Khazad-Dum - The Faculty Lounge: An Elijah Wood Discussion

kuduk

12-16-2003, 07:02 AM

Yeah 5000!!

It's so great to see you back, Deluby (and with such a nice FYC ad too)!

Lovely celebration!

Have a great time at the Trilogy today for those blessed enough!
May I wish you great sound and picture, strong bladders and no cell phones in Middle-earth.

Could we continue to label at least major spoilers for at least a few more days for those still in waiting mode?

I have yet to see all of SNL so my only comment is I thought the Frodo/Gollum sitcom was hilarious!

tg-did it go okay with being on one day then off to vacation?
Also, I must thank you for this lovely post of 12-12 in the ROTK spoiler thread (actually no spoilers in it at all). It should be appropriate enough for this thread (if it's not, may the Mods flog me and delete it):

Originally posted by tgshaw
Lately I've been thinking some about what I'll remember from these movies 10 years from now--what will come into my head from them when I'm reading the book. I've realized it won't be the plot wobbles or WTF scene additions, or the false character arc trajectories, or even the parts of Tolkien's worldview that ended up skewed. It'll be the sights, sounds, feelings, even the scents of the Shire. The awesome sight of Dwarrodelf. How Rivendell and Lorien are very different from each other--but you can still tell they have a common source. Eomer's noseguard and horsetail helmet. The globe of Gandalf's white light holding off the darker fire of the Balrog... well, you get the idea.

And I know I'll feel the horror of things more. Frodo's line about wanting to get out of the line of sight of the cloud surrounding Barad-dur because "There's an Eye in it," has taken on new meaning--and made me wonder what other torment Frodo was hiding from Sam that he's still managing to hide from me. The plain immensity of the Black Gate--seeing two "Gordons" straining every muscle just to open it a small crack. And those horrible downbeats of the wings of the Nazgul steeds. I not only hear them but feel them pulse in the air. That one may come into my nightmares--but if it does, it's worth it, because it lets me feel a bit more what Frodo and others felt. What these movies do to/for/through the senses... I have no words for. (And I haven't even seen Shelob or set foot inside Mordor yet!)

IMVHO, film's greatest ability is to give us images that "hit us" through our senses and stay there. For those of us who've read the book, IMVHO that's the best thing these movies have done. (For those who haven't read the book, I still hold my longstanding opinion that the best thing they've done is whet so many people's appetite for the book!)

honeyelf

12-16-2003, 09:27 AM

Wow! 5000 posts for the faculty!!!

I'm sitting here typing this with hairy feet and large pointy ears. My daughter has smaller, more elegant ears since she is an elf. (They only had one small pair of ears at the costume shop!) We're heading out for Trilogy Tuesday in just a few more minutes!

Have a lovely day!

Honey!

shilohmm

12-16-2003, 10:09 AM

Originally posted by kuduk
May I wish you great sound and picture, strong bladders and no cell phones in Middle-earth.

Now there's a useful blessing. :D

originally posted by kuduk
Could we continue to label at least major spoilers for at least a few more days for those still in waiting mode?

The Aussies aren't getting ROTK until Boxing Day (Dec. 26). I think last year we were supposed to continue marking spoilers until Jan. 1 - does that sound reasonable?

Lovely bit by tg from the ROTK forum! I think that, even if ROTK is a bust (heaven forbid!), PJ has given me so many cool visuals and audials and enabled me to see more in some of the characters that didn't grab me in the book that the movies will always be a gift.

originally posted by honeyelf
We're heading out for Trilogy Tuesday in just a few more minutes!

I see that Trilogy Tuesday is going to be a looong day of, "My turn now; I'm off!" What fun!

Sheryl

zkgrumpy

12-16-2003, 10:59 AM

From that interview:

I think my feet were at their healthiest in New Zealand. Theyve gone considerably downhill since the films. I mean, they were pampered, man. I had to put these feet on every day, so at the end of every day theyd be bathed and powdered and massaged.

:::: looking around waiting for the Faculty Lounge to dissolve into helpless puddles at the thought of a really tough job doing that :::: ;)

Originally posted by Mariole
[B]

More laughing at the "men don't have a clue" club. Here's another good one:

:::: snipping ::::

The article also has a bit where AZ Shoshani points out that women make up 75 percent of the Chicago fan club's membership. Shoshani speculates that "Part of the reason Tolkien fans have more female involvement, in spite of the fact that there aren't many female roles, is that it's a literary work." The author then talks about...

Still terribly amused that so many men think that women are a different species altogether (Hey, they like adventure and friendship? How odd!). At least this author has recognized that Frodo is sexy!

I didn't know what else to snip there; all profound (I sound like Gollum).

It is hysterically funny that the media is so completely clueless about this. I've spent most of the last decade in Highlander fandom. Guess what? Despite the touching belief by the producers and stations that showed it, that they were going to attract 18-24 year old males, fandom was overwhelmingly female. And OY did we spend money! Conventions, swords, tapes, coasters, cards, posters, books, jackets, t-shirts - you name it.

I was on the "Big List" - dang - I still should be on it - forgot to resub when I changed ISP's - since fall of 1995 and at it's peak, the List was maxing out its 150 posts per day, with a membership of over 1200 people. Someone did stats once - I forget the percentage that were women (very high), but the median age group was 35, the most frequently occuring occupation was librarian, and about 70% of the list's membership had masters degrees or above. We had doctors, lawyers, preachers, computer people, teachers, housewives, military, students, senseis, SCA members (society for creative anachronism), Renfaire participants, and third-generation participants in fandom whose grandparents were Star Trek fans. I knew a 14-year-old girl who could hold her own quite well in a discussion with the most cynical lawyer on the list, and a 67-year-old woman whose sig line was "I'm *NOT* too old for this!"

We also had people from all corners of the US, England, Scotland (I came on a political discussion once at a con between a Catholic from Edinbourough (sp?) and a Protestant neo-Pagan from Glasgow, and oy did the sparks fly!), Ireland and N. Ireland, France, Canada, Germany, Romania, Russia, Japan, NZ, South Africa, and probably other countries that I've forgotten.

I can't tell you how my life was enriched by contact with those people. I started writing creatively for the first time since about 1970, laughed, cried, argued, fought, ranted. The depth and intelligence of the discussion - real discussion with people seriously disagreeing and presenting arguments - was beyond my experience. I could not believe, for example, that I was discussing Aparthied (sp?) with someone who lived under it, I learned a lot about history of various countries, and there was the never-to-be-forgotten day when the African-American woman from inner-city Detroit who watched from her window in '68 as tanks rolled past her house started a fund to bring the white woman from South Africa to a convention.

I'll leave the real life impact from a virtual community till later - the marriages, friendships, support of such a community, and even intervention when someone became extremely desperate and suicidal.

Whew! Where did that come from? :o Oh, yeah. I don't think it's because LotR is a literary work. Many women seem to like sword/sorcery/fantasy works, written or filmed. I started out in the early 70's, reading Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave", then LotR, then there was Robin of Sherwood in the 80's, and in the 90's came the Highlander TV series, which we can at least partly thank that there are so many good stage swordsman around (Bob Anderson was the first Swordmaster for HL, followed by an amazing man named F. Braun McAsh, and I can still identify Anderson's sword coreography when I see it. ;)

And when will they get the idea that women don't need movies to give them role models, and that we often don't go to the movies to watch beautiful women? :rolleyes:

:::: looking around at Faculty staring oddly; steps down off soapbox and kicks it under the table; strolls away with hands in pockets whistling nonchalantly :::: ;)

~grumpy, whose speller is on the blink today. (Dang. I still haven't hung up my 4' Templar sword...)

EDIT: P.S. Would someone across the Puddle please explain to this clueless transplanted Yankee of Pennsylvania Dutch descent what Boxing Day is?

Flourish

12-16-2003, 11:46 AM

Boxing Day is December 26, a traditional holiday in the UK.

Goldenberry

12-16-2003, 12:05 PM

This may be my only chance to post before tonight's midnight showing of ROTK, so

Happy 5000 posts, Faculty!

Thanks for the film-viewing good wishes, kuduk. Perfect.:D

tgshaw, what a wonderful, wonderful celebratory party post!:cool: :p :D

Mariole

12-16-2003, 12:25 PM

*Mariole staggers in, sees the party, and grabs a drink in each hand. Nerves? What nerves?* :D

Oh, Tg, no fair! I laughed until I hurt. What an intro to the party!

OME!! Boy George has Elijah's lips!! (pretty darned close, anyway) :eek: After seeing that, I should be able to withstand any amount of emotional blows dealt by ROTK. (not)

Sheryl, I'm not sure about the GP on the cartoon. Perhaps the cartoon came from the Grey Panthers site, who like to do LOTR parodies. I don't remember from whence it (was stolen). :o

Umm, eggnog cheesecake! *Scarfs it. Nerves? What nerves?*

Deluby! So great to see you. Thank you for bringing the :cool: news! Sure you won't stay for some cheesecake? ;) (Makes puppy eyes for Angeleno magazine; I'll PM you.) :k

Kuduk, thank you for your blessing! :k (I must admit, I'm feeling some bladder anxiety already. How can I miss one moment of the first viewing? It's a problem...) :o

I'll second Sheryl's suggestion to mark all spoilers until Jan 1.

Male/female gender breakdown for LOTR: I can't remember if this was noted in one of the articles I linked to or not, but the gender breakdown was slightly more male for FOTR, but for TTT it was exactly 50/50. The reporter's theory is that once the woman of the house saw FOTR on DVD, she blinked and said, "Hey, nobody told me this was a good story! All I heard about were these stupid battles!"

It reminds me of the first Terminator movie. I didn't go to see it in the theatre. All I heard about was the violence, which was terribly offputting. Then when it came out on video, I watched it at home (ready to flee if needed from the really gross scenes), and I discovered this amazingly beautiful romantic love story of true love which was this major theme throughout the whole movie. I turned to my (then) husband and said, "You never told me there was a love story!" He looked at me blankly. "Every movie has a love story," he said. :rolleyes: Well, yes, but it makes a difference to some of us how it is handled, you see. Ah, well.

zkgrumpy, Highlander was savory. I didn't follow the show, but what I saw, I really liked! The historical aspect is no doubt why it attracted such a literate following. And I adore Mary Stewart's "The Crystal Cave" series.
a 67-year-old woman whose sig line was "I'm *NOT* too old for this!"
I love this woman!

Happy viewing, everyone! See you on the other side! :k

Merewyn

12-16-2003, 06:22 PM

Happy 5,000 posts Faculty. Mind if I join you for a celebratory champagne?? Has one anyway.

grumpy, Boxing Day is the day after Christmas and is a public holiday in the UK, Australia and NZ. The tradition comes from the Middle Ages when the 'alms box' to which the nobles had donated gifts of money was opened and the 'alms' distributed to the poor. In later times it was also when little gifts were given to servants by their employers. (Frodo could have presented Sam with a gift of tobacco on that day if it had been a Middle Earth tradition) :p :) My elderly mother once told me that when she was a child she opened her Christmas presents on Boxing Day.

In Australia it also marks the start of the end of year summer holidays once family Christmas observances are over. Among other Boxing Day traditions (start of Sydney-Hobart yacht race, first day of the cricket at Melbourne, visiting friends and heading to the beach) it is the biggest movie going day of the year. So this is the day that RotK will open to down under. (Too many crowds for me though plus I need a little get-away so I'm taking my tent and camping for the long weekend).

Hope that's not too much information!

grumpy and Mariole, I also loved Mary Stewart's "Crystal Cave" series which I read in the mid-70s. I read a lot of Arthurian tales after that and seeing that someone - yes a woman - suggested I read LotR.

(((Sheryl))) Thank you for thinking of us. Im fairly unspoiled for present and will try to remain that way so Ill be leaving the boards alone until after Ive seen it. In the meantime Ill be seeing TTT EE on the big screen this week, will see if I can view the SNL clips on frodoandsam.net AND I found a DVD of Paradise going cheap havent watched it yet so will look for fro-shadowings on it. Well, we have to make the best of what weve got. :)

Hope you all enjoy your viewings tonight and over the next few days.

(((Faculty)))

shilohmm

12-16-2003, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by zkgrumpy

It is hysterically funny that the media is so completely clueless about this.

You know, best I can tell, the "public image" of a Star Trek fan is still the pimple-faced teenage *male* geek. :rolleyes: I've been in ST fandom since the seventies, done tons of conventions and etc., and there're usually more females than males. And that's the more casual fans - you get into the serious fans in many subcategories (costumers, people who do zines), and it can be nearly all female. I've never been in a situation where the guys outnumbered the girls - although I admit the guys are more likely to be high school or college age while a lot of the ladies are older.

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
I've spent most of the last decade in Highlander fandom. Guess what? Despite the touching belief by the producers and stations that showed it, that they were going to attract 18-24 year old males, fandom was overwhelmingly female. And OY did we spend money! Conventions, swords, tapes, coasters, cards, posters, books, jackets, t-shirts - you name it.

Zines. A friend of mine's done a slug of Highlander zines - and when you consider that people can get Highlander fanfic on the Internet for free, it's even more astonishing that her zines sell (they're fifteen to twenty bucks a pop!).

originally posted by zkgrumpy
Many women seem to like sword/sorcery/fantasy works, written or filmed.

Half the current sword and sorcery and fantasy books on the shelves right now are written by women, or were last time I checked! Maybe it was just the selection at that store, but I don't think so. Fantasy by women started really coming into its own in the 1970's. I remember laughing evilly at two of the introductions to the original Dangerous Visions, a collection of "the best new" s-f. The guy who collected the stuff, Harlan Ellison, introduced one story by saying the author was the "best new female author on the horizon" or some such, then introduced another story by saying, "if so-and-so is the best new female author, this one is the best new male." But the "best new male" was James Tiptree, Jr., who was later revealed to be female... :p

Goldie,
You and peaceweaver going to hit ROTK together? We know some other people from church are going tonight but don't have any plans for meeting them. Three and a half more hours!

Flourish,
Hey, here, have some cake before you run off! :)

Mariole staggers in, sees the party, and grabs a drink in each hand.

Whoa. Oh boy. Where's Frodo with that coffee? :D

originally posted by Merewyn
Mind if I join you for a celebratory champagne??

Sheryl hands Merewyn a champagne goblet and gives her the choice of champagne or a selection of sparkling ciders.

originally posted by Merewyn
Hope that's not too much information!

Is there such a thing? :confused: :confused: :D Thanks for the info, Merewyn. I still have a hard time getting used to the idea of Christmas opening the summer holidays. ;)

Sheryl

tgshaw

12-16-2003, 10:15 PM

Originally posted by shilohmm
I see that Trilogy Tuesday is going to be a looong day of, "My turn now; I'm off!" What fun!
Well, it's not Trilogy Tuesday--just the midnight RotK showing, but I'm off! Behind schedule, as it took me forever to get a printout of my online ticket purchase made a few weeks ago--shouldn't need it, but you never know, especially when it'll be impossible to buy another one. For the midnight showing of FotR, this theater planned to use one screen, then opened a second one when the first one sold out about 11:00 pm. For TTT, they ran three screens and all were sold out before showtime. On the website just now I see that they're running six screens tonight for RotK and all are sold out! There's only one showing sold out for tomorrow--7:00 pm--but, then, they're having 19 showings (not counting the midnight one).

So, not much time to comment on anything, again! But I did want to drop off Happy Birthday Wishes for shadowcatshadow!! :)

Also brought a cake, for SCS's birthday and for any stragglers at the 5000-post party. Sheryl, I have to say that your "shadow cake" is undoubtedly absolutely delicious, but right now it's reminding me more of a certain arachnid than a shadow. (Yeah, I know, too many "legs" ;) . Maybe it's Her Highness and her shadow :p )!

http://www.imagemagician.com/images/tgshaw/off topic/www_pics_am-food231-60.jpg

I usually pack a few cough drops in case I get a tickle in my throat during a long movie--tonight I'm packin' cough syrup with codeine!! Hope I can walk the line between coughing so much I bother people and nodding off from the drowsy effect I get from the medicine :p !

See you on the flip side!

(((Faculty)))

{{{Those who still have to wait}}}

ainon

12-16-2003, 10:28 PM

deluby deluby deluby delby! ((((((((deluby)))))))) I've missed you!!!! :k Thank you for that lovely (nay, Perfect!) gift and you make sure you get yourself right back here after the trilogy, y'hear? ;) :k

I got to wait till the 20th for my LOTR marathon. We didn't have a trilogy Tuesday here, although the extended editions are being screened up to 4, 5 times a day every day in major cinemas. :cool: But I am watching RotK tonight ... 8 hours 15 minutes to go. I managed to get through half the working day. I don't know how I'm gonna last through the rest of the day. I'm starting to get paranoid fears about maybe my ticket having the wrong date printed on and the movie had already been screened last night :eek: I don't dare drink or eat even :eek: and this is just for RotK. For the trilogy marathon day I'm probably gonna have to start fasting two days before. :p

Kuduk - your blessings and best wishes. The most practical one I've heard!

Originally posted by grumpy
And when will they get the idea that women don't need movies to give them role models, and that we often don't go to the movies to watch beautiful women?

Hear hear! Or to see hunky men. Although we don't complain about over-abundance of nice males per dose of movie, of course not. Nor do we grumble about extended angstiness amongst such males. Nope, no complaints in that department at all, no sirree ....

Nice to see you, Merewyn. Appreciate you telling us about Boxing Day - and like Sheryl says, how can there ever be too much info? :D When I was little I never could understand out why international calendars would mark some countries having a special holiday to go boxing.

Whiteling - when's your viewing? You'll get the English version, won't you?

tg - enjoy your vacation to Middle Earth and may your boss never catch on. :D

8 hours now for me ...

Sheryl, thank you for those desserts. But I suppose I'll skip the eggnog ... may I adopt the kitty though? ;)

(((Faculty))))

and the cutest Billy & Elijah pic ever (http://beastybunny.com/lotr/billy/groupshots/images/nzpress113003_009.jpg) posted by Vinnie in the Playgroup. ((((Vinnie)))

shadowcatshadow

12-17-2003, 02:52 AM

That was an interesting, lovely, rich looking cake. :cool:

whiteling

12-17-2003, 03:49 AM

Ainon - I'll view our precious tomorrow evening... that's another -- o my God -- 33 hours :eek: ! And yes, M'am, the English version. The Trilogy marathon is here only shown with German dubbing.
To hear a strange voice even the dubbing is well done, implies always a loss of intensity and authentic impact. The German voice of Frodo is soft and fits EW's type fine, the speaker does a good job, but I'm not able to enjoy it knowing how sweet Frodo's voice
really is!
It is as if one's subconscious exactly senses that it is deceived!

Perhaps I can watch the movie next week again, cos I'm going on christmas holidays on saturday but there will be only little filthy cinemas (you know these with microscopic sized screens and lousy sound... and the German dubbing :rolleyes: ), in the area where we'll spend our holiday, I'm afraid.

Thanks for that adorable pic of Billy and Elijah :) !

Tg, your comment on Sheryl's "shadow cake" has put the fear of God into me - Shelob is what I fear the most in ROTK :eek: :eek: :eek: - I'm arachnophobic to such an extent, it's
pathetic.
Btw, Shelob's German name is "Kankra". That sounds really disgusting to German ears.

(((Faculty))) - happy viewing, everyone! See you when the tide has turned ;) !

deluby

12-17-2003, 06:19 AM

Thanks for all the welcome-backs!!!! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. :k

Just got back from the Trilogy showing, greatest. experience. ever! There's nothing compared to watching it with diehard fans. Audience reaction was incredible. Both the theater and NewLine made it such an enjoyable event I wish they would do it every year around Christmas. It was very organized, the theater offered discount concession food and free pizza, and kept us entertainted during the intermission between each film. NewLine gave out very nice film frame collectibles to everyone attended. It made us feel really special. :)
On ROTK(no spoilers), I cried, I cried so hard, there were a couple of scenes where the tear just would not stop, I had to bite my lips not to make a sound. I sat through the whole end credit trying to regain my composure. I've never cried that much during a film before, the emotional impact of this one is IMHO 10 times the one in FOTR, I was reaching for tissue about 15 mins into ROTK. People around me were wiping tears constantly as well.
I'm still not coherent enough to write a proper post(when have I ever written one anyway? :p ), will have to watch it a couple more times to absorb everything. With FOTR and TTT, I used to watch it twice in a row but with ROTK, I don't know if that's possible, still need my eyes you know?

It's quite late and I need to go to bed, but just a quick note before I leave, RE: Angeleno requests, I'll go get them hopefully tomorrow or the next day, and I'll let you know ASAP(there's a chance that I won't be able to access the internet during the next few days(RL kicks in again) but I'll report in when I get my connection back.) :)

Happy ROTK viewing everyone!!! :k

tgshaw

12-17-2003, 10:51 AM

Waves at Deluby as we "pass in the night." -- Come back soon!

kuduk and ainon and anyone else wondering :) -- I got away with one day of vacation (Wednesday, today). I'd scheduled more, so I could re-watch the first two movies before seeing RotK, and then have a bit of recuperation time afterward, but the one day takes care of the important things: getting to the midnight show, and going again this afternoon with Hellga, who has a chemistry exam this morning so couldn't go at midnight. We did the same thing for FotR, and the second viewing helped me a lot to accept the movie as a movie. Without giving any spoilers, I'll say that I don't have that problem with RotK. It pulls me in completely even with the story changes.

Of course, Elijah's beyond perfect throughout. Viggo comes into his own, too, IMHO. Two very different types of actors. Before RotK last night, there was a preview of Viggo's next movie--the first one in which he's the undisputed lead, I think. It's an action-adventure based on a true story of a man and the horse who loves him--although I didn't notice much snogging :p . Viggo seems to be be an actor who can do the action "stuff" well, and also give it some heart. While Elijah is... what? An actor who gives his characters his entire heart... and soul... and mind... and body? I wish the best for them both--and that's not too hard, since I don't think they'll be competing against each other for very many roles ;) . (But, y'know, I have a really hard time imagining Viggo pulling off SNL the way Elijah did--it's a bit weird to look at a pic of Todd immediately after seeing RotK!) I was crossing my fingers that we'd also see a preview for ESOTSM, but no such luck :( .

Also without giving away any spoilers, I believe I can safely say there's one very Faculty-oriented project to be prepared for after everyone's seen RotK. We have some serious smile analysis ahead of us ;) ! (BTW, lovely skin folds on that FYC ad Deluby posted, yes?? :p )

honeyelf

12-17-2003, 11:07 AM

TGShaw said:
We have some serious smile analysis ahead of us !

We certainly do!

Honey!

zkgrumpy

12-17-2003, 12:00 PM

Thanks for the explanation about Boxing Day! I had visions of The Earl of Wazzis and Lord Whozzits squaring off with boxing gloves. ;D

There's a description in one of Dorothy Sayers's short stories about a traditional dance - Sir Roger de Coverly? Is that an old tradition? Is it a traditional part of Boxing Day?

Ephiphany Day (Jan 6) is an old tradition where I grew up (eastern Pennsylvania). Is it celebrated Over There? My grandmother always made two pies for Epiphany day. :)

Originally posted by deluby
[B]Thanks for all the welcome-backs!!!! Makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. :k

Tricksey! Wicked! We wants it!!! :::: recovering composure :::: I may have to go see it sooner than later.

CNN had a line at the bottom of their screen last night summarizing the article about Elijah's career path - that he likes Johnny Depp's career path better than Mark Hamil's.

Just got back from the Trilogy showing, greatest. experience. ever! There's nothing compared to watching it with diehard fans.

A friend said that there were a lot of elaborate running jokes during the movie in her group but you had to know LotR, Linux, and the Theory of Relativity to understand them (and they say we're geeks!) :p

Audience reaction was incredible. Both the theater and NewLine made it such an enjoyable event

My friend said that most of the time you could hear a pin drop. Cheers at appropriate times, some sobbing, squeals from some when Legolas appeared and competing cheers from Gimli-ites when Gimli appeared, just to annoy the Legolas-ites. :)

She was, however, very offended because they had police providing security. I'm going to be doggedly optimistic that it was because of the Paris incident where fans crashed the premiere events. Otherwise, dangerous geeks! Wicked! Trickssssssey! Falsssssse! ;)

I wish they would do it every year around Christmas.

I think it's an excellent idea. Disney has always done it with their blockbusters - I saw Snow White in the 50's and it was out since the 30's. I also saw Gone with the Wind in theaters in the early 60's, and they were still showing it in theaters in the 70's. So why not?

~grumpy (have I mentioned how weary I am of seeing the word "geek" used in every news article about LotR? Does anyone really know what a geek is? It's a wonder people didn't stay away in droves to avoid being tagged)(Talked to my brother today - he's never read LotR (he's getting it for Christmas BWAHAHAHA!!! - and said "Oh, yeah, that's that big Christian epic!" It's funny how every group interprets it differently.)(My nephew - the one who read my copy to pieces in the 70's - is into it. Can't wait till Christmas to talk to him)(getting the urge to make plum pudding this year)(I should lie down till the urge passes ;) )

shilohmm

12-17-2003, 01:00 PM

Non-spoilery ROTK viewing comments.

Originally posted by zkgrumpy

My friend said that most of the time you could hear a pin drop. Cheers at appropriate times, some sobbing, squeals from some when Legolas appeared and competing cheers from Gimli-ites when Gimli appeared, just to annoy the Legolas-ites. :)

While this silence was mostly my experience, I had the great "luck" to be sitting by an anti-Frodoite, who greeted EW's first few appearances with, "Oh, not this guy again" and "I can't believe they're cutting to this boring **** again" and other various moans and mutterings. But even he was silenced about a third of the way in. ;)

Evesdropped on exiting comments, and met up with some friends of ours from church and their group of friends (all book lovers), and everyone, I mean EVERYONE, book lover or book ignorant, was absolutely blown away. Since there were at least four theatres playing ROTK, and they all let out at roughly the same time (our theatre first, by a few minutes), we hung out in the lobby a bit waiting for the traffic to clear, and I overheard one lady commenting on the acting and characterization - "Every moment, whether they were talking or not. I knew exactly what they were thinking. It was amazing!" :)

Some what spoilery observations ahead (no plot details).
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I was the only one who had anything like a negative response, which was not a terrifically negative response, but just disappiontment over missing some of my favorite scenes or scene bits - although many of my favorites were there, as well. I can see why some Frodo fans were fretting, but I think the movie works very well and where PJ "took" from Frodo here, he gave to Frodo there, ending up with a very similar balance to the character. I walked out just stunned - not stunned in horror or anything like that, but dazed both by the impact of what PJ had done and by what he had changed. But I had literally adjusted to most of it and saw how PJ had shown the same elements of Frodo's characterization with different details by the time we'd gotten home (10 minute drive). It is fascinating to me how PJ maintained the emotional balance of the character and the same overall impact while changing some of the specifics of the plot.

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End spoilery stuff.

Smile analysis, yes, but that's just a start! I am fascinated by the choices PJ and EW made on how to play various scenes - and also interested in how EW Sean Astin played a couple of lines from the books (which in one case with Sam was more angsty than I'd "played" it in my head!). Lots and lots of stuff I'm aching to discuss - but at the same time I really want to absorb it more before plunging into it. Astonishing work from Elijah, Sean, Billy Boyd, Dom Monaghan - incredible acting in this film from even the no-name soldiers who're in one or two shots! Awesome movie on many levels, but it the acting in this film doesn't achieve official recognition... like tgshaw, I realize I have no threats to offer, but I will be Very Angry, and so will everyone else who appreciates excellent acting.

I am not much for awards, since I think they're so political, but, good Lord! If this movie doesn't rack up serious acting awards (not to mention other awards), I will have no respect and no interest, not even casual curiosity, for the awarding authorities in question. They will have proven that the awards are not just politically influenced, but completely disassociated from merit.

We will ignore the fact that it's remotely, remotely possible that individual actors somewhere else may have done an extraordinarilly good job this year - the actors in LOTR provided performances of incredibly depth and subtlety (when the role called for it) in three films with a filming schedule (including pick-ups) that lasted for *years*. No one else can possibly have matched not just the quality of acting, but the level of that accomplishment. It should be recognized, it absolutely ought to be recognized.

Sheryl

honeyelf

12-17-2003, 01:29 PM

Regis is an idiot!!! "Where you a child actor in high-school?" :confused: Duh! Do some research, Regis! Kidney stone my eye. Well, at least Elijah got a chance to show his usual graciousness.

RoTK: Elijah was brilliant. Very athletic perfromance. Does he care one whit for that lovely face? He doesn't seem to, the way he fell right on it at least once. Having said that, Sean was brilliant to.

more later, must dash off to work and try not to cry anymore.

Honey!

Hobmom

12-17-2003, 02:44 PM

Saw ROTK..Still too tired from midnight viewing to make sense yet.

Some ROTK Spoilers....

I thought of putting some of this in the review thread but other discussions have, for the time being, taken that thread over.

It is too much too take in at once.

SOOO much overwhelming emotion that I couldn't cry first time around. Just sat there feeling slightly numb and going this is IT....ROTK!!! It didn't feel real.

Elijah is amazing, heart-breaking, brilliant. There is nobody like him on this planet and nobody could have played Frodo as he has.

He is a jewel of a person and actor.

Elijah's and Sean's scenes in ROTK will be etched in my mind forever as the most beautiful things I have ever seen on screen in any film anywhere.

Now that parts of my brain are trying to wake up I can begin to feel the tears try to form that couldn't work their way out last night. They surely will when I see it again as soon as possible.

The scope of the movie is vast and the battles have to be there because they are also there in the book but they really are all a backdrop for those 'two little hobbits' struggling agonizingly across the plains of Mordor. When Elijah and Sean are on screen everything condenses down to their pain and anguish and the intolerable unbearable weight of the Ring.

Elijah's face! Elijah's face! I am in awe of the feeling he can convey. He can just knock you off your feet with the emotion he communicates with every expressive exquisite muscle.

His face IS the story. It's all there. And he managed to convey post quest Frodo's monumental loss and pain with few words but again... that face!!! Pale and frail and trying to smile and just not 'being there'. Not being the Frodo he was before and knowing it. Knowing he has lost himself and his strength. His last few scenes are for me the most beautiful of the trilogy.

Others have quibbled about changes from canon. I have to take these films as they are. The ending was almost perfect post quest canon. Other things were changed but everything was wonderful beyond words.

And there is of course...Elijah.

I will definitely have lots more to say as I absorb this last and greatest of the three films and what Elijah Jordan Wood has done to me.

ainon

12-17-2003, 09:25 PM

Whiteling, you're almost there! :k

I was at a charity premiere, which started right on time, without any commercials. It's not technically a little thing I like to qualify for the Little Things thread, but hey, it is a great thing to plunge right into Middle Earth without :rolleyes: :rolleyes: through Carlsberg and whatever beer ads boring you half to death. :p :D

About movie: way overwhelmed, way happy, heck, make that way way way happy. :D

Agree with Sheryl's spoilery bits. I went in totally spoiler-free but aware that there'd be Frodo plot element changes. Once I spotted the first change, the rest simply followed, fitting in beautifully.

Spoiler comment

it was easy to spot the moments that'd been cut for time, and clearly most of the angst was what had to make way. didn't matter though. there's the DVD. in the meantime, there's this one entire movie. :)

right now, my best moment from the movie is the one of Frodo & Gandalf laughing together. it brings the story full circle. made the movie perfect - and amped up the angst somehow, in a way that I never thought pure laughter could do.

/End Spoiler Comments

Going back to tgshaw's splended observations that kuduk had quoted: '... images that "hit us" through our senses and stay there' --- I know there're far more important things going on in the world, but I'm thanking God that I'm living in these times of the LOTR movies. ;) They may be just movies, based only on some book by an English professor who wasn't even a professional writer, but the visions they've given me, and the emotions that well up as I watch them, and the international friendship gained from the need to bond over the movies: priceless.

((((Faculty))))

(((((((who're waiting to see it!))))))

Alyon

12-17-2003, 09:32 PM

Hi all

Came home to find my daughter checking out The Faculty--finally she can look, now that she has seen the movie. Everyone has been so good about spoilers, but she has been so paranoid she wouldn't look at anything--and all day in line and between the other movies at the trilogy yesterday she had her headphones on. All her efforts almost got ruined 10 minutes before RotK was to begin, when a guy standing next to our seats started a conversation with his two friends by saying, "I don't remember what happens in Return of the King." And his friends start enumerating everything!! So daughter stabs her fingers in her ears and starts singing....

As to the movie---I am reeling. It was so magnificent, and yet I am still unsettled by some of the choices.

Spoilers

I am too tired to go through some of the specifics---but it seems every reviewer recounts Frodo's trusting of Gollum to be about his losing his judgement because of the ring. this is quite a factor in the movie---but does it come across that it is not just about bad judgement--but about Frodo having compassion and that in the end his pity for gollum is what made it possible for the Ring to be destroyed? It is such a central and important theme. And I see you can tease it out of the movie---but is it clear???? Convince me that it is and I'll be happy. Tell me I'm wrong. But I don't hear that being talked about. And that is sad to me. Also-as much as PJ wants there to be parallel between Frodo and Gollum--Frodo was never like Gollum. Frodo gets the Ring and agrees to destroy it. Gollum kills someone right when he first sees it so that he can have it. I can definitely see that Frodo is depicted differently--because he doesn't kill gollum when he attacks him after Shelob. he forgives him. But still---I think the movie mostly makes it seem as if Frodo's bad judgement has him trusting Gollum and doesn't make it clear that in the end it was the right thing to do--to have pity, anyway.

I have some quibbles--where was the mithral coat at the black gate? How come we don't get to see the other ringbearers revealed?? (DVD?). Why didn't Frodo give Sam Bag End, and why couldn't we hear one chorus of Frodo of the nine fingers or whatever it was called).

Oh yes and of course turnign sam away....and Especially Sam not putting on the Ring. Oh he should have, to really show the effect of the Ring and that only Frodo can really bear it for long

Those things being said--I was also blown away. The grandeur, the characters the acting--everything more personal. I like that Merry and Pippin talk more about Frodo when he is gone--and worry about him. I don't remember them doing that as much in the book. I liked Gandalf a lot in this movie. And Elijah was terrific. Truly terrific. This was real movie-making. But nonetheless I feel unsettled about those things I stated before. Perhaps in a second viewing that unease will go away.

My daughter, having not read the books was transported. She said she has never in her life been so tense in a movie. Her muscles ached afterwards from clenching. It was so great that she could be surprised. She actually thought Frodo was dead when Shelob stung him. (though in her mind she was trying to figure out--because she had heard about Shelob, just not what happened--and had known it was supposed to be in TTT--then if Frodo had died in TTT, would he have at all been in RotK book??---the girls mind was racing)

End Spoilers

This is a fast and rambling post. I am very tired. What an intense and moving film. Everything was great except I feel like l'm in a slightly different Frodo universe. I"m not quite comfortable with it. I'm tired of reviews saying Sam was the hero. I can see some mixed samples of that. But not all...

And I have to figure it out. I may adjust just fine.

P.S---I reiterate--for all those who loved Elijah's acting. Go out and post where they ask for your comments. Post at TORN in the review section. Do it for Lij.

stormyday

12-17-2003, 09:43 PM

Popping into the Faculty because I have been skimming the 'professional' reviews and have found almost *nothing* about Elijah's performance! :( :(

A great deal about Sean Astin's but little about 'Lij. If anyone comes across comments about Elijah, please share the joy!

ainon

12-17-2003, 10:16 PM

Stormyday, now that is one heckuva fine avatar. ;) ((((stormyday)))

Originally posted by stormyday
A great deal about Sean Astin's but little about 'Lij. If anyone comes across comments about Elijah, please share the joy!

I'm only just starting to catch up on interviews and reviews which I'd been avoiding before. Maybe it's just lucky that I came across this one first:

from chud.com
by Nick Nunziata (nick@chud.com)

Woods job has been a tough one as well. Often required to play off of Astin and Andy Serkis, he almost seemed out of his league at times in the film. With recurring dialogue like Oh, Sam and the job of conveying the allure of the ring, it seemed that the actor was forced to carry the burden not only onscreen but creatively as well. Thankfully, Elijah Wood has some wonderful moments of darkness and uncertainty here and when the epic story is winding down he is given some truly affecting dramatic meat to chew on. When the smoke clears I think that the casting and execution of the hobbit characters could have sunk the saga, but instead serves as its secret weapon. Astin, Boyd, Monaghan, and Wood really deliver some solid work here.

Mr. Nick Nunziata has more to say for Ian McKellen, Viggo and Bernard Hill though.

((((Alyon)))) ... a lot of that will be in the DVD, I imagine. whole swaths of the plot are missing; I'm still reeling from how much PJ managed to get into the time he had! Also very impressed to remember again how much detail Tolkien had to begin with.

Alyon's Daughter, what say you? :)

edit to add Harry Knowles' comments from aicn.com

Elijah Wood in many ways has the thankless Mark Hamill role in these films, but if he wasnt perfect the whole thing would topple. His eyes in this film tell such sadness and loss. You can see the innocence he had 2 films ago completely ripped from him. There is something taking seed inside his soul here that places deceit, suspicion, fear, want and spite where once was cheer, song and love. The transformation is complete and that moment where suddenly he can see again absolutely killer.

Mariole

12-18-2003, 12:41 AM

Mildly spoilery review comments on Elijah's acting:

By Michael Sragow, Sun Movie Critic
Wood pulls off the almost impossible feat of playing a character who is constantly losing character and keeping him plangent and unpredictable. You can read the profound volatility of the entire saga in the moody depths of his eyes.

By Chauncey Mabem, Sun-Sentinel
The inspired casting helps make it all possible. ... Elijah Wood, with his limpid, oversized eyes, perfectly expresses Frodo's growing anguish as the Ring-Bearer...
I won't make any comments until I've seen the movie again. I'm very much enjoying everyone else's commentary, however. :k

Hobmom

12-18-2003, 03:21 AM

Harry Knowles knows!!!!

This really deserves repeating....

His eyes in this film tell such sadness and loss. You can see the innocence he had 2 films ago completely ripped from him. There is something taking seed inside his soul here that places deceit, suspicion, fear, want and spite where once was cheer, song and love. The transformation is complete and that moment where suddenly he can see again absolutely killer.

That's what Elijah has accomplished!

When will Elijah be recognized for what he has done?

Rikka

12-18-2003, 05:32 AM

hi all
my congrats for all you, lucky folk, with the ROTK opening.

for stormyday
more prof reviews on Wood's acting in ROTK

By Ty Burr, Globe Staff
Boston Globe

Humanity is accorded mostly to the hobbits, and mostly because Frodo and Sam have nothing to do but suffer on the long road to the Cracks of Doom. There isn't a bad performance anywhere in these films, but Elijah Wood comes out of "The Lord of the Rings" with extra laurels, so wearily and sorrowfully does the actor carry the growing weight of his character's mission. Many are wounded in "The Return of the King" but only Frodo is truly scarred, and only in him are you struck by the cost of what is lost.

By Jeffrey Overstreet (promontoryartists/org^:

It is hard to imagine actors who could have portrayed Frodo and Sam better. No film that comes to my mind has portrayed a more intimate and powerful friendship. Their transformation from simple whimsical folk to battered, beleaguered survivors is heartbreakingly convincing. Astin will likely earn more acclaim and attention for his part; tearful breakdowns win awards. But Woods emotional performance equals Astins, a riveting portrayal of disintegration.

By James Berardinelli (movie-reviews.colossus.net) :

The acting shines through more in The Return of the King than in the other films. Elijah Wood is excellent as Frodo, a shell of the cheerful hobbit he once was.

Eagles' Eyrie

12-18-2003, 06:28 AM

Hi everybody - I'm back!

Well, it's been a long year waiting for RotK and I did extremely well avoiding any type of spoilers and it was worth every minute of it. I'm still in shock from the movie last night. I cried right to the end of the credits, I cried all the way home, and periodically today at work I've been feeling teary again. Wonderful, wonderful wonderful!! And any complaints that I had were only minor. I'm viewing it again on Friday (just got my ticket) and I can now view all the websites I want without fear of spoilers again.

So how have things been? I've missed this place over the last year. I see you reached 5000 posts - well done everybody!

More later. Hugs to all.

Flourish

12-18-2003, 07:42 AM

I haven't seen it yet (TONIGHT!--fingers crossed that my older daughter, who's been sick since yesterday, is well enough to go!) but I have kept up with all the spoilers and Alyon, I have to say, you hit on every single point that concerns me about the film. I expect to love it (Ainon is very convincing!:k ), and I know it will transport me. But I am pretty much expecting that the theme of compassion has been subsumed in the idea that Frodo would wish to salvage Gollum. *sigh* Amazing that you listed all of my worrisome niggles! I'll come back after seeing the film and say something about them.

In case anybody was wondering what Elijah was doing the night the film opened (I know I was), The New York Times this morning provides the answer--he went to the movies!

Here are a few excerpts from the article on the front page of the Arts section, by David Edelstein who was there for the trilogy showing at the Loews 42nd Street.

"Nine hours after the first film began, audience members were told to be back in their seats at 9:45 for a very special surprise--and on the dot, the lights went down, the whoops and screams began, and a minute passed in near total darkness. ... Then a roar began to build....

"'Hello everybody,' came the high quaver of Gollum, and the audience shrieked as one: Gollum is addressing us! More than that, he is introducing hobbits! From the upper left door, Dominic Monaghan emerged and bounded down the stairs, touching outstretched hands, then Sean Astin, the Elijah Wood, then the voice of Gollum, Andy Serkis, holding a microphone....

"'Oh my God,' Mr. Wood said. 'You people just sat through one and two? [audience yays] The extended versions? [yays]' Then he uttered a warmly enthusiastic but entirely un-hobbitlike obscenity. As he went on excitedly, I was torn: delighted to [see him] relaxed and expansive, dismayed to see this radiantly smooth-skinned cherub with the curly tresses talking like a sailor.

"'So has anyone had trouble with urination?' Mr. Wood continued.[

:rolleyes: ] There is much assent. 'You have to pace yourself,' he added.

"'You guys are makin' me so proud that you're doing this,' he said. 'You are the first paying audience on planet Earth to see 'The Return of the King.'" [yay]

That was all there was about Elijah, though the reporter waxed on about how much he loved the film and found himself having "the nearest thing to a religious communion" after spending all those rapt hours with a like-minded audience. You can find the whole article, and a little picture of Elijah with fists raised and some (male) fans reaching out to touch him, at

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/18/movies/18RING.html

You have to register to read the Times online but it's free and harmless.

Thanks for the cake, Shilohmm! I'll be back.

shilohmm

12-18-2003, 09:08 AM

(((Eagles' Eyrie)))

So good to see you back! Talk to us, talk to us, we've missed you! :)

Originally posted by Alyon
All her efforts almost got ruined 10 minutes before RotK was to begin, when a guy standing next to our seats started a conversation with his two friends by saying, "I don't remember what happens in Return of the King."

Oh my gosh! Hubby offered to make me a sign saying "Spoiler free zone," but forgot. Fortunately, he didn't need to - the guy next to me was obviously not a book lover, and the other conversations around me were fairly well drowned out by the rowdies in our own row (we were toward the end). They let people go in and sit down in our theatre over an hour and a half before the movie started, so we didn't have to wait in line at all, and we sat at the end of the row and the people behind and in front of us wandered off to talk to friends elsewhere so we didn't even have that many local conversations to block out.

originally posted by Alyon
It was so magnificent, and yet I am still unsettled by some of the choices.

I'm settling some, but that beautifully sums up my initial reaction.

Spoilers
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it seems every reviewer recounts Frodo's trusting of Gollum to be about his losing his judgement because of the ring.

I read a ton of reviews at Rotten Tomatoes and googling; didn't run across much of that. One reviewer argued that Sam was falling under the influence of the Ring at the beginning, and admired Frodo for getting his act together and reuniting them after CU! But I remember that because hubby felt Sam wanted to hang onto the ring in CU; I gotta watch that scene again, since I was so focussed on Frodo first time through. :p

does it come across that it is not just about bad judgement--but about Frodo having compassion and that in the end his pity for gollum is what made it possible for the Ring to be destroyed?

Since the movie is such a "condensed version" of the book, I didn't expect any more on that theme than Gandalf's speech in the Mines of Moria. One thing that convinces me that PJ did a good job with the movies is that he kept some of the "percieved ambiguity" of the book. For instance, there are book readers who actually miss the whole thing about how Frodo and Bilbo's compassion enabled them to get rid of the Ring by sparing Gollum. And I don't doubt there will be movie viewers who don't get it, either, even though the information is there.

Watching ROTK, I realized why PJ had done some stuff in Fellowship that kind of bugged me - namely having them clearly state that taking the Ring to Mordor was Frodo's job and responsibility. PJ uses the elves to get across a lot of the stuff in the books that you understand by being inside Frodo's head - there are people who argue from the book that Sam should have just taken the Ring and done the job without Frodo. Anyone who argues that from the movie is ignoring the clear statement of the prophetic elves that the job is and must be Frodo's.

It is such a central and important theme. And I see you can tease it out of the movie---but is it clear????

I think it's as clear in the movie as in the book - and in both cases, it's there "for them who have eyes to see it", while those who lack that perception may miss it entirely, even when it's spelled out for them.

And that is sad to me. Also-as much as PJ wants there to be parallel between Frodo and Gollum--Frodo was never like Gollum.

I think the scene of Smeagol in the beginning of ROTK demonstrates that PJ does not intend that parallel to go very deep at all - I think in all the "Gollum should be saved" talk PJ is highlighting Frodo's compassion rather than trying to show that Frodo and Gollum are alike. I think according to the movies they could share the same fate, but their starting point is completely different.

Why didn't Frodo give Sam Bag End,

I could excuse most of the others on the grounds of lack of time, but this one still bugs me. One more line in the "Frodo finishing the Red Book" scene, then Sam returning to Bag End - why couldn't they have fit that in? *sulks*

Especially Sam not putting on the Ring. Oh he should have, to really show the effect of the Ring and that only Frodo can really bear it for long.

That was another one I missed. OTOH, hubby argues that PJ shows Sam as *more* vulnerable to the Ring than the book character, *because* Sam never even puts it on, yet he has a hard time giving it back in CU. So, I dunno. Guess I'll have to watch that scene again, and remember that Sam's in it this time. :p

It was so great that she could be surprised. She actually thought Frodo was dead when Shelob stung him.

Too excellent! I think the newbie beside me thought that as well - and he'd been silenced in his Frodo hate by the time Frodo enters the cave with Shelob. The strange thing is, the last time he griped about Frodo was the beginning of the Lembas scene the purists hate. After that I heard no more complaints from him during Frodo bits, and he was obviously involved when Frodo was in Shelob's lair and sat in stunned silence when Frodo was stung - during the first few Frodo scenes I was half afraid he'd softly cheer when Frodo got stung and/or appeared dead, but no such thing.

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End spoilers

originally posted by stormyday
Popping into the Faculty because I have been skimming the 'professional' reviews and have found almost *nothing* about Elijah's performance!

Hi, stormy! waves

I read a bunch of reviews last night, and many of them said something about how Elijah, Ian McK and Viggo turned in their usual excellent performances, then went on to wax poetic over Sean Astin and (sometimes) Billy Boyd. Nearly all of them had at least one line of praise on Elijah, but the attitude seemed to be, "Elijah was as good as expected, but did you see Sean?" I think Sean A is getting more write up because he surprised some people, and because people were glad he finally got a chance to "show his chops."

It's kind of a variation of the old "too good to be noticed" thing we run across with EW's acting, except in this case it isn't people assuming EW is (in essence) "playing himself" or otherwise not acting; it's people who know how good he is and aren't surprised that he handled the part so well! I'd been avoiding reviews (because I was avoiding spoilers), but I had picked up the idea that Sean was getting praise and EW wasn't, so I was watching for that, and I really think it's that Sean gets the more extensive write up but people do recognize EW's work.

Except for one clown who clearly hated EW. :mad: But even some of guys who threw around the phrase "doe eyed" (that phrase never sounds right with a blue-eyed guy, to me), were clearly impressed with EW's acting, even though they didn't wax poetic over it. It does seem like a lot of reviewer sort of dismissed EW (and McKellan and Viggo) with, "they did their usual excellent job" and then went on about SA, but many of them did go on about EW in their earlier reviews of FOTR or TTT, so I forgive them. :p

One reviewer said that reviewing ROTK was a "thankless job," because everyone who has seen and loved the earlier films is going to go see it, while everyone who hasn't... won't. :p So I think a lot of the reviewers *are* looking for something new to say about the performers, and the movie gives them a chance to say things about SA (who, let's be honest, was pretty much ignored in earlier reviews) and Billy Boyd (although half the comments on him are about his singing voice! :p).

Many, many of the reviewers comment on the fact that *every* actor in the movies is excellent, and EW is clearly included in that comment. :)

Spoilery bit
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originally posted by ainon
I'm still reeling from how much PJ managed to get into the time he had!

I am absolutely, positively blown away and so, so grateful for PJ's "multiple endings." He had to have known he'd get grief over that - and he has; at least three quarters of the reviews I read grumped about it - and he had to have known it would confuse some viewers (I've heard that people even at the midnight showings stood up before the movie was over), but he did it anyway. Bless you, bless you PJ for that. :)

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End spoilery Bit

Flourish,
Hope to see it again today with my eldest daughter - good luck to you on getting there with yours! And hope everyone gets to feeling better, here and on all the CC threads! We need to be healthy so we can really lose ourselves in this film. ;)

'So has anyone had trouble with urination?' Mr. Wood continued.

I swear, we were in the row with the *only* people who went to the bathroom during our showing. And one woman went through three times during Shelob and CU! :mad: Could have strangled her. Well, maybe not - but if PJ hadn't opened the movie with Smeagol, I doggone well would have considered it!

Sheryl

zkgrumpy

12-18-2003, 10:33 AM

*NOT ONE* acting nomination?!? NOT ONE?!? How dare they! How dare they not nominate Sir Ian McK. for pity's sake, let alone Elijah, Sean, Viggo, John R-D, even Orlando? Fie! Fie on thee, Golden Globes! And again I say, Fie!

Of course, they wouldn't dare not nominate Tom Cruise. He's the STAR, after all. I doubt if you'd catch him in a movie where so much of the story is shared by so many people, and from what I've heard (even from the most cynical), it all pulls together really well in a short 3.5 hours. I suspect that the acting is *so good* by everyone that there aren't any bad performances to measure against, so nobody stands out. I agree that Elijah had possibly the toughest role, showing someone disintegrating internally.

I know darned well that they're not going to let RotK win much of anything. They certainly won't let a foreign formerly little-known horror-movie director win.

I wish you could have seen a entertainment reporter on - um - CNN? One of those channels. He sat there and blithely said that RotK would not be known for any great acting. WTH?!? Darned if the guys didn't make it look too danged easy.

:::: regaining composure :::: Geez, I'm annoyed.

Did anyone catch - um - Conan? last night? I caught the last few minutes of an interview with Elijah. No pee or fake poop this time. ;D He did, however, say that he wants to build a Bag End someday; it was a very warm and comforting place. Amazing. He talked about PJ building Bag End on his property, too.

Also, Biography had a bio on Patty/Anna Duke last night. There were lots of interviews with Sean Astin. Also baby pics (awwwwwwww....). It's not hard to see where he gets the acting genes, or the source of his portrayal of dogged determination to the task at hand. Patty/Anna Duke has been to Mordor and back (in front of her kids!), and has not only survived but kept going throughout. A remarkable woman.

~grumpyandreallyannoyedwiththeentertainmentindustry (Did you see the things on TORN where Elijah and others showed up at the midnight showing in NYC?)

Maeglian

12-18-2003, 11:31 AM

Hi, EE! Good to see you back here!

I don't have much time, since I have this movie to go to :D..... but I justy have to say how much I loved, loved and loved RotK. Sure, I can summon up purist complaints if I want to, and I have (or had) quibbles, but they simply drown in a sea of deliriously happy angst-appreciating, perfect-acting, imaginative-beyond-imagination appreciation.

What a lovely gift!

A couple of spoilery comments to above posts
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there are people who argue from the book that Sam should have just taken the Ring and done the job without Frodo. Anyone who argues that from the movie is ignoring the clear statement of the prophetic elves that the job is and must be Frodo's. I loved the fact that Galadriel's propetic words about this was repeated in RotK, that Frodo heard them in his mind.... Also his words to Sam in CU, but I can't quite remember them now, having only seen the film once. A matter to be remedied soonish. :) But I thought it came across sufficiently clear that Frodo is the only one who could carry the Ring. The way he put the Ring back on in CU contributed to that too, - so very laden with symbolism of taking up a burden that is his alone, accepting his fate. Taking up his cross to carry, was my immediate thought, - apologies for the religious reference which Tolkien wouldn't have liked..... but I couldn't help thinking that. :o

it seems every reviewer recounts Frodo's trusting of Gollum to be about his losing his judgement because of the ring. I'm sure I've seen that in a number of reviews as well. And it's my thought also. The whole lembas theft scene - that*has* to be PJ's take on Frodo calling Sam a thief in CU, and Sam's resulting hurt. I had expected to dislike that scene, but I thought it was fantastic. My heart simply *hurt* for poor Frodo and Sam both. Frodo, so weary and confused and suspicious and affected by the Ring and Gollum both - and Sam hearing those harsh words from Frodo and not being able to convince him otherwise. I think that scene worked on every conceivable level. And if indeed it is the film's take on the CU incident, in that one Frodo does immediately go on to blame the Ring for his behaviour and terrible words.

Otherwise, there is acting analysis and film analysis material for ages to come in that one film. The angst, the emotions, it just blew me away.

I've seen worries that the "End of all things" didn't include Frodo talking about forgiving Gollum, but I can't help it: What we got was so heartwrencihing and beyond awesome that I just wouldn't have had it otherwise. That goes for many a scene.

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*
*
End spoilery comments

Sigh. I'll shut up now.I'll just go look for one reviewer's take on Elijah that I feel like sharing if I can find it again....

Edit.
OK, I found it. This, ladies, is the opinion of Mr. Gregory Weinkauf of Phoenixnewtimes .com. Brace yourselves. I do not think further comments are necessary: :mad:
One other bitch: Elijah Wood. Even after conducting an unofficial poll among random women -- for whom this cinematic Frodo approximates their fantasy of masculine innocence, or something -- his casting remains an irritation. Wood is way too young (Frodo is supposed to be 50 in these adventures), and Ring geeks may be silenced by stating that, aesthetically, he simply lacks the experience to fulfill this role. Wood looks like a spoiled princess in a poufy wig, not a forlorn orphan with a monumental burden. He's a sticky little turd in the middle of an angel food cake. The only salvation is that very soon we'll have the technology to delete Wood on our home computers and edit in someone better. Gene Hackman would have been better.

Flourish

12-18-2003, 11:55 AM

Gene Hackman. Gene Hackman. Saints preserve us.

And Frodo is NOT 50 in the book! He's 50 chronologically but about 33 in truth. I'm so tired of hearing that...... in the presence of such a wonderful performance, must we haggle over his AGE?

*sigh*

zkgrumpy, what things on TORn? I posted above about the sightings in NYC and sent the link to TORn but I haven't seen them pick it up yet. Thanks.

zkgrumpy

12-18-2003, 11:58 AM

Sigh. I'll shut up now.I'll just go look for one reviewer's take on Elijah that I feel like sharing if I can find it again....

Edit.
OK, I found it. This, ladies, is the opinion of Mr. Gregory Weinkauf of Phoenixnewtimes .com. Brace yourselves. I do not think further comments are necessary: :mad:

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

That poor man! Sunstroke, obviously. I hear that the sun and heat in Arizona are really oppressive at times.

But couldn't you have picked a reviewer from a newspaper located *inside* the USA? ::::: grumbling ::::: What? No! Really? You're kidding! When did they let *them* into the Union? I thought they were still part of Mexico?! Didn't they secede recently? Couldn't we push them out into the Gulf of Mexico? :p

:::: ahem ::::

So where does this yutz get canon for Frodo looking 50? Yes, he *was* 50 in the book. But last time this guy saw one, what does a 50-year-old hobbit look like? Harrrrumph. Furthermore, Bilbo had the Ring for 60 years and didn't age (in appearance) past 51 in that time. Frodo had the ring (book) for 17 years and looked like a young hobbit just come of age.

And "lacks the experience"?!? The kid's been acting for over 15 years!! A lot! He's got more acting experience in his big toe than a lot of actors will *ever* have.

I think it's Hobbit-foot envy, myself.

There are *no words* for this reviewer. Harrrumph.

~exceedinglygrumpyandoffendedbeyondwords

stormyday

12-18-2003, 12:08 PM

Maeg, got a phone number or address for this Mr. Gregory Weinkauf? I imagine some of us might want to take this up with him..... :mad: Once again, some man is frightened at Elijah's beauty and ability and must put him down to make himself (who is obviously stupid, ugly, and with very small feet) feel superior.

I am beyond disgusted with the Golden Globes. The intentional blindness of the industry to these movies is simply unbelievable.
:mad:

Edit: Am cheered up slightly by the other reviews posted. I knew the Faculty would have Elijah positive reviews on tap!:D

peaceweaver

12-18-2003, 02:10 PM

Am popping in (with my eyes closed for spoilers--I see the movie tonight) to tackle Eagles' Eyrie!

How ARE you?!!! :k

As for the idiots who select the nominees for the Golden Globs: fie on them. :mad: It would appear that RoTK is going to be accorded the same treatment given the first two films by Hollywood and its assorted parasites. I fear that those windbags think of this film as a vehicle for special effects and that they cannot see beyond them.

Going stir crazy here waiting for my chance to see the movie, I have been taping as much as I could of the many EW talk show appearances. He was delightful on Conan. I missed the scheduled appearance on the Early Show this morning: was he there? (I had forgotten just how banal and boring and predictable those silly morning shows are.) Does the guy finally get some time off now?

Mariole

12-18-2003, 03:08 PM

I have Conan taped but haven't had a chance to watch it yet. I'm so glad that Elijah was entertaining! He's gotta be burned out -- he started his promotional work with the Canada tour on 11/19 and has hardly had a day off without some event or appearance since then (sometimes 3 events or more a day). Yow!

I'm very disappointed in the Golden Globe omissions. They sometimes come through for me when the Oscars don't. I'm disappointed, but not terribly surprised. There were always people who didn't get Tolkien -- not when the books were first published, and not today. All the films have done is spread that magic to a much wider audience. Hordes of people "get" it, as witnessed by the worldwide phenomenon.

But we're also going to get a lot more people, statistically, who "don't" get either Tolkien, or the characters, or what have you. Particularly when you have film critics who are forced to go to a 3+-hr movie that they have no interest in. They're going to be angry at sitting through such a long movie, and their reviews will reflect that, and it's a shame because they are not speaking for the general public. Tolkien's work has always been special and different. A lot of people dismissed it in his time, and they will do so today. It didn't stop Tolkien's masterpiece from (eventually) being recognized as a top literary work, regardless of the people who wanted such recognition to go to a work that was more "deserving."

Some things never change, both the condescension from the powers-that-be and the magic for the folks who find their world transformed by the knowledge of Middle Earth. That's what Tolkien set out to do -- create a mythology. For those of us who are receptive to it, the vision is world-altering. His success lives in every one of us who "gets" it, and we'll never lose it. That's why we're here and why we will stay -- regardless of what some of the rest of the world thinks.

*1.5 hours until viewing #2!*

Maeglian

12-18-2003, 05:13 PM

I'm also bummed about the Golden Globes. But I've said it before and I'll say it again: If they fail to recognize or understand how wonderful this is, what an achievement and lovely gift, that's their loss. And *what* a loss!

I've just returned from seeing the film for the 2nd time. Never have I experienced 3,5 hours flying past so quickly. I only want to go back see it again at once.

And I *have* to say this: I bow down in awe before the acting talents of Elijah Wood. My God! It's just amazing!

Spoilery awed comments till end of post!
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*

The scene holding the Ring over the fire - and then putting the Ring on....The end of all things scene, when he finally remembers the Shire again.... and after he's returned there and can't ever really go back again....Those quiet Shire scenes at the end.... the journey in the wagon next to Bilbo.... the farewell at the havens! I just don't have the proper words. The acting is superb - I am dying for screencaps - right now! I'm way impressed with the acting choices - that Frodo doesn't weep at the havens strikes me as perfect.

tgshaw

12-18-2003, 06:23 PM

Know what?? I completely forgot about Elijah's morning talkshow appearance as well as Conan yesterday :eek: ! I slept through both--but I was sleeping between movie viewings :) .

Spoilery awed comments till end of post!
*
*
*

Originally posted by Maeglian
The scene holding the Ring over the fire - and then putting the Ring on....
...a bronzed statue--whether Greek or Renaissance, I'll let someone else decide.

The end of all things scene, when he finally remembers the Shire again....
I cry when I read books, not when I watch movies--not even FotR. But that look of complete peace on Frodo's face after he says "It's gone" opened the floodgates and they never really stopped. Even moreso the second time around. You can tell that, as Tolkien said, Frodo expected to die then and there, and he's so much at peace that part of me wants him to...

.... the journey in the wagon next to Bilbo....
When he tells Bilbo, "I'm afraid I lost it," the difference between his tone of voice, which Bilbo hears, and the expression on his face, which he knows Bilbo won't see...

- that Frodo doesn't weep at the havens strikes me as perfect.
I want some interviewer to ask Elijah how hard that was, especially considering he sobs when he's watching it. But he did say that it now reminds him of parting from his friends when filming was over, and IIRC the scene was actually shot quite early during the primary filming (they shot all the scenes Sir Ian Holm was in early on). So maybe it didn't affect him so much at the time. But it just floors me that Elijah gave us a perfect post-Quest Frodo when he hadn't even been through the Quest yet! Just IMVHO--because I don't know much about acting--that out-of-sequence shooting had to have taken acting talent far beyond anything I can imagine. Especially playing Frodo!

I am dying for screencaps - right now!

Yes, yes, yes!! I kept seeing shots that just screamed for them! And this year, with the Academy's new "anti-piracy" policy of not sending copies of movies to voters, I'm very fearful that it will be a bad year for crebain hunting :( :( . (I mean, I think piracy is a very bad thing and all--but couldn't they have waited just one more year :rolleyes: ??)

ainon

12-18-2003, 06:52 PM

((((Eyrie))) At long last, you've returned. :)

mildly spoilerly remark for non-book readers ... the eagles looked mighty fine, didn't they? Watching those eagles swoop in was like something out of National Geographic Wildlife Action 30x Improved. I was grinning like an idiot *and* marvelling at their wingbeats and talons. :p

Speaking of National Geographic, I saw the RotK edition of Nat Geo Channel's 'Beyond the Movie' last night. Elijah was being interviewed at a time when his hair looked decent! And his face was smooth! He was neat! And young. He looked rather younger than during the interview clips we see on the TTT SEE disc. I wonder when Nat Geo got its cast interview footage.

Right now, I am so seriously going through withdrawals. I'll be attending my LOTR marathon tomorrow so have another 36 hours to wait till my second RotK viewing. Bitterly regretting that I didn't make better effort to get my hands on the overnight marathon that's happening tonight ... if I had, I could be watching RotK at sunrise tomorrow - now doesn't that sound grand? Not that I would have known it was sunset while cooped in a cinema theatre, but still. I need another dose. I need another dose *now*!

(((Flourish)))) Hope you get to see it. Or that you've seen it. :k Others have done excellent jobs answering the questions you and Alyon have ... trust us. :) Everything's there. Moved around, shifted lines, altered scenes - but the spirit remains exactly the same.

RotK Spoiler

Gollum's brief almost-redemption was there too, wasn't it? As was Frodo's mercy. After the Shelob attempt, Frodo could have killed him - would have had mighty good reason to kill him - but Frodo spared him and I think Smeagol appreciated that.

Didn't mind Sam not inheriting Bag End - yet. ;) Might be some off-scene moment somewhere when Sam reads Frodo's will and finds out what's what. The way the movie wrapped, it brought a wistful and proud smile to my face to see this humble little hobbit hero returning to his humble cottage with all the cheery flowers in the garden.

Oh, and I thought Sam was tempted, but most likely without even knowing it. He should have given the Ring to Frodo immediately. Instead he held it pretty close to his body, and kept pulling it back to himself even as he was holding it out to Frodo.

/SPOILER

Grumpy, thanks for the Globes news, woeful though it may be. At least we know that there's another group of idiots to avoid. :p :D

Anyone with Conan & Elijah news, please? Conan is one talk show host I used to enjoy, back when we still got his shows here.

Btw, tg, I will see what I can do about this crebain business. There are ways around it ;) but I also imagine that demand will be high - if demand is too high there'll be the trouble of everything being sold out too soon! Quality would be a concern too. :p Unfortunately I haven't had time to go visit my uhh ... source. Will keep you informed. :D

stormyday

12-18-2003, 08:05 PM

Wow. Check out this! Looks like Mr. Wood is determined to enjoy himself after all his hard work!

Louisiana News

Elijah Wood named 2004 Bacchus

NEW ORLEANS Elijiah Wood, who plays Frodo in the "Lord of the Rings" movie trilogy, will reign as king of a Mardi Gras parade in February. Wood, 22, will be the youngest person ever to reign as Bacchus when the 36th annual Krewe of Bacchus parade rolls on Feb. 22.

"Elijah Wood is going to be a great Bacchus," said Owen Brennan, the Captain of Bacchus. "He's very enthused to be a part of New Orleans' Mardi Gras and we think he's going to be a great king."

Any New Orleans Faculty members? It might be a good opportunity to study facial movements! ;)

BLOSSOM

12-18-2003, 08:24 PM

Saw ROTK tonight! I hardly know what to say, I'm still too emotional.

Lingering visions that won't go away:

WARNING: ROTK SPOILERS!!!

The very first shot of Frodo, as he was resting in the cave - beauty beyond words!

Frodo's weariness, his torment, his suffering. SO REAL! SO CONVINCING!

Frodo staggering along, his arm raised to fend off the Eye.

SHELOB!!! :eek: I thought this entire sequence was amazing. Elijah was amazing. His guilt over Sam, his fear, his reaction as Shelob's sting pierced him. Shelob rolling him up in the web. Sam giving her what she deserved - Go Sam! Frodo's face as Sam pulled the web away - that was one dead hobbit.

Frodo held captive in the tower! Nasty Orcses! Frodo realizing the Ring was gone.

Frodo saying sorry to Sam, and then the moment between them when Sam produced the Ring - very tense.

The slopes of Mount Doom. Excellent acting from Elijah and Sean here. Frodo was totally spent, and looked it. His voice, his delivery of 'I am naked in the dark...' Perfection. Heart-wrenching, tear-inducing perfection!

Frodo at the Crack of Doom. Awesome. Simply awesome. The look on Frodo's face as he turned to face Sam and claimed the Ring. Go Elijah!!!

Sam: 'Don't you let go!' Frodo's hesitation as he hung on to the ledge - even my hubby (who is not really a deep-thinking or analytical type - more a practical, believes what he sees man) said he thought Frodo wanted to end it there, as the writing appeared on the Ring as it rested for a moment on the crust of the lava. Frodo was tempted to go with it.

The end of all things!

The look between Frodo and Sam when the Fellowship were reunited.

Frodo's poor maimed hand resting on the Red Book in the study at Bag End.

Frodo and Bilbo in the cart. Frodo's, 'I lost it.'

The Grey Havens! Frodo saying goodbye to Merry, Pippin and especially Sam. Frodo kissing Sam's forehead. His calm, dignified courage as he left behind so much that he loved. His sense of peace. His last smile to his friends.

I was afraid I wouldn't cry, that it wouldn't move me as much as I wanted it to, but I had a lump in my throat so many times during the last hour or so that it hurt. I completely lost it at The Grey Havens, and out came the tissues as the tears came flooding. At the end I just wanted to bawl my eyes out. And now I want to bawl my eyes out again as I write about these images.

Not sure how soon I'll get to see it again. I can't wait.

Hubby loved it, and actually admitted to 'almost losing it' a couple of times towards the end. He wouldn't be specific.

Also loved: Sam; Pippin; Merry; Gandalf; Eowyn; Faramir.

END OF ROTK SPOILERS

Belated Happy Birthday to Shadowcatshadow.

Welcome back Eagles' Eyrie - we've missed you. Do stay with us.

Ditto to Flourish.

Stormyday - I share yours and others concerns about the seeming lack of critical praise for Elijah. I did find a few positive thoughts on his performance in ROTK. Here are some of them:
___________________________________________

Both Astin and Wood are terrific in their performances -- so good, one almost hates to bid them farewell.
Diana Saenger - Reel Talk

The undoubted standouts of "The Return of the King," however, are Elijah Wood and Sean Astin, as Frodo and Sam. It is through their heartfelt bond that exposes the true center of "The Lord of the Rings" trilogy, which is that of a love story, non-sexual in nature, between two best friends who come close to losing each other and must fight to prevail.
Dustin Putman - Themovieboy.com

The inspired casting helps make it all possible - Elijah Wood, with his limpid, oversized eyes, perfectly expresses Frodo's growing anguish as the Ring-Bearer;
Chauncey Mabe - Sun Sentinel.com

As for the leads, they show no weariness in this third and final effort. As Frodo one of literature's classic unlikely heroes Wood adds a spike of menace to his long-suffering role as the ring begins to work its insidious ways on its bearer.
Josh Larsen - SCN Movies

Frodo, on the other hand, is so tormented and feeble it's hard to watch at times, but the soulful Wood plays it beautifully.
Kit Bowen - Hollywood.com

As Frodo, Elijah Wood turns his soulful blue eyes into reflecting pools of naiveté and turmoil. Even he seems uncertain whether he will succeed in destroying the occult ring that threatens Middle-earth, or surrender to its corrupting spell.
Colin Covert - Star Tribune
___________________________________________

So, there ARE others out there with 'eyes that can see.':) Looks like we're not in the majority though.

Trying to be objective - I think Sean rightly deserves his share of the acclaim. His Sam is wonderful. But in my eyes Elijah is equally, if not more, deserving. When I think of his stunning performance as Frodo, and remember how YOUNG he is - and he was even younger - only 18 or19, when some of those harrowing scenes were filmed - I am in total awe of this magnificent young actor! What a remarkable achievement!

Sorry this post is overlong.
It's now 2.25am and I have a splitting headache. Sleep calls, if I can close my eyes without seeing Frodo's face for more than 10 seconds.

Goodnight all.

Edit: Stormyday, just saw your post. Elijah as King of Mardi Gras. Wow. Go Elijah!

Hobmom

12-18-2003, 09:00 PM

Well this HAD to be done! So I did it.

It may or may not influence the Academy but if we all sign this petition and SIGN IT NOW because the nominations go out in only a month...... we will, at the least, be showing our support for Elijah who truly deserves it.

Possibly, it will make enough of the nominating commitee think more seriously about giving Elijah the nomination he deserves.

I will also notify Elijah's management about the petition so HE will know how much we want this for him.

I am going to post this on all of Elijah's sites so it won't just be us signing it. I hope thousands of Elijah's fans will support him in this.

Please sign today! We only have about two weeks to make a BIG impact!

The cut-off date for signing is Jan.10 so that the petition can be sent to the Academy in time for the nominations to be decided.

A Best Actor Oscar Award Nomination For Elijah Wood Petition to the Academy (http://www.petitiononline.com/EliOscar/petition.html)

C'mon. Let's try and make a difference for Elijah!

Flourish

12-18-2003, 10:51 PM

Thanks, Ainon! We made it--and I'm just wiped.:D

I think Blossom got it right--I couldn't have said it better--every moment that had Frodo in it was a triumph to pierce the heart. Elijah has outdone himself, as everyone connected with the filming has been saying all along. There could be nothing better.

Did you notice how pale he was at the Havens, yet how when he turned to look at his friends one last time from the boat, how he was, at last, "the dear master from the sweet days in the Shire," even to the color in his cheeks? What a wonderful touch.

Mordor--wow. He was fantastic, heartbreaking.......

Too much to think about and not enough words--! I'm going to see it again tomorrow.

(Ainon, can't get into my PMs for some reason--will keep trying!)

Alyon

12-19-2003, 02:38 AM

(((Faculty)))

I feel much better for all of your impressions. I loved the movie--I just want so badly for everybody to know Frodo is the hero. You reassure me.

And I want Elijah to be recognized. Go sign Hobmom's petition. Thank you, Hobmom.

(But still.......Spoiler...............I so think Sam should have put on the Ring).

But despite those things I mentioned...there were so many things to love....

Must go to bed. (clunk)

(Oh--Ainon:D :D Daughter intends to post, as you asked--after school tomorrow. I think you coaxed her out!!)

goodnight all!!

:

Flourish

12-19-2003, 08:07 AM

Alyon, for me Frodo's heroism in Shelob's lair--well, it's difficult to go this far out on a limb in such partisan company as the Faculty are :k --but I think the film's realization of his battle there, by giving him so much more to do and

SPOILER

by making him do it alone

end SPOILER
makes up for a lot of what bothered people about his characterization in some scenes in the earlier films.

I think, now that I'm a little more wide awake, that I can identify what I feel is Elijah's outstanding acting moment in the film, if not in the trilogy---I'll try to do this without spoilers but CAUTION just in case:

It's the look on his face as Sam screams "Don't you dare let go!" First, sheer horror, then despairing loss, and then--as if that were not enough to convey without words or hands or body language--the "unreasoning guilt" Tolkien ascribed to Frodo in the book. Unbelievable. A purely invented moment in the film, and what a glorious one it is!

peaceweaver

12-19-2003, 09:02 AM

Inspired by Stormyday's news of Wood as Bacchus, here is a little gift to whet the appetite:

Mardi Gras, anyone? :)

Maeglian

12-19-2003, 10:27 AM

I find myself sitting in meetings at work, while my mind dwells on a rock protuding from flowing lava, or below the stairs of CU. I stop myself just in time from squealing publicly with glee as yet another scene hits me all anew.

I think it's already fair to say that RotK has replaced FotR as my favourite film ever. I would like to talk, talk, talk, about it - but I hardly know where to start because it's all so fantastic. Just Elijah's scenes are so many and so beyond my wildest imaginations (and I can imagine *quite* a lot) that my mind goes boing-boing-boing skipping between the scenes in the most incoherent fashion.

I'm awestruck by that film. Flourish, that "don't you let go" moment you mention - I so totally agree!
One of the things that amaze me the most is how extremely well the various departures from canon work for me. They just entirely capture the emotions and story and characters I was looking for.

And the love and devotion between Frodo andSam on their last horrible leg of the journey before and after Mt. Doom, I'm so happy I could squeal (again).

Seeing the film again tomorrow.

(((Rikka))) - Hang in there! You may yet have some time to go before you see the film, but what you're waiting for is simply lovely!

whiteling

12-19-2003, 10:41 AM

I've seen it, I've seen "The Return of the King" --

I'm still almost unable to hit the proper keys on my keyboard... I am filled to capacity with this powerful, tremendous film. Those images - the music - the colours - the faces - ELIJAH'S face - that all lingers on in my mind and in my heart.

Originally posted by ainon

Going back to tgshaw's splended observations that kuduk had quoted: '... images that "hit us" through our senses and stay there' --- I know there're far more important things going on in the world, but I'm thanking God that I'm living in these times of the LOTR movies. ;) They may be just movies, based only on some book by an English professor who wasn't even a professional writer, but the visions they've given me, and the emotions that well up as I watch them, and the international friendship gained from the need to bond over the movies: priceless.

May I second that? I'm sending 1000 thanksgiving prayers to the universe for that and the providence that a certain young actor found the opportunity to play the role of his life.

Elijah Jordan Wood, this role was appointed to you! (...) And you found your way, oh yes!

Peaceweaver - LOL :) ! A nice Bacchus, very fitting!

(((Blossom))) - hope you are feeling better :) !

Tomorrow I am going on christmas holidays for 9 days. Will be computerless and wish you all in advance MERRY CHRSTMAS -
and many more happy viewings

(((Faculty))) :k

wood

12-19-2003, 10:44 AM

HI everybody!!!
Isaw on torn that sean astin are getting a reward as
best supportin roll im very glad for him but what about
our man whith big M?
WHEN IS HE GOING TO GET ENYTHING not for us ofcuse
but for him self but i raelly dont think he need it he is so
secure in him self,but i really think it about time anyway!!Do
you guys now what i meen?It really heard to say in another
launguge but ihope you anderstand me!!!!!!:cool: :cool: :cool:

zkgrumpy

12-19-2003, 11:38 AM

Dad-gummit. I am going to have to go see this movie this weekend if I'm going to have any peace. I'm crying half the time just thinking about it (impending Christmas holiday doesn't help, of course). Last night, I kept waking myself up talking in my sleep, composing devastatingly clever responses to the jacka$$ reviewer who called The Lad excrement. Nasty. Tricksey! False!!! BAD reviewer! Bad! Bad! No biscuit! The cats think I've gone completely 'round the bend. I'm inclined to agree.

The problem, of course, is that I'm mobility impaired and simply cannot stand in line for extended periods of time.

Maybe I'll stop by the theater on the way home and see if I can buy an advance ticket for tomorrow. That'll give me Sunday to recover.

Of to the holiday party at work. :::: sigh ::::

Did I mention I ordered one of the remaining Bill the Pony (with Samwise) figures? I *have* gone 'round the bend. But unless they make a Snowmane figure, I'll have all of the horses.

~grumpy

Goldenberry

12-19-2003, 12:44 PM

Just found this at E! Online, Anderson Jones' column this week, in which he discusses Oscar possibilities:

Best Actor: It's all about the men this year. Still, a disturbing trend is emerging as critics' groups announce their winners. The cast of Return of the King are conspicuously absent, and it's starting to get on my nerves. These guys worked for a year and a half in New Zealand on a historic cinematic trilogy, wielding swords, riding horses and walking around with fur-covered feet--and they get nothing? Throughout the trilogy, Elijah Wood, particularly in King, carries the emotional weight of the odyssey and his eyes, as seen through Peter Jackson's lens, have never channeled so much of the actor's soul. I hope the Academy pays tribute.

So someone out there in LaLaLand, who has a voice and an audience, gets it! Hooray for Anderson Jones!

shilohmm

12-19-2003, 01:01 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
OK, I found it. This, ladies, is the opinion of Mr. Gregory Weinkauf of Phoenixnewtimes .com.

trouts Maeglian for quoting the *one* review I didn't want to see again! :mad: :mad: :p

I really need to track down the review that so delighted me the other night - I know it was an Indiana or Illinois paper, but I thought I saw it at Rotten Tomatoes, only I couldn't find it again yesterday before going to see the movie the second time.

originally posted by zkgrumpy
I think it's Hobbit-foot envy, myself.

Well, I totally believe it's *some* form of envy. ;) :p

originally posted by tgshaw
(I mean, I think piracy is a very bad thing and all--but couldn't they have waited just one more year ??)

There are copies of ROTK on the Internet already, but they're quite likely from someone setting up cameras in the theatre and thus not good sources for screen grabs. Hubby was looking into it last light but hadn't checked into the quality of the copies when I headed off to put youngest to bed - and I forgot to ask him about it when I came back down. :o

SPOILER!
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originally posted by BLOSSOM
SHELOB!!! I thought this entire sequence was amazing. Elijah was amazing. His guilt over Sam, his fear, his reaction as Shelob's sting pierced him. Shelob rolling him up in the web. Sam giving her what she deserved - Go Sam! Frodo's face as Sam pulled the web away - that was one dead hobbit.

Yes to all that, and to the scene between Frodo and Gollum tucked in there - that's one of PJ's "Take here, give there" scenes, where we see just how deeply Frodo's pity runs - and that the Ring isn't completely in control even yet. I was afraid first showing that Frodo throws Gollum down the cliff (i.e., intentionally kills), but he doesn't; it just happens as he defends himself.

Did anyone else catch the major blooper in that sequence first time through? If you didn't, I won't point it out any more specifically, but, Argh! Didn't manage to cut my emotional involvement any, though. :)

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End spoiler

Merry Christmas, whiteling and other travelers! I had to visit relatives right after TTT came out, and it drove me *crazy*. :p Not that I'm wishing this on you. :o OTOH, I really wanted to see TTT with my sister and sister-in-law, but it didn't work out. *sigh* Hope you have better luck on that front if that's part of your plan. :)

wood,
I think we all know exactly how you feel, because we feel the same way! No language barrier there. ;)

originally posted by zkgrumpy
The problem, of course, is that I'm mobility impaired and simply cannot stand in line for extended periods of time.

(((grumpy))) My mom can't *sit* for long periods of time, so hasn't seen any of the movies in the theatre, which I think a terrible shame. OTOH, once she saw FOTR, her only comment for some weeks was, "My, that movie was violent." :p But I think she likes them overall.

I haven't wanted to stand in line much this year because I've been feeling crumby, and we've had good luck with getting our tickets ahead of time and then walking in right after the guys who stood in line got settled. There have always been enough stragglers that we were able to get two fairly good seats together at that point. But that may be because we're in South Bend - it's probably worse in the big cities. Which is you. *sigh* Still, I think if you go to a theatre with "stadium seating" where you're sitting won't matter unless you're right up under the screen - and a friend of ours had that seat in out first showing and it didn't slow his enthusiasm any! :)

I hope to get there again for the Sunday matinee - not going to be able to see anything but matinees from this point on; hubby's already groaning about the expense. That's another reason I wish the movies didn't come out at Christmas - we don't like to go into debt for Christmas and it's about the only time hubby fusses if I indulge myself financially!

Sheryl

edit:
Thanks for sharing that, Goldie! It is nice to hear someone who isn't completely Frodo centric notice. :D

Hobmom

12-19-2003, 01:21 PM

I LOVE ROTK and Elijah is SOOO brilliant and SOOO crushingly sad!

I saw it the second time yesterday. Much more able to take more in but I will have to see it at least as many times as I did FOTR, it is so grand an glorious and heartbreaking.

The young lady sitting near us had a whole roll of toilet tissue tucked in the seat beside her and used practically the whole thing to wipe away her Frodo-tears. After it was over we just said .."We really need the toilet paper" and looked knowingly at each other. Her husband who did seem to enjoy the film too just smiled indulgently. I just had several crumpled up damp Kleenex. The toilet tissue is a good idea.

It's great to see that review by Anderson Jones. A top critic trying to wake up the academy. Thank you, Mr. Jones!

Now everyone make sure you go and sign the petition to the Academy. It's got over 400 signatures since last night!!!

Elijah's fans KNOW he deserves this Award and many are leaving wonderful, intelligent comments about Elijah and not just fangirl squeeing. Thanks to everyone who already signed and if you haven't PLEASE SIGN NOW!

Oscar for Elijah Petition Please, please, please sign today! (http://www.petitiononline.com/EliOscar/petition.html)

I'm going to fax Elijah's manager about it so Elijah can know and can keep track of the love and appreciation. Even if he doesn't get the nomination he'll know we wanted it for him.

zkgrumpy

12-19-2003, 05:06 PM

Two hours, 25 min, 30 seconds till I see it but who's counting?!?

I understand now what happened with this whole thing. I talked to a friend yesterday and she reminded me what happened and why it didn't "take".

Two years ago, I was becoming mildly excited about seeing FotR. My friend came over for lunch, then we drove over to Metro and went downtown to the Uptown theater, which is huge screen. Before we went, we had some lunch in my little dining area in front of my big front window. My neighbor across the street must have seen us, because he stood in his doorway exposing himself.

Yeeesh. :::: shudder :::: But it explains why the movie made so little impression on me. I think I was in shock, in a way. I didn't even see TTT in the movies. When I got TTT for my birthday, it took me over two months to get around to watching it. Once I saw LotR and TTT, I was *gone*.

So now I'm going to RotK two days after it opened. I almost never go to movies.

And I've stuffed my purse with tissues.

:::: plotting to sell them for $1 apiece ::::
~grumpy (two hours and 13 minutes)(I'm going to be RICH! RICH, I tell you!)(BWAHAHAHAHAHAAAAA!!!!)

naiad

12-20-2003, 12:13 AM

SPOILERS AHEAD!!

Still trying to get my breath back from last night's viewing of the finale to lotr, the movie. Elijah's performance was magnificent, as was that of the supporting cast. From the opening scene to the receding ship and the credits with Annie Lennox's soulful voice - I just was not expecting this level of intensity. Whatever grumps arose as I watched melted in the wave of effect from the images, the acting, and Shore's music. (I'll forebear any criticism as it's not in the front of my mind at the moment because surely this movie worked inspite of itself and is more than the sum of PJ's intentions.)

What is before my mind is Elijah's Frodo. As someone said above (Pearl?), movie Frodo has now conjoined with the book Frodo of my thought. Amazingly, while EW warned that viewers would come to hate Frodo in part III for his rejection of Sam, it was simply not possible to do so - because Elijah managed to do the impossible - to render compassion out of fear, torment, and the nearly complete subjugation of his charactger's will by an indomitable power. And this role he played is the more remarkable because it's so sharply different from his own character (as he appears in public at least). Despite, the scanty dialog afforded him (or any of the cast), Elijah's performance was profoundly beautiful.

Hadn't expected tears, but they came, despite efforts to hold them back (the doctor who fixed my recently broken nose gave me the alternative of taping my distance glasses to forehead, which did not easily accommodate tears :rolleyes: ). Two of the men I was with also cried.

This post is rather incoherant, but thankfully earlier postings have been more expressive, listing highlights and so on - Shilhomm, Maeglian, Tg ..... :k

Shilhomm, thank you for saying this - there are book readers who actually miss the whole thing about how Frodo and Bilbo's compassion enabled them to get rid of the Ring by sparing Gollum. And I don't doubt there will be movie viewers who don't get it, either, even though the information is there.

Watching ROTK, I realized why PJ had done some stuff in Fellowship that kind of bugged me - namely having them clearly state that taking the Ring to Mordor was Frodo's job and responsibility. PJ uses the elves to get across a lot of the stuff in the books that you understand by being inside Frodo's head - there are people who argue from the book that Sam should have just taken the Ring and done the job without Frodo. Anyone who argues that from the movie is ignoring the clear statement of the prophetic elves that the job is and must be Frodo's.

Hobmom - Thank you for initiating the petition - probably the best gift an audience could give an actor. I was thrilled to sign it.

Stormy - I share your concerns... but, as you say, they blur into the background of the overall impact of the film, which I'm finally convinced was made with heartfelt respect for the original.
Also, Elijah as Bachus at Mardi Gras!!*##!*!

Can't wait til Sunday when I get to see it again!

honeyelf

12-20-2003, 01:17 AM

Hobmom, thank you for putting up that petition! Elijah so deserves an Oscar for his "performance." That word seems so inadequate, when he really allowed himself to be subsumed so wholely by a character.

Couple of random thouhts.

My husband had trouble with Elijah's performance. In particular he couldn't understand one of the moments late into Mordor, when Frodo was swatting at the air in front of him. Oddly enough this moment really resonated with me. Am I alone in having sometimes been so tormented by a thought that I, at least mentally, wanted to "swat" it away? I imagine, given the level of exhaustion Frodo must have been feeling at that point, that I might gesture so. And so that moment felt exquisitley real to me, not "over-acted" at all. I wonder if that was a PJ thing, or Elijah's own embellishment? Not that it matters; either way, as it was brilliant.

Some thoughts, now, on pandemoniumforamerica. I've actually been listening to it quite a lot. It's fascinating. Let me explain myself. I love Viggo's poem, "Babylon;" IMVHO the writing is brilliant. One of those types of poems that strings images together, and between them ideas form, if you know what I mean.

Part of the reason that I listen to it so much is that I work in retail. We have, at our shop, and form of exquisite torture called "musack," which right now means listening to Christmas music; such classics as Barbara Streisand's rendition of "Jingle Bells!" Someone, please,

JUST.

KILL.

ME.

NOW.

And when it's not Christmas music, it's the greatest hits of the eighties. You know, "Rio" "A Girl in Trouble is a temporary thing" ad nauseaum. All of this compounded by being repeated 6 to 8 times per shift!:eek:

So when I get back to my tiny little car, (licensce plate: GAMG33
:D ) it is as a drink of cold water amoungst the fumes of Mordor to hear something so FRESH and ORIGINAL! I think it may just save my sanity some days!

Honey!

Maeglian

12-20-2003, 02:46 AM

Spoiler
*
*
*
About Frodo swatting at the air in front of him, my immediate thought was that this was PJ/EJWs take on Frodo trying to ward off the Eye; - where the book says:"Anxiously Sam had noted how his master's left hand would often be raised as if to ward off a blow, or to screen his shrinking eyes from a dreadful Eye that sought to look in them."

I agree with you, Honeelf - it worked very well. :)

End spoiler

I feel your christmas muzak pain. Listening to "happy" renditions of "last christmas" and jinglebells and white christmas and what not can drive anyone up the wall.

shadowcatshadow

12-20-2003, 03:21 AM

Not Elijah as Bacchas! :mad:

Elijah as Samson or Archangel. :D

BLOSSOM

12-20-2003, 08:48 AM

Thanks so much for setting up that petition for Elijah, Hobmom. It escapes me how our boy can go unrecognized for his astounding portrayal of Frodo.

I've looked at lots of reviews over the last couple of days, but too few even mention Elijah's performance. :confused: I so agree with you, wood. How can they just overlook him when so much praise is (rightly enough, as I said in my last post) heaped upon Sean Astin? These two actors stand out for me throughout the entire trilogy. They captured perfectly Frodo and Sam's friendship, the true affection, devotion, loyalty, love, hope, fear, torment and despair that bind these characters together. I'd say they worked off each other, responded to each other's performance, and I think this brought out the best in both of them.

I still think Elijah had the most difficult task, and in my eyes he delivered the most exquisitely beautiful, nuanced performance I have ever seen.

Goldie - Thanks for sharing Anderson Jones' very positive comments on Elijah with us. It's very satisfying when another man recognizes and acknowledges Elijah's obvious (to all of us here) talent.

ROTK SPOILERS AHEAD

Originally quoted by Maeg:
About Frodo swatting at the air in front of him, my immediate thought was that this was PJ/EJWs take on Frodo trying to ward off the Eye; - where the book says:"Anxiously Sam had noted how his master's left hand would often be raised as if to ward off a blow, or to screen his shrinking eyes from a dreadful Eye that sought to look in them."

I agree with you, Honeyelf - it worked very well.
____________________________________________

Oh, I loved this. That's exactly the book quote that came to my mind as this scene played out on screen, Maeg. Just a few seconds of screen-time, but it was both wonderful and heart-breaking to see Frodo's suffering portrayed like this. Thanks be to PJ and co for including this book-canon moment.

Originally quoted by naiad:
What is before my mind is Elijah's Frodo. As someone said above (Pearl?), movie Frodo has now conjoined with the book Frodo of my thought. Amazingly, while EW warned that viewers would come to hate Frodo in part III for his rejection of Sam, it was simply not possible to do so - because Elijah managed to do the impossible - to render compassion out of fear, torment, and the nearly complete subjugation of his character's will by an indomitable power.
_____________________________________________

Exactly my feelings, naiad. Beautifully put.
Hope the nose (ouch!) is healing well.:)

Two days since I saw ROTK, and still images of Frodo are with me. Can't get him out of my head! (Isn't that the title of a song?)

END OF ROTK SPOILERS

Before I go I'd like to extend a belated thank you to Elve at frodoandsam.net for the wonderful video clips she (and others) provide for us, especially Elijah's recent SNL appearance. I thought it would be months before I'd be able to see that - we're way behind here in the UK. Many thanks again Elve.:)

Honeyelf - Good to know you like Viggo's CD so much.

Flourish

12-20-2003, 09:43 AM

ROTK spoilers

I too thought of the book as soon as I saw Frodo trying to ward off the Eye--that was so wonderfully done, and poor Sam, behind him, uncomprehending. (Went to my second viewing last night.)

And a little later in that scene, when the Eye wheels toward them and Sam yells, "Get down, Mr. Frodo!"--did anyone ever fall to the ground with such incredible grace? In slo-mo, even, it looked balletic, as if he were weightless.

Shilohmm, is the blooper in the Shelob-and-Gollum sequence a continuity gaffe with the dirt on his face? Suddenly his face was surprisingly clean there.....

And there's another little slip-up in the tower scene, same idea. Did anyone spot that?

zkgrumpy

12-20-2003, 11:04 AM

Well, I saw it. Nice crowd. Quiet - not many beepers or phones going off, thank <deity>. Laughter in appropriate places. Some muted cheers. Spontaneous, slightly self-conscious applause at the end. I'm actually glad I've read spoilers and re-read as much of the book as I have - it helped to make the ending more bearable.

SPOILERS!!

Things that stand out:

- Frodo falling apart, staggering, waving his hand as if batting something away in Mordor. I can well believe it. The wound from Weathertop wasn't really healed and he had a horrendous dose of poison from Shelob, that I'm sure he wasn't recovered from. It's not hard to believe that between illness and dehydration and hunger, he'd be staggering. They had the line "I'm naked in the dark - there's nothing between me and the Wheel of Fire". That was well done.
- The water bottle scene. I could feel the thirst. Oh - wait - that's because I didn't drink anything after 7 pm so I wouldn't have to go out to pee ;) No - that was well done. A person gets desperate and absolutely wild when he's very thirsty and that's how Frodo acted.
- I didn't have any trouble with the Shire stuff on the rock after the Ring was gone. It made sense, because while they were crawling up Mt. Doom, Frodo couldn't remember the Shire. That's consistent with the book - Sam reminded Frodo of the rabbit at Ithilien, and Frodo said he knew that it had happened but couldn't remember it. If it wasn't exact lines, the spirit was there. It would make sense that one of the effects of the burden of the Ring being lifted was that he could remember. They were also dying, and that's a good time for remembering as well as regrets. I believed Sam's tears. He'd held up for so long and been Frodo's strength - now the task was done, his strength was no longer needed, he had time for memory and regret, and given more time, I think he would have had a rip-roaring nervous breakdown.
- The eagles. Beautiful.
- That we got back inside of Frodo's head when they got back to the Shire. The whole last part of the book is told from Sam's viewpoint. It emphasized how far away Frodo went while he was carrying the ring - we didn't know him anymore.
- I knew that Frodo was in trouble in the Shire even if I hadn't read the book. Bag End was clean. ;)
- Pippen. Pippen Pippen Pippen. Pippen and the Palantir. Pippen pulling Farimar off the pyre. Pippen singing. Utterly beautiful. Personally, I think only a Scot could sing a lament like that. Oy, Billy is great.
- Samwise the Brave - Wonderful. No holding back. Sean went all-out.
- Shelob and spiderwebs: Ick. Ick ick ick. In the book, when Sam was holding Frodo, Frodo's face turned a livid green. Frodo poisoned and wrapped in spiderwebs with the purple under his eyes was *not* a pretty sight. I liked that Frodo's trying to get away was more drawn out than in the book. It was terrifying watching him trying to get away from that thing. His expression was the same as when the cave troll skewered him in Moria. It wasn't pretty. The addition of drool emphasized that he was poisoned.
- "Don't go where I can't follow" -- WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!
- The flow of the movie: I didn't have a problem with the Deagol/Smeagol scene - of course, I never saw Deliverance. ;) I didn't have a problem with their stupidity - Gollum started out a creep and went downhill from there. Frodo started from a much higher plane. I'm glad they showed Smeagol's transformation into Gollum - it set up the scenario for why Frodo went downhill so badly.
- The bruises on Frodo's neck from the weight of the Ring. Oy. Heartbreaking.
- Merry! Brave liittle Merry! :::: sniffle ::: Merry and the Witch King! Merry and Pippen role reversal when Pippen found Merry.
- EOWYN ROCKS!!!!!
- I didn't have a problem with the Lembas/sending Sam away scene. Sam was at the end of his rope too but couldn't show it (I have an older sister who's often ill and I know the feeling well). Frodo was not only succumbing to the Ring, which twisted his perception of things, but he had Gollum whispering in his ear. When what Gollum said apparently came true when Sam offered to carry the ring, he lost Sam. Temporarily. I can believe that Sam was so hurt and angry that he lost it and left for a little while. Even so, it wouldn't have done any good for him to stick around under the circumstances. But even if he hadn't found the Lembas, he wouldn't have gone far. It was a departure from the book but it worked.
- Frodo in the tower: The book doesn't ring true to me how Sam found Frodo - the singing part, anyway. Movie Sam knew they were taking Frodo to the tower; as long as he was going up, he was going to find him. Nekkid Frodo (despite gratuitous belly-button shot) was more heartbreaking than anything: Frodo realizing that he'd lost the ring, lost Sam, lost everything. It also showed how battered he was. The stab wound and sting wound were both very ugly. His face was clean, btw, because Shelob's spit was not only sticky but wet, and inadvertently washed Frodo's face. Ick. Ick ick ick.
- Sam and the Ring: Book Sam put the ring on to escape the Orcs (though why didn't the Nazgul feel the Ring when he did?) His wearing the ring set up his reluctance to give it back, and Book Sam *did* feel reluctance. But Book Frodo was a lot less in control than Movie Frodo - first he praised Sam, then called him a thief. Frodo's explaining about the task being appointed to him was too controlled. Book Frodo was slightly crazed at that point when he realized that Sam had taken the ring.
- Sting, glowing blue, coming through the chest of the tower orc.
- Sam carrying Frodo - WAAAAAAAAAAHHHH!
- Dangling from the edge of the Crack of Doom: Didn't happen. I shall block that from my memory. Also, I shall mentally put in Gollum's last wail of "Precioussssss!".
- Running from the collapsing catwalk in the same: Also didn't happen. Sam carried Frodo out.
- Frodo's bitten finger: Lots of blood, for about the first time in all three movies. Well done. It also didn't look nice and neat in the scene when he was writing the book. It was the kind of amputation that would continue to ache.
- Sam's and Frodo's expressions as they looked at each other when Sam stood in the doorway after Frodo woke up. Perfect understanding, perfect love, perfect tenderness. :::: sniffle ::::
- Gray Havens: PJ lightened it by having that backward glance and smile, with the light back in Frodo's eyes and color in his face for the first time since Weathertop. OK. I'm going to go and bawl now.

I expected to be emotionally creamed by the movie. I wasn't. I felt almost euphoric afterwards - it was just so danged satisfying. I woke up this morning, the Ring was destroyed, Frodo was safe and happy, Samwise was home, and the sun was shining.

I am a happy woman. I will go see it again. Soon. But I still have to feed the cats.

~morehappythangrumpytoday

Flourish

12-20-2003, 12:05 PM

Lovely summary, zkgrumpy.:D

ROTK spoilers

Just to clarify about the potential gaffe--after he escapes the web and Gollum attacks him, Frodo's face is filthy. When he releases Gollum (homage to his show of mercy elsewhere in the book?) and rises up to say, "I must destroy it, Smeagol, for both our sakes," his face is only slightly smudged.;)

And in the Tower, when first we see him, he still has cobweb around his face. Cut away to Sam climbing up to him, come back to Frodo awake and struggling, and not a trace of web to be seen.:confused:

shilohmm

12-20-2003, 01:38 PM

Hope your nose is doing better, naiad!

Originally posted by Flourish
Shilohmm, is the blooper in the Shelob-and-Gollum sequence a continuity gaffe with the dirt on his face? Suddenly his face was surprisingly clean there.....

It's a continuity error, but not that one. I kind of shrug off some of the dirt displacement as inevitable. FLEE this paragraph, if you don't want to know! When Sam's holding Frodo and Frodo's "dead", Frodo's eyes are open in the closeups and closed in the long shots. Right up there with the hand on the shoulder, then gone, in Boromir's death scene - hey, maybe this is another one of PJ's parallelled scenes! :D

Grumpy, thanks for the write up! Had to chuckle at some of your, "That didn't happen" moments - maybe I can get my eldest to adapt that policy with the bit she hated. ;)

I think Frodo brushes off the cobweb in the tower - who wouldn't? :D

Sheryl

Hobmom

12-20-2003, 02:02 PM

Oh my, the petition server seems to be down!

Last night there were close to 900 signatures on it already!( And I only signed it once...I swear! I want him to get an honest count.) And I told Elijah's management and publicists about it, too, so I hope he knows we are doing this for him.

But now the server for the whole petition site seems down! Maybe it's only in my area but if anyone else is having trouble getting into it let me know and I'll try and reach the site's owner about it.

Let's hope it was all the people signing Elijah's petition that blew out their circuits or whatever.

Spoilers.......................

Oh, Elijah swatting at the air in Mordor was one of the points where I definitely got weepy. And then his voice when he speaks of not remembering the taste of food or the sound of water....naked in the dark...wheel of fire. That just about breaks me!

He was SO good in these scenes..in all his scenes.

I am still so overwhelmed by his performance and the whole movie. I think it is going to be a long, long time before I can really take it all in.

I can't analyze the movie critically, looking for flaws and all that, yet. It is just so powerful that the flaws don't even touch me yet, if they are really there. Maybe this film really is the work of genius I think it is. Because I can't think of any other movie incuding the first two that leave me feeling so overwhelmed and moved. And it's mainly Elijah as the more than perfect Frodo that does this to me.

I have noticed..moving on.... That people who haven't read the books seem to be the ones that don't totally get what Frodo is going through in Mordor in the movie. My niece who hasn't read the whole book (but loves the films) said Elijah's performance made her too exhausted. Now I think that's high praise, actually because that means he makes the audience FEEL what he is feeling. But she as a non-book-reader can't see that that is what is happening and misinterprets her reaction. Elijah does make you feel his utter, and complete exhaustion and agony! And how many actors can convey that so powerfully? I think for some it is so emotional and overwhelming that they tend to respond by trying to look away, like at the scene of some great tragedy. Maybe for some it is just too hard to bear so they downplay it.

But this is where Elijah's brilliance is. He can crush an audience with a look or a barely audible word or trying to brush away the horrors only his eyes can see with hands nearly too weakened to move.

Bridget Chubb

12-20-2003, 02:51 PM

Hey guys,

Please remember to keep marking spoilers - not everyone has seen the movie yet.:) Thanks!

Flourish

12-20-2003, 03:21 PM

Sorry, Bridget! Thanks for fixing.

Maeglian

12-20-2003, 03:43 PM

I expected to be emotionally creamed by the movie. I wasn't. I felt almost euphoric afterwards - it was just so danged satisfying. That sums up exactly how I felt, too! This huge contentment that it was all so right, - so good, even exceeding my hopeful expectations.

Spoilers in the rest of the post
*
*
*
*

I thought Frodo falling over the edge and dangling over the lava worked very well - the expression on his face there, so obviously thinking about letting go, and the mirroring of Frodo's saving sam in FotR. :)

But then, I've been certain for a long time that this would happen.... to the point where I think I'd have been more surprised if it didn't happen! :D I remember one time going on about how Mark's predicament at the end of "The Good Son" surely would end up as another Froshadowing. :rolleyes:

And at some point, we should mention the angst factor.... ?

That croaky voice of Frodo's in the scene very early on when Sam is pondering the lembas rationing, nearly not Frodo's voice anymore......that set off angst vibes right away. The terrible pain and flashback terror he experiences as the army passes out of Minas Morgul.... Frodo's dark and slightly "not all here" eyes as he climbes the stairs and interacts with Gollum and Sam in total exhaustion... the effort it takes for him, quarreling with Sam after the lembas disappearance, when he falls back, totally spent... and each and every scene after the two of them leave CU till Frodo wakes up in Minas Tirith. Especially the "searching Eye lighthouse" scene - Frodo's ballet dancer's fall: Afterwards he lies completely still as if dead or fainted. I guess this is the film's version of how a glance from the Eye when the hobbits are climbing the slopes of Mt. Doom, makes Frodo fall "as one stricken mortally".

There's so much there that it's really hard to process. Fantastic acting, all the way. I'm in awe of Elijah's acting. I should probably stop repeating that in every post I write. :o :rolleyes:

In fact, the only single thing I didn't like about all of this was Frodo's "There won't be any water for the return journey" line. It was plain wrong in the circumstances. But I've been going on about that in the spoiler thread so won't repeat myself.

Uhm..... A couple of other comments:

I *did* notice that the eyes were closed in the long shot "Choices" scenes - but I'll forgive them that, as long as they went for the open eyes in the close-ups. That contributed to an extremely chilling effect!

And I was thinking back to that interview with Elijah way back when, where he said that in the 3rd movie, Frodo would be "acting so strangely" and would be treating Sam in such a way that people wouldnt be able to "go there" with Frodo anymore, that the audience would switch their "allegiance" to Sam. Oh well, for once I disagree completely with EJW. Not about Sam/Sean, who is wonderful - but Elijah's acting makes it entirely possible to follow Frodo, all the way. And what a way!!!

zkgrumpy

12-20-2003, 04:43 PM

A word about the petition: Nice idea, but I doubt if it will do any good. In fact, it may do more harm than good. There seem to be two schools of thought in La-La land: those who have no use for the opinion or regard of the fans, and consider any critique of anything they do as an affront, and those (HL makers and Peter Jackson & co among them) who do. The Academy is a bunch of snobs, and is more likely to associate interference by the Great Unwashed Public (us) negatively to the movie. JMGLO, of course. :)

Originally posted by Flourish
Lovely summary, zkgrumpy.:D

:::: bowing :::: Thank you, m'dear!! I haven't had so much fun since the bleeding roses in S6 of Highlander. ;)

ROTK spoilers

BTW, reading this afternoon, I came on a description of Frodo, when he tried to go across the bridge, I think - he was stumbling, and his head was lolling back and forth (perhaps the inspiration behind the bobble-head dolls? ;) ). They (writers, director, Elijah) got it dead right.

Just to clarify about the potential gaffe--after he escapes the web and Gollum attacks him, Frodo's face is filthy. When he releases Gollum (homage to his show of mercy elsewhere in the book?) and rises up to say, "I must destroy it, Smeagol, for both our sakes," his face is only slightly smudged.;)

::: turning somersaults to get around this one :p ::::

The book makes numerous references to various characters wiping mud, sweat, and tears away. We just didn't see him do it.

:::: ending up with legs wrapped around neck sitting on hands ::::

;) ;) ;)

And in the Tower, when first we see him, he still has cobweb around his face. Cut away to Sam climbing up to him, come back to Frodo awake and struggling, and not a trace of web to be seen.:confused:

:::: further twisting to get out of this one :::: ;D

He was thrashing. The cobweb was sticky. It stuck to the floor and pulled off his head. He was sweating by that time, so that's how it happened. :p

I like how PJ kept the humor in and kept it from being slapstick and forced. The book has orcs arguing about the massive elf-type guy who stabbed Shelob and cut the cords around Frodo. The movie had Sam's enormous shadow coming up the stairs and the orcs cowering in fear, then seeing little Sam. Hysterical.

There are other slight continuity errors. In the Weathertop scene, after Frodo was stabbed and pulled the ring off, in the long shots, he was lying as if he were limp, with his face turned toward the rock. In the closeups, he was looking up and forward toward Sam, and every muscle was tensed and struggling against the pain. Chilling shot, btw.

The Lads talked about Viggo in the FotR commentary, that Viggo would end a scene in one take, for example, with his hand on his sword. Weeks later, in the next shot - possibly a change from long shot to closeup in the studio, he'd start from exactly the same position as he'd left off in that scene. I doubt if everyone, including the continuity ppl, has this down as well as Viggo.

~grumpy (OK. Somebody wanna tell me how to get my legs unstuck from around my neck?!? ;D)

Prim

12-20-2003, 11:16 PM

EEEEKKK!!!!

I have read nothing of this thread these last few days. Nothing. Nothing. Well...ok a few small snippets... but I'm pretty much a spoiler free zone.

Just breezing through to wish everyone a wonderful Christmas, see you in the New Year some time.

I'm waiting to see the movie (hopefully with Viola who is back home for a while) 'til the theatres are not quite so packed out with air-sucking, space-absorbing humanity. Yes, I'm mildly claustrophobic and I don't want any anxiety attacks to affect my first viewing.:p Though Viola may well have something to say about that.
Its certainly been a big hit here in Northland, NZ. Its probably parochial but its nice anyway to see the troops support a partly local effort.

I'm so pleased the overall impression of the Faculty has been good. Cool. I'll exit now before my iron will weakens and I read stuff I shouldn't. :)

ps its good to see new faces here. Well, not so new really but I been absent for a bit. I have been reading you all, a couple of times a week, but just have little to add.
(small diversion :Its interesting how personalities develop quite distinctly and rapidly over the web. You are an interesting bunch. What a shame I live on the erm... bottom ( ;) ) of the planet. It would be nice to meet.)

Special Seasons greetings to the Ancient Ones :p of Imladris days. For some reason I've been wandering down memory lane. Possibly because this is the last film? Pity I didn't think to save the Imlady thread. Oh well. What's gone is gone.

Have wonderful holidays to those in Christian heritage nations. And joy to everyone else. :k

Prim

stormyday

12-21-2003, 12:28 AM

Ah yes, Prim, the Non-Swoony days! :D

How the mighty have fallen! I didn't say that; who said that? Maeg?? :p

Interesting you bring that up, Prim. I noticed earlier that a poster that I know by 2 different user names posted. Despite the fact that I'd forgotten what her *other* name was, I was able to pick her out immediately by the tone of her post!

Fascinating when you consider how few cues there are on the Web--no visual or auditory cues, just the way we put words together!:cool:

I guess this is rather OT....Um..Elijah is bloody marvellous!!:k :D

ainon

12-21-2003, 03:43 AM

Well, I survived my LOTR marathon - all 11 hours of it, with only 20 minute breaks between movies. :o I am pleased to report that I had a terrific time. My back didn't complain at all - but the fact that I kept pulling my feet up and sitting cross-legged on my seat probably helped things. I even got a "I survived the Lord of the Rings Marathon" certificate. :)

I'd been holding out on TTT EE even though I already have my DVD; I wanted to see it on the big screen for the first time. It was a real delight to see 'The Two Towers' title juxtaposed on a totally different scene up on screen and to realise that 'hey, it's the rope scene!' I wasn't expecting such sweetness and lightness between Frodo and Sam right at the top of the movie, and that pleasant feeling I got lasted through the rest of the movie as I recognised different scenes being introduced in different ways and the new scenes slipping between old scenes. I loved every single extended Frodo & Sam bit (not that that's a surprise) and I loved every restored Merry & Pippin scene. Was very excited when the Boromir & Faramir flashback started - I'd known all along that that was where a flashback had to be. ;)

I went with a friend who's not read the book and who's only casually interested in the movies. She was game for the marathon though because it's not something anyone would be remotely crazy enough to do for any other movie anytime soon. She's a very active viewer compared to me - she practically squeals and laughs out loud and speaks up. I prefer quiet viewing and whispered remarks, myself, but have to say that her reactions made for a rather interesting way to gauge her newbieness experience with the movies. :D

RotK Spoilers
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In RotK, as Frodo was collapsing on the mountain slope, my friend started this little litany, urging him on: "Get up, Frodo, get up, they (Aragorn & co at the Black Gate) are running out of time, get up!" and it occurred to me that in most movies, Frodo would have managed to reach into some deep well of reserves somewhere and rise up strong again to save the day. I'm pretty sure my friend never imagined that Sam would have to pick Frodo up and carry him up the rest of the slope. Considering how we're so pre-conditioned, as movie viewers, to expect certain developments in movie characterdom, that the movie holds on so firmly to Tolkien's important details made me feel really warm and happy inside.

Originally posted by Maeglian
And at some point, we should mention the angst factor.... ?

Oh yes, Maeg. We so definitely should. ;)

And ah, you've got a beautiful compilation started off already. :D

Especially the "searching Eye lighthouse" scene - Frodo's ballet dancer's fall: Afterwards he lies completely still as if dead or fainted. I guess this is the film's version of how a glance from the Eye when the hobbits are climbing the slopes of Mt. Doom, makes Frodo fall "as one stricken mortally".

Yup to this and to everything you've listed, especially the 'swatting the air' bit. Even the changed and shifted scenes - could always tell which part of the book is being represented.

Actually it seems to me that in RotK we get the clearest idea of what it was like to transfer the words on paper to images on screen.

In fact, the only single thing I didn't like about all of this was Frodo's "There won't be any water for the return journey" line. It was plain wrong in the circumstances. But I've been going on about that in the spoiler thread so won't repeat myself.

I kinda liked that because I saw it as Frodo trying, for Sam's sake, to maintain the illusion that they were going to survive the quest ... and then his realising that he doesn't need to do so anymore - Sam has already pretty much accepted the whole hopelessness of the situation. I thought it was a nice follow-up to be the earlier scene in the movie where Sam tells Frodo that he's rationing food for the return journey but Frodo hasn't the heart to say anything.

And I was thinking back to that interview with Elijah way back when, where he said that in the 3rd movie, Frodo would be "acting so strangely" and would be treating Sam in such a way that people wouldnt be able to "go there" with Frodo anymore, that the audience would switch their "allegiance" to Sam.

Well, I remember the lengthy right/wrong debates about what Elijah said or meant. :D Coincidentally I was thinking of that interview too, but only because I was trying to pinpoint which scene it was that they were filming in that tennis court while they were all waiting for the flood waters to clear. It's the "Frodo sending Sam away" scene, isn't it? THey wouldn't have even needed Gollum during filming; it really was between only Elijah and Sean. Watching that scene, knowing that that scene was filmed at the tail end of 1999, when Frodo was still, in chronological filming sense, the innocent hobbit of FotR ... WOW.

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/END SPOILERS

That was only my second viewing. I definitely need more. I'm gonna have to start coming up with very exotic excuses soon to warrant my need to keep leaving work just in time for occasional accidental 3hour+ movie viewing sessions.

Hobmom, thanks for setting up the petition! :k

Small little mention for Frodo in one of the local reviews:

RotK review (Malaysian newspaper)] (http://www.nst.com.my/Current_News/NST/Thursday/Features/20031218082143/Article/)
Gollum's transformation from hobbit to cursed cave-dweller also makes us fear increasingly for Frodo's soul. Even if he survives the treacherous journey to Mount Doom, the burden of carrying the One Ring has clearly taken its toll on him.

While he was pink-cheeked and hopeful in The Fellowship of the Ring, he is now exhausted and visibly haunted, his baby blue eyes resembling two chips of dull ice. Only the profoundly loyal Sam seems to stand between Frodo's success or failure, salvation or damnation.

Prim - ENJOY THE MOVIE!!

Flourish

12-21-2003, 08:37 AM

zkgrumpy, bless you for your generous efforts to reason those gaffes away! They are banished!:k

Ainon! Twenty minutes between films??:eek: Wow, I'm beginning to think the 2 or 2 1/2 hours we're to be allotted at our screening in January will be a luxury!

tgshaw

12-21-2003, 09:01 AM

...Popping in to say I'm still around, but since everything I've had to say lately, Elijah-related or otherwise, is an RotK spoiler, I've been posting mostly in the Trilogy forum... Hope anyone who's not avoiding spoilers is checking in over there--lots of good things going on :) .

Mariole

12-21-2003, 02:17 PM

Just popping in to say that I'm enjoying everyone's comments. I'm posting irregularly as I must finish up a couple of books before leaving Tuesday for an 11-day vacation.

A couple of notes before I go:

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Spoilers:

Maeglian, I love your Good Son Froshadowing! That will have to be capped and compared. I too was expecting someone to be dangling at some point, but I had envisioned several ways this might go, including Frodo (over the cliff, and hanging onto Sam) hanging onto Gollum, and then Frodo has to decide to let Gollum go, because that's the only way to destroy the Ring, and Gollum will never release it. Anyway, loved loved loved Elijah's expression looking up at Samwise there. I have seen the movie 4 times now *blush* especially to see Sculpted!Lij in Mount Doom. Wow.

Ainon, my take on the water comment was the same as yours. I think it's a weakness in the screenplay that so many of these comments are written so ambiguously, and viewers have to work for an answer. I think the actors do a marvelous job of conveying what's behind the words.

Maeglian

12-21-2003, 03:28 PM

Prim! So good to see you again! Have a wonderful Christmas, and a great first RotK wieving to you and Viola. :)

I was trying to pinpoint which scene it was that they were filming in that tennis court while they were all waiting for the flood waters to clear. It's the "Frodo sending Sam away" scene, isn't it? Yes, it must be. Even more impressive is the fact that they only filmed half the scene while waiting for the floods to abate (I think it was the part where you see Sam and his reactions). And then, much later on, they filmed the Frodo side of it - at that point (I think I recall one of them explaining in an interview) they asked PJ to be allowed to film the squash court part again, - but he said it was good as already filmed. And he was right!

I didn't say that; who said that? Maeg?? :p Hmmm? No idea what.... oh. :o I tend to forget that my all-out swooning came somewhat delayed. But once it started...... :D

Anyway, yes, it *is* rather strange how much you can learn about someone just from their (anonymous) post writing, - at the beginning when I first registered that scared me..... The "good old days" ,- I think all of us who's been hanging around for .... 2 years now! :eek: have learned a thing or two along the way. :) And made some good friends!

Good Son Froshadowing! That will have to be capped and compared. If only it could be done! I wish it wasn't so darn long till legal caps become available - RotK is simply a cap-orama beyond compare - I'd love to see it capped. Sigh. Patience. That's the key.

Yes, about the water line...it still doesn't work very well for me, but of course it does allow Sam to voice aloud his take on their situation - and I suppose that was the main point of the scene. And it *is* the scene that yielded my favourite poster, so who am I to complain in the least? :o

I've seen the film 3 times now, and shall have to wait till some time after Christmas before I go back. Too many job and family obligations and festivities, and the cinemas here are closed over Christmas anyway. I'm looking all the more forward to next time I can go see it!

ainon

12-21-2003, 06:51 PM

Originally posted by Flourish
Ainon! Twenty minutes between films??:eek: Wow, I'm beginning to think the 2 or 2 1/2 hours we're to be allotted at our screening in January will be a luxury!

Oh! What I would have given for 2 1/2 hour breaks! :o But no, actually I didn't mind it so much. The short breaks worked to make the whole trilogy almost seamless and it really is amazing to watch all three in one go and realise how everything works as ONE story.

That said, I still would have given anything for at least a 2 hour break! :p

So many folks leaving for vacation! Merry Christmas wishes and a Happy New Year to all who're going to be away from these boards for a while. :)

A couple of links:

Another Inane Q&A but hey it's Elijah so it's still mildly amusing (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/orig/11187_orig.jpg)

Article by a woman who is missing out ... I guess we can be magnamous and spare some pity for her foolishness (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/12/21/movies/21JAME.html?ex=1072587600&en=a15b8618fcfbc753&ei=5062&partner=GOOGLE)

Mariole

12-21-2003, 07:49 PM

Well, here's a happier article than what ainon just posted. It's from the German magazine Focus :

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1072042936

I think German interviewers ask more interesting questions. Here's a bit about acting:

F: You are one of the child actors who has made it to adult age without having had a breakdown, going to prison or sue his mother. Are you the nice American Boy from Next Door?

E: it seems so. I am just me. I was just lucky to get to where I am. I do feel that it's a blessing.

F: But it is very difficult to imagine that it's possible to enact such a long sequence of this hard, depressing path of suffering to Mount Doom without having made the experience of depression, horrors or other sorts of human disasters?

E: Well, nonetheless I can't say that I've had these experiences. I don't think that you have to experience all that you are portraying.

naiad

12-21-2003, 10:15 PM

Just need to quote Elijah while recovering from second viewing of ROTK and catch up on the comments here:The heart of the story beats for nature, environment and peace. - EW
Thanks Mariole, for the link to the German interview which surely showed EW at his best. And to Ainon too for the Scoop link. :k:

That young man's ability to answer so politely and intelligently a barrage of tough, personal questions for the public eye, totally amazes me.

Thanks Blossom, Sheryl - yes, it's better.

Cheers and safe travels to those departing for a while*

zkgrumpy

12-22-2003, 12:46 AM

Originally posted by Mariole
Well, here's a happier article than what ainon just posted. It's from the German magazine Focus :

http://www.theonering.net/perl/newsview/8/1072042936

I think German interviewers ask more interesting questions. Here's a bit about acting:

F: But it is very difficult to imagine that it's possible to enact such a long sequence of this hard, depressing path of suffering to Mount Doom without having made the experience of depression, horrors or other sorts of human disasters?

E: Well, nonetheless I can't say that I've had these experiences. I don't think that you have to experience all that you are portraying.

I'm still composing responses in my head to the jacka$$ reviewer who called The Lad a turd. Nasty. Tricksey! False!

I remember - um - don't remember what it was - possibly a Sir Laurence Olivier bio - someone was talking about Dustin Hoffman (I think) and Sir L. in - um - Marathon man? Hoffman was running around getting all sweaty and exhausted to make the character realistic; wearing himself and everyone else out. Sir L. asked him: "Can you not just *act*?"

Elijah had the best blueprint: a very big book that can reduce me to a sniffling puddle of goo in the last pages. Reading some scenes, you can almost see into Tolkien's soul. He also had a very good boss - someone who probably also turns into a puddle of goo when he reads certain parts of the book, and also is blessed with a great deal of imagination.

The rest, I suspect, is very good imagination on Elijah's part, along with 15 years or so of acting experience. It's possible that he watches people with those enormous baby blues and takes in people's actions, emotions, expressions, and stores them away for future use. If he's been doing it all his life, he may not even realize that he's doing it; it's just so much a part of him.

It would be interesting to know how he processes the stuff. I'm not sure I'd ever want him to break it down and analyze it (I've been doing that for *years* - I can even tell you exactly how I read - how I put the visual pictures together in my mind)(Yeah, I'm weird - so?!? ;) ) If he looks too hard at it, it may ruin it, and it really is magical.

The one line that I keep putting in my imaginary response to that dork of a reviewer is something about that if the eyes are windows to the soul, then Elijah Wood has given us picture windows into Frodo's.

BTW, the more I watch TTT, The more I can see a kind of perversion of Frodo's big blue eyes and the shape of his face in Gollum. It's downright chilling sometimes.

~grumpy (doesn't *everyone* analyze the path used to go through a grocery store and the technique necessary to get a short-term memory into long-term memory? :eek: )

shadowcatshadow

12-22-2003, 12:59 AM

What's not to love about a guy who says he doesn't want to marry a Supermodel? Is this an example of a guy that was raised right?

Eagles' Eyrie

12-22-2003, 03:32 AM

Thanks for the welcome back everybody. It's lovely to know that I wasn't forgotten. ((((( Faculty )))))

SPOILER

Did anyone else catch the major blooper in that sequence first time through? If you didn't, I won't point it out any more specifically, but, Argh! Didn't manage to cut my emotional involvement any, though.

There is another blooper in that scene. Quit a big one actually. I didn't notice it at the time, but remembered it when I was watching Fellowship at the weekend .....

Surely Shelob wouldn't have been able to pierce Frodo through his mithril shirt?? In the books (IIRC) he was stabbed in the back of the neck so this wasn't an issue.

It still, by no means, spoils the movie for me. I love this. I love Frodo, I love Sam. I love Peter Jackson!!!

END SPOILERS

Edit: I just noticed that this was already mentioned in the Lapses in Logic thread. But honest - I did notice it myself before I read that :)

ainon

12-22-2003, 05:57 AM

Quick post from me. MAJOR SPOILER LINK:

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/The_Grey_Havens.JPG

Yes, tg. It is what you think it is. :k

I didn't cry much in the cinema; too self-conscious maybe on account of being alone the first time, and then being with a friend the second time. But my God ... I was weeping and sobbing and just about shaking as I kept on clicking on 'capture' ....

(((((Faculty))))))

Eagles' Eyrie

12-22-2003, 06:06 AM

Oh man!! I cried from the moment we first see Minas Tirith right to the end and all the way home. Couldn't stop.

I have to admit that part of it is a sadness that the whole thing is over now.

Mariole

12-22-2003, 07:53 AM

I was weeping and sobbing and just about shaking as I kept on clicking on 'capture' ....
Ooh, Ainon, we are interested in how you are capturing these, yes precious, we are! (BTW for wide-screen captures you may need to correct for vertical skew -- set it to 85% and it will "de-stretch" the picture. I've posted one of these in the Harem, but you might want to do it for others, in between tears. :))

from Eagles' Eyrie
I have to admit that part of it is a sadness that the whole thing is over now.
That's only because we're used to Tolkien ending the story here. I remember my first reaction when I "finished" Return of the King -- not sadness, but outrage! Here were all these pages left over in the book, but it wasn't more story (which I would have happily wallowed in forever), it was stupid appendices! Waaahhhh! My only solution was to go through the books and read them backwards (one scene or section at a time), and then start over from the beginning. (I took me forever to find that wonderful Aragorn/Arwen story buried back there.) I'm still reveling in this latest film, but part of me knows that it's over. I can't imagine who could write a competent continuation of Tolkien's work. The Return of Frodo? Gak!

Grumpy, I'd also heard the Dustin Hoffman/Laurence Olivier story. I'd heard that Hoffman stayed up all weekend, running, to wear himself out for the infamous dentist scene. When he arrived on set looking like death warmed over, Sir L, astounded by what he had done, said, "Why do you think they call it acting?"

I do believe that Elijah's a natural talent. PJ said he had to work with him to get him into the darker emotions, but clearly Elijah can go there. His performance breaks my heart, in the best possible way!

tgshaw

12-22-2003, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
...It's possible that he watches people with those enormous baby blues and takes in people's actions, emotions, expressions, and stores them away for future use. If he's been doing it all his life, he may not even realize that he's doing it; it's just so much a part of him...
Ah, yes, the very essence of the microexpression theory of EJW acting!! :p Can't remember if most of that discussion went on here or back at Imladris, in which case it's probably gone forever :( .

Don't have time to write much now, but Elijah has said a number of things that seem to indicate this is exactly what he does--and that he thinks it's normal, so probably is a natural gift (more evidence of that is he already seemed to be using a bit of it when he was eight years old--but IMHO he's honed it since then). That is, he can understand other people's emotions to an unusual degree just by observing them.

The microexpression idea is from a researcher at UCSF, who's been working on a way to use it for better lie detection. His theory (which he has quite a bit of experimental evidence for) is that there's a small segment of the population who's able to understand and translate "microexpressions" (those tiny changes in expression that people are unable to consciously control--including the best of liars), even though they're not aware of what they're doing, so it seems like "intuition."

I totally believe Elijah does this, and that he ends up translating it into his acting--a lot of that probably subconscious, too. The "theory" as applied to EJW continues that, because he can pick up these microexpressions in other people, he's also able to use them in his acting, giving us "How does he do that?" moments of facial expression changes that should not be able to be consciously controlled, giving his acting its supremely natural appearance. When he understands the character's emotions, he can give us the expression the character would actually have in that situation (including those minute subconscious pieces)--not an actor's conscious interpretation of it. And from the things he's talked about, it does seem true that these don't have to be emotions he's actually experienced himself.

Okay, speaking of which :) -- the link below refers to a question that's been discussed in the RotK spoilers thread, so contains, yes, RotK Spoilers! It involves a couple of scenes in the movie that some people are trying to sort out the meanings of, mostly through trying to read Frolijah's expressions. Hopefully, those who are interested in the discussion can recognize it from the page's title in the link below. I only have caps for the first scene involved, but here's the link to the page at ye olde crebain site (not my main website, so you won't get there by clicking on the www at the bottom of my post):

"Enough for What? (http://home.earthlink.net/~screencaps/id23.html)

[ainon--since you're clicking on "capture" I assume you have something to capture things from :p ? I've found a site that has some screencaps posted, but certainly not a full "bird". Would you happen to have anything useful for the second scene involved in the question?]

ainon

12-22-2003, 10:01 AM

Thank you, Mariole. :) Actually the problem is my source itself which has inadvertently become a 'fullscreen' version - very upsetting. But I will try what you suggest for my next attempts. ;)

Sorry for the babbling post just now. :p I wanted to cap some highlights from the ending, and then of course I got all weepy because when you're watching something on a computer it really is in your face and then at one point I realised something I hadn't realised before in the cinemas and that was it - I just started bawling. :o Lucky thing I remembered to label the link as a Spoiler.

Originally posted by tgshaw
[ainon--since you're clicking on "capture" I assume you have something to capture things from :p ? I've found a site that has some screencaps posted, but certainly not a full "bird". Would you happen to have anything useful for the second scene involved in the question?]

Actually I would. :) But not tonight, I'm afraid. It's almost midnight and I should get to bed, especially since I have a cold now and I want to at least be okay enough for a third viewing day after tomorrow. :p

But I don't think of it as 'testing' Sam ... I think he's just carrying on as well as he can to maintain the illusion for Sam's sake that there'll be that return journey. And then realising he doesn't need to anymore

I'll try and do some capping tomorrow, if you haven't found another source yet, tg.

Well, even if these don't help solve the mystery yet, at least they're something to look at, poor quality and over-bright though they may be. ;)

ALL LINKS ARE ROTK SPOILERS

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/CU.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD1.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD2.JPG

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/CoD8.JPG

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/TheRedBook.JPG

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/FrodoBilbo.JPG

tg, let me know if you're interested. as usual, there're foreign letterings that get in the way at the bottom of the screen :p and you can actually see how skewed the screen is :rolleyes:

BunnieBugs

12-22-2003, 10:06 AM

Thanks for those caps, Ainon! :k

You know, I wasn't going to save them, since the aspect ratio is off and they don't look that great... but by that second one I knew I had to have them, imperfect as they are.

And as for the "mystery", ;) it has been possible to get ROTK online for at least two days, now (and no, I don't know where or how to find it, but I know a couple of people who have downloaded it). That is probably where these are coming from. I have seen some caps that are really pretty good, so it must depend a bit on what version you download, as they are of varying quality.

zkgrumpy

12-22-2003, 10:20 AM

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
What's not to love about a guy who says he doesn't want to marry a Supermodel? Is this an example of a guy that was raised right?

Oh, heck, they all say that! :D

Another continuity error: The Disappearing Barrels of Ithilien. Frodo is sitting against the barrel when Sam urges him to put the ring on and escape. When Faramir comes in and draws his sword to pull the ring from Frodo's shirt, there's no barrel.

Another: If Frodo and Sam were essentially Farimar's prisoners, how did Frodo have Sting when he pulled it on Sam in the post-Nazgul fight scene? If you were Farimar, wouldn't you make sure they were unarmed?

Answer: There was pipeweed in the barrel and Merry and Pippen sneaked in and swiped it when Frodo and Sam were dozing. :p

Tears: I didn't cry that much after seeing it. This morning, the floodgates opened and I've hardly stopped since.

Microexpressions: Interesting: Elijah uses that kind of instinctive analysis for excellence in what he does. If you've ever had contact with a child who's been abused in some way - psychologically or physical - you'll see that kid size up people instantly to evaluate the threat. The kid will take a reading on the abusive parent's mood to determine whether he can get close or not.

I would hope to <beneficent deity> that Elijah's ability is innate or developed since he started acting (which is entirely possible - there are any number of reasons why a person develops this ability). In any case, I like how Elijah uses his ability.

SPOILERS:

Return Journey: Back in TTT, Movie Galadriel says that Frodo begins to understand that the quest will claim his life. Frodo did not expect to return. When Book Frodo and Sam abandoned most of their equipment, Frodo made a comment about needing supplies: "...and then at the end, nothing." When Book Sam told Frodo to go ahead and he'd handle Gollum, Frodo said goodbye to him, as if he were already far away. In light of the hanging from the edge scene, I wonder if PJ's take on those lines was that Frodo anticipated having to immolate himself to destroy the ring. Book Frodo was perfectly happy after the Ring was gone to just stay there at the Crack of Doom. When Sam encouraged him to go back down the mountain, he was like "OK, if you want, whatever". In his mind, he was already dead.

Did anyone else chuckle at Sam in orc armour with pots and pans clunking along on his back? :)

~grumpy (thanks a bunch for the pic! Now I'm bawling again!) ;)

Mariole

12-22-2003, 10:42 AM

(((((Ainon!))))) Frodo and Bilbo is now my wallpaper. Thank you! :k

tgshaw

12-22-2003, 10:54 AM

Originally posted by BunnieBugs
You know, I wasn't going to save them, since the aspect ratio is off and they don't look that great... but by that second one I knew I had to have them, imperfect as they are.
Y'know, that aspect ratio thing is incredibly easy to fix (just a little time-consuming, as any user of WinDVD could tell you--we have to do it to each cap in most widescreen movies). Just resize using "Allow for distortion" and set the vertical at 85% while leaving the horizontal at 100%.

Along the same line, ainon, the Malaysian love-bird ;) you sent me last year was the same way--the vertical stretch was obvious while watching the movie, but since all I really needed it for was screencaps, I didn't really care--I just re-sized each cap, as I normally would. So that certainly wouldn't keep me from wanting it.

And as for the "mystery", ;) it has been possible to get ROTK online for at least two days, now (and no, I don't know where or how to find it, but I know a couple of people who have downloaded it). That is probably where these are coming from. I have seen some caps that are really pretty good, so it must depend a bit on what version you download, as they are of varying quality.
The source I've been using for caps is only partway into the movie, so there's not much Frodo and Sam stuff yet (it just has caps, not the movie). I have to re-size the caps from that one, too.

With the help of ainon's contribution (with the aspect ratio adjusted ;) ) here are some preliminary research results: Smile Gallery (http://home.earthlink.net/~screencaps/id24.html). IMHO, the Grey Havens smile is closer to the Elvish Rope smile than to the original Secret Sam Smiles (but others may see them differently :) ).

(and, ainon, I agree with your "silver spoilered" interpretation of that scene)

tata bolger

12-22-2003, 11:02 AM

Ainon, thank you so much!!

I took your caps and tried to clean, resize and adjust them a bit. My online hosting account got deleted, so I can only attach the result. I'll attach them in Harem - you know gals are all sobbing there, it is just what they need...:(

Frodo and Bilbo broke my heart.

Ariel

12-22-2003, 11:04 AM

CAPS! THUD!....

Ariel

tgshaw

12-22-2003, 11:52 AM

I see Mariole already gave the 85% instructions :o -- Oh, well, maybe my repeat will save someone from having to click back a page :rolleyes: .

Originally posted by Ariel
Have to agree here. I think one of the strengths of Tolkien has always been that the end is unresolved, that we as fans can imagine the conclusion that most suits us. It is what makes the story so widely treasured by so many people of different tastes and preferences. Pretty cool if you think about it.

RotK Book/Movie Spoilers to End of Post

Also keeps me, at least, within the willing suspension of disbelief. Everything Tolkien does tell us is something he could have known in his role of Middle-earth's historian. He could have found out from the older legends what happens to mortals in the Undying lands, and IMHO Frodo probably had told Sam about the dream at Bombadil's and Sam added it to the end of the Red Book as a statement of his hopes for Frodo. But there's no way Tolkien could have known what happened to Frodo after he left the Havens, so he can't tell us--if he did, it would rip away the "glamour" of his spell by showing us that he made it all up :eek: ! (Even in letter #246, where Tolkien says a lot about how and why Frodo sailed, he writes it all as an "educated guess"--as in, "This is probably what happened.")

Perhaps I will feel more through subsequent viewings, but the end of the film, sadly, didnt have anything like the power of the end of the book for me. I dont have any idea what could have been added or what lines/scenes could have helped, but I hope, whatever PJ does in the EE, that he makes that end more poignant. His leaving seems arbitrary and his pain merely a twinge in the shoulder. Of the other four hobbits, we dont see either Merry or Pippin settling back into Shire life (though the bouquet suggests Pippin does) so it is a little hard to see why Frodo is leaving and the others arent. Well, at least for me it was. Again, I am not sure what would have made this clearer but it was something I noted.
----------As far as the movie goes, yes, I cried at the Grey Havens, just like I do in the book. But the place in the movie where I completely lost it is on Mount Doom--a moment that's not even in the book per se--Frodo's look of complete peace just after he says, "It's gone." OME, what Elijah gave us there!! I think that moment became the Grey Havens for me in the movie, if that makes any sense. After that, for me it was all tying up loose ends.

I haven't seen the movie since Wednesday, but am going tonight, and will try to pay attention to exactly what we are told in the movie about both his suffering and the reasons he sailed West.

Ariel

12-22-2003, 12:03 PM

LOL tg, you answered that even though I posted that to the wrong thread! LOLsorry. And yes, I agree, and I have written his reasons for leaving in my own fanfic too and they are similar to what you mentioned but I wish PJ had put a bit more of it into his ending. I can imagine, yes, but I wonder if he had put a little more in I would have felt more. Ah well, have to go see it again and study the matter. ;)

Ariel

tata bolger

12-22-2003, 01:24 PM

Post full of spoilers

Tg, me too! The way he says "I can see the Shire!"!! OME! Such indescribable joy! And he says "Shire" a little slower than the other words: "S-shi-ire", as if the mere sound of it is sweeter than anything in the world.

god, I just lost it again...

Grey Havens did not move me to tears either, but unexpectably they made me smile. They were more sweet and less bitter than I imagined. For many many days other Tolkien fans tried to persuade me that Frodo's departure is not a tragedy, but a beginning of a new life, new hope for him. I saw it in PJ's film.

Re: Frodo's suffering post-quest. That is the most delicate matter. I am actually glad that PJ did not make emphasis on physical suffering - it is not the main issue, IMHO. Many people live with physical pain, but they suck it up and go on because there is something more important in their lives that makes living worthwhile. As for wounds of soul - the simple voiceover is totally not enough, I agree.

I heard rumors about the party scene in Hobbiton (Sam's wedding?) that was filmed. Perhaps, a lot of what Ariel said (in other thread ;)) is missing - Merry and Pippin living happily ever after - is actually filmed there? Frodo's look at the wedding speaks volumes. Plus, PJ likes to "circle" his stories: Frodo at the party in FOTR happily dancing with the ladies would be such a contrast.

Alyon

12-22-2003, 03:06 PM

Well, Ainon, Im finally writing. (This is Alyon's Daughter)

SPOILERS BELOW

Well, the first thing I said after seeing ROTK was I have never been so tense during a movie in my life. I sat there for at least half of the movie with one leg up on my seat, my arms crossed, shaking and panting. A friend told me that he hyperventilated when he watched it and had to breathe into his coat.
I ended up being very glad that I hadnt read the books because it was sooo exciting to not know what was going to happen. It really made for a better and more intense movie-watching experience for me.

Probably the parts I was most tense in were the battle at Minas Tirith and everything with Shelob. My mom had told me before I watched the movies that Sean Astin was getting a lot of attention in reviews and I was wondering why Elijah Wood wasnt getting as much attention. So, when I saw Frodo killed by the spider, I thoughtmaybe he wasnt getting as much attention because hes dead for half of the movie. But, I knew that the Shelob stuff was in the end of the second book, and it didnt make any sense that Frodo wouldnt be in the third book at all, so, I was confusedand very tense.
And Frodo looked very dead. I think it would be very hard to act dead with your eyes open, and keep the same focus point, because Sam picked him up a little and Elijahs eyes didnt move at allthat would be hard.

And Im really glad Pippin (my favorite) got in this one more. And it was cool to hear Billy Boyd sing, although watching Denathor eating did ruin the mood a bit.

Anyway, I think all of the actors (especially all playing hobbits) did a fantastic job at keeping the emotional level very high. I really liked it and I want to see it again soon!

END SPOILERS

Oh, and thank you, Ainon, for the recipes. They will be very helpful!

P.S. From Alyon (spoiler): Daughter wrote one post that was swallowed into webspace (she got bumped as she tried to send the post). In that one she also talked about thinking Frodo had fallen into the cracks of MD, because someone had told her months ago that he did--though she hadn't known if this person was right. So imagine how tense to think Frodo had died a second time in this movie!! She could finally breathe again when he lived again). I loved sitting with her and having her in total suspense.

zkgrumpy

12-22-2003, 03:52 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw

RotK Book/Movie Spoilers to End of Post

Also keeps me, at least, within the willing suspension of disbelief. Everything Tolkien does tell us is something he could have known in his role of Middle-earth's historian.

Interesting point. In the book, Farmer Cotton finding Frodo unable to get out of bed would be something that he would have told Sam. Sam's finding Frodo staring off into space saying "I am wounded, and it will never heal" (or whatever) is another that Book Sam might have recorded. Movie Gandalf, at least, set us up that the Weathertop wound would never heal, and Book Sam reflected that it was 2 years exactly since Weathertop.

Then there's the Ring's effect. Considering that Gollum was separated from the Ring for a long time (77 years in the book) and hadn't improved in that time except for a glimmering of Smeagol with Frodo, I can well believe that Frodo would not recover from its effect. It was actually worse despite the shorter time, because the Ring didn't fight Gollum or Bilbo, but it attacked Frodo constantly and more aggressively the closer he got to Mordor.

BTW, have y'awl (sheesh. Live in Virginia for 20 years or so and I start talking like one of them thar!) gone over the possible impact of Frodo's close proximity to the ring in the years that he lived with Bilbo? It's another possibility why PJ thought Elijah was The Frodo, despite his youth. I don't think we know how old Frodo was when he came to live with Bilbo, but it's possible that the Ring also slowed Frodo's aging. Though, the book says he continued to look like a young hobbit just out of his 'tweens for those 17 years.

There's the voiceover with Frodo walking through (clean - AAAAGH!) Bag End with a mug, musing about how does one fit back into a life that's essentially gone (I don't remember the exact words). It implied to me that he was hurt, depressed, and just couldn't make it work.

He could have found out from the older legends what happens to mortals in the Undying lands,

How about Legolas and the other elves? They knew about the Undying Lands. Surely Frodo did more at Rivendell and Lothlorien than look in mirrors and brush leaves out of his curls. :)

I thought that the movie gave a slightly different, more diffuse set of reasons stemming from the same reasons as the book. The main thing is that Frodo could not recover in Middle Earth. The backward look and smile :::: sobbing :::: gave us the justification - Frodo was going to get well and "live happily ever after, till the end of his days".

BAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWLLLLLLL!!!!!

As far as the movie goes, yes, I cried at the Grey Havens, just like I do in the book.

I thought I cried worse for the book. Today, I'm not so sure. :::: sniffle ::::

Frodo's look of complete peace just after he says, "It's gone." OME, what Elijah gave us there!!

That look was, imglo, the perfect visual expression of Book Frodo's expression and demeanor. SNNNNNOOOORCH ::: blowing nose :::

I'm tempted to just can Christmas stuff and go to see it tonight.

~grumpyhappyweepyandsleepy ;)

tgshaw

12-22-2003, 04:56 PM

Possible movie/book spoilers, entire post

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
Then there's the Ring's effect. Considering that Gollum was separated from the Ring for a long time (77 years in the book) and hadn't improved in that time except for a glimmering of Smeagol with Frodo, I can well believe that Frodo would not recover from its effect.
And we see Bilbo's reaction when he sees it at Rivendell--after being separated from it for 17 years. Later yet, when Frodo passes through Rivendell on his way back to the Shire, Bilbo asks (as he does in the movie in the cart) about "That Ring of mine," and says he would have liked to have seen it again. IMHO, that seems to say that even the Ring's destruction didn't heal the damage it had done.

It was actually worse despite the shorter time, because the Ring didn't fight Gollum or Bilbo, but it attacked Frodo constantly and more aggressively the closer he got to Mordor.
Oh, my, there could be much said on that (and has been, I think, over in the Green Dragon) :) . Especially during the trek across Mordor, Frodo is in constant battle with the Ring--trying to hang onto his will as the Ring tries to take it away. At the very end, the Ring wins--Tolkien compares Frodo being taken over by the Ring at that point to someone being smashed by a boulder; there's just no way he could have stood against it.

The fact that any of Frodo's self/identity still exists after that is a tribute to the inner strength of Frodo (and, IMHO, hobbits in general, although Gandalf considered Frodo "the best" :) ). Even though Gandalf has a higher regard for hobbits than most other people do, that surpassed even his expectations--He told Frodo even "way back" in Bag End that if he took the Ring from Frodo by force it would break his mind. But the Ring is taken from him by violent force when he's much more under its power than he was at Bag End. And although he's deeply wounded, he's not broken. The vast majority of Men, Elves, Dwarves, and I expect even Wizards, would have been permanent gibbering lunatics after what Frodo went through.

...gone over the possible impact of Frodo's close proximity to the ring in the years that he lived with Bilbo? It's another possibility why PJ thought Elijah was The Frodo, despite his youth.
Interesting point--I don't know that I've ever thought of it that way.

I don't think we know how old Frodo was when he came to live with Bilbo...
;) Now, if you're going to post with Tolkien geeks, you have to expect to have your questions answered :p . Frodo was 21 when he came to live with Bilbo--the equivalent of a human adolescent. Bilbo left on Frodo's 33rd birthday, the day he came of age, so Frodo would have been the equivalent of a late teen/early twenties "big person." Since he took possession of the Ring on that day, Frodo didn't age physically after that--until the Ring was destroyed. One of the "wishes" a lot of people--including me--have is that PJ would have followed the book in making Frodo mentally and emotionally middle-aged, even though he'd look as if he were only 20 or so; IMVVHO, Elijah could have pulled that off magnificently. [See, see, this really is on topic :p !] But PJ decided to eliminate those 17 years and go with a younger, more naive, innocent, and vulnerable Frodo than the book does, so that in the movie Frodo actually is the age he appears to be.

How about Legolas and the other elves? They knew about the Undying Lands. Surely Frodo did more at Rivendell and Lothlorien than look in mirrors and brush leaves out of his curls. :)
Yes... :confused: ...I'm afraid I'm not getting your point there. Frodo knew about the Valar and Valinor from Bilbo, who'd learned from the Elves and probably Gandalf. That's how Frodo can say, "By Elbereth and Luthien the Fair..." at the ford.

Of course, in the movie he doesn't know as much--in the extended version of FotR he asks Aragorn who Luthien was when he hears Aragorn singing about her. So (ah, maybe this is what you're pointing out??), in the movie we don't know how aware Frodo is of those things. In the book, he knows exactly where he's going when he gets onto the ship (even though those of us reading the book back in pre-Sil days didn't know). In the movie :confused: ?? With that smile, if he doesn't know where he's going, he's awfully trusting :p . I'm seeing it again tonight--first time since Wednesday--and will have to see if there are any clues in the movie. But, certainly, there are many ways he could have learned about Valinor "even" in the movie-verse.

I thought that the movie gave a slightly different, more diffuse set of reasons stemming from the same reasons as the book. The main thing is that Frodo could not recover in Middle Earth. The backward look and smile :::: sobbing :::: gave us the justification - Frodo was going to get well and "live happily ever after, till the end of his days".
Yes, I liked that take, and I think it's perfectly consistent with the book. :) :) I remember thinking that the voice-over could have said more than it did, but I'll see how it hits me tonight.

naiad

12-22-2003, 05:56 PM

Prevailing thought after viewing #2 - All the guffs, inconsistencies, and oversights of the three films are worth the moment at the Havens where Frodo bestows that supreme benediction in a lingering kiss upon Sam's brow . In that small act, Elijah expresses all the heartfelt love and sorrow of Frodo's mortal existance along with a divine understanding - to leave us with a scene not literally from the book but perfectly in its spirit, and a superb example of Elijah's best acting. Just remembering the scene leaves me stunned for hours... err, days...

Sorry to interrupt the flow from Tg's post - must go back and re-read that.

ainon

12-22-2003, 06:49 PM

tata, thank you :k for cleaning up the caps. And thank you, Mariole and tg for the hints on what I should do. I will have to do better tonight, then (how pathetic is it that I've just arrived at work and I'm already impatient to get back home so that I can get back to what I *really* want to do? :p )

In the meantime ... is anyone game for more of the crappy poor quality stuff? ;)

SPOILERS! RANDOM ROTK CAPS

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Frodo's reaction to Sam's "Destroy it!"

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD1-1.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD1-2.JPG

"Don't you let go."

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD3.JPG

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/CoD4.JPG

Various Angsts

For tg and Maeg - remembering the Shire (http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/CoD5.JPG)

For Mariole - Frodo in his study (http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/TheRedBookFrodo1.JPG)

pages for Sam (http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/TheRedBookFrodo.JPG)

For all of us who've been with Frodo and Sam through their journey -

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/CoD6.JPG

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/CoD7.JPG

note: the webhosts I'm on for these caps are v-e-r-y slow ... :o

END SPOILER LINKS

Spoiler remark about the Grey Havens & book:
I was very wistful in the cinema, but the thing was that as I was capping the Grey Havens last night I realised that when Frodo turns to smile at his friends, his friends on the shore try so hard to bravely smile back at him ... and that did me in, big time.

I don't think I cried first time I read about the Grey Havens in the book; I think I really started weeping after Sam says, "Well, I'm back." It was the selfish knowledge that the story had ended, that there was no more Frodo or Middle Earth that did me in at that time. But I was crying buckets first time after reading "The Tale of Arwen and Aragorn" - I loved that story. I guess you might say that was the only non-hobbit part of LOTR that I would reread over and over again. So I loved what PJ & co did to try and include so much of Arwen & Aragorn's tale in the movies.

Alyon's Daughter, thank you for your post! It's thrilling to have a newbie's perspective on the movie, especially one as detailed as yours! :) I'm so close to the book's story that it never would have occurred to me that some of the scenes you mentioned really would come across as major surprises, and that's such a pleasure to know. ;)

What fascinates me is how much Elijah and Sean got across to the audience despite the fact that their scenes had been obviously trimmed down to the barest minimum. I definitely expect to see a lot of extensions to those scenes on the DVD.

And Pippin! Pippin's always been my next favourite hobbit after Frodo and this movie is like a gift to everyone who adores him. :cool:

stormyday

12-22-2003, 09:09 PM

Ainon! Thank you!!

Hey, there is a wonderful review on TORN that has good things to say about Frodo and EW! Excerpt:
I hadnt a fault to find with Elijah Woods performance; hes been consistently good throughout the films (and, it now turns out, extraordinarily good in the latest installment, The Return of the King. Wood communicates so effectively with his eyes in certain scenes that Im inclined to think he made an extensive study of Jimmy Stewarts famous wheelchair-bound performance in Rear Window).

And though he [Frodo] is not always able to be as steadfast as Sam, the often overlooked truth is that Sam doesnt have to fight the same battle Frodo does. Which is why Ive always thought that honoring Sam over Frodo honorable and faithful though Sam is is a bit like honoring Simon of Cyrene over Christ.

The comparison isnt such a wild exaggeration as it may appear. The truth is that Frodo has many of the characteristics of a Christ figure, chiefly a willingness to sacrifice himself, to forgive others, and to bear an awful burden for the sake of others. And that hardly means a lack of drama. When the ring takes control of Frodo one final, terrible time at the climax of the story, it is in such sharp contrast to what weve come to expect from him especially without our having been subjected to the kind of foreshadowing so dear to Peter Jacksons heart that we fully grasp the horror of the situation. As Baylor University professor Ralph C. Wood puts it in his new book The Gospel According to Tolkien, Tolkien demonstrates that the mightiest evil can summon forth the very highest good in a character like Frodo, even as it defeats him. Moreover, as the scene plays out, we grasp three truths that are fully in line with Tolkiens deeply Christian imagination: that moral strength can carry us farther than we could have imagined possible; that even the greatest human moral strength cannot stand against the strongest evil (a Christ figure is not Christ, as Tolkien would have been well aware); and that there is a Power in the world greater than we can understand, great enough to save us when we cant save ourselves.

Tolkien emphasized qualities in his hero an iron will, unfathomable courage, humility, selflessness, and wisdom that help to make these points.

by Gina R. Dalfonzo at www.nationalreview.com

This review made me cry.
:( :) :( :k

tata bolger

12-22-2003, 09:11 PM

fights back the tears, yet again...

worships Ainon

Thank you!!!

deluby

12-23-2003, 06:10 AM

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilies/notworthy.gif Ainon!!! :k Thank you!!!!!

A quick post before I crash to bed:

A great interview/article on Elijah:
Bearing the burden of Frodo (contains spoilers) (http://www.sunspot.net/features/lifestyle/bal-to.hobbit23dec23,0,502734.story?coll=bal-artslife-today)

Those who requested the Angeleno mag, I've got them, will PM you tomorrow. :)

ainon

12-23-2003, 07:09 AM

deluby! Thank you! :k It's among the best interview articles we've seen yet. Finally! Some original questions asked. And very good answers.

Quote from the Holy Cross College theater and film professor Steve Vineberg:

"Elijah Wood does one of the most difficult things I've ever seen an actor do: sustain the sense of a burden that's eating up a character while he's struggling to maintain his humanity."

Looks like we have another honourary Faculty member here. :)

Well, I'm still in a strangely productive mood so here are a few more screencaps - corrected for aspect ratio this time. At least I think they look slightly better. Thank you, tg and mariole. :k But I've yet to figure out how to fix the exposure/colour/thingy so these also still look remarkably crappy. Sigh.

Don't worry though. My fascination for actually producing screencaps won't last for long. :p

ALL MAJOR SPOILER LINKS FROM ROTK

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Frodo at the Green Dragon (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/GreenDragon.JPG)

Frodo hugging Pippin (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenspippin.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 1 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavensmerrypip.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 2 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam1.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 3 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam2.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 4 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam3.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 5 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam4.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 6 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam5.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 7 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssam6.JPG)

Frodo and Sam at the Grey Havens 8 (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-1/93723/greyhavenssampast.JPG)

VillagePhotos isn't the fastest host in the world, so the pics might take time to load. But I'm also on a 5.0 MB/day limit at VillagePhotos - I hope these won't eat up the 5.0 MB too fast!

Mariole

12-23-2003, 08:09 AM

Deluby, thanks for that review! What a pleasure to see. Loved your review as well, Stormy. I'm glad that people, now that they've had a chance to reflect, seem to be appreciating the role of Frodo and Elijah in these movies.

Ainon, I can't see your pics -- bandwidth ran out. :( I may not be able to see them before I leave -- I'm getting on a plane in a couple of hours, and won't be home until after the new year. I hope to be able to drop in occasionally through my parents' internet, but my participation will be curtailed. It was lovely being here for the first rush of the opening, however.

(((((Faculty))))

Flourish

12-23-2003, 09:48 AM

Thank you, Ainon and Deluby! Wow to you both!:D

(Ainon, I can see your most recent pix with no problem, but the set from yesterday have exceeded your bandwidth or something.)

kuduk

12-23-2003, 09:48 AM

I am not all caught up on the Faculty thread but I want to get my first viewing impressions down (I saw it Friday night) before I head off for my second viewing in less than an hour.

ROTK SPOILERS TO END OF POST:

First of all, despite my hobbit-centricity and especially-Frodo-centricity, I was not overwhelmed by all of EWs scenes. That may be partly due to his subtlety (I wasnt blown away by him specifically the first or even second time I saw FOTR) or the fact that those were the parts that I expected to be overwhelmed by, but I also feel that, in some cases, not as much care was put into some of the Frodo/Sam/Gollum scenes as into the battle scenes. I usually skip over the battle scenes in FOTR and TTT but, so far, those were some of the most impressive in ROTK, IMO.

Briefly, off topic, some of the parts that did blow me away: the lighting of the beacons, Shelob, Pippins song intercut with Denethor and with the Osgiliath rout, the warriors eye view of the battles (I even ducked once), the ride of the Rohirrim, Eowyns triumph, Theodens death (especially I am no longer ashamed to be in such company), Pippins the eagles are coming!, the detail of the warriors armor, the clothes of the hobbits as they rode into the Shire. The only non-EW parts that really bothered me were how Pippin found the Palantir and Arwens illness (but both were quite brief).

Back on topic, the ring claiming at Mordor was brilliant! Thats an Oscar clip if I ever saw one. Unfortunately, given its spoilerish nature and the fact that Oscar nominations and wins sell tickets for first time viewers, it probably wont be used (if EW is recognized and nominated).

My major complaint after one viewing: IMO, PJ and company did not put as much effort into the Grey Havens scene as they did into the battle scenes. I expected much more magic. 1-2 hours into the movie, I was overwhelmed and felt just give them the Oscar now! (PJ and movie), but I had some problems with the detail put into some of the post-Quest scenes. I hope I change my mind after the second viewing and I havent read much others view of this yet. Pippin and Gandalfs what happens after you die scene provided beautiful voice over, EW and others provided beautiful acting (I have no problem with him there), Into the West is a beautiful song, PJ and company made a beautiful ship for Galadriel in FOTR.why couldnt they have put it together more magically? Maybe I expected too much.

I dont want to end negatively, I loved this movie, I thought it was brilliant and, in a lot of ways, was better than I could have dreamed.

Maeglian

12-23-2003, 11:10 AM

:( Frodo remembering the Shire....... :(

Oh

My

Sweet

Eru!

Waaaaahhh!!!

(Yes, that strange sound you're all hearing *is* me, sobbing my heart out.... )

Much as I love each and *every* Frodo and Sam scene in RotK, I think my favourite, favourite part is every single nano-second of the film from we see Frodo standing against the glare of the CoD, till the eagles arrive. I'm so in awe of that whole section, inclusive of the changes to canon which (the way they are acted out) are utterly lovely, heartbreaking and plain wonderful.

I sometimes wonder when I'll come down from the RotK high and start writing posts that are not mostly inane gushing and babble. :o

In the meantime, have you all seen this scan that's up at TorN? Somehow I find Shelob even ickier in this picture than in the movie - all my focus there has been on Frodo's desperate attempts to free himself - but in this picture: :eek: Yuck!

Caught in the web :eek: (http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/group/1246/view/11198)

Edit: How could I forget? :o

I'm wishing everyone here who is about to celebrate Christmas a very happy holiday and lovely celebration. :)

And everyone else, do keep up the discussion and go see that movie some more! :D

zkgrumpy

12-23-2003, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Mariole
[B]Deluby, thanks for that review! What a pleasure to see. Loved your review as well, Stormy. I'm glad that people, now that they've had a chance to reflect, seem to be appreciating the role of Frodo and Elijah in these movies.

Very cool interview. Thanks! :)

Pictures:

OK, bawling again. Dad-gummit.

I really need to go see this movie again. Maybe Friday.

~moreweepythangrumpytoday (maybe it's that migraine that I'm fighting.)

naiad

12-23-2003, 12:54 PM

Ive always thought that honoring Sam over Frodo honorable and faithful though Sam is is a bit like honoring Simon of Cyrene over Christ. Stormy - thanks for posting that. This is exactly what I have thought all along and it's good to see an 'authority' articulate it.

Question: Does anyone know the translation (or even exact words) of Frodo's gasped elvish when he calls to Elberith in CU? I can't find that cry in the book either :( .

Eldalieva

12-23-2003, 01:56 PM

I think he says, "Aiya elenion ancalima!" which translates to "Hail, brightest of stars!" In the book this is the second half of an incantation to Elbereth that helps Frodo and Sam get past the Watchers at Cirith Ungol. Sam says the first half: "Gilthoniel, A Elbereth!"

Maeglian

12-23-2003, 02:14 PM

***pops in for a tiny moment***

Elda!!! Good to see you! Glad to know you survived the movie... :)

I paid close attention on 2nd viewing 'cause I wanted to be sure - and I believe Frodo manages to include the name of the star that gives him the light as well; - that he shouts "Aiya Eärendil elenion ancalima! "

One of the "little things I just simply LOVED!"

(I'm not really here! :o )

zkgrumpy

12-23-2003, 02:55 PM

EDITED: Sheesh. I was repeating myself.

Again, this may have been posted already, but they're remarkable photos. Amazing how different The Lad looks when he's acting (posing, in this case). Beautiful, beautiful pics. Viggo is an incredible photographer.

http://www.theonering.net/scrapbook/movies/cast/elijah_wood/view/8885

From TORN:

Nice:

http://www.sunspot.net/features/bal-to.hobbit23dec23,0,6905390.story?col

Naughty (Caryn James gets coal in her stocking!):

http://www.salon.com/ent/feature/2003/12/22/james_lotr/index.html

Must be why we've all been sitting here either stunned or bawling for the past week, huh?

:::: wild crazed laughter ::::

And on TORN, there's a rumor that the RotK EE is nearly 4 hours long. I heard 4.5. :::: happy smile ::::

I've been browsing TORN top ten lists, and about bursting my eardrums trying not to LOL. Unbelievable.

~grumpy (can you tell I'm bored at work today? ;) )

BLOSSOM

12-23-2003, 04:51 PM

Just a quick post,

I'm furiously trying to catch up here at KD, but with all the ROTK threads popping up over in The Trilogy forum it makes for a lot of reading! I'm loving it all though, and now I'm finally up to date with The Faculty.:)

I've still only seen ROTK once - last Thursday, the second day of its release. I HOPE hubby will take pity on me over the Christmas holiday and we'll be able to go again. He actually loved ROTK - very impressed. I was way more than impressed - I was emotionally bowled over by the film, especially Elijah's heart-breaking Frodo.

ainon!!! What a Princess you are, giving us screencaps!!! Frodo and Sam at the end of all things! Thank you, thank you, thank you!:) :k

deluby - it's lovely to see you popping in. Thanks so much for the link to that great article on Elijah. I totally agree with the quote about Elijah's performance from Steve Vineberg that ainon referred to. So true.

I know everyone is entitled to their opinion - even film critics - but I think I'm going to try and ignore all the negative reviewers who 'don't get' our boy's talent, and those who openly slate him. It upsets me too much. It's so great to read what Steve Vineberg said about Elijah - now there's a man who can read and recognize a stunning performance when he sees one.

SLIGHT ROTK SPOILER

Maeg - I also love, love, love the fact that Frodo got to speak his Elvish line! I need to see ROTK again very soon in order to further absorb Elijah's delivery of said line. It was gone in a flash.

I also adored Frodo's voiceover at Bag End. I could listen to Elijah's Frodo voice for ever and not tire of it.

END ROTK SPOILER

Take care those of you who are off on your travels.

HAPPY CHRISTMAS TO THE FACULTY AND ALL AT KD :)

Be good.
Bye.

shilohmm

12-23-2003, 05:08 PM

MERRY CHRISTMAS!
To the Faculty!

Still suffering from a sinus infection hang-over from that bug, and spending most of my posting energy in the Trilogy forum, but thanks to all for all the wonderful conversation and screen caps and articles! Very busy absorbing all of Frodo's scenes, but I do have a definite opinion as to Frodo's last smile. For the moment. ;) :p

Spoiler!
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My absolute favorite shot right now is the one of Frodo at the Crack of Doom (is it Crack or Cracks? I've forgotten again...). He's facing out, holding up the necklace and Ring - I think it's in between the two times Sam shouts to let it go - and you can see, right there on EW's face, Frodo's desperation and dawning horror as he realizes he can't let go! Totally awesome, and then of course his Isildur moment following up, and his, "It's gone," and the tear running down his face as he tries to comfort Sam (I am dead cert he is crying for Sam, not for himself - how I love him!), and and and...

Well, maybe I don't have a favorite shot at the moment. ;)

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End spoilers

Need to go check out grumpy's corrected link, now. :D

Sheryl

naiad

12-23-2003, 06:36 PM

Frodo's parting smile - should go down in history, next to Mona Lisa's. I will remember it all my life and feel a chill each time.

But Shilohmm, I'm with you - my (other) favorite part is as you describe, Frodo at the Crack of Doom (no s per book index entry).

deluby

12-23-2003, 08:37 PM

Merry Christmas Faulty!!! :k

I've been trying to catch up on stuff I missed during the last few days and thought I should post this for those who missed the Early Show interview on Dec18th, CBS website has the video interview up.

Video interview with Elijah on the Early Show, Dec18th. (video link on the left side) (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/12/18/earlyshow/leisure/celebspot/main589327.shtml)

Mariole, honeyelf, Hobmom and Elda please check your PMs. :)
Elda, since your msg box is full I wasn't able to send you another PM to correct a typo in the earlier PM, there's a "would" that should have been "won't". :o
Did I miss anyone else's requests? Feel free to trout me if I did. :D

Have a great holiday everyone!!!!

shadowcatshadow

12-24-2003, 03:04 AM

Could Elijah's performance of Frodo at Mt. Doom be compared to Charlton Heston doing Moses parts the Red Sea, in the Ten Commandments movie, as far as an appearance of Softness (Femenine) and Strength (Masculine) ?:confused:

It looked that way to Me. ;)

What say You? :confused:

kuduk

12-24-2003, 06:52 AM

Newsflash! It gets even better the second time!

I take back nearly everything negative I said yesterday.
What a glorious film! What amazing performances! I'm looking forward to discussing the Minas Morgul Stagger, the non-Weathertop wound, whether you believe the wheel of fire speech (that's the only one I'm still having trouble with....ducks trouts).

Oops, Santa's coming, Merry HanKwanzMas everyone!

naiad

12-24-2003, 08:45 AM

It's Christmas Eve for some of us - Happy Yule! Cheers to {{{all}}}!

Here's something I found that felt rather hobitty (in my currently obsessed state :rolleyes: ) something like Bilbo might have said (recalled) to Frodo, at least in sentiment, as they drifted West over the waves:

And I think over again
My small adventures
When with a shore wind I drifted out
In my kayak
And thought I was in danger.
My fears,
Those I thought so big,
For all the vital things
I had to get and to reach.

And yet, there is only
One great thing,
The only thing:
To live to see in huts and on journeys
The great day that dawns,
And the light that fills the world.

---Eskimo Song

Best mid-winter wishes*

ainon

12-24-2003, 09:36 AM

MERRY CHRISTMAS, FACULTY!!

deluby, thank you! :k

I'll post one last batch of screencaps tonight. I'm reverting back to being lazy again. :p :D But if anyone has any specific screencap requests, and they don't mind how crappy the screencaps look, I can do 'em. :)

RotK SPOILERS

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Frodo sees Gandalf (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Gandalf.JPG)

Frodo sees Sam (http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/Sam.JPG)

"Throw it into the fire!" (http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/CoD/?action=view&slideshow=true&sort=descending&PHPSESSID=f96859107cad7de7f86fc548b9c5d84a)

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Happy Holidays!
((((Faculty)))))

Ariel

12-24-2003, 10:00 AM

Originally posted by kuduk
I take back nearly everything negative I said yesterday.
You know, people were asking me what I thought of it after the first viewing and I knew that I should keep my mouth shut! I did the same thing with my first viewing of FOTR (lo, these many years ago) I spent the whole viewing swallowing the changes that had been made to my favorite books but in the end found that I loved the movie for what it was, not a literal translation of the novel but a film that captures a lot of the feeling that the book elicited for me. I think FOTR gave me a little more of the feeling I had with the book, (though Ill wait till the EE to judge ;)) but ROTK does an awesome job of bringing this intensely complex tale to the screen.

And yes, second (and third) viewings did let me get past my feelings of oh, I didnt see that scene that way and appreciate what I did get instead.

Ariel

tata bolger

12-24-2003, 10:17 AM

SPOILER DISCUSSIONS, WHOLE POST

Originally posted by kuduk
I'm looking forward to discussing ... whether you believe the wheel of fire speech (that's the only one I'm still having trouble with....ducks trouts).

He-he, so let's talk about the wheel of fire speech! ;)

No trouts from me! ;) I did not have a good first impression of the "wheel..."speech either. For some reason it seemed too dramatic and almost forced.

Kuduk, and everyone, what was your preconceived vision of the speech? When I read the book, in my mind "I do not remember..." sounded much more calm, almost melancholic. And I never imagined such intence horror of the last part: "I can see it with my living eyes". So, naturally, my first impression was "it is all wrong!".:D

But then thinking about it more, I realized what when I read the book I mentally substituted spoken words with inner monologue. Book, as a medium, is very inward-oriented, and sometimes I as a reader do this subconsciously. (Do you, guys? ;))First, as for "I do not remember...", there is no way that a hobbit exhausted to the extreme could have possibly say it aloud in a manner I imagined, but it suits well for something one would say to himself. And second, I realized that I also shielded my mind from the full horror of Frodo's last words, just like all those people from Tg's essay "who don't get Frodo". Self-preservation instinct?:confused:

Many criticisms of PJ have said that he is more fascinated with good than with evil, and it shows in the movies. I guess IMHO it is one place where PJ's tastes paid off - for me personally, at least. He chose to show Frodo absolutely horrified when his soul is on the brink of destruction, show how is it to be so close to ultimate evil. Seriously, it is very uncomfortable to watch. I caught myself trying to blink through the scene the second time in the theatre. I guess that's an expected response... :( :(

Sometimes I wonder if PJ&Co really mean it... Not only in this scene, but in many others. But then, same with JRRT... :p The story is as much alive in our minds as on pages or screen, I guess...

Ariel

12-24-2003, 10:55 AM

Just a quick question to those who are capping...

With the widescreen images you guys are getting are you sure it is vertical to 85%? Just between you, me and the fencepost, I find that putting the vertical to 80% somehow 'looks' more accurate.

What do you think?

Compare the following pic to Ainon's cap above...

Ariel

zkgrumpy

12-24-2003, 10:56 AM

Originally posted by tata bolger
SPOILER DISCUSSIONS, WHOLE POST

He-he, so let's talk about the wheel of fire speech! ;)

No trouts from me! ;) I did not have a good first impression of the "wheel..."speech either. For some reason it seemed too dramatic and almost forced.

Kuduk, and everyone, what was your preconceived vision of the speech? When I read the book, in my mind "I do not remember..." sounded much more calm, almost melancholic. And I never imagined such intence horror of the last part: "I can see it with my living eyes". So, naturally, my first impression was "it is all wrong!".:D

But then thinking about it more, I realized what when I read the book I mentally substituted spoken words with inner monologue.

Reading the book now and years ago :::: thumping cane soundly on floor ::::, I've always kind of read very fast over that part because I've never been able to put it together. I also watched that part very quickly in the movie. When Book Frodo finally says "BEGONE!" to Gollum, Sam sees him as a stern, white-robed figure holding a wheel of fire (for me, this refers back to Gandalf's observation about transparency at Rivendell). Frodo says that he can see the wheel of fire. I don't understand the wheel of fire. Is it a good wheel or a bad wheel? And when did this Wheel of Fire pop up? I thought it was a big firey eye. Frodo's been trying to avoid the Eye for three movies, and all of a sudden he's talking about a wheel of fire? Is this like Elijah's (the other one) Wheel within a Wheel? - wait - no - that was Ezekiel. Unless they cast Ezekiel Wood for the role of Frodo.

:::: banging head on kbd and recovering slightly ::::

If that sequence of Frodo at the CoD doesn't win The Lad an Oscar, nothing in this world will. What an incredible visual transforrmation from determination to struggle to desperation to the final surrender to the Ring! Geez! Elijah was a genius stroke of casting on PJ's part. You feel like you can see into Frodo's soul through his eyes, and as Samwise said of the firewords, "That doesn't nearly do it justice" (or whatever).

I think I've finally flipped. Must be that missing UPS package containing the red leatherette version of LotR that's supposed to go to a party today as a present and now I have to go to a bookstore on *CHRISTMAS EVE!* BAD UPS! Bad! Bad! No biscuit!

Has anyone noticed that wrapping presents is an excellent time to pop a DVD or so into the ol' player? :p

Best wishes for a happy and safe holiday. If you're driving, especially in this slop on the East Coast today (or is it just No. VA?), please drive carefully. People are driving sideways out there!

Love to the Faculty, and thanks for welcoming me. :::: sniffle ::::

~grumpy

Flourish

12-24-2003, 11:52 AM

SPOILERS!!

Frodo saw the Ring as a Wheel of Fire--it was a bad thing. (The Eye is round too but that is not, I think, what he's talking about here. The Eye in the movie is sort of a slit, too, no?) In the speech Frodo says he can see the Wheel even with his waking eyes--it has overtaken his consciousness and he can no longer escape it. (Brilliantly realized, even before he speaks of it, in Elijah's efforts to shield his sight from the insistently growing presence of the Ring on the slopes of Mt. Doom.)

In the book scene with Gollum, I believe Sam sees the power of the Ring acting through Frodo's will--in the book, at least, Frodo actually uses the Ring against Gollum thus, though without ever putting it on. He bends Gollum to his own will, for a time. Sam's vision of Frodo as clothed in white expresses (I feel) Frodo's essential purity, which even the Ring had not then fully corrupted.

Or, well, here it gets a bit sticky: Did Frodo's probably reluctant use of the Ring there in fact corrupt him further? And if it did and he undoubtedly knew it did even as he was forced to use it, did that not contribute to his despair...:(

But that is a topic for a different thread.

The Wheel of Fire is a bad thing. I thought Elijah's acting in that speech surpassed any mental image I had formed of the scene in, lo, these 30-odd years of reading the book. Like Tata, I never quite realized the sheer horror Frodo must have been trying to express in those words until I heard Elijah say them. He is, after all, at the very end of his resources...... he has nothing left to fight it with.

tgshaw

12-24-2003, 12:32 PM

Aaargghhhh!!! I so want to talk about the wheel of fire and the white-robed figure and all that... and paradox.. and anything else that fits (in some thread recently, I think the white-robed figure actually came up). But I am also so late to be leaving for my mom's that everyone will be sitting there waiting for me (and I was supposed to be the first one there) :rolleyes: . So maybe late tomorrow... Or late Friday...

What's mostly made me late is that &#*$%^# website building program I have to use at the "freebie" site where the crebains roost. It takes forever to upload pictures :mad: ! This is probably too little, too late to help with ainon's bandwidth overload, but I've got the Grey Havens pics here:

http://home.earthlink.net/~screencaps/id26.html

I wanted to get CoD and some others done, but can't do it now... sorry.

Regarding 85/80% -- I dunno, but back when I first started screencapping, I remember I posted scads of pictures at different aspect ratios and got opinions from just about everyone who read the thread, and the 85% was what came out the "winner". That's what I've been doing ever since then--so, do all the LotR caps at my main website look "off"? :confused: I'm guessing part of ainon's might be the crebain she's working from itself--hard to say. When I was working with hers, I tried to go by actual measurement of the cap in inches, but I don't know how that worked. (The first pic, with Frodo and Bilbo, has always looked a bit different to me--more of a painting than a photo, not that that's necessarily a bad thing.) I'd be glad to take opinions on the above page... tomorrow... or Friday :eek: !! Have to run!!

Flourish

12-24-2003, 12:59 PM

tgshaw, I'll look forward to that discussion! If we can't keep it on topic here, please let me know where you go with it and I'll drop by. The Ring itself is a paradox--its shape, according to Tom Shippey, expresses perfection, completion, yet also the limitation of its evil--it comes back around to itself in the end, it doesn't lead anywhere and so it cannot create. Shippey compares it to the Road that Frodo travels... *searches for a way to get back on topic*.....

AH! Wonderful screen caps of Elijah there! Thanks to all who've posted them and happy holidays to everyone.:D

peaceweaver

12-24-2003, 03:01 PM

Taking a moment here to wish all my esteemed colleagues a Very Happy Holiday Season, whatever holiday you celebrate. :)

Me, I am celebrating coming to terms with Peter Jacksons vision for The Return of the King. I saw the film last week, and have been tormented by it. The alterations to the story made me very unhappy, although I was enthralled by the spectacle and the performances. The film made me sad, but not in a good way. :( Thank Eru for all my wonderful, insightful colleagues here at KD. Reading your posts helped me cope with the altered storylines and understand a great deal about the dramatic choices Peter Jackson made. Last night, I saw the film for the second time (with Goldie :k ) and made my peace with it. I was just plain wowed. Am plotting a third trip now.

And may I just say, given the topic of this thread, how much I admire Elijah Woods performance? Just give the man an oscar and get on with it!!

Ainon and tg: I have no idea how you are coming up with those screencaps, but my god, dont stop!

Merry and Happy to all!

Ariel

12-24-2003, 03:21 PM

(((((((((((PW))))))))))))))

You were not alone...

Ariel

shilohmm

12-24-2003, 03:29 PM

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Me, I am celebrating coming to terms with Peter Jacksons vision for The Return of the King. I saw the film last week, and have been tormented by it.

(((((peaceweaver)))))

I was really shaken first time through, and all I could think about walking out were the changes I didn't like - I was actually better able to handle TTT, first time through! I walked out of TTT thinking, "well, I think I'll like it next time," while I walked out of ROTK thinking, "I dunno if I'll ever get used to some of those changes." :eek: I kept mumbling, "The Frodo fans are going to be really unhappy with this," and such like - hubby thought I hated it.

But by the time we got home I was adapting. :p First time through I did think it a great movie, but I was none too sure about whether it was LOTR enough for me to handle it. Second time through I was sold. Third time through I could finally feel "with" Frodo a bit - before that I was just too overwhelmed by the whole thing. :)

originally posted by peaceweaver
Just give the man an oscar and get on with it!!

If only they would! One of the trivial questions in the slides my theatre runs between movies is about the youngest guy who ever got an Oscar - 28, as I recall - and I just sigh. I confess I have little hope, but, oh! EW so deserves it!

Forgot to do the Happy Hanukkah thing when it was timely - we usually celebrate Hanukkah, but this is the second year in a row our "Hanukkah celebration" is going to be potato pancakes and not much more. :o And eldest son danced around on Solstice doing, "Happy First Day of Winter" stuff, and I neglected that as well. :rolleyes: Probably a very good thing there won't be another LOTR movie coming out next year during Christmas season. :p

ainon! Those CoF captures! Thankee muchly! :k :k :k

I would have been blown away by EW's performance even if I hadn't reconciled myself with what PJ did - that boy is *good*! I hope people feel free to gripe in the ROTK forum if they don't like what PJ did, but, oh, I love this movie! I can appreciate a good performance in a movie that doesn't work for me, but it's such a blessing when both are brilliant. :)

Sheryl

Hobmom

12-24-2003, 03:39 PM

I have managed to save almost all the available Frodo screencaps. There are a few from the Mordor scenes that aren't available where I found them anymore right now but I've got hundreds of good ones from the end and a bit from the beginning. I may be able to get more up from the Stairs scenes. Have to see how that goes.

I didn't do these but they are from where everyone else was finding them at LJ. They are a little squished looking but you can correct that on your own picture editing programs. I was going to do it myself but it would just take too long. The quality is really pretty good considering.

Anyway the caps are going here.....

New Fro-caps (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288242789)

Have fun wading through over 400 of them!:cool:

deluby

12-24-2003, 06:15 PM

A little holiday present for the Faculty: :k

one last smile (large version 440x240 3.6MB) (http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smile.gif)
medium version (300x164 1.8MB) (http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smilem.gif)
small version (200x109 856KB) (http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckycc/smiles.gif)

I don't think the large version plays as smooth as other smaller versions, unless it's saved to hard drive I guess. Sorry about the picture quality, I'm still working on it. :o

Haven't read through new posts yet, be back later.

Eldalieva

12-24-2003, 06:41 PM

Oh Deluby...that's devastating.

Thank you.

Sigh.

BuckleburyFerry

12-24-2003, 09:17 PM

Oh, my...

I might just wear that .gif out...

Dear me...

naiad

12-24-2003, 10:00 PM

Stormy - Finally read the article you mentioned by Gina Delfonzo (at www.nationalreview.com) and was also moved.

Elda - Thanks for the translation and reference.

mel headstrong

12-24-2003, 10:32 PM

I will never catch up after my pre-RotK KD discussion blackout.

However, a couple things going through my mind recently:

1) Going back to Saturday Night Live (which I got to see thanks to Mariole. Thanks, Mariole!) and the Frodo & Gollum sitcom sketch. I don't know how much discussion of this there has been, but after seeing RotK it got stuck in my head again. How many actors can come across as completely different people when they are spoofing themselves playing a character? I mean, Elijah Wood spoofing Elijah Wood as Frodo looks nothing like Elijah Wood as Frodo. (And it's not just the wig... it's the facial expressions!) So many actors always look like themselves regardless of who they're playing (Harrison Ford, Tom Cruise...), but Elijah looks completely different when playing HIMSELF.

Amazing. Just amazing.

2) RotK spoilers
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Has anyone done comparison screencaps of FotR and RotK? Today (viewing #2) I payed attention to something that caught my eye the first time. There are a number of points after the Ring is destroyed where Frodo's expressions echo scenes from the beginning of FotR, but Frodo looks subtly older/wiser/more solemn/sadder.

These are from memory (of both movies) - I'm not sure if my memory is accurate. Do other people see these similarities?

a) Laughing when seeing Gandalf in Houses of Healing -> laughing after "A wizard is never late..."

b) Raising mug at the Green Dragon -> raising mug at the Green Dragon in FotR EE

c) Smile when Sam goes to ask Rosie to marry him -> smile after pushing Sam to dance with Rosie

d) Fading smile at Sam's wedding -> Fading smile when Bilbo disappears at the birthday party

Am I nuts, or are these visual echoes really there?

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/ spoilers

It's too bad it's unlikely that Elijah will get nominated for an Oscar. (With the various buzzes, a win would be unlikely in any case.) He would really be a wonderful campaigner, with his unbridled enthusiasm and willingness to praise everyone else associated with the project -- I could easily imagine him getting interviewed as a potential youngest Best Actor, and have the entire interview seem like a campaign for PJ for Best Director and the movie for Best Picture.

Mel

honeyelf

12-24-2003, 11:15 PM

Thanks to my beloved husband I have come to terms with the scene that left me so angry the first time I saw RoTK. This would be the one where Frodo tells loyal, devoted Sam "You can't help me anymore; go home!" :mad:

Husband-dear, who to date has seen this movie once more than me:( , explains it this way. With Gollum working at him, Frodo has become paranoid and fearful. But in addition to that he is also fearful of the Ring "taking" Sam. He sends him away because he is afraid, but also because he cannot risk the Ring destroying his dearest friend. At first Sam is so devastated he doesn't realize that he has sent the person he loves most off in the control of a monster. ::sniffle:: ::sob::

Deluby, TG and all thank you for the gorgeous screens caps! Especially the GIF of Frodo's last smile, Deluby! Wonderful!

Honey!

PS. There is a wonderful interview with our ever-gracious and lovely Elijah here (http://www.sunspot.net/features/bal-to.hobbit23dec23,0,6905390.story?col) Sorry if this has already been posted by anyone.

PSS No, Mel, I don't think you're nuts at all; I think the paralells are there.

Keeping positive thoughts for Elijah to be nominated for an Oscar!

bagendbabe

12-25-2003, 08:31 AM

Faculty-ites, thank you all so much for the wonderful screencaps ... they are amazing. I could not imagine anything I could ever want more for Christmas.

Deluby, I believe I will wear that gif out too ... it is heavenly. Sorry for all the assorted adjectives!

Sorry to be brief ... washing up and Xmas duties call ...

A VERY MERRY CHRISTMAS TO EVERYONE ...

Hobmom

12-25-2003, 01:44 PM

Those parrallels of pre-and post quest Frodo are definitely there.

And I love Elijah's subtley sadder, much wiser older Frodo. And again he conveys his changes without words. He really ought to be recognized for his talent. It's good to see some reviewers HAVE done this and are also rooting for him to get an Oscar nomination if not a win. If they give one to Tom Cruise over Elijah I think I will have a conniption! Tom's OK but that's all..just OK. Elijah is absolutely brilliant.

So in the continuance of positive thoughts....

The Oscar for Elijah Petition is up to nearly 2000 signatures but I think we can get more than that. So if you haven't signed please do.

As I said, I notified Elijah's people about it so hopefully he knows about this himself.

At the least it's our 'thank you' to Elijah.(Kind of like that 'gift' we were discussing sending him last year).

At the most it might just nudge a few more Academy voters to consider him for the award.

Sign, sign, sign!!! (http://www.petitiononline.com/EliOscar/petition.html)

ainon

12-25-2003, 06:21 PM

Oh my, Deluby. You gracious soul, you! I am so going to keep staring at that for hours. THANK YOU! :k

I see beautiful parallels in the movies too; the one that struck me most on first viewing was Spoiler - the moment when Frodo and Gandalf laugh together. Every time I thought about that moment it would bring a lump to my throat. It was just such a perfect bittersweet bookend-type scene to everything Frodo and Gandalf had had to go through since that day in the Shire

Meanwhile, I'm sure the Faculty could go on a long time discussing Frodo's "You can't help me anymore". ;) Since I went in spoiler-free I wasn't expecting that development, but the way Frodo said the line immediately let me know that I had nothing to worry about. I thought the two had great moments there.

And heretic that I am, I was also happy that it got Frodo alone in Shelob's lair. :D

/Spoilers

(((Hobmom))) almost 2000! :cool: And bless you for compiling all the Frodo caps in one place.

Ariel, 80% ratio looks okay so I can try that if I screencap anything else. Thanks. Meantime, it's been so long since we actually had pics in the Faculty pages itself. These spoiler-free making-of pics might be nice.

The lady who gets to make Frodo look angsty! ;)

http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/rotk-werk-11.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/rotk-werk-02.jpg

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-7/280194/rotk-werk-31.jpg

Hobmom

12-25-2003, 10:48 PM

I've updated the caps with Minas Morgal and Stairs of CU Frodo caps.

More Caps (http://www.imagestation.com/album/?id=4288242789)

shadowcatshadow

12-26-2003, 02:56 AM

I just got the TT on video and I noticed it came with a second tape of 94 min. of Extra Scenes, was this where Shelob makes an appearance and was later pushed to ROTK, or did Shelob belong in the third installment anyway? Plus is there we see Evil Frodo, or is that in ROTK extended scenes? I am so confused.

Maeglian

12-26-2003, 04:10 AM

Deluby! :)
I'm so happy to see you back with us! Apologies for not saying so before - I think my brain has been really muddled since I saw RotK.

I'll be really happy too when we don't have to label Spoilers! and spoilery comments anymore, but here they are:

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About Frodo sending Sam away, I'm completely fine with that scene. It works like crazy. I think it truly manages to encompass bits and pieces from various canon scenes, and it was one of the most devastating things I'd ever seen (that was before I'd seen the rest of the film, of course!)

Now, the thing is, the scene has been discussed in depth in the "Official RotK spoiler discussion thread" over in the trilogy section, pages 53 and 54, if you've got the standard page set-up selection. My own very lengthy post with lots of opinions and references is there.

Perhaps, if we post more on it over there, everyone at KD can join in the discussions. :)

------

Ooohh, parallells and comparisons and contrasts! Yes! The LotR trilogy provides so many opportunities for that kind of analysis that I just LOVE it! Seeing the whole story arch now, one really realizes the many ways that events and characters and actions are mirrored or contrasted - discussion material enough for a year and a day, or more! :)

I certainly agree with those you mention, Mel!

I've also seen people complain about the "end of all things" dialogue between Frodo and Sam, because it doesn't go into the importance of forgiving Gollum. But really, what we got (apart from it being acted so well that it gives me huge shivers just *thinking* about it!) ties this tragic, operatic "ending" to the innocent and somewhat plaintive Hobbiton party beginning, and so helps contrast the two worn-out and impressive beings on the stone with the cute and innocent two we saw at Bilbo's party.

And I just *can't* find fault with that.

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End spoilery discussion

ainon - LOL: I admire the extreme willpower of EJW's makeup-lady in that picture. Or in any other makeup session he ever went through. I mean, for her to go on with the job instead of just , ....you know, stopping, and staring, and STARING....

She's right up there with Roisin the voice coach, when it comes to impressive and focused job concentration.

Hobmom - I do hope EJW gets to hear of your efforts and of all who truly thinks he deserves an Oscar. :)

ainon

12-26-2003, 07:05 AM

Okay, now, guys ... have you all seen this Golden Globe annoucement?

http://www.newlineawards.com/

And I don't mean that none of the actors get nominated. I'm looking at the pic that they're using. I don't believe I'll ever get tired of that pic they're using. :)

On a lighter note - since I am here already, I got notified by e-mail that 'Flipper' wil be released on DVD January 20, 2004! Oh yes. We've all been waiting for this, haven't we? :p :D

http://www.amazon.com/o/ASIN/B0000VV512/ref=pe_snp_512

tgshaw

12-26-2003, 08:03 AM

First of all--Happy Boxing Day to everyone in Australia!! Enjoy the movie!! :cool:

ainon--LOL--I was going to post that same news about Flipper! What I'm hoping more than anything is that this might mean there's hope for Radio Flyer, The Good Son, Oliver Twist, and--dare we hope?--North and Paradise. Even... maybe... Chain of Fools?! But even though you've given the news, I just have to quote their little blurb, as their coyness in not "naming names" gave me a chuckle. Have to give credit to Amazon--again--for "getting" the fact that Elijah's got a solid fan base. They also mentioned Child in the Night in this email, but still just that sometimes available/sometimes not VHS that they've always had:
We've noticed that customers who have purchased "The Adventures of Huck Finn" also enjoy "Flipper" on DVD. For this reason, you might like to know that "Flipper" will be released on January 20, 2004 on DVD. You can pre-order your copy at a savings of 15% by following the link below.

Originally posted by shadowcatshadow
I just got the TT on video and I noticed it came with a second tape of 94 min. of Extra Scenes, was this where Shelob makes an appearance and was later pushed to ROTK, or did Shelob belong in the third installment anyway? Plus is there we see Evil Frodo, or is that in ROTK extended scenes? I am so confused.
shadow--you may have to tell us what's on that second tape--I don't know if anyone else here bought the extended version on VHS. IIRC, though, PJ decided very early on that Shelob would be completely pushed to RotK, because he thought it would be too overshadowed by Helm's Deep if he left it in TTT. She may show up in some of the extra material if there's any preview or making-of feature about RotK, but not in any added TTT material. Don't know about Evil Frodo--he's in the extra material on the DVD, but it sounds as if you've got some of what's on the DVD but not everything.

So just watch it already :p and let us know ;) .

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I also want to second Maeg's suggestion that anyone who has problems and/or explanations for any of the scenes in RotK come over to the "Official RotK Spoiler Thread" in the Trilogy forum. There are a lot of people at KD who've gotten some really helpful (IMHO) insights into some of these scenes who don't post in this thread (yes, I know, hard to believe :rolleyes: ;) ), and there are some very good discussions there on the scenes some people have found difficult. If anyone has a hard time with a scene that hasn't been mentioned yet, go ahead and throw it into the pot and see what comments people have.

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I'm not getting anything on that Golden Globe link, but will try again later.

Goldenberry

12-26-2003, 11:00 AM

ainon, thank you for the lovely photos! Oh, to be that makeup woman.:D ;)

At the end of my (fourth) viewing of ROTK on Christmas Day, during the credits as the sketch of Elijah appeared on the screen, the woman sitting next to me said to her husband, "He was excellent". I felt a swell of pride; as if somehow I had something to do with his astounding performance!:o :rolleyes: :)

Happy ROTK Day to our long-suffering Aussie kin!

Flipper on DVD? I dunno. Must ponder this one.:p

Ariel

12-26-2003, 11:49 AM

Originally posted by Goldenberry
...during the credits as the sketch of Elijah appeared on the screen, the woman sitting next to me said to her husband, "He was excellent".
Oh, I would have loved to have heard that! I talked to my mother (a non-reader - though my father and I both chastise her for it) the other day and she praised nearly every actor but Elijah! *grumble*

Thought I haven't been nearly as bothered by the tendency most people have had of overlooking Frodo/Elijah as I thought I would be - I guess because I see and appreciate what a wonderful job he did it matters less to me what others think - but I can't help thinking Elijah, like Frodo, will never get the honors he deserves. :(

And he seems just the type who would never say a word about it either... :(:(:( Oh, I am so glad his cast-mates think so highly of him. He deserves that honor, and more.

Ariel

erendis

12-26-2003, 12:44 PM

Elijah will not be recognized because the Powers That Be don't know that he's acting. It doesn't even register as acting. It's just there.

I am convinced that awards and recognition do not go to the best acting, but to the most acting. If that makes any sense. If an actor completely disappears into a part, it's taken for granted. But if an actor oozes Industrial Strength Angst, and makes damn well certain that everybody knows that he's pretending to angst out, well -- O my! Accolades galore!! We have seen it so many times that it has its own name: I am Sam's Beautiful Left Foot syndrome, a.k.a. Oscar-Bait.

I know the Sam fans will not like me for this, but the whole time I was watching RotK, I got the feeling that Sean was only 3/4-into his part. The other 1/4 was "looky at me! I'm acting!" In fact, all the buzz for Sean Astin this year is precisely because of that. He was given a part that oozes Industrial Strength Angst, industrial enough that you know that he's acting.

Elijah's acting style is so subtle that he may never be recognized for it.

Mariole

12-26-2003, 01:29 PM

Just dropping in to say Happy Holidays! to all, and thank you for continuing your lovely posts and piccies. I'm on the parents' computer and must log off, but I wanted to say (in a bit of a retraction of the holiday spirit) that I must agree with Erendis. I don't see Sean Astin being as good an actor as Elijah (don't hit me!). I go by the reaction shots. Too often (I particularly noticed this in FOTR, where there were a lot of crowd shots), when all Sean has to do is react, sometimes he does not appear in character to me. (We'll leave aside discussing his accent, which has never quite worked for me, although it did improve as they went along.)

The thing I look for in a "good" actor is how they react. Look at Ian McKellen -- he is never not reacting appropriately. You will never catch him out of character or looking bored or not focusing on the actor who is performing. Ditto Elijah. Ditto lots of the cast. Not ditto Sean A. I don't mean to bash him, because he did improve, but he wasn't my favorite actor. I guess we all can't help having our favorites, but Elijah is mine, and there you go. Other people are entitled to their favorites. They may even give them an award! :p But it won't make them my favorite actor or have me enjoy their performance any less.

Okay, now I really must fly. Happy holiday wishes to all.
Yours in haste,
me :p

Hobmom

12-26-2003, 01:39 PM

Elijah's acting style is so subtle that he may never be recognized for it.

While I tend to agree with the idea that over-acting gets the big awards..... the Faculty has been trying to think positively about our Elwood.

He WILL be recognized! He will!

Where is our elusive and mysterious Serena? ;) Surely there are computers wherever she is. We need your positive thoughts.

shadowcatshadow

12-26-2003, 05:27 PM

As long as you have movies that either belong on HBO After Dark, or Direct to video, on the big screen during Oscar season, something like ROTK won't get best picture.

As in "Somethings got to give" a movie that all that I've known who've seen it, (as in my family and others I know), is getting good reviews in the Trade papers, but not by the folks that actually watched it, that is the only reason a sci fic/Adventure type show will not get an Oscar.

A Sea change has to occure. If Elijah gets best actor, it will be the first time an actor in a Sci Fi type show got one. What will happen to the film industry if this happened? Nothing bad, but Conservative People seem to think so. Like I said, the film industry needs a change, and it sure is getting one.

Alyon

12-26-2003, 07:29 PM

Happy Holidays!!

Stormy--this is overdue--but thank you for posting the review from the National Review. It really spoke to my feelings. He talks about the intensity of Frodo's goodness from the book sort of being sacrificed for the drama of the movie. Though the reviewer still loved the movie and thought Elijah was excellent.

And
((((Ariel, Peaceweaver, Kuduk, Shilohmm, Honey ))))) (who else?)--

I'm so glad to hear that with further viewing you conquered some (or all?) of your reservations!! That is good news to me as I want mine conquered, and have not yet had the time for a second viewing (I'm dying to see it again---but this holiday season is so busy for us. Hopefully this weekend...). Again---it is odd to love it and still be left with these reservations. Thank you all for giving me hope that they can be quashed!!

I got some lovely LotRs books for Christmas---but I wish there was a book just on Frodo!! Or frodo and sam.

:D :D :D :D know any????

Oh and my 15 year old daugher--who every year since she was four writes and records a song for me at Christmas- --did the most hilarious and wonderful recording this year called : Christmas in Mordor. !!!! It is so cool. I'll at least post the lyrics when I have them written down.

((((Ainon))))--ohhh, loved the pic of Elijah getting his makeup on.

Re Hobmom's petition: If nothing else it is a nice gesture to Elijah. Get your friends to sign!!

Alyon

Hobmom

12-26-2003, 08:54 PM

Two very interesting articles have surfaced one with Sir Ian again confirming what he has said all along about the 'rumors', quite firmly and clearly.

Sir Ian Quotes (http://www.zap2it.com/movies/news/tabloid/story/0,1259,---19772,00.html)

And another longer interview with Elijah and the other three hobbits...equally clear and showing the stress of living with the rumors.

The Hobbits Speak (http://www.citypages.com/databank/24/1203/article11783.asp)

Flourish

12-26-2003, 10:27 PM

Thank you for the links, Hobmom. How I wish, the next time somebody in the cast mentions Sir Ian's insistence that Sam should take Frodo's hand when Frodo awakes in Rivendell, that they would put that gesture in its book context!

Sam took Frodo's hand because he had been waiting throughout Frodo's illness for it to grow warm again.:rolleyes: Not much sexual content there, and none should be inferred.

naiad

12-27-2003, 02:11 AM

Mariole, Erendis - I share your opinion of SA's acting. Since the beginning with FOTR, I thought his acting was good, not extraordinary, for the reasons you mentioned. Regarding his lack of sublety, possibly his delivery is not subtle because the character he portrays isn't. Elijah, on the other hand is given the task of portraying a thoughtful, introverted character, made even less obvious by the interpretation of PJ and company. Elijah's superb expression of this character (inspite of the director's choices), as many here have said, is often lost because the majority of audiences do not expect and aren't tuned to sublty (of any kind). I'm admitting this not to criticize Sean's Sam as much as to weight the balance in favor of Elijah's Frodo.

ainon

12-27-2003, 02:32 AM

The IGN FilmForce site (http://filmforce.ign.com/?fromint=1) has a series of interviews with LOTR actors; really long in-depth interviews. None with Elijah yet. This excerpt from Dominic Monaghan's interview kinda fits in here because of our speculation with whether or not Elijah would go for stage acting.

Umm, just to put the first question and first line in Dom's answer in context ... Dom had been talking for a couple of pages about theatre acting vs. film/tv acting, and just as this conversation shifts to Elijah here he'd been on a jolly spree of tearing Viggo Mortensen's reputation to shreds. :p :D

IGNFF: So how difficult was it for you all to prop Elijah up as an actor?

MONAGHAN: Oh yeah that was an uphill struggle. He's an interesting guy, man. He'd been acting for a lot longer than any of us guys. He's been acting since the age of 8 or 9, or something like that, and by the time we got to New Zealand he was 18 so he'd been acting for 10 years. He's pretty polished and he's pretty good, and also the responsibility of playing Frodo must have been pretty huge for him, but he never really expressed too much about feeling the pressure. He just was enjoying himself so much. I think he was having the time of his life, Elijah, because he'd worked on jobs for 6 or 8 weeks at a time and made friends with people, but then they'd left, and now he had the opportunity to hang out with a group of guys and girls for over a year-and-a-half, and he just truly embraced that.

IGNFF: And Elijah's never done any theater work, right?

MONAGHAN: No, he never had

IGNFF: So he'd never had that sort of camaraderie before

MONAGHAN: Yeah And subsequently, Billy and I have said, "Look, we'll do a play with you. Me and Billy will look for a play, and we'll find one, and we'll get a really good theater in New York or London, and the three of us will do a really great play together." And he's slow to come around to that fact he's into it. It's scary, but we said, "Well, it's a lot less scary if you do it with us guys."

IGNFF: If you want to make it really easy for him, the three of you could do Waiting for Godot

MONAGHAN: Exactly. We'll do it at some point. The three of us will work together on stage at some point and it will be a really good play.

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Right, there's serious Oscar talk and all going on, but what I have is this other concern here. As tg's post indicates, Amazon is implying that people like us would like to own the 'Flipper' DVD. Well, I don't know. I have major gripes with the 'Flipper' DVD. Where's the feature-length commentary, man? Where're the featurettes on dolphin training and lead actor swimming training? Where's the special documentary feature on 'The Boy Who Would Be Frodo?". Really. You'd think they'd figure out better ways to cash in on Elijah now. ;) :D

Great to see you popping in hre, Mariole! Hope you're having a fine time! :k

Mariole

12-27-2003, 08:48 AM

Thanks for your comments, Naiad! I don't want to seem too much of a Scrooge, but I do think that Elijah's portrayal was in a different category from some of the other performances. This difference in style can help to make a movie successful. One of my favorite movies (don't laugh! Well, okay, laugh) is The Russians are Coming. I loved the silly humor and the Russians in their little black suits. But the point of this is what some reviewer somewhere said about Alan Arkin, as the main Russiain -- who played his character straight, with the stress and urgency you'd feel if you were stranded in a strange land with weirdo people who wanted to shoot you. He said that it seemed as if Arkin was "in a different movie from everyone else" (the serious vs. the silly movie). And I think that's what gave the movie its power. It was very well received in its time, though subsequent generations tend to think it rather silly. But if all you had in PJ's LOTR was a bunch of whacking or wild emoting, you wouldn't have nearly the engaging movie as the one you get where whacking meets internal reflection and character disintegration. Much more interesting!

Ainon, thank you for those quotes from Dom M. I thought it was ironic that the youngest cast member had way more experience than nearly everyone else. I'm sure the others relied upon his movie expertise, and it's good that they're willing to help him stretch. That's just his unassuming personality, but I think that most creative people need to have constant challenges to keep themselves fresh. As Albert Einstein said, "The more I know, the more I know I don't know." That's a good rule to live by. There are always more areas to fill in.

Cheers, everyone. Hope your holidays are now entering the more restful phase. Congrats to our Australian friends who are finally able to see ROTK -- Whahoo!

shireling

12-27-2003, 09:33 AM

Just a brief visit to say I hope everyone enjoyed the Christmas break - I've had very few opportunities to get online over the past few days, but whenever possible I've been reading the wonderul Faculty posts since ROTK was released. I have only seen it once so far, on the 17th, but thanks to my dear husband I will be seeing it again tonight. He gave me the elven brooch and in the bottom of the box were the two ROTK tickets. I'm so looking forward to it - after the first time I didn't really feel capable of talking or writing about it in any coherent way - it was like a massive emotional shock and Elijah just tore out my heart and trampled on it. I keep seeing disjointed images from it in my mind - Frodo with his arm around Bilbo in the cart (don't know why, but in the middle of a family meal at a restaurant yesterday this image suddenly popped into my mind and stayed there for the rest of the day!), Sam removing the web from Frodo's face and my blood running cold because it was so realistic - he just looked completely and utterly dead and it really got to me - Frodo remembering the Shire again - his beautiful smile at the end, of course - and I think it was BLOSSOM who mentioned his voice when he took over the narration at the end - I have always adored his voice - so gentle, and yet strong, and always as clear as a bell.

HOBMOM - needless to say, I have signed your petition and you're right - we must think positive:) I really hope he gets to know about it.

wood

12-27-2003, 10:30 AM

Hi EVERYONE!!!H ope you hade a great holliday.

With all the talk about Elijah getting an oscar,i just glad
if he got a nomination(but in my heart ihope he wins one)
on the site warofthering you can wote who you want to win
a oscar (just for fun)go there an wote for our man!!!!!!!!!

mel headstrong

12-27-2003, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by erendis
Elijah will not be recognized because the Powers That Be don't know that he's acting. It doesn't even register as acting. It's just there.
One would think that even the densest of critics could recognize that one does not go from portraying "unalloyed goodness" (or whatever the quote from Sir Ian M was) to a miniature Dark Lord without doing some ACTING. :rolleyes:

I'm still just stunned by the whole performance. You know, I don't really care if Elijah is nominated for an Oscar -- it's not something I expect. But I hope that directors see this movie and consider casting Elijah in a wide variety of other parts, for years and years and years, and that some of those movies will actually be GOOD beyond Elijah's performance, and that I won't be embarrassed to see them in theaters or rent them or whatever.

I mean, it's fine to be able to get to see Orlando Bloom and Viggo and Billy on the big screen, but you know, Orlando's Will Turner reminded me of Legolas from time to time, and Viggo's Hidalgo character sounds like Aragorn with an American accent to me. Elijah's Frodo is so different from one part of the movie to another. Give the guy more good parts, for crying out loud!!!

Mel

tgshaw

12-27-2003, 12:34 PM

Just spent my first few free hours since who-knows-when (not counting when I was too sick to sit up for more than a few minutes) reading several of the interviews at the IGN site--thanks for the link, ainon. After reading those, I'm very interested in seeing one with Elijah there, as most of the interviews there now are quite centered on each person's acting--both career-wise and how they approach it as an art. I do hope they're planning to interview him soon--They've done all the other members of the Fellowship except John R-D, plus Liv Tyler (and I thought I saw Andy Serkis listed, but never actually clicked on a link that led to his).

IMHO, Billy's is the most interesting as far as his early life and how he got into acting--while Dom's (besides keeping me in stitches over his "revelations" about Viggo... ROTF!) had a lot of good material about how stage acting technique differs from that for film acting; especially interesting since, among the younger cast members, he's probably the one who came into LotR with the most balanced experience between the two.

I realized partway through Billy's interview that I'd read it before (it was dated last April), but today I noticed one thing I don't think I would have if I hadn't read all of the interviews one right after the other. Now, I'm sure this fact is extremely important to any aspiring actors out there :p : Billy, Dom, and Elijah each played the Artful Dodger in their "younger days" (Dom and Billy in school performances of Oliver!).

-------------

Especially to ainon and Goldie: In regard to Flipper, please keep in mind the primary purpose for the invention and utilization of DVDs: Screencaps!!! :p Although, actually, because of that, I'm on the fence about buying the DVD; I already have the movie on VCD from yesasia.com, and have to decide if being able to make better quality screencaps than I can now is worth another purchase. (And remember that amazon's little "suggestions" are always pulled from computerized records of actual buying habits. Not much of a surprise that a lot of people who buy Huck Finn would also want to buy Flipper; it simply shows how many people realize the most important element of each of the movies ;) .)

--------------

Getting a bit more serious:

As far as Elijah's acting in LotR being better than other cast members', it kind of strikes me as the opposite of "damning with faint praise." Like someone in Renaissance Florence looking at a painting and saying, "Well, yeah, it's pretty good, but compared to that da Vinci guy..."

Have to say that two actors who impressed me in RotK more than I ever thought they could were Viggo and Billy (and Dom had some great moments, but I'd expected that :) ). I think all of them (especially Billy) deserve awards--there aren't enough to go around just within the cast of this one movie, IMVHO, if you compare them to the rest of the competition out there! But also IMVHO, all the good acting just makes it more obvious that Elijah's simply in a different realm. I'm afraid I'd have to use the search function :o to remember who made the original comment about people who see a unicorn walking down the street and say, "Huh, weird horse," but I think that image is right on target.

Edit after reading Mel's post--Totally agree about how this role should lead to other great ones for Elijah: He wouldn't have been cast as Frodo if it hadn't been for Mikey Carver (talk about "disappearing into a character") and I can't imagine that people casting future movies won't have noticed what he's done in all three LotR films. And, while I certainly don't want to see him stereotyped as Frodo (and specifically want to see him do more great, intelligent comedy), I hope that what he's done with that role will bring offers of others that play to his unique strengths as an actor. Orlando and Viggo are welcome to their action movies, and I'm sure will do well with them, but IMVHO Elijah--like Frodo--is capable of a completely different kind of "self-giving." Maybe I'm overly optimistic, but I actually do think that directors who know that's what they're looking for will recognize it when they see it; those who watch Frodo on Mount Doom and say the equivalent of "Huh, weird horse," IMO wouldn't give him the kinds of roles he needs and deserves, anyway.

Hobmom

12-27-2003, 01:23 PM

Lots of good thoughts on the superiority of Elijah's acting. He IS in another realm compared to most of the others. And the others are all VERY good. But Elijah is that special talent that is just somehwere beyond them all. Actors like him come along ..maybe..once in each generation.

I've heard some folks recently comparing Elijah to Jimmy Stewart. Now there was an actor who could break hearts with a look. I hope I have the movie right but isn't it the film 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington' where Jimmie Stewart gives that long heartbreaking exhausting filibuster speech to congress and then collapses from exhaustion at the end? Now I'd LOVE to see Elijah take on a role like that! And there is a similarity between Elijah and Jimmy in that they both act instinctually from the heart.

I also see a similarity to Dustin Hoffman especially in his younger roles like the 'Graduate'. And Robert Downey Jr.(have I said before I also love RD Jr.)

Elijah is the young actor that stands out as the great original amongst his peers. I hope he gets the brilliant parts he deserves and has the wisdom to recognize them when they are offerred to him.

Alyon

12-27-2003, 05:15 PM

I think that if Elijah's Frodo performance had been in a small, independent movie, it would be getting lots of attention. The audience for those are more film buffs and likely more appreciative and analytical of the nuances of performance. He'd be getting raves. As it is, the audience for RotK is so broad and the action factor (which is very good) perhaps most notable to the typical movie goer. While I thought Sean Astin did a great job, I agree with those of you who said you didn't think it so outstanding. Not to denigrate his performance at all. It was fabulous. But after all the pre movie buzz I had heard I expected to be blown away with something exceptionally different. He was great, but not the stand out so many say he was. I just think that Sam appealed to people. The point of view and of sympathy switched over to him--and Sam also got to act tough, which a lot of regular movie goers seemed to want of the hobbits. (that Sam and Merry and Pippin actually fought was enough to impress a number of guys I know...hmmm).

And then you get the "chick flick" comment with all those boys bonding at the end. Heard that again today from a guy. Loved the movie (said he), "but that long ending with all that male bonding was a little too much for me."

Again, in an independent movie I think we would be weeding out the audience element that is just a little too uncomfortable with the noble hugs and kisses. And the tears....And Elijahs prettiness..

Nonetheless....I'm sure the number to people who appreciate Elijah is much higher than we think. I wonder what the acting community thinks....

BLOSSOM

12-27-2003, 06:54 PM

Originally quoted by Goldie:
At the end of my (fourth) viewing of ROTK on Christmas Day, during the credits as the sketch of Elijah appeared on the screen, the woman sitting next to me said to her husband, "He was excellent". I felt a swell of pride; as if somehow I had something to do with his astounding performance!
_________________________________________

More or less the same thing happened with me last year at a screening of TTT, Goldie. The end credits were rolling, and an elderly couple sitting near hubby and I leant forward in their seats, eyes intent upon the screen. The cast list appeared (in alphabetical order) and the husband duly announced: 'Frodo - Elijah Wood!' They had obviously been impressed with Elijah's performance, and I remember feeling the same sense of pride that you described.:)

Not sure how long we should put up spoiler warnings, but just in case:
WARNING - ROTK SPOILERS AHEAD!!!

I'll add my agreement to all that's been said about Elijah's performance throughout the LOTR trilogy. Heart-breaking doesn't begin to describe it for me. He excelled as Frodo; physically, emotionally - I can't remember crying in a cinema before, but watching ROTK, despite my efforts to hold the back the tears, I was overwhelmed at The Grey Havens, and just lost it completely. It isn't so much Sam, Merry and Pippin weeping at Frodo's leaving, it is Frodo himself - he is sad, yes, but he is also strong and dignified. What really strikes me is that he has reached a level of NOBILITY (which my dictionary states as: goodness; greatness of mind or character). Of course Frodo always had that noble spirit to some extent, even if he didn't know it, but here he simply exudes that quality, and in a way I find that more moving than if he had shed tears. Of course I could have lost the plot entirely!!!

Elijah was awesome. One of the most moving moments for me was this one:

Frodo's torment (http://www.imagemagician.com/images/blossom/FrodoxsTorment.gif)

Frodo's suffering is heart-wrenching, angst-inducing - it's almost torture to watch, Elijah makes it so believable.

Shireling - Hi, I've been logging on to your live journal hoping to read your thoughts on ROTK, but you haven't put anything up there since you've seen it. Like you, for days after I saw it, my head was swimming with images of Frodo (particularly the one in the gif above). It's as if you're haunted by Frodo himself, or perhaps it's Elijah's performance. It's difficult to find words to express how you feel, and talking to family and friends often makes you feel worse if they're not really interested, and, like mine, they already think you're barmey! I saw it again yesterday (a crebain unexpectedly came my way for Christmas, curtesy of LOTR clueless but much-beloved family member - it's by no means perfect, but I'm not complaining. It will suffice in between viewings at the cinema) and I thought perhaps I wouldn't cry this time - hey, I've already seen it. Wrong! I love it - yet I can hardly bear to watch it - it's so disturbing. Shelob's Lair - chilling, and here again Elijah just astounds me with his depth.

Tg - I have to agree with you regarding Billy - Pippin came into his own in ROTK, and I really enjoyed all of his scenes. Ian McKellen was terrific too, and for the short amount of screen time he received, David Wenham impressed me - I really felt for Faramir. Of course all this made the time in between the Frodo/Sam/Gollum scenes more bearable, but I was still itching to get back to Minas Morgul, or Cirith Ungol, or Mordor, or Mount Doom - any place where Frodo was basically.

END OF ROTK SPOILERS

I see you couldn't stay away, Mariole. Hope you're enjoying your holiday.

Deluby!!! Great to see you back. You beat me to it with that gorgeous smile gif. I don't know how you post such large gifs - everytime I try to upload a gif over 2MB on imagemagician I get an error message and it won't accept it. I usually save them on my PC and to CD at about 400 pixels but always have to make them smaller to post here. :confused:as usual. Oh well.

ainon - thanks for that Dom interview snippet. I haven't read the full thing yet, but it would be great if Elijah did some stage work. I think I remember reading somewhere that he said he would like to but the idea scared him a litlle. Is he too subtle for the stage? It would depend on whether he could adapt to such a different genre - he would probably have to go against his natural insticts as an actor. Of course, Many actors (Ian McKellen is a prime example) merge effortlessly from stage to screen. If Elijah did appear in a play sometime, I wonder if any of us would get to see it.

On that thought I'll say goodnight.

Goodnight.

BuckleburyFerry

12-27-2003, 07:36 PM

Just popping in to emphatically agree with BLOSSOM's spoiler-rich .gif and all the feelings regarding it.

Going to see it again Monday, and will be sure to note something new to contribute.

ainon

12-28-2003, 01:49 AM

Blossom! Thank you for your gif! :k

tg - did you meet up with Bridget and Hellga? :cool:

Hello to BuckleberryFerry and wood and shireling for managing to pop back in. :) I'll be out of town for a week, but I hope there will be internet access. I don't think there's much hope for RotK access, so at the very least, please, please, please let there be Internet access!

I plan to keep checking back at the IGN site too for when (and if) there's an Elijah interview. They got all the hobbits so I'd be surprised if they missed Elijah. Another good site is CHUD.com but all they have this time are press junket material. Still good though. There's this excerpt from Elijah's part in the press junket:

from CHUD.com

... we asked Wood how he got any kind of relief from all the emotionality he had to be put through in the movie, in particular when dealing with scenes in Return of the King. "There was always relief and we never took things too seriously," Wood recalled. "There was always a sense of comedy on set. Peter was always quite funny and working with the other Hobbits was always hilarious. Obviously for a lot of the stuff in the third movie, I didn't have the other Hobbits around - it was just me and Sean - but we always managed to lighten the atmosphere and make it fun and have a good time to take away from the grim nature of some of the scenes. When the camera stopped rolling, there'd be jokes and silliness and then when the cameras rolled, it was back to the intensity of the ring and the destruction
of Frodo."

Blossom, ditto to what you said:

Frodo's suffering is heart-wrenching, angst-inducing - it's almost torture to watch, Elijah makes it so believable.

It's far more angstier than anything I could have imagined just from the book, that's for sure. You've all talked about it already, how when we read the books we internalise things, but when it's right up there on the screen it's this sudden realisation of just how terrible and unbearable it really was.

Of course it helps that every bit of angst that could be milked was milked. 'Wheel of Fire' in the book was angsty but it never followed on something that makes me cry.

I guess what follows will all be in spoiler territory. I hope everyone has seen RotK by now! It would have been such a long wait otherwise. Prim, Viola, estella rose?

ROTK talk from here till end of post

This excerpt come from an interview weeks before RotK came out. I got it from TORn so I don't know when it was posted. I read it and wondered how Elijah might have played the Wheel of Fire scene in his audition. And I also appreciated the change that the scriptwriters made to the scene to make it so memorable and angsty.

Bringing down the curtain
By Paul Lieberman, Times Staff Writer

(excerpt)

Looking back is at the heart of their key scene in "The Return of the King", a scene that provides another reminder of how long a trip it's been. Wood recited his lines for it at three stages: In L.A., when he was a hopeful making his audition tape for Jackson; then in full costume, on the side of Mt. Ruapehu, a real volcano in New Zealand; and finally this past September, during a looping session in London, part of the seemingly endless "tweaking" to make sure they don't blow what they've started with the trilogy.

Though a saga like this is fantastical by definition, Jackson's mantra was "make it feel real," as in the scenes on the mountain which he calls "the heart" of the film. "If anybody is going to cry," the director says, "that's going to be the scene that will start them."

By phone from New Zealand, Jackson says he cried himself late one afternoon in May 2000, when they filmed Wood collapsed on the side of Mt. Doom when he can't go on, "nor can he give the ring that he's carrying around his neck to Sam because Sam would not destroy it. He knows how powerful this thing is."

In New York, Wood recalls how Astin's Sam "cradles Frodo and tries to make Frodo remember the Shire. 'At this time of year, the strawberries would be in bloom..' "

"Remember the barley in the fields," Astin pipes in, "something that isn't this barren wasteland of choking smoke and doom."

Jackson's favorite line from the films is Sam's declaring, "I can't carry it for you, Mr. Frodo, but I can carry you," and hoisting the exhausted hobbit on his shoulder.

--------------------------

And then this is from CHUD.com, discussing Elijah's and PJ's take on what happens at CoD.

Elijah's take:

from CHUD.com

The ending of the movie, as you know from the books, has Gollum biting off Frodo's finger and then accidentally falling into the lava flow within Mt. Doom. Peter Jackson had told us they'd filmed the version for the movie - where Frodo battles Gollum and actually pushes him over the edge - two different times and two different ways. We asked Wood about which version he preferred - the one where Frodo is desirous of getting the ring back and the one where he's trying to knock the ring into the lava. "The first version that we shot, I think was not ambiguous enough as to whether Frodo pushed Gollum off or it was an accident," Wood explained. "I think the first version that we shot also may have happened too easily. Frodo, his finger's bitten off, he stands up and looks at Gollum, runs at him and Gollum falls off. We wanted there to be a bit more ambiguity within that particular moments as to the actual motivation for Frodo running at Gollum and also for it to seem somewhat accidental and there to be a bit of a struggle with the ring and there to be something behind that as well." So, was Frodo after the ring??? "Frodo's absolutely after the ring," Wood stated. "He's not trying to save it. That's my feeling - oh, God yeah. What it comes down to is he already made the decision to 'own the ring.' The ring is his at this point, he's made that decision, and he's down the 'turn.' Having it bitten off and taken away from him isn't going to change that. I think it's going to make him even more incensed when he sees that the great rival - the other ring-bearer and the one he can relate to has suddenly got it. I fully believe that Frodo intended to kill Gollum. The way that it plays out, it doesn't actually seem that way and it may not be the case, but I wouldn't put it past that character in that particular situation."

PJ's take:

from CHUD.com

We next asked about the ways Jackson decided to shoot the ending, a small change from the book. "Well, we shot a version which was the same as the book, which what happens in the book is that Gollum gets the ring from Frodo, he's overjoyed, he goes into this sort of dance on the edge of the cliff and he accidentally kind of trips and falls into the lava and Frodo's lying there watching it happen," Jackson noted. "We shot these versions on the same day, it wasn't like we shot the one and then came back to it afterwards and shot it again, we actually shot that version, so we had it in the can, which was Andy Serkis, really, it was just Andy dancing and then Andy fell back onto this mattress. But I just always felt that that would be not really the way we wanted to go because, I just felt you couldn't come through three movies and then have Gollum accidentally trip and fall with the ring, I just thought people would go 'Huh?' And, so I thought we owed Frodo the moment of actually participating, so the version that's in the movie is the one where we have Frodo charge at him and fight, the two of them are grappling and the two of them go over, which is sort of similar to the book." So, did Frodo want the ring himself??? "You'll have to ask Elijah," Jackson replied. "I said to Elijah, what we have to do is be ambiguous. You have to go at Gollum, you have to go for the ring, and there has to be a sense of people not knowing, are you trying to grab it back for yourself, I mean has any thought of destroying it now and all you want to do is grab it back or are you now grabbing it off him so that you can complete the mission and see it destroyed? Elijah turned to me and he said, 'I think I want to keep it.'"

zkgrumpy

12-28-2003, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Alyon
[B] The point of view and of sympathy switched over to him--and Sam also got to act tough, which a lot of regular movie goers seemed to want of the hobbits. (that Sam and Merry and Pippin actually fought was enough to impress a number of guys I know...hmmm).

I loved Sam. I loved Sean's performance. Sam was a role that was more vocal and more overtly active than Frodo. I'm still amazed at the excellence of the casting. Sean fit into Sam perfectly.

Comparing Sam and Frodo, Sean and Elijah, is like comparing apples and lychee fruit - both delicious, but different, with one more ethereal and exotic than the other. I can't judge which was better or worse. They're too different - both the roles and the actors.

Movie industry people are often wrong about how something will be perceived by the viewers, because the viewers, especially in this case, cover a breadth and depth of experience, values, and beliefs far beyond the range of any participating in the movie. We see it in comments like the "sympathy will switch to Sam and people won't like Frodo anymore", and in many of the cast insisting that it's an pacifist tale, and even in Elijah's hearing the Voice of the Ring incorrectly when it was calling to Aragorn. He thinks (at least on the FotR commentary) that the ring says "Bless us" (I think). Actually, it says "Elessar", which is what Galadriel called him in Lothlorien, and that others who have memorized more of the book :p will be able to interpret better than I can after 5 hours of sleep. ;)

And then you get the "chick flick" comment with all those boys bonding at the end. Heard that again today from a guy. Loved the movie (said he), "but that long ending with all that male bonding was a little too much for me."

:confused: For the last 23 years, at the end of May, we've see them on the highways all over the US, singly, riding double, in small groups and caravans miles long, men and women on motorcycles heading for our own White City. They are a cavalry that make the Rohirrim look like pony rides at the fair. Their hair is gray now, their beards are grizzled, but their growing numbers, 500,000 in 2002, include younger faces from recent wars and represent the biggest male-bonding experience since the Grand Army of the Republic. They overflow the parking lot at the Pentagon, across the river into the District. Don't try to turn left from Constitution onto the street that leads to the Lincoln Memorial, past the Wall during that week. It's crammed with double and triple-parked Harleys.

They will invariably visit our own "Wailing Wall" - the Vietnam Memorial. Big, burly rough-looking guys dismount from Harleys, walk to the wall, find a name, and stand with their fingers touching the name, sobbing, with tears dropping onto the letters and offerings left at the wall by families and friends. They cry, hug, kiss, slap backs, go out and get plastered together, and tell war stories, and remember the dead and missing. Personally, I cry whenever I see them, and then I go and buy a Flanders poppy.

(You can find their web site at http://www.rollingthunder1.com. They also do extensive lobbying and support work for veterans and especially POW/MIA's. The VFW (www.vfw.org) is another big male-bonding group.)

I think the intense male bonding in the movie is something that resonates through a whole lot of the viewership. It's not limited to veterans, but veterans, military, and ex-military are seeing this movie in droves and are nuts about it, and not necessarily for the battles. The battles are so well-depicted that you get an idea of the horror of war. The male bonding in war is legendary and has happened in every war. My dad was in Belgium in WWII, worked with two army buddies for 10 years afterwards, then started a business with them. My brother and his wife still visit their closest friends - people from his time at Fort Dix in 1970, when those guys were flying in and out of Southeast Asia.

I think it's a tragedy that the expression of love between people, especially between men, has become so weighted with erotic overtones for many people that it's taboo. English is a limited language. We only have one word to express all kinds of love, sexual, war-bonded, spiritual. It's been so long since we've had a war with a draft that most people are not personally affected, and do not understand that level of bonding and commitment between men. (It's not limited to men, of course, or only those who actually fight in the wars. My sister-in-law's closest friends are women who supported each other while their husbands were fighting)

Your friend, by the grace of a benificent deity, will never experience what Tolkien and his contemporaries did, or crawl around in three feet of snow counting enemy like my dad did, or fly in and out of war-torn countries like my brother did. It's unfortunate, though, that his lack of experience of the phenomenon causes him to dismiss that depth of feeling as "chick flick".

~grumpy

Ariel

12-28-2003, 09:20 AM

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
I think it's a tragedy that the expression of love between people, especially between men, has become so weighted with erotic overtones for many people that it's taboo.
That is probably the most well expressed articulation of a regret I have shared that I have ever heard. Thank you.

Ariel

ainon

12-28-2003, 09:28 AM

I shouldn't be here at all :rolleyes: but I had to just quickly pop in to wish Enaiowen a Very Happy Birthday. :) :) :k

spoilerish RotK cap (http://img4.photobucket.com/albums/0603/ainon/sam3.JPG)

Grumpy ... your whole post -- wow. And thank you.

Flourish

12-28-2003, 09:49 AM

Ainon, thank you for those excerpts from the interviews about the CoD--I can't believe I missed them when they first appeared.

What an extraordinary way to direct the culmination of the Quest--leaving it up to Elijah! But then who could make a better decision about the Ringbearer's motives?

I completely agree with him, by the way. Though forcibly separated physically from the Ring, Frodo would not yet have emotionally or psychologically given it up in a mere instant after claiming it for his own, which Elijah makes so very clear in the scenes where he hangs from the edge of the drop and considers letting go. He definitely wanted it, and his anguished sense of loss when it falls is written all over his face. (Part of the reason Frodo left M-E was that he still longed for the Ring months and years on, which we see in the carriage with Bilbo in the film.)

That interview is just such an amazing vote of confidence in his young star on PJ's part.

tata bolger

12-28-2003, 10:44 AM

Elijah turned to me and he said, 'I think I want to keep it.'"

LOL, he's got corrupted! :D

About male bonding: One of quite mild cultural differences I noticed when I first came to USA is "no-touching" culture. People are very protective of their personal space in general. The scene in Rivendell when Sam takes Frodo's hand looked absolutely natural to me, and it would've looked natural even between less close people. A person you know wakes up from a coma - you shake his hand, it is a gesture of support. :confused: I'd think Europe is less hung up on this, and Asia even less. Maybe globalization is good for something? ;)

The no-touching taboo is not supposed to be so strict among friends, but I wonder sometimes maybe we simply do not know friendship anymore. Our lives are too easy, refined and self-centered. What grumpy said...

peaceweaver

12-28-2003, 12:35 PM

Wonderful commentary, folks, on the choices made by Peter Jackson and Elijah Wood. :)

It appears from some advertisements recently posted on ToRN that New Line is firmly behind Elwood as a nominee for best actor. (From their lips to Eru's ears, please....)

And ToRN has posted a poll among fans for which actor deserves an oscar for RoTK. Right now, Elijah is a distant second to Sean. Get over there!

http://www.theonering.net/index.stat

Vote early and often!

Maeglian

12-28-2003, 01:12 PM

....Just back from voting over at TORn. :)

Grumpy, thank you for that very insightful and moving post! :)

"Acceptable" male bonding - that's why soccer was invented, wasn't it? :rolleyes:

***Pounces on Blossom with a big hug!*** Wow-wow-wow! Slay me with your gifs, will you?!? Thank you!! :k

Happy birthday, Enaiowen! Are you still looking in on us?

ainon, - safe journey, and safe return! Good to know you'll have internet access this time around!
And THANK YOU for posting those interview snippets. Somehow I had missed them too....

spoilery comments to interviews till end of post
*
*
*
I really enjoyed reading PJ's and Elijah's take on Frodo and Gollum at the CoD. I totally agree with Elijah's choice, too - He does understand his role character, no surprise there! Frodo *would* try to get the Ring back.
I think they succeeded in making that final fight a bit ambiguous, too, - although I've interpreted it from the start as Frodo trying to get the Ring back. What I find kind of impressive, is the way Frodo and Gollum falls over the edge, - in a way and in a position so that it makes sense that Gollum would fall into the lava, but Frodo could manage to grab hold of the cliff. I wonder how many times Elijah and Andy had to topple into that mattress to get *that* right?

And I know I've gone on about this in several other threads, so I won't bore you for long, but still..... don't you just love how Frodo looks like he just wants to let go, to end it all, yet decides to hang on for Sam's sake - and the Ring doesn't actually *melt* till after Frodo has made that choice? I find that so utterly poignant and such a testament to "friendship triumphing over evil" (for lack of a less trite expression)

Anyway, I *did* read the Elijah-related parts of the recent Sean Astin interview at IGN. He described the difference between him and Elijah when it came to worrying over physical safety in the shoot - and said that probably the most dangerous thing Elijah ever did, was hanging over Sean's shoulders as the latter balanced up stony slopes in slippery, sweaty hobbit feet. I can't help being impressed with Elijah, even though I also think it's a bit scary that he's so willing to put himself at risk for the sake of filming.

Once we get over the total awe of RotK, I'm sure that someone will be counting Frodo's falls in RotK. There are quite a lot of them, and some really look painful, too.

Flourish

12-28-2003, 01:44 PM

Once we get over the total awe of RotK, I'm sure that someone will be counting Frodo's falls in RotK. There are quite a lot of them, and some really look painful, too.

Funny, I was just talking about that with my two daughters last night and I said that the helpless fall Frodo takes on the way up Mt. Doom--from standing more or less straight up to flat on his face on that hard dusty ground in one graceful swoon--just HAD to be a killer for Elijah to do. Don't try this at home....:eek:

tata bolger

12-28-2003, 02:07 PM

S'more on PJ, Elijah and Mt. Doom sequence: Can you imagine if Elwood would say "I want Frodo to be heroic and just push Gollum over the edge for the sake of greater good" :rolleyes: :D :D Did not happen and I couldn't help but give out a sigh of relief. God, it seems none of filmmakers kept books as sacred as we do - it is a miracle movies are so close to canon after all! Not that they do not understand characters, they obviously do! But to even suggest that it could have been filmed this way!... *shutters*

In the spirit of "Ugly fingernails" thread back from 2d age ;) I am linking to a ROTK screenshot. Did I say recently how amasing Elijah's eyes are?... Especially the left one? ;) :DLook at your own risk. (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid94/pcd26e7e2d10ae1bbe86176f2f640b6a5/fa359370.jpg.orig.jpg)

Uh, I love him nonetheless! ;)

bagendbabe

12-28-2003, 03:21 PM

Just voted at TORN - I can't believe Lij is so far behind!!! Terrible!

Blossom, your gif slays me. Thank you so much!

Tata I have noticed for a long long time that Elijah's left eye is slightly bigger than the right, and he also has a tiny, tiny squint. It is adorable. I love the fact the he is every so slightly less than perfect - he is so human and beautiful. :k ;)

Flourish

12-28-2003, 03:23 PM

Tata, your link is telling me I'm trying to access a picture "from outside Image Station"--nothing to see!:( Am I doing something wrong?

EDIT: Oh duh. I think it means that it's ME that's outside Image Station, not the picture. That would explain it.

peaceweaver

12-28-2003, 03:25 PM

Just had to drop by and give you all this courtesy of A&F. This comes from an online site called Latino Review, it is an edited excerpt (for the language, thanks Elijah ;) ) of an interview. This is EW discussing his last day of shooting pickups for ROTK:

"That was in June. Different actors were sort of spanned out over a period of time but, God, it was, it's difficult to actually articulate how we felt. I mean, me personally, I couldn't really come to terms with it. I couldn't believe it after four years, that it was all coming to an end. My last day, I was completely drained. I had knots in my stomach all day, and it came time to do my last shot, and Peter, the last shot was actually very, it was too perfect. Actually, because the last shot was one of the last scenes in the movie, where Frodo is in Bag-End before he goes to the gray haven. So there's a shot where he's writing the last bit of the book and Sam comes and says, 'It's all over,' and Frodo says 'No, there's room for a little more,' and it had this whole meaning tied into it. That's the last shot! Hearing me say the line knowing it's my last shot and also the symbolism of the scene and I'm like, 'oh ****** hell!' And everybody came on to see it, and I remember we did five or six takes, I don't know how many we did, and they checked the gate, and Peter came over to me and broke down, like gave me a hug and broke down on my shoulder. It was so, so sad--everybody was crying."

Snif...I won't be able to look at that scene the same way. :(

Alyon

12-28-2003, 07:21 PM

From Grumpy--
Your friend, by the grace of a benificent deity, will never experience what Tolkien and his contemporaries did, or crawl around in three feet of snow counting enemy like my dad did, or fly in and out of war-torn countries like my brother did. It's unfortunate, though, that his lack of experience of the phenomenon causes him to dismiss that depth of feeling as "chick flick".

Nah--I'm totally with you about male bonding. I love it and obviously it has always had a huge appeal in movies and stories---but nope you are wrong about what this guy has been through---this guy IS a Viet Nam vet and saw enough horrible action, and is now active in the peace movement. He has been through A LOT. And he was likely kind of tongue in cheek as the guy is progressive and even gay friendly, as was the other person I heard it from that day. I think it was more the hobbity angle of it. Hobbits are just prettier than most soldiers. :D I still think that gets to some guys. I think they want their bonding between grizzled men. . I do think guys are fine with male bonding. They only start backing away when the guys are pretty.:D :D Nonetheless, the criticism from both guys was minor. I just thought it interesting that hobbit bonding was worth their stating some reservations about---4 guys so far--all who are fairly progressive. I think it's the pretty factor that tips the balance. Stupid boys.

tgshaw

12-28-2003, 07:59 PM

Originally posted by peaceweaver
Snif...I won't be able to look at that scene the same way. :(
OME! Me neither! Wow-Thanks!

Happy birthday, Enaiowen! if you're reading this (and even if you aren't... well, you know what I mean :rolleyes: ).

Tata--I'll glady join in your shudders ;) :eek: -- and to learn that it was actually shot that way (with Frodo pushing Gollum in)!! For me, that's just way too close to some of the endings JRRT wrote and discarded. There are reasons he discarded them :eek: ! Long live ambiguity, I say :) :) --especially at the places Tolkien used it on purpose!

Bridget Chubb

12-28-2003, 10:45 PM

I'll never catch up here!:eek: But I had to stop by to say Hi to tgshaw:) and share this story:

I visited my extended family for Christmas, and Friday night we were playing a board game called "Hidden Identity." Basically, you get clues about a person, place, thing or time, and the less clues you need to guess it, the farther you move. So it was my team's turn, and the first clue was this:

This actor played the grown-up version of Elijah Wood's character in 1992's "Radio Flyer."

Of course I knew it, and got to move my team's piece 10 spaces.:cool: I was very, very excited.:D And (as I told my mother;) ) see, watching all those (mostly bad) Elijah Wood and Sean Astin movies did pay off!:p :D

(((Faculty)))

Now back to you regularly scheduled discussion, which I'm sure has nothing to do with "Radio Flyer.";) And Happy Birthday, Enaiowen!:)

zkgrumpy

12-28-2003, 10:46 PM

--but nope you are wrong about what this guy has been through---this guy IS a Viet Nam vet and saw enough horrible action, and is now active in the peace movement. He has been through A LOT.

I stand corrected. Apologies to you and your friend for wild and unfounded assumptions on my part. :::: bowing ::::

I also couldn't get to the gif and don't know what I'm doing wrong. :(

I've been rather annoyed about all the "geek" stuff about LotR. I've been wondering about a definition of the term "geek". I finally figured it out on Friday when I was baking some very yummy sweet potato buns (raised and everything!).

:::: ahem ::::

A geek is someone who props a cookbook open with a Java manual.

'nuff said. ;)

~grumpy

tgshaw

12-29-2003, 08:16 AM

Originally posted by zkgrumpy
A geek is someone who props a cookbook open with a Java manual.

grumpy -- :D LOL :D (and, mmmm, I can smell those sweet potato buns :) )

But, hey, I don't know anything about Java (except the kind written with a lower-case j), and I proudly consider myself a geek--just not a computer geek :) . Here's a little broader definition, as I have it on my website:

Geeks (n.): 1. People who are passionately interested in a particular subject to which normal people pay little or no attention. 2. Generally the most interesting people.
In other words, someone who knows who played the grown-up version of Elijah Wood's character in Radio Flyer ;) -- 10 spaces, woo, woo!! :p

Or someone--ahem :o --who just "squeed" over in the "Little things I liked" thread because the hobbits bow over from the waist at the coronation (which, of course, is the way any well-mannered hobbit would bow :p --none of that wimpy head-bobbing you get from the Men :rolleyes: ).

( :) I'm sure there's someone here whose sig includes the quote from Elijah that gave rise to definition 2.)

enaiowen

12-29-2003, 09:40 AM

((((((Faculty))))))

Thank you for the lovely Birthday wishes! Yes I am still here.
I was in self imposed exile from the net for several days prior to and following the opening of RotK and have spent the last couple of days trying desperately to catch up with all the posts here and in the Trilogy thread. Wow, what a gabby bunch you all are :D
I have seen the movie 5 times now and am finally able to begin to put together some coherent thoughts beyond "Oh, My Eru! But he's beautiful!" ;) :)
No time to post more at the moment as I have a plane to catch and by the time I get back to my home computer there will probably be ten more pages to catch up on at the rate ya'll are going. :o :D

Have a wonderful day all!

Enai

(ainon, check your PM's :) )

ainon

12-29-2003, 10:15 AM

These are probably worth posting in our Faculty pages. :)

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11570.jpg

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11569.jpg

Thanks for telling us about it, peaceweaver. And to know that that's Elijah's last scene ....

The single push for Elijah as Best Actor - I was just so giddy happy to see that. Again, another copy and paste from an earlier press junket:

Barrie Osborne at CHUD.com

As for the Oscar push, Osborne said, "We're all involved in a way in what we put together for the Academy. The acting end of it is primarily up to Peter, but all the technical areas, I've been active in making sure we have a profile. For me, you never want to jinx anything. I'm very proud of this film, I think it's a great film. I think I'd be shocked if we weren't nominated. I think we're a worthy film to win, but who actually wins some time is serendipitous and it depends on what's going on in the world at the time and what other things are happening that might influence the Academy."

It's terrific to know that New Line is willing to go all the way with PJ & co on this, even though it's possible they know better that the chances are slim.

Welcome back, enai and Bridget! :k Yup, Maeg, looks like I do have Net access!

edit - because I am sick enough to not let this comment pass

Originally posted by Flourish
Funny, I was just talking about that with my two daughters last night and I said that the helpless fall Frodo takes on the way up Mt. Doom--from standing more or less straight up to flat on his face on that hard dusty ground in one graceful swoon--just HAD to be a killer for Elijah to do. Don't try this at home....:eek:

It does look very, very real, doesn't it. Not at all like a stunt fall onto some pillows or something. Remember our discussing Frodo's face-first fall into the Dead Marshes, in TTT? In the cast commentary Sean Astin actually remarks to Elijah how incredible he thought it was for Elijah to have done that fall: face-first into that (can't remember the depth, but it wasn't deep 'enough') water when there could have been such a great risk of him hitting the bottom.

And Elijah, typically, didn't seem to think it was that big a deal. :p

whiteling

12-29-2003, 11:08 AM

Hi, Faculty :) !

Back from holiday I bring you a belated christmas present for you:

A brandnew German TV interview (http://www.rtl.de/videolounge/player.php?cat=14&lstart=25&video_id=3679&stream=ms_h) with Elijah Wood.

Enjoy! (His reaction on the "eyes" question is simply adorable!)

I'll need ages to catch up with this thread but I will try my best - the few goodies I've seen by now are really wonderful - A BIG THANK YOU to deluby and Blossom for your terrific gif(t)s and ainon and Hobmom for all the urgent desired screen caps :) :k :) !

And a belated Happy Birthday, enoiwen :) !

honeyelf

12-29-2003, 11:28 AM

TG, it's me! It's me! Looky my sig lign! :D

Grumpy, I just had to tell you how much I loved your post about male bonding! Exactly!

I've been trying to explain for months to certain people why I don't think Frodo and Sam were, you know, lovers, at least not in a sexual sense. I think Tolkein wrote Frodo and Sam the way he did because his intention was that we love Frodo too. A romantic relationship is exclusionary of the audience. The beautiful "lovingly interdenpendent" (thank you, Sir Ian) relationship Frodo and Sam have is meant to include us. We are meant to feel bereft yet hopeful at the Grey Havens, just as Sam does.

Yet is it is not only those two who share that kind of connection. The whole company love each other, and are all working together toward a common goal. The forces of good aren't tearing at each other from within. It is only the influence of evil that has the effect of nearly destroying Frodo, Faramir, Boromir, Pippin, etc.

Hmmmm, have to say something to make this post thread relevant. Those same certain people have been going on for years about our boy and his hobbit pals with rumors and innuendo, tearing at them from the outside, and yet they remain friends, and true to each other. I think it's simply lovely the way they greet one another with entusiastic hugs, and don't let anyone tell them how to be.

I think it some sense the way they behave with each other, and the way Frodo and Sam were together is only reacted to because our society is so unnaturally afraid of people touching each other. And that is really sad.

Oh, falling face forward. Yeah, our boy is no vain "metrosexual." I noticed those falls the first time I saw RoTK. It's as though he doesn't care one whit for his lovely face, and it only adds to the attraction for me.

Was getting my hair cut one day and picked up a copy of "Detail" magazine with Keanu Reeves on the cover. There was a little article in there about grown male nail-biters. (Didn't mention Elijah, even when his hands have been so predominantly featured in the LoTR movies.) Anyhow, the gentleman in the article talked about how, at least nail biting seemed an honest habit. Just struck me because that is how I've come to think of Elijah through his acting and his interviews. Very honest, no affectations.

One friend on another board who was priveledged to speak to him briefly at Collectermania, told how she'd seen him comforting a girl who was crying upon meeting him. He was patting her arm and say "don't cry; it's only me!" What a lovely man!

Honey! ramblingasusual:) carryonignoringme!

PS. whiteling, lovely interview! thank you!

zkgrumpy

12-29-2003, 12:07 PM

Originally posted by tata bolger
S'more on PJ, Elijah and Mt. Doom sequence: Can you imagine if Elwood would say "I want Frodo to be heroic and just push Gollum over the edge for the sake of greater good" :rolleyes: :D

Eek! I never really thought about Frodo's intentions in fighting Gollum for the Ring, or how significant that sequence is. Like Samwise, I've always been paralyzed by the speed at which things happen on that page. If I thought anything, once Gollum bit off Frodo's finger (poor baby), Frodo was incapacitated. When he appeared, he was kneeling on the edge, doubled over in pain (IIRC). Gollum had no intention of giving up the Ring, and did himself and the Ring in by dancing around on the edge.

Had Frodo been able to hang onto the Ring, I doubt if he'd been able to throw it in, giving Samwise the nasty choice of letting him escape (in which case he probably would have died anyway before he got to the bottom of the mountain), or pushing him and the Ring over the edge.

In the book, at the beginning, Gandalf tells Frodo that the Ring will not let itself be destroyed. Every time Frodo tried to throw it away, it ended up in his pocket.

Gandalf hinted at power(s) greater than Sauron at work, when he said that Frodo was meant to have the ring. Whatever power(s) were overseeing the whole thing had to provide a backup plan in the form of Gollum, and Frodo's pity for Gollum, to ensure the Ring's destruction. (backup plan? :eek: Now is that geekish or what!?! ;) )

In the spirit of "Ugly fingernails" thread back from 2d age ;) I am linking to a ROTK screenshot. Did I say recently how amasing Elijah's eyes are?... Especially the left one? ;)

I wasn't around for the thread, being the damp pink fuzzy-wuzzy newbie that I am ;), but...

Fingernails: I watched Huck Finn again last night. (Ok, Ok, I'm obsessed! I appear to be in good company! :p ) <Deity>, he was a cutie!!! I tried to notice Elijah's fingernails, which was hard because it looked like they were avoiding showing them. I got a few glimpses, and I do believe he was biting them even back then. I can relate - I bit mine as badly.

Face: Yes, it's slightly asymmetrical and his right (I think) eyelid droops a little further than the left. I noticed it especially on the cover of Ash Wednesday. Hold your hand over one side, and you see a soft, sweet, immature kid desperately trying to grow up. Hold it over the other side and it's someone you would *not* want to meet in an alley.

Good directors and photography guys take advantage of asymmetry like that to emphasize emotion. There was an episode of Highlander where they emphasized the star's asymmetrical face - one side grieving, the other side hard and pitiless, with a tear rolling down. My sister has a WWI poster of a nurse (by Foringer) and one side of her face is in shadow, with an expression of tenderness and sadness, the other has an expression of strength. Here's a link:
http://www.snapshotsofthepast.com/thegreatestmotherredcrosswwiiwarposter.html

Elijah's face is so heartbreakingly beautiful that without the little imperfections, it would lack character and be just another improbably beautiful face in a Hollywood sea of beautiful faces. :rolleyes: I suspect PJ and crew saw past the perfection to the expressiveness and asymmetry and realized that they could do great things with that material.

Uh, I love him nonetheless! ;)

What she said. ;)

BTW is it an effort (deliberate or not) on Elijah's part that he wears his hair so goofy and acts so goofy (and potty-mouthed) sometimes to draw attention away from his unbelievable looks?

~grumpy

tgshaw

12-29-2003, 03:32 PM

Oooohhh, more "dangerous debate territory" with the "what if's" at the Cracks of Doom--Tolkien even got into the speculation in his letters (of course, objective Middle-earth historian that he was ;) , he would never say what would have happened in certain situations, just what might have happened, including Frodo jumping in with the Ring when he realizes he can't let go of it (not as suicide, but for the greater good, like a soldier throwing himself onto a grenade). In the book, as Tolkien said, it becomes a moot point because of Gollum (and there are a number of different "takes" on why Gollum ends up going over the edge--a few of which Tolkien hints at the possibility of in the text, without picking one). And, yes, in the book Frodo's incapacitated; Sam even has to carry him out of the Sammath Naur. But in the movies Frodo has fought Gollum often enough over the Ring that I'd think most people would just assume that's what was happening at the CoD--I did, anyway; so Elijah was probably right about his character when he said, "I think I want to keep it." :p BTW, I've read two interviews where he's been asked if he'd give the "One Ring" PJ gave him to a future wife--the first time, he said no because, FGS, it's pure evil! The second time, probably a year or so later, he said no because he's hiding it where no one can find it and take it away from him! :D :D Character development, perhaps?? :p

And, yes, one of the major complaints of a lot of Tolkienites is that the movies didn't emphasize as much as the book did that it was Bilbo's and Frodo's pity toward Gollum (and, in the book, eventually Sam's) that allowed the task to be completed. The same things happen (except for Sam refusing to kill him on the slopes of Mount Doom when he had a chance), but they're not commented on as they are in the book.

Hmmm.... back-up plan?? If I tried to get into that, you'd be treated to another of my expositions on Tolkien's use of free will, God's existence as eternal rather than everlasting and how that affects the operation of providence, and, well, let's just say we don't want to go there in this thread :rolleyes: . (Elijah being as intelligent and as interested in philosophy as he seems to be, it could interesting to discuss it all with him, though ;) .)

-------------

Interesting thought about nail-biting being an honest habit: you certainly can't hide it! In Forever Young, which Elijah made at about the same age as Huck Finn, he's definitely already biting his nails. I won't say what happens in the climactic scene, in case someone hasn't seen the movie yet, but there are close-ups of Nat's hands (hmmm... his left one, at least) and the nails are down to the quick. I figure it's because of all that unnoticed "Nat angst" Mariole uncovered in her investigation of the movie... poor kid :( ;) .

Prim

12-29-2003, 04:09 PM

Ainon: yup, Viola and I have seen the film so we are spoiler immune now. :) Don't know about estella rose though so perhaps we should still give warnings???

NOT REALLY SPOILER STUFF (but don't read if you are being uber careful...)FOLLOWS

from erendis Elijah will not be recognized because the Powers That Be don't know that he's acting. It doesn't even register as acting. It's just there.

I am convinced that awards and recognition do not go to the best acting, but to the most acting. If that makes any sense. If an actor completely disappears into a part, it's taken for granted. But if an actor oozes Industrial Strength Angst, and makes damn well certain that everybody knows that he's pretending to angst out, well -- O my! Accolades galore!!

I think you're right erendis. The first time I saw the film I was not specifically impressed with EW's acting: it did not stand out. This was not because he did poorly but because he simply "was" the part and as a viewer I ended up taking him as Frodo for granted. Astin was much more noticeable because , as you say he throws around industrial strength angst. Which he does very well I might add. I am very much not an Astin fan but have been impressed with this last performance of his, particularly his line "don't you let go".

But I think part of the reason Astin's Sam is getting all the praise rather than EW's Frodo is not simply that they have different acting styles- which they clearly do- and Astin's is more tangible, especially on first viewing, but that their roles are very different and require quite different handling.

Sam (and thus Astin) can afford to externalise his emotions, weep, throw hissy fits etc. He is not crushed by the Ring. Frodo on the other hand, and I believe this is how EW plays him, is almost completely absorbed in the task of psychic survival. On top of that he has to struggle harder than Sam simply to physically go on. This has always, to me, accounted for the switch in POV in the last book. (Sorry- I know we've thrashed the POV thing in the past but I think it bears a quick repeat). This internal struggle dominates Frodo and EW seems to me to play the character that way. Everything that Frodo feels is filtered through this deadly internal battle.

So he's not going to do a big drama queen act: he literally hasn't got the energy to do so. Thank god...I just had a hideous vision of Frodo waving his arms around and wringing his hands a la Shakespearean actor style...shudder :eek:This results in a more more subdued acting style, though the angst if anything is deeper than Sam's. Its just not so visually acessible to the viewer.

edit: err, what exactly does this mean???:confused:We have seen it so many times that it has its own name: I am Sam's Beautiful Left Foot syndrome, a.k.a. Oscar-Bait.

shilohmm

12-29-2003, 04:36 PM

Happybelated Birthday, enaiowen!

(KD hates me today, and won't let me color the whole phrase. :confused: )

I made you some grasshopper cheesecake bars! :) Just as well I was out of cocoa powder on Christmas day after all. :p

originally posted by Bridget Chubb
This actor played the grown-up version of Elijah Wood's character in 1992's "Radio Flyer."

If I were playing that game, I could see the guy most clearly in my head but wouldn't be able to think of his name. "Oh, yeah, the guy from, uh, he was in that, uh, movie about the moon shot that didn't work - Thirteen something, um, Apollo Thirteen, you know, uh, him."

Make a note; don't pick Sheryl for your team in Trivia contests. :p

Originally posted by zkgrumpy

BTW is it an effort (deliberate or not) on Elijah's part that he wears his hair so goofy and acts so goofy (and potty-mouthed) sometimes to draw attention away from his unbelievable looks?

Not being a mind-reader, I can't say - but that's been suggested before and seems as good a theory as any. ;)

originally posted by tgshaw
BTW, I've read two interviews where he's been asked if he'd give the "One Ring" PJ gave him to a future wife--the first time, he said no because, FGS, it's pure evil! The second time, probably a year or so later, he said no because he's hiding it where no one can find it and take it away from him! Character development, perhaps??

I want to see some of the interviews you've been reading. Don't recall running across those two. :p I am really enjoying the interviews on the FilmForce site ainon linked to - I so hope this same guy interviewed Elijah after ROTK!

originally posted by tgshaw
Interesting thought about nail-biting being an honest habit: you certainly can't hide it!

I was going to say you can't hide smoking, either, but of course on film you *can*. :p But, boy, in real life you can't, unless you hang out with people who have no sense of smell. Then again, I did have a friend who claimed her husband only smoked at home while in his underwear, since he didn't want anyone to know he had that habit - but I bet his clothes picked up the scent and he got nowhere (we were living in different states during that marriage, so I never met the guy). Maybe he blamed someone else - the kids from across the street don't smoke, but still carry cigarette stink.

Sheryl

erendis

12-29-2003, 04:43 PM

Sorry Prim, it's American Oscar slang. The syndrome name is a combination of the movie titles, I Am Sam, My Left Foot, A Beautiful Mind. There are some variations too. Sometimes you'll see a Piano in there for The Piano and The Pianist. All of these movies are deliberate Oscar bait (the pianos and the foot won), so the name reflects that the actor is trying to copy the type of acting that the Academy wants. Annoying, actually.

Maeglian

12-29-2003, 05:46 PM

ainon, thank you for those great FYC ads!
But of course: The one I more than any other would like to see, -and New Line *must* have made it?!? [Begs and pleads]; - Is the separate "FYC Elijah Wood - best actor" one.

Let's HOPE that one surfaces too, -and soon! :cool:

Whiteling, I can't get the interview to play.... What does he say about "eyes"?

From Grumpy
Face: Yes, it's slightly asymmetrical [ ]. I noticed it especially on the cover of Ash Wednesday. Hold your hand over one side, and you see a soft, sweet, immature kid desperately trying to grow up. Hold it over the other side and it's someone you would *not* want to meet in an alley. Good directors and photography guys take advantage of asymmetry like that to emphasize emotion. I believe the ultimate and classical Elijah Wood picture in this respect is the famous Pierre Vinet Frodo "Black-and-white" one. Hold your hand over one side and you see the most angelic and innocent features. While the other side, now, is definitely very *far* from angelic:

Black&White (http://maggiebear.crosswinds.net/fellowship01/lotr006.jpg)

Spoilers
*
*
*

From Prim
So he's not going to do a big drama queen act: he literally hasn't got the energy to do so. Yes! And they even *show* that in the film....! Frodo tries to get into the drama and fight over the lembas disappearance, and immediately falls back, totally exhausted. He just doesn't have the energy for that kind of drama, conflict and handling Sam's and Gollums infighting, - that is part of why I find Movie!Frodo sending Sam away so completely plausible; - the fact that the constant and ramped-up Gollum/Sam bickering and fighting is draining mental resources Frodo simply doesn't have to spare, because he sorely needs them all to fight the Ring.

End spoilers

This actor played the grown-up version of Elijah Wood's character in 1992's "Radio Flyer." So here we have it: The proof that I'm no geek, after all. I don't know the answer, - although I would perhaps guess Tom Hanks from Sheryl's hint? But then again, it's not for lack of trying! I've looked around for Radio Flyer - but it's not on video *or* DVD in zone 2, nor has been these last few years. So I've never seen it.

Sheryl, I really have to rush off before I make some uncalled-for and utterly improper remark concerning your friend's husband's smoking habit! :o :D :rolleyes:

shilohmm

12-29-2003, 07:10 PM

Wasn't it here that someone observed that three of the hobbit lads had played the Artful Dodger in Oliver Twist? Andy Serkis played Bill Sykes!

Sheryl

tgshaw

12-29-2003, 07:16 PM

Originally posted by Maeglian
Whiteling, I can't get the interview to play.... What does he say about "eyes"?
Me, too... please? Probably the fault of my prehistoric dialup connection. :(

I believe the ultimate and classical Elijah Wood picture in this respect is the famous Pierre Vinet Frodo "Black-and-white" one. Hold your hand over one side and you see the most angelic and innocent features. While the other side, now, is definitely very *far* from angelic:
Oh, my--that's a big one! Couldn't fit the whole picture on my monitor screen, but that let me study the face without being distracted by the hair or the neck :) . I've loved all of Vinet's photos--both black and white and color. Looking at the two sides of this one, he certainly knew which side to put in shadow, didn't he?

Spoilers
*
*
*

Yes! And they even *show* that in the film....! Frodo tries to get into the drama and fight over the lembas disappearance, and immediately falls back, totally exhausted. He just doesn't have the energy for that kind of drama, conflict and handling Sam's and Gollums infighting, - that is part of why I find Movie!Frodo sending Sam away so completely plausible; - the fact that the constant and ramped-up Gollum/Sam bickering and fighting is draining mental resources Frodo simply doesn't have to spare, because he sorely needs them all to fight the Ring.
Yes! And also Yes! to Prim's remarks on the same subject! I just wrote a "dissertation" :o on that topic over in the Trilogy forum, in the "Grey Havens" thread--the chain digging into Frodo's neck in the movie is a wonderful visual, but it seems to have distracted some viewers from the fact that the physical weight of the Ring was the least of Frodo's burdens.

As I say at every available opportunity :p , the reason I was so happy to hear that Elijah was going to play Frodo was because he has such a gift for showing what's going on inside a character without saying a word--an absolute necessity, IMO, for Frodo. But, also like Frodo, what Elijah does in his acting as Frodo is easy to overlook in favor of "flashier" roles. Not that Elijah can't play more outward-directed characters wonderfully--IMHO Stu's the best of those--but he's just so damn good at playing the more interior ones!

IMVHO, one reason Elijah can "disappear" into his characters the way he does is that he completely serves the character instead of drawing attention to himself or his acting. So maybe it's not too surprising that when he's playing a character whom a lot of people overlooked, the same thing would happen with his acting.

End spoilers

Originally posted by erendis
...The syndrome name is a combination of the movie titles, I Am Sam, My Left Foot, A Beautiful Mind. There are some variations too. Sometimes you'll see a Piano in there for The Piano and The Pianist. All of these movies are deliberate Oscar bait (the pianos and the foot won)...
...so did the "Beautiful" part--as a movie, anyway. Forever to be in my memory as "the movie that won best picture instead of FotR."

It's ironic in a way--if these were movies "based [however bogusly] on a true story," the Academy would eat it up! They love people striving against huge odds, etc. I wouldn't be surprised to see Elijah for best actor and Sean for best supporting actor! But, y'know, these characters aren't "real". Even worse, it has the label of fantasy on it :eek: ! Of course, LotR was around before the fantasy label was--they had to slap the label on later. It's still true that no major Academy Award has ever gone to a fantasy movie or one of its actors--they're just glorified "action movies" y'know :rolleyes: . If a movie with as much human content as RotK can't shake that thinking, I don't know what can. Geez, guys, don't you want to make history?

Sheryl--IIRC, the remark about hiding the ring so no one could take it from him was in the "backstage" Wetten dass [sp?] interview. I don't remember where the earlier one was from.

And--just saw your latest post--I was the one who mentioned the "Artful Dodger connection." I just happened to notice it because I read Dom's and then Billy's interviews one right after the other--at the IGN (I think that's what it's called??) link ainon posted. But D&B played him in school productions, not on-screen.

stormyday

12-29-2003, 07:32 PM

Well, TG, there's always a lot to agree with in one of your posts, but I must resoundingly agree with point about 'fantasy'.

Hello? These movies are not just 'fantasy'...because fantasy didn't even exist until Tolkien wrote LOTR. That's like calling Gone With the Wind JUST another 'historical romance'. :mad: :p :eek:

Hobmom

12-29-2003, 10:44 PM

Yes! He won something!!! Today, in Berlin. The Bravo Otto Award.

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Lij%20-%20German%20Interview/elijah_03otto_01.jpg

More adorable pics of Happy Lij and his award HERE (http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Lij%20-%20German%20Interview/?multi=6)

Do any of our European ladies know what this award is?

Bridget Chubb

12-29-2003, 10:50 PM

Happy Lij and his award...and the CTJ.:p

That picture is awesome.:D

naiad

12-30-2003, 02:52 AM

Re: so Elijah was probably right about his character when he said, "I think I want to keep it." Not sure I agree, Tg. Book Frodo never 'wanted' to keep the ring, even at the end, which is why Tolkien so carefully selected the proper words for Frodo's announcement at the Crack, (per letter # ?). At the moment of that announcement, the ring finally possesses Frodo's mind and his will.

Moreover, despite Elijah's expressed opinion on the matter, he does not seem to have played Frodo's last act with the intended purpose of retaining the ring. Both times I watched, Frodo's face shows resolve (same as when he decided to leave the company and take to the river alone), not crazed lust such as when the ring was manipulating his mind. The resolve could be to fight Gollum and fulfill his responsibility or to fight him and keep the ring. At the instant of resolve, he need not know which end he will pursue - only that he must, at all cost to himself attempt to regain the ring from Gollum. The audience/reader is left the issue to resolve for themselves, quite as in the book.

...Which leads to another topic, mentioned on these threads before. Elijah (and PJ) tend to speak of Frodo's journey toward ultimate corruption. Book Frodo is not corrupted so much as destroyed, imo. Fortunately, and surprisingly, in light of the actor/director comments, film Frodo also seems depleted rather than morally ruined.

Elijah now.... is another matter... ;). The Frodo that many of us know and love would have been capable of throwing himself along with the ring into the abyss along (as Tolkien suggests). But I'm not sure Elijah saw his character that way in the end. It seems, by his most recent comments, that during the last days of his Frodo impersonation, Elijah came to battle Frodo nearly as much as he battled Gollum. Frodo is neither his hero nor his favorite character, according to his quoted words. Yet I wonder.... maybe Frodo is so intrinsically woven with Elijah that he needs separate the two any way he can when he's before the public gaze.

These are just my views - I'm sure there are others :)

shadowcatshadow

12-30-2003, 03:26 AM

how about falling out of his bedroom window in "The Faculty." What girl wouldn'tlaugh her head off at a man who sometimes doesn't watch where he's going, despite the fact he seems light on his feet. :D

whiteling

12-30-2003, 08:19 AM

Originally posted by Maeglian
Whiteling, I can't get the interview to play....

Oops, I don't know why it doesn't work... maybe you are more lucky with

Interview (Real player ISDN) (http://www.rtl.de/videolounge/player.php?cat=14&video_id=3679&lstart=25&stream=rv_l)
Interview (Real player DSL) (http://www.rtl.de/videolounge/player.php?cat=14&video_id=3679&lstart=25&stream=rv_h)
Interview (Windows media ISDN) (http://www.rtl.de/videolounge/player.php?cat=14&video_id=3679&lstart=25&stream=ms_l)
Interview (Windows media DSL) (http://www.rtl.de/videolounge/player.php?cat=14&video_id=3679&lstart=25&stream=ms_h)

Good luck!

In case the interview remains invisible -
Elijah is interviewed by a woman (:)) and I think the questions were very interesting.

The interviewer:"I was really impressed by your facial expression, by the sadness of your eyes and the desperation." - [Elijah smiles flattered] "Thank you!" - Interviewer: "How have you managed to have this look in your eyes? What were you thinking to make your eyes this sad and desperate?" [E. is pleasently surprised and obviously delighted about this remark "Wow! -
Ahem, I don't know, it's been so long! [Laughs and I'd say it sounds to me that he smokes to much :( !] I don't know... I think it was simply understanding what the ring was doing to him, feeling that burden, that he's undergoing."
And then he describes that he wasn't very much "thinking" something special but he tried to "articulate" the character.

Hobmom - :k for that cute pic! The BRAVO Otto is a reader award - once a year readers can vote for their favourites (one category is film the other category is music) - so this award comes directly out of the core of the young fan-base!
(BRAVO is a legendary German magazin for teenagers, it exists for over 40 years now and it's rather renowned).

This year's competitors were
Daniel Radcliffe
Elijah Wood
Eminem
Jim Carrey
Johnny Depp
Keanu Reeves
Matthias Schweighöfer
Orlando Bloom
Tom Felton
Viggo Mortensen
Will Smith

Woo-Hoo, our boy did it :) !

Naiad, fascinating thoughts on Frodo/Elijah. Must think about it...

Maeglian

12-30-2003, 08:50 AM

Wow - the pictures from that interview! Hobmom - thank you!

Would you look at this: My most beloved poster and my favourite actor, and the CTJ, and two of the most flattering Camera Angels, (Tm Erendis) all in one single photo!

Would someone **please** revive me in a little while when I'm done feeling this faint?

http://img7.photobucket.com/albums/v18/Hobbsy/Lij%20-%20German%20Interview/73.jpg

Whiteling, I still can't access, so thank you for transcribing. :)

And Elijah won a voter's choice over Orlando and viggo? :eek: What's happening to the world?

And as for what Frodo was up to attacking Gollum after Gollum's gotten hold of the Ring, and Elijah's interpretation, I've noted a couple of things:

- The final Gollum/Frodo fight seems to mirror the Smeagol/Deagol fight. I would think that's not coincidental.

- Elijah often seems unable, or unwilling, to verbalize all the nuances of what he was actually acting out. I do think though, he's right that Frodo would not have been able to destroy the Ring if he'd managed to get it back from Gollum. I also think that Frodo's goal as he attacked Gollum didn't go much further than somehow, some way, just getting hold of the Ring, with not many clear thoughts at that point as to why; yet the ambiguity in the scene is certainly there, and the whole thing very much the richer for it. :)

ainon

12-30-2003, 10:12 AM

Whiteling, welcome back! Thanks for the text of the interview. :k There was no way I'd get to see the interview on a 56K modem connection!

Maeg and Hobmom - great pics. Thanks, Whiteling, for explaining what the award is. Meanwhile, I'm definitely very fascinated by the pic Maeg has posted. Very, very, very fascinated. As for the 'FYC Elijah Wood - Best Actor' ad, since we're certain that New Line is pushing him, his ads should appear any day now. That's a given. But if we want to have fun playing pretend/wishful thinking/remain stoically optimistic, we could start guessing which Oscar-screener Frodo scene will be played at the award ceremony. :p :D

Great to see you again, Prim. And great to know that you & Viola have seen the movie. :cool:

Sheryl, in the cast commentary there's a pretty amusing bit where Sean Astin (barely hiding his annoyance, I thought :p ) recounts how Elijah's smoking brings back memories of him (SA) and his mom ... it has to be heard to be believed, really. :D :D

A compilation of cast interviews can be found here:
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/advance/15_interview.html

We get Sean Astin describing the shooting of that particular 'falling' scene that Flourish was talking about.

It was ... [on the] plains and in slow motion, and Elijah's got to fall down, and so there was a lot of falling and getting up and falling and getting up ... and slow-motion turning and looking at the wind.

tgshaw

12-30-2003, 10:25 AM

Edit: Simulposted with ainon--I'll have to go take a look at those interviews--thanks. :) why I'm spending my extra time off work this week on-line, instead of cleaning my apartment, working on my taxes... :confused: :p ]

Originally posted by Maeglian
Wow - the pictures from that interview! Hobmom - thank you!

Would you look at this: My most beloved poster and my favourite actor, and the CTJ, and two of the most flattering Camera Angels, (Tm Erendis) all in one single photo!
Yes, thanks for those pictures, Hobmom--and Maeg, I think you picked the best of them all (my suspicions are increasing that he has a closet full of CTJ's--I may have to start counting buttons or looking for imperfections to track :p ).

But, my, what a portfolio! How could anyone look at those and not think he's leading man material (well, okay, except for the ones where he's hugging the statue :rolleyes: )? He certainly looks all growed up. -- It's quite a nice experience to set the slideshow interval at 8 or 9 and just let it play through :) . I hope I eventually get that interview to download, because I'd love to know what he's saying in some of those pictures.

RotK Book/Movie Spoilers

- Elijah often seems unable, or unwilling, to verbalize all the nuances of what he was actually acting out. I do think though, he's right that Frodo would not have been able to destroy the Ring if he'd managed to get it back from Gollum. I also think that Frodo's goal as he attacked Gollum didn't go much further than somehow, some way, just getting hold of the Ring, with not many clear thoughts at that point as to why; yet the ambiguity in the scene is certainly there, and the whole thing very much the richer for it. :)
Ditto to all of this. Tolkien says that Frodo probably wouldn't remember much of what happened while he was completely under the Ring's power. What would be driving anything Frodo does physically (including facial expressions, I'd think) is what the Ring wants, so IMHO saying, "I think I want to keep it," at that point wouldn't be speaking for Frodo's will; at that moment, for all intents and purposes, Frodo's will doesn't exist so he can't "want" anything. Guess you could say that, mentally and emotionally, for that brief period of time Elijah's actually playing the Ring--spooky Isildur-parallel smile and all. When you get the more mixed, ambiguous emotions could be when Frodo's fighting for a comeback, as he is in the TTT scene where he has Sting at Sam's throat.

In that regard, since the movie allows him a little more time than the book does, one of Tolkien's speculated "what if's" could come into play--that if Gollum hadn't taken the Ring immediately, Frodo might have been able to come back from that momentary total loss of self--enough to, say, throw himself into the fire with it. But when the Ring has his will totally overwhelmed--when he says, "The Ring is mine," that would have been impossible. I think in the movie we get a little of that comeback, while Frodo's hanging over the edge. As some people have pointed out, it seems that Frodo really does have to "let go of the Ring" before he can grasp Sam's hand--even though he's not physically holding it.

But, yes, yes, very ambiguous and open to different interpretations, which is exactly how it should be, IMVHO, for that scene above all others.

End RotK Spoilers

Ditto, also, to what Maeg says about Elijah's ability to verbalize what he was acting out. I think we've talked about this before in regard to those times when he shows complex mixes of emotions (which he definitely does in this scene!). IIRC, the one time most discussed along those lines was when he says, "They're here," in Osgiliath--with all the emotions going on there all at once, IMVHO it would be impossible for him to be putting it all together consciously. I think that's where his character-centered acting comes into play at its best. At those times, although the character would certainly be feeling, he wouldn't be able to precisely explain the nuances of exactly what he was feeling ["Well, Frodo, could you tell our studio audience just how you felt when you knew Gandalf was going to fall into the chasm?"]. So, by asking "How would Frodo respond here?" instead of, "How do I show here?" he's able to tap into that complexity without having to purposefully analyze it. I can't even imagine having to factor in how much the Ring's will is in control and how much Frodo's will is in control--especially since that's fluid! (The Sting at Sam's throat scene again--with the two wills fighting each other and the upper hand going back and forth.)

I think the bit whiteling posted from the German interview (thanks!) supports all of that speculation about his acting method--as have other things he's said about his characters, even as far back as [i]Radio Flyer.

Maeglian

12-30-2003, 02:07 PM

But if we want to have fun playing pretend/wishful thinking/remain stoically optimistic, we could start guessing which Oscar-screener Frodo scene will be played at the award ceremony. I'm way ahead of you! :o :D Last time I saw the film, I was thinking with that very purpose in mind: "This one, oh no- this one...." as the scenes rolled through me. But there really is only one. One that I so want them to show. And that has to do with "seeing the Shire", and then realizing that Sam's breaking down, and sitting up to comfort him. I love that scene! And the acting! And the way he looks!

But they couldn't show that, I suppose, as it'd give away the plot too much... :(

A question about art references: There are 2 times that some "art memory" or -reference strongly tickles my mind, but I can't quite recall what I'm being reminded of. One is when Gollum is in front of Frodo, with his hand "comfortingly" on his shoulder, as Frodo is lifting his head to look at him while lying exhaustedly on his stomack after having scaled the Stairs.

And the other is Gollum, staring a little crazed out over the landscape, hair streaming on the wind, just as he plans to throw away the lembas.

Any ideas about paintings these two might resemble? I'll try and hunt myself, when I have time.

Goldenberry

12-30-2003, 02:21 PM

Reads whiteling's posts about German TV interview and Bravo Otto award. Thinks back to Wetten dass, German female reporter's marriage proposal , the Franka affair, etc.

That does it. I'm moving to Germany, where women, men and teens can all recognize and appreciate talent.:D

Prim

12-30-2003, 04:15 PM

This is a spoilery post!!!

But I'm not sure Elijah saw his character that way in the end. It seems, by his most recent comments, that during the last days of his Frodo impersonation, Elijah came to battle Frodo nearly as much as he battled Gollum. Frodo is neither his hero nor his favorite character, according to his quoted words.

This is a very tantalising and intriguing comment, Naiad. Can you explain a little more??

I like the ambiguity of the book and film scene in CoD too. A lot of how you interpret it depends on how you initially interpret the Ring. Again both book and film allow a lot of leeway and I agree with tg that this is certainly intentional on Tolkein's part. Cool. :)

I must say that EW's Dark Lord look is very very sinister. I would love to see it aloingside his goodbye smile at the havens. Two complete opposites: but no over the top drama queen acting. Very cool.
While I'm on the subject of that final smile I must say I was really really really uncomfortable with it on first viewing and felt like looking away. :confused: What a strange reaction, even considering I was tired. But I just loved it second time around. Which makes me suspect that it is so heartbreakingly honest and direct that it made me squirm and almost feel ill, like an ache. It felt like looking at Frodo naked (metaphorically). I suspect that a lot of guys would have that same squirm reaction. Sometimes when things cut too close to the bone its easier to look away.

It's a gorgeous moment on film and I wander how hard it was to shoot? Who shot the Havens does anyone know? Jackson or Walsh?? It had a Walsh feel to me though I've been wrong before..:rolleyes:

Sheryl, in the cast commentary there's a pretty amusing bit where Sean Astin (barely hiding his annoyance, I thought ) recounts how Elijah's smoking brings back memories of him (SA) and his mom ... it has to be heard to be believed, really.
Hmmm. If I had been in the room with them I would have been severely tempted to clip Astin over the ears. I too thought Astin was annoyed and worse I think he was giving EW a telling off in the form of teasing humour- passive/aggressive style. Not appropriate for a film commentary I thought: too public. (And it went on for so long it was frustrating...they could have been talking about the film dammit!!!!!). But I must say EW took it all very meekly and without offence. He is clearly a much nicer person than I.:rolleyes: This may well explain why I don't have a fan club for me. :D

mel headstrong

12-30-2003, 05:42 PM

This should go in the Trilogy forum, and I know that, but I haven't worked my way through all the threads to find the appropriate discussion, and tg mentioned it here, and, well, sorry, mods, I'll take out the garbage and clean the toilets for the next week, I swear...

Spoiler ban's lifted, so no spoiler tags...

Originally posted by tgshaw
And, yes, one of the major complaints of a lot of Tolkienites is that the movies didn't emphasize as much as the book did that it was Bilbo's and Frodo's pity toward Gollum (and, in the book, eventually Sam's) that allowed the task to be completed. The same things happen (except for Sam refusing to kill him on the slopes of Mount Doom when he had a chance), but they're not commented on as they are in the book.
There's one scene that isn't in the book: where Frodo and Gollum fight after Frodo leaves Shelob's lair. I've been thinking about that scene, and how Frodo almost strangles Gollum and then stops. And it seems that we get a flash of compassion from movie!Frodo that we don't get from book!Frodo (because it's Sam, not Frodo, who fights Gollum there in the book). And I, at least, don't need to hear Frodo forgive Gollum in the end, because he already forgave Gollum for the Shelob thing (obviously Frodo hadn't been stung yet, but Gollum's treachery was clear at that point). The contrast between that scene with the scene at the beginning where Smeagol strangles Deagol sends the message to me quite clearly: Gollum is alive to fall into the Cracks of Doom because of Frodo's pity and compassion.

Also, I don't think the forgiveness line would work in the movie, given than Gollum went over the edge while fighting Frodo, not while dancing alone on the edge...

Ok, gotta go find where I really should have put this comment...

Oh, and the acting is just excellent. Have I said that yet?

Mel

naiad

12-30-2003, 06:20 PM

Hi Prim - Well, Elijah has said his favorite character was Gollum (at least the character he'd most like to play at the time of the interview question back during FOTR filming). He's also said he sees Sam as the real hero.

Whiteling - So many thanks for the German interview and links to it! One of the most fascinating incites gained from that was Elijah's answer to the invasive question about what was he thinking about when he looked so sad and wretched. I loved that his undertandably halting answer implied that he did not think about a particular event in his life as actors often admit to doing. Instead, he spoke of 'undertanding someone' [his character, Frodo]. This suggestion that he completely took on Frodo's thought and emotion rather than substituting his own in order to render the desired affect, really blows me away. (Whiteling quotes a related part of the interview in her post above. )

From Tgshaw ... yes, very ambiguous and open to different interpretations, which is exactly how it should be, IMVHO, for that scene above all others. Totally agree!!

Maeglian - Thanks :k: for the gorgeous photo! You say - Elijah often seems unable, or unwilling, to verbalize all the nuances of what he was actually acting out. I love this, that there should always be the 'unspeakable.'
Also, is the Merlin passage in your sig from the movie 'Excalibur'? I never saw it, enamored as I was with Mary Stewart's Crystal Cave series which is basically a fictional Merlin bio. Speaking of which, as someone suggested in the earliest Harem thread, EW would make an awesome youthful Merlin (maybe even an awesome elderly one!) if they should ever film those books, which I don't understand why BBC hasn't (Merlin is terribly HOT in them).

...About the unparalleled beauty and expressiveness of his eyes, even when closed... does it come from the graceful dip and curve of the lids, or their hooded light...?

tgshaw

12-30-2003, 09:38 PM

Originally posted by Prim
I must say that EW's Dark Lord look is very very sinister. I would love to see it aloingside his goodbye smile at the havens. Two complete opposites: but no over the top drama queen acting. Very cool.
I'd like to see it alongside Isildur's little smile when he says, "No," in the Prologue. I was expecting a parallel there, so maybe I made it closer in my mind than it is, but I do think they're similar.

While I'm on the subject of that final smile I must say I was really really really uncomfortable with it on first viewing and felt like looking away. :confused: What a strange reaction, even considering I was tired. But I just loved it second time around. Which makes me suspect that it is so heartbreakingly honest and direct that it made me squirm and almost feel ill, like an ache. It felt like looking at Frodo naked (metaphorically).
Glad you said that, Prim, because I was uncomfortable, too, and couldn't understand why. Your "theory" makes sense to me. It's an extremely intimate shot. Something that vaguely caught my eye on second viewing that I specifically watched for on the third (or maybe the third and the fourth :confused: ) is that he's looking directly into the camera which, of course, makes it seem as if he's looking directly at the audience (another place that's used is Frodo's turn toward the camera after Moria).

And my eyes may be playing tricks on me, but I'd swear that at the end, when he gives that almost imperceptible nod, he's not only looking at the camera--he's not directing his gaze to the spot where I'd think his friends would be standing. His head is turned partially to the side, so his eyes are shifted to look at the camera--it's a weird effect, almost as if he's looking at the audience and no one else :eek: . I think it's reinforced by the fact that we don't see anything other than Frodo in that shot--we don't know if the ship is still close enough to shore that anyone there would even see the smile and the nod, especially since the nod is so subtle you almost have to be seeing it in close-up to even catch it.

But rather than breaking through the "fourth wall" and losing the suspension of disbelief, as you'd expect a move like that to do, it feels more to me as if it's going the other direction and I'm getting pulled into the reality I see on-screen. Does this make any sense at all? It's not a little "wink" from Elijah Wood saying, "We know this is all fake, don't we?" It's Frodo saying good-bye: to me. [*sob*] How does he do that?

mel--I agree with what you said about the "forgiveness" idea, especially about that added scene after Frodo escapes from Shelob. When I said "many Tolkienites," I wasn't including myself :p .

Ariel

12-30-2003, 10:27 PM

Originally posted by naiad
Hi Prim - Well, Elijah has said his favorite character was Gollum (at least the character he'd most like to play at the time of the interview question back during FOTR filming). He's also said he sees Sam as the real hero.
I've read the first part of this too. And as for the second :rolleyes: - well I know the real truth, ;). Though the comment does make part of me want to smack the boy for not reading the book first, but the other part thinks it is accurate that Frodo would think that, even if those who knew and loved him best knew otherwise. ;)

Ariel

naiad

12-30-2003, 10:54 PM

Mel - Interesting comments on foregiveness in the movie. I think I agree with your interpretation.

Re: The parting smile - I felt drawn in by it too, both viewings, but in a way where I identified with the hobbits on shore (as if I were no longer me, a mere audience member).

honeyelf

12-31-2003, 02:13 AM

NaiadI identified with the hobbits on shore (as if I were no longer me, a mere audience member).

Perfect! I think that is the way Tolkien wrote the book, so that we would identify with Sam, and feel that loss and hope at the same time. Lovely if PJ got that right. I need to go see it again!

I have to admit that, even sobbing like a child, I'm usually thinking "...so beautiful! He's so beautiful!"

Can't remember if I've mentioned this here. When Sam and Frodo are holding each other there at the Grey Havens, Sam goes into Frodo's arms bereft, but then his bearing and focus shift slightly, like maybe he's listening to Frodo whispering a promise to him. Maybe that Sam was a Ring-bearer too, if only for a short time; when Sam has lived a full life, he may come to Valinor as well. Anyway, when he steps back he gives Frodo a little smile, and he no longer seems so grief-stricken. Have any of you seen this?

Honey!

Prim

12-31-2003, 02:54 AM

thank you for the prompt response Naiad!
I must say EW's opinion here has cast me into a (probably) brief slough of despond. I know Sam is a hero but still see Frodo as THE hero and if the actual actor fails to see this then that's a bit depressing.

I see your point Ariel (greetings, I don't feel like I've "talked" to you for a long time :) ) but still. Hmm.

I didn't see the nod, tg, but will look for it next time. I think I'm just a conservative kiwi. Every time I see someone wear their heart on their sleeve I feel like telling them : hide it! Don't be too true! The world scars those who are too honest!
I think I've admitted to this thread (or its ancestor) before I am a bit of a cynic. Even in this scene I want to see Frodo protect himself just a little.
Of course this is ridiculous since Frodo is among friends and going to a place where there is no possibility of being "too true". :rolleyes: But still. The smile disarms me and hurts at the same time.

quick edit: yes, the Isildur resonance was strong for me too. And from a thematic POV very apposite.Wonderful. In fact a lot of scenes in this movie have echoes/mirrors in the previous films. I love this history repeating itself theme. So appropriate: we learn nothing much except perhaps that we do indeed learn nothing much.

Its New Year's Eve here and I have to go. Bless you all. May 2004 be kind to you..

love Prim

whiteling

12-31-2003, 03:38 AM

Originally posted by honeyelf

Perfect! I think that is the way Tolkien wrote the book, so that we would identify with Sam, and feel that loss and hope at the same time. Lovely if PJ got that right. I need to go see it again!

I have to admit that, even sobbing like a child, I'm usually thinking "...so beautiful! He's so beautiful!"

I'm totally with you, Honeyelf!

Speaking of beauty - since I know you ladies of the Faculty are always interested in men's point of view on topics like male bonding and male perception of beauty of other men - Hubby and I viewed ROTK last week (and in about an hour we're leaving to another viewing, hooray!) and hubby was totally blown away. Yes, he did like Elijah and was used to say: "The guy looks not bad." :rolleyes: And guess what - this time he was completely enthralled by the etherical beauty of Elijah's face. Without having heard a single word of the "St Sebastian" discussions in this place he called him "Saint Frodo" - especially his dead hobbit face in Shelob's web wrap reminded him of various pictures of Saints respect. madonna-like features. Ha - now he absolutely understands "us womenfolk" being so devoted admirers of Elijah's beauty ;) !

I will spend a closer look on the Grey Havens scene and the whispering you mentioned, Honeyelf!

shadowcatshadow

12-31-2003, 03:53 AM

I find that funny. But aren't REAL Angels adrogynous.? Appealing to both Men and Women? LOL.

Maeglian

12-31-2003, 04:58 AM

First of all, let me wish you all a Very happy new year! Hope you'll all have fun tonight!

On to other matters.... :)

I am impressed with that little, subtle nod of Frodo's at the very end. Because it is Frodo nodding and saying goodbye to the *audience*, that's what it's felt like to me since the first time I saw it. Frodo, not Elijah. And it works! So, yes, tg, we've felt exactly the same there! :)

The possibility of Frodo whispering something in Sam's ear: Their embrace is certainly long enough for that, and Sam visibly alters his expression and seems to start pondering something or just plain "pull himself together". Frodo doesn't turn his head any, I think, but he could be whispering anyhow. Personally, I like to think that he does. That there are some private words of comfort and farewell that are just that - private - between the two of them. I know it's being speculated that he's telling Sam that Sam may eventually follow him across the sea ..... but I like that we don't know whether he says anything and what he says - it's a secret. It's just so right!

Naiad, yes, the quote is from Boorman's "Excalibur" from 1981. It's from a scene where Arthur and his knights have vanquished all the evil and united the kingdom, and are rejoicing together under a night-starry sky. It's a beautiful, evocative scene. And in steps Nicol William's great Merlin, like a voice of reason, doom, and dark prophecy, and tells them that: "Be silent, be still, that's it. And look upon this moment. Savor it. Rejoice with great gladness, great gladness. Remember it always, for you are joined by it, you are one under the stars! Remember it well then, this night, this great victory. So that in the years ahead you can say, 'I was there that night, with Arthur the King!' For it is the doom of men that they forget."

This isn't as off topic as it might have been, - because Boorman actually made "Excalibur" after he had to give up his plans for filming LotR. Excalibur demonstrates why that was fortunate, - the costumes and the battle scenes in the film are good, I suppose, but you can see very clearly that there are 10 people or so fighting on each side. This was looong before Weta's current level of special effects, and before "massive" could create those very real-looking huge armies!

And Boorman planned to get around the hobbit height problem by using 10-year old boys in the hobbit roles! :eek: A 10-year old playing the complex role of Frodo! Instead, 20 years later, we got a 19-year old doing the role to perfection, and "That has made all the difference!" At least, to me!

(((Faculty)))

deluby

12-31-2003, 05:08 AM

Have a great New Year's Eve everyone!!

ainon wrote:
As for the 'FYC Elijah Wood - Best Actor' ad, since we're certain that New Line is pushing him, his ads should appear any day now.
Oh they've already done it. They put it out the day before ROTK's release. It was the very first ROTK FYC ad for acting category. And they published a supporting one for Sir Ian the next day.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/311203-FYCelijah3.jpg

It's interesting that NL were pushing both Elijah and Viggo in Best Actor category at first then later dropped Viggo, and few days after Viggo appeared in Supporting category along with Sir Ian, Sean and Andy. I hope they've made up their mind. IIRC we only had one FYC ad for Elijah during FOTR's run and that was for Supporting. Since Oscar nomination ballots were mailed out yesterday I hope we'll see more campaign ads for him soon.

Blossom! GREAT gif!! :k
I upload mine to LycosUK website space instead of image albums because it doesn't have a limit on individual file size. Unfortunately I just found out that my LycosUK account has been deleted, again with no reason. :rolleyes: I guess it might have something to do with those gifs I posted last time, maybe Lycos has a new limit on traffic now but I haven't found any mention of it on their site. Oh well I guess I shouldn't complain since it's free service after all. I'm trying to get a new one and I'll probably post future gifs in small version and upload bigger ones as a zip file, that should meet their bandwidth limit.

Originally posted by Prim
I must say that EW's Dark Lord look is very very sinister. I would love to see it aloingside his goodbye smile at the havens.

Here it is, I can't believe how amazing he is:

spoilers

Crack of Doom and Grey Haven comparison (http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/311203-codhaven.jpg)

By the way, are we still labelling spoilers and avoiding direct images? :confused:

Tg, that little nod at the end!! I saw it too! Noticed it during the third viewing and I thought I read too much into it but there was defenitely something different. I looked through screencaps I did for that Grey Haven Smile gif but couldn't get a single one that would show it. :o

Maeglian

12-31-2003, 05:28 AM

MEMO

To: New Line Exec's

From: Maeglian

Copy to: Faculty at KD

Dear Sirs,

Let me start with thanking you sincerely for having realized that Elijah Wood deserves your full backing as a "Best Actor" candidate for the Oscars. This is entirely in line with my own view, as well as that of many others. I hardly need go into the many reasons, nor discuss the effect of Mr. Wood's role on the audience, nor mention specific examples of Mr. Wood's acting that qualifies him for this. As you are aware, such a list would at a bare minimum equal the length of the LotR script.

However, having seen your recent "For Your Consideration" ad, I think there is still some room for improvement in this area, particularly in your choice of photo(s) following your ad. Should you at all be interested, I would therefore be more than willing to suggest alternatives that could be used to good effect. This is a matter that I have given considerable thought to already. Should you alternatively require an enthusiastic and interested person's second opinions on any further FYC ads concerning Mr. Wood that you plan to publish, I would likewise be delighted to hear from you, and you may be assured my very prompt attention in this matter.

Until such time, I offer my very best wishes for RotK success at the Oscars, both when it comes to nominations and actual awards.

Yours truly,

Thank you Deluby! :)

Obviously I'm not all that thrilled about the photo they chose - It's OK, but nothing more....

And we are free to use pictures and we need not label spoilers anymore. The mods have given their go-ahead for that. :)

Ariel

12-31-2003, 05:51 AM

Ooo, nice post, Mel...

And Prim (yes, ever the lurker me... wait till work picks up and I will disappear again... *sigh*) - I agree about that last smile. Everyone else I talked to loved it so much but something about it just struck me as odd at first. I thought it was because it was because he looked so young when smiling like that and then I realized it was because it was a very 'honest' smile - the kind that you can't help smiling back to. Really... try! It's hard. I'm still not convinced 'my' Frodo would smile that charmingly - but I am pleased that Elijah can. Is it any wonder he wins the hearts of all who work with him?

As for the little nod thingy as he's turning away - I saw it clearly first viewing (I was very observant that time and have become less so with subsequent ones... weird, eh?) and to me it was to his companions and said 'Don't worry, I'll be alright.' - sort of a lifting of the sorrows for a moment - though I am not sure if that makes sense. In that little nod, he lets them know that this is his choice and he is glad to make it and that he knows they will be alright in the end too.

Or perhaps I am reading far too much in one little nuance of a nod. :p

Ariel

tgshaw

12-31-2003, 08:39 AM

Ariel's linking of "young" and "honest" in regard to that last smile helped with another confusion I've had with it. At first I thought, "They filmed the Grey Havens early on, so Elijah really would have been younger at that point." But then realized he doesn't look that young in the rest of the scene. And, if anything, that final smile would have been filmed later than the rest of the scene, because the intent in shooting the Havens early was to get all of Ian Holms's scenes finished. So it's very, very unlikely there's any chronological youth affecting the look of that smile--"just" acting, lighting, makeup, or whatever other magic they had available. But I think it certainly gives Frodo a look of openness (honesty) and innocence. At first, I typed his "original" innocence, but that's not really right, is it?

I feel compelled to defend Elijah a bit by putting that "Sam's the real hero" statement in context. It was in a joint interview with Sean (at ComicCon, IIRC). Sean said Frodo was the real hero, and Elijah said Sam was the real hero. I believe that at the time we had a fair amount of discussion here about how perfectly "right" that was, since the characters they played would have said exactly the same thing--and they were sitting right next to each other. :)

Originally posted by Maeglian
..... but I like that we don't know whether he says anything and what he says - it's a secret. It's just so right!
Yes... and very "Tolkienish" IMO. Tolkien doesn't keep that particular moment secret (although, as in the voice-over in the movie, I suspect there was a written message for Sam in the Red Book--or on the mantelpiece in the envelope with Frodo's will and the deed to Bag End ;) ), but he does so for some other highly emotional meetings and partings. This is one of those things that, IMHO, "works" whether the people involved "meant" it or not.

This isn't as off topic as it might have been, - because Boorman actually made "Excalibur" after he had to give up his plans for filming LotR. Excalibur demonstrates why that was fortunate...
Besides the things you listed--
Although I like Excalibur a lot, partly because it's truer than most Arthurian movies to the times of the historical man who "morphed" into Arthur, IMHO it still has quite a bit of a fantasy flavor to it (imagine actually fighting in Mordred's armor!). I'm not sure Boorman would have gone as far as PJ did in approaching it as history rather than fantasy, which, to my mind, is the only way to even begin to do LotR any kind of justice.

tata bolger

12-31-2003, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Ariel
I agree about that last smile. Everyone else I talked to loved it so much but something about it just struck me as odd at first. I thought it was because it was because he looked so young when smiling like that and then I realized it was because it was a very 'honest' smile - the kind that you can't help smiling back to. Really... try! It's hard. I'm still not convinced 'my' Frodo would smile that charmingly

You, too?! Prim, Tg, Ariel, same here. I did not somehow "get" the smile on my first viewing, just as you say I also wanted to blink through it.:confused: Thought about a bit, and came up to the conclusion that PJ deliberately wanted to show that Frodo is going to find healing, that the innocence of his soul will return. Yet, this is not my Grey Havens, not my Frodo at that moment. If I were a director, I'd cut the film at the moment right before Frodo smiles, actually just as he starts to smile. There is no joy, but only hope. I guess PJ is too optimistic IMHO.

before the smile (http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid94/pbd280036f96ff3945abd91779c2b7680/fa357b38.jpg.orig.jpg)

As for the little nod thingy as he's turning away - In that little nod, he lets them know that this is his choice and he is glad to make it and that he knows they will be alright in the end too.

I love the nod, too!! it is not an accident! And your explanation is perfect, and I thought almost the same thing!

I wonder how much of those little things in EW's performance is PJ's direction, and how much of it is actor's input.

quicksilver

12-31-2003, 10:04 AM

Delurking here to add a "me too " about Frolijah's GH smile.
The first time I saw the film I thought "My... thats so cheesy and false looking " :eek:
Mind you I wasnt too sure about some other Frodo and Sam bits either on first viewing. I enjoyed them second time around though, but I still have trouble with that smile. Seems forced to me. Not like that lovely smile and laugh he gives when waking up and seeing Gandalf in Minas Tirith. All MHO of course.

Tata, your link doesnt work for me but I agree that "my" Frodo would have looked more sad and wistful at leaving ME and his friends. But then I love Angsty!Frodo, which Elijah does to heatbreaking perfection. And for the majority of all three films too!

I also agree with TG ,Elijah seems to turn his head slightly before making that nod and seemed to me to be focusing on the audience rather than the hobbits. I loved that bit! Sort of "Thanks for coming on this journey with me, and sticking it out to the bitter end"

ainon

12-31-2003, 10:05 AM

HAPPY NEW YEAR!

Deluby, thank you for your pics! And, Maeg, LOL re: your letter to NewLine. Clearly these executives are still lacking proper angst appreciative awareness - this despite Fran Walsh and Philippa Boyens doing everything to push angst to the forefront. Tsk. :p :D

And wouldn't you know it, I'm thinking of the 'I remember the Shire' scene too for Oscar screening. It'll be out of context enough to not qualify as spoilering, I reckon. Another great scene would be Frodo's moment with the Ring at CoD, as Sam is telling him to destroy it. Don't let it play to the end. Just that bit with the changing expressions on his face, the lighting of that scene, the whole atmosphere - it's just the kind of scene snippet to show off, y'know?

Originally posted by tgshaw
I feel compelled to defend Elijah a bit by putting that "Sam's the real hero" statement in context. It was in a joint interview with Sean (at ComicCon, IIRC). Sean said Frodo was the real hero, and Elijah said Sam was the real hero. I believe that at the time we had a fair amount of discussion here about how perfectly "right" that was, since the characters they played would have said exactly the same thing--and they were sitting right next to each other. :)

Thank, tg, for naming the source of the quote. I knew it was being taken out of context but couldn't remember what the real deal had been. ;)

Btw, going back a couple of pages when the talk had been about why can't two guys be close friends and show it, there's an interview with Philippa Boyens where she comments on that in LOTR.

excerpt from article at villagevoice.com/issues/0353/sinagra2.php

Despite what many a Web scribe has made of the films' exquisite boy-on-boy physicality, Boyens doesn't see the saga as homoerotic. "I think it is really in a pure sense simply about love between men," she says. "Like with Frodo and Sam, it's about two people really loving each other as friends. And that sometimes does happen."

Also at TORn was an interview with Billy Boyd (http://www.xpressmag.com.au/interviews/Stories/880interview.htm), and it's not enough that I already have a huge crush on him, he went and said something that endeared him to me all the more. ;)

" ... why I didn't go and read The Lord Of The Rings was I started to read it and it was about this guy Frodo and I wanted to read more about Bilbo _ this is the character I got to love, so I never read it."

See, that almost happened to me. I was a kid who really loved Bilbo, and I was this close to not wanting to read LOTR because fer cryin' out loud, why should I care about this Frodo fellow when Bilbo's grown old and isn't in the story anymore?!

Thank God I persevered and read through that first half of 'Fellowship' anyway ... after which I was well and truly hooked. Although I was close to being derailed by the Council of Elrond chapter. :p

Well, since spoiler ban has been lifted. :)

http://home.ripway.com/2003-7/13204/tasteofstrawberries.jpg

(((Faculty)))

Flourish

12-31-2003, 01:19 PM

Well, I know there is not a chance in heck that I will be able to actually ask a question at the Q&A following the big trilogy showing in New York next weekend (is anyone else from here going to be there??)--but since the cast and crew in attendance include Elijah of course (as well as Viggo, Sean Bean, Andy Serkis, and Peter Jackson), I thought I'd at least want to carry with me any questions that any of you may have--just in case!;)

I'm taking my camera, but there will be 1100 other people there so wish me luck! It's the 10th, plenty of time to get ready...:cool:

Edited to correct the date, sheesh!:p

Ariel

12-31-2003, 01:46 PM

Originally posted by tgshaw
I feel compelled to defend Elijah a bit by putting that "Sam's the real hero" statement in context. It was in a joint interview with Sean (at ComicCon, IIRC). Sean said Frodo was the real hero, and Elijah said Sam was the real hero. I believe that at the time we had a fair amount of discussion here about how perfectly "right" that was, since the characters they played would have said exactly the same thing--and they were sitting right next to each other. :)
I recall that report and thought it was quite charming... however, and perhaps someone else can recall which recent interview it was, SA was quoted as saying that 'Sam was the real hero' in one of the prepress releases that came out just before ROTK. He later qualified this by saying in another interview that 'Sam wasn't anything except in relationship to Frodo' but IMHO, the first response he made was in poor taste.

Do I blame SA for liking his character? No. But I do think that saying that statement as a representative of the film in a pre-release interview made me FAR less impressed with SA as a person.

I couldn't see EW ever saying something like that.

Flourish - I will hopefully be there too. I have one or two questions but with that many people, I am certain someone else will ask something similar to mine anyway. I, too, would be very curious to see what the brains of the Faculty could think to ask.

Ariel

erendis

12-31-2003, 02:15 PM

The first thing that struck me about Frodo's last smile is that it's one of those where he doesn't show his teeth. Usually when he starts smiling without showing his teeth, he's thinking aoubt breaking into that witch-cackle laugh (like his amusement in the chop-chop group photo at the Council). But in his Last Smile he has no intention of doing laughing.

Ioretthdttr observed that they linger on his face for a long time, and indeed they do. I counted a 7-second linger, and an additional 3-second linger, just before the Last Nod. That's a LONG time to focus on someone's face.

I think the best part of GH for me is listening to Elijah's delievery of "the last pages are for you Sam." He slows WAY down. I don't know if he's trying to convey that if he suddenly picked up the Elvish slow-speak, a la Galadriel/Celeborn, or if his battery is running low, but it's effective.

shilohmm

12-31-2003, 07:13 PM

I had all manner of things I was going to respond to, but most of them amounted to "yes, exactly!" with a few "brilliant observations!" for variety, but I feel scungy so I'm just going to bed. But first I wanted to say;

Happy New Year!

Brought you some black-eyed pea chili - was looking for black-eyed peas and greens and the whole traditional meal but had no luck. :( Lots of cool Chinese New Year meals, but it's the wrong time for those. ;)

http://i.ivillage.com/finder/recipes/11chre16.jpg

And, if you're lurking...

Happy Birthday, Tathar!

http://www.yourfairytale.com/graphics/cake2s.jpg

Sheryl

deluby

12-31-2003, 09:09 PM

Originally posted by erendis
Ioretthdttr observed that they linger on his face for a long time, and indeed they do. I counted a 7-second linger, and an additional 3-second linger, just before the Last Nod. That's a LONG time to focus on someone's face.
Does that Last Nod scene remind anybody of the lament scene outside of Moria? While I was doing the gif sequence I kept thinking that I've done something similar before and as I was going through old gifs I saw the Moria grief scene, that's when it clicked. Both of them start with Frodo's back towards the camera then as he turns to face us the camera zooms up to his face and lingers for a while. Except that outside moria after he stopped walking and turned to us he stayed with us but this time after nodding to us he kept going. :( ::sniff::

Since we are OK to post spoiler images now here are some screencaps from the behind scene special aired in UK a few weeks ago. I wonder why it wasn't aired in US. Interesting that almost all the scenes they showed were cut out of the final theatrical version. Wouldn't it be weird that people saw the special and got excited hoping to see those in the film and later found out that none of them are in it? :confused:

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest03.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest06.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest07.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest08.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest11.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest12.jpg

http://members.lycos.co.uk/duckcc/quest13.jpg

esmeraldabrandybuck

01-01-2004, 02:34 AM

http://overthebrandywine.com/Frodo/faculty04.jpg

Happy New Year to the Faculty!

Ooo deluby, nice pictures. :)

Maeglian

01-01-2004, 05:17 AM

Happy new year, Faculty! :)

Oh, Deluby, those pictures are wonderful! Now I'm really, really pining for *more* F&S Mordor angst. What we got was lovely and absolutely heart-wrenching, but.... knowing that much more was filmed.... I WANT IT ALL!

:rolleyes: :o

I can just hear PJ mumbling: "Ungrateful wretch!"

One thing I'm wondering is if a scene was filmed where we see Frodo getting that wound on his lower right cheek that features so prominently in all the late Mordor pictures (and in the Poster). It looks to be new, and bleeding in those pictures Deluby posted.

(Hope I'm not grossing anyone out too much, wondering about that!)

And....

Spoiler for EE DVD

I was very happy to see Sean Astin confirm that the scene where Sam leaves the pots and pans behind was filmed. I mean, of course it *had* to be, since the films put so much emphasis on them, but *knowing* that it was is something else!

End EE spoiler

Flourish, thank you for asking about the questions! :) (We had a long list of questions (Who has it - Sheryl?) but that was directed at Elijah Wood in general and certainly not RotK, so most of those would not fit at all. )

I know several of the Haremites are also going. Meryl Marie and Hewene, among them. And Ariel, you lucky person! How I envy you all!

I'm absolutely sure we have questions! It's just - my head is a bit muddled right now (can't imagine why :o )- I'll have to think about it and post them a little later. Hope that's OK. Hopefully someone else comes along and posts some really good questions in the meantime.

ainon - you have me stumped! I'm not entirely certain I can place your picture, angsty though it is..... Is it just before Frodo sits up to comfort Sam at the End of all things?

From Ariel
In that little nod, he lets them know that this is his choice and he is glad to make it and that he knows they will be alright in the end too. Wonderful! I think that's it - I'll be viewing that little nod with more understanding. Thank you!

tgshaw

01-01-2004, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by deluby
Does that Last Nod scene remind anybody of the lament scene outside of Moria? While I was doing the gif sequence I kept thinking that I've done something similar before and as I was going through old gifs I saw the Moria grief scene, that's when it clicked. Both of them start with Frodo's back towards the camera then as he turns to face us the camera zooms up to his face and lingers for a while. Except that outside moria after he stopped walking and turned to us he stayed with us but this time after nodding to us he kept going. ::sniff::
Oh, definitely!! In both of them, he ends up looking at us. And IMHO, that's emphasized all the more by the fact that he's not facing directly into the camera, so has to shift his eyes off-center to do it (in both shots)--it's not an accidental side-effect of facing the camera.

The shots are also set up somewhat the same, but the first thing that struck me was that direct gaze. In both cases intimate, open and "naked."

whiteling

01-01-2004, 07:47 AM

A HAPPY NEW YEAR, EVERYONE!

Deluby, many thanks for the pictures! Am I right, they are from "The Quest fullfilled - A director's vision"? This documentary was aired here just yesterday and it was lovely!

Anyway, our TV channels are very kind to EW fans currently: several Elwood films has been aired lately. The Faculty, Ice Storm, Huckleberry Finn, Flipper (what was THAT? *pondering silence* -- at least he wore nice t-shirts and sometimes no shirts at all :D !), we'll get to see Chain of Fools and so on. Needless to say that I'm over the moon :) !

From Maeglian:
A question about art references: There are 2 times that some "art memory" or -reference strongly tickles my mind, but I can't quite recall what I'm being reminded of.

I had the same strange feeling but, alas, it didn't ring the bell :confused: - there are some moments I was strongly reminded of various works of art. The forging of Narsil made me think of Wagner's "Ring des Nibelungen" - "Siegfried" forging his sword "Nothung", Faramir carried on the bier looks like a part of "Götterdämmerung"... And I'd say, there is a certain resemblance between the Grey Havens and this painting:

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/0903/whiteling/le_lorrain.jpg
It is from the French painter Claude Lorrain (1600-1682). He painted many of these "heroic landscapes".

Flourish - wonderful of you to ask for questions! :) *brood brood*

ainon

01-01-2004, 09:45 AM

Deluby ... ooh! Thank you! :k Beautiful pics! I missed that show when it aired on TV here. :( My one consolation is that it'll be included in the TV DVD, but that'll be months away!

Howdy there, Esmeraldabrandybuck - it's always great to see you delurking here once in a while! ;) And Happy Birthday, Tathar. :)

Maeg, geez, woman. How could you not know that that's Frodo looking up at Sam as Sam's talking about the barley in the fields and the taste of strawberries? Only the most incredible moment of created adapted angst ever. Oh, okay, yeah, the quality of the cap does suck. I'm yet to develop talent for making screencaps look better. :)

Anyway, on this first day of the year 2004, I picked these up from TORn. :cool:

RotK Best Acting by Ensemble (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/orig/11636_orig.jpg)

FYC ad: Best Adapted Screenplay (http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/orig/11633_orig.jpg)

http://img-nex.theonering.net/images/scrapbook/11632.jpg

Whiteling, enjoy your ElijahFest!

Flourish, Ariel, et al who're gonna see Elijah & co in the flesh ... I am soooooooo jealous! :k

Lady Wendy

01-01-2004, 12:08 PM

Hello to all you Faculty Lounge ladies...
( and a definite hello to Honeyelf, who I recognise from Tolkien Online !! )

I got directed here through a link from TORC, and I like what I see :D :D :D...May I stay if I supply some of my homemade Devil's food-cake ??

I am a big Tolkien fan, ever since I saw FOTR at the cinema, three years ago, and decided to read the book...finally !! What IS amazing is that it's taken me SOOOOO long to arrive at this point...after all, LOTR was required reading at the Art School I attended, in the late seventies, and I was very into Science Fiction at the time...still am really !...and every person I knew at the Halls of Residence had a copy of LOTR on their bookshelves, ( along with " Zen and the Art of Motor-cycle Maintenance" and "Supernature" by Dr. Lyall Watson - now, I'm giving away my age here methinks, but to Hell with it !!!...)

Anyway, what struck me almost immediately was Elijah Wood playing the part of Frodo...at the opening credit sequences from FOTR, when he gets to his feet from under the tree, turns to camera with that quizzical look on his face and then breaks into that gleeful smile...well, I was a lost cause from then on.... :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

...and THEN, when I learned that this beautiful boy was actually American, you could have knocked me down with a feather....this had just NOT been within my reckoning at all...his British accent was SO perfect that I never suspected a thing...

This is what I think about the campaign for Oscar glory, re: Elijah...

The other actors in the Fellowship gave sterling performances throughout the Trilogy, but, to my mind anyway, Elijah certainly nailed the steadily more tortured character of Frodo as the Trilogy moved along, and we were never in any doubt as to what he was feeling every time the camera was on him...this is a rare gift indeed...
Someone on TORC posted an article about Elijah's performance where it was suggested that he may have done an in-depth study of Jimmy Stewart's performance in Rear Window....the same ability to convey SO much with just a look...

Frodo's story is the one with the hardest challenges and most far-reaching changes in it, and in the end, he loses the most, in return for his selflessness and bravery...it takes an actor of rare talent to portray this with integrity and truth, and I think that Elijah does just that...
If he was wrong for the part, or was, indeed, anything less than perfect, the whole Trilogy would fall...

And we would not have the perfect Trilogy we have now...

And that would be a Terrible Shame, don't you think ???

Have a Happy New Year, and I look forward to many a good Frodo discussion and maybe the odd ( very ! ) party...( ask Honeyelf about those !!! :D )

Rikka

01-01-2004, 01:40 PM

(((Dear Faculty ladies!)))
My best wishes to all of you in the New Year! Many kisses! I love you all. And I'm very glad to know all of you like the 3d movie.

P.S. I'm still waiting my first ROTK viewing. More 22 days to wait.

But I gave a look to some spoiler pics (I'm not afraid of spoilers). All the pics are absolutely great... but that "last smile" one. :( I'm sorry to say this, but... Frodo looks there like a pink cherub from a cheap X-mas post-card. Definetely not my Frodo from GH. I'm a bit frightened! I hope the impression of it in a theatre will be a bit better... Otherwise I'll have to close my eyes at this moment at every viewing. ;)

honeyelf

01-01-2004, 02:53 PM

Deluby, thank you for those wonderful pictues! Surely that will be in the EE DVD? Honey! checks her brand new calendar; only 11 months to go!

Whiteling, your Grey Havens "alike" picture is very reminenscent of RoTK GH isn't it? I really loved the movie GH because it is 'quoted' from one of my fav LoTR artworks. It is a personal favorite not because of it's slight kitschyness, but because of the central figures of Frodo and Sam. You've no doubt which is which, and that Frodo is trying to comfort Sam, and leave him with hope. I'll include it here as an attachment. The picture is HUGE, so it'll take some scrolling. If I had two brain cells to rub together at the moment I could tell you who it's by. Anyone help me out here? Michael Nasmith? For some reason that seems right.

Hullo, Wendy! You've come to join the rest of us Lij obsessors at last! :D

Well, off in a bit to see "Peter Pan" with my family. BTW, is there truth to the rumor that Elijah was the one they originally wanted for the role? He would have made such a beautiful Peter!

Honey!

honeyelf

01-01-2004, 03:15 PM

Breaking protocol here. Apologies, it seems my attachment got eaten. Trying again.

Bridget Chubb

01-01-2004, 04:14 PM

That picture's by Ted Nasmith, Honey - I absolutely love it too.:)

Here's his website:

http://tednasmith.com/main.html

Hobmom

01-01-2004, 05:01 PM

I found this article from a Swedish magazine where fans got to ask Elijah the questions....

"Hi Elijah, you are so f*cking cute, dyou know that? You win easily over Orli! /Kristina

- O God, really! Im shocked, I win over the elf!? Im speechless, its really flattering.

How do you know the Osbourne family, Ive seen you in an episode. Whats the weirdest thing thats ever happened to you while being there? / Micke

- I know them through my little sister Hannah, I think she went to
school with Jack for a while and became friends with Kelly. The craziest thats happened when Ive been there is probably just when one of their dogs either pooed or peed on something, theres a lot of that.

What was the coolest during the LotR shooting? Didnt you ever feel like you wanted to be a warrior rather than a hobbit? /Erik

- Thats a good question. No, I was pretty content with playing a
hobbit. Of course I missed a lot of fight scenes, there was an entire sequence in Helms Deep that I wish Id been in. It was probably an amazing experience for everyone involved. On the other hand, there were two or three months of night-time filming, so people were pretty exhausted towards the end.

Do you have a girlfriend? /Diana Taki

- Sadly enough Im single.

Hi, is it true that you were an extra in Back to the future 2? Vas it cool to meet Michael J Fox? /Anna

- Yep. It was very cool and one of my first appearances in a real film. I was very excited about suddenly being on the site of the shooting after seeing the first film. Im playing a guy whos trying to figure out how an 80s videogame works and Michael J Fox comes up to me and my friend and show us how its done. It was awesome, I was a big fan of Micheal J Fox and he was übercool.

Ive heard that you were on a Sahara Hotnights-gig [Swedish all girl rock band] in the USA. What do you think of them? /Magnus

- O yeah, yeah yeah yeah yeah. Thats right, theyre from Sweden. Theyre really cool, the singer in the band is really hot, Ive got a crush on her. But isnt she dating Pelle fromThe Hives? She isOh wellTell her I say hi and send her a kiss. Sahara Hotnights are great and I love The Hives too.
They play exciting, old school rocknroll. And both bands do it really well.

In the extras to the FotR DVD theres a lot of talk about you
terrorising Ian McKellen with loud music, and then theres talk about you liking music so much. But what kind of music? /Erika

- I love everything, so many different bands, so many different genres, old and new music. Rock, pop, country, dance, blues, jazz. Much of what we listened to when we were in New Zealand were The Stone Roses, andgod what more did we listen a lot toTravis album The Man Who, Sigur Rós, Grandaddys Sophtware Slump, Radioheads Kid A, plus a lot of old soul like Sly and the Family Stone and lots of dj-stuff like DJ Shadow.

Do you have hair on your own toes? /Tomas

- Yes, I have a little hair on my toes and some ontop of my feet too.

There are a lot of weird people in black coats and such, who like
fantasy and particularly Tolkien. Do you see them a lot? /Stefan

- Yeah, theyre everywhere, Im going to an event called
Collectormania, which is in London and write autographs for three days, so I spend a lot of time with them. But I dont know, I like them, I understand where theyre coming from because Im a fan too. I appreciate the almost insane worshipping/obsessing, I dont think Im gonna be part of anything like it in my career.

Do you care about politics? What do you think about your country trying to rule the world? /Karin

- Yes and no, a person whos aware of whats happening in the world today, has to care. But at the same time I get really frustrated with politics as well, especially my own countrys. Im not in on some choices thats been made, like the war in Iraq. I have problems with our entire political system and Im not with any political party, so therefore I dont spend that much
time on politics either.

Have you ever done drugs? /Polly

- Ohhh, how do you get around that questionIve experienced things that I probably wont experience again, to answer vaguely. Im kind of like those people who think things should be experienced in life, but I also know how I want to live my life and what I dont want. Uhmm, yeah."