BunnieBugs: This didn't happen to me. I think that DVD's do sometimes just freeze - certainly if they're played on a laptop or computer like I do. I'm not sure about playing them on proper DVD players. But usually (in my experience) it doesn't happen consistantly at the same place. When you watch it a second time, just check if it still happens and if it does, then I'd go bring it back. Well, it depends on how bad the freezing really is.

Bunnie, my DVD did burp at that spot before Glads' Mirror scene, but I didn't notice if it did at the other place. I would like to hear from more people too before going to the bother to return it.

The SE is unbelievably fantastic. But I suspect I should discuss it in the Trilogy forum, so off I go. Suffice to say I adore the new Frodo scenes and am flabbergasted anew at Elwood's performance. :)

Thanks for the help! I'm really curious how many people have this same problem...

Elevensies, in the other scene I mentioned the "burp" was much less noticeable. And I described it incorrectly; it is the scene just after Gandalf arrives, and then it shows the tower (where the "burp" happens) and the next scene is of Saruman and Gandalf walking outside.

Interestingly, both of these transition spots are #12 on the disks. Hmmm... Not sure what that means! LOL! I see there is a website listed for tecnical help on the back of the booklet. I think I'll give that a try! :cool: (Edit: Oh, never mind -- that's only for the DVD-ROM.) :(

I HAVE IT! I HAVE IT! (Blossom performs Frolijah's new 'round the table in the Green Dragon' dance!)

The power finally came back on in time for me to get it yesterday, and hubby and I watched the film last night. Do you know, I actually think my obsession is rubbing off on him - I caught him muttering a couple of lines before the actors did!;)

I agree with you, Maeglian, about the new Lothlorien scene. Poor Frodo seems so alone there, and it was touching to see Boromir try to convince him that Gandalf's fall was not his fault, that he should not place this added burden upon himself.

Love the Green Dragon scene too, and the wood elves. One of my favourite new scenes is that short exchange between Frodo and Sam while they are camping on the banks of the Anduin, when Sam stresses how he wants to help Frodo, and Frodo tells him he can't - 'not this time.' Frodo looks so sad!

I have managed to listen to the cast commenary - I enjoyed the banter between the four hobbits there, it's so obvious how close they became. It was interesting to hear Orlando Bloom talking about Elijah, how he couldn't believe he was only 18 when they began filming. He referred to the rushes he had seen of the scene we will see in ROTK - the Cracks of Doom scene, and remarked how Elijah's performance there impressed him so much.

Have lots still to catch up on - there is so much material here, it's a goldmine.

Hope you got to the shop in time, Tg, and Luthiea - sorry you won't get yours until Christmas, but it will be worth the wait.

Bunniebugs, I did notice that little pause just once during the film - can't remember exactly where - but I have noticed it on other DVD's too. The picture 'freezes' for a couple of seconds before continuing. I have always thought it was some technical thing - something to do with 'chapters' ending or something like that- and have never taken much notice.

One other thing - I thought the National Geographic documentary was included in the collector's edition. Well I got the boxed set (The Pillars of Argonath are sitting proudly on our mantelpiece) and there is no mention of this - maybe it isn't in the UK package. Not that it matters much to me personally, as I bought it earlier in the year, but just wondered if they had changed that.

I think you're all right about the post count. It's just me being too eager to get to number 30.
:o I haven't the faintest idea how to do avatars anyway!

Must go. Bye for now.

Hello, Faculty and Harem members! I have been enjoying you all for pages and pages now. I have so little to add to your own observations, as I am still overwhelmed by the additions - which should never have been left out in the first place, IMO. Bother being too long a movie, an intermission would have improved bladder health anyway!

I do not have the SE DVD yet, but I got the SE VHS so I could watch it in my bedroom. What a story that was - can I not do anything without causing myself angst?! Went to Costco, got it for $14.69. Raining so hard when we exited that my friend went to get the car, and as everyone was waiting for their car in that downpour, the employees on front door duty chased us all off and made us make our way through huge cart obstacle courses to where we could load our cars. When I got home, I discovered that of all that I bought, the only thing I did not have was The One Movie! Went ballistic, of course, and only my friend's calm kept me from completely breaking down. Now, remember that I don't have a car, and am completely dependent on friends or cabs to go everywhere. And I'm (as usual) broke. She made me call Costco, and I sounded so frantic on the phone that the fine gentleman at Costco said to bring my receipt back and they would GIVE me another one. Now there's a man who has the valor of The Fellowship!! Bless my friend, she took me back down there, and I held The One Movie to my breast all the way home. Whew! (BTW, turns out it caused me to go 17 cents over-drawn in my account, so that kinda increased the excellent price of the video. :rolleyes: Oh well, I've GOT IT, and that's what really counts in life, eh?)

Sorry for the outpouring, but my friend thinks I am seriously deranged. Only you fine ladies (and gents) can possibly understand the trauma I experienced! Thanks for letting me vent!

The break in the VHS is in a different (and better IMO) place than on the DVD. Video one just suddenly goes blank (FREAK OUT! until you find out it's okay) and Video two begins as they approach the Mines of Moria.

***Spoilers ahead - is anyone still a virgin?***





I love everything new, and have no problem with the timing. I actually love the Video Two additions the most, but very much enjoyed the new Hobbit stuff at the beginning of The Movie. There is NO WAY IN HELL the passing of the Wood Elves scene in the beginning should ever have been deleted. What were they thinking??!! Not only are Frodo and Sam at their absolute BEST, but the sight of the passing, the Froshadowing of their own future, and THE MUSIC were far too important and moving to be left out! I want a CD of that music!! Haunting, the whole scene! (I don't think the fact that I'm a Wood Elf colors my opinion, do you?)

I had to erase a whole paragraph, as this is the Harem, not the right forum for my non-Hobbit opinions, but I also have this to say so far. I LOVE the way Gandalf, upon approach to Moria, called Frodo to him by saying "give an old man a hand" to give them an opportunity to speak privately. And I LOVE that he said he felt the power of the Ring growing, and that Evil from outside would be drawn to him because of it. Without that, it looked odd, frankly, that every evil thing (Watcher in the Water, Cave Troll Gordon, you name it) which had NO knowledge of the Ring, went after Frodo instead of anyone else. One would have thought the poor lad was what used to be call a "Jonas", drawing trouble to himself wherever he went without any reason.

Okay, that was long enough so that you all won't miss me if I'm gone for weeks again. Sorry, but like so many of you, I am so FULL of the new scenes - it's like a huge overdose of caffeine that one can't work off! And I still have more to take in. I agree totally with the lovely poster a few pages back (can't remember who) who was going bounce, bounce, bounce!

Again, I enjoy reading all your stuff so much. I'm sure there are many of us lurking out here without the time to get involved in every interesting thread. But you are all the best!

Sorry to double-post, Mods, but I just have to just this once!

I have spent hours trying to catch up in both the Faculty and the Harem threads, and they have both become so darn good, I forgot where I was for a moment. My apologies for greeting the Faculty as the Harem, althought it's not an insult! Both are full of wonderful and astute posters, and I know there are many cross-over posters like myself.

Thank Eru I didn't SWOON in my post!!

It must be that caffeine-like Extended Movie that made me lose my mind. I'm sure I had some grip on it before!

Blossom, great that you got hold of the DVD!

Stormyday, great to see you here and posting again! :)

And Carly, really! We wouldn't take that as an insult! And as for swooning, well..... ahem. I think several of us are not entirely strangers to that anymore. But enough of that already and on to......

Spoilers
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Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie

Peter Jackson gives some good insight into the new scenes entering Lorien. He says that Frodo fears that his companion's are looking at him because it is the thing he carries which stops Haldir from letting them pass. Not so much guilt over Gandalf's death. PJ says that of course his companions aren't thinking this, it's just what Frodo thinks they're thinking. I have been listening to the director/writer commentary to part of disc 2. About EE's quote, I was happy that they did at least emphasize that Frodo is feeling a lot of pressure there and that he's worrying that the others may be turning against him. That's angst, that's good. :rolleyes: I'd still like to cling to my own interpretation of what EJW is acting so heart-wrenchingly there, though, even after hearing PJ's commentary. (:rolleyes: at myself.)

Listening to the director's commentary is actually part very exciting, part very annoying, and part informative.

I can't believe he says he cut the little scene between Gandalf and Frodo once they get down from Caradhras "for pace", yet he tells how he fought the studio to keep the watcher in the water scenes in. I mean, that little Frodo/Gandalf heart-to-heart is soooo moving, and so very human in a way. Gandalf warning Frodo of evil being drawn to him, and trying to boost his self-reliance, and warning him that he (Gandalf) is not the mightiest power around. The contrast and the connection between the two in that scene is wonderful (And Frodo looks; - well need I say it? :o) And there's that lovely human touch of Gandalf asking about how Frodo's shoulder is, which receives a rather cryptic non-commital answer:"Better than it has been". I am so happy they did at least put this scene back in this DVD version!

That one, and the wood elves leaving ME scene, and the hiding form the SB's........ I will never understand how they could *not* include those 3 scenes in the original movie. A little less Gordon. a little less Uruk-hai, and there would have been place for them. Oh well..........

I think EW's acting is great in that new scene when they have entered Moria and the talk turns to Bilbo's mithril shirt (Frodo secretly looks a little smug) and than the shirt's value (Frodo looks surprised and awed) but EJW doesn't overdo the reaction in any way, it's definitely one of those less is more moments in his acting. And did anyone notice how he *looks* in the very beginning of that scene? If I had the possibility of screencapping, which I don't, I might well end up with an avatar from that......

But back to the director's commentary....

One thing I liked: PJ explains the reason for Gandalf mentioning "Smeagol" and Smeagol's sad story (and that he's gone mad) in the Moria talk to Frodo, because the fact that Gollum was once Smeagol will become of importance in TTT. That gives me even more hope for Gollum's near-conversion scene and the stairs of Cirith Ungol. I'm quite sure that will be in!

One thing I disliked: PJ makes it pretty clear that audience will need to watch this DVD in order to understand what Lembas are and their virtues, and the gifts given to the Fellowship members, even though he says both the gifts to Merry, Pippin and Sam will become important in TTT.


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End Spoilers

Yes, I know, there's a separate thread for the SE DVD, but all my focus is on Frodo related scenes and Faculty-style swooning anyhow.

How long is this post?? Probably far too long already. I'll shut up now. I have a touch of the flu and don't feel very well, but it has helped being curled up on the sofa with a blanket and the DVD and something warm to drink.

Hope this place livens up again as Faculty members tear themselves away from whatever they are doing to come post a little! :)

Thanks, everyone who responded to my question about the "burps" on my DVD. It turns out that this is the result of a "layer change," where the DVD player refocuses its laser onto the second layer of information. Perfectly normal, and I guess not as bad as some DVD's, where it happens right in the middle of the action and is really noticeable!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled boards. :D

Maeglian, that is a verrrrry interesting bit of info about PJ having to fight the studio to keep the Watcher in the Water scene (which IMHO shows waaay too much of said Watcher). I'm curious: who fought for what in the theatrical version? Now that we have the director's cut (yes, I know PJ doesn't like that term, but it IS), how about the New Line execs' cut? They're Tolkien geeks too, but have a large financial stake in the success of FOTR.

PJ is an enigma: he obviously loves the heart and soul of LOTR, but there's also within him this gore-and-creature-loving geekboy. Sometimes the two seem to be at odds, and the gore wins, to the detriment of the film -- if it means that sublime moments like the Passing of the Elves and the expansion of the Gandalf-Frodo relationship were cut.

Sometimes the two seem to be at odds, and the gore wins .... and sometimes it doesn't. Here's the very best evidence of that (so *spoilers* for the commentary follow!!).



I think we can forgive PJ & Co quite a lot after listening to this on the commentry: PJ, FW and PB says about the riverbank scene with Frodo, that there was much worry (from the studio?) about there not being a big fight sort of climax to Frodo's storyline in the film. So they scripted and prepared and even started filming a big action scene where Frodo had to fight off uruk-hai while trying to get away with the boat. :eek: :eek: :eek:

But then they realized it was all wrong, that Frodo's struggle was internal, that his fight was with the ring, and so instead they gave us the riverbank scene that we know and love and admire. :)


Edit:
OK, I just had to come back after listening a little bit to the cast commentary. It's quite funny and a little weird to hear them talking and joking about their performances and the filming experience and things that happened while everyone was down in New Zealand.

But anyway, remember us wondering whether "EJW can cry buckets when prompted"? The answer is no, at least not always. EJW himself mentions in relation to the mirror of Galadriel scene, that he felt it was embarrassing that he was required to shed a tear there, and he just couldn't manage that one tear. So he was struggling with this while Cate Blanchett was waiting patiently for the tear to happen.
Well, he made it in the end, as evidenced by those tearfilled eyes in the little snippet that has been added to the mirror scene.

Then again, does this mean he actually normally manages the crying without artificial means to help the tears along? That's quite amazing if so.......


End spoilers!!

Pearl,
Thanks for the Harry Potter info. Guess I'm a bit out of it. :o

Happy Belated Birthday, Squire's Lass!

I've been offline the past two days because our former Internet provider lost their contract and hubby didn't realize he'd sceduled with the new guys two days after the old one expired. :p After fussing around trying to fix the connection for twenty minutes, it suddenly occured to him, "Oh, I bet that's it." :rolleyes: We're all a little punchy around here due to the stupid flu/cold/misery we're all dealing with.

Originally posted by Goldenberry
***clap clap clap clap clap***

That's me applauding tg's post about Elrond the Curmudgeon and the Line of Doom.


I'll second that applause. Seem to be my night for being embarrassed - I made many of these same points on the "Did Frodo Fail?" thread way back when, but still never understood why people are so down on Elrond. :o For some reason I was irritated by the changes to the plot points, but didn't connect them back to being Elrond's attitudes. :confused: I confess to liking Elrond's scene where he's grumping about men, because I read it as personal pain and disappointment.

Extended DVD spoilers

His attitude also gives more logic to Aragorn's arc - Boromir's probably got a point about Aragorn having more faith in elves than in men, and going on what little I know of the Sil it isn't too logical - I was surprised when someone somewhere on the Extended DVD said the Elves were "an unfallen race" or some such. Unfallen in what sense, pray tell?

Totally agree with Maeglian about the Frodo and Bilbo scene hiding from the S-Bs, and about Elijah popping out in the pub scene, and about the elves. Cooool!

I have mixed emotions about the first Lothlorien scene, though. I miss Haldir saying, "She is waiting for you," and the new scene makes me feel like I'm missing something - why does Legolas say, "The Followship is in your debt"? I suspect that originally the Lothlorien elves fought off the orcs or something, but as it stands Legolas is thanking Haldir for taking them prisoner! I did like the angsty aspect of that scene - you could tell that the Fellowship wasn't blaming Frodo but he felt they were, and I liked Boromir understanding Frodo's feelings. Makes sense, really, because I suspect Boromir tends to blame himself for things, too! His whole speech to Aragorn in Lothlorien shows that he holds himself responsible for more than he should, so he really does understand what Frodo's thinking - and it's right that he could see the wrongness of that thinking in someone else, while being guilty of it himself.

I liked the scene on the River, too, where Boromir tells Aragorn that he's denying himself, that he underestimates men, because the Aragorn in the movie really does seem to share Elrond's "Men are weak" thing. Whoops, drifting.

I thought Frodo looked a bit unnerved to discover what the mithril shirt was worth, myself. :D

I'm trying to figure out why PJ doesn't want to do a bloopers reel for fear of impinging on the "tone" of the movies - but included the MTV sketch. :rolleyes:

End DVD spoilers




Sheryl

Originally posted by Maeglian
*spoilers* for the commentary follow!!).



I think we can forgive PJ & Co quite a lot after listening to this on the commentry: PJ, FW and PB says about the riverbank scene with Frodo, that there was much worry (from the studio?) about there not being a big fight sort of climax to Frodo's storyline in the film. So they scripted and prepared and even started filming a big action scene where Frodo had to fight off uruk-hai while trying to get away with the boat. :eek: :eek: :eek:
Let me just add a few more :eek: :eek: :eek: 's to that! :eek: Thank you :p .


End spoilers!!



I'm posting most of my SE comments in the Trilogy forum, but will expand on one here :) . I'd read the reviews that said how wonderful the audio and video were on this DVD, but didn't really expect to notice any difference on my little computer monitor. But, boy, was I wrong!! The visual, especially, was so incredibly improved I felt like I was watching a new movie even during the "old" parts. I caught details that had always been there but I'd never really noticed, even in the theater. And the settings looked so real that I came the closest I ever have to actually feeling I was "there" while watching a movie.

The most relevant part of that for this thread is that... You know how I've been impressed with Elijah's ability to show subtle emotions since he was a kid, and how that was the main reason that the moment I heard he'd been cast as Frodo I stopped worrying about the movies? You know how I've marveled over that same gift on the big screen, and in more screencaps than I care to count? Okay--take all that... and multiply it by ten--at least!! I have no words for it... [and, no, this isn't swooning, just boundless admiration :) ]. I feel like I should say something more, but I don't know what. I can't even give specific examples right now, because the overall effect was just so amazing.

--I was going to talk a bit about my trek to find the DVD, and the computer problems I ran into and out of--but that all seems anti-climactic right now. I'll just say that by the time I watched the movie straight through it was pretty late and I've been going on not much sleep today. So I think I'll go to bed and dream of DVD video technicians :) :) .

Pops out of lurkdom....

I looked back a few pages and didn't see this mentioned, sorry if it was and I just didn't see it..... but I thought it would of interest to you all here...





SPOILER

During the cast commentary Sean Astin mentioned that his little daughter apparently fell in love with Elijah at first sight. Awwwww...he said it was like the two of them had a 'mind meld'......:D
I thought you all might appreciate that! ;)


END SPOILER




dream wanderer

Thanks for that DW! I thought it was really cute too. And EJW said that he fell in love with her too. Doesn't it just make you love him all the more :)

Hello everyone!

I have had a rubbish day today, I am feeling rather fed up and wretched. We had a presentation at college and I couldn't get all my stuff printed out in time as the printers weren't working and I was all stressed out and I basically lost it and started crying in front of everyone which was very embarrassing, sap that I am :( :mad:

Anyway enough of that, onto the nice stuff,


Hi Carly - not seen you here for a while!

Meant to say in my previous post thanks to tg and Shilohmm for telling me how to turn off the email notification thing!

One good thing is my friend has taken pity on me beeing SE DVD-less so I'm going through to hers on Wednesday to watch it! Woo-hoo! I can't wait to see it it sounds amazing. :) :) :)

I was reading at another forum that EW says the F-word a lot during the cast commentaries - is this true? If it is then I would have thought that would have put the rating up a bit? Not that I'm that bothered, it's just weird the innocent face and the naughty words don't sound right together!

tg, that's funny I remember when I first joined Imladris back in April and found the Faculty Lounge as it was back then, one of the very first things I remember reading was a quote from you, (I think it was you anyway!) that was very similar to what you just put about how you stopped worrying about the Frodo casting when you found out Elijah was playing him! :)

Here's a sweet photo of EW for any of you who need cheering up, and even some of you who don't! Isn't he purty?!

http://always.ejwsites.net/images/hany_pic04.jpg

Feeling better already!

:)

DW: I just love that little tidbit. How cute is that? So is EW an honorary uncle or something?

I am still SEDVD deprived (yes, I own it, but no, I haven't had time to open the wrapping yet). These little gifts are keeping me going til I can find time to see the whole package. :rolleyes:

Sheryl: Your point about Boromir's taking on a lot of guilt is terrific! I couldn't figure out why Boz would be counseling Fro on the flet, but you made me understand. Thanks! :)

I was reading at another forum that EW says the F-word a lot during the cast commentaries - is this true? If it is then I would have thought that would have put the rating up a bit? Not that I'm that bothered, it's just weird the innocent face and the naughty words don't sound right together!

No - he doesn't use any bad language in the commentry I saw.

Sorry your day was so bad Luthiea. We all have them. I'm sitting here wondering if I'll be able to get home as all the roads seem to be flooded from work to home. Don't fancy the thought of spending the night at work :)

Originally posted by Luthiea
:) :) :)

I was reading at another forum that EW says the F-word a lot during the cast commentaries - is this true? If it is then I would have thought that would have put the rating up a bit? Not that I'm that bothered, it's just weird the innocent face and the naughty words don't sound right together!
:)

He says some things that are bleeped out..but its not during the cast commentaries. It is on one of the appendices..."A Day in the Life of a Hobbit"...he and Billy and Dom are doing a gag skit for the "Making of the Movie' cameras...all three of them do quite a bit of 'bleeping' for that.

dream wanderer

I guess I have a warped sense of humor, cause I just roared at that segment of the "Day in the life of a hobbit" feature. I thought for a minute that I was watching some very strange episode of the Osbournes.

I refer to that segment as "potty-mouth Frodo." :D

The funniest thing about the "potty mouth Frodo" segment was, to me, the fact that the only words that weren't bleeped out were things like "he" and "and." I don't think it's possible to use more cuss words per sentence than that!

What I've seen of the extras (the Fellowship of the Cast, A Day in the Life of a Hobbit, and about half of the cast commentary) makes me, if possible, more impressed with EW's acting than I already was. Realizing how much of the Shadow of the Past scene with Gandalf was blue screen, or forced perspective having to react to a character without looking at him, just impressed me to no end. I completely forgot that there were any special effects in that scene -- I was completely taken in by the acting. And to do that at age 18!

Ian McKellan and Orlando Bloom have some really, really nice things to say about Elijah's acting in the cast commentary, too.

And then there's the contrast between this extremely talented, mature-seeming performer and the kid on his first big trip away from home that comes out in some of the stories that the hobbit actors tell. (There are moments when the four hobbit actors are all commenting on scenes that I suddenly remember just how young Elijah was when all this was going on.)

Mel

I'm in a rush, but I wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who's been talking about the DVD here. Still haven't got mine, so your spoiler-filled discussions are the only the only reason I haven't gone totally mad from this waiting. :p

{{Luthiea}} Hope the DVD viewing will cheer you up plenty. thanks for trying to cheer me up (re: arrival time for DVD) but I think geographical factors will keep me from being that optimistic. :(


Okay, I'll just quickly post these:


SPOILER IMAGES - TWO TOWERS











spoiler space







http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-318.jpg

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-312.jpg

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-309.jpg

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-303.jpg






rabbit stew!!

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-298.jpg







END SPOILER IMAGES





If anyone has the time, all the Decipher card images can be seen here (original link posted by a very kind soul at CoE):

http://images.auctionworks.com/hi/5/5056/lotrtwotowers-1.jpg

Just change the number before .jpg

I'm sure there must be more Frodo cards out there. There are 365 cards altogether.

Hi there, Luthiea! So sorry about your rubbish day - as EE said, we all have them. Then I can't wait to get home and get online to my AU and all you sweetly familiar names. That usually calms me.

Assuming, of course, that several of my kids don't jump me about wanting something or being generally unappreciative or whiney at the same time. That does not calm me after a bad day. However, they are starting to understand when I say "Just let me have a little time on my computer to calm down. Then we'll talk it over at dinner."

Thank God for PJ and his long labour of love. And for Tolkien, who had one of those minds that God only grants us every so often through the ages. Bless them, and all in Middle Earth!

AINON!!!

What are you tryin' to do to us, woman? Those first two pics of Frodo are just pitiful. They make me want to give him a big hug and make things all better. :( I don't honestly know how I'm going to get thru TTT and ROTK. *Sob* Well, although you probably haven't noticed, I've been MIA lately due to the EE. So far I've only watched the movie 1.5 times (one regular and half with cast commentary). Also "Fellowship of the Cast" and "Day in the Life of a Hobbit". So far I love all of the new stuff, but my two favorites are the "elves leaving Middle Earth" and "Frodo, help an old man..." And you know, Elijah is so darn good that it's kind of scary that he's going to be even better in TTT and ROTK (per quote from Sir Ian M. "If you think he's good in this, wait 'til you see the third one.") I mean, look at those pics above. How can one person have so many different ways to convey angst and despair??!!!

As for the commentary, there are so many funny/interesting bits and pieces that I've found myself wishing later that I'd written all of them down. Guess I'll just have to watch a zillion more times so I can memorize them. :) Two that I remember:

1) Sean A. commenting on how often people ask him if Elijah's eyes are a "special effect." And Elijah saying people ask him the same thing, but that no, he only wears clear contacts for vision problems, not colored ones. I thought it was telling that Elijah even got slightly sarcastic with his "Yeah, I have these digital enhancers that I take with me everywhere I go." You just know he must be tired of such nonsense if he makes a remark like that.

2) Elijah talking about having "weeks and weeks" of sword fight training/practice and the first chance he gets (Weathertop), he has to drop his sword and fall down. I'm beginning to suspect that Elijah wishes he could have had at least one scene where he got to do something cool like kill a big orc with his sword (or defy the Nine at the Ford--are you listening, PJ?) I mean, since Gollum wasn't really there (some of the time?), pulling Sting on him wasn't the same thing.

Do any of you read "Always and Forever-Elijah Wood". They had a little blurb the other day, supposedly from a German publication, about one of Elijah's early "affairs of the heart". And if it's true it makes me want to travel back in time and sit a certain little brat in a corner until she's about, oh, 21 or so. Here it is.
Well, sometimes i've been turned down now and then, but the worst time was with Mary-Ann... We were just ten or eleven years old. There wasn't anything apart from holding hands, you know. Then I was invited for dinner over at hers. We had an excellent tomato soup for a starter--I easily can remember that. For the main dish, there should've been turkey or so. But we never reached that... Suddenly, after the soup, Mary-Ann stood up and said, "I don't wanna be together with ya. You're way too little." Well, shocked as I was, I got up and went home, totally embarrassed. You know, girls can be really cruel at times...
Can't you just see his little face (circa "Paradise" or "Good Son") when she was so rude? For his sake, I hope this one was made up by the German press. What is the matter with people? I went over to CoE to look for new pics, and they were making extremely nasty remarks about the photographer posing Elijah and Liv to make him appear taller. It makes you wonder how such tiny minds are able to function outside their playpens. Grrrr. I just hate the injustice and downright pettiness of it all. :mad: :mad: Well, I see I've posted way too much, so I'll quit. I'm off to watch some more TTT. See y'all later. Much later. :D

Aw, Louise, you big-hearted sweetie, you. Lij needs a gal like you!

Better a small man than a small mind. Infinitely better. And what a BIG talent!!

Ainon.... takes deep breath
I'm trying really hard to stay calm, but that card "Mind your own affairs"

:( :( :(

Angsty Frodo! You know, it occurs to me that if PJ can affect me this strongly by simply going back and adding a few deleted scenes.....

then I'm in big trouble for TTT. :( Not to mention ROTK. :(

Mel, it simply defies imagination that such a young actor could be so talented. It's amazing. :not worthy:

Carleenya: Just call me a faithful defender of those who are not here to speak for themselves. :) I'm always a sucker for anyone being unfairly treated. Especially nice hobbitses like Elijah and the gang. Except that I usually can't stay around such threads for too long, because I get too upset. It just makes me sooooo angry!!!!!! :mad:

The funniest thing about the "potty mouth Frodo" segment was, to me, the fact that the only words that weren't bleeped out were things like "he" and "and." I don't think it's possible to use more cuss words per sentence than that!

OMG, I cannot remember that. I did watch A Day In The Life Of A Hobbit, but have no memory of this scene. But then again, it was three in the morning by the time I finally stopped watching the DVD, after watching the SE twice (once normal and once with cast commentry) and watch the Fellowship of the Cast. I might just be forgiven. But it's a good excuse to go watch it again this weekend.

I finally got my DVD player - so no more watching it on my poor over-worked laptop! This is REAL viewing from now on. Weekend, here I come. :)

Originally posted by Louise
I went over to CoE to look for new pics, and they were making extremely nasty remarks about the photographer posing Elijah and Liv to make him appear taller. It makes you wonder how such tiny minds are able to function outside their playpens. Grrrr. I just hate the injustice and downright pettiness of it all. :mad: :mad:[/B]

What, were they making nasty remarks about Elijah, or about the photographer? I hope it was about the photographer, because I'll tell you what else I hated...the cheesy, pseudo-edgy, Annie Liebowitz-wannabe photo that was inside that issue of Entertainment Weekly. That sort of thing just makes me want to :rolleyes: And Liv Tyler? Liv Tyler on the cover? Liv Tyler inside? They make it look like she deserves top billing with Elijah Wood. I'm sorry, but if you got...say...100 people in a room who had seen FoTR multiple times, I'd be really, really surprised if even two or three of them had done so because of Liv Tyler.

Oh Ainon...that look on Frodo's face in "Seven We Had!!!" And somehow, the sight of that rabbit stew makes me very happy! I'm glad that part is in there!!!

[/delurk] I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that annie liebowitx-wannabe photos and BIG photos of Liv Tyler are just marketing :rolleyes:

New Line don't have any problem with us wanting to watch (and watch, and watch...you get what I mean) the movie, but they want even more people to go. So, appeal to the guys (beautiful women, sword fights, orcs, battles against all odds etc etc) and appeal to the women (aragorn and frodo) and appeal to older viewers (well established actors like Sir Ian and Christopher Lee).

That probably explains the potential *aberation* of the suggested fight scene at the river when Frodo was leaving :eek: :eek: :eek: :mad:

I adored the comment that sean astin made about his daughter falling for EW -bet it had something to do with his eyes...ever notice that their size, and innocence reminds you of very young children (think PJs kids in Hobbiton) and babies??

:D

As for the SE DVD -got it on the first day it was out, not that it did much good...have only seen the first 30 minutes or so, in about five sessions (:( ) so am like ainon and lutheia depending on the spoilers to tell what is good, and what to look out for...and I can't even say "roll on the weekend" :(

sigh..back to RL [/lurk]

viola :)

{{{Viola}}} -- Those little discs will be sitting there waiting for you when you have the chance to take a breather. Hope it's soon :( .

Originally posted by Viola Took
[/delurk] I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that annie liebowitx-wannabe photos and BIG photos of Liv Tyler are just marketing :rolleyes:

New Line don't have any problem with us wanting to watch (and watch, and watch...you get what I mean) the movie, but they want even more people to go.
Yep, I think you've hit it--we don't need any marketing. Before the first movie, most of the marketing was geared to Tolkien virgins, but there were some nods to Tolkien readers, too, because New Line wasn't quite sure how we'd accept it. Now that they've reeled us in, they can put their marketing funds where they'll do the most good (as long as they keep giving us little tidbits like the SE and the TTT books and... :p )

And, I've been thinking--I don't watch a lot of TV so maybe I'm an exception in this, but I never saw a single advertisement on TV, or in the newspaper, or even a display in a store, announcing that the SE DVD was on its way. If I didn't hang out in places like this, I wouldn't have known anything about it. Do you think that's because the marketing gang knew the people who were going to buy it would know about it, and people who didn't know about it probably wouldn't buy it, anyway? (And who's Annie Liebowitz--or do I not want to know? :o )

I adored the comment that sean astin made about his daughter falling for EW -bet it had something to do with his eyes...ever notice that their size, and innocence reminds you of very young children (think PJs kids in Hobbiton) and babies??
We've had several stories and comments over the months about how kids just universally seem to gravitate toward Elijah--eyes, openness, casualness... probably a combination of things. I'll repeat my favorite story, since it's now lost in the mists of Imladris. It's from a tabloid that usually finds the worst things possible to say about celebrities, so IIRC we figured if they said something nice it must be true. The story said that during one flight, Elwood was in first class, and a couple of little kids from the "rest" of the plane discovered him--I don't remember if they actually recognized him, or if they were just naturally attracted to him. A flight attendant came over and asked him if he'd like her/him to take the kids back to their seats, and he said no, it was perfectly okay for them to stay, and spent the rest of the flight playing games and singing with them. I still think that's one of the best "Awww..." stories I've heard. :)

-------------

So far, I've watched the extended movie "on its own" once, and think I might do that again before listening to any commentary, as there's a lot of dialogue people have been talking about that I missed (I think maybe I was too busy looking--at Middle-earth and its inhabitants--with that fantastic visual display). I may be lying a bit low on the boards until I get a chance to listen to at least the cast commentary and maybe a couple of other things. I don't mind spoilers for the movies themselves; I figure I already know the story so can't have the actual plot spoiled for me, and if they make any changes to it I want to know ahead of time, anyway. But the lines that have been posted from everything the hobbit boys are involved in are so hilarious, I want to hear the rest of them without too many spoilers :D !! So if I'm scarce for awhile, you know where I am. (Well, actually, the same place I usually am--in front of my computer monitor :rolleyes: .)

tg: thanks for repeating that story about EW on the plane. He seems to be genuinely nice to his fans. There's a similar story in the Entertainment Weekly piece; he is reported to "amiably sign autographs" and have his picture taken with fans.

I'm sure you are right about the marketing strategy. Entertainment Weekly has to have its OWN strategy, too! They want to sell magazines! (Well, they made at least one sale this week they would otherwise not have made!:D )

And Annie Leibowitz is a very famous photographer: she famous for making photos of famous people!

Oh, and I HAVE seen ads for the SE DVD on TV. Saw one last night while watching ER. Nearly makes my heart stop, because they begin with poor bedraggled Frodo!

Viola- well sweetie, you're going to watch it with me in a couple of weeks anyway and I am searching out a good wine to go with it!!! Maybe we can get Azalea to be there too- the three in force! :eek: (Azalea has been lurking on the site and is my little sister)

And, I've been thinking--I don't watch a lot of TV so maybe I'm an exception in this, but I never saw a single advertisement on TV, or in the newspaper, or even a display in a store, announcing that the SE DVD was on its way. If I didn't hang out in places like this, I wouldn't have known anything about it. Do you think that's because the marketing gang knew the people who were going to buy it would know about it.
There's been no ads here either tg which really puzzled me at first since NZ is LoTR mad. Really. You could easily be tricked into thinking Tolkein was really a NZer we have taken the whole Middle Earth thing so much to heart. But I think you are right- they have a target audience for the SE and know the word is already out. So why waste an advertising budget on the hard core who already are one step ahead anyway? :D
The magazine and tv ads here have all been re TTT and seem to be aimed at newbies.

Cadmo-only one bottle of wine...for FOUR disks??? -for the sisters' night in, with all that to watch, it will be at least 3 bottles of wine, and all non-FOTR-ites banished!!! :D :D

tg-loved that story of Elwood, fits in so well with all the other things we know of him. I'd love to meet him.

Annie Liebowitz? -she is an american photographer, as Vita S-B says photographs celebrities...she often does the special spreads in mags like Vanity Fair, and there is a fair bet, that well known photos of celebs that do the rounds are by her.
She has a knack of capturing something of the person, that others miss. (she once photographed John Cleese (a fish called wanda, and monty python) upside down, hanging off a tree...sounds weird but it actually worked :D )

As for the ads, yes they are in the UK -I've caught a couple of good ones, but they are on late at night (after 11pm) with PJ himself explaining the difference from the original version. nothing about the special boxed set with the bookends tho...but HMV had them prominently displayed and was playing the music from FOTR when I went to get my copy :)

....needless to say I dawdled a bit :D -It would have been perfect if they had been playing the movie on the giant screen they have in the video section *sigh*

viola

Hi, all!

I've had a few very trying days. I can so relate to those difficulties you told us of, Luthiea. ((((Luthiea)))))

Anyway, this means I have hardly had time to watch the SE much, and moreover I think I'm developing an internet writer's block. This post is an attempt to do a little something about that, at least......... I haven't had time to read the SE DVD thread. So apologies in advance if any of these things have been mentioned already:

Spoilers for and comments to the SE DVD
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I have been watching part of the cast commentary to see what they say about all my favourite beautiful Frodo scenes. The strange thing is that the four hobbit actors go on about jokes and funny reminiscing and general gabbing on this and that while watching the most beautiful of scenes. Like in the wood elves scene - I should think it would be strange for SA and EJW to see themselves looking so amazingly angelically beautiful; - yet the commentary is EJW happily going on about some game that the others fooled him with, inventing it as they were telling him about it.

I don't really expect him to wax lyrical about his own looks and acting, of course, but still it would have been nice to get a little information about what he (or the others) think about this; - about this amazing and as yet unexplained transformation from the happy grinning 18-year old to that otherworldly character in the movie. I am no closer to solving that riddle after having watched "A day in the life of a hobbit", either. You see EJW having the feet and ears and wig put on, and walking around in costume, and it is not by any means Frodo. It's *so* Elijah Wood, smiling and joking (and cursing).

As it is in that little scene in the Green Dragon. But I actually *like* seeing Elijah there, not Frodo. The fact that there is that tiny imperfection, this small slip in his portrayal of Frodo, just makes all the rest of the perfect in-character acting stand out as the true achievement it is.

But I am annoyed at that scene anyway; - the only chance they had to explaining why Sam defers to Frodo, serves him food and calls him "mister": - That he actually works for Frodo: Instead that mystery just deepens, since Frodo gets beer and jokes happily with Sam and the gaffer and others.

One thing I *did* like in the cast commentary, though, is this little exchange between the 4 hobbit actors as the camera cuts to Frodo reading under the tree in the Shire in the beginning of the film.
It goes about something like this:

- "Here we go; - here's the money shot!"
- "Who's that?"
- "Who is this shady character?"
- "He's up!"
- "He was in Deep Impact."
- "Are you sure?"

I actually think it's EJW saying that about Deep Impact, but I'm not quite certain about it. It's funny anyway. Like Deep Impact is ever going to be the film he's remembered for!


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End spoilers

Hello everyone,

Thanks everyone for being so nice! You are all lovely, my internet family! :) (((Faculty)))

(((Maeg))) - I hope things are better for you today. Hugs.

Oh I can't wait to see the SE DVD - I'm seeing at a friends on Wednesday, but I expect it will just be the film we'll watch, not any of the other stuff (or if any, just snippets) cos I'd be there all night! Needless to say I can't wait to see Elijah's bits in it, even if I have to wait till Xmas!

It was Children In Need Day over here yesterday, I had a couple of friends over and we were watching it on TV. They kept switching from the main programme over to the fundraising happening here in Scotland, and Billy Boyd was on! He was talking to one of the Scottish TV presenters, but my two friends were talking so loudly I couldn't make out what he was saying! :(

Oh my friend returned my video of FOTR, I had to watch it today, it felt like I'd not seen for months! I asked her what she'd thought of it - she said 'It was good, but it ended so abruptly! I was just getting into it and it was finished, he never destroyed the Ring!' :eek: :p I asked if she's going to see TTT but she said she'll wait for it to come out on video. Oh well, you can't win them all.

ainon - those pictures are great! Aw, their poor little faces. Herbs and Stewed Rabbit! Excellent. And that 'Frodo's cloak' one - I thought that was a rock at first! Very good, PJ.

Louise - thanks for those quotes. I read that at A&F aswell - if it's true I bet 'Mary Ann' is kicking herself now! :D

Prim, Viola - Hi! Good to see you!

Now I'm missing Wild Goose, haven't seen any of her subject titles in a while it seems...

Expect incoherance, guys, I've got the cast commentary going, and I've been spacey lately anyhow.

Hubby just brought in my new copy of The Two Towers, the one with Frodo and Sam on the cover, as he handed it to me he said, "I don't know why you wanted this particularly one - all you can see is their backs, it could be anyone - it could be their stand-ins, two strangers off the street, who knows who is in those capes and wigs." :rolleyes:

I still want the Fellowship of the Ring with the Frodo TTT pic. Haven't been able to justify it yet... But really, disintegration of the other one is inevitable, don't you think? Another copy would certainly get use. ;)

spoilers for the SE DVD I guess.

originally posted by Maeglian
I don't really expect (EW) to wax lyrical about his own looks and acting, of course, but still it would have been nice to get a little information about what he (or the others) think about this; - about this amazing and as yet unexplained transformation from the happy grinning 18-year old to that otherworldly character in the movie.

Oho, I thought I'd read this somewhere - I went looking for it in the Harem. :rolleyes: Well, I said I was spacing out. They Harem is talking about how frivolous the cast commentary is about Frodo's looks as well, got me to thinking about this quote, from the cast Commentary during their fight with the Cave Troll. Sean Astin says how jealous he is of Orlando Bloom's good looks (among other things), EW insists, "Hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder."

I think that must be a bit of a mantra with him sometimes - he can't see himself as being as stunning as many see him as being, or he'd be a hopeless jerk I'd think. OTOH, I expect he has to know he's very attractive - although you never know. I've known some good looking actors who really didn't believe they were good looking. :confused:

I liked the way the cast appreciated each other's acting - and I was peeved that PJ didn't say more about EW's brilliance. :D And I cracked up with the author's commentary, where both ladies loudly renounced any responsibility for the "Nobody tosses a dwarf" line. ;)

It's been verified how the "Noooo" at Gandalf's fall was done, as I believe Ariel has already mentioned - I'm puzzling over the pre-Moria scene with Gandalf and Frodo, where Frodo kind of tucks under Gandalf's arm. I expect it's done like the exchange of hat and staff in Bag End, but it's beautifully done I'd say - not to mention how beautiful Frodo looks there. ainon's book Frodo in the flesh, and I believe Ariel titled a shot pulled from that scene "The Ultimate Swoon Pic" or something like that (I grabbed it from her post in the Harem :D ).

I loved Orlando Bloom and Sean Bean on the commentary track, as well as the Hobbits, and usually JRD. Christopher Lee tended to tell me stuff I already knew, so while I generally agreed with his observations I didn't find them that interesting. :p I didn't enjoy Ian McKellan's observations as much as I expected to - of course, he got off on the wrong foot with me by liking the "Gandalf giving up smoking for toffees" idea. :rolleyes: And I loved discovering that McKellan did actually bang his head in Bag End - I'd long puzzled over how they did that incredibly realistic crease on his forehead. :D

Hmmm, guess I'll go repeat myself to the DVD thread...

((((hugs)))) to those with Real Life issues lately. I've still got the miserable cold, but the kids are doing pretty much better. Not the best combination. :eek: Fortunately hubby's around to pick up the slack - although he doesn't know why I'm sitting here on the Internet instead of taking a nap...

Sheryl

Originally posted by Maeglian
I don't really expect him to wax lyrical about his own looks and acting, of course, but still it would have been nice to get a little information about what he (or the others) think about this; - about this amazing and as yet unexplained transformation from the happy grinning 18-year old to that otherworldly character in the movie.

I've been thinking about this a lot myself. I haven't watched the whole "cast commentary" so there may be something that I've missed, but we do get bits of insight from outside the four hobbits. At one point Orlando Bloom (who is wonderfully enthusiastic about everything!) rhapsodizes about how amazing it is that Elijah took on this role when he was only eighteen. It's a lovely commentary. Later, Ian McKellan, when talking about Gandalf, says, "Gandalf realizes that even he does not have the resources of this little...angelic hobbit." I think Elijah's looks and talent are something they have just come to accept...after all, they have all been working on this project for three years now! And maybe, like myself, they just can't find the words to describe it all. I've tried over and over again to understand and explain how astounded I am by his looks and by his incredible talent, and I always find myself falling short of what I want to say. And I think that's in part because some magic really does happen when Elijah becomes Frodo, and it's not at all something you can explain with words.

Mysticism aside, there's a very cute bit in the commentary where Ian McKellan recalls asking Elijah if it bothered him that now everyone would know he bit his nails. And Elijah, according to Ian, just smiled and said, "no."

Edit: Just read your comment above:
Originally posted by Shilohmm
...he can't see himself as being as stunning as many see him as being, or he'd be a hopeless jerk I'd think. OTOH, I expect he has to know he's very attractive - although you never know. I've known some good looking actors who really didn't believe they were good looking.

I also wonder if maybe he doesn't see himself as stunning at all. And the reason I wonder about this is because he certainly doesn't conform to the accepted standard for male attractiveness, especially not in film. I brought this up in the Harem today, and Chica Chubb kindly posted a few selections of reviews that commented on how beautiful Elijah was and how his luminous appearance enhanced the role. But that is just a handful of reviews...whereas MANY reviews I read of FoTR when it first came out made some mention of how "hot" Aragorn was. And that's just it...Elijah is simply beautiful...he's not "hot" or "gorgeous" or "handsome," at least not in the typical male Hollywood star way (just for the record, I think he's all of those things!). But "beautiful" is not necessarily an acceptable way to describe a man, so maybe Elijah doesn't hear it that often, and maybe, therefore, he doesn't see himself that way. I'm really rambling here, but this is quite an enigma to me, and I'm trying to puzzle it out.

Hello.

All of us lucky enough to have the SE DVD have been very busy over the last few days.

I think I have now watched all of the 'extras'. All very fascinating, I must say - but still not quite hobbity enough for me. I would have liked to see more 'filming of the filming', especially where Frodo is concerned. I still have not listened to all of the commentaries yet, though I think the cast one will remain my favourite. I did have a quick jump through the directors/writers commentary with PJ, Fran and Phillipa, and was a little disappointed that they didn't mention EW much. I went to the 'banks of the Anduin' scene, where Frodo is weeping, and expected to hear them raving about his performance - but there was nothing!:mad: The only time they praised him was when Fro and Boromir were getting out of the boats, and Peter said he liked the way EW and Sean Bean played out this scene. That said, there is still a lot of their commentary I haven't yet heard, so perhaps I'm being too critical too soon.

Loved 'The Fellowship of the cast', and 'A day in the life of a Hobbit'. Regarding the swearing - I remember reading somewhere that they cut the bad language from the UK version to allow them to retain the PG rating here - what we see in that scene with EW, Dom and Billy is Elijah just 'mouthing' the words. Unless you can read lip movement you can't tell what he is saying, though it's obvious he and Dom were teasing Billy there.

I also loved that story Dream Wanderer mentioned about Sean Astin's daughter and Elijah - sounds like love at first sight! :k Louise, hope she treats him better than Mary-Beth, or whatever that little horror's name was -'too little' indeed!:(

Luthiea - Hi. Sorry to hear you had a bad time at college the other day.:eek: You poor thing. :k Keep thinking of Wednesday, when you will be watching the SE of 'Fellowship' with your friend - that should keep you smiling!

Carleenya. I really felt for you when you said you got home and couldn't find your Video - but at least it ended happily, thanks to that nice man at Costco.

Eagles' Eyrie - congratulations on getting your DVD player, and Bunnie, I'm happy to hear you sorted the burps out.
Ainon, thanks for the great pics of those cards - lovely, angsty Frodo!

Viiola, Cadmo and Azalea - enjoy your little get-together in a couple of weeks' time. Now be good, and don't get too drunk with all those bottles of wine - we don't want Frodo going all out of focus!

Maeglian. Like you, I love the new Lothlorien scene with Haldir - and the exchange with Boromir. EW never ceases to amaze me - his performance there is wonderfully subtle - you can 'feel' his sense of isolation as the others glance towards him. So, for you, Maeglian, here are some caps of that scene - oh and also from the Moria mithril scene you mentioned. Enjoy.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/FroGandalf.JPG

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Mithril1.JPG

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/LothlorienEvil.JPG

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Froguilty3.JPG

and this one just because I like it:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Fropillow.JPG

Where is deluby? Sitting at her computer doing lovely new gifs of these new scenes for us, no doubt.

Bye for now.

:D Blossom FYI -just got off the phone with Azalea (sis) ...the wine and a blurred Frodo will not be a problem.

We'll just have to watch it again :D :D

viola

oh, and going back to our thread from eons ago...EW's blinking..I've been fixated on it watching the SE (thanks guys ;) ). He really does blink very infrequently (more than five seconds between blinks, much longer than other characters) and with a very pronounced blink, compared to the very rapid blink that most people do, and which is therefore not noticed, unless someone draws your attention to it.

a personal quirk perhaps??

Almost a double post, but I just popped over to The One Ring site, and there's a report there that John Rhys Davis has been seriously injured in an accident while filming in Croatia. He's in hospital, apparently with a broken arm and head and chest injuries, and will remain in hospital for about a week.

I'm sure we all wish him a speedy recovery.

Viola, it must be lovely having two sisters to share your obsess... er, I mean interest with, although I guess you don't all get together too often.

Bye again.

Excuse me Blossom.

FYI I am the normal one in this family.

Azalea and Viola however need help. :D


OOOYYYY! This is Azalea here and Prim is on my laptop! I need no help...all three of my therapists say I'm 'just fine'.:p

Regarding EW, stunning actor but Mr Bloom ROCKS!Prim - stop hitting meeeeeee!;)

from eldalevia
But "beautiful" is not necessarily an acceptable way to describe a man, so maybe Elijah doesn't hear it that often, and maybe, therefore, he doesn't see himself that way. I'm really rambling here, but this is quite an enigma to me, and I'm trying to puzzle it out.

This is probably very true . :rolleyes: Ironic really.

edit: thanx Sheryl.

From Blossom:
So, for you, Maeglian, here are some caps of that scene - oh and also from the Moria mithril scene you mentioned. Enjoy. "Enjoy" is too weak a word, Blossom. I love and adore all of those. Isn't it amazing..... whether acting relaxed and composed or frightened, pained and angsty he just manages to look so breathtakingly beautiful. Thank you!

I hope he never visites this site if he's trying to keep his feet on the ground when it comes to people's reactions to his looks in this film. He'd be *so* embarrassed, I guess. :o But nothing will make me believe that he doesn't *know* about this kind of reaction; - it's far too widespread around the net, and after all he also does have crying fans coming up to him and trying to express something about it too. I can easily see the difficulty in giving any sort of comment, though, that wouldn't risk sounding conceited or taking fan admiration for granted; - or not understanding the fans and therefore thinking they are "strange"...... So I can understand EJW's own silence on the subject of others' opinions on his looks and acting, and how he impacts the audience, I guess.

Which doesn't explain *how* the transformation happens and how he manages to become Frodo like he does.

Why the others (actors and director) doesn't comment further than they do on this, though, has puzzled me more. But it may perhaps be that they in a way came to take it for granted during those 15 months. Or it may be that, as Elda says, they have the same difficulties as us finding the *words* to describe it. There is one point in the cast commentary where Orlando Bloom talks of how awesome Elijah's acting is, and he seems to fumble a lot for words,- and then he ends up referring to some clips he's seen from the Mt. Doom sequence and how fantastic EJW is there.

After all, using "fantastic" and "incredible" and "unbelievable" and "stunning" all the time tends to dampen the real meaning of those words.....

I can also understand why PJ doesn't comment more specifically on EJW. It seems to me that he is very careful not to single any of the actors out for special mention or praise beyond a few very brief comments. Seeing that this was so much of a team effort, it makes sense that the director doesn't rave on about how fantastic one or a few of the actors are, which would leave the others in the background.


Now, the fantastic thing about the SE DVD is that despite the fact that I had read scene - by - scene descriptions, and had devoured every single spoiler I could find, and had seen many spoiler pics, the film *still* held so many gems to enjoy and do faculty style swoons over, several of them totally unexpected too......

Frodo in the Moria mithril scene, I plain *love* him!!
The angstyness of them being denied access to Lothlorien and Frodo's reaction; - unexpected treasure!
The dialogue between Frodo and Sam while watching the wood elves; - *sigh* and *sob*.
That little snippet directly afterwards, with sleepy drowsily smiling Frodo talking about feather pillows; - who'd *ever* have imagined the film would include such a gift to haremites everywhere?
The extended "Bilbo's trolls" scene; - *painful angsty shudder*
The scene between Gandalf and Frodo before they reach Moria.... (Maeg thinks of suitable words of praise and admiration and can't find any that are strong enough).
And the hiding from the SB's; - I need other words for "beautiful" and "deeply moving", because I think I have used these words now to the point of exhausting their true meaning!!

And so on and on. :o

And this just makes me bounce all the much more with anticipation for TTT. Despite all the spoilers and speculation and pictures and clips in previews and trailers, I just *know* there will be those totally unexpected Frodo scenes, beautiful or angsty or deeply moving or exciting moments and dialogue that will be surprising gifts and that will take all our breaths away.

I can't wait!!!

Primrose, Azalea and Viola: You ladies crack me up! It must be so great being able to have fun with this with close family. :)

Sheryl, hope you get better soon.

And hugs to all in the Faculty. Thanks for being you and being here and being such great people!

((((((((((Faculty)))))))))))))

Originally posted by eldalieva
And I think that's in part because some magic really does happen when Elijah becomes Frodo, and it's not at all something you can explain with words.

Mysticism aside...

I don't think that's mysticism. I think there is a "magic" to it, and it's the magic of love. While we all love and respect EW here, I'd say, the love we have for Frodo is something quite beyond that - a much more intimate type of love. And we do see those we love as more beautiful than we would otherwise. Which I think is why EW as Frodo is generally more beautiful than EW as himself. Our love for Frodo infuses him with extra beauty.


Originally posted by eldalieva

I also wonder if maybe he doesn't see himself as stunning at all. And the reason I wonder about this is because he certainly doesn't conform to the accepted standard for male attractiveness, especially not in film.

Totally agree. Which I suspect is part of the reason I'm attracted to his looks - he isn't the standard "Hollywood hottie," most of whom bore me. I think of them as "pretty boys," kind of brainless peabrains, although I'm sure some of them are interesting and nice guys in real life. :D Well, I do like Orlando Bloom and Viggo Mortensen, who're both closer to the standard Hollywood look. But as a rule I don't go for the big name lookers.

Further, I was talking to a teen-aged friend today about LOTR, they've got the Extended DVD but she hasn't seen it yet, I said something about how Frodo looks just beautiful in one scene, she said, apologetically, "I think his eyes are creepy."

:eek: :eek: :eek:

He hears a few comments like that, add in the constant "He must wear contacts or something" remarks, and I can see him not believing in his own good looks, sure. Or thinking that his good looks are merely his eyes, which appeal to some. I dunno.

Of course, every actor (and model) of sense realizes that much of their good looks are due to make-up and camera angles; few try to achieve that standard on a day-to-day existence and wouldn't want to. But I do wonder if EW realizes how brilliant some of his work as Frodo is, or if the "Frodo factor" kicks in when he's watching the movie, so he sees that character on the screen as beautiful.

Some author - C.S. Lewis? - said he wished he could read his own stuff as if someone else had written it - i.e., without seeing it as his - because he wondered if he'd enjoy it or not. It was the sort of thing he liked to read, but he couldn't enjoy it because he wrote it. Or maybe Lewis is the one who said that, in heaven, authors will be able to enjoy their own fiction as if someone else had written it. :p I should think actors would have that same problem, in spades. FOTR is probably the type of movie EW would really go for even if he wasn't involved - since he was involved, can he enjoy it for itself, or is he always aware of the background stuff while making it and/or criticising his own performance?

Thanks for the pics, Blossom!

I had something to say about Maeglian's post, but I think my brain is leaking because I lost it. I need a nap. :o Guess I'll toddle off.

((((((((Faculty)))))))))

Sheryl

Well, I've watched the SE movie twice now--once "cold" and once with the subtitles on (partly to see if it would work for my mom, and partly because I could tell from what's been posted here and in other threads that I'd missed a good deal of the dialogue the first time through). And I've listened to the first half of the cast commentary, which I hope to finish either this afternoon or tomorrow evening. So I feel a bit safer reading "spoilers" now :p , although it might be awhile before I get to any of the other content.
Originally posted by Maeglian
Which doesn't explain *how* the transformation happens and how he manages to become Frodo like he does.

Why the others (actors and director) doesn't comment further than they do on this, though, has puzzled me more. But it may perhaps be that they in a way came to take it for granted during those 15 months. Or it may be that, as Elda says, they have the same difficulties as us finding the *words* to describe it. There is one point in the cast commentary where Orlando Bloom talks of how awesome Elijah's acting is, and he seems to fumble a lot for words,- and then he ends up referring to some clips he's seen from the Mt. Doom sequence and how fantastic EJW is there.
Edit: Sheryl beat me to the submit button by one minute! So some of this becomes, "Me, too." But, well--Me, too :) :p !

I kept these two paragraphs together because I don't think either Elijah or anyone who worked with him can put it into words--in this role, anyway. I can't remember the exact quote, but Elijah said that after he got up in the morning and got into costume and got to the set, Frodo somehow just "came out." From the way he's talked about it, it doesn't sound like he's had that experience playing any other character. Which just makes me think back to the very beginning of the old "non-swooney" thread at Imladris when we talked so much about Elijah being born to play this role, and (some of us, at least) about how it must have somehow been "meant to be". After how many posts, and how many pages, and how many theories, and how many words--and three websites!--we still can't explain it. I do believe it's a "mystery" in the theological sense (definition of mystery from one of my theology teachers--something that's infinitely knowable; no matter how much we know about it or how much of it we're able to explain, there's always more.) Of course, each human being is a mystery in that sense, but once in awhile something happens that reminds us of that. IMHO, ever since last December 19, Frolijah's been one of those. -- Some "newer" posters might not remember when that name was actually invented--as a way of saying that the unique (and I mean "unique" in the strict sense of the word) merging of this character and this actor becomes more than a combination of the parts.

As far as the other actors, etc.--a lack of words, I'm sure, is part of it. As Meag said, Orlando "fumbled" trying to find words, and even the words he did find were of extreme admiration and even wonder, so what he wanted to express must have been beyond that. Regarding the other hobbits--most importantly, IMHO, they'd gotten to know each other so well that they were more reminiscing over memories than doing a lot of commenting on the movie and the acting (which I didn't mind listening to at all :D ), and also, as someone pointed out, it's hard to gush with praise for someone when you're sitting in the same room. Someone also pointed out [sorry for not going back and finding just who said just what--it would be a bit overwhelming :o ] that in the "final product" there would have been an attempt to balance what was said about various actors, and I wouldn't be surprised if that didn't somehow play into whose commentary was used for different scenes.

It's not that others didn't notice, IMO. PJ said there was "magic" even on Elijah's audition tape. And before FotR came out, when some people were worried about the changes in the ending from book to movie (especially Aragorn "letting Frodo go" instead of Frodo slipping off unnoticed by anyone but Sam), one of the scriptwriters (don't remember if it was FW or PB) said there was no reason to worry. She said that there was a very moving scene at the end, and that Elijah showed Frodo's emotions so perfectly there that he would "break our hearts." Which, I guess, he did.
And the hiding from the SB's; - I need other words for "beautiful" and "deeply moving", because I think I have used these words now to the point of exhausting their true meaning!!
Is angst when the character doesn't know it's angst even more moving? The catch in my throat came with, "Bilbo, have you been into the Gaffer's home brew?" when we know Bilbo's trying to say good-bye, possibly forever. *sob* I've become fascinated by book-Bilbo over the last couple of years, where I hardly used to pay any attention to him--such a complex character while seeming so simple. Anyway, this exchange in the movie made me think of Bilbo's comment to Gandalf that, "I've said good-bye once, and couldn't bear to do it again." -- It would be very true to Bilbo, IMHO, to consider that conversation in the movie a "good-bye" even though he doesn't tell Frodo he's leaving, and now I'm wondering if that's how it "really" happened? In the book, Frodo does know beforehand that Bilbo's planning to shock all the relatives by using the Ring to disappear at the Party, but he seems to be in the same position as movie-Frodo regarding Bilbo's actually leaving: "He talked about it so much, but I never thought he'd really do it." And "both Frodos" are young and naive at that point.

-- Some of my favorite things in the movie (and, I hope, in the other two) are ones that make me realize I'm seeing someone else's interpretation of the book, and it comes from a slightly different angle than my own--but rather than contradict mine it adds another dimension. [Hope that makes some sense.] That moment between Bilbo and Frodo is a new addition to that list.

An important one for me all along has been the "perilous Elves." PJ's Galadriel isn't the same as mine, but his version has certainly added new dimensions to how I think of her. -- And while we're on Elves, I like the additions to Lothlorien, except for Haldir's line showing the Fellowship Caras Galadthon. The lighting on his face and the way he says the line are both "softer" than I would like (and, IMHO, the camera angle is awful for Craig Parker), and ever since I saw the first still of Caras Galadhon all I've been able to think of is a Hildebrandt painting (BTW, I have seen a couple of other people make that comparison, so I guess I'm not the only one to react that way :rolleyes: ).

I do miss "Come. She is waiting," with that flash of the eyes specifically at Frodo. I've been trying to think of a way the two versions could be combined, but they seem to be mutually exclusive. They both involve a focus on Frodo that he finds difficult, or at least unsettling. But in the TR the focus is that he's the one who's wanted--which is closer to the book, where Haldir and brothers are expecting Frodo and know about his mission, but have to think for awhile before letting the rest of the Company come along (Sam does anyway, of course :) , before being invited). OTOH, in the SE the focus is on Frodo and what he bears not being wanted. I suppose Haldir could have halted them because of the "great evil" and that part of the scene could be played. Then, after Haldir talks with Galadriel, he could come back and do the, "Come. She is waiting." (It's in the wrong setting, but I bet that could be fixed. ;) ) Anyway, it's interesting to see that PJ shot both versions--both focusing on how Frodo is "set apart" from the others, but in very different ways.

I was glad to read what people have said here about PJ's comments on the scene (I haven't listened to that commentary, yet)--that Frodo's pain is the result of his thinking his companions are turning away from him, rather than from guilt over Gandalf's death. I'm glad to have that stated "definitively" because it confirms what I felt about Boromir there--he's trying to be supportive to Frodo but he doesn't understand what Frodo's going through. He knows what it's like to lose a comrade so can empathize with that, but he doesn't understand the effect of the Ring itself, which becomes clearer and clearer as the story goes on.

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One last thing, because this is a place where I can say almost anything and not be considered insane :rolleyes: ... I want to know if anyone else has seen what I have on the golden-hued "Frodo in Osgiliath" poster--the one where he's kind of gently holding the Ring. I resized it so that it printed out quite nicely on 8.5 x 11 paper (suitable for framing, indeed :cool: ). Seeing it larger like that, I noticed that on the right-hand side of the picture, the lines of the stones in the ruined wall seem to continue down a ways through Frodo's cloak. I can think of three explanations for this: 1. I'm hallucinating, which is not beyond possibility; 2. It's just something that was done to make the poster look more "artsy"; or 3. OMG! He's starting to fade! After all, it is his left shoulder that's somewhat transparent, and that's the "first to go," even when Sam later sees the light shining from him as he's sleeping. I mean, I don't want to sound like someone seeing the face of the Virgin Mary on a potato chip, but does anyone else see what I mean? :confused:

Maeglian -I should be working but hey..what the heck!

I was going to say that I was the normal one but the ones that think they are normal are the ones you have to worry about the most (delusional??)

seriously though, I have three great sisters, :k

and its no wonder that when we are on the phone, which we are quite a bit at the moment (RL), the talk invariably turns to LOTR, and it seems impossible to get off the phone in less than an hour!! :eek: :D :D

needless to say, if we tried to post all of that here would be no room for anyone else ;)

tg -the "Virgin in the potato chip" just cracked me up (ROTFL) -unfortunately having not seen the poster I can't provide a useful answer:(

(I'll have to wait for someone else to be more helpful)

viola (work calls)

Originally posted by tgshaw

I mean, I don't want to sound like someone seeing the face of the Virgin Mary on a potato chip, but does anyone else see what I mean? :confused:

I copied it and zoomed in, and you're not hallucinating - the stonework does show through his shoulder. My vote is for "artsy" - but I do like your "starting to fade" idea. :)

That's the only one I really think I'm going to HAVE to print out (although it is not the only one I felt I had to grab) - fits nicely on 8.5 x 11? :cool:

Sheryl

Sorry, Viola--I guess it would be a bit much to ask people to scroll back through ? pages to see what I'm talking about :o . I have the poster in a fairly large size on imagemagician, so rather than try to resize it to save bandwidth, I'll just post the link. What I'm seeing is a little more evident on my 8.5 x 11 printout, maybe because it's a little larger or maybe because the color isn't as dense, but I think it's still visible on the original:

http://www.imagemagician.com/filelist.php?large_view=frodo143a.jpg

Originally posted by shilohmm
- fits nicely on 8.5 x 11?
Yes--After you trim off all that extraneous stuff on the bottom about the movie and all :p .

tg, I get a "Problem logging in!" message when I click on the link, plus this. You were directed to your account, but you were not successfully logged in. Please try closing your browser down, then logging in again. If the problem persists, please contact Support
I think I have the poster on my hard drive, though, so I'll just go look for it. :)

Well, this is really strange - I'm having to reload half the time, and my post showed up on the thread and then disappeared. :confused: Wait, nevermind, started KD up in a new window and now it's behaving. :p

Anyhow - the poster in question is on this thread, page 18, with those annoying words ;), and then again on page 19, larger and without those annoying words. The second one was posted by tgshaw, appears more than halfway down the page. If you go back one page from here you can change the page number in your address to get you there (or if someone smarter than me posted this they'd provide a link :rolleyes: ).

tg's post with the pic was on 11-04, for those of you who don't use standard pagination. (Hi, ainon! :) )

Sheryl

In the bigger picture version, you can see the wall through his right sleeve too (left of picture). It's just harder to spot because the sleeve is a lighter color than his cloak. So I'm not sure your theory is correct, tg. Unless he's fading on both sides? Due to stress. I was sure I'd saved deluby's gif of the "wood elves" scene from the EE, but I can't find it. Does anyone remember if that was before she lost her space at Image Magician? If so, deluby, I'd appreciate it if you could post it again. :)

Elijah really does almost border on the unearthly in that scene. I hope there will be a similar scene in ROTK on the way to the Havens, except that Frodo will exude the shining light. Surely Frodo will have the Elvish light around him at that point? For eyes to see that can? Please, PJ? Thank goodness it's only about 1 month to TTT. "It's hard, it's cruel hard!!!!"

Tg and Sheryl, thanks for very insightful posts. :)

From Sheryl:
FOTR is probably the type of movie EW would really go for even if he wasn't involved - since he was involved, can he enjoy it for itself, or is he always aware of the background stuff while making it and/or criticising his own performance? That one should be added to that list of questions we had for EJW, right away. I really wish there was some way to make him sit down and answer all of those. Plus the myriad more about Frodo and LotR we'd come up with if we ever had the chance to actually getting some answers.

About him not looking like the standard Hollywood swoon-boy, well, isn't that one of the reasons he got the part as Frodo? If I'm not completely misremembering, PJ sat down to see that self-promotion video EJW had sent him because Fran Walsh said she'd seen him in the Ice Storm and he had a really interesting face. (Or........ is that right? It seem odd now that I put it down in print. She probably commented on his acting, not his looks.)
EDIT: No, she did actually talk about his face, it's just been confirmed over in the harem. There's quite a lot of discussion and topic syncronizity going on just now!

From Sheryl
I can see him not believing in his own good looks, sure. Or thinking that his good looks are merely his eyes, which appeal to some. You *really* think there's a possibility he doesn't know about the lips and the skin? :o :D (Maeglian ducks several non-swoony trouts aimed at her head, and decides to get on to safer ground).


Tg, I'd go for "artsy" in the poster also. It's more prominent on his left hand side, but there's also some blending of his shirt and the walls on the other side too (Oh, Louise already commented on that - sorry).

Viola, I'm really curious, what flower name has your third sister picked? Will we ever meet her here?


Spoilers and comments on the SE DVD!
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Finally, some points about an unexpected angsty scene in the SE DVD, and one known new agsty scene that didn't work quite as well as expected:

Did anyone else shudder at Ian McKellen's delivery when talking to Frodo about Smeagol in Moria: "Smeagol he was called - before the ring found him; - before it drove him mad." The look on Gandalf's face there, part disgust, part horror..... Combining that with the knowledge we have from PJ that by RotK "Frodo will be far gone and acting strangely", and Andy Serkis' statement about how Frodo watches Gollum to see what he himself will become further down the line......
This gives me major, major shivers! (Mostly in anticipation, but also a little fear that they'll take the "ring madness" portrayal too far).

OTOH, I was a *little* bit disappointed with that scene on the riverbank at night when Sam tries to get Frodo to eat, and tells him he wants to help him, only to be told that he cant help Frodo, "not this time". I actually thought Sean Astins's acting worked better for me there than EJW's, and I don't really know why. I somehow can't really get an angst overload out of that scene, contrary to all expectations. It's just, I don't know....... I am actually wondering whether Elijah doesn't overdo the suffering look there by a tiny fraction, or whether he just looks a tad too healthy for one who hasn't eaten nor slept recently, and who is weary with the pressure of the burden he carries.

Do any of you care to analyse that scene some more, or make better angsty sense of it than me?


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End spoilers

[delurk] -due to brain overload from work *yuk*

tg-the pragmatist in me says the fading in the poster (thanks to you and Maeg for the directions -I finally found it on my page 19) is *artsy* to allow the scene with Sam and Gollum at the bottom -the wishful side of me is impressed that the fading is on the same side that Frodo got speared by the ringwraith (and Gordon) -coincidence??:confused:

did anyone else notice, with the two original posters in tg's post that the background is the same? (I can just see Elwood posing for the picture in character, morphing back into EW,racing off to get changed, coming back, morphing back into Frodo, and doing the next picture...bit like acting really)

Maeg...I am sad to report that sister 4 is not as keen on LOTR as we three are. She is really into a scottish author called Dorothy Dunnett, who wrote two book series, on Lymond (13th century) and the House of Niccolo (14th century) ...needless to say, Prim and I are also very keen on her books :D

It's probably just as well that at least one sibling isn't obses...oops, interested, in LOTR. Mum is already rolling her eyes at any mention of it :eek: :D

...not that that will stop us ;)

viola

I don't believe it!!! (Victor Meldrew impression again, Blossom!)

I just spent the past hour typing up a huge post and I've gone and lost it! I pressed for it to submit and it took ages but then it came up 'page expired'. I'd copied what I'd wrote as this has happened to me before, and really narks me off but for some reason it wouldn't let me paste it again!

I am so annoyed :(

Counts to ten slowly...

I'll try and do it again...I'll try and remember everything I'd put in my vanished post. Will paste the final post in Word, just in case :D

First of all I wanted to say I hope John Rhys Davies recovers soon, that was a shock to hear he'd been in a serious accident :(


Maeg, that's one of the things I love about Elijah aswell, that he's not some muscle-bound hunk. There's too many of those about, bleurgh :p

Here's a quote from an Elijah interview with Christopher Goodwin -

Of course, Wood's size helps: he's barely 5ft 6in and is delicately framed, which lends him, well, a Hobbity kind of demeanour. He doesn't have the over-pumped arms and upper body of most young Hollywood actors. His teeth, thankfully, have not been homogenised by a Beverly Hills orthodontist: they are a little crooked, a bit jagged, and there's that appealingly boyish gap at the front. A wispy attempt at a beard lurks about his chin and over his upper lip. And he's a fidgety kind of chap, buzzing with pent-up energy. He smokes, he bites his fingernails, and he chews gum nonstop. But there's something more than that. Wood has this eerily pale, translucent skin out of which shine eyes so intensely blue that the effect is startling.
That's what I love about him, he's so real.

I remember one television interview of him that was discussed before, in Imladris (it was possibly Kathy Lee and Regis) where someone told Elijah that he was a 'handsome young man' or words to that effect, and he looked shocked when they said that! Does anyone remember that?

I got the Sunday Express today, as there was LOTR features in the magazine, including an interview with Elijah.

Here's some EW quotes -

About acting -
"I think the only trouble is that I'm perceive as quite young. It was always difficult through my teenage years to do things that are older and more mature. I just keep working. I read scripts, enjoy the scripts, go for a role, get it. Keep working and so on and so forth. And I have been really lucky to maintain that. So in retrospect I can look at it clearly and see that I am incredibly fortunate to continue to work the way that I have and continue to pave my way forward. I think a lot of it has to do with the fact that when I was younger I was never really part of particularly child-orientated movies. They were kind of child roles in adult films. So I never got pigeon-holed as a child actor in that sense. I think that was very helpful"

About the Oscars, part une -
"I knew going in to it that we weren't going to win. So, my feeling wasn't...you know I didn't walk out going, '****! We didn't win'. I literally sat in the car with Peter on the way there saying, 'You know we are not going to win', and he was like, 'We are not going to win but it's cool. It's weird that we are here.' We felt like some weird gang from New Zealand arriving at the Oscars and invading the whole process. It was kind of cool for us. We didn't expect to be there. And it was a real honour to even be acknowledged, so it was cool".

Oscars, part deux -
"Where we really got screwed, to be completely honest and if we really want to talk about being screwed, is we didn't get the Oscar for best adaptation and this is a book that was so very difficult to adapt to a film format. And the screenplay for this movie was so good. And to deny that work, to deny how difficult that was, to me, is unfair."
Here, here - well said :mad:


About Frodo -
"Yeah, they'll hate him for what he does to Sam. But they'll probably pity both of them, too. It's such a sad thing. Sam really picks up the slack because Frodo physically can't do anything, he just collapses. And there is this amazing scene where Sam picks up Frodo and Frodo is essentially dying and he says to Frodo, 'I can't carry the Ring but I can carry you.' It brings me to tears every time I see it. It just gets very sad. I've seen bits of film three, there is a rough edit, but I haven't seen the whole thing. But I think it's going to be the best movie. I'd say film three, The Return of the King, is where Frodo is stripped of all his innocence and purity. His relationship with Sam becomes severely strained in the second film and comes to a head in the third when one of these two seemingly inseperable friends denies the other. That's when you see Frodo is not really Frodo anymore."
:( This is going to be so hard to watch


About Frodo and Sam's relationship - the cover of the magazine actually bears the title 'Are the hobbits Sam and Frodo really gay' which kind of annoyed me, like it's a big deal or something they should have just put 'Elijah Wood Interview' instead, anyways -
"They have a very close relationship that sort of transcends friendship. Those feelings are probably there and they probably exist. I wouldn't say that it has anything to do with homosexuality but it is certainly one possible interpretation of it. I don't think Frodo or Sam, in the way they are portrayed, either confirm or deny it. But I personally don't really see it from that perspective. I just see them as being completely tied to each other in a very personal and emotional way. Sam sort of tends the earth and comes from a very servile background, and he kind of dotes on Frodo, who helps and guides Sam. They compliment each other in terms of where they come from. That's how I see it anyway."

So there you go, enjoy! (My fingers are really aching now! Off to bed!)

Luth x

Wow, Lutheia trhanks for those exceprts they were fascinating.

I'm bummed out about the fudging the gay issue though. EW would have done better to just plain scotch it though perhaps he is being politically sensitive and not wanting to alienate anyone.
But I hate hate hate the sexualising of this relationship. Even if Frodo or Sam (one or the other) was a woman I would hate it. It seems to me that part of the import of the story is their agape love for each other.

What is it about this and last century that automatically requires all deep emotion to be sexually based.:confused: :mad: How dominated we are in our sexual thought processes is clear by the very fact I'm having trouble finding words to describe the depth of Sam and Frod's relationship without leaning towards "lover's" language or "brothers" language. We just don't really anymore have a term or phrase to describe a deep, long lasting mutual affection/love. Or if we do I can't think of it.
OK. Rave over.Phew

I was never really part of particularly child-orientated movies. They were kind of child roles in adult films. So I never got pigeon-holed as a child actor in that sense. I think that was very helpful"

Well, I believe the Faculty had already come to this very conclusion way back when. Now we have it in black and white. We are one smart crowd. (EW should employ us for PR or something .. ;) )

Originally posted by Cadmo
But I hate hate hate the sexualising of this relationship. Even if Frodo or Sam (one or the other) was a woman I would hate it. It seems to me that part of the import of the story is their agape love for each other.

I am SO with you on this. Some of my first, most impassioned posts at Imladris were on this very subject. I was lamenting the fact that English does not provide words which 'distinguish' between types of love - parent / child, brother / sister, lover, friend, we only have the one word. And, IMHO, our culture has an incredibly misguided and often hurtful desire to turn far too many expressions of love into something sexual, because it reduces love to a common denominator that is easily understood. I think true Agape love, as expressed in the Sam / Frodo relationship, is just so incredibly GIVING that many people are threatened by it, and wish to reduce it to something more understandable.

A little excerpt from that old post regarding apage love in LotR:

The difficulty for us is that Agape love, the highest and most noble type of love, is also the hardest for us to display and accept in our daily lives, and the most difficult to sustain (because it does not depend on ‘feelings’.) Since it is often displayed in the books, particularly in the relationship between Sam and Frodo, some have difficulty relating to it without bringing some aspect of the more easily understood forms of love into it. Also, since Eros is one of the simplest and most easily understood forms of love, we tend to read it into almost any display of physicality or, as some have discovered, into any physical description that could conceivably be associated in our minds with Eros! In other words, we can’t separate ‘feeling’ (physical and emotional) from love.

Agape is a distinct and different form of love than the others – and thus it both transcends Eros and makes it irrelevant. In all other types of love there is some expectation of return, some gratification received or reinforcement sought even if only through the giving of love. Going back to the definition of agape love as ‘seeking the welfare and betterment of another regardless of how we feel’, Agape love transcends the selfhood of the one who has this type of love for another, being based not on feelings but on a deep commitment to the welfare of the other.

Spoilers and comments on the SE DVD pretty much this whole post
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originally posted by tgshaw
Is angst when the character doesn't know it's angst even more moving? The catch in my throat came with, "Bilbo, have you been into the Gaffer's home brew?" when we know Bilbo's trying to say good-bye, possibly forever.

I think it may be, sometimes. I think sometimes the best angst involves the reader knowing something the character doesn't, anyhow (sometimes the character is suffering, and the reader knows the suffering is made worse by something the character thinks is true but isn't - that's often more angsty for me). I suspect it's partly because then the reader is "creating" the angst - it's the old cannard about getting the reader involved, making the reader think his way through the story makes everything more real and more powerfully moving. :)

Or maybe it's got more to do with the fact that anticipation in the viewer's mind is more powerful than what the author actually supplies, but that wouldn't be the case with the Frodo and Bilbo party scene, because we do know what Frodo will experience, roughly, having seen those parts of the movie before...

I totally agree with your reading of the pre-Lothlorien stuff, right down to missing "Come, she is waiting" and thinking that shot of Craig Parker does terrible things to him. :D

originally posted by tgshaw
I'm glad to have that stated "definitively" because it confirms what I felt about Boromir there--he's trying to be supportive to Frodo but he doesn't understand what Frodo's going through. He knows what it's like to lose a comrade so can empathize with that, but he doesn't understand the effect of the Ring itself, which becomes clearer and clearer as the story goes on.

Ooo, yes - I agree with this, too, but hadn't thought it through like that. I think Frodo is suffering from the loss of Gandalf too, of course, but at that moment he's feeling as if he's evil, and Boromir simply doesn't address that aspect. Great point!

Originally posted by Maeglian


OTOH, I was a *little* bit disappointed with that scene on the riverbank at night when Sam tries to get Frodo to eat, and tells him he wants to help him, only to be told that he cant help Frodo, "not this time". I actually thought Sean Astins's acting worked better for me there than EJW's, and I don't really know why. I somehow can't really get an angst overload out of that scene, contrary to all expectations. It's just, I don't know....... I am actually wondering whether Elijah doesn't overdo the suffering look there by a tiny fraction, or whether he just looks a tad too healthy for one who hasn't eaten nor slept recently, and who is weary with the pressure of the burden he carries.


I got a shiver out of the McKellan line about Smeagol too. And the riverbank scene doesn't work right for me either, although I'm not sure why. At first I thought it was because Frodo tells Sam, "You can't help me" when all Sam's doing is trying to get Frodo to eat - book Frodo recognized Sam's worth, especially when it came to feeding him. :p I mean, it's not like Sam's trying to make decisions for him or whatever - he's just offering the support he can, and Frodo... well, Frodo comes off as whiney to me here. Maybe you're right, that Frodo just doesn't look stressed enough to be doing these tragical lines, I dunno, but it just doesn't work for me.

Sean Astin is very *there*, though, so maybe it is that EW just wasn't at the top of his form in this scene. :eek: Hard as that is to imagine... ;)

Luthiea,
Thanks so much for typing in the interview bits! But I'm not so sure how I feel about this one:

originally stated by EW
(Frodo's) relationship with Sam becomes severely strained in the second film and comes to a head in the third when one of these two seemingly inseperable friends denies the other. That's when you see Frodo is not really Frodo anymore.

That unnerves me a bit, particularly after the scene on the riverbank. Maybe it's my Sam-lover coming out here, but I want to see the closeness of the two friends, I want to see them very solidly together before I see Frodo betraying that friendship. It was in Two Towers that I really got a grasp of those two as very close friends, where I saw Frodo appreciating Sam as much as Sam appreciated Frodo, and now I'm afraid that PJ will start having them at odds before I've even seen them at their best together. :p

And of course, part of the horror of Frodo turning on Sam is that he's held together soooo long, treated Sam well despite the Ring's influence while under all this stress - it would not be so shocking when he snarls at Sam if he hadn't been so consistantly kind prior to that. When he does snap, the Ring clearly does possess him and make him act out of character, and Sam can see that.

I dunno. Book Frodo is so profoundly gracious, not just with Sam but with Gollum - I don't want to lose that aspect of Frodo. :( Part of what Frodo accomplishes is not just to take the Ring - but to carry it all that long way while still remaining mostly Frodo, still being considerate to those around him.

In the riverbank scene Frodo comes across as a sulky kid, almost. Not really, but... I can understand why he doesn't eat in the Two Towers - there's something called "appetite fatigue," for one, where people on a limited diet just can't stand to eat the same food anymore, which makes sense when they're so depending on lembas, but that shouldn't have been an issue while they're still on the river, unless Lembas is the only food they took along (not likely, I'd think, while they still had the boats). And besides appetite fatigue, Frodo's under so much stress in the Two Towers, and he's exhausted.

First time through seeing the riverbank scene I was thinking, "You have this huge trip before you, and you're refusing food?" He can't force himself to sleep, but he could force himself to eat, and he should have. :p I guess I feel that anyone who's worked himself into such a tizzy at this point, over breaking away from the Fellowship, isn't going to show the strength of character I want to see in the next few movies. Which is plain silly, on my part. :p

I dunno. But I do know the riverbank scene struck me wrong somehow - not as wrong as Sam's line when he wants a knife instead of (or in addition to) his rope, but just not quite right.

On the other hand, maybe my real problem with it is that it just says the same things said in the boat at the end (many of the lines parallel) - it's just that the boat scene is so much much more powerful that this scene almost undercuts it, and I don't like that. :D It's the only new Frodo and Sam scene that strikes me as redundant. I'm not crazy about the Green Dragon scene - in that it's sooo far from book canon - but I don't think it seriously detracts from any other scene, or says in a less effective way something the original version said better.

Hubby and I were grumping about, "well, he should have squeezed the Gollum bit back in" (which is the only part of the riverbank scene either of us really wanted - I kind of like Boromir telling Aragorn to get his act together, but I don't like Aragorn's snippy last sentence and hubby doesn't like any of it), and when Frodo and Bilbo hide from the Sackville-Bagginses, and I said the scene with Bilbo and Frodo before they get to Moria, hubby agreed "So long as you mean the Mithril shirt scene, too" - which actually I didn't :p - and we were about to say that would have been the right version until I remembered the scene at Gilraen's Memorial, and (duh!) the "Passing of the Elves." Hubby wants the Midgewater Marshes with Aragorn singing, too I don't feel so strongly about that, we both like "The Departure of the Fellowship" but neither one of us think it was that critical...

So I guess overall we did like most of the new stuff. And I really should go cut this into the DVD discussion thread.


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End spoilers



KD's been acting up for me tonight, too, Luthiea, definitely I'm storing my posts to Word before trying to post them.

Sheryl

Problems with the new Frodo/Sam scene? Hmmm, well, I didn't have any, really. I guess that to me it was obvious that Frodo was trying to screw his courage up. And he was desperately afraid--so much so that he felt sick to his stomach. Haven't you ever been so worried about something that you knew if you ate anything it would come right back up, and you would feel even worse for it? That's how I think Frodo was supposed to be feeling. I know that when I have been severely emotionally and mentally stressed (my father and mother both extremely ill in the hospital, and then father's subsequent death while mother was still very bad off, brother acting like he was going to crack from the strain), eating was something I almost didn't think about. And when I did, it was more out of habit. And sleeping was very difficult, too. But there were times when I just felt too stressed to eat, and all the "knowing that I should eat" in the world didn't help. And having someone else telling you you looked bad, should eat something, etc., didn't help either. So maybe I just identify with Frodo in that respect. My stress always goes to my stomach too. Frodo was just trying to tell Sam, in the gentlest possible way, that some problems sort of transcend the usual panaceas--"you'll feel better after a good night's sleep/after you eat something", etc. Well, no, I won't, but thanks for caring. :(

As for the "everything is about sex" thing, I think we have Freud and his ilk to thank for this. While I'm sure there were some people before Freud who thought this way, he was the one who said "This is how everyone feels and it's perfectly normal to want to sleep with your parents, etc." Sometimes I think that Freud's own sexual proclivities have been forced on the rest of modern society by his disciples. They go around trying to make people who don't feel that way think they're just "repressing" their "true" feelings. Hogwash. Freud was an extremely weird little dude, and I don't feel that I, as a human being, am in any way defined by his somewhat warped view of the psyche. To Freud, everything was about sex, but that doesn't mean it's true, not by a long shot. It's too bad more people can't think for themselves rather than relying on others to tell them how they do/should feel, but that's life. IMHO, of course.

Cadmo and Narya,

I so agree with all your points - and Narya, your "love types" discussion was brilliant! I think people do latch onto eros because it's easy to understand, in self and in others. But of course this identification of love with eros also means that love is often viewed as something that naturally fades over time. Perhaps if people idolized one of the more permanent types of love instead of eros things would work out better, although there are certainly failures of love when it comes to phileal love and familial love and any other type short of agape love too.

There is a sense where agape love is the only "true" love, because it's the only love that doesn't depend on what it gets, yet the phrase "true love" is tightly connected to romantic love, which is firmly grounded in eros, which tends to fade over time... Argh, hate that!

I was kind of irked by EW's fudging of the relationship, too, but I think he did pretty clearly say that isn't how *he* sees it, while refusing to condemn those who do see it that way. I'm reminded of Ian McKellan's comment during the scene where Frodo wakes up in Rivendell - McKellan initially says he told Sean Astin to grab EW's hand because that's how it is in the book, but then he drifts off to how it would mean so much to gay people if that's what SA did, so I expect EW was intuitive enough to pick up that there are gay people who want to see Sam and Frodo's relationship on that level, and he probably would feel funny condemning that perspective.

Me, I feel free to say that ain't what Tolkien had in mind, and further, that I think it cheapens the relationship. I've seen friendships between straights and gays cheapen and ultimately end because sex entered the equation - too many people do see a sexual relationship as one where the partner "owes" them, which is part of the reason I really fight against that concept when it comes to Frodo and Sam. Their loyalty to each other is not based on what they can get out of the relationship, and anything that obscures that fact is right out, IMHO.


Originally posted by Louise
And having someone else telling you you looked bad, should eat something, etc., didn't help either. So maybe I just identify with Frodo in that respect. My stress always goes to my stomach too. :(


Ditto, but nobody has to count on me to get to Mordor. :p I was just trying to talk my way to a conclusion there. Really, I think my problem with it is that so much of what the scene "says" about Frodo and Sam is said again - and better - in the scene where Sam runs after Frodo in the boat. But all I can say for sure is that the scene doesn't work quite right for me - I'm still iffy on why, though.

I think your point about Freud is true - there does seem to be pretty strong evidence that he was messed up, and that what he viewed as sexually normal was similarly skewed. I might even throw Kinsey into the mix - his studies have been thoroughly discredited, first because, even if they were what he'd claimed they wouldn't have represented the average population, but secondly because it turns out such a fair percentage of his interviewees were in the prison population, sometimes put there for sex crimes. Oh, yeah, average guys there. :rolleyes: But people will still point to his surveys as credible, even though they were quite thoroughly discredited within the scientific community within a year or so (as are most of the subsequent studies - for some reason it's tough to get accurate info on that kind of thing :D ).

Sheryl

I hate lost posts!!:( :(

Anyway, I just wanted to comment on the Frodo / Sam at the Riverbank scene. I agree with Louise on the not eating thing. But I saw another subtext in it. Frodo can't accept Sam's help anymore because Frodo knows he is leaving and Sam doesn't. I see Frodo, in effect, preparing himself for managing without Sam - and simultaneously feeling so badly about how Sam will take it that he cannot accept his service any longer. He is separating himself emotionally before the physical separation arrives - or he will never muster the strength to do both at once. I thought the way Frodo wouldn't look at Sam until he says 'you can't help me, Sam' as representative of this sense of impending separation. Frodo is already looking at Sam across a great divide due to this knowledge that, the very next day, he will be leaving the company. This becomes, in a way, Frodo's farewell, releasing Sam from his service...

This, of course, only makes Frodo's relief when Sam refuses to be left behind in the boat scene more poignant...


BTW, Louise, your "Freud was an extremely weird little dude" made me LOL - I SO agree!!

originally posted by BLOSSOM
Where is deluby? Sitting at her computer doing lovely new gifs of these new scenes for us, no doubt.Where was I for the last few days? Well, let's just say ever since tuesday I've been http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/bigeyes.gif and http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/drool.gif over the new DVD set itself, and at the same time I was http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/banghead.gif and http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/bawling.gif because my computer just won't play the new DVD. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/hammercomputer.gif http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/throw.gif http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/cry.gifhttp://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/cry.gif I was sooo exited when I got the new DVD on tuesday, rushed home and poped it into my computer, and then:"error: unsupported format" :eek: :confused: :mad: I re-installed the dvd-rom and tried everything, but just couldn't find the problem, all my other DVDs worked fine on my computer. :confused: Just as I was hoping against hope that exchanging for another copy would solve the problem, I read a piece on TORN saying that few others have reported the same problem, and it's due to a limitation in the programming of the internal firmware of the drive models. 3 DVD ROM drive models have been reported not being able to recognize any of the discs in the DVD set, and mine, unfortunately, is one of those drive models. And there are currently no fixes available for the problem at this time. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/cry.gif I just bought that new DVD ROM for the august LOTR dvd release 3 months ago, there's no way I can buy a new drive now, and even if I do get a new one, what if it doesn't work with future dvd release again? http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/dontcare.gif At last I decided to go to the electronic store and "rent" a DVD ROM (buy now return in a couple of weeks). I know it's not a right thing to do, but I can't think of any other way. :( Hopefully I can watch them excessively till close to Dec. 18th and then I'll have TTT to tide me over.

So "rented" a dvd rom on friday and I've been watching the DVD set basically non-stop for the whole weekend, and finally finished all 4 discs including commentaries and stuff. whew! http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/knockedout.gif
Seems everyone is busy watching them too, only 3 new pages since tuesday. :p


RE: The fading pic Tg was talking about, I think it's a publicity shot, which means the Frodo part was 'cut and paste' then blend in with the background. When you work with photoshop or paintshop, you can feather the edge of the piccy when you cut them out and make it a bit transparent so it would blend in with the background nicely thus archive the fading effect.
Also, that poster(22 in. x 35 in.) is on sale at allposter.com for $6.98 plus S&H.

Originally posted by Louise
I was sure I'd saved deluby's gif of the "wood elves" scene from the EE, but I can't find it. Ummm, I don't think I've done any gifs from Extended Edition yet? :confused:
I sure will start doing them once I get some sleep. :D


I liked the river bank scene between sam and frodo very much. I remember editor John Gilbert says in the commentary that they did that scene to increase the sense of isolation of frodo from the fellowship. He's in a conflict about having to set off on his own with the ring, so he's trying to shut sam out which Sam doesn't take too easily, and it's difficult for Frodo too. But Frodo thinks he's doing what's best for them. I'm basically quoting what John Gilbert said there since I just finished watching that commentary. :p

Narya- I'm being brief to the point of rudeness here, keep losing the site, but thanks for saying coherently re agape what I was hissing and fizzing about.

Azalea- I see you!!! :D Welcome to the Faculty Insane Asylum

Louise- yup, read some feminist analysis on Freud that casts serious doubts about his own relationships with- wait for it- among other things his NURSE!!!! :p

Luthiea - thanks so much for those quotes from the Sunday Express - I wish I'd known there was going to be LOTR stuff in there, I would have run out and bought it. Too late now.

Oooh! That quote of Elijah's about The Return of the King - 'Frodo is stripped of all his innocence and purity' - it's almost too much for us Frodo lovers to contemplate, though we will enjoy it in our own sick, angsty way - and the thought of him being horrible to Sam in TTT is a bit worrying. Hope PJ & co don't mess their relationship up too much.

I think in that quote about Frodo and Sam's friendship possibly having a sexual element, Elijah WAS just stating his own opinion, that from HIS viewpoint there was no question of that, but he could understand why others might think it, and yes, he may have been being diplomatic in that sense. I honestly believe that Frodo and Sam's feelings for each other transcend any sexual interpretation, and it does bug me that there are people who insist on bringing this very pure love of theirs down to a base level. Just because you care deeply for someone of the same sex does not make you gay. Now there's nothing wrong with being gay, but in this instance I just don't think it applies.
Surely some things should be accepted for what they are, without any unnecessary innuendos being applied. In my view Frodo and Sam's friendship IS based on love, but it's an innocent, beautiful love, as simple as that.

Louise - regarding that new riverbank scene - I agree with you that Frodo is trying to distance himself from Sam there. He IS screwing himself up, resigning himself to the fact that he must somehow continue the journey alone. He is frightened and unsure of himself, and I think EW's performance reflects this. I think he knows Sam is only trying to help him, but it's help he can no longer accept, and he's trying to 'push Sam away', if you like, in the kindest way, without hurting his feelings, and without actually telling Sam he intends to leave alone. There's a lot of weight on Frodo's shoulders at this point; the sense of isolation and personal responsibility are quite new to him here, and for me the scene worked well.

A couple of points on the extra material on the SE DVD.
Have you all noticed Elijah's little 'trumpet call' as the cast commentary resumes on disc 2 of the film?

Also from the cast commentary - Sean Astin on Elijah:
'You got to play individual scenes with various characters, and it was amazing - all the different emotional levels you strike with each different person.'

John Rhys Davies on Elijah:
'I loved working with him. He's such a natural talent, such a wonderful energy, and his instincts are excellent. And all that wonderful self-belief and assurance that a young actor must have if they're going to be good.'

And finally, from the post-production team commentary, a quote from Rick Porras, co-producer, on Frodo alone on the riverbank scene at the end of the film:
'Elijah really just nails this performance. I mean, it's just so fantastic. It's amazing, the camera's so close to him - it's just inches away, yet he's just giving this fantastic performance, really getting you into the moment, and you're just so much there with him.'

Needless to say, I agree with every word there.

Must go now. RL calls. Bye.

Edit. Just popped back in to say welcome back, deluby. So sorry to hear about all your technical problems. Hope you sort it all out soon. We've missed you.
KD seems to be playing up today so I hope this edit posts OK.
Bye.

Deluby, I feel your pain. I had exactly the same problem with my computer DVD drive. Luckily I was able to watch (over and over again!) the SE on my regular DVD player, but I spent more hours than you can imagine trying to 'fix' the problem with the computer DVD drive (particularly as the drive manufacturer originally got back to my computer support people with the message that the drive was fine.) When you are used to being able to do screen captures, it's very frustrating to lose the ability. I did do a lot of useful computer maintenance this past week, though!!

A couple of the manufacturer's having this problem have already issued firmware updates, and the others 'should' have them out in the next couple of days. I have many of the sites bookmarked for the drive updates, so if you PM me your drive make and model #, I can send you a note when the update appears.

We certainly must get you operational again, so you can do those marvelous gifs!! (And my vote definitely goes to the wood elves scene as one of the first ones... :) :) )

I have to agree with Louise and Narya on the "You can't help me," scene. I don't think it's an issue of becoming malnourished or anything, but just of the stress of knowing what he has to do-- which he didn't face until his talk with Galadriel. IMHO, the character arc for movie-Frodo has his act of leaving on his own as the culmination of the character's growth in the first movie, so it's not a minor thing (the movie emphasizes it a great deal more than the book). Sam, as an observant friend, knows that something's wrong because Frodo's not eating or sleeping and, as Louise said, thinks he can help "fix" it (Have something to eat and you'll feel better)--which could be a foreshadowing for the end of the story if PJ plays it that way.

Several things I like about having the scene in there:

It gives kind of an "in process" glimpse of Frodo getting ready to leave. Maybe it was just because I was so used to his quick decision in the book, but the first few times I saw the movie I missed the importance of what's happening when they get out of the boats--that Frodo's already decided to leave.

It lets us know that Gandalf gave a few more instructions to Sam besides just telling him not to leave Frodo. For me, it raised that to the level of, "I wonder how much Gandalf really told him."

It did what I was hoping it would do when I heard it would be included--it gave some context to Sam's panic when Merry asks, "Where's Frodo?" Otherwise, IMHO, that can come across as an overreaction. But with the added scene, we know Sam's aware that something's wrong. An added benefit that I wasn't expecting was that, for me, it gave more context to Sam's determination to go with Frodo at the end.

Edit: For those losing posts, if you're getting the "cannot find server" page, and if the "Back" button then gets you to a page with an empty posting window, try using the "Back" button one more time and see if it gets you back to your post so you can try "Submit" again. It doesn't always work, but...

Oh, man… I have had NO time to keep up to date with all you fine ladies! I knew I would have a PILE of things to read once I did get a breather, and what a wonderful treat I get when I finally do!

Originally posted by Maeglian
I can't believe he says he cut the little scene between Gandalf and Frodo once they get down from Caradhras "for pace", yet he tells how he fought the studio to keep the watcher in the water scenes in.

Well, really, I would have been really upset if they HADN’T had the watcher! It serves its purpose and since it was in the book, I would have howled had it been left out. The little scene between Gandalf and Frodo was WONDERFUL, but I didn’t miss it because I had no idea it was there to be missed! Now, of course, I see how pivotal it is, and how well it explains why all those critters were chasing him. Tolks does this wonderfully by putting in a little comment from (I think) Gandalf’s POV saying that he notices that everything is seeming to target Frodo, but PJ hadn’t to this point explained that. It works and well.

Originally posted by Maeglian
And there's that lovely human touch of Gandalf asking about how Frodo's shoulder is, which receives a rather cryptic non-commital answer:"Better than it has been". I am so happy they did at least put this scene back in this DVD version!

OME! Am must be the most predictable person on the planet… I LOVE this scene for this exact reason!!!! PJ, give me angst! And YES, Frodo looks better in this scene than almost any other in the the TE (or maybe I am just enamored because it is angsty and new… I am so easy to please!)

Originally posted by Maeglian
And did anyone notice how he *looks* in the very beginning of that scene?

Who do you think you are addressing here, my dear? What a question! :p

Originally posted by Maeglian
...remember us wondering whether "EJW can cry buckets when prompted"? The answer is no, at least not always. EJW himself mentions in relation to the mirror of Galadriel scene, that he felt it was embarrassing that he was required to shed a tear there, and he just couldn't manage that one tear.

Oh, did anyone else think this was the most endearing little snippet?!? I just LOVED it! Yes, I expected he was talented enough to be able to cry on cue… good actors can (heck many people can, in truth!) but the fact that he was so flustered by Cate’s presence that he couldn’t is just too cute for words! It makes him so adorably human!

Oh, and Sheryl – I agree with you when you say that Boz is probably one who blames himself for things – and that was the reason he assumed Frodo was blaming himself for Gandalf’s fall. If you look at the scene with Boz and Aragorn in Lothlorien you can SEE how much Boz blames himself! He seems to be desperate to try and do SOMETHING for Denethor! He acts as if he blames himself for his father’s insanity and thinks if he can bring him the ring, it will save him. Of course, this could also be just Boz’s mental rationalization for the desire he feels for the ring itself.

Originally posted by Vita S-B
I refer to that segment as "potty-mouth Frodo."

Oh, that was the funniest thing I have ever seen! I was in hysterics! To me it is just one more reminder of just how YOUNG this boy is! He’s so professional and so talented and dedicated, I sometimes forget that. Just chalk that up to one more thing I find disarmingly endearing about him!

SQUEAL!!!!! Ainon!!!! Those pictures are AMAZING! OME… how am I going to POSSIBLY wait for a month?!?!?! What is with that picture of the rock? Is that supposed to be Frodo under his cloak? Is that supposed to be the scene where he has dropped down into the crevasse before they meet Gollum and the rainstorm hits? Oh, my Eru…. I am going to go NUTTY before this month is over!

Originally posted by Viola Took
I adored the comment that sean astin made about his daughter falling for EW -bet it had something to do with his eyes...ever notice that their size, and innocence reminds you of very young children (think PJs kids in Hobbiton) and babies??

Scientist mode again… I recall reading a study that proved that people with large eyes relative to their facial size were deemed more ‘attractive’ and ‘younger’ than people with more average sized eyes. Symmetry of face was also a factor that was found to be more attractive. I believe this was presented in one of “The Human Animal” series by Desmond Morris – I don’t have the actual study but I am pretty sure that was where it was expressed. EW has exceptionally large eyes in relation to the size of his face... so obviously, we are all responding to him in a perfectly natural and normal way! :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Maeglian
- the only chance they had to explaining why Sam defers to Frodo, serves him food and calls him "mister": - That he actually works for Frodo: Instead that mystery just deepens, since Frodo gets beer and jokes happily with Sam and the gaffer and others.
Oh, I KNOW! That scene drove me nuts! But I knew it would ahead of time and got my fuming out of the way a couple of months ago. Again, I think it is as my friend Elenya explained – non readers would have a harder time understanding the master/servant relationship, and readers already know about it. Though I would have preferred having Sam at LEAST giving Frodo a deferential nod when his MASTER got him a drink! Not sit there calmly puffing on his pipe acting like it was completely normal and expected

OK, Maeglian – I’ll just respond to you this whole post…LOL! I LOVED that “Here comes the money shot” comment… I was just ROLLING!

Originally posted by Shilohm
I liked the way the cast appreciated each other's acting - and I was peeved that PJ didn't say more about EW's brilliance.

OME, YES! That was so bizarre! If my success had relied so heavily on one person’s phenomenal performance, I would have been falling all over myself to compliment him… but then, perhaps EW would have been embarrassed by such praise. I noticed that the hobbit boys together didn’t make many comments on how wonderful EW’s performance was… but Orlando, recorded apart from the others was full of praise. Maybe dear little lij is embarrassed by the praise? (another endearing feature!)

Originally posted by eldalieva
I also wonder if maybe he doesn't see himself as stunning at all.

Bingo, Elda – From what I have seen, Elijah seems to focus on his faults far more than his strengths. He has to know he is attractive, but I have heard him bemoaning his nailbiting and his short stature much more than anything else – and the way he reacted to the comment about his eyes! :eek: Well, I can kind of see what he means. He was born with those eyes SWOON and there wasn’t anything he could do about them. He probably much prefers compliments on his acting, something he is directly responsible for.

Originally posted by shilohmm
While we all love and respect EW here, I'd say, the love we have for Frodo is something quite beyond that - a much more intimate type of love. And we do see those we love as more beautiful than we would otherwise. Which I think is why EW as Frodo is generally more beautiful than EW as himself. Our love for Frodo infuses him with extra beauty.

By george, I think you’ve got it! I like and admire EW, but I get much more of an “Awwww…” feeling looking at shots of him. When I see him as Frodo the reaction is FAR more visceral, primal and mature. It IS affected by how much I love the character. You are absolutely right.

Tg – “Virgin in the potato chip”!!! :eek: ROTFLMAO!!!!

Originally posted by Luthiea
That's what I love about him, he's so real.

YES!!!! YES, YES, and YES! That is exactly it! I may adore Frodo and want to do all kinds of inappropriate things to him, but EW is so charmingly, engagingly REAL that you just have to respect him! And respect is just too moderate a word – I am in AWE that this completely normal boy can become such an otherworldly ANGEL just by assuming a role!

Originally posted by Cadmo
But I hate hate hate the sexualising of this relationship. Even if Frodo or Sam (one or the other) was a woman I would hate it. It seems to me that part of the import of the story is their agape love for each other.

Oh, Cadmo! YES! I should just quote your entire post because I SOOOO agree with you! I do believe we did discuss this issue long ago but I had to come and say I couldn’t possibly agree with you more! It so TRIVIALIZES Frodo and Sam’s relationship to express it in sexual terms! I am not in the slightest bit homophobic at all, but I just feel that when people write that stuff they just aren’t ‘getting’ the true nature and beauty of the relationship!


Editing and adding as I go….

Ariel

Originally posted by Ariel
...the fact that he was so flustered by Cate’s presence that he couldn’t is just too cute for words! It makes him so adorably human!

What I loved was when he gave credit to Cate for standing there "waiting patiently" for him to cry. I thought, "Don't worry, Elijah. I'm sure she was enjoying the view!"

And I also have to give kudos to him...and the other hobbits...for being obviously more enamored of 30-something, striking Cate than of fashion-model-pretty Liv. Hmph!

Just to flog a dead horse here... I don't think being gay precludes the existence of an Agape-type love. I don't think heterosexual relationships preclude selfless love either. Selfless love is rare and wonderful, but I don't think it requires utterly virginal relationships in order to exist.

I think the question of Frodo and Sam's sexuality is irrelevant to understanding the relationship. It doesn't matter whether they are or whether they aren't. Which seems to be what Elijah said. I respect that.

On a more geeky note: ok, how does somebody who wears contacts go without blinking for long periods of time without getting tired, bloodshot eyes? Does Elijah just have really active tear ducts (except in the presence of Cate Blanchett), or what?

I felt sorry for all the actors when I realized how nasty the fake snow stuff was, but the "Cameras... " segment had one shot of Elijah rubbing his eyes that reminded me that he wears contacts. As a fellow contact-wearer (who wears glasses more often because her eyes dry out too much), I sympathize.

Mel

Originally posted by mel headstrong
Just to flog a dead horse here... I don't think being gay precludes the existence of an Agape-type love. I don't think heterosexual relationships preclude selfless love either. Selfless love is rare and wonderful, but I don't think it requires utterly virginal relationships in order to exist.



Oh, agreed. I think agape can co-exist with any other type of love - but at the same time, in our culture at least, eros tends to be a very temporary thing. Whether heterosexual or homsexual, eros tends to be a "what's in it for me?" kind of thing. There's a lot of "I fell out of love" and "spouse doesn't excite me any more" and "so-and-so can give me more" kind of assumptions when it comes to eros. Since eros is viewed as emotion, and out of a person's control, love itself comes to be seen that way. Magical, usually temporary, something that just happens. And that's *not* agape love.

You guys have given me a lot to think about with the riverbank scene. I wonder if it's that it doesn't fit into the "character arc" I had worked out for movie Frodo - I see him as deciding to leave during the confrontation with Boromir at Amon Hen, so didn't see the riverbank scene as a "goodbye" to Sam. I like that idea. :)

But of course I always deal badly with change, and that idea didn't fit my assumptions. :p Have to see if it works better for me the next time I watch it. I still don't like the idea that Sam's saying, "I promised Gandalf" as his motivation for working with Frodo - I didn't mind the two mentions in the theatre version, but a third statement on that pushes it a bit too hard. I think I'd read it as kind of his verbalized excuse rather than really as his primary motivation. I think he stays with Frodo because he cares about Frodo; repeating the promise a third time seems to push it to primary motive. I don't like the element of obligation that seems to imply - as if Sam's just "doing his job" rather than caring for Frodo because he loves him.

I'm obsessing a bit...

Ariel,
I thought I had all manner of wonderful things to say to your post, but they all turned out to be, "Me, too." ;)

deluby,
Glad to see you back! Hope things work out with your computer somehow.

Blossom,
Thanks for the quotes from the commentaries. I'm not an audial learner; I have a hard time keeping hold of something spoken like that, so I really appreciate seeing bits in print. :)

elda,
Good point about the hobbit boys appreciating Cate over Liv.

Sheryl

Regarding the swearing - I remember reading somewhere that they cut the bad language from the UK version to allow them to retain the PG rating here

Oh, thank God for that. I was beginning to think I was going mad. I watched the Day In The Life section again and still didn't hear any swearing or beeping out of swearing. Good to know that it was just cut out of my version and that I'm not as mad as I thought.

I'm reminded of Ian McKellan's comment during the scene where Frodo wakes up in Rivendell - McKellan initially says he told Sean Astin to grab EW's hand because that's how it is in the book, but then he drifts off to how it would mean so much to gay people if that's what SA did, so I expect EW was intuitive enough to pick up that there are gay people who want to see Sam and Frodo's relationship on that level, and he probably would feel funny condemning that perspective.

So do you think Ian McKellen sees their relationship as a homosexual one?

I'm almost up-to-date on the DVD watching. I've seen all the appendices and now just have to watch the producers commentary and the special FX people's commentary and then I'll be done. I had to LOL at seeing Peter Jackson and his cronies acting out the Bag End scene between Bilbo and Gandalf in a half completed Bag End with Gandalf on a stick. I've come to really like Rick Porras as well. Just from what I've seen so far he seems like a really cool guy. Sometimes he sounded a lot like Elwood actually - don't know if that's why I liked him so much. I was amazed and just what went into the film. Never could have guessed it all really.


Probably not the right thread to ask, but can somebody advise me again on finding the Easter Eggs? I thought I knew where to look for them, but couldn't find them after all. But then again, I'm only just getting to grips with my new DVD Player, so it doesn't surprise me that I'm a bit clueless still. Thanks.

Oh, and grossly off topic here, but TGShaw - the film Charly happened to be on the tv over the weekend and remembering what you had said about it, I sat down and watched it. I liked the first half, but the second half with Cliff Robertson learning what was going to happen to him, wasn't so believable. I bet EJW could portray that a whole lot better! Still, overall it was enjoyable. Thanks for the recomendations.


Hi to Azalea. Please come delurk :)

Originally posted by shilohmm
You guys have given me a lot to think about with the riverbank scene. I wonder if it's that it doesn't fit into the "character arc" I had worked out for movie Frodo - I see him as deciding to leave during the confrontation with Boromir at Amon Hen, so didn't see the riverbank scene as a "goodbye" to Sam. I like that idea. :) I think it doesn't bother me as part of his "character arc," because I've always viewed that small bit upon leaving Moria, where Frodo is walking away from the group in his grief, as sort of a froshadowing of his decision to strike out on his own later. Although perhaps subconscious on his part at that point, I think it's the first move in the direction of making that decision, the first inkling that he -- and, especially, everyone else -- would be better off if he made the journey alone. So, I think he's gradually been deciding to do it long before the riverbank scene. I believe his exchange with Galadriel simply finalizes the decision that he has been struggling with for awhile.

Back to the "dead horse" for a moment: I approve of the way EW handled that issue. Some people would simply have avoided it altogether, and I applaud his diplomacy. :cool: Personally, I never read it with a sexual content at all, and was stunned the first time that someone suggested it to me. Not because of the homosexuality aspect, because I have no problem with that, but simply because it had never occurred to me. I guess I always saw it as what you've described as "Agape" love, and was surprised that anyone saw it any other way. Of course, they're entitled to their interpretation, but nothing can convince me that I'm wrong, I'm afraid. There is something about their relationship that simply transcends... well... everything!

Yeah, now that I have gotten caught up, you won't be able to shut me up. Ok. <blush> let’s just say I will find myself mostly repeating Maeglian AND Sheryl in my posts! Thanks, Sheryl, for those kind words! I haven't been feeling very comfortable in the harem lately, (fault of my own big mouth) and the kind welcome here has certainly made me feel 100% better.

Originally posted by shilohmm
I'm reminded of Ian McKellan's comment during the scene where Frodo wakes up in Rivendell …<snip> I expect EW was intuitive enough to pick up that there are gay people who want to see Sam and Frodo's relationship on that level, and he probably would feel funny condemning that perspective.

As well he should feel funny about it. I think he handled that comment in a very mature and politically correct way. A gay person has as much right to interpret this story the way they want as I do, and if the view of Frodo and Sam being gay were only a sometimes presented alternative viewpoint, it would never bother me. What DOES irritate me is the overwhelming preponderance of this view – that so many people miss the point of their relationship. I agree with Mel that it doesn’t really matter, but when it is presented SO often this way, I think people lose the true point Tolks was trying to make.

And yes, Blossom… I should have read your post because I also agree with you! I should just say ‘ditto’ from now on!

Originally posted by shilohmm
I still don't like the idea that Sam's saying, "I promised Gandalf" as his motivation for working with Frodo

I also agree about the ‘saying goodbye’ thing. I didn’t like the scene myself as much when I first saw it, but when someone (can’t remember where I read it) mentioned that that was what the scene was, it all sort of fell into place. Sort of an ‘of course!’ moment – and I liked the scene a whole lot better.

As for Sam saying that Gandalf told him to look out for Frodo, I see that comment in the riverbank scene as a dodge. Sam is no longer caring for Frodo out of fear or respect or a promise to Gandalf – but because he cares for Frodo and is worried. The Gandalf line is Sam’s excuse to hide his own strong feelings. You know these stiff upper lip British types; embarrassed of strong emotion – hiding it, sometimes poorly, behind duty and proper behavior. Gandalf’s words give Sam a shield behind which he is able to express his feelings of worry and love without embarrassing either of them.

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
So do you think Ian McKellen sees their relationship as a homosexual one?

As a matter of fact, yes, I do. And considering he is homosexual, it is entirely appropriate for him to feel that way. If it makes the story more meaningful and enjoyable for him to think so, then by all means, let him. HOWEVER – I am very glad this view was NOT presented in the movie. Because of my own personal irritation at this interpretation being over stressed and sensationalized, I would NOT have been able to enjoy the film if it were. I think PJ and EW both played this aspect very wisely just as JRRT did – able to be interpreted however the interpreter wants – and in which ever way the interpreter feels most comfortable.

Ariel

Originally posted by Ariel
Gandalf’s words give Sam a shield behind which he is able to express his feelings of worry and love without embarrassing either of them. Oh, nicely said! *applauds*

I also read Sam's line (and especially the delivery thereof) in the boat at the end "And I don't mean to. I don't mean to!" as sort of finally taking responsibility for the feelings he has for Frodo, and making the promise, that was originally to Gandalf, a promise to himself, as well as to Frodo. I just like to look at it that way. :) Does it make sense to anyone else, or am I off in the ozone, somewhere? :p Of course, that would be nothing new.

Originally posted by Eagles Eyrie
Probably not the right thread to ask, but can somebody advise me again on finding the Easter Eggs? I thought I knew where to look for them, but couldn't find them after all. But then again, I'm only just getting to grips with my new DVD Player, so it doesn't surprise me that I'm a bit clueless still. Thanks.Don't bother looking for the MTV spoof - it's not there. It was omitted from R2 DVD's in the UK and Ireland because including it would have meant a 12 certificate for the entire box set.

Mind you - I can't find the trailer either even though I know where it's supposed to be, plus my computer's DVD (the same one that wouldn't allow me to access the online extras on the TE) is one of the ones that won't let the SE play at all :(

While I'm here...

Re the Sam and Frodo scene on the riverbank: Rather than seeing it as a goodbye I tend to look on it as a companion piece to the little section just after the "wood elves".

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
I also read Sam's line (and especially the delivery thereof) in the boat at the end "And I don't mean to. I don't mean to!" as sort of finally taking responsibility for the feelings he has for Frodo, and making the promise, that was originally to Gandalf, a promise to himself, as well as to Frodo. I just like to look at it that way. :) Does it make sense to anyone else, or am I off in the ozone, somewhere? :p Of course, that would be nothing new.
That's a good way of looking at it.

I also think that the promise to Gandalf simply replaces the duty that book Sam feels as Frodo's servant. I'm not expressing this well, but I think book Sam hides how much he cares about Frodo personally behind the idea of duty to his master. Even in The Choices of Master Samwise, he still talks to himself about "never leave your master", though it's clear that his (agape :D ) love for Frodo has completely transcended the master-servant relationship.

In the movie, the whole master-servant relationship has nearly disappeared, but Gandalf's instructions give Sam as much of an exuse for caring so much as social obligations gave book Sam.

From Eagles Eyrie:So do you think Ian McKellen sees their relationship as a homosexual one?
There's at least one interview with McKellen (in a gay newspaper or magazine, don't remember which one) in which he says directly that he doesn't believe Tolkien meant it that way. And I think he also emphasized the agape nature of the relationship... not in so many words, but I got that impression.

Mel

I had a heckuva time finding the trailer, but I finally did it. Let's see if I can describe it adequately...

On disk 2, choose "select a scene." Move the cursor to scene 48 and hit "enter." When you're on the Scene 48 page (which is the fanclub credits, I believe) move your cursor to the right and down to the "48" and then push "down" once more. A small picture of the Two Towers should appear. When you see it, simply push "enter."

Let me know if that works for you! :)

Originally posted by Ariel
HOWEVER – I am very glad this view was NOT presented in the movie. Because of my own personal irritation at this interpretation being over stressed and sensationalized, I would NOT have been able to enjoy the film if it were. I think PJ and EW both played this aspect very wisely just as JRRT did – able to be interpreted however the interpreter wants – and in which ever way the interpreter feels most comfortable.

I agree. :)

The number one reason for not presenting F and S's relationship as an implicitly sexual one is because that's not what Tolkien intended. :)

Bless his heart, it would never have entered his head. :D Plus, he portrays Frodo as resolutely asexual. (So, as a fanfic writer I like very much said to me very recently, when you do introduce sexuality into Frodo's character, the results are rather ... er ... volatile. :D )

The most important thing about Fro and Sam, even for the reader who is not averse to subtext, is the spiritual aspect of their love.
:)

The SE certainly added elements to Film Fro, just as it added elements to practically everyone else, but I do still miss aspects of Book Fro ... :o

Originally posted by Bunniebugs
Let me know if that works for you!Yes - it did, thank you! I'd been looking for it from the "Select a Scene" menu. No wonder I couldn't find it :)
Originally posted by Pearl
The most important thing about Fro and Sam, even for the reader who is not averse to subtext, is the spiritual aspect of their love. What she said.

BunnieBugs: thanks for the instructions! As soon as I get home I'm going to try them out. :D Does anyone know if the MTV thing is on U.S. discs??

Luthiea: Thanks for the quotes from the Express!! Those are awesome!
um....someone tell me...should I start to worry about myself when I find myself wanting to read not only U.S magazine articles about Elijah, but also English, French, German, Spanish, Russian...... :rolleyes: :p

I thought Elijah's comments on Frodo and Sam's relationship were very diplomatic. I want to second Mel's comments on agape love potentially co-existing with other types of love. I say this because...(Ariel, stop reading, 'kay? ;) ) I have read a couple of slash fan-fics that seemed to do a good job of 'showing' their relationship. I could buy it. The vast majority, however, are not so good. :eek:

Yes, Pearl!
As I progress into my fandom, I find that Frodo's sexuality (or lack of) does not concern me as much as it once did. If he and Sam had a few rolls in the hay, that does not necessarily overshadow the more important aspects of their relationship.

If he and Sam NEVER had any rolls in the hay, or if Frodo even died a virgin, that still is not the most important part of his character and personality or relationship with Sam. :D Just my PERSONAL and very humble opinion. Everyone is free to disagree, just don't throw anything except trout. :D

Okay, now for the IMPORTANT business!! We have ALL lamented our lack of information about Elijah's acting, techniques and so on. I know a couple of us have wished Elijah would be on a program like 'Inside the Actor's Studio' on BravoTV---it's an hourlong show where the host goes quite extensively into the art and method of acting.

Well, you can email BravoTV and ask them to put Elijah on! I did, and got a nice email back with the upcoming schedule and saying that my suggestion would be forwarded to the show's producers. You see where I'm going with this? :)

Maybe if we all email, they WILL put him on and we'll get a whole hour of Elijah talking about himself and his acting. :) :)

This is the link: BravoTV (http://www.bravotv.com/information/contact_us.php)

Originally posted by stormyday
BunnieBugs: thanks for the instructions! As soon as I get home I'm going to try them out. :D Does anyone know if the MTV thing is on U.S. discs?? Yes, it's there, on disc one. I don't remember how to find it, but I know they have instructions on theonering.net. If you haven't seen it, be prepared for complete irreverence! :eek: But I have to admit, when I saw it the first time, it had me laughing until I cried...

Maybe if we all email, they WILL put him on and we'll get a whole hour of Elijah talking about himself and his acting. :) :)

This is the link: BravoTV (http://www.bravotv.com/information/contact_us.php)

Oh, I would die. I would simply die! And if they do it, I will literally die, because I don't get Bravo! Some kind soul would have to lend me a taped copy of it, because I would have to see it. Or I would just die. :D

Ariel, stop reading, 'kay?

Oh, don't worry, Stormy. I have already resigned myself to the fact that people I like and care about disagree with me on this issue. It's cool... but I just hope they don't dislike me for it. I write racy stuff too, and enjoy reading it (but not slash) but would never force, by insistance or censure, someone else to read it.

Ariel

Originally posted by Ariel
Oh, don't worry, Stormy. I have already resigned myself to the fact that people I like and care about disagree with me on this issue. It's cool... but I just hope they don't dislike me for it.

Well, good heavens, I certainly don't dislike you for it. :p And I just luuuuuuurve your racy stuff! :D

((((Ariel))))

BunnieBugs, there are lots of kind souls around here. ;)

Ariel, I don't dislike you for your opinions, hon. And I like your fics! I think everyone thinks that, but you know I missed last month's Secret Conspiracy meeting....*shrugs*

:p ;) :cool: :D

that is a joke!

Hammer and tongs! I am so torn between rage and joy, that if I do not burst, it will be a marvel!

The joy: Coming home late from a killer day at work to find heaps of insightful, wonderful posts to read and ponder! :)

The rage: Having so little time to comment, consider, reply and thank everybody! :(

I'll just make a few comments to what has been posted above before stumbling off to bed. Please forgive me if I don't quote anyone directly, and just refer to previous posts in a general manner.


About the riverbank-at-night scene: Thank you to all to commented on this. That Frodo is distancing himself, disengaging himself, mentally saying goodbye, makes a lot of sense. I think the scene works better for me now. I never had a problem with the scene's placement in the character arch, nor with his inability to eat..... I can't eat either when I'm really torn and upset by something. :rolleyes: Still, I do think EJW's acting works better for me in other of the added scenes than in that particular one.


About the "Frodo and Sam are gay... or not" issue:
Again, thank you all for various wonderful posts concerning agape, spiritual love and the nature of Frodo and Sam's relationship. I *have* to go back re-read all of them!

Just a few comments: This issue really brings home how much it's a requirement that an actor be able to handle issues and questions in relation to their films in a diplomatic, kind and carefully considerate manner. I think EJW handled the question admirably. :) He stated his view politely, but also conceded that other interpretations are valid. I am impressed with his ability to find the right words.

Imagine if one of the major character actors in LotR was to voice something less than diplomatical on this question, or on the equally sensitive question of why black or native NZ actors were only cast as orcs and villains; - the hue and cry that might follow could ruin the film's reputation.......

That said, I was really surprised at Ian McKellen's statement about the hand-holding in Rivendell being his suggestion. It is in the book (like he says), and it shows Sam's devotion so clearly and beautifully. Therefore I took it for granted and was happy when it occured in the film, without bothering about reading any subtext whatsoever into it, like I don't read any subtext into their relationship in the book. :confused:

Actually Sir Ian's statements worried me some. I would have thought showing the various physical signs of affection between Frodo and Sam was the scriptwriters' and PJ's clear decision from the start? I really hope they didn't need anybody suggesting it to them in the course of filming to show this....... Though come to think of it, it was Fran Walsh, not PJ, who directed the hug in the boat when they're leaving the fellowship. Oh well, as long as they've kept enough of that affection and closeness in, I don't care *how* it got to be included. But it's so *important* in the portrayal of Frodo's and Sam's relationship, I hope and trust it will be there in the next two films too.


About the actors not praising each other overmuch in the commentary; it's true that there is *a lot* of praise for Cate Blanchett. EJW goes on about how nervous he was.... Orlando Bloom admires her ability to adopt the graceful poise of the elves so effortlessly, and John Rhys-Davies is extremely vocal about her beauty and her ability to find the right balance in the role. It's well deserved, too! Cate is such a wonderful actress and apart from the nuclear stint I love her Galadriel.


Luthiea, thank you so much for those quotes from the Sunday Express interview. I think that's the most I've ever seen EJW comment on what will happen in the next two films, and just reading that sends my angst-o-meter into complete overload. "Sam picks up Frodo and Frodo is essentially dying and he says to Frodo, 'I can't carry the Ring but I can carry you." and "I'd say film three, The Return of the King, is where Frodo is stripped of all his innocence and purity."

I wonder how many of us will be able to calmly walk out of the cinema after seeing that film?


It's late, I'll have to stop writing although I'd like to comment on much more. I do have to say this though: Ariel, I love your current avatar! Finally an angsty, bedraggled and muddy Frodo worthy of rivalling your previous EJW one. :)

Good night, everyone!

Originally posted by Maeglian
I wonder how many of us will be able to calmly walk out of the cinema after seeing that film?
They are going to have to mop me up, because I'm going to be a mere puddle on the floor. Those quotes from EW alone choked me up.

I'm an incurable sap.

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
I also read Sam's line (and especially the delivery thereof) in the boat at the end "And I don't mean to. I don't mean to!" as sort of finally taking responsibility for the feelings he has for Frodo, and making the promise, that was originally to Gandalf, a promise to himself, as well as to Frodo.

I like that interpretation. :)

Originally posted by Ghyste

Re the Sam and Frodo scene on the riverbank: Rather than seeing it as a goodbye I tend to look on it as a companion piece to the little section just after the "wood elves".

Could you elaborate on that? Sounds interesting, but I'm not following you. :p

Originally posted by Mel Headstrong

There's at least one interview with McKellen (in a gay newspaper or magazine, don't remember which one) in which he says directly that he doesn't believe Tolkien meant it that way. And I think he also emphasized the agape nature of the relationship... not in so many words, but I got that impression.

Good for McKellan. I thought it interesting, some time back, that a lot of the slash fan posters to the Godawful Fanfic board very firmly declared that you should not slash LOTR. They felt that it warped the characters too much, and violated Tolkien's vision beyond toleration (actually, most of them argue against most LOTR fanfic, and claim Tolkien fans should write stories from the Sil instead - they like the movie, but at heart they're a bunch of Tolkien purists, I fear :D ).

Originally posted by strormyday

If he and Sam NEVER had any rolls in the hay, or if Frodo even died a virgin, that still is not the most important part of his character and personality or relationship with Sam. Just my PERSONAL and very humble opinion. Everyone is free to disagree, just don't throw anything except trout.

Only time I want to fling trout on this topic is when people don't just argue for Frodo and Sam being gay - but go off on tirades about how Tolkien was too "repressed" to be "honest" about what he was writing. :rolleyes: That gets me a mite riled. It's one thing to say the text allows an interpretation - but to say that the author meant that interpretation but wasn't honest enough to admit it is something else entirely. :mad:

I'll e-mail Bravo, but I'm in Bunnie's position - I'll have to mooch a tape if it ever happens. But it sure sounds like it'd be great!

Originally posted by Maeglian

Oh well, as long as they've kept enough of that affection and closeness in, I don't care *how* it got to be included. But it's so *important* in the portrayal of Frodo's and Sam's relationship, I hope and trust it will be there in the next two films too.

Oh, fine, now you've made me nervous, since McKellan was definitely one who argued for Tolkien's vision on many an occasion, and of course he presumably wasn't there for most of the rest of the Sam and Frodo scenes. Thanks a lot! :p I expect, though, from Sean Astin's comments on the same scene, that he took McKellan's comments to heart and would try to keep an eye out for details like that. :) And heaven knows the hobbit boys, heterosexual though they may be, had no problem with touching and hugging each other, on camera or off. I'm officially going to refuse to worry about that aspect. ;)

I have great hopes of getting to go to TTT before we hit the road - if there's a midnight showing, at least, assuming we manage to get tickets, which we won't know for sure until a bit over a week beforehand. Not so sure we'll make it if there isn't one, though, since Pat's not available that Thursday. And Friday we'll be on the road. :eek:

Sheryl

There's at least one interview with McKellen (in a gay newspaper or magazine, don't remember which one) in which he says directly that he doesn't believe Tolkien meant it that way. And I think he also emphasized the agape nature of the relationship... not in so many words, but I got that impression.
McKellan pretty much said the same thing to a gay person who wrote in to his web site and asked if he thought the "Don't turn me into anything unnatural" scene was the scriptwriters' nod to Frodo and Sam being gay. He said that he didn't think that Tolkien intended their relationship to be seen that way, and neither did the filmmakers. But that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, or words to that effect. I'm sure that McKellan is well aware that a lot of gay people see Frodo and Sam as a "couple", but at least he downplays it when asked about it in interviews, because he thinks that it goes against Tolkien's intentions.

First I'd like to say that it has taken a VERY long time for me to warm up to EW's Frodo . . . almost a year as a matter of fact. I just thought he was so wrong - and his voice grated on my nerves to no end. In fact, my brother and I had quite a lot of fun goofing on EW's Frodo voice by reciting his lines in a manner reminicent of the screeching female characters Terry Jones used to play in old Monty Python skits. :eek: :D

But something happened when I got the SE and started watching it. I noticed that there were scenes where I was no longer gritting my teeth over EW and was actually seeing him as Frodo. It was a most welcome experience . . . now if I can only convince myself that Liv Tyler IS Arwen :rolleyes:.

Though I still think he goes a bit heavy with the pitiful looks, the shots toward the end of the movie where we see him feeling the burden of the ring and his responsibility in the quest, come across wonderfully. Those are true Frodo moments for me, and I am convinced that it is only going to get better in TTT and later in RotK.

Secondly - on the subject of the Frodo/Sam relationship . . .
I really wish I could get my brother in here to talk about it (because I share his same POV on the matter) - he would be so much more eloquent than I. Unfortunately, I don't think he'll come within 10km of anything even remotely resembling a swoon thread. ;) So, I'll have a go with trying to explain it myself.

The best way to understand the relationship between Frodo and Sam is to look back at Tolkien's own life; at the friendships he formed while at school with th young men with whom he would later go off to war, because it's there that I think the inspiration can be found. In the relationship between Sam and Frodo, there is very much a tone of the brothers in arms mentality . . . like the comraderie and bond between soldiers that arises from being responsible for each other's lives in a time of war, and from sharing such a horrible, frightening, and violent experience. It's not something that is easily understood by those that have not been through it, and something that I think is too complicated to be categorized as "love" of any sort. Such a bond isn't really grounded in emotion, but in the concepts of duty and honor and responsibility.

Now, to complicate matters even further, you have to consider Sam's role in things. He was a servant in the old school sort of way, working for Frodo at Bag End, and it was in this capacity that Sam was bound to Frodo when they left the Shire. Sam's own sense of self worth was directly tied to how well he served his master, and this made Frodo the absolute center of Sam's life. Later, this deepens. As Frodo grows weaker under the burden of the ring, Sam also takes up the responsibility of being Frodo's emotional cheerleader. He is continuously encouraging Frodo and refuses to allow him to fall into despair, and takes on a role that is almost fatherly. In turn, Frodo not only develops a dependence on Sam, but also grows to respect and admire him.

They are two little Hobbits alone in a big, very frightening and violent world. All they have is each other.

I do understand those that might want to see Frodo and Sam as gay --- just as any of us want to see some reflection of ourselves in the characters of our favorite books. But the thing to remember here is Tolkien's intent. And I just don't think the Professor ever meant to purposefully imply that there was a romantic bond between the two. Sorry to disappoint anyone, but it's just not there.

from Hallah: In the relationship between Sam and Frodo, there is very much a tone of the brothers in arms mentality . . . like the comraderie and bond between soldiers that arises from being responsible for each other's lives in a time of war, and from sharing such a horrible, frightening, and violent experience. It's not something that is easily understood by those that have not been through it...

Yes. I agree. The bond between young soldiers in world War one has been discussed and debated endlessly here in NZ especially re how there were so many verifiable instances of callow youths who were totally terrified by the unexpected horrors of war and yet they formed such powerful friendships that they risked death to help each other and suffered deep grief and depression when a "mate" (the Australian and NZ word for close friend and not at all a sexual term here:rolleyes: ) was killed.

I was actually thinking along just these lines myself Hallah, so your post gave me a deja vu feeling.

I disagree on one point though:

Such a bond isn't really grounded in emotion, but in the concepts of duty and honor and responsibility.

I think in both the boys in WW1 and Frodo and Sam there is a great deal of emotion involved. Loyalty, codes of conduct and shared tragedy etc reinforces it but the love/affection pre- exists.

Well, now that I have my copy of the EE and have watched it numerous times, it's safe for me to come back here. I really didn't want to be spoiled any more than I already was. :)

Great stuff here, as usual. It's taken me a few hours to catch up on everything posted in the last week, but it was time well spent. One thing that struck me as I was sitting at my computer today, pretending to work (who am I kidding?) was that from the moment we hear Frodo's anguished scream when Gandalf falls, to his first line in the Galandrial's Mirror scene ("What will I see?") he doesn't utter a single syllable. I timed that span in the EE and it comes to 13 minutes. Except for the scene between Aragorn and Boromir, which lasted about 2 minutes, that comes to 11 minutes during which he is virtually on screen at all times, and the focus of the camera through most of it, and we hear not a sound from him. And yet, what he is able to convey through his eyes, and his body language is incredible. Eleven minutes is a lot of time in a movie, so much so that I had to actually go back and rewatch the entire span to make sure he really says nothing through that whole part. He expressed so much in those scenes that it really is amazing that he did it all in silence. What talent that takes.

Another thing that blew me away in the added scenes was his voice, both when he and Sam are watching the departure of the wood elves, and the following scene when Sam is complaining that he can't sleep. He speaks so softly, his tone so cultured and refined, I found myself playing those scenes again and again just to hear him deliver those lines. There is a quality in his voice in those scenes that is different from any other in the rest of the movie.

I had no problem with the scene on the riverbank when Sam is trying to take care of Frodo and Frodo is gently refusing his help. I found everything about that scene to be believable. His facial expressions said it all--you could see the anguish in his face as he realized that he was truly alone in this quest now, and not even Sam can help him bear this burden. I felt this was a good follow up to the scene in Lothlorian, when (as PJ said in the commentary) he feels that the rest of the fellowship sees him as the source of their problems, and whether it's conscious or not, he feels they blame him for everything from Gandalf's death to their difficulty in receiving sanctuary. Of course, we know that isn't true, but that is his perspective at that moment, and that's when I feel he begins to pull away from them all. Sam, of all of them, would be the one he would have to directly confront and impress this upon, because he knows Sam is not going to simply allow him to disconnect without a fight. Whereas the rest of the members of the fellowship will give him space, Frodo knows he is going to have to actually say the words to Sam.

I thought this scene was very well done and really necessary to understand Frodo's frame of mind. It also sets up his attempt to slip away from Sam shortly after. Aragorn, Pippin and Merry know he's leaving, but Sam would never have allowed that, which is essentially why Frodo felt the need to at least attempt to explain it to Sam when the opportunity arose. Even so, as he tells Aragorn, he is well aware that "Sam will not understand." Actually, I think Sam understands very well, but being Frodo's equal in stubbornness, he simply refuses to accept that. For which we're all very grateful. :)

Originally posted by Cadmo

I think in both the boys in WW1 and Frodo and Sam there is a great deal of emotion involved. Loyalty, codes of conduct and shared tragedy etc reinforces it but the love/affection pre- exists.

And I would say that yes, there is emotion there - great emotion - but the love develops over time with the shared experience being a catalyst.

But feel free to ignore me, since I'm only posting as a means to ward off the boredom caused by not being able to sleep in the middle of the night. :D

And now, back to your regularly scheduled discussion . . .

;)

Originally posted by me
Re the Sam and Frodo scene on the riverbank: Rather than seeing it as a goodbye I tend to look on it as a companion piece to the little section just after the "wood elves".

Originally posted by Shilohmm
Could you elaborate on that? Sounds interesting, but I'm not following youIt was a thought that occurred to me during a discussion of why the little scene after the wood elves had been included at all - apart from giving us palpitations, of course! That scene and the one on the banks of the Anduin seem to nicely illustrate some of the changing dynamics in Frodo and Sam's relationship. In the first a sleepless Sam looks to the more worldly-wise Frodo for comfort and reassurance. In the latter the positions are reversed with Sam trying (in vain) to care for the now sleepless Frodo.

As Frodo starts to withdraw, Sam begins to assume the responsibility that (apart from in moments of physical danger) he has only spoken about. There is the sense that on the Anduin the full ramifications of Sam's mantra of "don't you leave him" suddenly become clear with the realisation that there are more ways in which he could lose Frodo than just the physical.

Hello Faculty! Okay, be warned that I have a miserable cold and have just popped a decongestant pill so if I ramble worse that usual, you can blame the medication and not me. :p

Hi Azalea! :)

{{{{Maeg}}} Hope you had a better day at work today!

I still have no DVD. :pout: I'm appreciating all the spoilers here, and thanks to that I now know precisely which scenes I'll be jumping to once I have the DVD in my grubby little hands - what, you expect me to watch the movie in its proper sequence when I know I should leap immediately to the pre-Moria Frodo & Gandalf scene where Frodo is so exceptionally beautiful (Blossom - thank you for the blessed screencaps! Especially of Frodo in his hood. :swoon:) and where someone actually asks Frodo if his shoulder pains him! (in that regard I guess Ariel and I are just sooooo predictable :D ) My respect and admiration for FW and PB increases by leaps and bounds ... and well, yeah, PJ too, but I don't know if PJ pays that much attention to little things like how to hike up the angst levels of angst-worthy characters, you know? ;)

I also think that once I'm done going through all the additional Frodo scenes, I'll watch the actual extended movie with the cast commentary turned on. One heckuva screwed-up way to experience the wonders of the 'new' movie, but I feel like I have to catch up with all the terrific things I've been reading about here first. I'm actually pondering the insanity of ordering the TTT SE DVD to be delivered by courier next year ... it'll put me in the poor house no doubt, but at least I'll have it on time!

Don't anyone so much as dare say anything here about how patience is a virtue ... :p


{{{{deluby}}}} -- man, that DVD player experience was traumatic. Glad you've kinda sorted it out.

Luthiea, thanks for those quotes. What Elijah has to say about TTT and ROTK Frodo doesn't really match with my impression of bookFrodo either, but I'm actually fine with that. We'll know for sure how it'll all go once we see TTT. I'm not worried about the Frodo-Sam friendship though; that is something that has to be strongly established so I reckon we'll see that in the first half of the movie, and then we'll probably glimpse bits of Frodo's dark side towards the end of TTT. Anyway, just looking at it from an Elijah angle ... if that's gonna be Frodo's character arc, then that's the kind of acting that Oscar folks are gonna be lapping up. The loss of innocence, the transformation into a character totally unrecognisable from the sweet, lovely character at the beginning of the story, the final breakdown ... we're talking perfect angst, and terrific Oscar clips here.

Thanks for the discussion input, Hallah. Frodo's voice bugged you? Hmm, you know Frodo's voice is lower than EW's real voice? So what does EW's do to you? :D

stormy, according to TORN, a French magazine is coming out with LOTR info in December. You can see the cover here (http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/5229). If you're translating everything for us, I think we're all gonna love you lots. :D :D


tg, I'm definitely appreciating your daily Frodo doses. I don't think you've started re-running any of them yet, have you?

Ariel - love your new avatar. Of course. ;)






TTT SPOILER IMAGES












Actually I have no idea what this pic is about:

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/lotrtwotowers-303.jpg

I'd been quietly hoping someone would enlighten me! :p Luthiea - I think you got the pic, could you please tell again what this is?!

Anyway, BagEndInn has posted several of the Decipher cards. I guess there weren't that many more Frodo cards. Here're two more that haven't been posted here yet.

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/lotrtwotowers-299.jpg http://www.bagendinn.com/images/lotrtwotowers-259.jpg









END SPOILER IMAGES




Okay, I'm shutting up now. {{{{Faculty}}}}} Thanks for the terrific discussions, and especially big THANK YOU for everyone who's been quoting from the commentaries and documentaries and such. :)

Originally posted by Hallah
And I would say that yes, there is emotion there - great emotion - but the love develops over time with the shared experience being a catalyst.
This is how I'd see it, too. After all, many of them wouldn't even have known each other prior to that.

I've only had time (barely) to keep up with what's been posted over the last day or so, and just about everything I would have said about the riverbank scene and Frodo & Sam's relationship has already been said (which saves a great deal of time :p ). I'll just throw in one practical consideration that I also mentioned back at Imladris regarding the Frodo/Sam topic: After having been through the experience myself of being romantically involved with someone who breaks off the relationship and marries someone else, the last thing I'd do is immediately invite the happy couple to move in with me :eek: ! So if Frodo has sexual feelings for Sam, he's much more able to handle them than I would be!

But feel free to ignore me, since I'm only posting as a means to ward off the boredom caused by not being able to sleep in the middle of the night. :D
Now, how could we ignore someone who's just stopped gritting her teeth at EW? :D Whatever you do, don't listen to "Tom Thumb and Thumbelina" :eek: :p :eek: !

-----------------

--Just saw ainon's post--no I haven't recycled any Frodo's yet, and now I've got whole new scenes to play with (today's is from the new leaving Rivendell scene)! Although I may recycle some just because I like them :) .

Last night, though, I was afraid my screencapping days were over. I got what I thought would be a really nice bunch of shots from leaving Rivendell, the mithril scene in Moria, some of the new Lothlorien material, and the cuts to Frodo while Gandalf is confronting the Balrog. Then I went to the capture file and none of them were there :eek: !! I'd casually noticed the day before that I was up to cap999--and evidently that's all the higher the program will go And it's not that I had 999 caps in the file--I'd deleted well over half of them--but the program numbers the shots sequentially as you take them, and it evidently can't handle more than 3 digits--Ah, now I know who set it up: the same guys who forgot there was a new millennium coming up when they created two-digit year settings! Evidently they weren't satisfied with the Y2K bug so also had to give us the F1K (Frodo 1000) bug as well :p .

I tried a few things, at one point got it to replace cap001--but then it just kept replacing cap001. Finally made a "new folder," moved [i]all the screencaps I had into it so the program's capture file was completely empty, and it seems to have started over from 001. I took just three caps to make sure it was working before I belatedly went to bed, so I hope it keeps working. Today's avatar is from one of those three.

------------------

Edit about 3 hours later: Just remembered there was something else brought up lately that I wanted to comment on--the scene with the fake snow looks like one that Cinematography (I think) magazine printed last year, in the same article that had the picture of Elijah having a close-up shot done with an open flame off to the side (I think someone posted that pic not too long ago, but I'm not sure if it was in this thread). What struck me in the "fake snow" photo in the magazine was that all of the crew members around the set at the time were wearing surgical masks which, of course, the actors couldn't. From the cast commentary on the stuff, breathing it in was even worse than it looked. And I'd never imagined that part of it was actual snow, so that besides everything else it was cold. I remember that when I first saw those two photos (fake snow with crew wearing surgical masks, and open flame a very short distance to the side), I was surprised at the risks being taken by the actors--a year later, those seem like some of the milder ones!

Regarding Elijah wearing his contacts through some of that stuff--I suspect he went without them a lot of the time, at least while doing close-ups.

Hi, tg! Glad you got your computer woes straightened out. :D

Re: contacts... I remember someone ( Elda, I think) pointing out that if he'd been wearing contacts in the Anduin scene, we would have been able to see them in his eyes.

I had an interesting experience the other day--while I was getting my teeth cleaned (ick!) I noticed the hygienist was wearing contacts. I really hadn't ever noticed contacts in someone's eyes before so I was surprised at how easy it was to see them.

(of course, I ended up mentioning that I could see her contacts and someone had told me you could see actor's contacts in movie close-ups, but I hadn't seen any before so that MUST mean their eye color is completely natural.....:D ;) :p...and I got a Strange Look.)

Originally posted by Hallah
First I'd like to say that it has taken a VERY long time for me to warm up to EW's Frodo . . . almost a year as a matter of fact.

I used to say it took me about five minutes to accept him, but I timed it the other day and it was closer to 90 seconds. :p OTOH, it'd been long enough since I'd read the book that my purist was really pretty quiet. Still, EW's Frodo is definitely not book Frodo.

Originally posted by Hallah
Such a bond isn't really grounded in emotion, but in the concepts of duty and honor and responsibility.

Agree with all that, with the minor quibble that, while I don't think that kind of love is grounded in emotion, that doesn't mean it's not emotional. Agape love has a strong element of choice - it's grounded in the will, and often entwined with duty and honor and responsibility - but at its best the emotions are tied into it as well, so the person not only choses to act out of love, but they want to do the loving thing - it's what feels the best.

Originally posted by Hallah
Sam's own sense of self worth was directly tied to how well he served his master, and this made Frodo the absolute center of Sam's life. Later, this deepens. As Frodo grows weaker under the burden of the ring, Sam also takes up the responsibility of being Frodo's emotional cheerleader. He is continuously encouraging Frodo and refuses to allow him to fall into despair, and takes on a role that is almost fatherly. In turn, Frodo not only develops a dependence on Sam, but also grows to respect and admire him.

:not worthy: Beautifully said. This is precisely the "arc" I'd like to see - in the book, Sam respects Frodo from the git go, but we see Frodo learn to respect Sam. I'm not sure PJ can do this arc, in that the two have a more equal relationship from the beginning.

Originally posted by Shadow

Well, now that I have my copy of the EE and have watched it numerous times, it's safe for me to come back here. I really didn't want to be spoiled any more than I already was.

Welcome back, Shadow! I admire your restraint. :)

Originally posted by Shadow

Actually, I think Sam understands very well, but being Frodo's equal in stubbornness, he simply refuses to accept that. For which we're all very grateful.

:D

Totally agree. In the book, I think Frodo's belief that Sam won't understand is patronizing (at least I think that comes from the book - but it must be a thought, because who would he say it to?), but in the movie it doesn't come across that way at all. Not sure what the difference is there, though.

Originally posted by Ghyste

There is the sense that on the Anduin the full ramifications of Sam's mantra of "don't you leave him" suddenly become clear with the realisation that there are more ways in which he could lose Frodo than just the physical.

Ooo, that's way cool. Thanks for the elaboration, Ghyste, I really liked it, and hadn't seen the parallels myself. :)

Only one Strange Look (TM), stormy? Going on how my mind drifts at the dentist's, I'd say you were doing pretty well. :D

Okay, back to riverbank scene. I've really appreciated all the discussion on that, and today I got the bright idea of actually watching it, in context, while four of the five kids were gone (so long as youngest is happy she's dead silent, and she watches FOTR as avidly as she used to watch Flipper, so that works). I'd not seen it in context without a bunch of kids yammering away with comments and questions before.

Don't know if it was the lack of distraction or the discussion here or what, but it worked much better for me. :) Anyone else notice that the shot of Frodo lying down looking unhappy is right after Boromir says, "You're afraid!" and while he says, "All your life you've hidden in the shadows", then the shot returns to Boromir and Aragorn as Boromir contines "scared of who you are, what you are." I think it's not just that Frodo sees the Ring as influencing Boromir - I think he see's "You're afraid!" as a direct accusation (and a valid one), and even the "hidden in the shadows" phrase as applying to him somewhat - he's never been called on to do this sort of thing; others have protected him, and he's recognizing that it's his turn to take action.

Or maybe I'm quite out, there. :p I've been reassembling youngest's latest art project (the fun of it is taking it apart and having mom put it back together, y'see), and listening to middle daughter complain that I haven't come to hang out with her yet through this whole post, so who knows what I'm saying anymore. :rolleyes:

((((((Faculty)))))))

Sheryl

I think in both the boys in WW1 and Frodo and Sam there is a great deal of emotion involved. Loyalty, codes of conduct and shared tragedy etc reinforces it but the love/affection pre- exists.

What I was thinking of here may well be an ANZAC thing and related to our distance and the lengthy time it took troops to get to where they were wanted. NZers and Aussies often joined up in groups of friends (to get in the same company) and then had the long slow boat trip over to Egypt, and then more months cooling their heels, rioting:rolleyes: and training so by the time they got to Gallipoli and later France, they had both formed new and reinforced existing friendships . The horrors thereafter lifted these bonds to a different level.
But if you're already living where the war is, then clearly this does not apply. Should have thought of that :p . Being a bit parochial here...

Now to the real reason I'm online :) I went to see FoTR on the big screen today, after Massive Attack kindly gave the heads up in the Kiwi thread re it being rescreened. I wanted to see it again before watching the SE (as from your comments I fear I will never enjoy the theatrical cut again and I know this sounds sad but it gave me so much joy that I am having loyalty problems here. This is why not seeing the SE is not torturing me: I am happy to wait for Viola).
It blew me away again. It is so a big screen movie. And my delight in EW's performance has just increased exponentially. I can't even quite explain why- it was very (but not quite of course) like seeing the movie again for the first time. I expected the "big" scenes like the swooping camera in Isengard, the panoramic views etc to be better than on tv but somehow the EW scenes also resonated just that bit more strongly. The one tear scene outside Moria was just tragic.

And I got an unexpected bonus, though if I had packed my brains this morning I would have guessed this: I got to see my first big screen TTT ad. And I haven't seen this one before though it had elements in it that others have discussed a long time ago: Theoden's poem, Eowyn's weeping, Arwen on a bier(?), Treebeard's twinkling eye and poor Frodo being weighed down by the Ring with marks on his neck :( Crumbs: that shot was a worry. Frodo sounded so tired.
The music was absent or fairly drear and I have to say that the pacing left a lot to be desired compared to the latest ad from the official site but it was a real thrill to see a new one!!! And it was long! I wonder if it was the "preview" one that PJ said he was doing for the loyal fans? I never got to see that so I'm not sure: did anyone here see that? Does this description sound familiar? I hope that's what it was because as a"loyal" fan I felt really disappointed that I didn't make it to the theatre when the preview thing was on.

Anyway: I'm a happy camper today. :)

Prim

Originally posted by Cadmo
I wonder if it was the "preview" one that PJ said he was doing for the loyal fans? I never got to see that so I'm not sure: did anyone here see that? Does this description sound familiar? I hope that's what it was because as a"loyal" fan I felt really disappointed that I didn't make it to the theatre when the preview thing was on.


Yes, Prim! that was the one! It's also hidden on the SE DVD, so you can see it again, if you like!

:cool:

Yes, Prim, that was the one PJ added to the prints of FOTR before it left the theaters. If you want to get a pretty good copy of it (with a few subtitles), it can be found here:

http://www.warofthering.net/downloads/thetwotowerstrailers.shtml

It's the one that says: The First Preview Trailer (Tag On to The Fellowship of the Ring)

It's the second one from the bottom of the page. It comes in handy when you're away from your DVD (like at work). I love watching it for Theoden's poem, but I fear it's suffering from a severe "lack of Hobbits". Very bad for the constitution. ;) Theoden rocks, though, and poor Frodo--you just want to hug him.

Thank you thank you thank you Bunnie bugs and Louise.

Yes! Yes! Yes! :D
(I need a victory type smiley here)

I get so frustrated at times: limited money, small town, small children: I am a severely hampered Tolkein fan and am so glad that I got to see this one thing.

Prim hugs everyone who has already seen it because now she knows whats in it too!!!:k

OK- be honest- if I can organise seeing the movie and the preview again: is that too sad?
It's half price in day time and the new time (unlike the screenings originally-grrr) is so conveniently inside school hours. Plenty of time to pick up the troops!!! I've seen it 8 times now. How much is too much????
ok I admit quietly here that 8 refers only to cinema screenings...

edit: Bunnie: would you mind pming me to let me know where on the dvd it is? From what I gather some stuff on this packed dvd is hard to find. Viola is bringing it and her computer here and I want to make sure I see it again: just in case neurosis strikes and I don't go to the theatre again.
I can't tell you how glad I am to have seen it: and on the big screen as PJ planned. So I'm totally juvenile today- being a baby is such a blast!!! :D

I say, "GO FOR IT!!!" And it's not sad at all. It's like a beautiful poem or painting you want to experience again and again. Anything that feeds the soul like FOTR should be experienced as often as possible (sez I). :D

I had a heckuva time finding the trailer, but I finally did it. Let's see if I can describe it adequately...

On disk 2, choose "select a scene." Move the cursor to scene 48 and hit "enter." When you're on the Scene 48 page (which is the fanclub credits, I believe) move your cursor to the right and down to the "48" and then push "down" once more. A small picture of the Two Towers should appear. When you see it, simply push "enter."

FOUND IT!!!! Thanks a million BunnieBugs.

Anyone else notice that the shot of Frodo lying down looking unhappy is right after Boromir says, "You're afraid!" and while he says, "All your life you've hidden in the shadows", then the shot returns to Boromir and Aragorn as Boromir contines "scared of who you are, what you are."

This scene of Frodo listening to Boromir and Aragorn argue by the Riverbank reminded me of a kid listening to his parents having a fight. Don't know ... maybe it's just me :)

Prim: There's probably no such thing as "too much" Eight times? Why, compared to some people here you'd be called an amateur :D :p I'll repeat what Louise says: Go for it! And know that we're all jealous of you for being able to see in on the big screen again.


I don't know how many people are aware of the Brit Hoot that has been organised for January 23rd next. See the link here: http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1316 There's already a few Faculty members going but just in case anybody else would like to go. BLOSSOM - I'm looking at you here! I tried to PM you but you don't have the function on. And to anybody else who thinks they can make it, we'd love to see you there.

Hey Prim!

YES YES YES!!!!

-do you even need to ask? :eek:

Waiting til I get home and we get to see the SE uninterrupted is bad for both of our constitutions. ;)

oh dear, time for work :(

have fun (and don't gloat too much because I haven't seen that trailer either, nor had time to find the secret one on the DVD)

viola

(12 days and counting...to get back to middle earth

....oops, new zealand ;) )

Originally posted by Cadmo
I've seen it 8 times now. How much is too much????
ok I admit quietly here that 8 refers only to cinema screenings...
Eight times :eek: :eek: ?! The :eek: 's are for: Only eight times :eek: ?! You've got a long way to go to catch up with me. (Of course, it was in town for seven months, so I only saw it an average of, oh, about three times a month. That's not too obsessive, is it? :p ) My main worry now is how I'm going to manage to keep going to the theater to see TTT while I've also got the DVD of FotR to watch :confused: . I keep telling myself TTT won't be as Frodocentric, so I won't want to see it as often... uh, yeah...

edit: Bunnie: would you mind pming me to let me know where on the dvd it is? From what I gather some stuff on this packed dvd is hard to find.
Just the TTT preview and the MTV spoof. The concept of "Easter eggs" (because you have to hunt for them, I suppose?) has broadened a bit since I first learned about them. They were originally little tidbits programmers stuck into programs to personalize them a bit (some of them found ways to slip their names into game programs, etc.). Those were specifically not known about by the "higher-ups" at the company. Now, like these two features on the DVD, they seem to be added on purpose to give the fans a bit of fun by seeing some things the general public doesn't know is there. Part of me hopes the programmers are still finding ways to slip the original kind through, though ;) .

On p. 97 of the Harem (dated 11-20), elda posted a picture of Christ by Guido Reni, dated 1640, that looks much like Frodo looking heavenward in Osgiliath. It isn't the one I remember, or at least I don't think it is, because the one I remember was in color, browns in contrast to the blues PJ used, but it's awfully close.

originally posted by Cadmo
I get so frustrated at times: limited money, small town, small children: I am a severely hampered Tolkein fan and am so glad that I got to see this one thing.

I can relate, although really South Bend isn't a small town - then again, when I hear "small town" I think of my parents' home town, which has a population under 1000 and is technically a village.... But I think of all the fannish stuff I was involved in when I lived in Denver and it looks pretty much like a desert here. :( Not that I have time for any of that, and it could be going on right regular here without me ever knowing. :rolleyes: But Denver is still an unusually active fannish city - one of the few that still has fan-produced media conventions, for instance. :)

I wondered why they were called Easter Eggs myself - bet you're right, tg. :)

And the cat and infink are fighting over who gets to sit in mom's lap again, think I'd best be going. I'll do something constructive and then they can both be mad at me instead of mad at each other. :p :D

Sheryl

Have any of you all listented to the Production Team's commentary? There is a guy on that who sounds like Elijah! I'm serious. Its a young American voice and everytime he starts talking I automatically think...What are you doing here? :p I cannot figure out who he is. The only other Americans I know on the team are Barry Osborne and Howard Shore....anyone got any inkling to who this guy might be?

I guess I'll just have to watch the whole dang thing all over again....for some odd reason I feel compelled to find this guy! :D

edit: Rats! Right when I thought I had a good excuse to watch this all it was pointed out that this was probably Rick Porras, one of the Producers.. He's on the Bag End test shot. If you get a chance give him a listen and see if you can detect similarities between his and Elijah's speaking patterns....wonder if they are from the same part of the country....?

dream wanderer

Originally posted by dream wanderer
edit: Rats! Right when I thought I had a good excuse to watch this all it was pointed out that this was probably Rick Porras, one of the Producers..

That's GOT to be Rick Porras, because I noticed the same thing about the similarity of his voice to Elijah's. Must be a California thang (since Elijah moved to LA when he was very young, I doubt that he retained any Cedar Rapids inflection!)

Sheryl, the pic I posted in the Harem MAY be in brown tones in reality; the only version I was able to find of it was in E.H. Gombrich's "The Story of Art," where it was reproduced in black and white. :)

Yup, DW, I had the same reaction. Every time Rick P. said something, it was jarring. Like I needed something else to freak me out! And hey, now your excuse can be something about determining why they sound alike. Try to pinpoint the region or some such... It's all about research! :D

Hey, Sheryl, why doncha cruise down to Indy for the TTT line party? It's gonna be geek night! :cool:

ok, so it's been a not to good day with an overran clinic and too many meetings...but

the riverbank scene. I finally got to watch it and it occurred to me that it demonstrates a parallel between Frodo' dilemma and that of Aragorn.

In the mirror scene with Galadriel Frodo says " I know what I must do, but am afraid to do it" (or something like that). IMHO he has been wrestling with that for ages, knowing exactly what he needs to do, but because it is so awful, and, he thinks, that he will die trying to complete it, he can't really accept it.

Similarly with Aragorn, the scene on the riverbank with Boromir, reinforces the self-doubt he expressed in Rivendell to Arwen about his heritage and his role in life. He was trying to negate it , "railing against the future" and probably the inevitability of what was going to happen (as a part elf (?) could he forsee the future?) ...Frodo is doing the same.

I really liked that scene because it put in much more in context and I suspect that JRRT purposely did it as a parallel....

I think Frodo's reaction is part reaction to the fact that Aragorn is more than Strider (think his reaction at the council of Elrond) and now he has a new dimension to add to him....which only adds the human element (to the regal one).

It also makes the challenge of whether he, Aragorn, would also use the ring wrongly, more poignant, and the acceptance, that despite the pull of the ring, that Aragorn would not do that, even more compelling, as is the decision to let him go (*such* wisdom).

It's a measure of the increasing wisdom of both in that scene :)

I also wonder whether those scenes are the turning point for Aragorn to accept his role in life, which is why he directs Legolas and Gimli to "go hunt some orc"


...the truth will lie in the way TTT develops

viola

Hi everyone.

Sheryl. Funny you mentioning that new scene where Aragorn and Boromir are having their heated exchange when the company camp on the banks of the Anduin. I had just done a screencap of Frodo there, as the camera cuts briefly to him.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Frodolistening2.JPG

Like you, EE, when you said it reminded you of a child being witness to his parents arguing, I felt this was another pivotal moment in Frodo's 'screwing himself up' to go on alone. He had been warned by Gandalf before they entered Moria that danger would come from within the company; Galadriel had told him that the Fellowship was already breaking apart, that the quest stood 'on the edge of a knife'. Knowing that Aragorn and Boromir were at odds was further proof of the disruptive and corrupting power of the ring.

Another new addition I like is the scene just after the Midgewater Marshes, when Strider (as he is known to the hobbits then) is singing in Elvish, and Frodo raises himself on an elbow to ask, 'Who is she, this woman you sing of?'

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/FroAragorn.JPG

For me this is a subtle indication that Frodo is different from the other hobbits. He understands this language, or at least he knows enough of it to translate the lyrics of Strider's song. When Arwen and Strider were speaking after Frodo had been stabbed by the Ringwraith, Sam, Merry and Pippin clearly did not know what they were saying. I would love to hear EW actually speak Elvish at some point - a few words would suffice, in that lovely soft voice of his, with his English accent. Oh, the very thought!!!

Hallah, I can't believe Elijah's voice grated on you - :eek: But I'm so glad to hear your opinion of his Frodo is improving.

Dream Wanderer. Yes, that definitely sounds like Rick Porras you are talking about on the production crew commentary. He is very complimentary about EW's performance when he is alone on the riverbank at the end of the film. I like that man. He DOES sound a lot like EW, too, I think.

Tg. I noticed that too, with the fake snow for Caradhras, how all the crew had goggles and masks, and the poor actors had to breath all that stuff in!!! Sounds like Elijah did at least some of his own stunts too. On the director's commentary PJ tells how it was EW and not a stuntman jumping onto Buckleberry Ferry when the black riders were chasing him, and how it wasn't easy as the Ferry was moving away fairly quickly, and it was actually sinking!

Prim - lucky you, seeing Fellowship on the big screen again. That will be great about seeing TTT - beautiful, weary, burdened, angsty, HUGE Frodo!

Talking of angst - Ainon, seeing as you love hooded Frodo so much, I did a few more screencaps from the little pre-Moria talk between Frodo and Gandalf for you.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/HoodedFro.JPG

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/HoodedFro2.JPG

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/HoodedFro3.JPG

Hope that keeps you happy until deluby can work her gif magic on that scene.

Tg, have you got any new caps for us? You said you'd been working on some. Glad to hear you sorted the problem out with your screen capture programme.

EE. Thanks for the info on the Brit Moot. Doubt I'll be able to come. With the recent vet bills we had to pay out for our dog, Holly, who was very ill a few weeks ago, and Christmas coming up, our finances won't stretch to a trip to London. To be honest, I'm not sure I would be that comfortable with a crowd of people I haven't met before - though I realize we do all have a great deal in common, and everyone would be in the same boat - I'm afraid I'm more the quiet type who would probably sit in a corner getting slowly drunk and not contribute much to the conversation. I'm much braver and chatty here than I ever would be in a social situation. Also, I think I may be quite a bit older than a lot of you ladies (sounds like you might have a gent among the company at the Moot too). In fact, I wonder sometimes why it is I am so affected by young Mr. Elijah Wood and his portrayal of Frodo Baggins. Being a more mature lady, it might be more appropriate if I raved on about Sir Ian McKellan or Sir Ian Holm, who are both excellent actors - no, I'm not quite that old - maybe Viggo Mortensen and Sean Bean are nearer the mark - oh, what the heck, I'm 49. There, I've said it - again, both admirable actors and attractive men. But no, it's Elijah who claimed my heart with his portrayal of dear Frodo, who I have loved since I was eighteen or so. It is Elijah who has impressed me with his outstanding talent, beauty, and eminently likeable personaility, and there's not much I can do about it except succumb to temptation and follow and enjoy his work as much as you all do. (I am a bit of a cradle-snatcher anyway - my hubby is almost ten years younger than me). Anyway EE, thanks for thinking about me, and I'll enjoy hearing about it all come January. Be good.

Bye.

This post is partly an attempt to work out a disagreement I had with a purist this morning, and to figure out why I disagreed with him--so, Viola, I'm really not trying to dissect your post :) ... it just had a number of interesting points that helped me focus on Aragorn.

In the new scenes between Aragorn and Elrond and between Aragorn and Galadriel, IMHO we're getting set up for an Aragorn who's even more noble because he doesn't want "that power" but will take it up anyway for the good of the people. This also may be why becoming king hasn't been shown as a condition for marrying Arwen--in the new scene with Galadriel, Aragorn even says he wants Arwen to sail West. If you take that out of the equation, too, his deciding to claim the kingship becomes even more selfless.

I mentioned this in the email discussion group I belong to when someone said they thought the movie should have kept the kingship as a marriage condition, in order to give Aragorn some "motivation." (As if the good of Middle-earth couldn't be enough motivation? :confused: ) There's a whole range of opinions in the group, but one of the uber-purists responded to my post saying that the scenario I gave could be "a" character arc (although not very original, he added :rolleyes: ), but it wasn't Aragorn. I couldn't figure out for hours why this irked me--then realized that I stopped comparing the character arcs between book and movie ages ago! Trying to connect the two isn't even an issue anymore, as far as I'm concerned. I'm more interested in following their development as two very different stories, because they both have some fascinating things going on.

Anyway, all of that really does have something to do with responding to Viola's post :p . I'm not a purist in thinking the movies have to follow the book, but I admit to being a bit of a purist in keeping the two separate (I've seen other books "disappear" into movie versions so much that people don't even realize they're different--The Wizard of Oz is an obvious example--and I really don't want that to happen to LotR :( .) Now, in Viola's post, I don't know if "JRRT" was a typo or a stray thought, or whatever, but I'm going to respond like it was intentional--because that gives a good platform for looking at what I think are some really intriguing differences between the book and the movie--and I'm very curious about where they will lead in TTT (both in the theater and in the extended edition).

Originally posted by Viola Took
the riverbank scene. I finally got to watch it and it occurred to me that it demonstrates a parallel between Frodo' dilemma and that of Aragorn.

I really liked that scene because it put in much more in context and I suspect that JRRT purposely did it as a parallel....
I suspect that PJ did it purposely, as almost everything that's involved is either something he added, or moved from its original context in the book. There is a scene with Frodo and Sam on the riverback in the book, but it's a completely different scene. In the book, Frodo doesn't really make the decision to leave the group until Amon Hen--IMHO it's significant that the movie takes Frodo's "I know what I must do, but I'm afraid to do it," from his confrontation with Boromir at Amon Hen and moves it to the mirror scene; it very much stretches out that whole decision and makes it a big part of the character's development, which I don't really think it is in the book.

The altercation between Boromir and Aragorn isn't in the book at all. Book-Aragorn may sometimes doubt his personal abilities ("All my choices today have proven ill," or something like that), but the whole thing about being reluctant to claim the kingship and not trusting his bloodline is pure movie material.

I think Frodo's reaction is part reaction to the fact that Aragorn is more than Strider (think his reaction at the council of Elrond) and now he has a new dimension to add to him....which only adds the human element (to the regal one).
At the Council in the book, Frodo does have a reaction to finding out that Aragorn is the heir of Isildur, but it's related to the Ring--He jumps up and says, "Then it belongs to you, and not to me at all!" (With no need, of course, to explain what "it" is.) Aragorn's reponse to him centers on the same thing: "It belongs to neither of us, but it has been ordained that you should hold it for a while." Someone pointed out not long after the movie was released that after the revelation at the Council of Elrond, movie-Frodo never again calls Aragorn "Strider"--as a sign of respect, maybe? But that's not true in the book--in fact, Frodo's the one who says, "Strider will look after them," at the end of FotR. So I don't think book-Frodo ever completely loses sight of Aragorn as human.

But movie-Frodo's character development rests on his being dependent on others, first Gandalf and then Aragorn (because his major development is becoming independent). When the Boromir-Aragorn confrontation breaks out, Gandalf is gone and Frodo has been left with Aragorn. The comparison made to a child listening to his parents argue may not be so far off--when you're depending on someone for your stability and safety it's unsettling to find out that they might not be completely stable. And with Frodo lying there with Galadriel's warnings in his mind, IMHO the argument could have helped move him in the direction of leaving the group (realizing that he can't find stability and safety even with Aragorn).

I also wonder whether those scenes are the turning point for Aragorn to accept his role in life, which is why he directs Legolas and Gimli to "go hunt some orc"
IMHO, the new scenes in the SE really do give more context for the decision Aragorn has to make--the ones with Elrond and Galadriel (she's as tough on him as she is on Frodo--if you don't do it, no one will), as well as the argument with Boromir which very likely made Aragorn look at himself more truthfully. I think that builds up to his taking of Boromir's wrist-braces--more importantly, IMO, Gondorian ones, with the White Tree.

So I do think there's a parallel there between Aragorn and Frodo in the movie. The scene by the riverback makes them both look at their situations more realistically, and eventually build up into Frodo leaving by himself and Aragorn taking up the imagery of the White Tree--both, IMHO, what each of their character arcs were leading up to throughout FotR. And, as I said w-a-y above, the movies seem to be setting up an Aragorn who's as selfless as Frodo, in his own way--so we get another parallel there. I don't think book-Aragorn ever quite rises to that level.


...the truth will lie in the way TTT develops
Oh, yes, yes, yes :cool: !

Thanks to Viola for some thought-provoking statements, and to anyone who put up with reading all of this :o . It really helped me sort out some ideas. :)

-----------------

Blossom's pics went up while I was writing--lovely, thanks. I didn't have a chance last night to attempt anything new, but hopefully will be able to tonight (I'm just about ready to leave the office at 6:40 pm).

Speaking of "moots," for any lucky enough to be close, The Tolkien Society is having a celebration at Oxford for Tolkien's eleventy-first birthday in January--and I'd expect there will be people of all ages at that one :) . (BTW, I'm 48 ;) . But I'm also thousands of miles away :( .)

Originally posted by BLOSSOM
In fact, I wonder sometimes why it is I am so affected by young Mr. Elijah Wood and his portrayal of Frodo Baggins. Being a more mature lady, it might be more appropriate if I raved on about Sir Ian McKellan or Sir Ian Holm, who are both excellent actors - no, I'm not quite that old - maybe Viggo Mortensen and Sean Bean are nearer the mark...

Blossom, don't feel alone! There are also ladies in the Harem who are 'in your general area', so to speak. Hey, everyone deserves to salivate over a boy toy every now and then....:D

Speaking of....THANKS for the hooded Fro screen caps! I love Hooded Fro!

:);)

Now, Blossom, don't be silly. People of all ages can (and do) appreciate Elijah Wood's special qualities, from babies to great-grandmas. You're right there in the middle of that range. What was it Miranda Otto said: "Elijah has the innocence of a child, the wisdom of a ninety-year-old man, and the grace of an angel." And the look of a Renaissance hobbit, I might add. He's a talented and charismatic young man who seems to be a very nice guy to boot. What's not to admire?

I know that some people don't like Gandalf's entrance to the Shire as well in the EE. But I thought that Frodo's expressions when he's telling G. that Bilbo's been acting "strange" were excellent. That sort of side-long glance to see his reaction, with G. immediately looking away and trying to look nonchalant. Just a new little tidbit I especially liked among many others. 28 days. Do any of you have your tickets yet? I don't, but by this weekend, I will (I hope). Hurrah for advance computer selling. Then all I have to do is maintain my sanity for 28 days, with all of the TV shows, magazine articles and other stuff to look at. I managed to get the last December issue of Empire at Border's tonight, so I'm looking forward to poring over it. See y'all later (I thought it was cute that Elijah said "y'all" during the commentary--he must be from southern Iowa). :D

It's 4am and I can't sleep...ideal time to check KD ;)

tg -thanks for the reply, and no, it wasn't at all boring - more like stimulating!.

I agree that I'm probably getting the movie and the book intertwined, but...

I'm re-reading them at the moment and seem to be concentrating more on the character development, than the detail of what is actually on the page...your comments made me analyse why I wrote what I did.

I got the impression of the parallel development before I saw the film (well, maybe I'd seen it once) but it was "reading between the lines" trying to understand why the characters, particularly frodo and aragorn behaved the way that they did, that lead me to the conclusions in the previous post. Yes PJ has moved scenes around and added dialogue and new scenes, but only to clarify what the book "glosses over" and leaves for us to figure out...it needs to be more direct in the visual representation of a film (or three :) )

For example, aragorn is in exile (self imposed the book suggests) and not intending to go back to Gondor, despite the fact that he is last of the line. The book implies that there is a major shift in his attitude that leads him to help Frodo and the fellowship (at the same time behaving like his heritage suggests that he should, while seriously raising the possibility that his involvement may lead to his death).

Then I looked at the changes in Frodo as he accepts the quest and acknowleges that he has to be the one (reinforced by Galadriel) and saw the parallels.

Maybe because of that I saw what PJ had done in the movie, which deals with those points and it subtly reinforced what I'd been thinking anyway (?) It's true too that when you re-watch a movie as often as LOTR that you tend to pick up all the subtleties and give them more importance/significance than if you only saw it the once.

does that make sense? -or is trying to think at 4am a lost cause :confused:

I'm sure there was more I was going to explain but I should probably go back to bed.

...I shall go back and re-read again and maybe bring back some quotes from the book (in a few days...RL allowing)

viola

Hello all!
Gifs are back. :p

1. From the newly added Sackville-Bagginses scene.
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/se01.gif

2. Frodo's reaction to Bilbo's words, a little eyebrow action here.
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/se02.gif

3. "Sam, wood elves!!"
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/se03.gif
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/se03.gif


4. "Me neither Sam." *swoon*
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby3/se04.gif
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby3/se04.gif



Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
This scene of Frodo listening to Boromir and Aragorn argue by the Riverbank reminded me of a kid listening to his parents having a fight. Don't know ... maybe it's just me I thought the exact same thing! :eek: :p Those two sequences at the river bank are my favorite new scenes in SE.
Thanks for those screencaps, BLOSSOM!
Do you remember the last shot of TTT preview where Gollum reaches for Sam and Frodo then Frodo suddenly opens his eyes? That shot looks identical to the shot on the river bank except the open eye action. Actually I think they used the mirror image of the river bank shot and speeded it up a little bit in the preview . Very effective as the end shot of the preview. I remember one of Sign's trailer had a same scene with Mel Gibson opening his eyes abruptly, and I was like "hey, that looks familiar." :p

BTW, thank you Narya! :)

****edit****
TORN has posted scans of UK's Sunday Express TTT special:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1037855104

Popping out of the shadows for a very brief moment to say:

Thanks for the gifs, Deluby, and for the screencaps, Blossom!
(I miss that little swooning smiley; - I could really need that these days!)

And the Sunday Express - that ring of fire pic is amazing, is it a photo montage? - I must study it some more (and read the whole article).

Bye!

BLOSSOM: Sorry you won't be able to make it to the Hoot. We would have liked to have seen you there. I do think we'll all be a little nervous, and I can't guarantee that I won't be the one sitting in a corner slowly getting drunk :D 49 is definitely not too old for admiring Elwood. No age is too old. From what I can tell those going to the Hoot come in all ages. Would a trip to London just to see The Movie still be out of the question??

Someone pointed out not long after the movie was released that after the revelation at the Council of Elrond, movie-Frodo never again calls Aragorn "Strider"--as a sign of respect, maybe?

I think Frodo called Aragorn "Strider" during the Watcher In The Water scene. In blind panic at being attached by a cherry picker :D he might have forgotten that Aragorn was Isildur's heir.

Maeglian---I think that ring of fire picture was a publicity shot from some magazine out last year.

I was sorting out some pictures I downloaded during the last couple of days and found two recent mag cover that I think worth posting, so here they are. :)
The first pic here, I know we've seen this shot many many times, but I don't recall we had any close-up looks before.

http://www.themagazine.ca/site/images/boardpics/dec_2002_cover.jpg

http://www.ifrance.com/ahobbitstale2/scans/cinelive_ttt01.jpg


BTW, just finished listening to the new complete TTT soundtrack d/l from Kazaa in glorious 320kbps, and all I can say is WOW. Couple of the tracks are really sad and got me a bit emotional. "Samwise the Brave" has part of "the breaking of the fellowship" and the shire theme, but the end gets a bit creepy, hmmm, what scene could that be?? The lyric of "Gollum's Song" and the way Emiliana Torrini sings it made me want to hug that slimy ex-hobbit. :eek:

Sigh, I have no willpower AT ALL!! I was telling myself that I will buy TTT soundtrack on its release day but won't listen to it until I see the movie, but here I am, listening to the whole album on a loop. :rolleyes: http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/hammer.gif

Wow, deluby, fantastic gifs! Thank you! But what was this... "*swoon*"? :p

Heck, sometimes there's more swooning in here than in the harem. :eek: Certainly many of the most delish pics are in here. Speaking of which... Blossom, could I prevail upon you for one more cap of Hooded Fro? You might post it in the harem since I am likely to melt into butter when I see it. It's the moment when he says "What do you mean?" His head is tilted a little differently and I just love it. And the others are right - you're only as old as Frodo makes you feel - which makes me 16! :D

I'm with you, tg, on keeping the two stories seperate. I accepted long ago that the two media are too different to compare, so I can love the book as is and I can love the movie as is. So long as the movie is consistent with itself, I'll have no problems with it.

Edit ---
I checked out that link to Teen Hollywood with the blurb about the hobbit boys spending New Year's together in England. There was a link there to another story wherein Elwood speaks out for free music on the internet: http://www.teenhollywood.com/d.asp?r=23737&cat=1027. The most interesting bit in that article, though, was this...
... Wood - who is planning to launch his own music career in the future ...
Oh really? This is news to me. :confused:

Originally posted by Elevensies
The most interesting bit in that article, though, was this...

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
... Wood - who is planning to launch his own music career in the future ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Oh really? This is news to me. :confused: This may be referring to a comment he made about wanting to own a record company. I don't know though... the above quote makes it sound like something he has definitely decided to do. But, you know how the press is...

And deluby, lovely gifs, as always! My right-click-save gets a workout everytime you post!;)

Blossom, I second Elevensies' request for that last hooded Fro! Only... could I prevail upon you to post it here? I don't venture into the harem that often (I just can't find the time, mostly!), but I visit here everyday. I promise not to swoon too loudly. :D

I've read the Sunday Express Interview. Can't find all of the EJW part of it, though. But never mind, I guess Luthiea gave us the good bits earlier. I really like that Circle-of-fire pic, too bad it's just a newspaper scan. And it's recycled from last year?!? Not that I mind *this* time, but new pics *are* awfully nice too.....

I just have to say, this quote from EJW gets my vote for "best pretending to be clueless performance" of the week:People are not ultra-fanatical about Frodo. I guess he's completely right. Ultra-fanatical is a very strong word. No ultra-fanatics around here, luckily. Noone. Nope. None. Never. No way. Not ever.
Edit: I just noticed that USAtoday apparently has dubbed the LotR film fans "Frodo Fanatics". Some strange coincidence, no?

But as for the comparison he makes with Hayden Christensen, well, - *sure* I would recognize H.C if I met him. After all, I *was* treated to that smarmy AotC trailer *every single time* I went to the cinema to see FotR earlier this year. :rolleyes: :D


Thanks for the gifs, Deluby, and the scans. The French Magazine has another version of the Hamletian Hobbit pose. It's so beautiful and so sad.......... Those *eyes*! (If anyone knows of a place that pic is posted on its own, i'd really like to know.)

Going back to earlier posts here, but I just have to say how much I liked and agreed with Ghyste's comparison between the Feather Pillow scene and the "I cannot eat" riverbank scene. They are such incredible effective contrasts to each other, illustrating perfectly the horrible toll of the mental journey Frodo has travelled from the Shire till the banks of the Anduin. (*sob*).

Blossom, thank you for the caps. :) :)

From EE about the Brit hoot
I do think we'll all be a little nervous, and I can't guarantee that I won't be the one sitting in a corner.... It's going to be crowded in that corner; 'cause timid, shy Maeg is sure to be keeping you company there............
But I *am* going!

Hi there!

I FINALLY got to see the SE DVD last night, at my friends flat! It was great, I was on tenterhooks sitting waiting for it to start. My favourite bits were - when Frodo and Sam see the elves leaving ME (the music played during this scene was hypnotic, I was nearly in tears watching it!); Gandalf and Frodo talking about the Ring and all the Elvish that they left in it!! I never realised there was going to be so much more Elvish, it was beautiful. Oh and I love the gift-giving scenes too. And, erm, all of it really! Can't wait to see it again when I get it for Xmas, and to see all the other goodies on the DVDs too, there wasn't enough time for that last night :(

Is the TT soundtrack available yet? I'd tried to listen to some of the bits from a soundtrack site but Realplayer was guffed up again, so no joy.

Maeg - I thought that aswell, lol. Not ultra-fanatical about Frodo indeed! :D


Elevensies - that quote was taken from an interview Lij did with The Face magazine.

Here's some of the interview, apologies if it's been posted before. PS apologies if anyone is offended by the 'B' word, I'll take it out if you let me know, the autocensor left it in so so did I! -

The 21-year-old Ringbearer loves MP3s, the word 'bollocks', Radiohead's albums and - gasp - Simon Cowell. 'Nine of ten times he was spot on,' he tells John McKie.

Jm - Hello, Elijah. Where are you?

EW: Where are you?

JM - London.

EW: Fantastic! I'm going to be spending the New Year in England at a farmhouse in Penrith. Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan [fellow hobbits] will be there. It's going to be a very hobbity New Year. It's only an hour from Scotland and I want to go there too.

JM -So...where are you?

EW: I'm at home in LA.

JM -Was it wise to tell people that you actually have The Ring from the film in your house, with burglars about?

EW: I guess it was kind of foolish but I keep it safe though I
haven't seen it in some time. It's one of seven or eight we used for the movie.

JM - You can't say that. You told everyone last year it was The One True Ring.

EW: Uh... OK (swiftly backtracking) It is The One Ring then.

JM -As well as finishing The Two Towers this year, you also voiced
Frodo in the videogame. Have you played it yet?

EW: I have! You can't play Frodo, but you can be Aragorn, Gimli or
Legolas. There is a game on the Xbox in which you can be Frodo.

JM -I'm guessing spending 15 months with a largely British cast was bad for your swearing.

EW: I swore before but after that, I became a gold standard swearer. I'm a huge fan of the word '****'. It sounds good in an English or American accent. 'Bollocks' is a good word too.

JM -You've often said you'd like to do something in the music industry. What?

EW: If I was to do anything, it would be to start a small record
companyand see how that goes. I love the idea of a doing a radio
show.

JM -What station would it be on?

EW: Probably Radio 1 'cause I hear all the other stations don't play very good stuff. It still has the Peel sessions and he's sparked a revolution for many bands.

JM -What about starting a band?

EW: I'd love to. Every man has rock dreams. But I love music too much to do something really bad.

JM -So what are you listening to?

E: There's a great Glasgow music scene: The BMX Bandits, Belle &
Sebastian, there's a band from the early eighties - the Vaselines.
And The Raincoats are great, too, but they're English. I love the new Queens Of The Stone Age record. I used to love a band called Simian but their new record is bizarre.

JM -And you love Radiohead, who are recording their new stuff in LA...

EW: I know! I've been tempted to sneak out to the studio. I'm a huge fan and I respect the fact that they're constantly trying to
evaluate what they do. I've downloaded 11 of their new songs, which they played in gigs this year.

JM -Are you a fan of MP3ing stuff?

EW: Yes. If I were to download someone's record online, I would
listen to it and then buy the album. I love being able to do it.

JM -What did you think of Nelly and Britney doing anti-downloading ads?

EW: The whole anti-MP3 thing pisses me off and especially Lars
Ulrich. People had the opportunity to listen to bands they've never heard before. It was doing more good than harm but people with greed for money were trying to stop a revolution. I don't like his attitude. (Adopts a gruff, macho voice) 'I will do everything in my powers to shut off their power.'

JM -Are you really going to appear in The Flaming Lips' film 'Christmas On Mars'?

EW: Yes, I hope so. I went to see them in LA and they asked me if I'd like to be in the movie and I said (high-pitched squeal) 'YEE-EE-ESS'. They were meant to be filming in November but they had to go on tour with Beck. If I were them, I'd put Beck in front of me too.

JM -How's the fencing coming along?

EW: I stopped fencing when I was 15 but when we started production on LOTR I had to learn a bit more, but then Frodo didn't have to fight. So I stopped again.

JM -But Madonna's fencing now, in her 'Die Another Day' video

EW: That song is OK but I'm angry because (raises voice) that is NOT a James Bond theme song, it's a dance song. There should be more orchestration.

JM -Who should be singing it, then?

EW: You know what band would do a great Bond song, just for ****s and giggles, that band who did 'Becoming More Like Alfie'... The Divine Comedy, before they became a modern rock band.

JM -'Just for ****s and giggles...?'

EW: It's a great phrase. I'm passing it on to you.

JM -Your first role was in a Paula Abdul video, aged eight. Are you
impressed by her American Idol comeback?

EW: It was an interesting move. She may have been alittle too
sensitive not to hurt anyone's feelings. It's important to tell people what you really think which is what Simon Cowell did.

JM - Did you like him?

EW: I love Simon Cowell and nine times out of ten he was spot on.

JM -Have you finally read the LOTR trilogy?

EW: (Caught out) Oh! You know what's really terrible... I haven't.
It's a result of being part of it. The first thing you wanna do when you stop working on a movie is put your mind on something different. The next time you speak to me, I will have read all of them. I promise.

JM -Finally, who'd win the fight - Frodo or Harry Potter?

EW: Frodo would, being the hobbit. But I would ask Harry to remove his glasses first.
:)

I especially love the part where he talks about his plans for New Year. :D I'm going to be spending the New Year in England at a farmhouse in Penrith...It's only an hour from Scotland and I want to go there too. Great idea, Elijah! Wow, to think he's going to be only hours away from me! *Starts hyperventilating* Wow. And Lij, honey, if you're reading this - Let me just say as a Scottish National that our country is wonderful and you'd be made very welcome here and that if (or sorry that should say when) you come to visit be sure to visit Glasgow where there are wonderful music shops aplenty, you'd love it there and there's lots of great live music venues frequented by Idlewild and the like...and...and...If you need a tourguide, I'm available 24/7, I'd be most obliged to help out, anything you want to see, don't be shy to ask, my number is 01.............. :D Starts sending hypnotic messages via the internet

*Elijah, come to Scotland...*

*Elijah, come to Scotland...*

*ELIJAH, COME TO SCOTLAND!!!*

There, think I made that quite clear... :p

Gonna go and calm down now, will return when I'm more coherent. ;)

Bye for now,

((((Faculty))))

LOL Luthiea!
Speaking of those 3 hobbits, here's a tidbit from Eonline's Ted Casablance's gossip collumn. Lord of the Cha-Ching
Boys that shop together stay together.

And you thought only gaggles of giggling girls set out on myriad shopping sprees. Well, those hippity-happy ring-bearing dudes are dissing that sexist notion. This past weekend, head Hobbit Elijah Wood and his friendly fellas Dominic Monaghan and Billy Boyd hit Urban Outfitters on la trendy Melrose Avenue. Hell-Ay, natch.

The browsing boys were looking California cazh in flip-flops and tees as they ambled through the store in search of rugged threads to buy. While their shopping venture at Rock 'n' Ralphs reeked of a more festive occasion, this par-tick day was a tad more butch, less ecstatic.

Amused customers tittered a bit at seeing the barely whiskered trio hunting through the clothing and housewares cluttering the hip shop, but the buds barely noticed. Too busy on the homey hunt. Quietly, 'course. :D


I happen to have that hooded frodo piccy on hand, so here it is. BTW, is it just me or do this one and the angel shot from the trailer have a similar pose? :confused:
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_000.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/frodo130s.jpg

Originally posted by dream wanderer

edit: Rats! Right when I thought I had a good excuse to watch this all it was pointed out that this was probably Rick Porras, one of the Producers.

I haven't listened to the Production Team's commentary (although it's on my list...), but I do remember being startled on the first of the background discs because a guy sounded so much like EW. I'm bad with names, but Rick Porras sounds right - a younger guy, black black hair.

elda,
Found a color version, I'm still not sure. :p No, really, I think that's the one - but St. Sebastian paintings were still my first thought on seeing the EW shot I think. Anyhow, never linked to these guys before, have to see if this works...

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/WebMedia/Images/27/NG271/eNG271.jpg

Originally posted by Elevensies

Hey, Sheryl, why doncha cruise down to Indy for the TTT line party? It's gonna be geek night!

*sigh* Thanks for the invite. :) I appreciate the thought, but I don't see it happening. I promised hubby I'd see it with him the first time, and he's just not going for a trip to Indy for it. :( Maybe next year, when we're not heading for TN the Friday after. :p I really wish I could see it with someone from the Faculty, though - or at least talk to them right after. I miss seeing a much-anticipated premiere with a group of fannish friends. Hubby is a LOTR geek, but somehow it's just not the same. :D

Originally posted by Viola Took

It's a measure of the increasing wisdom of both in that scene.

Ooo, I like that idea of there being a parallel arc between Frodo and Aragorn. I think you're right - there is a sense where they're both fighting their destiny through FOTR (at least in PJ's version). :cool:

Blossom,
Thanks for the screen caps of hooded Frodo. Maybe you should just sneak down to London for a showing with a couple of KDers, instead of trying to make the very first showing and that crowd. Then again, you might try coming out for the Moot to give Maeglian some moral support. You can hide out in your corner together. ;) Oh, and I'm 42.

Originally posted by tgshaw

And, as I said w-a-y above, the movies seem to be setting up an Aragorn who's as selfless as Frodo, in his own way--so we get another parallel there. I don't think book-Aragorn ever quite rises to that level.

Agreed. And yet there are hints that PJ's going to turn Faramir into a bit of a git. :confused:

Sorry, I'm anticipating again. Sheryl trouts herself.

Originally posted by Louise

28 days. Do any of you have your tickets yet?

Our best info is that you can only get tickets ten days ahead. Not that our "best" info is necessarily any too good. :rolleyes: Contacts, I need contacts! "I've got contacts in my book and in my eyes..." - er, no, problem is, I haven't either!

Originally posted by Luthiea

Starts sending hypnotic messages via the internet

I'll join deluby in that LOL! Thanks for the article, too.

deluby,
Thanks for the gifs and the hooded pic and the angelic Frodo (can't have too many of those), and the magazine covers and and... You're too good to us, kid. :D

azalea,
Maybe someone else will respond to your Aragorn gripes - come to think of it, I think I posted a while back that Aragorn's sort of "testing" Frodo when he hauls him upstairs and flings him around - but I've always wondered what people who haven't read the books think when he grins at the sight of Lothlorien. It doesn't bother me that he hustles them outside of Moria because you can see he looks so incredibly stunned when Gandalf goes down - but here he's just lost a friend and he's grinning? It threw me for a second when I first saw the movie, and then it was, "Oh, well, of course." But what do people who've never read the books think there?

Never remember to ask that when I talk to someone who hasn't read the books. I should toss it out on an Aragorn thread I suppose.

And azalea's attitude about the thread is much better than my hubby's - he said tonight, "That thread has reached thirty pages, and I'm only up to 4! I'm never going to catch up. That's it, I'm skipping ahead."

Sheryl

edit:

Hey, what happened? There WAS a post from azalea there, really!

firstly: Azalea- if you don't enter the Fac and say something positive about either EW or EW's performance as Frodo I'm going to....I'm going to.... well... not go to see TTT with you!!!! So there!


and if you believe that you're really a very easily deluded woman. So. Post already!!!

secondly:No ultra-fanatics around here, luckily. Noone. Nope. None. Never. No way. Not ever.

No Maeglian, no ultra fanatics here at all. LOL. Nope. We are all soooo normal. :p
Good grief- does this man inhabit the same planet or is he living in a world of his own?? Perhaps he's more computer illiterate than we think. Or modest.

Lutheia- I am willing EW in your direction. :D

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
Blossom, I second Elevensies' request for that last hooded Fro!

I see Deluby already did – but I have a question for those of you who use Imagemagician – does the software let you lighten your pics? I find screen caps direct from the program are always too dark, which is why I always lighten mine… it makes them far easier to see…

For example http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_000.jpg and http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/UltimateFroSwoon.jpg – some of those posted shots are very nice but would be even nicer brighter! Such as….
http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/SWOON000.jpg
http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/FroSWOON008.jpg

I've wanted to see them side by side!

And there is a lot you can do with color enhancement to really bring out the image in a dark scene...
http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/FroSWOON005.jpg

This is of course an entirely selfish post on Ariel's part, since she is blind as a bat and wants to SEE these gorgeous shots!

Originally posted by Maeglian
But as for the comparison he makes with Hayden Christensen, well, - *sure* I would recognize H.C if I met him.

Well, you are doing better than me... I don't think I'd know him if I was kicking him... (Umm... who is he anyway? - Aotc? Oh, wait... now I get it... I never saw it... perhaps that IS for the best?) :o

:p

Ariel

from Sheryl
azalea,
Maybe someone else will respond to your Aragorn gripes - come to think of it, I think I posted a while back that Aragorn's sort of "testing" Frodo when he hauls him upstairs and flings him around - but I've always wondered what people who haven't read the books think when he grins at the sight of Lothlorien. It doesn't bother me that he hustles them outside of Moria because you can see he looks so incredibly stunned when Gandalf goes down - but here he's just lost a friend and he's grinning? It threw me for a second when I first saw the movie, and then it was, "Oh, well, of course." But what do people who've never read the books think there?Hey, what happened? There WAS a post from azalea there, really!.

Sorry Sheryl, it was rightly pointed out to me that this was an EW thread and I was discussing Aragorn..albeit with Frodo in the scene. Hense the removal of the post. SURPRISE - it's back!! But I won't stray from the true thread ever again I promise!

For those who are wondering what I am blathering about...here is what I posted and then removed to re-post in a more appropriate forum.

First of all - 30 pages! This IS a popular thread!

I have been ambling through the various pages for some time and can't remember this point being raised...if it has, apologies to the masses.
I have a problem( Prim/Viola don't start with me!).;) Since Jan this year when I first viewed LOTR, the scene where Strider flings Frodo into the room in Bree seemed unnecessarily violent and out of character with Strider/Aragorn in the book. Again, in the scene post Gandalfs plummet into the depths of KD, Aragorn seems rather callous in demanding that Legolas and Boromir get the Hobbits 'up and going'. YES-yes-yes, I know the Orc risk but really, Frodo is crying and he looks so...desperate! In the book he shows significantly more compassion by stating:

"We must do without hope...at least we may yet be avenged. Let us gird ourselves and weep no more! Come! We have a long road, and much to do".

I have always felt Aragorn to be strong, resolute, self contained but compassionate. The Bree scene shows a lack of self restraint and to me it just doesn't fit with the character.

Its a niggle...

:( :confused: :):cool:


Cadmo, here is my post and forgive me please for not waxing lyrical about EW. I agree he is a stunning actor and has almost etherial good looks. But ( and don't hit me) he does fall over a lot in the movie doesn't he?!;) :D;)

No time, but I have a quick question for you, Faculty: does anyone know what scene(s) Elijah would have been wearing a motion capture suit for? There are pics of him running up and down a big empty room with a blue pad at the end. If he were running up Mt. Doom, it would be uphill, right? I can't think of anything else where Frodo might run, can you? He's not even wearing his Frodo wig, but some sort of motion capture headset. Unless it was in Moria, running from the orcs? Oh, and if you want to know where the pics are, the site is below. Warning: the comments are just what you might expect from a thread titled "Lij in Spandex".

http://always.ejwsites.net/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=pics;action=display;num=1037377430;start=

Louise, they did motion capture with all of the members of the Fellowship, in order to be able to digitally recreate them in scenes where they were entirely using the miniatures. Thus, the scenes in Moria as they ran from the Balrog, and the scene where they are all running across the bridge in Moria, are ENTIRELY digitally done from the motion capture. It's brilliant, I think - they all look like themselves, because their unique way of moving was captured, but ITS NOT REALLY THEM. It's the Fellowship of the Pixels.

Way cool.

Ah. Thanks. Well I knew they did blue screen, but didn't know they even digitally replaced the actor's head and body in motion. I mean, in the places where you could see them running, it usually looked like the little folk, for the most part. I thought that was the case on the bridge. But then again, I'm still amazed at how well the scene of Boromir carrying Frodo out after Gandalf's fall looked. It really looked like he had a little Elijah there, scream and all. I guess in Moria after the cave troll, that was where they used it. I would have thought the hobbits would run together there, but I guess there's some technical reason to do it separately. Interesting, and pretty cool. By the way, is this on one of the DVD things I haven't had a chance to look at yet? If so, which one? I'd like to see the finished scene for comparison.

They used a variety of techniques - obviously they did close-ups, and the running scenes where you are close enough (just above or behind or in front of them) to see the 'size double' effects, were actually the real people (and their doubles). The digital ones are the ones from further away - like when you see them from very high up looking down the full length of the chamber, and the entire 'running across the bridge' scene.

I don't remember exactly where this information is - I think either on disc three in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum", or on disc four in either "Scale" or "Weta Digital". (Most likely the last one.)

Good morning everyone.

Elevensies and Bunnie, I had just sorted my DVD out to oblige for requested hodded Fro when I scanned down the page and noticed that deluby had beaten me to it. Btw, so happy your gifs are back, deluby - thanks.

Ariel, do you know I have never even thought or tried to lighten the screencaps. I don't know if I can do it on my programme, but I'll have a play around with it later and see. Thanks for the sugggestion.

Luthiea - you jammy person you. Elijah in Scotland (well, almost) for New Year!!!:eek: :) ;) :D :cool:

Prim, Viola and Azalea, the three of you make me LOL.

I am getting a little :confused: Is it a 'hoot' or a 'moot' that's going on in London come January? I think I typed 'moot' and then noticed someone else had put 'hoot'. Trust me to get it wrong. :rolleyes: You know, theres's one half of me who would love to come and share the day with you all, and the other half who is just too shy and lacking in confidence for such a venture - looks like they'll need a fairly large 'corner to get slowly drunk in.' for us nervous types. As it is, EE, (and once again, thanks for including me - I do appreciate the thought) finances dictate anyway at the moment, so even if I did pluck up the courage I would have to say 'can't make it' this time. Although she is much better, Holly has to have more blood tests done next week, and with what it's cost us already at the vets, Christmas coming up, TV licence due anyday, etc... the list goes on. (Is that a chorus of violins I hear?) And of course I have to keep a little back for trip to see TTT in December at our local cinema! Sorry. But I know you'll all have a lovely time.

One more comment on the SE DVD. Did you all like the moment - I think it's either in 'A day in the life of a hobbit' or 'Cameras in Middle-Earth' on disc four - where they're winding up for the day after filming in the cornfield, and Elijah says something like, ' The birthday boys are going to the 'Alcove' (I think) tonight, so if anyone wants to come, it would be nice to see you there.' (or words to that effect). One of the other hobbits (Billy or Dom) cries 'The drinks are on Elijah!' and the three of them hug. I tried to do a cap of that but they're all laughing and jumping around so much I couldn't catch a clear picture. It's a lovely moment.

Louise and Narya. It was amazing how they did all that digital stuff. I THOUGHT it was Elijah I saw wearing that body-hugging licra-motion-capture suit thingy!!!!!! I'm sure I heard someone on the commentary say that for the Bridge of Khazad-dum crossing, they put each little digital person in separately, so they filmed it nine times. (Or am I going completley loopy?) Anyway, watching the extra material makes you really appreciate the sheer amount of work, dedication, energy, love etc. that went into the making of this trilogy. I salute them all.

Well, I have nothing constructive to say at the moment, so I'm off for a coffee, and to follow Ariel's advice and see if it's possible for me to brighten up those dark screencaps.

See you later.

But ( and don't hit me) he does fall over a lot in the movie doesn't he?!
Thwunk!!!

Don't believe Azalea troops, I watched the theatrical release with her on her computer and she made no complaint at all at seeing the EW stuff again. In fact a gleam appeared in her eyes that closely echoed mine (tho I admit a certain elf made her stop in her tracks: what can I say, she's young).

Blossom: I'm 41. and if I ever get to the UK to see Viola on her home ground I would love to meet you. We could sit in a corner together!!! I'm good at that!!! And EE and Lutheia !! We could one day have a Fac mini moot. (Have I missed any UK loungers??? I'm always a bit vague on who lives where...)
Blossom- in the recent past the Harem had a Moot but were afraid the thread title Harem Moot might attract attention they did not deserve so changed it to "Marem Hoot" and the word hoot stuck since from all accounts they certainly did have a "hoot".

So they put EW in a lycra suit. They did the same for Andy Serkis(Gollum) didn't they? It must be very odd running around a stage in a strange suit. I still puzzle every now and then about the account of EW rolling downhill on his own- Gollum to be inserted later. How the heck do you do that??

Has anyone had ads on tv for TTT? I haven't seen any yet except for a promotion using it to get people to watch a certain channel. And the very few references I've seen have no hobbits, so no EW/Frodo???:confused: What is New Line thinking??? Only a month to go and hardly any hype at all???

nb Going to see FoTR in the Big Screen again next week, children's chicken pox willing. Yay. :)

Prim

[Brit Hoot Promotion]

Blossom: I've just noticed the Brit Hoot discussion going on in here and, as titular organiser of the event (for my sins), I thought I had better chime in to say that if your finances permit you would be very welcome to join us. That goes for any other UK Faculty members who are not already signed up (or anyone else, since we have a growing overseas contingent).

Meeting up with on-line friends can be a bit intimidating. I can well remember my trepidation first time I went off to a hotel to spend a weekend with a bunch of people I had never met in the flesh. It turned out to be one of the best weekends of my life and the start of some very good RL friendships.

Please don't anyone worry about age issues - LoTR & Frodo obsession unites the generations! For the record, I will be 41 by the time the Hoot takes place, so I'm hardly a spring chicken myself. Likewise, no-one is under any obligation to prove that they're the life and the soul of the party when what they really want is a nice cozy chat :)

[/Brit Hoot Promotion]

RE: Brighten up pictures:
Usually I don't adjust screencaps because I like the original color, but those moria and river bank scenes are really dark, so I took Ariel's advice too :p and played around with color adjustment and contrast enhancement using Paintshop. I didn't like what I got with brighten up in color adjustment choice though, as usual, it makes me feel like I'm looking at the pic with a veil over it, :confused: you know, not as clear as before. The one after contrast enhancement was ok.
Now I just realise that my DVD viewing software has 4 color control choices: Original, Vivid, Bright and Theater. My previous screencaps are done under the "Original" setting, so I did another one with "Bright" and I quite like the result, not as dark as original, and doesn't have a whiteness over it either. I think I'll use that setting to do future gifs if it has your approval.:)
Here's the comparison:
1. original screencap
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_000.jpg
2. done with DVD program color control setting of "Bright"
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_145.jpg
3. original screencap after contrast enhancement using paintshop.
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_000b.jpg


Ariel, the edit choice in imagemagician doesn't have color adjustment, only resize, rotate and frame. And how do you brighten up screencaps? Do you change color/tone also? Because yours looks a bit warmer.

wow, looks like Ariel, Blossom and I are gonna cover page 30 with tons of hooded fro pictures. :D

from deluby:
looks like Ariel, Blossom and I are gonna cover page 30 with tons of hooded fro pictures.

To which I get down on my knees, bow down low, and say, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you to Ariel, Blossom and deluby. I think I'll bookmark this hoodedFrodo page for posterity. ;)

And thanks again, deluby for the new SE gifs. Well, you have my approval for "Bright" from now on. :cool:

LOL, Luthiea, I'm sure hoping Elijah hears you! Thanks for the article, Luthiea. What Elijah says: " ... but then Frodo didn't have to fight. -- Right. So all Frodo's gonna do from now on is go berserk and point Sting at people's throats everytime he's pissed off? :p

Prim, lucky you - to get the chance to see theatre-sized FOTR Frodo again! We're getting LOTR hype here. Slowly, but it's building. Never saw any prehype for Harry Potter even though we got that simultaneously with the US, so I consider this a good sign for LOTR.

Say, Viola, do you fly direct non-stop to NZ each time? You're welcome to stopover in KL anytime. :)


-------------------------------

I'm really high and giddy and happy right now. Today, totally by chance, and at an incredibly good price, I bought a ticket to a charity screening of TTT on the 18th of December. I mean, wow. I'll be watching TTT on the 18th. Unless Prim, azalea (hello, btw! nice to see you posting with your sisters ... how'd you become a Baggins while the other two are Tooks? :confused: ) or estella rose see it on that day too, or if one of you UK or US folk see a pre-screening, I'll finally be seeing something before most everyone in the Faculty. I'm not saying that to be competitive ... I'm just trying to catch up with the fact that I finally won't be left behind to scrap for spoilers!

Also, yesterday, my DVD arrived. Took two whole weeks to get here - now that I have it the waiting didn't feel that bad. :p I watched all the new Frodo scenes. I watched the whole movie with the cast commentary. I watched the specials on filming. I don't think I've ever stayed up that late even when I had to study for an exam that my life totally depended on!

Since I was already spoiled I knew which scenes to really look out for:


** SE DVD SPOILERS **



- hooded Frodo is my favourite of all favourite Frodos from now till, well, the next time I see a Frodo at full angst. ;) All those still pics don't do him justice here. I absolutely love that this scene has been added back in, but I could also see why it'd been left out. It is a redundant scene. Yes, it is very, very, very nice that someone would remember that Frodo's still recovering from a shoulder wound, and I think it's very telling that Frodo doesn't just answer, "It's fine" but that's about all that's 'new' about it. As for the information about 'evil being drawn to Frodo', it's handy, sure, but one of the things I liked to do when I watched the movie with newbies was to point out to them how baddies were always automatically drawn to Frodo, and the newbies would go, 'oh, yeah, that's right ... ' as though that were something they would have been able to figure out too, if I'd just given them a chance. :D

- Frodo watching the elves leave for the Grey Havens ... jaw-dropping, heart-stopping, breath-taking sight. ehem. enough said. ;)

- there's an interesting change in context in the conversation between Gandalf and Frodo in Moria now that the line about Smeagol is there. So Frodo's "It's a pity Bilbo didn't kill him when he had the chance!" follows Gandalf saying that Smeagol is mad.

- Bilbo and Frodo's conversation during the party: okay, I was spoiled, but I didn't know that was how the conversation went. Aww.

- I like the beach scene

- during the cast commentary Billy Boyd remarks, "Nice reaction" (paraphrased) when we see Frodo scream after being stabbed. Elijah answers quietly, "Thanks". :)

- I heard Ian McKellen's remark about Sam & Frodo holding hands and the thought that crossed my mind was that he wasn't commenting on something that wasn't in the script (besides it's probably too small a thing to be scripted in), but on something he's concerned about: maybe he thought that Elijah and Sean wouldn't hold hands because that's not something heterosexual guys do.

- Sean Bean's a really nice guy. How'd a nice guy like that end up playing baddies in Hollywood movies? :)

- that bit where Sean Astin talks about how Elijah gets to work with all the different actors and reaches different emotional levels, and Billy Boyd pipes in about how each performance is also technically different (again, paraphrased), and there's the brief pause before Elijah responds about how happy he was too with the opportunity to be able to work with all those people, how it was a treat for him. I thought it was very sweet that he would compliment the others in turn.

- from Blossom:
Did you all like the moment - I think it's either in 'A day in the life of a hobbit' or 'Cameras in Middle-Earth' on disc four - where they're winding up for the day after filming in the cornfield, and Elijah says something like, ' The birthday boys are going to the 'Alcove' (I think) tonight, so if anyone wants to come, it would be nice to see you there.' (or words to that effect). One of the other hobbits (Billy or Dom) cries 'The drinks are on Elijah!' and the three of them hug. I tried to do a cap of that but they're all laughing and jumping around so much I couldn't catch a clear picture. It's a lovely moment.

Oh, it is! I replayed that a couple of times, even though I think it was already 2.30 am by then. :rolleyes: It's PJ who cries out that the drinks are on Elijah. They were filming Hobbiton scenes in January ... it was probably Elijah's birthday. :)

- and last, last thing I'll blab about ... geek that I am, I've spent months trying to figure out which shots were CG and which scale trick was done when. Even from the first viewing I'd been able to spot that the fellowship in Moria were CGI in wideshots -- there's something jerky in the way they run. Same jerkiness spotted in Lothlorien, while they're climbing the stairs. But I never knew the fellowship running across the bridge was CGI. I have deep, deep respect for these guys. Can't wait to listen to more of the technical stuff and production commentaries.


** END SPOILERS **

---------



Just one more thing. :p From the Always & Forever site, excerpts from Arena magazine, January 2003 issue.


"I'm much more recognisable now. It's every time I go out. But I don't change my life to avoid it. It's all positive."
And does he appreciate one aspect of fame more than the other?
"You get fans of the book, you get school girls, people in their 30s and 40s". He laughs, but entirely without ego says - "Attention from women is never ever a bad thing, it's been interesting."
Commenting on the tightness of the Wood family (Elijah still lives with his mum):
"I'm away for such long periods, it's great to come home. I've been thinking I should go on vacation more, but being on vacation for me is being at the house.

Congratulations to ainon on finally getting to see the SE DVD! :)

May I also express my thanks and my warm admiration for all ladies present who have come up with that perfectly acceptable and very research-oriented reason for posting so many swoonable pictures: It's all done in order to demonstrate photo enhancement, improvements in quality, colour and lightning. Long may your research and discussion on this particular topic continue! :)

I still hold the one Ariel posted; angsty muddy Lorien Fro as my absolute favourite. :cool:

Re: that quote from Arena magazine -- Could he get any sweeter and down-to-earth? I'd better hurry back over to Hobmom's thread before I say something embarrassing like I just wanna hug the stuffing out of him...

Is this magazine available in the US? I'm not familiar with it. And is it out now? I don't often buy magazines, but I feel overwhelmingly compelled to today...

About the dark screencaps: I've been collecting them and lightening them myself with GIMP, which is a Linux-based graphics software. It has a "Normalize" function, which lightens the caps just about perfectly, and keeps the contrast intact. Wish I could post one to show you! It doesn't always work, but it made hooded Fro even more beautiful (if you can imagine that!).

And I, too, am astonished that the figures on the bridge were CGI. I never even questioned that they might not be the actual actors! What amazing technology! And did anyone catch in the commentary (somewhere) that the technology is growing so fast that they were able to do things that they hadn't planned on because the technology was developed, fortuitously, just as they needed it? And that by the time they're working on ROTK, there will probably be things that they'll be able to do that couldn't have been done as recently as FOTR. It's just astounding how fast this stuff moves.

Oh, dear colleagues: I am in awe of you all. I have been reading your prose and enjoying your pictures without having the time to reflect or compose anything in response. Thank you for being so generous with your thoughts.

I have seen the SE DVD now, although I haven't seen everything on it. I was able to share listening to the Cast Commentary with Goldie: what a gas!

But, dear friends, I hope this little tidbit will be of interest to Midwestern/Chicago area faculty members: The Chicago Tribune is hosting an advance screening on the morning of Monday, December 2, for which they intend to hold a drawing for tickets. This is from today's print version of the Tribune (I haven't found it on their website.)

"For your chance to win, simply send an email with your name, address, city, state, zip code and phone number to: tickets@hnow.com. Winners will be chosen at random to win a pass (admit two) to attend a special advance screening of The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers on Monday morning, December 2, 2002. Entries must be received by Monday, November 25, 2002 at 10:00 a.m. One entry per person. Winners will be notified by phone. "

Anyone in the vicinity? GO FOR IT!

Before work, I'd written a long, rambling post about the screencap editing, but couldn't get it to post, so I'll take the opportunity to shrink it a bit ;) . The main thing I was saying was that you just have to play around with whatever software you have and see what it can/can't do. I've learned this from my desktop publishing, where I use one of a half-dozen different programs depending on what type of document I'm creating. One's best for business cards, one's best for calendars, etc... Most of them can be used for all types of documents, but some are just better for specific things.

The LotR screencaps are the first time I've tried to do much with photos, so I'm still low on the learning curve for them, but each screencap I post has already been through two programs and sometimes three (the screencaps turned into avatars have all been processed through three programs--it's hard to get those little buggers to come out clear, especially the ones that show more than just Frodo's head).

I also have a hard time seeing dark scenes, so to start with I have my DVD program at a brighter setting (the program has a whole range of brightness, just as most do for volume, and I have it set up into the highest fourth). The other two progams I use the most (for different things) are Microsoft Photo Editor and Sierra Photo Expert (I don't have Photoshop). In my earlier post, I went through all the details of what I do with each one, but since everyone's got different programs I'll leave that out--I've been playing around with the functions since August and am still finding new ways to use them.

So here's one more hooded fro moment (I chose this one because I think it's a bit different from the others that have been posted--it's from the arrival at the walls of Moria). The first one is just as it came from the DVD. The second one has been through only the "underexposed" function of Photo Expert (a nice option, as it brightens the pic differently in different parts, so seems a bit more natural than a straight "brighten" function). The third has been messed with more, using brightness, contrast, and a wee bit of color correction. This third one has really been messed with more than I would usually do with a screencap.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap10110.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap101100.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap1011000.jpg

Something I've noticed with the new DVD--and which I'm chalking up to the better visual quality--is that my not-exactly-top-of-the-line :rolleyes: computer seems to translate the pics into areas of color that aren't quite as distinct as in photos. I've decided to look at this as an advantage instead of a problem, because IMHO they come out looking a little like paintings. I noticed this effect especially in the following two "hiding from the SBs" shots, which I thought actually looked pretty good as paintings :p .

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap10300.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap10310.jpg

BTW, I think I have the vertical stretch problem fixed, and with all the expert opinions here I'd really appreciate knowing if others think the caps now look too stretched, too squeezed, or "just right." Sometimes after I spend awhile looking at a pic, it looks "right" to me even when it isn't.

Ainon...I sooo agree with you! The first time I saw a pic of Hooded Frodo..(I think Ariel found one several months ago)...my heart simply stopped.

He looks so much like Book Fro there to me. Wow.

Many thanks for all the pics, ladies! And tg..that Bilbo & Frodo shot....that is just...cruel. ;)

(I like the brightened pics, too)

Ainon: that quote!

"Attention from women is never ever a bad thing, it's been interesting."

er....all....I can say is....wow... um...wow. :o :D

wow. :p

Hello Azalea!!
nice to hear from you (sis) - and haven't you worked out yet that we have a very *flexible* approach to keeping on topic?

all comments welcome :D

ainon -thanks for the offer of brief stop in KL. Truth be said, I usually go thru LA and keep going. Annual leave is so precious, and family important that I try to spend as much time as possible there....more so at the moment with mum being sick. However, in the future, who knows?? :D
Azalea -re Aragorn throwing Fodo around. Yes it is not quite the book but it didn't really bother me. I suppose I'd always assumed that as Aragorn was "Strider" he, as a ranger, was sleeping rough, being amongst rough types, and with Frodo was trying to make a point -be aware of the significance of what you carry and be more careful (and fear makes you careful!)

However, I did recall seeing somewhere that Frodo is described as having a severe case of vertigo bec he falls over so often :eek:

Prim -I can't decide whether to trout you, or threaten you with multiple viewings of the SE DVD!!! Boy, LOTR had better still be on the large screen when I get there in a week, and we are going, chickenpox or no chickenpox :eek: :k


oh, and I like the fact that EW likens going home to a holiday (wise man) :cool:
viola

..that Bilbo & Frodo shot....
One of the little surprise gifts that pop up once in awhile while doing screencaps--bits that evidently go by so fast I don't consciously notice them. I wanted to get some pics from that scene, so was getting ready to shift into frame-by-frame mode, hit the pause button and... Whoa! Where did that come from? The second followed immediately and I liked it even more, so ended up with them both :) .

Originally posted by azalea baggins
I have a problem( Prim/Viola don't start with me!).;) Since Jan this year when I first viewed LOTR, the scene where Strider flings Frodo into the room in Bree seemed unnecessarily violent and out of character with Strider/Aragorn in the book. Again, in the scene post Gandalfs plummet into the depths of KD, Aragorn seems rather callous in demanding that Legolas and Boromir get the Hobbits 'up and going'. YES-yes-yes, I know the Orc risk but really, Frodo is crying and he looks so...desperate! In the book he shows significantly more compassion by stating:

"We must do without hope...at least we may yet be avenged. Let us gird ourselves and weep no more! Come! We have a long road, and much to do".

I have always felt Aragorn to be strong, resolute, self contained but compassionate. The Bree scene shows a lack of self restraint and to me it just doesn't fit with the character.
IMHO, he's not out-of-control in Bree, but very purposely choosing to shake Frodo up a bit to get him to realize the seriousness of the situation. If he were really acting out of uncontrolled anger, I think the rest of the scene would play out differently. Whether he should have decided to shake him up that badly is another question--which I don't have an answer for.

I know I've posted my thoughts about Aragorn post-Moria, but it was probably one or two websites ago :( . IMHO, it's an extremely important moment, and Aragorn seems to realize that if he's going to take leadership of the group he has to do it then. It's a bit risky, because Boromir might not have backed down, but if they'd waited until Boromir was ready to leave, Aragorn's leadership would have been in question and the hobbits, especially, could have felt as if they'd been set adrift. (And, then there are those orcs.)

And, although I can rationalize the grin at seeing Lorien, I wish it weren't there. The way I read it (and would even more if I didn't know the book) is that he knows he's managed to lead the Fellowship to a place of safety. But I do think the facial expression is a bit off.

But ( and don't hit me) he does fall over a lot in the movie doesn't he?!;) :D;)
Oh, you won't get hit for that--we've talked about it quite a bit this year! The important thing is that every time (almost every time?) he falls down/over, it's directly caused by the Ring. Hey, it even happens to Gimli--when he hits the Ring with his ax. Quite a powerful piece of jewelry there :p . And even in the instances where it might not be obviously due to the Ring, I'm sure we can come up with an explanation of how that's actually the case ;) .

The important thing is that every time (almost every time?) he falls down/over, it's directly caused by the Ring.

tg: you are right about the falling down discussion taking place on a messageboard that has fallen into shadow...a pity we don't have all that wonderful analysis to return to. Now that we have the Extended Edition to refer to, however, we may need to return to that particular research question though! :p

For example, now we can see Frodo successfully running around the table that Merry and Pippin are dancing on without falling; we see him carrying is it four? mugs of some brew or other without a spill; we see him climb a tree without falling out of it; as well as the funky chicken dance at the Party Scene. IIRC the first time he hits the ground is when he and Gandalf hear something outside of Bagend--and that is immediately after he puts the Ring in his pocket. Coincidence? I think NOT!! ;)

And how many times will we see him fall in TTT? :(

Originally posted by Vita S-B
IIRC the first time he hits the ground is when he and Gandalf hear something outside of Bagend--and that is immediately after he puts the Ring in his pocket. Coincidence? I think NOT!! ;)

Ah, yes, even more significant than I was originally thinking, as I'd forgotten that in the movie the Ring is hidden away in a chest instead of being in Frodo's pocket all the time as it is in the book. And, of course, that first dropping to the floor is on purpose--and actually quite adroit. ;) When this topic comes up I usually point to the scene where Frodo backs away from Aragorn at Amon Hen--I still hold my breath every time he does that because it'd be so easy for him to fall down or topple over backwards, and he doesn't :cool: !! Speaking as an innate klutz myself, I can tell you that a true klutz could not have played that scene without going straight over the drop-off behind him. Ergo, the klutziness has to be extrinsic, and the outside force most likely to be causing it is the Ring ;) :p .

Hi there!

I'm so pleased - I got my TT tickets for opening night!!! Ya beauty! :k I thought I'd be too late and they'd have been snapped up already (always worrying :rolleyes: ) but then maybe there's not so many Tolkienites in my neck of the woods! :D

Glad you finally got your DVD, ainon! Bet the wait was worth it!

Does anyone know if CoE has been having problems? I've not been able to get in there for 2 days?

About Frodo falling down - the Sunday Express article says that Frodo falls down, on average every 10 minutes! :eek: :D

Check out these piccies, from Arena Magazine -

http://always.ejwsites.net/images/arena01.jpg

http://always.ejwsites.net/images/arena02.jpg

Mmmm....Veeerrryy nice.

Later,

x

I wonder if Ew ever got heartily sick of all the falls? I'm presuming here he had to do them repeatedly until they were just right?

That fall on Caradhras must have been a wet, clammy bit of misery, especially in those rubber feet. Look at his face in that scene: he does look cold to me.

tg -if you persist with your latest avatar, some Faculty members will never get past your posts! ;)

Ainon: I doubt very much I'll see TTT on opening day. Too crowded. Azalea and Viola probably will though so you three may well be the first Facultiers to do so!!! :)

TTT SPOILERS (sort of)

Hey, everybody, the best song yet from TTT soundtrack: Gollum's song--it made the hairs stand up on my arms. Very mournful and eerie. You can listen to it here.

http://www.kulichki.com/tolkien/henneth-annun/clips/TTTsound/

Here are the lyrics:

Where once was light now darkness falls.
Where once was love, love is no more.
Don’t say goodbye.
Don’t say I didn’t try.
These tears we cry are falling rain
For all the lies you told us, the hurt, the blame.
And we will wait to be so alone.
We are lost, we can never go home.

So in the end I’ll be what I will be.
No loyal friend was ever there for me.
Now we say goodbye
We say you didn’t try.
These tears you cry have come too late
Take back the lies, the hurt, the blame.
And you will wait when you face the end alone.
You are lost, you can never go home.
You are lost, you can never go home.

"You are lost, you can never go home." Oooooohhhhh!!!!! Poor Frodo. :( Let me know what you think.

Originally posted by tgshaw
BTW, I think I have the vertical stretch problem fixed, and with all the expert opinions here I'd really appreciate knowing if others think the caps now look too stretched, too squeezed, or "just right." Sometimes after I spend awhile looking at a pic, it looks "right" to me even when it isn't.
I think they're a bit squeezed. :confused:
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap10110.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_290.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cap10310.jpg
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/PDVD_293.jpg

But like you said, I kinda get used to the squeezed ones after I stare at them for a while. :p They make frodo more, um, hobbity? :p
Would you mind if I ask what DVD program you use? There might be a "keep aspect ratio" setting you could select so that those screencaps won't be stretched or squeezed.

tg, thanks for that link for Gollums Song! I'd listened to that yesterday after seeing it at TORN, but didn't want to post it cos it wasn't on topic :( The song is very eerie, isn't it? The girl sounds rather like Bjork, a creepy but childlike voice.

Oooo! Thank you, Louise! I finally got it to play after having my PC freak out a bit... what an absolutely chilling thing.... I love it!

My bet is that that will be the thing that plays at the end credits - like Enya's piece did during the last film. Kind of to give the audience a feel for what Frodo is facing next - very much like Enya's song! I love dark... dark and angst is very good...

Damn, isn't it December yet?!?!?

Ariel (Who makes absolutely no appologies for being a complete angst hound....)

Dear Faculty members,

I'm off for two weeks in southern Middle-Earth (aka New Zealand's South Island) so won't be posting much until I return. I'll miss you, and I wish you could all come along for a great time!

Cadmo and Viola, it'll be strange knowing you're so close yet so far away. I'll be thinking of you!

Hugs and happy analyzing! ;) :D

Goldie

Hi Goldie - hope you enjoy your trip, is it for business or pleasure, may I ask?! :D I'm sure you'll have a good time anyway. My friend and I are hoping to go to NZ in the next few years so you can make me all jealous when you return! :)

Edit - just saw your post tg! Do you know what it is - correct me if I'm wrong but didn't you have that Frodo avatar that Louise has got, a while ago?! Maybe at Imladris? I keep seeing it (I often just look at the avatars and mentally match them with the person ie Vita/PW with her pop-eyed EW, Cadmo/Prim and her leaf) when I'm scrolling down and thinking it's you! Sorry! :D So thank you Louise for the Gollum's Song link! :D My head's been in the shed the past few days, what with college and work and trying to book concert tickets today, I've not known whether I'm coming or going! :p

Lutheia--it was Louise who posted the Gollum song; not quite sure how my "name" got linked to it. :)

Goldie--Have a great time!

------------

Well, regarding the "stretch" vs. "squeeze" problem, I'm probably taking up too much space here on it, and should just let other people do the screencaps, but the perfectionist in my would like to get it right. And rather than PM Deluby or others about it, I would like to post the pics here, to take advantage of the gathered expertise on just what Frolijah looks like--hopefully, I'll just have to do it this once :o .

As I understand it, I'm really trying to override the set aspect ratio of the program I use (WinDVD) because, as Ariel has pointed out a few times, it does vertically stretch the picture enough to be quite noticeable. I read up on aspect ratios and did a bit of math, and came up with the proportion I've been using with the stuff from the new DVD. It seemed like a pretty severe proportion change, but it's what the numbers said, so that's what I've been using. It's definitely closer to reality than the original "stretched" version. With Deluby's opinion that it might be a bit too squeezed, I decided to let my eyeballs give it a try (instead of the math).

So here's a gallery of frightened Frodos facing the WiKi. In order to keep them "in synch" I kept them all full-width, which I don't ususally do anymore because of the bandwidth limitations. Since it's basically the same pic over and over, I'll take them down within a few days so hopefully they won't be too much of a drain. The "gold standard" is the first one, which I copied directly from the original preview on the official website about a year-and-a-half ago--before I ever heard of screencaps. The other three are one of my screencaps at three different proportions: the way it came out initially from WinDVD, the "mathematical" correction, and the "eyeball" correction. So, the question becomes, which of the three is closest to the top one, copied directly from the preview? Or are they all pieces of junk and I should just take up knitting :o ?

Oh, and don't go by the height of the picture, just by what Frodo looks like.

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/preview110.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap532-100.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap532-751.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap532-85.jpg

Originally posted by tgshaw
So here's a gallery of frightened Frodos facing the WiKi. In order to keep them "in synch" I kept them all full-width, which I don't ususally do anymore because of the bandwidth limitations. Since it's basically the same pic over and over, I'll take them down within a few days so hopefully they won't be too much of a drain. The "gold standard" is the first one, which I copied directly from the original preview on the official website about a year-and-a-half ago--before I ever heard of screencaps. The other three are one of my screencaps at three different proportions: the way it came out initially from WinDVD, the "mathematical" correction, and the "eyeball" correction. So, the question becomes, which of the three is closest to the top one, copied directly from the preview? Or are they all pieces of junk and I should just take up knitting :o ?


Golly, hon. That's a tough one.

The first one of yours is definitely squished vertically. I think maybe the "mathematical" one goes too far the other direction, making Frodo look too thick (very hobbity, but not very Elijah). So I'd have to say that the "eyeball" one comes closest. Not the most scientific, perhaps, but it's the one that seems the most accurate.

Definitely the third tg. That looks pretty damn close to me tho perhaps a smidgeon on the thin side. But it has the right "Fro" feel to it.
But hey- I'm not going near the maths/proportion thing again: remember the beauty "analysis" at Imladris??? :rolleyes: Been there: done that , relying on instinct from now on. (I thought my children just might report me to social welfare for peering at the computer screen with a ruler and a calculator in my hand after I gave up on printing pics out as too slow and costly. *snarf* Thank god they don't have cameras. The things EW/Fro makes me do!!!).

nb does anyone know if Moggy's getting really pressed for bandwith? I'm getting a little worried the site could get a bit strained: its growing really fast.:eek: :rolleyes:

edit: happy trails Goldie!!! Hope you have a good time. Bummer: wrong island (maybe I should move down there but I'm not a snow fan at all...) Bring a warm coat: we keep having southerlies. Beuatifully crisp, but...shiver.

edit 2: just read Moggy's boss speaks thread and am thusly answering my own question!!!Can't possibly translate the details (too tech; though Hallah's was clear enough that for about a second I thought I actually did understand it :rolleyes: ) but there are bandwidth probs and some hints at reducing them on there. Hallah's sticky thread says some of the same stuff.
Hey , now I actually sort of know what bandwidth actually is!!! I'm not too old to learn.

Speaking about bandwidth, sites et al, where's our no. 1 EW fan Elvellon???:(

Originally posted by Cadmo
nb does anyone know if Moggy's getting really pressed for bandwith? I'm getting a little worried the site could get a bit strained: its growing really fast.:eek: :rolleyes:

There's a discussion of this starting with (I think) 5 Nov. in "The Boss Speaks"--about halfway down page 10. Seems Moggy is determined to keep things going, but the bandwidth is definitely a concern. He said (at the top of page 11) that the site had gone over the limit last month and he was charged an extra $50, but that the PayPal donations had been enough to cover it. He and the mods are just asking people to try to be a bit careful (a guideline they gave was that if you have to scroll across to see an entire pic, it would be better to resize it).

------------------------

Thanks for the opinions on the screencaps. They've already given me something to go on. :)

Tg, I think the third one looks right. Man, you did a lot of work on those screencaps, resizing and all. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/notworthy.gif

I have a copy of WinDVD, so I'm gonna install that and try to see if there's anyway to solve that problem.
RE bandwidth: I think I deserve some serious trouting for posting those 800k+ gifs. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/trout.gifhttp://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/trout.gifhttp://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/trout.gif So I'll be only text linking gifs from now on. Sorry mods. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/sorry.gif


***edit***
I was watching "Digital Grading" featurrette on Disc 4 last night and it suddenly occured to me that when we were trying to brighten up those screencaps, we were actually trying to get them back to the "ungraded version". http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/magnify.gif

Oh, and The Faculty is on Sci-Fi right now.



*****edit again*****
Tg, I played with WinDVD for a while but couldn't find a way to have it capture with original aspect ratio. :( So without changing DVD program, the only way to get caps with correct ratio is to resize them afterwards. The direct screencaps are 720x480(with black bars at the top and bottom), resize them to 720x405(1.7778:1) and you'll get the normal widescreen aspect ratio. Hope that helps. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/blush3.gif
It's official now, I don't like WinDVD. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/bleh.gif :p
Oh, and The Faculty is over. :rolleyes: :p

I'm not very fond of WinDVD either... I am pretty happy with Cyberlink Power DVD - and it came free with my new DVD - it does nice captures and there is no problem with aspect ratio.

Here are some samples - these are just slightly cropped and toned - even that simple act cuts the size of these images down from 1500 kb to something more manageable - like 40 something...

http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/Frolookinggood000.jpg

I haven't seen screen caps of this scene very much - but it gave me some good angles to use for artwork so I took some....

This one is a painting almost in and of itself!
http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/Frolookinggood002.jpg

Ariel

Originally posted by deluby
I was watching "Digital Grading" featurrette on Disc 4 last night and it suddenly occured to me that when we were trying to brighten up those screencaps, we were actually trying to get them back to the "ungraded version".
I've found that especially true when trying to "undo" some of the coloring to make it look more "natural."

resize them to 720x405(1.7778:1) and you'll get the normal widescreen aspect ratio. Hope that helps.
Aha--version #3 is 85% (1.1764:1). Not too far off :) -- thanks for the confirmation. It takes only a couple of seconds to actually do the resizing--the trick is knowing what ratio to use.

WinDVD is all I've got (except for that horrid InterActual that came with the DVDs). It's the program that came installed on my computer (I don't have a separate DVD player--just the computer drive). But there are enough people here who can take screencaps that I certainly don't mind just sitting back and looking at everyone else's prettier pictures :p .

------------------
The following don't have to be pretty (thank goodness :p ). We haven't had a froshadowing for awhile, but when I lightened up "Sam and I must get to Bree," I was surprised to see a glimpse of Mikey:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/istrm0200.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/cap1054-830.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/istrm0210.jpg

TTT is the cover story for Time magazine Dec. 2, and they're calling it "dazzling". Can't wait to read the review. No real spoilers but a good article. And the cover is sort of a rearrangement of the poster with our little Hobbit in the center (Thank goodness. For a while I was afraid they were forgetting about him):

http://www.time.com/time/

tg, that has to be the funniest Froshadowing I've seen! Abject fear on the face of Elijah, but for two totally different reasons! ;)

:D

Tg, your 'eyeball' screencap is definitely working for me - much better than the mathmatical one, which is too squashed.

Ariel, I have Cyberlink Power DVD too, and it's really easy to use (even for technically challenged brains like mine!). Thanks for those two lovely pics. I couldn't work out how to lighten up my dark caps when I tried in Corel, but from what you say, deluby, sounds like I should be able to alter the tone when I'm actually doing the screen captures. Did I understand that correctly? I'll try it anyway.

Ainon, nice to hear you finally got the SE DVD at last. Sounds like you're enjoying it.

Another thing that made me smile when I noticed it on watching the extended version again yesterday - I lingered over the credits, and came across four very familiar names in the very long Lord of the Rings fan club members list. In alphabetical order: Sean Astin; Billy Boyd; Dominic Monoghan; Elijah Wood. I looked for the other members of the fellowship, but no - it's just our four hobbit boys there. They're in the fan club! :)

Louise, thanks for the link to that Time magazine article. Interesting to note the quote from PJ - that 'TTT departs most from Tolkien's work.' Everytime I think, 'it will be OK. PJ will give us what we want.' - some little snippet like that crops up to start me worrying again. I mean, I want to see Treebeard, Gandalf the White, Theoden. I want to see Helms Deep, Eomer, the developing friendship between Legolas and Gimli, Aragorn fighting for his birthright - but not at the expense of Frodo and Sam. For me the most important part of this story is Frodo's personal quest - how his encounters with Gollum and Faramir will play out, how important Sam's presence becomes as Frodo's physical and mental well-being deteriorate - and I would hate for that to be overshadowed for the sake of big set-piece battle scenes. Ooooh , I'm off again... I will trust PJ... I will trust PJ. Fran and Phillipa will know what we want - won't they? I guess we'll know soon enough!

Wow... thanks for the links guys!

I am grinning ear to ear today. Not only did I recieve the nicest compliment of my life from another fanfic writer but I also read (in an YM article of all places! :rolleyes: ) that EW likes Changing Rooms!!! I love that boy! What taste! Wonder if he likes Ground Force too? *Happy Sigh* Can I swoon for someone else here? I mean, I would happily be Alan Titchmarsh's love slave, if he would have me... Yes, go ahead, you may laugh if you wish...

I have also been listening to the snippets of the new soundtrack that are available and have decided I LOVE Gollum's song... I mean, it has been in my head all day giving me warm fuzzy, dark angsty thoughts! Samwise the Brave is darling too! Oh, I am getting so psyched up for this movie!!!!

OK... I will quit bouncing now...

Ariel

Originally posted by Louise
TTT is the cover story for Time magazine Dec. 2, and they're calling it "dazzling". Can't wait to read the review. No real spoilers but a good article. And the cover is sort of a rearrangement of the poster with our little Hobbit in the center (Thank goodness. For a while I was afraid they were forgetting about him):
Thanks for the link--and the heads-up. That's one "cover of Time" I'll definitely want to have in hard copy. Not a very encouraging article for those of us who prefer "dancing hobbits" to battles and computerized special effects, but not unexpected--PJ's said all along TTT will depart from the book more than the other two movies.

But just the fact that we're talking about the cover of Time is amazing--that's a lifetime ambition for a lot of politicians and other "world movers," and there's EJW smack in the middle at age 21. Not too shabby. Of course, in my heart he's standing in there for Frodo Baggins, who's probably changed the world, and individual lives, for the better more than most politicians--and somehow I don't think Elijah would argue that point.

Did you see THIS!?!?

http://a740.g.akamai.net/f/740/606/1d/image.pathfinder.com/time/images/covers/1101021202_120.jpg

**edit**
oops, Louise already posted the link.

Has anyone seen the LOTR Christmas cards? I liked the one on the far right and second from the left best. The latter's "verse" is just adorable. If they had these last year, I missed them somehow, so maybe you did too. Enjoy :)

http://www.lordoftherings.net/index_202d_le_down_ecar.html

Some TTT pictures from the UK magazine Starburst. (from A&F)

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/frodoxsam56.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/frodo163.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/frodo162.jpg
That last one is really.......off to the Harem ;)


Also, two interviews with EW and Orli from YM:
http://www.ym.com/stars/nov1902.jsp two pictures from that site, I enlarged them a little bit.
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/ym1b.jpg http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/ym2b.jpg

I did that with the Times cover pic as well. Hope we'll have a scan of that cover soon.
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/timesb.jpg
Is it just me or are those publicity shots really going with the religious angle thing? That shot of Frodo is a very striking image.


BLOSSOM---I use Cyberlink PowerDVD as well. I used version3.0 before but I don't remember it having color setting choices, but V4.0 does, that what i'm using right now.
RE: LOTR cast in fan club credits.
I read through the list looking for LOTR cast and crew names too, and a lot of them are in there, not just the 4 hobbit boys. I can't remember them all at the moment but Sir Ian is definetely in the credits, and I think Orli, Viggo and his son Harry as well, but no John Rhys-Davis.

Has anyone been able to make out the writing on the right on the Time cover? I think the first line is "Good Lord!" How original. :rolleyes: And is that Gollum in the bottom center, or an orc? I hope this is out this week and not next.

Deluby - thanks for those new pics and the interviews! :)

Yep, I like the Frodo-praying (to Eru?! :) ) image on the cover.

I still keep thinking that Louise is tg, with that avatar! Duh! Tg, did you see my explanation?! How silly I am! :D

I know, Ariel - Changing Rooms! Laurence Llewlynn-Bowen (Ian McK's boyf lookalike!). It's strange that EW is into really geeky, eclectic stuff, like his musical and film tastes but he also has his cheesy-mainstream moments too! :)

Like the pics you posted - esp the ear picture - I love Frodo's pointy ears, so cute! :D

I've not heard the Samwise the Brave track yet, I've only heard Gollum's Song. Will try to listen to StB, I'd been having problems with realplayer for ages but managed to fix it in my desperation to listen to the gorgeous 'Elbereth' from the SE DVD!

Are any of you members of the LOTR fan club, btw?

Bye for now,

L x

Originally posted by Luthiea
Are any of you members of the LOTR fan club, btw?


Yup! And I'm in there too! So is Ezzie and Rosie and a couple of other haremites I know! It is WAY cool (and why not?)

:D

Ariel

I'm a regular member of the LOTR fan club, hesitated for a second and missed the Charter member opportunity. :( I had a tiny hope that maybe by chance someone in the charter member list would share a same name as mine, but no such luck. http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/sniff.gif http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/cry.gif Silly, I know. :rolleyes:


Anyway, if anyone missed the 4 hobbit boys and orli+liv on TRL last year, you can d/l the complete video clips here: http://www.warofthering.net/downloads/miscfootage.shtml

Ariel - Alan Titchmarsh's love slave!!!:eek: (No, I'm not laughing.:) ) Actually, I have quite a soft spot for Alan myself - my hubby loves Ground Force. Fancy EW liking Changing Rooms. I wonder what he thinks of Lawrence.

deluby. I've just found out I can't alter the brightness with the Cyberpower DVD programme. But I was just having a play on the computer and have found a way to do it with something called PhotoImpression. Thanks for those new pics. LOVE that third one too!!!

I think we're going to see a really freaked-out Fro in TTT, after reading that interview with EW, when he says Frodo begins to lose trust and faith in those around him because of the effect of the ring. Oh poor Sam. POOR FRODO!!!

Sounds like it's going to be quite a departure from the book, but I dare say as long as there is plenty of Frodo included, we will all come to terms with that. Over this past year I have come to accept and understand the changes made to 'Fellowship', and overall think that PJ & co. were right to make those changes. I think there will be lots of scenes in TTT which are amalgamations of our favourite moments, condensed and refined to 'keep the flow' of the story going. I wonder what aspects of the film we will all be discussing here in a few weeks' time! As long as there's plenty of Frodo-centric material to talk about I'll be happy.

Going back to that magazine article - you'd think they would at least know how to spell Gollum's name (Golem indeed! :rolleyes: )

Who is this Lucy Liu woman EW has a crush on?

P.S. Hi Luthiea. How's things?

AHA, found another one on TIME website:
Made it a bit bigger as usual. hmmm, I really like blowing up pictures today. :rolleyes:
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/frodo165b.jpg


Blossom---Lucy Liu is one of the Charlie's Angels, not the TV show but the movie with Cameron Diaz and Drew Barrymore that came out a couple years ago, and the sequel is coming out next year I think, probably summer. I won't be surprised if a trailer of that is attached to TTT. And I don't know why I know this. :rolleyes:
She's also in the TV show 'Ally Mcbeal'. I'm kinda surprised that EW has a crush on her because I don't see much in her, but then again I never watched any episodes of 'Ally Mcbeal' so I really shouldn't comment on her.

Since I'm talking about TV, here's a TV alert:
If you have cable, "The Ice Storm" is on FX this Monday night 8pm PST and rerun at 12am Tuesday. Also 'Avalon' is on Bravo this Tuesday 2am PST and again at 4pm. Check your local listings.



Cover of UK mag Total Film:

http://img-www.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/5297.jpg

Read the scans here: http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1038186831


geez, I've been editing this post forever. :rolleyes: :p
Remember last week we were discussing what EW said about F&S relationship in UK Sunday paper and then we were wondering about Sir Ian's view on that issue? Here's an excerpt of his interview in Total Film: <snip>People read so many things into the stories. I mean, some people even think Samwise and Frodo have a close homosexual relationshop. But I don't see it. I think that's a little far off...

Just in relation to everybody's worries about TTT not being Frodo-centric enough. I'm pretty sure that PJ and co do understand that Frodo is the centre of the story. In the Directors and Writers commentary, PJ (I think) commented about why he made Frodo solve the riddle of the gates of Moria rather than Merry as it was in the book. He said that we hadn't heard from Frodo in a while and it was important for the audience to remember that he was the centre of the story.

I never had book vs movie concerns for FotR because I'd never read the books at the time. It sure will be a different experience for TTT. I imagine that whatever changes are made, we will get used to them eventually. I mean, most of you didn't like Arwen's flight to the Ford, but it didn't stop you loving the film. Does that make sense?

Welcome Azalea. Glad you finally joined us.

Quick post to thank everyone so much for the music, the screencaps, the pics, the articles, and I have this one teensy weensy screencap request. Well, okay, two. :)

Could someone please screencap the bit in the Mines of Moria, where we see Frodo reacting to Gandalf's news about how much the mithril vest is worth? I just love the look on his face there. And the fact that EW can show us exactly what Frodo's thinking without needing to say a word.

And also the little bit we see of Frodo and that precious 'one tear' :p in Lorien, during his scene with Galadriel. Please? Anybody? :)

Err, gimme time and I'll figure out some reason to justify these requests as part of the ongoing EW study. :o


Meanwhile, am I seeing things or are these two pics substantially different? The top one is a scan from BagEndInn. The bottom one is from Maggie's EW site. The latter looks like it's from a different angle. Looks far more angstier too.

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/tttpg28.jpg

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/scans06/scans53.jpg

Just dropping by with a quick heads up for UK Faculty members. SFX #99 (just out) has a whopping great Elijah Wood interview.

Hi, all! Just a quick thank you for all the links and pics and magazine information. There'll be so much to absorb these coming weeks!!! :)

(And I *particularly* loved that 3rd pic in Deluby's post above. Can you tell? :D )


And yet, in the middle of all this, I feel, I don't know......
I just don't feel as excited about TTT just now as I ought to be feeling. Maybe this is a good thing. Expectations CAN be set too high, I guess. But.... I wasn't expecting this to happen. Perhaps it's just a brief case of anticipation overload. (I *hope* so!)

Or perhaps it's subconscious worrying over a possibly endless battle at Helm's Deep. How many orcs will be killed in the dark and the rain, in how many ways, and how long will it all take??? I just can't muster very much enthusiasm for a lot of fighting stunts and CGI battle magic, however fantastically and innovatively done. That Time Magazine article worried me some. (Although I am happy about parts of the front cover, and sure would like to see a scanned and larger version. Is Frodo actually holding both hands as if in prayer??)

Suddenly I also worry more over how far they're going to take movie Fro away from book Frodo. Is he going to be all paranoid and mean and nasty to Sam, even in TTT? Today for some reason the "Trust PJ" mantra just isn't working.....

Maeg tip-toes out of the lounge, hoping she hasn't depressed everyone.......

Hi guys! Long time no see. I've not had much to say but have been lurking on a regular basis. Thanks for all the goodies everyone has been posting! The universe is certainly offering forth the Frodo/Elijah goodness these days. :)

I spent the last few days digitizing a bunch of appearances and news bits that I have collected up over the last year, and posted them on my website. There are several hundred megabytes of files there now, so I can only link to a few at a time from the site, but they are all uploaded to my server and I will be happy to send a link to the full list of clips if anyone is interested. Just email me (celeste@frodoandsam.net) and I'll sent it along. You can see a list of what's available here (http://frodoandsam.net/film/multimedia/video.html). The Elijah vidiots clip is great, and I also highly recommend the Monsignor Renard clips for any closet Dom fans like me. I'm also going to stay on top of this year's interviews and post the clips as soon as possible after they air - I'll keep ya'll updated.

Hard to believe it's only 10 days to the TT world premiere. So exciting! :D

Elve, it's so wonderful to see you here again!! :)

10 days?


Speculation related to Gollum's Song

Thank you so much for posting that link a couple of days back, Louise. I didn't get the chance to hear the song before just now. It made me shudder. So eerie, so dark, spooky, haunting..... and the singing and tune so very distinct and a welcome contrast to Enya's melodious (and a touch sappy?) end credit song last year.

I think this song reinforces the speculation that TTT is going to end with the Stairs of CU and Gollum's near-conversion. The song lyrics' point of view shifts between "I" - Smeagol's POV? and "We" - Gollum's POV?

Here is the song's text with some of my speculation and comments in bold:

Where once was light now darkness falls. Smeagol giving in to Gollum for good; the last "light" in him being extinguished? Or the literal darkness as they're about to enter Shelob's lair?
Where once was love, love is no more. Could this be Smeagol/Gollum's "love" for Dear Master?
Don’t say goodbye.
Don’t say I didn’t try. This is Smeagol's voice. Yes, he *did* try for the briefest of time, but he was too weak to fight the Ring.
These tears we cry are falling rain
For all the lies you told us, the hurt, the blame. I'm thinking of the various statements PJ has made that there will be "mind games" in the scenes with Gollum, Frodo and Sam, and that they have played up the psychological aspects. I'm also remembering that apparently Frodo is going to show much more paranoia and Ring-greed in the movie than in the book. Perhaps he really *does* lie to Gollum, or tell him half-truths, or accuse or blame him? Gollum thinks Sam is "nasty", we know that already......
And we will wait to be so alone.
We are lost, we can never go home. I know this is too early, but still; this quote from "Mount Doom" fits so well in here:" Lost lost. We're lost. And when Precious goes we'll die, yes, die in the dust." Anyway, with the "We" this is the voice of Gollum speaking; perhaps it's indicating that the Smeagol personality is now lost for good, and therefore he can never go "home"; - never go back to who he once was.

So in the end I’ll be what I will be. Why the "I" here? Is it Smeagol lamenting (or accepting :eek: ) what he has become?
No loyal friend was ever there for me. This is Gollum envying Frodo: Frodo has Sam while Smeagol (the twisted way he sees it) had noone. And Frodo is becoming like Gollum; - but he has someone who loves him and cares for him and so helps slow that fateful process of the Ring's corruption of his mind......
Now we say goodbye
We say you didn’t try.
These tears you cry have come too late
Take back the lies, the hurt, the blame. All these four lines are casting blame, they are accusing, and full of hurt. I wonder how much of this will be just Gollum's false justification to himself for what he's about to do or already has done, and how much actual real reason Frodo and Sam have given him to blame them for lies, to say they didn't try?
And you will wait when you face the end alone. The end; - Shelob.......
You are lost, you can never go home.
You are lost, you can never go home. Gollum and Shelob will see to that. *shudder*


*Shudders* once more....... I *really* liked this song, melody and text. It seems so much in line with what I'd like TTT to be. Perhaps I just should quit worrying.

Originally posted by Maeglian
And yet, in the middle of all this, I feel, I don't know......
I just don't feel as excited about TTT just now as I ought to be feeling. Maybe this is a good thing. Expectations CAN be set too high, I guess. But.... I wasn't expecting this to happen.
Maybe my expectations weren't high enough, but I always figured I'd be less excited about TTT than the other two films. In fact, I've been feeling as if I've had a bit of a vacation this past year after the 2-3 years (don't remember exactly when I heard about the project) of anxiety and excitement that led up to FotR.

Nothing can ever again be like sitting in that packed but suddenly-silent theater at 12:01 am last December 19 and seeing the words "The Lord of the Rings" come on screen in that perfectly-chosen gold script. Or like the relief that it wasn't ghastly or a financial failure (both of which were at least somewhat in doubt up til the end). Or like reading those first glorious reviews about our movie--heck, about our world, and how it was so well accepted. A once-in-a-lifetime experience that will never come again, all the more wonderful because it was a release from the anticipation and worry built up over the years before it.

And I'm expecting that after December 18, I'll have to get up a good head of steam to start worrying about RotK. As a Frodo-centric person, there's not a whole lot PJ could do to totally screw up TTT for me. If I were an Elf-centric person, I'd probably be fit to be tied! The one thing PJ could do that would actually upset me would be to have Frodo kill someone--like, say, during the battle at Osgiliath--but even that wouldn't be at the level of losing his stand at the ford. But RotK?? There's a heckuva lot of stuff in that one that's emotionally important--essential--to me, so I'm sure I'll be both more excited and more worried about that one!

PJ has said all along that TTT would go farther from the book than the other two, but I'll admit I didn't expect it to go quite as far as it seems to have done. I did expect it to be more about Men and huge battles and less about Hobbits and quiet perseverence. Even if PJ has said Frodo is the heart of the overall story, he also said in one of those recently-posted magazine articles that TTT is "all about Aragorn." So, I figure I'll let the Massive programmers and the people who like to read Tolkien in part because of his battle techniques, have their year. But if RotK doesn't gravitate around Frodo, I'll be v-e-r-y disappointed.

Elve-- :k -- you work so hard to capture all those goodies for us! Many, many thanks.

Edit: Just saw Maeg's last post. It's an encouraging sign if that's the song that will be played over the credits. I guess we don't know exactly what's going to happen in the movie with the Forbidden Pool, but the last part of the song reminds me of when Frodo has to lie to Gollum in order to save his life. Frodo is torn about it, and Gollum is absolutely correct to say that he was lied to. One of those moments Tolkien gives us that sets his world and his characters completely apart from the simplified battles between good and evil that we can get from some other authors. I read some years ago--don't remember which Tolkien commentator said it (Verlyn Flieger, maybe??) :o --that in Tolkien's work, the line dividing good from evil runs through the center of a person. That's where the battle takes place. IMHO, it took an author that understood that to create Gollum--and Boromir--and Saruman--and Frodo Baggins standing at the Cracks of Doom.

Geez, when I start saying things like that--especially outside the Green Dragon--it's time for me to shut up!! No beer to cry into here in the lounge--just that water cooler :D .

Elvellon !! welcome back! :) I was wondering if a work balrog got you and we would never hear from you again...
What is the Elijah vidiots clip?:confused:

re TTT- well I'm looking forward to Helm's Deep. I'm not normally a blood and guts girl (well, I wouldn't be would I with a name like Primrose :p , but I guess my alter ego Cadmo could be...) but I love the battle scenes in Tolkein. So darkly dramatic. And such an effective contrast in style and pace to the much more intimate Sam/Frodo scenes. So whatever happens I'll be happy.

Pure opinion follows:

I'll be very interested to see how EW and Jackson handle the endless scrambling around a bunch of rocks. Okay, so that's not how it is in the books but it could very well feel like that in the movie if its not handled right. Hopefully the "scrambling" shots will be interspersed with lots of intimate shots as they worry about the route, the Ring, Gollum etc
The potential for boredom in TTT's Sam and Frodo scenes, from a visual movie perspective is huge. Perhaps this is why the few Frodo shots that have already been released in clips and stills show events from the books have been exaggerated or heightened. eg EW/Frodo toppling head first into the marsh instead of just getting his hands and arms slimed; and the very dramatic shot of Frodo going for Gollum (?) with Sting, Frodo showing Faramir the Ring and appearing to battle himself instead of just talking about it vaguely.
To keep theFro/Sam scenes, which involve a fair amount of internal drama on a par visually and dramatically with what is happening to Merry and Pip (initially slow moving but with the novelty of ents and then the very dramatic attack on Isengard) and at Helm's Deep the few crisis moments of Sam Frodo and Gollum will have to be fully developed and exploited.
Jackson cannot let the audience lose its connection with Frodo and Sam. It was carefully built up in FoTR and a certain amount of audience identification/sympathy at least has to be maintained; even if we do switch our sympathy ultimately from Frodo to Sam. This is because in RoTK the focus switches back to them. Not only do they fulfill the quest but they get inside Mordor, the horrors of which have been repeatedly hinted at in the earlier books. Shelob, the Tower of CU, the orc march and the struggle on Mount Doom are all very dramatic. And of course, Mt Doom is the climax.
And ( and yes here I am at last coming to my main point ;) ) this is all good. It means that even if , and I stress if, there is relatively little Fro/Sam action compared to the rest of the movie in TTT, what there is should be fascinating watching as Jackson milks the scenes for every thing they are worth. Emotional drama, angst and lots of fullface close ups. Plenty of room for EW (and Astin I hope though I've got a few doubts about his skills I admit) to display his skill at micro and major facial expressions and presumably extensive use of body language as he slowly sinks under the burden.
:cool:

Ainon: those pics have expression reversal. In the first Sam looks mnore worried than Fro; in the second it seems to me to be the other way around!

Prim.

edit: Moggy and Seggy are getting married!!! See Rivendell thread! :)

From tg
Geez, when I start saying things like that--especially outside the Green Dragon--it's time for me to shut up!! Where is Sheryl with her trout when she's really needed?
That's another way of me saying: Please do continue posting like that in here, too, tg.

I had almost forgotten about the lie at the forbidden pool. Overly Frodo-centric reader that I perhaps am, I guess what has registered most with me, is Frodo's misery at having to *tell* the lie, rather than Gollum's POV. Still, if the song's accusing words is directed at Frodo and Sam, and isn't just Gollum talking to Smeagol, I still get the feeling he seems to believe he has more significant and hurtful lies and hard words to blame them for than the forbidden pool ones (or for hiding the purpose of the Journey into Mordor, for that matter......)

originally posted by Maeglian
Although I am happy about parts of the front cover, and sure would like to see a scanned and larger version. Is Frodo actually holding both hands as if in prayer??Bought the TIME mag today, and no, Frodo is not holding both hands as if in prayer, but holding the ring with his left hand. I haven't seen a bigger scan of it anywhere yet, but I sure will post it if I come across one. (don't have a scanner myself)

Also the Jan. issue of EMPIRE will have 4 different covers, Frodo, Legolas, Aragorn and Gandalf. TORN has scans here:
http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1038269007
The one with Frodo:
http://img-www.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/5311.jpg


A tidbit from NY Magzine's Anne Thompson on Oscar race, sounds like she's seen TTT already and here's what she says: The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers. Widely considered better than the first installment (which earned thirteen nominations and four wins), New Line's The Two Towers has mass appeal and gorgeous grand-scale filmmaking (fantasy landscapes, heroic battles, spectacular visual effects). The performances are stronger than the original's, especially those of Viggo Mortensen and the computer-enhanced Andy Serkis. If she thinks Gollum's performance is good, then G&F&S' screentime shouldn't be short, I mean she wouldn't say that if these three only have something like 30mins on screen, right? :confused:


***edit****
UK movie mag Hotdog:rolleyes: has several pages of TTT feature with EW on the cover, it also has the first print review of TTT(kinda vague though, not sure if it's a REAL review). War of the Ring has scans here: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/

If you find the thumbnail sortings are bit hard to keep track which page goes after which(like me), I list the page number with it's corresponding scan here:
Cover Page: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image1.shtml
Page 42: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image4.shtml
Page 43: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image5.shtml
Page 44: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image6.shtml
Page 56: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image7.shtml
Page 57: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image8.shtml
Page 58: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image9.shtml
Page 59: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image10.shtml
Page 60: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image11.shtml
Page 61: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image2.shtml
Page 62: http://www.warofthering.net/movies/photos/hotdog/imagepages/image3.shtml

Resized cover pic here:
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby2/elijahwood228s.jpg



****Might be Spoilers below****



Again from War of the Ring: Footage from The Two Towers on E! News Daily
-- Posted by Fatty on Tuesday, November 26 2002 at 11:13 AM GMT
Kazren writes:

E! News Daily had new footage from TTT - they repeat the news every morning serveral time on E!

The scene involved Sam and Frodo complaining about walking in circles trying to get down into the plains. Sam says there is a bad smell - Frodo hinted that it was someone following them.I'm guessing it'll be one of those footages that actors show to the public when doing promo talk show appearances.

Anyone else notice that Elijah has fingernails in that Hotdog cover. Maybe he'll give up smoking next. :) BTW, loved "The Elijah Effect" blurb's reference to his previous career (Time magazine article). Before he became the most famous hobbit in history, Elijah Wood, 21, already had a brilliant career.

Originally posted by ainon
Could someone please screencap the bit in the Mines of Moria, where we see Frodo reacting to Gandalf's news about how much the mithril vest is worth? I just love the look on his face there. And the fact that EW can show us exactly what Frodo's thinking without needing to say a word.

And also the little bit we see of Frodo and that precious 'one tear' :p in Lorien, during his scene with Galadriel. Please? Anybody? :)
I've tried to go through the mirror scene with a fine-toothed comb (am I looking at the wrong scene wiith Galadriel?) and this is all I can find that looks like a tear. It never falls. Almost looks like a misplaced contact lens, but I'm sure he wouldn't have had them in for such close-ups:
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cropcap1114-85.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/cropcap1123-85.jpg

I've also gotten a series from the "mithril shirt" reactions, but don't have time to post them right now--if someone with a better program has been working on it, let me know. Otherwise I'll post mine when I get to work.

tg -- I'm pretty sure that is the One Tear. Either it never actually fell, or they just didn't include it in the final edit. I noticed where he looked teary-eyed the first time I watched the SE DVD, and then his eyes go back to looking more like the rest of the scene.

And about that cover shot on the Hotdog mag: I'm afraid that's quite an old photo. So, apparently the fingernail-biting and smoking are more recent developments. I wonder if it's due to the stress of an ever-accelerating career?

EJW, quoted in Widescreen Magazine, which I bought today at London Bridge Station because I caught sight of The Eyes across the crowded stationery store (lots of nice TTT piccies in it, UK people take note). The interviewer asks him about his fans: So are they after Frodo, or Elijah?

;)

And Lij says: I think mainly Frodo fans. They all want me to sign my autograph as 'Frodo Baggins' not 'Elijah'. I bet you most of them don't even know my real name! But that's okay.

Earlier in the interview the guy says, Hey, Elijah, you look a little like Frodo, even without the Hobbit wig and the hairy feet. And Lij says, Yes, I get that a lot. It's the haircut, don't you think? I didn't have to change my look much for this movie.

Well, if I ever met EJW in the flesh I would acknowledge him as Lij, that's only fair. But I would definitely let him know that for many of us he is Frodo Baggins Leaving and Breathing.

:)

Here's the link to the January 2003 Empire cover with Lij as Fro:

http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/5311

Originally posted by ainon

Could someone please screencap the bit in the Mines of Moria, where we see Frodo reacting to Gandalf's news about how much the mithril vest is worth?

I did this one the other day... good taste...
http://web.kcnet.org/arielshouse/frolookinggood004.jpg

Hope this is the right one...

[/lurk]
Deluby - thanks for posting the links to the Hotdog article! :)

I mostly lurk here, but since I'm delurking to thank Deluby, thought I'd send a general chorus of "Thank you!" out to everyone who posts here (regularly or irregularly). Believe it or not, I've kept up with you since you relocated to KD (no small feat, believe me!) ... I do enjoy the thoughtful, well-written posts (and queries) here. :)

[lurk]

Originally posted by Pearl
Earlier in the interview the guy says, Hey, Elijah, you look a little like Frodo, even without the Hobbit wig and the hairy feet. And Lij says, Yes, I get that a lot. It's the haircut, don't you think? I didn't have to change my look much for this movie.
I don't know what kind of a haircut he's sporting now, but I'd say it's him. After all, I didn't need a curly wig and hairy feet to see that Huck Finn was really young Frodo growing up on the Brandywine -- of course, at that time I never would have guessed these movies would ever be made! IMHO, Elijah's always looked like Frodo--just at younger ages. So why change his look? (As opposed to JRD--as soon as I heard he was cast as Gimli, I thought, "Great! His face looks just like a dwarf's!"-- only to have it buried under prosthetics :rolleyes: . I'm very glad that PJ and company saw that Elijah already looked like Frodo. :) )

Well, if I ever met EJW in the flesh I would acknowledge him as Lij, that's only fair. But I would definitely let him know that for many of us he is Frodo Baggins Leaving and Breathing.
Me, too. :p :)

So, apparently the fingernail-biting and smoking are more recent developments. I wonder if it's due to the stress of an ever-accelerating career?
Well, we always have Josh Hartnett to blame for the smoking ;) , but the fingernail-biting might be a bit more difficult to track. :)

Just pop in to say

Happy Birthday Ariel !!!!!
http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/happybday2.gif http://www.imagemagician.org/images/deluby/happybday.gif

(de-lurking)

Many Happy Returns, Ariel!

:D

(re-lurking)

First of all, welcome to the Faculty Lounge, Elanorth. Nice to know you're keeping an eye on us even if you don't pop in regularly.

deluby, thanks so much for putting up those links to the Hotdog TT article. It made it much easier to go through - you're an angel!:)

I did notice a quote in there from EW about the time they were working on film one, when they got snowed under and had to switch sets and shoot a scene from film three. EW said it freaked him out as he hadn't thought about where his character would 'be' at that stage, and there were - 'four pages of dialogue where Frodo had to reject Sam, and it was this horrible scene...' He does go on to explain that they shot part of it then, and came back to finish it a year later, due to scheduelling. How difficult must that be? So it sounds as though Frodo is rejecting Sam in ROTK, which is good.

I also noticed in that NY mag review the dreaded words, 'forty-five minutes of Helm's Deep.' I only hope it will be forty-five minutes total, split up, cutting back to Frodo, Sam and co. in between, though they may be going for the spectacular effect and have it as one long set-piece battle scene. I'm sure it WILL be amazing, and will be exactly what a lot of fans will love. But I will look forward most to seeing the more 'intimate' side of Frodo, which Karl Urban (in Hotdog article) says we will see in TT.

Gollum sounds as if he's going to be brilliant, and that's also very encouraging. I saw something interesting on the BBC's teletext service a few days ago; there was a piece about New Line pushing for Andy Serkis to recieve a 'Best Supporting Actor' Oscar nomination for Gollum.

Does anyone think EW will be nominated for 'Best Actor' either for TTT or ROTK? I would love to see him win a prestigious award in recognition of his talent, and in particular for his wonderful portrayal of Frodo Baggins. I think he's more likely to be nominated for film three, though I won't hold my breath, given some of the panel's choices in the past. (I do realize I am extremely biased, but then we all are here.) Oh well, we can but dream.

Bye.

Edit. Just noticed above posts.

HAPPY BIRTHDAY ARIEL!

Hi everyone! You lot have been very busy posting! If this is what it's like now what will it be like when TT comes out?! :eek: Will there be a posting frenzy or will the FL be really quiet cos everyone's away watching the new film? ;) Have any of you got your tickets yet? I got mine on Friday.

Happy Birthday Ariel! Many happy returns. :) :) :)

Hi Blossom - you were asking after me before, I'm doing fine thanks, now that the college crisis has settled! How are you, how's your poor wee doggie? btw, here's a pic of EW's latest crush that you were asking about earlier, Ling from Ally McBeal - http://www.geocities.com/hiworldz/22.jpg I want her hair!

I hope EW gets the Oscar for ROTK, we're all keeping our fingers crossed anyway (here's hoping those Oscar fuddy-duddies will wake up and smell the coffee come 2004!)

Aww my mum and dad were really nice to me today, they saw that Cheerios have got LOTR 'Action Movie Stickers' free with them, kind of like Deluby's animations! and they spent several shopping trips searching the shelves at Tescos until they found me the Frodo one! :) All the other times they looked it was all Aragorns or Sarumans they had left, but they didn't give up! And they call me obsessed... :D

Here's a rather fetching Frodo stamp (only available in NZ though - lucky Prim, Azalea, Viola and Goldie :rolleyes: ;) )
https://secure.nzpost.co.nz/nzstamps/recent/Images/s_2002_lotr2_150_l.jpg

Originally posted by Pearl
Earlier in the interview the guy says, Hey, Elijah, you look a little like Frodo, even without the Hobbit wig and the hairy feet.
That reminds me of that interview with Jonathan Ross from Film 2002 that I posted a few pages back, he said to EW something along the lines of "There is a lot of the hobbit about you, even without the makeup". Lij just politely said, "Well you spend all that time playing a hobbit, it must rub off a bit". Too sweet!


If I ever met Elijah, of course I would greet him with his own name (if I could manage to get the word out!) but the chances of that happening are zilch.

I was reading an EW interview in a magazine yesterday (I always feel guilty about reading and not buying, ah well, it was for research purposes :rolleyes: I can't remember the name of the magazine though, will have to check WH Smith again. And I was in Edinburgh on Sunday (where they have big, decent shops) and still no sign of the TT books! Am I glad I got mine online!

Maeg - thanks for your thoughts on Gollum's Song! Very interesting, I was wondering about who's POV the lyrics where from myself!

Bunnie - I thought that as well about the Mirror of Galadriel scene in the SE DVD - it cut to his face and his eyes were full of tears then 2 seconds later he was fine again! It was a bit strange. Maybe this was the 'Cate waiting whilst Elijah tries to cry on command' phenomona that was discussed a couple of pages ago??

Sorry if I've missed anything out!

Hugs,

Luth

Hi everyone, and happy birthday Ariel!!:D

I am excited because a number of magazines have articles on TTT

Starburst has just come out with a special on TTT

[quote] PJ-Elijah can register such subtle emotion on his face, that I really love doing closeups on him. He really brings a superb emotional level to Frodo's scenes. And although he's a very instinctive actor, we discussed the character quite thoroughly, so Elijah certainly understood what we were trying to get across in every scene....[quote]


EW [quote] I don't make any method choices. Instead its more about knowing the character, being in the moment, listening to the other actors, and making the scene into a real situation. Once I understood my character, I'd try to become that character.So anything that happened to me during the day, I would try to view from Frodo's perspective....in some ways an unconscious thing happens, when you are acting, where the character is with you at all times.....I believe in completely understanding the characterm and understanding the journey the character undergoes, so when I got to nz I plunged into the books [quote]

sound like its answers one or more of the questions that we wanted to put to EW?? ;)

EW [quote] Frodo comes to the realisation that he coudl become like Gollum. ...so the closeness that Frodo eventually has with Gollum, is about them being kindred spirits. Frodo, in his own growing obsession with the Ring, knows that Gollum represents what the ring is capable of doing to a hobbit. It's something that resonates quite deeply with Frodo, and that's why he wants to save Gollum, because if Frodo can save Gollum, then he can save himself. It's a very interesting dynamic, and makes Frodo's own journey very exciting [quote]

:eek: oh boy, I can't wait to see this movie :D

viola

edit: the Starburst mag also hints that there is more to come in the next issue :D :D

Thanks to everyone who posted the links to and tidbits from magazines--especially the UK ones which I probably won't get a chance to see. Viola, those two quotes are very reassuring :) .

Luthiea--Can I adopt your parents ;) ? How sweet of them to go to all that trouble!

I wasn't going to post again until morning, but saw the other posts and wanted to add my Happy Birthday, Ariel!! :cool: :cool:

[...although I still don't see it listed anywhere :confused: ...did I miss something? :o ]

Some of you may have seen this over at TORn. Someone saw a small article in a magazine, with the following EW quote:
There's also a sequence near the end of the film in a town called Osgiliath. I can't reveal what exactly, but something happens to Frodo that's gonna freak people out.
I figure this might be the trailer scene where Sam is holding his hand. Unless PJ has added something shocking. In a way, this "freaky Frodo" appearing so early in the story is kind of bothering me. I hope PJ doesn't go overboard with it. I mean, I could handle Frodo having nightmares or something, but nothing major, like attacking Sam. Opinions?

Coming up for air after a particularly busy week (but now its a looong weekend, Yay!), what do I find? Amazing new pictures, many faces old and new in the Lounge, and its Ariel's Birthday?

Happy Birthday, Ariel!

And what wonderful new tidbits to celebrate with!

Elve--Welcome back!:k those clips you posted are wonderful! I hadn't seen either the TRL or the vidiots clip. Thank you so much. :)


EW interview quoted by Viola:
in some ways an unconscious thing happens, when you are acting, where the character is with you at all times.

Hmmm, this seems to be at odds with the phenomenon some of us have noted in which at times you see Frodo and at other times you see EW in Frodo's clothes. And is it Frodo (or EW) who can fall asleep anywhere, anytime and come immediately back into the scene he is doing? I am not sure I buy this explanation.

Ohh, the PR machine is truly cranked now! So many magazine covers! So many interviews just happening to be published now.

Maeg: very interesting reading of the Gollum's song lyrics. I can't wait to get my hands on the whole score.

Is it December 18 yet?

Nilmandra over at COE scaned the TIME cover. Woohoo!!


http://www.imagemagician.org/images/nilmandra/TIME.jpg

Originally posted by Vita S-B
Hmmm, this seems to be at odds with the phenomenon some of us have noted in which at times you see Frodo and at other times you see EW in Frodo's clothes. And is it Frodo (or EW) who can fall asleep anywhere, anytime and come immediately back into the scene he is doing? I am not sure I buy this explanation.

Note that in the quote he says, "when you are acting." I think this separates it from when he's in Frodo garb, but not acting. I doubt that he meant that he goes around all day as Frodo. He's very much Elijah when he's not "acting."

I don't think the two have to be contradictory. Having the character with you at all times isn't the same thing as being the character at all times--although I can see that if you've been doing it almost unconsciously since you were six, it might be hard to verbalize the difference. His remark about trying to view things from Frodo's perspective throughout the day seems to me to fit very well with his natural acting style. It's really quite different from, "How would I respond if I were in the character's situation," which--if I understand it correctly--is more the POV a method actor would be coming from. It would also seem to be wonderful background for those subtle emotions--if he's thinking of not just how Frodo would respond to being run through by the WiKi's sword, but also how Frodo would respond to his eggs being a bit runny at breakfast (or to having to get up before dawn each day and just getting on with the "task").

----------------------

So far, my efforts to get hold of a copy of Time have been met with "sold out"--I hope that's a good sign, although I would like to find one :p . Haven't given up yet. In the meantime, thanks for the scan! -- Although I'm dreading a bit what might be said in "Why We Crave Fantasies Now." Usually that kind of analysis in the general press is completely off the mark :rolleyes: -- especially when they try to lump Tolkien's work in with other "fantasies." If the article says LotR shows a clear-cut, simple battle between easily recognizable good & evil, I do believe I shall scream (to channel a bit of Scarlet O'Hara ;) ).

tg, the Fantasy article in Time is on-line:

http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101021202/amfantasy.html

I don't know if that's the whole thing or not, as next week's issues of Time don't appear to be available here yet. But, yes, it talks about the old Good vs. Evil thing, along with the "why do we crave the past and not the future" thing. I was considering writing a letter to Time ranting about it all...

Thanks for all the interview snippets, everyone. They are very interesting, and I'm both print- and video-media-deprived out here in the boonies. I'm glad that the hype appears to be out there, even if it hasn't touched this corner of the world much.

edit -- I was at the eye doctor yesterday, and he had me try a new type of soft contact that is more oxygen permeable but contained only 24% water. As I was wearing them, it struck me that these would be perfect for someone who needs vision correction but rarely seems to fully blink! And who falls asleep at the drop of a hat... :D Plus, when I looked at my eyes carefully, I couldn't see the edges of the contacts like I usually can with my normal contacts.

It just seems that putting in and taking out contacts constantly while wearing all that movie makeup would be a real pain... and anyone who really needs contacts (I've got no idea how bad Elijah's vision is... probably not as bad as mine :rolleyes: ) would find it difficult to get around a set without having them in.

Mel

tgshaw: get ready to start screaming! ;) I loved your earlier quote, tg, about the line between Good and Evil being drawn through the center of a person in Tolkien's work. Amazingly true.

And, yes, the Time article gives the same old BS about how 'we long for fantasy because Good and Evil are so much simpler.' Hmphh. Which LOTR did that guy read??

I think someone (probably tg again :) ) has brought up before that Frodo goes through his struggles and quest without ever gaining power or skills. He finishes the Quest almost as he begins it--as a small Hobbit alone against a powerful enemy...and whose only hope lies in...Humility. Forgiveness. Pity. Mercy. Redemption. I say 'almost' because he does gain wisdom and insight..but not the sort that allows you cast a level 3 fireball spell. :)

And people say LOTR is simple? Unbelievable. :mad:

On a different note: I was watching the Ice Storm on TV the other night and noticed something interesting.

We've had many discussions about Elijah's laughing skills, have we not? Or lack thereof. :) Well, when Mikey is sliding down the icy road on his back, he is laughing beautifully. Realisitic and natural for a 14 year old and very charming. ;)

Once I had heard it, I had to dig out my DVD and listen to it again 3 or 4 more times.
It would be cool if some talented person could make an audio file of it...

I'm starting to think there is really nothing this young actor can't do...and do well...and maybe there are other interprations for the laughter oddities we've noticed before.
So, he was purposely going for a 'strange' laugh in the Faculty.... And perhaps just went a little overboard on the 'happy dancing hobbits' laugh?? :D
<sigh> It would've been awesome to hear Fro laughing like this......

Point taken, Bunnie and tg. I neglected to pay attention to the "when I am acting" phrase. I frankly don't care HOW he does it, as long as he continues to do it! :D

Stormy: I watched the Ice Storm the other night, too. And I cried at the end (again). What a wonderful performance. What a downer of a film.

So we crave fantasy because we want simple answers to complex problems? So says Time magazine, and we all know that they know all, right? Dumbkopfs. :mad:

But they did have the good taste to put Frodo on the cover. And to call Elijah brilliant.

Happy Birthday Ariel!!!

I don't really have much else to say at this point, except thanks to everybody for their great discussions, as always. And thanks for the magazine articles. I'll definitely be scouring my local newsagents (or bigger shops if necessary) for copies. I've already reserved my dad's copy of Time as he gets it on subscription.

Also been enquiring about ticket sales. I'm hoping to get to see it before the 18th, if I'm really lucky there might be previews on as early as the 12th. Fingers crossed! Might have to use up some holidays going to see this movie. :)

Originally posted by stormyday
He finishes the Quest almost as he begins it--as a small Hobbit alone against a powerful enemy...and whose only hope lies in...Humility. Forgiveness. Pity. Mercy. Redemption.
You are so right, Stromy. That is exactly why this story resonates with me like no other. Every other great epic concerns the good of the world hinging on the hero's gaining of power through strength and fortitude. Frodo has strength and fortitude and determination, but it is the fortitude to simply continue against all hope. And the quest is to destroy power, not to gain it. And those the world would view as having the greatest chance of succeeding (a powerful wizard, a heroic king, etc.) are unable to fulfill the most important deed. Only the humblest of creatures can hope to achieve it. And in the end, the quest is accomplished because of small acts of mercy. I need to plant a big wet one on the Professor. :k

Now then... the picture on the cover of TIME just screams religious symbolism, as have some other pictures we've seen lately. This could be lifted right out of the Agony in the Garden...

http://members.truepath.com/bananachunks/TIMEfro.jpg

"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death... If it is possible, may this cup be taken from me." (Matthew 26:38-9)

Do you think this is an intentional angle played up by the marketing folks, or is it just that the character of Frodo is inherently so Christ-like (while not directly allegorical) that parallels are inevitable?

Oh and on-topic... Elwood says in TIME: "[the third film] is the most tragic. People have no idea what they have coming." Well, aherm, some of us who've read the book may have some idea... :p

"[ROTK] is the most tragic. People have no idea what they have coming."

Beg to differ, Elwood....

I think the poor boy underestimates the number of people who have read this work. That fact combined with knowing PJ’s bent for going ALL the way to bleed the angst, I can very well imagine what is coming. The Angst Maven wipes the drool from her chin…

As for the religious angle – yeah, I do think Time is playing that up, and sorry… it does not endear me. I tend to agree with the dear professor’s hold on allegory (even if I have used it either consciously or unconsciously) and find it a bit stodgy. The nicest part of both Tolkien’s work and the movie is that it transcends allegory – and because it does, it can be enjoyed and appreciated by people of many different belief systems. Not everyone in the world is christian, you know…

However, I also think that is too fine a point for Time magazine to even comprehend. Especially in light of their ‘fantasy’ article :rolleyes:.

Thanks to all who wished me a happy birthday… I was trying to ignore it. They say life begins after 40… Well, it can start any time, as far as I am concerned… :rolleyes:

Ariel

[Ramble mode on!]

Tg, thanks for those screencaps of the "One Tear" in Lorien. I like that term above all other "Ones" now (you know, like the "One Shirt") because the One Tear has actually been named so by EJW himself! :D :o


Remember me ranting on some time ago because none of the new TTT movie related books were anywhere to be found here? Well, now they are all here, as is the explanation: They have all been translated, even the childrens' companion with the stickers in. So apparently the problem wasn't that marketers were unaware that there is a big market for this, but rather that the market is so large that translating the books is expected to pay off.

I am now the happy owner of Brian Sibley's book about the "Making of the Trilogy". It's such a fascinating read, and the sheer magnitude and complexity and skill involved, not to mention the seemingly impossible-to-cope-with logistics of it all; -it's all unbelievable. I know most has been commented on before, and anyway I can't quote anything without having to translate it back to English ( :rolleyes: ), but there are a few things I'd like to mention nevertheless:

- The description of the London premiere day and the actors' PR and "giving interviews" workload...... what should be a party and revelling in the general audience admiration and adulation just sounds *completely* exhausting and stressful!

- And the very first photo inside the book, the title page photo, is one of Frodo and Sam that I haven't seen online yet. (Maybe it's just me?) They are sitting huddled under their cloacks against some rocks (in Emyn Muil?), apparently very cold and miserable in heavily pouring rain, while to the left one of Gollum's hands is visible.


From Blossom:
Does anyone think EW will be nominated for 'Best Actor' either for TTT or ROTK? I would love to see him win a prestigious award in recognition of his talent, and in particular for his wonderful portrayal of Frodo Baggins.I don't think he'll have *any* chance of being nominated for TTT. TTT doesn't have enough Frodo screentime and -drama. (Reading about those 45 minutes of Helm's Deep makes me sad. I mean; 45 minutes!?!?. But that's probably just me, again.)
And I know several of you don't agree with this, but I truly do not want to see EJW get nominated for the "Best Supporting Actor" that New Line was going after last year. I think it would be tragic if EJW who carries so much of LotR, and who IMO remains the film's main character (and has top billing) should end up being deemed a "supporting" character. I'd rather he didn't win anything at all.

But RotK, now: Troubled young man fights addicton, scary inner demons and constantly increasing mental disturbances through extreme adversities such as war, hunger and catastrophes. Helped by others and by lojal friendship almost beyond belief, he still has to shoulder far too heavy responsibilities and face difficulties that slowly drive him to the last brink of a complete breakdown, and which also cause him to alienate his friends. Yet in the end, he perserveres and wins through, although at heavy personal loss and mentally, emotionally and physically traumatized for life. (Disclaimer: This is not my take on Frodo in RotK, but my take on the role in a "Academy Award Synopsis writing" mode!) If EJW delivers the performance we think he may have delivered (and which co-stars like McKellen and Bloom publicly say he delivered), AND the Academy manages to forget the prostetic feet and ears and those co-stars that are either complete CGI or dressed up as scary monsters............ THEN I think he may have a shot, because the role and the storyline have all those "Oscar-like" qualities.

I do continue to wonder, however, how likely it is that *anyone* will seriously be considered for an Oscar for a role that he acted 5 - 6 years ago at the time of the award ceremony. :confused:

From Elevensies re. religious symbolism in various photos and promotional pics of Frodo:
Do you think this is an intentional angle played up by the marketing folks, or is it just that the character of Frodo is inherently so Christ-like (while not directly allegorical) that parallels are inevitable? I definitely think this is intentional. Several of the recent promotional pics have such clear references to traditional Christ or Saint symbolism and imagery that professional marketing people cannot *not* be aware of it. I did like this in the beginning, because I felt it resonnated with imagery that, it has to be admitted, has played a very important and profound part in the Western cultural heritage (ie. with my point of reference). With the latest one I think they're crossing the line to exaggeration, though. We're being spoon-fed the symbolism: I was immediately reminded of the Agony in the Garden, too.

I am beginning to wonder *why* they want to continue making such over-evident references to Christ or saints. It smacks of over-simplification, of wanting to make sure one specific interpretation prevails. Recurring imagery references like that reduce the audience's possibility of free interpretation and free use of their own imagination and personal views concerning what Frodo is going through, what his story really means, and what message the author, director and actor want to convey.

Also I have a feeling Tolkien wouldn't have approved of it either, he specifically commented on comparing Frodo to Christ in one of his letters, didn't he? (I'll dig out the reference if tg doesn't beat me to it!)

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I sincerely *hope* we will not be getting equally over-evident crucifixion imagery in RotK!!!

From Viola quoting EJW in "Starburst":
It's something that resonates quite deeply with Frodo, and that's why he wants to save Gollum, because if Frodo can save Gollum, then he can save himself This quote reminded me of one of the points made in that eminent essay by Karyn Milos ("Too deeply hurt"; - about Frodo post-Mt. Doom from a PTSD perspective) that Ariel linked to a little while back. One of the points made there, was that part of Frodo's sense of failure stemmed from not being able to save Gollum, too, from having seen someone so like to himself being killed without managing to prevent it.

I think I didn't thank you properly at the time, Ariel, but I actually hadn't read that essay before and I found it wonderfully enlightening and very sad and true.

[/ramble mode!]

Happy Birthday Maeglian!!

Happy (late) birthday Ariel!

I can't believe you guys are getting so much LoTR promotion stuff: especially the EW interviews.

Except for the foreign mags, there is very little here. Here! Where it all was made! Do they think NZers have had enough of the movie (overkill) or are they smugly assuming we will all troop to see it anyway so promoting it is pointless. :mad:

I doubt EW will get more than a nomination Maeglian, and hopefully it won't be for "supporting" actor, as I really doubt the academy will be able to look past "the feet". From a non Tolkein fan POV they are absurd. Its a pity Jackson didn't have the courage to omit them. :eek:

Bet old sweaty feet ElWood would have been happier without them!

Actually- its a pity Tolk's didn't have the courage to omit them. I suspect the cute furry footed hobbit image of "The Hobbit" became a bit of a liability in LoTR, but he probably felt trapped and had to stick with it.

Prim exits quickly to avoid being thwacked by outraged purists...

Hello all you wonderful Faculty Members! :)

Long-time Lurker, first-time poster here, with some actual imput ;)
Though let me just say first that I love reading all you have to say, it's all very intelligent and in-depth (and I'm a carry-over lurker from the blue place, so I know what I'm talking about ;))

Not that any of you seem to be worrying about it, but Louise's post back on the last page sparked something in my memory...


****POSSIBLE SPOILERS/SPECULATION TO FOLLOW****





There's also a sequence near the end of the film in a town called Osgiliath. I can't reveal what exactly, but something happens to Frodo that's gonna freak people out.- EW

Now, living near Toronto, I've been to the TTT Exibit a couple of times (as I'm sure you're all aware, it's well worth seeing if you're at all able) and I noticed something in the Osgiliath section that may explain the quote above. At the back of the display, hidden partially in the shadows, was a costume clearly belonging to a Nazgul. A Nazgul? In Osgiliath? ...Well, anything's possible considering that Frodo and Sam don't even visit Osgiliath in the book. Certainly, seeing a Nazgul (and probably being threatened by one) would freak Frodo out, and therefore most likley the audience as well!





****END POSSIBLE SPOILERS/SPECULATION ****


Oh, and Happy Birthday to both Maeglian and Ariel! Thank you both for all your contibutions and insights!

And, in the intrest of keeping this post related to the current subject of conversation, I too suspect that it would be unlikley for Elijah to recieve an award this year. If the Academy gave him (or anyone else in that movie, for that matter) an Oscar this year they would feel obligated to hand one out next year as well! This is my suspicion as to why FotR recieved so few awards at the last Oscars...

Omigosh!

Happy Birthday, Maeglian!!!!

Many happy returns of the day.

Me, I think the "making of" features on the DVD's may be useful not only to fans, but to Academy voters; the folks in the business have GOT to see how difficult this performance was. Somehow, I don't think the full complexity of the actors' work was communicated when the Academy voters failed to recognize Ian McKellan's work last year. The feet won't enter into it, I think; by the time RoTK rolls around, EW's bubbly "real" self will be even more familiar to people to contrast with the character of Frodo in this particular film. At least, that's what I am hoping.....

Edit: Welcome to the Lounge Daisy!!

Maeg enters again, worriedly looking around for enraged purists, but there are none in sight.......

Hi, Daisy! Welcome back, I remember you from the Blue place!
A nazgul, now.... That sounds very scarily promising......:eek:

From Primrose
Actually- its a pity Tolk's didn't have the courage to omit them. I suspect the cute furry footed hobbit image of "The Hobbit" became a bit of a liability in LoTR... Yes, it's strange, and endearing, how the fact that the "tale grew in the telling" is so very evident when you read the book and compare it to "The Hobbit". Tom Bombadil would have felt much more at home in "the Hobbit", is my opinion. But as long as Tolkien did at least change the name Bingo to Frodo, despite at one point jotting down that he was too used to Bingo and *didn't* want to change it, I am content.

I can't find that reference I was looking for in Tolks' letters, just a lot of other wonderful comments he has given on Frodo's character and development. Reading the index keywords to his letters as relates to "Frodo" alone is enough to give me the shivers.

And thank you Prim, and Daisy; and Peaceweaver - I had forgotten it's already tomorrow in NZ! :)

I also wanted to say Happy Thanksgiving to all the American Facultiers! :) Guess many of you are travelling or have family visiting?

Originally posted by Maeglian
I do continue to wonder, however, how likely it is that *anyone* will seriously be considered for an Oscar for a role that he acted 5 - 6 years ago at the time of the award ceremony. :confused:
That's a really good question--It should help if they can keep the movie "feeling" current and in the news with the reshoots, etc. Since the Oscars--although they supposedly are given for a particular performance--do tend to be based somewhat on an actor's overall work, it could also be helpful if Elwood could get into a role or two before then that would remind the voters he's around (like in a movie that goes into wide release--hint to distributors :rolleyes: ). But we've also talked about how difficult that could be with ongoing LotR commitments for reshoots and publicity and all the "little extras"--even finding time to be recorded for the video game and the cast commentary!

But, however any of that goes, the "elephant in the living room" is simple genre bias, in that a fantasy film just doesn't win those kinds of awards. Special effects, costuming and makeup? No problem. Winning for best score was unusual. Best Actor or Best Picture would be unheard of--literally--for a fantasy film. Not to say it couldn't happen, but if it does it will a real breakthrough.

With the latest one I think they're crossing the line to exaggeration, though.
Does anyone know if Time came up with that pic on their own? It may be based on one of the posters, but it's certainly not a copy of it. The art isn't even all that great (IMVHO). It probably goes along quite well with their article on fantasy, though :rolleyes: -- clear division between good and evil etc. I wonder if they have Frodo holding up the Ring like that just so they can fit it in the picture :confused: . [That article, BTW, is just the kind of thing that IMHO keeps the genre bias alive and well when awards are voted on :mad: .]

Also I have a feeling Tolkien wouldn't have approved of it either, he specifically commented on comparing Frodo to Christ in one of his letters, didn't he? (I'll dig out the reference if tg doesn't beat me to it!)
I'm at work right now, without the Letters, so you might beat me to the quote ;) -- but, yes, JRRT said very specifically that Frodo is not to be seen as a parallel to Christ; he also gives some reasons for saying that.

Now, I do know that's in the Letters, but there's something else that's more in the "I read it somewhere" vein (meaning I don't remember where I read it :o ) that gives me another reason to think that turning any part of Middle-earth into a Christian parallel would have irked Tolkien. [And if anyone knows where I might have read this, p-l-e-a-s-e let me know!] That is, part of Tolkien's POV when creating Middle-earth and its people is that someone does not have to be Christian to be good to the point of heroism, or to be "saved" (a very Catholic POV, BTW). He had great respect for the "pagans" whose legends, language, and writing he studied, and didn't see them as lesser than himself because they weren't Christian. Frodo--and Aragorn, and every other "good" person of Middle-earth--is specifically meant to be not Christian!! And this was important to JRRT. When someone turns it (well, tries to turn it) all into a Christian allegory it destroys an essential aspect of his characters.

Anyway, that's all besides the whole allegory/applicability differences he felt so strongly about. Anything that would impinge on "the freedom of the reader" (or viewer?) to apply the story in his or her own way would move it towards the allegorical "purposed domination of the author" that Tolkien heartily disliked in fiction.

This quote reminded me of one of the points made in that eminent essay by Karyn Milos ("Too deeply hurt"; - about Frodo post-Mt. Doom from a PTSD perspective) that Ariel linked to a little while back. One of the points made there, was that part of Frodo's sense of failure stemmed from not being able to save Gollum, too, from having seen someone so like to himself being killed without managing to prevent it.
Frodo knows at least as early as Lothlorien (possibly even at Rivendell) that destroying the Ring is going to destroy a lot of other things--not all of them evil. Everything done with the Three will begin to pass away. Lothlorien will fade; how much did knowing his role in its ending increase Frodo's sorrow at leaving it? Bilbo's age will "catch up with him." So will Frodo's--although it's never mentioned in the book, as soon as the Ring was destroyed he should have very quickly aged from 33 to 50 years old (I've wondered if that didn't have some negative effect on his health that could have added to all his other problems).

And if Frodo knew those things, he certainly realized that the destruction of the Ring would destroy Gollum--one way or another. When Gollum says if the Precious is destroyed he will die into the dust, he's not speaking figuratively. The Ring has stretched his life by 500 years; not even tough old hobbits live that long. When the Ring is gone, he'll become what he would have been if he'd aged normally over those 500 years--a pile of bones, if even that. It wasn't just the moment Gollum fell into the fire that could have made Frodo feel responsible for his death, but everything he did towards the destruction of the Ring.

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Four posts added while I was doing my sentence-now-and-then from the office :) . Hello, Daisy, and thanks for the input. That revelation might also fit with Elijah's saying the worst thing (or worst monster, or something, I don't quite remember :confused: ) in TTT would be a surprise. The first thing I thought of when I read that quote about something regarding Frodo in Osgiliath shocking people was that really angry Frodo with Sting pic that came out a short while back. That still has me wondering...

On hobbits and feet and Tom Bombadil--

I don't know if making hobbit feet correctly would make them better or worse--but I've seldom seen hobbits portrayed with feet the way Tolkien describes them. The hair is supposed to be like that on their heads--they brush it, for Pete's sake (Bilbo does, at least)!! IMHO that would look much better than big feet with a few extra hairs on them :confused: (also much warmer in the snowdrifts, when you put the thick hair together with the leathery soles).

Not to go back over everything in the Concerning Hobbits thread, but, yes, Tolkien did kind of get trapped into putting hobbits in Middle-earth. But, actually, it was more Middle-earth's fault than the hobbits. There he was, trying to write this nice children's story to be a sequel to The Hobbit, and the entire history of Middle-earth, with all of its darkness and light, comes barging in uninvited :eek: . So hobbits ended up in the middle of a lot of stuff they were never made for--which kind of fits what happens to them in LotR, now that I think of it ;) .

And Tom Bombadil actually predates The Hobbit, in his poetical creation. If you think we dodged a bullet with "Bingo Baggins" -- JRRT's second suggestion to his publisher for a "Hobbit" sequel (after the publisher said no to what then existed of The Silmarillion) was an adventure with Tom Bombadil as the main character. Do you think his dialogue would have been in rhyme the whole way through the book :eek: ? But the publisher said no to that idea, too (smart publisher ;) ), and insisted on hobbits. Tolkien's problem? He didn't think there was anything interesting left to write about them.

From TIME's inside cover:COVER: Photo-Illustration for TIME by Michael ElinsA little Google found him here (https://www.adobe.com/aboutadobe/pressroom/pressmaterials/pdfs/photoshop/ps7_cust_quotes.pdf), as a satisfied user of Adobe Photoshop 7:Michael Elins is a successful movie illustrator; a fashion, editorial and celebrity photographer; and an editorial illustrator whose artwork has graced many Newsweek covers. He’s a traditionally trained illustrator, a self-taught photographer, and a keen observer of figures and faces. Elins’ work is in high demand. While his work varies widely, three elements of his work remain consistent: a passion for staying true to his artistic concept; his skill as a traditional artist; and his use of Adobe Photoshop 7.0.He has his own lame webpage at Michaelelins.com.

I have emailed him the following message:

-------------------------

Dear Mr. Elins,

Your name is listed as the cover artist of the December 2nd issue of TIME magazine. Are you indeed the artist? I belong to an Internet group fans of J.R.R. Tolkien's Lord of the Rings Trilogy, both books and movies. We are Frodo Baggins scholars in particular and we are wondering several things about that cover art:

1. I'm guessing that you were asked to compose a general Lord of the Rings cover, but were the specifics of the content (the choice of poses of the characters, size and positioning of characters, and so on) of the art your own work, or was the content a suggestion of TIME Magazine, New Line Cinema, the Tolkien Estate, or some other body? Was the final content subject to approval? If so, whose approval?

2. Although the central character, Frodo Baggins, is shown holding the One Ring of Power with only one hand, we see an obvious parallel to the imagery of the famous Agony in the Garden, depicting the suffering of Christ. Was this imagery intentional? If so, was the imagery meant as a lead-in to the "Feeding on Fantasy" article on page 90 of the issue, as a lead in to the month of December (the month of Christmas) or as part of a general marketing strategy? -- which leads into my next question:

3. Although this is the most obvious Christlike imagery we have seen, it is not the first. Do you know if there is any general marketing strategy to depict Frodo Baggins as a Christ figure? If so, is there a direct reasoning for this, such as to attract the Christian market dollars, or to make the books/movies more accessible to predominantly Christian America, or to avoid any connection with or comparison to the Harry Potter books/movies, which had been attacked for its alleged use of witchcraft? Or are the artists and marketers conceiving of the imagery independently?

4. Have any other rabid Tolkien geek fans asked you these questions?


I am interested in this because I love the books and the movies. Although he was a devout Catholic, Tolkien himself stated in his letters that he disapproved of any direct allegory to Christian symbolism, or any other religious symbolism, in his books, preferring intead to refer to universal spirituality and mythology. The books have been immensely popular all over the world by people of all religions, in part because they all find elements of their own spirituality in them.

Please understand that I do not mean to flame you or accuse you of anything. This is only a hobby of mine and I am a curious beast, just as is every other Tolkien fan. I would appreciate if you know any of the answers to my questions.

Thank you so much for reading this.

-----------------------

If I receive an answer I'll post it here, unless it incriminates the artist in some way.

EDIT: I rather liked the good-vs-evil article. The dig at football fans :p alone was worth the reading.

Thanks for the info, Erendis--especially since I still haven't been able to get hold of a copy of the magazine! I guess I will just have to be happy that they were popular enough to get sold out everywhere I've been :rolleyes: .

I went to the website and checked out the "images" page and agree with your assessment ;) . He does have two other LotR posters to his credit. Now I have some background on why Frodo's head never seemed to quite be on his body in that FotR one--that's always bugged me, to the extent that I never wanted a copy of that poster. The Frodo pic on the other one is very nice, but it's "lifted" from the golden Osgiliath poster, so I wonder if Mr. Elis actually did the picture or just pieced things together (now, if he did the Osgiliath one, I'm duly impressed--but he doesn't seem to keep his quality at that level). But the one on Time--even without the religious imagery problem, I just think it's a badly-done picture! It's wonderful that EJW made the cover of Time, but it's too bad he couldn't look better on it :rolleyes: . Maybe next time ;) .

erendis,

You have some hutzsap.:p I hope he writes you back but I have a feeling it could just be ignored.

To makethings clear: I have no trouble at all with hobbits being small, roundish (usually) and fond of food. Its the feet. The large fuzzy flappy feet of the books. They are just too much. ;)

Jackson made it worse: his version has large grubby feet with seriously hideous nails. :eek:

In my defense I might add that the non Tolkeinites I have spoken to have all "icked" over the feet. I'm serious: I think this is one feature that makes non fantasy fans (read Academy here) roll their eyes.
Jackson gets away with hobbits' shortness because he chose such captivating actors, their fondness for comfort is a human trait; but the feet are simply strange at best, ludicrous at worst.

Oh well: if it was a perfect book/movie we probably would not love it so much (perfection being intrinsically annoying) and would have so little to say the Faculty would not exist.
There. I knew I'd resolve this issue (in my own mind) if I just kept at it.:p
but I'm still going to look elsewhere as Frodo descends the stair in Lorien... EW is too beautiful to have such hideous feet inflicted on him ... :p

Aw, Cadmo (or should I call you Prim?), hobbitses had to have one flaw. I have a sneaking feeling that Elijah has lovely (albeit sweaty) feet. :D

Edit: I went to the box office of the newest theater close to me, and found to my horror, that the "cheap" tickets are now $6.00, while regular seats are $8.00. :eek: Good grief! I mean, I realize that in the big cities of the East and Left coasts of U.S. you are probably already paying this much or even more. But never did I think such prices would come to the heartland. Being a movie fan is getting to be an expensive proposition. LOTRaholics are going to be out some serious money the next few months. I'm going to check out the cheaper chain with nice new theaters before I spend this much. The only trouble is, they're at least twice as far away. *Sigh* If only my cost of living equaled the "inflation" rate they're always saying is so low. Unfortunately, I don't ever seem to buy the cheapter stuff included in that rate. :(

Oh, by the way....

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL, AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!

The only ICK moment I had with the feet was the hobbit pile at the bottom of the hill. Otherwise, I think they are rather endearing. Honestly, I do. Some of my favorite sound moments in the movie are when you can hear the hobbit feet padding on the floor as they walk - it makes them so REAL.

I think it really WAS important for the movie that the large feet were retained. Hobbits couldn't just look like diminutive elves or small pointy eared humans - their feet are a big part of what make them distinctive as a race. The feet make them walk and run differently, adding another layer of distinctiveness that would otherwise be lost. (You could tell a hobbit, a human, an elf and a dwarf apart just from their walk, even if you couldn't see enough of the rest of them to distinguish them from each other.) I also think their feet adds to the sense of their endurance, and their perseverance; being barefoot in all those conditions (snow, water, mud, etc.) doesn't slow them down at all, and they NEVER COMPLAIN.

I think it's also an important thing to preserve because it adds additional realism to the whole scale issue. If the hobbits looked exactly like smaller pointy-eared humans, no amount of video trickery would draw an audience into 'seeing' them as fitting into the scenes with the big people - your eye (and brain) would constantly be looking for the 'trick'. So even if you couldn't see how it was done, you would constantly be aware that it WAS being done. IMHO, the feet are an important part of establishing the sense of the hobbits as a completely separate and individual race, thus allowing your mind to 'accept' the illusions as real.

Narya- those are some very good points. Very. I still hate the feet but I see what you mean.

tg- flaws are good! I have one too. ;)
Yes, I'm a Prim I'm afraid. Tried hard to be a Cadmo but it just doesn't seem to wash here in the Faculty.:confused: :rolleyes: No idea why- its so victorian, but there you are...

re cost of fandom: hmm I'm going to be facing higher costs too . I am no longer a casual worker as of next Feb- but back into the regular workforce. Solvency here I come!!
BUT..., and why is there always a "but", no more cheap middle of the day seats ( $6 here ; thats about $3 US ). Oh well. God gives and He takes away.... I hope somewhere deep in their psyches EW and Jackson have even the tiniest inkling of just how dedicated we are and how much their wealth depends on our lunacy. :D

edit: DaisyTighfield: welcome!!! Sorry the welcome is late, the feet thing and the Hobbit thread in the Green Dragon are preoccupying me. Now you're here: stay!!! And thankyou for the Ringwraith info. I'm puzzled by it though: well we can only wait and see.

Erendis: I'm glad you sent off that email.Don't forget to let the Fac know if you get a halfway intelligent response.
I will be frank: I don't like the religious imagery. It seems almost sacreliglious. I'm not sure quite why I feel this since out of a very religious family I'm the only one hell bent on going to well...you know where... ;) but somehow though I think that oblique Christ references would add to the emotional resonance of Frodo (as someone willing to sacrifice and facing horrors with fear but adamant nonetheless) the blatant imagery in several posters/covers just makes me uneasy.

King Lamoni- greetings! I've read your threads in Rivendell so I know (boardwise) who you are. Welcome and p[laese come again. :)

Oh boy, lots of catching up to do ...

HAPPY THANKSGIVING to the American Faculty! :)

HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY, ARIEL (sorry to remind you about it again ;) ) and HAPPY BIRTHDAY, MAEG!!!

Big huge THANK YOUS to tg and Ariel for the lovely, lovely screencaps. tg, I'd love to see your mithril Moria collection too. :) Of course he looks just wonderful there, but it's also priceless, the expressions that cross Frodo's face in that one scene - it's like one expression per sentence, each time Gandalf and Gimli say something. As for the 'One Tear' - does anyone else find it interesting that PJ's direction was for "a tear to come out of Frodo"? That's pretty darn specific, ain't it? And of course our boy finally managed that: one tear. :D Though if there's ever a Q&A with editor John Gilbert I hope someone will ask why the hey he would choose so many of the unflattering shots of Frodo in that scene over the the incredibly beautiful 'one tear' shots!

Also found it interesting that PJ's direction to Elijah for the moment outside Moria was for 'his grief to be frightening'. Somehow 'frightening' was never something that would have occurred to me. :confused:


Some fascinating bits from the DVD commentaries and specials:

- Richard Taylor explaining his favourite Elijah scene, and *why* he liked that scene so. I get such a kick out of listening to Richard Taylor.

- someone in the Design or Production team talking about the rooms in Bag End, and how we'll see these rooms in the third movie. Makes me wonder ... does this mean we're gonna get a nice big chunk of post-quest Frodo scenes?

- in the Costume Design special we get EW in full Frodo costume and a nice bloody patch on his shoulder. That was a nice sick treat. LOL.

- in the special on Sound Effects, we see EW doing the scene where he wakes up, hearing Aragorn sing, and he's looking up, presumably waiting for the plane to fly past. I wonder ... is that EW in character as Frodo listening to some strange flying sound, or EW waiting for the plane to go away so that he can become Frodo? ;)

- so that's the 'EW dangling from cherry picker' bit? Didn't look that bad to me ...


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Welcome to the Faculty, Patricia and King Lamoni! And welcome back, Daisy! :) Thanks for the Nazgul info ... when I read that EW quote about something happening to Frodo I immediately wondered if maybe Frodo'll get his encounter with the WiKi after all, despite the detour to Osgiliath. You've given me hope again, Daisy. ;)

Thanks for the quotes from the mag, Viola! Well, we have it from PJ himself ... 'EW is an instinctive actor'. I am wondering what PJ meant by the additional: " ... Elijah certainly understood what we were trying to get across in every scene " bit. Does this tie in with what we discussed way back, about how Elijah could probably portray emotions even if he didn't understand what was really going on? Although of course that was when he was a kid ...

Eyrie -- good luck getting a ticket to an early show!


from Ariel
The nicest part of both Tolkien’s work and the movie is that it transcends allegory – and because it does, it can be enjoyed and appreciated by people of many different belief systems. Not everyone in the world is christian, you know…

Thanks for saying that, Ariel, and it's been very refreshing to have everyone's take on this. I'm glad you sent off that letter too, erendis. Hope some reply will come your way. I never said anything before because I didn't want to be rude, but I'd become more and more dismayed and heartbroken by the revelation that the publicity stills were indeed religious imagery. I was starting to feel for a while there like LOTR was being 'taken away' from me, and that the idea of Frodo as a specific 'type' was being imposed on me -- something that certainly never happened through my years of knowing and loving Frodo. Then when I saw that TIME cover I practically recoiled in horror at the very notion that LOTR had become a tool for Western propaganda! :rolleyes: :p But of course I'll buy the mag if that cover is sold here. I mean, hey, I'd long ago understood that TIME isn't exactly an example of accurate and intelligent reporting. :D

So tg ... are you gonna take on TIME magazine now, to educate them on the fact that Frodo did not fail? Are we sure that Blackjack isn't one of the writers ... ? ;)

---------------------------------

There's a clip at BagEndInn, of Frodo & Sam at the beginning of TTT -- deluby's described it. :) I think it's encouraging that the first public clip of the movie features our two hobbits.

Also from that site, this SPOILER IMAGE








http://www.bagendinn.com/images/fstf1.jpg









spoiler space



And another Frodo-correct version of the TTT poster:

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/usaweekend1.jpg

Thank you all for the warm welcome! I think I may stick around, as long as I have somthing to say ;)

Wow! ainon! Finally a TTT poster that I like! (That "official theatrical" one with the disembodied heads bothers me...) It's a shame its not official. I think it's better when these posters have as many of the main characters as possible, and this is the only one yet that falls under that category :rolleyes:
And that Frodo and Sam picture! Oh, the angst! :p I wonder where they are...? I always pictured the Emyn Muil as cliffs and ravines and sharp, jagged rocks :confused:

I have to second everyone's opinions re: that Time Magazine cover. It made me recoil when I first saw it, and I don't want to show it to any family members because I'm sure they would be offended by the blatant symbolism. :mad: I agree with Prim on that one, its does seem almost sacreligious. Seems silly that Time would do a cover like that at the risk of offending not only non-Christians but Christians as well!:confused:

I've more to say, but I must be going.
HAPPY THANKSGIVING all you American Faculty members! I wish I could saty home and eat turkey today :rolleyes:

Yes, Happy Turkey Day to US colleagues! Have some pie for me!

(Do they have pumpkin pie in NZ where Goldie is spending the day?)

ainon--thanks so much for the commentary on the commentary. I haven't had the time to go through the whole thing, so now I know where to concentrate! ;)

erendis: you go girl! I agree that the Christian imagery is over the top in that composition. I must say that the poster designs that the folks at New Line are coming up with are not very good, IMHO. I much preferred the Argonath poster and the Frodo holding the Ring poster from FoTR as examples of graphic design. All the floating heads and tiny backgrounds look dumb and don't do the job of immediately conveying central ideas of the film. They are just too busy. The Time cover just seemed to me to pick up on the same aesthetic, what with the battle scene backgrounds, the disembodied heads, and the sepia tone to the whole thing. The only thing they got right was making Frodo the largest and most central figure; and even that they pushed in the wrong direction. :mad:

For those not partial to the Bagendinn, those clips are available at ToRN now. The one of S&F in the Emyn Muil totally rocks!

I agree with Narya about the feet. They are a necessary feature of the race of Hobbits, just as pointy ears and long straight hair are for the Elves. Despite the moans from the Hobbit cast, the feet are intrinsic to who their characters are. And there are some moments in the story when the feet are essential plot elements, such as on the Pelennor Fields, right?

Edited to add: If you REALLY want to see BAAAD religious imagery associated with Frodo, check the Harem, where a photo-manip of the famous B&W Frodo has added a frickin HALO (made of the RING no less) to the image. Excuse me, I am feeling ill.....

Happy Birthday, Maeglian!

Thanks everyone for commenting on the religious symbolism. Ariel, I love the way you put it. :) And nice letter, erendis. I was beginning to feel alone in my discomfort with it... I'm glad to know I'm not. And ainon and Maeglian, you've exactly nailed my feelings about it when you mention feeling like "your Frodo" has been taken away by being buried under the symbolism. It's fine that the story has a religious (especially Christian) resonance for some people, but it doesn't for me, and I don't like having Christianity pushed at me.

Part of the brilliance of the work is that Tolkien's Catholic spirituality infuses it (as tg frequently eloquently describes), but it speaks to people of many different faiths.

From the descriptions of Frodo in TTT and RotK by Elijah, PJ, and others, though, I'm not worried that the religious icon angle will be pushed in the movie itself. I mean, Aragorn was made more human and less of an archetype by the writers; I can't imagine they would do the opposite to Frodo. One good point for the writers and directors... they want to make the story feel as real as possible. And religious iconography feels idealized, not real, to me.

And Vita, I'm glad to hear somebody who knows art articulate the design problems with a lot of the promotional materials. I wasn't able to describe exactly why I liked the Frodo-with-Ring and Argonath posters so much more than the art work on the cover of the TR DVD, or the posters I've seen for TTT (not that I've seen any in person :rolleyes: ... I'm just trusting that my local theater will be getting TTT). The best word I could come up with was "elegant," but that doesn't capture it very well at all. So thank you. :)

Mel

Originally posted by Cadmo
Narya- those are some very good points.
IIRC, EW and SA at least said that the feet were important to "feeling like a hobbit" because they changed how they walked. (Although I also seem to remember that it was EW who said, if he could ask Tolkien one question it would be--why the big feet? :p )

Hmmm... interesting point about non-Tolkien fans not understanding the feet. See, this might not be a bad thing altogether ;) . Those who were around last December/January or so may remember some of the long-time Tolkien reader angst going on then about Middle-earth possibly becoming "mainstream" and so no longer special. Maybe the feet are just a safeguard against Middle-earth being overrun by "fair weather fans" who can't accept it with its faults. Of course, there are none of that type of fan here :) !

---Just read Vita's addition to the Great Feet Debate. Had to laugh a bit about the comparison to Elves' pointy ears since, next to Balrog's wings, that's one of the longest-running controversies among Tolkien readers (so, will put Vita down with PJ on the "pointy" side of that debate :p ). Hmmm... I'll have to reread the part about the Pellenor Fields. Did Merry's big feet have something to do with "standing his ground" [:D ohh, very, very bad pun :rolleyes: ] with the WiKi?

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tg- flaws are good! I have one too. ;)
Yes, I'm a Prim I'm afraid. Tried hard to be a Cadmo but it just doesn't seem to wash here in the Faculty.:confused: :rolleyes: No idea why- its so victorian, but there you are...
I puzzled over this a bit and went back and reread my last couple of posts--then realized that Cadmo/Prim isn't the only one with a case of "board identity confusion." Second time in a week someone's credited me with a comment Louise has made. :) That's my avatar at the blue place, and I can't change it there for over a month yet because of the "100-day" membership rule :rolleyes: , so guess we're stuck with a bit of identity confusion for the time being. Sorry, Louise, I'll try to point people back to you when it happens :) .

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On the Nazgul in Osgiliath that Daisy mentioned--that's actually one thing that does belong in Osgiliath (contrary to Frodo and Sam being there :rolleyes: ). One reason Frodo weeps when he sees the WiKi's army going through the pass is that he knows Faramir will bear the brunt of the attack when the army reaches Osgiliath. And when Faramir comes to Minas Tirith from the battle, there's a Nazgul flying above him.

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Started to write some comments on a couple of other parts of the discussion, but realized I don't have time to say anything coherent, so will wait on that. I mostly came here as my "last stop" before turning off the computer and heading for my mom's for Thanksgiving. Will be "back on the boards" anytime between early Friday and late Sunday depending on how things go there. So, Happy Thanksgiving to all in/from the U.S., and a Very Happy Birthday to Maeg!!

Happy Birthday, Maeglin!

Happy Thanksgiving everybody in the US, and heck, happy weekend to everybody else too!

Welcome Daisy!

Ainon: Loved that picture of Frodo and Sam. Is Sam sinking beneath the rocks or something?

I'm not going to watch the TTT snippet. I hope to keep it a surprise. Though if it appears on the television and I happen to see it, I can't be held responsible!

As a newbie last Christmas to Middle Earth and Hobbits, I can tell you my reaction to them having big feet .... No reaction whatsoever. I just took it for granted - like: "oh these small people have large, hairy feet, okay, so let's get on with the story." I was surprised to hear that newbies had a problem with it.

Had to laugh a bit about the comparison to Elves' pointy ears since, next to Balrog's wings

Okay, I'll probably sound totally dumb here, but you can put it down to me still being a relative newbie. Since I first joined messageboards, I've heard about this thing with the Balrogs and their wings, and even PJ mentioned it in the commentary. What exactly is the debate? If you somebody could sumarise it for me I'd be greateful, or point me to a thread that talks about it even. I've been meaning to ask about this for ages, but now I've finally got the courage :) And yes, I know - totally off topic. I do apologise :)

Unbeknown to me, my dad has cancelled his Time subscription (based on comments here it I suppose that shows good taste), but now that means I'm actually going to have to go out and buy the thing! I think a lot of time and money to be spent this weekend scouring the shelves looking for magazines. For some reason I'm not into collecting the official books or dolls or anything like that, but I'm a film magazind junkie! Especially for this film.

Just in relation to ticket prices. To head to the cinema here in Ireland costs anything from €7-10, which is about the same in dollar values! Lucky NZers paying only $3.00!! Won't be stopping me going as often as I feel the need to :D Oh no!

Michael Elins is fast. Within an hour of my sending that email he answered to say that he's busy with deadlines but he'll work on the questions after the holiday weekend. What a nice guy! I honestly don't think the imagery is his doing. No point in shooting the messenger. I wanna know who's behind him. Maybe he'll tell us.

Michael Elins is also responsible for two other posters, as tg said. The first one is the official dark FotR poster, and this one:
http://www.bagendinn.com/images/tttmainposter_small.jpg Michael Elins.
He must be a head graft specialist. :rolleyes: For some reason when I look at that string of heads I'm reminded of the braids of onion heads that Grandma hung in the attic for the winter. Am I on drugs?

I would be far more impressed if he had done the St. Sebastien/Frodo in Osgiliath poster too.
http://www.bagendinn.com/images/frodo_poster_small.jpg NOT Michael Elins.
Actually, what I really want to know is who composed the Froster? This is the Froster, a masterpiece of composition and a favorite of the Harem:

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/4955_small.jpg NOT Michael Elins.

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About the Wiki:
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Elijah: "Something will happen that will freak Frodo out." Not sure if it's a Naz -- wasn't he already freaked out by them in FotR? I posted a prediction in the Faramir thread that the Nazgul would not be a Frodo thing, but Faramir thing. Boromir, at the Council of Elrond:This very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered...but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before. Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon...Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath...Four only were saved by swimming: my brother and myself and two others.emphasis mine. Also in RotK we learn that Faramir, after letting Frodo go, crossed the River secretly, then sent his men to Os while he went home to Daddy, being rescued on the way.

I wonder if PJ combined the summer battle with Faramir's post-Henneth crossing, sort of a Shifting Event. That would explain the Nazgul at the TTT exhibit. It would also give Faramir a chance to character arc into leadership, if he pulls the Os thing off without his bro to help him. Then Faz could run home, making a nice distraction for Frodo to get away. It would also mean that his men are already at Os without needing to be sent there. It would make a good cliffhanger for the Faramir subplot, of PJ ends TTT with him being chased by the Naz. And F&S&G would already be at the crossroads so they PJ could cut out some of that endless walking.


EDIT: Does anyone else find it interesting that all this LotR promo started up about 10 minutes after the media got done talking about the Harry Potter opening weekend?

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
Since I first joined messageboards, I've heard about this thing with the Balrogs and their wings, and even PJ mentioned it in the commentary. What exactly is the debate? If you somebody could sumarise it for me I'd be greateful, or point me to a thread that talks about it even.
Okay, I know I said I was leaving, but I had to check to make sure the new avatar was working, and there was EE's question just waiting to be answered.

The funny thing about this argument--and others--is that there really isn't anything to summarize! One of the things I love about Tolkien readers is how we can argue for 50 years without saying anything new :p !

I have a complete copy of LotR at the office, but the book I use at home has fallen into a number of pieces, and I haven't been able to find Moria lately (actually, I haven't been able to find from the Council of Elrond to Lothlorien :( ). [Don't bother to tell me I should buy a hardcover--that was a hardcover :rolleyes: .]

So, anyway, I can't give the exact quote, but you can find it easily enough. It's the description of the Balrog, which is included in one short passage. After a quick read and not thinking about it too much, would you say the Balrog had wings--or did the smoke and darkness on either side of him simply look like wings?

Yes, believe it or not, this is the entire basis of the ages-long argument!

Some people complain that the argument is caused by sloppy writing, but my opinon is that the description is so carefully worded Tolkien must have done it on purpose--which wouldn't be the only time he did such a thing!

Did he have a reason for the ambiguity beyond having "a bit of fun" with his readers? I think he possibly did. Looking at the story from within the secondary creation, the account of everything that happens in Moria is based on the part of the Red Book authored by Frodo. "Tolkien the historian" had no other source material than that. If I'd been through what Frodo was experiencing at that moment--and was writing my account of it months later in Minas Tirith--I don't think I'd remember if it was wings or smoke, either! It would, in a way, be unrealistic to have a clear description from Frodo's POV (IMHO).

BTW, the controversy over whether Elves' ears are pointed is based on one sentence in one letter--I don't have time to hunt for that one at the moment :p . We are such amazing creatures :rolleyes: ! When people say we nitpick and pull apart the movie(s) too much, my answer is, "Hey, we're Tolkienites! We've (corporate "we") been doing this for 50 years!" IMHO, the fact that the movie stands up to the same kind of analysis just demonstrates how well made it is :) !

And now I really am turning off the computer ;) . A good weekend to all :) .

Thanks for the explanation, tg. I'll go home now and check out the description.

BTW, the controversy over whether Elves' ears are pointed is based on one sentence in one letter

And while we're on the subject, is there any proof that hobbits have pointy ears or is that just a complete PJ fabrication?

Edit: Which also reminds me that now that we're coming up to Christmas and I'm hearing a whole lot about Santa's Elves, I can't believe how much it bothers me. I never had this problem before! PJ, what have you done to me? :D

Which came first, Tolkein's elves or Santa's Elves anyway?

Right, before I get a warning or something about staying on topic I'm going to go ....... :)

Originally posted by erendis

EDIT: Does anyone else find it interesting that all this LotR promo started up about 10 minutes after the media got done talking about the Harry Potter opening weekend?

I was quite pleased HP got bumped from the top spot after only being out a week! Thanks 007 for doing the dirty work for all us LOTR fans. :) I guess the media knew who the big winner this Christmas will be on into April or May when the Matrix: Reloaded arrives. :D

erendis:
He must be a head graft specialist. For some reason when I look at that string of heads I'm reminded of the braids of onion heads that Grandma hung in the attic for the winter.

LOL!!

So HE is responsible for these posters? When I look at this design, what I see is a designer (or the person choosing the designs) who can't decide what to emphasize: neither which character, nor which subplot, nor which landscape. Yes, there is a lot that goes on in the Two Towers, but *someone* or *something* has to represent the story in this static visual medium. Remember how effective the Black Riders were in the early campaigns for FoTR?

I'm with the Harem on the Froster. There is no confusion about the point of THAT design, now, is there? And the Fro in Osgiliath is also nicely composed: a major character in a characteristic pose as the focal point, with just enough background to set the tone, without confusing scale changes or miscellaneous distractions.

Oh and your theory about Faramir and Osgiliath gives me new hope for the film! Thank you!

and tg: I hold no position on the serious issue of Balrog wings or Elf ears; I was referring to the Movie Elves, not the Book elves. The reference to hobbit feet at the Pellenor Fields is how Gimli finds Merry after the battle.

Originally posted by Eagles' Eyrie
And while we're on the subject, is there any proof that hobbits have pointy ears or is that just a complete PJ fabrication?
I think that it's mentioned in the same letter that tgshaw mentioned. (I don't have a reference for it, but I believe it was a letter to an illustrator who had asked whether he should give the characters pointy ears.) IIRC, Tolkien specified that the ears should not be too pointy, but "leaf-shaped".

BTW, one of the arguments that the nay-sayers in the do-Balrogs-have-wings debate use is to point out that a winged Balrog wouldn't have plunged into the abyss in Moria - he could have just flown back up. :p

HAPPY BIRTHDAY MAEGLIAN HOPE YOU HAVE A LOVELY DAY.

AND HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL U.S FACULTY LOUNGERS. Don't save any turkey for me - I'm a veggie, but if there's any nut roast going spare... :)

Welcome Daisy - interesting theory regarding possible Nazgul presence in Osgiliath. Mmmmm... Angst... OMG! Poor Frodo!

erendis, I DO like that third poster, or Froster as you call it - don't get to the harem very often, but I can certainly see why that pic is so popular there! Good for you for questioning Michael Elins on the religious imagery in the posters question - and you have to hand it to the man for acknowledging your e-mail so quickly. It will be interesting to see what he has to say when he gets back to you. I'm sure you'll keep us posted.
What's that about onions and grandma and the attic, erendis? Don't worry, you sound perfectly lucid and sober to me!!!

There may be spoilers below, though I imagine most of us here have read the books through to the end.

I have to say religion has never entered my head while reading or watching LOTR. For me it IS spiritual in a sense, but in a personal, not a religious context. Frodo's journey strips him to his soul; the outer, visible layers of his character and personality are peeled away by the terrible burden he has taken on. He suffers, yes, but he IS corrupted by the power of the ring, he DOES succumb to temptation. By the time he reaches Mount Doom the Ringbearer is far removed from the Frodo we know and love. Ultimately the essense of Frodo, the core of his being, remains. But in his own eyes I imagine he feels his soul/spirit/character is 'tainted', and to some extent his subsequent mental suffering is his reaction to that belief. Does that makes any sense?!

Ainon. I loved that Frodo and Sam picture too. Haven't seen that before. Looks like Sam is in trouble there, and Fro is comforting/trying to help him.

Not long to TTT now. The suspense is killing me!!!

Bye.

OK, I know when to give up. But I promise I didn't intentionally take tg's avatar. She had a different one here when I made it. We both just liked the same scene. But here's a new one, and if someone else already has it, well, maybe I'll just use a stick figure Elijah pic as that seems to be the only one not yet taken by someone. Unfortunately, I'm not that good at remembering whose avatar is what, especially when they change them around. :( I just know which scenes I like. Time for turkey.

Hi, all! I only have a second, so I'll try to be brief...

First, happy birthdays to Ariel (belated) and Maeg! Hope they were happy!

Second, in reference to the ear shape: I read Tolkien's letters this summer (much more fascinating than I thought they would be) and there was a letter where he was describing to an illustrator (as tg said), and he actually said that hobbits' ears were slightly pointed, though not so pointed as elf ears. Now, whether he was talking about his own elves or Santa's elves is not clear... :p

Oh, and the Froster... The first time I saw that I just about dropped my mouse. 'Nuff said.

Folks, only 20 days! :eek: And only about a week until the premiere! It's incredibly excruciating, isn't it? :cool: I'm still avoiding spoilers, and it's getting harder and harder to resist looking at them.

And psssst! Vita! I know you know this, but it was Pippin that Gimli found because of his foot after the battle. I won't tell anyone that you made a little boo-boo! :D

Happy Thanksgiving to those who celebrate it. I'm off to turkey, now!

Crumbs Louise: bring it baaaaccckkk!!!!!:( tg is in full "multi-mode" and frankly I can't see her ever stopping playing with her avatars. :p Learning how to cap , shrink etc has clearly unleashed unstoppable inner creative forces. :p :D

The Prim/identity thing is me pondering over the reasons I chose to be a Cadmo (gender neutral)when I first came to KD and whether they still hold. And why I feel silly, a bit dizzy, as Primrose but ok as "Prim". These things can preoccupy me more than is normal for most people LOL. Of course way back when; in Imladris I was agonising over changing my leaf avatar, did, couldn't hack the stress and took my leaf back. Therapy clearly needed here.

from Mel Headstrong Part of the brilliance of the work is that Tolkien's Catholic spirituality infuses it

Very nicely put Mel, I like the word "infused". I see LoTR as very spiritual/moral but those posters...sigh.
LOL erendis: onions. I agree with you and Vita: those posters just don't work. There's no focus/theme just clutter. Ugly clutter IMO.
The Froster however lives on my desktop. This image is almost unrecognisably EW; it is full on Frodo.

Weeelllllll, Prim, for you I might just go back and change it! :D Elijah in that scene looks like a painting, don't you think? You know, when I see the name "Primrose", I always think of Gilbert and Sullivan's "Poor Little Buttercup". This is because when I was a kid we had some favorite wildflowers that we called "buttercups" (due to their abundant pollen), whose official name I later found out was actually "primrose". So for me you are forever associated with G&S and childhood days of giving people yellow "tattoos". Not bad things to be linked with, eh?

Have any of you read the short interview with Alastair Browning (who plays Faramir's lieutenant) over at TORn? His responses to two of the questions were "interesting":

When was the last time you cried at the movies?

Don't often cry at the movies because I am too aware of the artifice, but I remember being very moved by The Ice Storm.

Who has been your favourite co-star?

Elijah Wood is a very special person as were Alicia and Aaron who play the children in Rain.

He sounds like a fan too. :) The rest of the interview can be found here:

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1038519146

Hello everyone!

Hiya Daisy, nice to meet you! You're so lucky to have been to the TT exhibition! :)

Hi to Patricia and King Lamoni too, welcome to the Faculty!

Happy Birthday, Maeg! Hope you're having a lovely day!

Glad you got your LOTR book, too! It's great isn't it - but that creepy Bilbo doll is horrible!

And Happy Thanksgiving! to American Facultiers! I have never had the pleasure of trying pumpkin pie - is it nice?

Originally posted by Vita S-B
Yes, Happy Turkey Day to US colleagues! Have some pie for me!
I've always thought you were American Vita! What country are you from? :)

Cadmo - ((hug)) Did you come to KD first before you went to Imladris? I just kept my CoE name but I'm other names at other sites, but this site is full of CoE people so I just decided to be the same old Luthiea. Anyways, yep, I think the hobbit feet are minging, but I don't mind them that much! I just remember my mum sniggering during the movie when you got that big close-up of Frodo's plates of meet at the stairs at Lorien :p

Louise - just noticed your post re the avatars, don't worry about it! ((Hug)) You didn't have to change it :( I thought you were tg, due to the fact that she used to have that one a while ago, and when you're quickly reading the posts you kind of connect certain avatars to certain posters so I was getting mixed up :) Thanks for that interview btw, EW = a 'very special person' :)

ainon - thanks for the new pic and poster! :D Sam does look like he's half buried though! :eek:

EE - Santa's elves! Hehe, I'm having visions of funny little knee-high men dressed in green wearing hats with bells on!

tg - thanks for your insights! As a new LOTR fan there's still (a lot of :p ) things that I don't understand or am still picking up so it's great to hear from someone who knows a lot about the subject!

Maybe the Balrog's 'wings' were just for balance (if a Balrog has trouble with keeping balance, I don't know :rolleyes: ) you know like how certain birds (ie Ostrich) have wings but they can't fly?

Oh well, think that's enough for one day - really need to go to bed!

L x

I have lots to reply to, and absolutely zero time to do so...I just had to stop in and say I am really glad to be a Canadian today! We had the good sense to separate from Britain through negotiation rather than battle ;) , so we are still close enough to them to carry their magazines without requiring special order. We have the good sense to go about our business quietly enough not to piss off the Americans ;) , so we get their magazines too. And then we produce our own as well!!!

I managed to pick up Time, Fantasy Worlds, and StarLog today. The new editions of Empire and Total Film are not yet in, but they are coming, as are several others with LotR goodies in them. What a feast, after the drought last year!!

In the quick scan through StarLog, there are actually RotK spoilers in the articles - when I get a minute, (probably tomorrow night given my life right now :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ) if no one else has them posted yet, I'll put them in the RotK thread in the Trilogy.

Standing in front of the magazines today, I was truly thrilled that, despite the fact that some of the images are not what I would have liked, the movie IS getting the attention it deserves. That alone is worth celebrating. (Not to mention that it's a great time to be a geek!!! :D :D )

ok, in order
happy birthday maeglian! -sorry its a bit late.

Welcome, Daisy!! :) -really nice to hear from someone who also lurks for ages before deciding to post LOL

tg-that quote about the missing pages...from the HARDBACK even :D :D :D ROTFL

finally...you want a *big*(like REALLY big) poster of Frodo??

check out Total Film


Warning!!! This is *serious* swoon material

(and of course, there is aragorn, legolas, and Gandalf):D

viola

Originally posted by tgshaw
Hmmm... I'll have to reread the part about the Pellenor Fields. Did Merry's big feet have something to do with "standing his ground" [:D ohh, very, very bad pun :rolleyes: ] with the WiKi?

Darling! Pippin's feet under the troll! OME! I can't believe you missed that!

Originally posted by Vita S-B
The reference to hobbit feet at the Pellenor Fields is how Gimli finds Merry after the battle.

MERRY?!?!?! :eek: :eek: :eek: :p

Total Film, eh? Well, I wasn't gifted with that, but my significant other bequeathed me with a copy of 'YM' today... :rolleyes: though it does have a nice pic of Elijah on it's cover. I might be able to scan it Sunday, but no sooner.

Narya! ROTK spoilers?!?! Oh, MUST read... as if I haven't ODed on spoilers already!

Oh, and finally, before I fall asleep on my keyboard...

Happy Birthday, Maeglian!!!!

Ariel

reading and editing

[delurk]

Happy Birthday Maeglian!!! :k

And Happy Thanksgiving to everyone in US!!!:k

[lurk]:k

Weeelllllll, Prim, for you I might just go back and change it! Elijah in that scene looks like a painting, don't you think?

Well, I'm not one to pressure people but: Do Do Do!!!!!
I'm sorry Louise. And I'm sorry tg!!! I'm a dork. Trust me I've muddled other people before without even remotely looking at avatars and its generally because I skim (time pressure). I usually get away with it as I have Sheryl acting as my unpaid editor; she has given me a few pms pointing out my muddles.

Sheryl- where are you? You are falling down on the job!!! :p
(There, I think I successfully shifted the blame...:D )

Oh- and yes, Elijah does look like he's in a painting in that shot.

nb the TTT dolls have finally hit the shops here and though all the Frodo ones here manage to look neither like Frodo nor Elijah ( I do vaguely recollect a comment that they found EW unusually difficult to scan for these toys) the one of Aragorn and his horse is not bad. But would a horse balance on my computer even with the help of blue tack? Perhaps not.

Lutheia: I joined KD about 6 weeks after Imladris and as I was only in Rivendell chose a non Imladris name. I feared "Primrose" would not be taken too seriously on the (heated) political threads....:D. I'm still in Rivendell a lot but mostly as a lurker.

OK I'll change it back as soon as I get home. I'm at my brother's now and don't have access to my collection of LOTR pics. I hope everyone has had a nice day, even those of you who had to work. It's maddening right now just waiting for all the stuff we know is coming soon re TTT. I remember last year I had not really discovered any LOTR web sites except TORn. Plus I was checking AICN because they had a lot of the pics and reviews first. This year Harry seems almost too busy with other stuff to geek much about LOTR. But since he's the one who first put the Frodo/LOTR/Peter Jackson combo into Elijah's head, I guess I can forgive him for that. :D

Just came back from a post-Turkey viewing of Harry Potter and the Chamber of Secrets. All I can say is, Alan Rickman didn't get enough screen time. And we are all going to miss Richard Harris.

Luthiea: I am indeed American. Just off pie right now....you are sweet to notice. :)

And Ariel and BunnieBugs, I deserve a trouting for mixing up Pippin and Merry. My only defense is... well, there IS no defense! :rolleyes: Guess I better reread ROTK!

Is Total Film available in the US?

I broke down and bought the November edition of the UK magazine called Premiere, cause it came with a glossy of the Black and White Frodo head shot, which now has a place of honor near my desk. :cool:

Originally posted by Vita S-B
I deserve a trouting for mixing up Pippin and Merry.

Consider yourself trouted :p - though I think there is a reason 'The Very Secret Diaries' call them 'indistinguishable back up hobbits' - LOL!

Ariel

Originally posted by Luthiea
<snip>And Happy Thanksgiving! to American Facultiers! I have never had the pleasure of trying pumpkin pie - is it nice? <snip>
[/lurk]

Well - speaking as someone who *hated* it 'til a few years ago -- it's much like a custard in texture (although with a 'pumpkin-y' grain to it) -- with cinnamon, nutmeg, allspice, ginger etc. to season it. Rich and autumnal and actually, quite good once I outgrew my little kid attitude about it. Anyone who wants to try it and wants a basic recipe, could PM me and I'd send it your way.


Whilst I'm delurked -- I agree with the recent comments about religious symbolism. A bit of synchronicity going on right now, the Harem has been discussing the same issue especially in re: a recent Russian magazine which is the source of the photomanip mentioned earlier. I'm waiting eagerly to hear what response Erendis gets with her letter!! :)

[lurk]

A BIG thank you to everybody for remembering me on my birthday! :) :)

I don't think I'll manage to bring this post back to topic; - but I just couldn't resist posting reply no. 1000! :o

All right, Maeg! We've reached 1000! :D

I'm illegally using the lab computer to catch up here. ;) One thing I forgot to mention last night was that the Hot Dog review is being viewed with suspicion by some quarters. PJ had already clarified that the battle of Helm's Deep does not last 45 minutes, so we needn't worry about that.

I don't know if I've ever even seen a real pumpkin fruit.



TTT SPECULATION --

Interesting theory, erendis, and good way to wrap up the Faramir angle for TTT. Hmm, Faramir angst in TTT might finally help endear him to me. ;) Oh dear, I hope erendis won't trout me for saying that!

But then EW never said anything about Frodo freaking out ... it's something that happens *to* Frodo that's supposed to freak us viewers. This was the quote Louise posted:

There's also a sequence near the end of the film in a town called Osgiliath. I can't reveal what exactly, but something happens to Frodo that's gonna freak people out.

If we weren't already sure that that big spider has been pushed to ROTK then this could almost be a shout-out for Shelob. :p So instead we're probably getting a substitute terror moment. Can't say I'm complaining. :D




-------END SPECULATION



We get all magazines here; it's just a matter of waiting for a month or more for the mags to arrive. I'll probably look at whatever scans that pop up on-line and find out that way which mag has enough Frodo to justify expenditure. Imported magazines cost a heckuva lot. :(

I did spot a local comic strip mag publicising LOTR. Now that really warmed my heart. The cover seems to be an illustration of Frodo in threatening Sting mode, and it's a pretty good likeness; either that, or it's a slightly different angle to what we're used to seeing.


This is from bagendinn.

http://www.bagendinn.com/images/phonecard2.jpg

Prim a.k.a. Cadmo can now have what the rest of us will not. :p Say, Prim - did you collect the LOTR stamps?

So, anyway, I can't give the exact quote, but you can find it easily enough. It's the description of the Balrog, which is included in one short passage. After a quick read and not thinking about it too much, would you say the Balrog had wings--or did the smoke and darkness on either side of him simply look like wings?

And so the arguement rages on .... I read the Balrog description last night, and I would not claim to argue on the side of no-wings. PJ said in his commentary that it was quite clear, but the text says that the shadow surrounded it like wings. Not that they were wings, just that the shadow looked like wings.

And Gladys has a good point about a Balrog being able to fly up from the bridge after he fell. But so did Luthiea have a good point that they could be just for balance. But based solely on the description in LotR I would say no-wings. Is there suplementary evidence in HoME or Unfinished Tales or the Letters? I've bought UT but haven't read them yet. Next on my list. I haven't bought the rest yet.

Don't save any turkey for me - I'm a veggie, but if there's any nut roast going spare...

Me too, Blossom! :)

In a desparte attempt to stay on topic, let me just say that Alastair Browning has really good taste!

Whooee!! 1000 posts! Time to partee! Well done Maeglin! :D