Khazad-Dum - The Faculty Lounge: An Elijah Wood Discussion

Ariel

02-20-2003, 09:38 PM

Anybody miss me?

Ah well I miss you guys when I dont get a chance to post. I have been busy with RL etc Nowhere near as fun as this stuff.

Thanks to all who gave their reviews of Ash Wednesday. Would you say that it was more worth seeing or less worth seeing than Black and White (which to my mind ranks up there with the worlds most obvious waste of talent and celluloid)?

Nostril acting? LOL! Only in the faculty!!! Though I say it as perhaps shouldnt, you think? I have noted on numerous occasions that EW is one of the few people I can think of who looks good even when you are looking up his nose! I mean, THINK of all the scenes where we are exposed to that angle? (wrote angel TWICE! Thanks erendis!) Nearly every angsty shot is from that angle! (So, naturally, I would notice these things :o)

OH MAEGLIAN!!!! That is undoubtedly the most hysterical thing I have ever read in here!! Its PERFECT!!! LOL!

I think I swing between D & E with occasional forays into A.

Tathar heres another welcome it sounds like you will fit right in!

Oh, YES, I remember that MJ article! That was too funny thank you,erendis, for finding it (I have it somewhere. Buried amongst a sea of screencaps!). I saw a picture of him (MJ) the other day, and I have to wonder if perhaps there isnt some truth to that parody although EW looks far more human. :o

SHERYL!!!!!! THERE YOU ARE!!! I hope we get to see a little more of you in the faculty soon! Youve been very missed!

Just as an aside to this nostril acting thing which, to be brutally honest, I feel is just all part of EWs whole package of talent. I VERY much doubt he does any of this stuff consciously I mean, who could think of all this stuff at the same time? I think he just imagines the emotion he is trying to emote and does it. Its acting hes just better at it than most other people.

I would have made this into a gif but images are easier and don't hog up the bandwidth, or so I am told.

These images are in sequence and are only 9 frames apart from first to last. I was watching the part of his face that in this sequence best communicates the emotion he is trying to convey, and it is, in fact, his nose. Watch how the shadow deepens prior to his looking up.

http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/noses01.jpg
http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/noses02.jpg
http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/noses03.jpg
http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/noses04.jpg
http://www.frodosharem.org/Pics/noses05.jpg

Geez... Just when I think I can't get any geekier.... :rolleyes:

Ariel

ainon

02-20-2003, 10:20 PM

2000+ posts again!!!!

Erendis - that article made me literally LOL here in the lab! I love that Alan Lee sketch. Now I remember something I'd wanted to share with you guys, a quote by John Howe in one of the magazines, about how whenever he wants to sketch Frodo now it'll inevitably be a sketch of Elijah's Frodo because of how wonderfully Elijah had become the character. Howe's unable to imagine any other Frodo now. Something like that. It was a marvelous compliment.

Well, taking advantage of the faster connection here and the fact that everyone else is out of the lab, let's look at those pre-TTT Frodo pics that we'd tried to figure out. See how we scored.

all pics from http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/elijahpicture/index.html

We were guessing that this one was from the moment where Faramir's men first captures F&S, but now I'm thinking this takes place during the journey to Osgiliath. Sam has all his stuff back, and their hands are untied, *and* when they were first captured I think Frodo would opt to keep quiet rather than try anything drastic. Which seems to be what he's doing here.

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt04/ttt031.jpg

Okay, we know where this one belongs now, though we didn't see it.

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt05/ttt045.jpg

And we now have these in context:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt01/ttt004.jpg
http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt06/ttt059.jpg
http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt06/ttt058.jpg

This would be the flow of things in HA if the scene didn't cut to the alternative F&S sitting positions:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt03/ttt027.jpg

Didn't get to see this one:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt06/ttt051.jpg

Or this, unless we count Maeg's avatar. ;)

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt06/ttt052.jpg

And to get back on-topic:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/behind05/behind046.jpg

:D And now it looks like I've run out of excuses to avoid work. Drat.

------- oh, Ariel's posted while I was previewing. {{{{Ariel}}}} Well, you should get geekier more often! Quick answer to that 'Ash Wednesday' question: *nothing* can beat 'Black & White' in the 'worlds most obvious waste of talent and celluloid' category. I guess the real test is: can I rewatch EW's parts in 'Ash Wednesday' if I want to? Yes, I can. And I did. <g>

I absolutely agree with Ariel here: "... on numerous occasions that EW is one of the few people I can think of who looks good even when you are looking up his nose!" That was my precise thought when that TTT trailer first came out and the scene had to be replayed over and over and over again. For overall study. Not just to look up his nose.

But now to study Ariel's nose presentation ...

BunnieBugs

02-20-2003, 10:22 PM

Ariel -- geek away! I have been dying to see that sequence in frame-by-frame (or something close to it), and this so fits the bill! Good golly, I love that sneer at the end! And that's before he really flips out (I have some screen caps of that, too. Pretty amazing stuff!). Thanks for those caps!

EDIT: Ainon, I think that second to last cap is rotated 90 degrees to the left. I'm pretty sure that he's actually lying down in that shot, though we didn't see that particular one in the film.

And that first one... perhaps an alternate view of, "The Ring will not save Gondor. It has only the power to destroy."?

tgshaw

02-21-2003, 08:51 AM

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
EDIT: Ainon, I think that second to last cap is rotated 90 degrees to the left. I'm pretty sure that he's actually lying down in that shot, though we didn't see that particular one in the film.

For comparison's sake, here's the version from the "For Your Consideration" ad, rotated 90%:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/twotowersfrodo-crop.jpg

And did anyone ever figure out where this one's from, or who "Frodo's Benefactor" is?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/TTT/benefactor.jpg

Ariel--Hi, and thanks for the frame-by-frame! Your "brutally honest" statement about EW's nostril acting is simply the microexpression theory--that the gradual expression changes EW has when he's acting can't be consciously controlled (that's the theory of the scientist who investigates the things--he uses them for lie detection), so they "happen" when Elijah puts himself into the character's emotion. This was happening already when he was 10 years old, in Huck Finn, so I doubt if it's consciously "learned behavior"; my DVD buying plan had The War up next, but I may have to switch it to Avalon so I can scout for microexpressions in his earliest role with a good director. IMVHO, the director makes a big difference--maybe it helps to have one who can give Elijah a clear enough idea of the emotion involved without stifling how he expresses it?

(Still waiting for The Ice Storm and Ash Wednesday DVDs to arrive, BTW. Now that should be a director contrast. From both the movie and what Elijah said in interviews about the process of making it, it seems as if Ang Lee was a great director for him. From what I've heard, it doesn't sound like Burns quite measures up; one reviewer said he should stick to the writing and give the directing job to someone else.)

And one more connection for the "nostril shape" discussion--I think it all goes back to that "adorably pointy nose" that's listed as one of EW's assets in the "legal brief." IMHO, the elegant, eloquent, slim nostrils go with the adorably pointy nose, which wouldn't have room for your average "round, fat" nostrils. ;) :)

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And on a comment ainon made way back yesterday morning sometime--yes, that night would be hard to forget. I think I got about two hours of sleep before I stumbled in to work (and then went back online at the office). Actually, it's immortalized in the "Huddled Masses" (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id114.htm) essay on my website, but until now you and I were probably the only people who knew what was being referred to :) . I was thinking about it, too, because of how much this thread has changed! For those who weren't around at the time, the reason I was up most of the night was that we were playing a real-time game involving Elijah's pre-LotR movies. I'd post a pic from one, and when someone would connect the pic with the correct movie, I'd post another one. I don't think that game would work now--It'd just be too easy for everyone :cool: !! Geesh--seems like that was years ago, but it couldn't have been, because the very first post in the very first incarnation of this thread was on December 20 or 21, 2001. Does that seem possible? :k to all Faculty members and visitors.

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Oh, I was going to say to Tathar: Filmography students in Georgia are criticizing Elijah's accent :rolleyes: ? They should talk to the Brits who post here who pretty much say that--except for a couple of slips in FotR--it's "spot on." [An OT comment out of sheer admiration: Robbie Coltrane does an incredibly good job with the accent in Huck Finn. The first time I heard him talk in his "real voice," I was shocked! From the movie, I'd gotten no hint that he wasn't American.]

peaceweaver

02-21-2003, 09:28 AM

Many many thanks for those pictures, ainon and tg. I wonder how many of them will turn up on the Extended version of TTT?

Hiya, Ariel and sheryl!! Nice to see you both!

Re: Michael Jackson's face (like I care :rolleyes: ): He began the process of transforming his features while Elwood still growing into his. The comparison members of the Faculty have made in the past between EW's features and those of Donatello's Bronze David in Florence make me wonder if *that* was Jackson's model. The difference would be that Elwood's "classical" features are natural and Jackson's are, well, NOT!!

And my apologies to those who got their hopes up for "Bumblebee" on tv this week. Further research finds that it is *not* on Bravo. Sigh...can't rely on the internet.

p.s.: Many :k to Moggy for restoring my old name. Given present world circumstances, I felt the need to reclaim it.

Maeglian

02-21-2003, 09:58 AM

Congratulations on getting your name back! I have always liked Peaceweaver very much, exspecially after you explained the original meaning. :)

Tg, I certainly remember that posting marathon and Elwood movie festival back when the thread reached its first 2000 posts. It was great fun, even for us back-benchers who could only participate away from work.....

I had various things to say in relation to ainon's post, - but I'll have to revert later on. I really have no time, I'm not even here! :eek:

Eldalieva

02-21-2003, 10:17 AM

Now this is utterly off-topic, but TG's mention of Robbie Coltrane's accent made me remember hearing somewhere, once, that the accent we Americans consider classically Southern is one of the few American accents that can be called a true descendant of the accent of the 18th century English gentry. That may account for why so many English actors seem to adapt quite effortlessly to a Southern accent (I'm thinking of Vivien Leigh and Leslie Howard, here too).

Of course there's NO accounting for how a kid from Cedar Rapids by way of Santa Monica can produce not only a near-perfect English accent, but one that's so very nice, almost musical, to hear! :D

Bridget Chubb

02-21-2003, 11:06 AM

Originally posted by tgshaw
For those who weren't around at the time, the reason I was up most of the night was that we were playing a real-time game involving Elijah's pre-LotR movies. I'd post a pic from one, and when someone would connect the pic with the correct movie, I'd post another one. I don't think that game would work now--It'd just be too easy for everyone :cool: !! Geesh--seems like that was years ago, but it couldn't have been, because the very first post in the very first incarnation of this thread was on December 20 or 21, 2001. Does that seem possible?

I remember that! I couldn't play, of course, since I hadn't seen any of EW's pre-LOTR movies. But I remember dropping by for your 2000-post party. Wasn't that around the time when y'all decided to become "The Faculty" rather than "the EW non-swoony thread"?

That would have been late March at the very earliest, because I was already a Goonie (well, SGAS member), by then, and had been for a while, and my first post in the SGAS thread was on March 11th last year.

Originally posted by shilohmm
And I'm trying to figure out what it means that Bridget is here more when I'm not than when I was...

It's simple, really - now that you're not keeping me up to date on all the Faculty gossip, I have to get it direct from the source.;) :D

Pearl

02-21-2003, 11:27 AM

Off-topic
Originally posted by Eldalieva
Now this is utterly off-topic, but TG's mention of Robbie Coltrane's accent made me remember hearing somewhere, once, that the accent we Americans consider classically Southern is one of the few American accents that can be called a true descendant of the accent of the 18th century English gentry.).

Oh, that's interesting. :) It fascinates me how accents evolve ... how DO they evolve? :confused: No doubt Professor Tolkien could have told us how! :)

On-topic
Elijah does have a near-perfect English accent as Frodo, and I will trout anyone who suggests otherwise. :mad: No, not anyone HERE. :) He does have a light musical voice ... very, very pleasing to listen to. :) I like his normal voice too, but as Frodo he sounds ... well, just lovely.

Ariel, 'Black and White' has to be one of the very worst films I have ever seen in my entire life! I only watched it for that bit in the closing credits when Elijah is snogging Brooke Shields. And oh boy is he EVER snogging her. :p

tgshaw

02-21-2003, 01:49 PM

Peaceweaver, so glad to have you back under your proper name! :) :) Somehow you just never seemed like an S-B!

Originally posted by Pearl
Oh, that's interesting. :) It fascinates me how accents evolve ... how DO they evolve? :confused: No doubt Professor Tolkien could have told us how! :)

Off topic, I suppose, except that at the moment I'm interested in anything regarding Huck Finn--

I've never heard it connected to actors, but when I was studying music appreciation in college (the class science majors take to fulfill their "fine arts" requirement ;) ), we learned that true Southern folk music is a direct descendant of English folk music. Many of the songs are almost identical, with some of the words changed to fit the "new surroundings" (it's been over 25 years, so I'm afraid I can't give examples :rolleyes: , but I remember listening to them and it was really true). Historically, I think it has something to do with the relative isolation and lack of later immigrants when compared to the North, which became more of a "melting pot" while the South remained closer to its English roots. It seems natural that the same thing would apply to accents.

This topic reminds me of something I said yesterday in a post the office computer ate--it was in response to the question of what Tolkien might have thought of Twain's writing. IMHO, he'd probably join CSL in not liking the broad humor/parody of A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. But I think he might have liked The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn a bit more (as far as I know there's no evidence that he ever read it, but if he had...). IMHO, Huck Finn is much closer to what Tolkien was trying to do in that any "message" or "meaning" is woven into the story and the characters, rather than added on from outside.

And what the accent discussion reminded me of is how careful Twain was with his dialects in writing Huck Finn; someone in northern Missouri speaks slightly differently from someone in Southern Missouri, for example. Maybe not too noticeable to an outsider (like some of the variations in speech Tolkien gives his characters), but done very purposefully. (IIRC, he even wrote the equivalent of Tolkien's statement noting the differences lest readers "think all the characters are trying to speak the same but failing"--but I'd have to look that up.) Most authors who try to write in dialects fail miserably, but Twain seems to have had a true ear for them. Of course, he didn't invent languages as Tolkien did, but I think they may be having an interesting conversation about it :) .

And, to bring this a bit back on topic, I think the Huck Finn movie keeps some of that idea, although not to the same extent as the book (gee, where have we heard that before ;) ?) The Grangerfords, in particular, seem to have a more "Southern" accent than Huck's/Elijah's Missouri accent, which is also true in the book due to the fact that they (gee!) live farther South :p ! In the period Huck Finn is set, the Mississippi was the only "highway" in that entire area of America, so the settlements that grew up along it were isolated except for whatever traffic traveled the river, so different accents did evolve. Which kind of brings this post full circle...

-------

Edit: But here's an example of a good Missouri accent ;) :
"...the time when y'all decided..."
(Watch out, Bridget--those Chicago accents are catching! :p !)

Maeglian

02-21-2003, 05:23 PM

You'll forgive a poor foreigner if she doesn't get into a discussion of US dialects. Fascinating topic, though. :)
Instead I'm wondering, wouldn't it be a good acting challenge for EJW with a role requiring him to speak in a foreign language? Well, he does speak a tiny bit of French in Huck Finn, but......... that's not quite it.He does have a light musical voice ... very, very pleasing to listen to. (snip) ...as Frodo he sounds ... well, just lovely.You are *so* right, Pearl. Now imagine, him speaking French in that Frodo voice. I could listen to that. For a long time..... Or one of the Elvish languages, of course. So many of the other actors had to do that, why not him, too? We missed out, there. Or; as a challenge, one of the Scandinavian languages. Some appropriate passages from LotR, or a poem.......... still using that soft, melodious Frodo voice. Come on, Elijah, that *would* stretch your voice acting muscles! Do tell me if you need help to find the right poem, or require advise about pronounciation!

Ahem. I get carried away. :o I still think it would be great though. French. Oh, yes, definitely. :cool: :)

On to ainon's pictures!
Especially the Faramir related ones. I wonder if they filmed various mood versions of the Frodo/Faramir scenes and only decided later on which ones to use? Somehow I can't seem to fit it all together.

Now, there are various scenes filmed that didn't make it into the movie, but which would fit a longer version of what we've seen. That would for instance relate to Faramir's comments on the dead Southron, or Frodo struggling (?) with the Ring up on the moors while Faramir looks on sympathetically, or the Angelic Osgiliath scene, or the escape through the sewers, or them reappering from those sewers. (I think the Benefactor picture could be such a scene, but have no clue who the benefactor is. Faramir??)

And evidently, various scenes were turned up-side down and inside-out in the editing process, since there are several really obvious continuity errors. The blankets-turned-into-barrels is the most obvious one, but there's another one when Frodo and Sam are captured. Frodo's on the ground; the camera leaves him for a short moment, Faramir says "bind their hands", camera returns to Frodo, now held securely by one of the rangers. And personally I also think of the "Now we understand each other...." as some sort of continuity error, because something simply *must* be missing there. Also I think Rikka was right when she said that the "Put on the Ring and escape" scene timeline-wise originally was intended for after Faramir has learned about the Ring and decided to bring it to Gondor. It seems much more logical that Sam'd consider such a drastic measure, and Frodo be so downcast and weary, after that very tense scene with Faramir and the Ring trance.

But I can't seem to fit the feisty Fro pictures into any of this. In all the Faramir scenes Frodo seems wary, anxious, desperate, weary and sad..... those spitting mad scenes just don't fit in somehow. That's why I wonder, like Bunnie also suggested, whether they might have filmed some alternate capture scenes, or partly another trek to Osgiliath, where the mood was more overtly angry and antagonistic.

It's all the scenes with Faramir I *really* expect the Extended version of TTT to change, and to improve, and to, well; - extend. :rolleyes: It must have been quite a lottery for the actors too, knowing all the stuff they filmed, and getting to see what actually made it into the film, and it what order! I don't think I've seen them comment much on this in interviews or promotional apperances, though, except for Elijah (or was it Sean?) saying that they filmed a much longer and more violent fight between the two of them in Osgiliath, compared to what made it into the film.

Bridget Chubb

02-21-2003, 06:45 PM

Actually, the "y'all" isn't a St. Louis accent - that's my mom's Texas accent breaking through.:p :D

(And I know the Chicago accent is contagious - I keep saying "pop" instead of "soda," it's awful.:o ;) )

Twain does have a disclaimer on the different dialects he uses in Huck Finn - I found it online here. (http://www.4literature.net/Mark_Twain/Adventures_of_Huckleberry_Finn/)

EXPLANATORY -

In this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro dialect; the extremest form of the backwoods South-Western dialect; the ordinary "Pike-County" dialect; and four modified varieties of this last. The shadings have not been done in a hap-hazard fashion, or by guess-work; but painstakingly, and with the trustworthy guidance and support of personal familiarity with these several forms of speech.

I make this explanation for the reason that without it many readers would suppose that all these characters were trying to talk alike and not succeeding.

- The Author

There was a parody of the beginning of Huck Finn, including this "disclaimer," posted at CoE a while back - I had part of it in my sig for a while.:) You can find it here (http://www.council-of-elrond.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=1564), right after the Ernest Hemingway one.:)

Maeglian, I agree, Elijah speaking French would be awesome. What would really be cool is if he could do an unabridged audio recording of LOTR in French...:cool:

Eldalieva

02-21-2003, 07:24 PM

While Elijah might sound lovely speaking French, as he sounds lovely speaking most things, I am still holding out hope that we might, MIGHT get to hear him speak some Elvish in Cirith Ungol. Then again, since PJ has never developed Frodo's knowledge of Elves and the Elvish languages, it might be confusing to an audience to have him suddenly "speaking in tongues" in the middle of Mordor.

More off topicness: I've often heard people mention how nice it is to hear/read LoTR in other languages...there was just some German tranlsation going on in the Harem the other day. I have to admit it IS fun to read Tolkien in another language, but nothing, NOTHING can top Tolkien's fluidity with the English language. And why on earth is "Frodo" in French "Frodon?" That sounds like something you put in your air conditioner!! I mean...you're not supposed to translate a proper name, for heaven's sake! If Elijah Wood goes to Paris, he's not automatically Elijah Bois is he???

Ariel

02-21-2003, 07:55 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
I don't think I've seen them comment much on this in interviews or promotional apperances, though, except for Elijah (or was it Sean?) saying that they filmed a much longer and more violent fight between the two of them in Osgiliath, compared to what made it into the film.

Actually they BOTH commented on that in two different interviews. I do think they saw the continuity problems and probably noticed how strangely that scene flowed in comparison to the rest of the film (IMHO, naturally :rolleyes: ) and so made special mention of it.

Originally posted by tgshaw
Historically, I think it has something to do with the relative isolation and lack of later immigrants when compared to the North, which became more of a "melting pot" while the South remained closer to its English roots.

Initially, the south was much more open to trade with the British than the north was. The British needed the cotton and tobacco that were produced in the southern states far more than it needed the industrial products the north manufactured because Britain was an industrial producer itself - and may have looked distainfully upon the north as being made up of the colonies that defied it as well as as a competative market. Either way, the British were much happier doing business with the southern states. The trade routes and partnerships built up prior to the civil war were a definite driving force in establishing the culture, customs and language of the American south.

So ends Ariel's lecture. :) (having been raised by a yankee father and a southern belle mother, my youth was WELL steeped in the reasons, purposes and motivations for the 'war of northern agression' as my mother would teasingly call it. I also do a mean southern accent - even though I haven't spoken normally with one since my family moved north.)

Ariel

deluby

02-22-2003, 12:59 AM

Hello all! Been absent for a week, RL sucks! http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/grumpy.gif
Anyway, trying to catch up here.

Woohoo! 2000+ posts again! http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/drink.gif

And have these been posted?

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/frodo193.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/frodo194.jpg

--
Narya: Good luck with RL. :)

--
Starlight: I don't know if you still need help with downloading streaming video since you said it was urgent and that was 4 days ago. :o PM me you do, I can give it a try. :)

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Great Huck Finn caps again, Tg! And thanks for those pics too Ainon!
:k

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The Gollum-Frodo comparison:
The scene where Smeagol says:"What did you call me?" and his eyes turns crystal blue. Frodo and Smeagol facing each other and looking into each other's eyes. That's where the similarity struck me.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/PDVD_011.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/PDVD_013.jpg

Edit: Take a look at Frodo's eyes in the first pic I posted and then Smeagol's eyes above, do you think the animators based Smeagol's eyes on Frodo's?

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Maeglian: :D at your Reaction categorization!

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Elijah speaking Elvish: Well he did say the "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" line during one of TV appearence promo for FOTR, but he didn't use Frodo voice though. He said he had few lines in Elvish but they were all cut out of the final film. I think the interview was either Jay Leno or Letterman. I can't remember, have to check my VHS tape. http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/think.gif

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I appologize for all those very short replies, I still have to go back and re-read posts.
And I think tricksy computer is threatening to crash. :mad: :rolleyes: Better keep it short before I lose it and go http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/hammercomputer.gif.

Maeglian

02-22-2003, 06:36 AM

Deluby, I don't think I'd seen the upper one of the two posters before. I love all the blue tones they use in so many Frodo pics. And sure they modelled Gollums eyes on EJW's, the evidence is right there, isn't it?

I had another look at the "Feisty Fro" pic. I think there are stone walls in the background - this must really be an alternate take on Osgiliath; - one where Frodo was *not* in a continuous Ring Trance but all the more angry about being dragged towards Gondor. And the Ring is not around his neck in that pic. We'll probably never know what PJ was planning there; - this seems too much of a departure from the story we got, to ever see it back in the extended version.

[off topic]
Elda, maybe the French translation changed Frodo to Frodon so the pronounciation of the name would be softer and more similar to the English one? Without the "n" the name would sound quite harsh in French, I think. (Not that my French ever impressed anyone.... ) But then again I'm used to translations and their various more or less successful efforts to capture either the meaning behind the name or the pronounciation of it. In Norwegian the main characters (except Merry) have been allowed to keep their original first names, more or less, but the Family names of Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin have been translated to Lommelun, Gamgod, Brennibukk and Tok respectively. I prefer the English originals, of course.
[/off topic]

Looking at that poster of Deluby's with Frodo's face as he's attacking Sam..... have anyone else thought that this is the one scene where Elijah possibly *did* get a bit of help from the post-production special effects department? It does seem to me that the pupils of his eyes are unusually small there in the beginning of that scene from that particular camera angle: Somehow I doubt that even he can control that particular aspect of his look to such an extent. Comparing this to the carefully executed and very deliberate difference between the very small pupils of Gollum's eyes and the obviously larger ones when the Smeagol personality is in charge, well, I just wonder..... (Now that the nostril research is done, perhaps we could have a closer look at pupils? :D )
It doesn't make EJW's acting *any* less awesome and fantastic, if so. It sure is a very creepy and scary look there, when Frodo is "not at home" as ainon previously put it.

I wonder whether Blossom is still looking in on us now and then? If so, I hope all is well!

Maeglian wanders off in a daze, imagining Frodo saying "Elen síla lúmenn' omentielvo" in that soft melodious voice............. :o

Elvellon

02-22-2003, 07:10 AM

Just wondering if you guys had seen that Elijah will be playing HOCKEY, of all things, tomorrow in New York. It's a charity event that includes some other actors, microsoft employees, and some NHL alumni. :eek: Hopefully they will pad him well and be conscientious with their sticks and pucks (I actually think he's tougher than he looks, and am sure he'll be fine). Here's a link:

http://www.mshockeychallenge.com/SCHEDULES-NewYork.ASP

I am quite impressed that he can skate well enough to play with these big guys!

Peaceweaver, good to see your name back. :)

love to all! :k

ainon

02-22-2003, 07:52 AM

{{{{{Peaceweaver}}}}} glad to see you back. :)

{{{{deluby}}}} :k Lovely, lovely pics! Thank you! Hope RL will be kinder to you soon. And yes, deluby, it was the Jay Leno interview that had EW speaking in Elvish. IIRC he explained that the line was cut out.

Learning some cool stuff about accents here. I can detect the differences from having watched enough TV, but of course I can never tell what's right or wrong. As for translations - we're spared that here. ;) Downside of that I suppose is that these books and stories don't get to win a larger audience and we have to put up with atrocious subtitles instead.

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Originally posted by Maeglian
It does seem to me that the pupils of his eyes are unusually small there in the beginning of that scene from that particular camera angle:

We'll have to wait for the experts to tell us, but I imagine there's a pretty good light source there - you can see his 'eye-lights' - which caused his pupils to constrict.

As for whether Gollum's eyes are based on EW's -- no one from the Gollum team has actually ever come out and said so. Anything in that Cinefex magazine?

-----------

The barrels scene worked well for me but I'll spare you guys the stuff I'd said before. :p But you can't stop the geek in me anyway. I love discussing this sort of stuff. :D A new thought did occur to me, that another reason justifying that scene's position where it is now, for me, is that after Faramir has found out about the Ring, there's really no point to even suggest that Frodo should try using it to escape.

Something I found privately amusing about this actually is that I spotted the editing glitch during first viewing, and had to wait quite a bit for other folks to catch it too so that we could all discuss it. ;) So you know, they did almost get away with it. :D The editor did a pretty good job with what he had, IMO - close-ups on Frodo and Sam during the barrel scene, then the POV is on Sam when he looks up at Faramir & co coming into the room, then the smooth switch to a wide shot of Frodo and Sam scrambling to their feet. There's still that feeling that something's not quite right and of course once you realise what it is it risks snapping you right out of the story. But they did do their best by heightening the tension there, so I guess they hoped that the audience wouldn't immediately realise the abrupt change in environment if the audience remains focused on the characters. Very, very risky, of course, and certainly not something that stands up to repeat viewings or close scrutiny, and I'm really looking forward to hearing PJ & co explain why they had to resort to doing this.

Same goes with flipped scenes. I've figured out all but one scene, but I don't know if anyone would want to play guess-why at those, because I know that can ruin repeated viewings if the 'secret' is out. Anyway, PJ had already spoken up about the problems inherent with flipping scenes during the FotR commentary, so TTT is clearly a showcase of how that does become a necessary editing 'rescue' when footage from simultaneous shoots at various soundstages and locations don't ultimately match up.

The Feisty Frodo needn't necessarily be an alternative scene. By the time Frodo says, "The Ring will not save Gondor" a whole heap of things could have happened, including perhaps an earlier attempt (unfortunately made redundant from the quick-pace storyline sense because Frodo mentions it again here) to convince Faramir that he's about to make an awful mistake. That Frodo should be so desperate when he says "The Ring will not save Gondor" gives me feeling that he knows he's on the losing end when it comes to trying to convince Faramir, and I think it also has a lot to do with how close they're coming to Osgiliath. I'm also wondering if Frodo's plea to let him go has to do with a strong premonition that things are going to go to heck in a very bad way for everyone if he's dragged there. He never says 'let *us* go'. 'Let *me* go' seems to imply that Frodo's hoping whatever that bad is, it'll go with him and leave everyone else alone.

:k Elve. I take it this is ice hockey, and not hockey hockey?

<waves to Blossom>

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt02/ttt013.jpg :)

edit:

I'd been hoping for a long time that someone would screencap this. :D

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1644547.jpg

2nd edit in reference to Goldie's post below. She's talking about the adorable Frodo/Frolijah above. Not the bloody Frodo/Frolijah I just posted. ;)

Goldenberry

02-22-2003, 08:11 AM

It's like finding buried treasure to see posters and photos I've never seen before in this thread! The long-lost, almost-forgotten pics from way back when give me a similar feeling of delight. Someday I would love to see all of the various ways that PJ filmed each scene...for research purposes, of course. :D

ainon, that last pic you posted above reminds me very much of peaceweaver's avatar. So much so that I think 'there's Elijah in his Frodo costume' whenever I see it. Lij or Frolijah, it's still a lovely picture.:)

And speaking of peaceweaver --- it's wonderful to have you be *you* again. I agree, that particular screen name is especially meaningful in these troubled and mad times.:k

Tathar

02-22-2003, 09:28 AM

Elijah spoke Elvish on the Jay Leno interview?? Which one, this year's or last year's? I haven't been able to download the one from this last December and I've heard that it's a good one. Anyone know where I can get it?

Isn't that interesting that Elijah will be playing in a hockey game tomorrow? Very sweet of him, too! ;)

Something else I've been thinking about...in the commentary on the FotR SE DVD, PJ, Fran and Phillipa were talking about the "leaving" scene at Amon Hen, and they said they had actually filmed (I think) an alternate scene where an Uruk Hai finds Frodo there and Frodo gets to fight it. Disappointing that it didn't make it into the final cut (though of course I do love that scene anyway!)...I wonder if PJ will ever show it. Has anyone heard any more about it?

BunnieBugs

02-22-2003, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Tathar
Disappointing that it didn't make it into the final cut (though of course I do love that scene anyway!)...I wonder if PJ will ever show it. Has anyone heard any more about it? Interesting that you were disappointed that it was left out. My reaction was pretty much a polar opposite! I was horrified the first time I heard that it was ever even considered for that scene. :eek:

Not that I wouldn't have liked to see Frodo stand up and fight more than he got to -- heavens, yes! -- but not there. I still get a stomach-ache just thinking about it. :p I guess they were worried about the scene being anti-climactic, or something. But to me that scene was beautiful and perfect. Well, it is Frodo crying, after all. Never a bad thing to look at.

And am I weird because I can totally hear Frolijah saying those lovely Elvish words in his lovely Frodo voice in my head when I try really hard? Okay, just ignore me... :rolleyes: :D

Flourish

02-22-2003, 12:27 PM

Lovely pix everyone, and thanks for posting them!

A few quick things--

It's ice hockey, and I live close enough to go, but I'm not (don't trout me! I've got loads of other stuff to do and no interest in hockey, sorry!).

The only thing I ever heard about Gollum's resemblance to anybody real was that after they saw what a great job Andy Serkis was doing, they went back and made Gollum's features look more like HIS. TORn ran a short article about it and a huge picture before the film came out and I remember thinking that Andy's mother mightn't be too happy by this turn of events, though clearly everyone else was.:p

The proposed scene of Frodo fighting off the Uruk-hai caused everyone I know to go into an absolute fit. It would have been disastrous to the film and to the wonderful scene as Tolkien wrote it, which really can't be improved upon. (Character development over action, yay!) One friend, a die-hard Tolkien and Jackson fan, said that even knowing the filmmakers had *contemplated* such a scene was enough to shake his confidence in the rest of the enterprise! But I don't think they actually got as far as filming it before they realized it was unworkable. Thank goodness!

And I do remember Elijah Wood saying in some interview or other that he had learned to speak some Elvish, but I didn't know that ALL his Elvish lines had been cut--so none even in ROTK, then!:( That's really too bad.

Narya Celebrian

02-22-2003, 12:46 PM

IIRC, the Frodo-fleeing-Uruk-Hai scene as proposed for the end of the first movie was entirely the studio's idea - they did not feel PJ's proposed ending, with Frodo silently making his decision at the shore, was 'dramatic' enough. They thought the Uruk-Hai should be chasing Frodo across the river, or some such nonsense. I don't remember exactly where I read it (or heard it), but I know it was in more than one place, that ALL those involved in the movie fought the 'Frodo fighting the Uruk-Hai' ending from the outset - they all stood by their ending as being 'right.' And no other ending was ever filmed.

Back on topic, when browsing Amazon.ca the other day, they indicated a couple of EW's movies that had only previously been available on video had 'release dates' for DVD. Not for The Good Son yet, unfortunately for me :( , but it raises my hopes. Perhaps it is coincidence that they're being released on DVD now, and it's just part of the cycle of older movies being put on DVD, but I like to think it is due to rising interest in EW and his talent.

Tathar

02-22-2003, 01:41 PM

Well, don't trout me, but I'm afraid I have to go against the grain and say that I wish they had put that Uruk Hai scene in. Maybe not there on the shore, but somewhere! Don't get me wrong, I love that scene as it is, but I do wish Frodo would have gotten a bit of Uruk-Hai-fighting in, WITHOUT Sam saving him. If he had encountered an Uruk before he got to the shore, I would be satisfied.

That's been the biggest disappointment for me in both movies so far -- that Frodo hardly gets to do *anything*, when he was such a strong character in the book. Most notably at the Ford (sigh...I won't even go there), but even in TTT. Actually, in TTT, it's not so much that he doesn't get to do anything, but that the Ring has too much of a hold on him too soon! I for one did not like the Osgiliath-Nazgul-scene (now Sauron will know who carries the Ring and where he is, right??), and Shelob's Lair is pretty much my last hope. So I'm torn between two loyalties -- I love Elijah, but I also love the book-Frodo! Now why couldn't they combine the two?? :confused:

Sorry for the rant, I'm tired and in a rather bad mood -- RL butting in uninvited, of course. :( Sigh.

Ariel

02-22-2003, 05:08 PM

Originally posted by Tathar
I for one did not like the Osgiliath-Nazgul-scene (now Sauron will know who carries the Ring and where he is, right??), and Shelob's Lair is pretty much my last hope.

OME, Tathar, I could have written that post!! Regardless of what others might say, I AGREE WITH YOU almost word for word (not sure about the Uruk chasing Fro - but agree with your reasons for wanting it). I love that the movies have been done and adore Elijah's Frodo - but he's not quite what I was hoping for when I first heard he was playing the role. Now, don't get me wrong... if PJ plays Shelob's Lair right, all may be completely forgiven, but I would have liked to have seen a bit more of Mr. Baggins' steel. I know all the logical reasons and explanations of why he is played as he is, and I am happy that so many people liked the way he was portrayed, but I wish PJ had given Elijah a chance to play him just a bit stronger. The worst part about being just a bit disappointed with Frodo as PJ directed him is that, knowing how good an actor Elijah is, I know he could have done a braver Fro brilliantly.

Oh, well... I shouldn't complain... it could have been FAR, FAR worse. I am 95% thrilled with the films so far, and that is a pretty good percentage considering someone else made them. ;) It's certainly better than any other book to film adaptation I have ever seen.

Ariel

erendis

02-22-2003, 07:33 PM

Er -- we've had this discussion, many times.

Went to see TTT last night on a whim, and happily I did not cringe at all! Even Haldir's bad blue screening did not seem so bad this time. Faramir's line did not come out as "We understand each other" but instead I heard "Well, I can't just say Release them so I'll make up some useless "expository" claptrap like Galadriel did."

I don't think I've accepted TTT, instead I guess I've built up the immunity to the iocaine powder. :rolleyes:

[zombie voice] Must have TTT SE DVD. [/zombie voice]

Anyway, would you believe that I'm starting to be become annoyed with Elijah's Twitchy Eyes? :eek: Best example of Twitchy Eyes is the very beginning of the scene in the Emyn Muil where he has his little heart attack. His Eyes goes quivery, and then he puffs his cheeks out (I've never seen the Cheek Puff -- new research proposal for Tg?), then he sits down. He pulls the same Twitchy Eyes In HA when he says "Dead? When? How?" For some reason, I don't want to see that Eye twitch again. I can't quite pinpoint what I don't like about it, but now it seems to be his signature move.

Nice editing parallel -- FotR Council when Frodo gets his migraine, and TTT Dead Marshes, when Frodo has his flashback to Weathertop. It's the same rapid-fire gets-closer editing trick. I likes...

tgshaw

02-22-2003, 07:48 PM

Hmmmm... Regarding the posts since I was here this morning. I'm sure the Frodo-fighting-Uruk-Hai idea was strictly from the studio. And I'm one of the ones who would have been horrified if it had been used. I very much would have liked to have seen a stronger, more mature, more take-charge movie-Frodo (and if anyone could play a middle-aged person living in a young body, it would be Elijah), but in ways that were true to book-Frodo, which IMHO that scene would not have been--in fact, the way movie-Frodo had been developed, it would have been even more out-of-character for him than for book-Fro. IMVHO, taking away strong scenes that are right for the character and then injecting ones that aren't would be a double insult. And, hey, would I vote to lose the best nostril acting ever in favor of another fight scene :p ?

----------

Yes, I was here this morning, with every intention of getting in my daily post and then getting on with other things. Who did I think I was kidding? :rolleyes: It's Saturday, so I wanted to follow a couple of the links that had been posted, which I don't usually do during the week. ----- Hey, Bridget, did you know the original thread those LotR parodies were taken from is still active (last post is from today) and is now 35 pages long?!! :eek: For anyone else who wants to ROTFLTAO and has time on their hands (not that I do, but, well, you know how that goes :o ), here's the URL for the thread. (I checked the posting rules for the forum, and they're at least as strong as they are here, so there shouldn't be any content problem with linking to it): If Someone Else Had Written LotR!? (http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=138905)

No, I didn't read the entire 35 pages (but I have it bookmarked). Just enough that it forced me to spend most of the afternoon writing one myself. I came this close to registering at that forum so I could post it there, but came to my senses before it was too late. Posting something means I'd have to go back and read what gets posted after it, and then I'd see another thread that looks interesting, and then... :eek: :eek: So, another page for the March update on my website, methinks--which gives me the advantage of being able to tell myself the afternoon wasn't completely wasted, as I hadn't written a Tolkien-related one yet. It's about time for something silly there, anyway--the essays have all been terribly serious since the one about football, and that was last July.

So, anyway, I'm still glad Bridget posted that material :) , because I knew I'd seen that disclaimer from Mark Twain and it was nice to know I hadn't been imagining it. What I think my somewhat confused brain did (hey, don't let anyone tell you menopause can't be fun!) was remember seeing it by Mark Twain, but then combine it with the Tolkien parody of it that was stored away in the gray matter, and come out with a manufactured memory of seeing something similar actually written by Tolkien. Oh, well--we know Tolkien did the various forms of speech on purpose, so I guess we don't need documentation on that, anyway. But the fact that Twain did the same thing with existing dialects isn't so widely known.

Before I followed that link, I checked out the one on the hockey game. Was somewhat disappointed that the "Meet the Team" feature is only for the opposing team from Microsoft (who seems to sponsor this whole series of charity hockey games). I'm impressed, though. A lot of the sports events where "celebrities" play for charity don't demand a lot of skill, but for hockey you at least have to be able to get around on ice skates, which is no mean feat in itself. Noticed that one of the "celebrity coaches" for Elijah's team is fellow former Iowan Tom Arnold. Hmmm.... Do you think, if EW gets his front teeth knocked out, he'll ask to have the gap duplicated in the replacements :p ?

--------------

One thought on the Frodo speaking Elvish question. Possibly on one of the SE DVDs? The three theatrical releases are supposed to combine into one story, and the three SE into a slightly different story, and in the FotR SE, Frodo at least understands enough Elvish to know that Aragorn's chant is about a woman.

And, finally--geesh, this morning seems so long ago--thanks for the pics, deluby. I hadn't seen that first poster before, and it's beautiful :) . I have seen the second; in fact, it's one of the pics I tried to make an avatar from and failed because the nose just wouldn't come out right.

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Edit re erendis' simulpost: Twitchy eyes? Cheek puffs? [Oh, my, it has been a long day--I just typed "Cheese puffs."] I haven't seen TTT for quite awhile but hope to before long (my last two attempts have been defeated by weather and traffic tie-ups, so I'm not making any predictions). These areas will, of course, have to be thoroughly investigated ;) .

Prim

02-23-2003, 02:52 AM

Anyway, would you believe that I'm starting to be become annoyed with Elijah's Twitchy Eyes? Best example of Twitchy Eyes is the very beginning of the scene in the Emyn Muil where he has his little heart attack. His Eyes goes quivery...

Huh? Sorry erendis , can you spell this out for a tired moron- who-hasn't-seen-the-movie-for-quite-some-time? What twitch? I don't recollect a twitch????:confused: Not that I have anything particular against twitches you know, having done a few myself lately.( prim tries hard to control her twitch...) But still- do you mean like a wink? An eyelid flicker? As an anal retentive Faculty member I really need to know...;)

peaceweaver-I'm so ridiculously glad to see your old name. I should have said so when you first asked the question, but so many other things were on my mind. I'm sorry. I did answer your question in my mind. No help in real life at all I know but still. :)
I am glad about the name. I never did agree with Shakespeare re the rose smelling as sweet under any name...

Tathar- I wouldn't want that final Frodo at the river scene with the determination and "the chin" changed in any way and yet... I think I would have liked to see EW /Frodo kick butt at least a little at Amon Hen.

Ah, the nose , the nose. For some reason I really like EW's nose. peaceweaver said its classic: it really is startlingly Greek. Cool.

erendis

02-23-2003, 05:40 AM

Hmm, well perhaps twitch isn't quite the right word. It's not just an Eyelid flicker; he uses the muscles around his Eyes to widen and narrow his Eyes a few times. He opens his mouth too. He goes from expressionless to that standard fearful expression (the expression that people have claimed is his only expression. :rolleyes: ), with his Eyes widening and narrowing in the process. I think he did a similar action in the Pony when he sees the Eye, but without the back-and-forth. I'm hoping someone else can confirm that I'm not hallucinating.

IMO it looks a little unnatural. In TTT Frolijah did it twice, under different emotional circumstances (Seeing the Eye and learning of Boromir's death), whichs leads me to believe that PJ directed it specifically, rather than Elijah doing his normal talented microexpressions, which are tailored per emotion. Don't laugh, but I tried to do it myself just now, and it's not easy to do such small movements, especially if you have to involve a Cheese Puff in the middle.

ainon

02-23-2003, 06:10 AM

The scene was filmed. :p PJ says so, although it's not clear how much was filmed; they just knew from the get go that it was wrong. EW also mentions that it took him an hour to get warm, which seems to hint he had some experience dipping into that cold lake as well.

Anyway, check out the four commentaries on the DVD. Chapter 19 of the second disc. Clear indication that I am *so* a geek in desperate need of a life - I kinda went through them for fun and pulled out the relevant quotes. It was a rainy day today! It was something to do! Not that I'm transcribing everything of course. At the very heart of the matter I'm still a thoroughly lazy slob. :D

- Barrie Osbourne and Mark Ordesky provide the plot outline.

Barrie: (the original ending had) "Frodo and Sam rowing across the lake and New Line felt that was too flat. ... came up with the idea that when you thought they had escaped and the boat was out on the lake and an Uruk Hai came out from under the boat, reached up and pulled Frodo out of the boat and they went and had this battle in the water and Frodo was just about dying ... "

Mark: "In the struggle, the Ring slips off Frodo's neck somehow and gets down in the water and the Uruk, captivated by the Ring, goes for it and is so obsessed with it that he actually drowns himself trying to get the Ring. Sam is able to whack the Uruk and get Frodo out of the water ... (it's a) "plot-driven conventional kind of like ... just when you think the villain is vanquished and the villain is still around kind of ending."

Barrie: explains they were never satisfied with that ending and they had the Think Tank work on it, and the group came up with the ending now in the film, plus reasons behind the decision

Mark: "... far more dramatically and emotionally charged breaking of the fellowship and the near breaking of Frodo and Sam, but of course not."

- PJ & Fran Walsh & Philippa Boyens

PJ provides the quote about filming the scene twice (two versions) and first time there was an Uruk Hai attacking Frodo in the water. A year later they went back to reshoot everything new.

Fran: "... (there was a studio note): ... they were really worried about the closure of the story, that the film wouldn't be satisfying to an audience if it didn't have some kind of big action moment for Frodo, and so we promised to have a go and think about it ... and we wrote something which we didn't feel wonderful about but we thought maybe they're right - we didn't know. And as soon as we started to try and execute it we realised it was completely wrong ..."

PB: (explaining the scene that made it on screen) "... the good triumph for Frodo is not over some sort of Uruk Hai of Saruman's but it is over theRing. It's when he grabs that Ring and does not allow the Ring to control him."

Richard Taylor had something to say about it too, but him you gotta listen for yourselves. :D

-------------------------

Yes, I can confirm the cheek puff. After the shock of seeing the Eye, he exhales suddenly - well, he puffs, then he quickly leans and sits down. That's the best I can do to describe the sequence there. Not surprisingly I like it. :p

As for the eye-twitching, well, okay I get what you mean, erendis. That is the standard expression for surprise/aghast horror/fear that most actors put on - except for most actors I would see one fixed expression. EW does seem to manage to allow all those emotions to flicker through in the Faramir scene. It's got to be something EW would have done before though, considering his career. Research time, anybody?

Tathar

02-23-2003, 08:51 AM

Ariel, glad someone agrees with me! :D Yes, we'll have to keep our fingers crossed that PJ will do the Shelob's Lair scene right... and maybe we'll even hear Frodo speak a little Elvish, which I always thought was important, too.

ainon, thanks for getting all that info -- I hadn't listened to the commentary about that scene from anyone but the Director/Writer team. So it sounds like Sam would have come save the day again, huh? :( Though it would be interesting to see someday, I think it would have been better if on his way to the boats Frodo has a run-in with an Uruk. That would have been great to see -- maybe he'd have gotten a little moment without Sam! :rolleyes: Hmmmm, sounds like a good fanfiction idea...

And I thought PJ said sometime last year that there would be an outtakes-type DVD released, maybe after ROTK?? Maybe the Uruk-Hai scene would be in it.

That charity hockey game is today -- I wonder if it'll be on TV anywhere? :D

Bridget Chubb

02-23-2003, 12:21 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
No, I didn't read the entire 35 pages (but I have it bookmarked). Just enough that it forced me to spend most of the afternoon writing one myself.

I haven't read much of that thread, but I have it bookmarked too, and what I have read is brilliant.:D Now I have to know - which author did you parody?? Or do we have to wait until you upload it to find out?;)

Maeglian

02-23-2003, 03:48 PM

Bridget, I followed that link too, and spent too much time on it. Its hilarious and impressive both. Did you watch the movie with Humphrey Bogart as Frodo and Marlene Dietrich as Galadriel? Totally priceless! :D

Ainon geek away, please!! :) :cool:

Although, I have to say, while reading your post I did my own personal eyelid flickering and standard fearful expression. (In no way as pretty as the one performed by EJW, unfortunately) I never really got around to listening to the commentary tracks except for the actors and director/screenwriters, you see :o ) So reading your recap of what Osbourne and Ordesky had to say nearly gave me something similar to a Ring-induced heart attack. They were going to clutter up my favourite FotR scene with *that*?!? Frodo, - very nearly dying, helpless, in need of rescue again? Sam saving him and the day like he gets to do so often in the 2 next films? I am very relieved they didnt go for that in the final cut. But I have already written so much about my opinion on FotR- and TTT- Frodo on this and also another board, Ill spare you further repetition of that! (It's a positive opinion, btw...)

(However, this did lead to a moment of speculation about how the ending of TTT may have come into being. Heres the result, purely conjectural and freely imagined, of course, so probably as far from the actual truth as it could possibly be)

Scene: Wellington, on evening in late April 2002, Peter Jackson, Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens in a script conference for the TTT additional scenes and re-shooting that will soon take place. Its late and everyones frustrated.

PJ: The studio is *very* clear on this. There has to be clearly understandable closure, some conventional type of ending that makes the general audience recognize and understand whats going on with Frodo.

FW: But we dont want to go there! Weve been there, tried that, it didnt work! Frodos fight is internal, hes fighting the Ring, thats the most vicious, continuous and serious fight in the trilogy! Why is that so hard for the Studio to accept? They do get Helms Deep in the film, after all!

PJ: I know, I know but they simply wont let us get away without showing him in a fight this time around! Theyre pretty adamant.

PB: OK, well, lets be constructive, lets give them a compromise. Something non-conventional but still something thatll freak the audience out, something really terrifying. Lets see

FW: I have it! First well let Frodo re-enact his struggle with the Ring, only much more intense this time, you know.. hes almost giving in, hes *so close* to losing the battle........*and* this happens directly in front of one of the Nazgul on his frightening fell beast!! And *then*

PJ: (interrupts) Well, so what happens to the Nazgul? We cant have Frodo fighting one of *them*, hes supposed to be much weaker now, and he couldn't fight them off as far back as Weathertop!

FW: Oh, well just repeat the Ford you know, something or someone drives away the Nazguls steed. Faramir, perhaps? But first itll come *really* close to getting hold of Frodo, - yes; - lets have it look like the huge fell beast is going to *eat* him!

PB (whispers): And he looks good enough to eat, too..

(The ladies exchange glances. PJ looks exasperated.)

PB (Continueing quickly): Oh, come on! Thatll be a *huge* cinematic moment, it will be extremely terrifying and provide a kind of closure thatll be recognizable.

PJ (Brightens at the prospect of the cinematography, but only for a moment): But still thats just an internal fight with a terrifying spectator, isnt it? We need something external, something obvious! Not everybody *gets* this internal fight thing, you know, they think hes just a whimp standing around crying a lot, and at the most improper times too, when he really should be kicking butt! I mean, even half the studio people....... (Sighs) We *need* a fight. We cant go another round without some sort of big action moment for Frodo.

(Exasperated silence all around, then: )

FW: OK, so well have him fight *Sam*! Because of the Rings influence, hell attack Sam! Viciously. That gets us a big fight, with a surprise element *and* very emotionally charged, and its a fight Frodo could actually almost win

PB: And it ups the angst!!!

FW: And afterwards we can still have Elijah replicate the beautiful weeping scene, all tragic sadness and despair,..pale beautiful face and huge grief-filled eyes and crystal tears.. Once Frodo comes back to himself, just in the nick of time, of course, - and realizes what hes done.

PB: The aaahngst!

(The ladies exchange looks, PJ rolls his eyes skyward.)

FW (Brightly): And anyway, this should *really* please Elijah. He was griping about how he didnt get to do any swordfighting after all the training; - well, heres his chance!

PJ (Buys that, but still ponders): Ok, but still, theyll never let us get away without a good old-fashioned climax that provides closure *and* points towards the next film as well

(They all think long and hard about this.)

FW: Well , heres a proposal then: After the fight, Sam can get to his feet and close the film with a statement about what the story is about and why they should keep fighting despite the horrors theyre experiencing. And *then*, we show all the heros of Helms Deep, looking out over Middle Earth, and reflecting aloud how this was nothing; - *now* the real battle starts. You know, a kind of tune in to next episode kind of thing. That gives closure and a summary, it has conventional action, it gives a pre-view, its perfect!

PJ: That *should* satisfy the studio. And the general audience. And the angst lovers, and the action fans, and the cinematography appreciators, and the swooners, and

FW: I dont think the purists will be happy.

(Silence)

PB: Well, after all that, well end the film with something true canon lets use Sam and Frodo talking about the Great Tales and whether theyll be in one.

All: Thats great! Thats it! This ending should please *everyone*!! Go us! There wont be a *single* complaint!!

........ Or so they thought. But the rest is history. :D

peaceweaver

02-23-2003, 03:56 PM

Maeg: ROFL!

I can sooo imagine this whole scene happening! Fabulous!

Many thanks.

Meryl Marie

02-23-2003, 07:35 PM

Maeglian, that is brilliantly funny! You so rock! :k :D

Eldalieva

02-23-2003, 07:49 PM

Maeglian, I am now convinced that you were a fly on the wall of the room during that final script meeting, April 2002! I think that's EXACTLY how we got the ending we did!!

Ariel

02-23-2003, 10:28 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
...But the rest is history. :D

Oh, Maeglian!!! :k

Wonderful! HEHE HEHE

Ariel

ainon

02-23-2003, 10:47 PM

Oh Maeg ... ROTFLMAO and wiping tears from eyes. You're on a genius, Maeg, and you're on a roll. :k What are you on and can I have some too? ;)

As per usual, I'm stealing time and Net access when I shouldn't :p But only because I want to share!

From TORn:

http://img-www.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/6149.jpg

And because all those years of geeky couch potatodom had to doom me some day ...

Originally posted by Maeglian
Although, I have to say, while reading your post I did my own personal eyelid flickering and standard fearful expression.

But you gotta be sure - which standard fearful expression are you executing? There're so many!

There's the 'Oh dear, the love of my life has been blown to smithereens and now I an numbed by grief and fear (cinematic note: shoot frames at half speed) before my face slowly contorts into grief and anger'.

There's the above, with the different '... and next scene you see me I shall be wallowing in angstful numbed mourning at a convenient bar, which shall also be the set-up for my next meeting with my arch enemy' (brief digression - Harrison Ford's Indy can do this one all day long. I won't mind. Not at all)

There's the first one above, held in long lingering close-up leading up to TV commercial break.

There's the soap opera 'I shall now hold this gaze and stare into your eyes with lingering swirliness while the director emphasises this moment to the greatest effect'. My personal favourite. If it weren't for these, soap operas wouldn't be half the fun they are. :D Although okay, soap opera actors don't do much flickering. But boy, do they gaze. With swirly emphasis. :p

Then there's the classic stock expression 'I am now full of fear and though I know I look horrible, I, as an actor, am fully prepared for my close-up'. I'm convinced Jamie Lee Curtis lived for those moments. ;)

And not exactly the last, but I am learning to shut up before it's too late:

The above classic stock expression, to then morph into the classic 'scream for my life like no actress before me has ever screamed before'. Sad to say, not every actress seems to hit the mark for this one. Tough. :p

Narya Celebrian

02-23-2003, 11:02 PM

LOL - what a turn this thread has taken!! Who knew so many faculty members were (or could be) moonlighting as stand up comics?? This is great!!

(((Faculty)))

tgshaw

02-24-2003, 07:19 AM

Well, it's the morning after the hockey game. Does anyone know if the front teeth and the Greek nose are still intact ;) ?

Bridget--I wrote "Excerpts from the Red Book of Westmarch," as translated by A.A. Milne. Since it's entirely book-related, I won't go into it here, except to give the cast of characters mentioned (so far--the temptation is great...): Bilbo the Hobbit, Christopher Gandalf, Eefro, Samlet, and Owlrond (oh, and the hefalump, of course). Since Frodo and Eeyore (yes, really!) are two of my favorite literary characters, I especially like Eefro.

The hardest part of setting up the website for March has been getting all the links set up for the **new** EW section (the section's new--most of the material isn't, although hopefully there will be a page of Huck Finn caps). That part of the setup is pretty much done, although I imagine there will be some bugs in the system for awhile. BTW--if anyone wanted to copy pics from "Galadriel's Arrival" (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id127.htm) and hasn't done it yet, that page will be coming down. I'm very fond of "A Guy Thing?" (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id126.htm) but it may have to go, too (there's only so much room!).
Originally posted by ainon
Anyway, check out the four commentaries on the DVD. Chapter 19 of the second disc. Clear indication that I am *so* a geek in desperate need of a life -
ainon--This implies that being a geek is not a life :confused: . Interesting that the ending that was considered "a little flat" was Frodo & Sam rowing across the river. Would that mean the final ending where they look out over the Emyn Muil was added later, too? Or maybe it just means the climax itself was changed, which according to the writers' commentary would be Frodo closing his hand over the Ring?

Also, ainon, I love that anime pic. Got a laugh from the traditional "xx" for the eyes assuring us that the rabbit's dead (just in case we weren't sure) :D . And since I don't know what any of the characters in the dialogue mean (good ol' ethnocentric American that I am :rolleyes: ), it comes across to me as what a cartoonist uses when someone's mumbling--or swearing--which is also pretty funny in that particular "shot."

Hmmm... I may be the only person here who didn't laugh at Maeg's writing team reinactment--I just [i]nodded through the entire thing because it was so entirely plausible :cool: !! (Well, let's see, I did get a laugh from the "no complaints" prediction at the end :D !)

There was something bothering me about this picture that was posted on the last page--and it's that the mithril shirt is visible. Now, it might not be able to win the war for Gondor, but it sure could finance it; each link could probably pay a mercenary or two. I've tried to watch for a peek of it in the movie while Frodo and Sam are with Faramir and haven't seen one (maybe someone else has??). If that's the reason this shot was cut, I totally agree. Tolkien avoided messing with that decision in the book, keeping things focused on the Ring--IMHO that was a Very Good Decision (sorry, still channeling A.A. Milne) and the moviemakers were right in following it. I can't imagine it being this visible and Faramir or one of his men not realizing what an opportunity they have:

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/ttt05/ttt045.jpg

erendis

02-24-2003, 07:19 AM

Can anyone translate the -- er -- is that Chinese or Korean? I think it's Chinese.

I think the patented Soap Opera Gaze is prolonged so that they can play the oooh-dramatic music and let the addicts at home know that this character would be covered in the days' show.

On a side note, never have I seen so much fan art, fan cartoons, or fanfiction as I have seen for the LotR movies. Even Star Wars hasn't produced all these cartoons.

tgshaw

02-24-2003, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by erendis
On a side note, never have I seen so much fan art, fan cartoons, or fanfiction as I have seen for the LotR movies. Even Star Wars hasn't produced all these cartoons.
Well, to be fair, Tolkienites had quite a head start. The one serious fanfic I ever wrote was over twenty years ago and at that time fanzines with fanfic and other goodies had already been around for ten or more years (circulating via snail mail :eek: !). There've been fan parodies and cartoons and artwork as long as I can remember, which regarding LotR would be the late 1960's, and most likely before that. So many--if not most--of the people who are now producing work based on the movies have had a lot of practice and/or a lot of previous fan work based on the book to go from.

peaceweaver

02-24-2003, 09:59 AM

tg: Well, it's the morning after the hockey game. Does anyone know if the front teeth and the Greek nose are still intact ?

Alas, neither the Greek nose nor the front teeth showed up for said hockey game, so one presumes they are still intact. ;) The official line is that there was a "scheduling" difficulty.

Oh and tg, interesting note about the mithril shirt. And thanks for posting that picture! :) That will keep me going all day!

Goldenberry

02-24-2003, 10:17 AM

Does anyone else think that Gollum looks like Tweety Bird in that anime cartoon that ainon posted?

:p

I have to wonder if Elwood's scheduling difficulty involved his director finding out about the hockey game and "scheduling" him right out of it.

Narya Celebrian

02-24-2003, 12:01 PM

Re: the mithril shirt. When the first clips came out before the movie, the sharp-eyed Harem noted that you can see the mithril coat during the Faramir-lifting-the-ring-at-swordtip scene. Not as obviously as in that picture, but still clearly visible. Very visible in the theatre, though the scene is dramatic enough that most people will be looking at the sword and the ring, not further over to the left. ;)

I presume it's just not really a big issue if Faramir or his men catch a glimpse of it, because it was power and strength they needed for the battle with Sauron, not riches.

Back on topic...OK, I don't have anything to say that's back on topic. :rolleyes: :p

tgshaw

02-24-2003, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
Does anyone else think that Gollum looks like Tweety Bird in that anime cartoon that ainon posted?
Well, now that you mention it... :p Interesting what little details they picked out--like his backbone showing through his skin.

An interesting detail on Frodo, BTW: The entire pic seems to be movie-canon (clothes, basic appearance of characters, even the way the scene is set up), but I do believe Frodo is shown with brown eyes. (Gollum's look gray--hard to tell what color they're supposed to be.)

I have to wonder if Elwood's scheduling difficulty involved his director finding out about the hockey game and "scheduling" him right out of it.
Does anyone know if he showed up at the Grammy Awards? I'd wondered about that timing, as the hockey game wasn't scheduled to start til 4:00 pm (although I doubt if a celebrity version would last the usual three hours ;) ).

Goldie, are you saying his director might have been protecting (his investment in) said front teeth and Greek nose :eek: ? I can see how it could mess things up if an actor in a major supporting role broke his nose during a movie shoot. Talk about continuity problems :eek: .

If Elijah really wanted to play in the hockey game, I kind of feel for him, though. Warning--I'tsAllAboutMe story ahead. Feel free to skip my experience as a child nerd :rolleyes: .

When I was in grade school, there was a big city-wide jacks tournament each year (the boys had one for marbles). It was played in pairs, and already being a complete klutz, I hadn't found anyone willing to be my partner (ever--not just once). One year, the day the very first elimination round was being played on our school playground, someone's partner was sick and I was asked to take her place. I was thrilled!! It was a kind of cold and windy spring day, and not long after we started playing my teacher came out and dragged me inside--I was in a speech contest that night and she didn't want my voice affected by the cold air :rolleyes: . (She said something like, "What were you thinking?") I don't remember anything about the speech contest except that I won some kind of pen and pencil set I never used. But I'll never forget getting pulled out of that jacks game. [Sigh] Winning speech contests, essay contests, science fairs was part of everyday life, but to have someone think I could play jacks, like some kind of "normal" kid, was incredible!

End IAAM story.

So, anyway, if Elijah really wanted to get out on the ice and kick some butt, I hope he gets to do it before too long--maybe between movies :) .

Maeglian

02-24-2003, 04:18 PM

(((((((tg)))))))) :)

I love that anime pic, too (despite the brown eyes.) All four of them (yes, even the dead rabbit!) look so plain *adorable*! I'm curious about what they are saying, too. It must be fun for EJW & Co to become parodied, copied and easily recognizable popular culture figures like that. And their cloaks! Gotta *love* the cloaks! Slowly and surely those grey, not very impressive, elven cloaks have imprinted themselves so much on my (and many others') image of Frodo and Sam that it almost doesn't seem like the true Frodo and Sam without those cloaks! Ngila rocks! :)

ainon, LOL!
(I'm afraid my standard fearful expression is rather of the staple Soap Operaish kind - there's no getting away from those loooong, wide-eyed, "meaningful" stares into the camera! )
However, I was also thinking about *this* one: the classic 'scream for my life like no actress before me has ever screamed before'. Sad to say, not every actress seems to hit the mark for this one. Tough! The question is, if you replace actress with actor in that sentence, did EJW himself hit the mark for that one as Casey? I'm blushing to admit I'm not really sure. :o Time to give the Faculty DVD another spin, seemingly!

Thank you all for kind words about my script-writing moment of clarity! I did realize later on that there actually were a couple of crucial moments I forgot to include. :o
One, of course, was early on when they discussed whether Frodo's big action moment fight should be with Faramir. Lots of fun possibilities there!! They could have had a duel! :eek: And the other one was towards the end, when they discussed whether the audience would get the whole "At last we understand one another..." after they replaced the feisty Fro scene and the scenes leading up to Faramir's decision with the Studio-Induced Action Moment, Summary and Pre-View (TM) Their conclusion obviously was that it was reasonably understandable anyway. And if not, well; - audiences need to have their imagination challenged, too, right? :D

[Totally OT - LotR parody / WoT]
About writing LotR parodies, if I had time I'd write the Mirror of Galadriel in the style of the Wheel of Time by Robert Jordan. Now there's a parody that's simply *begging* to be written! I don't think there are any other Jordan fans here? I do know there are some Jordan fans posting in other threads here at KD, though.

It would be *so* easy....
Frodo, hearing the Ring cackling in his head, feeling the pain of that wound that will never properly heal, depressed and obsessing over how much easier it would be to just lay down and die than fulfilling the terrible duty of the quest, feeling the wonderful and sickening rush and power of the Ring and the Mirror, worrying over not understanding Galadriel or any other woman ever, and envying Pippin and Merry a lot because *they* obviously understand women so well. Galadriel on her part, full of haughty stares and sporting a very enigmatic face, adjusting and re-adjusting her skirt, tinkling her plentiful elven jewellery, misunderstanding Frodo's every word, plan and action altogether, being caught off guard by some unexpected act of his such as offering her the Ring, calling him a long and choice selection of insulting names........ Add to that a long-winded description of the mirror dell location, the mirror itself, the weather, Galadriel's lineage and family history, both their clothes, and Frodo's past history.; - it would simply be WoT in a nutshell!! :rolleyes: :D

[/OT]

Eldalieva

02-24-2003, 11:01 PM

TG, your jacks tournament story was very sad. :( I, too was a child nerd and very awkward and uncoordinated and no one ever picked me for anything either. So I can understand that it would have been better to play jacks that day than participate in some stupid speech contest. But at least you WON the stupid speech contest, I never even worked my way up to that, so I wasn't even a very good child nerd, come to think about it.

I'm pretty glad EW got "scheduled out of" the hockey tournament though, for two selfish reasons: 1) I didn't go, and I would have been both livid and heartbroken if I'd paid $120 for "good seats" to do nothing but sit there and freeze and watch some guys swat sticks around the ice and 2) I sure would hate to see anything happen to THAT FACE, ESPECIALLY the Greek Nose and the Front Teeth!

My Huck Finn DVD came today, so of course I rushed home to watch it---what a treasure trove of Froshadowing! Now I know what TG means when she says she looked at EW as Huck Finn and saw young Frodo growing up by the Brandywine! My personal favorite Froshadowing moment is at the beginning, when Jim is telling Huck's fortune...everything about that scene reminds me of Frodo and Gandalf sitting at Bag End's kitchen table in FoTR!

And poor EW got pretty roughed up in this movie. I can't believe they let Ron Perlman pick him up by his head like that!! :mad: I wouldn't do that to my dog!

However, I do have to say that, while I understand this is a Disney movie, and therefore, squeaky clean by definition, I never pictured Huck Finn quite so rosy-cheeked and, well...squeaky clean. I always imagined him as gangly and hard looking....kind of like the way those dusty little kids looked in the early years of the Little Rascals movie shorts.

BunnieBugs

02-24-2003, 11:23 PM

With all this talk of Huck Finn and Froshadowings, I just had to share this with you: it's an icon that I found while perusing a friend's LiveJournal (I don't think she'll mind me sharing it), and while it's not exactly a Froshadowing, it took my breath away when I saw it. So lovely!

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1671688.jpg

Narya Celebrian

02-24-2003, 11:28 PM

Elda, tg, now I want to invite you both over to play jacks at my house! :k Childhood is funny - I was an ace jacks player, one of the best at my school, and was pretty good at chinese skipping too - but I would have paid good money if anyone over the age of 10 had, even once, acted as if there were interested in anything I ever had to say. No speech contests and science fairs for me! (Oh yah, and I won the spike driving competition in Grade 7 too - beat all the boys! No wonder they wouldn't date me...:rolleyes: )

I grew into my nerdiness, I guess... ;)

The first time my sister and I watched Huck Finn together, we were laughing so hard at the unexpected Froshadowings that sometimes it hurt. 'Look, little Frodo running through the woods! Look, little hurt Frodo tucked up in bed! Look, little scared Frodo! Look, little Frodo in the boat!" It was wonderful. I had to watch it again alone to really appreciate the acting - the first time through, the Froshadowings were just too uncanny.

Hobmom

02-25-2003, 02:33 AM

Well, now I must drag myself away from constant repeat viewings of the SE DVD and re-watch Huck.

Did Ron Perlman REALLY grab that exquisite child by his HEAD?

Yeah, I remember he tried to shoot him but...his head??!!!

Sob!!

The humanity!!!!

Oh.. Love the icon, Bunnie!!!!

As for my pitiful childhood.. I was the skinny...THEN......little geek-nerd-waif-whiney-cry-baby that got used as target practice for field-hockey sticks. Good at spelling bees, though.

Eldalieva

02-25-2003, 06:48 AM

Yes, Hobmom! BY HIS HEAD! In the scene where he kidnaps him from the Widow's house, Huck's Pappy puts one hand over Huck's mouth and the other on the back of his head and then lifts him off the floor. WAY off the floor...his feet were kicking in the air! OUCH!!!

GREAT GREAT icon Bunnie!! You know, I would be in seventh heaven if any Photoshop genius out there could merge Elijah's Huck Finn with some lovely dark hobbity curls. Just a thought!

Elda packs up her jacks to go to Narya's house.

peaceweaver

02-25-2003, 08:45 AM

Well, it is clear that any Faculty Meetings must include a jacks tournament. :p

Hmmm, do little girls *still* play with jacks?

Maeglian

02-25-2003, 09:33 AM

My shortest post here ever:

What are jacks?

For that matter, what are speech contests? (Competing about writing and making a speech on a particular pre-defined subject ??)

:confused:

Narya Celebrian

02-25-2003, 10:35 AM

Hopelessly OT - unless you count this as an examination of what it is like to be a child nerd, which may be at least remotely on-topic...;)

Jacks are like girl's marbles. They are small, metal, six-pronged and x-shaped. Ten plus a small bouncy ball fit into your hand. Kneeling, you toss them on the floor, and then throw the ball into the air and let it bounce once while you pick up the jacks in sequence, catching the ball after one bounce in the same hand you have picked up the jacks. (i.e., all ten one at a time, then all ten two at a time, then all ten three at a time, etc.) You have to do this without moving the other jacks that are still on the ground, and without missing the ball. If you move a jack, or miss the ball, or pick up the wrong number, it is someone else's turn.

Variations (high level jacks!)- you pick up the jacks and catch the ball without letting it bounce - "around the world" (you have to pick up the jacks and do a complete circle around the ball with your hand while still letting it bounce only once) - Big Jacks (double the usual size, easier to pick up in small quantities but horrible to pick up all ten and still fit the ball in your hand.)

I'll let someone who actually did speech contests explain them!

(Do I get to claim child nerd status if I was getting 100% on spelling tests two grades ahead of my current grade?? :D)

tgshaw

02-25-2003, 11:23 AM

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Well, it is clear that any Faculty Meetings must include a jacks tournament. :p
Oh, a Faculty Field Day, perhaps! Elda and I could play jacks, Narya could be the MC, and we could give Hobmom a goalie mask and have her referee the hockey game so she can put any offenders in the penalty box for high-sticking. What other events do we need :p ? Of course, if we want Elwood to join in, we'd have to make it ice hockey since--in the U.S. at least--field hockey is only a girls' sport.

Hmmm, do little girls *still* play with jacks?
You know, I think I've seen them for sale only once or twice in recent years. Maybe partly due to safety concerns? Little tiny metal things, small enough to swallow, with sharp little points all over them. What's not to love ;) ? And, of course, to get the best bounce for the job you have to use a golf ball, which can knock somebody on the head pretty soundly. A class action suit waiting to happen :( .

Edit: I see Narya's already posted how the game's played, with a lot more details than I remember--but I've still left my description here. And, Narya, I'd say the spelling tests count--basically, anything that made anyone feel on the "outside," right?--and since everyone's had that happen at some point or other, we don't have to leave anyone on the outside :cool: !

That probably has Maeg even more confused :) . Geesh, the simplest games are the hardest to describe. You have a handful of these little pointy things (think 3D snowflakes made out of metal with their "arms" ending in points). About an inch from side to side :confused: ? You toss them on the ground in front of you (you're sitting on the ground--finding your best "playing position" is vital to the sport :p ). You toss a little ball into the air, pick up a certain number of the jacks, and catch the ball after it's bounced once (in the same hand that's holding the jacks--except in a few of the variations). There are all kinds of variations--almost like "skill levels" in video games--and as you go through the entire game the variations get more complicated and harder to do. Although the order of the variations was very "set" within one population (e.g., at one grade school or in one town), none of it was ever written down, and I'm sure they were different wherever you went. A normal kids' game in that way--as long as the girls who were playing together agreed on what the rules were, they could make them whatever they wanted (unless it was more structured, like a tournament, but that situation was pretty rare).

Oh, and, Maeg, you've pretty much got the idea of speech contests.

------emergency at work--hope to be back

Tathar

02-25-2003, 01:20 PM

Wow, Bunnie, that icon took my breath away when I saw it! :eek: Goodness, isn't that a perfect, beautiful....(tries to find a suitable description and fails). Sigh. :rolleyes:

You know, I would be in seventh heaven if any Photoshop genius out there could merge Elijah's Huck Finn with some lovely dark hobbity curls. Just a thought!

Yes, I think of that every time I see a Huck Froshadowing pic, Elda! Unfortunately, though, my knowledge of Photoshop is still badly in need of expansion...surely someone in the Faculty knows how to do it??

Oh, and one more thing: Going back to our previous (gosh, it seems like a long time ago, doesn't it? :rolleyes: ) discussion about Frolijah's wonderfully soft, musical voice and how wonderful it would sound speaking Elvish (or French!)...If you go here: :http://www.elvish.org/gwaith/language.htm, you can listen to a small clip from the SE DVD of FOTR. No, Frodo's not speaking Elvish, but it's a nice clip, I thought, though rather sad. Something you might want to listen to if you have nothing better to do (like me...). :D

The clip is used by the scholars ( :rolleyes: ) there to hear the song the Elves sing on their way to the Grey Havens (and try to translate it into English!), but what struck me is Frodo's voice here, explaining to Sam that the Elves are leaving. It's, as usual, soft and gentle, with that wonderful accent, but somehow it sounds very Elvish to me. My first thought when I saw that scene in the movie was, "How sad...Frodo belongs with the Elves, in a way."

That link might take you to the home page, so from there, click on "The Two Towers Lyrics," scroll down to the bottom of that page, click "back," then scroll down and click on "Fellowship of the Ring Lyrics," and from there, click on "A Elbereth Gilthoniel." (pant, pant) Sorry if that's confusing (who, me? Confusing?? Pshaw.)...that's how their site seems to work: the links always take you back to the homepage. Sigh. :p

Well, that turned into a long post -- and look, only the first part was OT. Isn't it amazing how easy it is to ramble?? :rolleyes:

Luthiea

02-25-2003, 04:49 PM

Hi people :)

I feel really bad, like I've been neglecting this place of late :( I've hardly been around.

Nice to see Peaceweaver is back her old self! :D

{{tg}} - Another child nerd/school outcast here, I was never picked for stuff like that either :(

Prim - how is your new job going? :k

Well that's it from me for now, and not a mention of EW! :eek:

{{{Faculty}}}

tgshaw

02-25-2003, 07:15 PM

Well, I was just ready to get on topic and start talking about Huck Finn when everything erupted at the office. All parties are now taken care of and gone :rolleyes: , so I'll try to pick up where I left off.

First--I absolutely love that icon, BB! And I don't even need the hair darker because that's the color of hair I first saw Frodo with, and it's brown, which is all that's needed for book canon (and, y'know, sometimes a person's hair gets darker as he gets older ;) ). It does need more curls, though, to be really hobbit-like. In that icon you can already see the little cleft chin--the one absolute necessity for Frodo, IMHO. And that particular shot is one that's incredibly more beautiful on the DVD than it is on the VHS, so I've been appreciating it whenever I see it lately :) .

Originally posted by Eldalieva
And poor EW got pretty roughed up in this movie. I can't believe they let Ron Perlman pick him up by his head like that!! :mad: I wouldn't do that to my dog!
I may be repeating a lot of stuff most people here already know, but since I've just recently had the chance to listen to the director's commentary--There were scenes that were filmed with Pap that they ended up cutting out of the movie because the kids in the "test" audiences got too scared, so what's still there is evidently tamer than some that was shot. Sounded like the two main actors spent plenty of time in cold water, too.

The director sounded a bit insensitive a few times--I'm sure he was kidding, but this is the guy who made both "Mummy" movies [Edit:I'm coming back and adding this sentence after writing the following three paragraphs--I do believe I was more upset by this than I realized before I started writing about it :( ]...

First, the director said they filmed the scene where the raft gets rammed by the riverboat in a warehouse with two feet of water, instead of actually on the river, for safety reasons--that sometimes an actor gets hurt on a shoot, but they had to be careful because if a little kid gets hurt you can get into trouble. Uh, yeah...

Then he and the other commentator (the screenwriter?) were talking about something really stupid (I'd have to go back and listen again to remember what it was) right at the moment when Huck gets shot, and they just kept bantering--after a bit, they did stop their other conversation and talk about how that scene was controversial and they weren't sure if they'd be able to keep it in, etc. But, sheesh...

Then, when Huck's lying on the ground unconscious, they talked about being able to see the pulse in his neck (which IIRC was mentioned here a long while back, but which I could never see until I got the DVD with its clearer picture). They evidently had wanted people to think Huck was dead--or at least that he might be--and they talked about how there's always something like that pulse to hurt the illusion. The director said that, yeah, he's tried to figure out a way around that problem, like maybe filming that scene last so you can just kill the actor and not have to worry about any signs of life messing things up. Like I said, I know he was kidding, but he talked so nonchalantly and cooly about killing a ten-year-old boy that it kind of unnerved me... (This is the director who said he'd beat Elijah with a stick if he found out he'd started smoking, and we discussed here how maybe we should call him up and tell him his services are needed. But after listening to this commentary, I'm not so sure I'd want to encourage him in the use of a weapon--not even a stick--especially around Elijah!!)

However, I do have to say that, while I understand this is a Disney movie, and therefore, squeaky clean by definition, I never pictured Huck Finn quite so rosy-cheeked and, well...squeaky clean. I always imagined him as gangly and hard looking....kind of like the way those dusty little kids looked in the early years of the Little Rascals movie shorts.
Kind of interesting that book-Huck/movie-Huck have some of the same differences between them as book-Frodo/movie-Frodo do--especially regarding age. Movie-Huck is four or five years younger than book-Huck, and at that age that makes a big difference. Just as in the LotR movies, a lot of things in the book had to be changed to make the story "work" with a younger character. Sometimes the changes aren't necessarily negative--for one thing, Jim's strength of character is shown more obviously in the movie; in the book, it's there but you have to look beneath the surface for it (which is hard to pull off in a movie--especially one for kids). A lot of what Jim says in the movie that has the effect of acting as Huck's conscience, goes on within Huck's mind in the book as he works things out for himself in a more mature way (and since the entire book is told by Huck in first person, that can be quite effective).

And although book-Huck does some of the things that are played for humor in the movie (such as dressing up as a girl, or "stretching the truth" at times), IMHO he doesn't come across in the book as "mischievous" or whatever else you might call a cute little kid who acts that way--he's surviving. There's a passage in the book where Huck's talking about a kind of food he likes, and before the end of it you realize he's describing hog slop--he hasn't had an easy life. He's learned to do what he needs to do to stay alive--but probably not too rosy-cheeked :( . He is better off at the beginning of the story than he was during a lot of his earlier life, having been taken in by the elderly pair of sisters.

So, yes, it's a very Disneyfied movie. If you take Elijah's other "Disney classic" role where he plays the Artful Dodger in Oliver Twist, and put it next to Huck Finn: If both movies had stayed true to the books, the ages would have been reversed. Book-Huck is about the age of Elijah's Artful Dodger (maybe just a tad younger). And "book-Artful Dodger" is supposed to be barely older than Oliver Twist. (Hmmm... interesting that the age changes in both movies give us a younger character more or less being "watched over" by an older one--which isn't really true in either book. Wonder if that's a Disney "family value"?)

IMHO, the big difference between the two is that the changes in Huck Finn work if you take the movie by itself (not comparing it to the book), where a lot of the changes in Oliver Twist just don't work, at least not for me. Both Huck and Dodger are actually a combination of two book characters. But, IMHO, the script in Huck Finn is good enough that Huck is definitely one coherent character, even though he takes over some of the book's action from Tom Sawyer. OTOH, the Dodger character in the movie never seems to quite come together for me, at least not enough that I can understand why he does some of the things he does. It's as if the original Dodger is put into the same body as the character he's combined with, but they never quite mesh. I dunno, maybe I need to watch that one again...

(My goodness, I be wordy tonight :eek: ! Next to LotR, Huck Finn's the EJW movie I've studied the most--along with the book. I should probably go home and stick in a different DVD :) .)

ainon

02-25-2003, 11:06 PM

{{{Luthiea}}}

Another former geek kid of woeful eye-motor coordination reporting in. My only claim to fame was that I'm flexible - I could, and still can, stretch my fingers past my toes and hold without missing a beat (to tie this to EW and stay on-topic ;) I can reach my leg up behind my head too, still, but it hurts like heck. Wait till EW gets to my age ... )

Okay, I needed those 'jacks' definitions too, and what I'm thinking is: you mean that game isn't just some backyard thingy that girls from this part of the world played?! Wow. Girls here use little stones, or little pouches filled with rice or peas. Another little girls game that I was absolutely pathetic at was this skipping game, where the skip rope is made from rings of rubber bands and the rope is held higher and higher off the ground as the game progresses - does this game exist in the West too?

Still on the subject of games international -- field hockey is a girl's sport in the US? :eek: Hockey isn't as big as football, of course, but it's still as Manly Male as you can get around here. Even the women who play hockey tend to be of the tough sort. Which basically meant that I was always trying to steer myself to the quietest corner of the playing area whenever I was forced to grab hold of a stick and 'play' hockey during physical education in school. :p

from previous page:

Originally posted by tgshaw
ainon--This implies that being a geek is not a life :confused: . Interesting that the ending that was considered "a little flat" was Frodo & Sam rowing across the river. Would that mean the final ending where they look out over the Emyn Muil was added later, too? [I do recall that EW said bits of that dialogue were filmed at two separate locations, months apart, and later patched together.] Or maybe it just means the climax itself was changed, which according to the writers' commentary would be Frodo closing his hand over the
Ring?

I was always thinking maybe the original draft was closer to canon, in that Sam convinces Frodo to take him along and so that was it. Which is rather flat, coming after the great drama of Boromir's death. As for Emyn Muil, I think what they meant was that while they were filming their TTT Emyn Muil scenes they also grabbed that shot, but then when it was time for pick-ups they wanted to add the close-up of Frodo turning to Sam?

About Huck Finn - yep, I know what you mean, tg. A lot of the stuff in the commentary is amusing (it's the director and the editor, btw) except you keep thinking of all that in context of that 10-year-old boy. And although this is a different thing actually, it reminds me of something Ian McKellen said in last year's Arena mag which sounds like a compliment and yet doesn't sound very nice either. Okay, here's the quote, transcribed from waroftherings.net scans:

"Elijah is a remarkable person and only 21. He's been acting most of his life and I think he learned the trick early of getting on very well with gronw-ups. They probably have it drummed into them by their chaperones, "You be nice to everybody. Do what you're told. Don't speak up unless you are told to." Elijah has absorbed that attitude, so he has all the good qualities of a professional actor without any of the silly side."

Back to Huck Finn, I always think of him all grown up and still cheeky as can be whenever I see this pic ;)

http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/behind04/behind034.jpg

And from TORn, check this out: If Geeks Ruled Oscar (http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/6156) :D

Narya Celebrian

02-25-2003, 11:27 PM

Originally posted by ainon
Another little girls game that I was absolutely pathetic at was this skipping game, where the skip rope is made from rings of rubber bands and the rope is held higher and higher off the ground as the game progresses - does this game exist in the West too?

Is this the same 'chinese skipping' that I mentioned in my post earlier? (I have no idea why we called it that - is that the part of the world this comes from?) We used long lengths of sewing elastic, tied together into a giant loop - you looped one end around a stationary object, the other around a friend, and starting at ankle height you moved it progressively higher as you jumped over and between it. We had all kinds of rhymes, and patterns (stepping on the rope, turning to wrap it around your own ankles, and then jumping out to land in between - kicking up front, kicking behind...) I was really good at it, and played for hours! Our mom's hated it - they could never keep sewing elastic on hand, we were always taking it to make new ropes!!

I haven't thought of this in years!!!

((((Faculty))))

Oh, and I loved that bit over at TORN. If Geeks Ruled Oscar, indeed! How different the world would look!!

DaisyTighfield

02-25-2003, 11:40 PM

Hello Faculty! :)
(What a cute discussion- jacks, skipping rope- only in the Faculty!:D)

As per the request(s) made for a Fro-ish picture of Huck, erm I tried to put The Wig on several Huck pictures and it didn't go terribly well. :eek: The best of the lot (below, for anyone interested), doesn't look terribly different from normal-Huck. :rolleyes: But it was fun to make, and I tried to put some curls on him!

Anyway, (((hugs))) to the Faculty! I love this place :k

edit: why am i always the first on the page? it's so embarassing...

BunnieBugs

02-26-2003, 01:05 AM

Daisy, I think Huck looks darling with that dark, curly hair! Really made me grin, and I'm not sure, but I may actually have said, "awww!" out loud. :rolleyes: :D

Just and interesting thing I noticed tonight: I was checking on my bandwidth on my image-hosting site, and I happened to notice that in the 24 hours since I posted that icon it's gotten 390 views. :cool: Now, I know an awful lot of those were by those of us who post, but, still... Did you ever get the feeling you were being watched? ;) :D

I was hoping to rent Huck Finn this week, but I'm having trouble finding a place that has the DVD (I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't remember exactly which store!). I could have gotten the VHS, but decided to hold out for the DVD based on what TG had to say about it.

I've actually not seen any of EW's movies earlier than The Ice Storm, so I'm looking forward to it.

deluby

02-26-2003, 02:13 AM

Whew, some catching up to do again! :o
Originally posted by ainon
Another little girls game that I was absolutely pathetic at was this skipping game, where the skip rope is made from rings of rubber bands and the rope is held higher and higher off the ground as the game progresses - does this game exist in the West too?Alright, finally a game that I'm familiar with! :D (I'm still trying to figure out the rules to "Jacks" http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/think.gif :p) And yep Narya, that's the "chinese skipping" game you were talking about, although I don't know where that name comes from. We just call it "elastic rope skipping" back home. :p

The Twitchy Eye:
Erendis, are these the twitchy eyes you were talking about?

When Frodo senses the EYE:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/twitchsense.jpg

When he sees the EYE:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/twitchsee.jpg

After he gets zapped by the EYE:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/twitchafter.jpg

"Dead? When? How?"
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/twitchdead1.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/twitchdead2.jpg

The Cheek Puff:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/cheekpuff1.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/cheekpuff2.jpg
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/cheekpuff3.jpg

Looking that the cheek puff cap, I can't help but giggle thinking that Frodo is eating a mouthful of cheese puffs. Maybe that's what he packed in his bag? :D

One more thing, I was at the bookstore tonight and saw the Apr. issue of Starlog. They had an interview with PJ and an article on Brad Dourif. I haven't seen the scans up anywhere yet so I typed out a few excerpts from the interview with PJ concerning TTT EE DVD and ROTK. From Starlog(Apr. issue)
PJ on TTT EE DVD:
"Many of the scenes that we cut out [of Two Towers] were basically character development and dialogue scenes. There's not much in the way of action."
<snip>
"But let me answer about the scenes [that will be edited back into The Two Towers], just to give you an idea. We shot some great stuff with Merry, Pippin and Treebeard. We're anticipating about another 160 computer shots just for the DVD, and there are already 800 in the film. That's because many of the scenes that we trimmed have either Gollum or Treebeard in them. So it's not quite as simple as saying 'Oh, let's just put some of the cuts back in.' It demands a huge amount of work, which is fine, and the studio is happy for us to do that. There's whimsical stuff with Treebeard that I like a lot, where he's reciting poetry and it's appallingly bad. There are scenes with Merry and Pippin drinking Ent draught. If you've read the book, you'll know that Ent draught actually makes them a little taller. So, being Hobbits, they quite like the idea that this sort of magical fluid makes them bigger. We shot that stuff, but it slowed the pace and wasn't relevant to the film's momentum, so we cut it. There are actually a couple of Gollum scenes that we're doing for the DVD. And you'll see the rope [provided by Galadriel in the gift-giving scene from the extended version of Fellowship]. We have some climbing down with the rope."

One scene that will not appear in the extended edition of The Two Towers is the much-discussed Gollum origin sequence, in which the audience discovers how Smeagol's obsession with the One Ring transformed him into Gollum. "That's going to be in the third film," Jackson reveals. "People have seen stills of that. One of the problems with New Line is that they don't really have much of a clue about what's in film one, two or three, and so they release stills [from all three films] to magazines. I've seen stills of the boat floating [and Serkis as Smeagol in the boat]. But that's going to be a scene in the third film."

PJ on ROTK:
The trilogy capper, the director promises, will be both uplifting and heartbreaking. "I guess it's more optimistic," he remarks. "I mean The Two Towers, by its nature, has to be the one where the pressure is applied and things go wrong and close in. And so the third film obviously has a resolution and a triumphant, sort of Biblical-size climactic action. But it also has incredible sadness. It has incredible sadness. I cry in three or four different places in the third film. It's my favorite of the three. Frodo and Sam are just extraordinary in the third film. They're just so brave."Finally some official confirmation of a few scenes that will be put back in EE DVD.

Daisy, that's a good one.
I might try my hands on the wig-merge too, but don't expect it. If I don't post the results, that means I failed. :o

ainon

02-26-2003, 07:38 AM

Narya, yes! That's it, exactly the same! But like deluby says, we call it "elastic rope skipping". :p 'Jacks' is the game known as "seven stones" here; since I sucked terribly at it I have no memory of what the rules for seven stones were. :rolleyes:

deluby - good to see you back, and of course you've got all these goodies! Thanks for the transcript, and cool, I now have cheekpuffs saved. LOL!

Daisy - good to see you delurked again. ;) And 'awwww'! Thank you!

While waiting for deluby's FrodoFinns, I'll share this one. Been sitting in my harddisk for some time. Don't know where I got it from. Bit blurry though after VillagePhotos automatically resized it.

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1682806.jpg

Ghyste

02-26-2003, 07:54 AM

Originally posted by Ainon
Narya, yes! That's it, exactly the same! But like deluby says, we call it "elastic rope skipping". Whereas we used to call it "French" skipping :D

erendis

02-26-2003, 09:13 AM

Oh, Deluby, thank you! So I'm not hallucinating. The screencaps don't do it justice becuase it seems that each frame has it's own twitch.From PJ:
One of the problems with New Line is that they don't really have much of a clue about what's in film one, two or three, and so they release stills [from all three films] to magazines. GRRRR NEW LINE! :mad: Really, what would it take for someone at New Line to say, hey, here's what we're officially releasing today; is this okay? And have someone like Fran or the editor take 4 seconds to approve it. On the other hand, there were so many changes in the middle, you have to wonder if PJ ok'd a shot only to change him mind later, then blame it on New Line. Naughty PJ. :p

My father has become interested in Elijah Wood after I bugged him constantly about FotR. He saw The Faculty and it was "better than he thought it would be." Then he rented Forever Young and encouraged me to rent it too because Elijah was "just DARLING" the whole time he was on screen. Dad repeated it several times -- juuuust DARLING."

When I see the pic of Elijah with the long Frodo hair and those -- err -- faded jeans, my thoughts stray to the Hugs Haven. I'm going to repost it there.

Where I grew up (northeast U.S.), we called it "Chinese Jump Rope" and it was popular enough that well-made elastic bungee ropes were available in any Wal-mart or K-mart. The basic chant: In Out Side Side On In Out, adding complex steps. The sequence ended with something called "Diamonds," when you grabbed the left rope with your right ankle, the right rope with your left ankle, and stood normally, forming a diamond with the rope. When you jumped up, the diamond released. You did this before each step of In Out Side Side On In Out. Most girls lost in Diamonds because it took a lot of vertical force and some skill to prevent your feet from catching on the diamond. Even those who succeeded would lose the game on On because the ropes shimmied badly as the diamond sprang back and girls missed the rope. If you got past Diamonds, only then did they raise the rope. I think I saw it happen once.

Geez, not only do I remember something I haven't done in 20 years, I even analyze it in typical Faculty fashion. :rolleyes:

Goldenberry

02-26-2003, 10:06 AM

This is kind of scary: Earlier this morning, at the end of a conference, I was picking my way through a maze of computer and video cords snaking across the lecture room floor, and was reminded of Chinese Jump Rope. Then I come here...:eek:

Last night, peaceweaver and I got together for a critical viewing of 'Ash Wednesday' and were both saying how much we wanted to hear the director's comments on the Huck Finn DVD. Now I'm not so sure!

We didn't bother with the director's commentary for AW. We figured it would probably be a bit on the pompous and self-important side.:o The film struck me as heavy-handed and too obvious in both its imagery and its message. The characters weren't well developed, particularly Elwood's Sean Sullivan. A better director could have made a better film from the same material. Still, it wasn't by far the worst film I've ever seen, and that includes some that have made it into the theaters.:rolleyes: Of course, Elwood looked good, so the time wasn't a total waste.;)

deluby, it's great to have you back--and bringing such impressive research too.:p Great Eye Twitch photo essay.:cool:

tgshaw

02-26-2003, 12:28 PM

We called it Chinese jump-rope, too, in Iowa. I think the "skip" or "jump" terms probably go with whatever word's used locally for the "regular" (non-Chinese?) kind. We "jumped rope," while in other places they "skipped rope"--kind of like the soda vs. pop split (Hi, Bridget--glad you're learning some proper English ;) ). The fact that girls in Asia didn't seem to put a "place" name on the game, while most in the U.S. did, makes me think it most likely did start in Asia (OTOH, I've never heard the "French connection" before). It was a brand new thing when we started playing it in the early to mid 1960's.

We (corporate "we"--I don't think I ever made one, personally) tied together the stretchy bands that are sold to weave together into potholders, I'd guess something like Narya's sewing elastics (except girls would go out and buy bags of the things for the sole purpose of making the jump ropes, so they didn't come out of Mom's sewing basket).

The playing methods sound about the same. I have to say I didn't do it much--if I jumped rope on the playground, I liked the "regular" kind better. One difference from what's been said is that for both Chinese and "regular" jump-rope we used a girl on each end--no stationary objects.

Interesting that, for me, jacks and jumping rope (and hopscotch--now that would be a bear to explain!), which were all specifically "girl" games, were solely playground games to me--i.e., during the noon break at school. I had a much better time playing with my friends in the neighborhood where we did things that involved a lot more running around and/or using a lot more imagination. And usually the boys and girls played together. Socially, school was a disaster for me, but, you know, we really had a good bunch of neighborhood kids--never a thought of talking someone down or excluding anyone.

The field hockey difference is interesting, too. In the U.S., it's not only considered a girls' sport, it's been most popular in expensive, private girls' schools--the kind that used to boast about turning out "ladies," an occupation that isn't called for quite so much these days :) . Of course, the males do have the "rights" to ice hockey here, and a lot of them start playing it on ponds, etc., while they're still kids, just like a "pick-up" basketball game. Maybe the guys play field hockey in warmer climates where you'd need a special building to have ice--that would sure make it hard for them to start playing ice hockey casually with their friends when they're young boys. (Does the evidence back up that theory?? :confused: )

------------------------

Gee, I feel a bit guilty for dragging this thread off-topic, but I have posted some on-topic stuff since then, too, so I don't take full responsibility :p !

Had a UPS package notice on my door when I got home last night, which usually means something from Amazon... so I've got Ash Wednesday (finally) and the DVD of The Ice Storm. Ice Storm doesn't have any commentary listed in the "extras," which is disappointing--I'd love to hear what Ang Lee would have to say about it. But it still has two advantages over the VHS--it's wide-screen and, of course, I can make screencaps from it :D !!

I'm looking forward to seeing Ash Wednesday, although I'm not expecting too much from it. Just to have something new!! Since I'd watched every Elijah Wood film I could get my hands on before FotR came out, the only "new" things I've seen since then have been Child in the Night and the Animated Movie that Shall Not Be Named. (Now, those of you who've tagged Black and White as the worst movie ever made... :eek: ...I have to assume you haven't been subjected to TT&T :eek: !)

My attitude going into Ash Wednesday is pretty much that it's the movie Elijah used to get his acting legs back under him after recovering from the main filming for LotR, so a small film with short shooting schedule and rather low profile was probably a good thing for him right then. I'll let him have one of those once in awhile :) . What I would find unforgivable--unless he's in some hidebound contract with Disney--is another one like... :eek: !

------------

ainon, I forgot to say how much I loved "If Geeks Ruled the Oscars"--I may have to change my sig again :) .

Eldalieva

02-26-2003, 01:17 PM

Still more OT:

All this talk about jumprope reminds me of the brief "double dutch" craze that went through my school and neighborhood when I was about 11? 12? Double dutch, for those of you who don't know, is a very elaborate, gymnastic method of jumping rope using two and sometimes three ropes at the same time. I'm pretty sure it originated in urban areas...I seem to recall a rap song named "Double Dutch" coming out around the same time, so the whole rap/breakdancing thing coincided with the rising popularity of double dutch. Now I was a klutzy kid, with the added stigma of being one of the only white girls in a class full of Latina girls who loved to disco and mambo and do all other kinds of physical stuff I just could not. Not to mention they all insisted on speaking Spanish around me so I never knew what was going on. When the whole double dutch thing came out, I remember that all I could think was, "Just what I needed...one MORE thing I can't do!"

Anyway...back on topic, I really admired Elijah's ability to fall down wounded in Huck Finn---I found that scene simply gut-wrenching. I simply cannot WAIT for RoTK!!

And WHAT is this animated movie?!?!?

PS: Erendis, I can't believe your dad thinks Elijah is "darling," but still thinks it would have been a good idea to drop poor "Bright Eyes" into the mountain, Ring and all!!! :eek: :p

peaceweaver

02-26-2003, 01:45 PM

Elda: we must have hung out on the same playgrounds, because Double Dutch was all the rage when I was a kid, too. :) Not that I was ever any good at it, either...

The mysterious animated film is The Adventures of Tom Thumb and Thumbelina. tg has watched it for all of us. :p (Me I rented it, just to *listen* to...:rolleyes: )

As Goldie reported, we watched Ash Wednesday last night. One review that I had read previously said that Ed Burns should have his Director's License revoked. Me I think he should have his Writer's License suspended. There was an awful lot of footage of Ed Burns walking down the streets of New York (the title of another of his 'auteur' films). Totally wasted footage; now if it had been Elwood walking down the streets...;) Many critics have commented that EW seems to have been miscast. There is some truth to that: he just doesn't look like an Irish tough! And the casting of Rosario Dawson as his wife is just ridiculous! :confused: Talk about no chemistry. Of course, EW and Rosario are only on screen together for about 10 seconds (in the dark, no less). But they have composited a 'wedding' photo that is one of the funniest things I have ever seen! It is *totally* cringeworthy. Note the height differential, too.

I found the film pretentious and ham-handed. All the principals run around with cross-shaped ashes on their foreheads, the wife's name is 'Grace'...hit me over the head with the symbolism again, Ed. :rolleyes: There is not a lot for Elwood to do in the film, except hide out and run from bad guys and look earnest. He sure looks good doing it though!

Maeglian

02-26-2003, 02:51 PM

Do anyone have a cap of that Ash Wednesday Wedding photo? Didn't they have a box for Elwood? :D
Thanks for the reviews, Goldie and Peaceweaver!

Erendis, your father is way cool, never mind the implant-the-Ring-and-drop-the-hobbit-into-the-fire theory. I loved the "Juuuust DARLING". :) Hope you don't mind that I adopt that expression, I liked it so much!?

Thank you for clearing up the "jacks" question. Not a game played around here. It's soccer, soccer all the way here, both for girls and boys. Field Hockey isn't played here either. Skipping elastics, however, was done a lot when I was a kid too, just in the way Narya explained it. It was great fun! Now if only Prim, Azalea or Viola can confirm that *they* skipped elastics too, I think we have covered the whole Faculty world? :cool:
We didn't have speech contests in school, though. Neither did we have spelling bees, nor debating contests..... (I know of the former thanks to Dan Quayle, of the latter thanks to "Thumbsucker" :p ) It strikes me how much my knowledge of the US school system or school activities has been impacted by those endless TV series and movies. Cheerleaders, football, those lockers to keep books in, homecoming, the prom, and graduation. Again and again. :p And this isn't even OT, because Elwood sure contributed his share to promoting the stereotypes of US High Schools in the Faculty.

Daisy, Bunnie and ainon: You've all provided such cute FinnFros! :) The one ainon posted; - that made me wonder when *hobbits* started smoking. (Anyone? Tg?) Would Frodo have started smoking at coming of age? I had a close look to see if Huck was carrying around a brace of coneys in ainon's pic, there.....but it's a couple of ducks, I think?

Talking of a brace of coneys, - That "If Geeks ruled the Oscars" nomination for cutest couple was just - DARLING, too!

And talking of geeks, did anyone think how Casey really is a Froshadowing in his own right? Not just the running from and fighting frightening monsters, and saving the world, but coming to school every day, knowing that once he gets off the bus he'll be tormented and harassed, and still doing it every day..... That takes a lot of Frodo-like dogged determination and strong but quiet courage, doesn't it? (Poor Casey - that look on his face when he gets off the bus in the opening scene, worried, fearful, hoping no-one will notice him. ) And he's inquisitive, curious and bright, too! Also there's another Froshadowing when he bends down and picks up that alien slug on the football field - he picks up something that could prove to be the "doom of mankind". :eek:

Guess I've rambled on more than enough, I should stop while I'm still On Topic - still I mustn't forget to thank Deluby: Great caps there! And the cheek puff picture is just so..... darling! :D (Now there are 2 different TTT scenes that will make me think of a hamster. :o :rolleyes: :) )

(((Luthiea)))

Edit:
I forgot that I need to gripe and moan just a little bit about this quote from the Starlog write-up that Deluby posted: "Many of the scenes that we cut out [of Two Towers] were basically character development and dialogue scenes. " :( Would that be Frodo and Faramir character development and dialogue, perhaps? Cut out in favour of those ....eh, Wargs?

mel headstrong

02-26-2003, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian

Edit:
I forgot that I need to gripe and moan just a little bit about this quote from the Starlog write-up that Deluby posted: :( Would that be Frodo and Faramir character development and dialogue, perhaps? Cut out in favour of those ....eh, Wargs?
I feel justified in my grumpiness. :p

And to be on topic, I hope that RotK doesn't cut the same amount of character development... somewhere in that year+ job there's acting that could have earned Elijah a youngest-ever Best Actor nomination, but I fear it's going to lie on a cutting room floor, or at best, be found on SE DVDs. :(

Mel

Hobmom

02-26-2003, 05:13 PM

Is this the Ash Wednesday wedding pic you want, Maeg?
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Ashwedding.jpg

Maeglian

02-26-2003, 05:36 PM

The hour is later than I'd like :rolleyes: , and I must get myself off to bed. But it's actually already Thursday here, and that means before I log off, I get to say:

Happy birthday, BunnieBugs !!!

:) :) :) :) :)

Hobmom, yes, thank you!!
Uhm, well, not the best suit I've ever seen him wear..... But I think they found a box for him after all? Or - did they just composite his face onto the picture of someone else? It almost looks that way........

deluby

02-26-2003, 05:47 PM

OK ladies, here's my little Huck-Fro Wig Merging Project :p:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro01.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro02.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro03a.jpg+http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro03b.jpg
=http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro03.jpg

I think the results turn out ok, not terribly bad, right? http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/shy.gif
The first one is probably the classic fro pose.
The second one is a bit off methinks.
I put the two original pics with the third one because the end result really fascinates me. It look just like Fro and IMHO it probably could pass as one of the screencaps from that envelope scene. I mean the two faces just blend in completely especially the eyes. The uncanny resemblance freaked me out a little bit when I was working on it, :eek: then I realized:"wait, they are the same person." :o :rolleyes:
*Sigh* EW doesn't age, must be an elf.

Edit:
Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs!!!!

RE: that Ash Wednesday wedding pic, since I haven't seen the film, I'm thinking wouldn't it feel weird when the audience see them actually together in the film but he's shorter than her, unlike the wedding photo suggested? Or did they have a box for EW when doing all his scenes with Rosario Dawson? :rolleyes:

tgshaw

02-26-2003, 06:17 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
Daisy, Bunnie and ainon: You've all provided such cute FinnFros! :) The one ainon posted; - that made me wonder when *hobbits* started smoking. (Anyone? Tg?) Would Frodo have started smoking at coming of age?
Maeg--when I read the first part of your question (when did hobbits start smoking), I thought, "Ah-ha, I know where to look that up," but I was thinking historically, as in "When did hobbits invent smoking?" (Which, of course, they did! ;) ). But I don't recall ever seeing any information about the age an individual (male) hobbit would have started smoking. I suppose about the same time he would have started drinking ale :p . (Actually, in Tolkien's mind it was probably whatever age that would have happened in Edwardian England--anyone know when that would have been?)

Now, there's one thing I've mentioned in two or three lit threads over the last couple of years, waiting for someone to point to something in the book that I've missed, but IMHO one of the extremely interesting things about Frodo is that he's the one male-hobbit-major-character who's never mentioned smoking--or carrying a pipe, or a tobacco pouch. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean he didn't smoke--it might just not have been mentioned. But it seems a strange thing for Tolkien to omit without a reason for it, since he brings it up quite naturally for all the others. Maybe a subtle way to set Frodo a bit apart from the other hobbits? Not quite as "earthy" as the others? A bit of the "fairy blood" showing through?

BTW--Do I sense a new entry for the glossary: FinnFro :) ?

And talking of geeks, did anyone think how Casey really is a Froshadowing in his own right? Not just the running from and fighting frightening monsters, and saving the world, but coming to school every day, knowing that once he gets off the bus he'll be tormented and harassed, and still doing it every day..... That takes a lot of Frodo-like dogged determination and strong but quiet courage, doesn't it? (Poor Casey - that look on his face when he gets off the bus in the opening scene, worried, fearful, hoping no-one will notice him. ) And he's inquisitive, curious and bright, too! Also there's another Froshadowing when he bends down and picks up that alien slug on the football field - he picks up something that could prove to be the "doom of mankind".
Oh, yes, I totally agree--and when he's the only one left who can "do the job" he pulls out what he needs from within and gets on with it, in true hobbit fashion. That persistent courage of facing things every day (his father's a real help, too, eh :rolleyes: ?) is where the guts to face the crisis came from (IMVHO). The Faculty isn't one of my favorite EW movies (it's not bad--just not one of my top favorites), but Casey's definitely one of my favorite EW characters--in the sense of being someone I'd like to actually know.

Originally posted by Eldalieva
Anyway...back on topic, I really admired Elijah's ability to fall down wounded in Huck Finn---I found that scene simply gut-wrenching. I simply cannot WAIT for RoTK!!
The moment that always stops my breathing is when he gets shot in the back--It's one of those moments when it's hard to remember EW's acting because... how do you act body motion like that, just exactly as it would be in the real case (wish the director & editor had talked about that during the scene :mad: -- well, maybe not... if I learned they threw some kind of projectile at him so he knew when/where/how to react I think I'd be :mad: :mad: ). But that moment gives me the same reaction I get when his body moves with the sword when the WiKi is pulling it out of Frodo--it just doesn't seem like a reaction that could be "faked." (And with the better picture on the DVD, I see there's more blood than I'd realized--on Jim's hand, etc.)

--But Goldie & peaceweaver, don't let my irritation with the director keep you from the Huck Finn commentary. It really is worth listening to--including a fair amount of talk about Elijah's acting (all of it very positive).

----------------

Mel--If NewLine, PJ, and everyone who has any say in the matter doesn't do right by Elwood in RotK... [Well, I don't know what then... I'd threaten to never go to another Austin Powers movie, but since I avoid them like the plague already that wouldn't be much of a threat... But I will be totally steamed--which is a state I don't get into very often.]

One thing the Huck Finn director said that I did like hearing was his admission that Elijah was responsible for his career going anywhere. He was just out of film school when he directed Huck Finn, and he said if the main actor in that movie had been sub-par it might have been the end of his career. I hope NewLine et al. realize that the same's true for them, and stop with any "It's our ball so we'll play the way we want to," nonsense.

---------------

Well, now it's home to watch Ash Wednesday... I could wait til next week and watch it for the first time actually on Ash Wednesday... nah. :p It'll probably take me a couple of viewings to know when things "pop up," so I won't promise to be posting any wedding pictures tomorrow, but I'll see what I can do. :)

Edit: Yikes! The whole page changed while I was posting. I see Hobmom's already supplied the wedding photo. I haven't read any of the posts yet, just noticed the plethora of pics!!

(((Faculty)))

Eldalieva

02-26-2003, 07:08 PM

TG, I don't think they would have thrown something at Elijah to make him react like that...at least I HOPE they wouldn't! Then again, they DID let him get picked up by his head! It really is an incredible acting moment, especially for a ten-year-old! And I'm glad you mentioned the Weathertop scene...I've also always noticed the way his body follows the sword as it's pulled out, and wondered "how did he DO that?" It's astounding to thing that that was PURE acting...there was no sword there, nothing there, until the special effects department added it in.

Now that I've become obsessed with the Froshadowing in Huck Finn, I also have to comment on the mock sword-fighting scene he has with Jim on the raft. In the Harem now, they were just talking about how they would have liked to see a stronger Frodo, how he shouldn't have dropped his sword at Weathertop, etc.

I thought of Elijah, saying that in pre-production for FoTR, he (and the other hobbits) trained at swordfighting for two weeks, but then when he actually DREW his sword, the only thing he got to do with it was drop it! When I saw 10-year-old Elijah so gracefully swashbuckling with Jim, I again thought it was a dreadful shame that PJ hasn't given Elijah more opportunities to shine.

Daisy, Bunny, Ainon and Deluby...love all the little FinnFros! Deluby, I think your first one is my favorite!

ainon

02-27-2003, 12:34 AM

Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs!

deluby :k ooh, those are precious! First one is best, but I can appreciate the surreal effect of the third! LOL

I second what tg said about the Huck Finn commentary. It's a great listen, they did (and do) seem to adore Elijah, and the jokes are funny. Just that they skirt that line between what's nice and not so nice.

I was hoping the director and editor would talk about the 'shooting' too, but I guess in a sense that's pretty run-of-the-mill acting. For a kid like Elijah, I mean. :) The part that gets me is when he collapsed after having run as far as he could, and the way he says, "No, they'll catch you. They'll lynch you." :(

Agree with you, Maeg, about Casey. And about American TV being the window to all things American. We have hopscotch here too, and I saw that Dutch Double thingy. As for field hockey - well it's an international event at the Olympics, IIRC. It was a game that M'sians won over a group of big Western folk at the Commonwealth Games and there was a lot of celebrating that! :D Ice hockey could theoretically be played here now, of course (in the old days ice wouldn't have existed here. probably the first generation to ever see ice would be those richer folks who first encountered the electric freezer) but I don't know if it's the kind of thing that anyone would want to go for. Not many here understand what American Football is all about either. For a game that requires great machoism, rugby seems to be it. And those guys don't use padding. :p

Originally posted by Eldalieva
I thought of Elijah, saying that in pre-production for FoTR, he (and the other hobbits) trained at swordfighting for two weeks, but then when he actually DREW his sword, the only thing he got to do with it was drop it!

LOL! I think that's in context of the Weathertop scenes being among the first that were filmed. Elijah got his chance to swing that sword around once they reached Moria so I don't know if he's still complaining. ;)

Prim

02-27-2003, 01:51 AM

Now if only Prim, Azalea or Viola can confirm that *they* skipped elastics too, I think we have covered the whole Faculty world?

Yup. Called "jumpy". Yes- we are very innovative down here in the southern hemisphere...:p

Not many here understand what American Football is all about either. For a game that requires great machoism, rugby seems to be it. And those guys don't use padding.
ditto. Its a national obssession here. And their shorts are so veeerrryyy short!! :D
Field hockey starting to be a men's game now. Used to be seen as a women's sport.

Lutheia- the job is going well but it takes up so much time. Unreasonable employers!!!

the marriage photo : OMG. :eek:. It is my unprofessional opinion that they have probably pasted EWs head onto another man , presumably to keep the arm length in sync with the jacket length and shoulder width. But they seem to have overlooked the minor problem, thusly, of his head being too small for everything else!!! I think I could have done a better job with scissors and paste.:rolleyes:

tgshaw

02-27-2003, 08:30 AM

Now that it's Thursday morning here, I can add my Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs!!

Deluby, as everyone else has said, the first FinnFro is darling. He looks so young in that picture, almost like little toddler Frodo.

And speaking of toddlers, check out the cute nose and the l-o-n-g eyelashes on the little boy who plays Elijah's son in Ash Wednesday. They got one bit of casting right, anyway :) .

Originally posted by Prim
But they seem to have overlooked the minor problem, thusly, of his head being too small for everything else!!! I think I could have done a better job with scissors and paste.:rolleyes:
Yeah--even if they didn't have a computer around, they could have used a copy machine with an "enlarge" function for the head :rolleyes: . I know it's a low-budget movie, but getting the head to match the body shouldn't have taken a huge special effects budget.

As far as Elijah/Rosario height-wise in the rest of the movie, as has been said they're not together very much at all, and it's in the dark--they're also not quite next to each other, so he has to lean forward towards her. There's really no way to judge their relative heights from that scene. The only problem--for viewers who pay attention to such things--is that throughout the whole movie we see a lot of Ed with Rosario and Ed with Elijah; anyone who does a bit of extrapolating can tell there's something not matching up. Now, of course, a really radical :rolleyes: solution to the "problem" would be to decide that there's nothing wrong with the woman being the taller person in the couple--even in the wedding photo :eek: . But I guess Ed thought the movie-going public wasn't quite ready to accept that. [Do I need another :rolleyes: there?]

---------

Please think of the following AW screencaps as the "early results"--you know, when the newspeople say, "The early results from precinct 4 show A leading B by 5%." I'm just trying to get them up quickly (after watching the movie last night), and am hoping someone with better knowledge/program/computer/whatever can improve on them. This quality seems to be about the limit for me and, as you can tell, it's not very good. This is for caps of shots that are taken in the dark--the ones taken in daylight look fine, but as soon as I try to lighten/brighten up the picture everything dissolves into pixelated cubism, especially close-ups. And, of course, the two I want to post are close-ups taken in the dark.

So, I know the topic has been brought up as far as what to call a "reverse Froshadowing"--has anyone come up with a suggestion? Whatever you call them, here are a couple from AW:

The first one is so unclear that I didn't even match up a Frodo pic with it, but from what I can see I think there may very well be a Frodo-like facial expression hiding in there, and I just had to get something with that hood. I LOL when he put on that jacket, because Ed helped him get it around his shoulders, almost like Gandalf helping Frodo on with his cloak before they leave Bag End. The connection I'm thinking of for this shot is the hooded Frodo scenes added in the SE on Caradhras or--maybe even more likely--upon arriving at Moria. I am hoping someone can get a better version of this:

[Next day edit: I took this pic down to save server room, as I did manage to get a slightly better one--see next page.]

Here's one that, even though it's not very good, I think is clear enough to make out the Fro-post?-shadowing (but if someone can get a better version, it would be lovely :) ). It's another first-moment-of-recognition shot, so we've seen an expression like this on that kind of occasion in Huck Finn, Fellowship, and AW. A pattern here, perhaps :p ?

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/outtakes/capcrop2763-85.jpg

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap3309-bright.jpg

Must stop now, so will have to give comments on AW later. In the meantime, what are the thoughts on the "spoiler" condition for AW? A spoiler warning if we're going to say something that could give away part of the story? (I stayed away from that in this post, but will definitely have some later.)

Elevensies

02-27-2003, 08:59 AM

Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs! :)

Hope your day is Lijah-riffic! sorry... :p

shilohmm

02-27-2003, 09:23 AM

Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs!

Yesterday was my eldest's birthday - I still haven't made her a cake! :o Hope someone does better by Bunnie!

I don't remember anyone playing jacks or Chinese jumprope (or if that's what it was called) as a kid, but I was pretty oblivious. I do remember I couldn't get my act together on regular jump-roping, where two girls would hold the ends and you had to time your entrance, which frustrated me, and I remember liking hopscotch, even though I could never remember the rules. But I was pretty oblivious, so that doesn't mean those weren't done.

Mostly I remember dodgeball; that was the big game at my school. I spent most of my time on the swings or the monkey bars, myself, or playing games that we made up as we went along. I've never been much for structure. :p

Baseball was popular, too; I liked that when it was just the neighbor kids because I was the permanent pitcher and didn't have to sweat rules or any of that, but I hated it in school because you had to pitch underhand and I couldn't do that.

Way back to the earlier discussion on whether EW looks Greek - there's a Greek "funeral painting" I've seen that looks a lot like EW; large eyes (brown, though), straight narrow nose, however I don't think there's a cleft chin. I need to go looking for that - I found an index of those paintings somewhere when getting an "Egypt" unit going for the kids, but none of the links led anywhere, mutter mutter.

deluby,
That last pic is spooky, isn't it? The kids had Huck Finn on the other day in the wrong format, where Huck was stretched a bit, top to bottom, and I thought EW looked much more like his grown up self, it was kind of startling.

I want to know what they did to the guy's hand in the Ash Wednesday wedding pic - it's the same color as his jacket!

I still haven't listened to Richard's commentary on FOTR. I've only seen TTT three times. I really need to get my act together.

That's disappointing that there are no commentary tracks to the Ice Storm DVD. I'd like a commentary track on the Faculty, for some reason. I don't really love the movie, but I do love Casey, and, I dunno, I'd just like a commentary track...

Nice to see peaceweaver's name back. I always liked it, but especially since she explained the meaning.

Whoops, here's hubby with middle daughter - she fell off her sister's bunk bed onto the radiator this morning and split her lip badly enough to need three stitches. They want me to "keep it clean and dry" - and they gave her a sucker. What's wrong with this picture? :rolleyes: :p

Gots to go.

Sheryl

Tathar

02-27-2003, 10:15 AM

Happy birthday, BunnieBugs!

Deluby, that first pic of FroFinn, especially, is great -- it always amazes me how many Froshadowings there are in Huck Finn. Especially, as everyone else has mentioned, the scene where he gets shot, and his body moves as if he really did -- just as baffling as the Weathertop scene in FotR. How does he DO that?!

Way back to the earlier discussion on whether EW looks Greek - there's a Greek "funeral painting" I've seen that looks a lot like EW; large eyes (brown, though), straight narrow nose, however I don't think there's a cleft chin.

Oh yes, shilohmm, you must try to find that! I saw a painting from an Roman villa (in Pompeii, I believe) of a young man who I thought looked a bit like Elijah -- the nost and eyes, at least, though the eyes were brown. You know, only at the Faculty have I found others who share my thought that Elijah looks Greek! ;)

I'm sure this has been said before, but I also think he looks like Michelangelo's David, especially in profile and eyes. I used to have a pic of David's profile, but I don't know what happened to it. I was going to compare it to EW's. :( Oh well...no reason to repeat what's probably already done in the Faculty, is there? :rolleyes:

One more question for everyone: can anyone label Elijah's hair a specific color? His bio on TORN says that he has brown, but in Huck Finn, it looks auburn to me, and I'd say that now it's a kind of darker shade of that. Any other guesses? :D

peaceweaver

02-27-2003, 12:06 PM

First things first:

HAPPY BIRTHDAY BUNNIE BUGS!

many happy returns of the day! :)

All the talk of Huck Finn led me to check my just arrived monthly TV Guide: and guess what? The Adventures of Huck Finn is going to be broadcast on the Hallmark Channel (here in the states) on March 21 at 8 pm central, and March 22 at 9 am central. :cool:

What is more, Child in the Night is scheduled to be broadcast on the Lifetime channel on March 10 at 2 pm central. Even more :cool:

As always check your local listings!

Re: the Ash Wednesday wedding photo: that is perhaps the worst cut and paste job I have ever seen. :p It looks like they pasted *both* heads on the bodies.

Hmmm: trying to think of a term for after-shadowings...

tgshaw

02-27-2003, 12:24 PM

Originally posted by Tathar
How does he DO that?!
Ah, yes... The Faculty mantra :p . As long as that question remains unanswered, we have a reason for existence--and since Elijah keeps adding new moments that ask that question, we could be around for a long, long time :) .

I'm sure this has been said before, but I also think he looks like Michelangelo's David, especially in profile and eyes. I used to have a pic of David's profile, but I don't know what happened to it. I was going to compare it to EW's. :( Oh well...no reason to repeat what's probably already done in the Faculty, is there? :rolleyes:
There was a discussion here awhile back about whether some pics of Frodo belonged in a Caravaggio painting. I'm not sure I quite understood it, but wonder if the following might be an example of that--or would this be one of the Dutch masters :confused: ?
http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/Fellowship/6b3d7cb0.jpg

One more question for everyone: can anyone label Elijah's hair a specific color? His bio on TORN says that he has brown, but in Huck Finn, it looks auburn to me, and I'd say that now it's a kind of darker shade of that. Any other guesses? :D
Like anything else that has a "spectrum," IMO it's hard to draw hard-and-fast lines between hair colors. If I were going to label Elijah's, I'd stick with brown, although I agree that when the light hits it just right there can be hints of red. And a lot of people who start out with light brown hair have it darken naturally as they get older.

Edit: Must have simulposted with peaceweaver--just the person whose opinion I especially wanted to get on the artwork question. Are you still around :) ?

Flourish

02-27-2003, 12:40 PM

It looks more Caravaggio to me--it has more emotional content than I usually associate with the so-called Dutch masters. But it could even be a Goya, you know...;)

http://www.imageone.com/goya/self.gif

peaceweaver

02-27-2003, 12:58 PM

Flourish has it right. The screencap of firelight Fro is almost a quote from a gorgeous (it goes without saying, right? ;) ) painting by Caravaggio of a Lute player. The Caravaggio I'm thinking of is at the Hermitage in St. Petersburg. (oops, almost said Leningrad!)

If I can find a legal link, I will post the picture I am thinking of.

Edit: try this link.
http://www.kfki.hu/~arthp/html/c/caravagg/01/092lute.html

Bridget Chubb

02-27-2003, 03:03 PM

Happy Birthday, Bunnie!!!:)

Originally posted by tgshaw
(Hi, Bridget--glad you're learning some proper English ;) ).

You crazy Nebraskans...:p

:D

Goldenberry

02-27-2003, 03:44 PM

Happy Birthday, BunnieBugs!

Somewhere on my computer at work I have saved a side-by-side photo comparison of Michelangelo's David (just the head;) ) and a Frolijah pic, one of the shots of him in the tree while he and Sam are camping and he hears the elves singing. The resemblance is uncanny, except that Frolijah looks better.:p

Unfortunately I can't seem to post any of the saved images, for reasons I don't have time to figure out at the moment. :(

Maeglian

02-27-2003, 04:42 PM

Prim, Sheryl, I agree with you on that wedding photo. It's soooo poorly done; - I think they pasted both the actors' faces on a wedding picture of a black couple? Poor Ed Burns, he probably had *no* idea the props for his low-budget film about redemption would be scrutinized to such an extent, all because of Elijah Wood. :D

Tg, I haven't seen AW and it's not totally certain I'll get to see it either...... but personally I don't mind spoilery pics and comments, I've read everything posted here about the film so far. In case there are others who'd rather not be spoiled, though, perhaps it's fair to give a small spoiler warning?
I'm looking forward to more pics and comments about AW!!! :)

((((Sheryl))))

Deluby, wonderful young-Fros! Especially the first one is amazing! :) Ed Burns should have contacted you in order to get that wedding phote made, methinks.

Tathar, Flourish, Goldenberry, and others, the art discussion is very fascinating and interesting! Hope someone can find that greek painting?
When I was in London for the Hoot, I visited the National Gallery briefly and couldn't help noticing that quite a lot of the Renaissance Angels and Saints had a curly-haired, pale and striking Frolijah resemblance. There was especially an angel in a painting by the Italian Guido Reni, who painted in the first half of the 1600s. I searched for that painting and instead came across this one, of Christ and St. John the Baptist...... Somehow Reni's St. John bears a certain resemblance to you- know-who, doesn't he?

http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/largeImage?workNumber=NG191&collectionSection=work

Pearl

02-27-2003, 05:04 PM

Good gracious, he does and all! :)

Lovely painting ... but is that supposed to be Christ on the left? :confused: I'm sorry, but He looks like a girl. :eek: Bear with me, I'm a devout Christian and can have quite strong opinios on what images of Jesus I'm comfortable with or rather which resonate with me. I'm not very keen on 'feminised' images of Christ. And this is wildly off-topic ...

Back to Renaissance Frolijah
My sister commented on how the cinematography in LOTR reminded her of PreRaphaelite paintings. :) OK, different art period, but the Preraphaelites were surely inspired in some respects by Renaissance sources ...

I also have a lovely poster of EJW as Frodo which Ele gave me at the Vermont Hoot last summer -- :) -- and my sister greatly admired it. She agreed with me that Elijah Wood playing Frodo has a very 'Renaissance' quality to his appearance :)

And get this guy's profile, he's very Frolijah-y, isn't he? :)
http://www.topofart.com/cot01.htm

(((Maeglian))) So glad you got to pop into the National Gallery. It's awesome, isn't it? :)

tgshaw

02-27-2003, 05:04 PM

Thanks, Flourish and peaceweaver :) . The write-up at the link to the lute player painting was interesting, too--androgeny has been discussed here before. I'd labeled that screencap as a possible Caravaggio moment on my website, but put a question mark after it 'cause I wasn't sure. I have an avatar made from it, too (of course), that I've been saving for an upcoming special occasion ;) , so I'm glad there was a chance to bring it up...

An "artsy" edit to catch up with the posts that came while I was posting:

From Maeg:
When I was in London for the Hoot, I visited the National Gallery briefly and couldn't help noticing that quite a lot of the Renaissance Angels and Saints had a curly-haired, pale and striking Frolijah resemblance. There was especially an angel in a painting by the Italian Guido Reni, who painted in the first half of the 1600s. I searched for that painting and instead came across this one, of Christ and St. John the Baptist...... Somehow Reni's St. John bears a certain resemblance to you- know-who, doesn't he?
Edit: I'd posted a question here as to whether that was St. John the Baptist, or possibly St. John the Evangelist--but I just peeked back and saw his staff and clothing--definitely John the Baptist. Sorry for any head-scratching I might have caused :o .

And regarding the feminine-looking Jesus in the painting--perhaps it fits with the info posted with the painting of the lute player that peaceweaver linked to: that many Renaissance artists were intrigued with androgeny and often used it in their work?

---------

Some on Ash Wednesday, hopefully without spoilers (since the fact that Elijah and Rosario are together in just one scene has already been "spilled" :) ):

To say something positive about Ash Wednesday, I do like the one scene where Elijah and Rosario are together. IMHO, they're the only two people in the movie who possess more than one facial expression :rolleyes: .* In fact, I liked that scene enough that I can see sticking the DVD back in the player just to rewatch that little bit. There's also some interesting lighting there because they're in a moving vehicle and as it passes streetlights there's a light/dark change that adds to the mood, I think. Of course, that's a lot more evident in slow motion... I have an insane number of screencaps from that scene, because I wanted to capture the light effect as well as the emotions--IMHO, Grace's entire story gets played out on Rosario's face during that scene (without her saying a word--why does that sound familiar? :) ). I can't say whether they're cast well together as far as height, age, etc., but--to me, anyway--they "felt good" as a couple when they had the chance.

Everything between them made me like Elijah's Sean more, too. Just the fact that he married a Hispanic when he comes from a family where at least some members use derogatory terms for them, makes him come across as a somewhat stronger person, I think, than he would have otherwise. And Sean was so sensitive to Grace's confusion (what a guy :p ) even though he'd been so excited about getting back together with her.

Hey, one good scene is something positive, isn't it :cool: ?

One blurb on the cover called the movie a "true to life crime drama"--and, yes, I suppose crime, like any other occupation, has its long stretches of boredom. And it's also true to life that one person will say the same thing to another person over and over and over and... but I'd rather not spend precious screen time listening to each repetition of it. (And I'll go along with Goldie and pw in having seen quite enough of Ed Burns walking down the street to last me awhile.)

*I do have to take one statement back--Francis' (Ed's) whacked-out former girlfriend also has more than one facial expression (and I covet her sparkly black sweater :p ). So does the hit man from Ireland--he's completely detestable (just as he's supposed to be), but he is an individual.

--And one little touch I thought was rather humorous was that everybody was drinking at all times, but I don't remember seeing anyone eat a bite of solid food (I may have missed something)--Ash Wednesday's a fast day, of course... (I noticed there was a "product placement coordinator" or similar phrase in the credits--I think we must have had big deals with parts of the "alcoholic beverage industry.")

And a bit on Ash Wednesday with possible spoilers

I want to go back and check one thing before I say too much about overbearing religious symbolism--if I'm remembering it correctly, it could add another layer... But (dark humor ahead) it wasn't as overbearing as it could have been, y'know--they could have had life go on for another 40 days and set that last scene on Good Friday (as if the body position isn't obvious enough)!!

Having talked about some stylistic problems, I have to say that IMVHO the plot was absolutely stupid. I don't know any other word for it. Either every single character was stupid, or... well, maybe I shouldn't go there :mad: ... About halfway through I just had to stop my brain from saying, "Why did he do it that way?" and "Why didn't they do that?" etc., etc. Beginning with the decisions that had been made three years earlier (and I don't mean Sean's actions), and continuing all the way through the last scene, everyone just did stupid things! At almost every point in the story, things could have turned out differently if someone had had common sense. It reminded me of Black and White in that way--but in Black and White I usually understood [i]why someone was trapped in a tragic situation, while in Ash Wednesday I usually didn't.

Anyway, maybe I'll go home and watch that scene in the van again :) . To get a little more specific than I was in the non-spoiler section, I was afraid Sean was going to jump into the van and immediately start snogging Grace--using whatever definition of "snogging" anyone wants. He'd had the advantage of knowing he was alive (uh, yeah...) and had been so insistent and excited about getting back with her that I thought he might not be able to hold himself back. But when they ended the scene without a single kiss, it certainly added to my appreciation of the character.

End of Ash Wednesday spoilers

Flourish

02-27-2003, 05:14 PM

Nice match-up, Peaceweaver!:)

BunnieBugs

02-27-2003, 05:24 PM

Okay, I'm officially floored. I finally got a chance to check in here today, and couldn't believe all the lovely birthday wishes! :cool: Thank you so much! I'm having a lovely but very busy birthday, and you all have been busy and I'm way behind... Maybe I'll have time to catch up tomorrow, but I doubt it.

(I actually don't even know how you find out about birthdays... sorta clueless... is there a master list somewhere? Or a notification system? I never know about a birthday until someone else posts it...)

Meanwhile, Elevensies, don't apologize for wishing me a Lijah-riffic day! What could be better? And I won't tell you how a friend of mine took a Leno "tattoo" screencap and substituted my name for said tattoo. BWAHAAHAAA! :rolleyes: And I also won't mention how it tickled me pink, either. Shhhh! :D

Thanks, everyone!

Okay, as you were...

Tathar

02-27-2003, 05:34 PM

Just a quick post to give y'all a link to another pic (now who do you think this young fellow resembles? Hmmmm...)

http://www.abcgallery.com/M/michelangelo/michelangelo27.html

Wow, amazing how a topic catches fire like that, isn't it? Well, great minds think alike (then again, so do not-so-great ones...:rolleyes: ), and any opportunity to discuss art is enjoyable, for me at least. :)

tgshaw

02-27-2003, 05:44 PM

BB... and anyone else who's wondering--go to the top right-hand corner of the page and click on "calendar" (It took me over a year at Imladris to figure that out--and even then I think someone told me :o ). Or, if you go to the main forum page and look at the bottom, it will tell you whose birthday it is that day (but with the calendar, you can peek ahead ;) ).

Pearl--I forgot to mention this when you brought up the pre-Raphaelites: When I first saw movie-Galadriel, she struck me as being taken directly from that school of art, and I later read a quote from one of the design people saying that was exactly their idea for the character. (And, yes, that profile resemblance is uncanny. Hmmm... pointy little nose, there. Wonder what shape his nostrils are :eek: :D .)

Prim

02-27-2003, 11:18 PM

Ok, its 6pm here and so must be around about early am in the USA so a big southern hemisphere Happy Birthday to peaceweaver . :)

I keep thinking EW looks greek simply because of the remarkably straight nose. Aquiline? Is that the word? Must go check....now if only I could remember where I put my dictionary.

Sheryl is BAAACCCKKKK!!!!!!!:eek: Hope your sweetie is ok.

tgshaw

02-28-2003, 08:04 AM

Happy Birthday, Peaceweaver!! So glad you got your proper name back in time for everyone's birthday greetings. [And in case you didn't pick it up from the little ;) 's yesterday, this is the special occasion I was saving Caravaggio Frodo for, so that discussion came in the nick of time :) .]

I managed to get a slightly better hooded Sean screencap last night, basically because his face is visible (if barely) without lightening the pic so I could leave it in its original state. The hooded Fro I've put with it is flipped, to match the angle (still, if anyone else can get better ones--please do):

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap1006-85-rev.jpg http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap3251-crop.jpg

More Ash Wednesday Spoiler Comments

I rewatched the van scene last night, as well as just enough of two other scenes to check my "religious symbolism" suspicions--

Have to correct one thing I said yesterday. It's hard to see, but I guess Sean does kiss Grace on the cheek when he first gets into the van. [And this doesn't really count as a "kiss" in the context of my original statement, but I think the act of Sean kissing his son's hand--as well as the way he does it (of course)--is simply beautiful.] IMHO, though, the kiss on Grace's cheek fits in with the rest of the scene. I think he does jump into the van ready for a full-fledged reunion, but he slows down as he picks up Grace's "vibes," which, of course, just makes him that much more of a sensitive guy :) . After looking at that scene frame-by-frame, it sure seems short in real time.

And I was right on the religious symbolism I went back to check--except that one bit of it was worse than I thought :rolleyes: : Except for Sean (who, of course, would have had a hard time getting to church), everyone on "our side" has received ashes while no one on the "other side" has. As far as I can tell--and this is what I went back to check--this is true down to every individual involved, if you consider the policemen part of the "other side" (which I think would fit since he's trying to catch Sean). And I suppose you could even say Sean isn't on either side, in a way, but caught in the middle.

Besides the policeman, the other person I had to go back and look at again was the "plant" who's really on "our side" but seems to be on the "other side." (I'm not using "good" and "bad" here, as IMHO that's pretty questionable.) This is the bit that really made me :rolleyes: -- We never see his forehead! He keeps that cap pulled over it the whole time. So we never really know which side he's on... ooohh, so subtle ;) . Just as I typed that, I realized I didn't go back and look at him in the earlier parts of the movie, just the scene with the shootout in the bar, so he might have his cap off in an earlier scene. I can't check that til tonight (12 hours or so from now). But if I were a betting person, I'd put a few bucks on the side of him never having that cap off. (And, whichever "side" they're on, paid mercenaries don't have ashes.)

I can live with that part of the symbolism--it's the very act of setting all the action on Ash Wednesday (which is one of the stupidities carried out, but that's another discussion) that's heavy handed. Once you do that, the ashes are a given. Even Whitey, who's probably the least good guy on "our side," is traditionally Irish to the point of being a stereotype, so it fits with his character that he'd go to church, receive ashes as a sign of repentence, and then not think twice about going out and arranging/ordering a murder. So, once the Ash Wednesday setting is established, IMHO the symbolism of the ashes themselves would fit pretty accurately with real life and the way these specific characters were written.

But the crucifixion at the end made me want to punch the screen. The taking on of someone else's "sins" by putting on Sean's coat and cap was an interesting little bit, and would have gotten the point across without the sledgehammer of the body position. (But, of course, none of that would have been necessary if everyone [except Grace!] hadn't been so stupid the entire time!!)

As someone said regarding the wedding photo (which, of course, is only visible for a moment in the movie)--poor Ed Burns probably never expected to have his little movie so closely scrutinized! Ah-hah! No one expects The Faculty! [with apologies to all Monty Python members, living and dead :o ] He might be glad someone actually picked up his symbolism, though, even if we consider it over the top.

As I've been thinking about all the little niggling things that add up to make the plot unbelievable for me, I've wondered if this isn't something that at least partially comes from having only yourself as your critic. Ed Burns financed the movie, wrote it, directed it, and played the lead role. He certainly had assistants, but I wonder if there was anyone in a position to say, "Y'know, Ed, that's really stupid," and have Ed pay attention.

End of Ash Wednesday spoiler comments

I've attached a slightly spoilerish AW screencap so anyone who wants can avoid it. I don't think it spoils the plot at all, just some of the look of the scene. I picked it because it fits in with the "profile" postings. Might as well have an example of the real thing handy for comparisons ;) :

Maeglian

02-28-2003, 09:06 AM

Happy birthday, peaceweaver !!! :) :) :)

Tg, interesting info on Ash Wednesday! (I am totally unfamiliar with "receiving ashes" - is that a common Catholic ceremony?)

Spoilery request: Could you please explain the "crucifixion" symbolism - I do understand this is what happens to Ed Burns' character - but is it literally ( :eek: ) or figuratively speaking?

Pearl, yes, I *loved* the National Gallery!
Now, If I also could have had time to visit the Pre-Raphaelites in the Tate Gallery; - that would have been *awesome*. But, oh well, there will be another chance for that, I hope.

shilohmm

02-28-2003, 09:32 AM

Happy birthday, peaceweaver!

Tathar,
I did look for that painting yesterday, with no success. Although now I'm wondering if it was a Greek, or an Egyptian after Egypt was Hellenized, since that's where the paintings were most common. :p I'll go digging through my old Smithsonians today if I have the time, I'm pretty sure that's where I saw it initially.

peaceweaver,
Ooo, I would very much like a copy of Child of the Night. Thanks for the heads up! I'll have to see if I can pin down someone gullible with cable access to tape it for me.

Prim,
Yep, daughter is fine. She got a bit of a ding on the chin, too, and now that her lip isn't so swollen she looks like Queen Amidala with all that makeup on...

Maeglian,
When Catholics go to Mass the morning of Ash Wednesday the priest puts a cross of ashes on their foreheads. Lutherans do it, too, but our service is usually in the evening, so we don't wander the world with an ash cross all day. In our church, at any rate, the ashes are made from the palm branches the kids wave on Palm Sunday, or so I was told once. I'm not sure that's true any more, because they sometimes let the kids wander off with the branches, but there are vases of them up front that could be used I suppose.

I'm going to go off and feel sorry for myself because Maeglian not only got to a hoot - she got to the National Gallery! I haven't even gotten to the museums in Chicago for over a decade, although the kids are getting old enough now they'd probably enjoy the Museum of Science and Industry at least. I should set a Saturday aside for that sometime. Assuming we ever get the kitchen done. :rolleyes:

Sheryl

tgshaw

02-28-2003, 12:02 PM

More info on Ash Wednesday than anyone probably wants to know, but it may give some insight into some things in the movie:

For Catholics, ashes are given at Mass, so whatever time someone goes to Mass is when they receive ashes. That could be morning, evening, whatever, depending on that particular parish's schedule. And, yes, they are made out of the palms from the previous year's Palm Sunday (although it sounds as if we're a bit different from the Lutherans in the way that's done, too, if that's what Sheryl's describing).

And it's very, very common--there are a lot of people who go to Mass only on Christmas, Easter, and Ash Wednesday; even though going to church isn't part of their life throughout the year, they wouldn't think of not getting their ashes (I rather suspect that some of the people in the movie would be in that category, although I don't have any evidence...).

The priest (or deacon, or whoever's distributing the ashes) has two choices for what to say when the cross is made on each individual's forehead. I wasn't surprised that the movie used the more traditional one, which is, "Remember that you are dust and to dust you shall return," which certainly fits in the context of the movie. The other is "Repent and believe the Good News," which emphasizes that the ceremony is a lead-in into Lent (the 40+ days between Ash Wednesday and Easter, meant to be a time to look at your life and your relationship with God more deeply than you usually do, and to change whatever in your life you see needs changing--which is the "repent" part of it).

The idea of the ashes being connected with repentence comes from our Jewish heritage (a lot more of Catholic symbolism, etc., comes from our Jewish heritage than many Catholics realize), where there are stories of people sitting in ashes and/or piling ashes on their head to show their repentence. We just get the little cross--and it is a cross traced on the person's forehead, although it's usually done with such a small action that it comes out looking like a smudge. BTW, Ash Wednesday's next week (March 5). It varies each year depending on when Easter falls, which is all based on a lunar system that I won't get into here :eek: !

AW spoilers--definitely!

Maeg--The crucifixion symbolism is figurative, thank goodness!! Francis is killed by getting shot, but his body falls with his arms spread out in a crucifixion pose. The idea is that he's dying for his brother's sins, not his own (although IMVHO it would be a little easier to debate that in regard to Francis than it would be with Christ).

I'd put the following in the earlier Ash Wednesday info, but moved it here because it's rather spoilerish: I'm sure it's another little elbow nudge in the movie (y'know, just in case we're not getting it :rolleyes: ), that Francis has a bigger cross on his forehead than anyone else, so it actually looks like a cross (not just a smudge).

End of AW spoilers

Elevensies

02-28-2003, 12:19 PM

Happy Birthday, Vitaweaver! :p

Tathar

02-28-2003, 12:43 PM

Happy Birthday, peaceweaver!

tg, I read that Ash Wednesday is rated R for language and violence...is the language really that bad (i. e. is it as bad as Rudy :eek: )? As a general rule, I don't watch movies over PG-13, so I'm not likely to see Ash Wednesday for myself anytime soon, though I'm enjoying reading your spoilers and looking at the screencaps. It looks like an interesting movie, at least.

Originally posted by tgshaw
but I think the act of Sean kissing his son's hand--as well as the way he does it (of course)--is simply beautiful.

Oh, goodness, you MUST screencap that! :D

tgshaw

02-28-2003, 01:21 PM

Originally posted by Tathar
tg, I read that Ash Wednesday is rated R for language and violence...is the language really that bad (i. e. is it as bad as Rudy :eek: )?
It says on the cover that the R rating is for pervasive language and some violence, and that's pretty accurate. Except for Grace (she's an exception to a lot of things in this movie), there's hardly a time when someone opens their mouth that the "f" word or worse doesn't comes out. If by Rudy you mean the Sean Astin movie, and the language in that bothered you (maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying there), for heaven's sake, don't watch Ash Wednesday (or at least don't listen to it). The violence is probably about what you'd see on a violent TV show, but the bad language is "pervasive" in every sense of the word.

--I'm completely sympathetic to what you're saying because, although I can let bad language roll off my back, a really violent movie can give me nightmares for several days. If EW was in a movie with "pervasive violence and some bad language" I don't know if I could handle watching it.

Oh, goodness, you MUST screencap that! :D

I've screencapped it (as I have that entire scene)--but it takes place in the dark, which makes it difficult to see what's happening when you look at stills. That's the scene where they're in a moving vehicle, so they move in and out of the light--with a lead-in from the previous light shots, it might be more possible to make it out, but that would need a whole series of caps. Because I don't have a lot of server space for images, series of screencaps go on my website. I did want to put up a page of some from Ash Wednesday when I do my March updating within the next few days, and my plan was to show something from that scene (as IMHO, it's better than anything else in the movie). I'll see how they come out. I think the main problem with the dark caps in this movie is that it seems to be on a lesser grade of film or something than LotR/FotR is, which would be likely, and when I try to alter anything to make the action easier to see, the picture just kind of falls apart.

One suggestion (for Tathar and others who may be bothered by bad language) is to rent the DVD, use the scene choice option to watch "Second chances" and "Reunion"--more than once if you want :) --and then take it back to the rental place. Ah, one of the wonders of DVDs :p ! (No Elijah Wood in the "Second chances" scene, but it kind of sets up Grace's situation.) -- I'm writing this from memory at work, but I think "Second chances" is the scene I'm thinking of, and "Reunion" (or "Reunited?) is the scene of Rosario and Elijah together, with a little bit of something else before it.

peaceweaver

02-28-2003, 01:55 PM

Thanks for the Birthday wishes, colleagues. You are all wonderful!
Elevensies, thanks for the new name!!! ;)

Inspired by the AW Wedding Picture, I did some research on the relative heights of Rosario Dawson and Elwood. She is only (officially, anyway) one inch taller than EW, whose *official* height is 5'6". So the Wedding Picture is SUCH a scream, and unnecessarily so. In fact, the only time you see the two on screen, they are sitting down ( in that van). So the Wedding Photo just draws attention to this miniscule height differential. :rolleyes:

Yes, anyone with tender ears might not like to listen to Ash Wednesday. Mucho profanity. But the violence, as tg reports, is relatively mild. Well, compared to something like the Sopranos, anyway. Even the profanity is mild compared to the Sopranos! :eek: But there's another reason to turn down the sound--you don't have to listen to the silly dialogue!:p

Have you all heard that Peter Jackson is NOT planning to release a trailer for RoTK to append to TTT? That is the word from PJ himself, via Harry Knowles. He says he is too busy on the SE DVD of TTT and RoTK itself. :( But let us hope that it means the RoTK will silence all doubters and shame all naysayers! And get Elwood a best actor nom. :)

Am having connectivity *issues* with the internet this weekend, so I will probably not see you again til Monday. Happy weekends all!
:k

Tathar

02-28-2003, 02:01 PM

Thanks a bunch, tg, that's very helpful! :k I can handle violence better than I can handle language, though both can give me nightmares -- I can understand your opinion of violent movies quite well. :o So screencaps are, for now, my way of watching Ash Wednesday and The Faculty. :) I'm looking forward to your March updates!

Peaceweaver, yes! I read about the RotK trailer yesterday -- quite a disappointment, isn't it? :( But I also read on TORn that someone thought they saw a little snippet of RotK on TV the other day...with a clip of Frodo holding aloft the Phial with Shelob's eyes in the background! :eek: Now that I want to see, even if it's not more than 2 seconds of footage! I was reading your past discussions on to spoiler, or not to spoiler? and while I would like to be completely surprised seeing RotK, I don't think I can wait until December! :D

shilohmm

02-28-2003, 07:07 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
And, yes, they are made out of the palms from the previous year's Palm Sunday (although it sounds as if we're a bit different from the Lutherans in the way that's done, too, if that's what Sheryl's describing).

Different in that you don't have the kids do a Palm Sunday procession? I didn't grow up Lutheran, and I can't remember how it was done elsewhere, but that's how this church does it - starts the service with the kids following the crucifer to the front, IIRC, then the kids go back to their seats and shred palm fronds until mom confiscates the poor plants. I always wondered how the tradition with the palm leaves being the source of the ashes got started but never looked into it.

Originally posted by tgshaw
We just get the little cross--and it is a cross traced on the person's forehead, although it's usually done with such a small action that it comes out looking like a smudge.

I think the newer pastors tended to do more precise crosses, or at least the most precise one I ever got was from a vicar. Might depend on how many they have to do, too, I suppose. But even the ones that start out clear get smudged pretty quick I think, or maybe I'm just clumsy and tend to rub my forehead or something. I remember someone in Denver (who was clearly not Catholic or Lutheran) gently telling me one Ash Wednesday eve that I needed to wash my face. :p

You guys are really selling me on the movie Ash Wednesday, here. :rolleyes:

Actually, it sounds to be about what I expected, and I'll watch it when I get a chance. Maybe my expectations will be low enough I'll actually enjoy it. :rolleyes: :D

I'm kind of disappointed that there won't be an ROTK trailer attached to TTT, but since TTT has left the local theatres it's probably just as well. I can't decide whether or not I'm unnerved by PJ's statement that he's "too busy," but I definitely am unnerved by how much of the book is left! :eek:

Sheryl

deluby

02-28-2003, 07:55 PM

pop in to say:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY PEACEWEAVER!!!

And drop off a few pics:
Goldenberry, is this the one?
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/david.jpg

One more FinnFro:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/huckfro04.jpg

ainon

02-28-2003, 08:03 PM

Happy Birthday peacewaver! :cool:

Cheers for a good year, ahead! ;)
http://www.classicxf.com/images/FOTR/extended1/050evshire.jpg
http://www.classicxf.com/images/FOTR/extended1/051evshire.jpg

Sad news about the preview, but also good news in a way, because I wouldn't want them distracted from their real work. Except it's a loooooong wait till May/June for the trailer. :sob: Just to justify my visit to AICN, I'll copy and post PJ's reply :p

As far as I'm aware the first ROTK trailer will hit cinemas about May or June.

We're not doing a ROTK trailer for the end of Two Towers like we did last year. The reason is that the TT extended DVD has been so complex this year, it would have taken too many resources away from trying to get that finished.

The FOTR extended cut had 35 extra CG shots - the TT extended cut has over 150. Weta are plowing through those, plus starting ROTK. We have a huge TT extended cut sound mix in a few weeks. It's all very complex and we deemed an early ROTK trailer as simply too much to take on this time around.

I am loving cutting ROTK! Very happy.

Cheers, Peter J

tg -- oooh, nice! Hooded Frodo and AfterFrodo! And I liked your points about the reunion between Sean & Grace. That was well done. Thanks for the RL Ash Wednesday info, tg and Sheryl. I never heard of Ash Wednesday before this movie, so was surprised that to see literal ash involved.

As for language - there's bad language (Pulp Fiction wins this one), and there's 'Uh, like, *why* are you talking like that?'. Ash Wednesday falls into the second category for me. :rolleyes:

AW spoilers

I got the symbolisms too so Ed Burns is able to smack and bulldoze 'em into foreigners' perceptions as well. :rolleyes: Not that I cared, really, because this is the same director who indulges in quick camera cuts and multiple angles and vantage points to show himself walking down streets.

What bugs me is that Sean could have been an interesting character with a little more consistency. If Sean's supposed to be an irritating impulsive twerp, then that's fine considering his age -- but how then did that idiot survive 3 years alone on the run? If Sean is cold-blooded enough to kill 3 grown men, how could he have been ignorant of his family's criminal connections? But if he is unaware of the murderous streak that runs in the family, why isn't he more troubled by what he'd done?

Ed Burns walked himself into a corner, IMO, by writing Sean off as the 'good son'. In The Godfather, one of the key things about the 'good son' in that Mafia family was that he knew perfectly well what his family was; he simply chose to reject the life of crime, until circumstances forced him into it anyway, and he found out that he was good at it. The way I see it, Sean could have made a good hitman himself with a little training; what a waste. :p :D

End AW spoilers

Aww. That's a cute FinnFro, deluby! :)

Prim

02-28-2003, 10:16 PM

The way I see it, Sean could have made a good hitman himself with a little training; what a waste.

:eek: *gasp* Ainon, are you sure you're actually Malaysian and not in fact related to the Sopranos? Not even the teeniest hint of Neapolitan blood?????

Prim's image of Ainon takes an abrupt 180 degree turn....

Thanks for the David pic Deluby. There is a good resemblance there especially since you have got both shots angled from below.
Er...erendis...notice how the Internationally Famous As An Example of Male Beauty statue exhibits a nicely squared off jaw??;) :p

edit: tg et al... this ash thing. Are you not allowed to wash it off or something? Do you have to have it on all day? I don't recollect ever seeing anyone wandering around with a smudge on their forehead????
So does EW have the ash mark on his forehead for the whole movie? And if so, (after looking at the appalling wedding photo) did the continuity people actually mange to keep it looking pretty much the same in each shot? This could be quite amusing for Research....:rolleyes: :D

Eldalieva

03-01-2003, 12:44 AM

When I was a little girl in Catholic school, some other kid told me that it was a sin to wash your ashes off, and that you were SUPPOSED to walk around with them all day. I'm pretty sure that was a little kid superstition thing, akin to "step on a crack break your mother's back." I've never heard any official statement from the Catholic church that says you HAVE to wear them all day. I like to wear mine as long as possible, because I happen to enjoy walking around Manhattan looking like a medieval penitent, but after a while, the ashes do start to itch, and I wear bangs, so the ashes get caught in them and start to sift into my eyes. That's when I usually take them off.

And for the record, I have to say that Elijah is MUCH lovelier than David. Which , if you didn't know the context, could sound like an interesting Biblical discussion!

And while I'm on religion, Maeglian, I just opened the pic you linked to of John the Baptist and Jesus (I wasn't able to open it yesterday, for some reason) and the resemblance is uncanny! I often wonder if so many people have responded so strongly to the appearance of Elijah's Frodo because he just looks so classical...because his likeness, in one form or another, is imbedded in our collective unconscious.

Prim

03-01-2003, 02:16 AM

I like to wear mine as long as possible, because I happen to enjoy walking around Manhattan looking like a medieval penitent

:) Eldalieva: I won't pretend to understand the ashes thing because I don't. But thank you for your answer and giving me a good laugh. And I am in NO way being smart ass here: your comment made me laugh right from the bottom of my heart and that is such a good way to say goodnight and creep into a welcoming bed. Hugs.

Maeglian

03-01-2003, 07:57 AM

Thank you for the information about the ashes. I think it's quite strange this is such a common tradition to many here, and I've never even heard of it.... I learn something new all the time, posting here! :)
Makes me think I should stop outside my town's single small Catholic church this coming Ash Wednesday just to see if it's done here, too. (It's certainly not a custom with the Lutheran churches here, neither is waving palm leafs on Palm Sunday.)

Spoilery comment about AW
*
*
What annoys me the most about the reviews and discussions of AW the movie, is the information about Sean's crime. I just can't find it in my heart to believe that the first choice of a young and apparently quite innocent man who hears someone plotting to kill his brother, would be to shoot 3 grown men down in cold blood. I could make a long list of what IMO could or would realistically happen, ranging from "terrified and uncertain, doesn't manage to do anything at all", via "notifying his brother, or family, or even :rolleyes: the police...." to "threatening them with a gun, hysterically, and getting killed himself for the effort."......
But the scenario in this film seems totally unbelievable to me. Or perhaps I'm just being naive, because I do not *want* such a solution and such actions to be realistic for any young man, let alone one who has just married and is just starting out in life?

*
*
End spoilery comment

Elda, I'm *still* chuckling over this one: I have to say that Elijah is MUCH lovelier than David. Which , if you didn't know the context, could sound like an interesting Biblical discussion! Made me laugh and agree wholeheartedly, once I got the point. (Before you all stare at me worriedly, let me hasten to add that the biblical Elijah is named Elias here, so the Elijah who is the topic of this thread has that name reserved completely for himself and no other in my mind!)

I hope everyone's having a fine weekend. I just read a long fanfic that had me completely reeling, and now I need to rush away and I have too little time to do the things I really intended to get done today.

PS: Tg, your current avatar is so lovely I can hardly express how much I like it!

Goldenberry

03-01-2003, 09:35 AM

deluby: YES! YES! That's exactly the photo pair I was thinking of!

Elda's right: Frolijah is MUCH more beautiful than David.

Y'know, I grew up attending church every week without fail, and it's absolutely stunning to realize how much I don't know about the Bible or various religious traditions. This was the Congregationist church, which evidently is one of the more liberal Protestant sects, but still, I wonder where my head was during all those Sunday school lessons and sermons? :o :rolleyes: Anyway, it's highly educational to read this thread, as always.

Peaceweaver, I sent your birthday greetings via pm, and afterward this phrase popped into my head regarding our fortuitous, Imladris-forged friendship:

A star shines upon the hour of our meeting.:k

tgshaw

03-01-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Eldalieva
When I was a little girl in Catholic school, some other kid told me that it was a sin to wash your ashes off, and that you were SUPPOSED to walk around with them all day. I'm pretty sure that was a little kid superstition thing, akin to "step on a crack break your mother's back."
Definitely. :rolleyes: I've never even heard that one--kids can be so creative :p !

Sheryl--The main difference I noticed is that in Catholic churches it's everyone who has the palms, not just the kids (well, not everyone pulls them apart ;) , but...). And, trust me, the people who order the palms take into account the need for next year's ashes when deciding how many to get. I once lived in a parish where everyone brought their dried out palms from the year before to a special Mardi Gras gathering and they were burned down into ashes to be used the next day, but I don't think that's very common. (It was kind of nice, though, I thought--it gave a continuity to things, and gave us something to do with those old palms!) Edit: Is Mardi Gras possibly better known than Ash Wednesday, even though the whole point of Mardi Gras is that the next day is Ash Wednesday :confused: ?

Prim--Regarding ashes for Sean/Elijah in the movie: he doesn't have any the day the main action takes place, because it wouldn't have been safe for him to go to church. Of course, that didn't keep him from doing some other stupid things :rolleyes: ... But in the flashback to three years earlier, he does have ashes on his forehead. The biggest continuity challenge would have been Ed Burns, since he's in almost every scene (except the flashback) and has the most identifiable cross on his forehead. Have to admit I didn't really pay attention to whether it changed in different scenes :o .

from Maeg:
But the scenario in this film seems totally unbelievable to me.
Things that might make Ash Wednesday worth watching:

Elijah's acting in a few scenes;

Rosario Dawson's acting just about any time she's on screen;

A few of the supporting actors (whacked-out ex-girlfriend and Irish hitman, both played by actors Ed "discovered" in the same stage play, and also the uncle);

Some interesting lighting and camera work (the kind that draws attention to itself, but looks nice).

You'll notice that nothing on that list has anything to do with the plot/storyline, which IMVHO is unbelievable all the way through the movie. As I've said in some "spoiler" comments, and will say generally here (all my opinion, of course)--For the events in this movie to actually happen, every single major character except Grace (Sean's wife) would have to be a complete idiot. To get the idea, just think of the stupid things the victim often does at the end of a suspense movie, and spread it out over the entire movie and almost all the characters.

I'm afraid Sean isn't excluded from that. Ed Burns said Elijah took the part because he "loved the script." Of course, that can have more than one interpretation--the character and the situation do give Elijah some good moments that are emotionally very different from what he's done previously--and in two almost opposite directions--and maybe that's what he was looking for right then (along with a short shoot and not too much pressure because of the low budget--everyone involved was paid SAG minimum, and the entire budget of the film was less than Elijah can draw for one movie).

I'm giving Elijah the benefit of the doubt that he "loved the script" because it let him explore a couple of areas new to his acting, rather than because he thought the plot was wonderful. On a positive note, as opposed to some other parts he took in order to try new things (Flipper, Black and White), Elijah pulls some good acting out of those new areas. That could be especially significant because I think he had to pull it out himself--it doesn't sound as if he got much directing here. Maybe he's growing out of some of the director-dependence he seems to have had in the past.

There isn't a lot to share from the director's commentary because it was pretty repetitious. It mostly sounds like Ed Burns is getting tired of low-budget movies and wants to do something where he doesn't have to "compromise" so much--for example, be able to spend more days shooting so they can redo things that don't really work the first time, instead of having to rush on to the next thing. A really interesting comment was that he was happy with 75% of the movie, and the rest he wished could have been redone. 25% seems an awfully high percentage to be unhappy with when you're basically in charge of everything (he did admit to being a "control freak"--I'd never have guessed :eek: ). He uses a lot of friends and relatives on his movies, but he seemed quite proud of that so I don't know whether or not that would change if he had a bigger budget. BTW, the little boy who plays Elijah and Rosario's son is Ed's nephew--I'd love to know what the kid's parents look like, as I thought his appearance fit pretty well with his "screen parents." I have to say, though, the kid is definitely in the category of actors with only one facial expression (but it's an awfully cute facial expression :) ).

--------------

Maeg--Thanks for the kind comment on the avatar. You probably noticed it's made from the cap I posted on page 84 during the art discussion. :) [I'm a little partial to today's Osgiliath one, mostly because it took a heckuva lot of "tweaking" to get it to work.]

shilohmm

03-01-2003, 12:55 PM

Originally posted by Eldalieva

And for the record, I have to say that Elijah is MUCH lovelier than David. Which , if you didn't know the context, could sound like an interesting Biblical discussion!

Someone posted a cryptic request for "information on Elijah" on the GodAwful FanFic board, saying he was "so cute", and, while someone offered her some info on "Elijah Wood, if that's who you're looking for," it did indeed degernate into a debate on the merits of the respective prophets, LOL! Despite Daniel's many fans, Elijah won, IIRC. ;)

Originally posted by goldenberry

Elda's right: Frolijah is MUCH more beautiful than David.

Second that. :D

Originally posted by Eldalieva
When I was a little girl in Catholic school, some other kid told me that it was a sin to wash your ashes off, and that you were SUPPOSED to walk around with them all day. I'm pretty sure that was a little kid superstition thing, akin to "step on a crack break your mother's back."

I heard that from an adult, but I wrote it off as a "personal superstition" rather than "official church doctrine," myself. I know some Lutherans used to wash them off even before they left the church building, but I usually left mine on. I don't think I identified myself with the penitents, perzactly, but I did think of all the other Christians doing the same thing on the same day and liked to identify with that somehow I guess.

Originally posted by tgshaw

The main difference I noticed is that in Catholic churches it's everyone who has the palms, not just the kids

That would make more sense, really, and follow the Bible story closer, but in our church it's usually just the kids. Our church is older (the average member age when we joined was sixty!) and it may be they do it that way because they don't need a lot of palms for ash - there's usually a low turnout for the Ash Wednesday service. Most of the older people don't come for evening services, particularly in the winter, so Ash Wednesday services tend to be sparsely attended.

Originally posted by tgshaw

I once lived in a parish where everyone brought their dried out palms from the year before to a special Mardi Gras gathering and they were burned down into ashes to be used the next day, but I don't think that's very common. (It was kind of nice, though, I thought--it gave a continuity to things, and gave us something to do with those old palms!)

Yes, but then you need to keep track of the things for a whole year! :D Never happen with us, which is probably why most places don't do it. That would be kind of neat, though. Do Catholics (or anybody) have Shrove Tuesday services? Or do I even have the name right? :p I'm planning pancakes for Shrove Tuesday, but that's the extent of our party plans, unless I have the kids do a pancake race or something.

I've been thinking on the comments about Ed Burns pounding you over the head with religious symbolism, and on repeated viewing some of the symbolism in LOTR seems a bit overbearing (well, actually, Gandalf falling in Moria is the only one that really gets me). ainon said, "I got the symbolisms too so Ed Burns is able to smack and bulldoze 'em into foreigners' perceptions as well."

Is it possible that some directors pound on the Christian symbolism so hard because they're kind of speaking a foreign language? Numerous surveys indicate that most movers and shakers in the movie business are agnostic at best, so even if the guys producing the symbolism are familiar with it, maybe they assume others won't be. My brother was an extra in a Father Dowling Episode (Father Dowling was a mystery-solving priest, for those who haven't seen the show), and they were filming a baptism. My brother and another extra were playing the sponsors, so the director came over to brief them on what was going on.

My brother said, "That's okay; I know how it works. I'm Lutheran." The lady playing his wife said, "I'm Lutheran, too." According to my brother, the director practically clapped his hands over his ears and ran away, exclaiming, "I didn't ask for your religion!" My brother thought the information pertinent because the Lutheran and Catholic baptismal ceremonies are virtually identical, but apparently the director didn't get that at all. My brother thought this experience explained why some shows kind of beat you over the head with the obvious - because that simply isn't how many people in Hollywood think. They don't make the connection to religious symbolism unless it's pounded into them, so directors who use Christian symbolism tend to overstate it from the point of view of people who naturally think in those terms anyhow.

:rolleyes:
Well, I dunno, it made sense as I was falling asleep last night...

Didn't elda or someone link to a site discussing the golden rectangle and beauty some time back? That was originally a Greek concept, I think, so if EW fits that (I can't remember if we came to any conclusions there), then we might think of him as looking Greek because he fits the Greek ideal of beauty. I seem to remember Michaelengelo liked the golden rectangle concept as well. peaceweaver, help me out here!

I've resurrected tgshaw's Cathedral over at CoE, so if anyone has some keen mosaics to share there I'd love to see them. The one I dug up isn't that nifty, but I wasted too much time looking for that darn Greek painting so I thought I'd best quit while I was ahead.

(((((Faculty)))))

Sheryl

Maeglian

03-01-2003, 02:29 PM

Is it possible that some directors pound on the Christian symbolism so hard because they're kind of speaking a foreign language? But why would they feel the need to use that kind of "obvious" symbolism so much if it had no meaning for them; - convention, lack of alternatives, lack of imagination?

The strange thing is, that unless you actually see people going to mass and receiving the ashes in AW, most viewers here (if it ever gets released here, that is) wouldn't easily understand what the smudges were all about, or might actually think the ash smudges some sort of general movie symbolism rather than directly realism-based symbolism. So religious related symbolism can be quite heavy-handed and still not be understood.

Of course, the crucifixion symbolism *would* be understood, no doubt about that. I actually think it's the kind of symbols and images that have embedded themselves as part of the public subconscious that *may* work best as film references if used subtly and sparingly, and very many of those are based in religion, of course. However such imagery obviously also carry the greater risk of being seen as too "heavy-handed " and obvious, hitting the audience over the head with the symbolism and its related meaning and interpretation. The various Frodo poses as suffering saint before the TTT release come to mind.

To me the most heavy-handed religious reference in LotR so far seem to be the re-appearance of Gandalf the White, bathed in uneartly light, actually, not his fall in Moria.....
Ahem. At the risk of sounding totally ignorant and uncultured - exactly what *is* the religious symbolism for the fall in Moria? :o

Prim

03-01-2003, 03:05 PM

Is Mardi Gras possibly better known than Ash Wednesday, even though the whole point of Mardi Gras is that the next day is Ash Wednesday ?

Oh dear. I always thought Mardi Gras was a strange pagan defiance of death street festival popular in the Southern states.
:confused: I'm with Goldenberry- despite two decades of regular church attendance I seem to have absorbed very little. In my defence though I'm fairly sure we didn't have those things though I do know we had a special sermon on Palm Sunday, that was always directly about the entry into the town by Christ.

I can see why Burns put in the symbolism. Though some people would find it heavy handed, other peasants like me would fail to notice or just dismiss it, and there's probably a middle group to whom it has a vague and hopefully interesting resonance.

But why pick specifically Ash Wednesday for the film? Is it done in the same way that the Sopranos had that one show where the women (very ironically) tell the priest where to get off after he invites a guest speaker to a church luncheon who laments the association between italians and organised crime? ie the hypocrisy and bizarre-ness of a criminal community that cheerfully supports a strong religious tradition that it totally disregards????
Didn't EW come from a christian household? Could it be this (however heavy handed) religion versus real life irony that attracted him to the script?

Eldalieva

03-01-2003, 03:30 PM

Prim, Mardi Gras literally means "fat tuesday" in French. Ash Wednesday, the day after Mardi Gras, is the first day of Lent, the 40-day period before Easter when good Christians are supposed to fast, and reflect, and do penance and other spiritual things to prepare themselves for the Resurrection. It's based upon the 40 days that Jesus spent in the desert, being tempted by Satan. Fat Tuesday is "fat" because you were supposed to stuff yourselves and revel in all the yummy things that you knew you would be "giving up" for Lent...over the years, Mardi Gras became a big hedonistic celebration, especially in Catholic places like Italy, Brazil (isn't "Carnivale" in Venice and Rio de Janeiro the same as Mardi Gras?) and of course, the very Catholic city of New Orleans.

I generally find that filmmakers don't know what to do with religious symbolism in their films, and it often comes out looking like mockery. I'm Catholic, and it seems to me that the Catholics wind up bearing the brunt of this sort of thing. I fully admit that many of our rites, rituals and not-necessarily-sanctioned-by-the-Church superstitions might seem mystifying, medieval or downright comical to others, but all too often, artists think they can use the sacred symbolism of the Catholic world to make some kind of heavy-handed point. Frankly, they usually don't even know what they're talking about.

And for that matter, not having seen "Ash Wednesday," I don't know what I'm talking about, either!

Tathar

03-01-2003, 04:12 PM

Goodness, this discussion on Catholic traditions is really interesting! Being a mostly non-denominational Christian myself, though a few of my cousins are Catholic, I don't really have any idea of the ceremonies performed in the Catholic church. The idea of putting ashes on your forehead as a sign of your repentence (correct me if I'm getting mixed up) sounds very interesting -- made the more so because, as was pointed out, it comes from Jewish roots. A Messianic Jew (those who believe in Christ but maintain the Jewish customs and traditions) came to speak at my church a few months ago, and I've been wanting to attend one of their meetings. I wonder if they have something similar to Ash Wednesday, since it comes from Jewish practices? If I ever do visit a Messianic Jewish Synagogue, I'll find out and let you know, if anyone shares my interest. :rolleyes: :D

And yes, Prim, Elwood was raised as a Christian -- interesting to think that it might have attracted him to the script of Ash Wednesday. He's talked about his faith twice that I know of, and very plainly too (there's our wonderfully blunt 'Lijah!). :D Here's one instance, from a chat:

What are your religious beliefs?
Elijah Wood: Well, I'm a Christian. I was raised a Christian. I'm not highly religious in some people's eyes because I don't go to church. It's not that I've made a choice saying that I do not want to go to church... It's more circumstantial than that. But since our family has not been to church in so long, it's not really something we've considered doing.
I don't feel that in order to be a "good Christian," that you have to go to church. You can be religious without going to church by just praying and living your life for God. And living your life by God's teachings, or the bible. It interesting...every bible for every religion says basically the same thing.

And here's the other, from a magazine interview:

Q: Are you religious or spiritual in any way?
EW: "Yeah, probably more spiritual than religious. I'm not a huge believer in or supporter of organized religion. It's run by people, and people tend to tarnish the purity of what religion is about. I was raised a Christian, I believe in the Bible and that's a good thing -- I believe more in a personal relationship with God than having to go through priests.
I believe in prayer. Yes, and that it is listened to. I do believe my life has been blessed -- so much during my 20 years, I can't believe there's not someone looking out for me."

That was from Time Out Magazine, in case you want to look it up on TORn -- the beginning of the interview was pretty much the same as most, but his discussion on religion continued for a bit after what I've posted.

Isn't it refreshing to find a "celebrity" who isn't afraid to be opinionated? And for the record, I agree with most of what he says about religion -- sounds like he'd be "non-denominational" Christian.

Interesting, as always, what twists and turns our discussions take! :rolleyes:

Niphredil

03-01-2003, 05:25 PM

quote:

"I believe in the Bilbo and that's a good thing "

Now that's what I call filial piety! :D

I'm sure EJW was raised a Catholic, actually, to be more specific.

Tathar

03-01-2003, 05:29 PM

My gosh, that's embarrassing -- or would be, were I not among friends here in the Faculty! :o You see how LotR has engraved itself in my mind? :eek: Very sad...

Niphredil, what makes you say Elijah was raised a Catholic? :confused:

Hobmom

03-01-2003, 05:30 PM

Well I watched Ash Wednesday last night and here are my thoughts on it.

There are things I like about it.... It's cinematography that makes everything look grittily beautiful with that pervasive sepia tint. It takes a lot to make that area of NY look strangely beautiful but it looked very striking to me. So I was able to watch it all basically appreciating it's 'atmosphere'. Ed Burns spent so little on this film but it looks better than lots of other high budget films. Sort of like a serious Woody Allen movie. The plot is pretty absurd and is full of plot holes but I WAS surprised by the twists at the end. I won't reveal what they are for those who don't like spoilers.

As for all the religious symbolism...... I think Ed is drawing as usual on some of his family and neighborhood background. As his other films have. Ultimately it's about self-sacrifice... Sound familiar????

So how is Elijah in this movie? Well as always he tries very hard to give his all but I really think that since this was filmed in eight days he just didn't have enough prep time to get into being a gritty Hell's Kitchen Irish mafia kid. It would have helped if he could have been trained to do a 'Noo Yawk' accent. We know how well he can do accents so he certainly could have picked it up given a little time. Every other character in this movie just wreaks of NYC grit but Elijah. He is just so squeaky clean and..sorry sweetie... SO Santa Monica! He COULD have gotten into the character given more time but it just seems like Ed got the idea for this movie,knocked off the script in a day or two, rounded up a very outstanding cast and one good cinematographer and filmed it in eight days. Bam!

Elijah does get to 'glow' in maybe two scenes. Oddly enough I found him fascinating in the opening sequence where he overhears the guys planning to kill his brother then he gets the gun out and plugs the guys in the men's room. This is really not grossly violent and Elijah looks really good in these scenes. He is given the chance to use his remarkably expressive face to show SOOO much. And this, we know, is one of his great strengths as an actor. The other scene I like is when he is finally reunited with Rosario Dawson and their little boy and he says.. 'He's mine?' And he gives them that 'Elijah smile of delight'....sniffle!!!! And then he kisses the little boy's hand. Snuffle!!!!!

Haven't caps of that scene been requested? I'd sure like to have some!

Those two scenes and bits of others show what he CAN do when he's allowed to. It's too bad Ed couldn't take the time for this movie to develop into what it could have been.

There are other great actors here. I really like Oliver Platt as an actor. He never gives a bad performance. And he's good as the main baddie. There's an actor from Homicide...can't think of his name right now... who plays Ed's and Elijah's uncle... who is good too. Rosario tries her best but is never given much to work with. All the supporting cast is excellent.

So all in all it's a very mixed bag. It does have a lot of the 'f'' word. But as has been said it's not terribly violent. It's interesting to look at and Elijah is good when given the chance.

ainon

03-01-2003, 09:11 PM

tg, I really like today's avatar. Seen out of context, all sorts of other angsty possibilites come to mind. ;)

Tathar, there's an interview somewhere in which we're told EW's Catholic, and that his mom favoured Biblical names (Zachariah, Elijah, Hannah). I think it's the Rolling Stone interview.

Maeg, so Elijah = Elias? I don't know all the English names for prophets, so I'd been wondering which prophet Elijah was. But if you say Prophet Elias - he I would know. :)

Now, Prim, I didn't spend all those years reading Frederick Forsyth & co and not pick up on a few somethings for what makes a good hitman. :p As Maeg noted, Sean's first instinct upon hearing that his brother's life is in danger is to premeditate a mass murder. A psychopath in the making? ;) There're mafia gentlemen who never get the chance to make their bones in such excellent fashion. To go back to The Godfather analogy again (bear with me, I've only seen that one, like ten times or more) even Michael Corleone had to be taught how to kill - and he grew up knowing that murder and violence is the norm for his family.

As for symbolisms, I haven't seen anything in LOTR that would take me out of the story. Gandalf's fall, where his arms are spread out could have been interpreted as symbolic, but I think that was one occasion where those who want to see it that way can, while others just see it as the logical consequence from his falling position.

Ash Wednesday OTOH doesn't allow for alternative interpretations and it's not even subtle or significant (back to The Godfather :rolleyes: there's a whole sequence which juxtaposes scenes of a baby's baptism with scenes of revenge killings that are occuring around NY at the very moment. That wasn't subtle, but storywise, that baptism was there to establish an airtight alibi, and to show something about Corleone's character. It wasn't just 'there'). Even though I had no idea what the Ash Wednesday characters were doing with ashes on their foreheads, it was immediately understood that they're Good (but no *so* good, 'coz they swear a lot). Sean had ash on his forehead while he's blowing Baddies away, so we know he's Good too. It wasn't the religious symbolisms per se - it was Symbolism. Period. Like if everyone Good were wearing white, while everyone bad wore Black. That kinda thing. :p

I agree, Hobmom, about the opening sequence. And I agree, EW did good with what he had. I have no complaints with EW - even some of his little 'I know I'm being a twerp but dang it I'm a stressed out kid and it's all big brother's fault' quirks are fascinating. ;) If Ed Burns could have decided what Sean should be: all-out good (in which case the murders are illogical), or potentially-bad (which would have been so easy) then a lot of the movie's problems could have been ironed out, because really, Ed Burns' character isn't half as interesting as what Sean's could have been.

Thanks for pointing out that the cinematography was good. I didn't realise. :o Too many shots of Ed Burns walking and walking and walking ...

Hobmom

03-01-2003, 09:18 PM

Hey..I just tend to notice good cinematography and will sometimes just watch a movie because it looks good.

Ash Wednesday just has entirely too much Ed Burns. Walking, talking, not thinking....

shilohmm

03-01-2003, 09:43 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
But why would they feel the need to use that kind of "obvious" symbolism so much if it had no meaning for them; - convention, lack of alternatives, lack of imagination?

Convention, I think. The imagery does resonate for most Americans I suppose, and even unbelievers "know what it means". The only "national" imagery Americans have is Christian, I'd guess. Well, and there's imagery associated with movies or commercials, but that tends to be within subcategories. There's imagery in some s-f movies that most s-f fans will get (stuff from Kubrick's 2001, for instance), and I suspect there's stuff in other subcategories that I'm less consciously aware of.

Originally posted by Maeglian

To me the most heavy-handed religious reference in LotR so far seem to be the re-appearance of Gandalf the White, bathed in uneartly light, actually, not his fall in Moria.....

I don't even associate that with "religious" imagery - it makes me think of s-f cliches, like Close Encounters. :p Which I suppose is religious imagery, but not necessarily Christian.

Originally posted by Maeglian

Ahem. At the risk of sounding totally ignorant and uncultured - exactly what *is* the religious symbolism for the fall in Moria? :o

As Gandalf falls, he arranges himself in the form of a cross; legs straight with feet together, arms flung out to either side. It looks unnatural to me, so I always notice it.

Originally posted by Eldalieva

I generally find that filmmakers don't know what to do with religious symbolism in their films, and it often comes out looking like mockery. I'm Catholic, and it seems to me that the Catholics wind up bearing the brunt of this sort of thing.

I think you're right that Catholic symbolism is most used, but I think it's the generic Protestants who get the worst of it when it comes to "evil Christian characters," at least in terms of TV back when I watched more regularly. I can think of a number of sympathetic Catholic characters in various TV shows, but can't think of any sympathetic Protestant ones. Catholics may get it in the neck more in terms of movies, though.

But if a specific denomination is mentioned it's the Catholics - odd, that, considering the grief Baptists get in the national press sometimes. I think Greek Orthodox got grief on Taxi, but I didn't watch the show regularly so that's rumor. As a rule, the worse Lutherans have to deal with is Garrison Keillor. :D

Tathar's Bilbo for Bible bit cracked me up, but I was going to blame it on the original article. ;) There's a fancy schmancy term for your fingers typing common patterns rather than what you mean to type, but of course I can't think of it right now. :rolleyes:

Thanks for the review, Hobmom. Maybe if I can just disengage my brain I can enjoy Ash Wednesday. I haven't seen any other Burns movies (unless you count Ken Burns :p ), but I do like atmospheric stuff some days. Of course, most of the atmospheric stuff I dearly love is either Japanese anime or old silent films or in French... maybe I need to watch the movie with no sound track, but can't do that because I want to hear Elijah. Second time through, perhaps.

Sheryl

tgshaw

03-01-2003, 11:03 PM

Originally posted by Hobmom
There are things I like about it.... It's cinematography that makes everything look grittily beautiful with that pervasive sepia tint. It takes a lot to make that area of NY look strangely beautiful but it looked very striking to me. So I was able to watch it all basically appreciating it's 'atmosphere'. Ed Burns spent so little on this film but it looks better than lots of other high budget films. Sort of like a serious Woody Allen movie...
Hobmom--If you haven't yet, you might want to listen to the director's commentary, if you're interested in the cinematography, etc. A lot of the lighting that I thought was for pure effect was really to keep the outside view invisible because they didn't have the money to "dress" [oooo, I learned a new film term :) ] the street as if it's 1983. He also talks about where each scene was shot--not too interesting for me, but probably would be for anyone who knows New York--they had to shoot all over the city to get enough locations that looked like Hell's Kitchen in 1983. And it wasn't surprising to hear him say that he very much admires Woody Allen.

As for all the religious symbolism...... I think Ed is drawing as usual on some of his family and neighborhood background. As his other films have...
I haven't seen any of his other movies, but from what I've read and from the commentary I think that's right. And IMHO you can tell he's on his own ground, unlike some other authors/filmmakers/whoevers who try to use religious (especially Catholic) imagery but don't get it right. I don't remember if I said this in a "spoiler" or "non-spoiler" comment, but what came off as heavy-handed to me was the actual choice of Ash Wednesday as the day for everything to happen. Once you have that as a "given," everything else is just real--he's not making anything up as far as religious practice.

How that applies to the world of the Irish mafia, I have no idea, but I'd guess he probably got that about right, too. Among some immigrant groups that have stayed fairly cohesive, the church is often more a part of cultural identity than it is of spirituality (for many people, not all). So you end up with people who receive ashes--because it's part of their culture, not because they're necessarily interested in repenting--and then go out and order murders. (Or perform revenge killings during a baptism?) And, good heavens, I'm not suggesting that it's a common thing for members of "cohesive immigrant groups" to kill people :eek: !!!

The only things that seemed heavy-handed to me were (1) the "double" Ash Wednesday setting (a plot problem for me--if you were hiding out for three years would you come back to town on the same day that you left?); (2) the down-to-the-last-individual separation of "our side" from "their side" by who was wearing ashes and who wasn't; and (3) the final scene (which would be a spoiler, so I won't spell it out).

...It would have helped if he could have been trained to do a 'Noo Yawk' accent. We know how well he can do accents so he certainly could have picked it up given a little time. Every other character in this movie just wreaks of NYC grit but Elijah.
Well, he had been on the run for three years. A lot of it in Texas, which can do all kinds of strange things to an accent... ;)

And from the director's commentary you learn that every other actor besides Elijah (and maybe Rosario?) is from New York. The two who have the strongest Irish brogues (ex-girlfriend and Irish hitman), Ed "discovered" in a stage play at an Irish cultural center. Probably not a "fake" accent in the lot!!

Those two scenes and bits of others show what he CAN do when he's allowed to. It's too bad Ed couldn't take the time for this movie to develop into what it could have been.
I think that's a lot of the dissatisfaction that comes through in the director's commentary. He sounds as if he's just getting a bit tired of having to "run and gun" his movies and would like to work with a bigger budget and more time.

IMVVHO, what would have helped Ash Wednesday the most would have been some collaboration. The little niggling plot problems that (for me) added up to one big plot problem are mostly the kind that could have been caught by someone other than the writer. But as writer/director/lead actor, I don't know if Ed Burns had anyone who could have said to him, "Y'know, Ed, this bit here just doesn't make sense!"

And, Hobmom, I agree with you on the pick of those two scenes as being Elijah's best. I liked that opening flashback better than the later one, maybe just because it was less violent. And the reunion scene gave him an emotional situation he hadn't acted before.

I've been working on my March website updates all day and still have a lot to do. I'm trying for those screencaps of the reunion scene, but the setting's so dark I'm not sure how they'll come out. I don't know if anyone has the capability of doing this, but, boy, if someone could download that scene--it's less than a minute long--and post it for those who won't be watching the whole movie, it would be a great service!!

deluby

03-02-2003, 12:12 AM

Sorry to stray away from current discussion, but I was reading through posts in the LOTR forum at Oscarwatch and one poster's words about EW somehow got me and I wanna share with the Faculty: From Oscarwatch, LOTR forum, posted by Bob Burns:
I believe that Wood has made a real, personal sacrifice playing Frodo - that he has left something of himself in his journey as an actor playing his character that he will never recover. I feel pity for his Frodo and pity for him. It is my opinion that his portrayal will not be understood until the movie is complete and that when it is complete it will be seen as important.

Wood does have the Hollywood resume to qualify for a major award - the problem is that he is young. Best Actor almost always goes to guys that are 40 or more. But I feel strongly - as I believe PJ and the rest of the cast will as well - that Wood is the most deserving member of the cast.
Edit to add another quote from him:From Oscarwatch, LOTR forum, posted by Bob Burns:
Wood's role, though, is an Oscar role. McKellen has been very complementary of Wood's work - and I think he was referring to ROTK. Pushing Frodo and Sam makes all the sense in the world.

The critics were pretty mean to Wood in TTT - if that doesn't change he won't have much of a chance. This is part of the sacrifice he is making to play the character. People - particularly men - like to see action heroes be more manly/studly. Frodo's heroic qualities are in some ways feminine. Part of the negative reaction to Wood's portrayal of Frodo has been sexist - the kind of sexism that says that men/boys have to conform to certain stereotypes. Compare Frodo to Luke Skywalker for example.

Few young actors get Best Actor nods - they get some supporting actor nods - and the character Frodo is a character that can create ambivalent feelings - particularly in men. But I still think they have to - must - back him completely for a best Actor nod.
Some history - Frodo is based on an historical figure named Frodo, a Germanic king who was a contemporary of Jesus. King Frodo fostered peace and prosperity for his people, but he was not revered in northern legends, he was considered weak, ineffectual, because he was not greedy for power and war-loving.
That's why Wood may not be respected for his portrayal of Frodo - the character Frodo disturbs strong unacknowledged prejudices that, unfortunately, we still carry with us.Now I see why so many people just don't get EW's excellent performance.

*Back to the AW discussion.*

Prim

03-02-2003, 12:27 AM

Ultimately it's about self-sacrifice... Sound familiar????
Aha! Thank you Hobmom , that was the connection I was looking for.
Eldalieva-I always see specifically Catholic imagery as being a strange mix of familiar (to a Protestant) and yet exotic. I like it.

Those quotes from EW are very interesting Tathar. I think it takes quite some courage for an actor to state firmly that s/he has religious beliefs these days. Good for EW. I hope he can hold on to them in the challenging years to come.

Now, Prim, I didn't spend all those years reading Frederick Forsyth & co and not pick up on a few somethings for what makes a good hitman
err... and that was intended to be reassuring????? I am seriously never going to let you get within a hundred miles of poor , unwary EW.

Right. I am going to really do some work now. Yep. Work. Now. Here I go. Instantly. Now. If you people could try for boring for a change it would really help.

Oh. btw tg, any AW screencaps are GOOD screencaps. Hint.

Eldalieva

03-02-2003, 09:01 AM

Deluby thank you so much for those quotes. Is Bob Burns just a poster on that thread or is he actually someone in the business of Hollywood...a writer or a critic? Because if he is, it is more than heartening to see that someone understands, both the role of Frodo and what Elijah Wood has brought to it.

Two things caught my eye in particular:

That's why Wood may not be respected for his portrayal of Frodo - the character Frodo disturbs strong unacknowledged prejudices that, unfortunately, we still carry with us.

I recall that even after FoTR came out, I was confused by why so many critics were singling out Viggo Mortensen for both his appearance ("hunky" "studly") and his performance. Now I've always been Frodo-centric, but I could not understand how even someone who was not Frodo-centric, or had no foreknowledge of Tolkien, could sit through that movie and not be overwhelmed by Elijah's Frodo.

In truth, I've always suspected that part of the reason Elijah's Frodo gets overlooked is because of what Bob Burns says above: something about this character is disturbing. Frodo does not act like what we think of as a "hero," nor does he look like one. It is so much easier for most people to accept and praise someone who conforms to our notions of what a hero should be: powerful, rugged, masculine, commanding.

I think the character of Frodo makes people nervous, almost on a subconscious level. They don't quite know what to do with him, so they focus on characters and events that are easier to understand. It saddens me to think that this cultural discomfort with the character may prevent Elijah from getting the recognition he has earned and so truly deserves.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think Elijah's looks make people nervous as well. He doesn't look "heroic," but there's more to it than that. I don't agree with some detractors that he "looks like a girl," but he certainly doesn't look like what is considered acceptably "masculine." A while back, on this thread, I was wondering why so few critics comment on Elijah's looks (I was speaking specifically about LoTR), and I suspected it was because he is NOT handsome, or hunky....he's beautiful, and this culture has a very hard time applying that adjective to a man. I think this beauty of his is very difficult for a lot of people to accept, and therefore they overlook it. It is just easier that way.

Here's an interesting little tidbit, that may mean nothing at all, but that caught my attention. Last year, one of the few critics to make a definite comment about Elijah's looks in FoTR was a woman from The Washington Post. I do not have the quote, but she went into a lengthy description of how he has "breathed new life into the term, 'beautiful youth'", and his looks seemed to hover somewhere between "boy and man, male and female, angel and hobbit." I think she was spot-on, but I think it is this very mutability of Elijah's beauty that can be very disturbing to some. The interesting part of this, is that THIS year, I noticed that The Washington Post had a man reviewing TTT. Now this could mean nothing at all---maybe that lady just moved on to another position---but I noticed that, in an otherwise positive review, this male critic singled Elijah out for some particularly harsh criticism, centered on his appearance:

Desson Howe, The Washington Post 12/17/02:
Of course, one can still track certain irritations. Elijah Wood, as the game little hero Hobbit, Frodo Baggins, still relies entirely too much on a single expression: It's that stricken look, as if he's just learned that not only didn't he get into Harvard but he has been banned from ever setting foot in Massachusetts. It's really not acting, it's face-making. Here's how you do it: First, sky-blue contacts. Then, in front of a mirror, make your mouth an open square. Flare your nostrils. Wrinkle that brow. Really, really, squish it up good. Open your eyes to about f/1. Tighten your throat. Suck in your cheeks. There, you are now indistinguishable from the bearer of the One True Ring.

Such bile is enough to make me wonder if the Post, or at least some folks on their Entertainment staff, was not vaguely uncomfortable with what the other critic said last year (forgive me, I have a paranoid, conspiracy-theory streak a mile wide).

Finally, this also struck me, from Bob Burns' quote:

I believe that Wood has made a real, personal sacrifice playing Frodo - that he has left something of himself in his journey as an actor playing his character that he will never recover. I feel pity for his Frodo and pity for him.

I've always felt pity for Frodo :( , but I share Bob Burns' pity for Elijah. I think he was immensely fortunate to play this role and have this experience, and I think we have all been blessed by it. But I believe, like Mr. Burns, that he poured a great deal of himself into the role, more than even he himself might realize. It astounds me to think that he accepted this part when he was only eighteen years old...and that for the next two years of his life he was, essentially, Frodo Baggins. I believe that Elijah has a very good head on his shoulders, and I think he has a supportive, stable network of family and friends around him. But I think of what he said in one of the TTT television specials this December: that when this (the whole LoTR trilogy) was finally all over, it would be "a very tragic day indeed." From the look on his face and the tone of his voice, I don't think he was speaking idly there, or being dramatic. I do hope, for his sake, that he hasn't left too much of himself on this journey. And indeed, it will be doubly tragic for Elijah to have made such a sacrifice, and to have it go unrecognized by his peers and his industry---the obvious parallels to Frodo's own story are almost too spooky for my tastes.

Bridget Chubb

03-02-2003, 11:15 AM

I know you guys were talking earlier about what to call Froshadowings from movies EW made after LOTR. (sorry if this has already been resolved - I'm way behind.:o ) Anyway, this just came to me last night, and you guys can use it or not - I won't be offended if you don't.:D

Echfros?

Tathar

03-02-2003, 01:01 PM

Gosh, Elda and Deluby, what else can I add? That woman from the Washington post was indeed spot on, as was Bob Burns' post -- and I think it is true that his "non-heroic" looks do somehow make it hard for some people to except him as heroic... hopefully, though, he'll get the recognition he deserves for RotK!

All right, so I can add a bit to what you two said. :rolleyes: Here are a few things relating to our discussion that I've found at www.frodoandsam.net (http://www.frodoandsam.net) :

"Wood delivers the film's best performance, somehow finding new facial expressions for old feelings of inadequacy and fear." ~ Lawrence Toppman, The Charlotte Observer

So THERE, Desson Howe!

And this:

"Frodo is the hero-as-average-fellow in Tolkien's tale, the very opposite of a strapping action figure, to whom will fall the saga's great heroic assignment -- and Wood imbues the role with such a serious, kindly, unmannered goodness that he holds his ground easily even against such attention-getting costars." ~ Lisa Schwarzbaum, Entertainment Weekly

And one more that I got a kick out of:

"Mr. Wood's light, tremulous voice for Frodo and earnest, pointed face offer decency. He sometimes seems to possess the visage that Michael Jackson has spent a lot of money having sculptured by man-made means." ~ Elvis Mitchell, The New York Times

There's that Michael Jackson reference again! :D

There are many, many more comments about Elijah's Frodo on frodoandsam.net, if you want to check them out, a lot of them saying almost exactly what everyone has been saying here.

Originally posted by deluby
*Back to the AW discussion.*

Or not... :rolleyes:

Narya Celebrian

03-02-2003, 01:40 PM

Bridget - I've been mulling over the very same thing. The only one I was able to come up with was Froflections - you know, like reflections of Frodo. I'm not that happy with it, though - it makes me think of language rather than pictures.

Originally posted by deluby
*Back to the AW discussion.*

LOL - or not...

shilohmm

03-02-2003, 03:22 PM

Originally posted by Eldalieva

I think the character of Frodo makes people nervous, almost on a subconscious level. They don't quite know what to do with him, so they focus on characters and events that are easier to understand. It saddens me to think that this cultural discomfort with the character may prevent Elijah from getting the recognition he has earned and so truly deserves.

I wrote in an e-mail yesterday that, "Frodo is not the type of character to appeal to everyone, and he is particularly not the type of character to seem heroic to people who look for more conventional heroes. ... IMHO, a lot of the guys who are uncomfortable with Frodo's "big eyes" and "scared rabbit looks" are guys who're uncomfortable with their own lack of masculinity, LOL! Guys who are only comfortable with a very clichéd type of male, that is."

Bit of Faculty synchonicity, I guess. Elda's statement is not only nicer, but more accurate than mine - because I was being flippant, of course. It isn't just guys who worry about whether they're macho enough who find Frodo unnerving, but people who are just more comfortable with a more "typical" heroic type.

Originally posted by Eldalieva

I think this beauty of his is very difficult for a lot of people to accept, and therefore they overlook it. It is just easier that way.

Totally agree. EW has a very distinct look, and one that doesn't fit with "standard heroic" or with any other common Hollywood "type," which is probably why he gets the "big eyes/goofy looking" routine so much.

Originally posted by Eldalieva

I've always felt pity for Frodo :( , but I share Bob Burns' pity for Elijah. I think he was immensely fortunate to play this role and have this experience, and I think we have all been blessed by it. But I believe, like Mr. Burns, that he poured a great deal of himself into the role, more than even he himself might realize. <CLIP>
I do hope, for his sake, that he hasn't left too much of himself on this journey.

Here is where Elda and I seem to part company. I don't exactly pity EW for taking the role of Frodo, and I don't think he "used himself up" in the role the way Frodo is used up achieving his task, or at least I don't think there's a meaningful parallel of that loss there.

But I do think EW was brave to take the part, not just because the part itself was a huge challenge and an accomplishment, but because EW ran the risk of being typecast, and of people saying he'd "peaked young." EW had charted a very careful and sensible acting career to that point, neatly avoiding the pitfall of being typecast, so taking a major role in a film destined to be this big was, I suspect, a caculated risk for him. Maybe it's me, but sf and fantasy films seem to be the worst when it comes to getting typecast, possibly because there's still the concept that "actors aren't really necessary" to those films (i.e., what's important is to get the special effects right), so there's a stigma of "not really a good actor" to someone who is successful with sf or fantasy.

The other reason I really admire EW's bravery in taking the part of Frodo is that it is a unique part, and the book character was often condemned as a "wimp" and a "failure". If PJ was true to the book at all, EW was going to be in a part that isn't viewed as heroic by a lot of the people likely to go see the movie. It's sf and fantasy fans who dissed the book character, so it was pretty much garunteed that EW's character, and his performance of the character, was going to get called a wimp and a failure. It's one thing to face that sort of thing as an unknown, trying to break into acting - EW chose to do that as a successful actor, which I think took a lot of courage.

Not only did he run the risk of being typecast - he ran the risk of being typecase as a wimp! That's brave, I think. Plus, when an actor is in a very successful movie young, it's almost inevitable that their later performances will be compared to this "height." I think EW has dealt with that before, and will overcome it, but it has to be annoying.

I don't mean to say that taking the role of Frodo wasn't a huge opportunity for him, and a great thing. But it wasn't without risk, in terms of his long-term career, and I think the evidence is in that EW is aware of his long-term career and thus would be aware of the risk.

Taking Ash Wednesday was a risk, too, because he probably knew he wouldn't have the time to really get into the character, and I assume he knows as well as we do that he does best with a director who really helps him to do that. His situation with Ash Wednesday was closer to that of Black and White than of the Ice Storm or LOTR. And he had to know that his performance there would be compared to his performance in LOTR, even though the support system was so very different.

He may never be in a situation where the production support was so excellent as it was with LOTR, and that's kind of sad, but I don't think that means he'll never act as well.

I really, really wish that they'd release Chain of Fools legit. I would like people to see EW's comedic abilities, because I think he does a great job in that. Just excellent. And it'd help with the typecasting problem, as well. So would "Try Seventeen," I think. The poor guy's doing what he can to diffuse the risks of LOTR, but the production companies he's working with aren't helping. :D

Originally posted by Bridget Chubb

Echfros?

That one cracked me up, for some reason, and I think it clever, but it doesn't entirely grab me. Neither does Narya's. I don't really see why we can't use "Froshadowings" for both Foreshadowings and post events - even if it's after he did Frodo, it's still sort of a shadow of Frodo, if you follow, it just doesn't accurately bounce off of "fore".

But I'm bad at remembering terminology anyhow, so never mind me...

Sheryl

Tathar

03-02-2003, 04:38 PM

I know, I'm going wildly off-topic here (again! :rolleyes: ), but I just found this in a book I'm reading, and I thought you'd all enjoy it, as it reminds me of a certain someone's "beautiful crying" on the banks of Amon Hen... :D

"Never was sorrow more sweetly set forth, their faces seeming to beautify their sorrow ... The most iron eyes ... were drawn thereby into the society of their tears."

That was written by the first biographer (don't know his name) of King Edward VI (sigh -- my historical hero!...), sometime in the late 1500s, I believe. It's describing the reaction of Edward and Elizabeth to the news of their father's death. No mention of nostril acting...but doesn't it sound familiar? Another Froshadowing -- just centuries in advance! Maybe there were Haremites even in the 16th century... :eek:

tgshaw

03-02-2003, 05:10 PM

Hmmm... this is even worse, but all I can think of is "Frobacks" :eek: !

-------------------

I think the reasons everyone's given for Elijah's lack of "star treatment" are very credible. The only one I can think of to add is the subtlety of his acting. There's a reason we watch scenes over and over, and then analyze the screencaps. Most people don't do that :eek: ! I know, it's hard to believe :p , but most people go to the theater or rent a movie, watch the film once, and then go on to something else. IMHO, we have to remember that critics and Academy voters do the same thing. I spent most of today on a page of Huck Finn screencaps. By the time I was finished, the commentary took up almost as much room as the pictures--and this is from a ten-year-old actor!

I'm certainly not going to say that something can't be both popular and exceptionally good, but sometimes the best art in any field is--let's face it--not "easy to get." Not everyone "gets" Tolkien, certainly not everyone "gets" Frodo, and the evidence is that not everyone "gets" Elijah's acting. I see all three of those as negative statements about our culture, and I feel sorry for the people who are missing out, but I don't know of any way to change it--at least not immediately. More people watch "Friends" than "Masterpiece Theatre."

While I admire Elijah for taking the risks he did in playing Frodo, I don't pity him. From everything he's said, the experience had a great impact on his life, in some ways that are beyond stardom--making some real friends, for example, which he felt he hadn't had before. If I were a parent of a 19-21 year old who'd gained that and nothing else from a two-year work assignment, I'd be very happy for him/her. I'm sure working with Ian McKellan gave Elijah priceless experience. He also--and IMHO this is rather important--made enough money that if he wants to act in small but wonderful arthouse movies that pay him SAG minimum for the rest of his life, he can afford to do that.

But that's not going to happen (unless he chooses it). Being in an Ed Burns movie is not a bad thing--he's been well-respected, although I think by the time Ash Wednesday was finished Ed had lost his passion for small, low-budget movies, and it suffered from that. But he's still a recognized name in the industry and there's no shame attached to being in one of his movies. Being a major supporting character in a (relatively serious) Jim Carrey movie is not a bad thing. It seems to me that Elijah's still got a healthy career going.

I should have known better than to start this post when I did, as I have to run off leaving this kind of hanging in mid-air. Basically--and this may be my inner aunt talking--as long as Elijah's happy, I'm happy. Chasing after stardom or awards doesn't seem to be important to him, so he's not going to take roles with that as a goal. He hasn't chosen that direction in life, and, actually, I think that's great. It might not say much for the "powers that be" in Hollywood, but I think it says wonderful things about him.

Prim

03-03-2003, 01:05 AM

. originally from Bob... ;)
People - particularly men - like to see action heroes be more manly/studly. Frodo's heroic qualities are in some ways feminine. Part of the negative reaction to Wood's portrayal of Frodo has been sexist - the kind of sexism that says that men/boys have to conform to certain stereotypes.

Yes. I totally agree with this.
Thanks for posting this deluby- I wasn't ignoring it just writing while you posted and did not check back on the thread.

This anti-Frodo by men feeling seems very strong here: NZ has a very strong macho male culture. I really do believe this resistance to Frodo, and by extension to EW as his personification, is sexist: not only are heroes expected to be macho but Frodo type heroes are sissies ie feminine ie weird or at least a bit unnatural.:mad:

But its ironic really: this anti-hero with qualities often assigned (erroneously IMO) to women was created by a man very much a relict of an earlier age (no offense to Tolkein fans, this is just an opinion) . For all of his "sexist" and limited vision of women Tolkein created a remarkably unstereotyped hero.

ainon

03-03-2003, 05:36 AM

Thanks deluby, for sharing those quotes with us. Pretty much in agreement with what's already been said by everyone; I'll just add that I admire that kid too and I can't begin to imagine the amount of confidence he had (and still has) to be the lead in a movie project of such magnitude.

On a much lighter note :D :

http://img-www.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/6172.jpg

And this is beautiful:

http://image1ex.villagephotos.com/1730908.jpg

Totally OT: Prim, Azalea and Viola -- Discovery Channel did a two-hour special on New Zealand's sights and sounds, courtesy of 100% Pure New Zealand and Singapore Airlines (now that caught me by surprise ;) ). Anyway, New Zealand is waaaay :cool: :cool: :)

very, very, very OT but I can't help it, I swoon for the man: Richard Taylor was interviewed. He didn't speak with that adorable drawl that I'd become accustomed to, though. Apparently, he's been with his partner Tania (sp?) for 20 years+ now, and they've been together since they were 15, sharing the same passion for building and creating things. Awww ...

tgshaw

03-03-2003, 08:39 AM

Well, this is The Faculty, so I won't apologize for the length of this post, but she is a wordy one :p !
Originally posted by shilohmm
EW had charted a very careful and sensible acting career to that point, neatly avoiding the pitfall of being typecast, so taking a major role in a film destined to be this big was, I suspect, a caculated risk for him. Maybe it's me, but sf and fantasy films seem to be the worst when it comes to getting typecast, possibly because there's still the concept that "actors aren't really necessary" to those films (i.e., what's important is to get the special effects right), so there's a stigma of "not really a good actor" to someone who is successful with sf or fantasy.
And sf/fantasy movies are also usually overlooked by most award givers (except, of course, for those all-important special effects :rolleyes: ) The recognition given to FotR was incredible for a fantasy movie, and to have TTT also nominated for Best Picture (although I'm sure it won't win) is amazing. Of course, it's happening because they're ground-breaking movies that go beyond the genre, but it's kind of like what women--at least used to--run into; fantasy movies have to be twice as good to get the same recognition. And, of course, that's going to affect acting awards, too.

But I think Sheryl's right in saying it was a calculated risk. This is not a stupid kid (so why does he smoke? :mad: maybe trying to quit biting his nails?--somebody find him a new oral fixation habit, please! :rolleyes: ). The Jim Carrey movie is the third Elijah's acted in since LotR, and they don't feed into any typecasting. He said in one interview that no one had had the [*ahem*] to send him another fantasy script after LotR, but if they had he wouldn't have taken the part. He sounded like a diehard Tolkienite: he said he'd been a part of the best fantasy story ever written--why would he want to do something less? (The same reason I read very little medieval-type fantasy.)

Career-wise, being in a project the size/importance/quality of the LotR movies has gotten him better known (to make a glaring understatement). How many people would be posting in this thread if he hadn't done it? I kind of got a kick out of the fact that when I pre-ordered Ash Wednesday, every movie in the "People who bought this movie also bought..." list on the page was an Elijah Wood movie--not an Ed Burns movie. (That was also true for TT&T, BTW, but let's not go there...)

But, of course, that's 20-20 hindsight. It was a risk, just as much as the whole project was. Up until FotR opened, there was a fear that it would be a total failure, and if it had been it would have been a huge career setback for Elijah, too. But, again, calculated--he knew enough about PJ to trust him to pull off the project and--as has been said--had enough courage and confidence in his own ability to believe he could be successful in the role.

...It's sf and fantasy fans who dissed the book character, so it was pretty much garunteed that EW's character, and his performance of the character, was going to get called a wimp and a failure.
The Star Trek TNG folks came up with something they call "replicative fading," which means very basically that each time you clone a person the quality goes down--A will be healthier than B--then if you clone B, C will be even less healthy, etc. [This is not particularly good science, but, then, that's never been a big concern of Star Trek :p ].

Anyway--there is a point to this--IMHO the same thing is true of Tolclones. [BTW, I love that word but I can't take credit for coming up with it--it's pretty much an accepted term with people who study Tolkien.] Authors have been imitating Tolkien for almost 50 years. There are now authors who've never read Tolkien and are imitating the imitators. Sadly, this is the stuff most fantasy fans--especially the young ones and especially the boys--are reading (that's IMHO, but it seems to be true). That's what they're used to. That's what they're going to want and expect to see in a fantasy movie. If you take a woman who's never read anything but Harlequin romances, tell her you're going to show her this fantastic movie made from a wonderful love story, then sit her down and show her Wuthering Heights... Well, it won't be what she was expecting. It's the "Harlequin romance" fantasy readers PJ has to cater to with the action scenes if he wants them to sit through the intense drama of the real story. But that doesn't mean they're going to like the intense drama, and I'd be surprised if some of them didn't complain about it.

That woman watching Wuthering Heights could have one of two reactions: "Wow..." or "WTF?" And I think the same would be true with "genre" fantasy readers who approach LotR either as a book or movie. Like Wuthering Heights, LotR has to draw people from outside its genre--and it does, and it always has, because it's a great book, not just a great fantasy book. The same has to be true of the LotR movies in order for them to be successful and the evidence is they've done that--but, again, a calculated risk for all involved.

And the "genre" fantasy readers are used to characters who are like Frodo on the surface; the unlikely hero who ends up saving the day is a pretty stock character in the Tolclones--but he is a hero and he does save the day (kind of like Casey in The Faculty). One who considers himself a broken failure at the end is not something they're used to. It's strange how so many authors who try to imitate Tolkien's storytelling go in a direction opposite from his in what underlies the story: that no one is hero on his or her own, and that even victory exacts a price. So, again, Frodo needs to have admirers from outside the genre--and, of course, he does. :k

Edit: ainon--can't believe I forgot to say how gorgeous that large version of the Hamletian Hobbit is. Funny thing about that particular photo shoot--most of the pics from it aren't ones I particularly like--they just don't look like Frodo to me somehow-- but that one is perfect.

Maeglian

03-03-2003, 08:55 AM

About the new required term; I was thinking perhaps.......afterfro?

Deluby, thank you for posting those quotes from Bob Burns. As others have expressed far more eloquently, I also think he his hitting the nail on the head. MovieFrodo and Elijah's many-layered portrayal makes people uncomfortable because it truly challenges ingrained notions of what it is to be courageous, a hero, masculine etc. etc.

I also think that it will take time, and a complete view of the total film trilogy, for EJWs role to receive the recognition and admiration it truly deserves. But I think that recognition is coming, it will be there in the end. Not in terms of an Oscar or the like, I have lost all "hope" that he'll ever be nominated for one of those. But I believe the trilogy will continue to have a significant impact on culture, and be referenced and interpreted in the years to come, and Elijah will be recognized for the amazingly brave role interpretation he delivered ("brave" as in non-conventional, disturbing, challenging, open to ridicule and "he's a girly looking wimp" dismissal).

However, I do not think his performance is being overlooked or discounted today, it's just easier to comment on Viggo Mortensen, somehow. :rolleyes: (Despite this Washington Post Desson Howe person; - one thing I miss from CoE is that barfy smiley, - it would express my feelings upon reading his "review" snippet that Elda posted completely.)

I don't think there is any other character, or actor, receiving half as much attention and being subject to nearly as much discussion and disagreements in LotR fandom circles, as Frodo/Elijah. Look at all the various threads dedicated to him, one way or the other, or the way tempers run high ever so often.

That is the mark of true art: Open to various interpretations, provoking, challenging, emotionally engaging. I think that will increase, not abate, after the trilogy has been seen completed, and I think it'll reach well beyond the core LotR / Fantasy / SF movie fandom. And in the end I think; or hope; the performance will receive the recognition it truly deserves by movie critics and wide and discerning audiences alike.
Just my totally unbiased and very humble opinion, of course..... :D

ainon - hehe, I like that smoking picture. I almost hope he sees that one himself, too.

Edit: Tg, you posted while I was writing. Have to go back read it in detail.

Tathar

03-03-2003, 12:32 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
I don't think there is any other character, or actor, receiving half as much attention and being subject to nearly as much discussion and disagreements in LotR fandom circles, as Frodo/Elijah. Look at all the various threads dedicated to him, one way or the other, or the way tempers run high ever so often.

Well, I can't say I've found that to be true most places. It's been one of the greatest frustrations to me that Frodo is such an underplayed, unappreciated character. Everything is devoted to either Aragorn, Legolas or Sam -- especially Sam. There's a "Nobody Likes Sam" fanclub even, which is the biggest untruth about LotR it seems! :mad: But there are very few Frodo-sites, and most of those exsisting are kind of (gag) fan-girlish (for lack of a better word). True, there are lots of fan-fictions about him, as Frodo-angst might be the second most popular genre (after "Lego-mances," as they're called). But he seems to me to be the most unappreciated character in all of Lord of the Rings.

And I think the reason for this is, again, what everyone's discussed here. (The movie's very underplayed depiction of him hasn't helped much, either! :rolleyes: ) Even though he is much stronger in the book, he is still not your average "hero-type." Just an ordinary little hobbit who certainly doesn't look heroic -- or "manly" or "hunky", to use the terms often used to describe Viggo's Aragorn. ;) It's sad that he's so unappreciated, but hopefully RotK will help us out -- if PJ leaves the Shelob's Lair scene the way it's written!

Again, a bit off-topic here, but speaking of description's for Viggo/Aragorn, you won't believe what my dad told me he's heard Viggo called: "A brooding beef-cake"!! :eek: (That was an a local TV station in Phoenix where my dad was working for a while.) I was hysterical with laughter for at least an hour when I heard that. :D And it's still what I bring to mind when I need a laugh. :rolleyes:

Oh, and one more thing, Maeg:

About the new required term; I was thinking perhaps.......afterfro?

LOL! :p Actually, that might be the best yet! Better than anything I've come up with, anyway... :rolleyes:

Elf-Friend Frodo

03-03-2003, 01:04 PM

Hi!

I started a thread like this over in CoE and someone suggested I come visit you guy, so I did.

I didn't read all 87 pages but read the first 3 or 4. I do have a question...What happen of at CoE? It must have been before I was posting there. Just wondered.

I like EW, and his acting skills. He is very talented. I'm going to go get the list I posted in CoE and post it here BRB

Here is my post from CoE:

My daughter fell in love with EW in LOTR so I have had to search for some of his old films for her.

I just got Disney's Adventure of Huck Finn this week. We sat down and watched it one night and I just had to laugh because some of the scenes were almost like forshadowing his roll in LOTR
Here are some instances.

*He paddles away on a log - reminded me of gollum drifing on the log.

*As he rows away in a canoe his best friend is standing on shore telling him not to do it. - this remded me of the end of FOTR with Sam yelling at him not to go.

*Sitting at a camp fire smoking a pipe with his best friend. - Their night in the wood on their way to Bree

*After being injured he wakes up in a big white bed with fluffy pillows all around him in a soft white night shirt all cleaned for the first time in a long time - Elrond's bedroom.

*Then his best friend comes in to his side and takes his hand - again Elrond's bedroom. (thank you Ian M)

I just thought these were funny. Have you ever noticed anything like this for any of the other actors? Let me know

peaceweaver

03-03-2003, 01:43 PM

Gosh, I was without access to the 'net for two days, and there is sooo much interesting discussion going on. Hope I can catch up!

First things first, welcome to the Lounge Elf-Friend Frod! You have definitely come to the right place! But I am afraid that someone else is going to have to bring you up to speed. It is hard to believe it is already 87 pages since we left CoE.

Thanks to all who posted about Ash Wednesday. The discussion about religious symbolism was very interesting (although i don't find Ed Burns' use of it very enlightening.) As to why film-makers and other producers of popular art so often use Catholic symbolism when they really mean something broader: I think it has a lot to do with the very long tradition of symbolic language that Catholicism has developed over 2000 years. The strong visual statement made by ashes, cruciform poses, rituals, etc. are part of Catholicism's great treasury of symbols bequeathed to Western civilization. What is more, many of the reform (read: protestant) Christian churches, deliberately *avoided* such visual symbols and complicated rituals. So a film-maker almost has to dip into the Catholic well for easily recognized visual material. Now whether they use such material correctly or not, that is another matter! IMHO many film-makers are not well-informed about the core meanings of such elements, so they offend when they probably don't mean to. Others, well, they *mean* to offend!

In a similar vein, the religious symbolism surrounding Gandalf in FoTR and TTT seems to me to be focused more on his "Resurrection" than his fall. Of course the cruciform pose he adopted during the fall in Moria (into darkness?) is extremely conventional. The halo effect used in his first reappearance in TTT has a long pedigree in images of Christ's resurrection. Now what that is supposed to imply about Gandalf, I am not sure...Gandalf as Christ figure?

The picture juxtaposing EW and David was v. lovely. Big :k
And Sheryl, I know Renaissance artists in general used the Golden rectangle as an artistic device. I am not certain about Michelangelo, especially in his sculpted work; he probably *did* use it in his architecture.

And Sheryl, if you DO come to Chicago to visit the Art Institute, let me know! OK?

I do love that comment by Bob Burns about Elwood's "sacrifice" in making LoTR. (Let's not make him TOO much like Frodo, though, please?) Frodo is NOT your conventional "hero" type at all; Tolkien's vision for Frodo is profoundly affected by his own experience of WWI. Hardened soldiers were broken by the Front, by the scale of the death, by the futility of the sacrifices made. They doubted whether they succeeded, even as Frodo does.

I agree with Burns that EW's performance as Frodo is very brave. No stops left unpulled. No heartstrings left unplucked. And I haven't even seen RoTK yet! Every decision he has made since principal filming stopped, from taking the role in Ash Wednesday to shaving his head seems calculated to establish that Elijah Wood is more than Frodo Baggins. As much as I love the Frohlijah phenomenon, I say, "Vive la difference!"

Oh and Goldie: you said it, girl!

Elf-Friend Frodo

03-03-2003, 01:46 PM

AHHHHHH! I just realized I left the last 'o' out of my name. Is there any way to fix that ?:eek:

erendis

03-03-2003, 02:55 PM

Wecome to khazaddum, EFF! :D I think I was the one that brought you here. Oh, but be prepared, we are very scientific! :eek: We nicknamed ourselves "The Faculty" in honor of an Elijah Wood movie, and in honor of our own tendency to be academically long-winded. :o I hope you enjoy posting here.

[COE History Lesson]
Because this is a thread about Elijah Wood's acting (or sometimes Elijah Wood in general), and includes a lot of Movie/LotR/Frodo discussion, the moderators at CoE couldn't decide if the thread belonged in the Fandom forum, the Movie Forum, or the off-topic Prancing Pony. At various times the thread was seen as too "off-topic" no matter what forum they put it in. After some dragging around and some -- err -- discussion and disagreement :rolleyes:, the entire thread chose to move to this "sister site," started by a CoE poster and with many overlapping CoE members, where the rules for "off-topicness" are looser.
[/COE History Lesson]

If you want to change your name, I think Moggy, the site owner, can do it, but you'd have to ask a moderator (Elevensies or Hallah). They know what to do.

I can't comment on the HucK Finn because I have not seen it, and I'm still not sure I can. A year ago I had to swear off Elijah Wood movies because I had developed a massive FotR obsession and a (thankfully) short-lived crush on Elijah Wood himself, and had difficulty separating the actor from the role; to the point where I would not have been able to handle seeing Elijah as Casey or Barney or Mikey, or anyone, except Frodo. The crush and obsession are fading (I no longer get little tummy flips when I see red-carpet pix or screencaps), but I still haven't seen other Elijah movies.

-------------

New Troutworthy Theory -- please critique or trout, after all this is the Faculty, it's what we do!:

Something's been bugging me since we documented the Eye Twitch/Cheese Puff. Is it just me, or are Elijah's acting expressions fixed, and he just keeps picking ones out until the director sees the one he likes? It seems that Elijah has a repetoire where his facial muscles move into the exact same positions for a certain emotion. Is this why the Froshadowings are so easy to spot? Has Elijah been (unconciously) working his facial muscles into the same mathematically discrete combinations for years?

The Sauron HeartAttack moment and the "Dead? How?" scene incorporate emotions that are galaxies apart, yet the Eye twitch is nearly identical for both. This leads me to believe that PJ asked specifically for that facial expression. Envision: "Hey Elijah, look like somebody told you something horrible and you're just realizing the implications of it. Good. Hey Elijah, do that heart-attack Eye twitch. Okay, now do that Eye twitch again. Great. Now look frightened. No no, the other frightened, like the one you did two months ago in Bag End. Yeah, that one. Good."

It reminds me rather of a performing pianist who can take almost any request repeatedly, but doesn't write his own music. Not only that, but his performance of a piece is the same every time. Is this part of the reason that the quality of Elijah's acting seems to be directly tied to the quality of the director? Compare this to someone like Viggo or Ian McKellen, who both -- now that I think about it -- felt so natural in their parts, as if they were bringing part of themselves into the acting. I don't mean this in the "he's always been just Harrison Ford" way. It's as if they both -- Viggo especially --put their own spin on a scene, while Elijah, on the other hand, is more dependent on PJ. On the FotR August DVD, I saw PJ praising Viggo for playing Aragorn "like a real person" and I've heard of Ian McK and Chris Lee and Sean Astin arguing with how to say a line, but I've heard of no such situations with Elijah. Does Elijah just do what he's told (very very well)?

This does not disparage Elijah's acting talent. After all, he has dozens of these facial muscle combinations, wherein lies his talent. Total off-topic analogy: You could say that some good actors have a style that is likened to a true circle, using their own facial expressions (I guess this would be "method") while Elijah's acting is a discrete 200-sided polygon. Not quite a circle, but you wouldn't be able to tell unless you've read all 87 pages of the Faculty. :rolleyes: If Elijah had only -- say -- 4 facial combinations instead of 200, would he be seen as wooden and choppy? Are those 196 other possible combinations the only thing that separates him from the wooden and choppy Keanu Reeves?

One could argue that the Elijah calculated style is a less "natural" acting, but I think it's more dependable, provided you have a good director. Method-type may seem more rewarding -- we were very very lucky with Viggo -- but the success rate is very low. And when it falls flat, it really falls flat. I can't think of a real example except for Sean Astin's occasional slip-ups, which can be quote noticable. But Elijah, calculated or no, seems to nail this stuff every time.

Either way, I really have to :bow down: to PJ for his directing. Elijah and Viggo, and Liv and the Seans and Orli etc, all have incredibly different acting styles, yet they all acted very well. PJ must have had to modify his directing style to suit whichever actor he was directing at the time. Amazing! It's been quoted that a lot of RotK especially those character scenes that were not directly overseen by PJ, Fran, or Barrie Osborne, will be directly re-shot (not pick-up, but the original script) because the acting was unsatisfactory. I wonder if the other secondary directors just did not have this ability to adapt to the situation.

Maeglian

03-03-2003, 03:59 PM

Hi, Elf-Friend Frodo!

Compare this to someone like Viggo or Ian McKellen, who both -- now that I think about it -- felt so natural in their parts, as if they were bringing part of themselves into the acting. I don't mean this in the "he's always been just Harrison Ford" way. It's as if they both -- Viggo especially --put their own spin on a scene, while Elijah, on the other hand, is more dependent on PJ.
Couldn't this have something to do with the age he was at that time, rather than the actor he may develop to be when some more years go by? It seems reasonable to me that the older actors with vastly more life and also acting experience behind them would more easily bring something of themselves to the role than a 18 year old would do, no matter how many films he acted in as a child and teenager. That way I suppose it is only reasonable that he was relying more heavily on PJ. After all, he hadn't read the book, so he had the script and PJ's direction as main source of understanding and interpreting his character. It must have been difficult for a happy well-adapted teenager to interpret and understand the character of Frodo and what happens with him, to him, through him........

Having an exceptionally large and well-working repertoire of "pre-defined" expressions could certainly help both actor and director gap any bridge between EJW's youth and the complexity and increasing darkness of the character he was playing.

But what do we know specifically of PJ's direction of Elijah? Did he ever specifically ask for certain expressions in specific scenes, or did he explain what Frodo was going though, give the motivation and what he would be feeling in each scene, in slightly more general terms to leave the final interpretation to Elijah?

There are several interviews where EJW explains how they discussed very thoroughly what was happening to Frodo in more general terms, and where he "needed to go", and the deterioration of his body and mind, and the impact the Ring was having...... to ensure a common understanding and insight between actor and director into the totality of the character and his development, far beyond each single scene, certainly?

Now I'm wondering whether this is beside the point you raise, Erendis. :o I guess my reply is, it probably won't be fair to judge whether he *is* a Keanu Reeves :eek: with a lot more available facial expressions until some more years, and more films, and more real life experiences have gone by. But I do think there *is* more to him as an actor than that.

-----------------

Tathar - I obviously have not been cruising the net enough to judge which character is receiving the most attention - I guess I mostly base my opinion on a few select message boards and Tolkien news sites, where the Frodo character and EJW *is* being discussed in depth (if not always applauded).

I'm still holding out hope though that Frodo / EJW wins out when it comes to the *quality* of discussion and fan attention, if not in the *quantity* of dedicated web pages......... :D

shilohmm

03-03-2003, 03:59 PM

Welcome, Elf-Friend Frodo!
I thought we'd pretty much exhausted the Froshadowing in Huck Finn, but you've proved me wrong. Or at any rate, I don't remember discussing the parallels in paddling away from a friend before. Cool!

ainon,
That smoking pic gave me a chuckle, but of course the Hameletian Hobbit isn't working for me. Mutter mutter.

I haven't wandered many other LOTR discussion boards, but I think the great relief some people mention when they first find the Harem and the Faculty support Tathar's observation that Frodo isn't particularly appreciated among LOTR fandom as a whole. Prior to reading LORT myself, I certainly heard more about the wizards and humans than I did about the hobbits, except for one brilliant essay that I ran across somewhere discussing the parallels between Frodo and Gollum.

Originally posted by peaceweaver

And Sheryl, if you DO come to Chicago to visit the Art Institute, let me know! OK?

Okay, but I might have nearly a half dozen chillins in tow. :D

You know, I don't believe I've ever been to the Art Institute in Chicago. I used to vist the Denver Art Museum right regular when we were there, but the only ones I remember visiting in Chicago are the Field Museum and the Museum of Science and Industry. Is the Art Institute where the Monet exhibit was? My mom and sister went for that.

Originally posted by erendis
Is this part of the reason that the quality of Elijah's acting seems to be directly tied to the quality of the director? Compare this to someone like Viggo or Ian McKellen, who both -- now that I think about it -- felt so natural in their parts, as if they were bringing part of themselves into the acting. <CLIP>Does Elijah just do what he's told (very very well)?

Oooo, erendis - you are definitely crusin' for a brusin'. :D

I expect EW's expressions are sometimes similar because he's using the same skeleton and musculature to accomplish them. :p I think the director can make a difference in that he helps EW dig into the part, but I don't think the director is the whole story.

Originally posted by erendis

But Elijah, calculated or no, seems to nail this stuff every time.

Yes, and not just in PJ's production. I think EW does a better job with solid support from those he's working with - but so does everyone. Good actors and a good director do tend to bring out more from their fellows. But EW so often does a better job than his fellow actors in various productions that it can't be just that EW follows direction well. I think it's more important that he really understand the character he's playing. A good director can help with that, of course, but it isn't totally necessary.

Originally posted by erendis

It's been quoted that a lot of RotK especially those character scenes that were not directly overseen by PJ, Fran, or Barrie Osborne, will be directly re-shot (not pick-up, but the original script) because the acting was unsatisfactory.

Where did you hear this, please? I missed that. Or forgot it. :rolleyes:

Sheryl

erendis

03-03-2003, 04:35 PM

Got it. Mormegil (at CoE) found it at DarkHorizons. I don't have the link, but this is the snippet:LOTR: The Return of the King: 'Starjay' has an update on the third film, its reshoots and some FX difficulties: "ROTK is suppose to run in the 3.5-4 hour range, P.J. can use as much time as he needs to finish the story. Most of the actors will be returning to New Zealand for reshoots before the ROTK release. There were two other film crews that were filming other than P.J. and Barry Osbourne/Fran Walsh and P.J. was allegedly very disappointed with the direction and the acting. All of these scenes will be reshot, and the director has a lot of work to do before the release. I was told that the battle scenes for ROTK would be much more difficult this time, as opposed to Helm's Deep. HD was easy due to the darkness and the rain, it hides a lot of sins. The Battle of Pelannor Fields and the stand at the Black Gate won't be in the dark although it's not completely daylight either".
Good point Maegelin, that EW will be growing into his acting. Meaning, he'll just get better and better as he get older. Sheryl, I'm pretty sure that Elijah easily converted the word directions into acting. He didn't need to be told specifically "Here, arrange you muscles that way." But I am starting to see identical microexpressions, with no fuzz in between. Integers with no fractions? So, if PJ says "Frodo is a junkie and hates it, so when that Nazgul shows up, you have to act like you're just full of ecstacy to give up this horrible burden" EW would pull out his standard "ecstacy" facial expression? If Frodo claims the Ring, and PJ says "ecstacy" again, will we see the exact same microexpression?

Luthiea

03-03-2003, 05:34 PM

Hi everyone, hope you're all okay.

Belated Happy Birthday to Bunnie and Peaceweaver :k

Real life has been keeping me away from the Faculty, both reading and posting - needs some reassuring - do you all still remember me? :( :p

I watched my tape of Child in the Night today, I think EW was about the only convincing actor in it! But it was okay, even though I knew what happened at the end ;)

I'll catch up with all these posts soon, hopefully.

x

Narya Celebrian

03-03-2003, 07:06 PM

Originally posted by erendis
If Elijah had only -- say -- 4 facial combinations instead of 200, would he be seen as wooden and choppy? Are those 196 other possible combinations the only thing that separates him from the wooden and choppy Keanu Reeves?

Darn, wouldn't I be happy if I had 200 possible facial expression combinations? I bet I rarely use more than ten on any given day...;)

I guess it all depends on what your standards for acting are. Facial expression is one aspect - body language, voice, repression of self while expressing character - they all contribute to how we 'see' a character emerge. I suspect that if we spent this much time studying any other actor (or actress) we would discover that even the best repeated some minor aspects of their facial expression, and even major aspects of facial expression. Mel Gibson, Tom Hanks, Harrison Ford - no matter how 'different' the characters they play, there is always, to some extent, some similarity in how they play them (and in some cases a LOT of similarity) - because the guy inhabiting the skin is the same. I suspect most directors would be THRILLED with 200 facial expressions.

I don't think the similarities with Huck Finn call into question whether EW has sufficient range, because the characters are called upon to experience too many similar things to expect there to be no echoing of expression. More valid, perhaps, would be comparisons with other movies, such as The Faculty, or The Ice Storm, or Bumblebee. I certainly never saw a trace of Casey or Mikey on screen during FotR or TTT (thank goodness!)

The only other actor from FotR I've done screencaps of in another movie was Sean Astin in Rudy, and there were most certainly moments there where his facial expression could be said to 'look like Sam.' I don't think that necessarily calls into question his acting ability or range - I just think we don't usually look that closely to see how expressions might re-occur in a movie, or between movies.

Ian McKellen is an awesome actor, no question - but he is called upon to express a much narrower range of emotions as Gandalf than EW is called upon to express as Frodo. And I know I've seen even the great Sir Ian use exactly the same eye krinkle to express wry amusement several times - IMO this doesn't make him a lesser actor, but a greater one, because the expression is bang on every time. So this is how I judge EW's abilities as well. He has a wide variety of emotions to express, and every one is so true, so real, that we buy into it right away. In effect, we don't 'see' EW acting - we only see Frodo behaving.

This ties in with what we in the Harem have commented on at length (and with an enthusiasm which I will restrain myself from expressing here :p ) and that is EW's amazing ability to move in and out of the role of Frodo. Watching production footage, you can see exactly the moment when filming starts or stops when he BECOMES Frodo, or CEASES to be Frodo and becomes EW again. There is a marked and sudden change when his own personality reappears, and that has reinforced for me how amazing he is as an actor. Method actors move slowly in and out of character, as they compose themselves to 'become' - but here is this young guy who can do it instantaneously, seemingly without thought.

ainon

03-03-2003, 09:01 PM

Welcome Elf-Friend Frodo! Pop back four or five pages in this thread and you'll see pictorial Huck Finn to Frodo comparisons. :)

Maeg:
There are several interviews where EJW explains how they discussed very thoroughly what was happening to Frodo in more general terms, and where he "needed to go", and the deterioration of his body and mind, and the impact the Ring was having...... to ensure a common understanding and insight between actor and director into the totality of the character and his development, far beyond each single scene, certainly?

In the CHUD.com interview (which I can't seem to find right now :rolleyes: ) Elijah talked about what work went into what scenes. Specifically he was talking about the 'trance' elements for Frodo. However there are other interviews with the cast that suggest while PJ is a stickler for accuracy while filming, the actual characterisation is owned by the actor.

The thing is, since we are talking about Frodo, we would expect Frodo to have the same repertoire of expressions. EW's job would be to make everything identifiable and recognisable to us. The reason I immediately spotted the 'cheek puff' was because to me that looked very real. That is what someone looks like when coughing - EW makes no effort to try and make it look less silly. Then, each time he goes into a trance, we recognise that immediately. What makes EW interesting to study though, is that despite the similarities, there are differences. The first trance in FotR wasn't precisely duplicated in TTT, IMHO. I personally don't see much similarity between the 'heart attack' and the "Dead? How? When?" scene although of course the basic pattern is there, because he is still Frodo. But I would expect to spot if there's any similarity between the Emyn Muil 'heart attack' and the shock he got at the CoE in FotR because those two incidents are basically the same, with Emyn Muil being worse and requiring a greater reaction. Then again, even in scenes which can be compared and contrasted as almost identical in terms of emotion: the WiKi bearing down on Frodo vs. Faramir coming at Frodo - the expressions on his face and his body language are different, befitting the fact that despite the outward similarities, Frodo is dealing with very different circumstances.

As for acting techniques, so far nobody's ever revealed EW's secrets for how he gets to cry. ;) A lot of kid actors are bullied into crying but I didn't get the impression that Huck Finn's director ever had to resort to that, so EW might have learned very early on to perform precisely what he's supposed to perform to produce the precise results, even when he doesn't necessarily 'get it' which btw, was something Jaoquin (sp?) Phoenix implied was what he did when he was a child actor. Phoenix grew up and learned though, and we have interviews where EW tells us the same, that's he's learned. We needn't worry about his 'getting' Frodo, I think. :)

Anyway, just to add an example to what Narya's said so well, watch Dustin Hoffman movies one after the other and you'll immediately spot the 'repeats'. Doesn't take much effort to try and match his "Are you seducing me, Mrs. Robinson?" moment in The Graduate with something in say Kramer vs. Kramer or even Tootsie. He's a method actor, but he doesn't change much between movies, IMO: there's the distinctive DH murmur and the distinctive DH shouting-with-great-emotion that never wavers. What works though is the overall performance that convinces the viewer that DH is a different person in each movie. So far, in spite of the Froshadowings we've all done, I think those are all superficial foreshadowings, and not exactly seeing EW being Frodo when he shouldn't have been.

Narya:
... that is EW's amazing ability to move in and out of the role of Frodo. Watching production footage, you can see exactly the moment when filming starts or stops when he BECOMES Frodo, or CEASES to be Frodo and becomes EW again.

Glad to know I'm not the only one spending way too much time watching and rewatching those bits, then. :D

Catch up soon, Luthiea :k

Flourish

03-03-2003, 09:58 PM

I don't know how helpful this might be because I can't remember where I read them, but I do recall two things Elijah Wood said about his acting that I found interesting.

The first was in reference to his never having studied acting per se--in an interview where he talked about his early career I recall that he said he simply "understood what people felt" and was able to express it.

The other thing is about the crying--he (or one of the other hobbit boys but I'm pretty sure it was Elijah) said--in the actors' commentary?--that he listened to music before shooting crying scenes and that in fact most of the actors did. I think this was in reference to the scene of the Fellowship mourning the loss of Gandalf.

Now that I think of it, it really *had* to be Elijah who said it, didn't it. He does most of the crying.:p

deluby

03-04-2003, 02:38 AM

Welcome Elf-Friend Frodo!

Am enjoying reading all the posts. :) Had a long day today, so don't have much energy/time to reply, http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/sorry.gif just dropping off a pic.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/frodoroom.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/bigeyes.gif

I'll send the Harem a copy too. ;)

Eagles' Eyrie

03-04-2003, 03:06 AM

(((((Faculty))))) - I love you guys!!! I've been away for a while and it took me all last night to catch up - what interesting discussions - jacks, skipping, religion, acting methods!! You guys are the best.

I loved Bob's comments about Elijah and the risk he took. Anybody else think he'd make a perfect Faculty member.

Very belated Happy Birthday to BunnieBugs and Peaceweaver (glad to have you back as yourself PW) :)

Elf-Friend Frodo - WELCOME!!! I'm glad you've found us - sounds like you'll fit right in.

Anybody know where Blossom has been hanging out recently. I'd love to know about her second viewing of The Movie.

Luth: I was just about to ask you about Child In The Night - tell us more about it.

I have nothing very significant to add at the moment - just keep up the good work.

PS: Duluby - is that the bedroom in BagEnd?? Where did you find that???

PPS: Happy Mardi Gras to everybody :D

ainon

03-04-2003, 04:21 AM

deluby :k :) Cool! Frodo's bedroom! So perfectly hobbity.

Sigh. Today is the Muslim New Year and a holiday but I'm kinda stuck in the lab. So to justify time spent here, I of course took advantage of the Net access. ;)

Ladies, you may now download a HUGE hi res version of this pic:

http://www.moviepublicity.com/image_assets/lotr3__FRODO_HR-.jpg

hi res version (http://www.moviepublicity.com/image_assets/lotr3__FRODO_HR.zip)

Originally posted by Flourish
Now that I think of it, it really *had* to be Elijah who said it, didn't it. He does most of the crying.:p

Close, but not quite. ;) It was Billy Boyd, during the I-Con Q&A last year. Someone asked him, "What did you think about when you had to cry after Gandalf's death?" and this was the reply:

He explained that for a particular scene, they might be doing it over and over again all day. He had to cry in the morning, then stop for some lunch, then start crying again after lunch for a different camera angle, etc. Billy said that just thinking about all those takes were enough to make a person cry! He then said that he would often listen to music he found sad just before coming on the set, and sometimes while on set to help him with the crying scenes. He also said he basically just thought about things that made him sad.

Read the rest here (http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/7/1019450412), and there's Grey Havens *spoilers* here (http://www.theonering.net/features/newsroom/files/050102_billyboyd.html)

Should I be worried that I am able to remember and trace these quotes, when I couldn't for the life of me remember how to calculate Molarities earlier this morning? Never mind. :o

For more nostalgia, you can revisit Elijah's first interview as Frodo Baggins: Frodo Speaks: An Exclusive Q&A with Elijah Wood (http://www.eonline.com/Features/Specials/Lordrings/Location/000201.html) from way back in Feb 2000.

You're right, Eyrie. We really ought to invite Bob over here. ;)

ps. Because I happened to come across these, I'll repost 'em. Why, yes, I do tend to engage in abuse of bandwidth when I'm stuck at work on my New Year's day. :p

http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/media/darsteller/faramir/Frodofaramirring2.jpg
http://www.herr-der-ringe-film.de/media/darsteller/faramir/Frodofaramirring.jpg

Elf-Friend Frodo

03-04-2003, 07:55 AM

Is that EW on his knees or is that the mini Frodo with his mask on? The first one looks like Mini Frodo and the second one looks like Lij on his knees. that MO

Tathar

03-04-2003, 08:05 AM

Elf-Friend Frodo, welcome!! I'm new, myself, but as you've already noticed, it's not hard to feel at home here! I'm sure you'll enjoy your stay with us. :D (And IMVHO, that looks like EW on his knees in both pics, or maybe blue screen.)

ainon, isn't that a wonderful pic? It gives hope that PJ might leave Shelob's Lair as it was written and give Frodo his chance to shine (without Sam's help! :rolleyes: )!!

deluby, my gosh, where did you get that pic?? :eek: I have to confess, I squealed when I saw it -- Frodo's bedroom, just as I imagined it!! But tsk, tsk, Frodo, there's an awful lot of clutter there... kind of looks like my room. :rolleyes: Where is Sam to clean up when you need him?

shilohmm

03-04-2003, 10:06 AM

Originally posted by erendis
But I am starting to see identical microexpressions, with no fuzz in between. Integers with no fractions?

Oh, pooh and nonsense. :p I think you need to review tgshaw's brilliant write up of the scene where Bilbo sees the ring in Rivendell, myself. Plenty of "fractional" expressions there, I think!

http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id142.htm

I always suspected there was more going on in that scene than I was picking up, and I think tg pegged what I was missing. :cool:

And I agree with Maeglian that EW's talent is still growing, and with Narya that, if we researched *any* actor as thoroghly as we have EW, we'd run across similar expressions. I've noticed McKellan has the same expression here and there as well, and I haven't been studying him with nearly the intensity I've given EW's performance.

Luthiea,
I saw a post by you or saw you were lurking over at CoE, and grumbled to myself that you hadn't posted in the Faculty in forever - does that count? :D

I'm still catching up on the thread; I'm up to page 66 and haven't yet run across Luthiea's Flipper review. I'm assuming it's there, though, right? Right? ;)

ainon,
Hey, cool. I spent an inordinate amount of time drooling over the copy of that picture Elevensies posted on page 65 or so last night, long enough to fix it in my brain so I could look at it while falling asleep. I hadn't seen a clear copy before. I thought someone in the Harem said they could see Shelob behind him there, but if so I don't see it.

It's odd, but I am much more fascinated by the picture of Frodo with the phial than I am with Sam and Frodo at CU. I think it's because Frodo looks so determined and desperate there, and because I know what's coming. The anticipation - but you'd think I'd be anticipating Frodo in the tower with the Sam and Frodo one, and I don't. I wonder how I'll feel after I've actually seen the two events on film - which will be my favorite then, that is.

Just full of deep thought this morning. :rolleyes: Too many pictures, that's the trouble. ;) I'm still hoping to see more of Faramir and Frodo on the DVD, and to be able to put the pictures ainon posted in context. It looks terrifically angsty, and I *want* that scene. Haven't seen anything listed that looks likely, though. *sigh*

I think they're both EW on his knees with (presumably) forced perspective, Elf-Friend. And I suspect these shots are not from precisely where the film camera would be.

deluby,
Is that picture of Frodo's room off one of the discs?

Sheryl

tgshaw

03-04-2003, 02:29 PM

Narya--Elijah's popping in and out of character was talked about quite a bit in this thread too, but it's been awhile. IIRC, what started the discussion were some production stills of the scene where the hobbits are hiding under the tree in the Shire. The change from terrified Frodo to laughing Elwood was instantaneous.

------------

This is when research gets fun :p --two incompatible theories! We've got the microexpression theory on one side, which is based on the idea that a lot (not all) of Elijah's small changes in facial expression are unconscious on his part--they just "happen" as he puts himself into the character's mindset. Now we have... let's see... the repertoire theory?... which is based on him consciously pulling out a certain emotion from his "collection."

I'll admit I'm biased toward the microexpression theory, because it seems to explain so much of what I've seen in Elijah's acting since peaceweaver first brought up the whole microexpression thing. Some supporting evidence (much of which has been mentioned already):

When he's in character, it's impossible (at least, it's never been done as far as I know) to catch him in a frame where he's out of character or "switching" from one emotion/expression to another--in other words, he never makes a bad screencap, unlike most of the other actors even in LotR, whom you can occasionally catch in a momentary lapse. IMHO this is because he segues so seamlessly from one emotion to another, as a person normally would, rather than "jumping" from one to another. I think the not-quite-right screencaps for a lot of other actors are taken just as they're making that jump. I'm not going to say that's "bad acting"--it's really not noticeable when the film is at full speed, which is where they're "aiming" their acting, after all. But I do think the difference is one reason why Elijah's acting looks especially natural. [Hmmm... are the moments that don't seem as natural possibly at places where he does have to make a really fast switch from one emotion to another? Maybe those are more difficult for him, without the segue in between?]

His facial expressions and body language do seem to be largely character-dependant, which wouldn't be as true if he were "putting on" a particular look. There seems to be a lot of "overlap" between Huck and Frodo--but, as has been said, those situations and even the characters themselves have a lot in common. And, of course, even Huck and Frodo don't spend most of their time looking like each other.

On the other hand, there are situational froshadowings with Casey (hiding behind the lockers like Frodo does behind the pillar), but I don't know that there are many facial expression froshadowings. I've posted one froshadowing of Mikey, but that's about it with that character. I really tried to find one of Barney when I got that DVD, but came away empty-handed even though I was on the lookout (and at that time I did chalk it up to the differences between the characters). I've posted two of Sean--one having to do mostly with the fact that he's wearing a jacket with the hood up, and the other a fairly good emotional match with one shot of Frodo--but that's all I've seen (and I was looking for those, too).

But Mark is a different story. He doesn't show as many Frodo-similarities as Huck does, but there are a number of them. Is that because Mark's in some similar situations? And it's not just that Elijah played Mark and Huck at a similar age. He played (oh,oh--not sure of the name) Nat (?) at around that age, too, and Nat is fairly froshadowless--maybe because he's a basically happy, normal kid who isn't in a struggle to survive?

The Artful Dodger does have some Frodo-like expressions, but not a lot of them. OTOH, I don't remember seeing any from Sandy. Interesting difference between the situations those two characters are in, too.

...That's only about half of Elijah's roles, but then we start getting into some I don't remember very well. I don't think his characters act or look or emote alike any more than any other actor's characters--and, in general, I'd say his do it even less. Which makes sense if the other actors are method actors. As I understand it, method actors try to put themselves into a situation and ask themselves how they would feel and act if it happened to them. So, basically, they're always starting from themselves as a reference point. OTOH, whenever Elijah talks about that part of his acting he never says he puts himself into the situation--he says he puts the character into that situation and asks how the character would react--not himself. Which is probably why he spends so much effort on understanding a character--the character is his reference point, not himself.

--------Much later: This has been sitting under my Word program for a l-o-n-g time as I waited for a time I could send it, so I'm sure there's been posting since I started it! And I'll probably even think of more to say later!

Luthiea

03-04-2003, 05:19 PM

Hi all, am back again!

Hi to EFF - I just said hi to you in the Hugs Haven but welcome to The Faculty! I like your Huck Finn/LOTR parallels!

ainon - hope you're enjoying New Year! And hope work's not too annoying - but you can always come here for a break, right?! ;)

Thanks Sheryl! {{Hugs}} My Flipper review?! :p I better get watching it again! ;)

tg - interesting theories there! Yes, I love how he just 'becomes' himself again at the tree root scene and the others are still their characters.

I really need to read about 3 pages back - so many thoughts and info! Might take some time!

Okay, I've finished reading!

I love that little bed! It looks so cozy! Thanks for the pic, deluby! Thanks also for those Oscar quotes - interesting reading.

It's been interesting to read all the Ash Wednesday reviews. I'd like to see it, just cos he's in it - I wonder if it'll be released over here soon? One question (just for the sake of it ;) ) for those how have seen it - do you think that Elijah's performance was affected in any way by starting filming Ash Wednesday so soon after finishing LOTR? Correct me if I'm wrong but he wasn't long back from NZ when he did AW? From doing such a big movie, to a relatively small one?

Thanks to Elda for those quotes on EW's appearance. Maybe some people are jealous or intimidated by Elijah's beauty? Also I lol at that guy calling Frods a 'game little hobbit' like he's setting out on the quest akin to going on a merry adventure, not some suicide mission! :p And "it's not really acting, it's face-making!" Wtf? I think Mr Howe really needs to pay a visit to The Faculty to get his mind changed on that one! :D

About possible typecasting and taking the role of Frodo - I for one am glad the Elijah's happy to choose very different and demanding roles - ones that he finds interesting.

EE - not long now till Dublin! Will have to watch Child in the Night again before I can say much about it (you know what I'm like!), I was doing other stuff as it was on, and was only really paying attention when a certain adorable 9 year old was in shot!

Am seeing TT for the 6th time tomorrow night, can't wait!

Cheers n hugs,

Luth

Tathar

03-04-2003, 05:22 PM

Great job, tg, I too lean more towards the microexpression theory. Love the avatar, too -- a very book-Frodo moment, I think. ;)

Oh, and btw, I've finally succeeded in screencapping! I'm using PowerDVD, which saves the captures to a folder within the program, as you said. Finally! :D Thanks for your help!

ainon

03-05-2003, 01:59 AM

Might want to check this out (I haven't looked at it yet. don't dare download it at work): The Hobbit Teaser Trailer - by Steve Latham (http://www.lathamfilm.com/hobbit%20teaser%20trailer%20-%20by%20steve%20latham.mpg).

Originally posted by Tathar
ainon, isn't that a wonderful pic? It gives hope that PJ might leave Shelob's Lair as it was written and give Frodo his chance to shine (without Sam's help! :rolleyes: )!!

:eek: Sam had better help him, or it's gonna be one very short story! :p :D

I prefer the pic of Frodo & Sam myself - that one was like something plucked right out of my imagination (only I never knew it till I saw the pic), but what I like about the phial pic is that it's making me look forward to a little thing: how and when Frodo will remember that he has the phial with him. That precise moment when Galadriel's "May it be a light for you when all other lights go out" suddenly makes sense. Personally I love the foreshadowing in those lines, and I like that the words were meant for Frodo alone. So will it be a case of Frodo remembering and bringing the light out, so that the audience will gasp and go, 'cool!'; or will the audience remember before Frodo and urge him to remember the light.

Microexpression vs repertoire, eh? ;) Well, EW is a professional actor so I'll throw in the suggestion that he could easily rely on both. "Dead? When? How?" is actually kind of a repertoire thing, in that he's relying on stock actor reaction to express the 'Oh no!' feeling of the moment to the audience. The camera stays on him through that moment too, also a stock technique. The microexpression kicks in though, when he doesn't overact the moment the way most actors would (any TV episode of any TV show will give us that). We do get the general 'Oh no!' feeling, but we have to also watch him to get it, because EW is being in character: Frodo has to keep his emotions in check while he's facing Faramir.

And you're right, tg, about Forever Young's Nat. Which reminds me of an observation I'd made. In TTT, we see Frodo chewing on his lembas with his mouth open, right? Now, some people do that, I ain't judging 'em ;) but the Faculty question is, was that EW chewing with his mouth open, or EW being Frodo chewing with his mouth open? (yeah, I know, in character-wise, Frodo *was* very tired and very unhappy about his food but we'll ignore that variable right now). Now, in Forever Young there're several scenes where we see Nat eating. He chews with his mouth closed, even when he's stuffed his cheeks with junkfood. :D So there you go. My Faculty contribution for the day. EW is perfectly adaptable to chewing techniques/manners, depending on character requirements. :p

deluby

03-05-2003, 04:13 AM

This post maybe image intensive.

I've been reading erendis's post back and forth for several times and while I agree that he does use the eye twitch a lot(and may I add eyebrow twitch as well), I don't think those twitches are the same. I went back and took a good look at the many-faces-of-fro collage gif I did several weeks ago and I think he looks different in every frame, even in those with the same/similar eye twitch. I've always been fascinated by that, I mean I don't know if it's because of the wig or the make-up, he just never looked exactly the same to me. Within the two LOTR films, I don't think I saw any scene that reminded me of any of his previous expressions. But there's one scene in FOTR that reminded me of Mikey almost instantly. It's right before Galadriel says "will you look into the mirror?"

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/fromikey.jpg

As for "fractional" expressions, the one impressed me the most is when Sam says "you can't take your eyes off it. I've seen you." You can see how his facial muscles move and within that 3 seconds you can feel his mood changes. The reason I think that one is the most impressive is because it was a continuous shot, which means there was no cutting/editing involved and it was only about 3 to 4 seconds long. If we were to talk about the most dramatic expression change, it'll be the Sting-at-Sam's-throat scene, but that one is a lot longer and cuts back and forth between him and Sam. So the end result could be many takes edited together.
Here's the pictorial demonstration of the scene I was talking about.

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/iveseenusm.jpg (http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/iveseenu.jpg)

I've never been good at discussion, and trying to explain something in a second language is even more frustrating for me, so I tend to use pictures to show my point.(not sure if I actually have a point :o :p)

The two pictures below are collages of most of the frames I used in the collage gif I posted before. I think still images are better than animations when it comes to research. ;) Since we are discussing about "MICROexpression" here, I think it's better not to shrink those pics, right? And of course, all in the name of research. ;) http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/magnify.gif The ones direct linked here are smaller versions because otherwise it'll take up too much of KD's bandwidth and would take forever for dial-up users. Just click on the image and it'll open up a new window with the original sized picture. (same with the "I've seen you" cap above, I edited it because direct linking it stretches the post too wide)
Apology to modem users. http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/sorry.gif

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/colfotrsm.jpg (http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/colfotr.jpg)

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/coltttsm.jpg (http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/colttt.jpg)

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I was going to post another article from Bob Burns called "Frodo's Sacrifice" which he posted over the weekend because we were talking about religious symbolism at the time, but I realized I probably should have asked for his permission first so I held off till I got his approval today. So here it is. I apologize for going back to old topics (I've always been a bit behind :o) but I think the Faculty can handle various discussion at the same time, right? ;)Posted by Bob Burns @ Oscarwatch/LOTR forum:
Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject: Frodo's Sacrifice

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from Evil."

My experience interpreting Tolkien is that the answers to questions of meaning are almost always opposites in tension. Tolkien scholar, TA Shippey has pointed out that The Lord's Prayer gives us two interpretations of evil balanced in the same line: evil as a personal failing and Evil as an outside incarnate force, an understanding of evil that is reflected in LOTR and Tolkien's writing generally.

By the end of FOTR, Frodo understands that by going forward he is choosing what he believes to be certain damnation. I don't mean our current Christian concept of damnation, but damnation as has been revealed to him through his encounters with the Wraiths and the Ring. He makes that last choice at the end of the film, FOTR, and steps forward to sacrifice and damnation without hope; Northern courage as Shippey helps us understand Tolkien.

That sacrifice plays itself out in Frodo's encounter with Gollum - the taming of Smeagal. Frodo's Fall comes when he bends Gollum to his will using the Ring and lays himself open both to the temptation of power and to the Evil of the Ring. Not one or the other, both/and.

He has no other choice but to exert his will over Gollum. He had to use Gollum in order to continue his quest. The alternative was to kill him or risk almost certain failure. A choice of evils. So, Frodo falls; this is the nature of the Fall in Tolkien's Middle-earth - everyone, all people and all things and all endeavors are drawn into the web of evil inevitably.

This from a 1963 letter from Tolkien to Eileen Elgar (a connection of the composer):

"Frodo was given 'grace' or the enhancement of our powers as instruments of Providence. Frodo was given 'grace': first to answer the call (at the end of the Council) after long resisting a complete surrender: and later in his resistance to the temptation of the Ring (at times when to claim it and so reveal it would have been fatal and in his endurance of pain and suffering. But grace is not infinite, and for the most part seems in the Divine economy limited to what is sufficient for the accomplishment of the task appointed to one instrument in a pattern of circumstances and other instruments."

"We are finite creatures with absolute limitations upon the powers of our body-soul structure in either action or endurance. Moral failure can only be asserted, I think, when a man's effort or endurance falls short of his limits, and blame decreases as that limit is closer approached.

Nonetheless, I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasts that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their uttermost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world - in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibilitiy of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking point.

Frodo undertook his quest out of love - to save the world he knew from disaster at his own expense, if he could; and also in complete hulility, acknowledging that he was wholly inadequate to the task. ..."

In the film the nature of Frodo's sacrifice is shown, IMO, in the two scenes when at the beginning he nearly cuts Gollum's throat - and then at the end Sam's. Frodo's own personal Hell.

For me, Tolkien's concept of 'grace' "...limited to what is sufficient for the accomplishment of the task appointed to one instrument in a pattern of circumstances and other instruments..." is seen several times in the film: Frodo at the waterfall saving Gollum; Pippen's inspiration as he rides on Treebeard's shoulders; the last charge of the Rohirrim and the heartbroken Ents advancing on Isengard.

Ben Del Maestro's faint, but trancendant, voice sounds exactly like 'grace' to me.

I'm not very familiar with religion, so it'll be great to hear the Faculty's view on his article.
Bob would make a great honorary Faculty member, wouldn't he?
We need a Faculty dude. :p :D

---------
TV alert for US sisters:
*Sat. 8th, 8am PST, Forever Young on TBS.
*Sun. 9th, 3pm PST, Oliver Twist on WB. (this one might depends on where you at.)
*Sun. 9th, 8pm PST, SAG Award on TNT.
*Mon. 10th, 3pm PST, Child in the Night on LIFE.
Please check your local listings.

------
I think there's something else I was gonna say but can't remember now, it's quite late so I'll stop here.
Whew, the longest post ever from me. http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/yikes.gif

Flourish

03-05-2003, 07:40 AM

Thanks, Deluby--there's more in your post than I can take in at one sitting, but this quote from the article you posted jumped out at me--

<<That sacrifice plays itself out in Frodo's encounter with Gollum - the taming of Smeagol. Frodo's Fall comes when he bends Gollum to his will using the Ring and lays himself open both to the temptation of power and to the Evil of the Ring. Not one or the other, both/and.>>

It wasn't so obvious in the film, was it, that Frodo was actually using the power of the Ring against Gollum--yet it is a chilling moment in the book for that reason alone. I wish it had been clearer on screen. To use the Ring was the only choice Frodo had, but it was, indeed, a moral turning point on his inevitable road. Poor Frodo!

Tathar

03-05-2003, 09:57 AM

Deluby, that was a great article -- I agree, he should be a Faculty member! :D

I can really only say that I agree with everything he said -- Frodo has always been my very favorite Tolkien character precisely because he was in that 'sacrificial' position, and accepted this humbly and willingly, even though he knew he likely wouldn't succeed, or survive. Another reason he's one of the most tragic characters, too -- he had no other choice but to use the Ring over Gollum, and he knew it; he sentenced himself again, willingly, for the sake of the Quest and his calling. And in that way, and in his continual pity for Gollum, he saved himself in the end. It reminds me of something Christ said to the disciples once:

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it." -- Matthew 16:24-25

Yet another reason Frodo isn't often seen as "the" hero of the Trilogy -- he wasn't openly "heroic," like Aragorn; he was quiet, dogged, humble and completely accepting his fate to bear the burden (or cross). That's the best kind of heroism, I think.

Goodness, aren't I feeling profound today? :rolleyes: :D In other news, I went to my first Ash Wednesday Mass this morning! Yes, all your talk about the Catholic tradition piqued my interest and I had to go (though I admit I felt very lost!). I now have the ashes on my forehead, and I'll be wearing them for the rest of the day, I think. They're pretty clearly shaped like a cross, and bigger than I thought. Very, very interesting service, though, and I like what it symbolizes. I wouldn't mind going again next year.

tgshaw

03-05-2003, 01:53 PM

Hi to Elf-friend Frodo (glad you got your "o") :) . I don't think I've missed any other new people (well, except for that "Lutheia"--where'd she come from? :p ;) :p )

BTW, I'll agree that Bob Burns should drop in. I don't know what happened to King Lamoni (sp?), who was our male representative for awhile--think we scared him off with the questions about receding hairlines ;) ? It was actually a man who started this thread way back when at Imladris, but he disappeared a long time ago. Too bad--it's nice to get the male viewpoint on things :( .

For Tathar, ainon, and anyone else who's interested--this morning was a "good news, bad news" time with my website.

The good news is that I got the new Elijah Wood section set up (separate from the Tolkien part of the site).

The bad news is that it took a major overhaul of the site to publish it, and the FTP had a hard time. The first two times it disconnected, I could reconnect, but the third time it wouldn't reconnect and I needed to leave for the office, so I stopped--the message on the computer said, "Cancel. Publish later." So I thought, "Great! After spending over an hour at this, I'll have to start over again tonight!"

The good news is that when I went to the site online, most of the material did get published, so when I get home tonight hopefully the FTP will be able to handle what's left without having to start from scratch.

The bad news is that two of the items that didn't publish are the AW screencaps and the second half of the Huck Finn screencaps. They're just red X's at the moment.

The good news is that the putting-on-cloak-and-making-a-180-degree-turn screencaps from FotR did publish, so there's something new to look at while waiting for the rest. There are also a couple of pages of written stuff--as opposed to pictures--in the new section. I'm trying to make the Elijah Wood section very "Faculty compatible," so I hope it turns out that way :) . Especially if anyone thinks of something that needs to be added to the "glossary" :p .

-----------

Deluby--very good example of expression change with those three pics. There's not much I can say about all the other pictures, except thanks! Most of the comments I'd make about the essay would be too book-related for here, but I'll make a few...

My experience interpreting Tolkien is that the answers to questions of meaning are almost always opposites in tension.
Anyone who's read many of my posts in lit areas knows I'm smiling over this one :) ! Let's hear it for paradoxes :cool: !! Yep, Tolkien uses them a lot--those ideas that seem like contradictions, but really aren't when you look at them more deeply. (Both/and rather than either/or, as Bob B. says further on.) To make this movie-related, I think this might be an aspect of Tolkien's writing that doesn't show up well in the movies. Not too surprising, as they can be complicated to deal with and they make a lot of people uncomfortable (that seems to be their main purpose, actually :rolleyes: ). Understandably--just because they're visual--the movies tend to emphasize external things; it's much easier to make the Ring a stronger and more recognizable external force than it is to balance out the two sides of its paradoxical nature as a force that works both externally and internally.

By the end of FOTR, Frodo understands that by going forward he is choosing what he believes to be certain damnation. I don't mean our current Christian concept of damnation, but damnation as has been revealed to him through his encounters with the Wraiths and the Ring.
The scripture quote I always think of when Frodo's at the Cracks of Doom is, "He who knew no sin was made sin for our sake." The strength of that line floors me--whether relating it to Christ or Frodo. It's such a total statement, and IMHO implies a loss of identity or "self," which is certainly what happens to Frodo. In the TTT movie, we see this in Frodo's attack on Sam at Osgiliath [we see it because of EW's unbelievable acting, just to keep this on-topic ;) ] It's been discussed before--how there's something in Frodo's eyes that "isn't Frodo," but yet we know some of what is Frodo remains unconquered by the Ring simply by the fact that Sam's alive at the end of the scene. But the process of Frodo losing his own "self" has started.

(And what I really love is that Bob B. has quoted a lot of material from the same Letter I usually end up quoting the most, too. :) )

peaceweaver

03-05-2003, 02:24 PM

Had to laugh out loud at tg's "good news, bad news" post!! I'll be over as soon as I can.

By the way, have you all seen what Elve has done with her site? She must have been too busy there to let us know, but it is revamped and gorgeous!

Hi Lutheia! Glad to see you! Hi again Elf Friend Frodo! (just wanted to get your name correct!) Hi Tathar! Hi Flourish!

Deluby I just love that photo essay. Now we have two competing hypotheses for how EW does that black magic of his. Hmm, must study the evidence. :D

Who is Bob Burns? Is he related to Ed? Seriously, I think his comments on Frodo are very interesting. But would he really be interested in our examination of every eye movement EW makes? Would he make the ultimate sacrifice, and watch "Black and White"? ;)

The snow we had last night robbed me of a visit with Goldie. :( I consoled myself with watching bits and pieces of "Chain of Fools." Again, I was struck by what a terrific comic actor Wood is. (And I wish Warner Brothers would release the film on video in the United States so others could enjoy the same experience!) I know some of you have read the script for "Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind" that was posted on the net some while ago (and over which Harry Knowles waxed poetic on Valentine's day.) Can anyone tell me whether EW's role in that film is slanted more towards the comedic or the dramatic?

tgshaw

03-05-2003, 02:34 PM

Originally posted by peaceweaver
...But would he really be interested in our examination of every eye movement EW makes? Would he make the ultimate sacrifice, and watch "Black and White"? ;)
;) Hah!! Watching "Black and White" is the ultimate sacrifice :rolleyes: ? You don't know ultimate sacrifice (but I could send you the video :p :p ).

Maeglian

03-05-2003, 02:58 PM

OK, I think I almost need to get hold of the English version of TT&T just to verify that it really *is* that horrible. I don't doubt you, tg, but can anything be much worse than Black&White? The mind boggles!

Tg, I was going to quote you on that bit about "just enough grace" and that Frodo didn't need all characteristics and abilities because Sam was there providing his, - and the part that the movies so clearly fosters the message that noone gets anywhere or achieves anything without the help from others. I loved that, and it is one of the messages of lotR the movies that I find to be very strong and beautiful, - but you have removed it, I think? :(

I really like the Bob B. quotes. Thank you, Deluby.
And thank you for that wonderful collage of images. It made me realize that I may not know very much about acting, but EJW makes me believe, understand and feel *every* step of the way and *every* emotion and action as Frodo. That *has* to be good acting, however he achieves it. :)

Anyway, I took Peaceweaver's advice and went over to have a look at Elve's great site. Chance would have it that I almost immediately hit upon this extremely lovely and thoughtful essay about the nature of Frodo's heroism, I would greatly recommend it. It follows up on what Bob and several others have said on the uniqueness of Frodo's courage, the inspiration it provides, and why many feel discomfort at seeing his portrayal in the film:

http://www.frodoandsam.net/musings/commentaries/commentary008.html

EE, Luthiea, good to see both of you here again, I wondered where you were! Have a nice time meeting in Dublin. :)

peaceweaver

03-05-2003, 03:02 PM

LOL, tg. I know whereof you speak!

I actually tried to watch the animated video that shall not be named! (Even listening to it is difficult) I'm afraid the animation was just sooo ugly that I could barely stand to put it in the DVD player. I collapsed in laughter at Tom's line "Do you think I'm short for my age?" But I gave up on the whole enterprise rather quickly, because the dialogue was so lame.

So, no, please don't require "Tom Thumb and Thumbelina" as the proof of the *true* Faculty member!

At least with Black and White there is the final scene!

Eldalieva

03-05-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
(And what I really love is that Bob B. has quoted a lot of material from the same Letter I usually end up quoting the most, too. :) )

That letter is Letter #246 and it should be renamed "Everything You Ever Wanted to Know about Frodo Baggins (but were afraid to ask)!" Seriously, though, if you seek any insight into what Tolkien's opinion was of Frodo and the Quest and what happened at Mount Doom, that is the one letter (in a collection of great ones) that you must read. Some very good stuff about Sam in there, too.

I like this Bob Burns character, very much so!

Got my ashes today too, and feel quite pious. Actually got a very nice cross-formation going, and no, I have NOT washed them off yet!

Hobmom

03-05-2003, 03:21 PM

I dread ever watching TT&T!!!! But can anything be worse than Black and White? Perhaps the most gross, icky, nasty slimey movie I've ever seen. I mean Elijah hates it too!

Tathar

03-05-2003, 03:25 PM

Hooray, tg, you've finally got those updates up!! :k And they're well worth the wait, too! (Don't worry, I can wait for those screencaps -- well, at least I can wait a little while longer...;))

Originally posted by Eldalieva

Got my ashes today too, and feel quite pious. Actually got a very nice cross-formation going, and no, I have NOT washed them off yet!

Ditto, Elda! :rolleyes: :D

About Chain of Fools -- I've not read much about that one yet. Anyone have any more info about it? I didn't think it was released yet. :confused: Forgive me if I've just been completely oblivious the last few months. :o :D

And I didn't know frodoandsam.net was Elve's site! (Guess I haven't read enough into The Faculty's history...:rolleyes: ) Well, Elve, I have to congratulate you on coming up with one of the best Tolkien sites out there! :D

Maeglian

03-05-2003, 03:32 PM

Hobmom: Then again, there *is* that end credit sequence........ :o :o ;) Don't know how he feels about that bit. :D

(((Elda))) - this is the medieval penitent lookalike day? :) A real pity Sean doesn't get his ashes in AW - would have given someone excellent opportunity to post a cap displaying the ash cross on the appropriate day.
Oh, I agree about letter 246; - but does anyone else feel, well, humble when reading that (and the others about Frodo?) I always feel there is so much to contemplate there that I still cannot fully grasp or manage to put into words.

Edit: Tathar, CoF has been officially released in the Scandinavian countries (not that *that* helps the US audiences any). It's really strange that they don't release it in the US. The film is hysterically funny, it's got very welll known actors like Wood, Hayek, Wilkinson and Goldblum plus heaps of others.... :confused: It's also possible to buy it in the US with Chinese (???) subtitles - does anyone still have the information about that?

Another edit :rolleyes: :

I was meaning to follow up on ainon's post a little while back, with the Billy Boyd quote explaining how he made himself cry in the post-Moria scene.
Is this something that Elijah has never commented on? (Apart from that mirror of Galadriel cast commentary about how he *didn't* manage to cry, that is.) If he's never said anything more about it, we should *really* add it to our list of questions to be asked at that upcoming Faculty moot with EJW attendance: "What do you think of and how do you otherwise prepare for scenes where you have to cry? "

(Do you think he manages completely without help of whatever it is actors can put in their eyes to make them cry? From that mirror of G. story it would certainly seem so).

shilohmm

03-05-2003, 04:30 PM

Originally posted by ainon
Might want to check this out (I haven't looked at it yet. don't dare download it at work): The Hobbit Teaser Trailer - by Steve Latham (http://www.lathamfilm.com/hobbit%20teaser%20trailer%20-%20by%20steve%20latham.mpg).

Grumble grumble. I don't know where that is, or what that is, but I've been to that site before trying to look at something else, and it didn't work for me then, either. I just get an interesting conglomeration of blank rectangles, with some decorated by red x's. Bah.

Originally posted by ainon
Microexpression vs repertoire, eh? ;) Well, EW is a professional actor so I'll throw in the suggestion that he could easily rely on both.

ainon! I expected better of you. :p

I will conceed that there is a remote - remote! - possibility that you're right. But his need to understand the character sure indicates a more "unconscious" approach to acting in my book. Maybe he's been around long enough he has a repertoire to fall back on in dire need. :rolleyes: :D

Originally posted by ainon

EW is perfectly adaptable to chewing techniques/manners, depending on character requirements. :p

Bet money he applies the same skill to interviews, doing his best to fit into what makes the interviewer comfortable. Half of being polite is making the people you're with feel comfortable.

Glorious post, deluby! I gotta absorb the photo essay part for a while. :cool:

Guys, check out tgshaw's new stuff, especially the glossary. I laughed so hard the tears were welling up. :D Although, good heavens, tg, the definition for "Cedar Rapids" - :eek: :rolleyes: :D

And I rather thought I'd be hearing the word "paradoxes" here after reading Mr. Burns' essay. ;)

Reading that word, I mean. :rolleyes:

peaceweaver,
I must confess I haven't made the "ultimate sacrifice" yet. Whenever I consider doing so, Maeglian's and Elevensie's words ring in my ears (actually, I can't remember their exact words, but I do remember they both said "don't do it" in no uncertain terms), and I decide to go another route.

Originally posted by Maeglian

Tg, I was going to quote you on that bit about "just enough grace" and that Frodo didn't need all characteristics and abilities because Sam was there providing his, - and the part that the movies so clearly fosters the message that noone gets anywhere or achieves anything without the help from others. I loved that, and it is one of the messages of lotR the movies that I find to be very strong and beautiful, - but you have removed it, I think?

I remember that tg statement from a thread at CoE or Imly and not an essay, but did you check the essay archives?

http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id115.htm

Originally posted by Eldalieva

Got my ashes today too, and feel quite pious. Actually got a very nice cross-formation going, and no, I have NOT washed them off yet!

I don't expect to make it today. Second son has a bad earache (burst the eardrum last night), and strep throat, so I expect I'll be home tending him. :( The past month has just been miserable around here in terms of family health.

Hobmom,
Elijah hates Black and White? I remember him saying he wasn't happy with his work in it, I think, didn't remember him saying it was a bad move overall.

Maeglian, again,
I'm intimidated by reading any of the LOTR stuff in Tolkien's letters. Actually, just reading many of his general letters - I'm humbled by the depth of his thought.

Tathar,
The address for the Asian copies of COF was yesasia.com, I *think*. I can go look it up for you if you can't google it - it was posted in the Faculty about the time we moved to the Pony, and I still have the records on my harddrive, so I could track it down if I had to.

I also have a copy hubby downloaded off the Internet, if you want to PM me about that.

I wonder if there are so many Reniasance painting-like pictures of EW because he's in movies where his character is supposed to be lit by firelight. I was thinking of some shots in Huck Finn that resonated with LOTR - not to say that EW's face doesn't have that quality, but I think the sepia-tone of those firelit shots do help get you thinking in that direction.

Doggone it! I noticed a new Huck Finn Froshadowing watching it today and forgot it already.

Oh, and tg - my kids and hubby loved some of your "stupid captions" pictures. :) I liked them, too - but I like the screen caps better. ;)

Sheryl

edit:

Oh, my golly Ned, tg's "The Red book of A.A. Milne" is hilarious! I particularly liked chapter 5. I suppose it helps to have grown up on the original Pooh, but I think there's something there for everybody, whether they know Pooh or no.

Sheryl

Tathar

03-05-2003, 04:39 PM

Well, as it's R rated, I've found, I'm not likely to see Chain of Fools. :( Thanks for your offer, though, Sheryl. :k (Although if anyone's seen it, I'd be happy to read any spoilery comments about Elijah's best parts...) :)

That's all from me for now -- but I'll be back later to see if tg's got those screencaps up yet! ;) :D

Edit: I forgot to tell you, tg, how much I loved A. A. Milne's translation of the Red Book! I especially loved Bilbo being a "Hobbit of Very Little Brain," and of course the best part: Eefro! :D You're never too old to love Winnie the Pooh! Or Eeyore, anyway... :rolleyes: Eefro is a stroke of genius -- I've got a new favorite fictional character to love! ;) Favorite very, very fictional character to love, to be more correct!

Another Edit (surprise surprise!): Did all you ladies hear that Elijah has been nominated for "Best Performance by a Younger Actor" in the Saturn Awards? :D Finally, he's getting some recognition! (Why don't the Oscars have that category?? :rolleyes: )

tgshaw

03-05-2003, 08:50 PM

Okay, we've got all of Huck, we've got Sean kissing Little Sean's hand, and everything seems to be up and running. With all the new linking, etc., I'm sure there will be some bugs to iron out, but that's always true! That's the reason I try to do updates only once a month--it keeps me from obsessing constantly on it. Now that I've spent so much time on EJW this past month, I keep thinking about other parts of the site that have been neglected for months (at least!) while I've been concentrating almost entirely on Tolkien and Elwood--not that there's anything wrong with that :) . I'm glad the funny parts have been enjoyed--sometimes I'm not sure how things come across!

Originally posted by Maeglian
...I don't doubt you, tg, but can anything be much worse than Black&White? The mind boggles!
I hated watching Black and White--the words Hobmom used to describe it are exactly right (slimey, etc.). But I feel it gets some points for carrying out what it's trying to do; IMHO, it wants to show us that lives like that (especially the hip-hop star it centers around) aren't glamorous but disgusting--and it does a pretty good job of it!! It's full of all kinds of nasty things, but it doesn't glorify any of it--it gives them to us with all their nastiness. I think that's the main reason the group of kids Elijah is part of are in the movie. They don't have anything to do directly with the main events of the storyline (unless I'm forgetting something), but they do see the "star" as a glamorous, glorified celebrity, unlike what the viewer sees in the rest of the movie--and the contrast is pretty glaring. I don't like B&W--I certainly didn't enjoy watching it, but I don't think it wanted me to. (I have to say I did think Robert Downey, Jr., was hilarious--even if it did almost get him punched out by Mike Tyson.)

Tg, I was going to quote you on that bit about "just enough grace" and that Frodo didn't need all characteristics and abilities because Sam was there providing his, - and the part that the movies so clearly fosters the message that noone gets anywhere or achieves anything without the help from others. I loved that, and it is one of the messages of lotR the movies that I find to be very strong and beautiful, - but you have removed it, I think? :(
Well, yeah, I did :o . Almost everything I'd written in that post was book-related, so I went back in and edited it quite a lot. I know a little bit of book-related stuff wouldn't get called for a foul, but when I get started on it... it rarely stays "a little bit." [And, Sheryl--it was a post in the thread Maeg's asking about there, but she was probably the only person who saw it :) !]

Anyway, I took Peaceweaver's advice and went over to have a look at Elve's great site. Chance would have it that I almost immediately hit upon this extremely lovely and thoughtful essay about the nature of Frodo's heroism, I would greatly recommend it...
I followed the link over to that essay, and completely agree. It's one of those things that make me want to sit down with the author and talk about it all over a cup of coffee.

Tathar--I sometimes think the inhabitants of the Hundred Acre Wood are some of the most realistic characters in literature. I love Eeyore mostly because he's so much like me--or like how I can be if I don't pay attention to what I'm doing and saying. He reminds me how ridiculous it sounds! I think Milne must have known a depressed passive-aggressive, because Eeyore is spot on :) ! (My favorite story is the one about Eeyore's birthday, where he ends up with a burst balloon and an empty "Useful Jar" as his presents--could you tell :p ?)

Also--what exactly are the Saturn Awards? I remember the name from last year, but that's all.

And from Maeg again--
A real pity Sean doesn't get his ashes in AW - would have given someone excellent opportunity to post a cap displaying the ash cross on the appropriate day.
In the two scenes that flash back to three years earlier, he does. I think I found a pretty good example:

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/shoulder/cap5300-850.jpg

Possible AW spoilers

Looking at Sean with the ashes on his forehead, I started wondering if his ashes there and Francis' ashes later are meant to mean the same thing--and if they show a switch in roles. With the crucifixion symbolism at the end--and especially, of course, wearing Sean's clothes--the symbolism of Francis taking on the sins of his brother is pretty blatant. But three years earlier, Francis was deeply involved in crime. He "went straight" immediately after Sean's disappearance, so something must have shaken him pretty badly--maybe seeing his brother taking on his sins? That is, realizing that Sean did what he did because of Francis' sins; if Francis hadn't been involved in that life, it wouldn't have happened--Sean wouldn't even have had to make a decision like that, right or wrong. Just a thought.

End of possible AW spoilers

Elf-Friend Frodo

03-05-2003, 11:05 PM

First of all, Thank you for my "O" I'll make sure I type slower from now on.

Deluby,

Thanks for the Bob Burns article. I just came back from a work trip and am dog tired. I just wanted to empty my mailbox a little, and catch up in my MBs. I saved it to Word so I can print it and go over it later. I'll respond more to it later. It looks really good though.

ainon

03-05-2003, 11:31 PM

deluby! :k Thank you. Great post, great pics, and great points! And I, modem user, forgive you. ;) I managed to get all the images last night, although I couldn't get to reply and thank you.

Using lunch time at work now ... I'm very excited about new stuff at tg's site but I'll wait to take a look at everything when I'm at home and don't have to worry about someone sneaking in behind me while I'm gazing at cloaks. :D

I can share these Decipher cards:

http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05021.jpg
http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05111.jpg
http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05112.jpg
http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05113.jpg
http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05117.jpg

Btw, I too count as a Faculty member who has bravely endured 'The Adventures of Tom Thumb and Thumbelina'. My only consolation was that I didn't buy original. My only regret is that I had to pay that paltry sum in the first place. :rolleyes:

Saturn Awards - given out by Cinescape magazine and the Academy of Science Fiction, Fantasy & Horror Films. Didn't Elijah win this for 'The Good Son'?

Originally posted by Maeglian
(Do you think he manages completely without help of whatever it is actors can put in their eyes to make them cry? From that mirror of G. story it would certainly seem so).

That was what I thought too, to hear him tell the story. He did get help to cry - what was it? - dabbed into his eyes when he was making 'Radio Flyer'. How old was he? 9?

Originally posted by Flourish
It wasn't so obvious in the film, was it, that Frodo was actually using the power of the Ring against Gollum--yet it is a chilling moment in the book for that reason alone. I wish it had been clearer on screen. To use the Ring was the only choice Frodo had, but it was, indeed, a moral turning point on his inevitable road. Poor Frodo!

You've just explained to me why I've always been uneasy with that moment in the book. On the surface, Frodo does look very impressive and commanding and all, but it also felt so wrong. Which obviously, is the point.

Anyway, to go back to the movie, one thing I was happy about was that Frodo never uses the Ring to coerce Gollum into obeying him, esp. at the Forbidden Pool, when he relies on trust alone to bring Gollum in, which makes the whole scene in the movie so much more heartbreaking. :(

And yes, EFF, it's much better knowing you with an 'O'! :D

Time to relinquish my hold on the computer now. Looking forward to more Bob Burns inspired posts. :)

deluby

03-06-2003, 04:22 AM

((((((Sheryl's second son)))))) ((((((Sheryl)))))) :( http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/hug.gif

Thanks ainon! Great pics! Will the first pic be in EE DVD? The official photo guide had a picture of that scene too.

Picked this up at TORC, I don't think I've read this interview before. From TORC, posted by spd:

This moved on the AP wire today as part of a package of articles on Oscar nominees. I don't know how much of it will be new to anyone here, but I hope you enjoy it all.

BEST PICTURE: THE LORD OF THE RINGS: THE TWO TOWERS

THE LITTLEST ACTION HERO

By IAN SPELLING

Rarely have such small shoulders small, at least, after digital de-enhancement borne so heavy a burden.

As much hung on Peter Jacksons The Lord of the Rings: The Fellowship of the Ring (2001) as on any film ever, embodying as it did not only the expectations of millions of J.R.R. Tolkien fans but also the commercial prospects of two already-in-production sequels, not to mention $300 million of New Line Cinemas money. All that rode on the film, and the film rode on the shoulders of Elijah Wood, who plays the diminutive hobbit Frodo Baggins, hero of the Tolkien trilogy.

Im not sure how confident we were about Fellowship, Wood says. I know we were confident that wed made a great film and knew that Pete had done such a great job. I think everyones efforts and passion resulted in a beautiful movie but none of that guaranteed that it would be a sure thing, that it would be as successful as it was. Id say we all assumed it would do well, but no one assumed it would do as well as it did.

In the end, the gamble paid off: The first film grossed nearly $1 billion in international release and earned 13 Academy Award nominations, including ones for Best Picture and Best Director. And it raised almost impossible expectations for the second film in the trilogy, The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers, which opened in December and defied the odds by once again winning an Oscar nomination as Best Picture.

The Two Towers continues the saga with parallel stories of heroism and treachery, as the hobbits Frodo and Sam (Sean Astin), guided by the creepy creature Gollum (Andy Serkis), head to Mordor to destroy the One Ring, while Aragorn (Viggo Mortensen), Legolas (Orlando Bloom) and Gimli (John Rhys-Davies) wage a final stand against the forces of the evil Saruman (Christopher Lee), even as the hobbits Merry (Dominic Monaghan) and Pippin (Billy Boyd) befriend Treebeard (voice of Rhys-Davies), a walking, talking tree.

For Wood, the sequel is built around Frodos relationship to the evil but seductive ring, which enchants him even as he works to destroy it.

It starts to more openly affect him as he becomes more obsessed with it, the 21-year-old actor says, speaking by telephone from Manhattan. That obsession deteriorates his relationship with Sam, and it also helps him form a relationship with Gollum. Frodo is burdened by the ring, and he understands why Gollum is the way he is. Frodo knows that he could become Gollum, and if Gollum could go this far and come back, Frodo can hope that hed be able to come back, too, if he were to become as bad off as Gollum.

Theres also a cross-manipulation going on between Frodo and Gollum, he adds. Gollum is using Frodo to get the ring and Frodo is using Gollum to get to Mordor. So theres a lot going on in this triangle between Frodo, Gollum and Sam, and that triangle is one of three or four other story lines that are spread across the film.

To create the wasted Gollum, Jackson hired Serkis not only to provide the characters voice but also to play the role alongside Wood and Astin. He also filmed, alone, motion-capture shots that the special-effects artists could bring to life via digital animation.

Andy was Gollum to all of us, Wood says. He came to New Zealand as an actor, and he wanted to approach this part very much as any actor would approach any part. It proved to be quite difficult for him he was there as a reference for most people, as a reference to what would eventually be a digital character. That bogged him down. Hed say, Im here, and I want to go about these scenes as I normally would.

He made Gollum come alive, physically and as the voice, Wood adds. Every movement Gollum makes, Andy made. So youre seeing Andy and hearing him, and I think, between Andy and the (special effects) guys, theyve created an amazing, amazing character.

Both personally and professionally, Wood acknowledges, the stunning popularity of The Lord of the Rings has changed his life surprising for an actor who made his film debut in Back to the Future Part II (1989) and has been a star since Avalon (1990).

Im just more recognized and more recognizable than I was before I did the films, he says softly. People seem to be more interested in my personal relationships than they were before, but theres not much to be interested in Im not dating anyone right now.

My life has changed, he says, but at the same time it hasnt changed very much at all. I go about my life pretty much the same way I always did. One bonus is, Im a big music fan, and now if I go to a concert or I meet some musicians who are stars in their field, in a sense Im an equal. I like that theres a mutual-respect thing that happens, which is great.

Look, there are pros and cons to fame, he concludes, and there are probably more cons than pros in the long run, although that really depends on your perspective, what you do with your fame and how you let it affect you. I knew going into this what could happen.

Since wrapping the trilogys initial 18-month-long production, Wood has twice returned to New Zealand for reshoots once for Fellowship and again for Two Towers and has starred in two more films, the recently released drama Ash Wednesday and the upcoming comedy Try Seventeen. Hell next join Keanu Reeves in Thumbsucker, due next year.

Nonetheless, with The Lord of the Rings: The Return of the King still to come next year, all anyone wants to talk to him about is Frodo.

Probably when Ive done the reshoots for Return of the King, and after weve done all the publicity next year, then Ill be done with the trilogy, he says with a laugh. Or Ill be done at least until we get together for the 10th-anniversary re-release.

Part of me wants to let it go, Wood says more seriously, but at the same time I dont ever want to let it go. It was a very profound time in my life, an incredible experience and something I very much want to hold onto forever. Its a tough one, because as an actor I dont want Lord of the Rings to be my life I want it to be a marker in my life.

And thats whats happening, he says. One of the great things about being involved with something thats so popular is that it puts you out on a greater level than you have been before. Im talking to people Ive always wanted to talk to about projects that excite me. Im getting better scripts. Thats a great benefit.

So Ill never complain about Lord of the Rings, thats for damn sure, Wood says. Im not going to complain about something I love.

(Ian Spelling is a New York-based freelance writer.)

Headache is killing me now so I've got to go to bed. http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/headache.gif

Before I go, Tg, :p at the Glossary. I only had the time to read that part, it'll be the first thing for me to read through the rest tomorrow morning. :)

tgshaw

03-06-2003, 07:51 AM

Originally posted by ainon
Btw, I too count as a Faculty member who has bravely endured 'The Adventures of Tom Thumb and Thumbelina'. My only consolation was that I didn't buy original. My only regret is that I had to pay that paltry sum in the first place. :rolleyes:
The fact that I did buy TT&T (pre-ordered, yet!) is one thing that tempts me to buy Paradise and Black and White, just to have a complete collection. I watched Paradise (a couple of times) on TV and rented Black and White, and decided not to buy either of them because I didn't think I'd watch either of them again. But there's that little niggling collector's voice that says, "Wouldn't it be nice just to have them all?" especially since I finally tracked down a copy of Child in the Night. (I've even found a place on the internet where I could order Internal Affairs... :rolleyes: ... I've got something bad, but I'm not sure what it is :confused: .) Of course, a complete collection would mean I'd have to keep getting each of Elwood's movies as they're released--if he keeps going at his present rate, that will be a lot of movies! Maybe I could get on TV: "Here's someone who owns every movie Academy Award winner [ :) !] Elijah Wood has made since he started acting 50 years ago." :p [sarcastic addition: "...except for Chain of Fools, which is now scheduled to be released in the U.S. next April..." :rolleyes: :mad: ]

I was going to make a joke about how I had TT&T only on VHS, and how disappointed everyone would be that I couldn't make screencaps from it :eek: -- but that actually led to a serious thought :eek: . Of course, screencaps from TT&T would be useless as far as watching Elijah, even if it was a good movie--since he just does the voice. And that made me think how lucky we are that he's such a visual actor, so we really can get a lot from screencaps. Not that he doesn't do great "audible" work too--"Hello," and "They're here," for example. But his face tells it all.

That was what I thought too, to hear him tell the story. He did get help to cry - what was it? - dabbed into his eyes when he was making 'Radio Flyer'. How old was he? 9?
Wasn't it menthol or something like that? And I do think he was nine (at least when he did the one interview about it that we've seen).

From the interview deluby posted:
Hell next join Keanu Reeves in Thumbsucker, due next year.
...This has been a roller-coaster ride. Now it's on? Had it just been delayed? And another piece of evidence that we'll have a chance to see Elijah and Keanu in a "head-to-head competition." :p

Thanks for the new Decipher cards, ainon. I always save those and then crop off everything but the picture and its border--the game-playing instructions sound so complicated, it's like a foreign language to me :confused: . [BTW, I'd already changed my avatar for the day before I saw the cards--in fact, the match didn't register until I submitted this post and saw it pop up again, so I had to add this as an edit.]

Tathar

03-06-2003, 09:16 AM

Originally posted by Maeglian
Is this something that Elijah has never commented on? (Apart from that mirror of Galadriel cast commentary about how he *didn't* manage to cry, that is.) If he's never said anything more about it, we should *really* add it to our list of questions to be asked at that upcoming Faculty moot with EJW attendance: "What do you think of and how do you otherwise prepare for scenes where you have to cry?"

I found an interview last night where he talked about that -- it was from 1996, after doing The Ice Storm, I think. Here's the bit about crying:
Q: The War was a very deep movie. How does acting in movies like that effect you emotionally?

A. You have to put a lot of yourself into it, and conjure up emotions. Some actors try to think unhappy thoughts and make themselves sad. I don't really do that, but I try to make my whole body sad. I just completely put myself into the role while the camera is rolling.

Not much detail, perhaps, but that's all I've seen on the subject! :D Of course, it'll still be a great question at 'the upcoming Faculty moot with EJW attendance.' :rolleyes:

Oh, and for more info about the Saturn awards (sorry, I don't know much more about them than you do!), TORn has the whole list of nominations -- including LotR's 10! -- in yesterday's news. :)

Edit: Forgot to say, ainon, that I loooove those Decipher cards -- especially the first one. From what I've heard, there's a good chance that scene will be on the EE DVD -- I read somewhere recently that they were going to put the 'climbing-down-Emyn-Muil-with-Elvish-rope' scene back in, so maybe that pic is from that part. We can always hope! ;)

And tg, great Sean pic (now how come his ashes are so much more precise and less smeared than mine were? :rolleyes: ) -- and an interesting observation to made there, too. Loved those AW pics on your site, too! :D

tgshaw

03-06-2003, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Tathar
And tg, great Sean pic (now how come his ashes are so much more precise and less smeared than mine were? :rolleyes: )...
I bet you weren't really expecting an answer to that, were you ;) ? If the symbolism interpretation I made in that last "spoiler" paragraph is right, then you'd expect Sean's cross to be as clearly recognizable as a cross as Francis' is in the rest of the movie. Sean's is smaller, though, and as you said, more precise, even than Francis'. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out there's some kind of symbolism behind those differences, too, but I sure don't know what it would be :confused: .

And I find this to be an absolutely amazing statement:
...I try to make my whole body sad.
...just as if it's the most natural thing in the world, as he has with other statements like that. Do you think he realizes that most people wouldn't have a clue as to how to make their "whole body sad"?

Tathar

03-06-2003, 01:52 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
I bet you weren't really expecting an answer to that, were you ;) ?

No, I really wasn't... :rolleyes: Another interesting theory, though.

Do you think he realizes that most people wouldn't have a clue as to how to make their "whole body sad"?

Probably not! It's always just incredible to watch him jump in and out of character in the 'Behind-the-Scenes' stuff on the EE DVD -- like you said, as if it were perfectly natural. He really was created to act, wasn't he? Equally incredible to think that with all that talent, he was STILL snubbed by the Oscars this year! :mad: I don't think I have ever seen an actor/actress able to do that so quickly and easily. Amazingly talented guy! :D

Maeglian

03-06-2003, 01:53 PM

Thanks for the interview, Deluby. I'm more confused than ever about "Thumbsucker", though. ImdB doesn't have Elijah listed anymore for that one, yet - is he saying himself he'll still do it?

Tg, GREAT pic from Ash Wednesday! I'd read all the reviews and comments and spoilers, and still managed to not fully understand that the first part of the story took place on an Ash Wednesday, too. (Go me! I get it once it's been spelled out ten times and very s-l-o-w-l-y :rolleyes: ) That thing on his forehead doesn't look like a cross, it looks like a heart with a little bit snipped off. I guess that's not the reference Burns wanted people to make - but really, just look at it!

Tathar, thank you for that interview snip about acting crying / sorrow. :) Do you think he realizes that most people wouldn't have a clue as to how to make their "whole body sad"? He probably didn't, back then. It seems that for him, this kind of thing comes naturally, almost like he'd been born with a 6th sense for acting out believable strong emotions. Once you have a sense and a gift like that it is probably difficult to imagine what life would be like without it, and understanding that most others don't have it. But I'm sure he's fully aware of it by now; - he couldn't possibly be around so many other actors and so many moviemakers for so many shoots without being fully aware that most others just don't have that natural inborn "6th sense of acting".

Ainon - I love that first decipher card, too. That *is* the missing scene in Emyn Muil right after Sam says the rainclouds might dampen his spirit, it has to be. Like Deluby says, there's another pic from the same scene in one of the movie companions where you can see Gollum spying on them from up in the rocks, too. (Well, *that* picture is seen from Gollum's POV). So I would take the text on this particular decipher card with more than a grain of salt. I hope that scene, and the one with them climbing down a mountain side is included in the EE DVD!

Basically, for the extended DVD I'm hoping for more, more, more Frodo, Sam and Faramir. Yes, Frodo, Sam and Faramir. The battles are lengthy enough as they are in the theatrical version (although since Viggo Mortensen was almost killed drifting down those river rapids, they could prove to him that the take wasn't unnecessary by including that, too). Apart from more Frodo and Sam, I'd especially like to see that flashback with Faramir, Boromir and Denethor. Wouldn't that be great? Hey, it's only what; - 8 months ? - till they release the EE DVD, it's high time to start speculating...... :rolleyes: :D

Great updates to your site, tg! I just went over and had a good look around. :)

Tathar

03-06-2003, 02:05 PM

Look what I just found while browsing! :eek: Elijah Wood Biography (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0516278584/qid=1046980521/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-9692039-1941414)

Has anyone seen this before? Could be interesting. Sounds like it's time to spend more money at Amazon! :D

There's another one, too, I've just found -- although I'm not sure about it... Elijah Wood: Hollywood's Hottest Rising Star (http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?userid=515U9G98G7&isbn=0446675814&itm=2) Too bad there isn't a smiley to depict my thoughts about that one! :eek: :rolleyes:

shilohmm

03-06-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by Tathar
Well, as it's R rated, I've found, I'm not likely to see Chain of Fools. (Although if anyone's seen it, I'd be happy to read any spoilery comments about Elijah's best parts...)

****** Chain of Fools SPOILERS *****

EW plays a hit man, although there's some debate over whether he's ever actually done anyone in, because there are three versions of his most famous hit, and in the version he says he's being honest, he didn't actually kill the guy.

In one of those versions, he's doing flying kicks and it's just glorious. IIRC, Pearl prefers the one where he sees the victim commit suicide - he yells, "Nooooo!" and runs across the room to... look over the balcony rail? :p been a while since I've seen it.

I love the scene where he's talking to the unconscious guy he's been paid to kill, just seeing the emotions flow across his face (that's where he tells the truth), and there's a scene in a little bohemian cafe sort of thing where he grabs this other guy's chair that's cool.

My most favorite scene might be when a second hit man is trying to shoot him, chasing him around a hospital - very action hero. :D

Elve had just the EW clips on her site, I downloaded them way back when, but hubby may have killed them when we got the movie itself. Even if he hasn't, we may not be able to find them. :rolleyes: We seem to be equally inept at storing files where we'll think to look at them, and we're not good at naming them logically enough to turn up in a search, either. :o

I honestly can't remember in terms of language, but I don't think any of the EW clips would bother you in terms of violence or sex.

**** End of COF spoilers *****

tgshaw,
Maeg's quote sounded like something you said long ago at Imly, maybe on the "Frodo or Sam?" thread, or more likely the "Did Frodo Fail?" one. Can you believe I didn't think to grab either of those while Imly was up? Sheryl trouts herself.

My eldest and her dad have played the LOTR decipher game, but I'm one who thinks it looks like too much hassle. I was never into D&D, either, and I think they're pretty similar.

ainon,
I love the shot of Frodo after Gollum's been captured, and the desperation when he says, "Don't hurt him!" or whatever it is. That whole sequence, from when Faramir wakes him up (really appreciated your earlier observations on that!) to when it switches over to Faramir interrogating Gollum either strikes me as book cannon or even more angsty, great stuff.

I cracked up over the reviews I read on the second book Tathar linked to - every one of them positive, and every one of them by someone who hasn't read the book! :D :D :D

Sheryl

tgshaw

03-06-2003, 03:15 PM

On the books -- the "Hottest Rising Star" book has been around since 1999. I've seen it hyped a couple of times since the LotR movies have started coming out, but I doubt if it actually has anything about them.

More than anyone ever wanted to know about types of books no one's ever heard of:

I did a little searching from the "Biography" link. It seems to be for kids, at least it's being published by Children's Press (of course, if it gives background on Elijah's life, it might still have something interesting in it--but see below). It's 48 pages long and is coming out in "library binding," as have most of the books the author has written. Most of his other books involve comic book superheroes (all Marvel characters, I noticed, which I see as a point in his favor :) ). He's also written one on how an animated TV series is made (Power Puff Girls, from the look of the cover), and has one coming out on Liv Tyler (the books on Elijah and Liv aren't out yet). My guess would be that he does "work for hire" since that's how books about copyrighted fictional characters--and often celebrities--are usually done (all those shelves of Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr. Who, etc., books are written that way). There's nothing negative in that, although it won't be high literature or a scathing expose; it'll be pretty much what the "employer" wants to have written up.

I'm going to make a bit of a prediction, and we can see if I'm right or not. The division of the publisher the book's coming from has "High Interest" in its title, which is often a code term for books that are written at a low level of difficulty but are written to be interesting to someone who's learning to read at an older than usual age. (My mom has done a lot of work with adults who are learning to read--or learning to read English--and she uses that type of book a lot.) It's length, as well as the fact that it seems to be coming out only in library binding, would fit with that, too. They might end up selling more of the things than they expected :D !

Maeglian

03-06-2003, 04:54 PM

Peeking back into the Lounge again to say; - have a look at that Ash Wednesday pic of tg's further up on this page (the one with the ash "broken heart" on his face), and then take a look at tg's current avatar and the "We're not alone" decipher card of ainon's, and other available caps form that meaningful look of Frodo's.

That *is* another echfro / afterfro, now isn't it? :cool:

tgshaw

03-06-2003, 05:19 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
That *is* another echfro / afterfro, now isn't it? :cool:
See, now I feel I have to defend the microexpression theory by saying they're different :rolleyes: . They are a bit different--IMHO Sean's mouth and the area around his eyes are "tighter," which would certainly make sense. But, yes, very similar--and I don't suppose very many of our froshadowings have been exact (now I'm just looking for the differences more :p ).

Luthiea

03-06-2003, 05:38 PM

:D

I reckon The Faculty could write a book based on our scientific findings and deep thoughts of EW - it would certainly be interesting! ;) (And there would be nothing else like it on the market!) :D

Thanks for those decipher card pics, ainon. I've never seen that first shot before - but I've seen a similar one, giving a Gollum's eye view of Frodo and Sam at the bottom of the cliff. (Oh, just noticed Maeg's put the same thing!)

Deluby - I hope your headache is gone now!

I've read that quote before about him 'making his whole body sad' - it's probably got a lot to do with relaxing his shoulders as if the whole world's on top of them, but subtley - that sort of thing?

Has Blossom been about recently - I can't remember reading any of her posts for a while now! (Hi if you're there, B!)

Here's a Try 17 pic I found (don't think it's been posted before)

http://pic4.picturetrail.com/VOL61/958370/1776943/21189769.jpg

Also I've never seen this one before -

http://always.ejwsites.net/images/japanb01.jpg

Hugs, L x

ainon

03-06-2003, 10:18 PM

Give this blurb a read. I'm not gonna spoil it for you, other than to say that it'll make you re-examine all you thought you knew about The Hobbit. :p
http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/6263

As for this http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/6268 -- our local Sunday paper came up with that last month and scared the **** outta me. Figure it should be my thankless duty to 'fess up about it before someone else drags this one over from TORn. :o Jet Li, for those who don't know, is like the ultra-cool version to Jackie Chan's campy kung-fu. I can't really rate his acting chops because I don't usually watch his movies, but he was okay in 'Hero', which is a foreign movie nominee at this year's Oscars. I don't know the other actor mentioned in that piece.

Quickly changing the subject before anyone can recover from their horror and trout me ... I love the little bit of his face that's just peeking out from beneath that hood:
http://decipher.com/lordoftherings/cardlists/helmsdeep/images/LOTR-EN05021.jpg
Lovely profile. And I love how the cloak is large enough to cover every inch of his body - which makes the 'camouflage at Black Gate' sequence more plausible. And I love how utterly cold and miserable they both look. I can't wait to see this for real, on screen, in full wet angst quality. But I think most of you would have guessed that already. :p

How're you doin', Luthiea? Blossom has been missing for a while - where are you, dear? Thanks, Luth, for the Try 17 pic. Meanwhile, the Always&Forever site isn't allowing any sharing of its pics, not even links. :rolleyes:

{{{deluby}}}} Hope you're feeling better today. Thanks for the article. The newest one from EW, lookslike, since he's talking from Manhattan? Very interesting character things he's saying about Frodo there, but what really caught my attention was this quote:

"So Ill never complain about Lord of the Rings, thats for damn sure," Wood says. "Im not going to complain about something I love."

I've noticed that the LOTR actors are pretty honest and humble about life, and the possible professional pitfalls, after LOTR. Quite a healthy attitude, IMHO.

Okay, what follows is a whole lotta gushing for tgshaw, who is without doubt, the frontperson and official representative of the Faculty to the world at large. :k I spent the most wonderful time last night going through your updates. Those are very pretty screencaps, tg, thank you very much, even if you had been doubtful of the academic merits of studious cloak analysis. :D and they are *very* pretty in slideshow

Your Huck Finn analysis is incredible and spot-on -- and you knew all that before Frodo was even a word in Philippa Boyens' wordprocessor! {{{tg}}} I have another Huck screencap analysis request, if it's possible: that marvelous scene that Stephen Sommers and the editor gush about, which was shot all in one take, with one camera, that has a quite-happy Huck running up to Jim, and then stopping short in shock when he sees the whipmarks on Jim's back, and then his derisive defensive attitude, followed quickly by genuine remorse, and there's something about the way he shakes himself and pulls himself together afterward, and the nonFroshadowy way he looks around before he walks off with a gentle 'aww shucks' wave and shrug. It's a shame there're no close-ups on Huck, but then that would take away the really impressive thing about that scene: that it was all done in one continuous take in just the right time as the sun was about to go down.

(btw, just between you and me, if you should ever succumb to the dreadful bug to screencap the animated movie that shall not be named (though I pray that would never happen!) and need that screencappable copy, let me know <cough>)

posted by tg:
See, now I feel I have to defend the microexpression theory by saying they're different . They are a bit different--IMHO Sean's mouth and the area around his eyes are "tighter," which would certainly make sense. But, yes, very similar--and I don't suppose very many of our froshadowings have been exact (now I'm just looking for the differences more ).

I agree with your assessment, and hey, looking for differences in all the similar Froshadowings could be yet another way to spend the loooooong months till RotK. ;)

SPOILER LINK FOR EW's NEXT MOVIE

For those who want to know:

Script review: Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind (http://www.dailydigest.net/scripteternalsunshine.html)

The site doesn't allow direct-linking, but squint through the tiny thumbnail images on this page (http://www.dailydigest.net/previeweternal.html) to see two pics of Kate Winslet and EW on set.

Rikka

03-07-2003, 04:57 AM

Hi everybody... I'm sad that I wasn't able to visit this place for some time (I had problems with my PC)...

So many interesting discussions! I really liked the one about why so many people (especially men) are not able to accept Frodo and this type of heroism - both in the book and in the movie... In fact, this detraction already does not surprise me. I believe Frodo could not be a "popular" hero - his courage is too non-typical, complicated for understanding, out of common standards...

Recall, the same was in the book - Shire didn't appreciate the heroism of Frodo - for good old hobbits he also was "crazy", and "whimp"... Even in Gondor... do you remember how good woman Ioreth explained Frodo's feat to her relative:"he went with only his esquire into the Black country and fought with Dark Lord all by himself, and set fire to his Tower"... She portraits him as a typical "action hero"! :)

And also EW plays Frodo with great realism and bravery, he doesn't fear to show his pain, suffering, despair and weakness, even humiliation... Sometimes it's hurt to watch it, it's not like in the book, too personal... like a personal diary, not an epos, if you follow me... EW plays at the edge of foul (if I can use sport expression)... To look at someone who is going mad step by step before our eyes... And such things - they are not comfortable for a spectator... As so me, I could remember immediately only one movie that hurt me so strong in this way - "Apocalypses Now" by Coppola. When I watch EW's Frodo in TTT I always recall that Martin Sean's character - and his eyes: in them madness also grow up day by day during his terrible journey down the Vietnam river...

So for those who came to see TTT, looking to entertainment, EW type of acting is almost unbearable, and their instinctive reacting is to deny the character, to cast it off, to name him a whimp and looser... They are simply scared... But PJ and EW took this risk and I'm very proud of them because I feel that Frodo story is about inner fight, courage of the soul and spirit, it has nothing with sword play...

Dear Faculty people,
your EW researches impress me so much that I dare to ask you for a little consultation. :) Especially those of you who are native English-speakers...

Yesterday I discussed with my friend EW's performance in one of the TTT scenes (oh, yeah, I also love to discuss all that micro expressions stuff! :) ) I mean the Forbidden Pool scene - his conversation with Faramir. We tried to explain what does EW acts after Faramir's question: "Shall they shoot?" Why does hi hesitate for so long before stopping Faramir - not for the same reasons as in a book from my point of view, is he? And especially what does he put in that phrase: "This creature is bound to me. And I to him."

When Frodo says this line out, EW's body language, facial expression and intonation are so strange - there are pain, shame... something so personal that I can't explain...he even doesn't dare to look into Capitan's eyes... His words sound like a very difficult confession in something hard, painful and even shameful for him... And very personal, intimate - in some bounds he's shame of, but couldn't and has no right to break...

At this moment I every time start to think about the scene at Dead Marshes with the ring - and Gollum repeating Frodo's thoughts about Precious and Frodo's confrontation with Sam at the river ("You have no idea what it did to him. What it's still doing to him" and "I have to believe he can come back.")

And it sounds as the actor put in these two lines about bounds some number levels of meanings... Frodo skeaks it out as if he makes this confession mostly to himself rather than to Faramir - why he couldn't allow to kill Smeagol... And what does Faramir understand? Some pragmatic meaning of this "bound" verb?

But I'm not English speaker, so I don't hear the nuances you are able to hear... I searched in all dictionaries I have, but this "bound" word has so many different meanings... How do you, English speakers understand EW's acting in this scene? What do you hear in this line about "bounds"? What meaning (s) does he put in this "we are bound to each other" in the movie? I would be very thankful if you try to explain this to me...

Maeglian

03-07-2003, 06:52 AM

Rikka, great questions!
I think I shall have to ponder them some more, and see what others have to say (And also, I'm not English-speaking either, so I do not get all the nuances.....)

Still, on the "He is bound to me..." my thoughts have been that Faramir is to interpret this as: "He is in my service, I am in his debt", while the audience and Frodo will think of it in terms that he's saying: "We share a common and terrible fate, out destinies are woven together".

Frodo's hesitation; - he requires time to think about the best course of action, but that's not all there is to it, of course. He's desperately looking for a way out that will save Gollum and not expose himself as a liar, nor his true mission, - nor the Ring. Also he seems to feel both strong pity and disgust at seeing Gollum by the pool, so for one fleeting moment he may well want them to shoot and be done with this constant reminder of what he himself may turn into. And then, he must be very worried about what Gollum might tell Faramir, if Frodo gives them a reason *not* to shoot him and they take him captive instead. Those fears are well founded, as Gollum proves once he has been captured....... A dead Gollum would not be able to reveal any secrets. But Frodo knows he *must* save Gollum, because only he knows the other and secret way into Mordor. So I've read the hesitation *mainly* as a moment of desperate consideration and weighing the possibilities of how to save the pitiable Gollum, yet not reveal too much to Faramir.

On to something else for a moment: From Luthiea
I reckon The Faculty could write a book based on our scientific findings and deep thoughts of EW - it would certainly be interesting! (And there would be nothing else like it on the market!) I think you are right, Luth. Thinking back on the discussions here over the last year or so, those could well get a book, or several books, published. But would there be a market.......... :confused: (I almost hope not!!)

Edited to say that all the following is intended *entirely* as a parody in order to poke a little fun at ourselves, hence the overly serious and pompous "popular science" chapter titles, hence *not* to be taken seriously!

Nevertheless, I just couldn't *resist* thinking through the possible chapter outlines for such a book, and here is what I came up with quite quickly. Pretty scary!! :D :o And all of the contents has been written already, so it's just a case of collecting and editing! :eek: :D I suspect there's a lot I've forgotten, too... :eek:

The power of the Eyes: A thorough examination and documentation of the EJW phenomenon

1. Introduction by tgshaw

2. A life in acting, promotion and motion pictures

- Growing up on screen; - a life well documented, or the gateway to failure? (Featuring a case study based on the 2 main characters/actors of The Good Son)

- In EJW's own words : -My life and acting career (Relevant excerpts from applicable interviews and TV appearances, with detailed Faculty commentary )

- Angst, trauma and tragedy as a viable and wideranging young actors medium

- Learning and growing through accepting acting challenges: Pros and cons (Commentary and comparative case study: The Ice Storm and Black&White)

- Not again!!! Or: Responding to the same questions and comments for the bazillionth time with a smile on your face. (Featuring major questions such as: How was NZ, Did you get a tattoo, and Do you still have your mum do your laundry?)

- "It's only me..." Or: Meeting and responding to emotional fans

- Huck Finn: An illustrated commentary

- The Faculty: A somewhat less illustrated commentary

- The Bumblebee flies anyway: An illustrated commentary, critique and book-to-film comparison (inclusive of thoughts on medical experiments)

- Major or minor films? From Flipper to Ash Wednesday: Brief reviews and commentaries

- An old soul: Comments on EJW from co-stars in various movies

3. Achting techniques and expression, or; the perfect amalgamation of talent and looks

-How does he DO that? - Microexpressions or predefined expression repertoire (NB: this chapter heavily illustrated)

-Froshadowings and echfros: Tracing the development of expressions and emotions through a career

-The androgynous look reverberating through the ages: Striking a chord with the public subconscious?

- Agility as an acting technique : Falling down fast, stumbling as a strategy

- The power of the eyes: Medical condition or azure portals to a beautiful soul?

- Voice matters; - and proper dialect couching contributes a whole lot too

4. Frodo Baggins

- Kill me now!! the early reactions and an actor's courage

- EJW on Frodo and playing the role: Excerpts and commentary

- Frodo hero for the ages or wimpy accidental main character? (An essay and critique)

- Its not in the book, but I love it! No, hate it! - Audience reactions and detailed interpretations of the Frodo role and each of his scenes in the films (Long and VERY heavily text-ridden chapter, focusing on interpretation and messages, emotions evoked, on book-to-movie comparisons, and on wildly varying views of the Frodo portrayal in the films)

- Before and after: Did LotR change a young actors life?

- Makeup and costumes; - tracing the deterioration of a character and a soul (Includes the wig case study)

- Camera angles and effectful imagery how LotR maximized the potential

- Cry me a river the awesome power of the Tearfilled Eyes

5. The road goes ever on : Closing remarks

:D :D :D

tgshaw

03-07-2003, 08:35 AM

ainon and Maeg--I almost felt as if I shouldn't be laughing, as I'm listening to the news reports at the same time--But I did anyway! Which is maybe a good thing. In fact, yesterday I came across a quote from the Koran that I quite like: "He who makes his companions laugh is worthy of Paradise." I'm not sure how good of an English translation that is. Except for the "he" and "his," I think it could be talking about the Faculty. {{{Faculty}}}

ainon--I can't believe that in all the times I've read The Hobbit I've never noticed the homosexual prostitute! Tolkien is such a subtle writer, he must have slipped that one right past me! :D :D :D (just to add a bit of temptation for those who haven't followed that link...)

Maeg--ROTFLMAO through the whole Table of Contents; I'm glad I read it before I went to the office! My favorite, though, is:
- Agility as an acting technique : Falling down fast, stumbling as a strategy

As someone who deals with publishers on a regular basis, do you know what was in the back of my mind the whole time? Getting all the copyright permissions would be a nightmare! This might have to be an underground book, published secretly ;) .

Luthiea, scrolling back through the page, I realized I hadn't looked at the Try 17 pics you posted--I'll remedy that immediately. I'm really curious to see something from that movie.

{{{Rikka}}}--glad to see you back :) . I think you've done a great job of summarizing the entire "Frodo as a different kind of hero" discussion! And I can't think of anything to add to what Maeg's said about the Frobidden Pool. IMHO, it's some of those "little things"--such as using the multiple levels of meaning in a word--that help to capture the "spirit of the book." (It's also a good Frodo as diplomat moment, for those who've felt the movie has missed that part of book-Frodo; certainly not at the level of book-Frodo, but at least a recognition that it's part of the character.)

And IMHO, Frodo's different kind of heroism and his lack of recognition are also very true to the spirit of the book, and to how Tolkien saw the character. The lack of recognition and understanding was present in the reaction people had to Frodo in the book itself, it's happened with a lot of readers of the book--including many who love the book--so it would feel "wrong" in a way if everyone who saw the movies understood and appreciated him. And our reaction isn't new, either--Sam was saddened by the lack of recognition Frodo got in the Shire, and those who love and appreciate Frodo in the book have always tried to explain him to readers who just don't "get" him, and since we love Frodo, we'd like to see him understood by everyone who sees the movies. But IMVHO, in order to have everyone see Frodo as a hero, PJ would have had to turn him into a "normal", obvious hero, and I think that would have been one of the worst things he could have done. But people grow and change, too, and some of those who don't recognize his heroism now will hopefully see it in the future as they get to know him better. -- And I don't see this as saying we necessarily understand the book better than people who don't "get" Frodo--in other threads I've certainly learned that in a lot of ways I don't "get" Aragorn the way his admirers do, and that's true of other characters, as well. Part of Tolkien's genius IMHO was in creating such a diversity of heroes.

And looking back to Frodo's "early years"--Beloved Letter #246 was partly written as a response to some readers' comments that Frodo should have been hung as a traitor, rather than honored. I hope there wouldn't be too many people thinking that way now :( .

Finally, I'm both honored and humbled by the comments on the website additions. I'll try to "keep up the good work," although I'm going to have to pay some attention to the long-neglected parts of the site, too. And I'm not sure how much it's seen by "the world"--I haven't done much publicizing--although I do know at least a few non-Faculty/non-KD members do drift in. That's another whole area I need to look at... there's always something to do. I can't imagine how people keep a site like Frodoandsam.net running [Definite need for "Not Worthy" icon]!

Eldalieva

03-07-2003, 08:50 AM

Maeglian, I am rolling on the floor with laughter over your table of contents! I WANT THAT BOOK!:D

Tathar

03-07-2003, 09:30 AM

Maeg, ROTFL!! :D :D I have to echo what Elda said: I WANT THAT BOOK!! :p As for market, I'm sure we Faculty members combined with the Haremites would be an adequate market to publish the book... and we can't rule out all the teenaged girls -- like the reviewers of that "Hollywood's Hottest Rising Star" book! -- who will no doubt want to get another Elwood book! Although there is a chance that they just might be a bit overwhelmed and -- I hesitate to say it -- bored by our in-depth discussions and analysis. :eek: Hard to imagine, I know -- but even if that were the case, they'd probably still want the book for all those "pretty pictures" as tg calls them! :rolleyes:

Oh, Maeg, you've made my morning! D'you mind if I keep that "Table of Contents"? I'll put it in a nice font and hang it on my wall. (To the horror and disgust of all family members who do not understand!) :rolleyes: :p

Maeglian

03-07-2003, 10:01 AM

Thanks, everyone - and no, I think some teenage fan girls would not be very interested in this, since it doesn't include anything on that all-important-to-some "who's he dating?" question. (While the continuous respect for EJW's private life and privacy is one of the many reasons why *I* enjoy this place so much.)

Tathar, please do print it out if you'd like, of course. :)

Have a nice weekend, everyone! :k

Goldenberry

03-07-2003, 10:50 AM

Maeglian, that table of contents looks fascinating and impressively thorough. Certain to be placed in the Faculty Archives Wall of Fame! To echo Elda: I want that book! :D

tgshaw, would you pm me your website's address, or publish it again in the thread? My computer at work just received a new hard drive/CPU and all my website bookmarks are gone. :rolleyes: :( Thanks!

I'm loving the recent discussion. As usual, nothing much to contribute except my admiration and devotion to this community!

tgshaw

03-07-2003, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
tgshaw, would you pm me your website's address, or publish it again in the thread? My computer at work just received a new hard drive/CPU and all my website bookmarks are gone. :rolleyes: :( Thanks!
As The Purist :cool: astutely pointed out when CoE stopped allowing outside links in sigs (I certainly never would have thought of it myself :rolleyes: ), all you have to do is click on the "www" at the bottom of any of my posts. ;) :)

Rikka

03-07-2003, 11:17 AM

Maeglian, tgshaw,
thank you for your response and explanations on my question.

tgshaw,
You signature - "Why Elijah Wood deserves to win the Oscar for Best Actor: The phrase "Frodo Lives" is finally true"... Please, could you tell me where to find an article this quotation is from? I would like to read it...

tgshaw

03-07-2003, 11:36 AM

Rikka, it was from an article on the SciFi Magazine website that ainon posted the link to about 5 pages ago. Here it is, copied from that post--so I hope it still works. Very worth reading (and funny, too). :)

And from TORn, check this out: If Geeks Ruled Oscar (http://www.theonering.net/movie/scrapbook/large/6156) :D

peaceweaver

03-07-2003, 11:47 AM

Ah, I see the Faculty has been its usual productive self! Now in addition to serious in depth studies of article length, there is now a proposal for a book!

I love the outline, Maeg! And you are so right, that all those topics have been discussed by the Faculty over the last year, so all that is needed is to go into the archives (at *three* different sites) and edit them together. Yes, the copyright issues might be tough...especially if we were to try and illustrate each point; why the microexpression discussion alone would take hundreds of images! :eek:

It seems we'll have to come up with an alternate form of "publishing." A CD? An interactive program? (Hmmm, just thinking about a section on "microexpressions" which consists of some of deluby's gif's and photo essays that you could zoom in on, and juxtapose in any variation...but then I might never turn off the computer! ;) )

Welcome Rikka: thank you for such a lovely post about Frodo at the Forbidden Pool. :k

Oh, I love those new decipher cards. My hopes rise for the EE of TTT. And deluby, thanks for posting that new interview. Elwood is STILL on for "Thumbsucker?" Yay! There just ain't no way Keanu Reeves can do the title role. I am heartened that EW says he is getting better scripts; IMHO that is the only thing he needs to make a good film. And I love that he thinks the best thing about post-LoTR fame is being able to meet music stars, "as an equal." I think that is very :cool:

Now I must take some time and read the Eternal Sunshine script. Everyone is raving about it...

Edit: Although it is much later, I am still last to post, so I'll just add this. I just visited the IMDB and guess what? They put Elwood's name back on their list of the cast for Thumbsucker, playing Justin.!

tgshaw

03-07-2003, 02:59 PM

Originally posted by peaceweaver
It seems we'll have to come up with an alternate form of "publishing." A CD? An interactive program?
Well, now you've gone and done it--come up with an actually possible way of really doing this. Isn't that against Faculty rules, or something :p ? I've done a small amount of messing around with putting books on CDs, with hyperlinks between the chapters or to additional material (like artwork). While all I can do with it at this point is mess around, I can see how it could work. That's almost :eek: scary! (And I have put screencaps on CDs--otherwise, I'd have no hard drive left ;) .)

Edit: Although it is much later, I am still last to post, so I'll just add this. I just visited the IMDB and guess what? They put Elwood's name back on their list of the cast for Thumbsucker, playing Justin.!
Out of curiosity, do they have a specific role listed for Keanu?

peaceweaver

03-07-2003, 03:13 PM

tg: a quick post to answer your question. The IMDB does NOT have a role posted next to Keanu Reeves' name, for whatever that is worth.

And they say the status of the project is "filming," which would be a good trick, since EW is in New York filming "Eternal Sunshine..."

shilohmm

03-07-2003, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by ainon

I have another Huck screencap analysis request, if it's possible: that marvelous scene that Stephen Sommers and the editor gush about, which was shot all in one take, with one camera, that has a quite-happy Huck running up to Jim, and then stopping short in shock when he sees the whipmarks on Jim's back

Oh, yes, second this request!

And when hubby read the A.A. Milne bit, he mentioned that he particularly liked "Chapter five" - I didn't even prompt him! :D

Rikka,
I thought your analysis of "bound" was excellent, and anything you didn't touch on, Maeg did. :)

Maeglian,
My first thought at Luthiea's suggestion is that the book's basically written already (except for the ROTK section, of course, and I expect the TTT section will expand considerably after the release of the DVD) - just needs some organization. Your framework is brilliant!

Originally posted by peaceweaver

It seems we'll have to come up with an alternate form of "publishing." A CD? An interactive program?

Oh, absolutely! My thoughts as well. And it should include the CoF and Homicide clips, I'm thinking. :D With commentary, of course. ;) And perhaps his performance in "The Witness" or other obscure hard to get hold of stuff. (We're heading for a two-disc set, I can tell...) This would definitely have to be an "underground" publication, since getting the rights to various visuals would be a nightmare. But as someone who has long been involved in fanfic that aspect doesn't worry me much. :p

It actually wouldn't cost that much to do copies for the Faculty and the Harem and a few other interested parties, at least for someone with a CD burner (we've got one). People could just pay the price of the blank CDs if they wanted a copy. But the mind boggles at the time it'd take to go through the entire thread and compile things. :eek: :D

Speaking of time, I only got three hours of sleep last night, and I've been schlepping on the computer most of the day. I think I need to either go nap with my youngest (who is snoozing in my lap right now) or sweep the living room (which is getting a wee tad deep...). Looks at the clock. Gak! Or perhaps I should get dinner going...

Sheryl tosses her two year old over her shoulder and races off.

Sheryl

edit:

Just thought of a fatal flaw in the "just compile it" idea - all the posts lost when we first moved to the Pony. I no longer "exist" before that, and even people whose posts weren't entirely eliminated lost hundreds of posts. :(

Sheryl

Goldenberry

03-07-2003, 04:17 PM

Wasn't Keanu Reeves going to play the role of Justin's hippie dentist in 'Thumbsucker'? At least, back when it was for sure going to be made.:rolleyes: Keanu is much too old to play Justin himself.:eek:

deluby

03-08-2003, 01:02 AM

Maeglian!!!! http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/notworthy.gif@your proposal!! http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/smilies/clap.gif
What a great idea!!! We could make it into an e-book or something like others suggested. THAT would be some project to work on! Should we do it? **rubbing hands together excitingly**
Since The Halem was talking about giving EW gifts, wouldn't that be a special gift to present to EW? erm, btw, I'm not suggesting anyting, it's just the thought I had while reading Maeglian's list.:)

Some pic from Sir Ian's site:

http://209.240.152.182/mckellen/images/0947.jpg
http://209.240.152.182/mckellen/images/0958.jpg
http://209.240.152.182/mckellen/images/0960.jpg

Is it just me or does he look very much like a lovely doll? Must be the make up.
Talking about dolls, I just bought that scary Fro plushie today. *Sigh* I wish my plushie doll looks like that. :p

One more thing, I think I forgot to reply to people who asked where that Fro bedroom pic came from, it's from the latest Official Fan Club Mag(issue 7 with Eowyn on the cover).

Edit later:
A bit OT, I made some Oscar For Your Consideration Ads and just posted them over in the Trilogy Forum, here's the link if anyone is interested:
http://www.khazaddum.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=128114#post128114

Here's the Frodo one I made:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/delubycc/FYC04.jpg

ainon

03-08-2003, 04:26 AM

Maeg! Oh, that was absolutely precious! :D And well, Sheryl's right about our lost posts, but the rest that we do have is more than enough to burn into a double, heck, maybe even triple-CD set. ;)

And tg, this must surely read as the best foreword for such a 'publication' :):

Originally posted by tgshaw
And IMHO, Frodo's different kind of heroism and his lack of recognition are also very true to the spirit of the book, and to how Tolkien saw the character. The lack of recognition and understanding was present in the reaction people had to Frodo in the book itself, it's happened with a lot of readers of the book--including many who love the book--so it would feel "wrong" in a way if everyone who saw the movies understood and appreciated him. And our reaction isn't new, either--Sam was saddened by the lack of recognition Frodo got in the Shire, and those who love and appreciate Frodo in the book have always tried to explain him to readers who just don't "get" him, and since we love Frodo, we'd like to see him understood by everyone who sees the movies. But IMVHO, in order to have everyone see Frodo as a hero, PJ would have had to turn him into a "normal", obvious hero, and I think that would have been one of the worst things he could have done. But people grow and change, too, and some of those who don't recognize his heroism now will hopefully see it in the future as they get to know him better. -- And I don't see this as saying we necessarily understand the book better than people who don't "get" Frodo--in other threads I've certainly learned that in a lot of ways I don't "get" Aragorn the way his admirers do, and that's true of other characters, as well. Part of Tolkien's genius IMHO was in creating such a diversity of heroes.

Originally posted by deluby
Since The Halem was talking about giving EW gifts, wouldn't that be a special gift to present to EW? erm, btw, I'm not suggesting anyting, it's just the thought I had while reading Maeglian's list.

LOL. I actually had the same thought, although mine arose from wondering if it's necessary to consult EW for permission, and what his reaction would be if he actually received something like this in the mail. He'd probably be in the therapist's chair for years. :p

(btw, there was a thread about the present for EW? has the thread moved? uh, I think I just outted myself as a very lazy person, haven't I?)

deluby, those pics are great! He does look like a live doll propped up against that doorway in the first pic, and like a mischievous live doll in the second pic! He looks great in the third, and ah, so he is a mere mortal like the rest of us. Red eye! ;)

I looked at your FYC posters and they're all so beautiful! I especially love the Frodo one (and not just because I'm biased!) and Gandalf on Shadowfax. {{{deluby}}} You're amazing! :k

A couple of things to share with the Faculty today, from Total Film magazine, Issue 73: its review of The Two Towers where it mentions notable performances, beginning with Viggo, and with Andy Serkis mentioned after this EW bit:

Elijah Wood, meanwhile, has a tougher job because Frodo's struggle is internal. He succeeds, effectively portraying someone whose sanity is being whittled away.

A Billy Boyd interview (http://www.canoe.ca/JamLordOfTheRings/mar7_boyd-sun.html). Some mild spoilers for RotK, and I'm linking to it because Billy is Elijah's friend! ;) And for the info that the audio commentary for the TTT DVD is being recorded already. :cool:

Welcome back, Rikka! :)

tgshaw

03-08-2003, 07:57 AM

Originally posted by ainon
...but the rest that we do have is more than enough to burn into a double, heck, maybe even triple-CD set. ;)
I think this might have to be a continuing series--you know, like those Time-Life books on "The Wonders of Africa" or somesuch. Or maybe with an annual update for subscribers. (Not sure if I should put a :p here or not :confused: .) If it's a one-time "event," it'd have to be finished after the RotK SE, but no reason it couldn't be worked on before that. -- And, ainon, I think the foreword should be more general "Elijah," if you know what I mean, but I definitely think the entire Frodo as a hero discussion needs to be there--and, of course, I'm sure some Faculty members will want to add to any past or present discussion topic that gets included.

He'd probably be in the therapist's chair for years. :p
Because he couldn't stop laughing?? That could a blow to his career, ;) especially for anything angst-producing. BTW, everything on the horizon now is a comedy, isn't it? Maybe he's having an angst-overload.

deluby, those pics are great! He does look like a live doll propped up against that doorway in the first pic, and like a mischievous live doll in the second pic!
At first glance, I actually thought he was some kind of a wax figure in the first one (for a display or something) and then someone had added a "real" face in the second. I think I've been looking at too many FinnFro's lately :eek: !

I looked at your FYC posters and they're all so beautiful! I especially love the Frodo one (and not just because I'm biased!) and Gandalf on Shadowfax. {{{deluby}}} You're amazing! :k
deluby, the only thing I'll add to what ainon's said is that--even though Liv isn't high on my list of people I want to win an award-- the Arwen one is absolutely beautiful :) !

And for the info that the audio commentary for the TTT DVD is being recorded already. :cool:
Any speculations on whether that means there's going to be commentary on the "theatrical edition" DVD?

Thanks for the link to Billy Boyd's interview--I think there was enough about Elijah in there to make it "honestly" on-topic ;) . I'm always glad to see recent comments from any of the boys about how close they are. I'm sure that will change somewhat as they go their different directions, but I really hope they always stay good friends. (And it's kind of nice that the LotR movies have put them in a position where they're able to "flit around the world" to see each other.) I think my feelings are partly from my "inner aunt"; after hearing Elijah say that it's the first time he's felt as if he has real friends, I'd hate to see him lose that.

-------------------

After a few fairly slow days at work, when I've been able to pop in throughout the day with short posts, I have to remind myself that's not so easy with my home dial-up connection! I may not be back until close to the end of the weekend :( .

shilohmm

03-08-2003, 09:33 AM

Originally posted by deluby

What a great idea!!! We could make it into an e-book or something like others suggested. THAT would be some project to work on! Should we do it? **rubbing hands together excitingly**

I really would like to, although it would be a pretty big time commitment. The thread would have to be indexed first, IMHO, and then people could "take charge" of specific chapters to work on. I think most chapters could be compilations with editorial connective bits. And it'd be nice to have his TV appearances (fictional and some interviews) and clips from Chain of Fools (if it hasn't come out by that point :rolleyes: ), all on a disc we could just hand over to newbies.

Then again, that'd be denying them the joy of searching the bits out. :p But speaking as someone who doesn't have direct access to broadcast or cable TV, said joy can be a bit muted when it comes to stuff that isn't available on DVD or video. :( I'd be seriously depressed if it weren't for Elve's site. Bless you, Elve!

As people worked on chapters they might end up requesting rewrites/ copies of stuff - I'm not sure erendis' wig analysis survived, for instance. I think that was posted to the Faculty at some point, anyhow. It appeared in the Harem first, IRRC, and I believe Elevensies has a copy of the Harem thread she shared on disc, so that could be resurrected if it didn't survive the move to the Pony. I like tg's suggestion that there be periodic addendums or new versions, and I think an initial deadline sometime after ROTK would make the most sense.

Originally posted by deluby

Since The Harem was talking about giving EW gifts, wouldn't that be a special gift to present to EW? erm, btw, I'm not suggesting anyting, it's just the thought I had while reading Maeglian's list.:)

I had the same thought. Then I had ainon's thought about EW needing therapy after. ;) Some Haremites don't care to be involved in the gift for EW, and I believe some of the people who hesitated to be involved are Faculty members as well, and I think it needs to be a mutual or not at all sort of thing, myself. Not trying to kill discussion, here! It might be that people would want to see it for themselves before okaying it, too.

I think EW looks like a doll in that first one because of the shine on his face combined with his somewhat "neutral" expression. I love that second one! And the one with Ian McK is fine, too, although Sir Ian looks pretty wracked up. EW doesn't look too concerned so it's probably just costume and camera angle there. Sir Ian's expression looks more aggrivated than pained to me.

ainon,
The discussion on a present for EW was merged with Hobmom's hug thread.

Did you leave a copy of the Billy Boyd interview with the Playgroupers?

Originally posted by deluby

I'm sure some Faculty members will want to add to any past or present discussion topic that gets included.

I'm kicking myself, because I did think of a subcategory I felt ought to be covered last night, but didn't write it down and now I can't remember it. And, if most volunteers are as busy as I am, I'd think we'd need to start work on it pretty soon to get it out by ROTK. :p

And a title suggestion: "The Faculty Papers". Although it could also be our dissertation. ;)

Sheryl

edit:

Whoops! I was forgetting that Maeglian provided a title. :o

LadyEowynKenobi

03-08-2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by shilohmm
And the one with Ian McK is fine, too, although Sir Ian looks pretty wracked up. EW doesn't look too concerned so it's probably just costume and camera angle there. Sir Ian's expression looks more aggrivated than pained to me.
are you refrring to the Bag End photo with Wood and McKellen leaning against the wall? uhmmm... sorry to differ Sheryl, but i think McKellen is dozing off, its obviously some kind of down time when the photo was taken while the actors are waiting (probably to get some technical issue sorted out). Wood looks a little bored and tired, and if he looks like that you can imagine how old McKellen feels. i also remember that the Bag End set can get very hot, with all the lights and people in such close quarters, thus the little fan in the background (and looks like Wood took off his coat, you can see it hanging on the wall where McKellen is leaning on). i'm guessing that the scene is where Gandalf is handing Frodo his cloak and backpack, you can see the items in McKellen's hands.

that's all. didn't mean to interupt current discussion.

Tathar

03-08-2003, 11:53 AM

I know this is wildly off-topic and has absolutely nothing to do with our current conversation :rolleyes:, but I thought you ladies might get a kick out of this: Lord of the Peeps (http://www.lordofthepeeps.com). :p

This pic, especially, is great:

Let It Go, You Fool! (http://www.lordofthepeeps.com/lotp/fotp/1alep/alep18.html)

:D :D :D

Back on topic, I love those Frodo pics, deluby! He really does look like a doll in those first two -- too bad the actual Frodoll doesn't look quite that adorable. :D Your posters are beautiful, too -- and I have to agree with tg, that the Arwen one, especially, is great! :)

Hobmom

03-08-2003, 03:15 PM

The Gift for Elwood thread got moved into Hugs. So keep bringing your suggestions over there. It has pretty much been decided that whatever it will be it should be inexpensive yet meaningful.

Prim

03-08-2003, 03:47 PM

Then I had ainon's thought about EW needing therapy after. Some Haremites don't care to be involved in the gift for EW.....

I am totally aghast at the idea of invading EWs privacy this way, since gift giving seems to me to imply some sort of relationship, and can't say strongly enough that while the idea of a compilation of Faculty Musings is a wonderful idea and would provide an endless source of amusement for us, I passionately and desperately (yes I feel this strongly about this) do not want to be associated in any way with it or anything else as a gift.

I have several reasons for this but just about all would totally offend one or other of us so will desist except to say, sweetie that the man is :) , does he really want to know that a bunch of women the age of his mum hang on his every movement and word? I suspect not.:rolleyes:

edit: Prim reurns to scrape poor deluby , and any other squashed person, off the floor and to reassure her(them) that I like you was aware of the Harem discussion and have had for a day or so the feeling the idea just might do a thread crossover. I realise you were not actively supporting the idea just tossing a thought out into cyber space and am hopefully making it clear that it is the idea, not the discussors (????) of it, that is bothering me.

If anyone is annoyed and would like me to spell out my difficulties with the idea I think PMs might be the way to go. Sorry for any offense caused.:(

shilohmm

03-08-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by LadyEowynKenobi
are you refrring to the Bag End photo with Wood and McKellen leaning against the wall?

Nope, the last one, where McKellan's kind of hunched over holding on to a chair.

Originally posted by LadyEowynKenobi

that's all. didn't mean to interupt current discussion.

Sheryl gives Lady E-K a trout for such silliness. Lady E-K wanders off, weighing the trout in her hands and murmering, "Hmm, trout almondine tonight I think."

"Trouting! I gave you a trouting!" Sheryl shouts after her, hopelessly betrayed by her inability to type lately.

I'm really bad at getting... what would that be, infinitives? Tense? Getting the right suffixes on words today, how about. Had to edit everything I've posted for the wrong word...

((((((LadyEowynKenobi))))))) Good to see you! How can it be an interruption when it's on one of the current topics? :confused:

Prim,
As I said, while I don't feel as strongly as you, I did pretty much immediately reject the idea for myself. I would love to set it up for ourselves and fellow fans, but I'm not real comfortable with the idea of sending it to EW. I was saying that it's possible not everyone would feel as I did that "one veto means forget it", but I rather suspect it wouldn't be just one person who is uncomfortable with the idea. I seem to remember that we discussed sending EW a gift some time back, and the idea died a pretty natural death for various reasons, one being that some people thought it intrustive. Couldn't swear to that, though.

(((((Prim))))) (((((((deluby)))))

Forgot to mention that I finally got caught up on the thread, and was reminded yet again how much I do so enjoy your guys. Thanks, all, for the laughs and smiles and general happy feelings you give me.

((((((((((Faculty, both posters and lurkers))))))))))

Sheryl

Narya Celebrian

03-08-2003, 04:43 PM

Well, while I found one or two of the gift ideas mildly interesting without being intrusive (a plushie oscar!), the thought of sending any compilation of this thread's content, or that of any other for that matter, pretty much horrifies me. We're here for our own amusement and edification, and I can't imagine that the rather detailed ( obsessive :D :p ) nature of the discussion would interest him. (Actually, I can imagine his reaction, but since it involves restraining orders, I don't think I'll go into it in detail...:D :D :p )

I do like the idea of the compilation, though I can't imagine who would have the time to put it together, and edit it properly, and keep it updated. I suspect that we'll have to be happy with the ongoing thread discussion, which continues to refine and develop ideas and theories in a most interesting way anyway. ;) :)

Luthiea

03-08-2003, 05:18 PM

Oh, Deluby - I really thought that first picture was of a doll! A blown up pic of Frodoll next to Gandalf! :eek: Then on closer inspection I saw it was EW! Hmm very lovely though :)

Maeg - ROTFLMAO at your chapters for The Book!!! :D

Re - the book/present - I didn't mean to imply for us to send him it, btw it was just a jokey thought I had. Anyways I send out thankful psychic vibes to EW every day so he already knows how much I appreciate him :p [/joke]. I was just thinking about all the discussion that has been going on here would certainly provide basis for a large manuscript. Besides, you never know - maybe he's already read the contents of this thread! :D

I wonder when 'Sunshine' wraps up filming? (If that's the correct expression :rolleyes: :p ) It seems to have been going for a good while now - I wonder if it'll come on general release over here? Kate Winslet and Jim Carrey are big names so fingers crossed!

{{{Sheryl - here's a hug for you!}}} That's what I feel too, there's no place like The Faculty :)

And one for Blossom, if she's about {{{Bloss}}}

And for y'all (always wanted to say that!) {{{Faculty}}}

shilohmm

03-08-2003, 06:12 PM

Had to come back to comment on this and some people have posted since...

Originally posted by Prim
does he really want to know that a bunch of women the age of his mum hang on his every movement and word?

This sentence suddenly popped into my head over dinner, accompanied by this image of Huck Finn at the end of the movie, with the ladies kissing him and pinching his cheeks and fussing with his clothes... :D For those who haven't seen the movie, Huck finds the attention suffocating and flees. ;)

Originally posted by Narya Celebrian

I do like the idea of the compilation, though I can't imagine who would have the time to put it together, and edit it properly, and keep it updated.

Wellll, define "edit properly." :D If anyone's going to work on it, they'd be doing it for fun. And if it's a Faculty production, then half the fun will be the nitpicking, don't you think? Odds are, it's doomed to die in committee as we discuss structure or something, but so long as we're having fun....

I used to write for, edit, collate, and do layout for zines. My definition of fun may be a bit strange. :)

But at bare minimum, I really would like to set up a disc with The Witness, Day-O (should anyone be able to track that down), and the CoF and Homicide clips. The stuff that isn't available for purchase and isn't likely to be in the near future. Elve's site is wonderful, but she can't keep everything up all the time and I don't think she'd want to ever put up The Witness because it's so long - and chopping that to pieces for downloading just seems wrong, somehow.

Either Blossom's lurking, or she left a window up here. So... Hi, Blossom! Have your ears been ringing lately? :D

Sheryl

Hobmom

03-08-2003, 08:57 PM

Sunshine is due to wrap-up filming in April sometime. Seems like the director is taking a decent amount of time to try and make a good movie. This one has GOT to get released everywhere. Top scriptwriter. Top stars. And great buzz about it already getting started by Harry Knowles (who is an Elijah pal and booster.)

tgshaw

03-09-2003, 11:32 AM

Originally posted by shilohmm
This sentence suddenly popped into my head over dinner, accompanied by this image of Huck Finn at the end of the movie, with the ladies kissing him and pinching his cheeks and fussing with his clothes... :D For those who haven't seen the movie, Huck finds the attention suffocating and flees. ;)
Well, that's true at the end of the movie, when the attentions from Widow Douglas involve the spectre of long-term "civilizing"--but earlier in the movie there are a couple of occasions when Huck's quite happy to receive the ladies' attentions (and food :) ).

But besides that small correction, I agree with the thought :) . I've assumed/hoped that the idea of sending any compilation to Elwood was meant as a joke (along the lines of going to California to measure his facial features). That would be intrusive, to put it mildly--IMHO.

As far as sending a more "impersonal" gift, I'm not as much worried about being intrusive as I am about just being a nuisance. Let's face it, it's not as if Elijah would get our package and say, "Oh, look, a gift! Gee, no one's done that before!" There was a piece in the Omaha paper about a pair of sisters (in the area of 9-12 years old) who were so impressed with the FotR movie that they took a Monopoly game and redid the entire board to make the game apply to Middle-earth, to the extent of painting the little houses to look like smials (for anyone who's not familiar with Monopoly, I'd say the houses are maybe about a centimeter high--and there are a lot of them). And we think we're obsessive :eek: !! Anyway, they sent this masterpiece to PJ, got some kind of notice that it had been received, but were disappointed not to hear from PJ personally. Finally, they got an autographed poster from him and were so thrilled that they decided to send a similar game to each of the stars (hoping for the same result, I'm sure). This is the kind of thing that happens every day, and I'd just as soon not give Elijah one more gift to deal with (maybe that's why he's looking for a house for himself :p ).

If I were to send him anything, it would be a brief note--easy to dispose of--and I'd probably wait until all of the LotR hoopla dies down (I thought about sending him one during the "Kill me now!" days, but I was kind of on my own then and couldn't find an address, so I just let it slide :( ). IMVHO, we probably do him more good by talking about his movies (to each other as well as to all the lurkers out there :k ) and spending money on the ones we think are worth spending money on, than we would by sending him a gift.

Speaking of which (his movies, that is) --Hobmom, if Sunshine doesn't get wide release, I'll be ready to believe there's "some force that works against us." Of course, I expected an Ed Burns movie to get more play, too, at least in art houses--but Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet (sp?) are bigger names than Ed Burns.

-------------------------

I don't know if this is getting off topic or coming back on topic, but I really wanted to say some things about Elijah's last scene in Ash Wednesday. Before getting into anything involving spoilers, I'll say that not only do I think it was a great scene, but that IMHO it gives some evidence that Elijah may be growing out of his "director dependence" a bit, because from the sound of the director's commentary, there wasn't a whole lot of director input into how characters were played. Same thing with Elijah's opening flashback, which is the emotional opposite of his final scene--Ed said that flashback, which is basically made up of quick cuts, was completely done by the editor.

Ash Wednesday spoilers

I don't remember ever seeing one of Elijah's characters played so close to the edge of going emotionally out of control (especially on the "happy" end of things). The closest would be Frodo seeing Bilbo at Rivendell, but this is way beyond that. That's what impresses me about the apparent lack of director input--that Elijah could go beyond anything he'd ever done before, and do it without strong direction.

At the beginning of the scene, there's almost humorous effort to stay cool ("How are you, Father?"), but that evaporates as soon as he hits the door of the van. There's a moment's hesitation at the door, as he tries to locate Grace in the darkness, but as soon as he does--screencaps can't catch it because he's moving too fast.

But he doesn't go over the edge. As I've mentioned before, he seems to be able to sense Grace's confusion and pulls back from the emotionally all-out reunion he'd like to have. You could say he should have known going in that she'd be confused, but in fairness to the character he'd probably been thinking about this moment for months--but hadn't known until that day that Grace still thought he was dead.

So he physically holds back, but he's breathless--and IMO not from the short run into the van. And if I think of being in a highly-charged emotional state that can't be immediately acted on, breathless would be part of it. That's why I think it's so perfect that when he sees "Seanie," he doesn't ask, "Is he mine?" Between efforts to catch his breath, all that comes out is, "My...?" (And, maybe a little beside the point, I like that he trusts Grace enough to need only that almost imperceptible nod from her to answer the question--in fact, I don't think he's actually asking a question there, but is just in a state of not being quite able to take in the reality of it.)

He's still not breathing very well when he kisses Seanie's hand. I love that he does that--not only because it's a touching action in itself, but because it seems he's restraining himself from overwhelming the kid, too, as he did with Grace. And I love how he does it--he doesn't just grab the kid's hand, he puts his hands under Seanie's arm so he's supporting it--and maybe getting as close as he can to holding him without actually doing so? IMHO, it's one of those occasions of Elijah combining a complex of emotions--but going beyond doing it just with facial expressions and using his whole body for it.

Of course, he does "lose it" at the end of the scene and can't do anything but embrace both of them--still breathless and inarticulate, the last we see of him.

This is just under a minute (yes, I timed it ;) ) of a 99-minute film, but IMHO it's by far the most memorable scene--and I think a big part of that is the fact that it's the only scene that puts the movie's two best actors together. (And, no, one of those isn't the kid--although he's as cute as the dickens--and for being Ed Burns's nephew, he sure has "Daddy's" eyelashes :cool: ) IMHO, Rosario Dawson's the one who shows every change of emotions in her eyes here.

End of spoilers

It's probably taken five times longer to read this than to watch the scene... It definitely left me wanting more. (Think we might get a drama after Thumbsucker?)

Well, that's the best I have to say about Ash Wednesday. Now I feel like I should start a list of character stupidities and other plot holes :rolleyes: --but I'll pass on that right now.

Maeglian

03-09-2003, 01:41 PM

Deluby, those "FYC" ads of yours are beautiful! New Line *so* need to contact you to get the official ROTK posters made, instead of the guy they're currently using who can't think of anything else to do than gathering a bunch of heads and displaying them like a string of onions. :rolleyes:

And those pics of Wood and McKellen at the Bag End set - priceless!

Thanks for the AW info, tg. I'm reading everything with great interest.

Hi, LEK!! :)

Concerning gifts to EJW, I'm with Prim and others. Possibly with the exception of an ad, I can't think of anything that wouldn't just drown in a stream of stuff sent from fans, or seem plain intrusive. In my view, the best gift to give EJW is to contribute to him being allowed to live his private life in peace without prying eyes, (ie. not buying gossip mags etc.), and contributing to his continued possibilities of getting good and varied roles that he'd like to play; - and *that* is done spending money on his films in the video store and at the movie theatre box office. :)

Thanks to Elve (Hugs!!!) I've finally had the opportunity to watch EJW's appearance on Leno that took place a couple of months ago.
[Rant mode on] Ugh! I am very happy that show doesn't air over here. Those inane questions - I felt sorry for EJW. The stuff about the laundry and living with his mum - Hellooo! Way to be totally non-original, Mr. Leno! :mad: And those poor, scared animals that that yelling lady was dragging around and almost throwing at people; - horrible!! [/Rant mode off] It was great to see how well EJW handles himself in such situations and faced with such IMO intrusive or boring questions, though. :)

For one reason and the other I've been feeling a little down lately...... decided to try remedying that a little bit by taking time to watch my favourite movie of all time. Hadn't watched FotR in quite a while; - it almost was a revelation to watch it again. Scene after scene is a beloved favourite. There's so much beauty, grandeur and poetry. Nothing will equal that, I believe. RotK may turn out to be stunning, grand, overwhelming and emotionally draining, but will it have the sheer beauty, love and lyricism of FotR? I honestly doubt it.

I'll end my post by revisiting one of my absolute favourite scenes in FotR. Looking at picture galleries from the film, there's so increadily many wonderful scenes with and lovely or heartwrenching pictures of Sam and Frodo, I wish Wood and Astin could really *get* to share a prestigeous award for their joint effort!

http://www.ninecompanions.net/gallery_pics/fotrpics/grouphobbits/fotr_frodosam_9.JPG

Hobmom

03-09-2003, 02:37 PM

Still thinking on the gift idea and everyone is right that unless it's something really different it's going to get lost in all the other stuff he gets.

Originally I was really thinking of a real award from Frodo/LOTR fans letting him know how much we appreciate what he's done in the three films. He has always been very concerned about pleasing fans of the book and it would be nice for him to have something solid that tells him he has pleased us very well.
This might truly mean something to him. And if we did this it might be good to notify his manager ahead of time that it comes from members of a LOTR website and why we are giving it to him.

I have found that any mail addressed to Elijah alone is lost and never heard from again. I don't know what they do with it. But if we contact his manager personally he may actually get it if she thinks it's a good idea.

Another Elijah board for older fans contacted his manager about another matter and got a very good response from her.

EDIT- We need an Italian translator!!!! New Vogue article!

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/LijVArtfix.jpg
http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/LijVArt1fix.jpg

The article goes with about SIX gorgeous pics like this. The rest will be down in Hugs!!!! I need to know if anything in the article says when the photos were taken. Because if they are new it means his hair has grown back!!!!!

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Lijvogue2fix.jpg :k

Hobmom

03-09-2003, 05:43 PM

I found this translation but it's not the best. Still he says some interesting things that we haven't heard before and he's buying a Victorian house in California. Very cool and ever so tasteful! This is a young man with a ton of class!

"He's the ONE: Elijah Wood"

"He's the most famous hobbit in the world. I'm waiting for him at the Stir Crazy Café, a place in Melrose Avenue, with some unmatched chairs, two unsteady tables, a bar and three costumers immersed in reading, where he gave me the appointment.

He arrives, wearing jeans and a t-shirt with the golden winged eagle of the Grateful Dead. His eyes are big, blue and luminous, his skin clear, the smile disarming, just like Frodo. Of Frodo, the tormented star of Lord of the Rings, J.R.R. Tolkien's famous trilogy brought on screen by Peter Jackson, Elijah Wood has this look of uncontaminated innocence that persuaded the new zealander director to choose him among dozen candidates.

From then his life is changed: at the premiere of The two towers, the second episode of the trilogy, in New York last december, there was the great events crowd, from Yoko Ono and Sean Lennon to Susan Sarandon with her family. To give an idea of the phenomenon's entity, The Fellowship of the Ring, the first episode of the saga, has raised 860 million dollars in a year and has gained 13 Oscar nominations and four wins. But for Elijah those are only details: he wants to talk of his extraordinary professional and human experience.

I've spent an year and an half in New Zealand: I've arrived there in the summer of '99 and I've returned home in december, 2000. 16 months during which the Fellowship group has become inseparable. Very strong friendships have formed among us, the bonds forged during that long tournage are destined to last forever explains Wood. Like the tattoo that he and his nine (!) companions wanted to seal an unforgettable movie: the number nine written in the Tolkien Elfs' language.

In the last two years Elijah has returned to the Maori country, for reshots and post production. In the meantime he's starred in two small independent movies: Try Seventeen, a comedy with Franka Potente, the 28 years old star of Run Lola Run (with whom he's had a love story), and Ash Wednesday directed by Edward Burns. Elijah speaks of his directors with admiration and affection, as if for him is impossible to separate the professional and the human relations.

Personal relations are very important for him, beginning with the familiar ones. He's very close to his mother Deborah, that has directed him towards acting. One day my mother saw a TV announcement for a modeling school and decided to enter me. She thought it was an interesting way to address my energy, explains while moving his hands with very short, maybe bitten nails. Mine is not the typical story of an actor that wanted to act at every cost from childhood he continues, relaxed I've had a very normal childhood in Iowa. Cedar Rapids, where he was born in january, 1981, is a placid town of almost 200.000 inhabitants where almost nothing interesting happens. When he was 7 Elijah started his adventure and moved to Los Angeles together with his mother. After a dozen commercials, in 1989 he debuts in Paula Abdul's video Forever Your Girl, directed by David Fincher and, the same year, in his first film: Back to the Future II. From then it's a non-stop: he appears in Barry Levinson's Avalon, in Rob Reiner's North, in Ang Lee's The Ice Storm until the glorious The Lord of the Rings. The passage from childhood to adolescence happens without trauma: differently from child stars like Macaulay Culkin or Thora Birch Elijah doesn't break with his family he still lives with his mother in Los Angeles and doesn't end on the New York Post first page for his fool nights or for having destroyed a Porche. I've always worked he says, calmly and I think I'm really blessed: I'm 21 years old but I feel more mature and grown up than my contemporaries

His interests and priorities are way beyond the last role he's obtained. Elijah Wood should like to do something to improve our world: We're living in a phase of ecological and moral degradation. There's too much negativity and young people are bombarded with a myriad informations that generate anxiety and fear. I've not much faith in my generation, that I think is pessimistic and cynical because that's the way it was raised by its parents. And, after a pause, he concludes It's difficult to raise a son today: often parents aren't present and there's a lack of communication that I think is dangerous. Young people search for answers in Internet instead than from their parents. Maybe it's only an American problem. It's all in the film Bowling for Columbine.

He refers to Michael Moore documentary (successfully presented at the latest Cannes Film Festival) in which the director shows an America fascinated by the power of firearms, a country where firearms' selling is not controlled and in which last year there has been 17.000 deaths due to firearms' use (opposed to an average 1.700 in other counties). It's truly a sad reality he concludes, dejected.

He switch to entusiastic mode again when he returns to speak of his work and his future plans. Soon he'll start to shot The Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind together with Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet, a Michael Gondry movie in which Wood's role is that of an young technician specialized in a revolutionary therapy that erases painful memories and readjust couples in crisis. Among other actors he admires unconditionally Johnny Depp: He's succeeded in cut for himself a personal space, choosing always intelligent and different movies, avoiding the mortal traps of celebrity a la Brad Pitt and Julia Roberts. A good actor doesn't need to became famous and be the focus of the attention, because so he can't have a normal life anymore. he reflects speaking, aware that he himself is a victim of the same phenomenon. I want to live my everyday life as I've always done, without hiding on the streets. I want to continue to speak with people I meet, and communicate with the rest of the world.

There's another thing that seems to worry young Wood: the inability to love or, better, the absence of romance in the love life of the young people today. Romance is dead, but personally I still believe in it. There's no more passion in my generation, no more emotions. Even music has not the tension and the poetry it had in the '60 or '70. He loves old LP of Joni Mitchell, Velvet Underground, Van Morrison. Without them there'll be no music today he states.

Elijah need true, solid things, things that bear a significance, things that have an history. Because of this he's decided to buy an old Victorian-style house in Echo Park, the Hollywood artists district. Today there's nothing destined to last: even the houses have not the solid foundations they used to have....To me it's a perfect metaphor of our times he says, smiling. And he walks away without no one at the Stir Crazy Café noticing him."

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There's no indication when exactly the interview took place except just before the start of filming "Sunshine". And no idea when the pics were taken. Is there anything in the print beside the first photo (posted in Hugs) that tells when they were taken?

Carleenya

03-09-2003, 10:09 PM

I just caught up the last 7 pages or so.

Just.....WHOA!

Awesome, awesome women are you all! :)

ainon

03-09-2003, 11:01 PM

{{{Carly}}} and {{{LEK}}}

And big *hug* for Prim. :k Sorry, Prim, didn't mean to scare you. Yes, I was kidding in my last post - the last thing I'd want is to freak EW out! Not yet, that is. We want to still be able to invite him to our Faculty Moot sometime ... <evil cackle> ;)

While I don't have a strong opinion either way about gifts to EW (mainly because I know I couldn't afford to contribute anything anyway, and if and when I have the means, Moggy should be getting first dibs (:k Moggy)), I do agree with what tg's said. There's only so much he could have or want; even the One Ring is stashed in a drawer somewhere. :)

Thanks Sheryl and Hobom - it should have occurred to me to check in Hobmom's thread. I'll pop over there soon as I can, and thanks too, Hobmom for the interview! Victorian house? What does that mean? How many million bucks are we talking about?

Originally posted by tgshaw
everything on the horizon now is a comedy, isn't it? Maybe he's having an angst-overload.

But he's so good at the angst! <pout> On a more serious note though, yeah, you could be right. There really aren't many characters around (in my perfectly unbiased opinion, of course) who could beat Frodo in the angst category, and there's a quote from him somewhere, where he said that just being on Mordor sets depressed him, as opposed to being on the happier Hobbiton sets. So there's another good thing about him not being a method actor. Switching from all-round about to meet his doom depressed to hobbit in Shire happy as required couldn't have been easy.

Any speculations on whether that means there's going to be commentary on the "theatrical edition" DVD?

I think it refers to the Extended Edition. IIRC, audio recording for the EE FotR commentary took place around this time last year too; that's when we got some itty bit of spoilers leaked out about it. I'm wondering if EW went back to LA to record the commentary with the other hobbit boys. If he's still stuck in NY, it'd be sad for him to record his separately at some other place/time.

Ash Wednesday:
Great analysis, tg! Agree with everything, even the stuff that never occurred to me before I read what you wrote. ;) And a very vague not so spoiler-ish comment about the scene - it's also another example of EW's willingness to emote something that feels so real at the expense of how he'll look, because he's amazingly, embarrassingly gushy there, as opposed to being manly pleased.

Hope you're feeling cheered up, Maeg! I was rewatching TTT yesterday and replaying this small moment here:

http://www.classicxf.com/images/TTT/deadmarshes/smeagol35.jpg
http://www.classicxf.com/images/TTT/deadmarshes/smeagol36.jpg
http://www.classicxf.com/images/TTT/deadmarshes/smeagol37.jpg

(from www.classicxf.com)

It's another one of those instances where his face just changes right before our eyes, and I'm thinking we'll probably see this happening quite a lot in RotK, perhaps with greater intensity, as Frodo becomes more and more ... well, unstable. Now, Nicolas Cage doesn't have this kind of range! If the Academy would still want to ignore Elijah next year ... grrr.

Prim

03-10-2003, 04:02 AM

Ainon you are a sweetie. But, really, you should be growling at me not giving a :k. I did ...er...Fizz and Pop A Little Excessively.
I still think the same way; just less vehemently. Thank you to the Faculty for your tolerance.

I'm still pondering over fandom, why I keep coming here when I frankly don't have the time, and boundaries ie how much fannishness is too much? Where are the lines drawn ? How do I know I'm not going to turn into a rampant fan stalker?

A stalker called Primrose. Heh. That would make some intersting headlines.:p

I hope you feel better about whatever is happening that is discouraging you Maeglian. :k

from tg
Speaking of which (his movies, that is) --Hobmom, if Sunshine doesn't get wide release, I'll be ready to believe there's "some force that works against us." Of course, I expected an Ed Burns movie to get more play, too, at least in art houses--but Jim Carrey and Kate Winslet (sp?) are bigger names than Ed Burns.

Hmmm. The thought that there's a bad trend starting here has ocurred to me too. Fingers crossed that this one really does make it to the big screen.

shilohmm

03-10-2003, 08:33 AM

deluby,
I finally got to see all of our "For Your Consideration" posters. (They wouldn't all download for me before.) Oddly enough, the Frodo one remains my favorite. ;) I did like the Theoden one, though. When they're all up the cymbelene (bet I misspelled that) keeps drawing my eye. What is that flower, really, anyone know?

((((((Maeglian))))))
Sorry you've been feeling down.

Originally posted by Maeglian

Hadn't watched FotR in quite a while; - it almost was a revelation to watch it again.

I had that on the other day with a commentary track, and was thinking we'd short-changed it a bit because TTT was so close when it came out. I have nothing in particular to comment on, just a general feeling that I, at least, haven't sat down and studied the Extended DVD and companion discs with sufficient attention. :p

I really like that photo you posted, Hobmom. Someone in the Harem (elda, I think) suggested he looked like he was messing with a contact - my first thought was of fingernail chewing. Totally wrong mood for the picture... so of course I share it. :D

Have we heard before of the "Victorian style house in Echo park"? It's "Victorian-style", ainon, so who knows what that means. It probably means newer than the Victorian era, but with gingerbread and a porch. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Prim

I'm still pondering over fandom, why I keep coming here when I frankly don't have the time, and boundaries ie how much fannishness is too much? Where are the lines drawn ? How do I know I'm not going to turn into a rampant fan stalker?

If you want the truth, and speaking just for myself, I think the "obsessive" part of it is more toward the people here (at KD as a whole) than to EW per se. Of course I love LOTR and EW, and I am glad of their existence to provide an "anchor" for us, but the reason this thread and the Hobbit threads are so prone to "wander" is that we just plain enjoy the company. And for me, it's the company that draws me back.

Personally, I'm not worrying about any articles on "the Stalker called Prim" in the near future. I'm not really concerned about Narya's "restraining orders," either. ;) If I were EW's mom, there are sites that would bother or anger me - this one would just make me roll my eyes and laugh. :)

I've been reading a "Theatrical Anthology" edited by Philip Franks called "The Actor's Life," ran across a quote that made me think of EW. It's written by Fiona Shaw, who played the lead in Electra.

I saw a clip of Electra on television. There's a bit where she was throwing herself down on to the circle and so I stopped the machine to see what happened when the body just fell. I was very entertained by it but I felt it was somebody else completely which reminded me that if you take yourself too seriously, you're lost.

Very few actors really feel the emotions. We perceive things at about six different levels at one time. I can be playing Electra and knowing that I'm down on this little bit there even whilst doing it. You're lifting things and adjusting, whilst absolutely being in it at the same time. That's how self-conscious we are as people.

Every now and then though, actors play a part that really says something about who they are. I went into acting because of comedy so I was very surprised that Electra seemed to be the thing that was much nearer who I was when I played it.

....

I think tragedy is expensive. After the Electra run, I was in a terrible state for many months, utterly worn out. I went walking in Greece to try and recover. I didn't realize it was going to be like that. I was very depressed and upset, like going to the moon - it's very hard to know what has meaning afterwards.

What interested me about the whole experience was that this play, after 2,000 years, got an audience to grieve in some way in a country that has lost almost all ritual of grief.

Literature, I think, is humanity's dialogue with itself and an actor is the interpreter of the text of the writer, who is tapping the soul of who we all are. The best one does is to give it expression - the key being one's own grief that reveals a very dark pool of basic grief that everyone has. The actor allows it out specifically in the moment. In the end, I suspect, that dark pool is a very similar pool to everybody else's pool.

Didn't mean to quote so much, but more just seemed to fit. I wonder if EW has that feeling it "was somebody else entirely" when watching LOTR - I certainly couldn't enjoy the movie as much as he does if I were in it! :p

I suspect that EW does see himself as "the interpreter of the text" - he tries to "serve the script" by understanding the character and portraying him to the best of his abilities. When I was doing more collaborative writing, I found that I could work with people who wanted to "serve the story" (my writing philosophy), and who wanted to "serve the audience" (an approach I don't understand and wouldn't know how to do, myself), but I had trouble with authors who just wanted to glorify themselves, if you will. If someone approached the project as a service, then they sort of give the story the freedom to be what it is. But if they approach the story with a more dictatorial feel - "You will do this" - the story ends up feeling cramped and stilted to me.

I think authors who aren't interested in serving can create well crafted stories, but the stuff I've most loved tends to be written by authors who put themselves in service to the story. I wonder if there isn't a similar range of approaches to acting.

Sheryl

erendis

03-10-2003, 09:42 AM

Urk. That's why I could never be an actor. You have to somehow let go of your own personality while you're working, something I would be very afraid of doing. You're in danger of losing yourself if you do it too long. Those who are more susceptible to this danger tend to hold back, and they show on screen as actors who are not complete immersion actors -- the "In every movie he's always just Harrison Ford" syndrome. It makes me think that Elijah's real talent is not being able to effortlessly become Frodo, but to effortlessly come out of Frodo and become Elijah again, without much -- gee, what's the word -- lingering Frodo side effects? Memory? Baggage? If he knows he's not in danger of losing himself, he's freer to immerse himself in Frodo.

However, a long shoot like that will take a toll on any actor, even one of Elijah's calibre. Analogy: Even a rechargeable battery will accumulate a memory, recharge a little less each time, and eventually die. Fiona Shaw's post-wrap depression sounds very much like what happened to Elijah. He was incapable of doing much besides playing video games for five months. His guilt :rolleyes: :rolleyes: over this is part of why he did Ash Wedneday.

In deluby's pictures, I didn't think Elijah looked like a doll; at first I though he was Photoshopped in! In that third pic with Ian McK, he does look adorable, and the reason why is no secret -- Camera Angel #1 strikes again. :p Ian McK smokes too??

btw -- don't worry about losing the Wig post -- I could probably write it again. :D

tgshaw

03-10-2003, 10:26 AM

Originally posted by shilohmm
If you want the truth, and speaking just for myself, I think the "obsessive" part of it is more toward the people here (at KD as a whole) than to EW per se. Of course I love LOTR and EW, and I am glad of their existence to provide an "anchor" for us, but the reason this thread and the Hobbit threads are so prone to "wander" is that we just plain enjoy the company. And for me, it's the company that draws me back.
That's pretty much the conclusion I came to at the end of the "inaugural" essay for the EW part of my website--that without this group, I'd still think Elijah was a great actor, but I certainly wouldn't have stayed as interested in him as I have--and I wonder if that isn't true of even more "traditional" fans who see each other face-to-face and might be--just a bit :o -- younger? IMHO, it is a tricky "relationship" to define, which is something I talked about at the beginning of the essay. So, not to push my site, but so I don't have to retype it all :rolleyes: , here's a link to the essay: How Did It Come to This? (http://www.members.tripod.com/afewwords_tgs/id152.htm)

As far as The Faculty goes, I'd agree with Sheryl on the following--
Personally, I'm not worrying about any articles on "the Stalker called Prim" in the near future. I'm not really concerned about Narya's "restraining orders," either. ;) If I were EW's mom, there are sites that would bother or anger me - this one would just make me roll my eyes and laugh. :)

I suspect that EW does see himself as "the interpreter of the text" - he tries to "serve the script" by understanding the character and portraying him to the best of his abilities. When I was doing more collaborative writing, I found that I could work with people who wanted to "serve the story" (my writing philosophy), and who wanted to "serve the audience" (an approach I don't understand and wouldn't know how to do, myself), but I had trouble with authors who just wanted to glorify themselves, if you will. If someone approached the project as a service, then they sort of give the story the freedom to be what it is. But if they approach the story with a more dictatorial feel - "You will do this" - the story ends up feeling cramped and stilted to me.

I think authors who aren't interested in serving can create well crafted stories, but the stuff I've most loved tends to be written by authors who put themselves in service to the story. I wonder if there isn't a similar range of approaches to acting.

Sheryl
To quote from within the quote--
If someone approached the project as a service, then they sort of give the story the freedom to be what it is.
And, IMHO, Tolkien fits that description better than any other author I know of. He certainly could have kept LotR the children's story it started out to be.

And I agree with what Sheryl said about Elijah, too. It's what I thought of when Ed Burns, in the AW director's commentary, mentioned that while some of the other actors changed the wording of dialogue so it was closer to "their own words" (after being approved by the control-freak director, of course), when Elijah had the chance to do the same, he didn't want to change the script. Which makes sense--I'd think changing the dialogue, or any other aspect of the character, so the character was more like himself would be something Elijah as an actor wouldn't even think of or want. Another "anti-method" aspect of his acting? He doesn't want to insert himself into the character, but rather wants to "serve" the character he's playing? IMVHO, that's why we see Mikey and Stu and Frodo--rather than Elijah Wood playing Mikey and Stu and Frodo.

Edit: Erendis posted while I was writing, and I think the point of Elijah being able to come back to "himself" is very good--can you imagine what playing Frodo would do to someone who couldn't do that? I don't know quite how to phrase this, but IMHO it could also have something to do with the idea of "serving" the character that Sheryl brought up--it seems to me there's a difference between serving the character and becoming the character, although I wouldn't know how to put it into words :confused: .

------------

ainon--I thought the same thing about the "Reunited" scene--in the frames where he's running into the van, it's so fast that's he's mostly a blur, but the facial expression you can see on him is non-selfconsciously, idiotically-happy, stupid-looking perfect. (Which is why I especially hate to see Elwood accused of not knowing how to do anything but "look pretty." :mad: .)

Thanks for the translations of the Italian article. My limited Spanish let me know it talked about the tatoos :rolleyes: , but I couldn't understand the later part about his attitudes toward his generation, etc. I guess if I would send him "fan mail" right now, what I might say is how I think his choice of playing characters that don't feed into the cynicism, hopelessness, and negativity of so many people his age (who are a large part of the audience for his movies) is probably the biggest service he could do for them (and for some of us who aren't his age, but can still fall into those same traps). (((Maeg))) -- I think that's why FotR especially, and also some of his other movies, are helpful. Bumblebee's done it for me more than once in the past when it just seems useless and depressing to go into the office and edit one more article on some tiny, tiny step that might lead toward a better understanding of cancer.

And I think this is my 500th post at KD! {{Faculty}} {{{All KDer's}}}

peaceweaver

03-10-2003, 10:36 AM

Just chiming in to say "Hello" and to say thank you to Hobmom for posting the Uomo Vogue article (and its translation!)

The translation looks good to me, if not particularly smooth. Hobmom, I looked (as well as I could) at the photo captions to see if there was more info about the shoot, but that text is all about the clothes! The shoot must have been last fall sometime, sometime before early December when the *gasp* head shave occured.

I must say, I am not fond of the pose-y nature of those photos, no matter how nice EW looks in them. I think it is because he isn't really there, but has to be just a mannequin for the clothes. He's not playing a role, he's not playing himself. It just gives me the creeps....

What pleased me most about the interview was his comment about Johnny Depp. Depp's career is about as non-Hollywood as possible, but he makes interesting movies of a wide variety. And wouldn't it be nice to see those two guys together? ;)

(((Maeg))) (((Prim))) Congrats to tg!!

Rikka

03-10-2003, 12:20 PM

Hi everybody!

I'm quite sure that so long and deep work on this role (Frodo) made a strong influence on EW. This is one of the most complicated an unusual characters in world literature (we spoke about it already!), and he was the first actor to play Frodo! So EW had to do a hard job to get under his skin, hadn't he? Moreover PJ made him to go so deeply into psychological depths of the character (sometimes even deeper than it is in the book) and it was going on for so long period of time

Some funny life story on the subject. Two days ago I took my old godmother to TTT (this was my 7th watching in the theatre!) She is a simple woman, not so experienced in cinema; she didn't read the book (she's only in process now at Helm's DeepJ) She loved TTT greatly and her reactions during the movie were so spontaneous and sincere that I got addition pleasure from them Anyway, when we were on our way home, discussing the movie, she suddenly told me a very strange thing: "I think this is only because he's so young kid, that he managed not to go mad after it!" - ????? (I was quite surprised and didn't understand what she is talking about) - "Well, I mean this boy, who plays Frodo! Look, when he tried to kill Sam, his eyes were absolutely mad, I was scared looking into them!"

At first I smiled at my godmother's frankness perception of actor's profession But then I thought that when an actor works so bravely and recklessly, when he puts so much of his soul and strength into very tragic role sometimes this could cost his dearly. By the way, I mentioned Coppola's "The Apocalypse Now" in my previous post Martin Sean who played leading role, got infarction during the filming (and he was only about 25-26 years old at that time!), and they had to stop the production waiting for his recovering And this Electra example - actress's depressions after the role it's not so extreme like Sean's, but it also tells a tale!

Of course, there is no real risk for our dear EW to "drive mad like Frodo", as my kindhearted old relative worried! :) He's too professional, and also a specific of his acting talent gives him this ability to express extreme feelings and to play people in "the edge" emotional conditions... But by acting Frodo he, for sure, got some scars on his soul And it will be difficult for him to go "out" of Frodo's character, to "get rid" of him in his professional life

But Well, even if EW has to have some difficulties at his post-Frodo period, let us better think about pluses he's got from this role and from working with such a director as Jackson. PJ has a reputation of a director who is able to get out the best from actors, hasn't he? Even watching FOTR and TTT I see EW's professional progress during the time From my point of view, Wood's acting in Osgiliath scenes is among his strongest parts in two movies. Professionally, his acting there is quantum leap so mature, rich and virtuoso it is. I never saw his on this level of performance before, even in FOTR. And as far as I know, Osgiliath was filmed already in 2002

In fact I'm so sad I have no chance to watch how PJ made rehearsals with Wood In my youth I worked for some years in Moscow theater circles, and was lucky to watch many well-known Russian theater directors and actors at work. That was so interesting and could tell a lot about acting technique! Oh, watching TTT, I think again and again that I would love to see how did PJ and EW rehearse "Nursing the Ring" scene at Marshes I'm so curious to know through what "regular feeling" did PJ explain EW what Frodo feels and does in this moment through physical desire, sexual lust? God knowsbut his acting there isis terrific, terrifying and almost genius I terribly want to see them rehearsing Osgiliath scenes and barrel scene in Henneth Annun But I have no this chance and never will :( Grrrr...

But I would like to think that Frodo, his personality will have an influence on EW not only as an actor, but also as a person, as a human, too...

P.S. About "method acting"... Al Pacino IS a Method actor (he even studied at Actors Studio in this youth), may be he's the greatest American Method actor of his generation. But he's never "Al Pacino playing this character or that" - he always "dyes" in his character. This is exactly a real essence and purpose of the Method. So there is not problem with "method" itself - any actor, creating his role anyway limits by his own phisics and psyhic features... This is a matter of talent. By the way, I always loved Al Pacino's talent and EW was the first American actor for many years who's type of acting gift reminds me about Pacino.

It's funny, but my favorite American actor of my own age is Johny Depp... :) And I really like that EW speaks about Depp's way of living and working "out of Hollywood" as about a good example... I would like him to develope his professional career in the same way...

Flourish

03-10-2003, 02:31 PM

Rikka, I love your godmother!:D

Your comments about method acting are very interesting--but I wonder whether I could ask the Faculty to go slightly OT for a minute so that someone--anyone!--could please explain what method acting is? I tried to find out by checking a few websites, but I can't make heads or tails of it.

If anyone knows, I'd be grateful. Thanks.:D

Rikka

03-10-2003, 03:36 PM

Flourish,
well, I know something about the Method acting (thanks to my theater education and also my nationality). :)
I try to explain, as simple, as I can, with my poor English.

History begins in Russia at the very beginning of 20 cent. Russian actor and great innovative theater director Konstantin Stanislavsky (who established in Moscow The Art Theatre) looked for some special system that could help his actors to prepare their roles and to act them in realistic, psychological way. So he created some practical methods for actors training and preparing of roles, which help to understand a role, to get "under the skin" of the character, to express his inner life truthfully in adequate external details. In fact it was a technique of actor's transformation into an image, in character.

Stanislavsky worked on his System for many years till his death in late 30th and raised some generations of apprentices and, in fact, established the modern methods of actor's preparing and training (not only in Russia).

After the Russian revolution (1917) some young Russian actors and directors (who learned from Stanislavsky an early "variant" of his System), emigrated to America and in the US they opened their own actor's schools, where they teached young American actors this system. One of these Americans Lee Strasberg, actor and director, learned this system and later, in 1948 established in New York his own acting school "Actor's Studio" (it still exists, as far as I know) there he taught Stanislavsky system as he understood it, and also developed it's technique. He called his variant of Stanislavsky system "The Method".

Well, the Method is a complicated stuff; it includes a lot of miscellaneous components. But, if I remember correctly, one of the Method's important ideas is (if to express it in the simplest way): preparing the role, go from inner feelings to outer expressions. Understand what's going on in your character's soul and mind, put yourself in your imagination in your character's situation, mood and emotional condition, find his feelings in yourself. If you feel correctly, through it you will find the correct outer expression (how your character moves, reacts, speaks and so on)

By the way, in the final variant of Stanislavsky system (which is taught now in modern Russian actor's schools) there is a return sequence: go to the truth of inner feelings and inner life of the character through the truth of outer details of his behavior: first understands how he walks, speaks, dresses, eats, laughs, relates with different people and so on and when you do all this rightly, you will get his truthful emotional experiences of a moment

Goldenberry

03-10-2003, 03:57 PM

Rikka, if one more non-native-English-speaker apologizes for her flawless English, I'll.......think of something to provide appropriate punishment. Like making you read a messageboard full of teenage IM-speak. ;)

And Method acting is definitely on-topic. How can we discuss Elwood's natural acting style and seemingly effortless switch from Frodo to Elijah without bringing in discussion of the exact opposite?

How verrrry interesting that Elijah himself mentions Johnny Depp as an example of an actor whose career path he admires and likes. Is it possible he's been lurking at the Faculty? :eek: Or are we so attuned to the workings of his mind, after endlessly dissecting his acting talent, that Faculty Synchronicity has led some of us to the same conclusion? We wonderssss, yessss we does.:)

Maeglian

03-10-2003, 06:09 PM

You dear and wonderful people! I come here fully expecting to read the posts, but not to have much to say at the moment........... and then I find I have *lots* to say based on all the great posts here since yesterday! :o

(((((((((((Faculty)))))))))) Thanks for thinking of me!

Rikka, I love your Godmother! She is a perceptive and kind lady! :)

Sheryl, Rikka, what extremely interesting information about acting and the toll it may take on the actor! Fiona Shaw's experience does indeed sound similar to what EJW went through. I don't think I've ever considered how draining it must be, tapping into recognizable deep emotions strongly enough to make them reverberate through an entire audience.

Coincidence would have it that just 2 days ago there was a small article touching on the very same topic in one of the major papers here. One of the theatres just premiered "Baal" by Brecht. I am not familiar with the play, but according to the paper, it is an extremely dark and disturbing play about a person who willingly seeks his own destruction in a stream of evil acts, brutality, drugs, drink, and debauchery, - who tries to get as far down into the dirt as possible. So; not exactly an easy role to come to terms with and portray. Apparently there was some conflict while the play was being rehearsed, and then on top of that the play itself also took its heavy toll. The lead actor had to take 1 week off in the middle of rehersals. He explains he got ill from the play, felt mentally drained, completely exhausted and worn out, had to stay in bed and didn't think he'd be able to resume his role. However he managed to return after a break, and the play premiered this weekend to good reviews.

Rikka, I do agree I would *so* have liked to know more about which direction or motivation was given for a lot of EJW's TTT scenes. It's a pity that in documentaries and interviews we get to hear the same stories about more external occurences like the tattos, or how early they had to get up in the morning, but so little on the actual direction. One of the few instances I can remember reading about, was at AICN describing how PJ directed Dave Wenham as Faramir, leaving Minas Tirith after the quarrel with Denethor.

ainon, you're the interview and quote specialist of the Faculty, do you remember any others?

The problem is that none of *us* have had the opportunity to ask the questions. ;) I'm only partly kidding here; - anyway it would have been extremely interesting to hear more about the "internal" part of acting many of the scenes.

Any further information on acting and direction would be most welcome!! :)

And oh yes, I could *so* get into trying to interpret TTT scenes, such as the Ring-petting one. He's being hypnothized by the Ring, is my take on that one (the repetitive motion, the bright-and-shiny beckoning demanding all attention: "Love me! Keep me!" ) but other, more sensual takes on that scene would perhaps make more sense. :o

from ainon
......there's a quote from him somewhere, where he said that just being on Mordor sets depressed him... It *can't* be just me who read this, and cannot help thinking about what sets that would of necessity be? (And then shiver just a tiny little bit?) The famous squash court scene with Frodo rejecting Sam, the Cirith Ungol set, Shelob's lair, various barren lava rock landscape sets, the inside of Mt. Doom revisited....... I CAN'T WAIT! Ahem. :rolleyes:

Tg, congratulations on your 500th post! :)

I'll leave now. But I have to post the following (which Hobmom just posted with the Harem, where I suppose most of us visit frequently anyway, but a good thing just *can't* be seen to often!) This is before those Mordor sets, obviously..........

http://www.angelfire.com/celeb2/elijahw/Frosweet.jpg

Tathar

03-10-2003, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
How verrrry interesting that Elijah himself mentions Johnny Depp as an example of an actor whose career path he admires and likes. Is it possible he's been lurking at the Faculty? :eek: Or are we so attuned to the workings of his mind, after endlessly dissecting his acting talent, that Faculty Synchronicity has led some of us to the same conclusion? We wonderssss, yessss we does.:)

<shudder> Scary thought! :eek: :D

Oooooh, Maeglian! What a great pic -- where did you find that?? Somehow he looks very "Frodo-like" there... can't put it into words. :o <sigh> Pre-quest Frodo, looks like, or maybe in Rivendell. One of these days I'll find a great pic like that and post it...:rolleyes:

Flourish

03-10-2003, 06:48 PM

Rikka--and Goldenberry too--thank you very much!;) I appreciate the helpful information and the OK on the topic.

I can only think of one other thing I heard Elijah Wood had said about the direction and that was regarding Gandalf's fall at the bridge of Khazad-Dum--something about Peter Jackson wanting him to show such grief as the audience had never seen from Frodo before, as would actually "frighten" them.

Well, thank you, Peter. That's nice and specific.:p

I suppose, though, that the way a director gets results from the actors is a big part of his or her stock in trade and perhaps not so readily divulged as the fan-friendly stories.

Lovely pic, Maeglian!

Rikka

03-10-2003, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
I'll.......think to provide appropriate punishment. Like making you read a messageboard full of teenage IM-speak. ;)

Dear Goldenberry,
please, NO!!!! This punishment would be too cruel! I don't understand even a slang of Russian teenagers... :)

Originally posted by Goldenberry

How verrrry interesting that Elijah himself mentions Johnny Depp as an example of an actor whose career path he admires and likes. are we so attuned to the workings of his mind, after endlessly dissecting his acting talent, that Faculty Synchronicity has led some of us to the same conclusion? :)

Oh, don't worry, :) I don't think EW could visit our Faculty... While... who knows? :) All actors I ever met in my life were very anxious to know what people think about their acting! This is quite normal for this profession.

But Johny Depp is so independent and unusual "non-hollywoodish" star at American movie horizon, that his name appears every time in my mind when I think about EW. They have different personalities, but it seems to me, that EW has same inner intelligence and independence as Depp (both human and professional). I also hardly imagine EW in fluff Hollywood blockbusters (in Tom Cruse style, for example), but easily could imagine him working in deep and original movie, based on strong and unusual plot, directed by bright and talented director, influential in international movies world

I hope this will happen to EW after the LOTR project will be finished I suppose that till his Middle Earth journey is over, Wood simply has no right (under his contract) to join any other serious project. But when (in 2004) he's completely free

Originally posted by Maeglian
And oh yes, I could *so* get into trying to interpret TTT scenes, such as the Ring-petting one...
Well, I'm slightly in a shame of myself, :) but I interpret this "Ring-petting scene" exactly in the way I mentioned above :) - every time since I've seen it for the first time... well, I'm not a virgin for a long-long years already, :) so many times I have seen men with such facial expression and body language - in very exact situations, and it was difficult not to recognize it. :) And I remember my shock at the first viewing: Oh, gush, what is he doing??? I was really terrified by this scene... I never thought about seducing pover and temptation of the Ring from this point of view but later I decided there is some sense in it, too

And I also love your pic, Maeglian. Thanks!
While Fro is so childish here... A baby... Sincerely saying, I prefer another elder and more tragic Frodo - from Osgiliath scenes...

tgshaw

03-10-2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by Rikka
But, if I remember correctly, one of the Method's important ideas is (if to express it in the simplest way): preparing the role, go from inner feelings to outer expressions. Understand what's going on in your character's soul and mind, put yourself in your imagination in your character's situation, mood and emotional condition, find his feelings in yourself. If you feel correctly, through it you will find the correct outer expression (how your character moves, reacts, speaks and so on)

I don't know how much sense this will make, as I'm trying to talk and ask questions about something I'm clueless about, but I'll give it a shot...

It seems that last sentence in what I've quoted from Rikka is the result Elijah comes to, but he arrives at it differently, perhaps? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding statements like "put yourself in your character's situation, mood and emotional condition," and "find his feelings in yourself." It seems that EW finds the feelings in the character--not in himself, if that makes any sense. He said that one thing he'd do while shooting LotR was to ask himself--even when just little things happened during the day--how Frodo would respond to them. Not how he would respond to them if he were in Frodo's situation.

Not that I know anything at all about this :o , but when Elijah talks about his acting it seems more "character-centric," rather than based on specific situations and moods. For example, you could probably put Mikey and Barney in the same situation, mood, and emotional condition (completely hypothetical, considering those two :rolleyes: ), and they'd still speak and act completely differently from each other. Not that a method actor couldn't also pull that off, but Elijah seems to start with that. He seems to start by getting to know the character as a person--apart from the specific things that happen in the script--and then, from knowing the character, know how the character would respond to those specific things.

Rikka, can you give any insight into how a method actor would think of that? That is, if an actor were to play two different characters who were in basically the same situation and emotional state, but who were very different from each other as people, how would a method actor work that out? (Just basically! :o )

-----------------------

And, yes, we talked about the Johnny Depp idea some time ago, didn't we? That we could see how Elijah might go in a career direction something like his?

Someone else I thought of recently that seemed a bit odd... but it's the "early" Tom Hanks (well, after "Bosom Buddies" :rolleyes: ). I'm thinking of movies like "Big" (a present-day fantasy), and "Joe vs. the Volcano," which is surreal to the nth degree--and which I just love, probably because of that. He hasn't done that kind of movie for a long time, I don't think, but those two are ones I could see Elwood in. (Unless it's in my subconscious, I don't think this has anything to do with the fact that Tom Hanks played the "grown up" version of Elijah's character in "Radio Flyer"--except that that movie had some surreal elements to it, too, that I loved.)

And, since Tom Cruise was mentioned again, I've been thinking lately that, in a way, it's kind of a shame he's gone the direction he has. I think he did some good acting in dramas like "Born on the 4th of July" and "Rain Man"--but he seems to have drifted away from that into roles that don't demand much acting. I don't see Elijah ever doing that--that would be more than a shame.

One more weird little thought and then I obviously have to get some sleep :p (a little scattered tonight, I'm afraid) --Although I wouldn't want to see him take the necessary time away from his acting, I bet Elijah could be a good novelist. The discussion about how he approaches characters sounds so much like the way an author needs to do it: getting to know them, so you know how they would think, speak, and act in a certain situation--as entities in themselves rather than projecting yourself into them.

Tathar

03-10-2003, 09:42 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
Although I wouldn't want to see him take the necessary time away from his acting, I bet Elijah could be a good novelist. The discussion about how he approaches characters sounds so much like the way an author needs to do it: getting to know them, so you know how they would think, speak, and act in a certain situation--as entities in themselves rather than projecting yourself into them.

What an interesting thought, tg! :D I know that in some interviews from when he was young (middle to high-school, I think), he said that he loves creative writing, and things like that. I wonder if he's ever considered writing? Probably not lately, as he seems to be pretty focussed in acting right now, but I'm sure it's crossed his mind once or twice. He could probably make a better author than some I've come across -- having such a good approach to developing a character is essential, I think, though many authors don't seem to have that. As an amateur writer myself (amateur being the operative word there!), characters are the things I spend most of my time thinking about and developing, and I don't like beginning a story without really knowing them -- which probably explains why I always abandon my ideas so fast... :rolleyes:

shilohmm

03-10-2003, 09:51 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
--Although I wouldn't want to see him take the necessary time away from his acting, I bet Elijah could be a good novelist.

I'm heading to bed myself, but that reminded me of something I've been meaning to say for a while - it seems to me most good actors are also good story tellers. It's a theory I've had a long time, but the FOTR Extended DVD offers a lot of evidence in support of it I think. For instance, look at the stuff on the Extended DVD, where the actors are (presumably) asked what they think of so-and-so. They may initially say, "Oh, he's a great guy" - but they then plunge into stories about him. I suspect actors spend a fair amount of time entertaining each other with stories - I know stage actors often do, and something Dom said about setting John R-D off with a question or two implied that he was looking for stories about people.

And the strength of those stories are alway how well they reveal character. A good actor has a good grasp of people's personalities that way. It doesn't always translate to a good writer, for various reasons (there's a syndrome where the kid is an excellent story-teller, but can't produce anything readable if asked to put pen to paper, and I sometimes think some actors fit that syndrome). I remember reading some stuff about Paul Newman that indicated to me he had a good sense of story - he knew what worked in terms of the story as a whole - but I remember that because I had run across so many stories about actors who really *didn't* understand how a story functioned, who couldn't tell that the reason a scene didn't work was that it flat didn't belong or whatever.

OTOH, I suspect that most people without a syndrome or other problem who can create lively characters can probably learn the mechanics of writing if they feel like it. But it is a different craft.

I'm not sure I see EW becoming a novelist, because it seems to me he approaches his characters as established entities. Certainly he brings his own interpretation to the character, but at the same time he's working with what's given. But does his subconscious give him characters to work with?

I suspect it's rather like musicians who are geniuses at interpreting something someone else has written - but who have no drive to write music themselves. I've seen interviews with rock musicians who complain about the pressure to write, about how no one considers them "real" musicians because they don't write anything original. Classical musicians don't get that pressure, and fewer classical musicians also compose.

And I now have no idea what I'm talking about so I'm heading to bed... But I did want to mention the thing about how so many excellent actors are also excellent story-tellers. I know a lot of people "fell" for Dominic Monahan after hearing him tell his various tales on the Extended DVD special features discs. Yeah, he's a character - but he's also an excellent story teller, perhaps the best there, although he's got a lot of strong challengers.

Sheryl