strongly about. I think all of us here DO have strong emotions where Frodo is concerned. I completely agree with you about Frodo being the hero - for me there is no question of that, either in the books or the films. Sam's 'heroism' and Frodo's 'weakness' will be even more visually evident in ROTK, I'm afraid. But people have different perceptions of what a hero is, or how he should act, and I guess some just don't 'get' Frodo as the hero because his courage lies within, is internal. He suffers terribly, and yes, he does need Sam's help, but it's his own inner strength of determination and will that keeps him going until the very end.

Maeglian - I had almost forgotten about that book scene where Frodo starts headlong towards the white bridge. Here is the book quote:

'Frodo felt his senses reeling and his mind darkening. Then suddenly, as if some force were at work other than his own will, he began to hurry, tottering forward, his groping hands held out, his head lolling from side to side. Both Sam and Gollum ran after him. Sam caught his master in his arms, as he stumbled and almost fell, right on the threshold of the bridge.
"Not that way! No, not that way!" whispered Gollum, but the breath between his teeth seemed to tear the heavy stillness like a whistle, and he cowered to the ground in terror.
"Hold up, Mr. Frodo!" muttered Sam in Frodo's ear. "Come back! Not that way. Gollum says not, and for once I agree with him."
Frodo passed his hand over his brow and wrenched his eyes way from the city on the hill. The luminous tower fascinated him, and he fought the desire that was on him to run up the gleaming road towards its gate. At last with an effort he turned back, and as he did so, he felt the Ring resisting him, dragging at the chain about his neck; and his eyes too, as he looked away, seemed for the moment to have been blinded. The darkness before him was inpenetrable.'

There are obvious similarities here with the Osgiliath scene, and the 'white bridge' in the book occurs shortly after Faramir has released them. (Chapter 8 - The Stairs of Cirith Ungol) PJ has hyped up the drama, but even book Frodo was badly affected by the Ring's influence at this stage.

Brunhild and Hobmom - LOL at that EW caricature. (Still quite a handsome chap, though!)
Great discussion here, as usual. Must run.
Bye.

I'd go even further and say that a Sam-free Frodo would have more fully engaged Gollum's sympathy and the resulting, more sustainable partnership would have left Frodo in a stronger (and unpoisoned) state by the time he confronted any orcs

Ah yes, but to play devil's advocate, Gollum would have killed Frodo (at Emyn Muil) long before he (Gollum) even had a chance to feel any sympathy towards Frodo, so without Sam, the quest still would have failed.

Gollum would have killed Frodo (at Emyn Muil) long before
I don't think he would have :D

But it took two hobbits to overcome Gollum's attack at Emyn Muil. Why do you think Frodo would have survived if he had been on his own?

Don't get me wrong. I love Frodo. That's why I'm here. But I also do agree that he couldn't have completed the mission without Sam - No more than Sam could have completed the mission without Frodo.

Originally posted by Tathar
Those arguments are for Book-Frodo, of course. As for Movie-Frodo, I hold with my belief that though he is still undeniably the Hero, PJ has sorely underplayed his courage and strength. Thus he makes it seem like Sam is the real hero, because every time the Ring calls him, Frodo cannot resist the urge to put it on unless Sam stops him -- which is completely untrue to the book, at least at that point. So I have not much to say in Movie-Frodo's defense, since he is so wrongly portrayed in TTT, and it's difficult to convince people of his heroism when I myself am constantly frustrated by his lack of will. :( Sigh.

{{{Tathar}}} Blossom's written a lovely post that said all I would have said - better, Blossom quotes from the book! I would have been too lazy to that. :o :p And while I'm not out on a campaign to defend MovieFrodo's honour here (besides, those who read the CoE thread too would be mighty fine sick of me by now! :p) I'll only say that I believe there are many, many wonderful things to be proud of TTTFrodo - whether they would convince other people who've already made up their minds that Frodo's not a good enough hero is a moot point, I suppose, because as has pointed out, even BookFrodo was never understood.

I wonder if Rankin-Bass was one of those who never 'got' Frodo? I've never seen that movie (and I'm thankful now that I could never find it locally) but I can't even begin to figure out why that plot change was made, except to create the absolute worst impression possible about our Frodo! :rolleyes:

Hawken is a very perceptive fellow indeed. You must be so proud him, EFF. :) Here's an example of what Hawken's saying:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt03/ttt024.jpg

Frodo's fighting the Ring. Sam does gently pull his master's hand away (and interestingly, it was actually Gollum who first realised what was happening; Sam might not have noticed at all if Gollum hadn't said anything. Gollum's motives are worth considering there, maybe?), and when he does so he breaks the trance. But Frodo was fighting the Ring on his own. And probably while still feeling that pain in his shoulder. :(


On a much lighter note, this prank made me laugh when I was watching the making of TTT special 'Return to Middle Earth', which I only recently got to watch in its entirety. For some odd reason, the version we had here was a heavily edited half-hour special.

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/behind05/behind047.jpg


naiad, PJ said, from the very beginning, that Frodo is the hero of LOTR. I remember how crazily happy I was to read that during my initial scouring of the Internet for Frodo-related news after FotR came out. And I was happy all over again to hear PJ say this in the one of the earliest special lordoftherings.net documentaries included in the theatrical version DVD. Nothing so far has given me any reason to think PJ would have changed his mind! ;)

I agree with Eyrie that it took both Frodo and Sam to complete the job. It also took the right amount of 'coincidences' to ensure that Frodo would arrive at the Crack of Doom. It's off-topic, but it could be interesting to discuss somewhere if Frodo might have engaged Gollum/Smeagol's sympathy and loyalty if Sam weren't there to 'bug' Gollum. Assuming that Gollum doesn't wrest the Ring from Frodo once he sees Frodo's too weak to fight him off, or to wield the Ring against him! MovieFrodo probably could have, if Smeagol remained as the dominant personality. Even then, MF only reached out to the creature after he realised that Smeagol was there. BookFrodo was kind enough to Gollum, but BookSam was the one who seemed to be paying more attention to Gollum's complexes. p


Hi esgaroth! So you and enaiowen have been busy, huh? Was wondering why Enai hasn't been around for ages! {{{enai}}} Off to read what that's all about now ...


Oh, and bravo, tg, as you continue to build your EW collection. I'm trusting you to screencap anything from 'Internal Affairs' and 'Avalon' that no other site has up! :)


pics from http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net

Originally posted by tgshaw
And, while this is a thread about Elwood, and I think he's potentially the best actor in the history of film...

It finally happened! I *do* agree with tgshaw! Absolutely. :k There are people who will go places (and order films) with EJW no matter what. ;)

Originally posted by Brunhild
It finally happened! I *do* agree with tgshaw! Absolutely. :k There are people who will go places (and order films) with EJW no matter what. ;)
Brunhild -- :D :D

Yeah, we do get off topic occasionally :p , but this thread is for Eljah Wood fans-- even those who aren't :eek: Tolkienites (I avoid "Tolkien fan" for myself, as my connection with Tolkien's writings are much deeper than being a "fan"). Since I knew Frodo for 30+ years before the movies were made, and EW for several years before PJ "discovered" him, I can usually separate the two :p .

I don't think we've got any disagreements here about Elijah's amazing acting as Frodo, even if we don't all agree about how the character's portrayed in the movies. And the disagreements being expressed here regarding Frodo himself have been going on--literally--since the book was published 47 years ago, so I don't think we're likely to resolve them. (Which is the reason I'm more or less sitting on the sidelines for them in this thread. Although I certainly have opinions, they'd need "a week's explanation or none," and I've given them in enough other places that I'm going to opt for "none" here and try to stick with talking about Elijah :) .)

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I dropped in to say that the newspaper here ran an article in the Fashion section yesterday about the popularity of the "modern crop" (otherwise knows as a buzz cut :p ). So if Elwood goes back to it between roles, he's right in style. The men interviewed gave pretty much the same reason for the cut as he did--simple to take care of. One also said he liked the sensation of feeling the wind and heat on his head--okay :rolleyes: (at least he won't mind it too much if he goes bald in the future).

Also a bit of a heads-up (no pun intended :o ) that I'll be taking down the page of "first attack" screencaps at the end of March, in case anyone wants to copy any of them--my feeling is that they were a "visual aid" for a short discussion, but don't really have enough long-term interest to keep using space on the website (in fact, I've never even worked them into the main linking system of the website, but you'll find them at First Attack? (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id161.htm). I am aiming at having caps from the "one-take scene" in Huck Finn for April. Then I'd like to do something from The Ice Storm--let me know if there's anything particular you'd like to see (as long as it involves Mikey and it's not R-rated) :) .

Originally posted by naiad

You said that so well! I feel exactly the same. I'd go even further and say that a Sam-free Frodo would have more fully engaged Gollum's sympathy and the resulting, more sustainable partnership would have left Frodo in a stronger (and unpoisoned) state by the time he confronted any orcs. He'd have made it to Crack of Doom, I think.

IMO, Sam could never have been the Ring Bearer because, first, he'd not have been chosen, second, he'd not have volunteered, and, third, if he somehow ended up with the ring, he'd have been too paranoid and impulsive to judge friend from foe, without Frodo's intelligence and purity of mind to resist the ring's influence over the long haul. I know I'm Frodo-centric and don't mean to be argumentative, but I'm loath to see the enduring strength of Frodo's thoughtful and sensitive nature overlooked in favor of conventional 'Yangy' heroes.

Thanks for the agreement, naiad! :k And I also completely agree with you that Frodo would have made it to the Cracks of Doom alone -- like you said, he would have been stronger with Smeagol's constant presence, probably. Didn't Tolkien talk about something like this in his letters? I believe he said that had Smeagol remained unchanged (if SAM hadn't gone and ruined that would-be repentence in CU!), that he would have tried to satisfy both the desires of himself and the desires of Gollum -- by taking the Ring from Frodo, but then throwing himself into the Cracks of Doom voluntarily. Interesting to think about.

Also, I really agree with what you said about Sam -- for one thing, he was not chosen, he would have been too impetuous and paranoid to correctly judge friend from foe (for instance, he no doubt would have killed Gollum and asked questions later), and he didn't volunteer at the Council. I've been thinking about that lately -- mightn't he have thought to try and save his master pain by volunteering to bear the Ring himself? But no, he didn't. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that Sam wasn't brave, but he just wasn't as brave as Frodo. :o

And Maeg, I'm with naiad on whether or not Frodo would have made it past Emyn Muil alone -- though you did bring up an interesting point that I hadn't thought of. But if we're still talking about Book-Frodo here, then I can argue that it really didn't take both hobbits to overcome Gollum -- Sam (again :rolleyes: ) impetuously rushes out there and Frodo has to save him (something I was relieved to see still mostly intact in the movie!). But were Frodo alone, I think he would have been able to capture Gollum and "tame" him. It would be more difficult to guess whether or not Movie-Frodo would have been able to tame him alone -- since, like you said, it did take both of them to catch him.

Someone needs to write a fan fic about this, methinks. :rolleyes:

ainon, I did sit through the Rankin-Bass Return of the King :eek: -- and I couldn't decide whether to laugh or cry at the ridiculous changes they made. As far as I remember, Frodo did not take the Ring and hide for weeks, although the entire Mt. Doom scene was pretty weird. :rolleyes: But one of the strangest changes was at the beginning, when Sam finds the Ring, the star-glass, and Sting -- no mention of Shelob, just that Frodo's been captured. And when he finds Frodo, he asks about the "magical" powers of the star-glass; Frodo replies that he can't tell him the source of its "magic" or it will fade and lose the power. :confused: That was the weirdest change, to me, although I still can't figure out why they omitted Legolas and Gimli, gave Aragorn about two lines, and had everyone in Minas Tirith waving palm branches and wearing clothes from Jesus' time (really trying to push that allegory of Aragorn as Christ, the returning King?). And there's another thing about the movie that I never figured out, that's still got me chuckling over it. Pippin's first line, once the story begins to be told, is: "He's gone loony I tell ya!" :eek: :D

And yes, I actually do like the Dead Marshes scene that you posted the pic from, ainon -- Frodo was indeed fighting the Ring on his own! :eek: (Hooray! :rolleyes: ) Although I still wish Sam wouldn't have intervened, thus making it seem that Frodo couldn't fight it alone -- I would have liked to see him go a bit longer, and see if he would regain control of his will (somehow that reminds me of the WiKi-encounter at Minas Morgul...). I think he would, but of course we never get to find out... :rolleyes:

((Faculty)) Thanks for bearing with me through all my rantings :o. :k

Ainon, thank you so much for posting that cap from "Return to Middle Earth!" I loved that when I first saw it...there's something SO fascinating about Elijah done up like Frodo from the neck up, but wearing his own clothes! And once again, I just don't understand how people can just sit there so nonchalantly and not be utterly bedazzled and befuddled by his beauty. And I mean that in a completely non-sexual way...I mean, how can anyone just not have to break off their conversation every couple of minutes to say, "Man...you are SO freaking beautiful!" I guess folks just get used to it after a while!

Won't weigh in on the whole Heroic Frodo debate. I think most of you know where I stand! ;)

I don't mean to be argumentative, but Tathar, naiad: Why do you think that Frodo could have defeated Gollum at Emyn Muil if he was on his own, when Sam could not do so. This goes for both book-Frodo and movie-Frodo.

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
I don't mean to be argumentative, but Tathar, naiad: Why do you think that Frodo could have defeated Gollum at Emyn Muil if he was on his own, when Sam could not do so. This goes for both book-Frodo and movie-Frodo.

Don't worry about being argumentative, EE! :D Debate is fun! :rolleyes:

To answer your question though, here is my argument.

Book-Frodo: The reason Sam could not overcome Gollum was because he impetuously rushed out there without properly considering the situation, and most importantly, because he didn't understand Gollum and thus could not anticipate Gollum's agility and cunning. I think Frodo, having grown up with Bilbo and knowing much more about Gollum, and also having given it a good deal of thought most likely, would have been more sensible and have been able to figure out a way to capture Gollum alone. Another thing, too, is that he had the Ring -- if need arose (as it did eventually), he had the ability to use it to subdue Gollum.

Movie-Frodo: Hmmmm, that's more difficult -- in the movie, it is both of them, and Gollum seems even more viscous than in the book at that part. But still, I think the same would basically apply to MF -- he would be able to come up with a sensible way to capture Gollum alone. We can't forget the (a) he possesses the Ring, (b) he has an Elven sword that Gollum fears and hates, and (c) he knows a lot about Gollum and again, as probably thought about the creature a good deal since Gandalf's words to him in Moria. I think he would, too, have been able to capture Gollum.

I think this discussion could be really interested -- how would Frodo's relationship with Gollum/Smeagol have gone without Sam? and would Frodo have made it without Sam? -- and if enough of us are interested in debating it, maybe we should start a whole new thread about it? :)

Had to get back in here before bedtime because tg said:

I am aiming at having caps from the "one-take scene" in Huck Finn for April.

Ooh! Bless you! :k

'Ice Storm' ... that moment of wonder as he stands alone in that field, in the middle of that cold icy night. I hate that hood :p but EW's performance in that mere half-minute (?) was just so sublime.


Elda -- LOL! I was watching the make-up lady turn EW into Frodo, and I couldn't [i[believe[/i] that she wasn't standing back in awe to just *gaze* at him after her work was done!


I would have liked to see him go a bit longer, and see if he would regain control of his will (somehow that reminds me of the WiKi-encounter at Minas Morgul...). I think he would, but of course we never get to find out...

We do, actually, at Henneth Annun. :) It costs him so much, each time he resists. :(

Thanks for the Rankin-Bass cliffnotes. I'll just say :eek: :eek: :eek:

And Thank You to enai and esgaroth! Had a mighty fine laugh! :cool:

Originally posted by ainon
We do, actually, at Henneth Annun. :) It costs him so much, each time he resists. :(

Good point, ainon! I had completely forgotten about that scene :o -- I've always thought that was one of the better parts of TTT, proving that Frodo CAN reisist the Ring on his own. (Am I right in thinking that his "NOO!" was more directed to the Ring than to Faramir? :confused: ) And while Same is pleading with Faramir to let them go, Frodo's labored breathing in the background alone speaks so much of what it cost him to refuse the Ring's call! :( Thank you for reminding me, ainon -- so TTTFrodo isn't completely badly characterized. :D

And tg, I have to echo ainon: Bless you! That "one-take" scene is one of my favorites! :D

Tathar - Re: fan fic on G "& G at Emyn Muil - it's in the works! (Just trying to figure out how to pre-occupy Sam.)

Offtopic rant -
Re: buzz-cuts - {{{HAIR}}}
Hair is sooo beautiful (and sexy).

A bit of old and non-LOTR related EJW news:

Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak
The Shoah Foundation has just completed work on a third educational CD-ROM, Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak, designed for middle school students ages 11-14. Narrated by Elijah Wood and Natalie Portman, the CD-ROM highlights testimonies from four child survivors, supported by an historical overview, archival film footage, an extensive glossary, maps, and survivors' personal photos. [...] A teacher's guide will be included, to promote educational distribution throughout the United States in public and private schools in 2003.

Random thoughts:
IIRC, EJW mentioned it in one of his interviews.
EJW should be made Honorary Jewish Kid for his contributions to this project, Avalon, and North. :cool:
It could be interesting to see EJW and Natalie Portman work together on something like this (http://www.nyx.net/~kbanker/chautauqua/jd.htm). Both of them have done enough for the Fantasy/SciFi genre. ;)

Originally posted by Brunhild
EJW should be made Honorary Jewish Kid for his contributions to this project, Avalon, and North. :cool:
And The Witness--has Elve or anyone ever gotten hold of that? If any of his previous work helped get him interested in the Holocaust project, it might have been that. (I must have missed the Jewish Kid aspect of North :confused: .)

It could be interesting to see EJW and Natalie Portman work together on something like this (http://www.nyx.net/~kbanker/chautauqua/jd.htm). Both of them have done enough for the Fantasy/SciFi genre. ;)
Brunhild--I didn't realize until using the quote function that that "this" was a link and not just underlined :p . So now I'll have to go back and check it out. Seeing chautauqua in the URL: around this part of the country at least, Chautauqua usually involves actors taking the parts of historical characters in a somewhat impromptu way, so I'm curious to see if it's related.

........[After following the link] Well, that's a side of Chautauqua I've never seen before. No, I wouldn't like to see the two of them in that--I've had to deal with enough endings like that in real life; I'd rather not deal with them fictionally, too. -- But that's just me.

BTW, Elijah said in one interview that no one's had the "nerve" [not the word he used :rolleyes: ] to send him a fantasy script since LotR, and if they did he wouldn't take the part--that he's already been involved in the best fantasy story there is, so why would he want to do something less? [I don't recall him saying anything about science fiction ;) .]

tgshaw, the only aspect of 'North' that could be considered Jewish would be Elijah's rendition of 'If I Were a Rich Man' at the school play.:D

peaceweaver has a copy of the short film 'The Witness' which I think she may have gotten from Elve. It's about 8 minutes long. We watched it one night before going on to lighter fare (Leno, Regis & Kelly, etc). A very moving, powerful film, not for the squeamish or faint of heart. Elijah's character says not a word throughout the entire 8 minutes, but he's absolutely riveting. It is stunning to think that a normal, well-adjusted 9 or 10 year old (not exactly sure how old he was when it was made) could bring forth such emotions. You watch and you believe that this child is imprisoned in a concentration camp. He deserved an award of some kind for his role!

When did Elwood do the narration for the Shoah Foundation project?

Well, I kept hoping people would pick up on the various hints, but since they haven't, I will formally request that extended discussion of the book characters take place in the Green Dragon forum. Extended discussion of book characters vs. movie characters should be done in the Trilogy forum. Thank you very much. :)

On topic... did anyone else see that article in USA Today last week, jokingly presenting new twists on old TV series? They suggested a new version of "Dennis the Menace", with Elwood playing Dennis and in the first episode running off with Mr. Wilson's ring. :p

Originally posted by tgshaw
I must have missed the Jewish Kid aspect of North :confused: .
So did I but it seems to be the case anyway (see, e.g., the third paragraph from the end of this review (http://www.tvguide.com/movies/database/ShowMovie.asp?MI=36191)). I've been told by knowledgeable people that EJW is quite convincing ;).

Ermm Yeah...I agree with Elevensies! Look Elle it CAN happen!!!
:eek: ;)

We are supposed to talk about Elijah here and not concentrate on in depth Frodo discussions. Of course we can talk about Elijah playing Frodo but analyzing strictly Frodo stuff goes either to the Harem or the places Elle mentioned.

Not being mean to anybody really!... I love Frodo... But this is Elijah's thread(non-swoony) as is Hugs(Very swoony!). So let's talk about Frodo in his threads and Elijah here and there.

He looks so sweet and innocent how does he cause all this confusion? ;)

Well, meaning no disrespect, Frodo discussions aren't really off-topic, since it always comes back to Elijah's portrayal of him, but... Is there a Book-Frodo vs Movie-Frodo/Without Sam thread in the Trilogy section? If not, I guess I'll start one, and we can continue our debate about Frodo's Relationship With Gollum Without Sam! (I was actually just about to suggest that we do that, but you beat me!) :D Since the Harem is admittedly pretty swoony. :eek: Though I'm no doubt the minority here, I do think that Frodo is more interesting than Elwood...:rolleyes:

And I wouldn't consider our current debate an "extended" discussion -- since as I said, we always go back to EJW's portrayal. And Frodo should always have a place in Elijah discussions, I think. :o

Originally posted by Tathar
... Is there a Book-Frodo vs Movie-Frodo/Without Sam thread in the Trilogy section? If not, I guess I'll start one, and we can continue our debate about Frodo's Relationship With Gollum Without Sam!
Well, let's see: there's "Elijah Wood's Frodo" in the General Trilogy forum to talk about Frodo in all three movies, "Frodo in TTT" in the (surprise! :D TTT forum), "RIP Frodo, Faramir and Treebeard?" [not sure about the order there] also in the TTT forum for mostly disgruntled comments, and the "Shelob's Lair" thread in the RotK forum, which has become pretty much about any hopes and/or fears regarding that movie. So IMHO there are a few to pick from already (to see some of them you have to lengthen the "last 30 days" choice).

Some of the newer folks might not be aware that we've gone through this before (more than once), and it really does seem useful to try to keep each thread more or less on topic (there's always going to be some overlap, and the mods here have really been quite laid back about it).

One reason I like to post stuff in the Trilogy or Green Dragon when appropriate is that a lot of KD people are very interested in the movies and/or the books, but never come into the Community Cafe. Some of them have very good insights that I'd hate to lose (Will Whitfoot is the first to come to mind, but there are others). The other forums don't move as fast as this one, but if someone pulls up an old thread and adds a new thought, it's surprising how quickly it'll pick up other posters.

Though I'm no doubt the minority here, I do think that Frodo is more interesting than Elwood...:rolleyes:
Hmmm... Actually, I kind of doubt it. And if you're in the minority, you're certainly not alone--If I had to choose between the two, I'd pick Frodo any time. But this particular thread is where I come to talk about Elijah (as Frodo or in any other role).

Originally posted by Brunhild
A bit of old and non-LOTR related EJW news:

Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak
The Shoah Foundation has just completed work on a third educational CD-ROM, Voices of the Holocaust: Children Speak, designed for middle school students ages 11-14. Narrated by Elijah Wood and Natalie Portman, the CD-ROM highlights testimonies from four child survivors, supported by an historical overview, archival film footage, an extensive glossary, maps, and survivors' personal photos. [...] A teacher's guide will be included, to promote educational distribution throughout the United States in public and private schools in 2003.
thank you Brunhild. i've been wondering if there was ever or will there ever be a project wherein two of my favorite actors can get to work together. i'm glad there's something like this. thanks for the heads up :) i will try to look for this CD-ROM. since its educational, it should be availbale at certain Public Libraries right?

It could be interesting to see EJW and Natalie Portman work together on something like this (http://www.nyx.net/~kbanker/chautauqua/jd.htm). Both of them have done enough for the Fantasy/SciFi genre. ;)
curious.... what's this? i'm still reading it.

i am very much tempted to join the movies vs book Frodo debate, (to those who wanted a "stronger" film Frodo, kudos to you folks, you're doing a good job!) but many members (and lurkers) here may still be sore about me :p, so i think i'd better shut my trap.

Originally posted by tgshaw
it really does seem useful to try to keep each thread more or less on topic (there's always going to be some overlap, and the mods here have really been quite laid back about it). <snip> But this particular thread is where I come to talk about Elijah (as Frodo or in any other role).

I've written about six posts expressing a similar sentiment in the last few days and never posted them. (I'm actively working to control my mini-mod tendencies :p) I've enjoyed the many Frodo threads and discussions I've been a part of in the last year(book vs movie, who's the hero, etc etc etc), but they are definitely big enough to deserve their own threads, attracting a group of people who want to concentrate on debating / discussing a particular subject relating primarily to Frodo. (I feel like I've had my say over the last year. ;), and I certainly know which threads and boards to go to if I want to discuss Frodo further! ) The Faculty has been the only place I have found for good grown-up Elijah research and discussion, and I miss my daily dose.

Brunhild, I would definitely NOT be interested in seeing Elijah in a role like that. :eek:

from LEK
but many members (and lurkers) here may still be sore about me , so i think i'd better shut my trap.

Huh???

NO WAY!!!

As someone who is still reluctant to return to CoE and thus wanders their halls rarely and usually in search of someone, I can say that my feelings about the demise of the Faculty thread there has no connection at all with how I feel about you. :) And since we all are always pleased to see you on your (alas) rare visits I am totally sure the rest of the migrants feel the same way. Absolutely sure.

So debate away!!! I am, like, soooo ready to contradict everything you say (as a movie fan) :p ;) Umm...which thread is all this Frodo: movie versus book stuff going to be in? I get lost easily.
*heading off for Trilogy threads (after dinner that is ,I feel a vague obligation to feed the small ones first...), no search party required as of yet...* ;)

And welcome back LEK. So stay already!!

Talk about Faculty synchronicity ... I was sitting quietly in my room after work, using the new computer there (which can play VCD movies) to try to screencap stuff from 'The Witness', and then I pop over to the lab to catch up and the Faculty's been talking about 'The Witness'. :p

That was my first time fooling around with screencapping and the results are downright pathetic. I don't know where the problem was. Sigh. But since the topic's come up here, I'll share a couple of my measly efforts.*

Elijah's character:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1913980.jpg

Gary Sinise, who plays the German soldier:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1913982.jpg


I had actually tried a frame-by-frame screencap of some significant scenes -- I blame tgshaw :k and deluby :k for making me think that I could pull off such a thing. :D While I'm here in the lab with fast net connection I might as well upload them all to my VillagePhotos account anyway. Not that I know how I'm gonna be able to share them. Or if anyone would be interested - the story's so dark. :o


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Brunhild - thanks for that story. I've never read anything by J.D. Salinger. It was ... disturbing. Reminded me of the movie 'They Shoot Horses, Don't They?'


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There hasn't been any news on the EW front for ages! This is one random EW-related 'news' picked up from warofthering.net . Only quoting the EW parts, and I'm not linking because I'm unsure about the site. Go to warofthering for the link.


The Tattoos of the Fellowship of the Ring

Tattoos often play a part in marking important experiences in our lives. The cast of the Lord of the Rings spent the better part of a year and a half in New Zealand working on the film trilogy. Towards the end of the shoot, the actors playing the Fellowship decided to commemorate the making of the movies by getting tattooed. The chosen design was a word in flowing Elvish script symbolizing the number nine. One of the film’s calligrapher’s drew a few versions and the final one was selected by the actors. The tattoos were done by Wellington tattooist Roger Ingerton.

Elijah Wood and Sir Ian McKellan were not only the youngest and oldest members of the group respectively, but neither had ever been tattooed before, and supposedly held each other’s hands during the process. Elijah has repeatedly remarked he found the experience to be very painful. Some of that may be due to his choice to have the design placed on his right front hipbone.


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And LEK - if you don't learn to stick around, we're gonna have to hunt you down and subject you to continuous viewings of Rankin-Bass' 'The Hobbit', Bakshi's LOTR, and the nine-fingered whatever. :D {{{LEK}}}


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editing to add
* Availability of pics is highly dependent on bandwidth from VillagePhotos, so I apologise in advance if they don't show.

Baby Elijah is the cutest little kid ever.:D And his acting is just wow. So, so insightful, I know:rolleyes:...well, it's late.:o

And my dad caught a Froshadowing!:cool: After Huck wakes up at the Wilks house, and is lying there talking to Mary Jane, Dad asked, "Hey, isn't this the part where Sam runs in and grabs his hand?" I've trained my family well.;)

I caught a few more Froshadowings than Dad did, of course...And I got a new custom title from the movie.;)

Thus endeth the review.:p Tathar:

Originally posted by Tathar
I think this discussion could be really interested -- how would Frodo's relationship with Gollum/Smeagol have gone without Sam? and would Frodo have made it without Sam? -- and if enough of us are interested in debating it, maybe we should start a whole new thread about it?

I would be a kazillion percent interested in defending Sam's usefulness - I mean, in continuing this discussion.:) I'm not sure which (if any) thread would be most suitable for a discussion involving movie-Fro and Sam, or if it would be best to make a new one. (But can I request that we not move to the "Shelob's Lair" thread? Because that's got ROTK spoilers in it, and oh, I've been doing so well at avoiding them...well, sort of...:o )

I do think that Frodo is more interesting than Elwood

That's your choice... But this is one of Elijah's threads. Many of us here view both Frodo and Elijah as equally interesting but there are many Frodo threads and the long Fro-discussions go there... Elwood/his films/his talent go here. Swooning for Elwood goes in Hugs. Swooning for Frodo goes in the Harem. Intellectual Frodo analysis goes in those other threads that I've got to check out.

No offense to the newer posters.... This is just the ropes around here.

It took me forever to get this sorted out and I still get into trouble for cross-posting.

Such is the baffling wonderment of Elijah/Frodo.

Edit- Woh!!!! Is that Gary Sinise being mean to baby Elijah!!! Who knew?!!! I have no clue as to how to get ahold of this small film.

Originally posted by Prim
I can say that my feelings about the demise of the Faculty thread there has no connection at all with how I feel about you
it wasn't about the Faculty thread ;)

btw, 1/4 of the way reading through "Bananafish" it suddenly struck me that i've read it before. i remember reading it as one of the pieces we were considering for a radio play. problem that it was too short and the resolution wasn't as "clear" as a radio play resolution ought to be. anyway, i thought this piece was very interesting (no wonder JD Salinger sounded familiar, but not the title. but we ended up doing something else (also a "psychological" piece, couldn't remember if it was from Salinger too though, but the lead charcter's name was "Alecti"). its quite possible for them to base a screenplay out of Bananafish, since every charcter there are very intersting. that kid who plays Sybil, i'm thinking Dakota Fanning (from "I am Sam") would do quite well.

Bridget, if you're willing to debate, so am I!!! :D I seem to be that way by nature -- if someone doesn't agree with me, I like to argue until they do. :p Good-naturedly, of course. :rolleyes:

Where should we start it, though, Trilogy or the Green Dragon? Neither of them seem much-visited. :(

Well, if I do go start a new thread (wherever), that means I'll be spending most of my time arguing, so I won't be visiting the Faculty much anymore. Not that I'll be much missed, I'm sure, since I think I've pretty much built up a reputation for myself as a "war-monger." :o

So TTFN and hugs, Faculty! :k

Tathar

Ainon - I also love that 'Return to Middle Earth' pic you posted. Luckily, I managed to tape the hour-long version too. IIRC Elijah and Dom were leaning over the table totally engrossed in whatever they were doing, when Sean came up behind them and popped a party-popper. Elijah and Dom almost jumped out of their skins!

Has anyone else checked out the 'lotr onset' clip on Elve's site? (Frodoandsam.net) It's in with the mtv moviehouse section. It features various behind the scenes footage including Elijah wearing his shades (possibly on Caradhras) together with Gandalf's rather large pointy hat. About half-way through you see EW doing his Spice Girls impression - it is EW dressed as Frodo but being very EW. He sings 'I'll tell you what I want,' ( I think that's the title of the song:confused: ) in a very silly voice. Very funny. (But then I do tend to laugh at daft things!)

Also ainon -don't you dare play your screencapping talents down! That cap you posted of little EW in 'The Witness' is heart-wrenching - his little face behind the wire - quite chilling considering the concept of the story. I would love to see that - can't think how, unless some kind person puts the clip up somewhere.

elevensies - I must hold my hands up and admit to being among the 'off-topic' posters over the last couple of pages. Sorry! It's all down to the fact that EW is SO CONVINCING as Frodo it's easy to get carried away. I will try to be good from now on!

Tg - can't wait for your 'Huck Finn' screencaps. That one is on my 'yet to see' list, along with 'The Good Son.' I hope to order the 'Huck Finn' DVD in the next couple of weeks, so with luck it won't be too long before I can join in with any relevant discussions. I would love to get 'Avalon,' 'Radio Flyer' and 'Bumblebee' on DVD, but alas, our player won't support the US region discs. At least I managed to get 'Bumblebee' on video, (fortunately our VCR supports NTSC) and that's better than not having it at all. 'Avalon' and 'Radio Flyer' I taped off sattelite TV, but have wondered lately if - for the sake of quality - it would be worth ordering these two on video from Amazon.

I think the young EW is simply captivating in 'Avalon' - I love the 'May and can' scene when little Michael is at school. The teacher sends him out into the corridor to work out the difference between 'may' and 'can' and he (quite spontaneously, it seems to me) does a little dance. Adorable. Another favourite is the scene where the circus arrives during the family meeting, and the children run out to watch the parade. Michael's reactions and expressions as he side-skips along the pavement to keep up with the elephants is so endearing. Brilliant performance from EW even at that young age.

Good to see Elijah being involved with the Shoah Foundation CD ROM 'Voices Of The The Holocaust.' Does anyone know if he did that quite recently? Didn't I read somewhere on this thread (possibly in a link to an interview) that EW had worked on a 'Holocaust' project with Steven Spielberg? Is this the same one?

Must go and do some work. I have a door waiting to be varnished.:(
Bye

Just popped back to say - Tathar - don't desert us. But if you do, I'll probably see you in the new thread sometime.

It's really not that dire a situation, folks. There is more to KD than the Cafe. ("Can't you hear yourself? Don't you know who you sound like?!" :eek: ) The fact that other forums move more slowly is not a reason to avoid them - it is, in fact, a reason to post there. There are many wonderful posters who rarely or never venture to the Cafe, and it would be a pity to miss their insights.

Here's a thread in General Trilogy to discuss Elwood's portray of Frodo: Elijah Wood's Frodo (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=946). This would be a good place to talk extensively about how he interepreted the role and the movie character vs. the book character. As tg said, there is also a thread about it in the TTT forum specifically about the changes from book to movie in TTT (Frodo in TTT (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1761)) but it might be better to keep in the General Trilogy forum, with two films under our belt and another one coming soon.

To discuss such things as "who is the real hero of LotR", the best forum for that is the Green Dragon (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=8&pagenumber=1&sortfield=lastpost&sortorder=desc&daysprune=1000&x=9&y=8). There is no such thread yet, so go ahead and start one. :)

One way to get peeps over there is to put a link to it in your sig ("Click here to argue with me about the real hero of LotR!") :p. Trust me, once a topic gets started, many people flock there to get their twopence in. ;)

And I seriously doubt it will cut into time with other threads - you're having the same discussion you would have anyway, just in a different thread.:cool:

Wasn't there some speculation about whether Peter Jackson would be at the Academy Awards or not? From something I just glimpsed on tv I think he is, and Elijah Wood was with him--at some pre-Oscar party? Someone was asking them the same old, same old, and they were grinning madly in their tuxedos and looking very pleased and polite.

If somebody does start a new Frodo thread or revive an old one, would you kindly post a link here? I took a quick look around but didn't spot anything new or recent that look like what's been proposed above. Thanks!

Edit: Oops, cross-posted with Elevensies.;)

(((((Lady E-K)))))
Twice in one week! Wow! I hope you do have time for Frodo debate if the threads get going. :) Haven't tangled with you on that in a while. ;)

Originally posted by Elevensies
("Can't you hear yourself? Don't you know who you sound like?!" :eek: )

Aw, Elevensies. (((((Elevensies))))) You don't, at all.

I confess I'm one of the ones feeling a little antsy to have the Ring-and-Frodo based conversation shifted to another thread. Not that I've had time to post on the topic, or predict having time between now and when my parents have breezed through. :rolleyes: But I would love to hear what Apprentice and Chica Chubb and some others who don't have time to visit the Faculty might have to say. The Faculty moves pretty rapidly, so people interested in mainly Frodo-talk probably don't bother to follow it.

Mind you, I am not arguing in favor of the idea that every mention of Frodo be stripped out of this thread, and I don't think that's what Elevensies is saying either. You have to mention Frodo's motivations in discussing what EW is doing sometimes. But in this case the focus was definitely on Frodo, and the Ring, not on EW's interpretation of Frodo. Well, from my point of view, that is. :) Regular posters to the thread had mentioned that it might be best to move the conversation elsewhere, and I really don't feel this is an "imposed from above" issue. JMHO. ;)

I have a copy of The Witness (thanks to ainon), and would be happy to copy that for anyone who wants it. Don't expect it before... uh, May? :D But I will get it out eventually if someone asks. I'm cavalier about stuff that was broadcast initially and isn't available on disc or tape. ;)

Flourish,
I thought PJ was basically boycotting the Awards? Thinking back, maybe he just meant all the lobbying stuff preceeding it.

Thanks for the Shoah stuff and related links, Brunhild. I hope I can take a raincheck on that topic until I have more time - looks interesting!

Which is true of so much more on the thread right now. Time, I need more time! :eek: :D

Sheryl

Blossom--The Good Son isn't available on DVD in the US or Canada, so if you get hold of that ;) :) , maybe we could put you in charge of screencapping the Froshadowings in that one (quite a few, IMHO, second only to Huck Finn)? Also, IMVHO, if you have a good video copy of Bumblebee, there isn't much need for the DVD unless you're an addicted screencapper. The only extra material is a set of brief filmographies of the main actors--nothing we don't know. (I have gotten some good "study" screencaps from Bumblebee, but not much to post because Barney is such a low-key character. The main thing I've noticed is the contrast between him and the more openly emotional characters Elijah has played; as I think I might have mentioned before, it's kind of difficult to post a series of caps labeled, "Here's Barney not responding to..." :rolleyes: )

Sheryl just posted, I see--I totally agree about Apprentice and Chica Chubb, and would add Niphredil and Mel and Diamondlass and others I could name if I thought about it a bit. I think some people must subscribe to those forums, waiting for something to pop up--just before I came here, I started a new thread in the FotR forum (it's really not hard to do ;) ), and before I got back to the main page there was already a reply.

--and Sheryl, I'd be very interested in getting hold of a copy of The Witness. Should I (or anyone else interested) PM you for instructions, and to find out what format it's in? [BTW, I'm in agreement about items that can't be gotten hold of in an "official" manner. If it were possible to buy it, I would, in order to give everyone--including Elijah--their due. But when something just isn't available that way... :confused: ]

News Flash- Right now on the WB channel ...Oliver Twist with Elwood as Dodger! Right now hurry up! It's better than I thought and Elwood is just fine!

Good HUGE batch of Bumblebee caps here. You have to register but it doesn't cost anything and it's quick but you will be there all afternoon looking at the piccies.

Bumblebee Caps (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4290630197&bnak=1&bnak=1)

I saw on TORN that PJ wasn't going to the Oscars... Too busy with ROTK. Don't know about Elijah. Hope he goes and get's there safely considering the world situation right now. Sunshine is STILL filming in NY so that's probably where he is.

Here's a lit thread for you:

Frodo, Sam, Gollum, and the Ring (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1894)

I don't subscribe to anything... when I've got time to be online, I bounce around between forums looking for interesting discussions. I lurk here, but it's been a long time since I've seen any of Elijah's non-LotR movies, and I don't have the interest or obsession to try to get movies like Black & White or Bumblebee or some of the other movies that aren't available in my local video store, so I don't post much. (If Try Seventeen ever makes it to video, or if Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind shows here before it's been discussed to death, I'll de-lurk and talk about them, though...)

Also, I don't want to rent Flipper if I know the person working at the video store (which in many cases, I do...) :o

Mel

Meryl Marie mentioned a Huck Finn Froshadowing in the Harem I don't remember hearing before:

Favorite bit of Fro-shadowing: Huck being restrained by a big guy as a mob prepares to tar and feather his con-man pals. Amazingly similar to a certain encounter with a hunky Gondorian....

:cool:

Some lovely Frodo artwork in the Harem by Hobmom and Ariel, too. :)

Originally posted by tgshaw
I'd be very interested in getting hold of a copy of The Witness. Should I (or anyone else interested) PM you for instructions, and to find out what format it's in?

Our copy is a VCD, and it'd be easiest to send it on in that format. Hubby could also shrink it for e-mail or burn a DVD. And, yes, anyone interested should PM me. Speaking of which, I'm thinking I need to go clear out my PM box... :eek:

Originally posted by mel headstrong

Also, I don't want to rent Flipper if I know the person working at the video store (which in many cases, I do...)

To quote Sulu in an old Star Trek - "Coward!" ;)

I suppose if you know them you can't use the old dodge of "chillins visiting," either. :D

And you could give your opinion on stuff that's been out a while, y'know - although topics do fade out at times, I'm not sure there is such a thing as much of anything EW permanently "discussed to death" in the Faculty. :p

Sheryl

I rented 'Flipper' and survived the young Blockbuster guy referring to it as ..... 'The...er...other movie...' when telling me when it was due back.... As if it was porn or something.:rolleyes:

Hey I COULD have been renting it for my kids ..if I had any.
Anyway Elijah is adorable in it and the scenes with the dolphins are beautiful ...So what do those video store guys know?

Go rent it. It's OK. Or you can always get it from Amazon.

.... As if it was porn or something.

*giggle*

I like Flipper. Fortuneately I don't have to hire it: I taped it off tv (though the wretches cut short the dolphin scenes).

Now if we could only find a way to delete/surgically extract Hogan I could say that I love it.
Well, maybe not. Still, my kids love it and that must count for something since they are the intended market.

I still really love the silhouette shot.

Here are the old gifs I promised, sorry it's a couple of days late. :o
Can't put them up all together at the same time due to space limit, so here's the first batch(FOTR and SEE).

From FOTR:
01. Seeing the dragon firework at Bilbo's party.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/01party.gif

02. Reaction to Bilbo's farewell.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/02farewell.gif

03. Drawing sword at weathertop.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/03weathertop.gif

04. morgul blade going into Frodo's shoulder.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/04blade.gif

05. reappear after taking off the ring.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/05blade2.gif

06. Sam and Merry trying to comfort him.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/06blade3.gif

07. Strider coming to rescue.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/07blade4.gif

08. Sam holding Frodo's bloody hand with Merry and Pippin by his side.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/08weathertop2.gif

09. waking up in Rivendell.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/09wakeup.gif

10. walking under the tree with Sam in Rivendell.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/10rivendell.gif

11. at Council of Elrond--relief after handing out the ring.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/11coe1.gif

12. COE--the quick cut Ring headache.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/12coe2.gif

13. COE--after the headache, part 1.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/13coe3.gif

14. part 2.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/14coe4.gif

15. part 3.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/15coe5.gif

16. when Boromir mentions "the great Eye is ever watchful..."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/16coe6.gif

17. in moria, after Gandalf's "Ah, it's that way."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/17moria.gif

18. right before Gandalf's fall:"Gandaaalf!!!"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/18bridge.gif

19. "Nooooooooooo!!!!!!"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/19fall.gif

20. The Tear outside moria.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/20grief.gif

21. Seeing Galadriel descending the stairs in Lothlorien.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/21lorien1p.gif

22. "He has fallen into shadow..."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/24lorien4p.gif

23. "Do not let your hearts be troubled."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/25lorien5p.gif

24. "Tonight you will sleep in peace..."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/27lorien7p.gif

25. at Galadriel's mirror.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/29mirror2p.gif

26. seeing the burning of hobbiton.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/33mirror5p.gif

27. seeing the Eye.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/34mirror6p.gif

28. leaving Lorien.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/35anduin1.gif

29. "Farewell, Frodo Baggins..."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/36anduin2.gif

30. "I give you the light of Earendil, our most beloved star."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/37anduin3p.gif

31. "May it be a light for you in dark places, when all other lights go out."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/38anduin4p.gif

32. Frodo senses Boromir's conflict at the river bank.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/39anduin5p.gif

33. the hand clasp under water.
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/40clasp.gif


From SEE:
1. Hiding from the Sackville-Baggins at Bilbo's party. "Thank you my boy. You're a good lad, Frodo."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se01.gif

2. "The point is, Frodo...you'll be alright."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se02.gif

3. "Sam! Wood-Elves!"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se03.gif

4. "Me neither, Sam"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se04.gif

5. before reaching moria, Gandalf: "You must trust yourself. Trust your own strengths."
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se05.gif

6. "What do you mean?"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/se06.gif


I think I'll leave those up for about a week or two before taking them down and update with the rest(TTT, other miscellaneous collages).
I just realised that I still haven't finish gif-ing SEE. :o

------------------------
:k ainon. Thank you for the caps from "The Witness" but the pics are not showing for me, :( *kicks VillagePhoto* :mad: I'll try tomorrow. ;) I've never had the chance to see that short story either. Guess I'd better PM Sheryl. ;)

I'm still in the middle of sorting out my video clip folder, God, I didn't realise how many clips I downloaded but never got around to watch them. :o

When I'm done I'll list the EW-related clips I have and then maybe the Faculty could pick what should go into the compilation disc.


Oscar tomorrow. *fingers crossed*
PJ and Fran are not going. Barry Osbourne with 15 LOTR crews from NZ will be there but some of them probably won't make it to the pre-party because their flight was delayed 12 hours. :eek: *hope they make it to the ceremony safely.*
Don't know if EW is gonna be there, but somehow I think Sean Astin probably will be the only cast to attend the ceremony.
A Chicago Sweep, ugh, the boringest oscar ever. :rolleyes:

Had to double post because of the message length limit. Sorry. :o

Has this been posted?
From A&F, an article from Topp Magazine. TOPP Magazine Article

New York is about as far away from Middle Earth as you can get. There are no hobbits, elves or wizards, though a grumpy waiter can remaind you of Sauroman..... But this is the place we are going to meet the worlds nicest hobbit!

-Hey! We met each other last year, right? Elijah Wood (22) jumps out of the chair when we enter. It's 4.30 in the afternoon, and Elijah has been working since 8 am. We feared that the worlds most famous hobbit would be sleepy, hungry and sick of talking with reporters. but if there is something Elijah's got, then it's energy.

-Dont you ever get tired?

-Yeah, of course. But I think it's so fun to meet new people. Besides I'm so proud of this movie, that I feel like I can talk about it for hours!

-It seems like everyone involved in this project, loved it. What was so special about it?

-Everything! We were there for so long, nearly 18 months for some of us. Then the story is so special. And not least be cause we all became such good friends! I'm sure that I will never loose contact with the other guys.

Elijah smiles so that his blue eyes sparkle. And the smile doesn't shrink, when his assistant brings him a huge ice coffee.

-The movie is a lot about friendships, and how strong we are if we stand together. How important is friendship in your life?

-Oh, it's very, very important. Both friends and family! Jobs, money, fame- it can go away in a second. Therefor it's important to have solide friendships. Friends you know will always be there for you.

-Has that changed since the first LOTR-movie came out?

-Yes and no. I still have the same friends I always had, so nothing's canged there. But I notice other people, people I dont know or not know well, can be a bit different.

Judging by looks, not much have changed about Elijah. He is still as nice and happy as the first time we met him. And in worn-out t-shirt and jeans, he doesn't really look much like a superstar.

-Has your life changed after the huge success of LOTR?

-No, not really. I dont really feel like a celebrity. I live just like I used to. I go to the store, to the movies and hang out with friends.

-Is it important to you to keep your feet on the ground?

-Oh yeah. It would have been terrible if I started to be rude and stuff, just 'cause I did a movie! But I dont think I've changed much. Maybe it's be cause I've been doing this for so long, I know how things go up and down in this buisness.

Elijah strokes his little beard (when we met him he still hadn't shaved his head). Though he is still young, there's no doubt that a few years have past since the making of LOTR.

-Could you imagine doing anything else then acting?

-No, not really. I've been doing this since I was little, and I think I'll always do something connected to it.

-Do you want to make your own movies?

-Yeah, but not yet. I just want to be an actor for now. It costs to much time and energy being a director.

-We have heard a lot about how exhausting it was making LOTR. Would you do it again?

-No! Dont misunderstand me, I'm glad I did, and I wouldn't trade it for the world. But I'm glad I didn't know just how exhausting it would be. Just being away from family and friends is hard. Also it was very hard work. The day would start 4 or 5 in the morning, and would often not end until midnight. And so it was every day exept sunday. Well, sometimes even then.

-Is there time for a girlfriend when you work so much?

-No, not now anyway. I do date from time to time, but no girlfriend.

-Many magazines wrote that you dated Franka Potente for a while?

-We have never been a couple. But it really doesn't help saying anything. People write what they want anyway. But I think she is a great girl and a great actress!

-How does it feel that the entire world suddenly is interrested in who you date?

-Hmmm...It's strange. Sometimes it feels like your privacy is being invaded. that's not a good feeling. Then it doesn't help saying anything, because people will believe what they want. But I'm not gonna complain, I just have to learn to ignore it.

-In Norway we recently saw you in The Osbournes. Do you hang around with that family a lot?

-Actually it's my sister Hannah who is a friend of Jack. But I know them too, and they are a really nice family. Not as dumb as they seem on TV. I'm a little irritated with that show. It's put together in a way that makes them all seem completly weird, which is not true. Besides it's sad that a whole generation of teenagers grow up, only knowing Ozzy as a weirdo in a TV show. Not knowing what he has done for music, all the cool stuff he has done.

-Are you in to music?

-I love music!

-Any favourites?

-Everything! Mostly I listen to rock, pop and jazz. for instance Radiohead, Beck, Miles Davies and Bjork. I have music all around me. Couldn't live without it! Bjork is from Iceland, right?

-Yes, that's right.

-Isn't that around Norway?

-Yeah, not far from it, no.

-I've never been to Scandinavia. Viggo is half danish and has told me a lot about it. I would love to go to Norway on holliday once.

But before we get to discuss Elijah's holliday plans, a woman comes in to inform us that we are 10 minutes past our time, and that Elijah has to go. But before we go, we get to hugg Elijah. And he says: Hope you enjoy the movie!


End.

Thanks Jenny!


Another translated interview posted on A&F: Dutch Magazine Interview

Elijah wood looks as if he is still 16 years old.

"Damn my babyface!"

His cute looks gave him the lead role of frodo. But Elijah Wool (who will be 22 next week) doesn't always like the fact that he looks so young.

As a child star in "The Good Son" -with Macaulay Culkin- Elijah is now starring in "The Lord Of The Rings" trilogy. He's pretty modest about it: "I don't feel like I'm more than my brother Zach and my sister Hannah. I just got lucky. I had to get used to all the attention. But the enthusiasm of the fans is great tough. And I'll thank the lord if they are female and originate from Spanish!"

However, rumor has it that you're more into males.

Maybe that's because of my friendship with Ian McKellen, Gandalf in "The Lord Of The Rings" who is openly gay. There where also rumors about my relationship with the german actress Franka Potente. We're just friends. Its not like I refuse to fall in love, it just hasn't happened to me.

In order to film the three "The Lord Of The Rings" films, you had to live away from home for almost a year and a half. How was that?

I just turned 18 when we left to New-Zealand. It was a great opportunity to become more independent. I gained allot of wisdom and I matured allot.

Didn't you miss your friends?

I didn't have allot of friends. But I made friends for life in New-Zealand. We still see each other often, after more than 2 years after the shooting of the film.

Is it true that you all got tattoos to immortalize your friendship?

Some of us, yes. Everybody chose their own tattoo. And the place where they wanted it was different for everyone. (Laughs) But I'm not gonna reveal where I got mine.

Is it true that Peter Jackson gave you the ring from the film? Or at least one of the seven that where made?

indeed, I have one. I'm verry carefull with it. The ring I'm wearing now looks like the one in the films, but I bought this one in New York. I got a text engraved in it: "If it doesn't happen now, when will it?" In hebrew. It means that you need to grab the opportunities that come along. Go for it!

And your probably getting allot of great opportunities now.

Sure. There are a couple of new films that I'm working on. I feel like making movies again. I was exhausted after New-Zealand.

Rumors has it that you had a depression.

That's right. What do you expect? I lived an extraordinarily fascinating life for 16 months, then all of a sudden I was back at home. And the worst thing was: I didn't want to leave the house! It took me several moths before I felt okay again.

You still seem to be succeeding at staying who you are. How do you do it?

That's all thanks to my mother. She has always warned me about traps in the film industry, and that I can't let the fame get to my head.

You seem to be thanking the role of Frodo mostly to your looks, don't you? (smiles) Say it: I have a babyface. And I'm not very tall. (5'6" or 167cm) I hardly look 16! I sometimes curse that babyface of mine! If people ask for my identity card every time I order a beer.

Frodo is a pretty sexless living being. Still, allot of fans are hoping to see you naked in part three of the trilogy. It is the case in the books.

You'll have to have patience until late this year. But I can asure you this: I am absolutely not sexless.


End.

Thanks Suzie!

(Panicks!!) I go away for a short while,, and when I get back there are litereally pages of interesting stuff to read, ponder and comment on? How wonderful!! :)
I'll try my best to catch up, but if theres' something I forget to comment on, please don't trout me. :o

From tg and Brunhild
...I think he's potentionally the best actor in the history of film... I'd love to hear your, or anyone's further thoughts and rationale for that. I really, really would.

Myself, I feel I don't yet know enough about acting, or good actors, or the history of film, to really judge. Beyond a general enjoyment and appreciation of going to see a good quality film and discussing it afterwards, I wasn't very interested in the intricacies of filmmaking, or acting, before FotR. What I *do* know, however, is that when I came out of the cinema after my second wiewing of FotR, I was asking myself not only the obvious :o "Who looks like that ?!?", nor "Who *sounds* like that!?! (So, I do have a slight thing for EJW's Frodo voice. I could listen to him speaking with that voice for a loooong time :rolleyes: ), but mainly "Who acts like that!?! How does he *do* it? Why is this so incredibly moving and why does it stay with you?" I started getting hold of the other EJW movies to find out more about him as an actor. That has never happened before, however much I've enjoyed a film or been moved by an actor's performance in it. EJW is truly special as an actor, but what exactly is the secret? Well, I guess that's what we have been debating over 7000- or so posts this last year...... and will continue to debate. :D

He *does* require a good script and a challenging, complex role to work with, of course. (Frodo, Mikey.....) He doesn't shine no matter what...... as a few other performances show. Coincidence would have it that TV here showed "Deep Impact" yesterday. That was the only EJW film I'd seen prior to LotR. I didn't notice his acting at all there, and I had no clue that the high school kid in DI was the one playing Frodo, even when watching FotR. But then I continue to stand by my opinion that Deep Impact diffuses a potentionally good and thought-provoking storyline into just so many soap-operaish ugh-inducing shallow subplots. All the characters inclusive of Leo seem like cardboard cutouts, and the film manages to squander a lot of acting talent in the process, given the cast it has. I didn't watch the film as it aired yesterday, but I noted that the major paper here in its TV guide called it "Awful" and "Silly", and they made no point out of EJW's role in it. Otherwise, since he is so famous here by now, they usually are very good at pointing his roles out.


LEK, I agree with Prim. We'd love to see you post over here more. :) Any sore feelings over CoE are *not* directed towards you at all!!


Blossom;- thank you for the tip regarding the clip on Elve's site. I'd tried the MTV Frodo clip earlier (it doesn't work) so I gave up on all of them, thus missing this absolute precious little gem!
I'd *love* to have a cap of that close-up of Elijah, wearing Frodo costume, sunglasses and Gandalf's pointy hat. It's a real keeper!


Meryl Marie managed to catch a Froshadowing that has hitherto gone unnoticed here! And Bridget's dad is into Froshadowings, too! I'm in awe! :)


Re: The Witness; - I have that one too. It lasts more than 8 minutes, though, doesn't it? That was the one set us going on discussing the treatment of children in the film industry, and the types of scenes they use kid actors in, and how they explain the plot to those kid actors, - some while back. That last scene there between Gary Sinise and little EJW *is* disturbing, but thankfully not as realistic and awful and drawn-out as it could have been.
"Witness" in itself is good, and dark, and with very simple means and very low-key imagery (given the subject matter) manages to delve into the darker side of a person's psyche, when dealing with a not-quite-silenced conscience in completely the worst way.


Tathar; I hope you'll continue to stick around here some still. You will be missed if you go. Like you, I think Frodo (book and film) is more interesting than EJW. Frodo's been with me for many years. So if I *had* to choose, it'd definitely be Frodo for me, too. Luckily it's not necessary to make a choice though, it's just a matter of where to post in-depth on what. Elijah's portrayal of Frodo and his acting in that role will continue to be a topic here too, for sure.

Can't you hear yourself? Don't you know who you sound like?!" Elevensies, thank you!
That one absolutely broke any tension there might have been, for me. I had to LOL heartily. You do know that as long as you're able to ask the question like that, there's no danger whatsoever? :)


Deluby: Thank you so much for re-posting all those gifs!!! http://www.thorstenkaye.com/bowing.gif Now how to choose the best of them....


Thank you for the interviews, too. TOPP is a Norwegian Teen (monthly) magazine, and I would judge that over the last year or so they've had Elijah on the front page every second issue. (The current one has him in one of those Adidas T-shirt Toronto promo shots). I had to LOL a little about the question of Iceland's location near Norway. Oh, going unnoticed is both the blessing and the curse of all small countries at the outskirts of the continents.... At least LotR and PJ has made a tremendous effort to make NZ (location and geography) well-known!

That other interview is the first I've ever seen ask EJW directly what will happen in the CU scene. Guess that question is one he'll have to learn to deflect with ease, as it's pretty sure to be asked more than once when RotK draws nearer.

Did you see that collage of Elijah costume-fitting pics that A&F has? Tiny pics, but they're sooo great. There's one of Frodo with the hood of his green cloak up....... *Wonderful!* :o :rolleyes:


And about the Oscars - what Deluby said! A Chicago Sweep, ugh, the boringest oscar ever.

((((Faculty))))


Edit: Tg, your current avatar is just so beautiful! How do you ever manage to just change away from the best of them, like that one? Oh, to get my hands on the TTT SE *now*!!

Sorry, guys. :( I've maxed on the 5 MB/day bandwidth limit at VillagePhotos. Not that it'll help, but I've deleted the Gary Sinise screencap from my account, so if anyone should look back in days to come he won't be there. Sigh. I really liked that screencap. Sinise is a very good actor, and that particular scene was a very interesting look into his character.

Guess this means I can't show off my frame-by-frame screencaps. Not to brag or anything :p but once I had a look at 'em on slideshow at home they weren't too bad, if you ignore the pic quality. :o That's what I couldn't figure out: while the VCD provided clear crisp image on screen, 'print screen' wouldn't capture the image unless the image had become blurred. Weird.

I did event-by-event screencaps of EW & GS's last scene together. Maybe I can post those. But like Maeg said, it's a disturbing scene, so maybe I shouldn't. Then again I don't have any means to post them so it's a moot point! :rolleyes:


Maeg:
"Who acts like that!?! How does he *do* it? Why is this so incredibly moving and why does it stay with you?" I started getting hold of the other EJW movies to find out more about him as an actor. That has never happened before, however much I've enjoyed a film or been moved by an actor's performance in it.

Well, I do pay more attention to actors whose performances I admire, but I certainly never bothered to really try and get hold of every obtainable movie, even if costs should be prohibitive! Those questions you asked were the exact same questions that ran through my mind after FotR, and that was why I was most excited when I discovered this thread and found other people who were just as fascinated by such questions. I've loved Frodo since I was a kid, but if it were just about Frodo, I wouldn't be here in an on-line community. After all, I'd gone more than half my life without actually talking about Frodo with anyone (we'll ignore my failed attempts to get friends interested in even reading LOTR). It was EW-as-Frodo, as well as the sheer magic of Middle Earth becoming 'real', that got me so obsessed that I needed to share.

He *does* require a good script and a challenging, complex role to work with, of course.

That's true for every actor. The truly great actors are the ones who keep on working and stretching themselves and diversifying, and who let those bad decisions slide and if they do excellent work overall, audiences forgive the turkeys. ;) EW is on the right course, looks like.

But also important, is that EW *is* a terrific actor. We're lucky to be able to look back and see that the talent has always been there, and we could see him develop that talent as he grew up. Having lurked among fans of TV actors who existed strictly as the characters without much range beyond that, I can tell you that if EW isn't who he is, it'd have been way harder to talk about enough things to reach 100 pages again!. :D


Btw, Maeg ... what on earth are you talking about? Choose the gifs? What's there to choose? Get all of them!!! ;)


Thanks so much, deluby. :k I'm pretty sure I have them all, but it never hurts to be sure. The beforeMoria gifs are new? HoodedFrodo. You've really made my day, dear. :) Thanks for the interviews too. Anyone else feel her skin crawl at the idea that EW might literally say ... my babyface? LOL!

Noticed you've got a cool new avatar too, deluby. And I absolutely love tg's Frodo today. :cool:


{{{Elevensies}}} :)


Also been meaning to say how much I love your sig, Bridget. I'd match that one with ... 'Hope is a good thing, maybe the best of things. And no good thing ever dies.' {{{Bridget}}}


posting to add that I have a seminar thingy to attend this week and will likely be scarce for the next few days.

and just reposting this pic for the fun of it. ;)

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/behind03/behind030.jpg

:o I just *knew* I'd forget something important. I'm sorry!
Congratulations on the screencapping, ainon! I thought the 2 you posted looked very viewable, despite the ever so slight blurriness. And I'm certain people would like to see a few more, if you find a place to host them. :)

About choosing the gifs..... Well, my space on the computer is more or less filled up, and most of it's LotR stuff already. I need more computer capacity! (Guess that's the ever-despairing cry of all EJW/LotR/Frodo fans....)

Maeglian's post pushed me to consider what else can be important for a successful application of EJW's secret acting weaponry.

A good director can be helpful ;). Going one step further, I've taken a look at the "more remarkable" cinematographers from EJW's non-LOTR films.

The most reknowned one is Janusz Kaminski who filmed--as you might have guessed--Huck Finn! Kaminski went on to work with Spielberg on a lot of films winning two Oscars (for Schindler's List and Saving Private Ryan).

North was filmed by Adam Greenberg who did the imaginative cinematography for the Terminators.
Flipper had Bill Butler (Jaws :D, Grease, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest).
Forever Young benefitted from the work of Russell Boyd (a longtime collaborator of the outstanding Australian director Peter Weir, to say nothing of Crocodile Dundee :p).

The Ice Storm was filmed by Frederick Elmes who worked with David Lynch on Blue Velvet.
Eternal Sunshine has got another "experimental" cinematographer, Ellen Kuras (I Shot Andy Warhol and Blow with Johnny Depp).

No need for comments, methinks. ;)

Originally posted by Maeglian
I'd love to hear your, or anyone's further thoughts and rationale for that. I really, really would.
...but mainly "Who acts like that!?! How does he *do* it? Why is this so incredibly moving and why does it stay with you?" I started getting hold of the other EJW movies to find out more about him as an actor. That has never happened before, however much I've enjoyed a film or been moved by an actor's performance in it. EJW is truly special as an actor, but what exactly is the secret? Well, I guess that's what we have been debating over 7000- or so posts this last year...... and will continue to debate. :D
Not only a secret but a mystery--no matter how much we learn there's always more (in fact, his acting's probably improving faster than we can figure it out)!

The "How does he *do* it?" question is the central one for me, too (not that I have an answer!).

How does he change his facial expressions in ways that an expert in the field says are impossible to do consciously?

How does he have other physical reactions while acting that should only occur in the real situation (e.g., his body moving the way it does when he's shot in the back in Huck Finn--it should need an actual impact to do that--shouldn't it)?

How does he stay in character every moment (as seen in screencaps)--even while changing expressions, which is the instant many (most?) actors will slip--yet jump in and out of character at will?

How does he portray--perfectly, deeply, and movingly--emotions that he's never personally been even close to in real life (from the numb void after Moria to the overwhelming emotion of touching his son for the first time)?

How does he invariably "hit" the right emotional level--from over-the-top to so subtle it's almost unnoticeable?

How does he act a character's blend of emotions that's so complex--and yet so right--that you discover something different in it each time you watch it?

And those last three--regarding how he portrays emotions--are true verbally as well as visually. We've talked about some of his "one-liners" that make mundane sentences something you remember long afterward: "They're here." "Hello." [That one--and how mundane can you get?--still makes me cry after two years and who-knows-how-many hearings.] "I have to go back for Sarah." [Maeg--IMHO one of the scattered worthwhile moments in Deep Impact :) .]

It's those kinds of things that make me say Elijah's potentially the best actor in the history of film (specifically film, which is what his style is custom-made for). I don't "go to the movies" often, but I've watched a lot of movies, both old and new, and I've never seen another actor with these abilities. The question, of course, is what he'll do with this giftedness. He's 22, which is young for a male actor, and still seems vitally interested in the art of acting. I hope I'm still buying his movies--and still watching him get better and better--many years from now.

But those are questions, not answers. So, IMHO, we've got a lot more pages ahead of us :) . If I were going to give my own "guess" on at least some of his ability, it would go back to our discussion of how he pays attention to other people and how easily he "reads" their emotions--seemingly without realizing he's doing anything unusual. IMVVHO, this is connected to his personality, which is the opposite of the stereotypical self-conscious and self-centered celebrity.

----And IMHO Brunhild makes a good point about the cinematography, too. It's one of the positive things about Ash Wednesday, and the director's commentary has some interesting points on the cinematography and lighting for anyone interested in that. I've got some shots from Elijah's first scene in that movie that I may find a way to post in the future (flashback to 3 years earlier--I posted one pic from it when someone asked about him wearing ashes in the movie, and used another for an avatar). That scene has some unusual cinematography and editing that I think work well.

I wonder if the way Elijah seems to "combine" well with experimental cinematography has anything to do with his penchant for modeling. Even though he hasn't been "just" a model since he was 7 or 8 years old, he doesn't seem to have ever completely abandoned it. IMHO, he has an affinity for those photo shoots (even the "creepy" ones ;) ) that very few actors have.

Edit: Tg, your current avatar is just so beautiful! How do you ever manage to just change away from the best of them, like that one? Oh, to get my hands on the TTT SE *now*!!
:) The main aid is having a couple dozen waiting in the wings that I really want to use :) . When I started this exercise, I thought I'd be "rotating" avatars, not using a new one each day, but so far I've only repeated for specific reasons, and there's no shortage yet. (I'm still keeping the "repeat" option open, though, except for any that someone wants to use permanently, which is still an open offer for any avatar that I've used--except, at this point, for anime Frodo, who I'm selfishly claiming for myself ;) .)

Sometimes, though, I find myself squeezing in time to go online just to change the avatar, since I've tended to consider "Frodo-of-the-Day" to be a promise. I've been trying to come up with a reworded title to allow me to slip by when made necessary by RL :p . When there's a day it doesn't change, just know that it's because I'm short of time, not avatars ;) .

---And, to give credit where it's due, any TTT avatar I use is from a pic I've copied from this thread. So :k to those who've been posting those treasures.

Originally posted by tgshaw
(I'm still keeping the "repeat" option open, though, except for any that someone wants to use permanently, which is still an open offer for any avatar that I've used--except, at this point, for anime Frodo, who I'm selfishly claiming for myself ;) .)

I wish you'd do anime Frodo again - I never got to see it. :(


Originally posted by tgshaw
(
Sometimes, though, I find myself squeezing in time to go online just to change the avatar, since I've tended to consider "Frodo-of-the-Day" to be a promise. I've been trying to come up with a reworded title to allow me to slip by when made necessary by RL :p .

Gotta run, but...

How about "Frodo kalidescope" (spelling, ack!) or "Provider of the Frodo slide show"? - the second one would obliquely refer to your site as well.

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm


I wish you'd do anime Frodo again - I never got to see it. :(

Okay--I'll be offline now until tonight, but then I'll put anime Frodo up again for tomorrow (Monday), just for Sheryl ;) . Just keep in mind that he was a complete accident, which I think is one reason I like him :) .

(I'll keep your title suggestions in mind :) .)

Just a quick post to say:

deluby - Did I ever tell you you're an angel? Well, you ARE an angel. Thanks for taking time to post those wonderful gifs again. They are now safely on my hard-drive. Thanks again and:k

Tg - Count me in for the screencapping of 'The Good Son.' Shouldn't be too long before I can order both 'TGS' and 'Huck Finn,' and it would be a pleasure to be able to produce something useful for The Faculty! 'How does he do it,' must be the question all of us here have asked ourselves countless times. I have no idea - but Elijah is a fascinating subject to study!

Maeg - Don't know if it's possible to capture stills of those clips from Elve's site, but I'll try for the one of EW in shades and Gandalf's hat. :)

I will be taping The Oscars just in case EW shows up - but if he's still in NY it seems unlikely. Good luck to TTT for Best Picture, but I won't hold my breath! Next year... next year... next year...

Hi folks!

Just a quick post. I had a great weekend in Dublin with EE and some other KDers/CoEers!

Ooh, Oscars tonight. I'm not going to be watching it though, it was a waste of time the last time round :rolleyes: I wonder if EW will be there? There seems to be a lot of people who aren't attending. There's not been many reports of EW around lately!

Thanks to everyone for their posts and stuff, interesting reading!

Hugs to everyone, especially at the moment, :k

{{{Faculty}}}

...I think he's potentionally the best actor in the history of film...

I agree. Whatever he has he's got that indefinable "it" that makes an actor stand out.
I've tried over and over to think what other actors can even be compared to him and there really is no one. And that's an amazing thing! Elijah is a complete original.

Originally posted by deluby
Don't know if EW is gonna be there, but somehow I think Sean Astin probably will be the only cast to attend the ceremony.

Dom’s around deluby, and Billy was just up in Canada and is probably hovering. And I hear Craig Parker (Haldir) is going to try and make it (amongst others). Perhaps EW will try to make an effort to get there as well since he has been so scarce. I didn’t like the fact that the seating is so limited at this new place (recalling last year), but with the war there might be more seats available. Hope there’s nothing going on like that next year when LOTR does come up for the gold. :(


Originally posted by tgshaw
Okay--I'll be offline now until tonight, but then I'll put anime Frodo up again for tomorrow (Monday), just for Sheryl ;) . Just keep in mind that he was a complete accident, which I think is one reason I like him :) .

Ooo, anime Frodo. :) Ezzie raises her hand too.

If anybody is planning to watch the Oscars, could you post the results of the awards TTT is nominated for in the Awards thread in the Trilogy forum (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1839) ? I don't get any tv stations, and I doubt that the technical awards will get mentioned much of anywhere. (Well, eventually on TORN, but the staffers might be too busy with their own party to keep the web site updated.) I don't expect TTT to win Best Picture, and it wasn't even nominated for any of the big awards, so I figure it will be hard to find out how it did even tomorrow morning.

Last year I sat in imladris chat until FotR lost Adapted Screenplay, but I think I might go to bed before the darn thing even starts this year. (And I'm only one time zone away from the action! But I'm sleepy and pregnant and have to get up early in the morning, so I've got an excuse...)

Mel

Originally posted by ainon
The beforeMoria gifs are new? HoodedFrodo. :eek: Ainon, you know my gifs better than I do. Even I couldn't remember if I had posted that one before or not. :rolleyes: :o Or am I being tracked?http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/scared.gif:D
Btw, the "Witness" screencap you posted yesterday showed up for me today. Thank you! The picture is not that blurry at all. :k

Brunhild--great point about cinematography! I didn't know Janusz Kaminski worked on Huck Finn. He and Spielberg make a great cinematographer-director team. I loved the cinematography in Minority Report.


Posted by esmeraldabrandybuck
Dom’s around deluby, and Billy was just up in Canada and is probably hovering. And I hear Craig Parker (Haldir) is going to try and make it (amongst others). Oh yeah that's right, and I think I forgot Andy Serkis too. :o He's gotta be there when the Visual effect team picks up the award. I kinda think EW probably is not interested in attending the ceremony since he said it was so long that he almost fell asleep last year. :p


I'll be watching the oscar while working on my computer, so I'll post the result in TTT forum. :)posted by Mel
But I'm sleepy and pregnant and have to get up early in the morning, so I've got an excuse...Pregnant, Mel? Did I miss it when you broke the news? Anyways, Congratulations!!!:k :cool:

---------
We just won visual effect oscar. Saw Sean Astin there but no sight of Elijah.

Don't have much to say, except to add my thanks to deluby for reposting the gifs :cool: . And, Blossom, I'm sure you'll be getting requests for a lot of scenes from The Good Son (I've already got a list of Froshadowings for you ;) ) Although I'm envious, I was just so glad to find out it was available anywhere on a disk!

BTW--I'd forgotten about this until TGS came up--Macauley Culkin is going to be in an episode of "Will and Grace" later this year, playing a divorce attorney. I saw an interview with him a couple of years ago, when he said he was starting his acting career completely over from scratch, beginning with small stage plays (which he was doing at the time of the interview). He said he was going to do it the way he thought was best, this time. I really do wish him well--poor kid didn't have much of a chance, first time around :( .

As far as computer memory--When I got my current computer a couple of years back, I got one with a DVD drive mainly because I knew I'd want one for the LotR movies. I also got one with a CD-R drive for a completely different purpose! But it sure comes in handy for all the lovely things there are to store--I'd never make it with just my hard drive :p !

Yeah Sean is at the Oscars but no Elijah. I miss seeing new pics of the little guy. Where is he? I guess he's still filming Sunshine and possibly Thumbsucker. Sigh....

Edit- OK...Just found out... For some reason he was spotted at some concerts in Austin Texas this week. Austin Texas? Yeah that's what I said. Does anyone know if that is where Thumbsucker is filming? Sounds like it's time for another web search about filming locations.

Well the oscar is over, some surprises towards the end but Chicago still got best pic and robbed 3 of TTT's little golden baby. :mad: We got visual effects, sound editing but lost sound, art direction and film editing. And Gangs of New York goes home empty handed. The big surprise for me was Adrien Brody for Best Actor and Roman Polanski for Best Director. Now Adrien Brody becomes the youngest best actor winner and the first under 30 to win best actor(he's 29). Hope the trend continues next year. ;) Go Elijah, you can break the record!:cool:

Hello, colleagues. I am on the road, far from home, and not able to post very frequently, but I have been reading your comments and queries, and, when possible, "studying" the pictures and gifs (thank you, deluby!). Coming here is like coming home; it helps tremendously with the homesickness.

Hope you are feeling well, Mel. Take care of yourself!

Just found out what the oscar results were. Since TTT was nominated mostly in technical categories, it stood little chance at Best Picture. I am glad it won the 2 oscars it did; it will help financially and allow PJ to have that much more leeway in finalizing RoTK. Other results were fairly predictable, except for the surprising strength of The Pianist.

As I am wandering the wilds with my laptop, I have been able to play my copy of FoTR fairly :o often; I am still so awed by the acting in this movie! Now my attention is usually riveted on a certain ring-bearing hobbit, but given the leisure to study the film more carefully, I have allowed my eye to wander to the other performances. My god, Ian McKellan was awesome in that film.

But on topic, and in response to what you all have been saying; neither can I figure out just *how* Elijah Wood can do what he does... The scene on the Dimrill Dale STILL brings tears to my eyes, after more viewings than I can count. Could he be the best actor ever? I doubt he would say so, but he is in a league with the best of them.

And what could he possibly be doing in Austin, Hobmom? Thumbsucker was slated to be shot in Portland. But stranger things have happened than having the location of a film changed...

Yasas! for now...

What's he doing in Austin? That seems to be the big question of the day. I'm just glad we finally found out where he's been.

Awhile back it was being said that Portland was out as the location for Thumbsucker so maybe they chose Austin instead. It WAS supposed to be filming this month. Then again Elijah may just be wandering around the country aimlessly going to concerts along the way. But I think he's probably working.

Firstly, apologies for going OT - I have subscribed to Mel's page at the Green Dragon and will be hoping over there (probably to lurk at first :)) and will try to be good in this thread from now on.

I do admit to prefering Frodo to EJW, but I'm glad I don't have to choose.

Tathar, please don't stay away.

And as I've nothing significant to add, I'll just wave across to Luthea :k and say again how much I enjoyed meeting you. I'm still up for a Faculty meet some day (like a dog with a bone, amn't I? :D)

Deluby, thanks so much for reposting links to your gifs! I grabbed all of them that I did not already have - thank goodness for huge hard drives!!! Thank you, thank you, thank you, for all your work in creating them, and for sharing them so generously! :k :k

I miss seeing new pics of the little guy
TorN is reporting that pick-up shots will begin in a few weeks - I wonder if EW has not been seen in public a lot in the last while because he is changing his appearance for the third movie - losing weight, perhaps, to better portray Frodo's journey through Mordor? (Though he doesn't have a lot to lose!) Seeing Sean at the Oscars last night made me wonder about this, as he doesn't seem to have put back ON the weight he had to portray Sam.

I'm not sure whether they can do this for continuity purposes, as the actors would have to be close to the weights they were when the rest of the scenes were shot several years ago...

RE: EJW in Austin--might not be a bad idea to keep one eye on AICN. ;) --- BTW, does anyone know if "Sunshine" has finished shooting?

(((peaceweaver)))

Tg is right; Austin is the HQ for Harry Knowles. Isn't that where they filmed The Faculty, and Harry had his bright Elijah-you-would-be-perfect-for-Frodo-you-should-audition idea?

Peaceweaver, at CoE, someone (grown man, not a squealing teen) said he decided to watch FotR and "concentrate just on Legolas -- what a treat." He figured you could watch the movie 9 or 10 times just to focus on one actor each. I believe it.

I found this year's Oscars to be watchable only on mute, flipping on the sound only when somebody opened an envelope. Last year they showed interesting stuff like costume sketches and behind-the scenes make-up and cinematographer's notes; i.e. why somebody was nominated. This year all they did was honor fellow actors -- I mean, more than usual. :rolleyes: I'm glad to see that New Line sent the bare minimum contingent, just the nominees and Sean Astin, who's only a cab ride away.

The weekend before last I was flipping channels in the hotel and was shocked to see Oliver Twist on. I found I could not abide Elijah's Artful Dodger. :eek: I think it's because I felt that AD really was just a mischievous Frodo -- same vocal intonations and facial expressions (repetoire theory again :p), just a different hairstyle. It went beyond Froshadowing, to the point where I wondered if Elijah had come down with the "He's always just Harrison Ford" syndrome. But then, I only half-watched it. I don't have the psychological strength to analyze it. I think a lot of the fault lies with the dialogue. You could see there were times when Elijah had trouble spitting out lines that he should never have had to say -- something about fine personnel in prison?

Erendis, you're right - the Artful Dodger is pre-quest Frodo as seen drinking with the Gaffer et al. in the Green Dragon. Much as I like the Green Dragon scene because of Billy and Dom's singing and Sam's bashful flirting with Rosie, I wish they'd cut the scene before "young mr. Frodo here; - he's cracking." Frodo isn't Frodo there. He's the Dodger. Takes me right out of LotR for a tiny instant every time I see it.

I don't think the Artful Dodger is a bad role from Elijah, though (I even find the accent endearing). Seeing him up against the boy in the lead role really showcases what a wonderful kid actor Elijah was. His acting overshadows the "Oliver " kid completely and utterly. Imagine *EJW* (some years younger) and in that scene with Bill Sykes at the end. *That* would have been truly angsty and filled with tension instead of just...... meh.

Also I'll give Elijah MANY points for being the first actor *ever* that I've seen manage to carry off a role where he has to wear one of those top hat thingies of that period, without looking like a complete moron. Those hats normally kill a character, any character, for me. Which tends to affect my enjoyment of film versions of "Les miserables". :( And I remember Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt in those hats in "Interview with the vampire"..... :eek:

------------------
Based on one of the questions in the second interview Deluby posted above, there's been speculation in the Harem that CU may involve Sam having very great difficulty or nearly refusing to give up the Ring, or even have him threatening Frodo...... Kind of an Osgiliath fight scene reversal, in order to clearly show the Stronger!Movie!Ring's effect on Sam and crank up the tension between the two. I *really* like that theory. The Osgiliath fight was filmed in the pick-ups in 2002, IIRC. So that would probably mean........ if they are doing a corresponding type of scene for CU....... that the pick-ups for RotK that start filming in a few weeks could actually send Elijah and Sean back to the tower to crank up the action?!!

I love speculating. I planned not to, this time around, but it's just too much fun. :o

He figured you could watch the movie 9 or 10 times just to focus on one actor each. Yes, I've done that. Only...... I ended up watching the *same* actor every time. :D :rolleyes:

I think Elijah's accent as the Artful Dodger is absolutely AWFUL - it makes Dick Van Dyke sound good. I'm afraid that put me off. I rather liked Oliver himself, though - more so than Mark Lester's portrayal, actually - and I liked the film itself. Fagin, too, was good. In fact, so was most of the cast! Great setting.

But Elijah acts beautifully elsewhere. :) And I still say his "North" is a virtuoso performance.

well, its no secret to the other Faculty member here that i liked Wood's Dodger (and yes that's speaking as a musical-Oliver "purist" ;)). i like the repertoire between him and Dreyfus who played Fagin (although admitedly i like the original Fagin better)

Originally posted by Maeglian
I wish they'd cut the scene before "young mr. Frodo here; - he's cracking."Frodo isn't Frodo there. He's the Dodger.
but then its no secret that Frodo has a naughty streak (book Frodo anyway). truth to be told i welcomed seeing that other facet of Frodo's personality. he's not always a meek lamb, unlike what the film is trying to portray-- an angel that can do no wrong. Frodo has human strengths as well as weakneses. it really irks me when films try to "whitewash" a character to make him appear more pleasing to the audience. it takes away what is believable about him.

oh crap. i broke my silence about Frodo. well that's the last you'll hear from me ;)

Oliver Twist isn't one of my favorite EW movies, and much of that has to do with the Artful Dodger, but nothing I "blame" Elijah for. The character himself is "Disneyfied," in that he's a combination of Dickens's original Dodger (who's about the same age as Oliver and is resolutely and proudly criminal to the end) with another character in the book (who's older than Oliver and who goes straight at the end of the book), and IMHO the two never quite mesh in the movie--The movie Dodger seems like such a "nice" criminal that I just kept wondering why he didn't go straight, but I think a lot of that has to do with qualities brought in from the other character.

And, uh, I have to say Elijah's accent is... um... not the greatest :o . But, in a way, I don't blame him for that, either. If I've done my math right, he was about 15 when he made this movie; although I think Ash Wednesday gave some evidence that he's starting to outgrow his director dependence, he certainly hadn't done that at 15, and IMVHO there are a few clues (especially in the performances of the younger actors) that the directing wasn't very strong in Oliver Twist. In an interview after making the movie, Elijah said that it was "easy" to do the accent. When I compare that to his embarrassment at getting caught on camera practicing his accent for LotR, my thought is that he was allowed to "get by" in Oliver Twist--evidently no one told him there was anything wrong with his accent--something he wasn't allowed to do for LotR (thank goodness!).

----OTOH, I don't mind "Green Dragon" Frodo. I'm not sure that he's 100% movie-Frodo, but I think the non-Frodo pieces are more "Elijah" than "Dodger" (or, as LEK said, a bit of book-Frodo, who I also think pops out a bit in the "hiding from the SBs" scene: "Bilbo, have you been into the gaffer's home brew?"). And, while some people have objected to the two classes mingling so closely, I think it's interesting that the young gentry are singing and dancing in one part of the pub, while the "working class" is sitting at a table in another part. (And Frodo bringing the gaffer a mug just seems high-spirited to me, not subservient.) The difference from the book that I notice the most (just because I get a laugh out of it in the book) is having Sam and the gaffer together. The book is very specific that Sam hangs out at the Green Dragon while the gaffer goes to the Ivy Bush--I think it's a bit humorous (as well as saying something about the characters) that Tolkien makes it so clear that father and son don't do their socializing in the same place :D .

well that's the last you'll hear from me ;) That wink at the end *does* mean that you are joking, right? :)

I should have expressed myself a bit more clearly, I suppose. I like to see Frodo the young happy rascal, and I *sure* wouldn't want the film to portray Frodo as meek, or serious, or tragic from the very beginning to the end. :eek: I enjoy the funky chicken dance, and his dancing around that Green Dragon table, and the glint in the eye as he's trying to weedle information out of Gandalf..... But I still don't like that little "Cheers" moment. I just have to blame it all on Elijah's normally so stellar acting. As a rule, each character he portrays is completely distinct. But in the "Cheers" moment in the Green Dragon, - that's not happy carefree Frodo, but someone else. Maybe it's just Elijah himself shining through. But IMO he *is* out of character for one tiny moment.

And that one scene was an opportunity they had, and missed, to hint gently at the class distinctions, too. Again, they could have done so if they'd cut the scene before "young Mr. Frodo here; - he's cracking" - because that would have shown Frodo having fun at one separate table with his gentry cousins, not drinking with the gaffer and his companions. As you say, tg, I don't think him serving beer is in any way subservient, but it manages to blur a small point they could have made there.

We're very fortunate when tiny, little details like that is what there possibly is to complain about in a 3,5 hour film during which Elijah is visible almost all the time!


The accent in Oliver Twist: One of the few benefits of not being a native English speaker; - I can't distinguish a fake cockney accent from the real thing at all. So although even I can on occasion hear that EJW's accent is not just fake, but *horribly* fake, I still think it's cute. :)

Entertainment Weekly came in the mail today, and provided an explanation why Elijah was in Austin: the South by Southwest Music Festival was held March 12-16. Austin is a music town anyway, and a festival showcasing up-and-coming musicians of all types must have been irresistible to a music geek. Many groups and artists who went on to major fame and fortune have played at this annual event. I'm sure Elwood was in his element there!

Now it's harder to explain what would make him miss an opportunity to get together with his hobbit pals at the Oscars last night. I didn't watch any before, during or after TV coverage of it--sort of a personal boycott due to the many snubs TTT received (NO Director, NO Costumes, NO Score, NO acting nominations, etc). Boy would I have been mad at myself if EJW had showed up!

I've been reading the YoungHappyCarefreeFrolijah discussion with interest. The very few not-quite-right moments in Elijah's performance so far have all been during this all-too-brief phase of the character's journey: His kinda fake laugh when he meets up with Gandalf; his laugh at Sam after he's pushed him into dancing with Rosie; the 'Cheers' moment at the Green Dragon. It's been noted (often) here that Elijah does angst better than happy, but in LOTR at least, there is also the fact that this Happy phase is so short. He just didn't have the chance to get into Frodo's head while he was still carefree, given that there were all of three Innocent Carefree Frodo scenes altogether. :rolleyes: :(

Thanks for the hugs, colleagues. :k to all!

It is March 25. Catholics celebrate the day of the Annunciation to Mary today, and in dogmatic terms, the beginning of the new era, under grace. Certainly Professor Tolkien wanted to suggest a similar shift with the destruction of the Ring today. Just think nine months from now, we will be able to watch EJW's Frodo at Mount Doom. I don't think I will be able to endure it. :(

So, Goldie, I sure hope that Elwood is having a good time hanging out in Austin. The man has been so busy, and now reshoots for RoTK are coming up! He deserves a break to indulge his love of music.

Got to come home a bit early today so managed to catch up. Thanks, all, for the EW & Oscar news updates. There's a repeat of the Oscar telecast tonight; now I know I needn't bother with that. Better to be here, instead. :)

And congratulations, mel! :k And a hug for peaceweaver {{{{pw}}}} :k


About ArtfulDodgerFrodo ;) -- I don't know if I could ever call that out-of-character, even if it is something that jumps out at me each time too because it is one of the strongest Froshadowings we've had. I like that scene. Shows us that Frodo can have fun with his buddies, and then hop over to where the servants are hanging out, and he absolutely doesn't care what that looks like: that he's hanging out with the lower class. ;) To get back to EW though, yeah, I guess it's an example for the repertoire theory, maybe. After all, just how many ways can there be to play a cheeky, mischievous English lad having fun? :D What EW did with the early Shire scenes does get the point across, IMHO - that Frodo's life is one of simple carefree joy, where he's free to do whatever he chooses, be it to read a book under a tree, to ride with the visiting wizard, or hang out with whomever he wishes. But I guess I'm fine with the fact that once EW's convinced me that Frodo's a happy chap, the story needs to get going ASAP. The Shire is beautiful, and while I personally don't think I would tire of more happyFrodo, there's also such a thing as too much. :D

Maeg, I agree with you about Artful Dodger's accent. Besides, I could understand every word he was saying. ;) There're English movies with English accents that I have to strain to understand. The 'generic' American accent is what I'm most used to hearing.

Another couple of random caps from 'The Witness'. (if you can't see them, then that means I've maxed out at VillagePhotos). Till more people have watched the story, I suppose I should keep this spoiler-free, other than to hint that this is the first EW-GS 'confrontation'.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1913991.jpg

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1914001.jpg





Oh, warofthering.net has this little snippet about EW:

Missing Hobbit Found

Frodo lives: Elijah Wood camped out at Emo's, taking in Burnt by the Sun and
Mastodon one night, Mudhoney and Nebula the next......

source www.austinchronicle.com


Plus another brief look at adapting LotR from book to movie:Script Magic (http://www.newsday.com/features/printedition/ny-ffmov3181440mar23,0,6853874.story?coll=ny%2Dfeatures%2Dprint)

{{{Faculty}}}


ps. Here's the thing about missing days at the Faculty. I missed tg's replay of 'Anime Frodo'. I *love* that one! I'm real impressed with today's avatar. Never occurred to me that that one would make a good avatar, but it does! Real nice. :)

Originally posted by peaceweaver
It is March 25. Catholics celebrate the day of the Annunciation to Mary today, and in dogmatic terms, the beginning of the new era, under grace. Certainly Professor Tolkien wanted to suggest a similar shift with the destruction of the Ring today. Just think nine months from now, we will be able to watch EJW's Frodo at Mount Doom. I don't think I will be able to endure it. :(

One useful thing I learned from the more "scholarly" Tolkien email list I'm on (which I've been ignoring lately for lack of time and because all a lot of them can do is complain about the movies :rolleyes: ) is that in early Europe--before different areas got their calendars "synchronized"--March 25 was different things in different places. I think the feast of the Annunciation was pretty general (nine months before Christmas, of course, so the logical date for Christ's conception), but some places also marked it as the date of Christ's crucifixion while other places considered it the date of his resurrection. Some communities also had a tradition that said it was the date Adam and Eve were "thrown out" of the Garden of Eden (which, if looked at symbolically--which is how people at that time would have looked at it--would be perfect imagery to join with the Annunciation, from humans separating themselves from God to God's act of reuniting with them).

The only thing that makes all that important is that Tolkien, being who he was, would have known all of it. So by picking March 25 as the date for the destruction of the Ring, he's using a date that could really embody the entire Christian story of sin and salvation--or any particular piece of it. And, I just have to add ;) , it follows his practice of not making anything clear-cut enough to easily be made into an allegory. (IIRC, it was also the beginning of the year in some places, which is interesting considering that everyone but the hobbits switched their new year to that date because of the destruction of the Ring.)

(It also gives us that handy little marker of exactly three months from the Fellowship setting out from Rivendell on December 25 to the destruction of the Ring on March 25.)

----I learned all that a year ago; maybe I should check in and see if they're talking about it again today :p .

------And I can think of no way to bring this on topic except to wish Elijah and everyone else a Happy Destruction of the Ring Day :k !

Edit:

from ainon:
ps. Here's the thing about missing days at the Faculty. I missed tg's replay of 'Anime Frodo'. I *love* that one!
Awww... I'll bring him back again. :)

I'm real impressed with today's avatar. Never occurred to me that that one would make a good avatar, but it does! Real nice.
Well, hope you'll be around for Wed., Thurs., and Fri.--the "to be continued" in the "location" is there for a reason ;) . [That's one reason I like changing avatars--I can look at one like today's and say, "Well, it's not my favorite, but I can still put it up for a day and have a bit of fun with it." :) ]

I adore YoungHappyFrodo in the movie, mostly because they form such a poignant backdrop to the rest of the story. If those scenes don't ring true for some folks, it may not be that Elijah does angst better than happy, but because there is so little to work with from the original material to build this part of the character.

Tolkien shows us so very little of pre-Quest Frodo, and we know virtually nothing about his childhood, his relationship with Bilbo, what it meant to him for Bilbo to leave, what it was like to be Master of Bag End, etc. (probably explains why pre-Quest Frodo features in so many fanfics!). PJ and Elijah pretty much had to start from scratch when depicting a more carefree Frodo...and because those scenes are so brief, they probably didn't develop them as intricately as some others.

Happy New Year/Cormare/Annunciation, etc.!

Originally posted by Eldalieva
I adore YoungHappyFrodo in the movie, mostly because they form such a poignant backdrop to the rest of the story. If those scenes don't ring true for some folks, it may not be that Elijah does angst better than happy, but because there is so little to work with from the original material to build this part of the character.


EW seems totally Artful Dodger there for me, but I wonder if it isn't because he doesn't fit with my interpretation of the character there rather than because he isn't doing a good job playing cheerful Frodo. I've always thought it suspicious that he was alone when caught by Farmer Maggot and thrashed - that's the sort of raid boys tend to run together. Half the fun of it is daring each other to do it, and terrorizing each other with "I hear him coming!" sort of stuff while you're there. :D So I always wondered if Frodo was either a very solitary child, who went there alone because he wanted the mushrooms, not the event, or because he had something to prove, or just because no one wanted to go with him.

EW's performance there doesn't really violate my concept of Frodo as a rather solitary, dreamy child - because I also saw him as "finding his place" when taken in with Bilbo. I think part of the reason he's so close to Merry is that he never had to "prove himself" there - by the very fact of Frodo being older Merry would accept him as the automatic leader, and so they'd settle into a comfortable coexistance without having to do the little dance for hierarchy a lot of boys go through. But it may be that boys his own age tended to "not get him", because on the one hand his strength is an inner strength they might not recognize, while OTOH he wouldn't compromise on anything that was important to him - he strikes me as the type who, as a very young one, would stubbornly insist that "thus and such is real" in the face of skepticism, and refuse to give on things others viewed as trivialities.

I doubt the Gaffer was the first to think Frodo was "crackin'". ;) I agree with ainon that Frodo probably wouldn't sweat social class in that situation - what kills me about that scene in terms of book canon is that, IIRC, the Gaffer was always giving Sam grief about keeping his place - then we see him sitting there with Frodo serving him? I don't think so. ;) Had to get my head around that violation of book canon before accepting that scene, I suppose.

So I didn't see Frodo as being that outgoing - but in the right environment kids like that do get pretty rowdy, and I don't always see the Artful Dodger there any more. But the first time through I sure did! And I think a lot of EW fans who'd seen Oliver would, especially if the scene didn't seem true to "their" Frodo. I think with book adaptations a lot of actors get grief for "bad acting" when their only crime is not interpreting the character as the reader did.

I'll join Lady E-K in saying I liked EW's Artful Dodger, primarily because of his relationship with Fagin, but also that scene where he betrays Nancy and Oliver, just lovely. Sheryl sighs happily at the memory. I really need to purchase that. Hubby didn't get me anything EW for my birthday - all LOTR stuff. Not that I'm complaining, but I think I'm going to have to break down and cough up some of my own cash for some EW something soon.

Thanks for that info on "Ring Day," peaceweaver and tg. Most of that was new to me (or stuff I'd totally forgotten :rolleyes: ).

So ainon provided the evidence to support Goldie's deduction? Nice teamwork!

Anime Frodo. :cool: I saved him with the last page. Mega :cool:

Sheryl

Hmmm... I might have to disagree with Sheryl on something :eek: :eek: --

Farmer Maggot said Frodo was "one of the worst young rascals of Buckland." So I'm not sure he was all that innocent. Bad as it is to think of Frodo getting thrashed, IMHO Maggot doesn't seem like someone who'd do that to a kid (which Frodo would have been considered, right up to the time he left Buckland) the first time he saw him trespassing, so I'd guess Frodo got away with a few mushrooms before that incident. And I've always figured he was the only one who got caught during that raid, not that he was necessarily the only one on it.

That doesn't mean he couldn't have been a dreamer, or otherwise more interior than some kids. In fact--leaving the Artful Dodger aside for a minute--I think of him rather like EW's Huck Finn (maybe that's part of the reason I saw young Frodo in him right away :) ). Movie-Huck (more than book-Huck) could certainly be a rascal and get himself into all kinds of trouble. But if you watch him during the fishing scene, or the "one-take" scene--or a few others that we haven't given titles to (yet ;) )--he's thoughtful, reflective, sensitive, and loyal. If anyone other than Elijah had been in the role, I doubt if we would have gotten much of a sense of that interior side--although it's very strong in book-Huck. I don't think those two sides of Huck's personality are incompatible, and I don't think they'd have to be in Frodo, either.

YoungHappyFrodo is the same age book-Frodo was at The Party, when he enjoyed Bilbo's joke and some of his younger cousins called him "jolly old Frodo." Of course, he did get tired of the crowd eventually and slip away. IMHO, we see both sides of his personality there, too. But the missing 17 years in the movie mean we never do see Frodo as "the" Mr. Baggins of Bag End, or as a "well-spoken gentlehobbit."

---------

And, of course, I had to pull the book out of the drawer as soon as my boss left, to check on the "cracked" conversation. It takes place close to the end of those 17 years, and it's at the Green Dragon--not the Ivy Bush--so the Gaffer's not even there (besides, the Gaffer's pro-Baggins and defends Bilbo and Frodo when we listen in earlier at the Ivy Bush). It's Ted Sandyman who makes the "cracked" and "cracking" remark. Frodo's not there, so the remark's not directed to him but to Sam, who's just brought up some of the things Bilbo and Frodo have told him about Elves.

---------

On the YoungHappyFrodo = Artful Dodger question, it had never crossed my mind. Maybe partly because I saw Oliver Twist--IIRC--about two years before the FotR SE was released, so I have the characters pretty well separated. But I think it's mostly because I don't see the Dodger as all that happy and carefree. I see him as a boy who's fallen into a situation where he feels he has a place (and a talent that's admired by others), and he accepts it and makes the best of it and enjoys the pleasures it offers. But IMHO, it's far from carefree. He has to be careful of what he says and how he says it, is constantly aware of what he needs to do to hold his "place" in the gang heirarchy, and has to watch his back with people like Bill Sykes around. Not exactly a relaxed, carefree existence.

Good day, colleagues! Chiming in on the pre-quest Frodo depiction in FoTR. (I've been spending waaay too much time studying this film.) I think some of the criticism about EW's "carefree" Frodo may be due to the way the film was produced. For example, the party scene, at which Frodo's laugh seemed forced, was filmed in the studio at Wellington near the Airport; so the forced laugh after Frodo pushes Sam into Rosie's arms was re-recorded after the initial filming. I expect something similar occured for the Frodo/Gandalf encounter. How hard must it be to produce a laugh that matches an already filmed moment? Like Elda, I really like the characterization of happy go lucky Fro in the film.

And in the SE, isn't it Fatty Bolger who says that Frodo is "cracking"? Isn't he supposed to be one of book Frodo's great friends? His character is re-conceived for the film...

Hmm, cannot comment on the Artful Dodger discussion, as I have *never* been able to watch the entire film! Not my favorite Elwood film.

tg, you are absolutely right about the meaning of March 25. It was New Year's Day for much of Europe throughout the Middle Ages. It makes sense, if you think about it, as it is so close to the Vernal Equinox and the beginning of Spring. Many pre-Christian cultures celebrated it as such. The symbolism associated with the date enriches the story Tolkien wanted to tell, even if he did not want to write an allegory.

Has anybody ever heard of the groups that Wood has been listening to in Austin? Has Harry Knowles reported anything yet?

Just pop in to do a quick survey, http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/help.gif
I'm converting some video clips for the compilation disc, and I'm just wondering which format do you prefer, quicktime(.mov) or realmedia(.rm)?

Originally posted by tgshaw
Hmmm... I might have to disagree with Sheryl on something :eek: :eek:

Yeah, and you didn't like my Frodo and Sam's friendship inspiring Smeagol idea in the Green Dragon, either. *sulks*

Originally posted by tgshaw

Farmer Maggot said Frodo was "one of the worst young rascals of Buckland." So I'm not sure he was all that innocent.

I filter Maggot's comment there through Pippin's earlier statement about him - I think it indisputable that Frodo did repeatedly steal mushrooms, and according to Pippin that means Farmer Maggot would see him as a terrific rascal. The "aloneness" I'm seeing also comes from Pippin's "everyone knows" tone when he talks of Farmer Maggot - if "everyone" knows, why didn't Frodo? Maybe he just didn't believe people, but OTOH, maybe no one told him what Farmer Maggot was like. Which might mean that the other boys didn't know he was stealing Farmer Maggot's mushrooms.

Originally posted by tgshaw

I think of him rather like EW's Huck Finn (maybe that's part of the reason I saw young Frodo in him right away :) ). Movie-Huck (more than book-Huck) could certainly be a rascal and get himself into all kinds of trouble.

I might go with that, which makes me think that it may be my definition of rascal Frodo is different from that of a lot of fanfic writers - I always saw Tom Sawyer as the *real* rascal, while Huck was just the one who got caught or blamed. :p Huck was quite likely to see the flaws in a plan, or to argue in favor of compassion, Tom would talk him out of it and off they'd go. Then when their deeds came to light Tom would be doing the "butter wouldn't melt in his mouth" routine while everyone talked about the "bad influence" Huck had over Tom. :rolleyes:

Been so long since I've read the books I couldn't even swear that actually happens, but that's how I saw the two characters (not a Tom fan, nope). The "young rascal Frodo" in a lot of fanfic reminds me much more of Tom than of Huck, and that image I reject.

Although Huck struck me as a fairly solitary character, too, more likely to wait until he was invited than to involve himself in the fun, so maybe my memory is completely hopeless on the topic...

Originally posted by tgshaw

But I think it's mostly because I don't see the Dodger as all that happy and carefree.

I don't either, but I do think he enjoys his friends. But for me, Frodo isn't *totally* happy and carefree in the Green Dragon either. It's a happy and carefree period in his life, but he's had tragedy, too. It's not as if he's never known it. Dodger never gets any extended period of peace, but he does snatch what moments he can, I think. But if I were to connect the Green Dragon scene to a specific Dodger scene, it'd be when Dodger's first educating Oliver, kind of dancing around in that park. Not an innocent image at all.

Niphredil,
I'm still pondering your ""North" is a virtuoso performance" comment. I liked the movie and thought EW did a good job, but I don't know if I'd go that far. :p Were you so impressed because he did comedy so well? If so, have you seen Chain of Fools? Can't remember. Very different part, but more evidence that EW has a good sense of comedic timing, I think. I'd like to see him in some more comedy, myself.

Sheryl

For virtuoso performance, I vote for The War. I was astonished. "If he's watching, he can go now." Whereupon I allowed myself to burst into tears.

Something I don't understand - Why look for Froshadowing? I look for the opposite when I watch an extra-LOTR EW movie. For instance, I was much relieved NOT to find Fro in 'Ash Wednesday' (a pathetic film, I thought - not an 'opportunity' for any of the actors). EW no doubt did the best he could with lame lines, terrible scene setting etc., but even when his acting was noteworthy, I hoped that it would not recall FB, as the character he portrayed was entirely other than the squire. Fortunately, I found it Frodo-free. Same for Flipper, Bumblebee and so on. Was glad that EW did not seem to rely on obvious mannerisms, tricks to achieve certain moods or expressions. His characters all seemed distinct from each other and from Frodo.

Re: Philippa Boynes quote from Ainon's Script Magic link above - I don't think much of Boynes' writing (or any of the script writers'), nor of her incites into the book. At the risk of seeming snobbish, I think the difference between the LOTR script-writers (including PJ) and the book's author is the difference between representatives of pop-culture and a professor of Old English language and history. Any wonder why the book carries more weight (as many of us think)?

Examples on the pop-culture side (from above-mentioned link):
Reporter - "The challenges of adapting 'The Two Towers' into a three-hour movie, however, had less to do with the logistics of battle scenes than vivifying a multiplicity of two-dimensional characters."
ARRRGH! If lotr chars all 2-dimensional I could never have read the book even once!!
Boynes - "Tolkien drew his characters from Icelandic myth and saga, based on his knowledge of major stereotypes that he remodeled into characters like Aragorn. They are very iconic. To engage the audience more emotionally, we had to go on our own journey and rewrite those characters to add a degree of psychological depth and realism." -
sic! And she's a fan???? If any of JRRT's characters are iconic (and Frodo really is not), they ALSO engage the reader emotionally. That's JRRT's genius (and not the movie's). Boynes actually thinks she can DEEPEN Tolk's work, improve upon its 'reality'? How can she possibly believe her dummed-down script (many have noticed it) to add depth to the original? And, evidently she thinks subtlety and realism are incompatible. Typical pop-culture notion - that reality is better depicted by spelling it out. :mad: Not all pop-culture's a cliche, but alot of is, by definition.

Ainon - What is the main story line in The Witness? Have no idea how to get a copy myself. Maybe you could PM me so's not 'spoil' for others?

Originally posted by naiad
Something I don't understand - Why look for Froshadowing?
It's fun.


from Sheryl
Yeah, and you didn't like my Frodo and Sam's friendship inspiring Smeagol idea in the Green Dragon, either. *sulks*
I liked it! I liked it! I just said I needed to think about it because it was a concept I hadn't thought about before. That's a compliment -- I think ;) .


erendis--I totally agree about Elijah's performance in The War. Every once in awhile, I toy with the idea of putting The Ice Storm above The War in my EJW moving ranking--IMHO both are excellent movies and Elijah "becomes" a very distinct and fully-drawn character in each of them. And Mikey is such a difficult character to bring to life--much less engage the audience's empathy. But Stu is so completely real and goes through such a range of real human emotion that he keeps holding his place :) .


I've been working on the one-take scene from Huck Finn. It's taking a lot of work--there's so much there. I don't know if I can promise it for April :( . But I wanted to share this one pic, just because I thought it was beautiful:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/outtakes/capcrop5650-85.jpg

("Analyzing" this scene is increasing my Courtney B. Vance appreciation, too.)

Wow, with Maeglian and ainon gone, it's quiet in here.

Originally posted by naiad

Something I don't understand - Why look for Froshadowing? <CLIP> Was glad that EW did not seem to rely on obvious mannerisms, tricks to achieve certain moods or expressions. His characters all seemed distinct from each other and from Frodo.

What I like about Froshadowings is how *differently* EW plays parallel situations. He's using the same body and the same brain, but it seems as if he somehow sends the emotions through a different filter, so even though the situation is similar, or even though certain shots parallel, the way the scene is played as a whole is unique to that character.

Originally posted by naiad

Boynes - "Tolkien drew his characters from Icelandic myth and saga, based on his knowledge of major stereotypes that he remodeled into characters like Aragorn. They are very iconic."

I have to confess I found book Aragorn iconic myself. Not boring, but far more a "type" than most of the Hobbits. His character has a mythic quality that did create a distance for me as a reader. Frodo, OTOH, was totally original but inspired a "type" within fantasy novels - but that type never had the depth of Frodo. I've read a zillion "Frodo-wannabes" fantasy characters, read them before I read LOTR, and Frodo still stands out as unique in a way that Aragorn, IMHO, does not. Or maybe I just like the way other authors have handled Aragorn's type better, LOL!

But shouldn't this conversation be taking place in the Trilogy forum? :p To get back on topic, uhhhhmm... EW rejects a lot of stuff as pop culture, too. Well, he doesn't use that term, but I think that's behind his disdain of a lot of musicians. ;)

Originally posted by naiad

Ainon - What is the main story line in The Witness? Have no idea how to get a copy myself. Maybe you could PM me so's not 'spoil' for others?

The Witness happens during WW II; EW plays a little boy who watches a man who leads people to their death in the gas chambers. Very spooky and sad. It was originally on a TV anthology series I believe, but at any rate it isn't available on DVD or video so I'd be willing to copy it for you if you want to PM me on it.

Originally posted by tgshaw

I just said I needed to think about it because it was a concept I hadn't thought about before. That's a compliment -- I think ;).

Sheryl eyes that wink warily, then shrugs. I think I'll take it as a compliment. ;) At any rate, offering you a LOTR concept you hadn't considered before is an accomplishment. :D

I'm going to try to get The War watched this weekend - I've been saving that and Bumblebee for a special occasion or something. Spring's a special occasion, right?

Courtney B. Vance is really something - I must see him in something else sometime. I really like his work in the scene where they find the "Wanted" poster for some reason - the interplay beween the two, the emotions going across his face, how you can see Jim think... nice.

I'll just add his stuff to my list of "movies by LOTR actors I want to see sometime." :rolleyes: :D

Sheryl

Edit:

Happy hundredth page, everyone!

(((((Faculty)))))

Can anybody supply me with an NTSC version of The Witness. It really sounds intriguing and I'd love to see it.

TG: I'd put The War above The Ice Storm too. It's also the only EJW movie (other than LotR) that I've actually purchased rather than recorded from the tv. He's such a different character to anybody else that he has played.

I'm slowly but surely making my way through his performances. Thanks to Luthiea (:k) I've managed to watch Child In The Night at last. Still a long way to go though. I'vve not seen: Bumblebee, Avalon, Radio Flyer, Internal Affairs or Oliver Twist. I think that's it as far as the older ones go, but I also have yet to see Try 17 and Ash Wednesday. Thanks to Maeglian for giving me the means to see Chain Of Fools (:k)

(Edit: I should also say that I haven't seen Black and White or TT&T but they don't count as I've no intention of seeing either of them)

I'll add my congrats to everybody for reaching 100 pages - we didn't even get this far in Imladris, did we?

(((((Faculty)))))

HAPPY 100 PAGES!!! :)

{{faculty}}

Boy, I'm away for over two weeks and the whole tenor of the discussion changes - and a lot of new posters: welcome!!

It's taken the best part of two hours to catch up and unfortunately I don't know the books in the depth that some of you do, nor have I been able to track down any other EW movies (and to be honest, given the varying opinions about their quality, not sure if I *really* want to spend the money on them), which makes it difficult to voice any even remotely intelligent opinion on them and EW's interpretation.

suffice it to say, that, RL allowing, the quest this weekend is find a theatre that is still playing TTT, so that with a gap of more than a month, I can see EW again, and look at him and the movie from a (relatively) fresh viewpoint and maybe see things that I missed before.

aw, what the heck, it will be enjoyable anyway :D

viola

EE - Luthiea came to see you - and she didn't bring 'Bumblebee?'

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POSSIBLE 'BUMBLEBEE' SPOILERS

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Barney is one of my very favourite EW roles: it is if anything a rather understated performance, but totally in keeping with the character he is portraying.
I remember reading a post way back (must have been at C0fE) by someone who had just seen the film and thought Barney 'boring.' I don't agree. Barney has essentially 'lost' his life, his identity, his personality. He is in this terrible situation, undergoing an experimental process which uses drugs, hypnosis and selective memory 'input.' (for want of a better word)
He is told by his doctor to remain 'detached' from the other patients, all youngsters suffering from terminal illnesses, and who are also involved in various experimental programmes.
I think Elijah plays Barney to perfection. Initially he is a lonely figure, isolated by the fact that he is 'different' from the others. By the end of the film Barney knows only too well what his former life was like, and is faced with a heart-wrenching decision.
During the final scenes (in the attic) Elijah gives us a Barney fraught with emotion, and though he doesn't actually cry, I get a lump in my throat everytime I hear his line, 'I didn't have so much to lose before. I didn't have family, people I love. I can't let you take that away from me.' (Gets me every time) Also, while he is trying to decide whether to 'let Mazzo go' - you can see - even 'feel' the inner turmoil he is going through.
And lastly, I completely agree with Tg on this. His 'Hello,' right at the end is heart-breaking.

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END 'BUMBLEBEE' SPOILERS

Ooops! Didn't intend to go on as long as that, but I do love EW's performance in this film.

I am also with everyone else who thinks EW is amazing in 'The War.' Another brilliant performance.

For me the beauty of Elijah's talent is - his characters are convincing; he imbues each with their own body language, expressions, etc. It is not Elijah Wood you see on the screen - it is the character. Look at Stu, Casey, Mikey, Barney and Frodo. (the only EW roles I know well, but will probably include Huck and Mark on that list very soon) He is a wonderful actor, and no-one will convince me otherwise.

Btw, I LOVE young, happy Frodo.

Maeglian - I tried to get that pic for you of EW in shades and Gandalf's pointy hat, but apparently you need Quickplayer Pro to capture stills from a video, and seeing as you have to purchase it - not possible at the moment. SORRY! :(

HAPPY 100 PAGES!!!

Bye.

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
Can anybody supply me with an NTSC version of The Witness. It really sounds intriguing and I'd love to see it.

We're stateside so I know my copy will play NTSC (played through our DVD player alright). But the copy I have is a VCD - if you can play a VCD on your computer, then NTSC and PAL don't apply (then again, aren't you in Ireland and isn't that PAL? I'm so confused...).

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie

I'm slowly but surely making my way through his performances. Thanks to Luthiea (:k) I've managed to watch Child In The Night at last. Still a long way to go though. I'vve not seen: Bumblebee, Avalon, Radio Flyer, Internal Affairs or Oliver Twist. I think that's it as far as the older ones go, but I also have yet to see Try 17 and Ash Wednesday.

I haven't seen Child In the Night - matter of fact, I haven't seen any of the ones you list there except Oliver. Wait, and I haven't seen Deep Impact, either, or Day-O. Clearly, I need to make a list. :p But for some reason The War and Bumblebee strike me as movies I'm going to really enjoy, not sure about the rest although I want to see them. I keep intending to watch Ice Storm again but I sort of have to work up the nerve...

Only ones I actually own are FOTR, Flipper, and Huck Finn, but I'll probably use my birthday money on something, maybe North or Oliver, although I might go for the Good Son, and considering my kids' fascination with Flipper another copy of that - *mom's* copy - might not be a bad idea... Guess I should price them out. :p First I should see if I can rent Ash Wednesday with the commentary, see if I want to cough up the cash for that but I suspect not. Eventually I'm going to have to spend a chunk of cash just to see something, but I figure I'll exhaust the local rental systems and buy the ones I know I like first.

If the Ice Storm came out with director's commentary, that'd tempt me, but the DVD just lists a "featurette" - anyone know what that is? And have I asked that before? :o

Definitely should get a list going. Then again, I probably have - and lost it. :rolleyes: :o :D

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie

(Edit: I should also say that I haven't seen Black and White or TT&T but they don't count as I've no intention of seeing either of them)

Ditto. I suppose if I'd seen absolutely everything he's done at some point I might be tempted by Black and White, but that's far in the future. Time is more of a constraint on me than money or actually getting hold of the films - I have a fair amount of free time daily in bits and pieces, but I hate watching a movie the first time in bits and pieces, and two hour chunks of times without the kids are hard to come by around here. Besides, hubby insists on watching the movies with me the first time through. It's nice he appreciates EW, but finding a two hour chunk when we are *both* free is next to impossible.

Gotta schedule a movie night or movie afternoon with a sitter, if I could just figure out someone who'd get the kids out of here...

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie

I'll add my congrats to everybody for reaching 100 pages - we didn't even get this far in Imladris, did we?

I looked it up, and we were on page 98 in the Pony when it went down - we lost so many posts moving to the Pony, however, that we would have been far past 100 without the move. But technically this is the first time we've hit 100 pages.

Hi, Viola!

TTT is still in the second-run theatres here, we'll see if that changes tomorrow (FOTR was only in the second-run for three weeks), if it doesn't I may try to get out for one last view in the theatre. I'm gonna miss it when it's gone - still only seen it three times. I hope to do better with ROTK, which may actually happen because we won't be traveling over the holidays. And I am definitely not having the kitchen redone again that soon - although at the present rate, the downstairs bath will still be stripped bare and empty come next Christmas. :rolleyes: Haven't seen hide nor hair of the guy working on the house in three or four weeks now...

Rats, just realized my brother's going to want to stay in the room where all the stuff from the bathroom is stored. Oh, well, it's not like the floor is going to go in while he's here, I'll just have hubby haul all the stuff we pulled out back into the bathroom I guess. Bah.

Sheryl

Hiya Faculty! Congratulations! 100 pages!!! :)

(although, when did things change to being 25 posts/page rather than 30/pages? :confused: )

Lots to reply to, but for now a quick post & run. look at this!:



POSSIBLE RotK SPOILER ;)






scroll past to avoid








http://www.aintitcoolnews.com/image/minasmorgul.jpg









source: aint it cool news. highlight below for info.


Pre-Production art of Minas Morgul from RETURN OF THE KING!!!

Hey folks, Harry here... I just got my copy of the ART OF THE TWO TOWERS which will be hitting bookstores soon. This baby is an incredible tip of the iceberg of the craftsmanship, artistry and love that went into crafting this film. As wonderful as this book is at illustrating the process that went into making this film, you know that for every picture inclued there must be 10 other works that they were choosing from... My only complaint is that I wish it was 4 times as thick. And this picture... well if it doesn't get you drooling, take the cotton out...



oh, and to answer deluby's question on previous page ... Quicktime! Please? :) :)



Adding later

I'm still the last post? Oh well, doing another post & run. Here's our boy, as of 13/3/03, apparently. Dunno where. But whoa. What a geek. :D :cool:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1979662.jpg


and also, a quick thanks to Sheryl for summarising 'The Witness' for naiad - if you want more details, naiad, you're welcome to PM me. :) and hey, Viola! :k

Woohoo! 100 pages of sheer madness! :D

ainon - I love that geeky photo! Who is that other guy?

Originally posted by Blossom
EE - Luthiea came to see you - and she didn't bring 'Bumblebee?'
Oh! :o I never realised you'd not seen that EE, or I would have brought you Bumblebee too! Never mind I can always bring it along to the next meet! :D

Better go, I've got work soon :rolleyes:

{{Elijah}}

{{Faculty}}

Luthiea :)

Has anyone else noticed that in recent photos Elijah looks like the secret love-child of Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs?

http://www.dwaynehickman.com/images/Dobie_Maynard.jpg

:eek: :eek: :eek:

:D :D :D

We're stateside so I know my copy will play NTSC (played through our DVD player alright). But the copy I have is a VCD - if you can play a VCD on your computer, then NTSC and PAL don't apply (then again, aren't you in Ireland and isn't that PAL? I'm so confused...).

Okay, I'm confused now - which is the version that works in Europe? I thought it was NTSC. But whatever its called, I need the European version, if anybody can supply it.

EE - Luthiea came to see you - and she didn't bring 'Bumblebee?'

and

Oh! I never realised you'd not seen that EE, or I would have brought you Bumblebee too! Never mind I can always bring it along to the next meet!

Well, in the same vein - I know Luth's version of Bumblebee is the American version and she's lucky enough that her video player can play that version. Unfortunately not mine, so it wouldn't have been any use to me.

I have read the book though - so that's almost a compensation for not having seen the movie (Who am I kidding? I still really want to see Elijah in the roll, and I know it will be a lot better than my imagination ever could be)

I'm hoping to see The Movie again very soon too. I haven't seen it since being in London for Naked Gandalf Day. I never went that long without seeing Fellowship. But then again, I never saw Fellowship four times in 10 days either!

Ainon - what a picture! Geeky Elijah is alive and well!

Woo-Hoo 100 pages! Go us!

Congratulations, Faculty! And not a page without fascinating insight on a fascinating topic! ;)

I am very glad that Elwood has been sighted again. He's really managed to live a life without even the most obsessed, er dedicated :p fans knowing his itinerary. Good for him.
Snerk! Gladys, you are wicked! But it does look like EW is cultivating an Ubergeek look. Hmmm, could that be for Thumbsucker? Naah, not the beard. Is fiming for Eternal Sunshine over? Ah, but his character in that didn't have a beard, right?

Bumblebee is well worth watching, EE. Wish I could help. It is really a bravura performance, as the character has a rather flat affect for much of the film. It raises again all those "How does he DO that?" questions.

I am still on the road, and trying to find a theatre showing TTT. The only thing showing in town is Daredevil. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by ainon

whoa. What a geek.

Right down to the one button unbuttoned to show the white t-shirt. Gotta love 'im. :D

I think the 25 posts per page hit shortly after we moved here -? I remember some discussion about the pagination changing a while back, anyhow, although I never did pin down what was going on. Or maybe it was after Ele became a mod, since I remember her saying something about looking into it after someone else brought it up.

Originally posted by Gladys
Has anyone else noticed that in recent photos Elijah looks like the secret love-child of Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs?


I might agree to a bit of Maynard, but I see no Gillis in Elijah. :p

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie

Okay, I'm confused now - which is the version that works in Europe? I thought it was NTSC. But whatever its called, I need the European version, if anybody can supply it.

Hmm, I think when I type that name by hand I forget the possessive...

WARNING: Extensive Off Topic Discussion Ahead!

NTSC is the standard in the US, PAL the standard in the UK. But it's the *video* standard, not the computer standard. It's not really the DVD standard, either - DVD players have to be set to exclude one region or the other. This link has a list of countries with their video standard:

http://www.spie.org/app/Education/index.cfm?fuseaction=VideoFormats

My copy of The Witness is on a VCD - this link goes into what they are and what you can do with them:

http://www.vcdgallery.com/help.htm

Whoever wrote that is a bit more optimistic than some, but best I can tell from scanning various sites, if you have the stuff on your computer to play VCDs and it's current, PAL and NTSC are fairly immaterial. You may have to add a few steps to play it, is all. When I asked computer geek hubby about translating The Witness to PAL, he said "No problem" - but of course my hubby is always telling me this or that computer project is "No problem," when what he really means is, "No problem if you have all the stuff I've got/are willing to jump through enough hoops." ;)

Since we'll be copying it, I assume we could translate it for you when we put it on disc if your equipment won't do it.

Some DVD players will also translate VCDs from one format to the other, but then again, not all DVD players will even play VCDs!

If you PM me with the make and model on your DVD player, or send me the info on what computer you have and what software you'd be using to view it, hubby should be able to tromp the Internet and figure out a way to get it to you. So he claims, anyway. :p

Resuming regularly scheduled EW appreciation now.

The Witness is way intense, and you don't hear him speak, but EW does a stunner job with it, IMHO.

(((((peaceweaver))))))

Good to see you!

That reminds me - we were planning on going to see Daredevil. It's out, is it? :p Well, maybe when it gets to video...

Sheryl

Gladys-- :D :D --You certainly have an eye for family resemblances! (But I thought I was about the only person here who was old enough to know that isn't Gilligan on the right :p .) And I'm trying not to think about which one would be the mother :eek: . Edit, since Sheryl just posted: I'd say he gets his beard (when he has one) from MGK, and the cute all-American look from Dobie (or the "modern crop" haircut :p ).

EE, I hope you get a chance to see Bumblebee--not only does Elijah do a good job (as someone whose emotions have been more or less forced inside him for most of the movie), but the movie is way different from the book. Movie-Barney is older than book-Barney (now there's a switch :p ), which makes his relationships with people quite a bit different and, IMHO, makes him less of a victim. The two Barneys have some similar problems, but the book is much darker than the movie.

As far as other movies you said you haven't seen (and I guess Sheryl is "in on this," too), Elijah has a few seconds of screen time and about four or five words of dialogue in Internal Affairs (it was his second one-line part, after Back to the Future II). So that probably doesn't need to be at the top of your list :rolleyes: . Avalon is a wonderful movie and got a lot of recognition and popularity. Radio Flyer is a wonderful movie that didn't get a lot of recognition and popularity (possibly because of its ambiguous ending, which for me just makes it more interesting).

Sheryl--FGS :eek: !--If you haven't seen The War, go find it!! Right now!! What--are you still sitting there reading this :mad: ?! [:p , of course, but do watch it ASAP. I promise you'll be glad you did, even if you don't care for Kevin Costner--he doesn't have nearly as much screen time as Elijah does :) .]

And if anyone's seen Day-O, I'd love to know about it.

Now, to go w-a-y back to the post from peaceweaver about Frodo's laughter at the Party being re-recorded. (IIRC, the entire movie had to be re-dubbed.) When I was doing screencaps (so watching the movie without any sound), I was surprised how natural that laugh looked--so I tend to agree that the forced sound of it is likely from not getting the perfect match between picture and sound.

I forgot to mention--after Courtney B. Vance came up in the conversation yesterday, I checked out what was available from Amazon. In a kind of funny little two-degrees-of-separation thing, you can get Tuskagee Airmen (Courtney) and Memphis Belle (Sean A.) in a special combo deal. :)

Uber-geek continues to shave his head!!! And after we told him it was a no-no!!!!! Oh well he's still the cutest Uber-geek around.

I think he is done filming Sunshine and may be filming Thumbsucker which could contribute to the geek look.

Maynard and Dobie????? Never thought of it but.... but.... That's a strangely disturbing thought.:D ;)

Edit- Oh dearie me.. Something must be done..........Go here and express your opinion on the hair or lack of it. Scroll down to the poll.



My Infamous Lij Haircut Poll (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/)

Originally posted by tgshaw


And if anyone's seen Day-O, I'd love to know about it.


I seem to remember someone discussing his singing at the end. Goldie, peaceweaver, was that you? If so, 'fess up!

They won't, of course, because they know I'm in easy driving distance, and that I'd head right out there and get a copy out of them one way or another. ;)

RATS! I was supposed to remind hubby to pick up The War on his lunch hour, and here it is 3:30. Last time he meant to get it all the copies were gone by the time he got there...

And I still see no Dobie, but then, I never liked his clean-cut good looks schtict. Give me geeks!

Sheryl

Alas, Sheryl, all I know about 'Dayo' is what I read about it on Elijah's now-defunct "official" website almost two years ago. There were a few very cute pictures of him with Delta Burke, and a brief story background. He played Delta's imaginary childhood friend, IIRC.

Anyone who can unearth that little gem deserves the Faculty Researcher of the Year award.

As for the Ubergeek photo--:D :D :D --it brought to mind strong associations with my mechanical engineer father during my childhood. Same eyeglasses, same bland shirt (has to be short-sleeved!) same short hair. OK, no chin scruff, but otherwise, it's 1960's Dad!:eek: ;) :p

Hubby remembered to get The War on his lunch hour without me reminding him, bless his bones! Alas and alack, that copy and our VCR could not reach an agreement that enabled us to see anything. He couldn't find a DVD copy locally, but after trying three different tapes we had floating around with no trouble he decided to get another copy of The War if he could find one, which he thinks he has.

Sent him out with a list of stuff I haven't seen yet, just in case, I told him, "I really want this, this or this, but if nothing else you could settle for-"

"Deep Impact!" he exclaimed with delight.

"I hear EW's performance is not the best in that," I warned.

"I've always wanted to see Deep Impact," he informed me.

So, I may not get to see The War tonight, but I guess I'm assured of something new EW. Most likely Deep Impact. :rolleyes:

Goldie,
I'd forgotten EW's Official Site (never did see it) - did it have a .wav file of EW singing Day-O? I could swear I remembered someone saying they'd heard that when we were discussing his singing abilities sometime, and now that you've reminded me of the site I'm thinking maybe that's it. I did a search for Day-O in the saved Faculty files but either I'm hallucinating or it was in the section that got hacked to bits moving out of Casting - couldn't find it.

I did find that ronald-mcdonald (who posted to the Faculty with info on Chain of Fools a couple of times before the move) said he/she had Day-O, or at least had ordered it, in PAL format. Nobody jumped up and asked "Where?!" regarding Day-O, though, so maybe I'm hallucinating with the words in front of me!

Oh, wait, did a web search and, yep, the official site did have a clip of him singing Day-O, so I guess my memory is not totally fabricating after all. Also found someone saying she got Day-O second-hand on video from a rental place, so it was presumably released at some point. It's probably some outragously overpriced collector's item now. :mad:

Sheryl wanders off muttering... :D

Sheryl

YAY, 100 PAGES!!!!
http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilies/woohoo.gif
posted by Blossom
Maeglian - I tried to get that pic for you of EW in shades and Gandalf's pointy hat, but apparently you need Quickplayer Pro to capture stills from a video, and seeing as you have to purchase it - not possible at the moment. SORRY! Actually the basic quickplayer can screencap, when you click Edit then Copy, it'll ask you to install a plug-in for quicktime capture. Once you've done it, close QT and open it again, Edit-Copy(or Ctrl-C), it will screencap. The image will be temporarily stored in Windows clipboard(I don't know about Macs), you can open an image processing program and Paste, the image will be there.
Here's the hat pics. ;)
http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/hat1.jpg http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/hat2.jpg


I'm gonna take down the first batch of old gifs tomorrow and put up the rest. If anyone want me to wait for a few more days, let me know. :)

A little update on compilation disc project, borrowed a video capture card from friend so now I can transfer the clips I tapped on VHS to digital videos. :cool: But my God, encoding them takes FOREVER. A 5 min clip takes 2 hrs! :eek: http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilies/faint.gif After couple of days of trying out different settings, I was able to reduce the encoding time to 45min~1hr for a 5 min clip. So it might take some time for me to finish the disc. :o

Sheryl, I meant to ask you about the Witness but kept forgetting to PM you. How big is the clip? It's about 8-10 min long right? I figure it probably would be around 700mb since it's on VCD. I'm thinking about puting it on the disc along with the Homicide clip(EW's part) and Chains of Fool clip(EW's part).

I taped Child in the Night a few weeks ago and I can put that on the disc too, but I don't know if it's worth it since EW is in only half of it. So maybe I'll just pick his scenes out(like Homicide and COF) and put them on the disc. How's that?

Now if only someone can track down Day-O.
I think I'm gonna try my luck and search some local video rental stores this weekend. *fingers crossed*

Wow, deluby - You're a computer wizard. Now why couldn't I work out you COULD get captures to work on the basic QuickTime player? Could be something to do with my severe lack of technical brainpower!:confused: Thanks for the info on how to do it. I'll try that.

I'm so glad you did those for Maeglian to see.

Peaceweaver - Hope you are OK all by yourself on the road. At least when you're in unfamiliar territory you know The Faculty isn't too far away.

Sheryl I'll second Tg's FGS :eek: If you haven't seen 'The War' - Go find it! EW is brilliant! Also Avalon is well worth seeing - EW is very young in it - it's about three generations of an immigrant family in Baltimore (IIRC) in the early 1900's. Radio Flyer also is excellent, though somewhat disturbing at times. I think we've had debates here before about the amiguous ending of that one!
While hubby commandeered the computer last night, I sorted out my taped from TV copies of 'Forever Young' and 'Flipper' (it's really not too bad!) Anyway I had an enjoyable EW evening. I'll probably add FY to my EW DVD collection at some point - Nat is probably the most 'normal, well-adjusted' child EW has played!

Not sure if our DVD player or computer play VCD's Must check. How do we get a copy of 'The Witness' if we want one?

Bye.

Originally posted by shilohmm
I might agree to a bit of Maynard, but I see no Gillis in Elijah. :p It's the buzzcut, baby. :cool:

Originally posted by tgshaw
I thought I was about the only person here who was old enough to know that isn't Gilligan on the right. I hasten to add that I only ever saw The Many Loves of Dobie Gillis in repeats, tg. :p (Actually I'm sure that quite a lot of people here are familiar with it regardless of age. Cable television is the most convincing evidence I've ever seen for the reality of Nietzsche's doctrine of Eternal Recurrence. :D )

Trivia buffs might be interested to hear that the eerie family resemblance is not the only Elijah/Dobie connection. While I was surfing for a picture of Dobie & Maynard to post here I discovered that the woman who played Zelda Gilroy later went into politics and is currently the representative in the Californian state legislature for the district where Elijah lives. Wonder if he votes for her?

Originally posted by Hobmom
Uber-geek continues to shave his head!!! Don't panic (yet ;)), Hobmom. He would have had to keep the hair short for the sake of continuity for the movie he just made.

Originally posted by shilohmm
I'm assured of something new EW. Most likely Deep Impact. Be sure to watch for the ring-in-the-hand Froshadowing, Sheryl, and also for the disturbing absence of The Gap. :p

deluby, do what you must. I'm not savvy enough to really understand everything you're saying, but you have my full support! ;) :k I'll never get enough of those jumpy happy smileys.

And of course, thank you for those hat caps! Those are precious. I'm gonna have this grin plastered on my face all evening. :D

tg, I forgot to thank you for posting the teaser for the 'One Take' series coming up on your site. :) Thank you, and seeing how lovely that one is, I'm really looking forward to everything else! Courtney B. Vance tends to show up as the supporting character piloting the sub, or the back-up cop, or the fourth/fifth member of a team - yeah, I've been keeping an eye out for him too on the satellite movie channels. But he just doesn't get anything to do in the movies I've spotted him in, and the one lead role I sorta caught him in was in a movie that was so uninteresting that I switched off before the first half hour was through.

Btw, I did sit through like 15 minutes of the Oscars the other night, and it was when Mickey Mouse partnered with Jennifer Garner to present. Mickey Mouse had his lines, of course, and it included him pulling a ring out of an envelope and going, "Ha ha, very funny Frodo" and frowning out at the audience, looking for Frodo, I'm sure :p ... and the camera zooms in on Sean Astin. Made me wonder if the Oscar producers had been expecting to have EW in the audience that night.


Blossom, all DVD players and DVD-ROMS should be able to play VCDs. At least they do here, but we get off with stuff here that folks elsewhere can't ...

Luthiea - the guy appears to be Mel Sandico, an Austin DJ, to quote what's said at the site that shall not be named. Sheryl's so right about how right EW's geek look is. ;) And *gasp* Hollywood failed to educate me on who Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs are.


Aww, no one intrigued at all by that spoiler pic I posted above? Not that I have anything to say actually. :p I was just so thrilled to see F & S & G off to the side there.


{{{peaceweaver}}} :)

OK, I'm still reeling over that geek pic that Ainon posted. Maynard G. Krebs indeed. How can anyone be so dazzlingly, heart-stoppingly beautiful some of the time and be such an astounding geek the rest of the time!? And I swear, if he doesn't let that hair grow out, I really WILL kidnap him, imprison him in my apartment and rub Minoxidil in his head to make his hair grow faster!

I really need to renew my Blockbuster membership to rent some of these EW movies. I am pathetically lacking in this, having only seen him in Forever Young, Huck Finn, The Good Son and (of course) FoTR and TTT. I have to admit that I have a very soft spot in my heart for The Good Son, which is not much mentioned here. Some very nice angstsy Fro-shadowing (the scene where he runs to the ice and is held back always makes me think of Frodo with Boromir after Gandalf falls) and an overall strong and convincing performance...especially next to Macaulay Culkin who was creepy in such a cliched way that I never really "bought" it and who...forgive me...looks like a little blond monkey-boy next to the Lovely Elijah.

Those pics of the "Wicked Witch of the West" in shades are hilarious :D -- but I can sure see how that fair skin and those light blue eyes would need the protection from the bright sunlight reflecting off the snow.

--So, thanks for those, deluby, and thanks for the instructions on how to screencap with Quicktime. I'll be saving those, as I'd never be able to remember them :) . And the compilation disc sounds wonderful--I'm definitely interested! I'll hold off on my own request for The Witness from Sheryl until you see if that's going to work on the disc. But, speaking for myself, I'm not in such a hurry to get the disc that you should knock yourself out over it (((deluby))). Just gives us something to look forward to :) .

Sheryl--IMVVVHO Deep Impact isn't that bad, but I'm in large part speaking as a scifi fan there. It does have some scientific mistakes, but it's not as bad as most movies of that ilk. It came out about the same time as Armageddon, which has a similar story idea (and, let's see... who was in that...? :rolleyes: *) but DI's science is closer to reality. http://www.badastronomy.com/[/url] where an astronomer has some pretty funny reviews of movies and TV shows that use "space science" :D ). DI also has some good special effects--maybe why your husband wants to see it? There are some [i]big plot holes you have to ignore, but I guess I thought the acting in general was better than some people think it is. It's low-key, but to me that just made the characters seem more like the people next door. The teeth-capping, of course, is pure vandalism... :mad: But I kinda like Leo (another geek who tries to help save the world), and IMHO Elijah has some good moments.

By no stretch of the imagination could I consider Deep Impact even remotely as good a movie as The War, but if you have to get through DI in order to watch The War, hopefully you won't find it too much of a sacrifice :( .


*After typing that, I realized it's another instance of "two degrees of separation": Liv Tyler with Bruce Willis. Elijah's worked with so many actors, his career would be a great one to play "seven degrees" with--my only problem is that I don't know enough about other actors' movies to get them all hooked together.

Originally posted by ainon
Luthiea - the guy appears to be Mel Sandico, an Austin DJ, to quote what's said at the site that shall not be named.

It is Mel Sandico indeed. The picture originally appeared in his blog with a rather sweet caption ("I'm shorter than a hobbit"). Here's a direct link (http://www.djmel.com/frodo2low.jpg) to the picture at Sandico's site.

Eldalieva - I'm going to be ordering 'The Good Son' on DVD any day now:) This is one of EW's films that I have not seen yet, and I can't wait! So we should be having some chat on that one - and some screencaps - very soon!!!:) :) :)

Originally posted by ainon
...Courtney B. Vance tends to show up as the supporting character piloting the sub, or the back-up cop, or the fourth/fifth member of a team - yeah, I've been keeping an eye out for him too on the satellite movie channels. But he just doesn't get anything to do in the movies I've spotted him in, and the one lead role I sorta caught him in was in a movie that was so uninteresting that I switched off before the first half hour was through.
Out of curiosity, do you remember which one you saw the first half-hour of? When I was doing a search for his stuff the other day, the movie that seemed to get the most mention and best reviews was The Affair, in which he plays an American GI stationed in England during WWII who has an affair with a married English woman. It's said to have a "shocking" ending when the husband finds out about them.

The only one of Courtney's movies I've seen besides Huck Finn is The Preacher's Wife, but I didn't see all of it. I was actually trying to watch it because I'd liked him so much in Huck Finn. But it was on TV--I don't have cable--and manually holding the rabbit ears in place to get decent reception got kind of old, so I didn't get through the whole thing. It's a remake of The Bishop's Wife, which is a true classic (from the late 1940's, I think), and Courtney had the David Niven "preacher/bishop" role alongside Denzel Washington's re-do of Cary Grant's "angel"--something of a thankless role for both Niven and Courtney, although it's really the character whose story it is, that is, the one whose life is changed. (BTW, Whitney Houston has the Loretta Young role as Courtney's wife.)

I would like to see the whole thing on video sometime. IMHO, what I saw/heard of it wasn't as good as the original (one of my all-time favorite movies, so that would be a pretty big accomplishment), but wasn't a bad movie--if I didn't know the original, I probably would have liked the remake more than I did (now why does that sound familiar :rolleyes: ?).

And *gasp* Hollywood failed to educate me on who Dobie Gillis and Maynard G. Krebs are.
Since (as mentioned above) I don't have cable, the following is all from memory, so if any current viewers can correct something, please do: TV program (a comedy) early enough to still be in black-and-white. Dobie Gillis is a high school student (I think even back then, they tended to use actors who were older than the characters--it's not quite early enough to predate child labor laws :rolleyes: ), who works in his father's (grocery? hardware?) store and who tries--usually unsuccessfully despite his niceness and cuteness :confused: --to get the girl. (Gladys's post reminded me that during the later part of the show's run, there was a somewhat consistent "girlfriend," but, of course, there were problems there, too.) Maynard G. Krebs is Dobie's beatnik friend. And, yes, sports fans, real live beatniks did exist when this show was made. You can tell by the fact that in the pic Gladys posted Maynard doesn't look like a stereotypical beatnik, as he would undoubtedly have if the program had been made when there were no longer any real ones around. I have no idea what the "historical parallel" ;) would be between a beatnik and a geek, but if we're just working with appearances, it's not a bad match ;) --and, in our particular geek's case, they both love music.

BTW, apropos of nothing, really, IIRC it was one of the first TV shows in which a character (Dobie) occasionally addressed the audience directly, a la Malcolm in the Middle.


Aww, no one intrigued at all by that spoiler pic I posted above? Not that I have anything to say actually. :p I was just so thrilled to see F & S & G off to the side there.
Sorry--I should have said something :o . I think I was spellbound at the time (and too busy laughing at "To avoid spoiler, scroll down" [or words to that effect]--yeah, right :p :D ). I totally agree that it's thrilling! Thanks for sharing it. :)


from Elda
...How can anyone be so dazzlingly, heart-stoppingly beautiful some of the time and be such an astounding geek the rest of the time!?
Maybe that's how he's able to hop around the country without being spotted (but, of course, not for much longer if any more of these pictures get out :p ).

I have to admit that I have a very soft spot in my heart for The Good Son, which is not much mentioned here. Some very nice angstsy Fro-shadowing (the scene where he runs to the ice and is held back always makes me think of Frodo with Boromir after Gandalf falls) and an overall strong and convincing performance...
...also his holding the scissors (rather than a sword) at Macauley's throat, and, especially, his slowly and quietly following a barefoot woman wearing a long, white robe (IIRC, we even get a shot of her feet and the hem of the robe) down a flight of steps (which, again IIRC, has a 90-degree turn in it) after being awakened during the night.

Originally posted by deluby

Sheryl, I meant to ask you about the Witness but kept forgetting to PM you. How big is the clip?

17 minutes including credits. I suppose hubby could run it through the computer and get the seconds for you, but about 17 minutes. :p

Originally posted by deluby

I taped Child in the Night a few weeks ago and I can put that on the disc too, but I don't know if it's worth it since EW is in only half of it. So maybe I'll just pick his scenes out(like Homicide and COF) and put them on the disc. How's that?

Ooo, sounds good to me! From tg's review it doesn't appear we'd miss much going that route. Then again, I didn't mind missing the rest of CoF, because EW's character's "story" seemed fairly intact there for me (or I'd picked up enough elsewhere that the lack of the rest of the story was immaterial), but I still want the whole Homicide ep - then again, I watched Homicide faithfully when it was first on and give it up reluctantly when we decided against cable, so kind of a different scenario there. ;)

I was glad to have all of CoF, but much as I liked the movie as a whole, EW's stuff is by far the best part of it, IMHO. I expect the same would be true of Child in the Night.

Originally posted by BLOSSOM

How do we get a copy of 'The Witness' if we want one?

PM me with information on your set-up if you can view it through your computer, or with make and model on your DVD. Hubby thinks he should be able to produce a watchable copy for people if he has that info.

Originally posted by Gladys

Be sure to watch for the ring-in-the-hand Froshadowing, Sheryl, and also for the disturbing absence of The Gap.

Woah, I'd forgotten completely that there *were* any Froshadows in that! Are there any in The War?

Originally posted by ainon

Aww, no one intrigued at all by that spoiler pic I posted above? Not that I have anything to say actually.

Daughter liked it. She says she can see stairs there beside Gollum, I think she's hallucinating but people always see stuff on Internet photos I can't make out. My optomitrist says my eyes are in good shape but I don't believe him....

Elda,
I talk most about the movies I've seen repeatedly - only seen the Good Son once because I'm not sure I want the kids watching it and it was a rental. Same with Ice Storm. If I got the Ice Storm again, however, I would be compelled to watch it clear through at least once more before going into analysis mode - the movie as a whole is good enough to merit that. I want to give the other characters their due. :p I'll immediately scan the Good Son for the good bits, though. I think EW does a good job there, but I don't think it's as good a movie. Your Macauley Culkin comments are dead on, IMHO.

Come to think of it, I think The War is the first time I've seen young EW act with kids his own age who also provided good performances. The girl in that one scene in Huck Finn did a good job, but it was only the one short scene and she mugged a bit (then again, EW mugs much more than a bit through that section, but it's in character). I remember that the little girl in the Good Son did a better job than Macauley Culkin, but I can't remember if I thought she was anywhere near EW's league.

Originally posted by tgshaw

IMVVVHO Deep Impact isn't that bad, but I'm in large part speaking as a scifi fan there.

Oh, I'm not dreading it by any means - we meant to go see it as an s-f film (and compare it to Armageddon) when it came out, long before I had a clue who Elijah Wood was. But when I was looking forward to a really excellent flick like the War, Deep Impact was not what I had in mind. :p And it's got Morgan Freeman, who is the one I was looking forward to back then.

Oh, and we did get a copy of The War that agreed with our VCR last night. :)

Sheryl

Originally posted by Eldalieva
How can anyone be so dazzlingly, heart-stoppingly beautiful some of the time and be such an astounding geek the rest of the time!? I hope that was a rhetroical question, but in case it's not, I would answer by saying that it's a combination of The Wig and The Acting and The Camera Angel, all of which have been explored in this thread. :p

Elda, you MUST rent The War! My God! Elijah is heart-slowingly beautiful in that one too. He is billed above Kevin Costner (unusual for a child actor), and for good reason. The movie is pretty slow, or maybe it seems that way because Costner speaks really slowly. Then about 2/3 of the way through, it seems the director just gave up on the rest of the cast and focused almost entirely on Elijah. Well worth it.

And the side notes:

Could someone explain the difference between a beatnick and a bohemian? I'm not as familiar "my generation" baby-boomer stuff, probably because I'm not part of "that generation".
Does anyone else get the feeling that the sixties generation thinks that they're the only generation out there and that we're supposed to automatically know everything about it and get nostalgic about it like they do? :rolleyes:
------
The WORST ever astronomy I've seen is the original TV trailer for Stargate (the movie). One of the taglines said something about going "a hundred thousand light years...into the future!" :eek: :rolleyes: You would think that somebody, even if it had to be Mr. Voice the announcer, would have picked that up. They pulled that ad pretty quick.
------
As usual, even the least-known actors show up in a ton of stuff. (http://us.imdb.com/Name?Vance,+Courtney+B.) Courtney B. Vance had the privildge of being one of the coolest characters in one of the coolest movies ever -- Jonesy (the sonar guy) in The Hunt for Red October.

:eek: :D EW in Gandalf's pointy hat ROFL !!
hey, but what's this?????.......looking more closely he's tied it on under his chin...aaagh :eek:


And in RL the Ubergeek huh? (personally I liked the glasses...but the rest :confused: -reminded me of the geeks that fill the internet cafes in london)

I am glad that he has surfaced again but still busy...did wonder why he wasn't at the Oscars, when Sean was, and it sounds like the "ring" joke was aimed at him and the organisers expected him to be there (don't you have to say, like eons beforehand, that you are coming so they can get the seats etc all organised, not to mention all the hightened security??)

Off topic...prim reminded me that I have an extra copy of the 2003 diary (the spiral bound one -sort of got carried away buying them for FOTR afficionados late last year), printed in the USA but distributed in the UK. If there is anyone who doesn't have one, and wants it as a souvenir/memento or something, the first one to PM me with their name and address and I will send it on

back to topic..
after all this discussion about EW's other movies its about time I investigated the location of my nearest Blockbuster store and rented some...so, which one should I start with?

viola

p.s. ainon was it you who wanted Starburst,and if so, which issue?

Hello, Faculty! I'm back!! :D :D :D I have at last (and completely contrary to my nature!) gotten sick of debate for a while. And I'm feeling a bit under the weather... nothin' like the Faculty to cheer me up. :)

But my gosh, so much to catch up on! You ladies have been quite busy, as usual! :eek:

About the War -- I *gasp* haven't seen it yet. :( I've read that there's a fair amount of language in it... how bad is it, really? I'd really like to see it.

Frolijah in Gandalf's hat -- ROTFLASC! :p I was lurking when someone brought up that video, and so of course I had to go watch it again and do screencaps. :D I just love it -- even if he did tie it under his chin, Viola! ;) Actually I think that just adds to the general goofiness of the picture. :rolleyes: And despite the said goofiness, what a wonderful smile he has! Some people have criticized The Gap, but I find it absolutely adorable! I read in a fanfic once a perfect description of it: "...and yet that gap is so endearing, a little imperfection in a face grown handsome now." That sums it up quite well, dont'cha think?

Originally posted by Eldalieva
How can anyone be so dazzlingly, heart-stoppingly beautiful some of the time and be such an astounding geek the rest of the time!?

Ah, another "How Does He DO That?!?". Erendis, I think you came about as close I is possible to a solution. Although I've also seen pics of him both as himself and in other roles, without "The Wig and The Acting and The Camera Angel" where he still looks... what Elda said. (Now would be a really good time to use one of the swooning smileys, if I knew how...) :rolleyes: :D

Nothing else to comment on, except that tg, you MUST hurry with those "one-take" scene screencaps!

Glad to be back -- how long was I absent? A week? :eek: Feels like months. ;) ((((Faculty))))

:k

Tathar

Originally posted by erendis
I hope that was a rhetroical question, but in case it's not, I would answer by saying that it's a combination of The Wig and The Acting and The Camera Angel, all of which have been explored in this thread. :p

I've read your theories, Erendis, and while they do have merit, I have always felt that there is just some sort of mystical thing about Elijah's looks that is just more THERE when he is Frodo but is not necessarily NOT there when he is himself. For example, he was pretty heart-stopping on this December's appearance on the Today show in spite of a) No Wig (in fact he was balder than Matt Lauer at the time) b) No Acting c) No Camera Angels.

Driven by your comments and Ele's recommendations as well, I went to look at some stills from "The War" over at Elve's site. I found myself very nostalgic, because both the buzz-cut he sports there and the clothes reminded me of River Phoenix, and how beautiful he was in "Stand By Me," and what a sad end he came to. I'm grateful that Elijah seems to have a better head on his shoulders than THAT boy did.

Don't know TOO much about bohemian/beatnik origins, but I do believe that "bohemian" is a much older word...for some reason I'm associating it with the post-WWI "Lost Generation" that spent so much time hanging around Paris; that whole Hemingway, Scott & Zelda Fitzgerald crowd. It may actually go back even further than that, as a term used to describe those who live a somewhat counter-cultural, "artsy" lifestyle. Now "beatnik" I believe comes from the "Beat Generation" of the late Fifties and early Sixties, popularized by Jack Kerouac in "On the Road. These days, "beatnik" to me sounds more dated...I definitely associate it with that generation. Whereas "bohemian" is a word I would use to describe anyone who is part of an artistic/intellectual/non-mainstream lifestyle.

Edit: For anyone who's REALLY interested, here's an interesting etymology of the word "beat" as it is used in "beatnik:"

http://www.bluesforpeace.com/beat.htm

Wow Eldalevia. Even for the Faculty that is one obscure piece of research.
Heck. I'm impressed. :D

Originally posted by Eldalieva
Don't know TOO much about bohemian/beatnik origins, but I do believe that "bohemian" is a much older word...It's 19th century at least (as in the opera La Boheme). It comes from the idea that Bohemia (now the Czech Republic) was full of gypsies.

"Beatnik" is really just the label used for bohemians in the '50s, just as "hippie" was the label used in the '60s. Beatniks were supposed to wear goatees and listen to jazz and be :cool:.

BTW, Erendis, you don't need to be a Baby Boomer to know all this. I can assure you that you can be Gen X (and in Australia) and still have your brain colonised by this stuff if you are of an archaeological temperment, and have watched enough telly. :p

Anyway, to get back OT :D : There seems to be a growing concensus in this group that the look Elijah is currently sporting is strangely evocative of 1961.

Originally posted by shilohmm
I remember that the little girl in the Good Son did a better job than Macauley Culkin, but I can't remember if I thought she was anywhere near EW's league. That kid is actually Macaulay Culkin's sister, and the photo of the dead younger brother is yet another Culkin. IIRC, Macaulay's father strong-armed the studio into casting his kids in this movie by threatening to withdraw Macaulay from Home Alone 2 if they didn't. Another boy had already been cast in that role, but too bad for him. :mad: Elijah was probably lucky that it didn't cross Mr Culkin's mind that Macaulay could put on a dark wig and play both of the boys. :rolleyes: Sort of like The Patty Duke Show. (Sorry, Erendis. :p )

He's really managed to live a life without even the most obsessed, er dedicated fans knowing his itinerary. Good for him.
Yeah, but at what cost to himself I wonder. Was he forced to take up smoking, swearing, shear his beautiful hair, hide his beautiful eyes behind specs/shades, fuzz his ivory skin, and travel some horrific RP fanfic road in order to escape being mobbed and to escape being cubby-holed as the new Shirley Temple? :(