Originally posted by naiad
Then, on that same occasion, E and S answered the hero question in just the way F and S would have. Very sweet. At first, I was taken aback that Elijah didn't recognize Frodo as The Hero but it's appropriate that he did not because it shows how much he identifies with Frodo.

Yes, exactly the right way for them to answer :) . IMHO the reason Sam sometimes comes across as "the" hero in the book is that Frodo wrote it that way! If Sam had written more of the Red Book than he did, I do believe we would have more about Frodo and less about Sam. They're just that way, bless their souls--and Elijah's and Sean's, too :) .

Going back to another old topic--I'm literally plowing through stuff trying to clean the apartment, and before I put this Realms of Fantasy into storage I want to add another piece from the article where Elijah was quoted. (Interesting that the article covers 9 movies that are coming out over the next few months, but out of all of them Elijah's is the only interview.)

And, don't worry, this is all completely non-spoilerish to anyone who's seen the first two movies. It's a continuous quote leading up to the interview, but I just had to add some comments :o :
The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King (New Line Cinema) opens December 17. It's been two years since J.R.R. Tolkien fans expressed their outrage over the casting of Elijah Wood as Frodo, and everyone was on tenterhooks, wondering if the gamble made by New Line Cinema and Peter Jackson and company would be one of the greatest failures in movie history.
1. Hey, that's some J.R.R. Tolkien fans, please :mad: ! (Although I'll admit to being a bit nervous--after all, for months I'd been telling "outraged" fans how great Elijah would be in the role!)

2. "Tenterhooks," definitely. The positive reviews were wonderful to read (IIRC, some media outlet calculated that FotR received the highest percentage of positive reviews of any movie ever). But it wasn't until after that first "blockbuster" weekend that there was a collective sigh of relief, knowing that everything already done for the other two movies wouldn't just be left in a backroom somewhere--and that New Line wouldn't go broke (which they would have, if LotR had flopped, because they'd invested so much in it) before they could be released.

In this final chapter of Tolkien's trilogy, Aragorn battles the enemy as he struggles to rise to his rightful place on the throne. At the same time, Frodo battles himself as he tries to finish his quest and fulfill his destiny as the Ringbearer. One of the greatest themes in Tolkien's masterpiece is the concept that good and evil aren't always outside forces in the world, but are forces that each of us must face within ourselves.
There's a statement in Tom Shippey's Author of the Century (I can't remember if it's actually from Shippey or if he's quoting someone else) that, in Tolkien's work, "The line between good and evil runs through the human heart." I thought that was a marvelous statement, and so true to Tolkien--both in his fiction and elsewhere. Just last night I was reading the letter where he says that even Sauron wasn't completely evil. And, of course, his good guys aren't perfect! IMVHO, absolutely vital to their reality.

Which brings us full circle to the choice of casting Elijah Wood as Frodo. Anyone familiar with Wood's work is well aware of his wide emotional range.
No comment needed :p .

BTW, the article says there will be more on RotK in the next issue. Since RoF has run full-length feature articles on both FotR and TTT, I expect they'll do the same for RotK.

Even more BTW, the magazine also continued its tradition of getting things wrong, especially regarding pictures. They have a shot from the scene in TTT where Legolas and Aragorn are "helping" the "elderly" Gandalf walk into Meduseld. Only trouble is, the caption reads as follows:
Legolas and Aragorn escort Gandalf to the Stables of Edora in the third LOTR film, The Return of the King.
Well, maybe we'll see exactly this same shot in RotK ;) , and they will be heading for the stables, but I kind of doubt it. (And I can't think of any way to redeem "Edora." :p )

Nice write-up in the article, though :) . RotK is the last of the 9 movies to be discussed, and I think most readers would be left with the impression that it's the one to watch for.

-------------

Lots to do--By rights, I shouldn't be here at all :) . If I'm very, very good, you won't see me for a few days. But I'm not perfect, either :p .

Tg, thank you for those interesting quotes :) ! But, oh, I forgot, you are not here at all, so my thanks makes little sense...:D

Hello, lilly t :) !

And thank you, naiad, for your "blabbing about" that wonderful E/S quote :p :) !

I finally managed it to find an angel (two angels!) of William Blake with quite a respectably resemblance to our dear Elijah. I've scanned the pics from a book and unfortunately neither the name of the drawing nor the date of origin is named.

------------------------------
originally quoted from tgshaw:
One of the greatest themes in Tolkien's masterpiece is the concept that good and evil aren't always outside forces in the world, but are forces that each of us must face within ourselves.
------------------------------

Blake's painting fits right in here - we see the battle of two angels, the good angel holds the child, the bad angel tries to snatch the little one. What an impressing image of this eternal struggle!


http://photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/blake_good_angel_bright.jpghttp://photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/blake_good_angel_dark.jpg



http://photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/blake_good_angel.jpg

What gorgeous drawings, I mean likenesses! {{{whiteling}}} for finding and posting them.

Re: "He'd probably get Sam to help him. Frodo can't do much of anything by himself."
Must annotate this, Mariole! :). Book Frodo asked Sam to help him only ONCE - and that was to physically aid him in pulling his hand back from the Ring. Any other times Sam helped Frodo were instigated by Sam and primarily in the form of personal aid and comfort. Only when Frodo fell into deathlike paralysis or captivity, did Sam venture beyond that. Book Frodo would NEVER, imo, have asked Sam or anyone else to help him win a race. He'd have simply done his best and accepted losing if that was his lot, or not raced at all! Most of Frodo's deeds - certainly all his major decisions and strategies - were his own doing, advised by the wise, perhaps, but hardly dependent on Sam. Frodo was quite capable of wondering the wilds alone, knew the pathways of and beyond the Shire better than Sam, could navigate the river, was known to be brave, could handle strangers etc. These are things Elijah would not have known unless/until he read the books.
I think EW was being overly simplistic on that occasion - probably just a knee-jerk answer to being put on the spot at an awkward moment (maybe in the middle of filming) and because, like you say, Mariole, EW seems as instinctively self-effacing as Frodo.

Tg (hope you're still visiting incognito or will be back soon) - Thanks much for:The reason Sam sometimes comes across as "the" hero in the book is that Frodo wrote it that way! If Sam had written more of the Red Book than he did, I do believe we would have more about Frodo and less about Sam. They're just that way, bless their souls--and Elijah's and Sean's, tooAND for: The line between good and evil runs through the human heart. I thought that was a marvelous statement, and so true to Tolkien--both in his fiction and elsewhere. Just last night I was reading the letter where he says that even Sauron wasn't completely evil. And, of course, his good guys aren't perfect! IMVHO, absolutely vital to their reality.Can't add to that!
:k

P.S. Does anyone know when the Extended TTT DVD is due out? I thought it was November but find nothing on the Web sites :(

Originally posted by naiad
P.S. Does anyone know when the Extended TTT DVD is due out? I thought it was November but find nothing on the Web sites :( November 18th. I'm counting the minutes.;)

Hi, Naiad. Thanks for your remarks! Yes, EW was being flip in his response about Frodo asking Sam for help. It wasn't a serious "interview," just a sound bite captured as he, Orlando, Billy, and Dom were larking for the cameras on the dock.

Whiteling, those angels! :cool: Great research!

And to quote Tg's quote that Naiad quoted, "Frodo wrote it that way!" :p Ah, I'm over my head in the subcreation, and loving every minute! :D :k

Thanks, Bunnie, for that vital information! :D

Spongebob! Doesn't anybody remember Felix the Cat?

It was a cartoon kitty that had a professor instead of a wizard as a friend.the professor had a bag of tricks, a wizard had his wand. He was also prone to odd things happening to him. Adventures. A certain Hobbit had to get rid of the Ring to Save the World (there's the adventure he wanted!). Lastly the cat had an odd voice. Elijah's voice sounds manly enough, but then it "cracks" and sounds boyish when he loses it. How funny.:D but oh how soothing! :)

wow!! couldn't have said it better myself! thanks for your unique perspective on that!

Originally posted by tgshaw
[B]Yes, exactly the right way for them to answer :) . IMHO the reason Sam sometimes comes across as "the" hero in the book is that Frodo wrote it that way! If Sam had written more of the Red Book than he did, I do believe we would have more about Frodo and less about Sam. They're just that way, bless their souls--and Elijah's and Sean's, too :) .


and this i don't understand either...having been a fan of elijah's since the days of radio flyer (! wooohoo!! one of the greatest movies *ever*! and from the director of goonies!) and forever young, i must say i was incredibly excited to hear elijah would be playing frodo- one of my favourite actors playing one of my favourite characters! hey, if my eight year old self could recognise the talent in his eleven yeard old self...well i just don't understand why it came as a shock to the world at large ! ;)

1. Hey, that's some J.R.R. Tolkien fans, please :mad: ! (Although I'll admit to being a bit nervous--after all, for months I'd been telling "outraged" fans how great Elijah would be in the role!)


and thanks for more welcomes!!


o wow double thanks! hey, i've got a section on my site devoted to photos where lij seems to take on the appearance of someone elce...would anyone care if i made a special section of that devoted to the paintings you guys have been posting? with all due links and credits of course! it's a fascinating subject!

Originally posted by whiteling
[B]

I finally managed it to find an angel (two angels!) of William Blake with quite a respectably resemblance to our dear Elijah. I've scanned the pics from a book and unfortunately neither the name of the drawing nor the date of origin is named.

------------------------------
originally quoted from tgshaw:
One of the greatest themes in Tolkien's masterpiece is the concept that good and evil aren't always outside forces in the world, but are forces that each of us must face within ourselves.
------------------------------

Blake's painting fits right in here - we see the battle of two angels, the good angel holds the child, the bad angel tries to snatch the little one. What an impressing image of this eternal struggle!

((Mariole)) ((tg)) ((whiteling)) ((Bunniebugs))

((naiad))--lovely, lovely description of book Frodo and of Elijah's conception of movie Frodo (albeit knee-jerk in this instance)

{((Tolkein))} because "Frodo wrote it that way"

((lily))--looking forward to your link.

here you go! fardreamer (http://wicked.as/fardreamer) the look-a-like section is kinda shabby now...i've been neglecting it!

argggh and i'd forgotten that for some reason a bunch of my look alikes got deleted...i'll try to fix that later today, or possibly tomorrow...there's a matt lauer photo missing, and one of lij looking like justin timberlake and one looking like dom...possibly some others as well...

Lilly, if you've already posted but want to add something else, you can edit your first post by clicking on the "edit" button on the lower right of your post. Double-posting (posting twice in a row) is not allowed. Thanks!:)

estella rose - thanks for the original Abbey Road picture!:k

Wow, away for just a couple of days and already so many fascinating posts! Never a dull moment with the Faculty :)

Wonderful closeups of those two Blake angels (((Whiteling))) Wonderful quote, Tg:
The line between good and evil runs through the human heart.
Whiteling, that Stern Frodo pic is another great example of the dichotomies that make Elijah so fascinating as an actor and a person: soft and severe features combined there, as you said. And the beautiful one of Frodo leaving Rivendell (skin crease and all;)): there he looks both ethereal and humanly uncertain. Good and evil, innocence and experience, youthfulness and maturity .. and even in real life he can be both dazzlingly beautiful and geeky, a genuine 22-year-old in behaviour and a 90-year-old (1000-year-old?) in wisdom. Fascinating, enthralling and probably unique.

Honeyelf, your Blakefrodo comparison is amazing! (((Honeyelf))) Now I think I know what Nigel Andrews meant by the "slim, symmetried (note - not asymmetried!) descent of nose and mouth". And Blake has the characteristic Elwood wrinkled brow to a T! What I found was this Angel of the Revelation:

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/William_Blake/images/21.L.jpg

in which the individual features (straight brow, large eyes etc.) are most Frodoesque, but the whole face, oddly, not at all.
The other Blake angel I found (of the Divine Presence) was a Gandalf lookalike:D:

http://www.metmuseum.org/special/William_Blake/images/14.L.jpg

And Whiteling, you're right, it's the Embassy cinema in Wellington, not the Empire (getting confused there with the UK film mag of that name). It's just a holiday, but we also plan to visit Matamata, AKA Hobbiton, and Mount Ruapehu, alias Mount Doom.
Talking of which, for most of this year I've been seeing Ed Hillary and Tenzing Norgay (of Mount Everest fame in 1953) as a kind of Frodo and Sam. It was only later that I acquired a DVD documentary about Hillary's life (50th anniversary this year of the first ascent) in which the narrator turned out to be - you guessed it - one Ian McKellen. And what was the first mountain Hillary ever set foot on? Mount Ruapehu. That throws some light on Ian's remark about Gandalf and Aragorn worrying at base camp while Frodo and Sam toil to the summit! And what did Hillary say at the unveiling of the statue of (the late) Tenzing in Darjeeling? He said "I've never regarded myself as much of a hero, but Tenzing undoubtedly was.". Remind you of anyone? The synchronicities are quite uncanny!

(((Hobmom))), thanks for the unbelievably cool Abbey Road pic! When were those pics taken??? MUCH more to say on that subject .... later ....

Honeyelf's timeless and iconic Elwood: :D :D
Mariole's hobbits in glasses: :D :D

Two other guys that look like the "David" sculpture: Steve Miller (when he was in his twenties. check out photo of "Steve Miller Band greatest hits." and John F. Kennedy Jr. (John-John).

Agree? :D

Um, probably would if I could find the pic(s) you mean, Shadowcat!

Forgot to say yesterday:
Peaceweaver, you are too kind :k . If I were a teacher I'd give a lot of the incredibly apposite essays here A+ ;)
And yes, traditional angels (i.e. not the plaster corner variety currently occupying UK shops) are all male, aren't they? Most seem to be winged warriors (e.g. former Chaldean or Phoenician gods adopted by the Christian church) and not necessarily all good. So there's the ambiguity again: very Frolijah!
Maybe Blake's poem "The Angel" (from "Songs of Innocence and of Experience") is worth a link (http://www.classicbookshelf.com/library/william_blake/songs_of_experience/10/) (don't let that angel go, Faculty!)

PS - Here's another link (http://www.ariadne.ac.uk/issue36/hunter-rvw/image1-s.jpg) to another Blake Frolijah lookalike (again from the "Songs of Experience" - sorry it's so small).

Serena, loved your Blake angel entries! "The Angel" is so sad -- loss of innocence. *sniff!* But those pics -- they all have Elwood's small, thin nose. Even the "Gandalf lookalike" has a very youthful face. Very interesting.

For an update on "Happy Feet", click here. Some info on story, director, and fellow actors. Elwood is through recording, so he's available for any other roles. Yea!

http://www.scifi.com/scifiwire/art-film.html?2003-10/28/11.00.film

Wonder-wonder-wonderful pictures - (((Serena))) Thank you for posting that gorgeous Revelation angel! I can't take my eyes off it. This beauty and power is breathtaking.
And I love your comments about EW's fascinating, enthralling and probably unique qualities. :k
As we see, Nigel Andrews was very right to compare Elijah to Blake's angels.

They say, Blake had visions of angels and spirits from childhood on and he himself stated that he was taught in painting by an angel.
If there ever will be any plans to make a movie about this astonishing painter and poet, they'll have to choose Elijah for the role of his guidance angel. That could turn out to be absolutely terrific!

And another thank you, Serena, for the link to the moving poem. Very, very touching.

Honeyelf - I forgot! - your Blakefrodo was wonderful... and it was even topped by iconic Elwood! Thanks! :k

Hi, Mariole! Many thanks for posting news on "Happy Feet" :) !

Lilly - as for me, please go on and be free to use all stuff you want for your site!

(((Faculty))) - a nice weekend to you all!

Whiteling -If there ever will be any plans to make a movie about this astonishing painter and poet, they'll have to choose Elijah for the role of his guidance angel. Wonderful thought and response to Serena's Blake postings! If only....!
Now SUCH stuff - and many of the above postings - I WISH Elijah would read.

Serena - Re:Ian's remark about Gandalf and Aragorn worrying at base camp while Frodo and Sam toil to the summit That comment of Ian's always made my blood run cold. Fascinating connections you discovered between the turn-of-the-century mountaineers, Sir Ian, and F&S portraying Tolkien's timeless pair upon that very real and treacherous peek.

Re: the dichotomies that make Elijah so fascinating as an actor and a person: soft and severe features combined ...Good and evil, innocence and experience, youthfulness and maturity .. and even in real life he can be both dazzlingly beautiful and geeky, a genuine 22-year-old in behaviour and a 90-year-old (1000-year-old?) in wisdom. Fascinating, enthralling and probably unique. Excellent description of Frolijah. Not to drag 'pop culture' into this discussion, but Led Zep lead guitarist Jimmy Page's professed attraction to light and dark, resulted in their best music, imo, (and of course in their name). The juxtaposition of such opposing forces is surely present in all high art and is one of its most compelling ingredients. Go Elijah!

To Blake's angels and the David as Elijah/Frodo predecessors, must add the marble 'Statue of Antinoos' in Delphi. I tried to find a good quality pic on the internet but turned up nada :(. All I could find were fuzzy and X-rated, being full-nude-body representations, not worth chopping up in PhotoShop. But perhaps some are familiar with this masterpiece? Antinoos, was the lover of Roman emperor Hadrien, I believe, who died as a youth, drowned in the Nile. I just saw this statue last month with Greek cousins (artists both) and pointed out the likeness to the actor playing Frodo in LOTR (which they adore :) ) and after due consideration, they heartily agreed.

And most important {{{Serena}}} for the link to 'The Angel'. As Whiteling said, 'very very touching'. And as you say "don't let that angel go" {{{Faculty}}}

:confused:

Do the Blake angels have a sort of Fish Face or Eagle/Scorpion Face? why even if they're Good do They look so Severe?

More than a little bit late, but I'll add my Welcome to the Faculty, lillyt! to the chorus too. :) :)

Originally posted by whiteling
As for the hooligan thing: I feel some difficulty imaging Elijah in such a role, for the same reasons Mariole and Maeglian already stated. Of course, he can play that, without any doubt - no, it is the topic that distraughts me. Soccer hooligans, skinheads and neo-Nazis are terrible "real" evil forces, actually existing human Saurons amongst our societies. Hopefully the plot will offer a purification process of the characters (ainon, isn't something like that the topic of "American History X" with Edward Norton?), otherwise I'm with Blossom - I'm not sure if I want to see the film.

This reply is late too :o but yeah, that was 'American History X' all right, in a nutshell. I too am hoping that this soccer hooligan story will be something in that vein.

tg - sweet EW character pics! Yep, I call that a crease in the cheek too. Thanks for the Beatles pic, estella. I needed to see that; I had no idea what Abbey Road everyone was talking about. :p

Not quite what everyone's talking about now, but it so happened that as I was catching up with y'all and reading 'bout tg's new Faculty DVD, I came across this review of The Faculty. Don't believe it's been archived here in the Faculty yet. ;)


The Faculty
1998 (1999) - Dimension (Buena Vista)

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/reviews/faculty.jpg

review by Bill Hunt, editor of The Digital Bits

Film Rating: C-

Disc Ratings (Video/Audio/Extras): B/B+/D-

Specs and Features

104 mins, R, letterboxed widescreen (1.85:1), single-sided, single-layered, Amaray keep case packaging, theatrical trailer, film-themed menu screens, scene access (31 chapters), languages: English (DD 5.1), subtitles: English, Close Captioned


It's just another day at good old Harrington High (a.k.a. the high school from Hell)... that is until a bunch of the teachers start acting a little creepy. Ah, heck -- you always knew the Coach was just one whistle blow away from cracking, didn't you? You just didn't know it was because he had a parasitic alien squid in his ear. Whodda thunk it? Well, before long, a motley band of Harrington students has correctly guessed that there's an alien invasion afoot. You've got the obligatory geek (played by Elijah Wood), the male stoner (who deals caffeine nose candy in Bic pens and full-frontal nudity on VHS for all the good young kiddies), the female anti-social type ("I'm not really a lesbian, it's just a front"), the jock (naturally, the captain of the football team), the head cheerleader (surprise), and the blonde, goodie-two-shoes new girl from way down South (surprise again -- she's the one who gets bare naked). Thems our heroes folks, and as their fellow students all slowly succumb to alien infestation, it's up to them to save the Earth. God help us all.

The Faculty is just the latest entry in the teen-chic horror genre, except this flick steals a few script pages from classic sci-fi, and throws in a little '90s hip, and doesn't manage to do much with either. This is definitely one of those cases where, despite the best intentions, and plenty of talent behind the camera, everything sort of misses the mark. I frankly expected much more from the teaming of director Robert Rodriguez (El Mariachi) and writer Kevin Williamson (Scream). Rodriguez had initially been hired by Steven Spielberg to helm The Mask of Zorro. When Rodriguez pulled out of that film, The Faculty was his rebound project -- and it shows. The Faculty is cookie cutter grade B cheese -- either this was the fastest production ever, script to screen, or everyone just phoned their part in. I like horror. I especially like sci-fi. And I really wanted to believe all the hype this film got, and like it too. But the scares here are sub-standard (what few there are), the dialogue is tired, the borrowed sci-fi plot takes some pretty dubious leaps of logic, and (worst of all) the film is as predictable as can be. I watched this disc with my wife and some friends, and not even halfway through, we'd nailed who the queen alien was, and what our heroes' ultimate secret weapon would be. It was painfully obvious.

Thankfully, in terms of DVD quality, The Faculty redeems itself somewhat. The letterboxed widescreen picture is, as usual from Buena Vista, non-anamorphic. I'm getting tired of saying how disappointing that is in every review I do of their product. But the print used, and the transfer and compression done, are all very good. The color here is excellent. There's good detail most of the time, with only minor edge enhancement visible. The contrast is also very good, with deep blacks, and excellent shadow detail. You'll see some slight digital artifacting, but it's very minor. All in all, it looks pretty good (and anamorphic enhancement might have made it that much better).

But the sound is the real star on this DVD (okay, a daytime soap kinda star, but a star nonetheless). This is pretty good Dolby Digital 5.1 audio. The soundstage is surprisingly deep, with a very acoustic surround mix. There are some occasional rear channel gimmicks, used to reinforce a couple of scares, but all said, this is very natural soundfield. Surprisingly, there's not as much call for rear channel and panning effects in The Faculty as you might think given the genre -- the audio here is mostly dialogue and throbbing rock music. And I did notice a puzzling lack of bass to the mix -- this isn't a disc you'll overwork your subwoofer with. Still, the audio on this disc does the trick when it has to. The only extra provided is a theatrical trailer (I don't consider Buena Vista's "film recommendations" page an extra, thank you very much).

Is The Faculty worth buying on DVD? I don't know. I guess if you've just gotta have it, or are a big fan of the film's creators, then go for it. The disc is definitely worth a rent. The Faculty is not a truly bad flick. It can be fun to watch, even if just for the bigger stars you get to see playing campy bit roles as squid-infested teachers (some no doubt as favors to Rodriguez), among them Salma Hayek, Bebe Neuwirth, Robert Patrick and Jon Stewart. But scary it ain't -- kinda creepy, but not at all scary. If you really dig teen horror, watch Scream again. And if you like creepy sci-fi, give Alien, The Thing, or Invasion of the Body Snatchers a spin instead. You'll be a lot more satisfied.

Bill Hunt
billhunt@thedigitalbits.com

naiad, could this (see end of post for head) be your Antinoos? Found him here (http://oncampus.richmond.edu/academics/as/classics/photos/delphi.html). And yes, what a likeness! Slim, symmetried descent of nose and mouth, large eyes, straight eyebrows an' all. And the hair!!!! And the wide neck - get that, you who think that kid has no neck! He has the neck of a Greek god. So there! Lucky you, naiad, being there to see him in the, er, marble! Wonder how LOTR came across in Greek (if it was in fact dubbed - here we usually get the original version with subtitles in two languages, thank goodness). Some friends of mine who have seen it dubbed in German or French tend to be less overwhelmed than they should be, if you get my meaning: can't help thinking that much of the heart-stopping beauty of FOTR is in the voices of the actors (one in particular, of course). Must make a point of watching the DVD (well, some of it) in G and F to see how well it works.

quote from naiad:
That comment of Ian's always made my blood run cold
Mine too! Several amazing documentaries about Everest recently highlighted the Frodo-and-Sam-like partnership of Hillary and Tenzing (mid-century, i.e. 1953, btw! - Sir Ed is still going strong at 83) and and the contrast between them and the ordeal they went through together and the ultimate triumph and all that -- and the reception they got when they returned to civilisation (Tenzing the hero and Hillary ignored in India; not quite the reverse in the UK, but it was Hillary who got the knighthood while Tenzing was given a medal; unfair, I've always thought).

Led Zep: great comment, naiad! Absolutely true (see also Byron misquote in signature below ....).

(((Whiteling))), wonderful idea about EW being Blake's guidance angel. Wonder how a film of Blake's life would work: his outer life was apparently fairly uneventful, but his inner life anything but! How to encapsulate that within a 2-hour film? Found this ;) while looking for angel quotes:

Because of this emphasis on inspiration, prophets were Blake's favorite Old Testament figures. In one of the 'Memorable Fancies' in The Marriage of Heaven and Hell, for example, he recounts how a Devil met an Angel and convinced him that 'Jesus was all virtue, and acted from impulse: not from rules' - whereupon the Angel was consumed in flames and emerged as the prophet Elijah.

Spooky or what? And this, from the same essay (anonymous, entitled "William Blake and the Wilderness: Inspiration, Art, and Iconoclastic Radicalism", no less), suggests Tolkien may have taken more than a little inspiration from Blake (or is this something everyone but Tolkien ignoramuses like me has known all along?):

Orc is described in religious as well as political terms, as Albion's Angel calls him 'Blasphemous Demon, Antichrist, hater of Dignities;/ Lover of wild rebellion, and transgresser of God's Law.

ainon, thanks for the review of "The Faculty". Must say I agree with pretty much all of it. Not my favourite EW movie, despite its title! Ludicrous and predictable at same time (esp. the way everyone but everyone turns out to be an alien). Liked the bit at the end, though: amazing transformation in Casey's/Elijah's appearance and demeanour just about redeemed the whole thing for me.

Thanks for posting the Faculty review, ainon! I am not a horror-genre person, and I am almost always completely into a story, so who-dunnits are a mystery to me (unless they're extremely poorly handled). That said, I really enjoyed the Faculty. It's not meant to be scary; it's a tongue-in-cheek spoof of the genre. As such, I really appreciated it. There's an opening scene where one of the teachers gets attacked. It is far too violent for me, and completely at odds with the tone of the rest of the movie. When I rented the Faculty, I watched it twice -- but skipped that part on second viewing. I enjoy funny campy pics. To me, the Faculty was one of my favorite EW films pre-LOTR. I still love Bumblebee, because there's so much lovely EW in it, and I love Chain of Fools, because it's so bizarre, but Faculty's right up there.

And now for something completely different -- gossip from the No. 2 train. This was copied wholesale from A&F. I'm quoting it because it's cute, and vaguely relevant as we've been discussing how Elijah can't sing (related to Happy Feet). I had no idea he plays piano. The reason I give any credence to this story is that one of their posters (spies are everywhere!) posted how she ran into Elijah in a CD store (not a shock -- she was on the look-out) and reported that he had shaved his head again after the MTV awards. I disbelieved this report primarily because I didn't want it to be true, but lo and behold, it turned out to be true, although no other sites reported it for a couple of days. So, with that much credibility behind it ;), here's the latest from our someday music producer:

Edit for Serena: The "Elijah can't sing" comment is based on his performances in both Forever Young and North (anything else I'm forgetting?) Yes, he's a lot older now, and may have had lessons. :)

quote to end of post:

Elijah Wood recently gave keen-eared riders on the No. 2 train a preview of his most recent artistic collaboration with fellow actor Viggo Mortensen. We’re not talking about plot points to the last installment of the Lord of the Rings trilogy, but rather his participation in a musical jam session with his Rings co-star and the exotic rock ’n’ roll creature known as Buckethead, which took place during the recording of Mr. Mortensen’s upcoming album of experimental rock.

"The guy is a genius, and I was like, ‘Oh my God, this is my chance,’" Mr. Wood was overheard saying of his opportunity to play piano, percussion and even sing alongside Buckethead, the enigmatic performer who wears the equivalent of a K.F.C. bucket on his head while playing. Buckethead was last seen by a mass audience when he appeared as a member of the new lineup of Guns N’ Roses on the 2002 MTV Music Awards.

"I got to jam for about four hours!" Mr. Wood could be heard saying on the No. 2 train. "It was really fantastic to be able to contribute, and I’m actually going to be on the album!

"According to a rep for Mr. Mortensen, a few weeks ago Mr. Wood and a few cast members from the Rings trilogy paid a visit to Mr. Mortensen, who was in his studio recording with Buckethead. "They ended up jamming," said the rep, "and they used some of that on the album, which is what Elijah was talking about [on the subway]." Mr. Mortensen, who has also expressed himself via painting and photography, has already produced three albums with Buckethead.

Mr. Wood—who was looking very un-Frodo-like on the train with a crew cut, designer jeans, Diesel shoes and a mid-length tan jacket—told his subway companions that Mr. Mortenson’s albums are "very atmospheric. Some of it isn’t really music, but with each progressive album, they’ve become more musical." Mr. Mortensen’s new album, Pandemoniumfromamerica, comes out in November.

(((mariole))) OMG is all I can say! How could I have missed Viggo's albums (actor, poet, photographer and now this ???). And Elijah jamming with Buckethead on the latest one? Too good to be true.

EW's musical ability: who thinks he can't sing, and why? His remark "I can't sing" when talking about "Happy Feet" refers to the penguin, not EW himself. Has anyone heard a recording apart from "You are my Sunshine" in "Forever Young"? That is quite interesting: in the film Nat has just had the idea of singing thrust on him by Daniel, so has had no time to prepare. He's also perched halfway up a tree in the middle of the night (seems to have been filmed exactly like that too!). So Elijah may well have been told not to make it too perfect (funnier that way as well). He starts off sort of sliding into the key of C sharp major and then shoots up to D - but the last couplet is sung more or less perfectly in tune, so I suspect he had a good musical ear even at age 10/11.

And didn't EW say at CM that New Line wants The Hobbits to make a CD in the Abbey Road Studios? Hadn't dared think about that in my wildest dreams. Billy is extremely musical and plays several instruments, it seems. Not sure about the others (EW reportedly used to play the guitar). But OMG, they have a kind of huge songwriting task ahead of them. Will The Hobbits become as big as The Beatles? (discuss!)

Talking of The Beatles: The Hobbits obviously went to a lot of trouble to get the Abbey Road pic right (the one (((Hobmom))) posted is clearly not the real one - taken from the wrong angle and presumably a rehearsal shot). Sean does look barefoot to me, and his stance and clothes (protruding shirt etc.) are exactly like Paul's on the album. Elijah's body language is very much like John's, except hands not in pockets (did that Lennonesque white suit have pockets? It doesn't half suit him - he should wear it more often!). All of them except Sean (like Paul on original pic - the "Paul is dead" thing again) have left foot forward. But when did that shoot take place ???? It's all just too good to be true.

Mariole, you're right about "The Faculty" of course: it must be intended as a total spoof. If I watch it again with that in mind I'll probably enjoy it a lot more. Pity it wasn't advertised as what it is! Everything I've seen about it so far suggests it was meant to be, well, as serious as teen horror flicks can ever be ...

Over and out .....

Thanks for the Antinoos links, Serena (glad you see the very-likeness).

The Greeks I mentioned watched fotr and ttt in English with Gr. subtitles (the only way they'd see an English movie they said - likewise, I don't never watch dubbed movies neither).

Btw, can't wait til you read the books and abandon the 'Tolkien ignoramus' thing! As it is, you seem to have picked all the most salient book-like aspects of the movie to like and expand on. The books'll surely sweep you away. :D

I love that story mariole posted about EW's participation in the Buckethead/Viggo recording session. I mean, the guy was on the subway !?!? Don't know many movie stars (even in NYC) who take the subway... And he was apparently wearing the CTJ! No wonder we all love him!

Speaking of Elwood as a rock star :D I recall some story (brain acting like seive again :rolleyes: ) about EW playing the piano for a scene in Try Seventeen. If he did, the scene didn't make it into the film. But I also remember an interview he gave (was it Rolling Stone?) in which he swore he wouldn't try to use his celebrity as an actor to break into music. 'Course, jamming with experimental musicians is not exactly behaving like a rock star!

wow, serena, I had no idea the term Orc existed before Tolkien! How extremely cool! The academic Tolkien scholars may have known this, but I don't think the whole Tolkien universe does! You are certainly NOT a "Tolkien ignoramus!"

And such a lovely picture of Antinoos! Thanks!

Kalimera to naiad!

Originally posted by Mariole
Edit for Serena: The "Elijah can't sing" comment is based on his performances in both Forever Young and North (anything else I'm forgetting?) Yes, he's a lot older now, and may have had lessons. :)
IIRC, the "can't sing" bit became a standing joke when news came out (after FotR had already been released) that he'd auditioned for Moulin Rouge but hadn't gotten the part. I think it was joked about partly as a "relief reaction"--because if he'd already been cast in Moulin Rouge he wouldn't have been considered for LotR :eek: !! So, while I doubt if Elijah's a really bad singer, I'm still thankful to whatever Fate stepped in to make him not quite good enough to sweep the MR casting people off their feet... ;) Just another in that chain of "coincidences" that led up to him playing Frodo :) .

And I absolutely love that he talks about Mumble [Mumbles?] in the first person :) :) .

--BTW, reading about Elijah's musical interests always reminds me of how old I am :rolleyes: . I've never heard of most of the bands/musicians he mentions, but I'm very happy that he's gotten the chance to be involved in something he enjoys so much. [OTOH, I remember Abbey Road well, even though it was from the later Beatles ;) !]

-----------------------

Wonderful pictures of the Blake angels! I'd looked for some, but couldn't find any that fit nearly as well as the ones already posted here. Maybe a bit off-topic, but one picture that struck me as a William Blake look-alike when I first saw it is the picture of the Balrog in Saruman's book. Something about the way the flames are drawn/painted, I think.

----------------------

One of the things I've been doing is getting the November additions/updates on the website, and it's published now. There's more "new stuff" than I expected to have ready this time around--no new screencaps from TTT, but I think about every other category is covered. ----And, if Sheryl's reading this: You're not hallucinating this month :p . There really are new pics on the "It's My Movie" page ;) .

With some people here who haven't yet read the book, I should probably say that on the JRRT "side" of the site, everything assumes the reader is familiar with, especially, LotR, so labeling spoilers there doesn't even enter my mind. But everything on the EJW side is "safe" :) . Less than two months left, though, before everyone's completely initiated :cool: !!

So, as usual, anyone who wants to see what's there can go to http://www.frodolivesin.us , or click on the WWW at the bottom of any of my posts. Hope there's something worthwhile :) .

shadowcat,
Don't know about Steve Miller, but John F. Kennedy, Jr. certainly has something in common with Blake's angels, or did when he was a bit older than EW (don't believe I've seen any pictures of him since then).

Mariole,
Totally agree with your Faculty review, right down to "skip the opening bit, ick!" ;) My taste in horror films runs more to the Hammer stuff, I'm afraid. Most modern horror films lose me to "How'd they do that?" speculations.

originally posted by serena
So Elijah may well have been told not to make it too perfect (funnier that way as well). He starts off sort of sliding into the key of C sharp major and then shoots up to D - but the last couplet is sung more or less perfectly in tune, so I suspect he had a good musical ear even at age 10/11.

A friend of mine was a rabid Sting fan back when the Police actualy existed, and she had some bootlegs of various concerts. It was clear from the earliest of these that Stewart Copeland of the Police cannot sing on key while onstage (after a bit they quit miking him). But as Klark Kent he actually had a hit song before the Police did ("Don't Care", IIRC), and I kind of like his stuff. He can actually sing in tune - or at least shout that way (Klark was more punk than the Police ever were). :p

I had a friend who really can't sing - she has a nice voice, but she can't stay in tune a'tall. If you can follow Elijah from one key into the other then he probably can sing, in the sense of being able to hit the right notes under the right conditions.

Originally posted by tgshaw

And, if Sheryl's reading this

There's some doubt? :confused: :D

I hope I may share this bit of OT brilliance:

from the current JRRT essay on tg's site
Tolkien had a gift for making statements that immediately strike us as true ("of course," indeed), but elude our grasp when we try to take hold of them ourselves.

Gave a shout of rather bitter laughter reading that, because it is too true! So much of what Tolkien says is so right, but when I try to explain it to someone who doesn't have that "instant of recognition" on hearing Tolkien's words, I find I can't explain it at all. It's still there in his words, yet it isn't quite mine...

Sheryl

Shelohmm/Tg-
Re: "Tolkien had a gift for making statements that immediately strike us as true ("of course," indeed), but elude our grasp when we try to take hold of them ourselves."
What's the context of this? Sounds like Tolkien's words are effete, hyperbole which I'm sure is NOT what Tg means (is it)? I agree, Sheryl, that trying to explain him to someone who doesn't 'get it' to start with is hopeless, but for myself personally, yeah, his truths are within my grasp.

Yasou, peaceweaver!

Serena - Love your sigs (i just read them), especially the Einstein quote.

From TG
Tolkien had a gift for making statements that immediately strike us as true ("of course," indeed), but elude our grasp when we try to take hold of them ourselves.

I find this to be true, too. It's like the space between the ideas is as important as the ideas. I was trying to explain to a friend the associations one particular passage had for me, but I couldn't make it make sense when I said it.

Now I have to go read your essay, TG!

Serena, you're right Antinoos is another look a like. Beautiful.

Glad you all liked my "look alikes!" :)

Watched "The Faculty" with my (very tolerant) husband the other night. I hadn't seen it again since I'd become aware of the concept of "Frodoshadowing." (((TG))) Didn't see much of it in this particular movie. But remember the scene where he has the giggle fit? My husband looks at me and says "I haven't seen much Frodo in this movie, but that was a Lij moment." :p What can I say, I watched that Glick "interview" too many times!

:) 'Lijah Giggles :)

A friend on another board got a bumper sticker that says:

Elijah Wood is Proof that God Loves Us and Wants Us to Be Happy! (If you're not a fan you won't understand!)

How true is that? :D :D :D

Mariole, Thanks for the story about Elijah and Viggo's musical collaboration! Why do I feel I need this thing? Sounds just the thing to get me out of my rut!

Honey!

Originally posted by honeyelf
...My husband looks at me and says "I haven't seen much Frodo in this movie, but that was a Lij moment." :p ...
:D I get a kick out of how Casey changes into Elijah Wood at the end of the movie ;) . So used to seeing Elijah Wood vanish into a character, it's fun to see the opposite!

A friend on another board got a bumper sticker that says:

Elijah Wood is Proof that God Loves Us and Wants Us to Be Happy! (If you're not a fan you won't understand!)

How true is that?
Definitely an improvement over Ben Franklin's original--although a hobbit might not agree :D :D . [Realizing that people all over the world might not be familiar with Ben's wit: 'Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.' :) .]

------------------

[A bit of context for the quote on Tolkien]:

...a letter JRRT had written to Sir Stanley Unwin on 31 July 1947... In part, it reads:
...Of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth. So that the only perfectly consistent allegory is a real life; and the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. And one finds, even in imperfect human 'literature', that the better and more consistent an allegory is the more easily can it be read 'just as a story'; and the better and more closely woven a story is the more easily can those so minded find allegory in it. But the two start out from opposite ends...
"Of course, Allegory and Story converge, meeting somewhere in Truth." Tolkien had a gift for making statements that immediately strike us as true ("of course," indeed), but elude our grasp when we try to take hold of them ourselves. But I think that's a large part of what Story is all about... Since it first came into existence around the fires of early humans, the purpose of Story has been to talk about things that are too deep within us to be spoken as simple facts, but instead use images to speak their Truth.

[/A bit of context]

I hope it doesn't sound as if I'm saying Tolkien's statements are non-understandable. IMHO it's closer to the opposite--they hit us at such a basic human level of understanding that they're hard to give a scholarly "explanation" of.

It might be a bit clearer in its larger context: a whole series of essays where I'm trying to come to at least a partial answer to the question "Is Middle-earth Real?" I've been at it all year, but don't know that I'm any closer to answering it. But that's what I love about Tolkien, and what makes him and his work a lifelong study--there's really no end to it. And I think a large part of the reason for that is that he/it speaks to us on such a basic human level. There's more in his words than can be put into words :confused: if you take my meaning...

But don't worry, the essay series will have an end :o -- next month -- even without an answer :p .

HI all. I used to post over at CoE, got lost in the shuffle and RL intervened. Just wanted to get back into some intense discussion re: FroLijah. So, I'm going to spend some time reading back pages before I dare contribute.;) Got thru the first 10 and last 10 so far...:p
On quick question re: KD. Is there a forum for the Toronto meet and who is going?
Thanks for your indulgences and your insights; I've been loving what I've been reading!!:D

Hi, MsNiphredil! And welcome back.:)

There is a thread for the Toronto meet: right here, (http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=2163) in the KD Festivals forum (which itself is in the Reception forum).:)

How does Elijah melt into Casey or Casey into Elijah? I don't get it.

It also doesn't make sense that after his dad says, "No, Internet!" Then we see casey typing something on his computer! What is he typing? And is it any wonder Elijah falls out of his window? Name a movie where eventually he falls down, due to not watching where's he going. :D

Also name a guy that looks as graceful doing it. :D

Makes me tingle, how about you? :)

Thanks, TgShaw, for the explanation and your other inspired comments. Looking forward to checking out the new material at your site.

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
How does Elijah melt into Casey or Casey into Elijah? I don't get it.
Interesting that this wasn't as easy to show as I thought it would be. I thought I could take a screencap of Casey before his "make-over" and one after and put them side-by-side to show the difference. But a lot of "Casey" must be in his movement, because the two weren't all that different. The hair's brushed a little differently... Possibly more of a confident attitude afterward, that doesn't really show up well in stills? But even if they don't look much different, pre-saving-the-world Casey's a whole different person from post-saving-the-world Casey, with the latter IMHO coming across as awfully close to a non-acting Elijah Wood. (But I love that he'd still take a picture of a butterfly after he's become a hero :) .)

It also doesn't make sense that after his dad says, "No, Internet!" Then we see casey typing something on his computer! What is he typing?
I do believe that's supposed to tell us that his dad's not very computer savvy :rolleyes: . He thought he'd cut off Casey's Internet connection, but really hadn't--I'm guessing Casey's not phone modem dependent ;) .

[One cute little thing I noticed last time I watched (everyone else probably saw it long ago :rolleyes: ) -- Casey's dad has a bumper sticker that says, "My son is a Herrington High honor roll student" :) ]

And is it any wonder Elijah falls out of his window? Name a movie where eventually he falls down, due to not watching where's he going. :D
Hmmm... off the top of my head :p :

--All I Want/Try Seventeen
--Chain of Fools
--The Faculty
--Forever Young (offscreen)
--The Ice Storm (IIRC??--maybe not)
--The Lord of the Rings/The Fellowship of the Ring
--The Lord of the Rings/The Two Towers
--Spy Kids 3D

------What have I forgotten? :p

Also name a guy that looks as graceful doing it. :D
Donald O'Connor, definitely--sorry to lose him some weeks ago :( but IIRC you can still see his lovely pratfalls in "Singing in the Rain" :) . I'd add Gene Kelly, but he never quite looks like he's "falling down" even when he's falling down, if you take my meaning :p .

Ah, tg, I see that you already have incorporated the latest angst-inducing ROTK photos into your avatar collection! Bravo!:cool: :) :)

erm, I have never noticed the bumper sticker on Casey's dad's car.:o As I was telling peaceweaver the other night, this is a film that a true Elwood fan simply must have on DVD. Think I'll ask for it for Christmas.;) :p

Just popping in (when I should be grading more essays :eek: ) to add to tg's list of Elwoodian falls:

How about Flipper?
The Good Son?
Radio Flyer?

In short, I think the entire oeuvre of this actor must be rigorously studied ;) for insight into the techniques employed in this important aspect of EW's acting. Faculty Colleagues! Onward!

IIRC he ends up on the ground in both The Good Son and Radio Flyer. No time for detailed research just now.
Flipper? Does being knocked into the sea by a dolphin count? [Erm, can I admit to sort of liking Flipper without being expelled? :eek: I adore Chain of Fools and Bumblebee and The Ice Storm, just to put the record straight ... and OK, I'll borrow The Faculty - the film, that is, not you guys -- back from the video club to which I donated it, honest :eek: :eek: ]

Just as well I didn't know when I spent two days in NY in September that Elwood is living there and riding the No 2 train -- I'd have been tempted to spend those two days in the subway looking for him instead of doing, oh, the infinitely more important things :D I actually did ....
Peaceweaver, I too love the fact that he rides the subway -- and wears the CTJ almost everywhere. The guy is so unpretentious it isn't true. Which reminds me of this snippet from yet another review (I'd assumed until recently that everyone would have read all FOTR reviews that praise Elwood, but it seems that's not always the case :) ):
Wood is perfect as Frodo, the one being with enough humility not to be seduced by the ring's glamour. The role requires a quality of being as much as acting, and Wood's performance will come as a relief after many nauseating seasons of vile young screen actors embodying vile and narcissistic characters. It's a beautiful thing--an unsnotty, available, affectionate, and utterly open performance. ~ Mick LaSalle, The San Francisco Chronicle
That really nails it, don't you think? I have lots more enthusiastic quotes from critics, if anyone's interested ....

BTW, it turns out the word "orc" is in the New Shorter OED, meaning a sea monster, usually a killer whale (Latin "orca"). Tolkien's use of the word is also discussed there! But Blake seems to have adopted the word first and used it as a name for the "fiery spirit of revolution", also referred to by "Albion's Angel" as "the Antichrist": Tolkien must have been aware of Blake's usage of the word! Not that I'm any sort of Blake expert; it's all taken from an essay here (http://www.squibix.net/blake/m/wilderness.html).
tollkühn)? I'm sure Whiteling has noticed that ;) ]

Mariole, Tg, shilohmm: thanks for comments about EW's singing!
North: not fair to judge EW's singing from that tiny bit of "Fiddler"; he was having to ham that up totally, and I know from experience how hard it is for much older people to sing properly while prancing about the way Elijah had to in that scene! As for [i]Forever Young, lots of adults are completely incapable of starting a song from scratch without being given a pitch or a starting note. Elijah, aged 10, had to do that in a tree with a battery of movie cameras pointed at him! He may even have changed key deliberately after realising the initial key was slightly too low for him. And I also know from experience how often the very take you don't want to be used ends up being used, often for completely unrelated reasons (like how funny and charming it is in this case). Go Elijah -- we want to hear you sing (well, I do, anyway)! :)

Tg, thanks for your musings on allegory and story. Must read your essays if they're on your site! In Tolkien I assume The One Ring is a straightforward allegory of the power that corrupts and binds and Sauron perhaps a straightforward allegory of evil. If so, the entire Rings story becomes allegorical, to some extent, in each reader's (or viewer's) imagination. Was it Keats who said that imagination is truth? (Aha - found it: "The Imagination may be compared to Adam's dream--he awoke and found it truth.") Maybe JRRT was driving at the same thing.
(BTW, in my literature classes we'd probably have called hobbits an expanded metaphor: their close relationship with the earth is made literal and tangible in the form of the hobbit holes they live in, their humility in their literal smallness, their carefree nature in the lush and fertile countryside (not to mention the pubs!) they live in, and so on. If so, then Frolijah's outward, physical beauty must be an expanded metaphor for his inner, intangible beauty. And whoever made Elijah chose the right vessel for that beauty of spirit that makes his Frodo leap out of the screen (to quote Ian McK). PJ, JRRT and God must all have loved us and wanted us to be happy! End of mini-essay .....)

I'm supposed to be working for another 20 minutes or so, but since my brain's decided to quit for the day, thought I'd drop in here instead ;) . Fair warning :p

Originally posted by Goldenberry
Ah, tg, I see that you already have incorporated the latest angst-inducing ROTK photos into your avatar collection! Bravo!:cool: :) :)

Well, just that one--I figured if I trimmed off everything but the face it would get rid of any possible spoiler evidence. Don't know if that would work with the others. I mean, everybody certainly knows Frodo goes through a bit of a hard time, but... :eek: :eek:

I'm going to do some more tweaking with that particular one, and if I can get it to look good enough may even keep using it til RotK opens... maybe :p As Ariel said in the RotK spoilers thread, Frodo looks like he's got some backbone in that shot :cool: .

Edit after reading Serena's post: After my brain has quit for the day is not a good time for me to try to expound on Tolkien's thoughts on allegory :( . Suffice it to say that IMVHO nothing in his writing is a simple allegory for anything, mostly because he rarely looks at anything from only one direction (he didn't believe in absolute evil, and said even Sauron wasn't completely evil; and multiple chapters have been written about the subtleties of power/evil embodied in the Ring).

Tolkien very much wanted people to apply his writings--particularly LotR--to their own lives. The people who made him hot under the collar were those who made pronouncements about the meaning of something he wrote--that is, believed that their interpretation was the only right one. He wanted each reader to be free to find his or her own meanings, which makes sense because he wrote it as "feigned history" -- and history (even one historical event) can be looked at in many different ways and from many different angles.

BTW--It's very dangerous to get me started talking about Tolkien, even when my brain is fried--maybe especially when my brain is fried :rolleyes: --because it's too hard for me to stop!! There are threads on his writing that could be "resurrected" in The Green Dragon, if anyone's interested, since the purpose of this forum isn't to discuss his books. But I rather suspect people are caught up in the RotK movie discussion right now :) .

-----And if you want to post some more of those FotR review quotes, I'm all for it. I'm sure I read most of them at the time they were written, but it's nice to be reminded of them again :) .

Serena - Thank you SO much for finding and posting this unusually sensitive review:Wood is perfect as Frodo, the one being with enough humility not to be seduced by the ring's glamour. The role requires a quality of being as much as acting, and Wood's performance will come as a relief after many nauseating seasons of vile young screen actors embodying vile and narcissistic characters. It's a beautiful thing--an unsnotty, available, affectionate, and utterly open performance. ~ Mick LaSalle, The San Francisco ChronicleI figured that posting the quote again gives a better chance that HE will see it if he's near...

Tg - Glad you epxlained matters about allegory and Tolkien. If you hadn't, I'd have given a shot, but not nearly as neatly as you did.

Hey now.:p I liked "Moulin Rouge." And "North," for that matter.;)

I think it's also very possible that EW didn't get cast in "Moulin Rouge" because he was too young. I'd bet that's at least part of the reason, anyway. I just can't see him acting opposite Nicole Kidman.:o

Re: Moulin Rouge

Now, why does everyone assume that he was auditioning for the lead? He was only 17 (or was it 18?) at the time, so the lead audition doesn't seem likely to me. Perhaps it was just an audition for any part, or for one of the smaller parts (he would have made a fabulous Audrey, for example. ;) ). Maybe he just thought it would be cool to be in a Baz Luhrmann film, even if it was just a small role. :cool: It seems like the sort of thing he'd do, to me.

What does it mean in "The Faculty" where the shot of his father's bumper sticker about Casey Being an honor student supposed to mean?

Does it fit in with the tone of the movie? or

Does it say something about Casey?

:confused:

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
What does it mean in "The Faculty" where the shot of his father's bumper sticker about Casey Being an honor student supposed to mean?

We know that Casey's an honor roll student, and those bumper stickers are so ubiquitous... I just thought it was a cute little detail for them to add. No big "meaning" to it, unless someone else can come up with one :) . I do have a sneaking suspicion it was Casey's mother who put it on the car... Dad seems to consider his son's straight A's more of a problem than something to be proud of--"First a straight-A student and now this!" :rolleyes:

----------

IMHO, BB is probably right about the MR audition--since Elijah likes to try different things, I can see him being interested in that movie, but probably not for the lead.

Auditions are just a part of daily life for most actors, and I don't know that the MR one was a bigger deal to Elijah than other auditions were--but it was to some of us fans who heard about it :p , simply because of the unthinkable consequences if he would have gotten cast :eek: :eek: !!

So the "not being able to sing" idea just grew into an affectionate, kidding type of standing joke--kind of like poking fun at the CTJ--with an extra layer of "whew!" factor on top :) . As far as I know, it was never meant as a serious statement about Elijah's singing ability. But I can see how it might come across differently to those who weren't in on the original joke--so I'll try to be good and not kid about it any more :o , and will submit to any troutings that occur if I forget :) . I'm sure Elijah's a very capable singer--I can't imagine that he would have even auditioned for a musical if he weren't.

Originally posted by Serena:
I have lots more enthusiastic quotes from critics, if anyone's interested ....

I am! I am!:p Probably read most of them when they came out, but it is always nice to revisit the praise for Elijah's amazing performance.

Shadowcatshadow, you ask some good questions. Don't be afraid to weigh in with some answers of your own! Such is the stuff of a good discussion.

originally posted by TgShaw
"not being able to sing" idea just grew into an affectionate, kidding type of standing joke

Don't worry, I'd guessed that :D (what I wrote was not meant to be 100% serious either!) Will gladly drop the subject now. Except for one last question: what supporting roles were there in MR? (I can't actually remember any -- which could reflect the fact that I fell asleep halfway through it, being a captive viewer on a long-haul flight -- which I guess means my assessment of the film is totally invalid ....)

Bridget, talking of invalid assessments, I may have said a while back that I didn't like North -- but that hasn't stopped me watching it about a dozen times so far. ;) And it does have some redeeming features (as well as Elijah :)): the Bruce Willis character, for one. But it could have been such a great film if handled just slightly differently!
So I wonder: if it had been a box-office success -- and that goes for a lot of EW's other films too -- would Elwood have become a megastar earlier, and would that have ruled him out of LOTR? Maybe all those commercial flops flopped for a purpose ...

originally posted by TgShaw
nothing in his writing is a simple allegory for anything ... (he didn't believe in absolute evil, and said even Sauron wasn't completely evil)

Aha! Glad you told me. Sauron has looked pretty evil in the movies so far (will he show a human face in the last one? -- no, don't answer that!). Trying to interpret Tolkien from the movies (plus discussions by those who know his works) clearly a bad move ;) . Will make point of not doing in future!
However, I didn't mean "simple"; "straightforward" isn't quite the same thing; nor would I claim that any one interpretation is correct, even where Sauron is concerned (about whom I admit I know very little!). T himself says in that beautiful passage you quoted that the only fully intelligible story is an allegory. What I'd meant (and failed!) to imply in the last post (also v. late at night) was that the exact nature of the allegory inherent in all art is left to the reader/viewer/listener to decide. Some say rightly that a work of art exists only in the performance; and with novels or poetry, the performance is in the act of reading. No art has any meaning at all except in the mind of the observer (OMG, are we getting into quantum effects here? :eek: ). But this is pretty much what you say yourself, so I think we agree really :) :

originally posted by TgShaw
He wanted each reader to be free to find his or her own meanings, which makes sense because he wrote it as "feigned history" -- and history (even one historical event) can be looked at in many different ways and from many different angles.


Yeah!

PS: List of review snippets under preparation .....

Serena, have you got my favorite review? The one where the woman reviewer states that when the aliens come they will want EJW for his Perfect DNA ? :D :D :D

I remember way back when "Deep Impact" was in theaters, thinking that EW looked like an obsession waiting to happen, but I told myself "Goodness, woman, he's way to young!" Then he did "Flipper" and I kinda went "OK, see, stupid movie choice; he's just a flash in the pan, another pretty young actor." Forgot about him, and then FOTR. "Oh, that kid that was in "Flipper;" yeah, OK." Little did I know I'd wind up here with an entire 'faculty' of women who have likewise succumbed to the obsession! :) Life is weird.

Honey!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by TgShaw
He wanted each reader to be free to find his or her own meanings, which makes sense because he wrote it as "feigned history" -- and history (even one historical event) can be looked at in many different ways and from many different angles.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

IMHO this is (one of) the reason(s) why Tolkien readers discuss his work for almost 50 years. Every single one of them has his own perception and interpretation of the professor's created cosmos called "Middle-earth".


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
originally posted by Serena
Some say rightly that a work of art exists only in the performance; and with novels or poetry, the performance is in the act of reading. No art has any meaning at all except in the mind of the observer (OMG, are we getting into quantum effects here?).
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I agree, Serena, art needs the observer to come to existence. It's like Schrödinger's cat - if one can't see it, is it existing at all? :confused: Or this zen riddle: "If you put out meaning and sound, what do you hear?"
Art needs resonance. I think, Tolkien uses deeply rooted archetypical images full of great power and truth - this makes LOTR so irresistible for me. And - to bring this back OT - a certain actor incarnates the essential attributes of one of the main characters so wonderfully perfect... and to that performance I feel a very strong resonance ;) !

Ahem, I'm too very interested in the enthusiastic reviews...

from honeyelf:
have you got my favorite review? The one where the woman reviewer states that when the aliens come they will want EJW for his Perfect DNA ?

NOOOOO, honeyelf !! Even after spending weeks trawling the Net in early 2002 I hadn't netted that one. Amazing! Please please post it! :k

Hi Whiteling! Have you come across the Story of Schrödinger's Cat (an epic poem)? Link removed (Note: this may at first glance seem WAY off topic, but it does feature our friend Al Einstein as well as being an epic story -- OK, tenuous, I admit.) :rolleyes:

From "The Straight Dope"
Dear Cecil:

Cecil, you're my final hope
Of finding out the true Straight Dope
For I have been reading of Schroedinger's cat
But none of my cats are at all like that.
This unusual animal (so it is said)
Is simultaneously live and dead!
What I don't understand is just why he
Can't be one or other, unquestionably.
My future now hangs in between eigenstates.
In one I'm enlightened, the other I ain't.
If you understand, Cecil, then show me the way
And rescue my psyche from quantum decay.
But if this queer thing has perplexed even you,
Then I will and won't see you in Schroedinger's zoo.
--Randy F., Chicago

Dear Randy:

Schroedinger, Erwin! Professor of physics!
Wrote daring equations! Confounded his critics!
(Not bad, eh? Don't worry. This part of the verse
Starts off pretty good, but it gets a lot worse.)
Win saw that the theory that Newton'd invented
By Einstein's discov'ries had been badly dented.
What now? wailed his colleagues. Said Erwin, "Don't panic,
No grease monkey I, but a quantum mechanic.
Consider electrons. Now, these teeny articles
Are sometimes like waves, and then sometimes like particles.
If that's not confusing, the nuclear dance
Of electrons and suchlike is governed by chance!
No sweat, though--my theory permits us to judge
Where some of 'em is and the rest of 'em was."
Not everyone bought this. It threatened to wreck
The comforting linkage of cause and effect.
E'en Einstein had doubts, and so Schroedinger tried
To tell him what quantum mechanics implied.
Said Win to Al, "Brother, suppose we've a cat,
And inside a tube we have put that cat at--
Along with a solitaire deck and some Fritos,
A bottle of Night Train, a couple mosquitoes
(Or something else rhyming) and, oh, if you got 'em,
One vial prussic acid, one decaying ottom
Or atom--whatever--but when it emits,
A trigger device blasts the vial into bits
Which snuffs our poor kitty. The odds of this crime
Are 50 to 50 per hour each time.
The cylinder's sealed. The hour's passed away. Is
Our pussy still purring--or pushing up daisies?
Now, you'd say the cat either lives or it don't
But quantum mechanics is stubborn and won't.
Statistically speaking, the cat (goes the joke),
Is half a cat breathing and half a cat croaked.
To some this may seem a ridiculous split,
But quantum mechanics must answer, "Tough @#&!
We may not know much, but one thing's fo' sho':
There's things in the cosmos that we cannot know.
Shine light on electrons--you'll cause them to swerve.
The act of observing disturbs the observed--
Which ruins your test. But then if there's no testing
To see if a particle's moving or resting
Why try to conjecture? Pure useless endeavor!
We know probability--certainty, never.'
The effect of this notion? I very much fear
'Twill make doubtful all things that were formerly clear.
Till soon the cat doctors will say in reports,
"We've just flipped a coin and we've learned he's a corpse."'
So saith Herr Erwin. Quoth Albert, "You're nuts.
God doesn't play dice with the universe, putz.
I'll prove it!" he said, and the Lord knows he tried--
In vain--until fin'ly he more or less died.
Win spoke at the funeral: "Listen, dear friends,
Sweet Al was my buddy. I must make amends.
Though he doubted my theory, I'll say of this saint:
Ten-to-one he's in heaven--but five bucks says he ain't."

--CECIL ADAMS

I'm also looking forward to the old Elwood reviews. As one who, unfortunately, didn't get on the EW bandwagon until after TTT, I missed a lot. I remember tossing that Parade magazine before I knew who he was. :(

tg--I much admire your spoiler-free trimming service avatar. When I first saw the original (spoiler) pic, I thought 'hey maybe (hubby) would help me figure out how to crop that for an avatar'. I actually saved it as "froav". But, hey, you did a much better job and I probably wouldn't have gotten around to it until..........
Oh, and those are wonderful additions to your web site! I like the "Elwoodian" addition, essays and the new screencaps.

By the way, I think New Line should do a once a year Trilogy presentation in theaters, say the second or third weekend in December, starting 2004. They could sell out way beforehand. Now that would be cool. When I was little they used to bring Gone With The Wind and The Sound of Music back to the theaters frequently. I have to believe LOTR will be as much of a classic.

OT: I can't resist posting my favorite "zen" riddle: "What is the sound of one hand clapping?" ;)

Serena said:
NOOOOO, honeyelf !! Even after spending weeks trawling the Net in early 2002 I hadn't netted that one. Amazing! Please please post it!

Bummer! :( I don't have it either. Someone posted a link to it months back on another board. I only saw it the once. I'll go digging and see what I can come up with.

Honey!

In the Bubmblebee flies anyway? was that his real body? Is his chest and arms really that muscular?

I can't wait to see him in "Hooligans." think of how he'll look then? LOL.

Serena--I l-o-v-e that poem :D !! Probably the clearest explanation of quantum mechanics I've ever seen!! :D (I've never heard it called an "epic story" before, but what the heck :p .) That will definitely have to get posted at work--along with the Fermi quote from whiteling's sig :D .

And, let's see, as far as bringing it on-topic... Well, it fits pretty well into a discussion of Tolkien's writing, because he deals so much with paradox... and because he deals so much with paradox, his characters often have conflicting emotions... and who could better play his most conflicted character than Elwood, who I first saw "do" conflicting emotions when he was ten years old? So that's not far off at all, is it :p ?

That goes back to just a comment or two on some earlier posts--IMVHO, the hardest thing about relating Tolkien's writing to the LotR movies is that, quite understandablly, the movies have to simplify things. So the good characters are very, very good and the bad characters are very, very bad. In the LotR book--and much of his other writing--IMHO there's a stronger sense of that "line between good and evil running through the human heart," simply because the characters and situations are much more complex (although sometimes you have to dig below the surface a bit to discover the complexities). There are a couple of exceptions--characters the movies expanded on--but generally speaking...

Along with whiteling's comment about the varying interpretations of different readers (which I heartily agree with!), I believe it's that complexity that makes Tolkien's cosmos infinitely discussable!

To the brave souls who are waiting to read LotR until after the third movie... I'm feeling your pain :( . There've been a number of times already where I've longed to say, "Oh!! Oh!! Go read this essay on my website where I talk about that and let me know what you think!" but then realize I can't because there's some statement in the essay that would completely ruin the story for anyone who doesn't know it all the way to the end.

Six weeks! I don't know if that should be only six more weeks :) , or... geez, six more weeks :( . In my heart of hearts, guess I'm hoping that when we can talk about the totality of LotR, maybe the poor old Green Dragon (which is down to one active thread at the moment as people get more involved in movie excitement) can be resurrected. There are some things I've been thinking about adding to Hobmom's thread on Frodo there that I've been holding back on til after the movie comes out.

kuduk, thanks for the kind words on the avatar and the website. I still want to tweak the avatar some when I have the time--the cropping wasn't too difficult, but it's one of those pics where I'm having a hard time making it clear in that small size. Need to play around with the contrast, brightness, color, etc. some more. He has such an amazing expression on his face, and I don't think the avatar quite does it justice yet. BTW, I also have a non-spoiler-cropped version waiting in the wings :) . And on the website, "elwoodian," of course, comes from this thread, as most of the stuff in the glossary does... was it Mariole that came up with that one? I can't always remember the individual who started a certain term :o , but I know it's from the Faculty :k .

SCS--Our posting schedules seem to always make mine the first post after yours, but I'm going to pass on responding today... :)

Serena, that poem - ROTFLMAO :D ! So even the quantum mechanics lead us back to Elwood without fail :p !

*gulp* - six weeks :eek: ! I'm with you, tg, I don't know if it is only six more weeks, or six more weeks. I've read ROTK a few month ago and the more the last installment approaches the more I get cold feet. Knowing about Elijah's terrible intensity as actor/Frodo I fear for my mental health, really! Reading the book brought me partly to the point I thought I couldn't bear it further. Frodo's and Sam's battling their way through Mordor, their endless drudgery, this tremendous torture of body, soul and mind :( ! - I should do the same as Kuduk: buying Kleenex, king-size package!

In this worn out condition it was a great pleasure to visit your site, tg! I love especially the screencaps of Nat bringing down the airplane. Thanks ! :k

Honeyelf, I too have tried looking up "DNA" and "elijah wood" in Google. Second of some 2300 hits was this from one Adrian Ryan at Link removed:

The first time I ever saw Elijah Wood: The Rosie O'Donnell Show, three-ish years ago. Rosie force-fed Elijah barbecued buffalo wings. He obviously didn't want to eat the buffalo wings. It was very surreal and disturbing--this big, huge, and (then) repressed dyke forcing this precious little 98-pound darling to choke down these crazy barbecued buffalo wings. But Elijah was so sweet about humoring the crazy lady--and he was so ****ing ADORABLE with that crazy hair and those big blue eyes--that I developed a crush that has endured to this day.

Erm, not sure of Adrian's persuasion, but note he's a guy! And when the article went on to say EW had been spotted all over NY hand in hand with a nubile female twice his size, I very nearly posted the paragraph here with a big headline ELWOOD HAS NEW GIRLFRIEND !! :cool: :cool: , only to realise it dated from April 2002 :( and therefore that must have been Franka. Oh well.

But I did find this :):):):):):) :
Elijah Wood: Frodo Baggins

Okay, I'm shamelessly partial here. I'm known among my friends for having a rough time evaluating entertainment objectively when my hormones wake up, but in that respect I am no more biased than the legions of male reviewers who praise women to the skies whose sole qualifications for a given role are non-biodegradable. Wood clearly is not in that crowd, as he was able to hold his (very young) own on a thirty-foot screen against such luminaries as Cate Blanchett and Ian McKellen. He was eloquent, is the only way to put it. He radiated such goodness and honesty that you knew that there must not be another person in all of Middle Earth who is capable of carrying that ring without being seduced by it so far. Even when he was being compelled to put it on, you got the feeling that the compulsion was of a different flavor than the self-motivated lust of the others members of the Fellowship (or Galadriel). They were compelled to take the ring by their own weaknesses, but in his case, the ring was compelled to put itself on him so that it could be found by the wraiths. Overall, you just know that Frodo ain't got a nasty bone in his body, and Wood carried it off while still remaining thoughtful and vulnerable instead of a flat goodie-goodie cypher. Frodo has definitely found himself in over his head, but he's neither entirely capsized by it nor rising to the occasion like a cardboard hero. Throughout the movie, he manages to get across both the innate indomitability of the hobbits and the fact that all of the dripping, stinky nastiness he's going through just offends his hobbity sense of decency. There are many layers to his journey, and Wood seems to be capable of communicating them all.

And yes. He's so beautiful that it almost breaks your heart. Who would have thought that Hobbits were turned out by the Meissen factory? I can only hope that this movie doesn't cast a very long shadow over his career à la "Star Wars" and Mark Hamill, although given that Wood can clearly act rings around Hamill (I adore the guy, but John Barrymore he's not) hopefully This Will Not Come To Pass. He does have to start making some very adroit decisions about what projects he'll want to be a part of, though. He's not a Tom Hanks or Jimmy Stewart type of Everyman actor, as he has a very unique look to him. He's a leading actor who will likely go the character route. (He should look toward some indie stuff, or a milder "Trainspotting" sort of thing that will allow him to play a bleak, nihilistic chain-smoker in a supporting role.) It's going to be especially tricky for him in a few years when he is beyond college age and wildly popular movies are still being released that show him just past puberty. Negotiating that's going to take a level head and a good portion of luck. I hope he's got both in abundance, because I really would like this to be a career-builder and not a career summit for the beautiful and talented Elijah Wood.
...... (later)
The Too Hot To Die Award: Elijah Wood. I didn't write "The Lord of the Rings," okay? But if I had, and if I had designed my very own fantasy world, all men would be legally required to look like this. I don't want to keep harping on it, because he's also just really damned good -- and beauty is easy while talent takes a lot of work. But, still -- barring undetectable disabilities, when the space aliens land on the Earth and want some error-free human DNA with which to calibrate their instruments, they're going to pick his.


I guess this is the review you meant, Honeyelf? :) The whole hilarious thing can be found
Link removed
OK, it was written by a woman (surprise!) called Janis Cortese. Go her! She should join The Faculty forthwith.:D
PS Prophetic about the chain-smoker in a supporting role, what? And the current shaven head is a little nihilistic in appearance. Thank goodness Elwood remains his beautiful and graceful self despite his best efforts to the contrary!

Just spotted this, from IMDB:


Movie star Elijah Wood is planning to branch out into music in a big way - by setting up his own record label. The Lord Of The Rings star has recently moved from Los Angeles to New York, and the music scene in the big apple has inspired him to do something for emerging bands. And now he's planning to sink his movie money into a new label. He says, "I want to start a record label, and find bands and release records. I've thought seriously about that. I've been lucky enough to meet a lot of people that I respect, in the music industry, that I feel will be a good guide for me to get started. I've got a good base. I don't know when I'll start it, but it is something that I will start, at some point." And one artist he'd love to have on his roster is his Lord of The Rings castmate Viggo Mortensen. He adds, "I actually just recorded on a record of his - Dom Monaghan, Billy Boyd and I went into the studio and played music on Viggo's new album. It's amazing."

I don't know how reliable information on IMDB is, but it does make it sound like a record label may be a sooner rather than later dream of his. I think it's very cool!
:cool:

((((((((Serena!!!))))))))))):k That's the one! I love that review! I love that she swoons over Elijah as much as we all do!

Who would have thought that Hobbits were turned out by the Meissen factory?

I love that! :D :D :D


when the space aliens land on the Earth and want some error-free human DNA with which to calibrate their instruments, they're going to pick his.

OH Yeah! I say we make Ms. Cortese an honorary member of the Faculty forthwith!!!!

I finally decided to go ahead and order "Chain of Fools" from yesasia.com. The very next day I found a used copy of "All I Want" at Blockbuster. All this unusual activity on my credit card alerted the credit card company, who then left a message on my phone to call them, which my son retrieved. I call them back and explain that, yes indeed these were my charges. (I didn't bother to explaint that this was only the latest symptom of my crush on an actor half my age. ;) ) Though the 'problem' has thus been dealt with, my son feels the necessity to tell my husband about my 'unusual activity' on the credit card, which means that I then have to explain myself. LOL! :o Good thing he's fairly tolerant of my little obsession! :rolleyes: :o

Serena, you queen! I read that review long ago and lost it. Thank you so much for finding it again! I forgot how hillarious it was -- not to mention exactly to my taste. :p Yes, definitely, too hot to die. ("Did I say that out loud?" Ah, flashbacks to the Very Secret Diaries!) :D

Honeyelf, I think both you and your husband will enjoy CoF. It's not just your Elijah obsession, it's good entertainment, and we wish it had gotten into the theatres, yes we does. My personal belief is that because it uses dark humor, and pokes fun at a subject that is absolutely verboten in American society, someone figured it wouldn't have an audience. I really like movies like this. Anyone remember "Into the Night?" Another weird one with Jeff Goldblum, very good but surreal. And I love "Adventures in Babysitting." I guess thoughtful humor is one of those difficult things to find a wide audience for -- as opposed to slapstick, which is all too common.

BB, TORn reported Elijah's record label news as well. As he tends to keep things close to the vest, I'm thinking he might be actually pretty far along in planning this record label, to have it come out in the news. Go, Elwood! It's delightful that he has something he loves so much to invest his money in.

Oh yes, and tg, I know you're not here :p but I am also enjoying the new pics on your site. Thank you!

Knowing about Elijah's terrible intensity as actor/Frodo I fear for my mental health, really! Reading the book brought me partly to the point I thought I couldn't bear it further. Frodo's and Sam's battling their way through Mordor, their endless drudgery, this tremendous torture of body, soul and mind ! - I should do the same as Kuduk: buying Kleenex, king-size package!

Don't think I will survive this movie - especially after reading THIS:(

CONTAINS ROTK SPOILERS!!

LORD OF THE RINGS star ELIJAH WOOD is trying to avoid watching the final part of the trilogy - because a segment of it has already brought him to tears.

The actor, who plays unlikely Hobbit hero FRODO BAGGINS in the epic films, was left sobbing in the cinema when director PETER JACKSON showed his cast the final hour of the film this summer (03).

And he hopes he never has to sit through the experience again.

He says, "I've never cried so intensely in a movie theatre before. It's really shocking. I think fans of the book know how emotional it's going to be, but I don't think there's anything that can really prepare you for what the last hour of this movie is going to do.

"It's pretty relentless. It wrecked me, and I was in it. I was sobbing. There's a couple of moments when ARAGORN is made king - a moment between Aragorn and the Hobbits that I can't really go into detail about, but it is incredibly emotional.

"There's also a scene at the end of the movie where the Hobbits say goodbye to each other, and f***, that's hard to watch. It's so sad because I can actually see myself saying goodbye to my friends."

Ouch.

You and me both, shireling. This is EXACTLY what I have been fearing about ROTK: that it will prove to be so emotional that I won't be able to watch it very often. Healing time will be need between viewings.

I mean, I still cry at several points in Fellowship after well over a dozen viewings!:o :rolleyes: :eek:

Serena, would you please pm me the link to the entire review by Janis Cortese? The site must be not-PG13, because Bridget has removed the link. Thanks!:)

Actually if Elijah was reduced to a gigantic, soggy puddle of tears by his own film this bodes extremely well for ROTK being exactly as it should be. And our boy's Oscar chances just sky-rocketed.

I love that boy!! Oh, you all knew that before....

Really, this is about the best news I've heard! And as the angst lover I am, I think I will be living in my local mega-plex from December on until I can get a dvd of ROTK and maybe afterwards, as well.

If ROTK doesn't reduce us all to copious tears I would be extremely disappointed.

To think that I may spend the next year or so in Frolijah induced tears makes me happier than a clam!:D ;) ;)

ROTK spoiler






Originally posted by shireling
"There's also a scene at the end of the movie where the Hobbits say goodbye to each other, and f***, that's hard to watch. It's so sad because I can actually see myself saying goodbye to my friends."

Okay, I started to cry just reading that.

I'm in deep trouble come December.

You maybe should mark that last post as a spoiler, Elda. ;)

shireling--Hope you don't mind I posted that last bit in the RotK Spoilers thread. Where is it from, BTW--or did I miss that?

Originally posted by Hobmom

If ROTK doesn't reduce us all to copious tears I would be extremely disappointed.


Man, I had problems watching parts of TTT because my eyes would tear up - sounds like I'm not going to be able to see ROTK at all!

:cool:

Sheryl

shireling--Hope you don't mind I posted that last bit in the RotK Spoilers thread. Where is it from, BTW--or did I miss that?

Of course I don't mind - and sorry I forgot to mention where it was from - this is the link, you need to scroll down to get the link to the article:

http://www.wizardnews.com

Hubby had got my ROTK Visual Companion when I got home from work - & I've just read that the extended FOTR & TTT will be shown in a nearby cinema before ROTK - so today has been a very good day:)

Sheryl-
Man, I had problems watching parts of TTT because my eyes would tear up - sounds like I'm not going to be able to see ROTK at all!

I am SO going to go into the Kleenex Concession business for this movie!;)

I am SO going to go into the Kleenex Concession business for this movie!;)

Me too :eek:

I have finally had time to download the trailer for ROTK and I am excited/angsty/anxious/frustrated (etc. etc.) ..I want it to be here yesterday..but also tomorrow.

The anticipation is immense, but on the other hand, when it is here, there is a sense of let down because it is the final chapter in the trilogy.....:( :( :(

RL keeps intruding.....

this week's drama is trying to get a new computer that actually works ( all part of the effective working practice..erm)..it's only taken four days but I now have a new computer (if you ignore the fact that its supposed to have a CDRW drive not a CD drive) and I loaded my favourite LOTR desktop and screensaver and what happens???? the operations manager walks in to see LOTR rather than the hospital logo...aaaaagh :o
( and that's not even acknowledging all the gary larson cartoons and LOTR pics stuck on the walls around the desk- did he question my sanity???)


back to the trailer -equal time appears to be given to frodo and aragon... is that a good omen???

viola


p.s. the DVD mags are out in the UK- TTT SE is being touted as the DVD of the year -five stars for the movie and five stars for the extras...and being hailed as the new standard for DVD extras!!!

go PJ and New Line!!

From Viola Took:
trailer -equal time appears to be given to frodo and aragon... is that a good omen???

YESSSSS !! Because, as Hobmom says (welcome back, Hobmom!):

our boy's Oscar chances just sky-rocketed

YESSSSS again :) :) :)

From Mariole:
It's delightful that he has something he loves so much to invest his money in

Yes, isn't it? Now it's just up to us to buy everything the label puts out to make sure it's viable :eek: Wouldn't want our boy to starve, now would we? ;)

From honeyelf:
I love that she swoons over Elijah as much as we all do!

Me too. That's why I started collecting ecstatic quotes about him back in about February 2002. They seemed to confirm that he was real and not just a figment of my over-active imagination. That there is such a person as Elijah, with all his beauty and charm and grace and wisdom, still seems to me almost too exciting to contemplate (God loves us and wants us to be happy all right!). So here goes with just a few of the best reviews:

Elijah Wood, who was one of the most otherworldly beautiful children ever to appear on the screen, managed to survive adolescence to capture a look of a somewhat disillusioned seraph in adulthood. He was born to play Frodo Baggins, and indeed, carries much of the film's emotions in his improbably large and expressive eyes. -- Jill Cozzi in Cozzi fan tutti celluloid musings

In the end, it all comes back to one performance… Frodo. Elijah Wood is the heart and soul of this film. Without his performance, the film just wouldn't have worked. You need to BELIEVE in his innocence, bravery, fear, apprehension, and guilt. You need to understand and empathize with every emotion Frodo has. Somehow, Elijah does it. He makes you care and he makes you understand. That's the mark of a truly great actor. -- Kerouac, DVD Dungeon

But chief must be Wood whose performance is really amazing. It's partly the way he looks. Another reviewer has compared him to a William Blake drawing and because that seems so true I repeat it here. Innocence and experience battle in him. What's also great is the weight he suggests, the sorrow for a task he can hardly bear to continue and the way he registers his insight into the baleful power of the ring which he carries. -- The Dominion

Elijah Wood is, simply, beautiful as Frodo Baggins, down to his dirty fingernails (how Jackson made the 5- foot- 7- ish Wood look utterly convincingly 3- foot- hobbitish is beyond my understanding of special effects). Of course, the happy things are here to be tainted by darkness. Wood understands the particular anguish of someone who's known only cheerful, earthy hedonism (easygoing hobbits love the good life) thrust into danger beyond his comprehension, never more so than when he comes under physical attack from forces of evil -- his heartrending screams of genuine terror and pain seem to encompass much more than mere physical injury but also a despair against the psychic affront to his sensibilities. This kind of thing is not supposed to happen to a nice hobbit. –- Flick Filosopher

Frodo's relationship with The Ring is played out with an almost eerie grace by Elijah Wood, who steps up as one of the finest actors of his age working today with this film. As good as he's been in the past, the work he does here is transforming. He is an astonishing avatar for us, the viewer, a hero worth following. Much of the film is defined in the way he interacts with the rest of the cast, and it's the support they offer to Wood that makes each of them great in their own way. ……….
And at the end of the film, there is a moment between Sam and Frodo that convinces me we are going to see them rewarded with Oscars in 2003 as Best Actor and Best Supporting. I had lunch with Sean and Elijah about two weeks after they returned to the U.S. after shooting the movie. It was me, Mongo, Harry, and Sam and Frodo. Sitting at that table, what I saw was a pair of tight friends, guys who had shared some amazing adventure and had reached that point where they had a private language. They spoke about the unique nature of the shoot, and they spoke in glowing terms about the rest of the cast and Jackson in particular. I've talked to a lot of actors over the years, but I don't think I've ever seen anything like the obvious love and faith they felt towards these films, and seeing the final result here, I can understand why. – Moriarty, AICN

Originally posted by serena
Yes, isn't it? Now it's just up to us to buy everything the label puts out to make sure it's viable :eek: Wouldn't want our boy to starve, now would we? ;)
We need to make sure he builds up enough capital to take the next step and start his movie production company--then we can start sending those screenplays ;) :cool: .

Thanks for the "ecstatic quotes"-- :) . The Flick Filosopher one was completely new to me. Exactly my reaction to Frolijah's screams! The first time I saw him attacked by the WiKi, I felt more than thought, "That's what it would feel like to get stabbed!" Completely different from the macho action-hero type character who doesn't seem to feel it when he gets shot a half-dozen times :rolleyes: .

--And I do like seeing from those reviews that there are some people with Y chromosomes out there who recognize and appreciate gifted acting :) .

Serena - the ecstacies are wonderful! I'd never seen any of them before so am most thankful, especially:Innocence and experience battle in him. What's also great is the weight he suggests, the sorrow for a task he can hardly bear to continue and the way he registers his insight into the baleful power of the ring which he carries.ANDHe is an astonishing avatar for us, the viewer, a hero worth following. Much of the film is defined in the way he interacts with the rest of the cast, and it's the support they offer to Wood that makes each of them great in their own way. Best of all, most of the comments seem like they were written after the authors saw the Third movie - and they're describing Elijah's performance as the core! (hope hope hope)

Glad no more references to M. Hammel appeared. Was amazed to see the comparison even in that excellent review above. Not only are Hammel and Elwood not in the same league (Hammel's conventional cute can't compare with Elijah's beauty and talent), but neither do Frodo and Luke have a thing in common! Luke S. is hardly a demanding part, even when not compared to Frodo, a character which I think many would have thought inimitable. Speaking of challenging roles, a strong 'Ice Storm' image presented itself today (no reason) and I thought how superbly Elijah portrayed that unusual young character - sensitive, lonely, too smart and curious to be particularly innocent (wouldn't have been virginal for much longer, if he'd had the time) - and so different from Frodo to whom, I'm quite convinced by now, no other actor could have done justice.

Possible book spoiler -

With all the ROTK news about these days, doubts about surviving this final film in one piece are slowly replacing doubts about the film, which is a good thing :). Even if the actuality is otherwise, I'd choose this kind of anticipation. The book's end wrecks me each and every time... and then I consider how Elijah might deliver that tragic "or might have had" where we KNOW Fro is not talking about possesions or position - I already feel the ache of it. If Elijah handles that line (and if they use it) nearly as deftly as "although - I do not know the way" ... I cannot imagine

Aaaah, those reviews are salve to my angst-jittering heart! Thank you, Serena :) !

My favourite is "a look of a somewhat disillusioned seraph in adulthood" - yes, angels living on earth (or Middle-Earth) may have good reasons to be disillusioned sometimes. :rolleyes:

Let's face the last part of the trilogy with foolhardy (i.e. tollkühn) courage and hope! ;)

Wood understands the particular anguish of someone who's known only cheerful, earthy hedonism (easygoing hobbits love the good life) thrust into danger beyond his comprehension, never more so than when he comes under physical attack from forces of evil -- his heartrending screams of genuine terror and pain seem to encompass much more than mere physical injury but also a despair against the psychic affront to his sensibilities. This kind of thing is not supposed to happen to a nice hobbit

Thanks for posting those ecstatic reviews, Serena. And TG, I so agree with you about the Flick Filosopher review which I hadn't seen before either. The above quote just encapsulates for me what is so heartachingly sad about the hobbits' plight. They are such comfort-loving, home-loving creatures that for such a thing to happen to one of them is horror unimagined. In normal circumstances they would have been enjoying a drink & a singsong together in The Green Dragon, or Frodo may have been having a night in at Bag End with Bilbo, reading a book in front of the fire - "the psychic affront to his sensibilities" says it perfectly, and Elijah has captured it perfectly- and the reaction of the other hobbits when they realise what has happened to their friend is also brilliant. But what really drives the horror of the Weathertop scene home for me is Frodo calling for Gandalf as Aragorn carries him - that one anguished cry conveys so much - terror, despair, disbelief - it just sets the seal on it.


To think that I may spend the next year or so in Frolijah induced tears makes me happier than a clam!

Me too Hobmom, though I fear I'm in danger of drowning before I even get to see the film - what with actually reading ROTK right now, seeing the recent pics of poor Frodo & Sam and thinking about Elijah sobbing in the cinema (hope someone gave him a cuddle!).

Shireling, Tgshaw - Much appreciate your comments on Elijah's screaming anguish (at the knifing and G's fall). I'd been a bit squeemish about such overt expression but after reading your takes on it, I begin to feel otherwise (and look forward to watching these scenes again with your words in mind).

An encouraging thought -
Lately have been pondering the final state of Frodo's will and how Elijah may interpret this. In the past he's used several words to describe Frodo's deteriorated condition that have disturbed me, usually because they're accompanied by 'totally' (as in totally corrupted, though I'm not sure he's ever used that pair). But the important aspect of Frodo's condition is that he is broken, not blackened. The ROTK shots we've seen suggest that Elijah understands that very well - as he would! The latest portrayals show struggle and suffering, not the dazed ring-besotted lust that was so horrifying in TTT. Regardless of how 'totally' he's hurt, we know Frodo's soul is alive enough for him to embark for the havens and bid his friends a loving farewell.

Sorry, nothing really new here, just ruminating on a beloved subject. (And, umm, did I mention 'besotted'? Wouldn't want to turn this into a support group or anything :rolleyes: but yesterday while trying to get the technical skinny on a product I'm supposed to be writing about at work, instead of the engineer I was talking to, all I could see was a dying angel upon an ash-blackened plain - and that wasn't the first time...)

Serena-
Yes, isn't it? Now it's just up to us to buy everything the label puts out to make sure it's viable Wouldn't want our boy to starve, now would we?

Already planning on pre-ordering everything he puts out as soon as Amazon announces it.:D

And Serena, maybe you should repost what you said a few weeks back about positive thinking in regards to how great ROTK and Elijah IS going to be and how he definitely IS going to win his first Oscar for Frodo Baggins.

I think you and I are the only ones just brimming with optimism about the film's and Elijah's chances. And optimism is much more fun than the reverse.

We know how great Elijah is and I do think this is the year he and PJ get the recognition they deserve.

Serena, once again I am blowing hearts of love in your direction. Those reviews!! Ah, I'm devastated with beauty and appreciation. Thank you! :k

I couldn't help it. I started rereading Lord of the Rings from the beginning again. It's so odd -- this is the first time that I've done that since seeing the original movie (I've mostly read ahead or reread specific parts). Now I'm finding this weird experience of the movie superimposing itself over the book. I've got an ongoing mental prattle saying things like, "Oh, yes, now Peter Jackson lifted this line here and put it into the Gandalf expository scene. Interesting -- how did Philippa or Fran happen to choose just that particular one and have it so perfectly fit? Ah, now Elijah delivered the line this way..." etc. Somewhat distracting, like trying to read with a movie going on at the same time. I wonder if this will fade over time, and the movie and book experience separate again into their similar yet separate works of art?

Hobmom, to your point about Oscars: TORn posted a link to this article about Oscar positioning. It's a bit disillusioning, but terribly interesting, to read about the behind-the-scenes jockeying that is going on in quest of the Oscar cup. However mundane the actual politics of pursuing the Oscar may be, it does seem to bode well for ROTK's (and let me add Elijah's) chances:

http://www.sunspot.net/features/bal-artslife-oscars-dominance06,0,2725334.story?coll=bal-features-specials

from Shireling
But what really drives the horror of the Weathertop scene home for me is Frodo calling for Gandalf as Aragorn carries him - that one anguished cry conveys so much - terror, despair, disbelief - it just sets the seal on it.
Oh, yes, Shireling, the anguish and resonance in that cry gets me every time. And the reverb echoing into the deadly, hammering pulse of Saruman's fortress -- luscious! I am eagerly awaiting having my heart torn out and served to me for lunch, over and over again, once ROTK is released.

from naiad
all I could see was a dying angel upon an ash-blackened plain
*Sobs!*

Originally posted by shireling
They are such comfort-loving, home-loving creatures that for such a thing to happen to one of them is horror unimagined. In normal circumstances they would have been enjoying a drink & a singsong together in The Green Dragon, or Frodo may have been having a night in at Bag End with Bilbo, reading a book in front of the fire -
The hobbits are the "civilians" in the Fellowship, or maybe the equivalent of young conscripted soldiers, as opposed to the other members who are trained warriors or people with a "military career". Since we see the story primarily through the hobbits' eyes, we can really feel that with them.

Reminds me a bit--okay, stay with me here :o --of many (not all by any means) of Alfred Hitchcock's movies and TV shows. The [i]scariest thing about them for me when I was a kid was that these things were happening to ordinary people who just got thrown into these situations without asking for it. Made me feel very vulnerable--and the hobbits certainly are that. But, usually, the ordinary people in Hitchcock's movies rise to the occasion, and the hobbits do that, too. Funny that one of the reviewers Serena posted said Elijah wouldn't be able to play "everyman" roles a la Tom Hanks and Jimmy Stewart, because his looks are too unusual. Funny because I think some of the characters those two actors have played would have been great for Elijah. Jimmy Stewart's includes the Hitchcock movie that probably follows that "everyman" persona the best--The Man Who Knew Too Much. And if they don't let Sean sing "In Western Lands" in RotK, they could bring him in for "Que sera, sera" :p , since the situations are somewhat similar :rolleyes: .

Well, that got a bit away from hobbits :) --but not from Elijah. One role I would absolutely l-o-v-e to see EJW in is Jimmy Stewart's in Harvey! Just from the character's name, you know it's fate :D , and Elijah's comedic style is made for it. Hmmm... mixed feelings on whether Bruce Willis should play Harvey if Elwood were to play Elwood (P. Dowd). Even if they used a computer-generated Harvey, it would be a great inside joke for EJW fans if BW did the voice :D :D ! And IMVHO it's time for a remake of that movie, with more modern sensibilities. If I had several million dollars lying around... :p


Okay, end of digression :o and back to suffering hobbits--

...But what really drives the horror of the Weathertop scene home for me is Frodo calling for Gandalf as Aragorn carries him - that one anguished cry conveys so much - terror, despair, disbelief - it just sets the seal on it.
I'm not absolutely sure (and my VHS of the movie died awhile back :( ), but IIRC that's one of PJ's "homages" to the Bakshi movie. There are a few moments scattered throughout FotR that are pulled directly from Bakshi, and I do think that's one of them. That's not as odd as it might sound--it was seeing Bakshi's movie that led PJ to read LotR for the first time.


RotK book spoilers to end of post
[naiad--Do you think maybe your last paragraph should be spoiler labeled? Edit: Oops! second-to-last paragraph. Either I miscounted or you added one after I first read it ;) ]






From naiad
In the past he's used several words to describe Frodo's deteriorated condition that have disturbed me, usually because they're accompanied by 'totally' (as in totally corrupted, though I'm not sure he's ever used that pair)...
Of course, coming from someone Elijah's age--especially a Californian--"totally" doesn't always mean totally, if you know what I mean ;) .

But the important aspect of Frodo's condition is that he is broken, not blackened. The ROTK shots we've seen suggest that Elijah understands that very well - as he would!
Something that made me optimistic along this line was the recent interview where Elijah said that Frodo (and the other three hobbits) started out innocent and naive, but that they lose that quality because of the experiences they go through. Elijah said, "It could be argued that they're better off for that. It could be argued that Frodo's better off because of it." (That quote's from memory so is probably not exact.) I think that's a terribly important realization on his part--that Frodo sailing to the Undying Lands isn't an unmitigated tragedy. He's sailing to the Undying Lands, FES! He's grown beyond what Middle-earth can give him. The ending of LotR is bittersweet, not despairing.

I've been in an overwhelmed state of anticipation lately--so steeped in expectation --that I can only watch and not talk.

SPOILER?

Okay, last week somewhere I read PJ talking about this movie all coming down to forgiveness and mercy. Where was that??? Do you know?? Is that spoilerish??

BUT--I really really really think that this is going to be Frodo's (Elijah's) movie. They have been keeping it slightly quiet so we can all be knocked in the chest. But the signs are there. We are all supposed to go in thinking it is about the KING. But Elijah is going to break EVERYONE' hearts. I know it. ....And that is the intention. They want to spring Frodo on us. Even those of us who know....

So I have wondered if I would be a little immune having imagined it all so much--but then I read on one of the other threads about the music. Music ...oh yeah, I forgot. Sing something plaintive at the ....

SPOILER****


















well--I still better not say it. But the ending place.....you know....























End Spoiler****





and that will clinch it. Our boy will certainly be a contender. Don't you think?

said by Hobmom
And Serena, maybe you should repost what you said a few weeks back about positive thinking in regards to how great ROTK and Elijah IS going to be and how he definitely IS going to win his first Oscar for Frodo Baggins

Yeah, well I think it's definately not out of the question[

Think about this: Consider the family that Frodo comes from, the Brandybucks (his mother) has wanderlust. blibo is restless and knowledgable, so how NORMAL is Frodo?

Is it any big mystery that he inherited the Ring, and now he has to get rid of it? Not because of his goodness does this happen, all by itself, it is also blended into Gentics, as in a nutty Family. So there!

LOL.

naiad wrote:
doubts about surviving this final film in one piece are slowly replacing doubts about the film, which is a good thing

and

all I could see was a dying angel upon an ash-blackened plain


hobmom wrote:
optimism is much more fun than the reverse

naiad, that is an exquisite and heartbreaking image. I too have doubts about surviving the film -- all the more so since it seems we actually CAN get tickets online to see it at the Embassy in Wellington (way after the première, needless to say, but I'll try to book the seat Elijah sat in :D ) - just received a very encouraging email from NZ. I just wish my most LOTR-receptive/obsessive friends were going to be with me there -- but you can't have everything.

TORN reports that Sky TV is planning a 90-minute première special from Wellington on 1 December, live (?) on its Sky Movies channel (which one, I wonder?). Will have to track down friend with Sky Movies subscription! Will they include close-ups of a tear-streaked Elwood emerging from the cinema after the showing ....? Will he have hair? (Oh, the anguish even at this stage!)

But back to the optimism question. Even I have to admit I had a month or so of despondency when all Elwood's films seemed to be falling through or bombing and all the Oscar talk seemed to be about Viggo and Sean (much as I love them both). But all that (and here we are back at the quantum paradox) is in the mind of the observer (or in the eye of the beholder - take your pick). And it seems that is true not just figuratively, but literally. "Conventional" science and spiritual wisdom now seem to concur on this point! I have two amazing books, from quite different sources, that say essentially the same thing in crystal-clear terms: that we create our own reality. (In other words, we drive the universe through quantum effects - no, they don't say that in so many words, but that's the implication.) Here is a small extract from one of them:

In simple terms, think of what you want and nothing else! ....When you think of anything you want, the Universe instantly starts bringing it to you in the way in which you think of that thing. By becoming aware of your judgments, prejudices, fears, and limited thoughts around any subject, you will learn to transform them to a higher expression.
What stops most of you from getting what you want is that when different aspects of the subject come up for review, you get discouraged. There is no need for this. The wonderful thing about understanding that you create your own reality is that you can clearly see where you are placing your thoughts by what manifests in your life.
.... As different aspects of the subject come up for review, most of you focus on the negative or lack side of the subject. .... The Universe responds to your thinking. ... All thought is creative, and each new thought that you have launches a new creation in your life. When you start to think of the reasons you can't have something, that also goes forth as a creation and counteracts the previous thought of creating what you want.
... Everything is energy and all energy is moulded by thought. In addition to thought, you have another very powerful ally, which is emotion. ... When it comes to drawing to you what you do not want, worry, dread and fear are also powerful creators.
.... Desire is the driving force behind creation.

And so on. It's actually quite amazing how the whole tenor of thought around ROTK and the Oscar question has (or at least seems to me to have) changed over the past couple of months. I think we have every reason to continue being optimistic about the film: apparently it isn't finished even yet, which shows just how seriously it is being taken. Apparently EW spent up to 13 hours a day in front of the cameras during the "pickups" this summer. I'm sure PJ has picked up the feedback about Frodo's role (I'm sure he's well aware of its importance anyway) and will return the emotional focus to Frodo in the final film.

About thoughts creating reality: the entire extraordinary movie trilogy and the tidal wave it has unleashed on popular culture - well, on pretty much the whole world - sprang from one thought of PJ's one Sunday morning in, er, 1995, was it? To say nothing of the initial thought Tolkien had that culminated in The Lord of the Rings. Those guys never gave way to doubts, even if they had them; the vision was by far the stronger force. Great oaks from little acorns indeed.

One last thing (will have to leave the next few reviews to another post - don't want to hog this thread too much!): the Oscars in the past have been highly politically motivated and have too often borne no relation to actual merit. (One aspect of this is that there have to be four, and only four, gender-related actor awards, regardless of who actually deserves one and whether there really is anyone deserving in that category.) But the more people think about the defects in the Oscar system, the more entrenched the defects will become. They CAN be changed! So let's change them this time. LOTR is a ground-breaking enterprise that can greak new ground even here.

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
Think about this: Consider the family that Frodo comes from, the Brandybucks (his mother) has wanderlust. blibo is restless and knowledgable, so how NORMAL is Frodo?

Is it any big mystery that he inherited the Ring, and now he has to get rid of it? Not because of his goodness does this happen, all by itself, it is also blended into Gentics, as in a nutty Family. So there!

LOL.
Nothing in Tolkien's stories happens "all by itself"--IMHO that's one of his main concepts. Everything works together.

It took me a minute to remember where this whole subject had come up lately--it's esgoroth's thread in the RotK forum about her "Pippin Theory"--which I won't go into here :) . The info that follows in this paragraph is from The Hobbit, but it's all in the first few pages so I won't label it as a spoiler; anyone who reads the book will come across it immediately, before the actual story even starts. In those pages, JRRT talks a lot about Bilbo's "Baggins side" and his "Took side". The "Took side" is the one that's adventurous, poetic, etc. By the time of Bilbo's adventure (instigated, of course, by Gandalf, as we know from the FotR movie: "If you're referring to that incident with the dragon..." ;) ), Gandalf has had a special interest in the descendants of the Old Took for years. Probably because of the rumored bit of "fairy blood" in the family. But the Baggins side is important, too, adding groundedness and good common hobbit-sense.

Descendants of the Old Took include Pippin, Merry, Bilbo, and Frodo. (Yeah, I admit :o , Tolkien-geek time. I've studied the family trees.) Frodo also has that "grounded" Baggins side to his personality, which Pippin and Merry don't--as Sam says in the movie, "Leave it to a Brandybuck and a Took!" :) In Tolkien's characters, these family connections are very important in shaping personality--more so than in the "real world" IMHO.

So, no, Frodo's not a NORMAL :p hobbit at all. The fact that the first thing we see him doing in the movie is reading is a tip-off there. And the comments in the SE about Bilbo being "cracked" and Frodo "cracking" are straight from the LotR book (first couple of pages, again). Gandalf considers Frodo "the best hobbit in the Shire," and I have suspicions Gandalf supported Bilbo's idea of adopting Frodo so the Ring would go to him instead of to Lotho Sackville-Baggins (whom we see in the FotR SE--lovely chap :p ). Frodo has had Bilbo as a mentor and surrogate parent, so he knows about a lot of things a "normal" hobbit wouldn't (such as the Valar and Middle-earth history), and has also been influenced by a hobbit who's good and generous and who loves him deeply. And I even expect that losing his parents suddenly when he was 11 or 12 added a depth to him that most hobbits wouldn't have.

So, all these things come together to "make" Frodo. There's literally no other hobbit like him, but yet he has the basic hobbit nature that makes him more resistant to the evil of the Ring.

---------

In the movies we're not told any of this background, except for a little bit in the FotR SE. But IMVHO, it's all still there, affecting the Frodo we meet in the movies who (IMVVHO--not everyone agrees) is very much like book-Frodo, except for being younger and less experienced. The script was written by people who did know Frodo's background, and Elijah "met" Frodo through the script. Even if Elijah didn't personally know all of the character's background (and I bet he learned at least some of it while developing the character), I think he demonstrates a pretty good sense of what kind of hobbit developed from everything that went into "making" Frodo.

Desire is the driving force behind creation. A fascinating - and scary - concept, Serena. Thanks for the excerpt. In so far as it applies to 'little' matters like oscars, I must not only send out positive thoughts about Elijah's deserving the prize but need to quell my lurking fear that someone other than Elijah might be awarded. It would be better if no actor from the Trilogy was singled out! Except maybe for Sir Ian who has well earned prestige and signority, anyone else topping the lead hero could only be a slap in the face to EW. Worst of all would be if Sean A was awarded (as supporting actor, I must assume) and Elijah not - it would be like putting Apostle Peter above his Master, or (Little John above Robin Hood, to be more mundane) which recalls the who's the real hero question. All that aside, how exciting to be planning a trip to NZ - and to think of sitting in EW's seat :D. To say nothing of the initial thought Tolkien had that culminated in The Lord of the Rings As in, "In a hole in the ground lived a hobbit," scrawled on a scrap of paper? (though as we all know, it really began before even that...)Nothing in Tolkien's stories happens "all by itself"--IMHO that's one of his main concepts. Everything works together. Once again, I thank you for nailing it, Tg.

Alyon - I share your angst and enthusiasm :k .

Originally posted by naiad
Worst of all would be if Sean A was awarded (as supporting actor, I must assume) and Elijah not - it would be like putting Apostle Peter above his Master, or (Little John above Robin Hood, to be more mundane) which recalls the who's the real hero question.

I hesitate to say the following :o but I'm going to say it anyway. :D

(((naiad)))

While Frodo is for me the central protagonist of LOTR, I do regard him and Sam as a 'team effort', and always have done. Frodo is my favourite, but I've never regarded him as better than Sam (or vice versa). They are both pure in heart, but in different ways. Frodo sees a lot more than Sam does, of course: he was always set apart from the outset. But Sam's selfless, unconditional love adds a wonderful warmth to the white-hot flame of Frodo's sacrificial spirit.

I was extremely impressed with Sean Astin's acting in TTT - his acting, I stress, not PJ's screenplay: I dislike Sam's UN speech. I think Sean A would fully deserve a nomination ... Although of course I would feel very sad for EJW (especially if his work as Frodo in ROTK turns out to be the best in the film trilogy). It would be impossible not to feel that EJW the actor AND the character of Frodo had both been 'shafted'.

In an ideal world, both EJW and SA would share equal acting honours for their 'Frodo' and 'Sam.' The Academy however may well think EJW had his shot two years ago.

I'm not convinced that PJ does regard Frodo as the hero of this story. I love EJW's Frodo - particularly in TTT, actually, as the story becomes darker and Frodo faces his inner battle - but PJ's treatment of Frodo's character has, for me, missed a few crucial beats.

PJ says - one one of the FOTR SE DVD's, I think - "The hero of the LOTR is definitely Frodo Baggins - he is the character who in the end ultimately has to make the greatest sacrifice."

But then PJ and crew contradict themselves quite a bit. ;)

So did JRRT, for that matter. ;)

I was poleaxed by what was done to Frodo in FOTR but have learned to live with it (Oh Eru, LISTEN to me! :rolleyes: ) and I love the film now.

I'm just going to be prepared not to be blown away, in case I'm not. that stood me in good stead for TTT.

(((((Naiaid))))) (((((Pearl)))))

I'm not going to say anything about the "who's the hero?" thing because I've said it all before! And I know it doesn't matter who is to many people. It's not either/or, it's F AND S. So even if PJ blatantly and explicitly builds up another as the obvious hero at the expense of Frodo, I will handle it.

Oh yes, I will! ;)

(Tricky subject and I'm too tired to be coherent about it).

I'm just going to be prepared not to be blown away, in case I'm not. that stood me in good stead for TTT.

No, no, Niphy! You just destroyed the universe!

LOL! Just kidding! ;)

I fully expect to be completely blown away. And I refuse to think any other way. Is that good enough, Serena?

Really I'm not so sure about the metaphysical side of everything Serena posted from that interesting book but I DO feel that thinking in a positive way about the films and Elijah's getting his Oscar is much more enjoyable than always expecting to be let down.

In spite of the few bits in the films that I might have done differently.. Arwen:rolleyes: .... Sam's UN speech :rolleyes: ...the first two films have blown me completely away and I have every reason to be convinced ROTK is going to quite enjoyably slay me! Or at least certainly reduce me to a happy puddle of angst-filled tears.

And from all the indications I DO feel Elijah really stands a very good chance of at least an Oscar nomination this time around.

Pearl wrote:'
The Academy however may well think EJW had his shot two years ago

Why? Not only was he not nominated two years ago; he wasn't even invited to the ceremony! He went as PJ's guest.

naiad wrote:
I must not only send out positive thoughts about Elijah's deserving the prize but need to quell my lurking fear hobmom wrote:
I fully expect to be completely blown away. And I refuse to think any other way. Is that good enough, Serena?

((((naiad)))) ((((hobmom)))) yesssss!

I hope it's as significant as I think it is that PJ was heard to voice his sadness recently at having filmed Elijah Wood as Frodo for the last time, and Viggo as Aragorn. Those were the two he mentioned, and in that order.
Of course Frodo and Sam are a team; of course Sean Astin's acting was excellent in TTT (as was Elijah's). Awards for both would obviously be the ideal.
Yet PJ has also been heard to say that some of the audience may see Sam rather than Frodo as the hero in ROTK -- I assume because they will not understand the sacrifice Frodo has had to make and the nature of the burden he alone carries. The people PJ has in mind there are presumably the same ones who dismissed Elijah's Frodo as being too "girly" in FOTR (I admit the Arwen rescue and the sword-dropping didn't exactly help there, even though I think I understand why those things were done) and were unable (afraid?) to appreciate the subtlety and depth of EW's acting, let alone the point of the story, preferring the knee-jerk I'm-so-tough reaction of seeing Frolijah as a wimp. As far as sacrifice is concerned, I'd be happy to see EW's destiny diverge just a little from Frodo's after the coming movie!

So I think it's time for some more ecstatic reviews, most even with Y chromosomes, to put the record a bit straighter (some may well have been seen before, as they appear on other websites):

The acting in this movie should not, under any circumstances, be discredited by the fact that most people see this as an action movie. These are strong performances all around. Elijah Wood and Ian McKellen stand out in my mind as the two actors that made this whole thing work. Elijah plays Frodo as a timid hero, one who is carrying out the task because he feels it must be done, not because he wants to do it. This is exactly how the part of Frodo should be played and Elijah makes it happen. No longer shall he be known as the kid who did Flipper with Crocodile Dundee. No, from now on he is Frodo Baggins. -- Jakob Brzovic, Jakeopolis

[FOTR] wears its earnestness, and its heart, on its muddy blood-streaked sleeve....With his preternaturally wide eyes, his strong neck, and his dirt-caked fingernails, Wood makes an ideal hobbit hero, at once ethereal, determined, and funky. -- David Ansen, Newsweek

Elijah Wood's Frodo holds the camera captivated in just about every one of his scenes. He shows equal parts boyishness and gravity. His face, all immense eyes, still glows with youthful innocence, but there's also something fearfully mature about it: If you've read the books, you'll see how that look points the way to the darker, more devastating turns this story will take from here. -- Stephanie Zacharek, Salon Arts & Entertainment

I was ecstatic when I heard that Elijah Wood signed on to play Frodo. No other actor in his age group could be more believable taking on the weight of Middle-earth, yet still managing to come across as one of the most heroic, yet innocent-looking shlubs the screen has ever seen. The monumental task that Frodo must bear is one that no one–Hobbit, Man, Elf, or Dwarf–should have to endure. Just one look into Elijah’s strikingly blue eyes shows that this is one hero that we, the audience, will be rooting for until the very end. Without his kind soul and unsurpassed courage, all would be lost. -- Joe Hallenbeck, AICN

First there's Elijah Wood's Frodo, the hobbit who inherits the Ring and who is charged with its destruction. With his elfin features and huge blue eyes, Wood absolutely looks the part (extremely clever photography that fiddles with perspective reduces the hobbits to half the size of humans). What's unexpected is how well this 20-year-old actor grasps Frodo's fear and resolution. Imagine being told you're on a suicide mission upon which the fate of the world depends; Wood nails that dilemma with a performance tinged with sadness and regret. He's an unlikely hero but all the more impressive for his essential gentleness. -- Kansas City Star

Elijah Wood ... is both robust and plangent, pulling off a daunting feat with ease --making the education of a naif as dynamic as it is rending....When Frodo starts to put on the Ring because he fears a looming Ringwraith--an act that attracts the Ringwraith even more --it's a moment of sublime terror. It's also an aesthetic victory for Jackson and his collaborators...and of course for actor Wood, who brings vitality to despair. -- Michael Sragow, sunspot.net

and finally:

Elijah Wood as Frodo lends fresh luster to the term "beautiful youth." His transparent and expressive Caravaggio face, the visual equivalent of the Vienna Boys Choir, flits like an androgynous angel between human and Hobbit, man and child, male and female. -- Marian Kester Coombs, The Washington Times, 01-20-2002

Serena - Those quotes are SO heartening (again, have seen none of them before). Where would we be without you?

Re:Frodo and Sam are a teamYes, but Frodo's... harder. (And I don't mean it THAT way.) He's more difficult to fathom, his plight is more difficult to endure as it affects him on many levels (not only physical but intellectual, emotional, and spiritual). All of which makes Frodo exceptionally difficult to render as an actor. You know where I'm going from there, so will leave it at that. For this same reason, I think it no drawback if EW becomes associated with Frodo professionally - in fact I can think of no better credential. Such reviews as, He shows parts boyishness and gravity. His face, all immense eyes, still glows with youthful innocence, but there's also something fearfully mature about it: If you've read the books, you'll see how that look points the way to the darker, more devastating turns this story will take from here apply exclusively to Elijah as Frodo but imply incredible range.

Dear Pearl, while I agree that "PJ's treatment of Frodo's character has...missed a few crucial beats", I take comfort from Alyon's paraphrase -somewhere I read PJ talking about this movie all coming down to forgiveness and mercy Let it be so.

At any rate, aside from EW, if I had to choose between Sean A and Viggo's performances, I'd definitely have to back Viggo, again because I think Aragorn's lines, not to mention bearing and physicality of the role were more demanding than Sam's (as Aragorn's a more complex character than Sam, in book or movie) and he did great justice to that.

I hope posting twice here in a day isn't anathema (double-posting), Bridget Chubb? Of course it might be excessive in other ways :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Niphredil
So even if PJ blatantly and explicitly builds up another as the obvious hero at the expense of Frodo, I will handle it.

*Coughs*

Darlin', I'm going to hold you to that. ;)

((((Niphy)))) :k

Oscars 2002
I have a badly defective memory. :eek:

Serena: you're a lot more forgiving of the Arwen rescue thing and the sword-dropping thing than I will ever be. :)

((((serena)))) for the lovely quotes!

I’ve got tickets!! (kuduk does a happy dance) On Friday, December 5 at 8 pm I’ll be seeing Fellowship's EE on Imax and Friday, December 12 at 8 pm, Two Towers EE on Imax and (hopefully) will see ROTK December 19. I keep looking for when tickets will be available here. Trilogy Tuesday’s already sold out but I couldn’t have made it anyway. Besides I can't imagine being in any kind of shape to work the next day if I see it the night before.
Anybody here going to the Trilogy?

Very slightly ROTK spoilerish to end:





naiad------“or might have had” (sob!!)

I found what tg once wrote about being sad the book’s over but being amazingly swept right back into the world of Middle-Earth when re-reading so true. I’ve been doing the “DVD version“, that is reading my favorite parts (Choices--I have a hard time remembering that‘s TTT, CU, Mordor, Houses of Healing, Grey Havens) lately. Funny how those are the main parts I’m looking forward to in the movie. Well those and Eowyn and Denethor and Pippin....

Originally posted by naiad
At any rate, aside from EW, if I had to choose between Sean A and Viggo's performances, I'd definitely have to back Viggo, again because I think Aragorn's lines, not to mention bearing and physicality of the role were more demanding Sam's (as Aragorn's a more complex character than Sam, in book or movie) and he did great justice to that.

I wouldn't agree with that. I definitely think Sam's character is as complex as Aragorn's (if not more so), and was a demanding part to play (which Sean did a great job at). And while I agree that Aragorn has had a more physical role than Sam so far...well, just think of what Sam has to do in December!!:eek:

Not that I'm biased, or anything.;)

And no, posting twice a day isn't double-posting. Double posting only refers to posting twice in a row, with no posts in between.:)

I heard that it was Fate.His mother chose to put him in acting to take care of his enormous energy.

I'm curious, did he try sports and not like it? It seems to make MORE sense that way. LOL.

Also is Frodo considered a brooder? Book version I mean. Is he an intense Parent type (Saturnine) or is he more Pleasure Loving, and at at the same time Down to Earth (Venusian) type? I'm curious. LOL.

Originally posted by Pearl
In an ideal world, both EJW and SA would share equal acting honours for their 'Frodo' and 'Sam.' The Academy however may well think EJW had his shot two years ago.

Pearl, I totally agree. EW's "shot" will most likely not be repeated, and the Academy would want his award to be a cumulative effort over time (though I would be extremely pleased if his acting in ROTK did put him over the top and they reconsidered). Provided EW continues to get choice parts in the future, having played Frodo so well would serve to bolster him toward an award at another time. Sean on the other hand is a child of the Academy, and they like nothing better than giving an Oscar to one of their own, provided PJ has groomed him for it. I think Sean is quite capable of taking it home. An Oscar with two handles for two people would be even better. I'll know more after I've seen the advanced screening of ROTK on December 4th (then promptly have to put my lips under lock and key in the main threads).

Wonderful posts, ladies.

Serena - Thanks so much for reminding us all of those FOTR reviews. I have a few of those saved, but there were some I hadn't seen before. I love reading such positive Frodo/Elijah reviews. More please. :)

Hobmom - I'm feeling optimistic about ROTK - but I daren't think about the Oscars and how bad I'll feel for him if Elijah is ignored!

Nice to see you again, Niphredil, and a belated welcome to Lilly.

Just popped in to link to this interesting recent interview with Elijah and Sean:


CONTAINS ROTK SPOILERS!!!


http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1068423266


Tg - I spent a couple of hours - again - browsing frodolivesin.us a few days ago. I really enjoy going there - I also loved the Nat/Forever Young section. Must get that one on DVD, but it will have to wait until a certain extended DVD has been purchased!

Bye.

Oh, my, that interview with Sean and Elijah for which Blossom posted the link is just wonderful! My new sig is coming straight out of that. This is a must read, friends, because it offers MUCHO new information :) (though not, unfortunately, any comment from EW about the Einstein role :( )

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
I heard that it was Fate.His mother chose to put him in acting to take care of his enormous energy.

I'm curious, did he try sports and not like it? It seems to make MORE sense that way. LOL.
It was modeling, actually. And he was six years old, so probably hadn't tried too many things yet :) . I'm guessing Mom knew him well enough to find something he'd take to--maybe he had a little ham in him ;) ? I still think of those early modeling days when I see him in one of those fashion photo shoots actors do occasionally--IMHO he's much better in them than most actors, so maybe Mom was right to see some talent in that area, too.
Also is Frodo considered a brooder? Book version I mean. Is he an intense Parent type (Saturnine) or is he more Pleasure Loving, and at at the same time Down to Earth (Venusian) type? I'm curious. LOL.
I'm not familiar with those types (Venusian is down-to-earth? :D LOL), but back in the Imladris Book Discussion Forum we did Myers-Briggs typing on Frodo and Sam, and Frodo came through as a definite INF (introvert/intuitive[big picture]/feeling), with some disagreement over whether he was a P (better at processing) or a J (better at finalizing). Sam as an ESFJ (extravert/sensate[detail-oriented]/feeling/more attuned to outcome than to process).

After the first movie was released, the same group thought the movie moved them more towards the "middle"--especially in the I/E category (book-Sam seems to process everything out loud--to himself, if there's no one else around :p , while Frodo processes everything interiorly and usually alone; that hasn't been shown as strongly in the movies). Maybe Frodo's less "brooding" in the movies because he's 17 years younger? Book-Frodo at The Party seems more Venusian (if I'm understanding that word correctly :) ) than he does during the rest of the book, when he's middle-aged.

What I thought was most interesting about the entire process was how real JRRT had to have made the characters in order for us to be able to do psychological typing on them!! IMHO, the same would be true for your typing system, if you can categorize them that way. As far as I know, no one's attempted an MMPI ;) which has (IIRC) 600 or 700 questions.

------------
Edit: I wrote the following before reading peaceweaver's post. It is a great article, and the RotK spoilers are fairly well-known already, but...

For those who are avoiding it because of spoilers, here are a few bits of "other news" from it:

Elijah has moved to New York (he bought an apartment there after filming ESOTSM) and, yes, he is riding the subway :p .

His next movie is said to be the "hooligan" one--and the article calls his character a "student journalist," so that may color how he interacts with that subculture.

After that (this is a new one to me!!) he might play the son of a circus strongman :confused: .

No mention of Einstein :( .

He was evidently wearing the CTJ for the interview--which took place while he and Sean and the reporter took a boat ride in Central Park :) . I'm beginning to wonder if he has a closet full of them (the jackets, I mean :p ).


------------

BTW, on Sean and the Oscars--IIRC, he's one of the voters. And he has been nominated before, but as a producer/director (for a short) rather than an actor.

-----------

Blossom--glad you enjoyed your time at frodolivesin.us :) . With so many sites, LJ's, and screencaps around these days, sometimes I wonder if there's a need for it, but as long as people enjoy it, I'll try to keep filling my "niche" (if I can figure out what it is :p ).

After I finish my 7-part non-answer :rolleyes: to "Is Middle-earth Real?" next month, I'm thinking about doing some ramblings that will compare the LotR book and the movies, since RotK will be released by then -- if that would be of interest. Also open to any other suggestions--for screencaps or topics.

Serena, many many thanks for posting those review snippets. I probably read them all way back when, but it's so delicious to revisit them.

What "Times" is the "Times" that published that great article with Elijah and Sean? The NY Times? Since it took place in NY, that would be a good guess, huh?:p

Some idiot article or site I linked to via TORn has "Mystic River" as the current Oscar frontrunner at 6:1 odds, with ROTK second at 8:1. I think I'll just crawl into my hobbithole until the award season is over. Even though I fully recognize that awards are all about politics and the people giving them are worthless self-centered gits, it still gets me all offended and indignant when someone, anyone, doesn't see the obvious films and artists of true worth.

At least it'll all be over by the end of February this year!:rolleyes:

from tgshaw
I'm thinking about doing some ramblings that will compare the LotR book and the movies, since RotK will be released by then -- if that would be of interest.
*waves hand in the air* Me, me! I'd be interested! Seriously, I desperately needed someone to explain to me what the HECKidoodles PJ did to my movie when TTT came out. I was seriously brain damaged by not hearing the "if I found it by the highway" line, and by the time the invented Osgiliath scene rolled around, I was in a coma. My reeling senses were still able to work the Google search engine, thank Eru, and after a few days I tumbled onto your site, tg, and finally landed here. *bliss!* This forus was essential for keeping my head from exploding. Really, that's how important Tolkien's work is to me.

That said, I would love to continue the discussion post-ROTK about the movie Frodo vs. book Frodo. I'd want to explore the movie!Aragorn and movie!Sam adaptations as well, as their players do affect Frodo as we know him quite a bit, with the smirking sons of Gondor somewhere on the list (I think they've been getting a lot of analysis already by the same crowd who was as shell-schocked as I by TT). Your insights, tg, and those of the rest of this community, would be very welcome indeed.

I just wanted to add another quote from that lovely NY Times article, as the topic came up a little while ago:

They [EW and SA] understand that the biggest "bounce" off a movie like this goes to the glamorous actors who have the more classically heroic roles, like the elf archer Bloom, or rugged Viggo Mortensen, who plays Aragorn. Neither seems to mind.
They're bigger men than I am. Well, you know what I mean. :D

*SPOILERy Mystic River stuff*

Per Goldenberry's remark, I saw "Mystic River" and I consider it a good movie. That said, it is so dark and its message is, to me, so depressing, that I can say it is one of those movies that I have no interest in ever seeing again. It wasn't quite as upsetting to me as "Silence of the Lambs" or "Dead Man Walking" (the latter of which so horribly distressed me that I regretted ever setting foot in the theatre), but it is unrelentingly grim. I expect that ROTK will make us cry, but will also give us the gift that Tolkien so uniquely was able to deliver -- the light in the midst of anguish, the knowledge of victory amid the pain. That is why Tolkien's work has been so profoundly moving and enduring. If PJ is able to capture even a dram of it and project it on the screen, ROTK will blow MR's doors off.

Pearl wrote:
Serena: you're a lot more forgiving of the Arwen rescue thing and the sword-dropping thing than I will ever be.

Hmm. I feel compelled to fast-forward part of those scenes even now, so maybe we're not so different, Pearl! ;) I may be totally wrong (if so, I'm sure someone here will put me right!), but I rationalised the Arwen rescue by assuming it would be well nigh impossible to film Frodo convincingly on horseback, given his size (EW's scale double, Kirin, proved terrified of horses: riding one of those would have been a tall order (so to speak) for anyone of that size. Not sure if 3'6 stunt riders of full-size thoroughbreds exist!) -- and so the scriptwriters gave in to the temptation to use that scene to beef up Arwen. The horseback chase scene is exciting in itself and would have been fine if it hadn't made Frodo look such a wimp -- and robbed him of his heroic face-off of the Black Riders.
Weathertop is less explicable. I assume PJ and co were trying to boost the horror of the Nazgul via Frodo's fear and helplessness: if he had faced up to them, they might have seemed less terrifying in general to the cinema audience and their scenes might have lost some tension (OK, it's an inadequate explanation; I'm just trying to explain the inexplicable there! And yes, I too am angry with PJ about that).
Let's hope PJ learnt his lesson from the feedback and allows Frodo some True Grit in the last film :cool:
Hobmom, blossom, kuduk, naiad, thanks for joining me in being doggedly optimistic about it! :k to all.

And kuduk, congrats on your tickets! :) Have just ordered two from NZ -- part of proceeds goes to Wellington charities (good). Probably not EW's own seat, but I expect they'll take that out and display it in a glass case in the Te Papa museum :D .

OK then, here are the very last reviews (anyone who has other good ones, please do post them!):

The film belongs to Wood, who has proven he can carry a film (even at the tender age of 11...remember *Radio Flyer*?) His Frodo is so wrought with emotion and gets kicked around so much, you feel like joining the Fellowship yourself just to help him out." -- hollywood.com

Elijah Wood finally has the recognition he has long deserved—good reviews and a big hit movie. But then, “Frodo Baggins” is a part he seems to have been born to play. With his almost preternaturally large eyes and androgynous beauty, he has always conveyed a sense of wisdom and experience beyond his years. This was true even in his first screen roles, when he was little more than nine or ten years old. With the distinct exception of Ang Lee’s resonant The Ice Storm (1997), young Wood has frequently been better than the pictures he was cast in. – John Teegarden, Audience Magazine

Elijah Wood as Frodo is one of Jackson's great casting achievements among many in this film. Elijah's wide-eyed innocence is used to perfection by Jackson, the sincerity in this character is 100% through and through, this really is Elijah Wood in a wig and fake feet, no acting needed. He is touching in his kindness and bravery, and we can see every emotion in those light blue eyes, Elijah carries his role in this film to perfection, the burden is his, yet we are made to share it with him.
.......
Gandalf takes his deathly fall…and the next clip just had me going … Elijah Wood you acting bastard genius you!!! The look, body language and yell let out by this 20 year old is enough to bring your soul to a standstill .... Frodo Baggins just saw one of his best friends die right before his eyes¡ it truly is one of the best scenes in the film, you just need to SEE it, if only just for that!! -- Xoanon, TORN

The actors seem, not only to play their roles, but they become their characters. Sure their performances are good, but their looks seem to fit their characters, dead on. Casting Elijah Wood (The Faculty, Deep Impact) as the young hobbit, Frodo Baggins, was an inspired move. Wood seems to have good and innocence exuding from him, while his slight build and chewed fingernails drive his character's frailty and smallness home. (sorry, lost the source)


And here, just for kicks, are my two favourite quotes from crew and cast:

Elijah instinctively knows how to act for the screen. And he has awesome craft and technical ability. It's quite humbling to see so much talent in someone so young. - Peter Jackson

Elijah looks angelic but his beauty of spirit is what makes his Frodo leap out of the screen. Unalloyed goodness is one of the most difficult attributes to act. -- Ian McKellen

PS This always makes me fall about:

'Legolas is a standard sidekick--Tonto or Robin. He is there to display impressive archery skills and utter lines which are the Middle-Earth equivalent of "I got a bad feeling about this one, Sarge".'
Wish I could remember where that came from. :D


PPS Just seen your post, Goldenberry - thanks! I don't know which one it is you mean here:
"What "Times" is the "Times" that published that great article with Elijah and Sean?"
If you can remember any key phrases, it may be findable through the Gandalf the Google :)
And OMG, how I agree with you about the Oscars. If it were left to me I'd ban them, along with multi-instrument classical music competitions. Chalk is decidedly being compared with cheese there. Have the concerts, show the films, celebrate them all, but don't try to make one better than another! Injustice will always be done that way. Am thinking of going into hibernation next February. Oops - that's a negative thought. Cancel immediately.
;)

Originally posted by serena

'Legolas is a standard sidekick--Tonto or Robin. He is there to display impressive archery skills and utter lines which are the Middle-Earth equivalent of "I got a bad feeling about this one, Sarge".'


ROTFL!!!:D

Found out which "Times" had that interview: The L.A. Times. Searched for the author on Google.

Interesting take on Arwen-at-the-Ford, serena. I'll try to get a definitive answer out of PJ in January at the Lincoln Center event. He still has some explaining to do about that!:mad:

Tg - May I second Mariole - anything on Book Frodo v Film Frodo on frodolivesin.us would be greatly appreciated.

Like you, Tg, the reference in the 'Times' interview where Elijah's hooligan film character is described as a 'student journalist' gave me some cause for hope on that one. And I share your :confused: regarding the possible 'son of a circus strongman' role!

Elda - Elijah lives in New York!!! I'd bet good money (if I had any) that you'll be travelling by subway from now on.

Another quote from that interview that warms me to Elijah:
The night a blizzard blanketed the streets he walked 40 blocks in "utter peace."

Now that's something Mikey Carver would do! I love how Elijah appears to be sensitive to experiences and atmosphere. Elijah, in 'utter peace,' walking through New York in a blizzard is a beautiful image. That he is able to 'feel' that sense of peace is a beautiful thought. :)

Peaceweaver - I'm curious to see what you use as your new sig from that 'Times' interview.

Serena - Thanks for those latest reviews. I hadn't seen the Xaonon from AICN one before, but I so agree about Elijah's/Frodo's reaction to Gandalf's fall. Beautifully acted. But then, in my humble opinion Elijah has played Frodo to perfection throughout.

Btw, Serena, I laughed out loud at the Legolas quote you included - 'I got a bad feeling about this one, Sarge.' Love it. :D

Blossom, thank YOU for posting the link to that wonderful NY Times article, which somehow I forgot to look at earlier -- how could I?

Peaceweaver, yes, I too noticed the absence of any mention of Einstein. I'm still hoping for that one -- mainly because the sites one or two of us found, listing EW, seemed to have far more information than any of the others. Will keep looking and fingers crossed. But "student journalist" doesn't half sound better -- and more Elwoodian (yes, I plead guilty to that coinage ;) ) -- than "hooligan"! :)

from Mariole:
... the light in the midst of anguish, the knowledge of victory amid the pain. That is why Tolkien's work has been so profoundly moving and enduring. If PJ is able to capture even a dram of it and project it on the screen, ROTK will blow MR's doors off.;)

Mariole, I so love the way you write! Here's hoping for some bittersweet dynamite ....

From Serena
Weathertop is less explicable. I assume PJ and co were trying to boost the horror of the Nazgul via Frodo's fear and helplessness: if he had faced up to them, they might have seemed less terrifying in general to the cinema audience and their scenes might have lost some tension (OK, it's an inadequate explanation; I'm just trying to explain the inexplicable there! And yes, I too am angry with PJ about that).

I love the Weathertop scene. I was surprised and disappointed and confused the first time I saw it, but I've come to *really* appreciate it. It seems to me that it presents and summarizes much of the movie Frodo character and the content and themes of LotR the movie trilogy in one single scene:

Frodo's 3 hobbit companions all do their active and courageous part, trying to help and defend Frodo and preventing the Enemy from getting the Ring, even though they’re dead scared. Sam especially throws himself into the fray at Frodo’s defense, against overwhelming odds.

But still, at the end it's just Frodo left with the enemy - and with the Ring. The Enemy is overwhelmingly powerful, frightening beyond any peaceful happy hobbit’s worst nightmare back in the Shire – and he’s facing this all alone. All that evil will, the malicious intent, all their focus is just on *him*. The others were just nuisances to the Enemy – it’s him and the Ring they’re after. He is just one small hobbit, not used to fear and fighting – so of course he is terrified. (Elijah's acting as you can see his heart drop down to his toes, is just awesome!).

And in the middle of all this there’s the Ring. Working on his mind, answering the wraiths’ call. The Ring distracts Frodo, so much so that for a moment he’s actually focusing on that to the exclusion of everything else, even the terror of the wraiths right in front of him. The Ring working to distract Frodo, to overwhelm him, to immobilize him, seduce him, to break him, all to get past Frodo’s defenses and return to its true master……. These are shades of themes that will be repeated, with increasing force, as the trilogy progresses. It also foreshadows Osgiliath.

(Yet this is also where Frodo comes to fully realize and understand that the Ring is truly evil, that it represents exactly the same threat as the terrifying wraiths in front of him… The sudden revulsion and shock on his face is plain. And another admiring 2 thumbs up to Elijah!)

In the end the Ring proves too strong for Frodo, he cannot resist its call. He puts it on. Yet still he manages to counterattack the will of the Ring, and manages to hold back just long enough to thwart the Enemy. He manages to set his strength of will against the powerful Wiki, against the Ring, actually regaining control and pulling the Ring back from the wraith. He keeps it out of the Enemy’s grasp just as long as it takes to stop Sauron from getting the Ring. I love that scene of the hand being drawn back!
And his "reward" is a terrible physical attack, horrible pain and imminent death. :( No, Frodo doesn’t manage to keep the Ring from the Enemy through a display of physical strength or physical resistance. And yes, Frodo is nearly completely overcome with fear and terror from all the evil directed towards him, and he very nearly succumbs to the call of the Ring and the menace of the wraiths. And no, it’s not Frodo (alone) who keeps the Ring from the Enemy. But it *is* his internal struggle against the immense force and terror beating down upon his mind, his strength of will, that resists and holds out just long enough. These are the main points I think the movie Weathertop scene communicates, and they seem to reverberate through much of the subsequent portrayal of Frodo and the Ring. It seems to be PJ’s take on Frodo; - his fight is internal, while the physical fight is left to others. It sets Frodo apart, and makes him special. It also fits nicely with what Sean Astin said at Collectormania – about the difficulties of dramatizing and portraying a fight that is for all intents and purposes a completely internal struggle, a fight taking place inside the mind of a person.

And as for Aragorn, at Weathertop as subsequently in the rest of the trilogy: He manages to draw the attention of the enemy away from Frodo. He proves a superb fighter, managing to win against overwhelming odds, showing astounding courage. In that sense Frodo’s internal fight here is very obviously contrasted with Aragorn’s physical fighting skills. This continues later in the trilogy: Both of them face new attacks and are nearly overcome, both manage to counterattack and regain some ground, to regroup and strengthen the defenses, both are slowly pushed towards that final defeat, but resist just long enough. Frodo’s fight continues to be internal, Aragorn’s mainly and visibly “external”.

That's my longwinded and convoluted view on Weathertop, and I'm sticking by it! ;)


I’m more ambivalent about the ford, btw. I wouldn’t have minded Frodo at least being able to speak up against the Wraiths, or showing some form of conscious resistance and fighting back, when he’s sitting on the horse there. And I *really* dislike blubbering irrational Arwen at the Ford!

But I think this post is overlong as it is. Haven’t you all missed those loooong posts of mine? :o

Maeglian!!.....

And in the middle of all this there’s the Ring. Working on his mind, answering the wraiths’ call. The Ring distracts Frodo, so much so that for a moment he’s actually focusing on that to the exclusion of everything else, even the terror of the wraiths right in front of him. The Ring working to distract Frodo, to overwhelm him, to immobilize him, seduce him, to break him, all to get past Frodo’s defenses and return to its true master……. These are shades of themes that will be


......


You said it all so well!!!

Wonderful exposition, Maeglian. I too find Elijah's acting in that scene awesome, as everywhere else. And yes, of course you're right about the overwhelming horror of his situation and his phenomenal portrayal of it. I suppose it's because of the inevitable misinterpretation by the philistine majority (why should I care about them - because some are in the Academy, perhaps?) that I wish he hadn't been made to drop his sword quite SO soon, without showing a spark of book-Frodo's alleged fight (pleading ignorance again). For the rest, I agree.

And yes, I for one had really missed your looooooong posts! :cool:

Why? Not only was he not nominated two years ago; he wasn't even invited to the ceremony! He went as PJ's guest.

Niph ker-splutters in indignation!

No, seriously - she does! (Well, almost! ;))

I remember an old, old thread at the Old Imladris in which someone said "I once dreamt I was Frodo and by God it was awful. Now I know how it feels to have your finger bitten off. How dare they leave him out of a picture." ;) I think it was in response to a very early movie picture which did not contain him. Couldn't helping thinking of that here. :)

(((((BLOSSOM)))))

Pearl - you know me too well. I may froth at the mouth but will try not to devour the cinema furniture in rage.

Well actually, I think even the BBC version short-changes Frodo and makes Sam seem the hero, to be truthful.

(I'll shut up now, because I know Sam V Frodo stuff really annoys a lot of people - and I HAVE grown gentler about this over the months/years, and I know many see the "issue" as irrelevant anyway. No offence meant. Will return to my other planet now). :)

(((((Serena))))) - you review-goddess, you! :)

Serena, in my fervour to defend Weathertop I forgot to thank you for all the review snippets. They've been a great and wonderful read. :)

About Elijah's Oscar possiblilities, I admit I am much less anxious about that than I used to be. Oscar is so much positioning and politicking...... so many other aspects than the quality of the acting is taken into account. If Elijah was awarded an Oscar it'd be the icing on the cake. But irrespective of any award, his acting as Frodo is fantastic. If the Academy fails to recognize that, well, that's *their* loss. We know what's what. :) And seemingly, from Serena's review snippets, there are quite a lot of reviewers who agree with us. And I think Elijah has heard enough from fans and reviewers by now to know about these very favourable opinions, and the gratitude many fans are feeling too. :)

Originally posted by Niphredil
Well actually, I think even the BBC version short-changes Frodo and makes Sam seem the hero, to be truthful.

Really, Niph??? :eek: Oh no, I've never EVER thought that. :) Ian Holm's Frodo is so commanding and so mature. And so true to the book character. As is Bill Nighy's Sam, who has great dignity but remains deferential to Holm's Frodo to the end.

And let's be honest here. If anyone shortchanges Frodo, it's the good Professor himself, turning Frodo into baggage for Sam to carry about in the last section of the book!

Errrr ... Weathertop pisses me off, people. :p For two reasons:

1) The Nazgul are not scary enough! ;)
2) Frodo drops his sword. :mad:

I have absolutely no problemo with Frodo being ****scared in that scene. Of course he is terrified: he senses what these creatures are, more than the other hobbits do. He was terrified in the book and gives in by putting on the Ring - but he also resists and tries to fight back.

One thing alone redeems Weathertop for me: Elijah's scream when Frodo is stabbed in the shoulder by old Witchking of Angmar. Oooooh, I winced, I did. I felt the pain, the pain that would afflict Frodo for the rest of his life. Poor baby. :(

At least Elijah gave me Determined!Frodo in his confrontation with Boromir in the film.

Says Pearl:
At least Elijah gave me Determined!Frodo in his confrontation with Boromir in the film.

oh yeah yeah yeah. Very good. ummm


I think that everything Maeglian said was true and well put and exactly as we were supposed to see it. The problem is that obviously it didn't translate to everyone that way. The movie scene often needs explaining by people who read the book to people who didn't. That being the case, something was not done quite right. Or could have been done a little better. I also love the scene, but even in first viewing was very aware that my knowledge of Nazgul made it understandable. A couple of viewers sitting with me had to later have explained just why it makes sense that Frodo dropped his sword....

Everything evil in the world is pointed at Frodo. Not at his companions...but at Frodo. Baddest things that there are. Yes. Scary. Internal battle. Got it.

So to me, looking deeper at it, it is obvious he has much more to fight than the others on the hill, and that he does a fairly--and even comparably fantastic--job of it. All that Maeglian said.

But something should have been tweaked so that it was more obvious to the novice viewer. I hate Frodo misunderstood. It's quite a job he has to do :) . And Frodo vs. Sam??? Love Sam--but this is Frodo's destiny. Frodo takes on what no man elf dwarf or wizard will do. It's the Frodo story. Frodo Frodo Frodo:D (with a great deal of wonderful assistance by the wonderful Sam. Wonderful Noble Beautiful Sam).
IMHO ;)

Originally posted by Pearl
...One thing alone redeems Weathertop for me: Elijah's scream when Frodo is stabbed in the shoulder by old Witchking of Angmar...
For me, it's that absolute giving-everything-he's-got effort to pull the Ring away from the WiKi (and that he's able to, which is pretty amazing given the competition!). The fact that he's so obviously feeling real pain during that effort just makes it all the more heroic.

Serena--loved the "alleged fight" :D comment (that's right--we could be making it all up, you know ;) ). It also reminded me that I need to label this:


FotR BOOK spoiler








Weathertop and the ford are the two places where the most important thing Frodo does--at least in my understanding of it--is use the name of Elbereth. He doesn't need Aragorn or Arwen to save him, but since the movie leaves Elbereth out of it, IMHO we end up with them as "stand-in" saviors. :rolleyes:









End of FotR BOOK spoiler






There's one bit from the Times article that I found especially hopeful:



RotK Movie Spoiler







I was glad to see the statement that the reason Frodo can't let Sam carry the Ring toward the end is because he (Frodo) understands how powerful the Ring is and knows that Sam wouldn't be able to destroy it. I don't know if it's quite book canon (but in the book we're in Sam's POV during that time, so we wouldn't know what Frodo was thinking). I also don't know if there's any way they can show that through action or dialogue in the movie, but if Elijah and Sean were playing it with that motivation in mind, it just may come through--with the benefit of showing a bit more of Frodo's strength and awareness.






End of RotK movie spoiler





Blossom, I loved that bit about the blizzard, too (although I have to say I'm guessing it was a "heavy snowfall"--walking 40 blocks in a real blizzard :eek: , with its high winds and all, would be anything but peaceful). I wondered if that experience had anything to do with Elijah moving to New York. The move could very well say something about the type of work he's interested in--more indie stuff and less "Hollywood"? (Or, dare we think about it, something on stage?) At least no one will be able to joke about his mother doing his laundry anymore :rolleyes: . I don't know why, exactly, but I'm glad he made the move--for some reason, New York seems to "fit" him better than L.A. Less physical isolation from your neighbors and other people, maybe? As if I would know him well enough to even guess :rolleyes: .

Serena--So you were the "Elwoodian" coiner, eh? Thanks--I couldn't remember who'd come up with it :) .

---Okay, I'll keep mulling over book/movie comparisons (as if I don't have anything else I should be doing other than thinking about something I don't need to write for another month and a half :rolleyes: ). Going back to SCS's comments yesterday (?), IMVHO looking at the book & movies side-by-side really shows how everything in Tolkien's story does work together. Tweaking a "character arc" ends up changing an overall theme, changing the plot changes the characters, altering the characters' motivations leads to plot changes, etc., etc. It's those overall thematic changes--and how they affect the storyline and characters--that I find really interesting (not necessarily in a positive way :rolleyes: , but...).

Serena-Hobmom, blossom, kuduk, naiad, thanks for joining me in being doggedly optimistic about it!

For myself that's just the way I am. Especially in things relating to the LOTR films. In spite of the few bits...Arwen:rolleyes: ... That bother me a trifle.... I feel that PJ and crew...especially Elijah.... have done an amazing job at imagining and then realizing the almost impossible task of filming LOTR. PJ's heart is clearly fully in his work and he, as a fan of the books, wants to bring them as alive as possible for fellow book fans and the movie-going public as well.

It was inevitable that his views and the views of some other fans would clash here and there...isn't that the way it is with all of us? Still he has stayed brillintly true to the essence of the books...largely though Elijah's incredible performance.

Given the heart-felt reactions of PJ, Elijah and the rest of the cast about the overwheling impact of ROTK on them I feel fully justified in my unbridled optimism that this third film is going to totally blow me and hopefully most of the audience completely away.

Maeglian- Your exposition on Weathertop has given me a much wider perspective on that scene. I will look at it much differently from now on.

Serena- At last! Another person who uses the word Philistine to describe the plodders who refuse to see brilliance when it's right in front of them. I have always loved that term but no one else I ever have said it to seemed to get what it meant. Maybe it's better understood across the pond than here in the US.

I too hope the philistines in the Academy don't over-power those 'with eyes to see who can'. My optimism says that Elijah's brilliance in ROTK is going to be so bright that not even they will be able to ignore him.

Great post, Hobmom! especially - Still he has stayed brillintly true to the essence of the books...largely though Elijah's incredible performance Absolutely!

Blossom - Thanks for the Times interview link. Poorly written as it was (getting through those sentences was like unraveling knotted yarn), it had all those morsels of detail that everyone's been savoring here. Anyone notice in that adorable shot of Sean and Elijah in the tree, how diminutive EW looked? Excellent example of forced perspective, since the two are nominally the same height! I can just imagine Elijah scampering up that branch where he'd be in the background of the shot - just as he was in so many of those early publicity shots of actors and crew on-set in Wellington. And I remember thinking, how remarkable it was the leading man was hardly to be found, often blocked by someone's shoulder, costume bigger girth, or whatever. It's gratifying to see such humility lauded for a change (I never felt I could even mention it to anyone) - a candle in the smug face of 'empowerment' and self-aggrandizement.

The blizzard and Elijah image is beautiful indeed. May he always find peace in the storm.

Tg - I too was hopeful about the excerpt that prompted you to say this -if Elijah and Sean were playing it with that motivation in mind, it just may come through--with the benefit of showing a bit more of Frodo's strength and awareness.

I'm Curious.

CouldFrodo be strong enough to sucker punch Gollum into next week if he had to?

Wouldn't that be fun to watch? or better yet, after Destroying the Ring, strong enoughto punch Sauroman into next week? LOL.

:D

Naiad, great post!

Anyone notice in that adorable shot of Sean and Elijah in the tree, how diminutive EW looked?

Yes, that shot of Sean and Elijah in the tree speaks volumes. It's amazing - I look at that photo and my eyes see two actors, one called Sean, the other Elijah, and at the same time my heart feels clearly Sam and Frodo in their purest quality. It's all there.

Blossom, thank you for that link :k ! Btw, how's Holly doing? Is she allright?

Serena, another thank you for the wonderful reviews. Most of them are new to me. I've never read such positive reviews here :(. Our critics seem to have no eyes for good acting.

Hooray! A Maeglian pooooooooooost ;) ! How wonderful! Your comments are always a good read.
As for the Weathertop discussion - I watched it being a complete Tolkien virgin and I was scared to death by the ringwraiths and died a thousand deaths along with Frolijah. And yet I considered Frodo a really intrepid hero. Maeglian's exposition of Frodo's internal struggle opposed to Aragorn's external struggle makes perfect sense to me.


And what the heck is a circus strongman??? :confused:

Originally posted by naiad
...a candle in the smug face of 'empowerment' and self-aggrandizement.
Hmmm... Reminds me of... a certain literary character :) :) .

Putting that together with Serena's and Hobmom's posts, I'm not sure if this is quite synchronicity, but here's a quote from a Franciscan friar working among one of the indigenous tribes in Brazil; I was just typing it into a newsletter a half-hour ago:
All eyes of the world are on the Amazon... and all hands are grabbing for their share... and all Amazonians are heading for the streets of misery. "Greed, Government and 'Geld'" [he's originally from Germany] are the powers that be and the justice wrought when determining lots, land and life for the future. As always these are the Goliaths of today who overrun the Davids of all societies.
Goliath, of course, being the ultimate Philistine. And David... we've talked about David before, I believe ;) .

But we know how that fight ended :) . Self-aggrandizement and philistines we'll probably always have with us, but it also seems there's always someone (fictional or RL) with a candle to light the way (for eyes to see that can--or will).

That's all totally off-topic, I suppose. But I'm glad Frolijah and Seanwise are around, and being interviewed, and their values being shown in a positive light rather than ridiculed... just to remind us there are lots of good people around.

Yes, Maeglian, I have missed your long posts!:)

tg, to a California boy, any form of snow is probably a "blizzard". I hope he enjoys his first REAL blizzard as much.:p And I agree with you that New York seems to suit him more than California. NYC is a real city, a great city, that's about much, much more than the movie industry--which is of course the only reason why Hollywood even exists. I hope it will be easier for him to go about the business of having a real life there, apart from the entertainment industry.

Pearl dear, I feel your pain about the sword-dropping at Weathertop. But a thought just occurred to me :eek: ;). Weathertop is the first time that Frodo has ever even held a sword, at least in the film. How unsurprising that he should drop it when confronted by Ringwraiths face-to-face(of sorts) for the first time! The lack of a sword emphasizes all the more his vulnerability to attack, and focuses the audience's attention upon the courage and will needed to draw his hand back from the Wiki's call at a moment when he is utterly defenseless.

It also ties in to TTT Osgiliath, when Frodo is more than ready to use his sword (albeit against his devoted friend!) and then, slowly and deliberately, drops it / flings it away. In ROTK (if PJ keeps this in), he reaches the point of refusing to even take up a sword. I dunno, maybe I'm reaching, but to me it's an interesting progression, though not of course book-canon.

FotR Book-Weathertop Spoilers






I just went to the book to check how things actually played out at Weathertop. It might sound a bit trite to say "You win some and you lose some," but that's the way it seems to me after reading that scene over again. Frodo can't, of course, put on the Ring and hold his sword at the same time :rolleyes: , so in the book he doesn't draw his sword until after he's put on the Ring. The other hobbits never draw theirs and Aragorn, well, just has that broken one at the time, y'know. Aragorn is with the hobbits, and has them sit around the fire with sticks.

IMHO, having Aragorn leave not only lets the audience wonder who's side he's really on, but also forces the hobbits to deal with the situation without him--and Frodo clearly takes the lead in that. IMVHO, the other hobbits come out better in the movie than in the book, where Merry and Pippin immediately fall to the ground without doing anything and Sam "shrinks against Frodo." But I think it also gives Frodo a positive boost in the movie that he draws his sword before he puts on the Ring--actually, the moment they spot the wraiths advancing--and gets the other hobbits to a place where they can at least try to defend themselves.

It might sound simplistic, but logistically speaking, he can't draw his sword before he puts on the Ring and still have it in his hand after he puts on the Ring (unless the Ring jumps on by itself a la Bree--and I think in the Weathertop scene it's important that Frodo actually put on the Ring). It's either one or the other. In the book we get one and in the movie we get the other, and IMVHO they both show Frodo's courage, with the movie showing more of his leadership.

In the book, until he puts on the Ring (we do get a very good sense of him battling the temptation to do so, which we don't in the movie), Frodo's just standing there with his stick, too, like the others. The way it plays out in the movie does at least allow him to show some initiative.

I'm not saying I like it better the way it plays out in the movie, but I don't think the only effect it has on the portrayal of Frodo is to weaken him.







End of FotR Book-Weathertop Spoilers







I have a slightly different view of the sword-dropping at Osgiliath than Goldie does--although I don't know that one's more "correct" than the other. I see it as a "visual aid" showing just how completely spent Frodo is. What it looks like to me is that Frodo simply loosens his grip and the sword drops--without any action on his part. In fact, afterward it looks as if his hand closes up again as if he hasn't quite noticed the sword is gone.

I'll have to get back to screencapping that scene (well, I have the screencaps; just haven't done anything with them, yet), because IMVHO the part we see from Sam's POV, with Frodo holding the sword on him, is an honest-to-Eru "How Does He Do It?" shot. Frodo's "in there" struggling against the Ring, and I swear you can see the battle going back and forth on his face--you can tell when the Ring is getting an edge and when Frodo forces it back. Frodo's fighting for Sam's life--and he gives it everything he's got. Afterward, he's simply completely, utterly spent. IMHO, the "I can't do this" line takes on a whole different tone in that setting than it would otherwise. He could barely keep the Ring from killing Sam. He has to be wondering what's going to happen when there's a time he literally can't win out over it.

I suppose the reason Book Aragorn doesn't tell the hobbits to draw sword at Weathertop because he knows that "all blades perish that pierce that dreadful King" (I wonder if it happens if you stab any of the other eight?) - and also probably already knows what happens to the bearer of any sword that stabs aforsaid King.

Umm, what a luscious set of posts to dip into. (((Faculty!)))

Some ROTK spoilery bits interleaved below:

To Goldenberry's discussion of the dropped-sword progression, it sounds to me like you probably uncovered PJ's "visual" way of showing Frodo's growing pacifism, which is entirely book canon. At Weathertop, his fear (if you like) compells him to drop the sword. Frodo's message: sword is useless (the other hobbits demonstrate this as well -- they haven't the strength or reach against man-sized swords). At Osgiliath, Frodo himself drops the sword. Frodo's message: sword is actually a liability (can harm friend vs foe). *spoiler* At the foot of Mt. Doom, Frodo casts away his sword without even drawing it. "I'll bear no weapon, fair or foul. Let them take me, if they will!" Frodo's message: sword is irrelevant to the true battle. If we take Maeglian's wonderful demonstration of "Aragorn as distraction" as a PJ intentional device, Frodo's growing external pacifism grows as Aragorn's demonstrated distraction grows. As he marches north, the ring goes south, in two very different yet complementary battles. The external vs the internal struggle, working together to defeat an overwhelming foe. Yet as Aragorn himself says to Frodo at the Field of Cormallen, "yours has been the darkest road." If this scene is what EW was referring to in the recent interview (the "moment" Aragorn has with the hobbits), I'll be bawling my eyes out. Well, I will anyway.

That said, I agree with Alyon that the Weathertop scene might have been tweaked a bit to make it more obvious what was going on. As a book-versed viewer, I was thinking, "Hey, what? How come Frodo doesn't slash at his foe? Where's Elbereth? And why the heck isn't Strider with them, keeping their hearts from fear?" (At that point in my movie-viewing experience, I was still lamenting the fact that Gildor hadn't shown up in the Shire. I had such a wonderful scene imagined for that! All gone, *sniff*!) I think, now that ROTK is about to burst onto the screen, that we'll want to revisit these and other disappointments in the context of PJ's completed vision. The pacifism arc, the reluctant-king arc (this one really bothered me), the Faramir unloved-son arc, etc. will be more easily understood when we see how PJ has chosen to portray them in their entirety.

more ROTK movie spoiler: I also picked up what you did, tg, about Sam being unable to destroy the Ring. I do think it's something we'll see in dialog, somewhere, somehow.

Edit after seeing Tg's latest post and Niphredil's addition:
Niphy, your "all blades perish" point is well taken and book relevant. I think it may have been ditched the way Elbereth was as just too complicated to try to get across on screen. I'd be interested to see if this idea is resurrected for ROTK.
Tg, agreeing that Frodo was utterly spent, but I stand by my "sword is a liability" statement above. Even if it wasn't conscious on Frodo's part at that time, he certainly didn't attach any importance to holding onto this (really pretty amazing) sword. No matter how tired he gets, he doesn't drop the Ring! His focus is always primarily on the internal battle. (I think we're saying the same thing, just emphasizing different parts of this very multiple-layered performance.)

book spoilers: His "I can't do this" utterly breaks my heart every time I hear it. To me, that's the vocalization of Frodo's declaration, made early on the hills of the Emyn Muil in the book, of the ultimate futility of his task. Book!Frodo is quite clear that this is a suicide mission. The brilliance of movie!Frodo's line is that those four little words to me encapsulate the character's awareness that the Ring is stronger than he is and will break him sooner or later. Until then, he thought (or hoped) that he could hold out. At this point, he knows he won't: he will break. He will be broken. And he goes on anyway. *sob!* breaks my heart.


Nothing at all movie or book related:

I also harbored a suspicion that EW might be considering some stage work given his move to NYC. He has mentioned in interviews that his friends have been urging him to try it. I'm not very familiar with NYC myself, but am glad to hear that it offers so much more of a balanced existence than just Hollywood. I think this sounds promising for our boy.

I also noticed the "forced perspective" of the tree photo -- very cute! It almost seems as if Elijah can sit in Sean's lap, a little hobbit man.

whiteling, a circus strongman is someone who displays feats of strength, such as bending iron bars or lifting a cartload full of clowns with his back. One of the Cirque du Soleil shows I saw had one it in. These are very muscle-bound men -- would I detect a bit of potential unhappiness in li'l Elijah being the son of one of these guys? ;)

I can hear Robert Stephens "dulcet" tones saying that line in the BBC LOTR :D !

{{{Maeglian}}} Just read your analysis further back in the log, of movie Fro vs. Aragorn - much enjoyed (and edified).

{{{Tg}}} {{{Mariole}}}
Those are some fine insights! I'm liking the movie better and better, thanks to you all. :k
Still need to watch TTT again (unextended,so I can compare with EE next week :D - can't wait!!) but RL's been preventing me.

Tg - Loved the Fransiscan Friar quote. Is it contemporary?

Speaking of books. Wasn't movie Huck Finn more likeable than book Huck Finn?

Book version Barney Snow was cold and uncaring. Movie version made you feel sorry for him.

Book version Artful Dodger is very much Alpha Male. Movie version is more likeable.

What say You all?

I can see that him being a Circus Strongman's son, and not fitting in, I think that would be very funny.

What say You (all)? :D

Maeg!!! What a beautiful Weathertop post!

Originally quoted by Maeglian:

But still, at the end it's just Frodo left with the enemy - and with the Ring. The Enemy is overwhelmingly powerful, frightening beyond any peaceful happy hobbit’s worst nightmare back in the Shire – and he’s facing this all alone. All that evil will, the malicious intent, all their focus is just on *him*. The others were just nuisances to the Enemy – it’s him and the Ring they’re after. He is just one small hobbit, not used to fear and fighting – so of course he is terrified. (Elijah's acting as you can see his heart drop down to his toes, is just awesome!).
_________________________________________

I have to say I agree with every word, Maeg. I can't add any words or thoughts to your wonderful take on that scene, but I can provide some illustration in the form of a few gifs depicting Frodo's struggle against the Ring and the Wiki:

1. Frodo realizes the Ring's 'pull' to the WIki. (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Wtopgif4.gif)

2. Frodo fights the will of the Ring. (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Wtopgif5.gif)

3. The Wiki stabs Frodo. (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Wtopstabgif.gif)

4. The injured Frodo takes off the Ring. (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Wtopgif9.gif)

Isn't it great to look back and renew old discussions?

Back to ROTK - an article from CFQ magazine at TORn:



WARNING - ROTK SPOILERS!!!



The link ishere: (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/2/1068607918)



END OF ROTK SPOILERS.


Whiteling - Holly is doing really well. She is back to normal, although we are keeping her on a low-fat diet that should help to prevent the problem recurring. No more treats! :eek:
Thanks so much for asking after her. Sending hugs to you and your cockatiels!:)

Bye.

(((Faculty))) for the wonderful posts lately!

:k to Blossom for the gifs! Finally I see his body moving up as the sword comes out on the 3rd one. And that 4th gif!! How does someone not in severe pain look like that?!



MAJOR ROTK MOVIE SPOILERS TO END OF POST:











Regarding the linked article,
1.) I'm worried about the "Frodo is starting to behave in such a strange way that...the empathy of the audience will switch over to Sam...To a certain degree, Frodo is becoming like Gollum".
{I need to keep telling myself "Don't worry, be happy, trust PJ", well I'll try}

2.) His change at the Grey Havens with the others not knowing Frodo is going 'til the end could be really good if well done.

I'm off to buy more Kleenex.

Wow, Blossom, beautiful heartbreaking gifs! I never really picked up on how the Ring itself seems to move toward the Wiki of (seeming) its own volition. (How does he DO that?!?) I'm reminded of Frodo's mental debate at the top of Amon Hen, when he wonders if, instead of resisting, he's thinking, "Verily I come to you?" Really demonstrative. Oh, it's too sad to keep watching it!

Kuduk, perhaps it won't help, but I'm trusting that we will remain able to love Frodo throughout the horrible burden that the Ring puts on him. Yes, Sam will be his wonderful good buddy and necessary staunch aide, but I'm trusting that it will be fully clear what Frodo's burden is costing him and audiences all over the world will die a thousand deaths of sympathy for him.

Here are a couple of (to me) reassuring quotes about ROTK from Fantasy Worlds magazine, posted at TORn last week. They interviewed Peter Jackson, who said:
The focus of The Return of the King goes back to Frodo and Sam. ... it certainly feels as if the impetus swings back around to the last 40 or 50 miles of Frodo and Sam's quest.
The film is dark and sad and triumphant all at the same time. It's dark, but there's courageousness in the darkness. ... It becomes very positive and cathartic.
He says more about Sam's role which you might find too spoilerish or suggestive of diminishing Frodo's importance, but somehow I don't think that that's what will happen. I think we will all be totally devastated and have to cling to each other, weeping on the message boards for days after.

Oh, is it December yet!!!

Blossom, here's another :k for the heart-wrenching gifs you posted!
I'm relieved to hear the good news about Holly. - I tried very hard to hand on your hugs to my cockatiels but they couldn't work up any enthusiasm for it, paradoxically :p ;) !


Thank you, Mariole, for answering my somewhat stupid question (insert clap-hand-on-forehead-smilie here). NOW I got it! Of course, I'd like to see Elwood with a moustache...

http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/strongman-moustache-big.jpg

:) :D

Originally posted by Blossom
<<<Another quote from that interview that warms me to Elijah:
The night a blizzard blanketed the streets he walked 40 blocks in "utter peace."

Now that's something Mikey Carver would do! I love how Elijah appears to be sensitive to experiences and atmosphere. Elijah, in 'utter peace,' walking through New York in a blizzard is a beautiful image. That he is able to 'feel' that sense of peace is a beautiful thought. >>>

"Sensitive to experiences and atmosphere" - that was my exact thought when I read that and it reminded me of a couple of other examples of this:

From 'The Chosen One' by Tom Roston (Premiere):
"It feels like this road could go on endlessly" Elijah Wood says, spinning around and then walking on the flat, cracked earth of a dry lake bed in California's Mojave Desert. "You are chasing something that you are not actually reaching". We are staring at a mirage, walking toward it as it recedes in the dry heat. Water appears to surround us, reflecting the sage bush and rocks that create a perimeter around this remote, ancient spot a mere two-hour drive from Wood's home in Santa Monica. "Now, this is spiritual" he says. "I'll have to make pilgrimages out here". In the distance, a brushfire rages, casting a smoke plume high into the cloudless sky, but Wood focuses on the dusty earth below us and he flops down on his stomach. "Ahh, the ground is amazing" he says. "What would be incredible would be to camp out here. Can you imagine seeing the stars?"

And I adore this little snippet from "The LOTR Official Movie Guide":

Then, recalling a particular experience while filming on location, he adds: "I had a bit of a break and took a stroll to my trailer. I was walking alone in this beautiful field and I just looked down at my feet and stopped. It was the first time that I felt like a hobbit. It was bizarre, but - just for a moment - I imagined that I really was a hobbit".

I would give anything to know what thoughts were going through his head during that long walk through the snow-laden streets of NY.

Hello Faculty Members, excuse my delurking for a few moments.

That was a lovely article on Elijah and Sean from the Times. I was thinking about what sort of part the circus strongman's son could be and went for a bit of a trawl through the web. That EJW said he played the son of a strongman made me think that his part might not be the main focus of the movie.

One thing I came up with was the mention of this on scriptsales. I won't post a link as I haven't looked right through the site.


Script

Title: The Mighty Atom
Log Line: True story of the circus strongman Joseph Greenstein. Set in turn-of-the-century Poland, an asthmatic child, Greenstein, went to the circus at 14 and changed his life. He joined up and became a popular sideshow and, upon arrival in America in 1911, became an unlikely battler against racism and intolerance.
Writer: Howard A. Rodman
Agent: CAA
Buyer: Universal Pictures and Magnet Entertainment
Price: n/a
Genre: Drama
Logged: 12/14/01
More: Ed Saxon and Peter Saraf will produce. Pic will be adapted from Ed Spielman book's "The Spiritual Journey of Joseph L. Greenstein."



This was archived in December 2001 but as far as I know the script has not been filmed. I had never heard of Mr Greenstein before but from what I can find on the net he seems to have been an extraordinary man - all 5'4" of him. Here's an article on him. (http://www.naturalstrength.com/history/detail.asp?ArticleID=311) A regular Samson - holding back planes with his hair. :eek: Online reviews I have read about the book are all very positive. Has anyone here read it? From what I gather the book seems to encompass The Mighty Atom's philosophies on life and health and, as in the title, place an emphasis on his spirituality - combined with amazing feats of strength.

The only mention I could find of his family was that he had 10 children - it could be that the script would dramatise the relationship between father and this particular son and might not be such a fish out of water story for EJW as might first be thought.

Of course, this is just speculation on my part and it could be a completely different story.

BTW, Donald O'Connor was the son of a circus strongman - Happy Feet anyone?? :D Elijah might want to take some dancing lessons.;)

Shireling, those are lovely quotes from Elijah on feeling an affinity with nature. I feel just where he's coming from on that. He really is a special person and so so right for Frodo.

Delurks again, dizzy from posting in the Faculty.:)

Shireling, thanks for those sweet posts about Elijah! I love the one where he say's "...just for a moment I was hobbit!" How sweet! And as beautiful as he is, with out that sweetness I'd have lost interest months ago.

Serena those it was really fun looking back over those reviews! Thank you!

Ladies, if you've done this topic to death I understand, but I'm curious about something. How did you all like "All I Want"? I rented it and watched it twice in as many days. I then ended up buying a copy and watching it again. And I have to say that I look forward to watching it with my husband and seeing what he thinks.

I thought that Elijah's acting was great. I particularly like watching the first several minutes of the movie because he has almost no dialogue, but doesn't need it; it all plays out on that lovely face!

The fantasy aspects of the story were a little "TV" to me somehow.

The sex scenes were delicately handled. (Although here I have to admit that I am rather appalled that a 17 year old virgin of either gender is regarded as such a rarity.)

All of this to ask,

Have I completely lost all objectivity? Can I really even be objective about watching Elijah anymore? Does it even matter?

Just wondering! :D

Honey!

Later edit: Now that I've been awake for half the day and have a pot of coffee in me ;) , I realize I was reading something in Merewyn's post that wasn't there (such a talent of mine :o ). For some reason, I read it as saying Elijah should think of taking dancing lessons from Donald O'Connor, but now that I read it again, I'm not even sure why I thought that :confused: . Anyway, I still liked the guy and am sorry he's gone...

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Originally posted by Merewyn
BTW, Donald O'Connor was the son of a circus strongman - Happy Feet anyone?? :D Elijah might want to take some dancing lessons.;)
Very short on time, but had to jump in and say that, sadly, it's a little late for dancing lessons :( ... Donald O'Connor died recently (within the past several months). One of the last things he said is, I hope, not appropro [sp?] to this thread, but I thought it showed a good sense of humor/outlook: "I want to thank the Academy for the lifetime achievement award I know I'll be getting." :p

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honeyelf--There were split opinions about All I Want (there is quite a bit of discussion on it earlier in the thread). I don't have time to say much now, except to agree with what you said, with the one exception that I liked it better after the first few minutes, when I thought Jones became less of a stereotypical "kid who doesn't fit in."

One set of screencaps with comments, if you want to take a peek: http://www.frodolivesin.us/id70.htm

Hi, Honeyelf. Just popping in to answer your questions.

Have I completely lost all objectivity?
No. See Serena's review quotes above. The boy be good.

Can I really even be objective about watching Elijah anymore?
I certainly hope not. I personally have no intention of being objective even remotely. To me the juice of life is all those areas where we aren't objective -- where our heart sings and we burst into silly grins over some private delight, and maybe skip for a step or two in sheer enjoyment. Ah, that I could live more of life in that lovely realm of sweet appreciation!

Does it even matter?
It depends. Do you want to enjoy life to the fullest, or impress a bunch of insular snobs by displaying dazzling bits of snarky criticism. I know which glass I'd rather drink from! :p

I hope you take these answers in the friendly spirit in which they are intended. Elijah hasn't let me down, professionally or from what I can determine of him personally. The lad has earned my respect. I wish him the very best of success.

Blossom, thank you for the wonderful gifs! :) I'm glad your gif'ing skills are still so very excellent - are you planning to buy the Extended Edition TTT once it is released? (Unsubtle hint, I know :o )


Merewyn, lovely to see you delurking! :) Thank you for that sample of high-quality research! Very interesting information, and this seems a very fascinating life story, one that I'd like to see Elijah in even if his role isn't the lead.
From Kuduk
I'm worried about the "Frodo is starting to behave in such a strange way that...the empathy of the audience will switch over to Sam...To a certain degree, Frodo is becoming like Gollum". Spoilery EE TTT comment follows:
*
*
*
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I recently saw some pictures that had been screencapped from special features on the EE TTT. It was an alternate Henneth Anun scene - Frodo reacting to Faramir's treath to the Ring. This scene was actually filmed, but later they didn't use it: It had Frodo turning almost into Gollum; - some very serious make up thing going on; - Frodo looked like a Nosferatu in old vampire films as well as Gollum. :eek: But anyway, the fact that they did actually put Elijah through that makeup ordeal and filmed the scene, does confirm that the Frodo-turning-slowly-into-Gollum interpretation is an important part of PJ's take on Frodo's character arc.
There are many clear parallells between Frodo and Gollum in the TTT already, of course, but this..........!

If you haven't already seen those pictures, do sit down and brace yourselves before you see them! :D End spoiler


Hobmom posted a heap of lovely pictures over in the Hugs Haven. Thinking back on the discussion in here some while back about the sad internet rumour-mongering and how Elijah Wood and his friends continue to rise above all that, I think this *lovely* picture should *really* be seen in here as well:

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/002.jpg

Hope you don't mind me posting this here, Hobmom!


Honeyelf, as long as this brings you joy, and it doesn't harm anyone, why worry? Enjoy this as much as you can, I'd say! Being enthusiastic is a wonderful thing. :)

I love those pics! I think these of Lij and Sean are adorable and you can see their friendship so clearly. It's too bad a few others try to twist it into other things. I'm so glad the guys have spoken up about all that silliness.

More of those beautiful Central Park pics will be up in Hugs soon. Shireling told me there were several more and I just found them.

honeyelf,
I thought EW was pretty good in All I Want as well. Therefore, of course you haven't lost your objectivity. ;)

Originally posted by Merewyn
Delurks again, dizzy from posting in the Faculty.:)

Hi, Merewyn,
Hope you've regained your equilibrium. :D

whiteling,
Your "strong man" picture makes my eyes hurt, yet I kind of like it...

Didn't someone post a bit of a comparison between EW and Donald O'Connor? I couldn't find it, but I do think there's something similar in how they move for "action" scenes. Not much similiar in their approach to acting, though!

Mariole,
Way back when I know we had a huge discussion on the battle between Frodo and the WiKi "wrestling" for the Ring, and then Frodo being stabbed (that may have been the first time tgshaw did one of her frame-by-frame illos!).

Which is to say, you're not the only one bothered by all that, but some of the people who screamed about it loudest back then got talked into some form of acceptance. :p I also think that, when it comes to Frodo dropping the sword, we need to remember that his situation is different than that of the other hobbits. They all had the intellectual knowledge that here were some big, scary guys who could clobber them, but only Frodo has seen Sam bash at them ineffectively with his sword and Merry and Pippin swept away like so much laundry when it's his turn to confront them.

I also think PJ was trying to convey how the Nazgul "emenate evil" - Frodo is the bravest, at the start. He's the first to pull his sword, he chases the other three up the stairs, he's totally in leadership mode until the other three get their acts together and realize they need to protect the Ring, which they try to do, though terrified. But the Nazgul aren't after them - they're after Frodo, focused on Frodo. There's that one shot of the WiKi (I think it is), where the music or sound effects really give you this impression of "homing in", and their attention is totally on Frodo from that point on. Which I think would mean they're "radiating evil" more directly at him than at the other guys, over and above the fact that he's influenced by the Ring. What he's facing is not what the others faced.

Oh, and I really like your "pacifist progression" theory. :)

Hey, guys, my parents are coming out for a week to try and get some work done on the still-unfinished kitchen!

This is a good thing. :)

And the Extended DVD will be out next Tuesday.

This is a good thing. :)

Matter of fact, my parents will be arriving next Tuesday, as well.

This is... not so good. :p

Sheryl

Originally posted by shilohmm
Didn't someone post a bit of a comparison between EW and Donald O'Connor? I couldn't find it, but I do think there's something similar in how they move for "action" scenes. Not much similiar in their approach to acting, though!
IIRC, that started with one of SCS's questions :) about whether there was anyone else who could fall/trip/? (don't remember the exact word) as gracefully as Elijah, and I mentioned Donald O'Connor as a possible equivalent. A bit different in that DO's pratfalls were usually part of dance numbers, but he was still one of those people who can pretend to be a klutz--which does takes talent :) .

Mariole, thanks for setting me straight. Objectivitiy? I don't need no stinking objectivity!

In fact today I went to see "Spy Kids 3D," just to see 90 seconds of Elijah, and I didn't maintain a shred of objectivity. I was quite verbily un-objective! Luckily there was only one other person there, a woman of a certain age. Wonder if she was there for EJW or maybe Ricardo Montalban, or even Antonio Banderas? (I gotta say that I don't see what any one sees in two of the three mentioned above, but to each her own!:D)

Thanks you, Maeglian for posting that adorable picture of Frolijah and Seanwise! It's so sweet to see the friendship they have!
:k Makes me very hopeful for RoTK!

Sorry no big insights, but you all know better than to expect much from me anyhow!

Honey!

Again. What is wrong about two guys having a close friendship?

I heard that Elijah asked this question and was answered with Stoney Silence. What does this tell Us?

Originally posted by Maeglian:
Blossom - are you planning to buy the Extended Edition TTT once it is released? (Unsubtle hint, I know )
____________________________________________

Maeg - OF COURSE! Even though we can't really afford it. So hubby and I may have to go without food for a few days - who cares? Well, hubby does, but he'll get over it.:)

Love that adorable Elijah & Sean pic you posted Maeg. It's well worth a visit to Hugs Haven to catch more of those. Thanks Hobmom.

Welcome to The Faculty Lounge, Merewyn. Please de-lurk more often. It will be interesting to see how this 'son of a circus strong-man role' turns out. Your theory of 'The Mighty Atom' sounds fascinating.

Honeyelf - I love Try 17. I love Elijah as Jones. Mariole's right. Down with objectivity!

Originally posted by SCS:
Again. What is wrong about two guys having a close friendship?
___________________________________________

Absolutely nothing. :)

Bye.

Again. What is wrong about two guys having a close friendship?

Shadowcat, absolutely nothing! I think our society has made it very difficult for guys to be close though. Think of all that "lone wolf," "strong, silent" pap we've been fed for years. I can only speak from my own experience of course, and point out my husband whom, at the age of 42 has no close male friends, and is only beginning to form a loose knit group of male friends at all. And it's not out of shyness for him, only a sense that he is responsible ALONE for everyone around him, and therefore does not take the time to build friendships, because he's got to be the big MAN. And then of course there are the kind of folk who will start looking side-long at any two guys who do manage to be close like they've done with our favorite hobbit actors. So stupid and sad, I say. For me that is a big part of the appeal of LoTR, the hobbits in general, and Frodo and Sam in particular. Elijah said it best: "Quite simply it is love. It is the unconditional love that says, regardless of what you do or where you go, I will always be there for you." One thing I hope to see come out of this movie series is a change, where men can begin to look to the benefits close friendships with other men can provide.

Honey!

Finally have a moment to drop in and *say* something! I have been fighting with the ether to get my new sig added, based on that LA Times article. Hope it shows up!

Count me as one of the fans of All I Want! Who needs objectivity? :) Still haven't seen Spy Kids III, though I will as soon as it is available in DVD.

Fascinating poster of the Circus Strongman. The son of a guy like that is not exactly the kind of role that I was hoping EW would take, but I will reserve judgment and hope that it has some interesting possibilities. As for Einstein, according to one poster over at the IMDB the whole Picasso at the Lapin Agile project is dead in the water. If so, too bad.

((Sheryl)) Hope you can find the time to see the EE!

Wonderful discussion (and gif's) of Weathertop, hobbits and swords, colleagues. :k

::: tiptoes in and puts paper bag over head :::

Ahem. I'm new. I hope you don't mind that I'm joining your discussion.

I'm to danged old to be smitten by a kid EW's age, but the movies and especially Frodo absolutely knocked me off my feet. EW is an incredibly beautiful kid ("beautiful" used to also be used to describe men before it became Not Done), and in the movies he was made to look even more beautiful. Filming through gauze and that cute velvet outfit didn't hurt. Plus he held his own in a very big story against some Very Good Actors.

quote:Again. What is wrong about two guys having a close friendship?

Nothing. In the US (don't know about anywhere else - I live here), the whole gay issue is so pervasive, whether people are for or against, that I feel like there's no way around men being categorized one way or another by someone. The gays of my acquaintance just ignore the whole taboo about male bonding, but the only male bonding that seems to be allowed for hetero men is football players patting each other on the posterior, or the guys who got into Hunter-Gatherer mode after Isabel, who were out with their chain saws sawing up trees together and yelling "HO!" at intervals.

quote:
I think our society has made it very difficult for guys to be close though. Think of all that "lone wolf," "strong, silent" pap we've been fed for years.

Tolkien wrote his book in a different century, in a different country and culture, where I think masculinity was defined differently. Does anyone really think that Leslie Howard or John Mills would be cast in major romantic roles in the US? If you look at heroes in British literature (and I don't know that many especially recently), they're entirely different from heroes in American literature.

Viggo is a definite draw in LoTR, but EW's role and performance is in no way diminished by Viggo's strong silent disillusioned role. Though even Aragorn sang, which seems to be Not Done by ordinary guys anymore.

As for the four Hobbit actors becoming close friends - I think that an actor changes a role, and the role changes the actor. LotR was an immense, intense experience for them all - I read Sir Ian McK's notes recently and even he, who has been around forever, was blown away. How could a bunch of kids in their late teens and early 20's fail to be affected by the story? The four Hobbits and especially Frodo and Sam went to Heck and back and their relationship reflected that. I can well believe that it rubbed off on the actors.

Besides, they were in a huge playground, and didn't have family and friends around them. What were they supposed to do - form serious relationships with local women, then leave after 15 months? Without those friendships, I'm sure they would have been unbelievably lonely. (would you send *your* 17-year-old to a country on the other side of the world for a couple of years?)

quote: One thing I hope to see come out of this movie series is a change, where men can begin to look to the benefits close friendships with other men can provide.

Amen to that.

Though if there really is Frodo/Sam slash out there, I'm putting a copy of LotR (book) under each arm and jumping out my window. Oh - wait - I live on the first floor. <g>

Best regards to all,

zkgrumpy
(OK - ok - I'm smitten!)

*draws a smiley face on zkgrumpy's paper bag*

Welcome to the Faculty, zkgrumpy! All EW adoration is welcome here, especially when it's backed by such nice compliments for our beloved young man, and such clever observations as "guys who got into Hunter-Gatherer mode after Isabel, who were out with their chain saws sawing up trees together and yelling "HO!" at intervals." :D It reminds me of Dave Barry's hysterical book Complete Guide to Guys: A Fairly Short Book. He describes the difference between "men" and "guys" with a helpful table (examples: Men=Doberman Pinscher, Guy=Labrador retriever. Men=Germany, Guy=Italy) and short comparisons. For example:

There is a lovely river in the wilderness.
Woman's reaction: Appreciate its beauty.
Man's reaction: Build a dam.
Guy's reaction: See who can pee the farthest off the dam.

Which I guess isn't directly related to the topic at hand, but your statements about men reminded me of his "male bonding" section describing a commercial where men rescue a barge, and then get drunk in a manly way. What the commercial does not show, he maintains, is what happens after the men are drunk and start snickering and then sneak out to let the barge go so they can rescue it again. (Although I would like to think that Aragorn would not behave this way, he just might.)

More seriously, I am very fortunate in that I have a very enlightened group of friends where the male members do show affection physically for each other. They hug and occasionally wrestle in a goofy way and they will cry together. I think the breakthrough came for us after one of our very dear friends died of leukemia, a complication that arose from Weggoner's Granulomatosis. We all went to college together, and none of us was ready to lose a friend at the untimely age of 40. My friends (a quite intelligent and enlightened bunch, not that I'm prejudiced! :)) decided that life was too short to go around not showing people how much we meant to each other. My friend Mark lives on in the memories of his friends and the caring we make sure to show each other.

That said, there is quite a bit of gay hysteria that seems to become more or less important based on where you live, or perhaps who you hang with. I wish it would all go away and we could all just love one another. But -- sorry, speaking of loving one another, I'm afraid there is quite a bit of Frodo/Sam slash out there. But it didn't seem to hurt poor Captain Kirk being slashed with Spock (or perhaps I should say "Poor Spock" :p). Characters who've made a difference in people's lives inspire all sorts of fantasy material. I'm confident, particularly in Tolkien's case, that the original material will live on quite happily on its own merits.

Well, enough blathering from me, and glad you could join us!

There's a lot of Frodo/Sam slash out there, and a lot of it is very good. :)

And some of it is very bad! :eek:

None of that negates the excellent points you make in your impressive first post, zkgrumpy. :)

Could not agree more with you about heterosexual men being deprived of male bonding. :cool:

As for my occasional presence in this thread, I happen to think that Elijah Wood is a most engaging young man. ;)

And I am very grateful that he played Frodo. :)

Welcome, zkg!! :)

Pearl, I don't mind tying up some heterosexual men to end their bonding deprivation.

I don't believe I said that and I'd better leave this civilised place and get back to the Harem!

Don't worry, Niphy, this place is less civilized than you may think. I'm about to demonstrate, as follows:

I've been comparing again. I couldn't help it. Here were all these adorable pics of hobbits -- I mean actors -- in the park, and comparisons to their fictional counterparts just kept emerging.

For example, consider the noble cast of Elwood's head as he gazes into the distance:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/resolve.jpg


Or his propensity to be surrounded by giant fingers:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hands.jpg


There are also all those places he likes to hang out. To wit, under trees:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/fire.jpg


or in caves:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/cave.jpg


or at the Forbidden Pool:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/pool.jpg


There are also some habits that he and Sean have obviously picked up together, such as watching for Wood Elves:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/elves.jpg


Or reaching one hand into his jacket while the two of them are trying to hide:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/ctj.jpg


In short, I do believe that zkgrumpy was correct when she suggested that this movie may have had a significant impact on the lives of the actors, particularly the younger ones such as Elwood who were going through this fantastically liminal experience. Here he was, 18-to-20 years old, with a large role in shaping the first-ever "simulsequel" trilogy plus having such moving subject material to work with. I'm delighted that a bit of it appears to have stayed with him. Good work, boys! :p

===
Okay, because I had nothing of value to say, I'll post to link to a fascinating article about Tolkien and commercialism -- really an intriguing read:

http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2003/11/16/lord_of_the_gold_ring/

Mariole, ROFL!! Great comparisons!

Okay, folks, rev up the VCR's!! Elijah, Sean and Billy (I think) are scheduled to appear Wednesday Nov 19 on MTV's TRL show. Check your local listings!

And scoot on over to TORn to see some good reasons to buy the next Premiere magazine. :)

((faculty)) You’re all such a modest bunch:

Skgrumpy-I hope we hear from you again the next time you feel paper bag-worthy (or not). “Nice to see you, welcome, welcome”! Wonderful first post.

Merewyn-The next time you feel a dizzy spell coming on, chime in! Great read!

Mariole-I‘m glad you wrote despite having “nothing to say” (although I fear for PJ’s Frodo in RotK if that’s really Frodo at the Forbidden Pool ;)).
That whole set should go on the “send to Elijah” DVD!


((faculty))

P.S. I found an (at least temporary) cure for RotK worry:
Step 1: get your Fellowship DVD out.
Step 2: briefly familiarize yourself with the identity of the director and main actors.
Step 3: settle down with a glass of your favorite wine.
Step 4: Start the movie and ENJOY!
Caution: if you feel a panic attack coming on, say at the Wizard fight, the orc pods, Weathertop (for some people) or the Ford, click to the next scene, take a sip of wine and lose yourself again in the “#1 DVD of all time”.
Step 5: familiarize yourself again with the identity of the director, actors, SFX, costume designer, etc.
Hint: Avoid the twitch-worthy parts of The Two Towers.
Repeat as often as necessary.

Well, it worked for me. :)

Of course, part of the fun, as long as you don't have a heart condition, is the worry and fret and concern and discussion and ANTICIPATION!

:k to peaceweaver

kuduk

Maeglian,
You know, I really intended to bounce off of your Weathertop observations last time and say something new, but I went wandering off into the Imladris Faculty thread looking for something, then I came back and just restated your position. :p Bah. Never did find what it got me thinking of - I suspect it got et in the move to the Pony.

Welcome, zkgrumpy!

Mariole,
Love your comparison shots!

Sheryl reads the (most interesting) Tolkien commercialism article Mariole links to, then clutches her LOTR mugs protectively. :D

I'm not convinced that commercialisation per se can really "ruin" something, but I do think overexposure can. You see something so often you don't see it anymore. But to some extent that's personal choice - we insulate ourselves from the media pretty much and so have more control over our own exposure. Some people *like* the overexposure thing - they get more excited if something is popular. :confused: Whatever.

I also think part of the reason people were disappointed with TTT is that they didn't expect much of FOTR. I sure didn't - I was sure it was going to be hopelessly bad - then they were blown away when FOTR was as good as it was. But they expected TTT to be incredible, which set the bar higher somehow. And, since TTT is the middle of the story, it doesn't have such a natural "pay off" as FOTR did (PJ did give FOTR a solid pay-off, but he has to work with what he has - I dunno *how* TTT could have ended to have the same amount of power as FOTR, just from the structure of the story; the first book is independent from the rest of the story in a way the second book isn't).

I wonder if people will look back and see TTT as better than they initially thought, because there are so many more threads in TTT that really won't be finished until ROTK. It wasn't possible to give the end of TTT the feeling of closure that FOTR could have, because FOTR *does* end with a definite change and redirection - TTT doesn't have that. The travels of the Fellowship as a unit ends with Amon Hen, so even though the story continues there's a definite feeling of "change" at the end of FOTR. The end of TTT, you're much more aware that you haven't seen it all yet, somehow. It just doesn't have a feeling of completeness that FOTR had, which I think detracted from it some.

Have to see if ROTK proves me wrong or not. :p

I plan to handle my ROTK worry by perusing the Extended version of TTT. This "release the extended version a month before the movie" thing is kind of annoying, though - I've hardly begun to absorb the new scenes and all the behind-the-scenes stuff and I've got a whole new movie to deal with. I think the Extended versions get a little short-changed. There's *so* much to deal with. (Despite that, I am shocked, shocked, that Bridget hasn't listened to the FOTR commentary tracks yet!)

Why is it my "nothing to say" posts are so much more boring than everybody else's? *sulks*

Sheryl

No merit, indeed! Wash your over-modest mouth out with soap, young lady! ;) Or strawbverry ince-cream - that works just as well. :)

What lovely pics and comparisons!! The scary and uncanny thing is that expression and posture-wise, the Forbidden Pool one is actually the closest! :eek:

That wicked pair HAD to be doing it on purpose - the comparisons are too close for accident! Or have they simply absorbed (Film-) Frodo and Sam so thoroughly? Probably the latter.

How long to SE TTT? It comes out on the 18th, right?

(((((Shilohm & Faculty)))))

Originally posted by shilohmm
(Despite that, I am shocked, shocked, that Bridget hasn't listened to the FOTR commentary tracks yet!)

I've listened to three of the four, okay? And I've listened to the cast one *three* times, I'll have you know!;) It's just the Post-Production one I haven't gotten around to.:o Yet.

Mariole: wonderful comparisons.:D I did think "Forbidden Pool!" when I first saw the pics, but I never would have seen the other similarities without your expert guidance.:cool: :D

Niphy - yeah, the DVD's released on the 18th. bounce bounce!

Welcome to zkg :cool: !

And a Happy Birthday to juliebeth :) (who I swear I saw around here somewhere :confused: )!

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Regarding the DVDs, I consider them a lifetime project--you know, like reading HoMe :p . There's a lot of stuff I haven't watched on the initial three releases--somehow, I just keep wanting to watch the movies... :) But I plan to keep at it, so five years from now (I assume the kid will be making enough movies that we'll still be having this discussion five years from now :p ) when I bring up something everyone else has already forgotten about, you'll know why ;) .

Wonderful posts, pics, and gifs! I'm keeping up with my reading here, even though RL is interfering with my posting. Not so much lack of time as lack of brain--it keeps running off as if it has more important things to do :confused: . I've been doing a bit of mindless stuff, in the midst of which I ran across this--am I the only one who completely missed this expression in Moria!?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/capA3046-85-crop.jpg

Yeah, I lurk here, seldom post. Y'all are way too clever for me!

((( faculty )))

re Dave Barry reference: ROFL!!!! You know, that image of guys doing male bonding by yelling "HO" actually came from a Dave Barry column in the Sunday paper back in the late 80's/early 90's. I kept it for a very long time. It became such a standing joke for my sister and me that I'd forgotten where it came from. Shame on me. Consider it attributed to Dave Barry.

Re: Commercialism: It kept me from seeing ET until about a year ago. It kept me from seeing Star Wars until about 2 years after it came out. It kept me from seeing TTT in theaters last year. I hate it. (I want Sting for Christmas)Hate it!(or at least the Sting letter opener)I hate it, I say!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pearl
There's a [B]lot of Frodo/Sam slash out there, and a lot of it is very good. :) And some of it is very bad! :eek:

I read slash at one point; some of the very good and some very bad. I guess I just got tired of it. I'd prefer to think of the relationship between the Hobbits as intense friendship, like people form in battle. After all, it was a battle situation.

I think the problem I'd have with Frodo/Sam slash is that we have canon for the characters in the form of a very thick book. Personally, I wouldn't dare go up against that - it would be like rewriting Dorothy Sayers.

(We *do* know from the book that Sam and Rosie did it at least once. )

quote: None of that negates the excellent points you make in your impressive first post, zkgrumpy. :)

Awwwwww, shuckins. :::: blushing :::::

Can I talk about a scene in detail? Actually, it's a thread that I see throughout the movie. Tolkien always said that he didn't write an allegory, but if you go by "write what you know", the implications of what he knew is pretty terrifying. IIRC, he served in WWI: five years of useless, agonizing slaughter in hideous conditions accompanied by endless shelling.

Frodo and Bilbo strike me as "gentry" - a cut above families like Sam's in social status and wealth. ;) So imagine sheltered young gentlemen in 1914 going off to war "...in a patriotic fever with the cold steel on their backs..." (So I'm dating myself with Gordon Lightfoot!). They had no idea what they were heading into and like Gandalf, their elders didn't enlighten them. I try to imagine what they must have felt like when they got to the reality of the trenches.

The moment that I'm thinking of is after the Hobbits hid from the RingWraith (say that 20 times very fast) under the tree root. After they ran away, Frodo stopped by a tree with an expression on his face that shows what it must have felt like to those kids when the shells started falling. I've seen some talk about micro-expressions here. The expression that EW did in that scene showed the moment when words like "Enemy", "stay off the road", "the power of the Ring" finally became real. Before that moment, terror was a fairly academic concept to Frodo. In that moment, having just had his first taste of real danger, and seeing his will and control over his own actions slip away, he changed forever. Talk about acting with eyebrows. Watching EW, you could almost hear Frodo's heart pounding and feel the sweat on his hands and how he'd feel like he was suffocating. All through some body language and an expression.

zkgrumpy (the kid *does* have the most marvelous eyebrows, doesn't he?)

I think Lij's "Eyebrow Acting" is already a respected subgenre of the Faculty thread! (At least, it's been noted somewhere before!)

I think even nostril acting has been mentioned!

;)

Well, I was going to drop this off in the Harem, but it's kind of late, so if you're lurking here anyhow...

Happy Birthday, Juliebeth!

Didn't get you a cake, because I liked this (hope it works!).

http://www.kidspartyplanet.com/img97.gif

Just about as mesmerizing as Ezzie's avatar. :) And we are not too clever for you - I always enjoy your posts, where ever I run across them.

Originally posted by tgshaw
Regarding the DVDs, I consider them a lifetime project--you know, like reading HoMe :p . There's a lot of stuff I haven't watched on the initial three releases--somehow, I just keep wanting to watch the movies... :) But I plan to keep at it, so five years from now (I assume the kid will be making enough movies that we'll still be having this discussion five years from now :p ) when I bring up something everyone else has already forgotten about, you'll know why ;) .

The nice thing about the Extended DVDs is that we really will be mining them for years. And the nice thing about *all* the movies is that someone can bring up something I hadn't noticed (or had forgotten), and I have an excuse to watch it all over again. :p There's always something new!

Speaking of which - zkgrumpy, I was delighted with your discussion of the "Get off the road!" sequence, and then that moment where Frodo's hanging on to the tree. You're so right, but I never put words to it! I also love that shot because of the way Merry comes up to kind of confront him - there's so little interaction between Frodo and Merry, but it is all so right to me. So much is said between those two without words.

peaceweaver,
Thanks for mentioning that article at TORn. You're right, I'm going to have to own a copy of that magazine! What fun those pictures are! Sighs happily.

Sheryl

Interesting pic in the ROTK spoiler thread if you are so inclined and aren't staying spoiler free.

Just letting you know.

Ariel

Originally posted by shilohmm
Just about as mesmerizing as Ezzie's avatar.


Ooo, I thought my ears were buzzing. :)


I also love that shot because of the way Merry comes up to kind of confront him - there's so little interaction between Frodo and Merry, but it is all so right to me. So much is said between those two without words.

Yeah, give us more Frodo/Merry interaction PJ, or non-interaction - like Sheryl said. :D Unfortunately the most Frodo/Merry interaction was in book FOTR, and there's no getting that anymore. :rolleyes:

Sorry, why do I find the new spoiler pix in the ROTK thread more amusing than angsty? ;)

Hi, everyone! I've been comparing again! But first:

tg, yes, I have contemplated the beauty of that particular Moria moment many a time in the peacefulness of my home. My DVD player broke about a year after I got it. My personal theory is that it was due to all the slo-mo I'd been making it do! :D Fortunately it was still under warrantee. I plan to wear it out on the EE of TT as soon as possible.

Speaking of which, Sheryl, I think you speak wisely. I think TT will only be successfully evaluated after the final movie is out and we can see the complete unfolding of PJ's adaptation. That said, FOTR is a prettier movie. I think it will always have a loyal audience.

Bridget, regarding the commentaries, I did enjoy the post-production track, particularly Howard Shore's comments on the score. That lovely swell of music at the end, beginning at Frodo's decision on the banks of the Anduin and building to when he and Sam set out alone, is called "Frodo's theme." It makes it all the more special to me that that gorgeous piece of music was written expressly for Frodo's character. Of all the tracks, I did not enjoy PJ's commentary. He gave away far too much; I don't know, it somehow reduced the magic for me. So I don't want to listen to his comments again until I'm quite happily burned out on ROTK. At that point, I might be ready to hear some of his more objective, spoilerish comments.

Also appreciating your description of the Ringwraith scene, zkgrumpy. Yes, he has marvelous eyebrows. And other parts as well! ;)

Okay, on to more pictures. Niph, I punished myself with peanut-butter ice cream -- was that harsh enough? :p I feel like I'm getting away with something. Yea, comparisons! So, here are some tremendously overdue Huck pics. I'd planned to do these before my last contract. So thank you, picture submitters, for your extreme patience! Here's a sample:


Huck maintains his distance against an overpowering foe.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hback.jpg


He is moved by compassion when no one else is.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hcomp.jpg


Huck decides it is time to leave.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hgo.jpg


A wounded Huck is carried to safety by his dearest friend -- ROTK spoiler pic!
http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hjim3.jpg


There are more pics on the Huck Finn Froshadowing page. Enjoy!

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/frohuck.html

Ariel's right.

There's a really incredible spoiler pic that deserves serious and continuing study.


OK.... here it is if you want to peek....


SPOILER.....


CU Frodo (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/gorbagsprey.jpg)

Welcome, Zkg! :) Loved the post about Ringwraith-shocked Frodo. You're very right. Utterly convincing acting.


I am surprised to find that the CU spoiler pic doesn't really send me into delirious anticipatory squee-land. :confused:

A couple of spoilery comments on picture....
*
*

I think it's because Frodo's just lying there, - even with an orc bending over him, I think, - there seems to be little in that one shot of the extremely expressive and haunting Frodo-acting so very evident in other Mordor pictures. The pain, fear and suffering conveyed in pictures such as The Poster, or in the recent one of Frodo crawling through the dust, take hold of my heart and squiches it *every* time I see them. Again and again.

Oh, I can't wait to see Elijah do some real emoting of despair and fear at CU!

*Then* you'll be hearing me produce loud incoherent noises. :o

And OK, he's wearing trousers, I think. So that takes care of *that* issue! :D

*
*
End somewhat spoilery comments


Mariole, I loved the comparisons! Especially the Elijah and Sean ones. Too great, too funny! :k


I've stated my opinion in the Frodo/Sam slash question in great detail :rolleyes: before, so I won't repeat myself too much. However, one of my absolute favourite fanfics is Teasel's "On Gorgoroth Plain" which gives a glimpse of the very last stages of Frodo and Sam's trek to Mt. Doom, with some simple but very moving and haunting imagery. Teasel herself says of the fic that it can be read as either slash or gen, but that "at that point in the journey, the question hardly seems relevant". I think that's in some ways equally true of the book at that point. The question isn't relevant, - there are entirely other matters at stake.

And while I very firmly believe Tolkien didn't intend for any such interpretation at all, I can't see any problem in modern readers and fanfic writers exploring the slash possibility as well. The love and enjoyment of the book itself and its characters is not diminished either way.


On to another topic that's been mentioned here (I'm finding it hard to keep up, these days :o ) about liking FotR better than TTT. I do. I like FotR better than TTT. And I was feeling a little exasperated with myself, because TTT is *such* a wonderful film, and (apart from Sam's annoying UN speech) I have no quibbles with any of the Frodo/Sam portrayal or storyline anymore. Being honest with myself, I realized that I love FotR more for 3 main reasons:

1) FotR is filled from beginning to end with the fabulously expressive acting (and fantastic looks) of one Elijah Wood, while his scenes in TTT are fewer and far between.

2) FotR has Sean Bean's Boromir.

3) FotR has the beauty and grandeur of Rivendell and Lothlorien. TTT has the grubby dwellings and the dirt and squalor of the fleeing populace of Rohan.

Yes, I know, this probably sounds extremely shallow? But it's that mix of somewhat irrational stuff and character- and- location preferences that get into play and result in the noticable difference between the 2 films in my affections, nevertheless. It'll be interesting to see whether the EE TTT changes that at all.


Niphy - yeah, the DVD's released on the 18th. bounce bounce! Well, not everywhere. In some countries, the failure of packing machinery leads to delay of the EE TTT going on sale almost to the end of November. One of those countries happens to be mine. :mad: I'm totally bummed. Especially since the week following the new late release date is impossibly hectic in RL, with little to no time to watch the DVD. :( I've ordered the darn thing from the UK. If it arrives sometimes next week, that'll be great. If it doesn't, you'll know the reason that I'm totally absent from discussions. I think I'll try as best I can to stay away from "reading all about it" until I have the DVD myself.

Mariole-beautiful, beautiful froshadows (and thanks for linking to your page, I enjoyed them all, especially the Pieta to Jim and Huck).

Maeg--did you read my mind about FotR? Elijah, Sean Bean, Rivendell and Lothlorien. The other day when I watched it for the first time in a long time it struck me how eloquently Frolijah shows each point at which his innocent, though adventurous, hobbit heart is chipped away at. Truly beautiful and heartbreaking.

SPOILER COMMENT:







Re the CU pic: I don't think that's the whole story (meaning the trousers), given that we've heard that Sam's "naught" line is in.

RL calls.

*Popping in again, hoping not to disturb anyone...*

zkgrumpy... thank you! Very nice post. You reflect my opinion (and experience) though I have learned that even a moderate coment like that will garner you 'Enemies'. *sigh*

Didn't see trousers, Maeglian. I took the 'not quite' comment to mean possibly a pair of hobbit boxers :p or something like that... which would still convey the same level of degredation without compromising the PG-13 rating...

*Popping out again before anyone has a chance to chase her away with a broom....*

Originally posted by Niphredil
I think Lij's "Eyebrow Acting" is already a respected subgenre of the Faculty thread! (At least, it's been noted somewhere before!)

I think even nostril acting has been mentioned!

;)
Heavens, yes!! And don't forget jawline acting (which leads directly to skinfold analysis), and... what was the name of that wonderful muscle in the neck (I was going to put it into the glossary but couldn't find the name :o )?

Mariole--Thanks for the link to your Froshadowings. Great stuff :) !! With all the ones you've come up with, this may not be quite as spooky as it seems to me--but last night I was working on December website stuff and for the "Froshadowing of the month" chose exactly the two frames you have from The Faculty and "The Taming of Smeagol" on the main page! Needless to say, I won't use it now (even though I swear on the FotR SE DVD that I came up with it completely independently :p !). I've been thinking about dropping that monthly Froshadowing, because I'm afraid I'll run out of original ones to show. I might just add a link to yours--if that's okay with you :) ; I don't know how widespread you want the link.

---------------

zkg--Would you believe there's an entire book available on Tolkien and the Great War? I think that may be a bit more than I want to know on the subject :( . I see the effect of the experience more in the characters' emotions than in actual events--his knowing how people really feel in those situations. [Continued below spoiler warning]




BIG RotK Book Spoilers







Merry's reaction to Theoden's death is one place I always think of Tolkien's war experience. And I've read that the way JRRT describes the dead Southron falling into Frodo and Sam's hiding place--the incident that makes Sam reflect on the humanness of the enemy--is exactly how a German soldier would have fallen into a British trench. Some people have compared Frodo and Sam's relationship during the trek across Mordor to that of a British officer and... can't remember the name, but a specific soldier who would have been assigned to him (maybe I should read that book :rolleyes: ).

But the moment when I find myself most caught up into Tolkien's reality--that of a young man, barely out of his teens, involved in a war that kills every close friend of his except one--is, "It must often be so, Sam, when things are in danger: some one has to give them up, lose them, so that others may keep them." Over the years, I've come to a point where I grieve more for Tolkien's loss than for Frodo's when I read that passage. I can't imagine that JRRT didn't have his friends in mind when he wrote it. And, IMVHO, one reason Tolkien's writing in situations like that touches us so deeply is that the characters' emotions are real. He didn't have to do "historical research" or interview war veterans to decide how they would feel--he just had to follow his own heart. (And now, after 34 years of reading Tolkien and countless trips through LotR, I'm starting to cry. What other author can do that? And ain't it grand?)







End of RotK Book Spoilers



Tolkien was in the trenches at the Somme, but he didn't spend the entire five years of the War in battle--he was sent home with "trench fever" and went through a long recuperation, during which he did one little thing to pass the time... began writing about Middle-earth :) .


Originally posted by zkgrumpy
The expression that EW did in that scene showed the moment when words like "Enemy", "stay off the road", "the power of the Ring" finally became real. Before that moment, terror was a fairly academic concept to Frodo. In that moment, having just had his first taste of real danger, and seeing his will and control over his own actions slip away, he changed forever. Talk about acting with eyebrows. Watching EW, you could almost hear Frodo's heart pounding and feel the sweat on his hands and how he'd feel like he was suffocating. All through some body language and an expression.
And after what I've just said about Tolkien getting the characters' emotions "true" because of his own experience, we again come up against Elijah's acting--which is so "true" it makes us feel the emotion ourselves, even when it's one that he's never experienced. How does he do it?

-------------

And I have to add one more thing to the list of what FotR has that TTT doesn't: The Shire.

I think PJ must love the Shire; there was so much time and effort put into getting it exactly right--and IMHO they did. When Gandalf's cart comes over the hill... ah, bliss. The scenes in the Shire are the ones where I most feel I'm actually inside the reality of the book. And Bag End is perfect--inside and out.

Finally (yes, really ;) ): zkg--Actually, we know Sam and Rosie did it at least 13 times :) :p . But you may have to go to the appendices to find that out ;) .

It’s hard (correction: not so hard, knowing of you guys) to believe how many beautiful and fascinating posts there have been over the past week or so. I too am finding it hard to keep up, Maeg ….. And as for those hilarious comparipics – thank you mariole !!!! :k

And thank you Tg for all the wonderful screencaps and commentaries on EW's other films: I've finally had a proper look at your site and I love it. Froshadowings live! Not sure if you've featured the one that makes me gasp every time I see it: it's a shot of 12-year-old EW in "The Good Son" that looks so Frodo-like, right down to the lighting, it's uncanny. Will do a screencap once I've mastered the technique (expect it in about 2005 ;) ).
Incidentally, Tg, I made that remark earlier about North being a real boy lost in a forest of cartoon monsters without havng seen your site - honest! Seems we think alike ...

Welcome zkgrumpy!! Looking forward to many more posts from you. Particularly liked this one:

From zkgrumpy:
After they ran away, Frodo stopped by a tree with an expression on his face that shows what it must have felt like to those kids when the shells started falling. I've seen some talk about micro-expressions here. The expression that EW did in that scene showed the moment when words like "Enemy", "stay off the road", "the power of the Ring" finally became real. Before that moment, terror was a fairly academic concept to Frodo. In that moment, having just had his first taste of real danger, and seeing his will and control over his own actions slip away, he changed forever. Talk about acting with eyebrows. Watching EW, you could almost hear Frodo's heart pounding and feel the sweat on his hands and how he'd feel like he was suffocating. All through some body language and an expression.

Lovely description. This raises a point I’m sure has been discussed here may times before: how so many people – including some so-called film critics (see below) – can claim to have watched FOTR and still come away with the impression that Elijah Wood “had only one expression” (the “deer in the headlights” one, of course) or “didn’t do much acting” or “did nothing but cry”. I’ve read quite a few comments to that effect on the Internet from self-appointed reviewers and even from the occasional genuine one (attached to a reputable publication). I’ve also heard it from certain acquaintances or colleagues who should know better. Happily, these comments are a small minority, but they still make me wonder what on earth these people thought they were watching. But perhaps there is an explanation: Elwood’s acting is actually too good. It’s so good that it sometimes goes unnoticed, even by those whose job it is to notice. I came away from watching FOTR the first and second times dazzled by Frolijah (and still thinking he was English!), and it took me some time to realise quite how much acting had gone into that role: EW had made it all seem so natural that I’d thought Frodo and Elijah were one. (As has often been said here, he disappears into the characters he plays, and that was true even of the supremely difficult role of Frodo.)

There are other factors too: most of the other LOTR actors were well-established in adult roles; Elwood was known by the vast majority only for his childhood acting, if at all. If you know someone is an established actor, you are usually aware of the extent of the acting; if not, you might assume the person was acting himself (as some of course do). Then there are Elwood’s looks: they are so striking that I suspect that is all some people remember about him. They come away with one image of him in their heads: the enormous blue eyes staring in amazement or terror. Overall that probably is the most frequent type of Frodo shot in FOTR: PJ said how much he loved doing close-ups on Elijah because of his supreme expressiveness, and so that face, so perfectly mirroring the events, appears again and again 20 feet high on the screen. EW’s face must have been God’s gift to the director, because it often tells the story better and more succinctly than could be done by showing it directly. And yet, paradoxically, all that focusing on Frolijah’s face (I adore it – don’t get me wrong!) may have done Elwood a disservice by distracting some of the audience from other aspects of his characterisation: that is all they remember, so they think that is all there was. (Not that I’d cut one second of it, of course – but then I have noticed the rest as well ….)

So when I said a while back that I’d be happy to see Elwood’s destiny diverge just a little from that of Frodo, I didn’t mean that I wanted him to be dissociated from Frodo – far from it. I meant that I’d be happy to see Elwood, unlike Frodo, gain the recognition he deserves for his enormous achievement.

All that being said, I thought I’d try to find some good German reviews of EW’s acting (Whiteling said a while back that she’d seen hardly any as enthusiastic as those in English). Here are some I’ve found (my translations, I'm afraid ;) ):

Elijah Wood wirkt in seiner Rolle als Hobbit Frodo mehr als glaubhaft, was vor allem an seiner ausdrucksstarken Mimik liegt. -- Ciao.com
Elijah Wood comes over as more than believable in his role as the hobbit Frodo, and that is due above all to his strongly expressive acting.

Da sei (sic) Frodo Beutlin vor, ein junger, schüchterner Hobbit, den der Schauspieler Elijah Wood so überzeugend verkörpert, als sei er selbst nicht von dieser, sondern von einer ganz anderen Welt. --- Dietmar Kanthak, epd.de
Then there is Frodo Baggins, a shy young hobbit embodied so convincingly by the actor Elijah Wood that he himself seems to be not of this world, but of an entirely different one.

Hinzu kommt die großartige Besetzung: Elijah Wood ist ein hinreißender Frodo, Ian McKellen als weiser Zauberer Gandalf schlichtweg grandiose. -- Prosieben.ch
Added to this is the great casting: Elijah Wood is an enchanting Frodo; Ian McKellen as the wise wizard Gandalf is simply magnificent.

Der 20-jährige Ex-Kinderstar Elijah Wood („Forever Young“, „Der Eissturm“) trägt die Bürde des Hauptdarstellers mit Bravour. Mit großen, glasklaren Augen ist sein Frodo jederzeit glaubhaft. .-- Carsten Baumgardt, filmstarts.de
The 20-year-old former child star Elijah Wood (Forever Young, The Ice Storm) carries the burden of the leading actor with bravura. His Frodo, with his large, crystal-clear eyes, is always believable.

Alle Darsteller, darunter EW und Christopher Lee, behaupten sich in diesem Effekte-Feuerwerk wunderbar gegen Schauwerte, die einem den Atem verschlagen. -- Dvd-datenbank.net and videoland.de
All of the actors, Elijah Wood and Christopher Lee amongst them, hold their own wonderfully in this special-effects spectacular against visual showpieces that take your breath away.

Elijah Wood lässt uns die Verantwortung, die auf diesem kleinen Hobbit liegt, fast körperlich spürbar werden. -- Filmzentrale.com
Elijah Wood makes us feel almost bodily the responsibility weighing on this little hobbit.

Nun, auch hier hat der Regisseur – mit geringen Ausnahmen – den richtigen Griff getan. Allen voran wurde mit Elijah Wood in der Rolle des Hobbits Frodo der angemessene Weg eingeschlagen. -- Emil Kuzmanov, filmkritik.at
Here, too, the director has (with few exceptions) got it right. First and foremost, Elijah Wood in the role of Frodo takes us in the right direction.

Die Schauspieler sind ohne Ausnahme passend besetzt und füllen ihre Rollen mit traumwandlerischer Sicherheit aus, allen voran natürlich Elijah Wood. Er gibt seinem Frodo genau die richtige Mischung aus ängstlichem Zögern und neugieriger Entschlossenheit, er ist der perfekte sanfte Held, der die schwere Bürde seiner Aufgabe nicht aus Sehnsucht nach Ruhm trägt. -- Jörg in Joergskinoecke.de
The actors are appropriately cast without exception and fill their roles with effortless sureness – above all, of course, Elijah Wood. He gives his Frodo exactly the right mixture of timid hesitation and inquisitive determination; he is the perfect gentle hero whose heavy burden of duty is not shouldered out of a lust for glory.

Die Schauspieler: Sie scheinen aus purer Begeisterung alles gegeben zu haben, um das Werk zu etwas Besonderem zu machen. Der vielgelobte Elijah Wood muß meistens kaum mehr tun, als die wundersamen Ereignisse um ihn herum mit naiven, großen blauen Augen staunend zur Kenntnis zu nehmen. Gefordert ist er vor allem in den Szenen, in denen Frodo den Ring auf den Finger zieht, um unsichtbar zu werden, und mit der schrecklichen Erscheinung Saurons konfrontiert wird. Auch diese düsteren Passagen des Films übertreffen das Buch. -- Arno behrend, epilog.de
The actors seem to have given their all out of sheer enthusiasm for turning this work into something extraordinary. The much-praised Elijah Wood usually has little more to do than stare in astonishment with large, naïve blue eyes at the wondrous occurrences around him [see what I mean? – serena]. Most of his acting challenges come in the scenes in which Frodo puts the Ring on his finger to make himself invisible and is faced with the terrifying spectacle of Sauron. These eerie passages in the film outshine those of the book.



More quotes if anyone wants them (and more about slash and the like) next time round ……

Here's a little present for my colleagues! :)

Thank you, Peaceweaver!

Did you all read the full Premiere article over at TORn (nearly over-strained my eyes, but it was worth it). Dom, Billy and Elijah are just such utter ..... guys. :D And they all seem to have taken Mikey Carver's molecule speech *seriously* to heart. :rolleyes:

And the pictures. I loved the pictures.

Is Premiere a UK or US magazine?


Serena, thank you for the German reviews! Great translations, good reading. :)

Wow, great posts this morning, thank you, Faculty! :k

peaceweaver, the thing that I like about that pic (other than the obvious cuteness) is that Sean appears to be walking on his toes -- perhaps to imitate the taller Paul? (Paul should be taller than Ringo; I can't help thinking that Dominic was miscast -- the tallest hobbit as the shortest Beatle!)

Serena, you are a marvel. Thank you for those lovely German quotes, and for your beautiful description of your FOTR viewing experience. That is exactly how I felt: dazzled. I came out of that film just reeling from Elijah's performance. I wondered how the majority of the world was so apparently blind that they missed it. It continues to puzzle me. Fortunately, as a child who grew up in Hollywood, I think Elijah has had plenty of practice dealing with weird or bad or simply wrong reviews, and the confidence to fall back on his body of work. I sincerely hope that is the case. (And I can't believe that PJ did Elijah a disservice with his close-ups. Okay, you're probably right, but I loooooooove those close-ups. More big beautiful face, more expressive eyes, more! ... I guess this is why I'm not a film critic.) :p Seriously, I didn't fall for his beauty, which is (lovely quote): "not of this world, but of an entirely different one," but for his performance. He made me believe the character -- and as I started out mad at him because he was "too young" to play Frodo, this was a coup!

Tg, it's the sterno-cleido-mastoid, originating from the anterior and superior manubrium and superior medial third of clavicle, and inserted into the lateral aspect of the mastoid process and anterior half of superior nuchal line (isn't Google a gas?). It's the neck muscle. :p But there's lots more meat on them bones. Perhaps I really will delve into the acting possibilities of the Adam's apple. Suggestions, anyone? :D

That's a bit spooky that you came up with the exact same Froshadowing for the Faculty (the movie) -- but I suppose it isn't too strange, as I obviously stole your crebain pic to make the comparison! I do love your Froshadows of the month, but if you want to link to my page, I would be honored. :o I don't think there's anything too embarrassing on there! It's just so easy to throw the page on the web after I've got it typed in for K-D, and it helps me remember which pictures are which. I'm always on the lookout for more Froshadowings. I think it must be a sign that I've seen this movie -- well, are we into the triple digits yet? Let me just say, "a number of times." :o

And I am extremely eager to buy the book Tolkien and the Great War. I absolutely believe the reason why LOTR continues to resonate with readers today is the unflinching honesty with which he portrays men at battle. Book spoilers: all those avoiding, drop out now! Tolkien wrote compassionately of the German soldiers condemned to battle with him. I forget which letter, but he explains they were never orcs, he never hated them, not as individuals or people. That was behind Sam's reflections of the fallen Southron. Ditto your remark about the Grey Havens, tg. Yes, this is Tolkien's voice, Tolkien's grief. One of the most touching remarks in the book to me is when Pippin takes his daymeal with the soldiers of Gondor, and they're all excited because of this rumor that the Riders of Rohan will each be carrying a hobbit warrior behind them -- "small maybe, but doughty." The desperation behind this rumor rings so true. People are scared of the upcoming battle. It's not glorious, it's just frightening to the bones. This seemed to me a "real" reaction. That's why I became annoyed at some of Aragorn's "heroics" at the Battle of Helm's Deep -- particularly the ladder-tip into the enemy after Haldir falls. :rolleyes: Tolkien would never have written such foolishness. And Legolas on the "skateboard" -- :rolleyes: I hated it then and I hate it now. In his book, Tolkien never had the warriors of the Fellowship engage the Uruk-Hai directly at Amon Hen because he knew they wouldn't have survived such odds. Boromir engaged them and was killed -- that is what would have happened to them all. Aragorn was on the hill and Legolas and Gimli I assume sniped (Tolkien says they crept through the woods "as if hunting.") I love the Amon Hen sequence in the movie but it is unbelieveable. I forgave it because it made such a good climax and it was, after all, "only a movie." But in Helm's Deep the superhero stunts really began to set my teeth on edge.

Movie spoiler: I'm with Kuduk. I think we'll see a bit more of the Baggins. I'm still holding out for artful shadows, myself. ;)


A couple of newsy items from TORn:

Here's a short article talking about Oscar strategy:
http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~82~1764941,00.html

And here's a longer one talking about upcoming year-end movies:
http://www.suntimes.com/output/entertainment/sho-sunday-xmas16.html

The author of the latter definitely is a Rings fan. Some encouraging quotes:

"I think I should start lining up now. Bring on Frodo and the Gollum," says Paul Walker, who incidentally stars in another year-end flick called "Timeline." Don't tell his own studio, but he can't say enough about the competition. "How many days are left until 'Rings'? If I only had to see one film, I mean, it's a no-brainer," he says.

And here's the author's Frodo-centric anaylsis of "what's nice" about ROTK:
Questions remain: Can poor little Frodo get rid of the ring? Will Middle Earth fold from the dark forces? Will that damn ring corrupt Frodo's mind? Will the Gollum ever work out his mental problems? Will Viggo and Liv prove that human-elf love can go the distance? "I cry when I see some of these scenes because this film is the one," Wood says.

And just because one can't have too much news, here's a cute snippet from A&F:

from Australia's TV Week:
Elijah Wood is having a very public identity crisis. "I just met Daniel Radcliffe (Harry Potter) recently." says the Lord of the rings star. "I said, 'Everybody thinks i'm Harry Potter,' and he replied, 'Everybody thinks i'm Frodo.' That and people confuse me with Tobey Maguire, which i really don't understand."
Yes, all those blue-eyed boys look alike. But it's understandable in Elijah's case, as he and Tobey Maguire are brothers. ;)

Ahem. Elijah is hosting Saturday Night Live on December 13.

akdsjflkdlakjfkjladkfjlakjsdfkj.

Of course, this will be a wonderful opportunity to observe and critique his comedy stylings.

As I said, sdkf;lklsdfk;asldfk;lkdfk;a;lkf;a.

Firstly, a warm welcome to zkgrumpy and adrial. It's great to hear Elijah may be hosting Saturday Night Live, adrial - unfortunately we don't get that here in the UK - sulk!

Mariole - Long live the comparisons. I don't know how you do it - but don't stop.:)

Serena - keep those quotes coming - I love reading them, especially when they're so positive about Frolijah!:)

That article from Premiere magazine over at TORn makes for a great read, Maeg. I know what you mean about the eye-strain, though, but like you, I struggled through to the end. Those hobbit-boys are so great together.

A thought occurred to me over the weekend - it happens occasionally :rolleyes: - Did I read somewhere that Dom said he may be working with Elijah again next year? It struck me that this football hooligan film may be the project in question. I could be wrong - I usually am! Just a thought.

I only popped by to say I JUST GOT THE EXTENDED TWO TOWERS DVD! YIPEE, WHOO-HOO AND ALL THAT!!!:) :) :) Didn't think I'd find it until tomorrow, but I walked into Woolworths and there it was. I may not be around here for a few days, as I intend to immerse myself in Middle-Earth for some considerable time. I am longing to see the new Frodo scenes, more of Elijah in the extras - in fact, I'm outa here right now.

Bye.

Originally posted by Mariole
Yes, all those blue-eyed boys look alike. But it's understandable in Elijah's case, as he and Tobey Maguire are brothers.
With all the "laiasons" going on between those two families, I wouldn't be at all surprised :eek: ;) .

BTW, I'll second all you said about the movie battles. The good thing about Helm's Deep was that they basically followed the course of the battle as laid out by Tolkien, but some of the "extra touches"... :rolleyes:

--------------

Originally posted by Serena
...Not sure if you've featured the one that makes me gasp every time I see it: it's a shot of 12-year-old EW in "The Good Son" that looks so Frodo-like, right down to the lighting, it's uncanny. Will do a screencap once I've mastered the technique (expect it in about 2005 ).
Does that mean you have access to "The Good Son" on DVD!?!! I know it was released on DVD in Britain, but it's never been in region 1 coding for the U.S. and Canada. And, as far as I've been able to find, it's never been released on VCD. :( So no screencaps from me on that one, I'm afraid. But, IIRC, Blossom did a great gif of the "following a barefoot lady wearing a long white garment down a set of stairs while everyone else is asleep" scene :p .

BTW, I've been checking up on the VHS-to-digital transformation process, and it would involve hundreds of dollars worth of equipment that I don't have. That's just not in the budget for my "hobby" (do you realize how many movie tickets that could buy :eek: !?), so I won't be screencapping "Child in the Night," "Paradise," "Radio Flyer," "The Good Son" or "North" any time in the foreseeable future.

Am really enjoying the German reviews, Serena.

-----------------

Wecome to adrial :) -- especially when bringing such good news :) ! I've been hoping to see Elwood host SNL for a long time now--IMHO, it fits his talents perfectly (and, hey, it's stage acting, in front of a live audience ;) ). Could be a good publicity move, actually, since he's probably not going to be doing nearly as many interviews this year--it gets his face and name in front of the public without worrying about "questions that need to be not answered" :p . The announced timing is perfect--just before RotK opens. The only thing I'd wonder is if it would interfere with a premiere somewhere, especially since it takes a full week to put the show together. But he can't be everywhere... and I'm truthfully excited about seeing him on SNL.

Mariole, Thank you for the Huck Frodoshadowing moments! You didn't cap one of my favorites though! It's the look on Huck's face when Jim finally tells him his father is dead. It is so like the look on Frodo's face when Gollum tell's him there is another way into Mordor. It's also one of those 'Blake' moments. The TTT moment I'm talking about is really hard to find on the web. Fortunately I saved it to hard drive if you want it!

OK, I'll admit it! I LIKE the whole Elves at Helms Deep business!!:rolleyes: I love the moment when Haldir is fatally wounded and he looks around him and sees all the fallen elves, men and orcs. Also the moment when he and the other elves all turn to the Prince of Mirkwood in salute. Love those bits!

As for not noticing Elijah right away in FoTR, I didn't! :confused: I remember thinking he was too pretty to be real, and therefore kind of discounting him the first time around. I've never been very good at spotting Good Acting, only the really stinky stuff. It wasn't until my third viewing that I noticed a singular moment. Elijah really sold Frodo to me in that moment when he is standing on the banks of the Anduin. I could REALLY feel what he must be going throught there, and it wasn't the silly voice over either. After that I had to go back and see the whole thing again to see his other wonderful moments. I think now that Elwood has TAUGHT ME what good acting is, and looks like.

Honey!

P.S. Oops, never mind about the Huck Frodoshadowing you missed...I just looked at your web-page! :k

Originally posted by honeyelf
OK, I'll admit it! I LIKE the whole Elves at Helms Deep business!!:rolleyes: I love the moment when Haldir is fatally wounded and he looks around him and sees all the fallen elves, men and orcs. Also the moment when he and the other elves all turn to the Prince of Mirkwood in salute. Love those bits!

Honey--I've pretty much accepted the presence of the Elves at Helm's Deep. They were fighting at the time, after all, just not there. I imagine it was simpler to bring them to Helm's Deep than to explain that the reason they weren't there was that they were fighting their own battles in Lorien and Mirkwood--and, of course, it works as part of the character arc PJ's built for Elrond.

What makes me -- :rolleyes: -- are the gratuitous "action movie" moments that make it seem less realistic (to me, at least). For example, I have a hard time believing that no orc spotted Aragorn and Gimli being hauled up on that rope, because of the amount of time it took. And I'd add the two that Mariole mentioned. Things like that, y'know? OTOH, I think the Elven detachment as a whole is treated quite realistically.

The only thing that makes the battle on Amon Hen seem possible is that the Uruk-hai are just plain stupid! I mean, really stupid! Coming up the stairs in a nice line so Aragorn can whack them off one-by-one... :rolleyes: It does seem that Evil Overlords tend to surround themselves with stupid henchmen--I suppose they're afraid that ones with intelligence would try to take over. :rolleyes:

from honeyelf
You didn't cap one of my favorites though! It's the look on Huck's face when Jim finally tells him his father is dead.
Honeyelf, I'd love to post a comparison pic for you, but I must rely on the charity of others for the source pics. The only cappable movies I own are Chain of Fools, All I Want, FOTR and TTT. Pics for any other movies were either posted here by Faculty members, or found by me on the web. So, if anyone wants to post a cap of Honeyelf's "Pa is dead" moment (or anything else), I'll happily add it to the appropriate comparison page. :)

I actually didn't mind the Elves showing up at Helm's Deep. As so much in the TT movie, it was initially baffling to me, but it didn't change the plot, and I will accept for a movie the need to consolidate characters. So to my mind, Haldir=Erkenbrand. (Yes, I know Eomer takes the role of Erkenbrand at the end, but that's just so Aragorn can become close to the king to, uh, increase the eventual emotion, shall I say?) ;) So yeah, Glorfindel never appeared nor Erkenbrand, but I will accept that in a movie. And, as tg said, the Elves were fighting at the time, just on their own turf. What I didn't like about the elf sequence was Aragorn's stupid orders -- Aragorn is telling Elves how to behave in a fight with orcs? I hardly think so. They're all like, a million years old. If I were an elf, I'd have stuck my foot out and tripped the uppity little tyke off the wall, heh heh heh. But I'm interpreting this as PJ's wish to show Aragorn in a leadership role. Like many of PJ's changes, it doesn't bear up to close analysis (which is why the book is usually always much better than a movie -- particularly in this case, where the author had been mulling these events for years if not decades). But, it's movie shorthand, so I will accept it.

from tgshaw
The only thing that makes the battle on Amon Hen seem possible is that the Uruk-hai are just plain stupid! I mean, really stupid!
Thank you, tg, what a happy thought! And it is rather supported by canon -- Tolkien talks of the Dark Lord's captains driving the orcs in fear before them. So the orcs are, like, really, really stupid, a liability they overcome by sheer numbers. Oh, well. I'll keep my fingers crossed for some realistic battle sequences. The few that I saw in the ROTK trailer were chilling!

Ooh, Blossom, SCORE! I will try not to be petty and suffer extreme envy over your TTT-EE edition. (I did specify try, vs succeed.) :p I have not read any spoilers on the TT-EE for the last 3 weeks or so. I have read no reviews and looked at no sneak peaks, because it's so close and I want to view it fresh. May I please request that the Faculty mark spoilers for this for a while? Mine is coming in the mail -- I wanted to support Amazon.com in being profitable this year, because they're such a lovely service. So I'll have to wait an extra few days beyond folks who pick one up in the store. Thank you, Faculty! :k

Just a short dip into the Faculty....


Originally posted by serena

I thought I’d try to find some good German reviews of EW’s acting (Whiteling said a while back that she’d seen hardly any as enthusiastic as those in English).



Serena, that's great - you taught me better!
Thank you so much (und herzlichen Dank) for those excellent German reviews :k !

When I searched the net for (especially) German LOTR/EW reviews I too ran across a few such mean and grumbling reviews that I gave up totally frustrated, for fear of reading more slating.
Somehow I think, this would be the apt moment to quote Elijah's quote from Shireling's sig:
"There's magic all around us - you just have to search hard."
Yes, and there is good all around us - we just have to search hard ;) ! This is so encouraging... I love his trust in the (often invisible) good.

Welcome to zkgrumpy and adrial :) :) !

Blossom, enjoy your PRECIOUSSSS :) !

Hopefully I'll catch up with you in the next days *pant pant pant*

(((Faculty)))

Originally posted by Mariole
What I didn't like about the elf sequence was Aragorn's stupid orders -- Aragorn is telling Elves how to behave in a fight with orcs? I hardly think so. They're all like, a million years old. If I were an elf, I'd have stuck my foot out and tripped the uppity little tyke off the wall, heh heh heh.
I think one of most unintentionally funny lines in the movie is Theoden shouting, "Aragorn! Have your men fall back!" Now that I'm watching it in private, I can shout back, "Aragorn doesn't have any Men!" :D Oh, well, I think it's funny, anyway :rolleyes: .

To bring it back to the hobbits, I'm surprised they didn't kick Aragorn for calling them "gentlemen" twice during FotR--what an insult :p !

------------

Edit 15 hours later:

No new posts to read this morning :eek: , so while waiting for my coffee to take effect, I went through all of Mariole's Froshadowings--OME! Brilliant! And the captions are the icing on the cake. Even though I'd seen it before, I couldn't stop laughing at "Nat runs from 'the Dead Guy'." :D :D There's just something so ridiculously right about calling a Nazgul "the Dead Guy" :D .

These eerie passages in the film outshine those of the book.

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Great quotations, though. :) (apart from that bit). ;)

(((((Serena))))) (((((Faculty)))))

I'm curious. are there other Forshadowings of the other hobbits?

I mean of Sam being heroic. Taking care of Frodo?

Is that not weird that EVERY one of Elijah's movies until LOTR has at least ONE scene in which FRODO does something or something HAPPENS to Frodo? What does this tell Us? LOL.

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
I'm curious. are there other Forshadowings of the other hobbits?

I mean of Sam being heroic. Taking care of Frodo?
Well, you'd probably want to check with the Goonies, the Playgroup, and the Mobbits about that :) . And if you've found any such pics for their favorite hobbits/actors, they'd be delighted to see them, I'm sure ;) !

When this insanity started, I tried to watch all the films I could find of anyone cast in The Movies :eek: , but one person can only do so much, and I've "specialized" in order to do in-depth research :p . I'd recommend Rudy and Memphis Belle to anyone, though :) . (It's been a long time since I've watched them, but IIRC there could be Sam moments in each.)

(((All hobbit lovers)))

Originally posted by Mariole
So, if anyone wants to post a cap of Honeyelf's "Pa is dead" moment (or anything else), I'll happily add it to the appropriate comparison page. :)

Right. That, I can do. :)


http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/a'in/Papsdead.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Papsdeadw.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Papsdeadm.JPG

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/a'in/Papsdeads.JPG


or would you need more? ;)

:k

(((((((Faculty)))))))))

Quick (((((ainon))))) before she can get away :) !

Originally posted by tgshaw
Quick (((((ainon))))) before she can get away :) !

Good thought! ((((ainon)))) Been missing you, kid! I'll return your e-mail sometime after Thanksgiving, which is the 27th, 'kay? :o

So, who has the Extended DVD? If you have it, what did you watch first? And if you don't, when are you due to get it? I seem to remember Maeglian isn't getting hers for a while yet. Is there anyone here who doesn't plan to pick one up? I think I saw that Rosie Cotton is getting it, but not watching it until she's seen it on the big screen!

Gee, and I thought I showed great restraint not reading spoilers until I got the DVD... I do not have the iron will required in owning the puppy (or being able to) and not watching it! :eek:

I've got a screaming headache this morning, so I'm not up to contributing much more than questions. :p About all I can handle right now is a general, "Guys, I've been enjoying the conversation." :)

Oh, and I'll answer my own questions - have the DVD, but all I've seen is the new scenes (most of which I liked). My middle daughter lobbied loudly for watching "making of" stuff last night, but it was much too late. And right now my dad's in the downstairs bath using power tools and my mom's scraping the pantry walls, and settling down in front of the DVD seems inappropriate somehow. Although it would serve pretty well in terms of my main job - keeping the kids out of my parents' hair! :D

I think this post is spoiler-free; correct me, anyone who disagrees, and I'll mark it for spoilers. :)

Sheryl

Ainon, :k Those were lovely! Isn't there a second there when he turns away from the window? Just wondering. Haven't seen it in a while. I may need my own copy of that one for purely academic purposes, you understand! I'd insert the Frodo picture that Huck is 'frodoshadowing,' but I've suddenly gotten stupid and can't figure out how to do it! :rolleyes:

I have the DVD. Watched it with a friend from another board yesterday. Another grown, middle-aged LoTR fan like me! Then I drove home 2.5 hours, only to find my husband watching it and sniffling occassionally, so I sat down and watched it again! :D Lovely!

Then after he went to bed, I sat up and watched the rope scene about 6 consecutive times! Then I watched some of the cast commentary! Such a lovely, lovely waste of a day!

Rosie, if you are really not watching it until you can see it in the theater you have a will of iron! I had originally planned to do just that, but what can I say? Hobbits are tricksy little things, and they have a way of worming their way into your heart, where they just won't be denied!

Yay! I just discovered that I can tape TRL on my Tivo! :D

Honey!

(((Ainon!))) *performs a flying tackle so we both fall down* I was wondering where you were! So good to see you. What's up! :)

(((Sheryl))) Hope your headache improves -- although with power tools and scraping noises, perhaps it's a bit much to ask..? :(

Glad to see you all! It's been so quiet here, I wondered if everyone watching the TT EE, or maybe hiding out to avoid spoilers. I may have to begin doing that as well.

But for now, I have purchased the Premiere magazine with the hilarious article about our hobbit buddies, because I must have this much cuteness in my own home. I also picked up Fantasy Worlds, which is a special publication that Starlog produces annually specifically to cover the Tolkien and Harry Potter movies. That latter contains a lovely 4-page interview (probably 2 full pages without pictures) with Elijah. He talks a bit about his process in developing Frodo throughout the three films, and how he chose to portray that journey (I won't post any specifics for those who want to keep completely spoiler free). He also spends a bit of time talking about Gollum's character and Faramir's character arc, particularly for the latter in light of the additional scenes that will appear in the TT-EE (which I won't have until this weekend). I think this shows particular awareness on EW's part. Who knows how long ago this interview was conducted, but when Elijah asked fans the question at C4 about what part of PJ's changes for TT they least liked, the fans shouted out "Faramir!" by a large majority. Of course, talking about these other characters is also a clever way for Elijah to avoid talking too much about what happens to Frodo, beyond a vague reference that "things are getting darker for Frodo." I appreciated his restraint.

He concludes by talking a bit about what's next for him:

I'm taking on roles that are more about who I am in my life right now, just older. Finally , I'm able to tackle parts that are darker, older, different and lead me into areas that I haven't yet covered. I constantly want to grow as an actor.

[Regarding his personal life:]
There are pros and cons to fame. And while there are more cons than pros in the long run, it all depends on your perspective. I love being a part of these movies and I love being recognized for them, because I'm proud of these films. ... It was an incredible experience and something I very much want to hold onto. But I don't want this to [i]be my life. I want it to be a marker in my life. And it will be.
Interesting that he considers fame a long-term "con." Perhaps he has Mark Hamill or Leonard Nimoy in mind? Or maybe just the intrusion into his personal life -- such as the pics I've seen of him shopping, getting into his car, or even crossing the street! :rolleyes: I always check the new pics of him, but when I see something that is obviously an ambush or stakeout of Elwood on his personal time, I do get irritated on his behalf. But he does appreciate recognition by fans. :)

Well, that's beside the point. The main fact is that it's a lovely interview and a beautiful magazine. The full-page pics of Frodo with Galadriel's light and the Pieta are worth the price alone. I highly recommend picking it up. There are also very interesting interviews with Sean, Andy, and Miranda Otto - the latter of whom gave a very funny quote:

And if it doesn't pan out for Otto -- if, in fact, it's all downhill from here -- there's always the convention and personal appearance circuit. "Yeah, I'll probably be scratching out my end days having no money," Miranda Otto laughs. "I'll be going around doing shopping centers with a walking stick and waving my sword about!"
You gotta love her! :D I think having fun with the whole "phenomenon" thing is much healthier for those caught up in it. I really enjoyed William Shatner's surrender to and eventual embrace of the whole geekiness of fandom -- that man has a healthy attitude! Ian McKellan and Hugo Weaving I have no worries over either -- assuming they are asked at some point to reprise their roles for a film version of the Hobbit. They've got that sense of humor that will make it fun, vs a burden to bear or shun or try to put behind them, such as "don't mention the 'L' word." :rolleyes: Perhaps I shouldn't be too critical, but I think the happier people are those who acknowledge what they've done rather than try to run from it. Oh dear, I'm getting philosophical. 90-degree turn...

from honeyelf
I drove home 2.5 hours, only to find my husband watching it and sniffling occassionally, so I sat down and watched it again!
:D Honeyelf, is this close to what you wanted? I'll be standing by for your TRL report. :k


Huck learns some startling news ...

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hpa1.jpg


... that causes him to reconsider his entire course of action.

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/hpa2.jpg

Mariole! Those are perfect! :k

I agree with you about the Lijah-stalking pictures! Let the young man cross a street people! Then again maybe those pics are taken by fans who are too timid to get any closer, in which case they ought to leave 'em in the drawer at home, to be taken out and looked at occassionally. IMVHO

Honey!

Got my DVDs! Amazon was slow but they got here.

You know this means caps of special un-before capped Froments/ Lijamoments will be soon be appearing.

Also Elijah is on MTV on TRL at 5 PM today or 2 AM in the morning.:D

Ok...so if I understand it correctly, we get max post of 1 per 24 hours, but we can edit/add to that post?

So...

My TTT EE is somewhere between Kentucky and Mordor - er - here.

I have blown the proverbial wad on (I tried to get cheap used where I could) nearly every movie where EW had a major role from the time he was about 12. The War, Huck Finn, Bumblebee Flies, Ash Wednesday, All I Want, I forget which other ones. It should be an interesting weekend. I'm looking forward to watching them. He really is an unusual actor.

I just watched the RotK trailer about six times. I read the end of LotR last night again and blubbed all the way through it, as usual.

I have some Very Deep Things written, but I left it at home and the cat ate it. ;) I may post them later.

I had no idea that Sean Astin is Patty Duke's son!! No wonder he looked familiar!

ZK
(why is it that whenever you get four Hobbits - er - guys in a room together, you get a lot of bathroom humor?) ("Porn and chocolate"?!?)(I think I'll stop reading about EW - I think I want to limit my knowledge to his acting.) (dad-burned whippersnapper)

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
Ok...so if I understand it correctly, we get max post of 1 per 24 hours, but we can edit/add to that post?

No, not quite.:) There isn't a maximum posting limit - the only rule is that you can't post twice in a row, with no other posts between your two posts. That's when you should edit if you have something to add.:)

Mariole, I saw the "Fantasy Worlds" magazine but didn't buy it. If you feel like posting *any* quotes from the Sean interview in the Garden, I assure you that the Goonies would love you forever.;) :D

And shadowcat, yes, I'm sure the Goonies, Mobbits and Playgroupers would love to look for hobbitshadowings, if you asked them to!:cool:

I've been in computer hell. Or AOL purgatory. Or something.
I had the worst time of it. I've been staying away from the boards a little to get a bit of a breather before next month. But after all, I just watched the EE of TTT and I thought at midnight last night I'd come in and do a quick swoop--see what people are saying, leave a little of my own thoughts. But I wrestled with the cosmos of the computer for two hours!! Wrote it up--bumped 3 times!! And I got so stubborn it was almost 2am and I re-wrote my thoughts yet again, and then, I press "submit reply"--AND IT DOESN't SUBMIT!!!! :mad: I finally stomped off to bed, bagging my stab at being the last post of the day (my west coast advantage
:) )

Then today I got on and read no new posts. Thought everyone was in hibernation til I reconfigured my adaptor and up pops all these lovely new posts.

Anyway--trying to remember my midnight thoughts--almost subsumed by computer frustration.


So I assume everyone who could get their hands on the EE had their eyeballs glued to the set for at least 4 hours yesterday (and today?). My initial feeling is that Frodo came off well, and I am pleased. The expanded F and S scenes deepened things--the sense of peril and endurance. I am again in awe of Elijah--just seeing more shots of his face and what he does with it adds so much richness to TTT. Really, just more opportunity to read the story through his expressiveness rounds this movie out, I think. Gives a meaningful counterbalance to all the action elsewhere. You really get a feeling for his weariness, his decisiveness, his doubt--and his determination. Just adding a little more material like this (with Frodo's face!) gives the audience more to chew on, pulls our hearts more into the emotion of his quest and gives people more time to imagine what changes might be happening in regards to the ring and Frodo, and his awareness of it. And I think his actions toward Gollum, etc., have more weight. More loose ends tied up when we get a little more of this Frodo dose. For instance (and this isn't a spoiler because the scene is old) when Frodo snaps at Sam, it doesn't just come so suddenly and I don't think Frodo sounds hystericial. I get more of a sense of him having thought out and imagined out things--because we had a little more set up time with them in their arduous approach to Mordor. Or maybe it's me just getting that out of it because it's so much the important focus for me!!

TTT EE Spoilers





It was a tiny surprise but a nice one, that Frodo did not fall wildly to the ground when he is hanging by the rope on the cliff. He slips when he reaches out to neatly catch Sam's box when it falls, and he lands onhis feet. Hey, capable guy and a good catch. NIce. Previews made me think he ws going ot have quite a tumble again.


One odd thought. Were those Elijah's legs in the Dead Marsh scene when he and Sam are eating lembas!!! They look so unnatural :D And why those hobbits didn't offer Gollum some lembas before Frodo finally tossed him some (since he was moaning quite a bit before then), well I don't know. Did they already know he wouldn't like it? It really looked as if Sam and Frodo were being filmed separately from Gollum in that one. I mean it showed. So that is the one thing I thought was a little funny in a giggling sense.

And funny they didn't have any scenes to fill and fix the continuity issue with Frodo and the barrel and then Frodo on the rug. Presto.

And wasn't there talk long ago (though I haven't heard it in awhile) that there would be back scenes of Smeagol's history? Maybe it will be in the Gollum special I have yet to watch.


End Spoilers




One more comment on an old subject--but back a few pages, TG Shaw gives a good analysis of Weathertop. We just watched Fellowship again preparing for TTT EE. I forget because of all of the controversy the this board that when I actually first saw the movie my attention was drawn to the fact that Frodo looked the leader. He got the hobbits on the road and OFF the road and into Bree and told them to put the fire out and to get to the top of the hill and yes he did pull out his sword first. And I think TG is right--even if terror hadn't been an issue, why would he hang onto the sword when he could tell it obviously would do no good, and if his mind went to the ring, he had to drop the sword to get at it. I think he does quite well--and he was able to pull the ring back from the WIKI's reach. (oh yeah, and I liked that Merry and Pippin closed in to shield Frodo, it let's us know that they know Frodo is the important one to protect, and that he is the target--and it re-emphasizes this to the audience) Old topic, I know. But in watching it again, I think he is not looking weak at all. And when followed right away by the viewing of the EE TTT--I feel his steel.


okay--those are quick thoughts. Hopefully I can successfully post them today. Otherwise, that wailing you hear is me....

Oh, yes!! A big welcome to zkgrumpy and Adriel. Nice posts!!

Alyon

What about Personality?

Did he seem like a Stern Parent Billy Goat Gruff type when he did these Leading things? or was it more like a Gentle, but Strong, Beautiful Angel?

:confused:

For some reason this quote just cracked me up. It's the caption to an article about some academic study regarding fans' reations to Tolkien's trilogy: Researchers want to find out just what the appeal of the Lord of the Rings is. (Insert laughter here.) It sounds like someone coming up to me at a museum, as I'm gazing at some marvelous piece in absorbed wonder, and said person (not looking at the work) gives me a polite frown and says, "So, is this the piece that I've heard about?" [glances over the work in clinical fashion] "Now, what is it that you find so absorbing?"

To be fair, I'm sure the editors supplied the caption, but the concept does strike me as pretty silly. I can anticipate their results. "73% of respondents reacted favorably to the concept of friendship, while nearly 92% were influenced positively by the descriptions of the ever-evolving landscapes." Somehow, I just don't think this type of analysis will gain us much. But, if these researchers all love Tolkien (and I imagine they do), it's a fun way to waste time dreaming over Middle Earth under the guise of actually working. ;)

(((Alyon))) I'm sorry about your computer glitch. Unless my post is very short, I typically type it into a text editor first, then paste it into the Reply box when I'm ready to submit it. I tweak it for effects (and spelling :o) there. That way I don't lose the substance of my thoughts if the computer decides to get sulky on me -- I can just save the text file.

I skipped most of your post because I'm averting my eyes and saying "la la la!" until I get get the EE TT and see it for myself. But the bit I did read in your intro paragraph sounds like a huge relief and very promising. I did like your report on the Weathertop scene as well, focusing on Frodo's leadership. It's hard for us Purists to accept PJ changing something that we so desperately wanted to see enacted, but it's nice to know that these changes may not have in fact sabotaged the character or the movie -- even if it takes some of us a lot of processing to come around to that fact!

I still have to finish watching the DVDs but I did get to put some of my own caps of Elijah from TRL HERE (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288539477)

Elijah looked really good! :D

Nice pics, Hobmom. Thanks.

Maybe I missed this earlier, but could someone please explain to a cable-ignorant person what "trl" is? It looks like a pretty serious show--or does it just seem that way because of the choice of pics?

"TRL": MTV show. I think it stands for "Total Request Live." They play the top ten videos. There is a lot of goofing off, so the still pics just aren't conveying that.

My favorite part was where the host was pressing the guys to say one thing they didn't like about the others. He asked Elijah first, who was of course too polite to answer, but couldn't deflect the host either. Finally he relented and the worst he could/would come up with was that Billy is "always in a good mood, and that can be a little tiring," (as I recall.) Then the host starts picking on Dom next, who being a bit older and less given to straight answers, deftly side-stepped the issue and said something that got the host off the subject. Go Dom!

Honey!

Have started with the capping of the TTTEE beginning with the very amusing 4th disc.

Here are the beginning caps featuring The Unfortunate Sean Wig Incident (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288534227) plus a few of the preceding goodies.

I'm reading Douglas Coupland's "Girlfriend in a Coma" - Elijah mentioned the book in an interview awhile back, saying he loved it and wanted to make a movie of it someday.

At one point, two of the characters are talking about a gingerbread house they made, and how it was supposed to look "like a Hobbit cottage."

:cool: :cool: :D

Okay, so hobbits don't live in cottages, but still...

:cool: :cool: :D

......of Elijah!!!!

At least NL is backing him....

Oscar Ad (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/orig/9867_orig.jpg)

And more caps of the new TTTEE Fro-scenes are here....Fro-Osgiliath (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288519783&congratulation_page=Y)

Hobmom, wow! Thank you for the Oscar ad! :)

That's great!

And the pic that follows the ad, - I've never seen that one before either. A whole new Pieta angle! Oh! Oh! So poignant....

In the middle of my wow!!-feeling I *can't* help smiling a little, too:
They're promoting EJW for best actor by means of one of those now-famous nostril shots. :rolleyes:

And the rumour that they were going to promote LivTyler for best actress was apparently just that - a rumour.

Isn't it unusual that a film and its actors, producers, directors and what not are being promoted for Oscar before that film even premiered? Or is that done all the time?


Not commenting on the DVD pics, since I'm still avoiding spoilers. The DVD isn't on sale here yet, and despite my rather desperate efforts I haven't managed to get it from abroad yet. :( **sigh** That ad was JUST what I needed!

The Hobbit gingerbread house was SPOOKY.

Wasn't this book BEFORE the LOTR ever happened?

So WHAT does this tell Us?

At first I was going to just say that Girlfriend in a Coma was probably published after 1938 (when The Hobbit "happened") or even after 1954 (when the final volume of LotR "happened") and move on, but then, of course, I got curious... ;) So anyone who wants to know just a bit more about Girlfriend in a Coma:

It was published in 1999, but the beginning is set in 1979. Then the girlfriend's coma lasts 17 years, and the remainder of the book is set after she wakes up. I don't know in which part of the story the "hobbit cottage" comment occurs (amazon has some sample pages posted, but I'm not sure I'm quite that curious). It would probably fit the time-setting more in the first part when LotR was still riding high enough to bring about the publication of the Sil. By the late 1990's, the Book had "settled" into a steady stream of readers but was no longer a cultural phenomenon (til now :p ). Of course, if the girlfriend had gone into the coma in 1979, that could still be her mindset. If Elijah was in the scene when the line's said, it could be funny no matter when it's set. What it "tells us" IMO is that the author expected most of his Gen-X readership to know what a hobbit is, even before the movies came out, but he wasn't so sure if they'd know what a smial is ;) .

BTW, the book gets fairly good reviews until the reviewers reach the ending, which does sound a bit "tacked on." The author is well known for writing Gen-X novels.

Possible thought for a story: Have someone go into a coma in, say, 1968, with its "Frodo Lives" graffiti and "Gandalf for President" buttons, and LotR considered somewhat subversive and countercultural--at least in the U.S.--and wake up as the blockbuster, multi-million-dollar movies are being released :p . Now that would be culture shock (speaking from experience ;) -- and we had some time to adjust to the idea)!

Originally posted by Maeglian
They're promoting EJW for best actor by means of one of those now-famous nostril shots. :rolleyes:
And notice they're using one that emphasizes the "elegant, slim" nostrils even more than the original pieta shot ;) . [Yeah, yeah, I know it was probably chosen because it shows a better view of Sean's face, but still... :p ].

Isn't it unusual that a film and its actors, producers, directors and what not are being promoted for Oscar before that film even premiered? Or is that done all the time?
Since a lot of films that are considered Oscar-worthy are released late in the year, it's probably done quite often. The fact that the 2003 Oscars will be voted on earlier than previous ones is most likely adding to it.

There's a cute write-up of a fan encounter over at A&F: http://always.ejwsites.net/mary.html
Call me a sick woman, but I think these teenie sightings are a lot of fun. It makes me feel like the event that is ROTK is beginning already. I was there for the original Star Wars; I will be here for ROTK. Lucky, lucky me! The most interesting thing to me in Mary's report was, when she first encountered Billy and Elijah in a store, "I'll tell you now, there were seriously like 6 bodyguards with them." This number increased to "90,000" when they actually went into the TRL building. This comforts me. Maybe Bush has made me paranoid, but I'd really like to avoid any "incidents" when these darling boys are going around promoting the final movie.

Now, on to my real good fortune! I've seen the Extended Edition of the Two Towers. (((Maeglian))) -- do you know when you'll get to see this?


Nonspecific spoilery comments about the movie:

Alyon, I agree with you. The Two Towers works so much better in this extended edition. It absolutely needed the extra room to explain all those non-Tolkien things it did, like who is this Brego the Wonder Horse anyway, and what is his infatuation with Aragorn's nose? Where did this personality transplant on Faramir come from? And how exactly did the addition of 2,000 horsemen win the battle of Helm's Deep?

Even things that didn't outright cause confusion when they occurred are explained much better. There's some rather important information exchanged between Merry and Pippin when they are captured by the Uruk-Hai, as well as the fact that there are clearly two groups of orcs who are not working together in what would pass for perfect harmony -- an important point to make clear re the bad guys. Theodred's death transforms from a mere blip on the screen ("Was I supposed to care?") to one of the most affecting scenes in the movie. And the crowning piece of all the additional scenes are those smirking sons of Gondor. They are such great friends -- and this gave tremendous emotional impact to many of the Sam/Faramir scenes that was completely missing from the TR version. Sean Bean is so good! Oh, Sean, how I wish you had been Aragorn! *sniff!*

Some things were not fixed, unfortunately. Treebeard remains clueless, but at least I understood clearly in this version that he was a comic implementation of the character, as opposed to merely stupid. And he did arrange the Entmoot. The barrels continuity error persists in Henneth Annun. I think that all the producers of this piece (in the extras) were quite up front about how rushed for time they were on this movie, and it shows. The extended version is so much better, but things like Sam making the speech in the cave while Frodo basically runs off and cowers in the corner are seen more as, oh, well, we didn't put the scene in here that we were going to have (after all, Frodo wouldn't have been confronting Faramir in his cute little Goth makeup), but at least it wasn't a deliberate attempt to make Frodo appear weak and Sam strong. It just came out that way in the rush. We can lament, but I imagine PJ and crowd are lamenting even more than we are, because they knew what vision they wanted to get across and are fully aware that they were not successful in getting their vision across to a great many fans. It makes me sad, but I'm heartened that their awareness will lead to a better ROTK release than we might have otherwise expected.

And yes, Alyon, I've heard that the Smeagol history was moved to ROTK. It was originally slated for TTT, but got shifted.


Spoilery comments about the extra features, specifically Elijah's professionalism

Let me say here and now that Elijah Wood is even more amazing than we thought he was. Yes, I'm talking to you, whichever Faculty member you are who thinks that you have the highest possible appreciation from him already. I'm just saying, you need to up it.

There were two scenes, both in the wonderful "Cameras of Middle Earth" feature on disc 4, that just blew me away. If you haven't seen it, you might want to skip this part to see it fresh. The first piece was the infamous "wig incident" with Sean and Andy. The short version is that Andy accidentally ripped off Sean's wig when he was supposed to jerk Sam and Frodo back from making their run on the Black Gate. Between fatigue and pain Sean got stressed and just stomped off. Andy, seeing that Sean was ticked, got ticked himself and marched off in the opposite direction. Elijah alone remains in the scene, and he shoots the director a look that I interpret as, "EEeee, this is bad!" The stomping off and look are here:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/wince.jpg

You know that old aphorism: "He who keeps his head while all about him are losing theirs is inhibited." No, that's not the saying I want. Anyway, the point is that the boys were having a bad day, but Elijah kept his head and went on with the scene (almost exactly as it appears in the final movie) until his costars walked off in a temper. What makes this little incident even more interesting to me is that, this was obviously one of the first takes, and Andy hadn't yet figured out how he was going to grab these guys and yank them back (obviously, or he wouldn't have ripped off Sean's wig). The thing is, he really yanks them. Sean manages to keep a foot on the ground, but Elijah is actually airborne:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/fall.jpg

It's impossible to get it across in these still shots; you've got to see it. Elijah has all four hooves in the air and just plummets down onto his back for -- I can't really tell, but it looks like a good 5 feet in this picture, landing on a bed of rock. That has got to hurt. But he stays in character, spins around, goes on with the scene -- until his buddies walk away from him. I notice they got this yank thing down better later -- the following pic shows the scene as it appears in the movie. It looks like Elijah manages to keep a foot down this time so he doesn't just fall, nor is he yanked so high:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/yank.jpg

We've already heard how he can take a fall (down 3 staircases in fact, thank you, Dom!), but I was just so impressed. Here's Elijah's world for a few seconds: *yank * throttle * WHOOPS feet up! * fall fall fall * OUCH that hurts * act act -- Hey, where did everybody go? Just amazing.

But even more impressive to me was the final scene they had of him and Sean in this feature. It's the Gollum spat scene. Sean is delivering his line, "It's the Ring" and right on the word "Ring" there's this huge explosion. Now, they were filming that day (with permission) on grounds that the NZ army used for live ammo practice. So here they are, filming, and from not too far away suddenly something detonates. Sean says in his commentary how they were all wondering if the NZ army was about to pummel them with incoming rounds. Sean stops, repeats a couple of words, then (as everyone is still rolling -- no sense in calling "Cut!" just because you're under fire) backs up a few words to regain his train of thought and continues.

The thing that was amazing is that, while they were recording Sean's voice, they had the camera close in on Elijah doing Frodo's reaction shots. Peter Jackson says that at the noise, everyone jumped, and you can see Elijah flinch a little bit -- I looked for this, and I couldn't see a flinch. There is maybe a quarter-inch flutter of one eyelid. What I saw was Elijah in character, listening to Sam, BOOM! no discernable flinch, but you can see a faint puff of air if you really look for it staying in character, waits for Sean to recover himself, staying in character, and on with the take. My jaw literally dropped. It was amazing. I mean, I know the show must go on, but under fire? Is that kind of dedication really called for?

I understood then what so many of his coworkers had been talking about when they said he was "focused." Yeah, do-dee-doh, we're filming -- hmm, explosion, must process that -- nope, nobody's called "cut", on we go -- do-dee-doh, doing my reaction shot now ... Holy flying cowhide. I was impressed. (I guess PJ was too, as he put that little incident in the feature.) Holy smokes. Yeah, I'd say that's pretty focused.



from tgshaw
And notice they're using one that emphasizes the "elegant, slim" nostrils even more than the original pieta shot
I would have liked to have heard the marketing discussion for this poster. I would have been right in there pitching for the slim nostril view.

:::: giggling about "slim nostrils" ::::

When do we get to "gratuitous nipple shots"? Oh - wait - that was last week. ;-D

I haven't gotten my TTT EE yet, but I *did* get the first of the other stuff - Huck Finn. Reaction? Waaaaaaaaay too pretty for Huck. And that 90's little-boy hair!!! I always thought Huck was older, too.

But...

It was a hell of a movie, and not really one that Disney could successfully make into a light-hearted movie. The book is satirical rather than funny, and they managed to slip a lot of that into the movie. I was tickled about the "Swahili warrior" part - I don't know if that was true in the book, but I remember at the end of the book that when Tom Sawyer (now I could see EW as Tom) came to see Jim, he'd been reading the Count of Monte Cristo, so they made Jim stay in the cell and write a diary on the walls of the cell (Jim couldn't read or write, of course, so he just made chicken-scratches on the walls). Maybe that's how they portrayed that sequence.

It was fast-paced and scary (yes, I *did* get scared) with a lot of Not Very Nice people in it. I liked the scene where Huck tries to do the right thing by turning in Jim, and seeing his struggle with the idea while he paddled that stupid log. It didn't have the classic tearing up of the letter with "OK, then, I'll *go* to hell!", but it was pretty effective. C.B. Vance was wonderful, as always; he's one character that I love on one of the many Law & Order's that are on. (besides Leonardo Di-wazzis, that is).

Ron Perlman/VincentMethos was terrifying as Pap. That was a horrendous sequence where he's chasing Huck around with the knife and when Huck finally settles down with the rifle pointed at his father's chest.

Elijah did a wonderful job in it. He really is a beautifully natural actor. To be that good at the tender age of - what - 10? 11?...

If he can keep his head on straight, he'll have a hell of a career.

Loved the screen caps, btw.

Now I think I'll go watch FotR again. <g>

zkgrumpy

P.S. - oh, yeah, there was one other "Froshadowing" moment -

GAAAAAAAANDALLLLLLLLLLF!!!!!!!! NOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Guess when?

TTT EXTENDED DVD SPOILERS!!!







Mariole - I so agree with you about Elijah in the 'explosion' scene. I cannot detect a trace of a flinch, and I have looked countless times.:)

The wig incident is obviously painfully embarrassing for poor Sean, but Elijah's expression there is priceless. I know you capped it for us Mariole, but I think it deserves a second look:

Oops! (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/Oops!Elijah.gif)

Of the extra Frodo/Sam marerial, I think my favourite has to be the elven rope scene. As Pearl said on another thread, this is pure Frodo and Sam:

MyDearSam (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/MyDearSam2s.gif)


It was interesting on listening to the cast commentary to hear Elijah's thoughts on 'the great tales' scene. He said he thinks it's beautiful, but felt that after what Frodo and Sam have just been through in Osgiliath, they wouldn't be capable of being so lighthearted there. I tend to agree - I thought so when I saw it in the cinema. It's a lovely scene, book-canon, and we get a 'secret Sam smile' from Frodo - and while I rejoice the fact that it's there at all, I can totally see Elijah's point. As Elijah himself concludes: 'It is what it is.'




END OF TTT DVD SPOILERS

Grumpy - may I call you Grumpy? Huck Finn is great, isn't it? A huge departure from the book, but Elijah is just perfect. I love the fake English accents - I know they're SUPPOSED to be funnny, and they are. Elijah and C.B. Vance are wonderful together, I think.

Ladies of The Faculty - Have a listen to this HILARIOUS audio track - it's from Hobmom's Hugs Haven. (Hope you don't mind me posting the link here, Hobmom) It's from Viggo's new album, and it features - wait for it - Elijah and Dom singing!!! :D WARNING - don't take a mouthful of any beverage whilst listening to this - it will probably end up sprayed all over your monitor!


half-fling (http://dawn.fourhobbits.net/mp3s/pfa/pandemoniumfromamerica_-_half_fling.mp3)

Enjoy! :)

>>>>Grumpy - may I call you Grumpy? <<<

Certainly. I've got the Grumpy slippers to prove it. javascript:smilie(':)')

>>>Huck Finn is great, isn't it? A huge departure from the book, but Elijah is just perfect. <<<<

The DVD that I got was released last year, and has an audiocommentary by the director and screenwriter (or someone). One of them went on to do The Mummy movies.

They were constantly marveling at EW's amazing performance. There was a lot of "...and that's a 10-year-old kid!" I noticed a number of lengthy scenes that went on and on and were obviously done in one take. Sure enough, they commented on those scenes. Some of them, they'd run out of time and light, and the scene had to be right the first time, and it was.

The director also talked about how much EW admired Vance. Vance would ask a lot of questions about a scene - what the motivation was and all the other stuff that actors try to find out before playing a scene. EW watched all this, then one day started asking similar questions. The director said "Elijah, CB (my abbreviation) asks those questions because he has to. You don't have to ask those questions. You're a natural!"

>>>Ladies of The Faculty - Have a listen to this HILARIOUS audio track - it's from Hobmom's Hugs Haven. <<<

Hobmom, do you have a link to your main LotR page?

>>>>WARNING - don't take a mouthful of any beverage whilst listening to this - it will probably end up sprayed all over your monitor!<<<<

Thanks a bunch! javascript:smilie(';)')
- I've now got 1/4" dents in my finger from biting it to keep from bursting into howls of laughter, which is Not Done at work. I think I blew that one big laugh out my ears - ouch!

What the heck was that? What were they doing?!? Where's it from? Where did they do it and how did they happen to do it? Geez!

~grumpy cuz it's Monday morning but still giggling

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
I haven't gotten my TTT EE yet, but I *did* get the first of the other stuff - Huck Finn. Reaction? Waaaaaaaaay too pretty for Huck. And that 90's little-boy hair!!! I always thought Huck was older, too.
Yeah, he is--which affects the movie quite a bit (shades of "younger Frodo"?).

...I was tickled about the "Swahili warrior" part - I don't know if that was true in the book, but I remember at the end of the book that when Tom Sawyer (now I could see EW as Tom) came to see Jim, he'd been reading the Count of Monte Cristo, so they made Jim stay in the cell and write a diary on the walls of the cell (Jim couldn't read or write, of course, so he just made chicken-scratches on the walls). Maybe that's how they portrayed that sequence.
No, the Swahili warrior bit isn't in the book--although it might have had a forerunner in the Mickey Rooney movie (don't hold me to that). In the book, the King and the Duke leave Jim on the raft at that point. Their main purpose is to keep people away from him, so they paint his face blue (IIRC) and put up a sign that says something like, "Keep Away! Crazy Arab!" --I'd have to check the book to get this exact :rolleyes: .

So, in the book Huck's separated from Jim the entire time he's at the Wilkses'. I think the screenwriter was correct in thinking the younger movie Huck would have had a hard time sorting things out there without Jim's help, so he found a way to keep them together. It's one of the times movie-Jim takes the place of book-Huck's "inner voice."

I've got some thoughts on that and other things regarding the book and movie (including why I'm glad Elijah didn't play Tom Sawyer ;) ) here (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id187.htm). Anyone who reads it, please keep in mind that it was written about six months before the FotR movie opened, when I was still in my early stages of scouting out EJW movies--some of it sounds a bit strange even to me, now :p .

Elijah did a wonderful job in it. He really is a beautifully natural actor. To be that good at the tender age of - what - 10? 11?...

If he can keep his head on straight, he'll have a hell of a career.

So far, I've watched only the movie on the TTT DVD, so I've been skipping the screencaps, etc., that people have posted of the "wig incident" until after I've actually seen it myself. But it reminds me of a story from the director's commentary on Huck Finn --

The girl who played the youngest Wilkes daughter was literally "scared stiff" while filming the scene in the kitchen where she tries to debunk Huck's story. Her acting was terrible, simply because she was so petrified, so they had to shoot the scene over and over and over and... :eek: Finally, after one particularly bad take, the director said, "That was good! Let's just do it once more so I'm sure I have it." That relaxed the girl enough that she really did do a good job on the next take. But the director said that when he told the girl, "That was good," Elijah shot him a look that said, "Are you crazy?!" :p Always the professional actor, even at age 10 (although the director turned out to be the better child psychologist at the time ;) ).

Edit:I'm posting from work, which means bits and pieces of time and sometimes a post sitting on the screen for quite awhile before I can finish it, so Grumpy had already added some more by the time I posted this. But since [embarrassing (for me :o )question, Grumpy, but are you a "he" or a "she"?] s/he didn't tell that particular story from the commentary ;) , I left it in.

They were constantly marveling at EW's amazing performance. There was a lot of "...and that's a 10-year-old kid!" I noticed a number of lengthy scenes that went on and on and were obviously done in one take. Sure enough, they commented on those scenes. Some of them, they'd run out of time and light, and the scene had to be right the first time, and it was.
If you're interested, I've got two pages of screencaps from one of them here (http://www.frodolivesin.us/id73.htm) :p .

Yay! Mariole! Yay! Blossom!!

Finally people start drifting back to the board after a week of concentrated viewing (or avoiding spoilers while waiting for their DVD).

My sympathies to those who are still waiting.


Mariole, I so agree with you about Elijah staying in scene through the thick and thin of it. What also amazed me is how his face is distinctly different when he is in character and when he is Elijah. He is in the same makeup, positioned in the same place waiting to go into scene with Frodo, or just getting out of scene--and his face is either Frodo, or Elijah, depending upon whether he is on or off. Don't you think? This was apparent during the wig scene--if I recall, even before the scene started (but Ihave to go back and look).



EE TTT Spoiler Question






Okay, when Gandalf is reassuring Aragorn that it was okay to leave Frodo to go on his own, alone....and Aragorn says---Frodo didn't go alone, Sam went with him.....And Gandalf says, he did? Good... (or some such). Well, before Aragorn told him this, just where did Gandalf think that Sam was???? He had seen Merry and Pippin, he was with the other three, he thought Frodo had gone off alone. Then why hadn't he asked "Where's Sam?" before this point??? Why?? Did he forget about Sam!!!





End Spoiler TTT Question



I have another question about Rotk








ROTK SPOILER




So when Frodo shows the ring to the Nazgul at Osgiliath, I figure that will just make Sauron believe that the Ring is heading towards Gondor. But is this info contradicted if in Rotk Sauron thinks that Pippin has the Ring?? I mean the Nazgul saw the Ring with Frodo, why would Sauron still believe Pippin to have it??



End Rotk Spoiler



The Oscar ad is fantastic!!!! Thanks for the link, Hobmom.

Honeyelf---thanks for the TRL tidbit. Wish I'd seen it.

Alyon

Originally posted by Alyon



ROTK SPOILER




So when Frodo shows the ring to the Nazgul at Osgiliath, I figure that will just make Sauron believe that the Ring is heading towards Gondor. But is this info contradicted if in Rotk Sauron thinks that Pippin has the Ring?? I mean the Nazgul saw the Ring with Frodo, why would Sauron still believe Pippin to have it??



End Rotk Spoiler




ROTK SPOILER

The Nazgul have to sniff as their eyesight is so bad (since they exist in a twilight world), one hobbit is going to look pretty much like another to them - it is the ring they sense, and are pursuing, not it's particular carrier.

And Sauron himself will not have seen Frodo, so given a description of one hobbit by his minions, it will be enough to see another for him to think it's the same one. Especially since hobbits are pretty rare in that part of the world. :)

End Rotk Spoiler

Blossom, Blossom, Blossom... Thank you for the animated gifs! So wonderful -- I can't get enough of those things. Pretty silly, I guess, when I can just go fire up the DVD to see the sequences. But there's something about just being able to click on them any old time and look at them loop over and over and over. Beautiful.
:k Thank you!


Originally posted by Alyon
I have another question about Rotk








ROTK SPOILER




So when Frodo shows the ring to the Nazgul at Osgiliath, I figure that will just make Sauron believe that the Ring is heading towards Gondor. But is this info contradicted if in Rotk Sauron thinks that Pippin has the Ring?? I mean the Nazgul saw the Ring with Frodo, why would Sauron still believe Pippin to have it??







Response to Rotk Spoiler



Remember, the Nazgul can't actually see. They can sense the Ring, but until Frodo actually puts it on, they can't know for sure, I believe. So when it appears that Pippin is actually the bearer of the Ring, Sauron would be likely to accept it on the evidence given.

End Rotk Spoiler

Edit: Narya, we simul-posted. ;)

Blossom, thank you for those nifty animated gifs!!!

DVD Spoiler Comments


I want so badly to love that 'Rope' scene. I love how it illustrates that Frodo is beginning to value Sam as his own little bit of salt, reminding him as he does, of what it is to be a hobbit, and of home. But does anyone else feel Elijah overacted this scene by a a bit? You don't catch him over-acting often (I can think of maybe 3 times in the dozen or so of his movies I've seen where he seemed to be over doing it.)

It was interesting on listening to the cast commentary to hear Elijah's thoughts on 'the great tales' scene. He said he thinks it's beautiful, but felt that after what Frodo and Sam have just been through in Osgiliath, they wouldn't be capable of being so lighthearted there. I tend to agree - I thought so when I saw it in the cinema. It's a lovely scene, book-canon, and we get a 'secret Sam smile' from Frodo - and while I rejoice the fact that it's there at all, I can totally see Elijah's point. As Elijah himself concludes: 'It is what it is.'

Hmmm. I thought that moment was perfectly hobbity myself. Remember in the book, TTT. Book 3, Chapter III, Merry and Pip have just go loose of the Uruk-Hai and it says:

As they walked they compared notes, talking in light hobbit-fashion of the things that had happened since their capture. No listener would have guessed from their words that they had suffered cruelly, and been in dire peril, going without hope toward torment and death; or even now, as they knew well, they had little chance of ever finding friend or safety again.

(Side note: Does anyone else have a creeping sense of psychosexual terror when Grishnahk is pawing over Merry and Pip looking for the Ring?)

And remember Frodo just rescued by Sam from the terror of Cirith Ungol saying:

'I can't go all the way at a run, Sam,' Frodo said with a wry smile. 'I hope you've made inquiries about inns along the road? Or have you forgotten about food and drink?'

And this just after snapping at Sam for having the Ring in his possession.

I suppose that's what comes of our dear boy not having read the book! :D But maybe he's right that it doesn't quite fit the darker tone of PJ's movies.

SPOILERY STUFF AT AN END

Blossom, thanks for that hysterical song by Dom and Lij! I can't quite believe I ordered the thing.:rolleyes:

Grumpy, Gratuitous nipple shots? This buds for you! :D

Link removed

Honey!

>>> [embarrassing (for me )question, Grumpy, but are you a "he" or a "she"?] s/he didn't tell that particular story from the commentary <<<

Tee hee hee. I'm not sure you haven't paid me a wonderful compliment. I've been through four very rough years at work, where I lost a great deal of what little self-confidence that I had. I haven't done any writing for work for a long time. I also haven't been on any boards for a long time where I posted anything that required thought, so I'm pretty rusty. My writing suffered badly; deliberate use of passive verbs and overqualification became the norm. That form of writing, btw, is considered "women's writing", which is not suitable for my work environment.

I've been paying more attention to the bad habits that I've developed and now try to "de-genderize" my writing (again! Hey, Mary Baldwin taught me *something*, y'know?)

So yes, I'm one of them wimmenfolks. :)

Dad-gummit - somehow I screwed up my display so I'll have to add to this if I find what I was going to quote. :::: grumble grumble ::::

OK here's the rest...


>>>>Grumpy, this buds for you!
Honey! <<<<<

Awwwwwww, shucks!!! Thanks! (Immediately after that shot is the Eyebrow scene) :)

I was surprised at - um - PJ's? EW's? SA's? - hesitation to put that scene in the movie. The one point that they left out was *why* Sam took his hand.

In the book, the Morgul (sp?) blade left a splinter in the wound, which was working its way toward Frodo's heart (though why the Wraith didn't just stab him in the heart is beyond me). When it killed him, he would be entirely in the Wraith world. In the process of slipping toward that world, Frodo's left arm became cold and paralyzed, and the coldness and paralysis was spreading to his whole left side. When Sam took his hand (awkwardly in the book), he was checking if the hand was still deathly cold or had gotten warm. Even though he mostly recovered, Gandalf could still see a hint of transparency, especially in his left hand.

TTT: I thought the "hobbit tales" exchange rang true. Frodo was horrified because he nearly killed Sam. Sam was badly shaken by Frodo's near-surrender to the Wraith and having his best friend hold a sword to his throat with that inhuman - er - inhobbit expression. I think it's natural to try to lighten things up after something so horrendous. It also gave Frodo a chance to acknowledge Sam's importance and thank him.

I still think Sam's pots and pans banging around on his back are hysterical, and I didn't notice till this last time that when they meet up with Merry and Pippin in the cornfield, that Sam has a string of sausages hanging around his shoulders.

:::: deep breath ::::
I WANT MY TTT EE!!!!!


~grumpy
"He was the bestest of Hobbits, and that's sayin' something" -- Sam

Aylon, that Gandy/Aragorn/Sam thing bugged me too. You'd think Aragorn would have brought him up to speed on the trip :rolleyes: ! What else are they gonna talk about?

Well, it does look like everyone is coming out of DVD hibernation and posting again. I know that's where I've been.

There's never too much Elijah or LOTR but, is it just me, or is this EEDVD longer than last year's? I still need to finish watching disc four.

I LOVE the cast commentary. Dom and Billy had me falling over laughing and Elijah, Sean and Andy are delightful with their slightly more serious anecdotes and insights on how they felt about the movie.

I was glad to hear Elijah admit, after Sean saying that in the car Elijah's cigarrete ashes kept blowing back into Sean's face..

"I'm sorry, Sean.....(To audience) I have a smoking problem.... (sincerely) Don't smoke."

I rolled my eyes and went "Doh!" last night when I got to the Osgiliath scene and found out they LOVE Sean's 'UN' speech. :eek:

Oh, my!

I guess they got caught up in the emotion of the scene. They are excellant in the scene but..as has been discussed before... that speech needs a serious rewrite.:rolleyes:

I did love hearing them say how they don't like the films to be thought of as war films but want them to be recognized as the anti-war films they are.

Elijah's thoughts were so peace-and-people-loving, just the way he comes across in real life. He's a very special young man.

Anyway here's the link to the VERRRRY silly, funny nonsense song Elijah and Dom do on Viggo's new album.... Please heed the "Drink No Liquids While Listening!" warning...
Half Fling (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/hal_fling.mp3)

Grumpy- Welcome! Sorry if I didn't already welcome you, I've been seriously Lij/TTT distracted this past week

Since you asked, here's the link to my little old site. It's really an Elijah site in need of updating.
Appreciating Elijah (http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/)

Blossom!! :k :k :k I love your animated gifs. You are a princess!

Grumpy, Honey, you're new to the Faculty, so I will forgive your remark about "gratuitous nipple shots." However, as a forum for serious discussion, I feel obligated to point out that none of Frodo's nipple shots can be considered "gratuitous." They all contribute to character development, offset sterno-cleido-mastoid dominance, and are highly instrumental in involving the audience in the story. In short, I would pitch a royal fit if any of them were to go. I'm just saying. ;) :p

Speaking of serious issues, I did note on the cast commentary track where they said that Elijah deliberately imitated Gollum's expressions where appropriate to reinforce the similarities between these two Ring-bound beings. Sean chattered on about how Elijah actually does look like Andy ("except for being more handsome," Andy adds, which Elijah pshaws). :D

So ladies, what do you think? How much does Elijah look like Andy? Twins separated at birth?

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/andygrin.jpg

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/andy34.jpg

Nostrils!

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/andynose.jpg

Profile:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/andyprof.jpg

RotK Spoiler






Said by Narya Celebrian

The Nazgul have to sniff as their eyesight is so bad (since they exist in a twilight world), one hobbit is going to look pretty much like another to them - it is the ring they sense, and are pursuing, not it's particular carrier.


That gives me something to work with--but Pippin is in Isengard--and (if the movie does as book does) looking in the Palentir. Sauron thinks Saruman had Pippin, right?? And that Pippin has the Ring (as previews of the movie indicate), either after or near the same time the Nazgul are drawn to the Ring and Frodo. So it still seems a little logistic quandry for Sauron. Once Pippin gets to Gondor he wouldn't know one hobbit from the next. I guess it wouldn't matter to him at that point, would it??? But if I was Sauron, I'd be scatching my head a bit. Or maybe he would just drop the idea that the hobbit contact from Isengard had the Ring. Sorry....I'm thinking it out as I write. I mean, what else do I have to do? Oh yeah!! Work.





End Spoiler





HoneyElf!!! I watched the rope scene again and I don't get the same feeling as you do. I like how Elijah acts it. (and this is the moment I can insert that I am not uncritical because I am one of the few in here that DIDN't like his acting in All I Want!). ...... (slipped that in where it won't be noticed, didn't I?)


Homom:
I rolled my eyes and went "Doh!" last night when I got to the Osgiliath scene and found out they LOVE Sean's 'UN' speech


And here I am also at odds with most of the Faculty: I am also fond of the UN speech. It is hobbity, and a voice over there ties that dark movie up with a little hope. Okay--I admit to being a corny idealist here.

Hobmom:
I did love hearing them say how they don't like the films to be thought of as war films but want them to be recognized as the anti-war films they are.

Yes!!!!!!!!!!!

A few comments working backwards--

Y'know, I don't think I would have minded the UN speech nearly as much if it hadn't paralleled political rhetoric so well. Eru help me, I don't hear Sam--I hear George :eek: (which doesn't give me much of an anti-war feeling for it, I'm afraid). It's possible that if I'd heard it five years ago I would have loved it.

-------

On Andy & Elijah--Of course, it's hard to get past the first glaring difference between the two: Andy's Gap is one tooth to the side :eek: :p .

--------

IMHO, part of the problem with Sauron thinking the Ring is in two different places is that at the moment we have to combine the movies with the book, since we don't have the RotK movie yet. The whole Pippin-palantir thing is going to have to be changed somewhat, and everything might make sense after we see the movie version (well, there's always hope ;) ). Since the Osgiliath scene is only in the movie, only the movies will be able to make any sense of it.

The EE helped out a bit in that we at least saw that there were two bands of orcs, and the uruk-hai were "dominant." They would have reported only to Saruman, so Sauron wouldn't necessarily know that any other hobbits are involved until Pippin looks into the palantir. (And, as the book points out, since the uruk-hai are completely wiped out by the Rohirrim, not even Saruman would have known which--if any--halflings they were bringing back with them.)

But, all-in-all, I still think the Nazgul (both book and movie, actually) must have seriously delayed development--to be as old as they are and not have gotten the hang of "object permanence." :p [Hey, guys, if you sense the Ring and have it almost within your grasp and then you lose the scent, it's probably still around somewhere in the vicinity. Don't go flying off across the marshes... :rolleyes: ]

----------
originally posted by zkgrumpy
In the book, the Morgul (sp?) blade left a splinter in the wound, which was working its way toward Frodo's heart (though why the Wraith didn't just stab him in the heart is beyond me).
Because Frodo "resisted to the last," of course ;) . The wraith was trying to stab him in the heart. Gandalf explains all this to Frodo after he wakes up.

And, grumpy, a lot of people thought I was a guy when I started posting at Imladris--think it has anything to do with the fact that I edit medical writing 40 hours a week :D ?

Figures, eh? I read but don't post for a while, and then get post happy. :D

Is this RotK speculation, or just logical extrapolation??


Re: The problem of the Palantir


Even in the book, I thought the Palantir's were like phones before we got call display - in other words, when "answering a call" on one of them, you couldn't identify WHICH of the other palantirs was calling in any way other than by recognizing the voice at the other end. And without background noise to identify the location, you still couldn't know if the person was calling you from home or work or someone else's house - in other words, you had no way to identify the location of the phone the call was placed from.

Since there were two palantirs that we know of, when he saw Pippin in it, Sauron had absolutely no way of knowing for sure whether he was seeing him in the palantir at Minis Tirith or the one at Isengard. In the book, IMO, Aragorn uses this uncertainty to alert Sauron to his presence - and since he used it so soon after Pippin, do you notice that Sauron never did send his minions to Orthanc to find the hobbit? Even though Aragorn had in fact looked into the palantir from Orthanc, Sauron had no way of knowing this, and began to worry that the King had returned to Minis Tirith to challenge him. So this is where he concentrated his army.

Have I just made this all more complicated?? :D

:)
Me too, Narya--posting away when lately I've been content to lurk.

Narya said:
Since there were two palantirs that we know of, when he saw Pippin in it, Sauron had absolutely no way of knowing for sure whether he was seeing him in the palantir at Minis Tirith or the one at Isengard. In the book, IMO, Aragorn uses this uncertainty to alert Sauron to his presence - and since he used it so soon after Pippin, do you notice that Sauron never did send his minions to Orthanc to find the hobbit? Even though Aragorn had in fact looked into the palantir from Orthanc, Sauron had no way of knowing this, and began to worry that the King had returned to Minis Tirith to challenge him. So this is where he concentrated his army.

ahhhh...very good, Narya. Maybe so--you could be onto something. Though it seems like Gandalf said something in the book about Sauron thinking Saruman had Pippin . I'll have to go look it up. But you know, even if he did...well, maybe Gandalf doesn't know the mind of Sauron!! What you said could explain it all!! They sure are in a hurry to get Pippin out of Isengard--but then, they (Gandalf et al) don't know about movie Frodo with his Ring showing in Osgiliath. Hmmmmm....

TG Shaw:

But, all-in-all, I still think the Nazgul (both book and movie, actually) must have seriously delayed development--to be as old as they are and not have gotten the hang of "object permanence." [Hey, guys, if you sense the Ring and have it almost within your grasp and then you lose the scent, it's probably still around somewhere in the vicinity. Don't go flying off across the marshes... ]

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

:D :D


Oh, yeah, TG---I see what you mean about the UN speech. I just can't hear Sam as George. But if I did, I wouldn't like the speech either. Sam is so unGeorge I don't hear it as a might speech, because S and F are not fighting in that sense. But still trying to prevail with their hearts alone against those with greater brute power... But I do definitely understand why it can engender cautious reaction in this current climate. But it's a hobbit speaking!! No George in our movie! Please!! :D:D

Originally posted by Hobmom

I rolled my eyes and went "Doh!" last night when I got to the Osgiliath scene and found out they LOVE Sean's 'UN' speech. :eek:

Oh, my!

I guess they got caught up in the emotion of the scene.

Or maybe they actually do love the speech.:p Which is also a valid opinion, as are all opinions, need I remind you.;) And also happens to be *my* valid opinion:D I tend to agree with Alyon - I don't hear George at all in Sam's speech - but if I did, it totally would have ruined it for me too.

Honeyelf, as much as it kills me to remove Sam pictures, I had to edit your last post - that site is the original Site We Don't Link To.:o frodoandsam.net is the first place I think of for Frodo pics - lots of pics and it's PG-13.;)

And welcome, Grumpy!:k

Oops! Sorry Bridget! :o I forgot about "the site that dare not speak it's name." Does FrodoandSam.net still have the photo gallery up? Last I looked it had been removed?

Honey!

My hubby played a sweet little trick on me yesterday. While we were driving home (he picks me up from work) he said "When did you say the soundtrack comes out?" (no need to specify which soundtrack, of course). "I think its tomorrow" I said. "Oh, I thought it was next week" he replied. End of conversation. Not long after we arrived home I went into the kitchen and there it was, on the worktop:) So, last night I got a real taste of what awaits us with this film. Be afraid, be very afraid. I do not weep easily - but today my eyes are still sore:( Thank goodness for 'Half Fling' - if I start to get too emotional thinking about ROTK that is the perfect antidote - its hilarious, I adore it.:D

To change the subject - do Elijah and Andy look alike? Well, they've both got two eyes, a nose and a mouth:D But no, I can't see it myself.

Well, I thing I've seen most of the dvd now, but haven't heard all the commentaries, just the cast and part of the director's.

Elijah's thoughts were so peace-and-people-loving, just the way he comes across in real life. He's a very special young man.
Couldn't agree more, Hobmom. Very special, indeed.

Hope no-one takes this the wrong way because I love Sean, I really do, but does anyone agree that he tends to get over-excited and buts in when Lij is talking? Its probably because they're so at ease together that he feels he can do this, I also noticed it during their talks at Collectormania, but there are a few times during the commentary that Lij starts to make a point but because Sean takes over he never gets to finish it.

BLOSSOM - I'm so glad you chose to make a gif of Lij's reaction during the wig incident. After my first viewing of the extras that was one of the things which stuck in my mind. His face is just priceless!! And I think the "My dear Sam" scene is perfection, just beautiful:)

It was interesting on listening to the cast commentary to hear Elijah's thoughts on 'the great tales' scene. He said he thinks it's beautiful, but felt that after what Frodo and Sam have just been through in Osgiliath, they wouldn't be capable of being so lighthearted there. I tend to agree - I thought so when I saw it in the cinema. It's a lovely scene, book-canon, and we get a 'secret Sam smile' from Frodo - and while I rejoice the fact that it's there at all, I can totally see Elijah's point. As Elijah himself concludes: 'It is what it is.'

Yes, I found that interesting too and also agree with him. I'm sure someone here made that exact point when TTT originally came out - its fascinating to hear Elijah echoing our own thoughts.
Although, as someone has quite rightly pointed out (sorry, can't recall who) book Frodo was capable of cracking jokes even after Cirith Ungol.

Labouring under mammoth (oliphantine) workload for past 3 weeks and just when TT EE arrived! :( Am finally going to watch the movie tonight, though :) :) Cast commentaries will have to wait to be heard for a while longer, until I'm alone in the house .... ;)

Hobmom, THANK YOU for that link to the beautiful Oscar ad! :k I can't tell you how happy that made me. Note that Elijah's name comes before Viggo's - i.e. not in alphabetical order. NL seems to have nailed it this time. Go them.
(Seems to be working so far - eh Hobmom?)

from Tgshaw:
And notice they're using one that emphasizes the "elegant, slim" nostrils even more than the original pieta shot

Funny we should all be admiring the wondrous slim nostrils at this point. I've always thought them wondrously slim too. Which makes the following quote weirder than ever. Here it is - strong contender for The Faculty Lounge Bizarre Opinion of the Year Award:

Doch Elijah Wood besitzt nicht das Sanftes-Lamm-Gesicht eines Internatsmusterschülers. Dazu ist sein Schädel etwas zu rechteckig, sein Mund zu schmal, seine Nase zu breit. Es ist kein schönes, aber ein interessantes Antlitz, in das sich in einer Großaufnahme Leid, Verunsicherung oder Hoffnung interpretieren lassen, ohne dass es eine Miene verzieht.
Hanns-Georg Rodek, Die Welt
Yet Elijah Wood does not possess the tender-little-lamb face of a model public schoolboy (note for our North American friends: this means a live-in student at a private school!). His skull is slightly too square for that, his mouth too narrow, his nose too broad. His is not a beautiful face, but an interesting one which in close-up can convey suffering, uncertainty or hope without moving a muscle.

Erm, quite how even Elijah's face can convey anything without moving a muscle - not even the famous lateral aspect of the mastoid process or even the anterior half of the superior nuchal line (thanks Mariole -:D ) I fail to see. Or have I missed something? Are we (or is Mr Rodek) into nanoexpressions here - ones even smaller than microexpressions, perhaps involving individual cell movements? Can screencaps be enlarged to reveal DNA? Should we use an electron microscope? The possibilities are endless ....

Tg, sorry it's taken me so long to come back to you about the "The Good Son" DVD. I found mine by chance in my local hypermarket - a French chain, but not in France! - and was so amazed to see it sitting there on the shelf that I bought it on the spot. None left now - I suspect the local EW fan club zeroed in and snapped up the lot. It seems to be a joint issue by foxfilm.nl and fox.be, no doubt aimed at the Belgian, Dutch and French markets. Soundtracks also in Italian ("L'Innocenza del Divolo", Spanish "El Buen Hijo", French "Le Bon Fils", German "Das zweite Gesicht" and Dutch "The Good Son" (!). A small pic of Elijah with Mac has appeared on the front in addition to the original closeup of Mac's eye, and Elijah's name appears in the back cover synopsis too. Seems someone has finally recognised EW is, well, a bit famous these days!
amazon.co.uk has a DVD with Region 2 encoding here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005UWN6/ref=sr_aps_dvd_1_1/026-2425130-8290037). It also has "All I Want" and "Forever Young" on DVD.

But amazon.de has (or is about to have) new DVDs of Paradise (Sommerparadies), Oliver Twist and Deep Impact as well! Will simply have to order them. (It also has a very out-of-date fanbook on Elijah: can do without that, I suspect :D )
And amazon.fr has - wait for it - Bumblebee ("La Mémoire Volée") and The War ("A Chacun sa Guerre") on DVD!
All these seem to be new issues in time for Christmas.
Are these DVDs really only available in Region 2 encoding? Does EW have more fans in Europe than in the US? All very strange.
If anyone needs more info or help in ordering, just email me :)

I may need some help with screencapping too: I don't seem to have a software DVD decoder! Can anyone throw any light on that?

Just one small point about TT EE Disk 4. Having watched that and read the Première article at TORN, I'm beginning to understand why Sean said of Elijah in Brian Sewell's book that "I might not have survived the journey had this young prince of an actor not taken me under his wing". For a variety of reasons, Sean seems to have been an unhappy guy, impatient for the filming to end, for some of the time in NZ. That last sequence in the "filming of" section seems to show just how much support Elijah gave him: he appears to be consoling Sean after a stressful day's filming. Aaaah :k

Serena- Hobmom, THANK YOU for that link to the beautiful Oscar ad! I can't tell you how happy that made me. Note that Elijah's name comes before Viggo's - i.e. not in alphabetical order. NL seems to have nailed it this time. Go them.(Seems to be working so far - eh Hobmom?)


Heehee.. Yes it is. We must keep up the positive thinking, Serena.

Wouldn't it be wonderful to actually see Elijah win?! C'mon even those amongst us who are unimpressed with most awards would be tickled pink to see him get the top nod, that is SO well deserved, for work we have known all along was brilliant.

Elijah says somewhere in the commentary or in the TRL interview, I think, that he does feel it would be wonderful for the films and PJ in particular to get recognition for what has been acomplished.
Though Elijah is too modest to say anything about himself I do believe Sean, for one, is rooting mightily for an Elijah win, as well.

Sean just keeps saying.."Wait till you see where Elijah goes with Frodo..."

Seanwise surely knows of what he speaks.;)

Serena, I loved your post! LOL!

You know, it speaks to the refined elegance of the Faculty that, despite Elijah's nearly crippling handicaps of the square homely face, the broad nose, puny mouth, and the near rigor of his frozen muscles, we can still manage to appreciate his acting. Are we shallow, drooling fangurls who run squealing and squeeing after the poster-perfect face of the moment? No, we are deep thinkers, selfless in our pursuit of true artistic merit which, fortunately for poor beauty-challenged Elijah, does not rely upon such trivial and transitory aspects as, oh say, pouty lips, arresting eyes, and smooth skin. These traits are superficial by definition, and will surely pass in the fullness of time. Thank heavens we have risen above the crass admiration of mere flesh (with of course a nod to the all-important skeletal structure) to float in the serene bliss of intellectual appreciation of this truly inhuman representative from the beyond (we know he is; Hanns-Georg Rodek of Die Welt as much as said so). :p

I think this warrants further study. Bring on the electron microscope! :D

The American DVD market is baffling. Why, they never even brought out Chain of Fools?!? :rolleyes: I can feel myself folding -- must buy more DVDs!

Serena, I'm not sure what you mean by "software DVD decoder" -- please help? For screen caps, I use the WinDVD program that came with my Windows machine. If you pause and click Shift+P it captures the pic. Is this what you mean, or something else? You do need a DVD player in your computer to make the caps, but it should come with whatever software you need.

Shireling, I think the following pic supports your analysis of "they've both got two eyes, a nose and a mouth." It's a distorted pic, so you can see even more clearly that Elijah's homely square braincase, high forehead, and squinchy mouth do not match Andy's arched eyebrows and rounder shape. However, I'm still having trouble seeing the "broad nose" bit:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/no.jpg


Cast commentary: Yes, Shireling, I'm afraid that too much of my cast commentary listening experience was taken up by me shouting at the screen, "Sean, shut up!" He does run at the mouth. He did that in the first one as well, but it was even more apparent in this one. It takes him a looooong while to get to his point, and he just goes on and on and on... I mean, he seems like an okay guy, but he does like to hear himself talk. Billy and Dom were much more fun to listen to. They completely cracked me up. Their favorite comment of mine was in the fly-over of the armies marching out of Barad-dur and Billy says, "They actually used 4 million ants for this scene and dressed them in orc costumes." And Dom adds that the ants "agreed to have 4 of their 6 legs removed for this shot. That's just an example of the passion and commitment that everyone brought to this movie." (I'm sorry, I'm cracking up even writing about it.) I also liked their whirlwind one-liners for the producers/writers/director and cast when the credits came up at the end. The only name they skipped was Elijah Wood. Dom muttered something I couldn't quite catch, along the lines of, "Don't know who that was ... Oh, Ian McKellan" and on they went. Hysterical.

And I'm even more in love with Miranda Otto's performance after hearing her commentary than I was before -- and I really really admired her performance. She's wonderful. I also enjoyed Brad Dourif's comments. He did jump in to the Faramir scene (people on short time schedules, do pop over to the Faramir scene in the cave where he lifts the Ring on his sword, very interesting remarks). Anyway, Brad gives this lovely rave right after that about Elijah's performance, how EW managed to walk that very fine line for this character that was basically being torn apart, but his suffering never became tiresome. Brad says, "I don't think I would have been able to do that. I'm in awe of him." (Mariole grins with loving-parent glee.)

I also think I can safely say that I have more information than I needed to know about Gollum. I mean, he is a marvel, and he does have a quite interesting special documentary on him, and Andy Serkis is a charming and entertaining man, but there was more than one character in this movie. Oh well, from a historical perspective this will become known as the "Rohan/Gollum" movie, so I suppose I'll let it go this time (especially as I have no choice). I did enjoy Elijah talking about his challenge trying to handle some of the "Olde wording" that they'd put into the Faramir-capture scene the night before (what folks are calling Fiesty!Fro). I can see how he was disappointed in the line, but that was not my impression when watching. When I was actually watching the extended scene, I was yelling, "Go, Frodo!" But I think it's that objectivity that an actor can show about their own performance (and Miranda Otto has this in spades) that marks the really good ones. So I'm wondering how many of these "deleted scenes" were scenes that the actors weren't entirely happy with and didn't mind losing (Orlando Bloom's comments on "The Final Tally" scene also come to mind, and I really enjoyed that scene). Or maybe this is how folks deal with being cut?

Tg, I'm afraid you're completely in the dog house with me. Your comment about hearing George Bush's words in the UN speech -- :eek: Oh, dear, I'll never be able to hear it again without writhing in agony. Sorry, Sam! :p

Serena, enjoy your first viewing tonight! :k

.....his mouth too narrow, his nose too broad. His is not a beautiful face... And the Academy Award for most clueless comment ever made in the whole history of film reviews goes, by unanimous vote and with resounding applause, to Mr. Hanns-Georg Rodek, Die Welt. :rolleyes:


I really don't like Sam's UN speech. My main quibble with is was that it seemed to demonstrate lack of faith in the filmmakers' ablility to convey their own message, lack of faith in their audience's ability to understand. Here we've been sitting through a whole film showing us a magnificent tale of how people live through evil and suffering, how they still deem it worthwhile to fight back, to cling to hope and to the good in the world, and then one of the main characters has to step out of the story and spell this out for us in great detail and many words, in case we didn't get it? That's been my view all along. It's a case of "tell, don't show", and it doesn't work for me at all.

In addition I've also always felt that it easily could be interpreted to have a certain political vibe, although I really don't think that was PJ's intention.


I want to thank those of you who marked SEE stuff as spoilers for almost a week :k - it's helped me avoid some of the things I'd like to see for myself. The SEE is still not on sale here, the latest I heard was "Maybe next week", and shipping from abroad seems to have collapsed too.... I'll be away from the boards now for some time, partly to avoid spoilers and mostly for "RL is too hectic" reasons, and hopefully will eventually get to see it so that I can join in the discussions.


((((Faculty))))

TTT EE SPOILERS!






A question/comment or 3...

>>Just one small point about TT EE Disk 4. Having watched that and read the Première article at TORN, I'm beginning to understand why Sean said of Elijah in Brian Sewell's book that "I might not have survived the journey had this young prince of an actor not taken me under his wing".

Was it the "Four Hobbits walk into a bar..." article where Elijah said that they (casting director?) sat him down next to Sean at the table because Sean was older? Funny to think that EW would take someone older under his wing, but he probably has more acting experience than some of the older actors.

>>For a variety of reasons, Sean seems to have been an unhappy guy, impatient for the filming to end, for some of the time in NZ.

One line in the cast commentary explains the whole thing:

PJ: Hold the sword under his (Sean's) chin.
EW: Which one?

(followed by a lot of laughter and a comment from EW about Sean setting himself up by being so sensitive about his weight.)

If Sean was lugging 40 extra pounds around for 15 months, no wonder he was unhappy. The 4 hobbits article, he said something about that too. (having lugged far more than that around for the past 35 years, hey, I can relate!)

>> That last sequence in the "filming of" section seems to show just how much support Elijah gave him: he appears to be consoling Sean after a stressful day's filming. Aaaah

It makes the tired hurt look in Sam's eyes even more believable. :::: sniffle ::::

>>>Cast commentary: Yes, Shireling, I'm afraid that too much of my cast commentary listening experience was taken up by me shouting at the screen, "Sean, shut up!" He does run at the mouth. He did that in the first one as well, but it was even more apparent in this one. It takes him a looooong while to get to his point, and he just goes on and on and on...

Ah, yes, but what the man had to say!!! You could tell where Sean's heart lies - the minute he got on history, he was goooone. :) I could have listened to him for a long time. Get EW, DM, and BB together, you've got a bunch of naughty guys; get Sean talking, you've got a historian on your hands.

Re: funny faces:

I remember - um - Sissy Spacek? - talking about Marilyn Monroe on a documentary. They were walking down a street; nobody recognized "Norma Jean". MM said, "Do you want to see me turn it on?" It was like she threw a switch, and suddenly the way she held her head and body and the way she moved changed, and she was Marilyn Monroe and everyone started noticing her.

If you analyze EW's face, it isn't perfectly symmetrical, and with the way he wears his hair sometimes and that scraggly little beard, he's downright funnylooking. At those times, he's looking like a 22 year old slightly gawky kid. But when he got into his character, and started using his eyes and eyebrows (ok, ok - nostrils, too <g>), he became incredibly beautiful. The other thing was the longer curly hair - it emphasized the size of his eyes.

I thought it was interesting - Sean? said something about everyone else having something - a prop or something - to act off of but Elijah, who only had his two beautiful big blue eyes...

As with the FotR commentary, it was funny how they all started off with anecdotes and light talk and by the end of the movie, they were discussing history and world events and religion and how the movie had so much symbolism - culminating with unanimous awe over the scene with Frodo's encounter with the Nazgul. They were all apparently as blown away by that scene as I was. The scene probably consisted of EW walking out there, staring at a tennis ball, and holding up a ring with some fans (electric ;>) blowing his hair and cloak around, but the color (medieval painting), slow-mo, wings beating like a heartbeat, and the sacrificial nature of the act absolutely knocked me off my feet.

Hawks and doves:

I think it's interesting on several lists that I'm on, that the overwhelming message of the book is interpreted as pacifist. It was that way in the late 60's and 70's, when a lot of counter- and college- culture was reading the book. Others were reading it, too, which is why you got "Program Gandalf" and "Subroutine Frodo" (hey, it was FORTRAN) in military simulations.

I guess I see it differently. Sauron and Saruman are making war to destroy and dominate, though it's never clear to me why except that they are Really Bad Guys. It's not like they wanted the race of Men as slaves, or to take up residence at Rivendell, or make everybody worship Sauron or the Goau'ld - ooops - wrong universe <g>, and they weren't defending themselves from armed hordes of rampaging Hobbits. They were just mean and nasty and destructive for its own sake, apparently.

All of Middle Earth, as a result, had to go to war, which they did reluctantly. They were forced to kill and destroy in order to protect what was "green and good". They got to the point where even the gentlest of characters - the hobbits - were throwing stones and waving swords with the best of them. I loved Merry so much when he yelled at Treebeard, and said "There won't be any Shire" to Pippen.

I won't draw direct parallels to world events, but I do think that the message can be interpreted in more than one way. Tolkien obviously hated the destruction and loss and dreadful waste of war, but a whole lot of the story is war and conflict, and great sacrifices were made to preserve what Sam talked about - "There's some good in this world and it's worth fighting for".

Of course, it also might just be a ripping good story. :)

Half-Flings: Where does that clip come from? Is it a CD that's out? I did a search on Viggo's name on Amazon, but just came up with movies and books (BOOKS?!? Is there anything that man can't do?)

The Site that Is Not Named: I won't ask for a public explanation; if someone could email me privately (Hobmom?), what's up with that? Are there sites we're not supposed to link to? (kzimmerman@cox.net)


Ashes to ashes...
>>>I was glad to hear Elijah admit, after Sean saying that in the car Elijah's cigarrete ashes kept blowing back into Sean's face..<<<

My grandfather, a big, rough-spoken, soft-hearted curmudgeon, had an old - um 1940-something Ford sedan. When we went to visit him, and he'd take us somewhere in the car, we (my 3 bros and sister) would have a knock-down drag-out fight to see who had to sit in the seat directly behind the driver's seat. See, my grandfather smoked (mostly they weren't even lit so he just kind of chewed on them) these great big cigars. From time to time, he'd spit tobacco juice out the open window.

Sean should count his blessings. ;-D

(I was youngest - guess who lost?)


~grumpy (Can you tell I got my TTT: EE and stayed up till 3 am? <g>)
"This isn't Gainsborough's Blue Boy, you know!" -- Janish, Ghostbusters II
(Geez. Long message. Sorry!)

I really don't like Sam's UN speech. My main quibble with is was that it seemed to demonstrate lack of faith in the filmmakers' ablility to convey their own message, lack of faith in their audience's ability to understand. Here we've been sitting through a whole film showing us a magnificent tale of how people live through evil and suffering, how they still deem it worthwhile to fight back, to cling to hope and to the good in the world, and then one of the main characters has to step out of the story and spell this out for us in great detail and many words, in case we didn't get it? That's been my view all along. It's a case of "tell, don't show", and it doesn't work for me at all.

But, Maeg, that bit - not the words, but the stepping out of the story - is directly out of the book. On the Stair of Cirith Ungol, Tolkien has Sam step back form the story for a minute to discuss the nature of the tale they are in and the kind of story it will make. I'm probably being dense, but what is the difference? At least PJ didn't have Sam turn to the camera and deliver this soliquouy (sp?) I shall continue to be a fan of Sam's "UN" speech.

I just have to squeeee for a minute here. My husband ordered a projector which we will henceforth be pumping all our video through. I have been saying for months that when we got a new TV I had only ONE requirement; that I be able to see the tear on Frodo's chin after Gandalf has fallen. Well the projector was deliverd today, and my husband came home from lunch to plug it in and see if it works. Guess what it passes my test! :) :) :)

My goodness, Serena, who was that German guy looking at? His is not a beautiful face....?????? Well, there we go again. Another parellel! I can't remember where the quote is just now or I wouldn't mangle it by paraphrasing but it is Gandalf talking about how Frodo will always have the look of a glass filled with light for those who have eyes to see. Apparently this gentleman is amoung the clueless without eyes!

Honey!

Honeyelf, I'm saying this is my opinion, not that others have to agree.

To me, Sam *is* in fact addressing the audience in the film, in reality making a statement or rather a summary. That's the way it comes across.
OTOH, his musings while resting at the stairs work well in the book, where they seem like contemplative thoughts and reflections, being quietly discussed with Frodo.
They do not work for me in the film, for the reasons I've stated. PJ has been very clear on the necessity of adapting the storyline to be sure that the films are about "Show, not tell" in other matters. The UN speech is an obvious instance of going the other way, to me, and it takes me right out of the story.

We shall just have to agree to disagree, which is fine - it would be rather boring if everyone here agreed about everything.

My goodness, Serena, who was that German guy looking at? His is not a beautiful face....??????

His skull is slightly too square for that, his mouth too narrow, his nose too broad. His is not a beautiful face, but an interesting one which in close-up can convey suffering, uncertainty or hope without moving a muscle.

This guy is in serious denial...:rolleyes:


About Premiere magazine. Are the hobbits on the cover of the December issue??? Everywhere I go I am just finding the November issue with Renee Zeliwiger on the cover. Or is this a different magazine altogether?. I feel like I'm in one of those dreams where you keep dialing the phone wrong....dialing for Hobbits, and Renee keeps answering...

Originally posted by serena
Tg, sorry it's taken me so long to come back to you about the "The Good Son" DVD. I found mine by chance in my local hypermarket... It seems to be a joint issue by foxfilm.nl and fox.be, no doubt aimed at the Belgian, Dutch and French markets... amazon.co.uk has a DVD with Region 2 encoding here (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/B00005UWN6/ref=sr_aps_dvd_1_1/026-2425130-8290037). It also has "All I Want" and "Forever Young" on DVD.

But amazon.de has (or is about to have) new DVDs of Paradise (Sommerparadies), Oliver Twist and Deep Impact as well! Will simply have to order them. (It also has a very out-of-date fanbook on Elijah: can do without that, I suspect :D )
And amazon.fr has - wait for it - Bumblebee ("La Mémoire Volée") and The War ("A Chacun sa Guerre") on DVD!
All these seem to be new issues in time for Christmas.
Are these DVDs really only available in Region 2 encoding? Does EW have more fans in Europe than in the US? All very strange.
If anyone needs more info or help in ordering, just email me :)

I may need some help with screencapping too: I don't seem to have a software DVD decoder! Can anyone throw any light on that?
Yeah, it's pretty weird. But out of the ones you named, the only ones that have never come out on Region 1 DVD coding are The Good Son, Paradise, and Oliver Twist--and the Faculty research collaborator in KL was able to send me a copy of OT on VCD :p . I also have Chain of Fools, Flipper, and The Witness on VCD--the only screencappable format they seem to be available in. The nice thing about VCDs is that they don't have any of that Region nonsense to worry about :rolleyes: .

So the ones I can't screencap are: Child in the Night, Paradise, The Good Son, North, and Radio Flyer (And I won't screencap TAMTSNBN because I bought it first on VHS and simply refuse to buy it on DVD--but screencaps of that wouldn't do any good anyway, since you can't see Elijah in it :rolleyes: .)

And, Serena, I'll have to join with Mariole in asking just what you mean about DVD decoding... :confused: Screencapping does have to be done on a computer--which is why I have a DVD drive but no DVD player ;) . If you have a DVD drive that didn't come with pre-loaded software, I think most people here have had the best luck with PowerDVD. I use WinDVD, too, since it came with my computer, but it's not the best program available.

For a variety of reasons, Sean seems to have been an unhappy guy, impatient for the filming to end, for some of the time in NZ...
In some recent interview--the LA Times one, maybe?--Sean said that when he was cast, he and his wife had just bought a new house and he was on edge about financial matters. Until FotR premiered no one knew if it would make money or be a flop, so he was probably in that state throughout primary filming.

The weight thing must have been a bummer, too. He talked once about having "sneaked off" to play tennis--but someone squealed on him, and PJ made him eat extra to make up for it :( . Ah, the tribulations of being the only Harfoot among all those Fallohides (to anyone scratching their head--it's in the Prologue under "Concerning Hobbits" ;) ). He looked so fantastic when he was doing PR for FotR--without the extra weight--I can see why he'd want to get rid of it. Couldn't have made the physical demands of the acting any easier, either.

From seeing Sean do some interviews, I do think he's an extravert. Interesting that book-Sam is, too--if there's no one else around to talk to, he talks to himself :) . But that part of his personality seems to be de-emphasized in the movies.

----------------

And, I don't really care what "that German guy" thinks--but I'm awfully glad Fran Walsh thought Elijah had "an interesting face"! :cool:

I am as happy as a pig in ... mud. I'm wallowing in this pre-ROTK media blitz and thoroughly enjoying it! I do make sure to skip over paragraphs where people are determined to tell me part of the plot of ROTK :rolleyes: -- save that for the reviews, guys! But I do enjoy the less-spoilery interviews and the excitement.

Alyon, have no fears. The 4 hobbits are on the cover of the December Premiere. It probably just hasn't rolled out in your area yet.

Peter Jackson quotes from the Newsweek ROTK feature released this week:
A reporter ... asks if the studio will let him make “Return of the King” as long as it needs to be. Jackson’s eyes get wide, and he grins: “I’ll make them let me.”
(*Mariole cheers!*)

And even with three hours and 12 minutes to work with, [Jackson] has had to make cuts that will initially cause gasping among some fans.
I think we all know what most of these cuts are. He does have to wind up the story the way he started out. But this is a shorter time than I'd heard previously -- early ticket holders found a run time of 3-1/2 hours printed on their tickets. Well, maybe it's not decided yet!

You can find the whole article here: http://www.msnbc.com/news/996638.asp
Warning: the article contains spoilers and doesn't flag them in advance -- read slowly and prepare to skip ahead!

Here are some cute answers to a couple of "blunders" found in FOTR:
Blunder No. 2: “While Arwen is carrying Frodo to the Ford, a close-up of his face shows his eyes and mouth covered in a green, pus-type substance. Moments later, his face is clean.”
Jackson: Yeah, we started with the pus and then we got just a bit revolted by it. We didn’t think Elijah looked very good with pus.
(*It must be that square face...*)

Blunder No. 3: “When Arwen and Frodo are being chased on horseback by the Ringwraiths, the soundtrack to the scene is a cantering horse. A canter is three beats, whereas a gallop—which is what the horses on screen are doing—is four very fast beats that often sound like a single beat.”
Jackson: I should’ve -- well, it’s too late to fire anyone. The damage has been done.
:D Yes, it's too late to get my money back now. Thank heavens there are fans who are keeping track of these mistakes for us!

The following Elijah quotes are from this article on the promo tour to Toronto:
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/cpress/20031121/ca_pr_on_en/film_hobbits_1

"I never had a doubt in my mind that the movies were going to be brilliant. Whether they were successful or not was kind of irrelevant." - Elijah Wood (Frodo Baggins).
Wood, whose eyes are not CGI-enhanced but truly are as big and blue as they appear on screen, waxes rhapsodic about the experience of letting Jackson take him on such a journey.
"It's been amazing. His accomplishment, what he's been able to do with these books, bringing them to the screen, and consequently sending his direction out over thousands of artists and incredibly passionate people, is incredible!"

From a Radio Interview Transcript at http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1069645753 --
Does he know Michael Jackson? “No...” And will he ever get facial plastic surgery like him? “God, no!”
(*What is it with people wanting to compare Elijah to Michael Jackson?!? That's oogy!*)

Next topic; movies. Has he ever seen the Original Slap Shot 3? And he hasn’t! So then the radio people start jeering at him and telling him to get of Canada. (What are they DOING?) But when they asked him if he had seen Scarface and the Godfather Trilogy and he replied “Yes sir!”, they relented and said, “You’re alright man!”

After Elijah profusely thanks the radio crew, says, “Have a great morning!” then leaves, they call him “the nicest hobbit ever” because apparently no one ever thanks them for being on their show!
You know, just thinking about some of the nonsense that these folks have to put up with for promoting the film has my heart go out to them. Hang in there, Elijah! I'm rooting for you, buddy!

Speaking of looks.

How does Edward Furlong manage to get good reviews from any woman who becomes involved with him? Is he really that cute?

Orlando Bloom is a lovely guy, but he's a little too exotic to be angelic looking. I could so see him playing a villian, like Shylock maybe? or how about the Devil in "Faust?" Ooooooooooo think how convincing he'd be. Or how about the god Apollo?

Edward and Elijah would be real funny as brothers. How about an earthy version of the Corsican Brothers, but without the drugs and other stuff that Cheech and Chong made.

(Genx'ers will know that one!:D )

or even a male version of the fairy tale "Snow White and Rose Red" Guess which one fits Elijah?

Great posts, Faculty :) !

SCS, I don't know what Edward Furlong looks like nowadays. I only know him from "Terminator 2" and that is long ago... 11, 12 years?

Thanks, Maeglian, for nominating H.-G. R. for the Academy Award for most clueless comment ever made in the whole history of film reviews! He had it coming to him :D .
This once even I knew this weird review thingie from my net search, and I'm completely with Tg, it is just rubbish! I'd say, this guy wore two eye patches during the film.

It's a pity that the "Huck Finn" DVD in our region don't have any commentaries... - but if I wish I could watch it with Italian dubbing plus French subtitles. Fabulous, eh? :rolleyes:

In a fit of supernatural heroism I decided to choose the TTT EE as Christmas present for hubby and me :o .
And since I'm not avoiding your viewing comments I have many opportunities to train my willpower (or to kick myself :p )!

Mariole, thanks for the interesting links :) !

Cheers!

With literally just a couple of minutes here (holidays drive my workaholic boss crazy)--I will read the complete articles/interviews later, Mariole! Thanks for the links!



"I never had a doubt in my mind that the movies were going to be brilliant. Whether they were successful or not was kind of irrelevant." - Elijah Wood (Frodo Baggins).
Wow... Is it any wonder we love this guy? :cool:


Wood, whose eyes are not CGI-enhanced...
Remember right after FotR was released when a lot of people thought they were? :p

...waxes rhapsodic about the experience of letting Jackson take him on such a journey.
"It's been amazing. His accomplishment, what he's been able to do with these books, bringing them to the screen, and consequently sending his direction out over thousands of artists and incredibly passionate people, is incredible!"
As articulate as Elwood is, he must have been awfully excited here--using "incredibly" and "incredible" only three words apart ;) .

-------------------------------------------------

Whiteling--Love the Henry Van Dyke quote. :) :) (Sounds like something Elijah might say ;) .)

Christmas!?...supernatural heroism, indeed :eek: !

Whiteling, I love your location! LOL! :D So fitting!

That Clueless Reviewer must have been on some vision- or mind-altering substance when he saw the film. Broad nose?!?!! What the??? OK, he does have a square face, and his mouth isn't wide. Same thing with Michelangelo's David. You get the drift.:p

It does sound as though Seanwise was full of fretting and worry during the long LOTR shoot. Understandable given where he was in his life at the time, married with child and expensive new home, and the uncertain future of the project during filming .....incredible as it may seem now. Elijah, on the other hand, was a young man with no cares in the world ;), apart from the responsibility of being the lead actor and main character at the tender age of eighteen, and being far away from home for the first time. Right, no pressure at all.:p The way he embraced the experience, his unfailing good cheer, patience and focus during the whole lengthy process, are as impressive and endearing to me as his acting achievement. But I don't know why I am going on like this, telling you all things you already know!:o :rolleyes: :)

I was watching Navy CICS last night (why they cast Mark Harmon as a geezer and not the romantic lead is beyond me - oh, yeah - David McCallum is in it, too - Illya Lives!). In one scene, the Young Hot Agent was assigned to check out a bar where the Villainess of the Week hung out. He asked MH character (Gibbs) if he could drink. Gibbs said, "Sure - sasparilla". YHA complained, and Gibbs said "Shane did". YHA: "Shane?" YHFA: "Alan Ladd".

Bar scene: YHA is at the bar, VotW is dancing. YHA and bartender are discussing "Shane". Bartender: "...so Jack Palance shoots Elisha Cook, and the bullet lifts him off the ground and he goes SPLAT in the mud..."

YHA is distracted and exchanges barbs with VotW, then turns back to the bartender and says:

"...So, Jack Palance shoots Elijah Wood..."

Do I need to say that while the bartender shook his head and turned away, I was practically falling off the couch laughing? Scared the cats, I did.

So, Elijah is a household name....

~grumpyandstillgiggling
(I think we can safely assume that Don Bellesario has seen the LotR movies)

Yay! Elijah made it into prime-time drama dialogue! Funny!

Now that he lives in NY I wonder if he'll turn up as a guest star on NY shows like Law and Order , there's three versions so there must be a juicy villain role on one of them for him. I'd like to see him try TV once in awhile. Beyond SNL, that is. In England the actors have no qualms about whether they do TV or films if the project is good. US actors sometimes make a distinction thinking TV is inferior. I doubt Elijah would baulk at an interesting role wherever it's presented. NY casting directors should latch onto a good thing while he lives there.;)

Goldie-
The way he embraced the experience, his unfailing good cheer, patience and focus during the whole lengthy process, are as impressive and endearing to me as his acting achievement. But I don't know why I am going on like this, telling you all things you already know!

Yes, I wish I had his genes! (All right, and his jeans. :rolleyes: :D ;) )

Tg-As articulate as Elwood is, he must have been awfully excited here--using "incredibly" and "incredible" only three words apart

I thought the same thing! Or it's a fault of that home-schooling. ;)

So many great things in all the features on the EEDVD. Did anyone see the Viggo/stunt-men/Orli head-butting part? Evidently they didn't head-butt the hobbits as often(with the possible exception of Dom, who seems to get into all the mischief) and Elijah, trying to define this 'guy-behavior', said..."I don't know what it is..... spontaneous, violent, love?"

That's quotably more articulate. But is anyone else amazed that they all survived all this time in such a highly testosterone-charged atmosphere? And why must men slam their heads into each other to show they 'care'? I'm a girl, I don't understand this. Though I do have males in the family and, yes, they are just as.... male.:rolleyes:

I really want to see the blooper reels that are supposedly to be included in an upcoming DVD version. I wonder how much of this 'guy' behavior Elijah got involved in. I know he and Dom messed up Orlando's trailer once but that's mild compared to the Viggo-instigated antics. I am becoming a little afraid of Viggo.:eek:





Slight ROTK Soundtrack Spoilers.......





Has anyone listened to it yet?

It promises all the Fro-angst we've been hoping for. And I think it's the best of the three soundtracks. It has the grandest heroic themes and the saddest most moving Hobbit music. What got me sniffling the most was after all the heavily dramatic music that accompanies all those Mordor scenes and then the Cormallen part(which seems to have been blended into Pellenor Fields) the music switches back to the cheerful FOTR Shire-Hobbit theme and ...Waaaaah!!!!! I think that gets to me more than the gorgeously sad Grey Havens and Annie Lennox song.

I think I'm still rather stunned from finally hearing the music. If it's any indicator, I think Elijah is going to deliver the heart-breaking performance we all know he is capable of.

I just watched "The Bumblebee Flies Anyway".


Bumblebee spoilers!



:::: sniffle ::::
:::: snorch ::::
:::: bawl ::::
:::::: blowing nose vigorously :::::::


Well, that was a three-hanky one. These new-fangled movie-makers don't know how to make artistic movies. Why, in *my* day, when they first started getting away with movies not having happy endings and made all of those horrible 1970's movies , Barney would have pushed Wazzisname out of the chair and gone over the roof, the kid would have committed suicide, the female doc would have killed the male doc and run off with the girlfriend. But at least this had a life-affirming if frustrating ending. "Hi"!?!?!?!?!

Good things:
1. Gratuitous nipple shots.
2. Sleeping Elijah. Always good. The kid looks like an angel.
3. That CGI on the color of his eyes (tee hee)
4. Bare-armed sawing metal shot (I wonder if he'll ever bulk up like other actors do?)
5. Kissing. Did you know that there's a kissing school where actors go to learn how to smooch on-screen?
6. A movie that didn't overstretch itself. Simple story, told simply.
7. Lots of eyebrow and eyeball acting. (I'm not sure about nostrils; will have to watch it again <g>)
8. Good twist. I was sure it was going to be a standard "Kid accidently kills parent; has memory erased" thing.

Bad things: I'm now reduced to watching Kid-flicks. Harrumph.

I can see why he would have picked this one to do - it had some substance to it. If he's making any significant amount of money from LotR, he's fortunate that he can pick and choose the ones that he likes. This was a good one perfectly suited to that angelic (if homely :::: howling with laughter :::: ) face and those big blue eyes. How the ding-dong hey does he do it?!?

Ah, yes, an evening well spent. Now I have to go make the stuffing anyway and it's nearly 11 pm and the turkey has to be in the oven by 7 am.

:::: sigh ::::

It's going to be a long 24 hours.

For those points north, south, and across the Puddle, tomorrow is Thanksgiving, when I will be giving fervent thanks for brilliant young blue-eyed actors and my DVD player, and that I am not on this day a turkey.

~grumpy and it's not getting any earlier!!!

I read the book version of "TheBumblebee Flies Anyway" and then remembered what the movie version of "The chocolate War" was like, and was very frightened at first.But when I realized Barney was going to be played by Elijah, I felt better.

There is also a picture where at first I was frightened because Elijah looked like he smoked too much Pipe Weed. Then I felt better, because there is Peacefulness and Comfort in his Wild Eyed stare, True?

I wonder who was the model for "David" sculpture? It would be real funny if the real David had equally quicky looks, it was probably made to match his equally quirky nature. LOL.

Interrupting here, to let UK Facultiers know that there's a 2 page interview with Elijah in the December 1st issue of "Woman" magazine. (Its got Sarah-Lou from Corrie on t'cover :p )

If I get it myself (would only do so for the Elwood interview of course ;) ) I'll post any good quotes if I can.

quicksilver--from all us non-UKers :k :k for any quotes you can post!

grumpy and scs--O-o-o-h-h-h, yes!! The book and the movie of Bumblebee are very different from each other :eek: !! IMVHO, the folks who made the movie picked up one partlicular sentence from the book and rewrote the entire story around it. From darkness to hope (without guarantee ;) )--including a brief glimpse of Earendil/Venus during the climactic scene. :)

scs--I'm not sure from your post if you've watched the Bumblebee movie or not. It can be a tearjerker, as grumpy said, but it's definitely no longer a Robert Cormier story :eek: , so I don't think you have to be afraid of it :) . And there are a few places that could qualify as a "wild-eyed stare" :p so I'm not sure which one you've seen (one guess: is it just his head, with a glimpse of blue PJs?).

And grumpy, you're making me doubt my memory of The Best Delivered Mundane Line in the History of Filmmaking: I thought it was "Hello." ;) :cool: . (To longtime thread readers--Yes, I did briefly give that coveted spot to "They're here," from TTT, but have gone back to my original pick. I don't think anyone but Elijah could have done it--it's just so amazingly subtle and absolutely right.)

In case I don't find anything more to say before I leave for my mom's house and computer exile in a couple of hours--happy Thanksgiving and hope one and all have a great weekend. :) If anyone needs family entertainment, remember Avalon has a lot of Thanksgiving scenes ;) . If anyone needs non-family entertainment, so does The Ice Storm :eek: .

Quote by Mariole of a quote from a radio interview:
Does he know Michael Jackson? “No...” And will he ever get facial plastic surgery like him? “God, no!”
(*What is it with people wanting to compare Elijah to Michael Jackson?!? That's oogy!*)

As far as I know, it all sprang from one widely-quoted remark by Elvis Mitchell in the NY Times
here (http://uk.geocities.com/compleatsb2/lotr-review-44.html):
"He [EW] sometimes seems to possess the visage that Michael Jackson has spent a lot of money having sculptured by man-made means. "
How anyone could turn that on its head by suggesting (however facetiously) that Elijah might have plastic surgery is beyond me!

Tg and Mariole, thank you for the hints about software DVD decoders! Thanks to you I found and downloaded a free version of WinDVD last night - and it works! :) :) Yippee. Did some caps of "The Good Son". Now to make sense of them ....

According to a "Return of the King Technical Specs!" listing here - http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/9/1069940077 - the final running time of ROTK is 3 HRS 20 MIN 49 SEC

So, we've been told 3:12, 3:21, and 3:30. I'm now betting on 3:21. The page also indicates that PJ wants an intermission after reel 4 (there are 10 reels in all, but I imagine the exciting conclusion is just too exciting to interrupt with a break). This is terrific news for all of us who haven't been in bladder-training mode. (I was planning on opting for dehydration, myself.)

Serena!!! Congrats on your screen-capping of "Good Son." I can't wait for pics to be posted. *whining with anticipation, hoping there might be some good Froshadows in there* And once again I have to compliment you on your superior research skills. Thank you for finding that Michael Jackson quote. Yes, I'm sure that's the start of the thing. Thank heavens EW has a track record of movies dating back to when he was 8 (for crying out loud) to protect him against suspicions of plastic surgery. We'll let Michael have that honor. :rolleyes:

I am sorry to say that I'll likely be picking up a copy of Woman if I can find it, even though one of the Haremites (was it Ghyste?) called it "twee" :p It has some very cute pics in it (hmm, has Woman finally caught on to the secret demographic of Elijah appreciation that's over 13 years old?) Here's a cute pic now:

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/finhat.jpg

I was going to say how much older he looks to me these days (I've been thinking of doing an update on the facial lines -- you know, those lines), then you get EW in a monster hat and he looks 14 again. Still, I do think he's creeping toward a little older look -- only veeeerrrrry slowly ... :)

Here's one from the Neiman Marcus department store "LOTR windows" unveiling in Beverly Hills. They had advertised Dom as appearing with Sir Ian McKellen and Billy Boyd, but Elijah turned up as the 2nd hobbit instead. After they revealed the Bag End window (which contained a complete Frodo costume), Elijah quipped, "I hope that they have security for this - the Ring's in there!"

http://home.ricochet.com/mdes/limages/nm.jpg


Re: The Best Delivered Mundane Line in the History of Filmmaking: "Hello" is certainly right up there. Shivers! My personal favorite from TTT was, "I can't do this, Sam." The simple acknowledgement of his despair --- knowing that he will fail but going on anyway -- *sob!*

Wood, whose eyes are not CGI-enhanced...

from tgshaw: Remember right after FotR was released when a lot of people thought they were?
Many people still do, particularly if they're not "fans" and just watching the movie. (I just read in someone's LJ report about the TTT-EE where her friend simply did not believe that those eyes were real -- hmm, she ought to look at the finhat pic...) :p

zkgrumpy, again you made this puzzling remark about "Gratuitous nipple shots." I just can't imagine any such thing. Although he does look like an angel, I agree! :p
I'm now reduced to watching Kid-flicks.
Join the club! :D I'm being reduced to buying them -- that crack you just heard was my knees buckling. I can't stand it anymore -- must have more screencaps!!!

Goldie, please continue to tell us things we already know. I love it! Yes, every time I see Elijah's worried-to-nubs little nails I think of the enormous pressure he was under during this film -- yet he ongoingly handled it with grace and good spirits, and was a lift to the folks around him. He really did earn the respect we give him.

from whiteling
Thanks, Maeglian, for nominating H.-G. R. for the Academy Award for most clueless comment ever made in the whole history of film reviews! He had it coming to him ... I'd say, this guy wore two eye patches during the film.
I second the nomination, or third it! Lovely, ladies. Still laughing.

I'm avoiding the ROTK Soundtrack until I've seen the movie. However, perhaps I'd better get my copy while there are still Pieta versions available. I'll pick one up when I get my Woman and Total Film magazines. (Ah, the media glut. * wallow wallow wallow*)

I have not only suffered the indignity of buying a copy of Woman, but have also scanned the interview. Alas, it is fairly huge and I lack the technological skills to turn it into something readable online - but if someone with more net savvy than me wants to PM me their e-mail address, I'll happily send over what I've got.

Sorry, I could not resist...



http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/finhat.jpg http://www.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/Schwarzhaubenkakadu.jpg


Why, oh why - Elwood in geek mode always reminds me of birds :confused: ;) ???

Here are Ghyste's scans of this very interesting Elijah article. The magazine may be twee but Lij isn't.

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/lijwoman1.jpg


http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/lijwoman2.jpg

Thanks so much for posting the ‘Woman’ Elijah interview, Hobmom. I love his answer to that last question - Q: ‘Will you ever wear the Ring?’ A: ‘No! Because then I’d be invisible and Sauron would know where I was. And then he’d kill me!’
Mind you, I always suspect some of these magazine ‘interviews,’ and wonder if they’re not merely taking snippets of actual quotes from Elijah in various genuine interviews and pairing them up with questions to produce their own Q and A session. It’s very difficult to tell. I’ve seen Elijah’s remarks about Frodo having ‘touches of evil’ in ROTK before. Not too evil, I hope!

I have to say I’m getting the jitters over ROTK at the moment. It’s almost upon us now, and I’ve been reading the spoiler thread in the Trilogy forum where several people have aired their views about what changes PJ may or may not make for ROTK - and it makes me nervous just thinking about it. How many of the teasers we’ve been presented with in the trailers etc will actually be in the final cut of the theatrical version of the film? How many longed-for scenes will we have to wait until next November to see? One minute I think: ‘Trust PJ - from what he’s said about Frodo and Sam being the emotional heart of the story he surely will not let us down’ The next minute it’s: ‘Oh my God! What if he sacrifices Frodo’s story for the sake of more CGI’’s and battle-sequences?' I need a drink - of the alcoholic variety - to calm my nerves, and it's way too early in the day!

I popped into TORn just now and the latest news report there was from someone who had seen the film at a special preview. There were huge spoiler warnings - ‘spoilers don’t come any bigger than this.’ I clicked on ’more’ (As you see, I have positively NO willpower!) and was greeted with ‘Peter Jackson et al have asked us to remove this report.’ Oh well. Where’s that bottle?

Mariole - if I’m a Gif Princess (in my eyes Deluby will always be the Gif Queen - where ARE you, deluby?) you are undoubtedly the Comparison Queen. LOL at your Elijah/Andy comparisons. I have to agree with Shireling, I don’t really see a likeness, but your talent for matching angle and position shots is second-to-none.

Bunnie, it’s great that you like the gifs so much. I also love being able to just click and watch my favourite Frodo moments over and over again. I have made LOTS of them from ‘Fellowship’ - all very Frodo-centric, of course - and have recently started working on ‘TTT’ - it seems to take forever. So Bunnie, if you would like your own supply of Frodo gifs, please feel free to pm me, and I can pop everything I have done so far on a CD and send it to you.

Shireling - your hubby is a sweetheart, getting the soundtrack as a surprise for you. Bless! It is beautiful - I love Billy’s singing at the end of The Steward of Gondor. And I can’t wait to see Elijah and Sean on screen with The End Of All Things playing. And yes, Sean did grate on me after a while on the commentary track of the TT EE. He butted in several times on both Elijah and Andy and sort of overpowered them and took over. I do like Sean a lot, and I think it’s just his way - he’s enthusiastic about things he’s interested in, but to me on this audio track it just got a little annoying.

Oh well, that’s enough ranting from me, except to say - and Shireling, this concerns you - although you probably already know about it - to all Facultiers who reside in the UK - Elijah will be a guest on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. I checked the listings and it airs here on Thursday 4th December at 10pm on the Ftn channel. Set your VCR’s, ladies!

Bye.

I have copied most of the hobbit centric parts of those TORC spoilers... if anyone wants them I can post them in the ROTK spoilers thread.

Originally posted by Maeglian
I really don't like Sam's UN speech. <snip> It's a case of "tell, don't show", and it doesn't work for me at all.
Exactly… Cheese… pure cheese. Ack.

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
5. Kissing. Did you know that there's a kissing school where actors go to learn how to smooch on-screen?
They turned down my application as instructor. :( Life is just not fair!

Well, he learned a bit if “All I Want” is any indication. ;) And yes, I have not given up my position as assistant to the director of EW kissing analysis.


Ariel

Thanks for the info about Leno, Blossom - I knew Lij was going to be in it on the 3rd Dec. in the US but had no idea about how far behind we are - a day, a week, a year?! So, its only one day - that's certainly something to look forward to. I wonder if we'll be getting the ROTK special that the ABC channel are doing in the US - hope so.

I do agree with your remarks about the 'Woman' mag - sometimes you do get the feeling that they've been pinching bits from various interviews - but I so want to believe that he does crossword puzzles!! Its something I enjoy myself.

Whiteling, that pic of Lij next to the bird is brilliant!! I sometimes wonder with some of these photo shoots, particularly for fashion mags like the one he did in L'Huomo Vogue, just what he thinks about some of the things he's asked to wear or to do.

The pic Mariole posted from the Neiman Marcus thingy has got to be one of the best Lij pics ever - just stunning. Does anyone have any ideas about the glittery numbers on his jacket? (Sorry if this has already been discussed). Couldn't be his phone number could it? Could it?

ROTK SOUNDTRACK SPOILERS:


What got me sniffling the most was after all the heavily dramatic music that accompanies all those Mordor scenes and then the Cormallen part(which seems to have been blended into Pellenor Fields) the music switches back to the cheerful FOTR Shire-Hobbit theme and ...Waaaaah!!!!! I think that gets to me more than the gorgeously sad Grey Havens and Annie Lennox song.

Me too Hobmom, although 'Into the West' is gut-wrenchingly sad, I only have to hear the Hobbit theme, in whatever mood its played, to start sniffling. It still has this effect even when I play the FOTR soundtrack. Its just beautiful and so perfectly evokes images of the Shire, and Frodo and hobbits in their happier days:)

This has been making the rounds. Darned near choked on my turkey sandwich, I did. :)

I don't know who wrote it or I'd attribute it.


Excerpt from a screenplay for THE LORD OF THE RINGS by Dr. Seuss

(Scene: Bag End, after Bilbo's party)

GANDALF:
That Samwise-Sam! That Samwise-Sam!
I do not like that Samwise-Sam!

FRODO:
Would you like some bread and jam?

GANDALF:
I do not want your bread and jam.
I'm busy being mad at Sam.
He likes to sneak. He likes to spy.
I'll grind him up for hobbit pie!

FRODO:
Oh, do not grind him up for pie!
He is a pretty handy guy.
He mows my grass. He paints my gate.
He is my friend. We both are straight.

GANDALF:
Well, then, I will not grind up Sam!
Bring me bread, and bring me jam!
We'll talk about another thing.
Tell me, do you have the ring?

FRODO:


I have the ring. I have it here.
But, mercy me! Oh, dear! Oh, dear!
I fear the ring is very bad,
The golden ring that Bilbo had!
Tell me, will you take the ring?

GANDALF:
I will not take that evil thing!

FRODO:
Would you, could you, by the fire?
Would you, could you, in the Shire?

GANDALF:
I would not, could not, by the fire.
I would not, could not, in the Shire.

FRODO:
Would you, could you, in a tree?
Would you, on the road to Bree?
Would you, with an orc or troll?
Would you, in a hobbit-hole?

GANDALF:
I would not, could not, in a tree.
I would not, on the road to Bree.
I would not, with an orc or troll.
I would not, in a hobbit-hole.
I will not take it here or there,
I will not take it anywhere!
For it is bad. It's as you say.
You'll have to take that ring away
And throw it in the Cracks of Doom!

FRODO:
I'll need a friend. But who, or whom?

(Gandalf produces Sam, who has been spying)

SAM:
Oh, Master! Master! Sam is here!
He'll wash me down with beer, I fear!
I do not wish to be a pie!

GANDALF:
I will not eat you, little spy!
But I will send you far away.
You both will go away today.
You'll go to Bree. A man is there.
The man looks foul. The man feels fair.
He'll lead you both, if all goes well,
To meet the elves in Rivendell.

SAM:
Oh, Master! We will meet the elves!
We'll get to meet the elves ourselves
And hear them sing their elven songs!
We'll hear them bong their elven-gongs
And strum their elven loola-lutes!
They'll hoot their elven hooty-toots!

GANDALF:
I hope you'll hear those loola-lutes
And hear the hoots of hooty-toots!
But go with care. To be a pie
Is better than to meet the Eye!
The Eye is mean. The Eye is red.
He rules nine Riders. They are dead.
They'll try to make you dead, as well.
But will they catch you? Time will tell!

FRODO:
Oh, dear! Oh, dear! This is a mess!
We'll have to fix this mess, I guess.
So we will go, just Sam and me.
And what will happen? We will see!

-----

I watched the cast commentary and most of the third disk. I do not agree with the cast on the "Sam and Frodo wouldn't have been talking about stories" thing. It was battlefield humor. I don't see what else they could have done after what they'd just been through. Even Hobbits wouldn't explicity say "Oh, it's ok that you held a sword under my lowest chin. I forgive you." or "Hey, thanks for throwing me down the stairs to get away from the Fell Beast, man. A roll down the stone stairs is a piece of cake compared to that".

The extended scene with Merry and Pippen finding the marij - er - pipeweed reinforced that. They had to be absolutely giddy after that battle and they sounded like it.

I thought it was realistic enough, and served to end TTT on a slight upturn.

BTW, I came up with a new drinking game. Watch LotR and take a sip every time Frodo blinks. Result: You'll be stone cold sober at the end of the movie. :) I see partly how he uses his big blue eyes so effectively - he doesn't bink (BINK?!? Oy vey! I plead Turkey Toxicity! BLINK!) very often onscreen. That emphasized the times the he *did* blink - when Frodo was succumbing to the Ringwraiths' command to put on the ring.

zkgrumpy, who is still doing dishes from yesterday

zk,

I think that was written, back in the day, by the legendary Hama from TORC. I've got it saved on my hard drive somewhere. He's written some great parodies.

hugs

In "Flipper" did Elijah have to work out for the part of Sandy?

and did he have to work out on the set?

Possible TTT EE spoilers:

Just watched 'The Battle of Helms Deep is Over' on disk 4 and came upon an exceptional Frolijah moment - where Elijah (Frodo?), in hobit garb, is listening to PJ with a look of compassion and serious concern, and then reaches out and touches his director's arm with tender reassurance ... The real thing and so beautiful! Who needs a movie after that? Anyone else catch it?

Zkgrumpy - Thanks for the rollicking ballad. That's a rare one :p
But the drinking game you mentioned has already made the rounds, and I wouldn't try it myself as I'd be quite drunk. Frodo/Elijah blinked as often as anyone else last time I watched (this afternoon).

Hi, Naiad. Yes, I was just observing Elijah's nice gesture this afternoon. He's such a sweetheart! It reminded me of this quote. I'd posted it before, but since some folks are new here ... ;)

Peter Jackson had this to say about Elijah in this morning's interview on the KRON-4 Morning News in San Francisco:

Q: Who was your guiding light? Who propped you up on those days you were like, 'Jesus Christ, this is a mountain I'm climbing'?

PJ: Well, my partner Fran Walsh, who's one of the producers on the film, and co-wrote the script, she was wonderful. And the actors actually were incredibly supportive -- like Elijah, who was filming virtually every day for eighteen months, he was on camera a lot, and Elijah's just so bubbly and he's so optimistic and he's such a great guy, I never heard one negative word from Elijah the whole time. And often on the days that I'd turn up being being really tired, thinking, oh my god, am I going to be able to get through the day? the first person I'd see is Elijah, saying, 'Okay, Peter, great, let's go!' and he would immediately buoy you back up.

Like yer game, Zkgrumpy. *hic!* He haj sush beautaful eyesssshhh...

Okay, I have officially joined the ranks of the insane. (Stop snickering, those of you who've known me to be in these ranks for quite some time... :) ) I have just ordered the following on DVD, so they'll be cappable!!! Yes! *pumps fist in the air*: Bumblebee, Faculty, Forever Young, Ice Storm, Huck Finn, War, and Deep Impact. I am so nuts!!! I also ordered the Good Son; it was only available on VHS, but I could buy it for a buck so I did. I think this is how I'm dealing with my ROTK anxiety. (((Blossom))) I have to find a good hiding place for these, or my sisters will give me even more sh** than they do already. Sigh.

Google found "Green Eggs and Sam" :p here: http://www.tolkienonline.com/docs/4511.html
I know there was a whole funny thread full of some terrific plays on various poems and literature, but I lost the bookmark in my disk crash. :( Help, whichever kind Faculty member provided the link the first time! There was some excellent work on that thread!

Re Sean Astin's "enthusiasm" on the commentary track: One of the LJ's called him "little bossy boots." :p Poor Sean! I think he does better not in a group situation. A friend of mine was fortunate enough to see him (and get photo'd with him, plus get his autograph) at Generations United. She said he came across as extremely articulate and intelligent. Maybe we can rub some nice soothing lavendar oil on his temples before the next commentary DVD comes out...

I am preparing to do a magazine shopping glut tomorrow (thanks for the Woman article scan, Hobmom!). I'm not sure how much of these articles I can read. I will have to buy them for the pretty pictures or length of article, and read them after ROTK comes out. The reviews are beginning, so I'm having to pull out before I stumble across something I really don't want to know. So my increased spoiler avoidance starts ... now!

For those avoiding spoilers, do not read the following article:
bad article - bad article - avert eyes:
Media Watch: Spin Magazine Talks Hobbits & Gollum
http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1176

It gives away every single spoiler for every single story line in the book -- including the big one. You know, that one. In big type, on both pages. Avoid this article at all costs! (It has some cute verbiage among the other 3 hobbits, but it spoils big time.)

I'm also going to avoid this one:
Maxim Magazine: 10 Reasons You'd Be a Complete Freakin' Idiot to Miss THE RETURN OF THE KING.
bad article - mean people:
http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1173

In an attempt to be humorous and supportive of Sam, they were snarky (I mean, really mean!) about Frodo. They have committed an unforgivable sin in this fan's eyes, and their magazine will be shunned and unbought by this rabid consumer. Go me! (Or more to the point, Go Frodo!)