Originally posted by Brunhild
...join the Francis Sullivan Memorial Peripatetic Society :D. ...
LOL--That one took me a few seconds :D . But very fitting. :D

(Actually, when the deer smashed the front end of my car last fall, I never saw him in the headlights--but maybe that's because he hit me from the side. See, I didn't run into him :rolleyes: . It was rutting season, and when those guys sense female pheromones on the other side of the highway, they don't pay any attention to the traffic. :( )

That accident, BTW, for those who don't remember (like anyone would :rolleyes: ), happened a few miles outside Denison IA, where I got to spend a lovely couple of days while my car was wired back together. Denison IA, of course, is the home town of Donna Reed (From Here to Eternity, It's a Wonderful Life, The Donna Reed Show), and it is very proud of the fact. The hotel I stayed at has a room named for her (no, I didn't get to sleep there :( ). The town has a performing arts center named after her, and every summer they get some actually well-known actors and directors (although I can't remember any of their names :rolleyes: ) to come and give a workshop there for aspiring actors.

I'm pointing this out, of course, in response to King Lamoni's information about Marion IA. (My guess is that Elijah's family lived in Marion, but unlike the famous people from two generations ago, he was probably born in a hospital, which was very likely in Cedar Rapids, since Marion is a smaller town.) See, this is a good thing, because smaller towns such as Denison and Marion are much more likely to pay attention to their famous sons and daughters. I mean, Donna Reed is all Denison has to be proud of (although back when I was in high school, they had a good debating team). So they plaster her name on everything. She was nominated for an Oscar (for From Here to Eternity, IIRC), but I don't know if she won it.

The point is, when Elijah finally acts in some movies with decent distributors and becomes a household name, Marion is much more likely to honor him than is Cedar Rapids which, being a huge metropolis (second in size in Iowa only to Des Moines, and it has a suburb, FGS!) would be less likely to pay attention to, ho-hum, one more famous person. Who knows, they might even ask him to be grand marshal in the Fourth of July parade or something :p !

Now, just one more note about an Iowa-born celebrity, which fits so well with KL's story that it's almost scary! Another famous Iowa native son is John Wayne. His birthplace in Winterset (a really small town) is a tourist attraction, with even signs on the Interstate telling you what exit to take to get there. And... do you know what John Wayne's real name was?? Start Twilight Zone music, please: Marion Morrison!! Oohh, freaky, huh :D :D ?

BTW, as far as Iowa's being a "big place," I guess it depends on your perspective. It's very roughly (I'm just estimating from my own driving experience) about 400 miles across at the widest part and somewhat smaller than that from north to south. It's the only state that's bounded on two sides by rivers. Cedar Rapids (and, I assume, Marion) is in the east, close to the Mississippi, and Denison and Winterset are in the west, closer to the Missouri. Thank you. There will be a quiz ;) .

Speaking of Stephen King and other assorted horrors. There was a suggestion that New Line Cinema should combine two of their most successful projects and produce a sequel to LOTR called Nightmare On Mallorn Street in which Froddo Krüger would make a "comeback" from Tol Eressëa :D :eek:.

Edit: Eldalieva--Vlissingen is a town in the Southwestern corner of the Netherlands. The name should have travelled across the Atlantic with the Dutch colonists ;).

Thanks for the translation eldalievia. I have to say though, I would just LOVE to live in a town called Upper Dorking!!!!:D It would cheer me up every time I had to write my address.

Trust me tg, Iowa is a BIG place from a kiwi perspective. A quiz huh? :eek: Will I pass if I can tell you Iowa is somewhere in the middle???

I watched a (long, or maybe it just seemed that way) Ed Burns movie on tv last night: the Mullaney Brothers. It had a strangely familiar feel: Irish catholic brothers, New York, a lot of street shots (probably because they're cheap as in you don't need an elaborate set?) and yes, walking, walking, walking. Oh. Some running too. :rolleyes:
Can anyone who's seen it confirm that the character Barry (the I Am Not Going To Fall In Love script writer) was actually Ed Burns??? I think I saw that in the credits but it was late and I may have misread.
I can sort of see why EW would be interested in a Burns movie though I must say a fair amount of the dialogue made me roll my eyes. And the acting slipped now and then: I guess that's a result of not having the leisure to do lots of retakes. But Molly has got to be the most unbelievable female character I have seen on the screen for a very long time. :rolleyes:
And Barry was just plain irritating. This is why I want to know for sure if he is Burns himself. :D

Last day of joy and freedom. Sigh. And drizzling!!! Don't ever come to NZ in autumn or winter people: its just plain wet wet wet.
Sole exception: Otago in the late winter- snow!!!:cool: Meduseld territory.

Intercourse? There's a town called Intercourse?!

Mind you, Australia has some doozies, including Perth suburbs Upper Swan :eek: and Innaloo (a loo is a toilet, for the US posters). Marion doesn't sound odd to me when we have Katherine, Wagga Wagga, the Bungle Bungles and Balaclava.

BTW, there's a pretty farm down the road called Rivendell. :D

Hey there King Lamoni. Thanks for your sharing that with us, and my condolences re: your grandma. *hugs*

I'm impressed to know that we have managed to find a connection between the great John Wayne and our Elijah Wood. ;) tg, from a Malaysian's perspective, Iowa is a BIG place too. Can I pass the quiz if I distract you with screencapping material instead? :D


waves to Ariel ... and to Luthiea - if Luth is lurking :k


Originally posted by tgshaw
Ummm, I don't think that's quite what the reviewers had in mind... Try: Fixed stare and then road kill.

The fixed stare is when animals go tharn, to use the proper lapine terminology. ;) Okay, I'm actually looking this up ... mark this day, my friends, I'm actually making an effort to look something up in a book! :p ... from the Lapine Glossary at the end of 'Tales from Watership Down' by Richard Adams: 'tharn' - stupefied, distraught, hypnotised by fear. Rabbits go tharn too, when headlights beam down on them. Most animals would, I suppose - or Gary Larson wouldn't have gotten that nice road kill tour. :D

So anyway, those critics are impressed, I'm telling you. They know a tharn when they seen one, even if they can't work out the plot for the movie. Besides, Frodo's the hero, see. Heroes don't do road kill.

I remember your encounter with the deer, tg. I didn't know the deer ran into you though. And while he was hot on the heels of his doe! What were you doing, butting into their relationship that way? Tsk. ;)


post-mortem and burial of AW remains


I think we viewers are supposed to empathise with Frannie as he works through his guilt of having done the wild thing with Seannie's wife while Seannie was out farming in the wilds. Or something. Frannie wasn't expecting Seannie to ever come back it seems, but anyway, the affair with Grace seemed to have ended before it even began, except Frannie still has feelings for her. I thought the scene where Sean asks Frannie if Frannie had done any funny business with Grace was one of the few redeeming scenes in that movie.

Francis Sullivan Memorial Peripatetic Society ... LOL! After we frame him for Seannie's crimes. Hey, since we're already being mean, let's hobble him up some - just because we're sending him off to jail doesn't mean we should allow him to create undue walking distress among other inmates. And of course the clown will be his cellmate.


the nailing of AW's coffin




Elda -- WooHoo! Another Stephen King fan! Stephen King is definitely one of US - I readily admit that's just one of the reasons why I love him. He shamelessly incorporates Tolkien into his stories too, sometimes. Always a joy to come across such references. There's a book from the early '80s called 'Danse Macabre' where he discusses the horror genre and in one chapter he touches on the different types of heroes we see in fantasy - and he mentions Frodo: after talking about 'sword and sorcery' type heroes ("mostly it's the Hardy Boys dressed up in animal skins"), he says, "At the other end of the spectrum are the characters of fantasy who are either powerless and discover power within themselves ( ... as Frodo discovers it in Tolkien's epic tale of the Rings) ... "


Wow, that's the second book I looked up for one post. That's waaaay too much done in one day. I better go let my brain turn back to mush now.


Have a happy weekend, everybody. Hope you really enjoy this day, Prim! So when may we come visit NZ? :)

Well, I managed to stay silent all through the discussion of AW and CoF, since I haven't been able to see either yet. But place names? I can't resist place names!

We have a town named Biggar, and this is their official logo ( taken from the official town web site, so I'm not making this up! :D)

http://www.townofbiggar.com/Imagestn/logob.jpg

We also have a town named Elbow, another named Eyebrow, and a city named Moose Jaw. (For some reason, people from the US seem to get a big kick out of that name :p )

Marion sounds positively NORMAL to me. :D

Edit: How could I forget? When you're done in Intercourse, don't forget to stop in Climax, SK!

Umm, odd place names... I've worked in Intercourse, PA....it's near (kid you not!) Blue Balls and Bird-in-Hand.

Also worked in central KY where I saw a road sign that said...

Three Licks 5 miles
Climax 6 miles

No joke, real KY DOT sign.

Of course, I once actually thought of relocating to a town south of Pittsburgh called Cognita. That way I could have told people that I lived ..... in Cognita.... seemed like a good idea at the time.....

waves to Ariel ... and to Luthiea - if Luth is lurking
Hey, caught me looking! :D Hi ainon :)

How's it going everyone? Not been about for a while :( been doing a lot of CoE chatting recently, and not seen much EW news lately! Still, thought I'd have a little read of the gang's news (congrats to Sheryl! awww :) ) and see what's been happening lately.

Sorry if I missed anything out, just had a quick read, skimmed it all really - will have to read properly later! But it's nearly 5 in the morning and I'm pretty blotto (ie drunk) :o so I'll just say hi and bye!

Hope you're all well :)

luv,

Luth

{{{Elijah}}}

{{{Faculty}}}

Bridget,
It's tucked in the fully addressed envelope, complete with lime green cardboard supports, and is currently sitting on the corner of my desk. :o I hope to get to the post office with it tomorrow. That and a Christmas present for my long-time friend Kitty, so at least you know you're in good company, right?

Thanks for your birthplace report, King Lamoni! Marion, IA sounds oddly familiar, but maybe I'm just remembering it from driving through Iowa so many times over the years.

Hiya, Ariel, and thanks for the kind words. :)

Originally posted by tgshaw
BTW, as far as Iowa's being a "big place," I guess it depends on your perspective.

As a kid, before the advent of some of the pertinent Interstates, we drove from Michigan to Minnesota through Des Moines, and Iowa seemed to go on forever. (With three kids in the car, probably seemed that way to my parents as well.) Then we moved to Colorado and had to drive through Nebraska to get to Minnesota, and Iowa didn't seem so large after all. :p

I'm enjoying the place names conversation, so of course I have to contribute my parents' home town - Kiester, MN. My mother was Miss Kiester in high school. She still has the sash she wore for the parade. We could never decide if this was something to be proud of or not, even though she did point out that Kiester is not spelled precisely like the word that means your tush (keister).

I always liked What Cheer, IA; Truth or Consequences, NM; and Hygiene, CO. Michigan City drives people crazy because it's in Indiana. I've seen Ann Arbor, MI and Albert Lea, MI on lists of odd or interesting names, never understood why but I grew up near both of them so maybe they don't sound natural to others. I always liked Blue Earth, MN, not because the name is odd but because of the way the locals pronounce it - all one syllable, "Blerth".

Prim,
NZ in the fall sounds like Oregon - my dad used to have to fly in there every year and grumped mightily.

ainon,
Woah, I'd forgotten SK mentions Frodo in Danse Macabre. I'll have to bum that book off my mom again and reread it!

Terry,
A friend of mine named Elyzabeth always wanted to buy a house on Elizabeth street in Elizabeth, Colorado. I think she gave up on that plan when she discovered that in towns that size you don't usually have your own address - you have a PO Box.

I guess I should break down and offer something that's actually On Topic; a picture puzzle of our boy:

http://www.jigzone.com/ms/z.php?ui=385101i758130&z=20_piece_classic&q=gt

The cut I linked to is pretty blah, but you can have the puzzle recut all manner of ways. I like the one shaped like the US (I'm ashamed to admit I haven't a clue what some of the teeny tiny eastern states are, but I can name nearly all the rest). I stole the link from someone at the Gray Panthers site. I could see that the Gray Panthers site would be addictive, so I have carefully not saved the link to that one (Hobmom has it, though).

Sheryl

No fair, Sheryl, Truth or Consequences was going to be my contribution.:p ;) That one's named after a game show, apparently, but I've never actually seen the show. (Of course, that doesn't quite justify naming a town that...) There's a Mexico, Missouri and a Rome, Georgia, both of which are not weird so much as confusing.

That Elijah puzzle is way too addictive.:cool: Fun fun. And Brunhild, Nightmare On Mallorn Street sounds awesome - LMAO.:D

Prim, I checked imdb.com, and surprise surprise, Barry the Irritating was played by our dear Ed.:D I quite enjoyed the review (http://us.imdb.com/Title?0112585#comment) that someone posted there - he didn't mention walking, but he seemed to enjoy the movie about as much as we all liked AW.;) I'm such a bad person, I know.:o Sorry Ed.




Kicking Ed while he's down


Originally posted by ainon
Hey, since we're already being mean, let's hobble him up some - just because we're sending him off to jail doesn't mean we should allow him to create undue walking distress among other inmates. And of course the clown will be his cellmate.


:eek: You know, I *really* hope that no one with connections to Ed ever stumbles across this discussion...:o Anyway, I think it's a great idea. OOOH! I know! How bout this: since Ed is such an accomplished and lauded filmmaker, his Number One Fan can kidnap him after he's wounded during Sean's whole killing spree at the beginning of the movie. Then he can lie in bed for weeks, getting addicted to painkillers and not receiving adequate care for his injuries, so he can't walk properly ever again...am I taking this all too far?:o



and I'll stop there before y'all decide I'm a danger to society.;)

LMAO at all the strange place names! Great stuff! My mind absolutely boggles at "Intercourse", though.
My small contribution: Norway has a town called "Hell". Its post office had a brisk business going with English-speaking tourists, who actually got their postcards stamped in Hell. :rolleyes:


Following the rabbit-in-the-headlights and Watership Down thinking with you for one more (No, 2 more!) thoughts, ainon:
If "tharn" is the proper descriptive word, then quite a lot of us female Frolijah fans would be "Marli tharn", right? :p And I *am* quite sure there is a message hidden in the name of that legendary prince of rabbits with starlight shimmering in his ears: : El-ahrairah.

Can you tell I love Watership Down, too? :)


Poor Ed...... :o

I really *did* like his film "She's the one" though. (About brothers in conflict in NY, surprise! But it's a comedy.) However he was playing a taxi driver there, so he drove everywhere rather than walked. (And that has made *all* the difference.....) :D
And anyway, Ed is getting around. I figure lots of guys would like nothing more than to swap places with him in this situation with Angelina Jolie (who's even looking like Marilyn Monroe fgs!!) From "Life or something like it", 2002: http://us.imdb.com/EGallery?source=ss&group=0282687&photo=Ss/0282687/024543053897_z_lifeicbu.jpg&path=gallery&path_key=0282687 This is extremely on topic; - note the pic of Ellijah to the right, there! ;)

Nightmare on Mallorn Street......(shudders) I must admit I'm *so* not one for the horror/slasher/gore section of either literature or films. I've kept well away from Stephen King for that very reason. (Although I *have* seen the Shawshank Redemption film, Bridget. :) ). Some time ago ainon did such excellent promotion for King's "The Long Walk" as one for the Frodo-angst-centrics among us, and I've been looking around for that since then. But no luck. I even tried the really big bookstores in London when I was there for the hoot. They had shelves upon shelves of King, but..... nope.

So now it's become something of a fixed idea with me that I'll not read anything by King until I get hold of that particular one..... :rolleyes:

And no, I haven't seen "Misery" either. I know what it's about, of course, and Kathy Bates getting an Oscar and all, but....... ick! No! (Shudders)


((((Luthiea)))) Good to see you back here, however briefly and late at night! :)


Tg, of course we remember your deer incident, and very glad we are that you didin't get hurt. Do you still have the same car?
I must admit I remember it especially so because that happened in the very weekend that more mods and Dark Lords than Faculty members posted in the Faculty thread over at CoE..... in fact those were the very days when the thread started its dive for the void.

So much being discussed...Such a limited attention span!!!!

I live about 5 miles from...Yes... Intercourse, PA. It's real and tourists flock there for the Amish ambience. We locals... I've been here three years so I CALL myself a local... mock the tourists because that is NOT real Amish Ambience! You have to go up the little side roads that wind for miles and miles through hills and farmland to get that.

The cable TV thing. What's the big deal? I've had cable for umpteen years yet I watch very little TV. I just can't vegetate in front of the tube that long. I watch mainly some news, the Weather Channel, Food NetWork and HGTV for short spells and of course LOTR DVDs and Lij movies, between sitting at the computer or otherwise dealing with RL and reading...lots and lots of reading. It's all a matter of self-control. If you don't want to watch it..don't... it's easy. Yet if something big is going on...IE..war,terrorist attacks, tornadoes, Elijah movies, it's there. You CAN watch if you so desire. It's also one way to stay in touch with what's happening around us.

I don't feel guilty about having cable TV and see no reason to. The problem comes when you don't regulate your viewing habits and lose track of your priorities.

OK ..end cable TV semi-rant. Not really mad just don't entirely get it. Don't want to watch, turn it off. Click! Gone!

And yes the link for Grey Panthers is lurking around in Hugs somewhere. I visit there from time to time but they are mainly Lij/comedy-centric and don't get into many deep discussions. So I mainly hang around KD...which is not afraid of either comedy or deep discussions.

Hello, everyone! I must say that this has been a *most* interesting geography lession. :D And to think that people claim that geography is dull!

The report from Iowa was very interesting, too, King L. My condolences for your loss. :( How nice that erendis got to make the pilgrimage with you. :)

I know that corner of Iowa, too, having worked there in another life. But can't say I was ever in Marion, at least to my knowledge. There are other celebs from Cedar Rapids, though: did you know that Grant Wood lived there? (the painter of the famous 'American Gothic' painting.) And that there is a quite nice museum of his works in Cedar Rapids? There's another reason to make the trek! But go in the summertime, when the corn is high and the grass is green...

Ohh, the Ed Burns bashing is getting hot! To think about a few years ago--about the time the Brothers Mullaney was released to critical acclaim--Burns was the Next Thing among writers/directors/auteurs! He has made the mistake however of making the same movie over and over again. :rolleyes:

And Maeg, it seems every time I visit imdb.com I get to see that picture of EW. Hmmm, is THAT why I keep going back there?

, I checked imdb.com, and surprise surprise, Barry the Irritating was played by our dear Ed

Thankyou Bridget!!! That makes it easier to visualise AW until I actually get my mitts on it. And yes, I do still want to track it down.

He (Burns) has made the mistake however of making the same movie over and over again.

Yes.

The cable TV thing. What's the big deal?

Some of us...err myself...have No Willpower Even Under Optimal Circumstances.:p Its easier for me just to not go there. Luckily for the shape of my eyes NZ free tv is so appalling I hardly watch it.

So when may we come visit NZ?
Just don't wear full black, sidle through corridors or carry a gun Ainon and I'm sure our customs officers will let you in ;). Well, almost sure.
February is a good time to visit either of the islands: hot settled weather. :)

Hugs to the Fac, see you soon(ish):Over and Out: Prim.

ps: Americans are very odd (re place names). Now I live in the sensibly named Whangarei.
I just love the idea of going to Hell. And coming back!!!:D

For the benefit of Prim and others who might want to know what Hell really looks like, check out this page with a few pictures from the place. I especially like the last one (Springtime in Hell). It's just the right time for those flowers now.

My google search for this also turned up various sites for hotel reservations in Hell, btw. :rolleyes:

http://home.online.no/~ptrptr/road/Hell_p.htm

No way this will get on-topic. So I'm rushing off! :o

Maeglian, Stephen King published "The Long Walk" under the pseudonym of Richard Bachman. I think here in the US, that book, along with three others he published under that name, were all republished under Stephen King or "Stephen King writing as Richard Bachman." But if you can't find "The Long Walk" in the "K" section of the bookstore, that may be why.

Oh, this talk of "Watership Down" is SO reminding me of sixth grade! I was utterly in love with Hazel, enough to make me wish I was a rabbit. And gosh, EW really would do the most amazing voice for Hazel, wouldn't he? Ah, that melodic English lilt....

And Stephen King is a "Watership Down" fan too...anyone remember that scene in "The Stand" when Stu is escaping from the hospital and is so panic-stricken he keeps telling himself not to "go tharn?" But he is a total and utter Tolkien fan, and I'll bet if I went through all of his books, I'd find a "Lord of the Rings" allusion tucked somewhere into many of them. My favorite is from "The Talisman: "Posters decorated the walls...Frodo and Sam trudging across the cracked and smoking plains of Mordor towards Sauron's castle." (Isn't it always such an odd thrill to see LoTR referenced somewhere...anywhere?)

Maeglian--Now we know the true meaning of the "snowball in Hell" cliché :).

Bridget--Ed Burns being kidnapped and mutilated by a fan is a Miserable idea :D. More seriously, Burns is not that bad. Making the same movie over and over again is the Noo Yawk Filmmaker's Bane (think Woody Allen). Of course, Burns' efforts lend themselves to mockery with amazing ease. (E.g., "He [Burns] could improve his credibility immensely by occasionally ceding the camera to one of his co-stars, but that is one sacrifice he seems unprepared to make."--David Kehr of New York Times on AW.) But then it's even easier to make fun of LOTR :p.

However do these places get their names??? We have a wealth of 'silly place-names' here in the UK. Wyre Piddle!!! :eek: (I kid you not):)

Just popped in here to post a link to a little gif I made courtesy (again) of Tg's screencaps. I can't contribute to the discussion of 'Chain of Fools' or 'Ash Wednesday' as I haven't seen them - language may be too strong for my delicate ears anyway.:eek: Tg was talking a while back about Elijah probably doing his own stunts in CofF, so I 'borrowed' the 'chase' caps from her website in order to demonstrate. Thanks again, Tg.:)

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/CofF.gif

We're all being very good and staying on-topic and not talking much Frodo in here. Now I love talking about Elijah - :) - but I do miss talking about Frodo.:(

Btw - I have actually ordered 'The Good Son' and 'Huck Finn' DVD's! At last!!! Should have them by next week. Whoo-hoo!:)

Bye.

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Ohh, the Ed Burns bashing is getting hot! To think about a few years ago--about the time the Brothers Mullaney was released to critical acclaim--Burns was the Next Thing among writers/directors/auteurs! He has made the mistake however of making the same movie over and over again. :rolleyes:
Yep, I was actually happy when I heard EW was making an Ed Burns movie, because I was sure it would be a good thing, get good distribution, etc. :rolleyes: I suppose my comments are still there--50 pages or so ago. Incriminating evidence!

Ed's "now showing" in Confidence, which has gotten some good reviews--even his acting has gotten good press! But that's all he does in it--act. Kind of supports my hypothesis that what gets him into trouble is trying to do everything himself with no checks and balances, and no one to point out his mistakes to him. (I very much agree with that reviewer from the New York Times that Brunhild quoted.)

Regarding sequels: For those who haven't had the chance to listen to the director's commentary on the DVD, Ed would like very much to make a prequel to Ash Wednesday showing the relationship between Whitey and Francis&Sean's father (and Whitey's apparent betrayal of him). Ed admits that would have to be a bigger budget movie, because all the sets would have to be "dressed" to look like the 1950's. Do you know what the title would be of such a movie? Good Friday! :eek: Be afraid... be very afraid... I can see the symbolism now... (But hopefully Elijah wouldn't be in it, so we wouldn't have any reason to watch it.)

-----------

I read Watership Down as soon as it was published--so long ago, I don't even remember when it was. I haven't read it since, but every time I'm walking at twilight and see a rabbit, I still think "silflay" :) -- (haven't seen the word for so long, I doubt if that's the correct spelling). I have very good memories of the book, but right now I've got too many other things waiting to be read to be able to go back and reread it anytime soon.

--------------

Originally posted by Prim
Some of us...err myself...have No Willpower Even Under Optimal Circumstances. Its easier for me just to not go there.
Uh, yeah, like each weekend when I start out saying, "I'm really going to get done!" and end up... uh, doing what I'm doing right now :o . (I'm not always on line but it seems as if I'm usually doing [i]something on the computer.)

The computer obsession has cut down on my TV viewing, though. Except for the morning news programs, I haven't had it on for months--they called me from the public TV station last week wondering why I hadn't sent in my annual donation, and I didn't know "pledge week" had taken place a month before--which means I haven't even been watching Dr. Who :eek: !!

In fact, my Sunday morning ritual of Today Show/local news hour/Meet the Press has just ended and I've turned off the TV for the day, which means I should also turn off the computer and go get something else done now... right now... yep... :rolleyes: right away... :p

As far as cable TV, there's also the fact that I have a lot of other uses for the $360/year (at least) that it costs here--without premium channels. For example--yes, Maeg, I'm still driving my dear little 1991 Escort, and I've made it clear to her that she has to keep going for a few more years before I can afford to buy a different car. She wasn't restored to her "former beauty" after the encounter with the deer, but her "innards" were fixed enough to get her running--which is all I really care about :) .

And, yes, I certainly remember coming home that week to a box full of PM's, and emails from people who wondered why I wasn't answering my PM's... {{{Faculty}}} {{{KD}}} and :k to all.

Edit: Just saw Blossom's post. I hope there were enough screencaps there to work with. The gif does a good job of showing something I was afraid didn't come across very well in the stills--how easily he gets back up after falling down (twice :p ).

And, Blossom, regarding Frodo--I hope to have the May additions to my website up by the 1st (well, I have to have something to keep me busy on the computer and away from more important things :rolleyes: ;) ), and included are three pages of FotR screencaps. Maybe there will be something to talk about from those. (I'm also going to be taking down "Two Ringbearers" and the miscellaneous "Packing" page as well as "Packing--That Shirt," in case anyone still wants to copy anything from them.)

Final Edit: Meet the Press has been over for an hour, and I really need to get off the computer... any moment now... right away.........

I'm definitely more addicted to the computer than to TV. I mean look at the number of my posts! And I'm not bragging.

One other thing with the cable TV...In my area and in many US areas you can't get any channels, local or otherwise, unless you have cable. So if you even only want to see the local news you need it. I guess I have developed TV self-control much better than computer self-control. I can leave the TV off most of the time till I need to check the weather or watch a good show. There ARE a few, you know! And my Mom who is up in years enjoys old movies and Law and Order. But it is possible to have cable and a life separate from TV!

OK back on topic... Lij is frequently on TV!!!!

Posted by tgshaw
Do you know what the title would be of such a movie? Good Friday! :eek:

Ed Burns has obvious difficulties finding fresh titles. There's a well-known British gangster movie The Long Good Friday from the early 80s. It's extremely violent and repulsive but its last few minutes contain some truly striking acting by Bob Hoskins as a mafia boss whose world's collapsing around him.

Now stumbling on topic:

Posted by tgshaw
The gif [by Blossom] does a good job of showing something I was afraid didn't come across very well in the stills--how easily he gets back up after falling down (twice :p ).

There seems to be a persistent opinion that EJW does fall down a lot. Has anyone researched this thoroughly? :p

Originally posted by Hobmom
One other thing with the cable TV...In my area and in many US areas you can't get any channels, local or otherwise, unless you have cable.
And then there are places where you can't get broadcast TV OR cable. Satellite's an option, and I guess they've finally allowed broadcast of "local" stations via satellite here, but it just ain't worth it. We own a television because a friend gave us an old one when he bought a bigger screen, but we've only ever used it to rent movies and watch them at home.

The internet is just as good for local weather as getting satellite news from Denver or Albuquerque or some other place where the weather is totally different from here... and the Weather Channel is useless for the Rockies. Just totally useless.

So tg, if you break down and get Starz!, are you willing to run your vcr every time Try Seventeen (or whatever they're calling it now) shows?

Mel

((((Mel)))) Still here, I see..... and I see your sig, too! :) I do hope the little one makes up his mind that the precisely right moment is very soon, now. :)


Elda, thank you for the King pseudonym info.
It spurred me on to do an updated net search; - and lo and behold! One of the national net stores now offers the 4-book compendium that includes this one. So my King-less days may be drawing to an end! :D (or rather; - :eek: :eek: )


Brunhild, I'm not certain the stumbles and falls of EJW in all his films have been researched to the max. I do remember though that back when FotR was still in cinemas, people went into the theatre with the express purpose of counting and documenting each of the "fabulous falls". A significant number it was too, I think.


Blossom, thank you for the gif. It really demonstrates the fabulous fall ability! :cool:

I'd like talking more Frodo too. Not that I do not enjoy general silliness (I guess my posts prove that on a daily basis :rolleyes: ) but Frodo and Frolijah are just ........ sigh.... THE topic, after all.

Actually, I have been wondering about one topic that belongs more to lit. than film, probably. I tried looking up quotes from Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond about how they know that Frodo was meant to have the Ring, and that he was the only possible and "chosen" Ringbearer, etc. I'm wondering exactly HOW they knew this and what they based their views on. A combination of character judgement, foresight, hope, interpretation of signs, and wisdom? Do you all think there would be any interest in discussing that over in lit, perhaps, or is it too narrow a topic?


:eek: ! Now quickly on to tg's site to secure the best 2 ringbearers and packing caps before they disappear!

Hobmom, I used to work in that area a long while ago. I'm guessing you are somewhere near Ephrata. (Another famous small town.) Ephrata Cloisters are there. Very interesting how they made there own paper back then. I remember once being aked by someone how to get to Paradise. At the time I didn't know it was a small town near Bird-in-Hand.


More IA trivia. Clear Lake, IA is where Buddy Holly and Richie Vallens flew from the night they died. I also liked the name of What Cheer. and have been to Winterset.

I also liked the name Oscaloosa, IA

And the Hospital EW was probably born in in Cedar Rapids was, I'm guessing St. Lukes since I don't remember if they had a second hospital or not. MY last child was born in St. Lukes and is about 5 years younger than EW. EW was probably still in Marion, Ia when we lived there. ('87-'90)

And if you like Jazz, Cedar Rapids has the best jazz station. KCCK 88.3 FM "Where you and jazz get together!" (http://www.kcck.org/) When you visit KCCK you can listen using there Live Webcast :k

I used to be a supporting member of the station when I lived there. And now that I know they do webcasting I will support them again! What more can you say for a jazz station like that! :cool:

Technically, shouldn't Good Friday be a sequel to Ash Wednesday and not a prequel, since Ash Wednesday happens before Good Friday? i think Burns outta aim for one of those artsy/fartsy indie series. Like Red, White, and Blue. Burns could do Ash Wednesday, Palm Thursday, and Good Friday (I know that's not exactly right...I could never keep track of the Catholic holidays) Maybe Burns is trying to cash in from those silly people who will mistake Good Friday as a sequel to "Friday" and "Next Friday. :rolleyes:

KL, what are you doing plugging a jazz station in an Elijah Wood thread? If you think Elijah really likes jazz, you ought to do more lurking before you post. :p

I wonder why Try Seventeen was demoted to the straight-to-video trash heap that clog up the shelves at Blockbuster. Wood and Potente and even Moore have all carried movies by themselves; what happened? Perhaps the movie is *shock* *horror* actually bad and nobody wanted to risk marketing $$ to promote it in theatres, even for limited release? Or maybe the stars themselves didn't want wide release? very strange...

According to imdb...Eternal Sunshine is now in post-production. According to RottenTomatoes, it is slated for limited release on Nov 14, 2003.

EDIT: There is a thread (http://www.rottentomatoes.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=210571) at RT started by someone who claims to have read the script for ESotSM. I didn't read the spoilers, but apparetnly it's very moving.

Hi, Faculty :)

I'm enjoying the funny town names. Blossom's post reminded me of another (somewhat Star Wars-y) place in England called Wookey Hole. :o

Add to the suggestive Pennsylvania names (those naughty Amish!) Mount Joy and Lititz. Just because it's cute, I like Pancake, PA; and believe it or not, there is an Olyphant, PA. :D

Hobmom, I got a quilt last year in Bird-in-Hand. If I'd known you were there, I would've waved. :)

I get the Starz! channel, so you'd better believe I'll be taping "All I Want" (silly name) in August. :cool:

Maeglian and mel, I love your sigs! :cool:

Blossom, very cool gif from Chain of Fools. Thanks! :k

erendis, I think it's Maundy Thursday and Palm Sunday. But just the thought of another movie as fuzzy and pretentious as Ash Wednesday is enough to give me the :eek: 's.

Just checked and the link for the ESotSM script is no longer working. I read some of it..Mostly Elijah's scenes and it is odd but moving and it has excellent critical 'buzz' from the likes of Harry Knowles who loves it.

Try 17 was almost always slated for direct to video/TV release.
This doesn't mean it's bad. Lot's of good films have gone this route. Either they get no theatrical release or maybe they are out for a week in NY or LA or Denmark.:rolleyes: I almost never rush to see interesting 'small films' because they will for sure be on Starz or HBO or Showtime almost before you can blink. Starz is very good with these films as is the Sundance Channel which shows...duh! movies shown at Sundance, and Independent Film Channel.

I saw a very good one...and one of Elijah's favorites...'Ghost World' awhile back. He had described Try 17 as being kind of a male version of Ghost World since that film is a quirky coming of age story from a female point of view. It WAS quirky, it WAS funny, and it WAS moving and had critical acclaim but no theatrical run that I ever noticed.

So just because a film goes straight to cable no longer means it's bad. Try Seventeen got only positive reviews at Toronto.

Still it will be nice to someday see a non-LOTR Lij film in an actual theater! I'm pretty sure ESotSM will be in theaters considering it is already being thought of as one of the late season Oscar contenders. And the scriptwriter was up for 'Adaptation' this year.

So if you cable holdouts get desperate .. you can send me tapes and I'll tape Try 17 for you. Though it should be out on DVD around that time or..hopefully???!!!..sooner.

And yep..King L.. I am right near Ephrata. That's where I go to Walmart.

Originally posted by erendis
Technically, shouldn't Good Friday be a sequel to Ash Wednesday and not a prequel, since Ash Wednesday happens before Good Friday?
Technically, yes... but, see, that would make sense :rolleyes: .

KL, what are you doing plugging a jazz station in an Elijah Wood thread? If you think Elijah really likes jazz, you ought to do more lurking before you post. :p
Didn't Elijah once say he likes Miles Davis :confused: ? I know that's not the same thing as liking jazz as a whole, but EW seems to have a fairly eclectic taste.

Originally posted by Hobmom
I saw a very good one...and one of Elijah's favorites...'Ghost World' awhile back. He had described Try 17 as being kind of a male version of Ghost World since that film is a quirky coming of age story from a female point of view. It WAS quirky, it WAS funny, and it WAS moving and had critical acclaim but no theatrical run that I ever noticed.
IIRC, it had a short run here in Omaha, but only in one theater that I know of. Speaking of movies based on "quirky" comic books, we have seen the last of that headless teenager thing... haven't we :eek: ?

Originally posted by King Lamoni
More IA trivia. Clear Lake, IA is where Buddy Holly and Richie Vallens flew from the night they died. I also liked the name of What Cheer. and have been to Winterset.
The ballroom in Clear Lake that turned out to be the final showplace for Buddy Holly, Richie Valens, and the Big Bopper was getting run down and having hard times a few years back--it's just not the kind of place people frequent much anymore. But now it keeps going by hosting a huge dance party every February on the anniversary of that last show. People come from all over, but I suppose that will only last until the end of "that generation." :(

I like What Cheer, too--and Iowa also has a Jolley. :)

Originally posted by Maeglian
Actually, I have been wondering about one topic that belongs more to lit. than film, probably. I tried looking up quotes from Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond about how they know that Frodo was meant to have the Ring, and that he was the only possible and "chosen" Ringbearer, etc. I'm wondering exactly HOW they knew this and what they based their views on. A combination of character judgement, foresight, hope, interpretation of signs, and wisdom? Do you all think there would be any interest in discussing that over in lit, perhaps, or is it too narrow a topic?
Sounds like an interesting discussion to me. A thread on it might not last forever, but "question" threads like that don't really need to. I'd agree with the list of factors you've written here, but there are a lot of things there that could be delved into--and IMHO it's especially worthwhile to put a topic like that in the Green Dragon as a lot of the people who frequent it don't come into the Community Cafe much and wouldn't see the discussion here. If you don't want to start a thread for just one question, the "Concerning Hobbits" thread is always available for thoughts involving one hobbit or many. (Actually, I think Gandalf's knowledge of hobbits was very important in that decision.)

Just had to share a new weird (Or just confusing) town name I learned tonight: Jupiter, Florida. Apparently it's where our local baseball team has spring training. Who knew?:rolleyes: Maeglian, thanks for the link to "Hell." Very amusing.:D

And I was reading the intro to Stephen King's collection "Night Shift" today, and he mentioned Tolkien or his works four times.:) Yeah, he's definitely one of us.:cool: (And Maeg, come on, Misery was one of my favorites!:p Although, yeah, I guess it did get a little violent towards the end...:o ;) )

For the longest time, my mom wouldn't allow us to have cable TV or video game systems in the house. (So we played computer games instead.:p ) It was only when the SciFi channel started showing "Quantum Leap" and "Babylon 5" that my dad decided we had to have cable - and of course, once we got it, there was no going back. I don't watch *too* much, though, just a few favorite shows - and of course, any movies with Elijah or Sean in them.;)

Maeglian, I don't have a thing to contribute to your lit question but would definitely be interested in following the discussion! I guess either the "Concerning Hobbits" thread or the "Frodo, Sam Gollum, and the Ring" thread would work - it's a different topic than what we were arguing about, I mean discussing;), over there but I still think it would fit.:) Or let us know if you make a new thread!:)

I *really* hope "Eternal Sunshine" gets into theatres (just how 'limited' is a 'limited release,' anyway??) - I agree that it would be really nice to see (non-LOTR) Elijah on the big screen for once.

Limited release generally means big cities like NY, LA, Chicago. Which stinks for the rest of us in the boonies. But it makes a film eligible for the Oscars. So if and I believe, when, ESotSM get's some nominations it will go into wide release. That happened in my local multi-plex with 'Adaptation'. I noticed it was playing there during one of my early viewings of TTT and thought ...Oh,Goody!! This time next year ESotSM will be playing here! It better be or they'll have one whingey Lij fan to deal with!

I figured "Ghost World" must have played in some theaters somewhere because Lij saw it in ...I suppose ...limited release in LA or someplace. The point was that even these small films end up on cable and...Whoohoo! We finally get to see them!

was that mel here? Still on your feet? Take care! :)

erendis, yes the preliminary buzz about Eternal Sunshine is quite positive. Harry K over at Aint it Cool wrote about the script for Valentine's day and said it was very moving. The writer is very hot right now, after the success of Adaptation and Being John Malkovich. I am very happy that EW is working with such interesting artists. Hobmom, I agree that the limited release gambit is intended to make the film eligible for Oscar consideration. But it doesn't preclude a nationwide release. We can hope, can't we? :)

Hmmm, as much as I liked "Shawshank Redemption" I don't think I am going to start reading Stephen King. After all, when could one ever stop??? The man is just sooo prolific!

Ghost World is well worth a trip to Blockbuster. It *is* quirky, though, and may not appeal to everyone.

As for TrySeventeen/All I want :rolleyes: The film was very positively reviewed, as Hobmom said, after its premiere in Toronto. I'm waiting for your review, Maeg, once it opens in Denmark. Did you say that would be next week? :cool:

Do you think it will be released on video/dvd after it shows up on Starz? Didn't they make a "making of" film for Try17? (At least that is what was claimed was going on when Elwood and Franka kept getting photographed together. ;) )

And "eclectic" is just the word for EW's music taste, as far as one can glean from published reports. Jazz is very definitely "on topic" for Mr. Wood.

Posted by Hobmom
Either they get no theatrical release or maybe they are out for a week in NY or LA or Denmark.

Or Russia: Try Seventeen opens there on May 1. Actually, Russia is still the largest country in the world (approx. 1.8 of the area of the US according to the CIA website :cool: ) so that's the widest release you can get :D.

I think Elijah listed "Kind of Blue" on a list of good albums. That doesn't make him a jazz snob, but a music-lover who's aware of the most-often-recommended jazz albums. It's kind of like someone listing the Beatles White Album to indicate they've got good taste in rock. So I think he's more of an "alternative" music snob than a jazz snob... but he's young. :D He may yet turn into a jazz afficianado with age...

Ghost World was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay, so it played someplace. It got a lot of press on NPR, like Adaptation did this year... but neither one played in my town. Kangaroo Jack, on the other hand... :rolleyes:

But Ghost World's in our local video store. Hubby really likes it and wants to get it on DVD. (I like it too, but not enough to watch it twice the first weekend we rented it like he did.)

Try Seventeen/All I Want didn't get that kind of buzz after the Toronto film festival... it had a decent review, I think, but not the kind of review that gets attention. I suspect it won't make it to my local video store (like about half of EW's other movies). I expect Eternal Sunshine to show up in my video store after I've heard all about it on Fresh Air, but I'm willing to bet it won't actually show in town unless it gets a Best Picture nom or acting noms.

Elijah's character in Eternal Sunshine sounds interesting, from the buzz about the script on Rotten Tomatoes. And -- good for Elijah -- very different from the other characters I've seen him play. :cool:

Contractions every 6-8 minutes for the last couple hours, which is why I'm up at such an absurd hour... can't sleep through them. Maybe in a few hours I'll be heading for the hospital...

Mel

Good luck, Mel!

GOOD LUCK, MEL!!!!!

WooHoo! Good Luck, Mel!

WooHoo is right, Mel! All last night I had dreams of Mel's delivery. The baby was 15 pounds and delivered in 3 hours and had extrememly huge brown eyes which later turned green and the kid was speaking in complete sentences and walking down stairs in a week. "Point me to the subway," he said.

I do hope that ESotSM is good, but I don't like all this Oscar buzz for it. EW can make all the great movies he wants, just NOT. THIS. YEAR. Dammit!

Excellent, Mel!! Bright blessings! :)

I'm not really here, but........

Good luck, Mel!!! Will be thinking of you and will be eagerly awaiting news!! :k

Lily hears the exciting news and absolutely must pop into the Faculty!

OMG Mel!!!!

Oh wow oh wow oh wow!!!!

Breathe breathe! ;):D

Lily bounces around excitedly because she knows Mel is in no position to. ;):D

Oh, I will be thinking only the best of thoughts for you today my dear!

Oh wow--another hobbitling!!!! :D:D:D:D

And LOL on the sig! :D

Good luck and best wishes, Mel! (Who's probably not reading this at the moment :) ).

But such a dedicated Faculty member--posting on all the recent discussion topics before heading to the hospital :cool: !

----Also a Happy Birthday to azalea :k :) wherever you are :( (not mad, just sad about not "seeing" you around lately)...

Well, the childbirth class advice for early labor was "continue normal activities..." :D Also, I'm waiting for the school's web-based grade worksheet to come on-line so I can submit my grades. Whaddaya mean that shouldn't be a priority this morning? ;) And the hospital said to stay home until contractions got to 3-4 minutes apart... it could take all day to get to that point.

But 15 pounds, erendis? :eek: :eek:

As for the Oscar buzz for Eternal Sunshine, honestly the best thing that could happen to Elijah would be if he had Oscar buzz for both RotK and Eternal Sunshine. Two very different roles, with RotK probably going to contain the scenes requiring the most powerful acting from him. If you want to see him get an Oscar at this young of an age, having two roles in one year with serious buzz around them is a good way to get the Academy paying attention to him.

Happy birthday, azalea!

Mel

That's great, mel! My best thoughts and my prayers are with you! And I hope it will be soon. ;) GOOD LUCK!! :) :k



Happy Birthday, azalea!



Blossom - thank you for a most excellent gif. Hope you'll enjoy Huck Finn.


Welcome to the Stephen King circle, Maeg - where LOTR and Watership Down are renowned and honoured as the classics that they are. ;) Btw, IMHO, well-adapted movies from Stephen King stories always bring out the best performances in actors: 'Shawshank Redemption'. 'The Green Mile', 'Misery', 'Stand By Me', 'Hearts in Atlantis' -- the last two featuring terrific performances from its young cast. I can still hope that a richly-drawn out (and carefully adapted) Stephen King role will come by Elijah's way some day. :) As for Stephen King's books - he doesn't just write horror; his non-horror work is some of the best stories I've read: 'Shawshank Redemption' being but one example. The great thing about his allusions to LOTR and even Watership Down is that he simply mentions them in the tale without taking time out to explain what they are, so if you're a reader of those stories too then you immediately know where he's at ... it's a nice feeling, like sharing a secret between reader and writer.

Thanks for the Watership reference from 'The Stand', Elda (and I so wanted to be a rabbit too ... :)) . I knew King had used that term tharn somewhere but I couldn't remember where and it was beginning to drive me crazy! It's fitting that it should have been Stu's line - Stu's one of my favourite King heroes and I was so thrilled when Gary Sinise played him in the mini-series. Gary Sinise being Elijah's co-star in 'The Witness' and thus bringing me back on-topic. :p

Actually Watership Down and LOTR have been paired up in my mind for a long time - in the animated Watership movie, Hazel was voiced by John Hurt, who was also Aragorn in Bakshi's LOTR. Oh, for a Watership Down that has Elijah Wood as Hazel .... I'd die of joy. My two favourite characters of all time, from my absolute most beloved books of all time, played by Elijah. As Maeg's pointed out, it's predetermined! El-ahrairah :cool:




exhumation and mauling of AW: I like your approach to stopping Ed's walk, Bridget dear. ;) Now, let's be sure that the Misery method follows book canon, rather than movie canon. Heh heh heh ...



Not that I'm trying to discourage you from joining us, Maeg. Not at all. :D althought the geek in me can't help but point out Richard Bachman's approach is quite 'different' than Stephen King's



Something about Elijah beating Orlando Bloom on some chart at BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/cbbcnews/hi/tv_film/newsid_2977000/2977073.stm


Brunhild - LOL about Russia's very wide 'Try Seventeen' release!

And now to go look at pretty Hell pictures ...

I don't have time to post right now, but why let that stop me?

Originally posted by erendis
All last night I had dreams of Mel's delivery. The baby was 15 pounds and delivered in 3 hours

:eek: :eek:

Absolutely NOT announcing that I'm in labor anywhere erendis might see it!

Mel,
I'm gonna wish on you a labor like my mom's - with her eldest she labored all morning, went to the hospital around noon, delivered within an hour. All her labors were easy and calm, but didn't last for hours and hours either. I'm hoping yours is the same. :)

Happy birthday, azalea!
Don't make us stalk you to the NZ thread with our birthday wishes. ;)

Sheryl

Originally posted by ainon

you immediately know where he's at ... it's a nice feeling, like sharing a secret between reader and writer.... That reminds me soooo much of the Lobelia knock on the door of Bag End in FotR. Newbies thought it was some random lady, but every single Tolkien fan in the world knew instantly who she was. :DFrom the BBC: Elijah Wood has sprung a surprise in your fave celeb vote this week, beating Rings co-star Orlando Bloom and Harry Potter himself, Daniel Radcliffe.
And another one of the fellowship joined his mates on the chart, with Dominic Monaghan replacing loser J-Lo in the top 10. Go Dom! :cool:

Watership Down and LotR: Frodo as Hazel, Sam as Acorn/Buckthorn, Merry as Blackberry, Legolas as Dandelion, Gimli as Silver, Boromir as Captain Holly, Aragorn as Bigwig, Theoden as Strawberry, Pippin as Fiver, Faramir as Blackavar (definitely!), Celeborn as the unintentional Bluebell, Arwen as Clover, Eowyn as Thuothinnang (sp?), Saruman as General Woundwart, Grima as Campion, the Witch-King as the White Blindness, and Sauron as the Black Rabbit of Inle. Bilbo would make a better El-ahrair-rah, with all the tricks he played in the Hobbit. I don't think Gandalf has an equivalent.

Mel is right that ESotSM would be good for Elijah's Oscar chances, with those two completely different roles. But the buzz would be more centered on Carrey. I am also worried about yet another "moving" script, released during the Look-at-Me-I'm Oscar-Bait period of the year, because then you have to start worrying about direction and screenplay and, and, Picture. :eek:

Happy birthday, and best wishes, Azalea ! :)


Erendis, I am speechless with admiration at your Watership / LotR character melding! :cool:

Yes, I was thinking that a remake of Watership Down could really be in order, what with the improved animation technology since 1978 and all, but trusty IMdB informs me a remake has already been made (for TV) as late as 1999. I've never heard of that new one, has anyone seen it? It features the once Hazel, John Hurt, as General Woundwort!! :eek:

Still........... Elijah's soft voice as Hazel........ (sighs and melts) :o

From ainon
exhumation and mauling of AW: This is getting both exciting and disturbing. Whatever will you do to the poor thing next ?
Just remember, once it's been staked through the heart and the head's been cut off, there will be nothing left except a small pile of dust........... so you may want to delay that approach for a little while yet. :D

So what's the difference between Stephen King and Richard Bachman, then? (Puzzled frown) Guess that's for me to find out, eh?

Now on topic for the annoying news: The Danish premiere of Try17 was pushed back one week till May 9. And then it was cancelled. The film suddenly does not appear at all in lists of upcoming movie premieres (And those lists stretch all the way to December 17. ) :( What that might mean, I do not know, but probably rigth to PayTV or video in Scandinavia, too. So Russia may end up boasting not only the widest but the only cinema premiere.

Oh well, never mind....... there's more important things to think about just now:
Best wishes and good luck once more, Mel !!

Originally posted by erendis
But the buzz would be more centered on Carrey. I am also worried about yet another "moving" script, released during the Look-at-Me-I'm Oscar-Bait period of the year, because then you have to start worrying about direction and screenplay and, and, Picture. :eek:
Yeah, but Jim Carrey's in, what, this year besides this... Bruce Almighty, according to imdb. He's got to live down stuff like Ace Ventura and Dumb and Dumber. Carrey might get credit for finally coming across as a good serious actor... but if he looks good, the rest of the cast will probably also get a lot of credit.

Elijah might actually get more credit for his acting in a movie with a relatively small cast than he does in LotR, where he's so much a part of an ensemble that he might never even get promoted as a possible lead actor Oscar contender.

As for the other Oscar buzz... well, there will be four other films nominated in all those categories, and every other film with those sorts of pretentions has got to generate as much Oscar buzz as possible. We can't expect as weak a field as the one FotR competed against every year! But RotK is a shoo-in for serious Oscar buzz... PJ just has to make a movie that deserves the attention that will be focused on it. And a better movie than either of the previous ones.

As for Watership Down... apart from having read both books around the same time, it will always be associated with LotR in my mind because there was a preview for it shown before Bakshi's LotR when I saw it in the theater...

Mel

Originally posted by erendis
That reminds me soooo much of the Lobelia knock on the door of Bag End in FotR. Newbies thought it was some random lady, but every single Tolkien fan in the world knew instantly who she was.
So many little nods like that in the FotR movie. Just a few examples: The "No Admission Except on Party Business" sign. The paths at Isengard laid out exactly as Tolkien describes them (when we get the "above" shot of Gandalf arriving). Sam's pots and pans :) dangling from his backpack. My favorite is the sight of Tol Brandir--it's not mentioned in the movie, so could have been completely left out, but there it is :cool: . Not so many examples in the TTT movie, IMHO, although I have heard that PJ & Co. searched hard to find a location for Edoras that looked just like the one in the book (set against mountains in the distance, etc.).

Mel is right that ESotSM would be good for Elijah's Oscar chances, with those two completely different roles. But the buzz would be more centered on Carrey. I am also worried about yet another "moving" script, released during the Look-at-Me-I'm Oscar-Bait period of the year, because then you have to start worrying about direction and screenplay and, and, Picture. :eek:
Regarding screenplay--does anyone know if ESotSM is based on a book/short story? All "we" have to worry about in screenplay competition are adapted ones, not originals. And it does have a very good screenwriter. (Wishful hallucination: ESotSM for best original screenplay and RotK/LotR for best adapted screenplay :eek: .)

Regarding Best Picture--I'd be very surpised if ESotSM won, although if it's incredibly good it might be nominated. When a movie's Oscar appeal depends on it being "moving," it seems it has to be based on a true story (no matter how far it strays from history) to get the votes. If anything, ESotSM sounds like a combination of fantasy and science fiction--neither of which are favorites of the Oscar voters. If RotK wins, it'll be because it has more going for it than "just" being moving.

For Elijah personally, I'd agree that having two good roles (one of them hopefully far beyond "good") out there at one time would be a positive thing. While the Academy plays the game of awarding Oscars to actors on the basis of specific performances, it really plays out more as if they're recognizing a body of work, which is why it can be so difficult for a younger person to win. So if some voters are reluctant to vote for Elijah because of the age thing, it might aid their consciences if they can see him in more than one role this year.

IMVHO, though, that "body of work" thing discriminates against younger actors, too--maybe someone should send them The Ice Storm (and The War, and Avalon, and Radio Flyer...).

I'd like so much to believe (against all reason) that EJW will get an Oscar nod for ROTK. With the fortunes of EJW's post-LOTR projects being what they are, us non-Tolkienite EJW admirers really need proof that filming & promoting that thing for five years has not been just a sacrifice to the fans :eek: :eek: :D.

Although not a Tolkienite myself, I'm an old nerd and as such have always been surrounded by LOTR addicts ;). Some of them are high school teachers. Below's an excerpt from an "essay" written by a seniour high student. The topic was "If I were the Ring, what would I promise Frodo at Sammath Naur?"

I'd show him the ... truth... Two hundred years after my destruction... Elves are gone... Aragorn is long dead... Middle-Earth is swarming with medieval men who eventually discover that the fabulously rich lands in the Shire are populated by tiny peaceful hobbits protected only by an edict of a forgotten king...

Probably, I'm getting old. But the new generation frightens me :D.

[delurk]

Just de-lurking to wish Mel an easy and safe delivery :k (She's certainly more lucid than I was when I was in labour with my first child! :D )

Also I've been enjoying the name place discussions and am proud to contribute probably the longest place name.....

http://www.wales.worldweb.com/Wales/LlanfairPG/SightsAttractions/SpecialtyAttractions/index.html?vid=15583369

And as this is totally off topic.....[/relurks]

Originally posted by Brunhild
I'd like so much to believe (against all reason) that EJW will get an Oscar nod for ROTK. With the fortunes of EJW's post-LOTR projects being what they are, us non-Tolkienite EJW admirers really need proof that filming & promoting that thing for five years has not been just a sacrifice to the fans :eek: :eek: :D.
Well, I don't have proof, but I think the "reunion" scene in AW is pretty good evidence that Elijah learned something during those 18+ months of shooting (besides the whole college-equivalent experience of being away from home for the first time, and earning enough money that he doesn't have to take any roles he doesn't want to take for the rest of his life).

Ang Lee and PJ are very different directors, but they seem to be the two that have been able to get Elijah to grow the most as an actor. Since he can do a "good" acting job without much effort, IMHO he needs a director who's not going to accept that. PJ's perfectionistic, "I didn't believe that--do it again" style, IMHO, was good for Elijah. PJ knew what he could do and didn't settle for less.

That scene in the back of the van in AW is less than a minute long, so it's not a lot to judge by, but IMO Elijah goes into emotional territory there that he'd never acted before--and without much direction (from the sound of the director's commentary--the acting quality didn't seem to get much of Ed's attention since he had everything else to worry about). It's probably the first time I've seen Elijah pull something that new out of himself without a strong director. My guess is that working with PJ taught him a lot about how to do that--so even if he doesn't win an Oscar for RotK, I don't think the entire LotR experience was a waste of time at all. So far, AW's the only post-LotR work I've seen--it'll be interesting to see if Elijah can continue being that self-motivating in the long run.

Probably, I'm getting old. But the new generation frightens me :D.
Hmmm... Did the student choose the topic? If not, I'd wonder more about the teacher who assigned it. It's definitely not a question that's going to have a "nice" answer--"If you were the epitome of evil power and were about to be destroyed, what would you be willing to say and do to save yourself?" :eek:

OTOH, "What did the Ring tempt Frodo with?" actually is one of those "forever questions" that there will never be an answer to--so Tolkienites have been discussing it since the time the book was published. The idea I've heard most often is the Ring offering Frodo the power to save Sam's life--it would have to be something that would tempt Frodo, after all.

And, actually, Frodo had already faced a good bit of that "truth" the student listed and still kept going--so IMHO the Ring would have to find something else if it's trying to discourage him. But the Ring doesn't normally act through discouragement, but, rather through desire for power, so unless it offered Frodo the power to prevent those things from happening, just showing them to him wouldn't do much good--the Ring wants Frodo to see it as useful, so he won't destroy it.

And from my experience, that student's negativity would be an exception--at least among Tolkien readers who are that age. The first message board I discovered when the news about the LotR movies broke was populated mostly by teenagers, and I was really quite impressed with them--and felt the future was in pretty good hands. Of course, they were all Tolkien readers :p (no "movie fans," as there weren't any movies yet ;) ). Here's a little essay I haven't linked to in a long time that's from that "era"--not directly applicable, maybe, but, hey it matches my sig :) : Frodo Lives--Sweet! (http://members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id81.htm)

P.S. No news from Mel for awhile? Hoping that's good news :) .

Ack! Mel, I see you are still logged on here..... the little one has decided to take his time, has he?

Lily and Quicksilver, nice to see you popping in here! :)

Thanks for that Welsh name, Quicksilver; - it almost defies belief! And moreover, Wales made me think of

((((Meryl)))) :k


Brunhild, I think that student was (frighteningly, depressingly) realistic, actually....... As tg says, it's been debated over and again what exactly the Ring offers Frodo at the end. It's often been said that the Ring doesn't have much to offer since the main thing Frodo wants is to save the Shire, and it's the destruction of the Ring that will bring that about, not the opposite. But this student bases his/her answer on what humans have shown themselves capable of in the past..... and indicates the destruction of the Ring soon would mean the destruction of the Shire at the hands of greedy humans...... Frodo claiming the Ring could be a means to prevent that. Thinking about the fate of the Middle American native cultures, for instance, or what the vikings were up to in Ireland, - it's hard to argue this isn't a likely case, :( although far from being in line with Tolkien's view of the Gondorians.

I'd also give that student additional "painful realism" points for displaying such an implied clear understanding of the distinction between Hobbits and Ewoks.

:eek:

Yes, the last there *was* a joke! :o

From Sheryl
Absolutely NOT announcing that I'm in labor anywhere erendis might see it! But you have likely chosen such a perfect timing if you *really* don't want that announcement to register. Just pop in here and start your announcement with: Just came back from seeing RotK, and I'm sorry to say that I think Elijah overplayed Mt. Doom woefully, and btw, I'm about to...., etc.
You'll have people pouncing on that first part so fast most will never even get to the end of your post. :eek: :D


About EJW and Oscar possibilities, I don't think there are any. I'd love nothing more than to be proven wrong, but...... he'll simply have too little screen time in RotK however much his acting shines.

Nevertheless (Cue sinister conspiratory music) ........... *could* the strangeness of his recent movie carreer be a clever Oscar-winning plot? Think about it. Oscar is awarded for a strong performance, but also for long time achievement in previous films (which fits EJW), contacts in the Industry (fits him too, he's acted against everyone you ever heard about, almost), *and* because of "if he doesn't get it now he'll never get it" kind of thinking. Perhaps that's the reason he acts in obscure films that tend to mysteriously disappear? It's so the Academy will look back on his long carreer and his excellent RotK acting and conclude that it's simply now or never! If "Eternal Sunshine" fares as did Try17 before it, contrary to all expectations, we may have proof!!

:D :D :D

tgshaw--Thank you for the comforting arguments :). And yet the notoriously difficult Apocalypse Now wrapped in 16 months, there was no press marathon afterwards, and noone was calling the 5'7" Martin Sheen "diminutive" fgs. :rolleyes:


Hmmm... Did the student choose the topic?


There were two other topics but more than half of the students chose that one. (As people with acting experience know, evil parts are way easier :D.) I should add that all of them liked the book :). And ...erm... Maeglian has just summed it all up for me :cool:.

I agree that the future is in very good hands, though :) .

Edit: Maeglian, your last message proves that not only Hell but the entire Norway is very cool :D :D.

If the student has anything really wrong, it's the 200-year timeframe. Middle-earth is pre-history, so there won't be a medieval civilization for quite some time. Aragorn dies 120 years after the Ring is destroyed--I'm not sure how long his line continues, but for the kingship to be completely forgotten in the second generation seems kind of rushed.

Frodo already knew very well that the Elves were leaving. I think one of the hardest things for him must have been knowing that he'd be responsible for the fading of Lothlorien as well as the other workings of the Three Rings. But when he asks Galadriel about this, she tells him that her desire is that "what should be shall be," and that includes the departure of the Elves. So, not that it isn't bittersweet, but it would hardly be something the Ring would have to "reveal" to Frodo--he's already faced it.

And hobbits, of course, have been too smart for us big folk to eradicate. They no longer have the Shire as a recognizable country (although that's still the area where they live), and they're smaller than they used to be, but Tolkien says they're still around--and very able to hide from us, since they can hear us coming a mile away :) . When you consider that it's been thousands of years since the time of LotR, that's not a bad survival record (but, then, I'd expect no less from hobbits).

Originally posted by Brunhild
tgshaw--Thank you for the comforting arguments :). And yet the notoriously difficult Apocalypse Now wrapped in 16 months, there was no press marathon afterwards, and noone was calling the 5'7" Martin Sheen "diminutive" fgs. :rolleyes:

I don't think you can compare Apocalypse Now to Lord of the Rings. AN took 16 months to wrap because it was plagued with catastrophes, including the unexpected heart attack of its young star, Martin Sheen. LoTR took 16 months to wrap because the filmmakers were doing something unprecedented: simultaneously filming three movies based on an epic piece of literature. The fact that they managed to do it in only 16 months, and do it as well as they have, is cause for notice and more than justifies any press hype that surrounds it. Other factors contribute to the media interest in LoTR: that these movies are based on a book that, until now, was considered "unfilmable," that New Line Cinema was willing to bankroll such a massive endeavor and put it in the hands of a relatively unknown director working with a cast that had not one single big-name actor in it...and now that the first two films have grossed close to $2 billion, expect even more press frenzy surrounding RoTK.

I think all of this is absolutely stupendous for Elijah Wood, and a blessing to his fans, old and new. Because of "that thing," Elijah's been able not only to have top billing in one of the most critically-acclaimed and money-making film trilogies of all time, but also to showcase his amazing talent in an unspeakably demanding role. And those among us who may not have followed his career up until now have been able to discover him as an actor (and an absolutely beautiful example of God's creation!).

As for being labeled "diminutive," well, I'll admit, that talking about him like he's a hobbit definitely gets old after a while, but by Hollywood leading man standards, he really IS well...diminutive. Actors like Martin Sheen, Alan Ladd and Mel Gibson are not tall, but they are not slight, the way Elijah Wood is. Michael J. Fox is another actor who is both short and slight of build, and is often referred to as such, even though he never played a 3-foot-6 character. And there are worse things to be called than diminutive. I mean, jeez...the press still insists on mentioning Jennifer Lopez' rear end, as if she's the first woman in history ever to have a booty on her.

What the Ring offered Frodo? I know in HoME, Tolkien sketched a bit in which he shows us a glimpse of that, and it was very close to Sam's vision (minus the gardening aspects). I think that Tolkien very wisely scrapped the whole idea of letting us see Frodo's temptation. I sometimes I imagine that the reality of Frodo's torment may have been so wrenching that even Tolkien chose not to write of it.

And I wouldn't worry too much about the next generation if all they're exhibiting is a certain perplexing level of gloom and pessimism. That's what young people do! I get far more depressed by those 16-year-old fanfic "writers" who obviously have at least 10 years of formal education behind them and still haven't learned the most rudimentary aspects of grammar, spelling or punctuation, don't even coming close to understanding what a "story" entails, and are self-absorbed enough to think that complete strangers looking for good stories based on Tolkien's universe want to read about how much they hate their homeroom teacher. Sigh.

Good luck, Mel!!!:) :)

GOOD LUCK MEL!

andHAPPY BIRTHDAY AZALEA I think that should be 'Happy belated birthday' now.

Was that Luthiea I saw staggering around a couple of pages back - blotto?! You should be ashamed of yourself!;) :) :D Although I have been known to partake of a glass or three myself from time to time. Hic...:) Hope you didn't suffer too much the next day, Luthiea.

Maeglian, that sounds like a good subject for discussion - How did Gandalf, Elrond & co KNOW that Frodo should be the Ringbearer? Are you starting a new thread somewhere for that? I'll keep my eyes peeled.

Regarding Elijah's chances of Oscar success. I tend to agree with you, Maeg - I have a horrible feeling he won't be in the race, THOUGH HE ABSOLUTELY DESERVES TO BE. I would be beside myself with joy if Elijah actually won an Oscar, especially for his Frodo, who in my eyes is the most heart-breakingly moving, tragic, angst-ridden - not to mention beautiful - creation ever to have graced the big (or small) screen. But then I'm biased - towards Frodo AND Elijah, so I would say that! Well... it's the truth!

Tg - I used all of your caps for the 'CofF chase' gif. Thanks again. I'm working on some FOTR caps at the moment. I did over 300 yesterday - of the Caradhras scenes (I don't think deluby has covered these) and am now in the process of saving them as JPEG files, which seems to take forever. Then it's whittling them down to a manageable amount of frames to produce decent gifs that won't take up all my space at IM. Who needs a life anyway?

Sorry I have nothing more interesting to contribute. I'm counting the days until my 'Huck Finn' and 'Good Son' DVD's arrive. Why oh why does the time D...R...A...G so much when you're looking forward to something?

Bye. :)

I would be beside myself with joy if Elijah actually won an Oscar, especially for his Frodo, who in my eyes is the most heart-breakingly moving, tragic, angst-ridden - not to mention beautiful - creation ever to have graced the big (or small) screen. But then I'm biased - towards Frodo AND Elijah, so I would say that! Well... it's the truth!

Hi - I have never posted here before though long have I lurked:)
I felt I just had to comment on this quote because every word could have been me speaking - it describes exactly how I feel about Frodo and Elijah. It all began for me on 26 Jan 2002 - my first viewing of FOTR. At that stage I had just started reading the book and was about a third of the way through. I adored the film and was captivated, enchanted and totally smitten by Frodo. I'd never heard of Elijah before (he wasn't so well-known in the UK). I couldn't wait to find out all about him and had quite a shock when I discovered he's not actually English - what a brilliant job he did with that accent, and being English myself I feel I'm in a good position to judge. I've never looked back since - Elijah, Frodo and LOTR has become a massive part of my life, something I at first tried to keep secret due to my greatly advanced age, but now my family knows and accepts.

Re the Oscars, I feel it will be nothing less than tragic if his brilliant achievement is completely ignored. I do believe that if they take the whole trilogy into account he may well stand a chance, but if its just for ROTK then sadly its very unlikely as he wasn't even nominated for FOTR where he had so much more screen time.

Now I have taken the plunge perhaps I might emerge from my lurking-place a little more often.;)

How's mel doing? :)


Welcome to the Faculty, shireling! A very nice name, and your biased opinions about Elijah and Frodo will always find a happy and understanding audience here. ;) I'm glad you've delurked to join us. :k

Well, (reduced) time an actor has on-screen doesn't stop him from winning any awards, or prevent the character from gaining life-long notoriety and fame. I don't have the figures, but Anthony Hopkins never actually spent that much time as Hannibal Lecter in 'Silence of the Lambs'. Marlon Brando didn't exactly hog the screen for 'The Godfather' either.

'course if the Academy decides to do what Maeg advices, then that'd be something to talk about for a long, long time! LOL. But there's nothing odd about Elijah's current career trajectory either, IMO. There aren't many actors out there who could match Harrison Ford's luck in movie blockbusters ... even then we have to keep in mind that Ford did do 'Hanover Street'. :p

Btw, Maeg, since you asked -- Richard Bachman has a darker way of looking at things. Compared to Bachman, King is like a repository of glad tidings and hope. I mean that as a compliment to the man. ;)


-----


Favourite little 'just between you (the viewer) & me (the filmmakers)' nods in TTT have to be the moonset over Gondor, and the Glittering Caves. Favourite for FotR: the trolls, just looming there in the background - almost impossible to notice if one is too busy trying to squint and spot where Frodo's lying. :D


-----


erendis ... your Watership Down/LOTR match is so so :cool:

Welcome, shireling! How very kind of you to stress EJW's accent ;).

If EJW is neglected at the Oscars, we shall absolutely have to get Oscaloosa, IA renamed after him :p :D.

I think it's my turn to advertise a book that is but loosely related to our topic ;). IIRC, EJW has named Jane Eyre among his favourite books. Everyone who shares his enlightened opinion may try The Eyre Affair by Jasper Fforde (the spelling is OK).

Ainon--LOL at "Frodo gaining the notoriety and fame of a Hannibal Lecter or Vito Corleone" :D

Welcome, Shireling! Please stay delurked and join the discussion now that you've taken the plunge. :)
I'd never heard of Elijah before (he wasn't so well-known....) (snip) I've never looked back since - Elijah, Frodo and LOTR has become a massive part of my life. Hey, sounds eerily like the story of my recent life!

As a welcome gift, and an entirely appropriate (not to mention good-looking :o ) comment to the Oscar discussion, this one fits the bill exactly (if you just remove that strange and totally unneccesary word "supporting", that is).

http://www.maggiebear.crosswinds.net/fellowship04/lotr036.jpg
Picture courtesy of Maggiebear.crosswinds.net

Brunhild - Oscaloosa - LOL. :cool: and :rolleyes: ! Let's hope that one gets named after someone else! I could even name some worthy candidates......

ainon, thanks for the Backman info. So I'm actually starting with the dark side of the authorship...... :eek:

:o I have actually seen Hanover Street. It sure didn't make a lasting impression, though. HF in a role where he had to impersonate some German officer during WW2 and was in love with some married lady, I think..... Trust me to see the none-important films. Oh, but I *have* seen Blade Runner too. One of the really great SF films.


Blossom, I wouldn't dare make a thread of my own, I think! :eek:
But I'll get arond to posting the question in one of the existing threads. Problem is, I've realized I'm really looking for film Gandalf and Galadriel's motivation, in expressing statements uttered much earlier in the story and partly by others (ie Elrond) in the book, and so all the explanation would have to come from the book. But in this question I don't know whether the book and film are all that compatible. Hmmm.... I'll get around to it eventually.


Anyone got news about Mel, please let us know !

Maeglian--Are you sure Ford was a German officer in Hanover Street? It should have been Hannover Straße then :p.

And just to show the newcomers how insanity can prevail at the Faculty :cool: , the following companion pic to Maeglian's poster ("Medusa" by Michelangelo Merisi da Caravaggio):
http://www.artehistoria.com/genios/jpg/CAC02340.jpg

Edit: There is an internet site where you can colour Caravaggio's "Medusa" yourself. For instance, make the eyes blue :D ;). I couldn't make the link work so anyone interested might simply do a Google search for "caravaggio medusa" ;).

As a welcome gift, and an entirely appropriate (not to mention good-looking ) comment to the Oscar discussion, this one fits the bill exactly (if you just remove that strange and totally unneccesary word "supporting", that is).

Thank you so much for that - its greatly appreciated and so beautiful. But "supporting" - whatever were they thinking of?!:mad:

Brunhild, it seems to me that picture would be perfect for a fanfic entitled "If Frodo Had Kept the Ring" :eek:

"Six degrees of separation" came to my mind today: this year's Tribeca Film Festival (where Ash Wednesday was premiered last year) is offering a film called Ash Tuesday, and one of its stars is Janeane Garofalo, EW's shrink in Bumblebee. :cool:

((((mel))))

:eek: I was thinking almost the same, Meryl. Minus the snakes, that Medusa could be an impression of the Ring-claiming moment at Mt. Doom! :eek:


Brunhild, far as I can recall, Ford was playing an American officer who had to impersonate a German one in order to save the husband of his girlfriend. The script had him speaking little or no German so he went around grim and silent, sporting that standard dire facial expression of his. This is as far as I can recall now.... I could well be wrong.


Yes, that "supporting" actor thing has always been a pet peeve of mine. Just because he's young, they promote the main character (of FotR, at least) as "supporting"! All or nothing, I say! :rolleyes: Which probably means nothing, then.......


Another person who should receive an Oscar if there was *any* justice is Ngila Dickson. I stumbled across this neat site which has researched many of the LotR costumes in depth and with many pics and descriptions of all the costume details, it's wonderful. The details of costume after costume are simply beautiful. The way each culture has its distinguishing costume features....... Trimming, beadwork, patterns, quilting, fabrics, - simply exquisite! Give Ngila an Oscar!

The site's done great work documenting Arwen's various gowns, for instance. (Perhaps slightly more so than Frodo's costumes :D ) I love the LotR costumes no end. But of course that's really off topic here, so......... I'll leave a link to the site in case anyone else is interested in having a look. http://www.alleycatscratch.com/lotr/

Go to Bulletin Board for announcement! :D

Congratulations, Mel!!

:k to you and hobbitling!

Now get some sleep, you are going to need it! :)

{{{Mel, hubby and hobbitling}}} Congratulations to you! Your babe is gorgeous!

Maeglian, what have you done?;) That link you posted to the LOTR costume site sucked up a HUUUUGE amount of last evening. Even now, I hear its call.....:D

Seriously, Ngila Dickinson is a goddess of costuming. What a fantastic achievement she has created out of her extraordinarily talented brain. I absolutely could not believe she didn't win an Oscar for FOTR and wasn't even nominated for TTT. Whatever are those people who vote on such things doing??? If she doesn't win for ROTK it will be a travesty to beat even Elijah Wood's inevitable non-nomination. (I dare not even contemplate his likelihood of actually winning--and I'm NOT talking about SUPPORTING actor here, FGS.)

But as has been said before, the world is a strange place indeed.:rolleyes: A fact that makes me take time every day to:

Thank Eru for the Faculty! The past few pages have been so wonderfully on- AND off-topic.:p Place names and AW-burying/exhumation and Watership Down, which somehow never came across the intermittently functioning radar screen of my existence but which oversight must be soon corrected...anyway, it's classic Faculty, and delights me to no end!

Last but not least: Welcome, shireling! Such a lilting, lovely name. And I can already tell, you belong here!:) :) :)

Woo-Hoo! Congratulations, Mel!
And what a wonderful beautiful little hobbitling he is, too......
Welcome to the world, little one! :k

Oh yes, Goldie, I went back to that costume site afterwards and had a thorough look at the Frodo costumes, in all the details and descriptions and pictures. Wonderful stuff. :)

Congratulations, Mel!!!

The baby is sooooo cute.:)

Maeglian, thanks for the link to that costume site - I've barely started looking at it yet, but I love it already.:cool:

Originally posted by Brunhild
Edit: There is an internet site where you can colour Caravaggio's "Medusa" yourself. For instance, make the eyes blue . I couldn't make the link work so anyone interested might simply do a Google search for "caravaggio medusa" .

Well, I couldn't resist.:o

http://thepusherrobot.perlmonk.org/chubs/images/other/frodusa.JPG

Note the Ring and Eye of Sauron symbolism.;) And the gap between the front teeth.:p

Congratulations, Mel! A stout little fellow he is, too. :) :cool:

Bridget--What can I say? You've placed Beauty in the Eye of the Beholder :D.

http://www.click-smilie.de/sammlung/party/party020.gif
CONGRATULATIONS MEL HE IS BEAUTIFUL!!

(welcome to chaos)
:)

My contribution to the odd place name discussions: Pratt’s Bottom, (which is a small village in Kent, in England. I’ve been there. It’s actually quite a pretty place.)

Oh, and another should-be Oscar-recipient is Howard Shore for the TTT score. I know the Academy changed the rules, so that he is no longer eligible, but honestly, he has composed an amazing suite of music. And to keep this on-topic…it complements Elijahs’ performance as Frodo perfectly!

{{{{{Faculty}}}}}
{{{{{{{mel and hobbitling}}}}}}}

CONGRATULATIONS MEL AND HUBBY!!! :) :) :) Hope you are all doing OK.

estella - love your little smilies. Any luck with the piccies yet? Oh, and I totally agree with you about Howard Shore's score - It's simply superb.

Shireling - welcome to the Faculty. Sounds like you and I (and a lot of others who frequent this place) had the same experience when we first set eyes upon Frolijah. I SO agree with you about Elijah's English accent - for me it was just perfect. Glad your family has accepted your obsess... er interest in LOTR/EW. Mine just think I'm barmey - and I'm no spring chicken either! Don't you go lurking again - stay with us. :)

I'm very happy today as my 'Huck Finn' and 'Good Son' DVD's dropped through the letterbox this morning.:) :D Looks like I'll be glued to the TV for the next couple of evenings. Oh well!

Maeg - love the 'For your consideration' pic. Best Supporting Actor indeed! :eek:

I'm off to take a peek at Mel's little one :k and Maeg's costume site.

Bye.

Gee, it's been awhile. Really, really busy week at work--which means a tightly-wound, ready-to-explode-at-any-time boss. And by the time I get home, I'm ready to fall into bed.

But I had to stop in and say Congratulations to Mel and family--or the new addition will be walking before I get around to it!! Picture is very, very :cool: !

And welcome to shireling--a lovely name, indeed. :) I always appreciate it when someone from Britain compliments Elijah's accent :) . [And then I always end up throwing in the comment that after seeing Robbie Coltrane in Huck Finn, I couldn't believe it when I heard him using his "real" voice--I was sure he was American!]

Congratulations, Mel! Awww ... baby's so adorable! :k

Before Elve renovates, this quick cute little pic would be just right for this lovely occasion.

http://www.frodoandsam.net/film/gallery/images/elijah/elijah-117.jpg


estella -- :cool: smilies. Wise words there too, about Howard Shore. And ditto what's been said about Ngila!

Blossom, looking forward to hearing what you think of Huck Finn and Mark. Bridget ... your artwork is ... erm ... colourful ... :p :D

Hi Meryl! That's a very interesting six degrees of separation all right. So it's been a year since that Tribeca Film Festival, which Elijah didn't attend, because he'd rather stand in line for Attack of the Clones. In hindsight, we now know that that was a choice for the lesser of two evils ... ;) :D

I watched X2 last night -- we're allegedly among the first to see it in the theatres because the movie opened here two days before the US premiere. Dear New Line representative, I'm sure you're paying attention to our posts here, so I trust you will take note of this particular marketing strategy and do what is necessary to ensure that RotK will likewise enjoy an early premiere in this part of the world as well when the time comes. Thank you. It's worth noting that there were shows scheduled every 15 to 20 minutes, and the theatre I was in was packed - SARS wasn't keeping people off the mutants. ;) I guess the summer blockbuster season has begun, and RotK had better be prepared to make a shameless amount of money to leave the competition choking and gagging in the dust this year. It was nice seeing Ian McKellen enjoying himself as the bad guy, and a relief to see that Halle Berry was capable of keeping her clothes on, but the real reason I'm rambling off-topicly is because I have to confess: my need to see Frodo on-screen again is becoming urgent. I'm becoming delusional. :eek: Everything is starting to revolve around a certain someone about whom we remain on-topic. See, there was a backlit shot of Wolverine standing in manly mutant fashion up on a snowy slope ... and the thought that crossed my mind as I contemplated Hugh Jackman was "Hmm, give him a proper shave, comb the hair down a bit, give him a cloak, lose a few centimetres, and he could be Elijah Wood's stand-in." :o


Thanks for the costume link, Maeg. I'm gonna check it out now. And I will hold you responsible for any obsessive addictions that develop!

I'm a very happy Faculty groupie today, because I got a lovely package in the mail today with an awesome Star Trek address sticker on the outside and Chain of Fools on the inside!:D :D :D Thank you Sheryl!:k :k And the cloud picture is lovely.:)

ainon - that is such an adorable picture.:)

Welcome, shireling!:k

Bridget - your Fro-dusa, all I can say is: :eek: !


And how nice that both you and Blossom will be seeing new EJW films and (hopefully) giving us your views on them. :)


ainon, I'm totally with you on the need to see Frodo on screen (or in pics, or something!!! ) again. And the strangest vaguely LotR-related things lead the thoughts back to Frodo. Take various costume comments on the costume site, for instance. Here are some snips of what they have to say about Arwen's flashback ("This is a dream") gown: Light purple gown. Less a dress and more lingerie. The gown is fitted but by no visible method. (snip) The fabric is very shear because even with two layers her figure silhouette can be seen. The fabric drapes like silk. This of course made me think of Erendis' comments re. kissy Arwen, and how she stole precious screen time from Faramir. And so of course I think that she stole time from Frodo as well. Frodo and Faramir scenes: What I really, really want to see much more of in the TTT EE DVD, y'know?

And they've gone in deep research mode on the slightest of costumes, too. Have any of you noted the following about Gollum's loin cloth, for instance? (I hadn't.) There is a tiny pouch on his right side where he can hold the ring. It is held close with just a bit of bone. But this, of course, having to do with the Ring, *also* made me think of Frodo. I realized that Gollum's costume with the Ring-pouch, would really be perfect for the following scenario that Meryl Marie posted over in "the winner is" thread in the TTT forum some time back:
People's (My)-Choice-Candidates-for-Costume-Switching Award

Frodo and Gollum
:D :o :D

Very clearly, unless we soon get some new Frodo info, pics or clips, I *will* become delusional (or worse) too! So I'd better stop. :o

Hi everybody! I'm back and I missed all of you so much...
My congratulations to Mel!

Now some news from Russia... "Try Seventeen" starts in Moscow theatres on May, 22. When I see it, I'll tell you my opinion...

But the two big Russian movie magazines already published their reviews on this movie - and both are good (4 stars from 5)! They say the movie is well done, clever, with living characters, good dialogues and sense of humor. AND - with good acting by all three leading actors, especially ElWood. In one article it was said about him that this movie is worth to see at least because of Wood's sincere acting and that at present moment he is one of the most intelligent actors in Hollywood's young generation...

Sounds encouraging, right?;)

Maeglian, LOL that you remembered that costume award I posted. :D I still want to see Frodo in the loincloth, but Gollum sporting the One Shirt and Tweedy Coat? Too great and terrible to imagine!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Rikka, that is great news about those reviews of "Try 17." Obviously, Russian critics have excellent taste. :cool:

ainon, that "Little Rascals" pic of EW is so adorable. :k

Welcome back, Rikka! We've been missing you and your native competence in all things Russian ;).

Nice to know that Russian film critics have been complimentary about Try 17 in general and EJW in particular :cool:. OTOH, it seems that the premiere has been delayed again :o.

The disturbing vision of Frodo wearing a loincloth requires shock therapy in the form of another Renaissance painting ("Saint Sebastian" by Guido Reni--the artist of "Joseph and Potiphar's Wife"):
http://www.artehistoria.com/genios/jpg/RES01059.jpg

Just wanted to pop in and say thanks to Rikka for posting the reports from Russian movie critics about Try Seventeen. I am glad that some places on the planet are going to see the film as it was meant to be seen. Ahh, the perils of Independent filmaking.

And in my excitement to welcome Mel's little tax deduction, I forgot to say hello to shireling. Don't make yourself scarce, now. :)

And here we are: so desperate for Frodo/Elwood news that we are combing images of Frodo's wardrobe and imagining horrific scenarios like Gollum wearing the One Coat :eek: . Is New Line going to take pity on us soon?

:D

Originally posted by peaceweaver
thanks to Rikka for posting the reports from Russian movie critics about Try Seventeen. I am glad that some places on the planet are going to see the film as it was meant to be seen.

Is New Line going to take pity on us soon?
:D

Thanks from me too, Rikka. :) :) :)

As for New Line: I think they are currently busy promoting their upcoming film "Bad Boys 2". :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

See, Rikka, THIS is what we get here in the US theaters: bad sequels to bad movies, instead of 'Try 17'.

Where's that barfing smiley? ;)

Originally posted by Rikka
... at present moment he [Wood] is one of the most intelligent actors in Hollywood's young generation.

Rikka, did the critics use the Russian word "intelligentnyj"? If so, then it's a massive compliment indeed. As far as I know, this word means much more than the English "intelligent." Applied to an actor, it suggests an ability (and a willingness) to deal with the more subtle aspects of the human condition . :cool:

Distributors elsewhere are probably afraid of the North syndrome: Promoting a movie that is too smart for Roger Ebert himself :D :p.

Originally posted by Brunhild
Rikka, did the critics use the Russian word "intelligentnyj"? If so, then it's a massive compliment indeed. As far as I know, this word means much more than the English "intelligent." Applied to an actor, it suggests an ability (and a willingness) to deal with the more subtle aspects of human condition . :cool:

Brunhild,
I understand what you are speaking about... ;) No, they use another word -"óìíûé", that is closer to the meaning of an English word "intelligent" (or clever). (By the way, are you a Russian speaker, too?)

But this is also not bad, when critics name "clever" an actor who is only in his early 20s...

Rikka--Thanks for the explanation! Ah, wishful thinking :). I'd so apply that Russian term to EJW :p.
I wouldn't call myself a speaker of Russian although I can read some (e.g., the word "umnyj" in your post ;) ).

Don't worry, Brunhild, one day ElWood will be named "an intelligent actor" exactly in the Russian meaning of this word! ;) I'm sure in it...

Even now, when I read or listen his interviews he seems to be "intelligentnyj" person for me - but still deep inside. From outside sometimes there are still cursing, stupid jokes and all other mess of this kind so appropriate to his early age.

:eek: I think I have developed chronic compulsive posting syndrome, or something! I can't log on here and read the posts without making connections, getting ideas, and wanting to comment.......


Rikka, thank you so much for the information and reviews from the Movie Magazines. You are actually planning to go watch the film in the cinema, I take it? I'm curious as to the likely age distribution of the audience in Moscow..... would grown-ups go to see such a film or will it be nearly all teenagers?
(I know if it appeared in cinemas here, the audience would almost certainly be very strictly teenage, just like it also is for most SF/fantasy type movies. LotR is the one major exception to *that* rule.)


Brunhild, I think we've come full circle now that our discussions have taken us via completely different routes back to St. Sebastian. That gives me the excellent opportunity to post the picture that had us discussing St. Sebastian imagery in the first place, months and months ago: (Picture once again courtesy of http://www.maggiebear.crosswinds.net)

http://www.maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt03/ttt022.jpg

And that visit of mine to the National Gallery in London pays off once more, because they turned out to have yet *another* poor and tormented Sebastian, with a suffering patient face, eyes directed heavenwards and brown curls. Here he is, painted by the Pollaiuolo brothers in 1475. Unfortunately the pic's rather small, so you may have to take my words for his looks, and also my assurance that he *is* just enough clothed to be acceptable under the rules of this site, as far as I can judge:

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG292&collectionSection=work

Luth barges into The Faculty...

Hullo everyone! :)

Just a quickie...not been around for yonks...spending too much time in CoE chat :rolleyes:...got loads to catch up on :p

Welcome to Shireling! hey there :)

Happy Belated Birthday to Azalea! {{{Hugs}}} I think it was someone else's BD a while ago too, so happy birthday to anyone else I've forgotten :(

And a big congrats to Mel on your new arrival! (((Mel))) Soooo cute! :D Thought up any names for him yet, Mel?! ;)

Ps - I saw something at A&F about a new film Elwood's gonna be in called 'Begin the Beguine', also starring Anna Paquin. Not heard anything else about it - any news here? :confused: Apologies if it's already been discussed, I didn't notice it in my quick scan down the pages :p

Hugs to you all, speak later :)

Luth x

Begin the Beguine? Is that any relation to the Cole Porter tune from the Fifties? You can listen to it here:

http://home.istar.ca/~townsend/pop_standards/begin_the_beguine.htm

Elijah would look very nice dressed in Late-50s fashions, I think.

Speaking of looking very nice, I am both cheesed and pleased that Elijah has once again not made People Magazine's list of the 50 Most Beautiful People, while the horsey-toothed, frat-boy looking Ben Affleck did. Cheesed because, my goodness, can it possibly be that such a small segment of the population recognizes how beautiful he is? Pleased because People Magazine is such a trashy rag anyway, and it's obvious they only enjoy spotlighting celebrities that appeal to the widest possible mainstream rabble, and I'd rather NOT see Elijah in that company.

I meant to say welcome to Shireling...as others have said, a very lovely name, and your first post was quite touching. :)

Hey Luth! *hugs* back at ya. :) How's work?

Elijah Wood and Anna Paquin would make an interesting match, but what could the movie be about? (thanks for the link, Elda, but my connection's a little slow to try listening to stuff right now) Assuming this news were true, of course.

Rikka, lovely to see you again, and thanks so much for sharing the good 'Try 17' news with us. What I'm wondering is if movies off the streets of Russia get to travel to the streets of other countries, if you know what I mean ... <cough> ;) ?


Bridget - that's great! You now have CofF. What's your verdict?


Originally posted by Maeglian
I think I have developed chronic compulsive posting syndrome, or something! I can't log on here and read the posts without making connections, getting ideas, and wanting to comment.......

There, there, Maeg. That's right. Admit your addiction. Have no fear. You'll find help here. :D

I would be concerned for you if Arwen's dresses start making you think directly of Frodo, so it's with some relief that I see there's a convoluted thought process going on there. ;) Not that the loincloth discussions aren't disturbing enough! :p And not that I think there's any harm in Arwen per se, because the more Arwen there is the more Aragorn there is too and that can never be a bad thing, eh?

total chilly winter silence from the Faculty ... a result of Wrong Guy Wrong Thread remark

Oooookkaaaaayyyy -- quick return to subject:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-5/93723/totalfilm_rotk.jpg

with the proper huge scan to be found here:
http://always.ejwsites.net/images/totalfilm_rotk.jpg
As usual, for an Always&Forever link, please copy and paste URL into Address bar.

Originally posted by Maeglian
:eek: I think I have developed chronic compulsive posting syndrome, or something! I can't log on here and read the posts without making connections, getting ideas, and wanting to comment.......
That's okay--you can fill in for me :) . I'm so brain-dead lately that I can't do any of the above :rolleyes: . And it seems the condition may last awhile yet.

I scouted around IMDb a bit and didn't find anything about an upcoming "Begin the Beguine" movie. That doesn't necessarily mean nothing's in the works, of course. For "Begin the Beguine" all that was listed was a movie from (IIRC) 1982. The only project listed as upcoming for Anna Paquin was "Wolverine's Revenge," which seems to be a video game where she's going to "voice" her X-men character. The only thing noteworthy listed for Elijah was that Thumbsucker is now said to be "filming." No role listed for Mr. Reeves yet, though. Eternal Sunshine and Rotk were both listed as in "post-production." Has anyone seen or heard anything about filming for Thumbsucker actually being underway?

Rikka, so good to see you back :) :cool: ! Thanks for the news from Russia on Try Seventeen (although it makes the rest of us envious) ;) . Are they still using Try Seventeen (or the Russian equivalent) for the title, or have they changed it to the "All I Want" idea?

Very distressing to find so many dear Faculty members on the edge of becoming delusional or delerious or doing strange things with loincloths because of the lack of new Frolijah pics :eek: . So with the last bit of consciousness I can hang onto at the end of this week, I've gotten the May updates on my website. I realize the pics aren't new :( , but perhaps they can at least provide some first aid. There are two new Moria pages and one from The Party. Since there are three of them, I'll just post the link for the main Elijah Wood (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id148.htm) page and each person can go from there.

Originally posted by ainon
Bridget - that's great! You now have CofF. What's your verdict?

Well, you'll have to wait a bit for that, because, see, I haven't exactly figured out how to work it yet...:o Windows Media player will play the sound, but not the images.:rolleyes: I'll have my brother figure it out this weekend.

Rikka - thanks for the "Try Seventeen" update!:)

tgshaw - I love the (modified;) ) C.S Lewis quote in your sig!:D

And thank you for all those new screencaps!:cool: I especially like the "Sam and Rosie" section (of course;) ) - the look of abject horror on Sam's face in number 12 is just priceless.:D (And as someone who doesn't dance, but has friends who won't accept that and insist on forcing me to dance, I can totally identify.;) )

Anyway, very interesting analysis of Frodo taking responsibility and thinking fast at the Party. I hadn't thought of it that way before. I do think that Frodo's pushing Sam into the dance foreshadows (whoops, scratch that, froshadows:o :o ) the end of ROTK - in both instances, Frodo helps Sam to "get involved" - first in the party and the dance, and then in life in the Shire itself - and takes joy in Sam's happiness. And in both cases, Frodo himself doesn't get involved; he sits back at the party, watching Sam, and of course, goes over Sea and lets Sam live his own life at the end of the story.

Not sure how well I explained that, but oh well...:o

from Ainon
There, there, Maeg. That's right. Admit your addiction. Have no fear. You'll find help here.
Yes. Well. That's pretty much a case of the blind leading the blind...;) :D

Greetings Lutheia and Rikka :)

Shireling-yay! Another vict....er...fan. Welcome!

Bridget- I hope you get to see CoF ...I am so pleased at seeing an actual non LoTR EW film, despite living on the nether regions of the planet, that I will debate it willingly and endlessly (until told to stop) if given half a chance. On the weekend though. Sigh. Real life and all that. Still- I have had to bury my VCR (it died 5 months ago but was only diagnosed as terminal this last week due to financial constraints) and have got a new one!!! Cheap!!! Sales season and actually earning money coincide. Vive paid employment. I work really hard for my money (I'm a puritan tg, ;) ) and actually getting to watch my favourite movie makes it so worthwhile. So guess what film I'm going to be glued to tonight once I put my small ones into bed? ;) No, Ariel, it's not Flipper. :D Man, its been so long since I watched FoTR uninterrputed that I have bought myself a bottle of soft red wine and got a fire ready specifically for this. Bliss.

because the more Arwen there is the more Aragorn there is too and that can never be a bad thing, eh?

Oh Ainon. *frown*. ...;) Just kidding. You are so right. But we love Aragorn because he's so good at looking after Frodo...right?
:cool:

Originally posted by tgshaw
Are they still using Try Seventeen (or the Russian equivalent) for the title, or have they changed it to the "All I Want" idea? [/B]
tgshaw,
in Russia they gave this film a bit different name... more simple. "Of seventeen" or "Seventeens" (those who are 17 years old).
It seems to me that in English the meaning of the title is different, isn't it?

Tgshaw's amazing Frodo series, Maeglian's comments on "Arwen&Co stealing Frodo's screen time," and the mention of "Begin the Beguine" have stirred some really distant memories. So make yourselves comfortable and prepare for a long (and controversial) story.

Once upon a time in the sixties, an ambitious students' theatre company decided to perform an adaptation of LOTR. The idea looked bizarre to most of their fans who regarded Tolkien's opus as a misshapen children's tale :D. But the young thespians were adamant because they firmly believed that those three volumes of bowdlerised medieval legendry contained an original and truly captivating story: That of Frodo Baggins, Esq. So they came up with the following dramatisation.

Synopsis (Or, What I Can Still Recall Of It)
I. [The Shire] Bilbo makes Frodo his heir and bequests him his sword and mithril shirt. Frodo exits, surprised. Gandalf appears and persuades Bilbo to leave the Ring, too. Frodo re-enters to learn the true nature of the Ring. Sam is caught eavesdropping. Gandalf departs bidding the hobbits to meet him at Weathertop.
II. [The Chase] Frodo and Sam travel East. At Weathertop, instead of Gandalf, they meet Strider. The Nazgul attack. The trio (Strider carrying Frodo) makes it to the Ford where they are rescued by Gandalf in a clumsy attempt at stage spec effects :p. As Strider and Gandalf return Frodo to life, Boromir arrives seeking to find an explanation for the Prophecy. An impromtu "Council of No Elrond" is held. Frodo says his "though I don't know the way" convincing everyone of everything ;).
III.[The Fellowship] The five heroes enter Moria. Gollum is spotted lurking in the dark. Sam awakens the Balrog. Gandalf falls. The men and hobbits emerge from Moria and find the boat hidden by Strider some other time. Boromir confronts Frodo. Orcs attack everyone. Frodo has a vision and leaves for Mordor followed by Sam.
IV. [Gollum] Frodo and Sam tame Smeagol and cross the Dead Marshes. Faramir appears and proceeds canonically. The hobbit trio are released and get to Shelob's lair pretty soon. Frodo is paralysed. Sam follows the orcs to the Tower of CU.
V. [Aragorn Elessar] Strider briefly mourns Boromir and sets off for Gondor. He meets a small host of Rohirrim led by Eowyn and convinces them to help Gondor out. Minas Tirith is under siege. Strider confronts the Witch King at the Gate thus revealing himself to everyone as Isildur's Heir. The WiKi retreats and is defeated by Eowyn alone. Faramir arrives, badly battered, and brings news of Frodo. Aragorn addresses the audience with a combination of his and Gandalf's speeches.
VI. [Mount Doom] Sam suffers a fit of Ring induced delirium but fights it off and saves Frodo from the quarrelling orcs. The hobbits dash for Orodruin. Gollum re-appears. Frodo utters his prophecy and Sam spares the loser. At Sammath Naur, Frodo claims the Ring and Gollum does his last jig. After an explosion, Frodo and Sam find themselves on different sides of a fiery chasm. Sam is ready to brave it but Frodo ushers him away with strictly Tolkien text from the remainder of the book. Another flash, and Sam comes rolling to the front of the stage. The lights go soft and we see a tall figure dressed as Gandalf carrying a tiny figure away backstage.

[b]A few remarks
The drastic cuts were made to save time, avoid staging difficulties, and concentrate on Frodo. Eagles and Gandalf's resurrection were snubbed as deus ex machina tricks. Ents were deemed technically impossible which made the removal of Saruman, Merry and Pippin slightly less painful.
Two actors took turns as Frodo and Gollum, respectively. Eowyn was once played by a good looking lad :D. Boromir and Faramir were the same guy.
The score was very good. No offense to Mr Shore but he still has to write something approaching the G-moll String Quintet by WA Mozart. Extremely Frodo-ish music, btw. The fourth part was used in the very last scene to a devastating effect.

If that were the film with EJW
Less investment ergo less commercialism. Fewer difficult combination shots, hence more emphasis on the editing of EJW's scenes :D. No need to invent additional scenes and dialog.

Finally, EJW would certainly earn his well-deserved best actor Oscar and everyone else would be up for supporting actor nods! :p :p

Yes, I know what everyone wants to say! :k I'm just trying to bring the entire LOTR on our topic! ;)

Brunhild, that is an amazing adaptation. As you say, totally Frodo-centric. Also very good because there is no Arwen (and, for ainon, just as much if not more Aragorn ;)) But poor Sam, how did he wake up the Balrog? And what an amazing AU ending. I’d have loved to have seen it! You’re right, it’s the Lord of the Rings as I’ve sometime been tempted to read it – just the Frodo and Sam bits.

(I'll never listen to that string quartet in quite the same way again!)

Those are wonderful pictures, Ainon, Brunhild and Maeglian – the St Sebastien ones are so close to the Osgiliath Frodo pictures it’s uncanny. And Bridget, the Fro-dusa picture is scary!

Rikka, I’ll be very interested to hear your review of the ‘17’ picture. I have no idea if it will ever be released here, even on video. So take a notebook and pen to the movie, and give us a complete, detailed report (pretty please.)

Tg, I’ve finally paid a visit to your site, and the screencaps there are wonderful!! I loved the party shots, they do show the physicality which underlies the performance – not just the wonderful expressive face, but also the little gestures which help give you a sense of the character. Thank you so much for this!

(And Bridget, I think you explained it perfectly :))

Speaking of pictures, I have none to post yet, Blossom – it’s a little project I’m saving for a rainy day. Not that I’ll have anything particularly original to offer, but I have finally got my hands on the Huck Finn DVD , so you never know!!

Prim, I hope you enjoyed your uninterrupted FOTR viewing. And the red wine. And the fire. It sounds idyllic!

Hello Shireling, it’s nice to meet you :)

Welcome, shireling!

Thanks for the congratulations, everyone. :) Ian Cassidy is doing fine (napping on Grandma since his last feeding). I got something like 6 hours of sleep last night, which is better than it's been all week, so I'm doing well too. ;)

Anyway, to be on topic (with discussion several days ago, which I had to leave... ;) ). I was actually thinking that I could see Elijah nominated for best supporting actor for something like Eternal Sunshine, and not get nominated for anything for LotR. :eek: Partly because of the anti-fantasy bias of the Academy, partly because there are so many good performances in LotR that any nomination votes for actors from LotR are likely to compete against one another, partly because it's easier for a young actor to get a best supporting actor nomination than a best actor nomination, and partly because acting nominations often come from artsier pictures. Eternal Sunshine sounds like the sort of film that first acting nominations often come from. And if he were nominated, people might vote for him for his work in LotR as well as for Eternal Sunshine.

Not that this is the way Iwould like things to play out.

Of course, all this is predicated upon Eternal Sunshine being a good movie...

Mel

All I have to say is that cuts or no cuts, how can you hate an LotR adaptation with no Arwen and a "canonical Faramir?" :D

((((Mel)))) and (((Ian Cassidy with the extremely cute ears)))) Great that you're getting some sleep. 6 hours isn't bad. :)
Edit: And thank you for "becoming" your old avatar again!!!


Bridget, I absolutely loved that "before and after" interpretation of yours on Frodo and Sam's life in the Shire as highlighted through that small happy party scene! Come on, you know you're making perfect sense. :)

(And it's ever so much better and true to story and characters than my rather cynical take on why Frodo pushes bashful-but-in-love-Sam to dance with Rosie: That it was included to assure the casual moviegoer that Frodo and Sam are SO NOT gay, which apparently :rolleyes: was needed up-front of their later beautiful hugging scenes.) :rolleyes:


Brunhild, I'm very curious: Do you know people involved in staging that student theatre performance? Because I honestly think they seem to have made a very impressive job (depending a little on which and how much dialogue was included, of course). A good thing those guys at Miramax didn't have their hands on this synopsis when they were telling PJ to cut his script down to one film; - then they'd not have believed him when he told them it couldn't be done in less than two, and would have given the project to some other director! :eek:

Seriously; - there's much Frodo (and Sam), Eowyn gets to kick butt, Faramir is included and he's even canonical, Aragorn is still around to provide manliness; - what's not to like? :cool:

This was when Tolkien was still alive, right? I bet he'd not have been very happy to see the elves left out entirely. No wise Elrond, no Arwen sewing banners, no stern yet benevolent Noldorin lady of the Galadhrim. But I think *I* would have missed Merry and Pippin the most, hobbit-centric person that I remain (and I'm even more fond of the 2 now thanks to Billy Boyd and Dominic Monaghan, of course!)

One final word about it; - like Estella Rose I *loved* the ending. Mt. Doom and the Havens packed into one! Surprising, scary, tragic, ambiguous and sad; - ultimately leaving the audience guessing what happened to Frodo; - just like the book! :cool:


From ainon:
There, there, Maeg. That's right. Admit your addiction. Have no fear. You'll find help here.
I would be concerned for you if Arwen's dresses start making you think directly of Frodo..... :D

Well, all I can say is ....

Prepare to be concerned! (http://www.anime.net/~laine/Parody/Lotr/brocade.jpg)

:eek:

(I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I just *couldn't* resist. You'll all tell me when my silliness is getting unbearable, right? Right? )

Brunhild that adaptation sounds amazing...wouldn't it be great if someone would revive it? (Do you think it could be done, what with copyrights and all that? Maybe Off-off-off Broadway?) And I have to commend your memory, if you last saw this in the 60s. The "Gandalf carrying a tiny figure" ending sounds extremely moving!

Thanks to all for the lovely messages of welcome.

Blossom, I'm looking forward to hearing how you enjoy 'The Good Son' & 'Huck Finn' - the latter is definitely one of my favourites of the films Elijah did as a child. Just recently I've been enjoying my own little Lij Film Fest. Last year I bought just about every available film he's ever made but once the FOTR dvd came out I found that every time a viewing opportunity arose (I have to be alone) I couldn't resist watching that or one of my compilation tapes of Lij interviews & LOTR 'making-of' documentaries. So, Lij's other films got rather neglected. However, a few weeks ago I decided I was going to watch every one of his films in chronological order and I wasn't allowed to touch that dvd until I'd finished! I have reached 'The Ice Storm', which I watched this morning.

TGShaw - I have discovered your site with all those pages of wonderful screencaps - I know I shall spend many hours droo, er studying those.

Maeglian - I had a quick look at that costume site - it looks fascinating, can't wait to have a proper look.

Eldalieva - I so agree, its difficult to contemplate how anyone could compile a list of 50 most beautiful people and exclude Elijah - and I remember the same thing happening last year. Glad to hear its a trash mag - don't feel so bad about it now.

Finally, I'd just like to add my congratulations to Mel on the new arrival

:)

Welcome back, Mel! :) :)

Maeg--I was prepared to be very concerned, but that is so obviously not one of Arwen's dresses that I breathed a sigh of relief. :D

Bridget, I loved your beginning and ending parallel of Sam and Frodo's relationship, too. Of course the first one isn't in the book, but the second one had better be in the film :eek: ! (BTW, my personal favorites of the Sam shots there are in the opening frames, when he's trying to be so nonchalant about "just having another ale." That's about three layers of acting, isn't it? An actor playing a character who's pretending to be laid-back... Not an easy trick, I'd think :cool: .)

A couple of parts of the discussion lately have been popping up in my mind in strange ways. Ever since King Lamoni's mention of Clear Lake and the Buddy Holly connection during the Iowa trivia posting, I've had "American Pie" and "That'll Be the Day that I Die" running through my head. Could be much, much worse, of course. At least they're songs I like, and "American Pie" has been kind enough to pick different verses when it starts playing in my brain on various occasions. (BTW, KL, you do know there's a Lamoni, Iowa, I assume... :) ) If Gary Busey hadn't already done "The Buddy Holly Story," I might suggest that role for Elijah--every time I've seen him in geek mode in those dark-rimmed glasses, I've thought of Buddy :p . And it's not unusual to have a real person played in a movie by someone better looking than the original.

Brunhild's description of the play made me think of the site that uses action figures to act out the LotR movies (they're just starting to put TTT together). It's run by a couple of boys who must be somewhere in adolescence, and it's kind of difficult to say much about it in a public thread because they're very serious about it and work hard to do a good job; but I have it bookmarked at work for when I need a sure tension reliever at the end of the day :cool: . Anyway, what the play reminded me of is the way these boys also have to cope with a lack of "actors." It's hard to get enough tension in some scenes because they have only one Black Rider, two Nazgul (sans horses, for Weathertop), and a few orcs. And, like the play, they have an Eldrond-less Council of Elrond. The site is set up to accept donations of action figures (or money to buy them)--I've never taken the plunge, but I think sometimes of specifically sending an Elrond figure so he can be at his own Council :p .



The following could be a Huck Finn movie spoiler (has nothing to do with the book) for those who haven't seen it yet.






The "soundtrack" of the play also made me stick the Huck Finn DVD in the drive, because I knew a Mozart piece was used at the climax, when Huck's been shot and Jim is about to be lynched, and I thought the credits would identify it. But they just call it "Mozart String Quartet," and I'm not familiar enough with his music to know which Mozart string quartet it is. Be interesting to know if it's the same one, especially because of what's happening in the movie at the time. Bill Conti (or someone) evidently had the good sense to let Mozart step in to score that scene ;) ; it fits perfectly with the heightened drama.







End of Huck Finn movie spoilers


And since the "scene choice" function forced me :rolleyes: to watch the final scene in order to get to the credits, I did a screencap of something I'd been pretty sure was there. Some people were skeptical when I said awhile back that I knew I'd seen this face somewhere before:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/frodosamcaptured2-crop.jpg

Well, it's not exactly the same, but this is definitely the look I was thinking of:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/capcrop6819-85.jpg

Welcome back, mel! {{{{hugs for mom & baby}}}} :k You could be onto something there with the Oscar nomination theory, if we're talking about real chances. I guess it's still the dream of all dreams that any nomination ought to be for playing Frodo, even if it's a 'only' supporting actor nod. But in that case I'd worry about that bringing him into direct competition with Sean Astin! :eek:

Brunhild - wow. Thanks for sharing that with us. I can imagine PJ bringing this version to life (woohoo!) but I'd hate to see what the purists who aren't into hobbits or Elijah Wood will do to him. :p :D

tgshaw, bless thee for rescuing us from loincloths! (so, like, does that mean you aren't screencapping Gordon the Cavetroll's moments of glory?) Great screencaps, and your attention to cloaks is much appreciated. And Bridget, I love your take on Frodo & Sam too. :)

Very interesting Huck Finn froshadowing for DarkFrodo, tg. Better hair as a hobbit though. And he looks much better without that bowtie. estella - hope you'll have the time too soon for screencapping little Huck. The C.S. Lewis 'quote' is so very apt for this Faculty. ;)

shireling - a Lij Film Fest sounds like a brilliant idea. I don't believe I've ever gone through his films chronologically, although I have seen them all more than once! Err ... so ... have you seen the animated movie that shall not be named?


Prim:
But we love Aragorn because he's so good at looking after Frodo...right?

What? Uh ... yeah! Precisely! Manly good at it, oh yes, oh yes, oh yes. Ahem. Well ... we haves to have someone to gaze at when Frodo's not gracing the screen! :D

Well, despite my hobbitcentricity I loved Aragorn in the books too, at least when he was more Strider and less Elessar. I'm shallow that way. MovieAragorn seems like the perfect balance for me right now, plus there's
the added angst. I'm exceptionally shallow that way. :p

Anyway, hope you had the most lovely FotR time, Prim!


Maeg ... a LOTR/Tootsie crossover! Whoa! Dude! Cool. :D


Now to go look at tg's screencaps as a slideshow, but before I go ... darn you tg! Now *I've* got 'American Pie' playing in my head. And since I don't know the real lyrics, the version that's stuck in my head is Weird Al Yankovic's take on Anakin Skywalker aka Young Darth Vader. Darn you, tg!!! ;)

"Arwen sewing banners"--Maeglian should have been appointed resident critic on the set of LOTR. That might have kept megalomanic sentimentality in check :p :D.
And, Maeglian, your "cynical take" wouldn't really work. For instance, Shakespear's busily convincing the fair boy of his Sonnets to start a family. Has that prevented the obvious and tedious speculations? :D

Re: most beautyful people lists--Ambitious men tend to value performance above appearance. EJW may dread the thought that he owes more to his looks than to his ability.

I would prefer not to answer certain questions about the adaptation I've shared. In any case, the people involved in it did not bother themselves with securing their copyright or respecting Tolkien's :D. So the "Synopsis" can be freely used now (e.g., by the boys mentioned by tgshaw ;) ). The dialog was mostly Tolkien (with some remarks attributed to different characters, of course). There might have been a brief epilogue but I'm not sure. Elves were eliminated to avoid confusion with "fairies" which would have been almost inevitable at the time ;). The music was Mozart String Quintet in G Minor, K.516. (I liked it much more than the play :D.)

My DVD player has decided to disagree with one of my DVD's; - unfortunately it's the FotR SE DVD 2nd disc. In the middle of the mirror of Galadriel scene the player suddenly stops, skips around, then randomly jumps ahead to some later scene. :mad: However, I've had to watch the mirror of Galadriel scene a number of times in trying to figure out what is wrong (player or disc.) And I noted something..... :D

In the director's commentary to FotR, the first time Galadriel appears, PJ&Co. talks about the "Galadriel lights" - the circle of "christmas lights" they used to ensure that multiple lights reflected in Cate Blanchett's eyes - thus giving her a mysterious set-apart "lady of light" look in the close-ups.

In fighting with the DVD player, I noted that in the mirror scene, there are several times when Frodo seems to have those multiple light reflections also. Just before he steps up to the mirror, and in the close-up immediately before he stretches forth the hand with the Ring for the first time, for instance. And towards the end of that scene, there's so much light reflecting in his eyes that it looks like a ring of light all around his irises for a little while. Then he's back to multiple points of light at the very end.

I wonder if they did that on purpose, to set Frodo apart and give him a "being of light" appearance also? After all, this is in the scene where he demonstrates an ability to communicate telepathically with Galadriel too......... ( Or maybe they just didn't bother removing the"Galadriel light" rig for the Frodo close-ups? Or maybe there are multiple lights quite often in other close-up scenes even without the use of the "Galadriel lights"? Or is it because he's almost crying??)

Having started looking into the characters' eyes for those light reflections, I think I could just continue doing it for scene after scene, if I had time (which I don't). It's really fascinating! And it demonstrates how much of the film relies on close-ups of expressive actor faces; EJW's in particular. (I *am* of course fully aware that this is the only place I can say the above without people calling for the men in the white clothes to come have a talk with me. :o )


A couple of other things:

Tg, thank you for the updates to your site. Fascinating as always to see how much can be captured that is not apparent when watching the scenes in motion, however intently that watching is.

Brunhild, I'm aware my cynical take didn't work. The fact that there seems to be more slash fanfiction out there than any other type probably is proof of that. I still believe my cynical view *is* one of the reasons why we got those several very cute scenes with Sam and Rosie early on in FotR, though. Not that it matters at all, since obviously those scenes are lovely and fully defend their existence whatever the original reasons they were written like that. :)

Maeglian--Numerous important scientific discoveries have been made because of malfunctioning equipment :p.

In a spontaneous change of subject, I'm posting a black and white photo of a person whose biography may one day become a starring vehicle for a certain someone. Thanks to Rikka for reminding me of Russia and its unexpected ties to the US ;).
http://www.empirezine.com/spotlight/brodsky/3.jpg

Two (rather insufficient) biography/miscelanea links for this truly amazing man: link 1 (http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/brodsky.htm) and link 2 (http://www.empirezine.com/spotlight/brodsky/1.htm). Also, his Nobel Lecture (http://www.nobel.se/literature/laureates/1987/brodsky-lecture.html).

And an image for comparison:
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/1606/ElijahWood_Vespa_629260_400.jpg

Don't have much time now, but just popped in to say I have watched both 'Huck Finn' and 'The Good Son' DVD's over the weekend. Hubby has been busy on the computer, so what's a woman to do but take advantage and watch her Elijah films?:D Hubby is very good really, as I watch the FOTR extended DVD on a regular basis, and he doesn't complain. Bless!

You could say I had one of your 'Lij Film Fests,' Shireling!:) After 'Huck Finn' viewing #2 last night, I couldn't resist putting 'Bumblebee' in the video - I love Barney! Like you, I now have quite a few Elijah related/LOTR making-of TV documentary tapes, and his earlier films that I've taped off TV - Avalon, Radio Flyer, Forever Young etc. Don't know about you, but I just never tire of watching them!

Anyway, after watching Elijah in these three very different roles over the last couple of days, I have decided he has THE MOST EXPRESSIVE EYES OF ANY ACTOR I HAVE EVER SEEN - LIVING OR DEAD! Even in 'Huck Finn,' when he was so young, he displayed such a vast range of emotions. He had me is stitches with his English accent as Adolphus - made me wonder what his Artful Dodger accent is like - I havent had the pleasure of 'Oliver Twist' yet. Some of you have said his Dodger accent is a bit 'off,' but his Adolphus was hilarious. There he is, at what - 10 years of age? - playing a character with a Southern/Mississippi acccent, having to produce a 'fake' English accent. I think he does rather better than Jason Robarts, who seems to lapse into an Australian accent more than once! I LOVE Adolphus's, 'Why, thankyou for the compliment, Sir,' line. And I also love the scene in the kitchen when the suspicious sister - Susan, I think - is interrogating Adolphus. Gotta love him!

But in there with all the mischief and humour is Huck's genuine affection for Jim. That little scene on the riverbank with Billy and his father fishing - the one Tg featured on her site recently - is very touching. You can see the dilemma in Huck's eyes - should he stay and 'have it easy' himself, or resist that temptation and help Jim to escape? And then there's the shot in the back! What a reaction - akin to the blade at Weathertop! And Huck's 'death' -OK, I know the pulse was clearly visible pumping away in his neck - but that last little smile at Jim after he realizes his friend is safe, and the way his head just drops back is heartbreaking.

This post is already longer than I intended, so I'll leave my thoughts on 'The Good Son' until next time.

Terrific new screencaps on your site Tg. I love to read your comments/take on the scenes. Btw, I hope to get some caps from 'The Good Son' done soon. If you have any suggestions, or any particular shots/scenes you'd like to see screencaps or gifs of, I'd be happy to oblige. Love your Fro and Huck screencaps above. They do both have a similar 'look,' though that is definitely Huck, while Frodo is not quite himself there... Edit. Tg, I very much regret to say there is NO director's commentary on the UK version of 'Huck Finn' DVD. I've checked and double-checked - and there's nothing!

Talking of gifs - Are you out there, deluby?

Nice to see you again, Ricca. Hope you get to see 'Try 17,' and come back and tell us your views on it.

Glad you're back with us Mel. Ian Cassidy is a little beauty! I did sneak a look at him the other day. :)

Brunchild - that was an interesting LOTR adaptation. Very Frodo/Sam-centric. Just what we like here. And yes, from what I know of him, I think Elijah would much prefer to be recognized for his talent than his looks. I really don't think he's egotistic or self-conceited at all. Edit. Just noticed your last post, Brunchild, and though I haven't time now, I will read those links regarding Joseph Brodsky with interest - soon. There is a likeness with those pics, too.

Maeglian - I must take another look at that Mirror of Galadriel scene again, and look even closer into Frodo's eyes - as if I need an excuse!

And all this talk of Frodo in a loincloth is enough to raise your blood-pressure - and it also brings to mind what he may NOT be wearing in the Tower in ROTK...
With that thought Blossom wanders off...

Goodnight all.

Brunhild, that would be a very interesting project for Elijah to play Joseph Brodsky someday (and something the Oscar voters would love). I couldn't resist popping in to note that in Brodsky's bio it says he died on January 28, 1996, Elijah's 15th birthday! :eek:

Originally posted by Maeglian
I wonder if they did that on purpose, to set Frodo apart and give him a "being of light" appearance also? After all, this is in the scene where he demonstrates an ability to communicate telepathically with Galadriel too......... ( Or maybe they just didn't bother removing the"Galadriel light" rig for the Frodo close-ups? Or maybe there are multiple lights quite often in other close-up scenes even without the use of the "Galadriel lights"? Or is it because he's almost crying??)
Or is meant to be reflecting Galadriel? When she goes nuclear, her light reflects from the Ring, but I don't know if that happens when she's "normal."

Fascinating as always to see how much can be captured that is not apparent when watching the scenes in motion, however intently that watching is.
Just wait til next month ;) :p . I'd originally put some pics from Frodo's fall/jump from upper to lower staircase on the "Where did that come from?" page--but then decided it needs one of its own. Has anyone heard anything about how that scene was filmed? I mean, I know they weren't really on a huge, collapsing flight of stairs :rolleyes: , but there sure seems to be some actual flying through the air going on. BTW, as a "visual aid" I put up an avatar that's from that event--with Frodo smushed up against Boromir after being caught.

I've spent most of the evening--after the pesky tornado warning, thunder, lightning and hail got over with so I could turn the computer on--at the discussion board for my website program, learning all the dire things that can happen if I don't get the upgrade. The company was bought, and the program I'm using isn't supported any more. Guess I've been lucky not to have any problems except for loss of ability to do passwords, guestbooks, feedback buttons, and stuff like that. Otherwise, it's always worked perfectly for me, including ongoing editing, and it's so easy (which, of course, is why I use it :o ). The upgrade is supposed to be compatible with it, which I hope means I wouldn't have to start from scratch.

-- Good thing about the upgrade is that you can use it with any webhost, while the one I have now is pretty much limited to Lycos. I was surprised to see so many people on the discussion board who were having problems with Lycos, since I haven't had any, except for not being able to direct-link images. But I think their pop-up and drop-down ads have doubled lately, and I hate to ask people to deal with all that in order to visit the site. Last week, for the first time, they had one I thought was actually offensive--it's disappeared and I hope it won't be back.

When I'll have time to deal with all this and actually get the upgrade, transfer the website from one program to the other, and move to a different webhost is something I haven't figured out yet... Just hope it's before everything comes crashing down :eek: .

Blossom--that's really too bad about the Huck Finn DVD not having the director's commentary :( . BTW, IMHO, the difference between the Huck Finn English accent and the one in Oliver Twist is that the one in Huck Finn is supposed to be funny :o --so is Jason Robard's Australbritish accent :D .

As far as The Good Son, I'm still hoping for a better look at the Froshadowing when Mark's following his aunt down the staircase. I haven't watched that movie for a long time, and maybe it's not as good a Froshadowing of Frodo following Galadriel as I remember it to be... Deluby did make a gif of it awhile back, but IIRC it was from a VHS and so wasn't as clear as usual. Another good scene--not a Froshadowing--is when he's shoving all the food in the kitchen down the garbage disposal. Hmmm... I'll have to watch the movie again to see what I'm forgetting.

Finally, I ran across this at the good ol' Ultimate Image Archive while looking for something else. The artist's name is Sodoma, but that's all I know. I don't know that it's any better than the ones that have been posted already, but here's another St. Sebastian:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/off topic/www_pics_am-sodoma1.jpg

Brunhild, thank you for the fascinating information about Joseph Brodsky. A person and author I know far to little about, obviously. Agree this seems like an ideal role for EJW some years down the road....


Blossom, thank you for the Huck Finn post, and looking forward to your Good Son one. I'll echo tg in asking for some caps from poor desperate little Mark's attempt to urgently rid the household of food.....


Remember that info Luthiea posted about a "Begin the beguine" project? Several Anna Paquin fan sites actually has it listed as a project; - for 1998........ ! There seems to be quite a lot of sites around that have not been updated for years and years.
The most extensive information is on a (also very far from updated) Natalie Portman fan site, though: The Internet Movie Database reports that Natalie will be appearing in these upcoming films: (snip)
Begin the Beguine (1998), alongside Anna Paquin and Elijah Wood.

That would have pleased LEK immensely, had it really happened. But obviously it's one of those projects that were in the works 5 years ago but never saw the light of day. Just like Thumbsucker, I'm beginning to think.


Tg, your St. Sebastian is the best (or worst :eek: ) yet. Is it even possible to live with an arrow through the throat like that? Anyway, going by LotR lore, that saint has been marked for certain death (3 arrows, just like Boromir or Isildur. :eek: ) SPOILERY comment:*********
While I believe AICN reported that Faramir will eventually return to Minas Tirith unconscious and hit by 2 arrows;- if that's true than it's a sign he *will* survive, although barely.........
*******End spoilery comment

Hey :)

Thanks for that info Maeg :) Oh well I wonder what the film was about?

WB to mummy Mel! Nice to see the little chap's giving you some time to sleep! :p It's funny I know a guy called Ian Cassidy... :)

Oh well, hugs everyone

Luth :)

"St Sebastian" by Il Sodoma (Giovanni Antonio Bazzi) posted by tgshaw is indeed the one that comes to everybody's ;) mind during the Osgiliath scene. (One can verify this bold assertion here (http://bode.diee.unica.it:80/~giua/SEBASTIAN/).) IMHO, this is just another instance of PJ's questionable taste. I'm sorry to say it here :k but this kind of imagery and the "politically correct" decision to alter the master-servant (or officer-private) relationship between Frodo and Sam (although it's still OK for Aragorn to be King, isn't it?) have predictably led to the abominable fandom abuse of Frodo/EJW mentioned by Maeglian in her earlier post. :mad:

Well, Brunhild, if by "abominable fandom abuse," you're referring to the proliferation of Frodo/Sam slash fanfiction, my understanding is that it existed quite some time before Peter Jackson's movie, so I doubt that the politcal correcting of their master/servant relationship contributed to it (I'm not sure I understand how depicting Frodo as a martyr has led to any fandom abuse. Tolkien did very much the same thing, only in words rather than pictures, where I suppose it comes off with a bit more subtlety.).

I've often thought that this particular shift in their relationship works well for the movie, especially considering that movie Frodo is much younger than book Frodo, and it would be conceivable for Frodo and Sam, as contemporaries, to be on more friendly terms, rather than master/servant terms, even though Frodo is Sam's employer. There were many other aspects of LoTR that were "updated" for a film audience: Arwen Warrior Princess, Reluctant King Aragorn and Eowyn, modern princess (not once is she seen serving the men at table, as she does a couple of times in the book). As for any EJW abuse, I can't comment, since I'm not really part of that fandom, and I've never read any stories based on the actors.

Originally posted by Maeglian
...But obviously it's one of those projects that were in the works 5 years ago but never saw the light of day. Just like Thumbsucker, I'm beginning to think.
IMDb currently has Thumbsucker listed as "filming," but, of course, that doesn't mean it's true.


Tg, your St. Sebastian is the best (or worst :eek: ) yet. Is it even possible to live with an arrow through the throat like that? Anyway, going by LotR lore, that saint has been marked for certain death (3 arrows, just like Boromir or Isildur. :eek: ) SPOILERY comment:*********
While I believe AICN reported that Faramir will eventually return to Minas Tirith unconscious and hit by 2 arrows;- if that's true than it's a sign he *will* survive, although barely.........
*******End spoilery comment



Well, although I suppose there might be some way that an arrow could go through someone's throat without killing him, I think in St. Sebastian's case (at least in this painting) it's supposed to be miraculous. Pictures of Sebastian that I remember from childhood had a lot more arrows in him than any of the ones that have been posted here.

The question about the arrow through the throat finally got me to actually look up the legend, because as I remembered it the arrows didn't kill him, but then in this painting you've got the angel bringing him the crown of martyrdom... But from what I found, it seems the angel was jumping the gun a bit. The legend says Sebastian entered the Roman army in order to be able to assist the Christians being martyred without arousing suspicion:
Finally he was found out, brought before Emperor Diocletian and delivered to Mauritanian archers to be shot to death. His body was pierced with arrows and he was left for dead. But he was found still alive by those who came to bury him.
He recovered, but was captured again and this time was beaten to death with clubs.

All we know historically about Sebastian is that he was a Roman martyr in the late 200's and that he was buried on the Appian Way. There's no evidence to support the legend. (I'll just add that this isn't unusual. The early Christians kept good records of the names of those who were martyred, but not much else. So there are a lot of martyrs whom we really know nothing about, and legends grew up around many of them--to "fill the void," I suppose.)

Anyway, the article I was reading mentioned that "The legend of St. Sebastian is important in art, and there is a vast iconography." I'm beginning to think there should be a male equivalent of "angst maven," and that the title could be given to a lot of the artists who made this type of painting. There are an awful lot of martyrs, and even a lot of interesting legends, so why paint Sebastian so often unless it's because of the "angst appeal"? I wouldn't be surprised if any underlying "symbolism" of showing Frodo in a similar light is based more on angst than on saintliness.

Brunhild--the link you posted isn't working for me right now, but then that's how the whole Internet's been behaving today :rolleyes: .

And I'm still wondering exactly what kind of king Aragorn will end up being in the movies--so far there hasn't been any mention of specifically kingly or even Numenorean "qualities," such as healing or living for hundreds of years. Nothing that I noticed about prophecies being fulfilled or even of Aragorn having the inherent right to be king because of his bloodline. In the SE, we get Elrond's statement about only Aragorn having the power to wield the sword of kings, but that could be taken in many ways--I don't think it necessarily points to the king having any special powers because he is king. So, I'd say that in the movies it's "okay for Aragorn to be king," but I'm not placing any bets on him being shown as much different from ordinary mortals. My guess is that he'll get the kingship the "old-fashioned way"--by earning it. But, then, I could be wrong...

This probably isn't a bad thing from a Frodocentric viewpoint. We have been told that Frodo was "meant" to be Ring-bearer--although there hasn't been any explanation given about why that's true. So, for the moment at least, Frodo's role seems more mysterious/mystical/providential/prophetic than Aragorn's does; in the book, I think they balance each other out.

As far as Frodo and Sam's master-servant relationship, IMHO that was a minefield PJ & Co. had to walk through--there was no way they could make everyone happy, and probably no way they could make some people completely happy without completely offending some others, so IMHO the best thing they could do was walk down the middle the best they could. There are a lot of subtle indications that Sam is from a lower class than the other hobbits in the Fellowship; it'd be interesting to know if those have been picked up by people who don't know the book. And I still give my prize of "best non-Tolkien dialogue line" to "His gardener." :P IMHO, those two words--after we've seen their interaction for five hours or so--make their relationship in the movie fall into place pretty well.

The one reason I love the master-servant relationship between the two in the book is because of how it changes--if they'd started out as "equals," there couldn't have been that transformation. And I doubt if RotK is going to have much time to explore that nuance of the story (considering everything else they have to fit in... :eek: ).

Originally posted by Brunhild
"St Sebastian" by Il Sodoma (Giovanni Antonio Bazzi) posted by tgshaw is indeed the one that comes to everybody's ;) mind during the Osgiliath scene.

Well, err, not everybody. ;) Until tg's little history bit, I hadn't a clue you guys were talking about a real person. What I was quietly wondering was why folks kept posting pics of men with little clothing on. :o :p Okay. So I'm dense. :rolleyes: And I don't know about 'questionable taste' ... those scenes are lovely to me from a cinematography perspective, and because, well, it's Frodo. If there is an imagery subtext - which I guess I'll accept if PJ & co say that's what they were aiming for - then it's gone right past me.


There's misc. stuff here: http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1052154068 including the news that this year we can expect the actors' commentary team to have Elijah, Sean and Andy Serkis, and Dom and Billy, separately. Other actors are in too, of course, in their teams or whatever. But awww, the four hobbits won't be together.


Going off-topic just a bit ... I was watching a DVD copy of The Rock with the commentary on - Nicolas Cage, Ed Harris, the director and producers, and a military expert were all in on it. Stuff that was interesting and which I think kinda has bearing on our occasional actor talk:
- the fact that each take is carefully planned in movies (and The Rock had loads of takes. Ed Harris was not particularly happy about doing things over and over again so that the all those different angles could be covered). Anyway, I guess what that means is for LOTR, if they wanted the take for Frodo to have extra eyelights, then that would have definitely been planned. (btw, thanks Maeg, for giving another reason to 'research' FotR ;) And I think there was an article last year where Andrew Lesnie talked at length about eyelights; I think it was 'American Cinematographer'?)
- Nicolas Cage talked at length about what ideas he had for his character and what he drew from his own life and such, and all the usual actor talk. He was also telling how for the car chase scenes, he was actually sitting in a stationary car pretending to be in a car chase. As he put it, it felt very foolish, but well, that's what he's paid to do: pretend. :D
- get to be an actor as magnificently renowned as Sean Connery, and the contract actually stipulates that he must have first coverage, which means when a scene is filmed, the camera is on him first, till all his coverage for every take and angle is done. Then the camera swings to the other actor. By which time the other actor may well be wiped out and too tired to deal with his own coverage. :eek:


Blossom - thanks for sharing your Huck Finn thoughts with us. :) That was one of the first EW films I hunted down after FotR, and which I hadn't seen before FotR. When that spoiler scene came near the end, it totally caught me by surprise - it'd been years since I read 'Huck Finn' but I knew I'd have remembered something like that! :p Anyway, it was a very effectively wonderfully angstily heart-wrenchingly done by a kid who was all of ten-years-old. Darn unfair that you're not getting the Director's commentary though. :( Well, looking forward to your 'Good Son' thoughts!

Brunhild- Thanks for the info on Brodsky. I'd never heard of him before but what an interesting man! That would be such a wonderful role for Elijah in a few years. Such depth and breadth of experience. I'd love to see some intelligent filmaker latch on to this bio-pic!

Well, err, not everybody. Until tg's little history bit, I hadn't a clue you guys were talking about a real person. What I was quietly wondering was why folks kept posting pics of men with little clothing on. Okay. So I'm dense. And I don't know about 'questionable taste' ... those scenes are lovely to me from a cinematography perspective, and because, well, it's Frodo. If there is an imagery subtext - which I guess I'll accept if PJ & co say that's what they were aiming for - then it's gone right past me.

Dense??? Huh!. These scenes have a particularly Christian reference that not all cultures will readily identify. Actually, its more specific: they have a particularly Catholic Christian reference which a lot of Protestants will miss. If I hadn't spent years in the Art History department of the local university they would have by passed me too. (As a lapsed puritan/protestant for those of you who don't know...:) )

But what I really want to comment on is the last part of Ainon's statement. Those scenes, independent of cultural reference, are lovely. For art students and Catholics they have a specific resonance, but as stand alone shots they have a haunting anxiety provoking beauty that captures the imagination.

So, sorry Brunhild: these visuals of the movie are among my absolute favourite and I don't find them of questionable taste at all. In fact, my current wallpaper is one of those very shots.

Eldalieva--I don't read any fanfiction at all. Not even the Epistles :D.

Prim--The visuals are downright beautiful as stand alone shots :). But do you know that it's the lovely canonical iconography that has made St Sebastian the informal patron saint of gays and lesbians? :cool: 'Questionable taste' manifests itself in mixing up contexts so that all sorts of 'parasitic meanings' pop up from the mess. Tolkien steers clear of this trap. PJ & Co do not. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Brunhild
Prim--The visuals are downright beautiful as stand alone shots :). But do you know that it's the lovely canonical iconography that has made St Sebastian the informal patron saint of gays and lesbians? :cool: 'Questionable taste' manifests itself in mixing up contexts so that all sorts of 'parasitic meanings' pop up from the mess. Tolkien steers clear of this trap. PJ & Co do not. :rolleyes:

So, if St. Sebastian is an "informal patron saint of gays," (assumingly because he's usually depicted as a near-naked young man), do you think it's the similarity (for some people) between PJ's Frodo and this art historical depiction that has led to all the gay rumors about Elijah Wood? Or about Frodo, for that matter? I don't know that I agree...I think people have a tendency to see what they want to see, and I think there are an awful lot of people who look at someone like Elijah Wood, who is beautiful in such a not conventionally-masculine way, and also tends to be a very sensitive and physically affectionate person, and automatically think, "gay." I don't think old St. Sebastian, for those who know of him, would have much effect on that sort of thinking.

I don't feel that PJ's imagery led to any particularly "parasitic meanings," and I'm pretty well-versed in both Tolkien and Christian iconography. Perhaps he can seem to lay things on a bit thick at times, but those are the times when we must consider the difference between film, where you have a few frames to convey meaning, and a book, where you can do so in long paragraphs of descriptive text. (And frankly, it's when PJ lets his characters TALK too much that things seem to fall apart, e.g. Sam's Lamentable Speech! :p )

Eldalieva--I was saying that the same pecularities of the visual treatment that led to St Sebastian's 'appointment' might have created an awful lot of people not getting Movie!Frodo properly. And, yes, 'questionable taste' permeates the dialog too :D. Frankly, I have no idea why people insist on calling EJW 'not conventionally masculine.' Research shows that he resembles Joseph Brodsky as a young man :cool: ;). A 'conventional man' is by no means a hirsute athlete :p.

In gay and lesbian thought, no different from hetero thought, there is the "lust" aspect, and the "love" aspect. St. Sebastian seems to have been singled out because he is painted as lustable beefcake,* while Frodo and Sam are singled out for their love and companionship. I don't see how one can casually lead into the other, since the blending of lust and love is so difficult to achieve. we had an argument in the harem about this a while back. In order for Frodo to be perceived in the same gay/lesbian light as St. Sebastien, he would have to be depicted as near-naked.

The REAL trap is CU, when Frodo is naked. With the Lust aspect so near, PJ will have a tough time staying on the Love track. (does that make any sense?)

I'm not surprised that the four hobbits are not going to do the commentary together; they are not together in the whole movie. And actually, I'm rather happy that Dom and Billy are separated. On the FotR SEE DVD, I got the distinct impression that Elijah and Sean were rather -- err -- drowned out by the Dom and Billy show. Poor Elijah, the most professional and important actor in the whole MOVIE for gods sake, was reduced only to reacting to those two hammy jokers with lame filler like "thanks I thought it was a good scream" or "Oh look it's Mr. Safety" and "okayokay enough about the Tig thing." But now, Elijah has only Sean and Andy to contend with. Sean is very intelligent and polite and knows when to shut up, and Andy is less well-known (and I daresay, less well-paid), and more likely to defer to the main guys. Therefore, maybe we'll hear something REAL out of Elijah this time. I'm looking forward to it.

I wonder if they got David Wenham to comment. Oh wait, what am I thinking...:rolleyes:.


------------
*though how anybody can lust after someone, beefcake or no, who was clubbed or shot for giving his life to Christ is beyond me. :confused:

Originally posted by Brunhild
Eldalieva--I don't read any fanfiction at all. Not even the Epistles :D.

Prim--The visuals are downright beautiful as stand alone shots :). But do you know that it's the lovely canonical iconography that has made St Sebastian the informal patron saint of gays and lesbians? :cool: 'Questionable taste' manifests itself in mixing up contexts so that all sorts of 'parasitic meanings' pop up from the mess. Tolkien steers clear of this trap. PJ & Co do not. :rolleyes:
St. Sebastian as the informal patron saint of gays and lesbians is new to me--but IMHO that by itself shouldn't change anything in the movie, any more than PJ should have left out that long shot of Frodo and Sam embracing in the boat because "everyone knows a long shot means sex." Or any more than JRRT should have "toned down" their relationship to avoid any interpretations of sexuality. Elda's absolutely right that there was plenty of talk--and writing--about that before the movie was ever dreamed of. I don't read any fanfic, either (I don't even know what the "Epistles" are, which is fine with me), but my guess would be that if there's more slash fiction since the movies started there's probably more of every other kind of fanfic, too, just because there are a lot of new fans to write it.

There are so many saints routinely pictured with that exact same gaze toward heaven that I really doubt those in the planning were thinking of anyone specific; I'm sure I could post dozens of examples without too much trouble--except trouble for Moggy's bandwidth :eek: . (Now, if Frodo was tied to a post and had arrows sticking out of him... :( ). Again, I think the "St. Sebastian connection" is based more on angst than sanctity (and going far beyond saintly gazes toward heaven, there's artwork such as Bernini's Teresa in Ecstasy--I don't know art history, but I do know Carmelite saints :) ). It wasn't too many months ago that we were posting Byzantine icons of Christ as Pantocrator to compare to the Osgiliath poster. If there's a conscious effort on the part of the movie makers to evoke a spiritual tone in some of the Osgiliath shots (which I think there certainly could be), IMHO it's meant to throw a very wide net over what's considered "spiritual," and any narrowing down to specifics comes from the background of the viewer.

lit rant


I agree there are moments when PJ & Co's "good taste" is questionable (I have yet to understand why Gimli has to burp so often--is there something about Dwarves that I've missed :confused: ?) But if the occurrence of "parasitic meanings" is a sign of bad taste, then Tolkien had the worst taste of any author I know! His writing has been spawning them for going on 50 years now, so if it's a "trap," he fell right in. But I think he chose to write that way, because to do otherwise would have imposed his own interpretations on the reader.

One of the main concepts I've used in any Tolkien commentary over the years (from l-o-n-g before the movies :p ) is that in order for his applicability to be possible, he had to leave a lot of things open for the individual reader to interpret--otherwise, you get the "supposed domination of the author" as allegory rather than the "freedom of the reader" as applicability. IMVHO, this takes a lot of guts on the part of the author, and not too many accomplish it, because the author has to be prepared to have readers interpret things differently than he or she would. JRRT was bewildered by some of his fans during the 1960's (I think it was the 'shrooms and the pipeweed :) ), but the only times I've seen him to be upset--in letters and other recorded accounts--are times when someone has misinterpreted his writing because there are some "facts" in the story that they haven't taken into consideration, making their interpretation inconsistent with the "real history." One of my favorites among his letters is a response to a reader who's told him how she understands one of the characters in LotR, and he replies along the lines of, "Oh, I see what you mean. I never thought of it that way!" He's giving us the history and it's up to us to figure out what it means--or if it means anything at all. Because of that, it's going to mean different things to different people, which IMVVHO is exactly how he meant it to be.


/lit rant



So, anyway, if I were asked if I thought there was supposed to be a spiritual feeling to certain Osgiliath scenes, I'd say probably yes. If I were asked if I thought PJ specifically meant to refer to St. Sebastian, I'd say, "Huh?" IMHO, that connection has come completely from the viewers.

Edit: Geez--three posts snuck in there while I wasn't looking! Don't know that I have much more to add, though, except to re-affirm that I don't think the movies have created the question of Frodo & Sam's sexuality--that's been there since the book was written and the movies have just given more people the opportunity to wonder about it.

If you take "not conventionally masculine" in the context of motion picture actors, I'd say it applies to Elijah. But as with any other aspect of the movie, I don't think that should have been an issue. If PJ had passed up the one person able to play this role because, "Well, you know, he doesn't look enough like a real guy, and people already have this funny notion about Frodo and Sam," that would have been the mistake!



-----And, Erendis, thanks for pointing out that with Elijah, Sean, and Andy together we could get some insightful commentary--I hadn't thought of it in that light, but now I'm really looking forward to hearing it :) :) !

I don't find the use of the term 'parasitic meanings' particularly useful. After all, Shakespeare used the themes and imagery (and some of the characters) for many of his plays from other works, or from folk tales or history, because it made them accessible to his audiences - that doesn't lessen the power of his work. My son just took Norse Lit in Uni, and he was constantly coming home to tell me about something Tolkien had 'stolen' from the Norse lit tradition - a name, or a theme, or a heroic construct, or an image. Of course artists and filmmakers use the inconography and common understandings of their audiences to enhance and underscore their work - they are never working in isolation from that 'collective unconscious', and the cultural constructs of their time. This doesn't lessen or undermine the power of their work, if they are able to move past what has been done before, and create something extraordinary themselves that uses, but does not depend upon, these constructs. I believe both Shakespeare and Tolkien did this, in spades, and I think PJ has come close to doing it with his own work.

Unless they have pursued higher education, or come from a particular 'class' where they are steeped in it from early on, much of the population is largely unfamiliar with much of art history and literature anyway. This makes the use of images which hearken back to these themes not 'common' or 'parasitic', but more likely to rely on an unconscious response to the images (which carry their own strength) rather than a learned, conscious linkage to any particular inconographic heritage.

That's all I have time for, though not all I have to say. ;)

Hmmm... after reading Narya's post (which I completely agree with, BTW), I'm wondering if I misunderstood "parasitic meanings." I understood them to be meanings growing out of the work, rather than images the work was growing out of. :confused: Although it can be a good discussion from either side. (Things were gettin' a little slow here, weren't they, Brunhild ;) ?)

I always find it interesting to hear from the art history side of the fence when topics like this come up, since my background is on the theological side.

Re. the DVD cast commentary:
I was *very* happy reading that Elijah, Sean and Andy are doing their commentary alone, too. I *hope* that means we're in for more thoughtful and interesting information and backstory about their scenes and the way they did them, and what they wanted to communicate, and what the direction was, than we ever got with FotR. Not that I don't love the commentary to FotR, but there is much fun and relatively little actual discussion or information about the things I'd like to hear more about.
----------

From tg
Anyway, the article I was reading mentioned that "The legend of St. Sebastian is important in art, and there is a vast iconography." I'm beginning to think there should be a male equivalent of "angst maven," and that the title could be given to a lot of the artists who made this type of painting. There are an awful lot of martyrs, and even a lot of interesting legends, so why paint Sebastian so often unless it's because of the "angst appeal"? I wouldn't be surprised if any underlying "symbolism" of showing Frodo in a similar light is based more on angst than on saintliness. I very much agree with you in this, tg. I remember visiting the Prado Art museum in Madrid a few years back, doing the "tourist thing" - and coming out practically reeling from all the depicted pain, suffering and torment. I felt I had walked through a nightmare, a torture chamber; - painting upon painting depicting the horrible torment and deaths of saints and martyrs, crucifixions, and so forth. Now these are outstanding works of catholic art from many centuries, and not being a catholic myself (nor being especially versed in art history either :o ) I am sure I do not get the full religious significance nor contemplative meaning that catholics may have experienced upon seing those paintings. Nevertheless, the care taken to depict the torments suffered also indicates to me more than a certain dwelling on the pure "angst appeal" aspect of the saint's or martyr's experience. (In addition to also emphazizing their patience and serenity in suffering for a worthy cause. )

Both the underlying general theme of patient suffering and self-sacrifice *and* the very evident angst IMO are reverberating when comparisons are made between various of the FilmFrodo scenes and Christian religious art, independent of any direct religious context or interpretation.

In predominantly Lutheran countries I should think many may recognize St.Sebastian as a saint, but not be able to distinguish him clearly from other suffering saints. And although I've personally seen enough Sebastian paintings to recognize him, I do not know what he's the official patron saint of (if anything) , and I had no idea gays had adopted him as their unofficial patron saint either. So I don't think that's why he's singled out for these comparisons, at least not in non-catholic communities, and as for the handsome beefcake aspect: - he may not be very clothed, but.... urgh! He's dying, in torment and pain.... what's lustful about that? :eek: *Please* don't answer!!

However, as Brunhild's previous link showed, he certainly has been depicted in works of art often up through the centuries, perhaps especially so because of that obvious "Angst appeal", and so he's quite well known that way. (In countries where Christianity is and has been the predominant religion, that is; - I'm sorry, ainon!) IMO that's one simple reason his image may come more readily to mind over here than other less (?) angst-ridden or suffering saints.

Be that as it may, the gif that Deluby made of the little Osgiliath Angelic scene in the TTT trailer has been my wallpaper for half a year now, I think. And despite some scattered odd looks from the family I do not intend changing it either. I think it's one of the most beautiful and haunting images from the LotR films (or trailers, since it's not even *in* the film.)


I'm sure I have something to say about other matters under discussion too, I just have to figure out exactly what....

Whoah, now this *is* something I know about! :)

Very interesting comments about St. Sebastian and his martyrdom as a parallel to poor Frodo's suffering. The site that Brunhild linked to is as authoritative as they come! And what a list of images are there!

Just wanted to chime in and say that most of the images of Saint Sebastian were not made to be pretty (or beefcake :eek: ) but to inspire devotion to a very important saint. There are lots of images of Sebastian because he is an important saint, not because he was pretty. (though in the Renaissance some artists used his iconography to show off their skill in anatomy). And it is true that Seb didn't die of the arrows. He was nursed back to health by another saint (Irene, I think; there is a very lovely painting of this subject by Georges de la Tour, I believe). No, he died by decapitation, I believe, as that was the most efficient way to dispatch someone you wanted to get rid of. Ironically, Sebastian was the patron saint of archers :rolleyes: in the early modern period.

It is news to me that the gay and lesbian community have adopted him as a patron.

It is true that the history of art is full of images of saints suffering. I've been in museums that would have inspired the Marquis de Sade! But the point of the suffering is to explain how the individual became a saint: that suffering--the saint's passion--is likened to Christ's passion and it is part of what makes a person saintly. (So the comparison of Frodo's suffering to either a saint or to Christ is appropriate.) And the extremes of suffering endured by saints is supposed to inspire Catholics to persevere in their own less drastic difficulties. As the suffering endured by Frodo is an inspiration in itself.

Maeg: thanks so much for pointing out the lights in Frodo's eyes at Lothlorien. I can't believe there is something I haven't yet seen in FoTR! The care taken in these films is astonishing.

And I agree that hearing Sean, Andy and Elijah comment on their contributions to TTT will be most enlightening. :)

It also pays to remember when looking at gory depictions of martyrdom that these paintings were done at a time when most of the population could not read, and had to get their spiritual education in picture form. Like Peaceweaver said, these images were meant to inspire devotion and lend courage to one's own spiritual journey and what better way to do so in an illiterate populace than with moving and unforgettable imagery? Also, consider that life was hard "back then!" The people of these times were well-acquainted with suffering in a way that we (with luck!) are not. A lovely, beatific Christ or martyred saint might not have been much of an inspiration to people who lived daily with bloody wars, pestilence, famine...and plain old poor hygiene!

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian
Of course artists and filmmakers use the inconography and common understandings of their audiences to enhance and underscore their work - they are never working in isolation from that 'collective unconscious', and the cultural constructs of their time. This doesn't lessen or undermine the power of their work...Unless they have pursued higher education, or come from a particular 'class' where they are steeped in it from early on, much of the population is largely unfamiliar with much of art history and literature anyway. This makes the use of images which hearken back to these themes not 'common' or 'parasitic', but more likely to rely on an unconscious response to the images (which carry their own strength) rather than a learned, conscious linkage to any particular inconographic heritage.

I'm highlighting the above because it's so true, and I think it explains a great deal of the global, multi-cultural appeal of LoTR, both in print and in film. Tolkien (and Peter Jackson, adapting Tolkien) tapped into both a "collective unconscious," and what I like to think of as universal truths, such as sacrifice, devotion and love. There are deep spiritual elements in Tolkien's work, but it's not a pure Christian allegory...if it were, it's doubtful that it would have such wide appeal. PJ has taken these elements and put them into visual form, not in a parasitic or opportunistic way, but in the way of an artist building upon a collective unconscious and an "iconographic heritage." I think the best moments of PJ's films are those that are infused with the meaningful themes and imagery that transcend culture, religion and education, and prompt the immediate, "unconscious response" that Narya has mentioned, and that Maeglian has found so "beautiful and haunting."

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Whoah, now this *is* something I know about! :)
There are lots of images of Sebastian because he is an important saint, not because he was pretty. (though in the Renaissance some artists used his iconography to show off their skill in anatomy). And it is true that Seb didn't die of the arrows. He was nursed back to health by another saint (Irene, I think; there is a very lovely painting of this subject by Georges de la Tour, I believe). No, he died by decapitation, I believe, as that was the most efficient way to dispatch someone you wanted to get rid of. Ironically, Sebastian was the patron saint of archers :rolleyes: in the early modern period.
And for many of the early martyrs, why certain ones became "important" is a mystery that may never be solved. There are a few (Perpetua and Felicity come to mind, and Ignatius of Antioch) whom we do know something about from written accounts of the time. But others, including Sebastian, became "important" largely through the legends that grew up around them. Legends usually evolve from a grain of truth about a person, but that original "grain" for, say, Sebastian, is hard to unearth. We do know he existed (unlike St. Christopher), and was a martyr, but that's about it. So you get variations--for example, being clubbed to death in one account and beheaded in another. But, as peaceweaver said in a part of her post I didn't quote, the important thing isn't the legend but the lesson--courage, perseverance, being willing to give your life for what you believe is right--which certainly does bring a certain hobbit to mind...

It is true that the history of art is full of images of saints suffering. I've been in museums that would have inspired the Marquis de Sade!
Never having been there, my hunch would be that Maeg's description of the Prado would be an example, as what's meaningful does depend partly on the culture and, historically, meditation on the physical sufferings of Christ and the saints has been especially important in Spain (not only there, but it's one place).

As the suffering endured by Frodo is an inspiration in itself.


IMHO, that idea of "inspiration" is the key, with different people, cultures, and times, finding inspiration in different things. A piece of art that might make, say, a 21st century American just think "Ewww..." could be highly inspirational to someone else. That's why there's such a variety of saints, and why the Church still canonizes "new" ones. ----- And, to go back to an older discussion, IMHO it's one reason Tolkien created such a variety of characters; different readers find inspiration in different characters. (And sometimes their "followers" can get as heated about it as some people can about religion!)

from Elda--who beat me to the post :)
There are deep spiritual elements in Tolkien's work, but it's not a pure Christian allegory...if it were, it's doubtful that it would have such wide appeal.
IMHO, this was possible for Tolkien because he deeply understood and respected more than one mythology (using that word without bias toward whether the mythology is "true" or not). OTOH, C.S. Lewis, for example, put characters from Greek mythology into Narnia, but there isn't that sense of knowing and respecting the other thought system that I think we get from Tolkien regarding his "northernness." And one idea I've never thought of til now--so won't vouch for it's lasting worth :p --is that having a truly deep knowledge, understanding, and respect for even one world view that's different from your own would bring some level of recognition of those "universal" aspects that all kinds of people inherently relate to. (And Tolkien did have at least some knowledge about more than "northernness." He based much of Gondorian culture on Egypt, for example.)

Faculty is :cool:! I want to agree with everyone :k.

tgshaw--I'm sure that you've read the Epistles. That's a fairly important book in the New Testament :D :D. (Calling them fanfiction was my take at questionable jokes ;).)

Narya--A 'parasitic meaning' is an impression inadvertedly created by a work of art that is somehow inconsistent with the work's purpose. (Bored of the Rings by Harvard Lampoon is a nice compendium of harmless 'parasitic meanings' in LOTR :p.) To explain how such things occur from 'mixed-up contexts', let me say that an exalted Renaissance spirituality in a country gentleman prone to fraternise with his gardener may raise more than one question and eyebrow :D :p.
Posted by tgshaw
As far as Frodo and Sam's master-servant relationship, IMHO that was a minefield PJ & Co. had to walk through ...

What minefield? It's fiction, fgs. What is wrong with Sancho Panza being a servant of Don Quixote? :)

Yay! Here comes another inspiring post by tgshaw! I can spout more blasphemy! :cool:
Posted by tgshaw
... a variety of characters; different readers find inspiration in different characters ...
That's a perspective from which one may compare FotR and North :eek:. Both films cast EJW as "Sensitive Everyman in the Land of Haunting Childhood Stereotypes." North has failed and FotR has succeeded because people want respect for their long-cherished knights and bogeymen :D.

Originally posted by erendis
I wonder if they got David Wenham to comment. Oh wait, what am I thinking...:rolleyes:.


LOL, erendis! So, does anyone know - is he on it?

Good to see you, Narya! I'll just second what you said, and wait patiently for you to have time to post more. ;)


Originally posted by Maeglian

He's dying, in torment and pain.... what's lustful about that? *Please* don't answer!!

Oh, fine. I spent the past week researching what causes the connection between sex and pain in some people's minds, and you forbid me to discuss it. Humph. :p

Somehow I knew this conversation would draw Peaceweaver out. :D

tgshaw,
What is a "Carmelite" saint? I've heard of Carmelite nuns too, I think, so maybe I should ask, "What's a Caremlite?" I hope I spelled that right; I'm too rushed to go back and check. Oh, well, alright, and I'm lazy, too.

Brunhild,
I *knew* those were the Epistles you were referring to. :rolleyes: Here's a good trout for your trouble. Want some almonds with that?

Sheryl

From Narya
My son just took Norse Lit in Uni, and he was constantly coming home to tell me about something Tolkien had 'stolen' from the Norse lit tradition - a name, or a theme, or a heroic construct, or an image.Narya, any chance you might ask him the main ones? I get this horrible feeling I should have identified more in this context than I have. Oh, the names for sure, Frodo, Thengel, Gamling, Vidfara.... And when Eowyn talks about the looting and burning in Westfold, this earned her a few surprised snickers in the threatre every time because a Norwegian county is actually named Vestfold. Some of the poetry has a true ring of Norse poetry made in honour of kings and heros. And Bilbo's trolls are the very gist of Norwegian fairy tales. But as for themes and heroic constructs, although they have a Norse "feel" to them, still I've believed they were not specifically Norse but well; - Anglo Saxon or more "universal" and found in many cultures?
There may be parallells to themes in the sagas of kings and probably the Icelandic clan sagas, and certainly to the myths surrounding Siegfried, the dragon slaying / Sigurd Fåvnesbane..... Hmmm. But are those themes as used by Tolkien specifically Norse? You've given me something to think more about! :)


Oh, and I can fully attest to the master/servant topic being a minefield. :D Fairly soon after I started posting over on Imly I made some IMO quite innocent comments about that and was met with such heated responses I nearly stopped posting... (However I'm far too gabby so I kept going). :rolleyes:


Thanks to everyone for very interesting and enlightening (and beautiful!) posts on the saints topic! :)


Edit: Sheryl, for the very first time I almost felt the urge to send a small trout in your direction, but I think I shall just give you a LOL instead. Good to see you, btw. Hope you're doing OK. :)

SHERYL!!!! *hugs* :k :)

And a :k for peaceweaver too. :)

erendis:
Poor Elijah, the most professional and important actor in the whole MOVIE for gods sake, was reduced only to reacting to those two hammy jokers with lame filler like "thanks I thought it was a good scream" or "Oh look it's Mr. Safety" and "okayokay enough about the Tig thing."

Actually, it was Elijah who had the most to say during that commentary - it just so happens though that Dom & Billy are the wittier pair. The tig story was something Elijah himself brought up, and his last line about that had to do with how crushed he'd been to learn that it had all been a lie. ;) But the best last line belongs to Billy: "Basically Dom and I are liars." :D

What I think is that Elijah isn't the sort who talks about his own work or motivations or whatever - unless he's asked. He's no Nicolas Cage. Or Ian McKellen for that matter. The little anecdotes Elijah told in the commentary were the humourous ones about himself, or the thoughtful ones about other people. It was either Dom or Billy who said to him, "Nice reaction" during that pivotal Weathertop angst scream, and Elijah's reply was a very quiet "Thanks".

Put him with Andy Serkis, and for all you know you get him politely deferring to Andy, so that Andy may have rightful recognition as the underappreciated thespian. The hobbit boys seemed to be pretty equal however, and were so comfortable together, and played off each other magnificently.

I'm just paraphrasing from memory, but this was one of those terrific ROTFLMAO moments from the actors' commentary as far as I'm concerned. :D

The scene: fellowship approaching the doors of Moria and Gandalf thinking about how to get the door open. Dom remarks how in the book it was Merry who solved the riddle, and he's quite rankled that the honour has now gone to Frodo. He was very upset, he claims, and had some things to say about that. Elijah sounds concerned, and says he knew nothing of this? Dom replies oh no, he would never blame Elijah for such a thing; he went straight to the PTB, the higher ups, demanding to know why such a change was warranted. And what did those higher-ups say? Dom replies: "They said, 'We want more of Elijah and less of you.'" :D :D :D

Brunhild: no, I didn't know of the gay association with St Sebastian. Is it world wide? I wonder if PJ knew. My gut reaction that it is highly unlikely that he was making a deliberate reference to this partly because it doesn't seem to me to quite accord with comments he has made on directing the Sam and Frodo scenes and partly because despite our fairly liberal laws the depth of anti gay feeling in NZ and particularly in NZ men is astounding. This assumes of course that Mr Jackson is a typical product of NZ. You know; in many ways I think he is.

I have just loved reading this page. I am technically not actually here but the time spent (illicitly) reading these thoughts and comments was well spent. :)

I think tg, erendis, peaceweaver and Narya have pretty much said what was in my mind so I'll just thank them for their clarity and go.:k

Ainon: I haven't actually watched all the dvd commentaries (my budget dvd player is a very recent acquisition and I don't actually own the FoTR dvd :eek: actually I don't own any dvds at all....) but your last paragraph made me really laugh and so this dvd is on my List of Things To Buy ASAP. Cool.

CoF discussion, but really no spoilers


Not to detract from the art history/religious symbolism discussion (which I'm following with interest, but which alas! I have nothing to add to as usual), but I got to see 'Chain of Fools' last night YAY! And Sheryl made me promise to post my review here this time.;) I thought it was great. They probably could have made the whole timeline thing a bit easier to understand...there were a couple of places where it jumped around and it took me a second to figure out exactly when we were.:o BUT. Evil Scotty (the kid who hates everybody) was awesome, and so was Miss Cocoa, and I've always liked Jeff Goldblum. And of course Elijah was wonderful.;) I kept catching myself thinking, "I can't believe that this is the same guy who played Frodo not-too-long ago!" And of course that's the point, because he's such a good actor that he can do that...but did anyone catch any Froshadowings (or Echfros) in this one? I was very happy to see him in such a completely non-Frodo-esque role, though...it would be awful if he'd been stereotyped after LOTR.:( (Would have been nice if people could actually see CoF, though...:rolleyes: ) Anyway. I don't have anything more insightful to say (surprise surprise!) but Prim, I'm up for a good CoF discussion if you are, as soon as you have time.;) Also I noticed a distinct lack of extended walking sequences in this movie...always a good thing.:D

Edit: Oh and guess what! imdb.com has three "memorable quotes" from CoF, and all three of them are Mikey's.:cool: Even if they did call him "Mickey" for the first one.:rolleyes: Check it out (http://us.imdb.com/Quotes?0194368)

Prim--I'm 98% sure that PJ did not want any gay associations with Frodo and Sam whatsoever. (I'm leaving 2% out for his wacky sense of humour ;).) It is conceivable, however, that a certain combination of his visual and contextual decisions might have inadvertedly triggered or enforced such associations. That's why I've been talking about parasitic (i.e., unwanted) meanings emerging from messed-up contexts.

ainon--EJW's participation in the actors' commentary reminds me once again of his role in North :p.

Maeglian--My favourite LOTR-Norse identification is a completely non-serious one. When movie-Frodo is blindfolded by Faramir's men, it's difficult not to think of Svanhild :D. This needs explanation, I guess ;). Svanhild, Sigurd's daughter, had exceedingly beautiful eyes. So when her enemies decided to trample Svanhild with horses, she had to be blindfolded because the horses dared not tread on her otherwise. :(

Originally posted by Brunhild
tgshaw--I'm sure that you've read the Epistles. That's a fairly important book in the New Testament
Well, see that just shows how ignorant I am of fanfic :o . I figured it was something like The Secret Diaries, of which I have read the bits people used in their sigs--every time I watch FotR now, I always feel sorry for poor, misunderstood Ringwraith #5 (hmmm... that kind of fits with the other discussion, doesn't it :rolleyes: ?)

Narya--A 'parasitic meaning' is an impression inadvertedly created by a work of art that is somehow inconsistent with the work's purpose. (Bored of the Rings by Harvard Lampoon is a nice compendium of harmless 'parasitic meanings' in LOTR :p.) To explain how such things occur from 'mixed-up contexts', let me say that an exalted Renaissance spirituality in a country gentleman prone to fraternise with his gardener may raise more than one question and eyebrow
Yep, which was one thing I was trying to say in my post yesterday--that IMHO Tolkien did the opposite of trying to avoid the "traps" of unintended meanings. I think he purposely left a lot of things open to interpretation--because he was writing history, and that's how history works. IMHO, the movies work best when PJ sticks with that idea--the shot in the boat vs. Sam's UN speech, for example.

As far as increased fraternisation in the movie, I don't know how, say, the Green Dragon scene on the SE would play out in a country with a stronger class structure, but in the U.S. fraternising with your employer wouldn't necessarily cause any raised eyebrows--depending on the distance between the employer and employee (a janitor fraternizing with the CEO of IBM might cause some gossip). As far as non-bookreaders would know from the movie, Sam might have a "lawn and garden service" where various people pay him for doing their gardening. [And I just realized that I switched between the Brit and Yank spellings of fraternization in that paragraph--see what posting here has done to me :eek: .]

What minefield? It's fiction, fgs. What is wrong with Sancho Panza being a servant of Don Quixote?
Don't know if I can speak to Don Quixote specifically--BTW, doesn't Bored of the Rings use that comparison?--but fiction as a minefield?!? OMG, forever and always :eek: ! IMHO, it wouldn't be doing its job if it wasn't (which is one reason I'm glad Tolkien didn't particularly try to avoid them).

Yay! Here comes another inspiring post by tgshaw! I can spout more blasphemy!
I have no idea what you're talking about :rolleyes: :p :rolleyes: . Actually, since I always click onto "last post" when I come to this thread, the first thing I saw was the couple of lines about the horses having to be blindfolded to trample someone and I thought somebody had posted another saint legend--sounds just like something that would end up in one of them :p . (Universal themes ;) ?)

That's a perspective from which one may compare FotR and North :eek:. Both films cast EJW as "Sensitive Everyman in the Land of Haunting Childhood Stereotypes." North has failed and FotR has succeeded because people want respect for their long-cherished knights and boogiemen
Ooohhh, I think North failed for a lot more reasons than that. (I know some people here like it, but I've got it ranked at #19 of 21 EJW movies on my website--for a number of reasons :( .)

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One thing I noticed in the FotR actors' commentary was that none of the actors talked much about their own acting--but they talked about each other's. I think Orlando Bloom said more about Elijah's acting than the hobbits did. There don't seem to be any big egos in the lot--even things like Dom's "I think I'm particularly handsome there," were more self-effacing than self-promoting. Someone mentioned that aspect of the casting a week or two ago, and I totally agree--IIRC, PJ did give consideration to the fact that he was picking people who'd have to work and live together for 18 months. A big ego could have been disastrous (not as disastrous as two big egos, I suppose).

------------------

And Bridget--thanks for your review of CofF. I loved it, too. In fact, part of what I loved about it was the "nonlinear" storytelling that jumped around in time :p . The only other thing I'd say differently than you did is to mention that it was actually made before LotR, although not widely released :mad: .

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Maeg--JRRT's "northernness" embraced more than Norwegian legends. He used the Icelandic Eddas as a source for some things(the names of the Dwarves in The Hobbit, for instance). His field was basically the literature of any language that contributed to early English--which, given the nature of English, is a pretty broad field :eek: ! And, of course, anything he used was source material, and he changed it to greater or lesser degrees--he uses the same name for Venus as a Norse legend does, but the legend he puts behind the name is completely different. And as you said, IMHO he uses the source material to address ideas and themes that are much more universal. Like any good fiction writer, he used what he was familiar with to say what he wanted to say.

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Just scrolled back to see if I missed anything & saw Sheryl's question about Carmelites. Will have to get back to that later, since, as usual, I've been here longer than I should have been to get to work on time...

Mel,
I managed to post without even acknowledging your return, much less congratulating you on the arrival of your little one! I repent in dust and ashes. That's what I get for posting in haste. Which I am doing again, but I had to pop in and say, "Congrats, Mel!"

Thanks for the CoF review, Bridget. Glad I didn't have to twist your arm *too* hard for that. ;)

Sheryl

Spoilers for RotK, sort of
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Not that this hasn't been posted elsewhere already, but wow! We don't have too much info to tide us over this current dry spell, so the Frodo in orc armour action figure is really something!

Frodo in orc armour (http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/780/view/6523)

And the close-up with the really blue eyes isn't bad either:

Close-up (http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/780/view/6524)

Bet those will really please Elijah, fond as he is of having his very own action figures.
The orc armour looks way :cool: Looking forward so much to seeing this in the film!!! Especially nice touch with the orc-shoes looking like nothing but leather and rags, to hide the furry feet. And it's still the Sam doll that brandishes Sting, btw.

Buuuuut it doesn't *really* please me, because that figure still seems to have both shirt and vest/jacket intact under the armour - post CU !!! Grump..... Doesn't bode well for the CU scene......... Grump!

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End spoiler stuff


Brunhild, I just loved that Svanhild identification! The funny thing is, I haven't read the original saga involving Svanhild, just a summary of it, and in that summary it is said she was blindfolded because the horses wouldn't touch her as long as she stared at them with her "piercing and sharp glance". Now considering the meaning of the name Maeglin, I'm not unhappy about that particular identification even so! :cool:


Maeg--JRRT's "northernness" embraced more than Norwegian legends. He used the Icelandic Eddas ... Well, most Norwegians would firmly consider the Eddas part of their national heritage along with Snorri's saga of kings. It's called "Norse", you know, and so there's no need to go into lots of national details and the historic relations between Iceland and Norway, and all of that. :D Personally I'm more than happy to call it Icelandic, as long as it was written down at all, providing so much literary and cultural backstory for us that might otherwise have been lost for ever.


ainon; - I bow down in awe before your detailed memories of the cast commentary and the way EJW comes across there as so considerate, kind, and humble! :) Still, if he himself won't talk much about his acting, I'm still holding out hope that Sean and Andy will do just that! ...The danger may be that all of them keep too much focus on Gollum and his portrayal, with the novelty of the animation technique and what it required of all of them etc.

Oh, I'm looking forward to it, plain and simple, even if they never get around to discussing nothing much except Gollum's loin cloth! :D


Oh - How could I forget? :o
Bridget, thank you for the CoF review. I'm very glad you liked it!!
And sure, it contains a mega Froshadowing: As the senator falls to his death, Mikey the bellboy screams: Noooooooooooo!


Edit:
Awww... where is everyone? Here I am all up in arms about how great that orc costume looks, wondering whether New Line might release some pictures now that the look of those costumes is known anyway.... and it's so totally quiet in here!

Luckily, the Harem shares my views just now so they're having a big-time frenzy! :)

Originally posted by Maeglian
Spoilers for RotK, sort of
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Buuuuut it doesn't *really* please me, because that figure still seems to have both shirt and vest/jacket intact under the armour - post CU !!! Grump..... Doesn't bode well for the CU scene......... Grump!

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Don't suppose there's any chance that's the leather orc shirt that Frodo wears under the armor in the book? The collar looks suspiciously like the one he's been wearing for about six months by then (Phew! Hopefully Sam did some laundry at Lorien :p )... but I can't figure out the sleeves :confused: . And I can't identify his jacket/waistcoat that others have seen :confused: (there's a similar discussion going on at the bulletin board :) ).




End spoiler stuff




Edit:
Awww... where is everyone? Here I am all up in arms about how great that orc costume looks, wondering whether New Line might release some pictures now that the look of those costumes is known anyway.... and it's so totally quiet in here!
:D You must have been editing while I was posting--both hit the board at exactly the same time, I noticed :) . Not that I had anything enlightening to add... :rolleyes:

Posted by tgshaw
He [JRRT] based much of Gondorian culture on Egypt,

... and the riddle game in The Hobbit on the Theban story of Oedipus and the Sphinx ;) thus adding an entirely new dimension to the current frenzy at the Harem, if you take my meaning :p. BTW, 'Oedipus' means 'the one with swollen feet' :cool:.

I couldn't resist posting two more pictures of talented young men (EJW and JB):
http://i.imdb.com/Photos/Events/1606/ElijahWood_Vespa_628968_400.jpg http://www.geocities.com/Athens/8926/Brodsky/pics/Brodsky-13.jpg

Edit: If the second image doesn't load properly at once, please request it 'explicitely' (by right-clicking etc.).

Originally posted by Maeglian
Awww... where is everyone? Here I am all up in arms about how great that orc costume looks, wondering whether New Line might release some pictures now that the look of those costumes is known anyway.... and it's so totally quiet in here!

Well, the problem is you're doling out this news while this half of the world is asleep! I mean, the timing is so wrong, y'know? You gotta keep up with us! :D


Spoilers for RotK, sort of
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Buuuuut it doesn't *really* please me, because that figure still seems to have both shirt and vest/jacket intact under the armour - post CU !!! Grump..... Doesn't bode well for the CU scene......... Grump!


Since all I care is that there is a CU scene, I can't say that I can build up any effort to be concerned. ;) But as I think of it, I'm getting all mushy at the idea that Sam could have actually salvaged Frodo's shirt after all, that somehow that was something of Frodo's that he could get back. Oh well, I'm not making much sense. Thank you, Maeg -- this is a great start to spoiler season. We hope. :) And I like looking at this Frodo figure's face. A nice Elijah-ish face.





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End spoiler stuff






Originally posted by Brunhild
It is conceivable, however, that a certain combination of his visual and contextual decisions might have inadvertedly triggered or enforced such associations. That's why I've been talking about parasitic (i.e., unwanted) meanings emerging from messed-up contexts.

I'm still thorougly confused. As I understand it, comparisons are being made between paintings and stills from the movie, but that can't work for the scenes themselves. In-context, the scene is Frodo looking up at the coming Nazgul. So to place any other meaning to a still of Frodo looking skywards means the audience choosing to take things out of context, right? So how does that reflect back on the filmmakers? :confused:


Just a brief history of slash fic, as postulated to me by a friend from another fandom ... it all began with Captain Kirk and Mr. Spock. Keeping in mind that James T. Kirk was as heterosexual as you could get. :D So even if Frodo were played by someone as oh, heterosexually unambigious as Hugh Jackman (;) Bridget), you'd still have slashfics. And even if Elijah Wood looked like Hugh Jackman, you'd still have the same stuff going round.


Bridget - :cool: review. I think I'll go home and rewatch CofF in anticipation of Prim's discourse on it. ;) Take care, Prim!

Actually, I've already run across a mention of X-men slash, between Wolverine (Hugh Jackman) and I forget who else. (I didn't go looking for it, and I certainly wouldn't read it!:o ) Anyway - I don't think Elijah's looks or anything PJ and co. did or didn't do could have any effect on the proliferation of slash out there. It's not just Frodo and Sam - it's just about every other LOTR pairing you can think of (and some you wouldn't!:o ), plus Harry Potter, Star Wars...everything. Frodo/Sam was inevitable, I think - and it was sure out there before TTT came out and we got that shot of Frodo in Osgiliath.

Maeglian - duh! I totally missed the "Noooo!" froshadowing.:o :o

Do y'know till this moment..and I've been through the whole Trek thing from the get go... that I never thought of Kirk and Spock as slashy? Ok..Ok...I'm slow. I thought their friendship and devotion a wonderful thing but sexuality never entered into it. My whole buggaboo with this whole thing is why does devotion and loyalty and as Sean Astin called it, referring to Frodo and Sam, love without eros, have to be labeled as any kind of sexual thing?

This type of a-sexual love has gone on forever. Love for friends, family and ideals and the like. Not EVERYTHING is sexual. Why does something simple and beautiful have to be twisted into something it's not?

Originally posted by Hobmom
Do y'know till this moment..and I've been through the whole Trek thing from the get go... that I never thought of Kirk and Spock as slashy? Ok..Ok...I'm slow. I thought their friendship and devotion a wonderful thing but sexuality never entered into it.
When it comes to slash fanfic, I don't think that really matters. As Bridget mentioned, unlikely pairings are as much fair game as likely ones--so, Hobmom, I wouldn't say you're "slow," just that you respect the characters enough to take them the way they were meant to be. And, IMHO, "the way they were meant to be" is the key thing here. If Frodo & Sam, or Kirk & Spock, were meant to be gay (or even written in such a way that it's plausible), I'd consider it a legitimate area to be explored... but they're not--which, for Frodo & Sam, is even clearer in the book than it is in the movies.

Sam & Frodo are a bit different from Kirk & Spock in that there has been serious discussion over the years on a possible sexual aspect to their relationship. Even with F&S, though, I agree with Bridget's statement that to the people who want to turn the relationship into something it isn't, it wouldn't make any difference movie-wise who the actors were (a good point which I hadn't consciously put together--thanks, Bridget). In fact, if I imagine two really "manly" men (stereotypically movie-actor speaking, of course :rolleyes: ) embracing in the boat, I can see that giving more fuel to the people who write slash than what we've got.

My whole buggaboo with this whole thing is why does devotion and loyalty and as Sean Astin called it, referring to Frodo and Sam, love without eros, have to be labeled as any kind of sexual thing?

This type of a-sexual love has gone on forever. Love for friends, family and ideals and the like. Not EVERYTHING is sexual. Why does something simple and beautiful have to be twisted into something it's not?
Because that's how some people's minds work :confused: ? I do think--or hope--that it's a minority, even with Frodo & Sam. IMVHO, the Internet gives such an unprecedented opportunity to put up anything to be read by anyone anywhere in the world [ :eek: --to this old codger] that a small minority can look like a larger part of the population than they really are. In RL, I've never heard anyone claim that F&S's love is anything but agape (except in lit discussions, and those don't usually last too long because there's enough evidence in the book to logically argue the asexual side). A few posters have reported hearing snickers in the theater during the boat scene, but I never have--through 22 theater viewings of FotR.

If I stack up everything I don't like in both FotR and TTT movies, it wouldn't come close to equalling my gratitude that PJ was brave enough to give us characters who show true emotions--whether in the boat scene, the mourning scene after Moria, etc., instead of avoiding it because it might be "misinterpreted." If it challenges some viewers to re-think how they define "love," that's just one more positive thing that's come from LotR.

Originally posted by tgshaw
... but they're not [meant to be gay]--which, for Frodo & Sam, is even clearer in the book than it is in the movies.
Yep, which was the thing I was trying to say in my post that has (inadvertedly ;) ) provoked this lengthy (and, most probably, off-topic :D) discussion. I'd say that any sexual innuendo related to Frodo seems to be a 'parasitic' meaning, i.e., something not only unintended but unwanted.

The workings of some people's minds are a dire mystery indeed :rolleyes:. Nonetheless, very few people will turn a relationship into something it isn't when it is completely clear what it is. Therefore, it's plausible that PJ's treatment of Frodo and his relationship with Sam is not lucid enough.

Actually, I wanted to say something about EJW's only (?) 'seriously evil' role in the Homicide episode but forgot what it was :rolleyes:.

Originally posted by Brunhild
Nonetheless, very few people will turn a relationship into something it isn't when it is completely clear what it is.
This is true in many situations, but I don't think this is true in the world of fandom slash fic. From what I've seen while tentatively dipping my toe into fanfic, what Tolkien and PJ presented is actually totally irrelevant to where people are willing to take the characters. As Bridget pointed out, the types of pairings are so numerous and, IMHO, ludicrous, that it doesn't matter diddly what movie or book canon intended, presented, displayed, or left out. Boromir / Frodo, Elrond / Legolas, Gimli / Aragorn - shuffle the names in the whole canon, pull out any two, and someone's written slash about them. (I mean, there are Arwen / Eowyn fics out there - they definitely did not arise because of any ambiguity in any version of movie or book canon!)

Thanks for clarifying parasitic meanings, BTW - I understand now what you were saying! ;)

Sorry, I've forgotten who had the C0fF that was potentially 'available', and since I can't seem to get it here, could you PM me? I'd love to be able to see it, when life slows down for me in a month or so!

Originally posted by Brunhild

Actually, I wanted to say something about EJW's only (?) 'seriously evil' role in the Homicide episode but forgot what it was :rolleyes:.

Whoa, Faculty Synchronicity, Brunhild! For some reason, I was also thinking about that deliciously evil brat he played in 'Homicide' this morning--before ever seeing your post!:eek: :cool: :D

I've read a LOT of fanfic since the Fanfiction thread was started. I trust fellow K-Ders and their recommendations, and it beats wading through the incredible amount of pure junk that gets posted at fanfiction.net to find the gem among the dross.

Book-canon stories that "fill in the gaps", if they are well-written, enhance the whole LOTR experience for me. They are without a doubt my favorite type of fanfic, and some of them are superb--very moving, eloquent, beautiful. I've read a little of the better-written slashfic, but it simply doesn't ring true for me. The good stuff, at least, portrays the Frodo/Sam relationship as one based on love and mutual admiration/respect; but how much better it is, for me at least, to think of their deep love and trust as something between brothers, or closer than brothers. Not to belittle the importance of sex:eek: , but some relationships transcend sex, if you take my meaning.

Sorry to break into the conversation but I just wanted to let any UK Facultiers know that the UK e-bay site has a CoF dvd for sale. Region 2 but shipping from Australia. Search under "Elijah Wood"

As you were.

:D

The workings of some people's minds are a dire mystery indeed

Niphredil seems too tired to take up the challenge so maybe I should stick my neck out here.

To my mind there is an ambiguity in the relationship between Sam and Frodo in the book which is actually not nearly so obvious in the film. When I was younger I was outraged by the idea that Sam and Frodo should be thought to have any sexual relationship. Yes, the discussion has been around a long time. Now I'm older I can't quite understand why I was so outraged, unless it was because I thought, at the time, a same sex relationship was somehow rather dirty.

I'm quite comfortable taking either view. It's a very pure male-bonding love OR there was more to it. To me either interpretation is equally beautiful because both demonstrate the power of love. Sam's love for Frodo towers over the book like a colossus. I cannot see that accepting the possibilty of a sexual dimension to that love in any way cheapens the characters.

Neither do I believe that reading a sexual dimension into the relationship makes either character intrinsically homosexual. There are those who are homosexual and would never consider a heterosexual relationship, but there are those who at some point in their lives have a same sex experience. If I chose to write a story to explore this theme I do not feel that makes me a pervert. Those who wish to read it can do, those who don't can leave it alone.

Originally posted by tgshaw
Because that's how some people's minds work :confused: ? I do think--or hope--that it's a minority, even with Frodo & Sam. IMVHO, the Internet gives such an unprecedented opportunity to put up anything to be read by anyone anywhere in the world [ :eek: --to this old codger] that a small minority can look like a larger part of the population than they really are.

I would hope so, but I somehow doubt that is true. There are literally THOUSANDS of slash sites on the internet - compare that to the measly 3 or 4 (character based) het sites and you will see what I mean.

Seriously, though tg, I am probably one of the racier posters over in the harem and I dislike F/S as well. The rest of you have posted my reasons more eloquently than I have... :k Narya, Goldenberry... but to me it is almost a belittling of their relationship. Some things DO transcend sex... and I just don't see any reason to try and bring Frodo and Sam's moving and meaningful relationship down to that level.

I was reading ST fanfic at 12 and knew people were writing odd stories about Kirk and Spock (Hobmom! how did you miss that?!) even then. If that's what you want to read, go for it. I don't begin to understand the appeal of slash, but then some don't understand the appeal of angst... ;) To each their own, I guess. (:o) The nice thing about Tolkien is that it is ambigous enough that different readers can interpret it in whatever way suits them. It does not make either interpretation wrong, and perhaps makes the story more palatable to a larger audience. IMHO, that is part of what has made this story so popular - it's ability to be interpreted so differently by so many. For my part, there are some interpretations I simply disagree with and some that deviate so far from the characters I grew to love in Tolkien's books that I just would prefer not to read them.

Ariel

Elenya, that was nicely expressed. Although I don't think of Book Frodo and Sam as having a sexual relationship, I don't mind fiction that explores the "what if." For me it's simply an AU. When written sensitively, I think the sexual aspect only intensifies what is already there and can be very satisfying (so to speak!:D ). In fact, when characters take a relationship to that level, I find it courageous and moving rather than not.

To get somewhat back on topic, it is certainly my opinion, and I think many here would agree, that Elijah Wood's attractiveness and lovely characterization have contributed mightily to the sheer volume of LotR slash (and het) fanfic. (For that matter, even fanfic that doesn't center on romance at all has been energized by his and the other actors' performances.) Such a powerful union of actor and character comes along so rarely that it's not surprising to me that many who never thought of Frodo in a romantic way before (myself included) find themselves thinking a bit differently now. :)

Edit: Maeglian, FS! :D

Happy birthday and many happy returns, Luthiea!
Hope you'll be having a wonderful day! :)


On to the topic at hand:

I think both Wood, Astin and McKellen have been asked variants of the "Are Frodo and Sam" gay question; - and their answers all seem to boil down to the same polite: "It's not what Tolkien wrote or intended, it's not my opinion that that particular element is there in the film, but everyone is entitled to their interpretation and that is certainly one valid interpretation."
They are expressing their replies carefully so as not to offend anyone, but on this count I happen to *fully* agree with them; - and with Elenya. :) :)

It's not at all in the book as far as I can read it, it's certainly not in the film. As I've said before I think the films made obvious efforts to show that "they're not gay", so as to "safely" allow themselves the beautiful emotional hugging and crying scenes.....

However, if people reading the book or writing serious fics aiming at interpreting or presenting the aspects of Frodo and Sam's relationship and the love they have for one another choose to include a sexual element in that love they share, I cannot see how that in any way reduces the beauty and strength of the characters and their portrayal, nor taints the sublime and spiritual elements of their story, nor makes it more self-seeking and less nurturing and giving. It's still a beautiful and heartwrenching story of immense love, loss and sacrifice. "Injection of eros", as Sean Astin put it, wouldn't change that to me, unless that suddenly was *all* it was about; - in which case it's not LotR anymore but just some excuse to write slash for the fun of it.

I do believe though that film Frodo's youthful good looks may well have helped contribute to that kind of interpretation, and it's also likely and unfortunately fuelled a lot of badfics that should *never* have seen the light of day. I would hazard the guess that the reason for instance FanFiction.net disallowed both NC-17 and Real Person Fics some time ago unfortunately had everything to do with the way LotR "fandom" was developing. :(

And as for RPS, - I've never read something like that and I *never* will; - the mere knowledge of its excistence almost sent me fleeing the net for good some time ago. It sounds offensive, intrusive, overstepping all boundaries of privacy and propriety. I'm deeply sorry for the actors who have to endure knowing such speculation and fantasizing is being written, and I'm surprised if there really is no legal means to stop it from being published on the net. :mad:


Edit: I simul-posted with Meryl Marie. Seems we are of the same opinion, though! :)

And as for RPS, I've never read something like that and I *never* will. ......It sounds offensive, intrusive, overstepping all boundaries of privacy and propriety

Maeglian, I couldn’t agree more. On the other hand it doesn’t bother me an iota whether EW is heterosexual, homosexual or bisexual. If everyone reacted to such speculation and rumour with “and? your point is?” there would be no oxygen for the rumours. He has a right to live his life as he wants. He has the right to make mistakes, to smoke, to do drugs, to make a mess of his life. Of course success puts huge pressure on an actor, but this is his chosen career and I say good luck to him.

What I don’t ask him to do is to live his life to my image of him.

Originally posted by Meryl Marie
To get somewhat back on topic, it is certainly my opinion, and I think many here would agree, that Elijah Wood's attractiveness and lovely characterization have contributed mightily to the sheer volume of LotR slash (and het) fanfic. (For that matter, even fanfic that doesn't center on romance at all has been energized by his and the other actors' performances.) Such a powerful union of actor and character comes along so rarely that it's not surprising to me that many who never thought of Frodo in a romantic way before (myself included) find themselves thinking a bit differently now. :)

For me that is absolutely true. I've loved the character of Frodo for 20 years, but never, NEVER in a romantic light at all. Tolkien gave me no reason to because he portrays Frodo as asexual. And what's sexy about someone who's only three foot six? :eek:

However ... I always thought there was tremendous scope to introduce a romantic overtone to Frodo, should anyone ever make a film of LOTR -- and trust me, I never thought that would happen!

Step forward, Mr Elijah Jordan Wood. :)

I am sad about what PJ did to Frodo's character in FOTR -- something is missing, not least the maturity and flashes of steeliness: oh OK, you get flashes of them in FOTR but not nearly enough for my liking -- but physically, Lij is the perfect Frodo. That delicate elvish beauty couldn't be more fitting, and suits the purity of the character's soul.

There's no sex in LOTR, only courtly romance. The most emotional relationship in the whole book, without a doubt, is Sam's love for Frodo. Of course one doesn't have to eroticise the F/S relationship in order to find it deeply moving. Of course not! But Elenya, Meryl and Maeglian have nailed it on the head for me as regards the slash issue.

I think PJ has dealt with F/S on screen in the most tactful and beautiful way. I am full of praise for how their relationship is handled. The only quibble is Sam's inconsistent use of 'Mr Frodo', which jars slightly because PJ has played down the class issue. Still ... I'm not sure that matters, filmwise. :)

Oh, and Happy Birthday, Luthiea!!!!!!!! :)

Happy birthday Luthiea!!!

Have a great day (hope you're not working) and can do something special. :)

Happy Birthday, Luth! :k


Originally posted by tgshaw
In fact, if I imagine two really "manly" men (stereotypically movie-actor speaking, of course :rolleyes: ) embracing in the boat, I can see that giving more fuel to the people who write slash than what we've got.

For someone who doesn't read fic, you know a lot, tg. ;) Yes, you're right. The more manly the guy is, the greater the proliferation of slash. In other words, the more desirable the guy is, the more likely he'll be the main character in a slashfic - hence my mentioning Hugh Jackman. :o I back this up by explaining that before I came to LOTRdom, I lurked in various fandoms, with accompanying fanfic addiction. :p Which is actually why I make the conscious decision now not to seek LOTR fic unless one is highly recommended to me -- because I do know what can be found out there, and I'm not interested in accidentally coming across any. As Ariel said, not everyone is interested in angst or tolerates us angst-appreciators either. ;)

Anyway, okay Brunhild - now I understand what you meant. :) But as Narya and Bridget and all have said, nothing PJ did or didn't do affects things. For that matter, I believe the casting of Elijah Wood has nothing to do with 'more slash' either. One of the more ambigious and unbelievable pairings I remember from my previous fandom was the pairing of the hero and the man he knew had murdered his father - both characters very manly, very heterosexual, and clearly enemies based on the show's canon. And I'm going out on a limb when I say this because as I mentioned, I don't check out LOTR fics at all, but I doubt Frodo/Sam could be the most popular slash couple from the LOTR movies; going from my time in other fandoms, I'd guess the more 'macho' heroes like Legolas/Aragorn would be more appealing.

Btw, Hobmom, my apologies for being so flippant with my Kirk/Spock remarks yesterday. :( I'm not a fan of Star Trek, so that particular idea was amusing to me, but of course it's not the coolest bit of news to break to a fan of the characters. *hugs*


Oh, but Pearl, Sam's use of "Mr. Frodo" vs. "Frodo!" in the movies is consistent, and a subtle (IMHO) acknowledgement of their different social classes. Note that Sam never addresses Frodo directly as "Frodo". In fact, the only time you hear Sam using just "Frodo!" is when he's screaming/shouting in panic. :D


So Bridget ... when can we start about XMen then? ;)

I'm sorry. I just have to interrupt the flow and ask: who is Hugh Jackson:confused: Should I know this character/man????

edit: ok. Located a thread in this very forum :rolleyes: so now I know who Mr Jackson is. Umm, so why did Ainon refernce him...???? (oh dear. Going back to check. I'm tired, Facultiers, and a bit behind on this thread's content methinks. See you tomorrow..:) )

Prim.

Lutheia :k Our Young One! :)

HAPPY BIRTHDAY, LUTHEIA!! Have a great one! :cool: :k

From ariel--regarding whether slash writers are a minority:
I would hope so, but I somehow doubt that is true. There are literally THOUSANDS of slash sites on the internet - compare that to the measly 3 or 4 (character based) het sites and you will see what I mean.
But--and I'm "fishing" for opinions here--does that mean there's more slash fanfic than het fanfic, or that more of the slash writers tend to create their own sites, or that the majority of LotR fans are into slash fic? It's the last one I was talking about (sorry if that wasn't clear :o ), and I would hope it's not true, in regard to either book or movie. I know 30-year Tolkien readers who weren't aware of the existence of slash fic until several months ago, and were surprised to hear about it (when a "newcomer" mentioned it in an email Tolkien discussion group I belong to). If the majority of LotR fans (book and/or movie) are into slash [Edit: the "slash for the fun of it" type I mention below], I may have to go find a mountaintop somewhere... :eek: But from what I've seen on discussion boards--even from newbies--I don't see it... Am I totally out of reality :confused: ??

Originally posted by Elenya
When I was younger I was outraged by the idea that Sam and Frodo should be thought to have any sexual relationship. Yes, the discussion has been around a long time. Now I'm older I can't quite understand why I was so outraged, unless it was because I thought, at the time, a same sex relationship was somehow rather dirty.
Not trying to mind-read here, but from my own experience as well as the many and diverse things various people have been "outraged" about when it comes to the movies, IMVVHO when someone feels close to character(s) it's possible to be outraged if something is simply very different from the way that person imagines them to be... I have no idea if that was true for you in this instance, but it certainly happens...

Originally posted by ainon
For someone who doesn't read fic, you know a lot, tg.
Ever seen the two main male--and very different from each other--gay characters on Will and Grace? Guess which one's the star. ;) Seriously--fanfic doesn't exist in a vacuum. When I "extrapolate" from other things going on in the world, I do try to make it clear that that's what I'm doing and leave any comments open to those who specifically know fanfic better (not that you'd misinterpret that, ainon :) , but for those who maybe don't know me as well...)

...going from my time in other fandoms, I'd guess the more 'macho' heroes like Legolas/Aragorn would be more appealing.
IMVHO, this clarifies two very different things being talked about here. One--and what I think started this discussion--is the "slash for the fun of it" side of things, where any pairing--likely or unlikely--isn't likely to be treated as a well-thought-out, sensitive extension of a relationship found in the book and/or movie.

The other is people who do explore a sexual side to the F&S relationship but do it in a way that the writer sees as fitting with the loving (in the highest sense of the word) relationship that we know exists--and I'm including not just fanfic, but thoughtful essays and discussions, which I do read regularly. In my reading of the book, there's enough specific evidence against a sexual relationship that I wouldn't feel true to the book if I added it, even in my privately imagined extentions of the story. But I've been in enough discussions of it to know that there are others who feel differently, and if they can show a real basis for where they're coming from, I can respect that even if I don't agree.

These are two completely different things, and it's too bad that because of the way things are set up (on the internet?) they sometimes get thrown into the same category :( :mad: .

But, for either of them, I don't see the movie treatment of Frodo making much of a contribution (except, as some have said, that a lot of people see Elijah as attractive in any sense of the word). The first kind of writer isn't going to care how "manly" someone is or isn't. The second kind of discussion has been going on based on the book for years, and I don't see the movies adding to that--except that they've added a lot of new fans, so there are simply more people talking about it.

first things first: Happy Birthday, Lutheia!

I am afraid to say anything about slash, cause the little I read I found very disturbing. Chacun a son gout, as they say, but I don't need the details... I've read more fanfic, with more pleasure, especially well-written and generous-spirited fanfic, whether angsty or no.

And Elenya:

"What I don’t ask him to do is to live his life to my image of him."

Beautifully said! High five for a fellow BNL fan!

Maeg: I began to hypeventilate when I saw the Frodo in Orc Armor...but a visit to the Harem assured me that that was the appropriate response. :p Can't begin to speculate about the implications for CU.

And in the vacuum of news about EJW or LOTR, I went and saw X2 last night. I think a visit to the Hugh Jackman drooling room may be in order.... :D

Not in line with current discussion, but a bit of AD angst to let ainon know her package got here safely (yes--all of it: :eek: --as in happily shocked surprise -- :k ). So here are some pics from the OT VCD, where the Dodger's having to tell Fagin--in such a way as to avoid a beating--that Oliver got arrested while under his care. I included the first one because of the costuming--AD's clothes are always (in every incarnation of him I've seen or read) the image of things that were once "classy" fished out of the trash, and IMO the frock coat with the big tear in the back is perfect for him. Good makeup, too, with the dark around his eyes--almost a Froshadowing of the way he looks in some of the Osgiliath shots:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/cap6854.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/cap6856.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/cap6857.jpg

Not much time to work with the material yet--and will be at my mom's this weekend--but, never fear, it'll be put to good use :) :) ! (So when... cough... other... cough... screencaps... start showing up, no one has to ask where they came from ;) !)

Originally posted by ainon
I don't check out LOTR fics at all, but I doubt Frodo/Sam could be the most popular slash couple from the LOTR movies; going from my time in other fandoms, I'd guess the more 'macho' heroes like Legolas/Aragorn would be more appealing.

Hmm...you're right, there is a lot of Aragorn/Legolas fanfic out there. I'm not sure if they're more "popular" than Frodo and Sam, but of course, being a hobbit fancier, I've run across more Frodo/Sam stuff than anyone else. (Not having read any of it, I have no idea how seriously the authors take the A/L relationship, or if it's more "for the fun of it.") I think the fandom is pretty sectioned off in terms of what race people fancy or identify with. Look at us here - of course there are people who post in both the Legolas thread and the Sam thread, or the Faramir thread and the Harem, but a lot of us are pretty definitely "hobbitcentric" or "Man-centric" or whatever. The same thing happens in fanfic, I think...there are authors who only write about hobbits, or only Frodo and Sam, and authors who only write about Elves. Then there are cross-species slash pairings, like Legolas with Aragorn or Gimli - but there are plenty of hobbit-centrics who are never going to write that stuff, hence plenty of hobbit stories, slash and otherwise. (Of course I'm far from an expert on any of this...:o )

I'm also not sure whether or not slash is a minority. It's certainly possible to find plenty of good (and...err...not so good:p ) non-slash LOTR fanfiction out there. But it's also pretty much impossible, in my experience, to go looking for good Frodo and Sam angst without running across slash on the way.

Maeglian, I totally agree with you on RPS (real person slash) - the idea of it freaks me out to no end, and I just really really hope that the actors never, ever find it.:mad:

Ainon, you get me started on Wolverine and I'll never stop...:o

Happy Birthday, Luthiea!!!

http://www.imagecake.com/images/send/birthdays-main-dog.jpg

Okay, so it's not a cake, but he was too cute to pass up.:p Have a great day!:k

Hello, Faculty!

I've been following your discussions for quite some time, and finally feel brave enough to stick my toe in the water and join in. I'm a writer and lover of the Tolkien books and Elijah Wood's acting, and this thread is the best discussion of that that I've found on the net. Thank you!

Regarding slash: Ages ago, when I first heard about Kirk/Spock slash (I never did read any), I remember someone complaining about it -- not because a same-sex relationship was inherently distasteful, but because it seemed to take the relationship from a "higher level" (what this thread has been calling agape) to a "lower level" (eros). The feeling was that the eros love is a backpedalling in a way. You can find that kind of "love" in any bar. True selfless love and friendship is quite rare, and that is what the writer felt should be celebrated.

For myself, when I read the books (even today), I never see the Frodo/Sam relationship as anything but pure, deep, selfless friendship. I suppose in our enlightened society people want to add that element of sex for "reality." (And also because I agree with Meryl Marie and Pearl, that Elijah Wood's attractiveness brought the character of Frodo into a sexual space that was not present for me in the books.) I think that a lot of the character changes that PJ has made in the movies for "reality" have also taken a beating in the purist fandom -- the need to show Faramir and Aragorn both as more weak than Tolkien wrote them, so that they can have a "character arc" -- you know, that thing that all screenwriters learn in Screenwriting 101, along with Acts I, II, and III. So Faramir is tempted by the Ring and wants to take it to please Daddy, and Aragorn is reluctant to be king, instead of training assiduously for it all his life. I think Frodo's character changes have been dealt with extensively in this thread (THANK YOU Faculty!).

In both movies, there's a moving away from Tolkien's higher, noble purposes (right for right's sake) and into more common purposes that I assume Jackson feels will be more understood by a larger movie audience -- Ring addiction vs. selfless dedication, pleasing others vs. adhering to unshakable internal principles, etc. And how can I argue that that wasn't a successful move, from a business standpoint? The second movie did even better than the first. Someone is really liking these changes. I lament the changes to the characters, but I have to say I love EW's portrayal of the character, given what he had to work with. I'd dearly love to see him do more Fiesty!Fro, but I think I've reconciled myself to believing that we'll only get a glimpse of it in ROTK before the addiction theme takes over.

Returning to the slash idea, I think that is also a way of making the material more comfortable for the writers and readers of it. I think these guys are cute, I would like to ... well, you know, and so it ends up in a story. I don't think people necessarily mean any disrespect to Tolkien's work when they do that, although I do agree with you folks who say that such fanworks are simply not enjoyable when they stray too far from the characters as Tolkien wrote them. (For myself, I love well-written gap fillers, where someone explores scenes that Tolkien chose not to include and all the characters are in character. Rare, but extremely enjoyable when found.)

To me, slash is of a piece with the Frodo hurt/comfort genre. I must say, this subset of fandom bewildered me when I first ran across it. Why on Earth would you want to hurt Frodo any more? I think it's again people projecting their wishes into the Middle Earth universe -- I want to nurture Frodo, so by golly I'm going to do so! It's harmless, and some of the medieval medical practices are really quite interesting. It only becomes jarring when the story or characters are distorted out of line with Tolkien's work (which is the thing we all keep coming back to).

As for RPS, I consider that libelous. Yes, I know those sites put up disclaimers saying "this never happened." I'm not up on the latest legalities, but take common trademarks: Coke, Kleenex, Xerox. The legal precedent is that the holder of the trademark must show effort to preserve the trademark. If they don't, they lose the right to own that word. Coca-cola company and Kleenex have the resources to do that. An actor..?

Libel is subtle. To make it stick, the complainant must demonstrate that harm (typically financial) has been caused. This is terribly difficult to prove. Will EW get fewer roles because so many sites depict him in same-sex situations, or is this "publicity" so that he will get more roles? Very difficult to prove in a court of law. Not to mention the sheer number of sites that have to be considered (is it really thousands, Ariel? Yeep!). What actor has the resources to go after a problem of this extent? Yet that puts them in a vulnerable position in court, if they "let" the problem be without pursuing it. It can be construed as implied consent.

The only instance I personally know about a fanfic site being shut down was when Fox went after the main MASH fan website and have them remove all of their speculative fiction. This was the American site. The main British site remained unaffected (difficulty in enforcing overseas compliance, no doubt). Fox could go after this site because it was such a well-publicized and centrally referenced site. Obviously they felt that the fan's fictional portrayals of their characters were damaging to Fox's property. EW and the other actors in the movies would have a great deal of difficulty trying to accomplish the same thing, if they felt the fictional portrayals of themselves were damaging (ditto the Tolkien estate for their characters). So yes, Maeglian, I personally feel that RPS should not be legal. However, I don't know what to do about it other than to share my views and to not read it myself.

SORRY for the long-winded response! You all will kick me back into lurk mode -- well, only serves me right.

Thank you again for your intriguing discussions.
Mariole

Hi, Mariole, and welcome! I saw you delurking over in the Harem and rather hoped you'd start posting here too. And wow! What a post! :cool: Plus, thanks for your kind words about the thread. :)


A lot of things to respond to, I don't have very much time so I think I'll have to come back to some, but here goes:

Concerning RPS, it's not the slash element per se that I so very strongly object to, it's the general invasion of privacy, and speculation and innuendo about something that is nobody's business but the actor's himself. I wouldn't be more happy if the current trend shifted so that people started posting RPH (?) fiction and other kinds of fantasies instead. Either way it's completely deplorable. The only good I have to say about it, is that it's made me hyper-sensitive to what I myself post about EJW (this being the first fan experience of my life!). I try to keep well away from *any* private life stuff whatsoever, to err on the side of caution, and to focus only on his films, roles, Frodo and on TV/magazine interviews. I even felt slightly guilty some time back making a joke about the infamous Crappy Tan Jacket, but I figure all Elijah's friends and family *have* to tease him about that one, so he must be used to it. And on that note, if he really wears the CTJ again to that TV show he is going to attend, (Glick?) I hope someone will tell us? :D

Even so, we foreigners get the impression everyone will sue anyone for anything in the US (too many TV shows, I suppose :o ) and despite your info on this, Mariole, it remains a mystery to me that the actors and their management seemingly have no legal way of having those websites removed.


Tg, I'm intriegued as to what was in the package you received! And thank you for that clarifying summary and distinction between the serious and the just-for-the-fun-of-it fanfic. :)


Mariole, I hope we'll see feisty Fro in Shelob's lair. I rather think we may, to contrast what follows in the rest of the film. Like Peaceweaver, I was practically hyperventilating over that Frodo in orc armour action figure, because I think the costume looks so cool, and because it gives wonderful grounds for speculation about how Frodo can appear according to book canon in CU and yet leave there with his shirt and vest. I have some angsty thoughts on that by now!
But mainly, the action figure looks so tough and macho, while I can pretty well imagine how the real thing will look, and macho will fortunately *not* be the word that comes to mind. It will be heartwrenching and sad..... the costume looks to weigh a great deal, and Frodo's so weighed down already, so very tired, soul-weary and in pain. Getting any angst vibes, here, ainon? :) I hope we get the forced orc march, but I bet that gets cut out and will only appear in the ROTK EE DVD; if at all.


:eek: I have to leave - now! Bye! (Hope there aren't too many spelling errors and stuff here!) More later, I hope. :)


(Edited upon return to remove a possible and completely unintended slight to the endearing group of Frodolls I met at the London hoot!! :) )

Hmmm - I find the term "asexual" hideously clinical.

Rather than say that Tolkien made any of his characters asexual, I think I would rather say that he did not need to write about their sexuality. Even Luthien's dance before Morgoth is strikingly ungraphic (as far as I remember ;)) - so I don't think his declining to talk about a person's sexuality means that he or she has none. Neither am I opining that it is of paramount importance. However, much is left unsaid by Tolkien. Sexual matters are far from foremost amongst the great "mysteries". ;)

I also think it's somewhat arbitrary to assume we know what Tolkien "meant". We can only say what we think he meant. Fair enough, he may make certain assertions in his Letters, but he was the first to admit the complexity of the germ of any story. Also, there is a certain amount of contradiction in his views of his own work and characters. He disliked and eschewed allegory. (Hmmm - "Leaf by Niggle", anyone?) In fact, he once wrote that "Smith of Wooton Major" was an allegory of the Anglican church (work that one out if you can). I find it quite evident that he liked Shakespeare a great deal more than he admitted. Plus his own views of his work changed over time - as does ours (or mine does, at least). His words were often tongue in cheek.

Do I think that Sam and Frodo are gay? No. But do I recoil in disgust from the notion of them having a sexual relationship? Absolutely not. Would I even see it as a lessening of the purity of their bond? Nope. I see the supreme physical communication between two people - the brave, generous and utterly vulnerable act of sex (which at its best it is - anything, of course, can be used or abused) - as an extremely moving, soul-baring act - the crowning glory of love, not its tawdrification. I'll take Omar Khayam over Margery of Kempe any day, thank you very much.

It's interesting how Elijah Wood (a man of his times, as Tolkien was of his) has expressed the idea of a sexual relationship between Frodo and Sam - that the text "neither confirms nor denies it". Everyone is so PC these days that of course he is being very careful not to express anything that might be construed as homophobia, but nonetheless I think he is closer to the point than one might think. Mark Renton's words spring to mind: "I think we're heterosexual by default, not by decision; it's just a question of who you fancy."

Of course Frodo and Sam are a reflection of the officer and batman relationship from the First World War. As such they are also representative of a love which can transcend class, (but this is nothing new or isolated - just look beneath the surface of P G Wodehouse and there is genuine devotion between Jeeves and his often ridiculous master), and this kind of love is almost peerlessly - if sparingly - expressed in poems such as "The Wanderer". Twelfth Night's Antonio's love for the young Sebastian, whom he wishes to serve, is also very moving. It may or may not be homosexual, but does it honestly matter if it is? I don't think so.

Adversity can create uncommonly strong bonds between people, of course, and can demand physical closeness for survival and comfort (e.g. Frodo and Sam in Mordor/men and officers in the trenches). Of course, there is usually neither time nor appropriate circumstances for sexual matters in either case. But love-bonds have been formed under such circumstances, and sex has not always been excluded from this. Doesn't the word "lesbian" come from the fact that mutual comfort was taken by women on a Greek island during the absence of men? I do not know how prolonged that absence was, but for such a thing to have happened is both biologically and psychologically plausible.

Some people (and I do NOT say this condescendingly) will always see Book Frodo and Sam as gay icons. I don't myself, but it does not bother me that anyone might privately take this view. I watched a programme on lesbianism in which homosexual women spoke of their own icons, and Jodie Foster was one of them (the icons, I mean, not one of the speakers). One woman wished to take the scene in "The Accused" where Kelly McGillis squeezes Foster's hand after the trial as a kind of hint at a possible connection of that kind between the two characters, although she knew it may not have been meant as such. This quite startled me, as I had never thought of such a thing, and still don't, but people will to a degree take what they wish from Art - and I do not blame them for it.

As for Frodo and Sam - I am far more phased by the films' diminishing of Frodo's will, courage, stamina and inner maturity than I would have been, I think, had PJ mildly hinted at a love-connection of that kind.

(((((Elenya))))) - 'twas masterly said. Likewise, Meryl and Maeglian!

Originally posted by mariol3b3
SORRY for the long-winded response! You all will kick me back into lurk mode -- well, only serves me right.
:eek: Mariole, you've been reading this thread, and you think we get upset at long-winded posts :eek: !?! Hardly :p ! Especially such an interesting one :) .

Returning to the slash idea, I think that is also a way of making the material more comfortable for the writers and readers of it. I think these guys are cute, I would like to ... well, you know, and so it ends up in a story.
Oh, I totally agree. And IMHO it's the internet that has changed the scope of this (yes, I know I'm old :rolleyes: ). I'm sure the same kinds of thoughts and stories were around in the "old days" (hey, we had Davy Jones and the "cute" Beatle! :D ), but they were shared with a few friends or written in a diary or, at the most, sent out to a short mailing list. Putting it out there in front of God and everybody (literally) is a whole different thing, IMHO, but the legal side of that is unclear--to put it mildly.

The internet has opened up all kinds of legal questions that no one knows how to answer (yet). Publishing a story on the net is different from the old carbon-papered or mimeographed fan 'zines of 25 years ago. For one thing, it is publishing, meaning that you're making it available to anyone who wants to read it (even if they have to register or pay), which the old 'zines didn't do. That puts it at a higher level of legal responsibility which, IMHO, is where it should be, because it can affect a lot of people.

Edit: After reading the posts I "simul-posted" with, I realized I should probably clarify that in talking about real-person fiction I'm not talking about any specific type--homosexual, heterosexual, drug use, bad driving... as a few people have said, it seems like an invasion no matter what it's about. /Edit

The legal issues against real-person fiction are probably difficult if it's openly labeled as fiction. Slander and libel have different meanings--which I used to know :o --and the bar is raised if a person is widely known, because the law considers that to be a choice the person's made (that is, I could get away with writing some things about Newt Gingrich that could land me in hot water if I wrote them about my nextdoor neighbor). Some celebrities have had luck suing tabloids for invasion of privacy, if they publish photos that were taken under certain circumstances. But when you've got something that says upfront "this isn't real"--it seems to me that would make a lawsuit much more difficult.

Another angle is that you can't copyright a real person--last I heard :p , the way you can a fictional character. Could Fox have taken fiction off the site if it were about Alan Alda rather than Hawkeye? (And I don't have an answer to that, just the question.) The Tolkien Estate and/or NewLine would have legal grounds to forbid Frodo fanfics (they've obviously decided not to), but not Elijah Wood fanfics (unless, I suppose, the misuse was so widespread that it kept people away from the books/movies).

So it's kind of a strange mix of real and unreal that would seem to favor the people publishing the fiction.

Elijah would probably have to be able to show that the fiction was causing him a financial loss, or that it was done maliciously (one road that the law keeps open even for people in the public view). Whether there would be any grounds for that :confused: kind of goes back to what I was wondering earlier: does this affect the public at large (even the general movie-going public) to any noticeable degree? Those of us in any way connected with Tolkien and/or EJW fandom are--gasp :eek: --a minority to begin with. Does fanfic really have enough influence to affect what happens in the "real world"? (And that's also a question I don't have an answer to.)

From Niph--late addition :)
Rather than say that Tolkien made any of his characters asexual, I think I would rather say that he did not need to write about their sexuality.
Yes, yes, yes... thank you. Although I think I used the word "asexual" as kind of a shortcut, in an earlier post regarding Frodo&Sam's relationship, I wish I would have taken the time to say it differently. I really dislike people saying book-Frodo is asexual as a person, because I think it's just as Niph has said: discussion of sex just doesn't come into the story.

And stepping inside Tolkien's subcreation for a minute, remember that anything he knew from the time period of LotR was written by Bilbo, Frodo, or Sam (with a few additions/corrections by a Gondorian scribe, and some herblore added by the Master of the Hall, IIRC). Can you imagine any one of those three people writing a sex scene? It just wouldn't happen, and if Tolkien had put one into the book, IMHO, it would have thrown me completely out of the secondary creation he's so carefully constructed.

From the portion of the Red Book written by Sam, we know he thought about Rosie, but Sam's enough of a gentleman to not go into any "hot" details. And he passed the book on to his daughter, FES; he's going to be a bit reserved in what he writes about her mother!

And regarding Frodo--and from the part of the Red Book he would have written--just read how he describes his reaction to Goldenberry. When he first sees Arwen, he's in awe, and probably arrives at courtly love. When he first sees Goldenberry, it's something else entirely--and he says so pretty clearly, even contrasting it consciously with his reaction to Arwen. But he also says so in a way befitting a gentleman who's talking about a woman who's already joined to someone else.

And Bilbo? Well, he's a mystery all his own, isn't he :) ?

[And, hey, this isn't really such a long post--when you consider it's two completely separate ones :p .]

originally posted by tgshaw Not trying to mind-read here, but from my own experience as well as the many and diverse things various people have been "outraged" about when it comes to the movies, IMVVHO when someone feels close to character(s) it's possible to be outraged if something is simply very different from the way that person imagines them to be... I have no idea if that was true for you in this instance, but it certainly happens...

Outrage is often directed at something which is outside peoples experience or just plain different (as well as at things which truly require outrage, such as acts of inhumanity but I’m putting that aside here). Hence the archtypal letter writer to The Times from “Outraged, of Tunbridged Wells” who complains about everything and anything.

The reason that I was ‘outraged’ when I was younger was because homosexuality was not talked openly about. It was a giggle giggle shush, subject that also involved humiliation and resignation of a leading politician. So of course I was not happy when I first read speculation about Frodo and Sam’s relationship.

Now I’m a wiley old bird I reserve my outrage for acts of inhumanity and allow for the fact that (as was so aptly said in The Full Monty) there’s nowt so queer as folks. I’ve had gay neighbours, I have plenty of gay clients, and a few gay friends. My understanding has grown, and if I am tolerant of their behaviour why should I feel outrage at the suggestion that Frodo and Sam may have felt a physical attraction for each other. I take the idea out and explore it, it’s fine. I look at the possibility that their relationship had no sexual dimension. I’m fine with that. I actually agree with EW (and I don’t think he was just being PC) the book does not say ‘Yes’ OR ‘No’

I’m not interested in any other character pairing (except occasionally some of the comic/parody ones) because no other characters in the book interact in the way Sam and Frodo do; and I am not interested in fiction which deviates from the characters as we know them. There is plenty of slash fic out there where the characters happen to be called Sam and Frodo but most definitely are not, I do not know the motives for writing these, nor do I care. I simply bin them as uninteresting.

Did the films cause me to rethink my attitude? No! I am very grateful to PJ for having the courage to show Frodo and Sam hugging, and the expression on Sam’s face on Emyn Muil, as he watches Frodo walk away at the end of FotR, is just sublime, but that isn’t what changed my mind. (Especially that Emyn Muil shot. Hey! didn't you know? It's me he's looking at :D ) Did the internet have an affect on me? Yes, indeedy. Once I found friends here were comfortable with the idea I took out my old prejudices (which had survived simply because I had not looked at them for 20 years or more) dusted them off and found they crumbled away to nothing.

Have I written F/S slash fic? Yes I have. Is it any good? Probably not, but I enjoyed writing the 'what if' scenario. My love for these characters just gets deeper and deeper with the passing of the years.

Elenya high fives Peaceweaver and we all know about BNL ;)

Posted by Niphredil
I see the supreme physical communication between two people - the brave, generous and utterly vulnerable act of sex (which at its best it is - anything, of course, can be used or abused) - as an extremely moving, soul-baring act - the crowning glory of love, not its tawdrification.

Regardless of context? Can you imagine anyone addressing a platoon of WWI soldiers with this passage? :D Another meaningful option would be Oedipus talking to Iocasta :D.

On the positive side, if EJW is reading this thread :eek: :D he will memorise this beautiful example of eloquence and use it as a sofisticated pick-up line :p :p.

[delurk]

Hi, people! May I surface for a bit to participate in an off-topic :o discussion? ;)

Niphy, and everyone, I have a question for you as a long-time LOTR fanfic experts. ;) I've been reading with the utmost interest the arguments from both pro- and anti-slash camps, and still cannot get smth. Maybe the "insiders" know better.

I love your argument :By Niphredil
I see the supreme physical communication between two people - the brave, generous and utterly vulnerable act of sex (which at its best it is - anything, of course, can be used or abused) - as an extremely moving, soul-baring act - the crowning glory of love, not its tawdrification. Bravo. Personally, I cannot accept the argument that slash fic is inherently demeaning to the spiritual side of character's bond, simply because of the implications for Harem (and for all my life, for that matter :p). If anyone would say that Harem-fic cheapens our devotion to the character (!!!:mad:!!!) would have to answer to me (and several dosen other feisty hobbit-lasses and one orc)! :D So, we have to be fair to both sides, het or no het.

(Of course, there is a lot of bad slash and het fics*cough*Mary Sue*cough*, written, as TG put it "for the fun of it". I am not talking about those, they only prove that you could be demeaning to characters with or without sex involved. )

What bothers me, are the good slash fics, written by het women and for het women. Seriously, if slash was written by and for gay people, I would totally understand and applaude. What better role models could be for gay men than Sam and Frodo!? But it seems that slash fic has nothing to do with gay community, it is rather the mark of (many different) fandom communities. What I do not understand is why het women think that 1)changing character's sexuality as written in the book is not a big deal, 2)it is actually fun to do?

For 1)I may be mistaken, but I think the majority of gay people would say sexuality is not a choice, rather smth innate. Doesn't the proliferation of slash fic about obviously het characters (Sam and Frodo may be ambigious, but Aragorn is definitely not, he is actually keeping himself for Arven!) actually cheapen the issues gay community has to battle every day?

For 2)... well I think Ariel (sorry if I am misquoting/misinterpreting you) said smth to the effect that some explicit slash may be just another way to write yourself into the story... By god, why not to write a Mary Sue instead? Should be more... ahem...:o realistic reading.

In almost every discussion people say slash is AU, but there are just as many *fill-in-the-blanks-slash-fics*. Must be an oximoron? I tried to read one Cara Loup's fill-in story, everyone says they are good and true to character, but ... I just could not go past even the first little implied slash content. Little things... the emotional state of the characters is different, and it hits you right on the head. Obviously, her stories are not written for the sake of explicit details, and she does get the characters right, and puts a lot of soul into her writings, etc. It almost seems that if you took the slash implications out, the story would not lose much. If so, why even put it in? Why so many authors choose to put it in? Not to say people should or should not... I just want understand more about motivation. Maybe you people who actually wrote F/S fic could weight in?

Sorry, the question got rather long...;)

[submerging]


edit: Brunhild, pick-up line! LOL!

... whilst that may be somewhat overstating the case (I'm referring to the Chaucer quotation above) - I am very grateful to tg for drawing attention to the courtly aspects of Frodo. They are to me so - well, obviously there ;), that "asexual" is just wrong (and I realise it was just a short-cut term - I often do that in posts). :)

To me, it is so obvious that Frodo IS capable of such feelings, that I find it an utter tragedy that he is left alone at the end; in effect robbed of a relationship of this intimacy, when he deserves comfort and consolation more than any literary character I can think of. OK - one can argue that this is part of Tolkien's art - to make us feel the full poignancy of his fate, and that sacrifices are necessary for the greater good - but, good heavens!

So - any fanfic that provides a little relief for the near-intolerable - is - to me - well - therapy, if you take my meaning. ;)

(I'm not the only one who feels like this! ;)) And therefore I find it completely understandable that people would wish to write fanfics that would give them a little relief from this sadness which Tolkien left us with (it's all HIS fault, you see! ;))

(Elenya is, incidentally, one of the most wonderful and creative providers of the aforementioned "therapy").

===========================

Edit:-

Erm - why exactly would one wish to address the entire platoon, Brunhild?

As for chat-up lines, I think John Donne's would be far shrewder. :D

Elda imagines that it would be great fun to participate in the fanfic/slashfic analysis if it were moved to the Fanfic thread....

By the time this post sees air time, this subject will either have been killed as being off topic for the Faculty or discussed to death, but please bear with a poor old working girl who can't get online from the middle of the woods.

First off, to keep this OnTopic for the thread, I also could not care less what EW's sexual preferences are. They don't affect me or his acting, and other than sincerely hoping he will one day find a nice girl and settle down happily and make lots of beautiful blue eyed kids ;), I don't have any interest in the matter at all. However, since he has made his preference for women publically known, I feel obligued to take him at his word. Any other belief or stance would seem disrespectful.

As I stated earlier, I do think it is the ambiguity of the LOTR is part of what makes it a successful work. A story or piece of art must on some level engage its audience in order to be moving and relevant to them. The more a piece can conform to that reader's (or viewer's) personal slant, the better that reader is going to like it. It's as if the writer were writing the story 'for you' so to speak. Despite having written such a long, detailed tale, Tolkien seems to have been able to do this exceedingly well for an incredible number of people.

On the subject of Frodo, I think Tolkien also succeeded in making the character as beloved as he is for the same kind of reason. Frodo is ultimately an 'unsatisfied' character. His fate is achingly ambigous. His story stays with you, I think, because on some level the reader wants to give his tale a happy ending (or some ending) somehow. Many have done this in fanfic.

I do read (and write) fanfic. I have done so for nearly 20 years. I have found some lovely stories that I was very glad I read, and, of course, some duds, and a few things that I regretted reading at all! :eek: I can say the same about original fiction. I think the drive to write about Tolkien's work, especially about Frodo's character, may derive from a desire of the writers of fanfic to somehow provide him with some of the 'satisfaction' that he is not given in the story. I know that is why I initially wrote it. I loved Tolkien's ending - don't get me wrong - and think neither Frodo's death at the CoD nor his living happily ever after in the Shire would have would have been as moving or heartbreaking as what we actually got, but there was still a desire in me to give the poor boy some family, some happiness... Even if no one in the world ever read what I wrote. (of course, I had the story plotted in my head and never would have bothered to write it if I had never met others in fandom... The res, as they say, is history!) It was a very compelling desire, and I think one that a lot of people who write fanfic share.

That claim may be completely out to lunch, and I have no data to back it up (bad faculty member! :o) but I do feel that this desire to 'satisfy' Frodo's unsatisfied nature is behind a lot of the fanfic about him - both slash and non-slash.

For me, imagining a slash relationship as a way to 'satisfy' the character just succeeds in making me feel excluded from him. My personal involvement in him is gone because I no longer can see myself as being needed to PERSONALLY provide him with comfort. If I didn't adore the character as much as I do, this wouldn't bother me in the slightest, but I don't WANT to feel excluded from Frodo. I adore him. I WANT to feel like I 'could' comfort him in my own little mind. It's that little piece of personal involvement in the story that I mentioned earlier - and how it works in my own little twisted brain. (If anyone cares to know that fact, of course).

As I have also stated, I don't get the appeal of slash in general and so this may be only part of the reason for it's proliferation, but it is also my reason that I dislike F/S (any other 'pairing' doesn't bother me, but neither does it interest me. I guess I don't have the right 'buttons' or whatever it is that makes the genre appealing to others.). I am perfectly tolerant of others' interest in the genre and have no objection to people writing and reading what they want, but I do find it a bit disturbing when people who do like slash, in particular F/S, make the assumption that those who dislike it must either be prudish, straightlaced or homophobic (which a lot of them do - perhaps not on this board, but it is a very common reaction). I am none of these. It is an oversimplification and insult to assume that I, or those like me, are. The reason for a person's likes and dislikes in this area are probably a lot more complex and well thought out than most of those who vehemently defend (or blindly attack) slash would like to understand. I suppose it is just easier to assume that those who have a different opinion must be bad people, but it is doing them quite a disservice.

I do wish both 'sides' in this arguement would come to the understanding that it is simply a preference. Because it is, for me, a strong preference, I tend to gravitate to places where there are others who share it. While I don't mind knowing that slash exists, having slash references constantly needled at me does tend to disturb my privately held image that the character is one that I can help satisfy. It bothers me because I really LOVE that feeling of being involved in the story. Tolkien gave me that gift in his writing and I cherish it and so, when someone seems bound and determined to beat the message into my head that 'slash is really sexy' or 'it's inherent in Tolkien's writing' I react.

Edit: Tata - just read your post and agree 100%!
Niph - I wrote that in the woods before I had read any of the thread - and few people on this board are militant about it. Some people are, however, and they are a bad example for those of you who do like slash.

Edit 2: If the mods want to move this discussion to the other thread - I am happy to do that (though I doubt we will have the input of some of the faculty members there). (((((Elenya))))) -never thought you did mean anything by it but then, I have discussed this issue with you before and knew that you were aware of my reasons and that I respected your position too. ;)

Ariel

[off-topic apologies] I wasn't trying to hammer either view, Ariel - just defending my own position, that's all. Explaining why I think it exists (which I think we agree on :)) and that I don't think it's shameful - either to like it or not to like it. I just felt that the alternative viewpoint needed airing. [/off-topic apologies]

Ariel wroteThe reason for a person's likes and dislikes in this area are probably a lot more complex and well thought out than most of those who vehemently defend slash would like to understand. I suppose it is just easier to assume that those who have a different opinion must be bad people, but it is doing them quite a disservice.

(((((Ariel)))))) :k I hope you don't consider that I am saying that. The discussion was whether EW's portrayal of Frodo lead to the proliferation of slash fic (and therefore I hope this discussion is indeed still on topic). I was trying to explain what lead me there. I had, and have, no intention of implying they should lead anyone else there. I am happy for people to hold either view, for what ever reason. I accept your reasons for not liking it are perfectly valid too.

I was expecting to get leapt on from a great height when I posted here yesterday, Instead it's been a thought provoking discussion. Thank you, Faculty :)

If EW's portrayal lead me anywhere it was to the Harem :) where Frodo is most definitely heterosexual. And interestingly the Frodo of my slash fic is not Frolijah but my Frodo who looked like Marty McFly years before Marty McFly appeared (possibly before Michael Fox was born!) and does not have blue eyes.

Tata wroteIt almost seems that if you took the slash implications out, the story would not lose much. If so, why even put it in? Why so many authors choose to put it in? Not to say people should or should not... I just want understand more about motivation. Maybe you people who actually wrote F/S fic could weight in?

I think I answered your question earlier. I've no idea whether my reasons are valid for others, but I simply wish to take the idea and explore it. I've worked through several different genres of story with varying success, it's interesting to see if I can write angst, porn, slash as well as sweet!cute!

Oh, dear god, I'm actually gonna jump in here. Don't die from the shock...

I'm coming in here not from a position of "defending slash". Really just trying somehow to "explain" it... I agree with Ariel that it's a *preference*, not everyone prefers the same thing, be it white wine vs. red, rare steak vs. well done, etc, etc. But here's my position. I came into LOTR fandom relatively recently. I'm a "newbie" who first saw FOTR, then read the books, then, in April and May of 2002, started looking around the Internet for more on this, and others with similar interests. And at that time, I read a few letters on Ian McKellan's site insisting that Sam and Frodo were gay, and asking Ian to confirm that (which he would not do). At the time, I was outraged. Why did people feel the need to do that to Frodo and Sam? Theirs' was a friendship that transcended all that. If I had known at that point that slash fanfic existed, I'd have probably been outraged by that, too.

But, somehow, the more I got to "know" the characters, and think about and discuss their relationships, the less important that became. I started reading fanfic :eek: , and found I read it voraciously, as it got me to look at and start thinking about aspects of the stories and characters that hadn't occurred to me yet. My gosh, I never really thought about what a trauma the death of Frodo's parents might have been to him! Or the implications of Frodo's having raided Farmer Maggot's farm. Or the horror of the re-occurences of his "illness" over and over... JRRT mentions some parts of it almost in passing, and it wasn't until I read some very intriguing fanfic on those topics that I started to pull apart the story and look at things like that differently.

And somewhere along the line, I started reading slash fanfic. F/S slash to be precise (I have no interest in any other pairing, really. I'll accept a well-written M/P included in a F/S story, but I won't read just M/P). I must tell you, in a lot of ways I have *NO IDEA* why I like F/S slash. Logically, intellectually, I should dislike it as much as the next person. But the fact of the matter is, I like it. Of course that goes with the caveate that is true for *any* fanfic, in that I like *good* F/S. There's a lot of mind-bogglingly bad slash fic out there, but there's a lot of mind-bogglingly bad general fic out there, too.

Tata asked why write slash? If you really want to insert yourself into the story, why not write a Mary Sue? But the fact of the matter is, it's a very different thing. Sam and Frodo's relationship is *very* different. The following is very much my personal opinion... Personally, I find most pre-Quest slash silly. Because my belief is, if there *was* a sexual relationship between Frodo and Sam, it would have been the Quest that would have made it so. In the midst of this horrific journey, Frodo and Sam reached out to each other for comfort (even the agape type) in a way that they never would have in the Shire. Sleeping curled around each other for comfort and warmth, Frodo sleeping with his head in Sam's lap, with Sam's hand on his forehead and breast; this *never* would have happened if they hadn't gone on the quest. But what of when they returned? That closeness is no longer needed or appropriate in their no-longer-desparate situation. Unless, perhaps, they were lovers.... If they felt some need or desire to continue that closeness, or make it closer in the only way that made "sense" after they returned home. This is all speculation, and most of it only occurred to me after reading a wondrous fic I've been reading recently.

But to get back to my point.... IMHO Sam and Frodo are really the only characters in LOTR that are "worthy" of each other. Most Mary Sues are not worthy. IMHO, very few OC's are. If you want to write a fic where you can insert yourself into a relationship with Frodo or with Sam, then you need to insert yourself as *either* Frodo or Sam. That seems to me to be the appeal. To somehow be a "part" of such an amazing, ideal relationship, based on mutual love and respect between two soulmates. Personally, I don't see them as "gay". I see them as two hobbits expressing a love and admiration and closeness for each other in a physical manner. I don't think Sam might have ended up with Jolly Cotton if he'd never gone on the quest. I think because of the circumstances, they ended up *that* close to each other, and expressing it as a sexual relationship is just one "option".

Oi, long and rambling.... As I said. I don't know why I like slash. I've *no idea* why the concept is acceptable to me. I think a lot of people who like slash get adamant about "defending" it just for that reason... because they don't 100 % understand it... But resent the implication that it somehow makes them "sick" or "perverted" if they do.... Or that they are demeaning Frodo and Sam... Because I sure as heck don't feel that way....

Hewene

((((Ariel)))) I hope you don't consider me saying that either.... :k
I was trying to say that either view can be defended and written, not that one is right, or wrong.

Brunhild- LOL! And may I second Niphy's question about; why the whole platoon? (Do I really want to know?)


Niphredil and Elenya - wonderful thoughtful beautiful posts! :notworthy:

And tg; thank you for the discussion concerning the lagality of real person fics (of any kind). It's quite a conondrum that in trying to fight such things legally, any actor would probably mainly manage to draw attention to it, and to have it covered in the news, referred to at fan sites and in magazines etc.... generally making it even more well known, creating curiosity in the general public, and thus contributing to the further proliferation of such stories. Unless he was of the opinion that all PR is good PR (I'm sure some actors would use that opportunity to get publicity!) it really seems to be a lose/lose situation.


I actually agree with Elda; - this discussion on fanfic will be interesting for all of the Community Cafe. Much as I LOVE to keep it going in the Faculty (which doesn't move quite as rapidly as the harem most days), and much as I love to see Elenya, Niphredil, Tata, Ariel, Hewene and others post here, I will pick up some of the matters under discussion, and move over to the fanfic thread to comment a little. I hope others will follow. (((((Elda)))))) It's not easy to voice strong opinions on this, in a way, for someone who's never written any fic nor even read any until relatively recently (say a year ago....), compared to most of you who write such wonderful well-thought out fics.

OK, off I go........

Mariol! Welcome to the Faculty, and it's an immense pleasure to see you delurked! So no, no, never go back to those dark lurky corners again! :)


tg - Yay! And great caps! :k


I'm rushing, but I wanted to say thank you very much to all who've been discussing the fanfic/slashfic etc. issue here. I enjoyed the discussions very much, and I'm mischievously glad ;) (*hugs* Ele) that the discussion was able to carry on as long as it did, for I do not go to the fanfic thread at all. So thanks again, all of you. It was a great discussion.


And now, the reason I'm here at all on a very busy Saturday morning, with the boss just waiting in the next room ... and I hope you all will bear with me -- this IS making me hyperventilate. :eek:




pic below. *SPOILER WARNING* I'm posting it in the body of the message because we haven't seen Elijah as Frodo in a long time, have we? :)



*Please be aware, all those who're avoiding all spoilers.*



SPOILER PIC FROM ROTK

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http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/6543.jpg




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spoiler space ends here.

Happy Birthday, Luthiea!

You behave yourself and come home safe tonight, y'hear? :D

Welcome to mariol3b3, and "Hi!" to all the lurkers who've popped up for the fanfic discussion. The Faculty discussing fanfiction, and slash at that - who'd'a thunk it? :D

originally posted by tgshaw
Slander and libel have different meanings--which I used to know

One is written and the other spoken - slander's spoken and libel is print, I think. I'm trying to get this out before hubby gets back or I'd check. :p

I find RPF intrusive, whatever the subject, *except* I have read a couple of "Visit to a Strange Planet" type stories that I confess worked for me. "Visit to a Strange Planet" was a Star Trek story published many moons ago, where the actors and the characters are somehow switched, and the story follows the actors as they try to function as the characters they've played. I have only read a couple of them, but the stories dealt only and entirely in the actor's "public personas," and they didn't disturb me at all. An example some people here may have read is CNell's Fanfic Lounge Fellowship story, which "guest stars" Orlando Bloom and Elijah Wood. She researched the actor's public persona just as she did the LOTR characters she was using, and the characters "reveal" nothing that the actors wouldn't in an interview.

CNell does, of course, treat the actors with the same lightness she does the characters, because it's kind of a parody, but it's very gentle humor and they're basically portrayed as decent sorts and somewhat heroic. To be honest, when I first heard of RPF I was horrified - but I never for a moment connected it to "Visit to a Strange Planet" (which I had read at that point). Actually, the one I read was "Visit to a Strange Planet, Revisited", IIRC. "Visit to a Strange Planet" was the characters trying to survive as the actors, but all stories that have that plot are called "Strange Planet" stories whichever side of the story they follow (many of them follow both in one).

My two-year-old is helping me type, here, I'm real curious to see what shows up...

If I get ambitious I'll follow Elda's lead and go tackle Tata's slash questions on the fanfic thread. I figure the RPF discussion fits here alright, though, at least as it applies to EW. Although tg seems to have covered the legalities pretty well! I have heard something about real people being "copyrighted" somehow - their public persona - but I don't think it was an actor, I think it was someone more like Steve Irwin, someone whose fame was as a "personality." But it was done, so I understand it, in part so they could fight fanfic. At this point I can't remember if the rumor was ever verified.

Hubby just walked in with dinner, guess I'll break down and join the family to eat. :p

Sheryl

Edit:

tgshaw asked about whether LOTR fanfic is predominantly slash. I would say "not," but I think it's like many fandoms where most of the more exclusive sites that actually demand well written stuff are dominated by slash. To some extent slash in fandom was an "insider" thing - when fanfic was in zines, you had to know someone to get slash, or get to a convention or otherwise have contacts in that particular aspect of the fannish world. Now of course all you need is a computer and a search engine, but there's still this idea that slash is written by the better writers. For a long time slash was written by the older fans while Mary Sues were written by the teenagers or those who refused to be socialized within fandom - you simply could not be taken seriously if you wrote Mary Sues. I think part of the huge success of the TV show "Beauty and the Beast" within fandom was the fact that all these fans who'd longed to write Mary Sues but couldn't finally had a character they could make use of. :D

A lot of the slash zine writers would go off on this "sex in slash is a metaphor for yadda yadda yadda" thing at the drop of a hat, where they were arguing that slash was a coded way of dealing with whatever, and symbolic, and meaningful, and all that there, but I confess I was always skeptical (especially since my slash friends pooh poohed the whole idea and freely admitted, "I read it for the sex" ;) ). But slash definitely had this image in zine fandom of being better written and more meaningful and "more grown up" than het. Which, when I compare the slash I've stumbled across on the Internet to some of the good non-slash I've read over the years, just makes me shake my head in bewilderment. But of course a lot of the "really good" slash writers wouldn't be caught dead in print on the Internet, so I dunno...

I was never rich enough to seriously indulge in zines anyhow, although fortunately I had friends with huge stashes, and while the overall quality of fanfic in the Internet is certainly lower, it's nice to be able to find lots and lots of good stuff without kicking out the cash. And I confess I *love* to read MSTed stories and the like, none of which existed in zine fandom. My absolute favorite is a Wicked X Witches MST of a story where Scully and Mulder get married - the reviewer tallies up the cost of the wedding. Hard to explain, but it had me rolling on the floor...

Elijah Wood? Hmm, yeah, I've heard of him - wasn't he that cute kid who did such an excellent job in Huck Finn? :D

Sheryl

Originally posted by Maeglian

Tg, I'm intriegued as to what was in the package you received!
Well, I can now post things like this:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/vcd6862-85.jpg

and this...

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/vcd6882-85.jpg

and...

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/vcd6908-85.jpg

and...

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/vcd6913-85.jpg

---and if I don't stop now, I won't get any sleep before driving to my mom's tomorrow morning :p .

What my boss would call "international research collaboration" ;) . I'll try to hold up my end of the project :) .

---But probably not for a few days :rolleyes: . I'll be signing off now until some time on Monday. Have a good weekend, all :) .

from tgshaw
and if I don't stop now, I won't get any sleep
tg, I'm very supportive of you getting sleep, but please don't stop posting these screencaps! I owe you a large debt of gratitude. I stumbled across your website not so long ago in pursuit of all things EW/Lord of Rings-ish. When I read the words "microexpressions" and "nostril acting" I knew I'd struck a rich vein! I followed it over to the Faculty, and am very glad that I did. I think ROTK will be a much less traumatic event for me than TTT was, given the intelligent speculation and support of this group. (I suppose I sound like a rabid fan. Well, if the shoe fits...)

Regarding your earlier question about copyright, no, you can't copyright a person, just a character. Specifically, a particular expression of an original character "in a concrete medium of expression." This includes writings, graphic arts, motion pictures (and cartoons and images associated with them), and sound recordings (not only songs, but arrangements).

The idea here is similar to a patent, to allow the producer of an artistic work to reap the financial benefits after investing the time/trouble/finances to create it. A copyright gives the owner the exclusive right to reproduce, distribute, perform, display, or license the work. The owner also receives the exclusive right to produce or license derivatives of his or her work (so anyone who writes fanfic is in violation of this). Limited exceptions to this exclusivity exist for types of "fair use", such as book reviews and parody.

Using shilomm's example of CNell's Fanfic Lounge Fellowship story, CNell is probably in the clear, since it is obvious that the work is a parody. The guest appearances by Orlando Bloom and Elijah Wood are certainly not meant maliciously. Things get a bit more murky for any kind of RPF where the featured character is a "fictional" representation of a person. tg may well be right in that the "fictional" disclaimer might ward off any legal liability on the part of the author, but I still think that inventing words and sticking them in the mouths of living people is crossing a line. Poor Di was reportedly driven to distraction by the hounding of the paparazzi. Did she really sign up to have her whole life considered public property, just because she married a prince? Previous generations did not seem to peer into the private lives of public figures to the extent that we do today. (JFK's indiscretions, anyone? Although anything he did as president was not only fair game, but necessary reporting.)

In any case, I think it's only fair to let poor EW alone regarding any RP works, given his frequently stated objections to invasion of privacy. Thanks to these movies, he's now a "celebrity," but he didn't set out to be famous, he set out to be an actor. Many creative people feel shy or awkward publicly. As compelling as it is to wish to know as much as possible about someone you're intrigued with, it only seems respectful to let the person be if they express that desire. (Yes, I admit that I have looked at candid photos posted of EW. I've also thought to myself that he looked a bit ticked to be photo'd while getting into his own car...)

Elijah Wood, article in Gear magazine:
"We had lunch in Manhattan and it showed up in a magazine the next week. I've never dealt with that before. It's a whole new element in my growing type of thing. It's weird and awkward and funny at the same time. But it is a violation."

*deluby crawls back into the Faculty Lounge*

Next time the internet connection goes out, someone please knock me on the head and put me into a coma and then wake me up when it's working again? Thank you very much.


I missed you all so much! :k


*deluby clicks on Page 108(:eek: http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilies/faint.gif ) and starts reading.*


P.S. Sheryl, I'll PM you back as soon as I sort everything out. :)

Deluby!!!! :) :)
I was really wondering where you were and if you'd given up on us! Good to see you back here! :k


Tg, Ok now I understand about the package. Those pictures vaguely seem to bring to mind a film I saw in the cinema some 3 months ago? :D

This means the possibility of detailed research of such scenes as Frodo's Osgiliath reaction to "let them go"!?! I enjoy that little bit of acting of his *so* much - your avatar yesterday was from that scene and that made me happy!!

But practically all the Frodo scenes in Osgiliath, come to think about it... The whole Osgiliath scene set-up may be controversial and less than canon and with abrupt editing and mysterious motivation for the characters, but WOW!! does it *ever* allow Elijah's acting to shine like the sun! That expressive face, portraying so many and deep emotions, including utter despair, total hate, bottomless grief, resignation, relief, determination......
Looking forward to all and any research here! :)


I really meant to comment on the following, but got sidetracked for a little while :o :From ainon
As I understand it, comparisons are being made between paintings and stills from the movie, but that can't work for the scenes themselves. In-context, the scene is Frodo looking up at the coming Nazgul. So to place any other meaning to a still of Frodo looking skywards means the audience choosing to take things out of context, right? So how does that reflect back on the filmmakers? I don't think it reflects back on the filmmakers at all, - but on the publicity and marketing people. Both Angelic Frodo of the TTT trailer and his "praying/supplication" poses of various promo material and posters turned out to be Frodo looking at and reacting to the Nazgul. But that material was released before the audience even knew of any nazgul in Osgiliath, and it was chosen to be presented out of context for the emotional and visual impact, by people who knows what they're doing. I still believe that they were clearly aiming at the "religious imagery" subconscious of their (mainly) US audience in choosing to present Frodo the way they did in trailer and promtion. Especially the "praying" poses are difficult to explain any other way.

Of course, once the film was released and we have seen the scenes in context (or not.... I'm still peeved that they didn't give me Angelic Fro in the film! :( ) that aspect loses much of its relevance because we know what the scenes are about and that there is no direct religious references on the part of the filmmakers the way the scenes play out.

From Mariole
Thanks to these movies, he's now a "celebrity," but he didn't set out to be famous, he set out to be an actor. That's true, but still; when he accepted the Frodo role he'd been in the industry, and had acted against enough major film stars, to know very well that the lead role in such an immense movie vehicle would also make him a "star" however much he accepted it for the acting possibility. He also knew full well what kind of irritants, pressure and difficulties were likely to follow with that. I say that as a good thing, since I fully credit him with the ability to weigh the pros and cons and to understand what he would be letting himself in for, even at age 17. That doesn't mean he should in any way have to accept paparazzi lurking in the bushes or magazines and fans writing and publishing invented slander stories, of course. But at least he knew this was likely to occur, and so could mentally prepare for it, and decide that the acting (and financial) pros of the role outweighed the cons of the celebrity status. And who's to say he doesn't enjoy the celebrity status quite a bit, too? In interviews he's been very positive about how that status has set him on equal footing with and able to meet the bands and musicians he so enjoys. And there are other perks as well, such as being financially independent. :D
Other more incidental celebrities might not have had that possibility to mentally prepare..... However much celebrity status sometimes seems to be the be all end all goal of modern life....


Sheryl, what is MST? I know it's been explained before, in the Harem I think, but it rings no bell even so. :o


Is LotR fanfic more slash than not? Are there more stories involving the masculine characters (men and elves) than the hobbits? Is most of it Mary Sue's and PWP, or more serious stories also including a sexual element? The only way I can see to answer these questions would be either to answer based on pure speculation and assumptions, or actually immersing myself in LotR fanfic sites and slash sites to find out for sure. :eek: Prone as I am to jump in on Faculty research projects, that last one is *not* an option, and so, as far as I am concerned, those questions will remain without any answers based in facts and research. :D


ainon - Frodo in Shelob's lair............ *thud*! Although he does look somewhat like his own scale double in that picture! :D New Line, please give us some better, clearer pics! We've been so patient! Really! We deserve it! :rolleyes:

tgshaw--Nice screencaps ;). I'm beginning to understand your recent interest in copyright legislation :D.
Posted by Maeglian
And may I second Niphy's question about; why the whole platoon? (Do I really want to know?)
That's how you'd normally give a pep talk to soldiers going into battle ;).

The actual problem is that the proliferation of slash has already made it necessary for EJW to explain things in interviews. IIRC, he stated that no such meaning was intended. A sensitive actor can be seriously hurt by this situation because deep inside he will be asking himself whether he has somehow failed to convey his vision of the character properly. :(

I find it difficult to discuss the literary values of slash seriously. Just imagine JRRT jacking into the net and reading some slash fic. The expression Professor's face would be wonderful to behold.

I imagine it would be, but I for one believe some of the best slash fics out there can be classified as “literature” – or at the very least, skilful and beautiful writing.

Deeply as I admire Tolkien, I can’t look at everything to do with LOTR through his eyes. He probably wouldn’t like a lot of things in the films either. No disrespect is meant to his characters by the best slash writers – quite the opposite. He may not even have liked the het fic in the Harem, or some of the discussions on this board. I love all the posters in the Harem and Faculty regardless of their feelings slashwards – it’s a matter of preference, and I respect their feelings.

F/S shocked me the first time I read it – I’d never read *that* type of erotica before - but IMO, it works for those two characters. As has been said more eloquently by other posters, it's a separate interpretation of the characters’ love, and I like it as long as it seems true to character. I don’t really believe Tolkien implied a sexual relationship in the book, nor PJ in the film. If others see it, that’s fine with me.

A sensitive actor can be seriously hurt by this situation because deep inside he will be asking himself whether he has somehow failed to convey his vision of the character properly.

Considering how many of the LOTR characters have been slashed, surely EW should know he has committed no "fault" – his portrayal of Frodo was wonderful and the Haremites are certainly happy with it! As has also been said before, people wondered about the F/S relationship long before the films came out.
(I sincerely hope EW doesn't know about the existence of RPS, though - that does repel me.)

Very, very nice screencaps, tg. I'm delighted to see them making an early appearance. :cool: (but what? no subtitles? :))

DELUBY!!!!! Argh! To think that you've been deprived of our company again! :p Well, I'm so relieved to see you back. I was starting to worry. :k


Originally posted by Sheryl
... especially since my slash friends pooh poohed the whole idea and freely admitted, "I read it for the sex"

ROTFL. I mean no disrespect to anyone when I say this, and I say it in the most lighthearted way, but yeah, I mean, sure, that's why the best-looking, sensitive, soulful guys are the ones who're featured in slashfics, right? :) And yes, I too noted in other fandoms that slash writers tend to be some of the best writers. Excellent writing would be a necessary skill, I imagine, in order to ensure the slash relationship can believably 'fit' into source canon.

I don't know if there's ever a real explanation for why certain people like one thing, while others like another. Ask me why I'm a sicko who anticipates angst and torture and I have no answers either. :o But it's certainly not because I have any interest in being a Mary Sue, or in writing comfortfic. In fact, when I used to write fic, it always seemed like my ultimate goal was to kill my hero. :rolleyes: :p


Maeg -- MST: "Mystery Science Theatre". Not to be confused with UST: "Unresolved Sexual Tension", although I don't know if that's a term used in LOTRdom.


Originally posted by Brunhild
Just imagine JRRT jacking into the net and reading some slash fic. The expression on Professor's face would be wonderful to behold. :D :) :p

Okay, that's another ROTFL moment there!

A sensitive actor can be seriously hurt by this situation because deep inside he will be asking himself whether he has somehow failed to convey his vision of the character properly.

Yes, you're right. But Peachy's reply covers the bases when it comes to EW, so I'll ditto her. :)

Unfortunately, I think actors are aware somewhat of the Real Person Fic phenomenon, especially if they're Internet-able. :(



Bridget:Ainon, you get me started on Wolverine and I'll never stop...

Your point being? Besides, I don't think peaceweaver will mind. Right, peaceweaver?


Have a Happy Weekend, Faculty!

Originally posted by Brunhild
The actual problem is that the proliferation of slash has already made it necessary for EJW to explain things in interviews. IIRC, he stated that no such meaning was intended. A sensitive actor can be seriously hurt by this situation because deep inside he will be asking himself whether he has somehow failed to convey his vision of the character properly. :(

As has already been said, and as was repeated by Peachy above, the notion of Frodo and Sam having a non-platonic relationship existed long before these movies came out. If Elijah is explaining things in interviews, it's not because of slash, it's because there have always been questions about the nature of Frodo and Sam's relationship...it's an incredibly complex one that is virtually impossible to label...friendship? devotion? duty? desire? love?

Not having read the books, I think that Elijah's vision of the character is very much the vision of PJ and the screenwriters. And I don't think that either Elijah or PJ or the screenwriters have done anything to put forth a "slashy" implication, either on purpose or inadvertently. If anything, PJ has left out things that might have raised some eyebrows...can you imagine if the "Herbs and Stewed Rabbits" scene had played on film the way it did in the book, with Sam gazing upon a sleeping Frodo and thinking, "He's beautiful...and I love him."? Goodness, if there are rumors of people snickering during the hug in the boat at the end of FoTR, what would they have made of THAT??

And Brunhild, while this may be slightly off-topic, I must say that, as a sensitive actor and person, I think Elijah would be less than thrilled by that "Let's loot the bitch" quote in your sig. I know where that comes from, and if Elijah did even say that, he said it after a particularly embarrassing and uncomfortable incident. Seeing it in your sig, out of context, seems to cast this generally courteous and kind young man in an ugly light which he does not deserve. Sorry to say it, but as you do stand up for Elijah as an actor and a person so vehemently, that quote has always struck me as an odd choice for a sig, especially for someone who frequently posts in the Faculty.

Yeah, I know I said I was gone til Monday--but I had to do something while I was drinking my coffee this morning :rolleyes: .

(((deluby))) -- I wondered about you, but figured you were just too busy to drop in... That really... :o well, it's too bad your connection keeps going out!

Originally posted by Brunhild
tgshaw--Nice screencaps. I'm beginning to understand your recent interest in copyright legislation.
It's been interesting the last few years watching NewLine develop its symbiotic relationship with the fan base (notwithstanding the lack of RotK pics :( ). Technically, posting one screencap--even from a movie that's already been officially released on DVD--is copyright infringement. But NewLine seems to realize that the fan interest is the opposite of harmful to their "bottom line" and has let things roll merrily along. Even the "spy photos" that came out before FotR were mostly ignored. There were a few exceptions with things they really didn't want people to see beforehand (I still have a copy of the "banned" SFX-unfinished Nazgul pic on my hard drive :eek: ), but because they'd basically been so fan friendly, fan sites were compliant about dropping those things as soon as they were asked (well, except for Jim Calagon (http://www.jimcalagon.supanet.com), but I'm sure he falls under the parody exception :D ).

But, yeah, I'm leery about posting those screencaps on an open website like I have the FotR ones. Actually, even those were on a password protected part of the site (very easy password for anyone who knew the book and/or movie, but not for anyone else who might just "drop in") until my site construction program became unsupported and I couldn't use password protection anymore. I suppose the best option is to bite the bullet and get the program upgrade--I'm living on borrowed time as it is; if the site were to crash and burn, there'd be no way to get it back (the company that made the program was bought out and the new owner doesn't even acknowledge the existence of the "old" versions like mine). I also had to drop the password-protected part of the site I'd set up for my family to share news, and it would be nice to have that back. Also lost guestbook and feedback capability. [Do you get the idea I'm trying to talk myself into spending the money for the upgrade :rolleyes: ?]

With the FotR caps, at least, my main consideration hasn't been NewLine but Amazon.com, as they frown upon "associates" posting anything that's copyright protected. Although it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world to get booted out of that program, I'd like to stay with it, not only because I've made a wee pittance from it but because I see it as kind of a service to site visitors to have the links so handy. I've very specifically not put any Amazon links on the screencap pages. (Now, if I could get rid of those $%#* drop-down ads...)

[And regarding the website--thanks for your comments, mariol. I know the site's not exactly a "high-traffic" area, but it makes the work feel worthwhile when I "meet" someone who's gotten some good from it--and what could be better than ending up here :p ?]

I find it difficult to discuss the literary values of slash seriously. Just imagine JRRT jacking into the net and reading some slash fic. The expression on Professor's face would be wonderful to behold.
I'm just trying to imagine the Professor "jacking into the net" :eek: -- considering he had a hard time accepting cars. He did have a phone, though, so maybe he'd be more likely to use something that had to do with communication.

My take on fanfic if JRRT were still around and active (he did have his eleventy-first birthday last January, so would be getting on a bit)? There wouldn't be any--openly published on the net, that is--because he'd make sure the copyright restrictions were vigorously enforced.

One thing that endears him to me (when I read his letters) is that he was very protective of his characters. He often talks about them as if they're real people he knows, and he doesn't like to see them misinterpreted--which means anything that doesn't agree with book canon, which, of course, is how it really happened. He was somewhat open to "extra-book" interpretations, but at the slightest deviation from "known history"--nope. I rather think he'd look at character fanfic the way we look at real person fanfic. Yes, he was a bit, um, unusual for an author that way... Thank Eru :) ! I don't think those of us who can drop into Middle-earth suspension of disbelief at the drop of a hat would be able to do so if the author hadn't been a bit that way himself :) .

[He did sell the screen rights to LotR, but if you want to get an idea how different the movies might be if he'd been actively involved, read what he said about one screenplay that was sent to him.]

The actual problem is that the proliferation of slash has already made it necessary for EJW to explain things in interviews. IIRC, he stated that no such meaning was intended. A sensitive actor can be seriously hurt by this situation because deep inside he will be asking himself whether he has somehow failed to convey his vision of the character properly.
Edit: There've been several posts added since I started writing, so just think of this as a "me, too":
If you mean regarding Frodo and Sam, that would have been there no matter what... the movies in no way started that discussion--the book did--and I would think both Elijah and Sean would be aware of that. IMVHO, the movies just added more "discussants" because more people are familiar with the story. If you mean EJW's private life, I agree with what's been said--that it's nobody's business except his (although I do wish he'd stop smoking so the world could have him around longer :( ).

Well, the coffee pot is almost empty, so I suppose... I'd thought about not going to Fort Dodge this weekend (per Iowa trivia, it's pronounced Forddodj' ), since I was there for Easter so recently. But when your 86-year-old mother calls you and asks if you're coming for Mother's Day, it's a little hard to say no. :k

Quite a post for someone who's not here ;) .

Edit: ainon--If I were going to post a whole series of any of those shots, the subtitles would be hard to avoid, but I can pull out single pics without them (I do find myself wondering if they're as funny as the ones that were posted over in the Trilogy forum, though: "Bring your pussy face to my ass!" ROTFLMAO) Regarding above copyright discussion, I'm more concerned with avoiding the English words that keep popping on and off... "For Your Consideration" -- gee, wonder what that means :rolleyes: .

tgshaw--I've also found this thread by way of your cool web-site. So it can actually bring in trouble :p :D :).

I don't really see how an out-of-context quote that makes Elijah Wood sound like a foul-mouthed punk falls into the category of "self"-ridicule, but if it amuses you, then far be it from me to deny you that pleasure. I must say, though, that it does seem somewhat odd to me that you would choose to quote something that he is rumored to have said in his personal time, since you do not discuss him as a person. Perhaps I just find it a bit disturbing to see the words "bitch" and "slit her throat" every time you post something. Ah well. Senses of humor are as varied as fingerprints. Carry on.

the subtitles would be hard to avoid, but I can pull out single pics without them (I do find myself wondering if they're as funny as the ones that were posted over in the Trilogy forum, though: "Bring your pussy face to my ass!" ROTFLMAO)
:eek: :eek: :eek: I have no idea at all what Americans translate that as...but er... FGS don't ever say it in New Zealand in public. *giggle* ...it just seems so unlikely to come from your fingertips tg ;).

Brunhild: sense of humour has nothing to do with an honest reaction. I don't read any sort of fan fiction at all (hence non participation lately though I have read all the ideas with great interest) , enjoy a laugh, but also find your quote very jarring though for quite different reasons.
You are a very decisive person as far as I can tell :cool: . I thus I assume you have a clear reason for using it. So don't interpret this post in any way at all as an indirect request to remove it since that is Absolutely Not my Intention here at all. But us who "flinch" at it are not humourless...we're just...er...flinchers???:p ;)

Besides: I've gotten very good at skipping over it. I guess that makes me a "flinchless skipper" ? :D

from...sigh...Ainon:
In fact, when I used to write fic, it always seemed like my ultimate goal was to kill my hero.


:eek: :eek: :D

Brunhild, I too find that quote *extremely* unnerving, even after learning the background for it. It must certainly be about as non-characteristic an EJW quote as it is at all possible to find. Perhaps that is the point.

From Peachy
I for one believe some of the best slash fics out there can be classified as “literature” – or at the very least, skilful and beautiful writing. I have read 2 novel-length fics (both non-slash, btw, 1 was LotR-based and 1 based on another fandom) that were so complete and IMO had such highly developed literary quality in the vision, writing, theme, and characterisation that I still wonder why the respective authors chose to make them fanfics within another author's universe, thus preventing any proper publishing and recognition of their own writing. I am sure there are slashfics out there with a similar high quality, there's no reason there wouldn't be.

There are persons in LotR fandom and IMO also here at KD whose fanfic writings (incidentally, also non-slash) are beautiful, evokative and accomplished. Although fandom would lose out big time if they quit writing fanfics, I rather hope they *will* move away from that and write stand-alone fiction based on their own ideas, so that they might have a chance of getting the work published and acknowledged.

Does anyone know how common it is that fiction writers start out writing fanfic before finding their own "voice"? Sheryl; - do you have information on that?
(Perhaps this should move over to the fanfic thread too, but that one is still in the middle of the F/S slash discussion, and I don't want to interrupt them. )

From Prim
I guess that makes me a "flinchless skipper" ...Or an artful dodger? :)

from Maeglian
Does anyone know how common it is that fiction writers start out writing fanfic before finding their own "voice"?
Hi, Maeglian! I'm putting my response on the fanfiction thread, as I think I veer OT here. Sorry to all the F/S folks. Thanks!

Well, Maeglian's reaction convinced me that I couldn't really expect anyone to apprehend the EJW quote that used to be in my sig as a plausible comment on my own contributions to this thread :D :p ;).

Prim--You'll have to find another application for your outstanding flinchskipping skills :cool: ;). Perhaps, you should get one of those bootleg DVDs with "Engrish" subtitles :). Some of them rise to almost fanfic heights: 'No I have to do Sam,' says Frodo :cool:. BTW, here (http://home.online.no/~gremmem/engrish_ttt_captions/) is an example of New Line's legal activity.

Eldalieva--Modern attitudes are pretty eclectic :). People thinking that EJW is a worthy (and not at all foul-mouthed :p) guy may have a positive stance on slash fanfic, the contents of which clearly contradicts EJW's public statements on how he played Frodo. People disturbed by the word 'bitch' may seriously argue in favor of freely distributed homoerotic stories about hobbits. :rolleyes: Older people cannot cope anymore without a weird sense of humour ;) :).

During a fallow period for actual news, this is a most thought-provoking and wonderful thread. Bless you, fellow Faculty members new and old and occasional, for keeping me thinking.

Big hugs for Deluby!

tg: did you really mean this?
And regarding Frodo--and from the part of the Red Book he would have written--just read how he describes his reaction to Goldenberry.
Is this our very own Goldenberry? Have you been spending too much time with us? :p

Don't you dare go away, though. Your screencaps are almost as wonderful as your commentary. :k I, too, am looking forward to caps from the Osgiliath sequence.

ainon: Thanks for that picture of Frodo in Shelob's Lair. Gives me goosebumps, it does.

And I've been to the Hugh J drooling room. You find a lot of familar faces over there!

;)

Originally posted by Brunhild
Eldalieva--Modern attitudes are pretty eclectic :). People thinking that EJW is a worthy (and not at all foul-mouthed :p) guy may have a positive stance on slash fanfic, the contents of which clearly contradicts EJW's public statements on how he played Frodo. People disturbed by the word 'bitch' may seriously argue in favor of freely distributed homoerotic stories about hobbits. :rolleyes: Older people cannot cope anymore without a weird sense of humour ;) :).

I think Elijah Wood can be an intensely foul-mouthed guy, as I can be an intensely foul-mouthed girl, but I thought the use of that particular quote in your sig was unsettling in a thread where people come to admire Elijah Wood's body of work. The quote had absolutely nothing to do with his acting and, as I've mentioned, taken out of context, cast a very poor light on him as a person. Even taken in context, it only reminded me of an uncomfortable and embarrassing incident from his personal life that, unfortunately, was reported in a gossip column.

I completely fail to see how a postive/moderate stance on slash fiction has anything to do with whether or not one thinks Elijah Wood is or is not foul mouthed, or how such a stance has anything to do with him at all. Additionally, anyone with a little sense clearly understands that there is no relation between slash fanfiction, which has been around for decades, and the way that he interpreted Frodo's role. The only possible link between the two is the very beautiful face that Elijah Wood has given to Frodo, which might not have existed in many readers' imaginations before. Even if that is so, his appearance still has nothing to do with the way the character of Frodo was written for the film, the way Peter Jackson directed Elijah Wood, or the way Elijah Wood ultimately performed the role. If you are suggesting that my postive/moderate stance on slash fiction is demeaning to or incompatible with an appreciation for Elijah Wood or his performance as Frodo, because he has publicly stated that he does not believe Frodo and Sam were lovers and he did not play the role as if they were, then I'm sorry, but I don't follow your logic at all, or understand how you would come to such a conclusion, so I cannot find a way to argue it.

I think the word "bitch" is a perfectly good word and definitely has its uses, in the right time and place. However, once again, I fail to understand the connection between people who are disturbed by the word in the wrong time and place and erotic fanfiction about hobbits, which is not about bitches, and in which no one, to my knowledge, has ever been referred to as one. I know quite a few older people and I greatly value their humor and their opinions, but I must say that your sense of humor, and your way of looking at things, are completely lost on me.

(((Brunhild))) (((Eldalieva)))
Regarding the sig quote, I think we're into the weird "sense of humor" arena here that varies from person to person, and certainly overseas. :k to both of you.

One of Elda's comments I did want to take a bit further:

from Eldalieva
[Elijah Wood's] appearance still has nothing to do with the way the character of Frodo was written for the film, the way Peter Jackson directed Elijah Wood, or the way Elijah Wood ultimately performed the role.

Definitely the screenplay predates EW's involvement. However, I think that Peter Jackson was in fact seduced by the eyes at some later point, despite his reported tendency to like close-ups anyway. In one of his interviews (I've forgotten which), he says, "Elijah can register such subtle emotion on his face that I loved doing close-ups on him."

I think all good directors notice what is working for their various actors, and tailor the performance to play to their strengths. I think this is common to the arts. I'm recalling (very dimly, so please accept many disclaimers) that Balanchine said something of the kind about having to adapt the choreography for every production: "This dancer turns very well, or leaps very well," and so on -- and adjusting the production to accommodate.

Elijah's definitely got the subtle emotion thing going on. Another of his longer shots that I just love is the Council of Elrond when the other Fellowship members join one by one. EW says nothing, just reacts. (Actually, I was bored yesterday and watched the FOTR SE DVD disc 4, the editing demo section where they showed the dailies that they collected into the finished piece. There's a particularly long shot of Elijah just reacting to the other actors coming in, and he stays perfectly in character the entire time, his expression conveying joy, surprise, fondness, etc etc without a word spoken. What director wouldn't love that?)

{{{peaceweaver}}}:p I was going to let tgshaw's little slip go by without comment--I got such a thrill thinking that my corruption of the mesmerizing Goldberry's name had burrowed its way into the subconscious of the faculty's most illustrious professor!

{{{tgshaw}}} How sweet of you to visit your mom for Mother's Day! I hope the weather is better there than here in Chicagoland--my hubby, driving a heavy SUV, nearly got blown off the road by the ferocious wind this morning.:eek:

I have nothing of value to contribute today.:rolleyes:

peaceweaver, I tried to pm you but your pm box was full. Very disappointing about the airline schedules.:( Will write again later!:k

Y'know, I think I've done that Goldberry/Goldenberry switch before :o . Guess I need to read that part of the book more often :rolleyes: -- except for the dreams the hobbits have there, the whole TB section isn't one of my favorites.

Weather-wise, I drove all the way yesterday in a pretty good rain, but today wasn't bad. Our tornado activity was the same time as Kansas City's, before the storm moved farther east, so things have calmed down here the last couple of days; hope they're better in Chicago by now :( .

mariol--Definitely agree with your point about good directors making use of their actors' strengths. PJ said in one interview (might have been the first Charlie Rose one, but I'm not sure) that in scenes involving conversations between Frodo and Gandalf, he'd start out wanting to have them on the screen together, but both Elijah and Sir Ian were so great in their close-ups that he often ended up changing his mind. --- But I do agree with Elda's original point there: that Elijah's looks didn't cause PJ to hint at a sexual relationship between Frodo&Sam.

Just pulled up the old Engrish subtitle thread in the Trilogy forum--but most of the people who posted there just linked to their favorites on the site which--as Brunhild pointed out--isn't there anymore :( . I suppose I can see why that particular one might have caused an upset (since the whole thing is based on an obviously pirated version--or maybe they were afraid some people wouldn't realize it was pirated, and think that NewLine actually supplied those subtitles :eek: ). But Samantha did list some of her favorites in the thread:
"I know it is old frog food"
"I am Arogon son of Alfred"
"my name Smeedle"
"Those without sole to still die for them"
"lovely big golden ships with noise"
"I bring word from Elfron of River Death"
And I guess I was a little more discreet in that thread :o --I still named the same quote as the funniest, but did it by calling it the subtitle that should have said, "Bring your pretty face to my ax." :D

-----------------

I stopped to get groceries on my way back into town tonight and in the store there was a sign advertising Parade magazine. It showed four covers of the magazine taken from the last year or so--one of which was Elijah's :cool: . Since the magazine comes out every week, they had a lot of covers to choose from. (I suppose I should have paid attention to what people were on the other covers chosen for the ad but, well, I didn't... :rolleyes: )

BTW, there was a bit on John Wayne's birthplace in a magazine my mom and I were looking at, and I told her about our little "Iowa trivia" discussion and the Cedar Rapids vs. Marion question. I asked her what she thought about it--since more and more celebrities are people who've been born in hospitals--and she agreed that the town where the family lived should be considered the birthplace, so that's another vote for Marion :p . That'd be my pick, too, mainly because a smaller town would be more likely to pay attention to a famous "native son." :)

Welcome back, tg! :k

Brunhild, that little quote always made me chuckle, but then we've all established that I'm a tad sick anyway ... :D

which is why - Prim, ain't you glad I never took a liking to Keanu? Imagine what I might have done to him. Heh heh :p

I'm going off for a little holiday, back to my hometown. To my dear home sweet home. Where the computer has died. :( I am soooo happy to be going home, but thoroughly distressed at the prospect of almost a week without the Internet. :o :rolleyes:

I'll see y'all later, then. :)

{{{{Faculty}}}}

ainon--You must have learnt "that little quote" by heart by now, so you won't suffer from "chuckle withdrawal symptoms" in the future :cool: ;) :p.

I have to take a week-long sabbatical from the Faculty because, as ainon, I'll be away from the Internet. (((Faculty))) :)

Best wishes for safe travel and all round good weeks off for ainon and Brunhild :) .

I hadn't weighed in on "that little quote" question because once I knew the story behind it, it didn't bother me personally--I will say, though, that I had "twinges" of wondering what someone who might be reading the thread who didn't know the story behind it might think, so I'm not sorry to see it gone.

Originally posted by Brunhild
...that it was EJW who gave a face to Frodo in her imagination...
Ah, the complex relationships among the various Frodos in our lives...

Book-Frodo and movie-Frodo having the same face doesn't make them the same Frodo, and it's certainly possible to see them differently. Thank goodness. Otherwise, I'd have the opposite problem. Since book-Frodo looked like Elijah Wood to me even before Elijah Wood was born :eek: , I'd have to think of book-Frodo-who-looks-just-like-EJW the same way that I think of movie-Frodo-who-looks-just-like-EJW. And I definitely don't!

Just because there happens to be an actor who's the spitting image of the Frodo I've carried in my imagination lo these many years, and he happened to be cast as Frodo in these movies ("...chance, if chance you call it"), doesn't mean I have to consider Elijah's positions on things when I'm dealing with book-Frodo--only when I'm dealing with how Elijah has interpreted the character in the movies.

But the relationships aren't always easily sorted out, as I've realized ever since I sat in front of my computer watching that very first internet-only trailer and whispered, "My God... It's him!" And that's in large part due not only to Elijah's looks but to how well he did his job.

Originally posted by tgshaw
...doesn't mean I have to consider Elijah's positions on things when I'm dealing with book-Frodo--only when I'm dealing with how Elijah has interpreted the character in the movies.

Exactly. The Eyes are not so dazzling that they completely impair a person's ability to form her own opinions, or to choose her own likes and dislikes!

Originally posted by tgshaw
"My God... It's him!" And that's in large part due not only to Elijah's looks but to how well he did his job.

I've always envied you for this, TG...it must have been an amazing and surreal experience to see the image you'd carried around in your head for so long become a reality. Since I think Elijah was meant to play Frodo, I'll bet there are a few people out there who have a similar tale to tell!

It wouldn't be completely true to say that Elijah Wood "gave Frodo a face" to me in my imagination. It's more like, he gave Frodo the face I'd always wanted him to have, and imagine he actually did have...a face that I'd previously found impossible to envision due to Tolkien's own somewhat sketchy description of him, and decades of disappointing artwork (the Hildebrant brothers, anyone?) In truth, the first time I saw Frodo appear on that screen in December of 2001, my first, knee-jerk reaction thought was, "Good God! It's Frodo Baggins!" And that was even before I found out how well he had done his job!

The recent discussion (and tension) here has given me much food for thought, and I've been trying to sort the issues out in my mind before posting anything. I admit to wondering whether these issues are too sensitive and we should just let them rest, but there seem to be various interesting matters of principle here that I have never really *fully* considered until now, and therefore I'd like to have a go.

If I offend anyone with the following, please be aware it is unintentional. I only wish to air some thoughts, I'll try to be balanced, and am not in any way certain that my views, or even my questions, are the correct ones. I do hope to get others' reactions and views.


The actor explaining his own role interpretation

Previously I have been disappointed that EJW has given relatively few detailed comments about his own role interpretation and the direction he received. Now I've realized that this implies a tremendous respect for the audience. The less he comments on these matters, the more he's showing that he respects and trusts his audience, and that he wants to leave them free to interpret his performance as Frodo and what he seeks to convey, without telling them what he was doing/thinking/showing in each scene.

I'm suddenly appreciating his relative silence on the details of the role a great deal.

All significant works of art are open to various interpretation and may be controversial. In acting such an important role from a work of literature that is loved by millions and interpreted in many different ways, I believe EJW would be fully aware that the film and his performance *would* be interpreted differently too. And the more subtle the acting, as is his trademark, the more people might read different things into his scenes.

Once he himself comments about what the direction was and what exactly he wanted to show, the audience's freedom in how to understand a scene and Frodo's motivation and actions seems to narrow considerably. Just as an example: Although he hasn't gone on at any great length about how the Ring is impacting Frodo, he *has* said something along the lines that it was played out as obsession / addiction. Those words, obsession and addiction, will probably be at the back of my head when I watch RotK. If the acting is good (AS IF it wouldn't be!!! ) it won't matter, of course, because it will be plain anyway. And yet.....

And I wonder; - on the question about whether Sam and Frodo were lovers, would EJW have commented at all if he hadn't received the question in interviews? I'm thinking he wouldn't have, and thus would have left that, too, open to audience interpretation..... accepting that some might see it that way. But of course, that's only speculation on my part. Once he got the question he gave a straight-forward, clear and yet corteous reply.


Should audiences feel bound by what the actor/director states re. their intention?

The obvious answer would be yes, I suppose. But giving this a second thought.....

I once was very hesitant about reading Tolkien's letters, because I was afraid that he would explain the intention of various matters differently than how I myself had interpreted them, thus giving me no choice but to follow the author in what the proper understanding of each matter was. But once I read what his letters had to say about Frodo, I found wonderful insight, yet also (I beleive) a surprising openness about freedom to interpret matters otherwise. (Apart from his adamant opposition to allegorical interpretations..... however all of this is very uncertain ground for me, it would take tg to explain this properly or to confirm I have understood it correctly.)

But the point is, despite Tolkien's considered replies explaining his intentions and opinion as to for instance such sensitive questions as "did Frodo fail", I was left with the impression that he was relatively open to each reader forming his/her own views.

I would like to think that PJ, EJW and the others involved in LotR might take the same stance, ..... even if that means risking interpretations diverging from what they were actually trying to convey at the time.

I may be misremembering this, but on the "are Fodo and Sam lovers" question, didn't EJW (after stating that they aren't, and he didn't act it that way), also say that everyone are free to form their own view, or something along those lines? If so, did he by that statement just acknowledge that people may (unfortunately) interpret matters differently than he acted them, or did he thereby actually accept different interpretations?

Btw; - Does anyone have the actual quote of that particular question / reply?

To use another example that may be less controversial, when I saw the little scene between Sam and Frodo in Rivendell where Sam is all packed and ready to go home, I thought that Frodo seemed quite ambivalent about going home, and that EJW tried to show that the Ring was using its pull on Frodo to make him hesitate, make him want to keep it, make him wonder whether he'd be able to give it up. Yet in the cast commentary, EJW is quite clear about what Frodo is feeling: "....he's realizing that his time with the Ring is over.. ( ) He realizes he wants to give it up and go back to the Shire".

That he clearly wants to give it up is difficult for me to see, even after having heard EJW's commentary. (But I very much appreciate the point he's making about how poignant the scene at the Council becomes, after he's decided to give the Ring up and wants to go home. ) Yet, if I *still* see the "I'm ready to go home" scene as also portraying the Ring's continued pull on Frodo's mind, would that then be disrespecting EJW? (I hope not..... :eek: )


How far may an interpretation deviate before it becomes disaccord?

I'm also giving thought to at what point an interpretation or use of an actor's work clearly becomes "open disaccord", as Brunhild says, rather than nuances and smaller additions / alterations and differences of opinion. I do realize that most people would say that Frodo and Sam being presented as lovers would be clearly in disaccord with EJW's statement to the contrary.

Yet what his and Sean Astin's acting in the films continually and beautifully *does* show, is the deep and abiding love, affection, tenderness and respect between Frodo and Sam.

The F/S slash fics I've read all have that love, tenderness and respect as their main focus, and use desire and physical intimacy between the two mainly as a means by which that love and affection is expressed. In that sense it might at least be possible to argue that other uses of their role characters might potentially be far *more* contrary to their roles and acting than that particular type of slash fic.

Now if in any such slash fics the characters *had* used the word "bitch" as integral part of their spoken or internal vocabulary in their relationship (and what a totally *awful* mental image this gives me of what such fics would portray, I'm horrified at the thought ! :eek: ), those *would* IMO be grave disrespect of actors, author, characters, film and book alike. But the fics I'm discussing here contain the very opposite of such sentiments.

I'd like to expound on this but I'll see what kind of reactions (if any) I receive. If people are offended I'll remove the post or parts of it.

Maeg, those are the kinds of questions I'd love to be able to hear Elijah talk about some time...

Originally posted by Maeglian
But the point is, despite Tolkien's considered replies explaining his intentions and opinion as to for instance such sensitive questions as "did Frodo fail", I was left with the impression that he was relatively open to each reader forming his/her own views.
Oh, absolutely--in the Prologue to LotR, he says the difference between allegory and applicability is that allegory comes from "the supposed domination of the author" while applicability "resides in the freedom of the reader." In some of his other work (both fiction and "professorial") he doesn't always avoid allegory, but IMVHO whenever he's dealing with Middle-earth and its people and history, he stays very true to applicability.

He keeps that stance by maintaining his position as Middle-earth's historian rather than its creator, and by treating it (as he also says in the Prologue) as "feigned history." An expert historian will have studied opinions, as JRRT does in his letters (sometimes Tolkien also explain details of the history that he didn't put into the books, which is something else a historian would do), but a good one will realize that there are other possible interpretations. As I think I've said before, IMHO there were only two types of interpretations that really seemed to "peeve" him (and, oh, my, he could get peeved :eek: ) -- 1. interpretations that were in any way inconsistent with the "known history" as given in the books, and 2. any interpretations that were offered as the answer, because those not only decided what he "meant" when he wrote certain things, but also implied that other readers didn't have the freedom to see things differently and still be "right."

In fact, IMVVHO (with no evidence except his Middle-earth writings themselves), he not only allowed readers freedom to interpret what he'd written, he purposely wrote in such a way that they'd almost have to, if they wanted to get below the surface of the story.

I would like to think that PJ, EJW and the others involved in LotR might take the same stance, ..... even if that means risking interpretations diverging from what they were actually trying to convey at the time.
I was thinking just that as I was reading the first part of the post, and it would certainly be fitting--just as I'm glad PJ has used historically accurate details and dialogue that hints at things below the surface. IMHO, that's all part of the "spirit of the book" as it shows up in the movies.

...Yet, if I *still* see the "I'm ready to go home" scene as also portraying the Ring's continued pull on Frodo's mind, would that then be disrespecting EJW? (I hope not..... :eek: )
I hope not, too :( . I see the scene the same way--that Frodo's struggling with it a bit until he actually says, "I am ready to go home," which does seem to me to be honest. (Has EJW ever given an explanation of why Frodo seems irritated with Sam there? That's always been one reason I've interpreted the scene as being less than comfortable.)

Another instance was Ian McKellan's description of the expression on Gandalf's face when Frodo volunteers at the Council to take the Ring to Mordor. He said it was all pride and affection, which surprised just about everybody who'd commented on it, I think (including me), because it seemed so obvious that there was also a good deal of pain and/or sorrow in it.

Is it possible to look at the opinions of the actor the same way as the opinions of the author: that he's an "expert" on the character, but doesn't necessarily know everything about him? If so, maybe the same limits would apply--that the viewer can claim the freedom of "applicability" as long as: 1. the interpretation doesn't contradict something else in the movies, and 2. the viewer doesn't claim that it's the interpretation, but says that it's only how he or she sees it.

---More to say, but will have to come back later.

Very interesting questions :k .

Hi everyone :)

Thanks people for the birthday wishes! :k I had a really nice day :)

Hiya to Mariol :)

Luth waves after Ainon and Brunhild - don't be gone too long :)

Have you seen the new pics from a magazine that Bunnie's posted over at the Hugs Haven? Tres interesting!

Speak later,

{{{Faculty}}}

{{{EJW}}}

Sorry, I know I don't usually post in here, but Maeglian's tickled my noodle...

I think most actors can't necessarily precisely put into words what they're thinking or feeling at a given moment in a performance. I too find McKellan's description of that Gandalf moment very different from what I think is going on there. But I think that's because some actors don't act frame-by-frame, as we watch frame-by-frame. They are in the moment of the narrative. So I would surmise that what was really going through Ian's mind at that moment was something like "Wow. This little hobbit is taking on this impossible task" and then just reacting accordingly. He isn't thinking to himself "pride and affection" - he's thinking "Frodo is an amazing hobbit" and his face reflects all the emotions that go with that.

I think the same is true of the Rivendell scene. I don't think Elwood is telling himself "okay, I'm relieved and ready to go home." I think it's more like he puts himself in the position - "I've risked life and limb to get here and now someone's actually proposing I can return home" and then reacting as he would in that situation. I think when he talks about "addiction/obsession", for example, he is just saying what sorts of thoughts help him guide his performance the way he and his director want it to go, not necessarily what the audience should be thinking when they see it. It's more visceral.

I agree that Tolkien purposely left things up for interpretation. I think most good actors do too. And I think Elwood does. So, no, I don't think that getting a different view of a performance than the actor indicates he intended is wrong. Many actors just let the performance speak for itself and would rather not dissect it.

Hi, all! Long time no see. I've missed you guys!

I am hopelessly behind on reading this thread, and may never catch up. However, I just posted some new pictures of Elijah over on the Hugs thread, and then I wondered if y'all would like me to post the interview that accompanied the photos here (I dug back a little ways and didn't spot it already here...)? It's from a UK magazine called I-D, the June issue.

Let me know, and I'll post away!

Bunnie, good to see you here :) and of course - please post away!!

Woo-hoo! I tickled Elevensies' noodle! Great! :)

Have to rush off again, I'm totally behind with RL stuff at the moment; - that's the time when I sit down and write e-x-t-r-e-m-e-l-y longwinded posts, of course.... :rolleyes: at self!

Interview from the UK magazine I-D. There is some very cool stuff in here, not the least of which is the interviewers obvious respect and admiration for Elijah's work. :) (I hope I managed to find and edit all the swear words. :p ) So, without further ado...

Oh! One small further ado ;) ... there is an Ice Storm spoiler about half-way through. It's in the paragraph right after the "pure evil" comment by the interviewer, if you want to avoid it.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Elijah Wood is taller than you think. Five foot six inches, socks, no shoes. Not your first pick for basketball, perhaps, but no cloven-hooved midget neither. A little less than average, let's say. And compared to Prince- that official yardstick of celebrity littleness- a veritable king. Elijah is older than you think, too. January 28 1981, 23 next birthday. A 'boy' only in pin-up parlay. A big kid only when he wants to be. Reality: a testosterone-filled twenty-something, with a half-inch of stubble to prove it. A scruffy indie lad who smokes and dates and falls over when drunk. Legal in every conceivable way.

Still, it's hard to think of him like this. As a Grown-Up, a Fully-Fledged Adult. Hard to not to want to call him 'young man' and gently patronise him. Hard, I imagine, for young ladies in his circle not to mother him, old ladies not to pinch his cheek and slip him a shiny coin. Yes, he says, he still gets IDed once in a while at bars, and no, he does not need to shave every day. Hard also, back in the 'real world' of Hollywood, for casting execs to let him move on. To cast off the coarse tunic and oversized hairy feet of his Lord of the Rings incarnation and take on roles that reflect his age and changing outlook. To tackle the sticky stuff on Grown-Up life.

Elijah's quandary: he has perhaps been too successful. Elijah first heard about Peter Jackson's ambitious plans to shoot the JRR Tolkien trilogy back in 1997 and doggedly pursued the main lead role (he corralled director-friend George Huang into making an epic audition tape filmed around the Hollywood hills for the purpose). Six years on and he has so definitively established himself as a two-foot-something fantasy-figure-made-flesh that right now it's hard to picture him as anything else. Frodo-Elijah, Elijah-Frodo. Where does one end and the other begin in the collective imagination? At film premieres, for instance, press photographers shout 'Hobbit!' as Elijah walks by. And whilst the veteran child actor must himself take credit for this transformation- and he possibly will at next Spring's Oscars- clearly the production's phenomenal press machine, pounding relentlessly away for the last three years, has generously helped confirm him as The People's Frodo.

Elijah has one more Ring to get through and then he's done. Fun as it's been (and we all know from the seemingly endless tales of on-set hi-jinks, group tattoos and general gang camaraderie just how much fun it's been), Elijah must now move on. Of everyone involved in the project, the 22-year old perhaps faces the biggest challenge ahead. Whilst Peter Jackson is now prepping for his multi-zwillion dollar remake of King Kong, Orlando Bloom is working his niche as a cheaper Colin Farrell and Liv Tyler is probably scoping round for more ethereal-but-dim parts, Elijah must find roles that represent him in a fresh, unseen way, or face the prospect of Middle-Earth purgatory: The Ring can bring great joy but also despair, blah blah blah.



Hello Elijah, how are you?

I'm very well, thank you.

What are you up to at the moment?

Err, nothing much right now. About a week ago I finished principal photography on a film with Michel Gondry. It's called The Eternal Sunshine Of the Spotless Mind.

What's it like?

Oh my God, I have no idea! It's a Charlie Kaufmann script, which means that it's strange and amazing and confusing and I'm really not sure if I understood what was going on. [Laughs] I'm not sure if anyone quite understood what was going on. I guess we'll just have to see. It's gonna be interesting though, that's for sure. The combination of Michel Gondry and Charlie Kaufmann was perfect. Weirdly perfect.

And you play a scientist.

Well, sort of. The film's about a couple played by Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet who agree to have bad memories removed from their brain to save their relationship. I play a technician who moves in on Kate Winslet when Jim Carrey's having his brain removed. It sounds quite snidey put like that, doesn't it?

Yeah, a little bit. And did you do much scientific research for this role? Clue up on lobotomies and so forth?

[Giggles uproariously] Naw, there was very little research required for this role.

Did the initial attraction in working with Michel come from his music video work? I know you like your music.

I loved his first film, Human Nature, though most people never got to see it. But I'd been a fan of Michel's for quite some time. All those incredible videos that he's done with Bjork.

What music are you into at the moment then?

For some reason, I'm having a bit of a rock moment right now.

I think a lot of people are having a rock moment right now.

Well, I woke up this morning to the Velvet Underground and, I dunno, I love the new White Stripes album, like the rest of the world. Lots of things, really. I just heard the new Grandaddy album and its amazing. Also [reels off a list of cool-to-obscure punk and electronic bands that would make any music editor proud]. Actually I've just got back from South By Southwest [Texas music conference]. Friends of mine are in this band called Puny Humans and I went to support them.

Loony humans?

No, Puny Humans [chuckles]. I saw them play and then just wandered around. Snuck into a few different things. I saw The Coral. Oh my God, they were fantastic.

I've heard you've got quite a CD collection as well. Do you go on Elton John-style record binges, just go into Tower Records and buy everything they have?

[Giggles] No, but when I'm filming, they always give me a certain amount of money each month and I always end up spending most of it on CDs.

Like your pocket money?

Yes, like my pocket money.

I wanted to ask you about Lord Of The Rings stuff as well.

There's only one film left now. Yep, just the one. But it's not really ready yet. We have to go back to New Zealand to finish a few scenes.

This one's meant to be the most intense, isn't it?

Yes, it's the final one, the climax to the whole story and everyone's really excited about it. I think they're gonna give this one a really big push. I think it's gonna be crazy.

A big push? They've pushed it pretty hard already.

[Laughs] Yeah, they absolutely have. And it's got seemingly bigger every year.

Is there a part of you that's relieved it's almost over?

No, not at all!

Not even all the endless press junkets?

Well, I use that time to catch up with everyone who worked on the film. This time will be kind of sad because it's the last opportunity for us all to be together.

[Interviewer is determined to have a bad word said about the experience] But you must sometimes get fed up of it all. Think, Elijah! All the same inane questions asked over and over again.

Oh yeah, it does get pretty inane at times.

Thank you! And there's only so many times you can tell that story about all the actors getting tattoos together.

You'd think so, wouldn't you? But even when we were doing press for The Two Towers, I had to repeat that story hundreds of time. I was like 'Look, we told you all about this last time. I even showed most of you, for goodness sake!'

[Elijah's tattoo is situated below the trouser line] Maybe they just wanted to see the tattoo again?

You reckon? Well, maybe.



to be cont'd next post...

cont'd from last post




Do you think people will allow you to move on from the trilogy?

This is something that i've been thinking about a lot. I do hope people will allow me to move on. But I think I switch off from a film much quicker than other people do. Mostly by the time one of my films has come out, I've forgotten about it. I think that's a survival thing so it doesn't drive me crazy.

Do you think you'll always be stuck with Frodo?

Yeah, in some ways I'll always be attached to Frodo in people's minds. But I think the character is treated in quite a human, realistic way - it's not cartoon-like - so I hope that shows what I can do as an actor. In time, I think I'll be allowed to move on to non-hobbity roles again.

You say that so dryly.

And so seriously!

Has LOTR affected the choices you've made since, the kind of part you want to play?

Absolutely. Just being drawn to smaller roles in smaller films. I don't think I want to make a big Hollywood blockbuster film again. At least, not for some time. It simply doesn't interest me. Plus, the kind of directors I want to work with aren't making those kinds of films. I'm far more drawn towards the independent side of things. With people like Spike Jonze, Chris Cunningham, and Mike Mills making films, it's an amazing time to work in cinema. But there's still a lot of crap out there.

One of the interesting things about your role as Frodo is that there's no sexual element to it. Something which is pretty unique in recent times. Are you excited to be able to play some roles with a bit of how's-your-father in them?

[Laughs shyly] Well, yeah. There are so many different characters that I want to play, so many different aspects of life that i want to express. And certainly I'm drawn towards some more 'romantic' roles now. Let's put it like that.

I'd like to see you play pure evil.

I would, too.


Elijah has been working in the industry since he was eight years old. Previous to Lord Of the Rings, he had appeared in over 25 films - a fact often ignored in the trilogy's attendant hype. From the relatively inauspicious beginnings of 'Video Game Boy 1' in Back To The Future II, he has gone on to deliver some touchingly honest performances - culminating in his tragic turn as Mikey Carver in Ang Lee's The Ice Storm, seduced by Christina Ricci in a Richard Nixon face mask, then electrocuted to death. We'll quickly pass over Flipper: The Movie at this point. And that Paula Abdul video.

Okay, the standard question for former child stars: did you feel like you missed out on your childhood?

Absolutely not. I've had some incredible experiences that not many kids get ot have if they go to school and do all those normal things.

Did you ever envy young people around you?

Well, there was a period of time when I resented what I was doing and wasn't sure if I wanted to continue acting. I felt like I had no friends and I would look around at other young people and be really envious. But that time passed.

That's sad. How old were you?

Like 10 or 11.

I thought you were gonna say 18 or something.

No, I had plenty of friends by then. But even today, most of my mates are, like, 10, 15 years older than me.

Speaking to you now, you seem so reserved and shy. How do you cope with the level of personal intrusion that your work brings?

There's only been one time when it's got to a really intense level. And that was when I was seeing Franka Potente [the German star of Run, Lola, Run]. That got to be f***ing crazy, really f***ing crazy. But it calmed down again afterwards.

Have you ever snapped?

Not really. There was one Christmas Eve when I was out having a good time and there was a guy following me with a camera and I was really creeped out by it. I went over to him and challenged him about what he was doing and he explained that the newspaper he worked for simply didn't have enough pictures of me. He was just doing his job, I guess. I didn't really like it, but I could understand it.

You're so tolerant! Have situations like that forced you to grow up faster?

Yeah, I guess so. I'm 22 now but I've felt like an adult for so many years. Constantly being surrounded by grown-ups in a professional environment meant that I had to be.

It must be incredibly frustrating sometimes then, the difference between the way people perceive you and the way you feel about yourself?

[Laughs self-deprecatingly] Yeah, that's pretty much been the frustration. I used to really struggle with it. At times I was desperate to look older than I did. The difficult thing is, there's really nothing you can do about it. But recently I've learnt to deal with things and accept them far more. And actually now, I think I'm finally beginning to fit my age, which is great. To finally catch up with myself.

And I think as you get older you realise that looking youthful, shall we say, can be a powerful too.

For sure.

So would you still take a teenage role now?

Yeah, if the part was right. I don't have a problem with that anymore.

And you're playing an adolescent in Thumbsucker, the debut from video director, Mike Mills?

Oh actually, I'm not. I was so excited by this part and I was a massive fan of Walter Kirn's novel [boy attempts to cure oral obsessions through sex, team sports and Mormonism] but it's taken a year and a half to set it up, and Mike and I sat down and had a meeting about it this week and we decided that I'm too old for it now.

[B]You're too old?

I know, imagine! In the past , I've been turned down for roles for a whole variety of reasons. But never for being too old.

That must be a weird feeling for you.

Yeah, it is. On one level, I'm really disappointed but on another, it's quite a novelty. Right now, I'm trying to enjoy the moment.


Elijah is smarter than you probably thought as well, He know that there is a certain amount of reinvention required after Lord Of the Rings. And he knows his days as Peach Fuzz are numbered. His next (non-hobbit) release, the savvy apartment comedy Try Seventeen (co-starring Debbie Harry and Wood's former love Franka Potente), will be one of his last teenage roles. Instead of trading, Michael J Fox-ily, on his boyish good looks - the slight frame, the snub nose, the kind of sad wide eyes sported by small puppies on greeting cards - he is actively seeking out the risky and alternative. Projects that will receive limited releases. Features that have no franchising deals with Burger King. He does not, I think, want to be made into a plastic figurine ever again. He's bigger than that now. Much bigger.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By rights I shouldn't even be here ;). But then there are the left and therefore a general strike in France tomorrow ;).

Quite amusingly, the discussion has taken its current fruitful course because of a slight misinterpretation of what was being said before :cool:.

It's absolutely crucial for everyone to have a personal interpretation of a work of art. It's the way art works :). Sharing personal views on art with the world at large in essays, reviews, (funny) parodies, and (tactful) message board posts is a good thing too. But, IMVHO, posting fanfic on the Internet is a somewhat different issue. Almost by definition, fanfic is "affectionate plagiarism" (No Offense Intended: Just a Literary Term). Thus, IMVHO, if a fan insists on making her fic publicly available, then she should perhaps consider not adding insult to injury by posting something that is seriously inconsistent with explicitely expressed or easily perceivable views of the original artist. (Notice that someone who is not a fan need not have any such quibbles at all.)

Posted by Elevensies
I don't think Elwood is telling himself "okay, I'm relieved and ready to go home." I think it's more like he puts himself in the position [...] and then reacting as he would in that situation.

This looks strangely familiar ;). I'm afraid that noone (not even EJW himself) is able to explain what exactly is happening at the moment. For instance, seasoned stage actors are often able to play a bawdy practical joke on a partner while acting sublime tragedy :D. Unfortunately, we don't have funds to organise an experimental department at the Faculty and discover the truth by repeated experiments :p.

BunnieBugs--Huge thanks for the interview! :k

OK, I admit it; - I snook back in here to read that interview. And glad I am that I did!

Thank you, Bunnie! :k

Some highlights; -

And whilst the veteran child actor must himself take credit for this transformation- and he possibly will at next Spring's Oscars-

> :cool: Great! I hope we'll both read and hear much more like that!


Q: Thank you! And there's only so many times you can tell that story about all the actors getting tattoos together.

> I never thought I'd finally see the day when an interview would contain *that* statement from the interviewer!


A: You'd think so, wouldn't you? But even when we were doing press for The Two Towers, I had to repeat that story hundreds of time. I was like 'Look, we told you all about this last time. I even showed most of you, for goodness sake!'

> :D Snerk!!


Q:I'd like to see you play pure evil.
A: I would, too.

> Wouldn't we all!


Oh, and finally confirmation that Thumbsucker isn't happening, - that's no big surprise.


Brunhild, you had a chance of turning back, and you did! :D
All I can do is :o furiously and stupidly if I have misunderstood you. But however that is, at least it set me thinking through those questions more thoroughly than I'd done otherwise, that was useful for me, and therefore I'm happy even so! :)


Hmmm, about fans treating the material with respect, the following is a sidenote for sure, but still: I imagine Bakshi was a serious and well-intentioned fan of Tolkien. Yet what a total travesty he IMO managed to make of poor Sam! :(


Oh, and now I'm having this sudden vision of EJW running ceaselessly after FotR critics, shouting: "You got it all wrong! Your interpretation is totally off! I was *not* trying to portray a deer caught in the headlights or a frightened rabbit!!"

Time for me to shut up for today.......

Bunnie--Thank you, thank you for that interview! New material has been sparse lately. Now we know what's going on with Thumbsucker, and a bit more about Elijah's character in Eternal Sunshine. And evidence that Elwood's pretty much the same person he's always been :) . And a fairly intelligent interviewer--yay :) . So no future projects that we're aware of, except for the final RotK filming, right? And the press tours, etc... maybe it's just as well!

Originally posted by Elevensies
I agree that Tolkien purposely left things up for interpretation. I think most good actors do too. And I think Elwood does. So, no, I don't think that getting a different view of a performance than the actor indicates he intended is wrong. Many actors just let the performance speak for itself and would rather not dissect it.
IMHO, anything that qualifies as art has an element that simply can't be dissected, and I think Elijah's acting certainly does. I'm thinking especially (but not exclusively) of those moments when there's such a combination of emotions going on at once that it's impossible to label them--but, yet, we can tell they're absolutely right for the character at that time and place, even if we can't say exactly what they are.

One little but IMHO just-right thing I noticed through the ability to be up close (screenwise) to TTT lately ;) :


Slightly gross bodily fluid warning :rolleyes:





By the time Frodo finishes saying, "They're here. They've come," there's some definite saliva action going on. Thick and mucous-like, or he'd probably be drooling. [Well, there was a warning! :p ] The beginning of his loss of control over his body, including his senses and movement? Maybe he's unable to swallow--or not aware that he needs to?

Such a small detail, but I think it says more than words could about the state he's falling into. For me, it turned those words into what seemed like a last attempt to warn Sam and/or Faramir by making them aware of what's happening to him, before he loses the ability to do so (just my own interpretation, of course ;) ).



End of slime discussion :p

Re: saliva action :p. In fact, this little bit of physical (?) acting may be pretty much anything, from a fairly standard way of showing "demonical possession" à la gothic/horror films to a subtle hint: "Don't you see that I'm getting all gollumy and slimey inside my lovely Renaissance frame?" :veryweirdsmiley:
Posted by Maeglian
I imagine Bakshi was a serious and well-intentioned fan of Tolkien. Yet what a total travesty he IMO managed to make of poor Sam!
I'm not so sure that what I said about fanfic extends verbatim to professional adaptations to other media. A softcore film version of LOTR would be somewhat gross, though :D. I haven't seen Bakshi's film so I'd have to guess your meaning ;). IIRC, Tolkien wrote somewhere that he would prefer omitting sizable portions of the narrative to distorting it. This might apply to character description as well. So Bakshi might have decided to portray Sam as a purely comic character. BTW, PJ's movie-Frodo is to a certain extent derived from book-Frodo by a similar procedure of eliminating some character traits and highlighting other.

In general, the readiness and grace with which a film director (or an actor) can noticeably deviate from the source material depend very much on his own artistic credentials. (Very advanced dudes can easily mutilate the Gospel :D.) It's probably likely that Tolkien would not be too upset by movie-Frodo because of EJW's undeniable artistry. One more example is that the first thing PJ did after the huge success of FOTR was to re-shoot the Osgiliath scene in a seriously non-canonical way (Faramir craves the Ring, Frodo throws a tantrum, Sam makes a speech :p ;)).

Originally posted by Brunhild
A softcore film version of LOTR would be somewhat gross, though :D.
Yes--it was quite a relief that we didn't get anything resembling "Fritz the Cat" :eek: !
IIRC, Tolkien wrote somewhere that he would prefer omitting sizable portions of the narrative to distorting it. This might apply to character description as well. So Bakshi might have decided to portray Sam as a purely comic character.
That's an interesting idea regarding Bakshi's Sam, and one I haven't heard or thought of before. I'm something of a Bakshi defender--not that the movie was perfect in any way :eek: , but that it did have some good points. Sam's depiction seems to be one of the most negative things about it, but in a way it could make sense if you didn't have time to fully develop the character (even so, I will admit that there was no reason his head had to be shaped like a potato :rolleyes: ). From what Sean Astin has said, PJ originally wanted "his" Sam to be basically comic relief, but Sean argued against the idea so much that it was changed. One thing about Bakshi's characters: IMVHO someone would have to be seriously scewed to imagine any slash element between his Frodo and Sam (I'll stay away from Aragorn & Boromir in their short skirts :rolleyes: )! Interestingly, the man who made the first X-rated cartoon eliminated any hint of any kind of romance from LotR: no Arwen, no Faramir, no Rosie.

Bakshi omits a lot--more than PJ does--but the parts that are there are more "book canon." In some scenes, you can follow along in the book word-for-word, and I don't mean just with the dialogue but with every action, how someone says something, etc. (the scene at the ford is probably the best example). I've always put that down at least partially to having Peter Beagle as one of the screenwriters. I think Beagle would be someone who'd want to stick as closely as possible to how Tolkien would have wanted things done, and I do remember that statement about preferring that something be omitted rather than distorted--from Tolkien's discussion of Z's screenplay, possibly? But Beagle's also a book writer more than a screen writer, and some people have complained that the Bakshi script sticks too closely to the book and should have been more adapted to film. (Takes a mighty brave person to tackle not so much Tolkien's works as Tolkien's fans! It's impossible to please everybody!)

BTW, PJ's movie-Frodo is to a certain extent derived from book-Frodo by a similar procedure of eliminating some character traits and highlighting other.
I think that could be said of PJ's takes on most of the characters. One thing that impressed me in FotR was how consistently that was done. The characteristics that were stressed were stressed throughout, and the story threads that were chosen (there are too many of those in the book to follow all of them) were ones that "fit" with what was being emphasized in the characters. I'm not sure what to say about that yet for TTT--I think I'll have to wait and see how some things play out in RotK before making a judgment.

It's probably likely that Tolkien would not be too upset by movie-Frodo because of EJW's undeniable artistry. One more example is that the first thing PJ did after the huge success of FOTR was to re-shoot the Osgiliath scene in a seriously non-canonical way (Faramir craves the Ring, Frodo throws a tantrum, Sam makes a speech.
Those who've been following this thread from the beginning won't be surprised that I agree with that first statement :) . With all the "chance, if chance you call it" events that led up to Elijah's casting, it's my firmly-held belief that Tolkien was working behind the scenes. He was protective of his characters (especially Frodo and Bilbo, just IMHO), and wouldn't have been beyond pulling a few strings to get the right actors in the parts--even from where he is now :) .

The second statement, OTOH, is one reason many people (including myself, I'm afraid :( ) hoped that TTT wouldn't be quite as successful as FotR.

Can't stay, must run. But I just had to say ***THANK YOU*** to BunnieBugs for posting that interview. :k

Bad news about Thumbsucker, though. :( I was looking forward to this project.

But the good news is: "And certainly I'm drawn towards some more 'romantic' roles now." May I second that? ;)

And on the topic of audience's (mis)interpretation of works of art: some artists would argue that there is no one right response. In fact, the most enduring works of art are those which allow for a variety of responses from many different audiences. One of the "proofs" for me of the status of PJ's movies of LoTR is just the depth of and variety of reactions it has provoked among audiences. That is what art is for. :)

Originally posted by peaceweaver
...One of the "proofs" for me of the status of PJ's movies of LoTR is just the depth of and variety of reactions it has provoked among audiences. That is what art is for. :)
And, IMHO, it's one of the most important ways that the movies keep "the spirit of the book."

Here's a crossword puzzle (in People magazine, linked from TORN) that the Faculty should have a pretty easy time with...

http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/view/6601

Mel

Posted by tgshaw
He [Tolkien] was protective of his characters (especially Frodo and Bilbo, just IMHO), and wouldn't have been beyond pulling a few strings to get the right actors in the parts--even from where he is now ;).
[ Absolutely Non Serious Mode On ]
This proposition poses a difficult theological problem, I'm afraid. If it were true, we would have to assume that Tolkien--where he is now--does have a lot of information about the state of affairs here. Then he is probably aware of the unrestrained flow of Internet fanfic. Wouldn't this awareness turn the place where he is into the very opposite kind of place for him?
[ Absolutely Non Serious Mode Off ]

Edit: Somewhat more seriously, the short story "Pierre Menard, Author of Don Quixote" written by Jorge Luis Borges in 1939 (sic!) already explains--albeit in a startling way--the intricacies of interpretation, fanfiction, and respect for the author. A half-baked translation into English can be found online here (http://www.zooleika.org.uk/langue/borges/menard.html).

RL has been keeping me busy, but I'd like to follow up on the discussion that Maeglian originally introduced:

from Maeglian
Previously I have been disappointed that EJW has given relatively few detailed comments about his own role interpretation and the direction he received. Now I've realized that this implies a tremendous respect for the audience. The less he comments on these matters, the more he's showing that he respects and trusts his audience, and that he wants to leave them free to interpret his performance as Frodo and what he seeks to convey, without telling them what he was doing/thinking/showing in each scene.
I love this idea. It's certainly another vote for those folks who give Elijah credit for being wise beyond his years.

Regarding the "Want to go home" scene in Rivendell:

That he clearly wants to give it up is difficult for me to see, even after having heard EJW's commentary.
I think this is another example of the artistry of acting. IIRC, this is one of the pick-up shots filmed for FOTR (I remember one of the writers' comments from the DVD how Sean Astin clearly had been losing weight). So Elijah had in his head the entire character of Frodo, from start to finish. Regardless of what EW was consciously trying to portray (or portray to PJ's direction), as Frodo EW would have included the pull of the Ring in there, even if subconsciously.

Ditto Ian McKellan's comment about Gandalf's reaction at the Council. The man who said, "Elijah reminds me of those statues of idealized young men on war-memorials throughout the world," would have to have somewhere in his consciousness the bitter regret over losing so many young lives to a terrible conflict, no matter how necessary the cause. I feel that writers constantly include all sorts of their unconscious beliefs and favorite themes in a piece of writing. It seems reasonable to conclude that an actor would include his beliefs (as appropriate to his character) in a performance, even if the actor was not overtly aware that he was doing so.

This sounds like I think the actors are slightly out of control. I don't mean that! But I think that people are complicated critters. There is so much to a performance and to creating a work of art that we have to rely on our subconscious to fill in the blanks for us. I notice it with some authors because their work starts to sound all the same to me; they keep exploring the same themes. I think one of the most difficult things for an artist to achieve is to keep challenging him/herself to grow into new areas, regardless of the themes or beliefs that seem particularly tantalizing to the individual.

Ack, must run. I'll conclude in another post.

But first, Maeglian asked for the original EW quote. It's on the nyblade.com site. The relevant bit is:

When told that Frodo has been embraced by the gay community, Elijah Woods, 21, exclaims, " Have we all? Yay! I think that's up for interpretation. I think the gay community has certainly embraced it as a beautiful, special thing, and I think it CAN be interpreted that way."

He admits the connotation is in Tolkien but not the film. "We saw it as just this incredibly great friendship and people who cared about each other and would do anything for each other," he says. "One would give to the other, when the other couldn't, and vice versa. That's just the beauty of their friendship."

If the audience wants to read that as "gay," that's fine with Woods. "It's good to know that people appreciate the relationship, because it is powerful, and it is integral to both individual journeys," he says. "Frodo wouldn't make it without Sam and Sam wouldn't make it without Frodo. That's really important. You get that in this film, and it becomes even more relevant in the third movie."

Regarding both Maeg's and mariol's posts on acting--I love this discussion, because the more I look at acting as an "art form" (something I confess I never did before I started paying attention to Elijah's artistry), the more it all makes sense. Great insights. Thanks. :)

Brunhild--Since you were in "Absolutely Non Serious Mode" :) , I won't go into the theology of the communion of saints, the "eternal now," or the meaning of perfect joy. ;) But your idea made me :D :D , with the image of JRRT in "old curmudgeon mode" reacting to what he sees on the internet: "How did it come to this? Where was Christopher when I needed him? I suppose he was editing another volume of those ridiculous notes instead of doing his job by slapping lawsuits on these people!" :D

--And that Borges translation is a bit spotty, isn't it :eek: ? I know I've read a complete English translation of that piece , but of course don't remember where. I just know it wasn't on the internet.

Mel--As a crossword puzzle junkie, thanks for the one from People. I had to guess on a couple of letters in the lower right-hand corner (completely unrelated to Elijah or LotR--golf :confused: ?), but enjoyed it much.

Just got an email from a visitor to my website saying that Chain of Fools is no longer available from yesasia.com :rolleyes: . She's found another Asian source and has ordered it from there, and will let me know the outcome. What is it about this movie :confused: ?

tgshaw--IMVHO, The Chain of Fools is a little bit too much of a Pulp Fiction clone. CoF is not so gory and brutal, of course, but it's not so original either. (Not that I seriously believe such considerations are taken into account by distributors ;).)
Posted by tgshaw
And that Borges translation is a bit spotty, isn't it :eek:? I know I've read a complete English translation of that piece , but of course don't remember where. I just know it wasn't on the internet.
Unfortunately, it's the best link I could find. The application of copyright regulations is somewhat selective nowadays, isn't it? ;) Of course, "Collected Fictions" by Borges are available from amazon.com. IMVVHO, "Pierre Menard..." and "Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius" ( not so spotty translation (http://www.zooleika.org.uk/langue/borges/tlon.html)) are absolutely indispensable reading for a serious Tolkienite (or any other -ite, for that matter) ;).

Non Serious Edit: Tgshaw, the communion of saints is precisely the "difficult theological problem" I was Absolutely Non Seriously referring to :).

I'm back! Here are the rest of my thoughts that I was going to post, plus a few from this morning's posts.

from tgshaw
Is it possible to look at the opinions of the actor the same way as the opinions of the author: that he's an "expert" on the character, but doesn't necessarily know everything about him?
I think this is a terrific way to look at an artistic contribution. You might also add that the actor/author/artist doesn't know everything about him/herself.

I'm recalling a piece of art that a troubled artist recently produced as a gift for my sister. In this painting, the artist had copied a quite lovely picture of the saint Our Lady of Guadalupe. The detail was exquisite, but a few disturbing changes were made. Instead of smiling, the saint appeared to be frowning. Also, her hands, clasped in prayer in the original, now appeared to be bound with a rope! The artist's skill is so great that these could not be simple mistakes. We believed (sister and friends) that the troubled nature of the artist, and her own perceived powerlessness in terms of the subtle, lovely gilded rope, came through subconsciously in her work.

Regarding what an artist says about his work, I agree with Elevensies:

from Elevensies
[EW] is just saying what sorts of thoughts help him guide his performance the way he and his director want it to go, not necessarily what the audience should be thinking when they see it.
I can well imagine EW hearing PJ's directions, working them out, performing to that direction -- and bringing a whole wealth of other information about the character to the screen because of the detailed mental picture he had already created about Frodo.

Similarly, the audience will be able to read even more into the performance, because EW can't help but bring some of his own personality and flair to the performance -- which is why I think we viewers have favorite performers, because we like what they add to the production!

from Maeglian
I was *not* trying to portray a deer caught in the headlights or a frightened rabbit!!
This made me chuckle! However, it does bring up a point that frequently bothers me. I see reviews here or there where the reviewer will make such a comment -- be it deer/rabbit/other four-footed critter in headlights or the F/S slash assumption ("Just kiss and get it over with") kind of thing. Such statements really irritate me. I think the critic is trying to be clever (they have to make a living with their "wit," after all), but it annoys me no end when they include their condescending remarks in their published reviews. Yes, I agree, there are movies I've seen where the acting is truly atrocious, and it would be less than honest for a reviewer to pretend that it wasn't so. But I think the LOTR movies don't have bad actors in them, just particular portrayals of well-established characters that are up for interpretation. I don't want to hear the critic's whiney interpretation and pass it off as if it was part of the movie's vision ("the purposed domination of the author" kind of thing). Yes, I know I'm bad and wrong. This is the whole purpose of having people review the movie, so that we can agree/disagree with them. But it still irritates me. I'd like to see any of these snide snippers play such a complex role themselves. Sigh. Those who can't do ... criticize.

from Brunhild
So Bakshi might have decided to portray Sam as a purely comic character.
Tough call here. I'm not sure whether Tolkien would count this as narrative distortion, ditto your comments re Frodo. Unfortunately Tolkien can never tell us. I think one of the reasons why I personally enjoy the Harry Potter movies is because Rowling was on board to guide and approve the screenplay. Same thing with the movie "Holes." I loved Louis Sachar's book; it had a very complicated plot, but the author by also doing the screenplay was able to bring its incredible nuances to life on the screen. Well done, I thought.

from tgshaw
IMHO, anything that qualifies as art has an element that simply can't be dissected
Thank heavens for this!

With all the "chance, if chance you call it" events that led up to Elijah's casting, it's my firmly-held belief that Tolkien was working behind the scenes.
What a lovely thought.

there's some definite saliva action going on.
Yes, I also noticed this. But bodily functions are definitely a mainstay of any mass-market production. Hollywood loves saliva almost as much as it does puking and men urinating. Seriously, how many movies have you seen that feature men peeing? Once was more than enough for me, yet I must endure it again and again. Sigh. At least I can be reasonably assured that our hobbit heroes won't take a tinkle into the Cracks of Doom prior to the final confrontation. Thank heavens the production was made in New Zealand.

Edit: tg, I don't mean to belittle your original point about EW's performance. To me, consciously or not, he completely captured how overwhelmed Frodo felt at that moment. The part of the scene where he is panting on the ground during Sam's VO -- wow.

many people (including myself, I'm afraid) hoped that TTT wouldn't be quite as successful as FotR.
Ouch. Guilty as stated.

I remember watching FOTR for the first time. I was seduced by the whole mood of it, even when the story occasionally deviated from the lovely literary work I knew so well. EW's Frodo did not fit my mental image (I had always envisioned an older, rounder, and more plain-looking Fro with dark eyes). He was so young! I had quite a bit of difficulty with that -- for about 15 minutes. By the time I got to the scene where he is desperately packing for Bree, I was firmly in his corner. When we entered Lothlorien, and Frodo's eyes shift about as he hears Galadriel's disembodied voice, I was transported to the "How does he do that?!" camp. I couldn't help remarking to my (male) friend as we left the movie, "Did you see those eyes? Frodo's eyes?"
"Yeah," he said. "All the eyes. Liv Tyler's eyes. Wow."
So the "eyes" have it. (Take that, deer-in-headlights man!)

Chain of Fools ... What is it about this movie?
Perhaps the fans were finding out how to order it, so the studio hid it again, or they wouldn't be able to claim it as a loss on their financial sheets any more. Sigh. I'd really like to see it.

Hi back at you, Luthiea!

Mariole, thank you for finding that quote! Just gotta love that guy. So relaxed and positive, it speaks volumes about his character and self-confidence combined with respect for and easy acceptance of others’ views. :)

And thank you Mariole, tg, all, for some *very* fascinating and insightful posts about acting, direction and audience interpretation. :k From Mariole
I can well imagine EW hearing PJ's directions, working them out, performing to that direction -- and bringing a whole wealth of other information about the character to the screen because of the detailed mental picture he had already created about Frodo. I wonder; - in addition to the term micro-expressions could we possibly also introduce micro-impressions as a term, in order to describe the perceptiveness and openmindedness that allows for gathering all the small impressions, the varied experience, the subconscious and conscious understanding that ultimately allows for an actor to bring a whole wealth of information about a character very dissimilar to himself to the screen? It certainly seems that EJW has an uncanny ability to listen, observe, form multi-faceted impressions and make use of this later in his acting.

From the previous posts I'm wondering whether a brilliant actor's performance of a role perhaps can be likened to for instance a great work of literature or a whole motion picture: The total impression is greater than the sum of the single parts? Looking at each separate component, there may be some things that do not work or is nothing out of the ordinary, and yet the total clicks together to make a lasting and profound impression on the reader / viewer.....

"Did you see those eyes? Frodo's eyes?"
"Yeah," he said. "All the eyes. Liv Tyler's eyes. Wow." Yes, the use of close-ups focusing on faces and those beautifully oh-so-expressive *eyes* is very noticable and makes an impact...... even to the point where it's fascinating to form a research project just studying the eyes and the eye highlights! :) :o

from tg on Bakshi's Sam
Sam's depiction seems to be one of the most negative things about it, but in a way it could make sense if you didn't have time to fully develop the character. IMO I'd still find it difficult not to consider that version of Sam lack of respect for the source material, if in making a film based on a beloved piece of literature they didn't have *time* to develop one of the main characters.....

Seriously, how many movies have you seen that feature men peeing? Oh yes, LotR is far more subtle than that!
(Because I guess we all know what Frodo was up to in that corn field when Sam lost sight of him?) :D


----------

I find the topic of differences between fanfic and artistic interpretations very interesting, although still muddled in my mind. I haven’t had time yet to read the links and translation you provided, Brunhild, so I’ll go do that before I post more. Going into the topic, my main question is: If a reader of LotR gets inspired to put onto paper his alternate take on a character or scene, or a poem he was inspired to write, or wants to try fill in the perceived gaps in the story, how would that differ from someone writing a script for a film..... except that the latter has paid for the rights and obtained permission from the copyright holder?

Originally posted by mariol3b3
Unfortunately Tolkien can never tell us. I think one of the reasons why I personally enjoy the Harry Potter movies is because Rowling was on board to guide and approve the screenplay.

This caught my eye, because the main criticism that's been made about the Harry Potter films is that they are TOO close to the book, that adapting the books so faithfully to a completely different medium resulted in "flat" movies, lacking much of the the magic of their original source. Since the HP and LoTR films have been released almost simultaneously for the past two years, there have been frequent comparisons between the two; I recall one critic saying that Chris Columbus could take a lesson from Peter Jackson in how to adapt a work of written fantasy to the screen in a way that was faithful to the original, but that still allowed it to be a great film, not just a word-for-word reenactment of the book. Therefore, it may be possible that we're fortunate Tolkien did not have more than a heavenly hand upon this production! True, there may have been fewer deviations from the original source, but the final product may have been less sparkling and less accessible, even to those familiar with Tolkien's work.

I do have to agree with you, Mariol, about the validity of critics' reviews. Some critics seem more interested in displaying their own dubious wit and condescending intellect than in actually reviewing the movie, or the performances in it, while other critics seem to bring too much of their own personal prejudices into their reviews. These factors can result in reviews that are not only NOT helpful to moviegoers, but that border on the malicious. Some of you may recall that a few months ago, I posted a review of TTT from The Washington Post that was such a nasty attack on Elijah Wood, especially on his looks, that one can't help wondering what sort of personality quirk in the critic's own mind would cause such an inappropriate reaction.

And yes, thank you for finding that often-referred-to quote of Elijah's! I found it interesting that when people remember that quote, they think that Elijah said and that he absolutely did not wish for his performance to be interpreted as if Frodo and Sam were anything but friends. Sounds like he's not only comfortable with letting his performance speak for itself, but also with allowing people to interpret and appreciate the story as they wish. What an utterly cool guy he is!

From Elda
Some of you may recall that a few months ago, I posted a review of TTT from The Washington Post that was such a nasty attack on Elijah Wood, especially on his looks, that one can't help but wondering what sort of personality quirk in the critic's own mind would cause such an inappropriate reaction. Envy, Elda! Pure mean envy! What else could it *possibly* be? :confused: :(

And yes, I very well remember that you posted it, yet I seem to firmly have repressed the details of the actual content. In direct opposition to my recollection of the content in LotR the book and LotR the movie.... which are as worthy of note :) as meanspirited biased reviews are forgettable! :mad:

Maeglian--Copyright issues aside, there may be no universal answer to your question about the difference between fanfic and adaptations to other media, imitations, illustrations, etc. In any case, however, the "affectionately plagiarising" person should have an acute sense of responsibility for any possible harm that the availability of the "derived" piece may do to the original artist and to the public appreciation of the original work.

I wouldn't say that the EJW quote posted by Mariol (or a similar news snippet at imdb.com) gives his blessing to the posting of F/S slash on the Internet. He just said that every viewer is entitled to his/her own interpretation of the relationship. This cool observation is somewhat obvious, isn't it? ;) :p.

Fanfiction may be an impertinent activity, but nobody profits from it commercially. Unlike a film director who adapts an author's story for the screen! :cool:

What annoys me far more than character-centred slash are the fans who speculate about EJW's sexuality ... it's absolutely none of their business.

Seems to me that some of the negative reviewers aren't used to looking for subtlety in acting, so if the actor doesn't act broadly they don't think he's doing much. I've heard this attitude more from "amateur" viewers, though--people who are more used to action movies than to drama.

------------

Speaking of action movies :p : I continue to count the blessings I've had from not going to/watching a lot of movies:

Since I've never seen the Matrix, I don't see Agent Smith in Rivendell (or Priscilla, for that matter).

I'm woefully unaware that bodily fluids are commonly used in movies so I can just admire the subtle use in TTT.

How many movies have I seen that involve men peeing? Uh, none... (That I can remember) Hmmm... maybe one scene in The Faculty when Casey's in the bathroom nursing a bloody nose and someone else comes in... can't remember for sure :confused:

And having never seen Pulp Fiction--and planning to continue to avoid it--I don't see Chain of Fools as an imitation of it.

It's not that I don't see any movies other than Elijah's, but they're few and long between, and somehow don't seem to include those elements... After FotR came out, I joked with a couple of friends that since I'd discovered where the movie theater was maybe I'd go watch some other films, but it hasn't happened. Maybe after there's no more LotR in the theaters :( (or when ESOTSM comes out--whichever is first :) ).

---------

I checked Borges' Collected Fictions out of the library during lunch break, and I'm pretty sure that's the translation I'd read of the "Pierre Menard" piece, but I don't think I'd read it in that collection because there are a lot of stories there that are completely new to me. The translation was copyrighted in 1998, so I don't know if it's the same version as that being sold at amazon.com. I also checked out Borges on Writing, which is made up of various interviews he'd given on the subject. Flipping through that, I did see some things reminiscent of JRRT: stating that he writes "fiction not fables" and doesn't tie his fiction to what's happening in the world politically, for example. (And he can be very blunt with the interviewer, an attitude Tolkien could take when it was warranted. :p )

I had written more comments and comparisons regarding some of Borges' fiction, but it was getting too off-topic to post--some of the comparisons weren't even to Tolkien, to make it further astray :rolleyes: . But I just want to give a quote from the preface to the first edition of Collected Fictions, written by Borges in 1935. It sounds so much like JRRT's attitude about writing and--especially--about the relationship between author and reader:
With regard to the examples of magic that close the book, the only right I can claim to them is that of translator and reader. I sometimes think that good readers are poets as singular, and as awesome, as great authors themselves.
Certainly one of the "fathers" of fantasy literature, which is including more and more magical realism these days (Yay!--IMHO :) ).

:o And until I scrolled back to some recent posts after writing all this, I'd forgotten that the mention of Borges had been in relation to fanfic :rolleyes: . I guess the "Pierre Menard" story makes me think more of "homages" than actual "fanfic"--the epitome being the remake of Psycho a few years ago that used every word, every camera angle of the original. With the question being, "What's the point?" [BTW, was one of the LotR actors in that remake? Seems to me I vaguely remember hearing something about that.]

Originally posted by tgshaw
[BTW, was one of the LotR actors in that remake? Seems to me I vaguely remember hearing something about that.]
Viggo was. I didn't watch it during my preparatory watching-the-cast-in-other-movies phase, though. It had really bad reviews.

Speaking of bad reviews, a lot of Elijah's pre-LotR roles were in pretty bad movies... bad enough that Elijah's acting is the main reason to watch them... and I'm embarrassed to rent most of them. (I'll except The Ice Storm from the list -- though it's still my least favorite of the Ang Lee films I've seen -- and maybe The War, though I can't stand Costner and the movie's message is rather heavy-handed.) So, Brunhild, how did you become a fan of Elijah's acting, since you've said you're not a fan of LotR?

Mel

originally posted by Elevensies
I think most actors can't necessarily precisely put into words what they're thinking or feeling at a given moment in a performance. This ties into the whole "method" discussion. Aren't Method actors famous for strutting around and whining "Who am I here? What's my motivation?" I would think that most Method actors can verbilize exactly what they were thinking at the time, especially since their acting was based on somebody's words, such the director's direction. The Huck Finn commentary as reported by tgshaw leads me to believe that Courtney B. Vance is such an actor. I doubt he was a whiner, but he certainly did pester the director about his motivation and what he was supposed to be feeling.

And then there are actors who just do it, and can't quite explain how or why, or at least they are not thinking about it at the time. It reminds me of athletes who make a game-saving basket or score a touchdown or execute a triple axel jump. The sports reporter hounds the athlete with that awful question "What was going through your mind at the time?" and the athlete never seems to be able to give a clear answer. There are two real answers to the question. The first is "secondary instinct," where your brain thinks and reacts faster than you can put words on the thoughts themselves, subcouciously. (In fact it's been referred to as "thinking without thinking.") In sports you can obtain secondary instinct through oodles of practice, working out situations ahead of time, so your brain can call it up during a game without wroking it out. However, this does not explain all those improvised moves that make sports headlines. The other answer to the question is, as far as I can tell, "talent." Someone with talent is born with an understanding of the game that they don't teach you in practice. Secondary instict is halfway there already, and the rest of the instinct is quickly learned. This applies to almost any field, and acting is no exception. Good actors, especially those who melt into their roles, are probably the same way. They can't quite explain it, but they don't have to. They just leave it to people like us. :D

So anyway, this is just a long-winded way of saying Elijah Wood is "talented." (duh) He was born with most of his secondary instinct, and somehow his personality allows him to act without putting words on his acting, i.e., to think without thinking. This must be true since he was acting when he was very young, and with no formal training. I wonder if those "what was going through you mind" questions would annoy him like it does those athletes (and the viewer!). Elijah himself is probably a charter member of the "How do I do that?" club and it must tire him out to continually and unnecessarily translate his subconcious.

There are a few movie critics who understand subtlety. At least one reviewer (too lazy to find the link) praised Billy Bob Thornton :o for "saying volumes without doing much at all" in Monster's Ball. I'll have to hunt the review down to see what he said about FotR and TTT.
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A quickie to tgshaw: I think you would enjoy the Matrix. There are religious overtones, which, although slightly overbearing, are well fit into the modern story. You needn't fear about the Elrond/Agent connection. Hugo Weaving really does manage to melt into both Agent and Elrond roles so well that it's relatively easy to distinguish between the two of them. Hugo Weaving has this wonderful "Agent" accent which I won't even try to describe except to say that the other two actors can't even begin to duplicate it. And the costumes are just damn cool. :cool:

from Maeglian
could we possibly also introduce micro-impressions as a term, in order to describe the perceptiveness and openmindedness that allows for gathering all the small impressions, the varied experience, the subconscious and conscious understanding that ultimately allows for an actor to bring a whole wealth of information about a character very dissimilar to himself to the screen?
Neat idea. :)

Looking at each separate component, there may be some things that do not work or is nothing out of the ordinary, and yet the total clicks together to make a lasting and profound impression on the reader / viewer.....
I think that is true of many things that move us deeply. We struggle to articulate what we felt, and it comes out as a pathetic, "Yeah, but the way he put his hand on the other guy's shoulder was ..." Hence the phrase, "I guess you had to be there" -- we simply can't convey in speech or writing the enormous profundity of a moving experience.

we all know what Frodo was up to in that corn field when Sam lost sight of him
Scouting, Maeg! :p Oh well, whatever he was doing, at least he was doing it offscreen...

from Eldalieva
the main criticism that's been made about the Harry Potter films is that they are TOO close to the book, that adapting the books so faithfully to a completely different medium resulted in "flat" movies
Well, I guess that people have different tastes. Personally I enjoyed the films, and I envy Rowling being able to see her vision come so accurately to life. I loved "Sense and Sensibility," and IMO Emma Thompson was fully deserving of her Best Adapted Screenplay award. She did take some liberties with Edward, but I thought overall the film was certainly true to the spirit of the book. I was much happier with LOTR than TTT for this same reason.

I posted a review of TTT from The Washington Post that was such a nasty attack on Elijah Wood, especially on his looks, that one can't help wondering what sort of personality quirk in the critic's own mind would cause such an inappropriate reaction.
:eek: I'm glad I missed this! Otherwise I'd be off on my high horse and you wouldn't see me for a couple of months until I had righted this monstrous wrong.

I'm afraid I see critical reviews as so obviously self serving that I try to avoid them altogether. I try to get the "buzz" as to whether a movie is good or bad, but it's rare that I will actually read a review until after I've viewed the movie. Then I try to see which reviewers match my tastes. Even so, it's hard to pick a good one. Wasn't it Ebert who predicted that Chicago would die an early death, and it went on to win Best Picture? These are our experts! Unfortunately, they often do sway public opinion, particularly if the picture or actor is an underdog, and that's why I'm so cross with them. :mad:

What an utterly cool guy he is!
No arguments. :cool:

from Brunhild
In any case, however, the "affectionately plagiarising" person should have an acute sense of responsibility for any possible harm (professional or personal) that can be done to the original artist by the public distribution of the "derived" work.
I'd like to follow this up on the fanfiction thread -- I'm still planning to respond there one of these days!

I wouldn't say that the EJW quote posted by Mariol ... gives his blessing to the posting of F/S slash on the Internet. He just said that every viewer is entitled to his/her own interpretation of the relationship.
Yes, he's certainly in keeping with Tolkien's preferences regarding freedom of interpretation! :p I think his gleeful response to the characters being embraced by the gay community was a mature way of turning a possibly malicious attack on its head, by being flattered at the additional audience he was including.

there is a chance that the massive public circulation of Frodo-slash can harm the appreciation of EJW's work.
I do agree that an adverse effect is possible, given many people's prejudices (thinking Chad Allen here). However, I've never heard any interviews discuss fanfiction or slash. Is it possible that just a tiny portion of the public is aware of it? It seems that if it was widely circulated, one of these journalists would eventually ask about it. We are all fans here, and yet only some of us read fanfic. Is it likely that the public at large is in blissful ignorance?

a director/producer might think: "OK, the guy says he played Frodo as straight but the Internet is swarming with people thinking that Frodo's gay. Isn't he an unconvincing actor then?
I think the movie business has enough of a track record with Elijah that this wouldn't happen. I get the impression that he has a reputation of being a hard worker and easy to get along with. I would think that the buzz about him in professional circles would be positive. And there are tons of people who always fantasize that everyone is gay (Kirk/Spock, etc etc).

BTW Pearl, stongly agreeing with you re RPS. To me such speculations do cross the line. There are enough people who believe everything they read (or who have difficulty in separating their fantasies from reality) without feeding them blatantly made-up incidents about real people using real names!

from tgshaw
I'm woefully unaware that bodily fluids are commonly used in movies
Oh, you lucky thing! Never, never see "Dead Ringers." Our local movie critic gave this film four stars. My guess is he awarded one star for each of the disgusting body functions portrayed in living sound and color on the screen. Yuck! Yes, I also plan never to see "Pulp Fiction." I'm also avoiding "Fargo" as probably beyond my yuck tolerance, despite the positive buzz about it.

I think it's OK to repost the Frodo-related bit from the TTT review by Stephen Hunter from The Washington Post:

Of course, one can still track certain irritations. Elijah Wood, as the game little hero Hobbit, Frodo Baggins, still relies entirely too much on a single expression: It's that stricken look, as if he's just learned that not only didn't he get into Harvard but he has been banned from ever setting foot in Massachusetts. It's really not acting, it's face-making. Here's how you do it: First, sky-blue contacts. Then, in front of a mirror, make your mouth an open square. Flare your nostrils. Wrinkle that brow. Really, really, squish it up good. Open your eyes to about f/1. Tighten your throat. Suck in your cheeks. There, you are now indistinguishable from the bearer of the One True Ring.

This "criticism" is slightly :D unfair and irritating :D. However, foolish mockery not withstanding, there is a point here :eek:. The "Massachusetts Outcast" expression does feature in TTT (when Frodo threatens Gollum and Sam with Sting). And it is indeed true that EJW is not entirely at home with outbursts of intense fury. He does not really portray it badly but, IMVHO, some work remains to be done before he'll be ready to tackle The Raging Bull ;).
Posted by erendis
I wonder if those "what was going through you mind" questions would annoy him [EJW]...
Like the well-known story about a long-bearded guy who couldn't sleep anymore after someone asked him whether he puts the beard over the blanket or under it :p.

If being banned from ever setting foot in Massachusetts makes a guy look like Elijah Wood as Frodo Baggins, could someone *please* start a campaign in order to have all men except Stephen Hunter banned from Massachusetts? :o :D


In order to balance Mr. Hunter's IMO rather mean-spirited and exaggerated and therefore unfair review, I did a Google search for Elijah+Frodo+film+review. The 3 first hits (no picking and choosing from me!) had the following to say about Wood's performance specifically (all relate to FotR reviews, but that shouldn't matter):

Jim Lane, newsreview.comWood and Mortensen especially--given the arcs of their characters over the trilogy, and if they keep on as they have begun--may be working on two of the greatest performances ever put on film. Elijah Wood was a gifted child actor only a few years ago, but he hasn’t outgrown his talent. In fact, he has a real star quality here that he’s only suggested before; with all the magic and special effects (and all the first-rate actors crowding the set around him), The Fellowship of the Ring is still a movie about him--the reluctant hero chosen for a task he cannot shirk. Common Guy's Film reviews:To cast this monumental epic undertaking, Jackson turned to Elijah Wood for the role of Frodo Baggins, and this decision is a homerun. Wood brings to life the small Hobbit that is Frodo along with all of his frailties. When Frodo displays fear, Wood embodies that fear. When Frodo experiences wondrous things, Wood stands in awe like no other young actor has. Wood’s success as Frodo helps keep this film together as without a successful portrayal of Frodo, the film would be left at the starting gate.The Media Drome / Scott Alan:As far as the cast is concerned, Jackson couldn't have picked a better Fellowship. Elijah Wood is so perfectly cast as Frodo, you would think that he rehearsed his whole life just to make this movie.I don't think my search criteria made for bias in the results; - most film reviews must have mentioned the names Frodo and Elijah. Or at any rate the search wasn't for positive reviews. Although Washington Post will be read by more people than the above, other reviewer's opinions shouldn't carry less weight in this connection. One person's opinion is just one person's opinion.


Oh, yes; - the Ithilien scene of light shining through, and "I love him, whether or no"...... I'm HOPING that will be in the TTT SE DVD! The herbs and rabbit scene in the film starts with Frodo sleeping, bathed in soft light. Now if that scene is extended to start one minute earlier in the narrative, Sam's looking at Frodo and his murmured words of love *could* be included and start the scene. Swoon! And that *should* be included! It's simply beautiful, whether or no! :)
I have been wondering whether they specifically excluded that in the theatrical release due to fear of slash interpretations :( or if it was never filmed at all.


(I'm still chewing on the fanfiction issue, and coming up with more and more to say..... but I'm also increasingly thinking that should be a topic for the KD fanfiction thread.)

Maeglian, I duplicated your search just for fun. It was so nice to see these positive reviews! I also noticed a couple of TTT reviews in the top few. They commented on Mortensen's acting (as he appears to be the main hero of TTT) and Gollum, and largely ignored EW (except for one oblique comment from SFStation: "Frodo's starting to act like a smack addict.")

SFStation, By Anhoni Patel
One could also argue that there's a subtle homosexual love triangle between Aragorn, Gimli and Legolas but that's a different review altogether.

Plugged In:
The films may lack the richness of Tolkien’s novels, but they are vivid attempts at faithfully retelling his deeply moral story with its Christian worldview intact.
There it is again! The reviewers going overboard in pushing their interpretations (IMVHO). I think I'm too sensitive. I get very impatient with reviewers.

For instance, here is another "positive" FOTR review from farther down the page:

The Zone, review by Patrick Hudson
The standout performance is that of Elijah Wood as Frodo, whose girly-boy features and huge, anime eyes are precisely as Tolkien described, again assisted by excellent effects-work and unobtrusive hairy feet. His sensitive portrayal evokes the doubts and fear that beset Frodo on his journey, and combines the mix of inner strength and outer weakness the role requires.
Oh, yes. I remember this description well. It's right on p. 249, after Pippin makes a crack about how much thinner Frodo has become during their trek with Strider. Yes, that roly-poly Elijah Wood, exactly as Tolkien described.

Originally posted by Maeglian
(I'm still chewing on the fanfiction issue, and coming up with more and more to say..... but I'm also increasingly thinking that should be a topic for the KD fanfiction thread.)
And you would be correct. Anyone who wants to discuss fanfic should do so in the appropriate thread. :)

A timely reminder! ;) I had to go and post a lengthy rant at the Fanfiction thread :eek:. Since I don't want to do it ever again, I swear to Mod ;) to stay off the accursed topic in the future :verysolemngrin:

Did anyone see this snippet from ComingSoon.net's interview with Hugo Weaving in connection with the Matrix Reloaded premiere: Weaving will return for reshoots on The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King. "Originally the reshoots were a couple of weeks and now I hear they're about nine weeks. So, yeah, I guess if you're making a lot of money, you can afford to take the time and make exactly the film you want and go back and resculpt and change and reshape and reshoot."
For some reason I'm more worried than happy about those 9 weeks of reshoots. Given that TTT has grossed significantly more than FotR, could this mean that RotK will be altered to include more "invented" or altered scenes a la "kissy Arwen", stealing time away from the originally filmed scenes that are more in line with the spirit of FotR? :eek: To keep this on topic (See? Not a word about fanfiction, here! :D ), I wonder when and how long EJW's going to be in NZ for reshoots.

Originally posted by erendis
I doubt he was a whiner, but he certainly did pester the director about his motivation and what he was supposed to be feeling.
I didn't get the feeling that Courtney Vance did it more than most actors, or did it so much that it annoyed the director--he was probably quite "normal." What the director was trying to emphasize in the commentary was Elijah's total lack of need for that kind of direction--which the director didn't seem to think was normal at all :) .

really[/i] ambiguous endings. Chain of Fools if you like dark, surreal comedy--and if you can find it :rolleyes: . And Forever Young if you're just looking for a bit of well-done, non-serious fun.]

[b]The sports reporter hounds the athlete with that awful question "What was going through your mind at the time?" and the athlete never seems to be able to give a clear answer. There are two real answers to the question. The first is "secondary instinct," where your brain thinks and reacts faster than you can put words on the thoughts themselves, subcouciously... In sports you can obtain secondary instinct through oodles of practice, working out situations ahead of time, so your brain can call it up during a game without wroking it out. However, this does not explain all those improvised moves that make sports headlines. The other answer to the question is, as far as I can tell, "talent." Someone with talent is born with an understanding of the game that they don't teach you in practice. Secondary instict is halfway there already, and the rest of the instinct is quickly learned.
The description of secondary instinct reminds me of what Elijah said about "muscle memory" when talking about Gollum. He said he and Sean would first rehearse a scene with Andy physically playing Gollum. Then, when they had to do the "real thing" without him there, they were so used to what they had to do--in order to leave the right amount of space, etc.--that it was quite easy. Quite easy for them, maybe :p . I don't think I'd be able to do it!

And the idea of talent feeds back into my reflection on acting as an art: just as in writing or painting or composing music, you have to start with an underlying ability (some of us start with more than others!). Then an artist who wants to learn and grow will go on from there. A painter who, say, has an innate understanding of color, might spend time perfecting his brush stroke--while those without that gift are still trying to learn to see what he sees naturally. So, if he keeps honing his skill, he'll always have that advantage. I don't think it'll bring much argument in this thread if I say that Elijah has a natural ability to express to the audience the emotions of the character he's playing, without consciously working it out (thinking without thinking?). So while other actors are hashing out their motivation, etc., Elijah can be concentrating on the things he does have to work at--maybe practicing his accent, or another of the gazillion skills that must go into acting. Since he is someone who wants to learn and grow, that natural gift will always give him an advantage over actors who don't have it.

They can't quite explain it, but they don't have to. They just leave it to people like us. :D
:D :D

A quickie to tgshaw: I think you would enjoy the Matrix...
Ah, how one thing can lead to another... :) Last week I picked up the GQ with Keanu Reeves on the cover to see if somewhere in the article it'd say something about Thumbsucker--which it didn't. (This was before that recent interview with Elijah had been posted, saying for sure that he wasn't going to be in it.)

As I read the article, I found myself being impressed with KR as a person... whatever opinions there may be of his acting. He's another actor who stays away from the Hollywood "scene" as much as possible, and he gave the impression of being a thoughtful person and not too filled with himself. Different from Elijah in that he's had some very real tragedies in his life and is quite a risk taker. But the statement that struck me the most was when he said one reason he finds his Matrix role satisfying is that he feels compassion for the character he plays, who's had so much responsibility laid on him :cool: . I may have to see these movies... sometime...

And I figure I've probably seen enough of Elrond now that I'd be more likely to see Elrond in Agent Smith than the other way around :p . (And, erendis, I'm glad to know that not everyone felt like they were seeing Agent Smith in Rivendell--so many people said it was one of their biggest gripes with FotR.)

Edit: Maeg, did you get the idea that the entire length of time for RotK reshoots would be nine weeks--or that Weaving himself would be there for that long? The first wouldn't necessarily concern me... But trying to imagine why they'd need Elrond there for nine weeks :eek: :( ! [Now, if anyone gets any news on how long Liv Tyler's going to be there... :rolleyes: ]

Regarding reshoots, I remember reading in one of the gazillion articles I read about the making of LOTR, back when FOTR came out, that they really rushed the last part of principle photography as their production timetable came to an end in order to adhere to their schedule. This meant that many scenes were filmed without any direct PJ supervision, and he reportedly was disappointed with the result (in some cases with the way the scene was shot, in others with the acting). No details on which scenes or actors he felt were substandard, only the reporter's notion that it was ROTK material (I'm sorry, I'm Googling and can't find that particular article).

I wouldn't worry (translate that to mean, "I'm trying my best not to worry") about them necessarily rewriting huge chunks of the story at this point, unless it's to bring the story more closely to Tolkien. I believe that PJ has his vision, but I also have the impression that he listens to the fans. I think that's why we were spared a warrior Arwen. I hope all this Treebeard/Faramir/Osgilliath furor that erupted all over fandom maybe led him to try to bring those story lines closer to Tolkien.

This is wishful thinking on my part backed up by no actual facts. I'm very glad that PJ didn't do any Oscar campaigning this time around so that he could devote the whole year toward making ROTK even better. He delighted me with FOTR. I hope he does so again with ROTK.

Nine weeks of reshoots? Wow! I want to go to New Zealand! They are looking for blonde extras. Especially older blondes and well I'm old and ..currently blonde.

But really this seems to mean to me that PJ knows what he wants and is going to get it no matter what . Which he has said several times in interviews.

Of course this means...WE HOPE!!!!!

NO MORE EXTRA ARWEN!!!!!

What we do want is the best of all of Frodo's and Sam's scenes. And then the best post quest and Grey Haven's possible.

And now that Elijah is older and has gained more life experience and poise he can bring a lot of that to 'end of LOTR Frodo' who has, of course, been through a lot by this time,too.

Can't wait for December!!!!

Just dropped in to say that I got another email from the site visitor about CofF. After she ordered it directly from Hong Kong, she did find it at yesasia.com, but not until she searched only Western products. So, false alarm on it being gone from there :o .

It's interesting, though. When I ordered it, it was listed only under Asian products. In fact, I missed it on my first go-round because I was looking under Western, since it originated here. Seems like they've moved it. Maybe more "Westerners" than Asians are buying it now? (Of course, for us it's a "new" movie.) When I first went looking for info on CofF many months ago, the first place I found anything was on a Salma Hayek fan site, so I'd imagine that bunch has been buying it, too.

I'll add a "me, too" for all the hopes and fears expressed about the reshooting. :) :( I'm hoping that even the bottom-liners at NewLine can see that this is their chance to make a truly great movie that will stand the test of time--PJ's certainly taking it seriously, so if they'll just let him do his stuff... (But PJ isn't totally anti-extra-Arwen: he seemed very happy about giving her the scene at the ford.)

Just thinking about actually seeing RotK, I'm wondering if I can bribe the other Tolkien fan in the office to go to the midnight showing with me. I got through the other two on my own, but may need some moral support this time around! ----- I asked this co-worker to go with me the first two times, but she doesn't like to go at midnight :rolleyes: . She is (a bit) older than me, but she doesn't even work on Wednesdays, FGS! Maybe if I start working on her now... :p

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P.S. 120 pages and only 3 posts away from 3000!!! :cool: {{{Faculty}}} :k

Since the milestone will probably be past by the time I get back here, I've left a Secret Sam Smile avatar to mark the occasion--along with the following little bit of Paradise ;) for those who haven't seen it. Note slightly-pointed hobbit ears already visible :p .

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Previous movies/paradise02.jpg

tg, thanks for the cute picture of EW from Paradise. I haven't seen that one for one (er... two) simple reason: Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson. Can I call myself a full-fledged Faculty Member with such a big gap in my research?

As for reshoots: are they going on right now? After reading the interview that BunnieBugs posted, I expect the entire cast doesn't mind the extension of the time commitment for the reshoots. Mustn't worry needlessly about too much time to insert unnecessary Arwen footage. (Unless they devote 30 minutes of screen time to the wedding! :eek: ) Elrond goes to the Grey Havens, so there is a reason for lots of footage with Hugo Weaving.

Just had a thought: do you think MTV will visit the set again for its Movie Awards! :cool:

Originally posted by peaceweaver
tg, thanks for the cute picture of EW from Paradise. I haven't seen that one for one (er... two) simple reason: Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson. Can I call myself a full-fledged Faculty Member with such a big gap in my research?
Those are two of the reasons I've got Paradise ranked as 20th of 21 movies (and I'm sure no one has to think too hard to figure out what the 21st is :p ). The third reason is the directing, which doesn't help much. The fourth is what I thought was a much too predictable story.

Paradise also shares the honor--with Black and White--of being one of the two EJW movies I can buy but haven't. That's partly because during the time I was collecting the other movies I watched Paradise on TV twice and felt that was enough (I rented B&W). The collector in me keeps nudging the practical person in me to go ahead and buy the last two for the sake of having a complete set (except for Day-O :( : that guy who reviewed it on IMDb never returned my email, so still no scent to follow on that one). As far as I know, Paradise is only available on VHS.

peaceweaver, I'd certainly call you a full-fledged Faculty member--you're the one who introduced us to micro-expressions, after all! If all research was completed, what would we do :confused: ? But IMHO, Paradise is worth watching once just to see cute little Lij and Thora Birch, who are much more interesting than the main adult characters!

Just had a thought: do you think MTV will visit the set again for its Movie Awards! :cool:
Dunno... How did TTT come out as far as nominations? The more nominations, the more likely they'd be to return, I'd think. It would kind of surprise me (a nice surprise :) ) if they did, just because the novelty's worn off. And if there's one thing MTV likes, it's something new!

Okay--Now who's going to post next and push us over 3000? :cool:

3000 posts again! :) Congratulations, Faculty!
This would be a nice time to hear from those who haven't posted here much lately, if you are still out there and looking in from time to time. :)

Can I call myself a full-fledged Faculty Member with such a big gap in my research? I hope so! (I haven't seen "Paradise" either, it's not available here. Not that I've been desperately searching for it, exactly.)

From Tg
Maeg, did you get the idea that the entire length of time for RotK reshoots would be nine weeks--or that Weaving himself would be there for that long? The first wouldn't necessarily concern me... But trying to imagine why they'd need Elrond there for nine weeks :eek: Yes, perhaps they may have realized that having introduced the Arwen / Elrond relationship so forcefully in TTT, they feel the need to explore it further. There are contrasts and comparisons to for instance Agamemnon / Iphigenia mythology that clearly needs further examination. And after all, this particular troubled LotR father / child relationship is now firmly embedded in moviegoers' minds, so should receive due care and focus in RotK. While other family relationship matters in the books may yet be reduced without the film suffering. The additional Elrond / Arwen / Aragorn-scenes will unfortunately mean that another father / son / love interest portrayal may have to go or be downplayed (Denethor, Faramir and Eowyn). But after all, Denethor has not even been introduced in person yet, so moviegoers won't miss him and the rest of his family much.....

(Maeglian sees a big horde of angry fans with hatchets coming her way, Erendis in front..... :eek: )

I'm sorry! Bad joke! Trout accepted in advance! :o
Nope, this was merely the worst of the worst case scenario. I'm quite certain it's the total reshoots that will require 9 weeks, and there's no reason Hugo Weaving will be there for that length of time.


Mariole, I rather liked that Zone review. Frolijah does not exactly look as Tolkien described him, but nevertheless it's high praise to EJW if reviewers think he captures the role of Frodo to such perfection, that they cannot think but Frodo *must* have been described by Tolkien exactly like EJW portrays him. :)

And congratulations on your new avatar! :)

Originally posted by Maeg
3000 posts again! Congratulations, Faculty! This would be a nice time to hear from those who haven't posted here much lately, if you are still out there and looking in from time to time.
Luth shows her face :o :D

3000 POSTS!!!! YEE-HAAAA!!!!

Originally posted by Peaceweaver
Can I call myself a full-fledged Faculty Member with such a big gap in my research?
Haha the first time I read that (skimming fast down the page) I could have sworn it said 'Can I call myself a full-fledged Faculty Member with such a big gap in my teeth?!!! :D

Hugs to everyone! :k

(((Luth)))) Nice to see you! :)

New pictures alert!!!

Get yourselves over to the official film site! New pictures from RotK!!!! At last!!

2 new Frodo ones (both Shelob's lair close-ups), one is simply gorgeous and the other is simply angsty! :cool: And one feisty-Sam-with-shining- phial one... and Faramir, and Pippin, and Merry... none of them looking like comic relief.... and 7 (yes, seven!!) pics featuring Aragorn! Well, I don't mind that, really, and the film is called return of the King, but hey.... I want equal focus on Frodo!! After we've studied the 2 new pics of him! :D

And someone has photographed a TV screen showing RotK footage or something from some game promo (?); - go to AICN, TorN, or Herr der Ringe to check them out! Poor quality, but who cares!!!
A really dark scary-looking Frodo pic; - Shelob's lair? Oh, those dark circes under the eyes in that scared & weary & determined & distrustful face!! :(

And a really nice new Faramir pic! Woo-hoo! It's about time!

Sweet Eru, those pictures of Frodo are stunning!! (They are posted over at the Harem, so those of us who can't navigate the Official Sites absurd Flashing format can see them.) Be careful visiting the Harem if you are trying not to be "spoiled!"

I plan to "study" them more closely later. ;)

Oh and in other news, TTT *is* up for several awards in the MTV Movie Awards, including Frodo/Sam/Gollum as Best Team: so get over there and vote (link from ToRN) so the MTV folks have to go to New Zealand and bring us more footage and silliness from the set! :)

3000 posts!!! WOOHOO!!
And new ROTK pictures! what a great day!! http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilies/woohoo.gif

Here's a list of today's goodies for your convenience. ;)
(I'm posting links instead of images just in case people are trying to avoid spoilers.)


******ROTK SPOILERS********




Pictures from official site:
http://lordoftherings.net/index_features_rotk.html


Pictures from the E3 video game promo:
http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/790?sg=1&q=&tn=24&ts=0
OR
http://www.herr-der-ringe-movie.de/news-details360.htm


Part of the E3 video game promo clip:
http://img-nex.theonering.net/movies/051603_rotk.mpg
It's 15sec long and 1.36MB. The only Frodo and Sam parts are shots of them walking and Sam looking back suspiciously.



******ROTK SPOILERS END********



Have a nice weekend everyone!!

Tearing myself away from deluby's avatar to say:

:cool: HAPPY 3000th POST, FACULTY! :cool:

And thanks for the links to the pics :k

Ooops, my bad! The voting period for the MTV Movie Awards is over :o

Sorry, I didn't read the fine print!

But TTT was nominated in several categories. So we can hope for some coverage of the film during their festivities, can't we? :cool: